Perhaps Henry Scudder is a good guy?
rto...@aol.com
Henry was born, his mother killed her husband and other sons (who were
founders/members of the KKK) and scratched her eyes out.)
Does Henry Scudder have a tatoo of a tree on him? Isn't the man with
the tatoo, the current usher?
Management set Ben up to kill the professor, He owns a carnival filled
with con-men, whores, pickpockets and theifs.
If killing Scudder is the only way to save the world, then why is
Justin also trying to kill him?
I think that we will find out that henry scudder is not the evil one
but management is.
or not
Ted
"rto...@aol.com" wrote:
>
> Henry Scudder saved Bens life toward the end of the first series. When
> Henry was born, his mother killed her husband and other sons (who were
> founders/members of the KKK) and scratched her eyes out.)
>
> Does Henry Scudder have a tatoo of a tree on him?
Not that we've seen.
Isn't the man with
> the tatoo, the current usher?
>
> Management set Ben up to kill the professor, He owns a carnival filled
> with con-men, whores, pickpockets and theifs.
I before e, and the pluralization is aberrant.
>
> If killing Scudder is the only way to save the world, then why is
> Justin also trying to kill him?
Justin wants to kill Scudder to gain the divine blood.
>
> I think that we will find out that henry scudder is not the evil one
> but management is.
>
> or not
The basic implication has always been that Scudder was the better one;
Management was hunting him, and we had seen nothing bad about him. Then
Scudder killed all of Babylon, of course, but apparently in self defense
(and possibly for a better reason). Management has never shown anything
other than self interest except in how he has exposed his supposed
reasons to Ben.
rto...@aol.com
When
> Henry was born, his mother killed her husband and other sons (who
were
> founders/members of the KKK) and scratched her eyes out.)
> Does Henry Scudder have a tatoo of a tree on him?
Not that we've seen.
Isn't the man with
> the tatoo, the current usher?
If so, how can scudder be the usher?
> Management set Ben up to kill the professor, He owns a carnival
filled
> with con-men, whores, pickpockets and theifs.
I before e, and the pluralization is aberrant.
Thank you for pointing that out to the group and myself.
(or is it the group and I)
> If killing Scudder is the only way to save the world, then why is
> Justin also trying to kill him?
Justin wants to kill Scudder to gain the divine blood.
So if Ben Kills Scudder, is the implication that the blood lines ends
or that ben gets the divine blood?
> I think that we will find out that henry scudder is not the evil one
> but management is.
> or not
The basic implication has always been that Scudder was the better one;
Management was hunting him, and we had seen nothing bad about him. Then
Scudder killed all of Babylon, of course, but apparently in self
defense
(and possibly for a better reason). Management has never shown anything
other than self interest except in how he has exposed his supposed
reasons to Ben.
I remember babylon, When was it implied that Scudder killed the whole
town? Was it in the dream sequence where Ben wakes up in the mine?
Andy Katz
>
>
>"rto...@aol.com" wrote:
>>
>> Henry Scudder saved Bens life toward the end of the first series. When
>> Henry was born, his mother killed her husband and other sons (who were
>> founders/members of the KKK) and scratched her eyes out.)
>>
>> Does Henry Scudder have a tatoo of a tree on him?
>
>Not that we've seen.
Right. Matter of fact, Scudder is very powerful. He heals, sends
visions, receives them, can cause the death of hundreds at a time,
seems to know all the players and what they're up to. Even if Ben or
Justin or Sophie should prove to have more latent power, they're a
ways from developing it. Witness Justin's shock and apprehension at
the magical mask. He's also worked deep in the earth, fought in
history's deadliest war to date, inspired terror in some who knew him
rather casually.
Yet . . . Scudder is potrayed in the first images after Samson's
monologue as running like merry hell from the tattooed man,
Here's a guy who shouldn't be afraid of anyone or anything. Yet
clearly he is.
So I should be very surprised to see him sporting a similar tattoo.
>>Isn't the man with
>> the tatoo, the current usher?
Yes. Management may be fibbing about this and that, but his shock at
learning of the usher's existence seemed real.
>>
>> Management set Ben up to kill the professor, He owns a carnival filled
>> with con-men, whores, pickpockets and theifs.
>
>I before e, and the pluralization is aberrant.
