AOQ Review 3-19: "Choices"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
(or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner
The winning team that brought us "Helpless" strikes again with a
more (directly) "plot" episode.
Hey, Buffy gets into NU! That's my alma mater. Too bad she seems
unlikely to actually include Chicago in her travel plans; otherwise we
could've been classmates, had she actually existed. This lets the
show bring up basically some of the same my-life-versus-the-world
issues we've seen before, although I guess Buffy is willing to make
more reasonable compromises than in previous life-versus-duty stories.
Too bad the situation doesn't seem willing to compromise at all. I
don't get why Buffy complains to Angel about being in a rut, given
that they went on a "normal" date just two episodes ago, but that
leads to a nice followup at the end with the picnic blanket.
I'm not quite sure whether or not Xander was serious or joking about
his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight. And Cordelia
seems unusually nasty in the early scenes. Now, as has been discussed,
Cordelia is often erratically written from week to week. My usual
reaction to hear her go "mean" after having been in "nice" mode
(except to Xander, of course) for awhile is annoyance at the
fluctuation. So what do the writers do? They have the characters
comment on it. And the viewer is thus reassured right there and then
that it's not sloppy character work, and may even be a significant
plot point. (Some people apparently don't like it when the script
throws in little "signposts" like that. Well, THEY MAKE ME HAPPY.)
And finally (on this topic), let me say: "Yale is a dumping ground
for those who didn't get into Harvard." "I got into Harvard."
Heh.
I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
specific interest that happened. Buffy takes a stab at coming up with
a plan involving strategies and maps and stuff, Willow gets kidnapped
for awhile, and we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
B/A relationship. All setup, not much action. So this review will be
short and have a lot of complaints, but it's important to remember
this about the episode: even when nothing's happening, the plot gives
the illusion of moving along, and things never get too boring.
Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain. Other
nice touches: Giles with the thermos of tea, Oz and Xander with the
diagrams. Also also, I'm going to give Dushku some credit too: Faith
is in this episode a lot, and she's always interesting to watch,
especially since I haven't yet come up with a reliable way to
"read" her. So we can ponder, say, whether she attaches any
special significance to her new toy (that would mean that leaving it
behind at the end signifies... something).
The average viewer who's me can't be expected to automatically care
about the Artifact Of +5 Evil without some motivation, some trick to
make it seem more significant than all the other supernatural stuff
that happens in the Buffyverse. "Choices" achieves mild success
with such a technique - Wilkins gets angry to the point of raising
his voice. Which he almost never does. Significance ho.
Seriously, Willow, you're not a Wiccan. You just do magic.
I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
(even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
that things are different in a universe that works according to a
Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
So is taking the pages, and so is the way she tells Giles about it.
So are we supposed to believe that there're roughly two security
people anywhere in City Hall? Most public parks are harder to move
freely in.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Selected Wilkins antics (the plastic wrap comes to mind)
- Snyder and the lunch ("Is that the new drug lingo?")
- Willow's aborted attempt to retell her confrontation with Faith
In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
several forms of idiot. It makes sense to me, though, and I think
it's a big moment for her. She's not just following Buffy, but
actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
Otherwise, yeah, more questions. What's in Faith's head? How will
Snyder react to all this? Is Cordelia getting a character-arc of her
own, so close to the end of the year? Is it Angel's turn to be the
one worrying about the future of his Slayer/Vamp relationship? Will
the season get the conclusion it deserves?
So...
One-sentence summary: Keeps things rolling, although a little lifeless
in places.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, And Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good
8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent
9) "The Wish" - Decent
10) "Amends" - Good
11) "Gingerbread" - Good
12) "Helpless" - Excellent
13) "The Zeppo" - Decent
14) "Bad Girls" - Good
15) "Consequences" - Excellent
16) "Doppelgängland" - Decent
17) "Enemies" - Good
18) "Earshot" - Decent
19) "Choices" - Good]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
> And we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
> have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
> B/A relationship.
One thing that really bugged me is that every time anyone brings up
Buffy and Angel's relationship, and where it's going in the future, they
always bring up the "he doesn't age" thing.
I have always found that to be totally irrelevant, for two reasons.
1) Face it: Buffy probably isn't going to grow old with anyone. The
chances of a Slayer growing old are slim to none. She's already died
once.
2) Angel's odds aren't much better. Sure, a vampire that spends all
its time brooding can live a long time, but as soon as he decided to
throw his hat into the hero business, his life expectancy became about
the same as Buffy's.
>
> I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
> box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
> (even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
> that things are different in a universe that works according to a
> Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
Once again Wesley was right about something, but his lousy people skills
didn't let anyone listen to him. A properly presented: "Okay, let's
call trading the Box plan 'B' and try to come up with another plan that
will get Willow back, and let us keep the box. We can fall back on
trading the box if we don't come up with something better." might have
worked.
(And if they'd been ready to act when the opportunity presented itself,
they had a chance to keep the Box, and Willow after Snyder broke in on
the exchange.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Apteryx
news:1143603751.3...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
>specific interest that happened. Buffy takes a stab at coming up with
>a plan involving strategies and maps and stuff, Willow gets kidnapped
>for awhile, and we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
>have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
>B/A relationship.
I have a grumble about the way they set up Willow to be captured. She was
with Angel and Buffy on the roof. Angel is lowering Buffy into City Hall
from the roof with a rop and pulley. Then the pulley jams and supposedly the
only way he can help is to jump down and help her fight her way out through
the main doors. But since when was Angel so weak that he needed a pulley to
lift the weight of Buffy and a box that no one had any trouble lifting? Why
didn't he just pull her up on the rope, jammed pulley and all? Did the box
contain some vampire kryptonite (of whatever is the right colour to weaken
him)? No, its just a lame plot device to leave Willow alone on the roof so
she can be captured.