>>
>> If killing Scudder is the only way to save the world, then why is
>> Justin also trying to kill him?
>
>Justin wants to kill Scudder to gain the divine blood.
Well stated. Justin has barely begun to explore his powers as a
prophet and/or dark one, yet he hankers to become the usher, while
management fears its very existence bodes inevitable catastrophe.
Clearly the usher is on a different level from any other character
however potent his or her powers.
>>
>> I think that we will find out that henry scudder is not the evil one
>> but management is.
>>
>> or not
>
>The basic implication has always been that Scudder was the better one;
>Management was hunting him, and we had seen nothing bad about him. Then
>Scudder killed all of Babylon, of course, but apparently in self defense
>(and possibly for a better reason). Management has never shown anything
>other than self interest except in how he has exposed his supposed
>reasons to Ben.
Right. Even in the casting. John Savage presents a more nuanced,
thoughtful mien contrasted with Clancy Brown's more forceful,
dominating persona.
I honestly don't know if Scudder is the dark one seeking to escape his
destiny .... it makes Samson's description ackward, but I do think Ben
is good, and Scudder clearly intends that Ben find him.
Over on the HBO msg board someone suggested that Scudder is the
prophet diminished by his wounds turning to the next in the generation
of light (Ben) . . .
Time will tell.
I hope . . . . .
Andy Katz
***************************************************************
Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.
Paghat, the Rat Girl
Bill Anderson
<rto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107989314.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Management set Ben up to kill the professor, He owns a carnival
> filled
> > with con-men, whores, pickpockets and theifs.
>
>
>
> I before e, and the pluralization is aberrant.
>
> Thank you for pointing that out to the group and myself.
> (or is it the group and I)
>
>
As you are part of the group, a simple, concise response could have been,
"Thank you for pointing that out." However, if you really wanted to
distinguish between yourself and the group, you could have written, "Thank
you for pointing that out to the group and me." You certainly wouldn't have
wanted to write, "Thank you for pointing that out to the group and I." Why
not? Because you wouldn't write, "Thank you for pointing that out to I,"
would you? Certainly not. You would write, "Thank you for pointing that
out to me." That's why you would properly write, "Thank you for pointing
that out to the group and me." See?
You're welcome. (Not, "Your welcome.")
--
Bill Anderson
I am the Mighty Pedantic Favog
jberger
news:36vnlbF...@individual.net...
> As you are part of the group, a simple, concise response could have been,
> "Thank you for pointing that out." However, if you really wanted to
> distinguish between yourself and the group, you could have written, "Thank
> you for pointing that out to the group and me." You certainly wouldn't
> have
> wanted to write, "Thank you for pointing that out to the group and I."
> Why
> not? Because you wouldn't write, "Thank you for pointing that out to I,"
> would you? Certainly not. You would write, "Thank you for pointing that
> out to me." That's why you would properly write, "Thank you for pointing
> that out to the group and me." See?
>
> You're welcome. (Not, "Your welcome.")
I'd like to say "thank you" on behalf of the group and ourselves and I hope
we passed the audition!
Bill Anderson
"jberger" <jbe...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:36vr1rF...@individual.net...
Hey, Jude!
--
Bill Anderson
I am the Mighty Old Favog
Ted
"rto...@aol.com" wrote:
snip
> If so, how can scudder be the usher?
He's not.
snip
> So if Ben Kills Scudder, is the implication that the blood lines ends
> or that ben gets the divine blood?
It's unclear what it means, but I don't think either thing you said
makes sense. Ben isn't supposed to kill Scudder. Ben is supposed to kill
Justin. Justin is supposed to kill Scudder. Justin gets the divine blood
(i.e. become the Usher) if he does so. It's unclear if that would happen
for Ben if he killed Justin.
snip
> I remember babylon, When was it implied that Scudder killed the whole
> town? Was it in the dream sequence where Ben wakes up in the mine?
No, the bartender says the town was coming after Scudder to kill him for
killing Carl with the pick axe. And then there was the cave in that
wiped out the whole company. It could have been coincidental. But with a
whole town of dead folks that keep coming back, for some reason I think
Scudder was involved.
St...@here.ca
>> So if Ben Kills Scudder, is the implication that the blood lines ends
>> or that ben gets the divine blood?