>I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
>box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
>(even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
>that things are different in a universe that works according to a
>Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
Wesley is right (twice is one episode! - rememember his warnings to plan
more carefully for the raid on City Hall, which then goes wrong because of
faulty equipment which should have been checked - or because of the vampire
kryptonite). It's harder this time, because choosing between the life of
friend now or the lives or many stranges later is not easy. But they gamble
that if they save Willow now (and clearly they can't be sure that making a
deal with the Mayor means he won't find a way to double-cross them and kill
Willow anyway) they can find a way to stop the Ascension later. They should
have prevented the Ascension now and found a way to save Willow later - say
by double-crossing the Mayor on an exchange deal.
>Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
>is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
After an initial "Yes!", and with time to think about it, and watching the
rest of the series, I find I don't care for it. I don't care for it at all.
But I can't explain why in a spoiler-free thread, so I will go outside and
start another thread. I may be some time.
>One-sentence summary: Keeps things rolling, although a little lifeless
>in places.
>AOQ rating: Good
I'd agree with that, though it's very close to the border with Decent. For
me, the 77th best BtVS episode, 17th best in Season 3
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
> >(even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
> >that things are different in a universe that works according to a
> >Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
>
> Wesley is right (twice is one episode! - rememember his warnings to plan
> more carefully for the raid on City Hall, which then goes wrong because of
> faulty equipment which should have been checked - or because of the vampire
erzrzore gung obgu ohssl naq snvgu yrnq cbgragvnyf
vagb rapybfrq fcnprf jvgubhg fraqvat va n cbvag
jurer gurl trg genccrq naq qrpvzngrq
jr nerag qrnyvat jvgu gur oevtugrfg gnpgvpvnaf bs gur jrfgrea jbeyq
-aliens- has a similar bright tactic
of sending the entire squad with inadequate recon and equipment
into trappable position
at which they get trapped
apparently people get deeply stupid when necessary for the plot
like theres never a consideration
they might stall the mayor
while coming up with an alternative rescue
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight.
Xander is desperate to connect to... SOMETHING! ANYTHING! Yeah, he's
serious. Sorta.
> And finally (on this topic), let me say: "Yale is a dumping ground
> for those who didn't get into Harvard." "I got into Harvard."
> Heh.
Go Willow! Break one off in da bitca. Real casual-like...
> Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
> worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain.
Go Willow! Break one off in da bitca. *Not* so casual-like...
So, what *is* with Willow? Where'd our little mouse go? She doesn't
back down an inch from someone who's *seriously* dangerous, which not
only may be the most confrontational she's ever gotten with *anyone* in
her entire life (other than her mother in "Gingerbread,") it's probably
also the most overtly hazardous move she's ever made - because Faith
really *is* seriously dangerous, and seriously unstable right now.
>
> Seriously, Willow, you're not a Wiccan. You just do magic.
Seriously, Willow has a real potential problem here: she doesn't really
understand the difference. And, frankly, neither do the rest of the
Scoobies. Giles *really* needs to do a lot more 'splainin'.
> Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
> is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
> So is taking the pages, and so is the way she tells Giles about it.
>
Who'd'a thunk it? Our Willow has turned into a danger junkie. She's
buzzing on adrenalin.
>
> In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
> gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
> Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
> several forms of idiot. It makes sense to me, though, and I think
> it's a big moment for her.
Probably the biggest moment in her life after meeting Buffy and having
her whole life turned around.
> She's not just following Buffy, but
> actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
> started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
> now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
> wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
But... the lions, and tigers, and bears, oh, my...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1143603751.3...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
>
>
> >I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
> >specific interest that happened. Buffy takes a stab at coming up with
> >a plan involving strategies and maps and stuff, Willow gets kidnapped
> >for awhile, and we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
> >have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
> >B/A relationship.
>
> I have a grumble about the way they set up Willow to be captured. She was
> with Angel and Buffy on the roof. Angel is lowering Buffy into City Hall
> from the roof with a rop and pulley. Then the pulley jams and supposedly the
> only way he can help is to jump down and help her fight her way out through
> the main doors. But since when was Angel so weak that he needed a pulley to
> lift the weight of Buffy and a box that no one had any trouble lifting? Why
> didn't he just pull her up on the rope, jammed pulley and all? Did the box
> contain some vampire kryptonite (of whatever is the right colour to weaken
> him)? No, its just a lame plot device to leave Willow alone on the roof so
> she can be captured.
She wasn't left alone on the roof. She left the roof alone, before they
even started lowering Buffy down. The pulley jamming had nothing to do
with it.
Jeff Jacoby
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> The winning team that brought us "Helpless" strikes again with a
> more (directly) "plot" episode.
>
> Hey, Buffy gets into NU! That's my alma mater. Too bad she seems
> unlikely to actually include Chicago in her travel plans; otherwise we
> could've been classmates, had she actually existed. This lets the
Minor nit. Good SATs + bad grades (lots of missed classes,
etc.) do NOT get you into any school you want.
> show bring up basically some of the same my-life-versus-the-world
> issues we've seen before, although I guess Buffy is willing to make
> more reasonable compromises than in previous life-versus-duty stories.
> Too bad the situation doesn't seem willing to compromise at all. I
> don't get why Buffy complains to Angel about being in a rut, given
> that they went on a "normal" date just two episodes ago, but that
> leads to a nice followup at the end with the picnic blanket.
>
> I'm not quite sure whether or not Xander was serious or joking about
> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight. And Cordelia
> seems unusually nasty in the early scenes. Now, as has been discussed,
> Cordelia is often erratically written from week to week. My usual
> reaction to hear her go "mean" after having been in "nice" mode
> (except to Xander, of course) for awhile is annoyance at the
> fluctuation. So what do the writers do? They have the characters
> comment on it. And the viewer is thus reassured right there and then
> that it's not sloppy character work, and may even be a significant
> plot point.
For a character with as little screen time as she gets, I
think there's quite a bit of depth and consistency...once
you put all the pieces together. Did you catch her last scene
in the ep.? It would be fair to ask why she doing menial labor.
> (Some people apparently don't like it when the script
> throws in little "signposts" like that. Well, THEY MAKE ME HAPPY.)
> And finally (on this topic), let me say: "Yale is a dumping ground
> for those who didn't get into Harvard." "I got into Harvard."
> Heh.
Heh. Harvard: the Stanford of the East!
> I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
> specific interest that happened. Buffy takes a stab at coming up with
> a plan involving strategies and maps and stuff, Willow gets kidnapped
> for awhile, and we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
> have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
> B/A relationship. All setup, not much action. So this review will be
> short and have a lot of complaints, but it's important to remember
> this about the episode: even when nothing's happening, the plot gives
> the illusion of moving along, and things never get too boring.
>
> Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
> worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain.
For me I think it was about time she was reminded that
she too has the power to make good or bad choices, and
that ultimately the direction she chooses is fully her
responsibility.
> Other
> nice touches: Giles with the thermos of tea, Oz and Xander with the
> diagrams. Also also, I'm going to give Dushku some credit too: Faith
> is in this episode a lot, and she's always interesting to watch,
> especially since I haven't yet come up with a reliable way to
> "read" her. So we can ponder, say, whether she attaches any
> special significance to her new toy (that would mean that leaving it
> behind at the end signifies... something).
>
> The average viewer who's me can't be expected to automatically care
> about the Artifact Of +5 Evil without some motivation, some trick to
> make it seem more significant than all the other supernatural stuff
> that happens in the Buffyverse. "Choices" achieves mild success
> with such a technique - Wilkins gets angry to the point of raising
> his voice. Which he almost never does. Significance ho.
>
> Seriously, Willow, you're not a Wiccan. You just do magic.
>
> I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
> box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
This is the first time we see some serious backbone (and smarts)
from Wesley. Buffy and gang spent all of maybe 10 seconds thinking
of alternatives. Wes's comment "we will find a way" was right on
target and the others should have listened. Had Giles said it (and
being more mature and experienced, he should have been able to discern
those times when Wes was being a prat and when he was right) and
backed him up I'm sure it would have given something for the Scoobies
to chew on. And possibly made for a more interesting face-off
with the Mayor.
> (even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
> that things are different in a universe that works according to a
> Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
>
> Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
> is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
> So is taking the pages, and so is the way she tells Giles about it.
>
> So are we supposed to believe that there're roughly two security
> people anywhere in City Hall? Most public parks are harder to move
> freely in.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Selected Wilkins antics (the plastic wrap comes to mind)
> - Snyder and the lunch ("Is that the new drug lingo?")
> - Willow's aborted attempt to retell her confrontation with Faith
>
> In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
> gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
> Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
> several forms of idiot.
I don't know how the fictional UCS would rank among US
universities, but various UC schools are world-class,
particularly Cal, UCLA and UCSF (and I'm sure I'm leaving
out a host of other good UC campuses).
Now if it were Cal State Sunnydale, that's a whole 'nother
matter.
> It makes sense to me, though, and I think
> it's a big moment for her. She's not just following Buffy, but
> actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
> started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
> now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
> wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
>
> Otherwise, yeah, more questions. What's in Faith's head? How will
> Snyder react to all this? Is Cordelia getting a character-arc of her
> own, so close to the end of the year? Is it Angel's turn to be the
> one worrying about the future of his Slayer/Vamp relationship? Will
> the season get the conclusion it deserves?
Jeff
Apteryx
news:dsample-88B734...@news.giganews.com...
You're right, I hadn't noticed that. Although I assume their intended exit
from the roof was the same as hers, so they might at least have had a chance
of rescuing her from Faith. But apart from that possibility, it appears that
the writers forgetting a vampire's strength was just to set up an extra
fight, or else just for forgetting's sake.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
Jeff Jacoby <jja...@not.real.com> wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2006 19:42:31 -0800, Arbitrar <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
> > gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
> > Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
> > several forms of idiot.
>
> I don't know how the fictional UCS would rank among US
> universities, but various UC schools are world-class,
> particularly Cal, UCLA and UCSF (and I'm sure I'm leaving
> out a host of other good UC campuses).
Sunnydale occupies the same geographic location that Santa Barbara does
in the real world, (Two hours from L.A., the weather map in "Amends"
put the snow over Santa Barbara, it's an old map of Santa Barbara on the
Mayor's office wall, there will be future episodes where they have a
"map of Sunnydale" and it's really a map of Santa Barbara, they often
use Santa Barbara for establishing shots, and other things from future
episodes will confirm the area.) and there is a UC Santa Barbara.
As for Willow's decision. It being not the brightest of choices might
have nothing to do with the academic standing of the school. As Buffy
pointed out: There are safer schools. There are safer prisons.
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:Also, the little moments are right.
Let's not forget the strike force's response to
Wesley's command to synchronize watches.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
kenm47
something wrong in the pacing, the timing, the cuts, I'm not sure.
As I think about it, I wonder if that was intentional. Maybe it's
because as much as we love Willow, Wesley is right. Of course, we have
to accept that Buffy's inner compass even when wrong is right and she's
not responsible for the mayhem of others her alternative actions might
have prevented (like had she dusted Angelus in the mall after
destroying the Judge, Jenny and others would still be around).