>
>It's unclear what it means, but I don't think either thing you said
>makes sense. Ben isn't supposed to kill Scudder. Ben is supposed to kill
>Justin. Justin is supposed to kill Scudder. Justin gets the divine blood
>(i.e. become the Usher) if he does so. It's unclear if that would happen
>for Ben if he killed Justin.
This seems to go back to the idea of the never ending battle between
Light and Darkness in terms of what is at stake if Darkness ever wins.
The scenario seems to be that if Darkness EVER wins then it is winner
take all. If Light wins then humanity survives for another spin of
the wheel. Ben kills Justin and he has achieved his end and the game
begins anew.
>> I remember babylon, When was it implied that Scudder killed the whole
>> town? Was it in the dream sequence where Ben wakes up in the mine?
>
>No, the bartender says the town was coming after Scudder to kill him for
>killing Carl with the pick axe. And then there was the cave in that
>wiped out the whole company. It could have been coincidental. But with a
>whole town of dead folks that keep coming back, for some reason I think
>Scudder was involved.
We know Justin has telekinesis so causing a cave in would seem more in
step with his power than Scudder. On the other hand we don't yet have
any information as to what happens to the life that is taken to give
life. Doesn't Babylon and its habitants sound an awful lot like
Purgatory?
It doesn't really make sense that the entire town, that every single
person except the bartender, was in the mine in the same area as the
cave in. There seems to be more to Babylon than just another place
for the Carnivale to visit. And again Management knows this is not a
good place to go and his gift to Dora Mae stands out as the only
"human" behaviour he has demonstrated so far, (guilt?).
S.
Ted
St...@here.ca wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:35:25 GMT, Ted <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> So if Ben Kills Scudder, is the implication that the blood lines ends
> >> or that ben gets the divine blood?
> >
> >It's unclear what it means, but I don't think either thing you said
> >makes sense. Ben isn't supposed to kill Scudder. Ben is supposed to kill
> >Justin. Justin is supposed to kill Scudder. Justin gets the divine blood
> >(i.e. become the Usher) if he does so. It's unclear if that would happen
> >for Ben if he killed Justin.
>
> This seems to go back to the idea of the never ending battle between
> Light and Darkness in terms of what is at stake if Darkness ever wins.
> The scenario seems to be that if Darkness EVER wins then it is winner
> take all. If Light wins then humanity survives for another spin of
> the wheel. Ben kills Justin and he has achieved his end and the game
> begins anew.
I think it's a cycle; life death life; life for light, death for
darkness. Or vice versa depending on the individual perspective. But
when the weapons get big enough, one side could do a much more damage.
>
> >> I remember babylon, When was it implied that Scudder killed the whole
> >> town? Was it in the dream sequence where Ben wakes up in the mine?
> >
> >No, the bartender says the town was coming after Scudder to kill him for
> >killing Carl with the pick axe. And then there was the cave in that
> >wiped out the whole company. It could have been coincidental. But with a
> >whole town of dead folks that keep coming back, for some reason I think
> >Scudder was involved.
>
> We know Justin has telekinesis so causing a cave in would seem more in
> step with his power than Scudder.
Well, we've only seen him be a teek in a distorted flashback, but I
think if you sucked the life out of 100 and some odd people, you might
set off some dynamite to make it look like something other than someone
just sucked the life out of all of them.
On the other hand we don't yet have
> any information as to what happens to the life that is taken to give
> life. Doesn't Babylon and its habitants sound an awful lot like
> Purgatory?
Nope; no punishment. Seems more like limbo. And we have seen what
happens to a life taken to give life; but only Ruthie can see him right
now, along with a bunch of other dead folks that don't seem likely to
have been killed byu our band of merry players.
>
> It doesn't really make sense that the entire town, that every single
> person except the bartender, was in the mine in the same area as the
> cave in.
They were going after Scudder; the same way that everyone was in the 10
in 1 for the bartender's number.
St...@here.ca
>> On the other hand we don't yet have
>> any information as to what happens to the life that is taken to give
>> life. Doesn't Babylon and its habitants sound an awful lot like
>> Purgatory?
>
>Nope; no punishment. Seems more like limbo. And we have seen what
>happens to a life taken to give life; but only Ruthie can see him right
>now, along with a bunch of other dead folks that don't seem likely to
>have been killed byu our band of merry players.