Maybe because, cleverly enough, someone, even an evil someone, has to
say some things to B and A they don't want to hear or think about.
Maybe because now we see Faith cowardly kill without compunction
someone who looks to be human, and, from what we're told later,
unnecessarily as The Mayor was prepared to pay the courier.
There's just something off. How much of which is plot driven and how
much was spin off looming driven is unclear to me.
But all in all I still can live with "Good."
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> And finally (on this topic), let me say: "Yale is a dumping ground
> for those who didn't get into Harvard." "I got into Harvard."
> Heh.
Yeah, that was great. Willow got a lot of good lines in this ep.
> The average viewer who's me can't be expected to automatically care
> about the Artifact Of +5 Evil without some motivation, some trick to
> make it seem more significant than all the other supernatural stuff
> that happens in the Buffyverse. "Choices" achieves mild success
> with such a technique - Wilkins gets angry to the point of raising
> his voice. Which he almost never does. Significance ho.
I think this was the point where the Mayor had gone beyond creepy and
had actually started to scare me.
> What's in Faith's head?
It's probably not "Walk Like An Egyptian."
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Keeps things rolling, although a little lifeless
> in places.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
"Choices" is an odd episode. There's nothing major really wrong with
it. It's actually quite good. But it just isn't that memorable. I
don't think I've ever seen it mentioned when people discuss their
favorite episodes.
Since I did a Knee-Jerk Review of this one, I looked it up. "Bottom
line: a nice mix of story arc advancement and Season 4/Angel set-up."
I believe I stand by that. The Angel (the show) set-up I was referring
to was his general bad-assedness in the fight scenes, which had been
going on since "Bad Girls." "Choices" is almost all set-up, but it
does it in an entertaining way.
-- Mike Zeares
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
> Too bad the situation doesn't seem willing to compromise at all. I
> don't get why Buffy complains to Angel about being in a rut, given
> that they went on a "normal" date just two episodes ago, but that
> leads to a nice followup at the end with the picnic blanket.
Maybe feeling like they were "in a rut" was her way of avoiding deeper
fears, that her relationship with Angel was doomed and that she was going
to fail in her quest to have a normal life outside of the slaying.
I watched this ep again a couple of days ago (the first time I've
re-watched before an AOQ review), and I couldn't help but think of
Firefly's use of the word "rut."
> I'm not quite sure whether or not Xander was serious or joking about
> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight.
It seems pretty clear that Xander is not going to college. (Even if he
got accepted somewhere, he might well have decided not to go. He's always
been the worst student of the bunch.) But since all of his friends ARE
going to college, he feels desperate to do something meaningful that will
allow him to feel like he isn't a failure. At least going On the Road is
better than becoming Car Guy.
> Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
> worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain.
I love that exchange, especially when Willow calmly says "It's *way* too
late," and Faith looks surprised and a little upset despite herself. Is
there still some part of her that wants to go back to the good guys? Or
had she just gotten an ego boost from the thought that the good guys
*would* want her back?
I also really liked the scene where the Mayor dissects Buffy and Angel's
relationship and its likely failure. He's the villain, but he makes an
awful lot of sense, and Buffy and Angel both seem a little discomfited.
Their final scene, where they try to convince themselves that the Mayor
was wrong, was sweet but shows how much suppressed doubt they really have.
One more nice scene: Oz and Xander's conversation as they prepare the
spell. "There's no one like my Willow." "No, there's not." It showed the
depths of both guy's feelings for Willow; and it also showed that Oz has
not only forgiven Xander for LW, but that they have come to a tacit
understanding about their different relationships with Willow. "Toad me"
was cute too.
> In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
> gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
> Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
> several forms of idiot. It makes sense to me, though, and I think
> it's a big moment for her. She's not just following Buffy, but
> actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
> started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
> now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
> wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
I'm totally on your side here. And why would Willow choose a more
prestigious college over a chance to help save the world? That wouldn't
be my Willow.
(I guess she could have chosen to go to Harvard or MIT or Oxford and then
come back to work with Buffy after graduating. I wonder if she considered
this, and then decided "No, there's too much risk that Buffy won't live
that long, I have to work with her while I can....")
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Vanya6724
Apteryx wrote:
>
> You're right, I hadn't noticed that. Although I assume their intended exit
> from the roof was the same as hers, so they might at least have had a chance
> of rescuing her from Faith. But apart from that possibility, it appears that
> the writers forgetting a vampire's strength was just to set up an extra
> fight, or else just for forgetting's sake.
Angel's strength seems to be very inconsistent. How is it in
"Consequences" that Wesley and a few guys from the council were able to
overpower him so easily? Maybe when he got his own show he got stronger
because on Angel he often has no trouble dispatching far worse. But
this is a problem in general through the whole series for a number of
characters. Sometimes Xander appears to be a wuss, sometimes he is able
to go mano-a-mano with vampires, who supposedly have superhuman
strength. Buffy's strength also seems to fluctuate quite a bit as
circumstance requires.
Opus the Penguin
> Sunnydale occupies the same geographic location that Santa Barbara
> does in the real world, (Two hours from L.A., the weather map in
> "Amends" put the snow over Santa Barbara, it's an old map of Santa
> Barbara on the Mayor's office wall, there will be future episodes
> where they have a "map of Sunnydale" and it's really a map of
> Santa Barbara, they often use Santa Barbara for establishing
> shots, and other things from future episodes will confirm the
> area.) and there is a UC Santa Barbara.
But in a major divergence, Santa Barbara has 7--count 'em, 7--
Starbucks.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
eli...@gmail.com
Oh yeah! Central Park is very pretty, but I much prefer the jungle.
*listens to distant drums*
Don Sample
How many did it have 9 years ago? (Yeesh, it's realy been 9 years?)
Espen Schjønberg
> Angel's strength seems to be very inconsistent. How is it in
> "Consequences" that Wesley and a few guys from the council were able to
> overpower him so easily? Maybe when he got his own show he got stronger
> because on Angel he often has no trouble dispatching far worse. But
> this is a problem in general through the whole series for a number of
> characters. Sometimes Xander appears to be a wuss, sometimes he is able
> to go mano-a-mano with vampires, who supposedly have superhuman
> strength. Buffy's strength also seems to fluctuate quite a bit as
> circumstance requires.
When it comes to strength inconsistence, I can absolutely deal with the
Slayer having inconsistent strength. She has to dig into her strength to
have any, kind of -well, it's a kind of magic. Even if Angel's strength
also is kind of magic, he should be much more reliable on this point.
Xander & al, is a big problem. In season one Giles makes a point: only
the Slayer has the strenght and skill to fight the vampires. Buffy
accepts this, and it is the premises of the series. So, why can people
fight the vampires, then? Ok, once _very rarely_ they should be lucky.
But if they fight the vampires on a day-to-day basis, they should have
themselves killed in a week. This point is also underlined in Never kill
a boy on the first date.
So, the increasing tendency to let the Gang fight vampires -with
success- is highly annoying.
I surely hope the writers stop this downward slope, if we ever see the
scoobies slay vampires faster than Buff, the show will surely have lost
it's path.
--
Espen
Espen Schjønberg
I don't think one-starbuck-towns have a university.
One club, in a univerity-town?
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
EGK
Maybe this would fit better in the recent thread about moments in Buffy that
made you jump up and shout. :)
I can't believe no one has mentioned Willow's long, form-fitting dress in
Choices. I seem to remember it got a lot of notice the first time around.
Especially the scene where they're leaving the library and the cameraman
glues his camera on her backside for lingering look-see. :)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
Rowan Hawthorn
> Maybe this would fit better in the recent thread about moments in Buffy that
> made you jump up and shout. :)
>
> I can't believe no one has mentioned Willow's long, form-fitting dress in
> Choices. I seem to remember it got a lot of notice the first time around.
> Especially the scene where they're leaving the library and the cameraman
> glues his camera on her backside for lingering look-see. :)
Actually, that scene fits better in the thread about moments in Buffy
that make me sit still and hope no one notices...
What, there isn't one of those threads? Well, there ought to be.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Xander & al, is a big problem. In season one Giles makes a point: only
> the Slayer has the strenght and skill to fight the vampires. Buffy
> accepts this, and it is the premises of the series. So, why can people
> fight the vampires, then? Ok, once _very rarely_ they should be lucky.
> But if they fight the vampires on a day-to-day basis, they should have
> themselves killed in a week. This point is also underlined in Never kill
> a boy on the first date.
>
> So, the increasing tendency to let the Gang fight vampires -with
> success- is highly annoying.
Yeah, I can tell it's one of those things that really bothers you (and
to a lesser degree, situations where Buffy isn't the hero).
I suppose when people spend that much time around vampires, they should
get better at knowing how to handle them, although maybe not to the
extent seen in the show.It's kinda something I've grown to accept along
with the fluctuations in Slayer strength. More of a nitpick than a
real complaint for me. I've made my peace with the way the show has
demonstrated repeatedly, for the past three seasons, that it cares more
about the demands of the episode's plot than in being consistent.
-AOQ
Opus the Penguin
Santa Barbara is a fairly sleepy little community. It wouldn't
surprise me if the students were frustrated with how little there is
to do there. I'd bet a lot of them make the trip to L.A. on weekends,
or at least Oxnard.
Opus the Penguin
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Don Sample (dsa...@synapse.net) wrote:
>>
>> > Sunnydale occupies the same geographic location that Santa
>> > Barbara does in the real world, (Two hours from L.A., the
>> > weather map in "Amends" put the snow over Santa Barbara, it's
>> > an old map of Santa Barbara on the Mayor's office wall, there
>> > will be future episodes where they have a "map of Sunnydale"
>> > and it's really a map of Santa Barbara, they often use Santa
>> > Barbara for establishing shots, and other things from future
>> > episodes will confirm the area.) and there is a UC Santa
>> > Barbara.
>>
>> But in a major divergence, Santa Barbara has 7--count 'em, 7--
>> Starbucks.
>
> How many did it have 9 years ago?
The Wayback Machine didn't let me look, so I don't know. I'd guess at
least four, but I don't have a lot to back that number up.
There's at least this, though. Santa Barbara has tightly controlled
its size for years. They like being a sleepy community on the coast.
They have no interest in growing. They do not wish to bustle. So the
7 Starbucks locations is not a result of tons of new construction and
added area as it might be in other California towns.
Juvpu znxrf zr guvax. Knaqre'f wbo va pbafgehpgvba evtug gurer va
gbja vf cerggl hayvxryl. Gurer jbhyqa'g or rabhtu arj pbafgehpgvba va
Fnagn Oneonen gb xrrc nalbar ohfl. Jryy, hayrff, V qba'g xabj, gur
uvtu fpubby oyrj hc be fbzrguvat. Fb Frnfba 7 znxrf frafr. Ohg rira
gura, Fnagn Oneonen jbhyq cebonoyl unir gb oevat gur jbexref va sebz
bhg bs gbja. Naq gung'f gur jnl gurl'q jnag vg. Vs lbh'er tbvat gb
unir n pbafgehpgvba pbzcnal, jul abg whfg guebj hc n cnja fubc naq
bcra n cnlqnl ybna pragre. Fuhqqre.
> (Yeesh, it's realy been 9 years?)
>
Try not to think about it.