But Purgatory is limbo. Originally envisioned as a place to explain
where babies went when they were not yet baptized, and thus cosigned
to hell, and eventually as a middle ground where those evil in life
could pay for continued prayers to be made on their behalf thus
eventually moving them out of Purgatory (maybe even Hell and into
Purgatory) to the next step above. There are still Monastaries in
Europe that to this day perform the daily prayers based on donations
made back in the 1200-1600's.
Either way Babylon seems very much like Purgatory, an enternity of
nothing.
As per Ruthie's case, it is in fact Lodz we need ask where he is.
>> It doesn't really make sense that the entire town, that every single
>> person except the bartender, was in the mine in the same area as the
>> cave in.
>
>They were going after Scudder; the same way that everyone was in the 10
>in 1 for the bartender's number.
Yeah but the numbers are too large. Even the managers? Something
more to this.
S.
Ted
St...@here.ca wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:39:27 GMT, Ted <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> On the other hand we don't yet have
> >> any information as to what happens to the life that is taken to give
> >> life. Doesn't Babylon and its habitants sound an awful lot like
> >> Purgatory?
> >
> >Nope; no punishment. Seems more like limbo. And we have seen what
> >happens to a life taken to give life; but only Ruthie can see him right
> >now, along with a bunch of other dead folks that don't seem likely to
> >have been killed byu our band of merry players.
>
> But Purgatory is limbo. Originally envisioned as a place to explain
> where babies went when they were not yet baptized, and thus cosigned
> to hell, and eventually as a middle ground where those evil in life
> could pay for continued prayers to be made on their behalf thus
> eventually moving them out of Purgatory (maybe even Hell and into
> Purgatory) to the next step above. There are still Monastaries in
> Europe that to this day perform the daily prayers based on donations
> made back in the 1200-1600's.
snip
Limbo's the top layer of Hell; unbaptized babies and other relatively
guiltless pagans. Their only punishment is that they have no hope.
That's where Virgil hangs out, and is where Dante starts his journey.
Purgatory is for all the saved sinners to burn away their sins; it's an
entirely different book.
St...@here.ca
Nope. The whole reason for inventing Purgatory/Limbo is because it
became too unpalatable for an ever increasing educated and rebellious
population to accept that a newborn dying moments after birth which is
in essence the epitomy of innocence would wind up in Hell or forever
trapped in Limbo while a mass murderer who confesses who takes last
rites and confesses his sins on his deathbed finds his way to heaven.
Purgatory/Limbo are after an after thought, (much like the layers of
Hell), and in fact were necessary to induce hope of redemption on two
front. Hope for the innocent and hope for the evil with money that
could be donated to the Church to literally buy their into Heaven.
But let us not spend much time on this. The religion(s) all have
slight variations on that theme and I believe what is important here
is that Babylon is certainly somewhere not of this world.
bdo...@gmail.com
"On the heels of the skirmish man foolishly called The War to End All
Wars, the dark one sought to elude his destiny, and live as a mortal.
So he fled across the ocean to the empire called America. But by his
mere presence, a cancer corrupted the spirit of the land. People were
rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for
whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an
obscenity. And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy.
Until, dimished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient
line of light. And so it was that the fate of mankind came to rest on
the trembling shoulders of the most reluctant of saviors... "
Unless there's another evil avatar, this pegs Management (the Russian)
as the avatar of light, and Scudder as the avatar of evil. Of course, I
think the twists in the story come from the fact that Scudder has
shunned his destiny as a Big Bad, and in some way this is a profoundly
ethical decision. Management, as a failed prophet of light, has turned
to using questionable means to accomplish his ends.
Reasons we know Scudder was aware of his destiny and turned away from
it:
* He left his wife and Ben. Samson or Ruthie says, "That broke him,
having to leave her."
* He seems to have drawn a lot of evil sorts to him, a lot like Brother
Justin.
* His power seems to inevitably result in really Bad Things: Babylon
being a prime example.
* Sophie's tarot card reading. From the past, she sees, "A king,
turning away from his kingdom.", and then we see Scudder.
What's interesting about this is that it implies that the avatars of
good and evil aren't simply pawns in the grand struggle: they have the
ability to choose what they'll do. If you'll notice, both Brother
Justin and Ben had moments of clarity when they realized what they
were, and they had (and have) the opportunity to make a choice.