Espen Schjønberg
>
> There's at least this, though. Santa Barbara has tightly controlled
> its size for years. They like being a sleepy community on the coast.
> They have no interest in growing. They do not wish to bustle. So the
> 7 Starbucks locations is not a result of tons of new construction and
> added area as it might be in other California towns.
>
> Juvpu znxrf zr guvax.
About Sunnydale actually _being_ Santa Barbara?
Man. Sunnydale is Sunnydale.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
doesnt sunnydale have seven cemetries? coincidence?
Jeff Jacoby
> Don Sample (dsa...@synapse.net) wrote:
>> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Don Sample (dsa...@synapse.net) wrote:
>>>
>>> > Sunnydale occupies the same geographic location that Santa
>>> > Barbara does in the real world, (Two hours from L.A., the
>>> > weather map in "Amends" put the snow over Santa Barbara, it's
>>> > an old map of Santa Barbara on the Mayor's office wall, there
>>> > will be future episodes where they have a "map of Sunnydale"
>>> > and it's really a map of Santa Barbara, they often use Santa
>>> > Barbara for establishing shots, and other things from future
>>> > episodes will confirm the area.) and there is a UC Santa
>>> > Barbara.
>>>
>>> But in a major divergence, Santa Barbara has 7--count 'em, 7--
>>> Starbucks.
>>
>> How many did it have 9 years ago?
>
> The Wayback Machine didn't let me look, so I don't know. I'd guess at
> least four, but I don't have a lot to back that number up.
>
> There's at least this, though. Santa Barbara has tightly controlled
> its size for years. They like being a sleepy community on the coast.
> They have no interest in growing.
You sure got that right! From the census bureau:
1990 85,571
2000 92,325
2004 87,370
(But a rapid decline like that can't be good in anybody's
book.)
> They do not wish to bustle. So the
> 7 Starbucks locations is not a result of tons of new construction and
> added area as it might be in other California towns.
>
> Juvpu znxrf zr guvax. Knaqre'f wbo va pbafgehpgvba evtug gurer va
> gbja vf cerggl hayvxryl. Gurer jbhyqa'g or rabhtu arj pbafgehpgvba va
> Fnagn Oneonen gb xrrc nalbar ohfl. Jryy, hayrff, V qba'g xabj, gur
> uvtu fpubby oyrj hc be fbzrguvat. Fb Frnfba 7 znxrf frafr. Ohg rira
> gura, Fnagn Oneonen jbhyq cebonoyl unir gb oevat gur jbexref va sebz
> bhg bs gbja. Naq gung'f gur jnl gurl'q jnag vg. Vs lbh'er tbvat gb
> unir n pbafgehpgvba pbzcnal, jul abg whfg guebj hc n cnja fubc naq
> bcra n cnlqnl ybna pragre. Fuhqqre.
Easily explained: Sunnydale is NOT Santa Barbara!
Jeff
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> success- is highly annoying.
a normal human hits someone in the chest with a wooden stake
and they would be lucky to tickle the ribs
its really hard to break through the bone and get deep into chest
in most cases they dont plunge the stakes any farther than a rib gap anyway
drifter
> In article <Xns97955D5587AE2op...@127.0.0.1>,
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample (dsa...@synapse.net) wrote:
>>
>>> Sunnydale occupies the same geographic location that Santa Barbara
>>> does in the real world, (Two hours from L.A., the weather map in
>>> "Amends" put the snow over Santa Barbara, it's an old map of Santa
>>> Barbara on the Mayor's office wall, there will be future episodes
>>> where they have a "map of Sunnydale" and it's really a map of
>>> Santa Barbara, they often use Santa Barbara for establishing
>>> shots, and other things from future episodes will confirm the
>>> area.) and there is a UC Santa Barbara.
>>
>> But in a major divergence, Santa Barbara has 7--count 'em, 7--
>> Starbucks.
>
> doesnt sunnydale have seven cemetries? coincidence?
Twelve, actually, per Revelations, IIRC. The one with the magic
mitten thingy.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Don Sample
Gurer'f ybgf bs erabingvba jbex, svkvat nyy gur fghss gung trgf
qrzbyvfurq ol qrzbaf naq fhpu. Cyhf guvatf yvxr Pvgl Unyy, juvpu unq gb
or erohvyg nsgre gur frnfba 5 svanyr.
Don Sample
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
The Bronze was just the club that Sunnydale High kids hung out at.
There are others.
Vanya6724
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > success- is highly annoying.
>
> a normal human hits someone in the chest with a wooden stake
> and they would be lucky to tickle the ribs
> its really hard to break through the bone and get deep into chest
>
> in most cases they dont plunge the stakes any farther than a rib gap anyway
The evidence on the show suggests that vampires are peculiarly
vulnerable in the chestal area. I can accept that since they are
supernatural beings. The fact that they instantly turn to dust after
being staked suggests that vampires are very unstable beings, so any
strength they have must be magical not really physical.
BTR1701
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 29.03.2006 16:41, Vanya6724 wrote:
>
> > Angel's strength seems to be very inconsistent. How is it in
> > "Consequences" that Wesley and a few guys from the council were able to
> > overpower him so easily? Maybe when he got his own show he got stronger
> > because on Angel he often has no trouble dispatching far worse. But
> > this is a problem in general through the whole series for a number of
> > characters. Sometimes Xander appears to be a wuss, sometimes he is able
> > to go mano-a-mano with vampires, who supposedly have superhuman
> > strength. Buffy's strength also seems to fluctuate quite a bit as
> > circumstance requires.
>
> When it comes to strength inconsistence, I can absolutely deal with the
> Slayer having inconsistent strength. She has to dig into her strength to
> have any, kind of -well, it's a kind of magic. Even if Angel's strength
> also is kind of magic, he should be much more reliable on this point.
> Xander & al, is a big problem. In season one Giles makes a point: only
> the Slayer has the strenght and skill to fight the vampires. Buffy
> accepts this, and it is the premises of the series. So, why can people
> fight the vampires, then? Ok, once _very rarely_ they should be lucky.
> But if they fight the vampires on a day-to-day basis, they should have
> themselves killed in a week. This point is also underlined in Never kill
> a boy on the first date.
Gur NATRY frevrf ernpurq gur hygvzngr crnx bs fvyyvarff ba guvf cbvag
jura gurl unq Serq gnxvat ba inzcverf naq gevhzcuvat.
Kevin
kenm47 wrote:
> I haven't much to say on this one. It felt disjointed, out of kilter,
> something wrong in the pacing, the timing, the cuts, I'm not sure.
I agree -- all of those things, and more. This was a nose-dive in my
book, the worst episode of the season. Fury's dialogue writing is way
off, it seems to me... "Where's the Buffy?" as some have said on other
occasions. I didn't like the college-talk scenes, the opening &
closing stuff with B/A was awful (especially considering the fine,
poignant endings we've seen this season), and Willow's coyly holding
back from Giles the fact that she tore out the pages? Come on. Dull,
wrong, awkward, filler, some of the above, all of the above, whatever,
in nearly every scene.
There are websites listing dozens of quotes for each episode of the
show; the Choices pages are pathetically devoid of good lines. Now,
I'm not suggesting that witty writing will always save an otherwise
mediocre episode, nor that BTVS is "all about the funny" without regard
to its many other kinds of excellence -- but it's so disappointing when
it's not there. Fury's script for Helpless was heavier on the scary
and lighter on the wit (excepting Kralik) than most, but was far more
successful than Choices.
I'd guess that Fury got handed some pieces to build into a story -- the
What's-Everyone-Doing-Next-Year decisions, Cordelia's situation, a
face-to-face with the Mayor -- and he did what he could with them.
Circumstance isn't his fault, so I don't pin all the problems on his
writing. Cleaning up S4 in Primeval fell to him as well, poor guy.
Oz's trashing of the magick potions was bizarre... The box o' bugs was
disgusting... Ugh. Anyway, considering the big arc of late-S3 (and
its related issues) in two pieces, BG-Consequences-Enemies was a strong
trio, for the most part; Choices-Prom-GD was something else.
--Kevin
Michael Ikeda
news:1143603751.3...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy
> the box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside
> so quickly (even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion).
> I'll accept that things are different in a universe that works
> according to a Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
>
By this time, most of the Scoobies have gotten into the habit of
largely ignoring Wesley. Not entirely unexpected, given the
circumstances of his arrival, but also not a good idea. Disastrous
first impression aside, Wesley is a capable researcher and often
knows what he's talking about.
He also practically has a gift for saying things that are worth
listening to in a way that guarantees he won't be listened to. At
this point, the only time he's taken seriously is when he manages
to get Giles actively on his side. Whether a more skillful
approach would have done this (there are hints that Giles leans
toward Wesley's viewpoint in this case) and whether even Giles
would have made a difference with emotions running so strongly
isn't entirely clear.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
DysgraphicProgrammer
Buffy is dramatically stronger than a normal human. Ah, but that is the
key word isn't it? She is always exactly as strong as is necessary the
dramatic situation.
George W Harris
wrote:
:1990 85,571
:2000 92,325
:2004 87,370
:
:(But a rapid decline like that can't be good in anybody's
:book.)
Sbe fbzr ernfba, cebcregl inyhrf unir arire orra pbzcrgvgvir.
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
wrote:
:> In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
:> gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
:> Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
:> several forms of idiot. It makes sense to me, though, and I think
:> it's a big moment for her. She's not just following Buffy, but
:> actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
:> started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
:> now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
:> wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
:
:I'm totally on your side here. And why would Willow choose a more
:prestigious college over a chance to help save the world? That wouldn't
:be my Willow.
:
:(I guess she could have chosen to go to Harvard or MIT or Oxford and then
:come back to work with Buffy after graduating. I wonder if she considered
:this, and then decided "No, there's too much risk that Buffy won't live
:that long, I have to work with her while I can....")
She could have gone to Case Western Reserve;
after all, there's a lot of demonic activity in Cleveland.
:
:--Chris
:chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> The Bronze was just the club that Sunnydale High kids hung out at.
> There are others.
A reasonable assumption, but we never actually see any other clubs, just a
few bars and coffee houses.
Re: the Bronze: Gur tnat fgvyy unatf bhg gurer jvgubhg rzoneenffzrag juvyr
va pbyyrtr, naq fb qb gurve pbyyrtr-ntr naq byqre sevraqf (abg zhpu bs n
fcbvyre, ohg V'yy ebg13 naljnl). Fb vg'f cebonoyl abg whfg n FUF unatbhg.
I figure the Bronze is the only club in town that meets these criteria:
hosts live music, but stays open on nights when there isn't a band; is
all-ages, but serves alcohol; and is within walking distance of downtown
and at least some residential areas. Any others are probably 21+ only, on
the far outskirts of town, or otherwise limited.
Either that, or it's just that so many locals are afraid to go out at
night that no more than one club could stay in business.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
Mel
Apteryx wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1143603751.3...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>
>
>
>>I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
>>specific interest that happened. Buffy takes a stab at coming up with
>>a plan involving strategies and maps and stuff, Willow gets kidnapped
>>for awhile, and we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
>>have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
>>B/A relationship.
>
>
> I have a grumble about the way they set up Willow to be captured. She was
> with Angel and Buffy on the roof. Angel is lowering Buffy into City Hall
> from the roof with a rop and pulley. Then the pulley jams and supposedly the
> only way he can help is to jump down and help her fight her way out through
> the main doors. But since when was Angel so weak that he needed a pulley to
> lift the weight of Buffy and a box that no one had any trouble lifting? Why
> didn't he just pull her up on the rope, jammed pulley and all? Did the box
> contain some vampire kryptonite (of whatever is the right colour to weaken
> him)? No, its just a lame plot device to leave Willow alone on the roof so
> she can be captured.
Willow wasn't on the roof though. She went back down the ladder once
she'd done the spell. My guess is Faith grabbed her when she hit the
ground. Why she didn't wait with Angel and Buffy, or why Giles and
Wesley didn't wait _right there_ in the van so they could see her coming
back and pick her up doesn't make sense. They explained it by them
saying "we thought she stayed with you." They really should have planned
better where everyone was going to be and when, so when someone didn't
show where they were supposed, they would know right away something was up.
I also wonder why, once Willow got out of the room she was locked in,
why she didn't just leave. The whole building couldn't have been locked
up, otherwise B and A wouldn't have made it out the front door.
Mel
KenM47
Well, it is dead flesh after all.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:56:41 -0600, Jeff Jacoby <jja...@not.real.com>
> wrote:
>
> :1990 85,571
> :2000 92,325
> :2004 87,370
> :
> :(But a rapid decline like that can't be good in anybody's
> :book.)
>
> Sbe fbzr ernfba, cebcregl inyhrf unir arire orra pbzcrgvgvir.
Fnagn Oneonen'f cbchyngvba unf gnxra n fvzvyne qrpyvar gb Fhaalqnyr'f
cbchyngvba. Uzzz...
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> > The Bronze was just the club that Sunnydale High kids hung out at.
> > There are others.
>
> A reasonable assumption, but we never actually see any other clubs, just a
> few bars and coffee houses.
Gurer'f gur cynpr jvgu gur yvarhc jurer Ohssl nfxrq gur obhapre vs ur'q
frra Fcvxr va 'Fyrrcre.'
One Bit Shy
news:xuednXVxwae...@giganews.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
>> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
>> Writer: David Fury
>> Director: James A. Contner
>>
>>
>> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight.
>
> Xander is desperate to connect to... SOMETHING! ANYTHING! Yeah, he's
> serious. Sorta.
>
>> And finally (on this topic), let me say: "Yale is a dumping ground
>> for those who didn't get into Harvard." "I got into Harvard."
>> Heh.
>
> Go Willow! Break one off in da bitca. Real casual-like...
>
>> Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
>> worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain.
>
> Go Willow! Break one off in da bitca. *Not* so casual-like...
> So, what *is* with Willow? Where'd our little mouse go? She doesn't back
> down an inch from someone who's *seriously* dangerous, which not only may
> be the most confrontational she's ever gotten with *anyone* in her entire
> life (other than her mother in "Gingerbread,") it's probably also the most
> overtly hazardous move she's ever made - because Faith really *is*
> seriously dangerous, and seriously unstable right now.
>
>>
>> Seriously, Willow, you're not a Wiccan. You just do magic.
>
> Seriously, Willow has a real potential problem here: she doesn't really
> understand the difference. And, frankly, neither do the rest of the
> Scoobies. Giles *really* needs to do a lot more 'splainin'.
>
>> Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
>> is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
>> So is taking the pages, and so is the way she tells Giles about it.
>>
>
> Who'd'a thunk it? Our Willow has turned into a danger junkie. She's
> buzzing on adrenalin.
>
>>
>> In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
>> gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
>> Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
>> several forms of idiot. It makes sense to me, though, and I think
>> it's a big moment for her.
>
> whole life turned around.
>
>> She's not just following Buffy, but
>> actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
>> started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
>> now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
>> wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
>
>
> --
> Rowan Hawthorn
>
> "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
> Vampire Slayer"
Damn that was good. A real pleasure to read. Loved how Giles has some
'splainin' to do. (Poor Giles. How many people does he have to watch
without getting paid for it?)
OBS
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
On First Viewings:
Faith/Mayor scene was both touching and truely frightening. Faith
seems to be really enjoying herself. "Any particular eyes in mind?"
> I'm not quite sure whether or not Xander was serious or joking about
> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight.
Life has certainly dealt X an interesting hand, but it's nice to see
that he hasn't resorted to either F's or C's view on life. X will keep
pushing through no matter what.
And Cordelia
> seems unusually nasty in the early scenes.
Cordy needs a serious dose of cattle prod. Any volunteers??
> Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
> worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain.
A true highlight, both then and now. For once W gets a chance to be
the backbone and F gets a serious dose or reality. A true stand up and
cheer moment. "Well Boo Hoo." Of course F's comeback was just as
direct.
Other
> nice touches: Giles with the thermos of tea, Oz and Xander with the
> diagrams. Also also, I'm going to give Dushku some credit too: Faith
> is in this episode a lot, and she's always interesting to watch,
> especially since I haven't yet come up with a reliable way to
> "read" her.
Neither have we.
So we can ponder, say, whether she attaches any
> special significance to her new toy (that would mean that leaving it
> behind at the end signifies... something).
Definately the first real "gift" we've seen her receive on the show.
Willow got a witch pez, B got the ring from Scott, X got.....well, I
don't remember. But now we also have a gift for F.
One interesting that I noticed, on the exchange, Faith: "Surprise."
Nice to know she hasn't given up slaying.
> The average viewer who's me can't be expected to automatically care
> about the Artifact Of +5 Evil without some motivation, some trick to
> make it seem more significant than all the other supernatural stuff
> that happens in the Buffyverse. "Choices" achieves mild success
> with such a technique - Wilkins gets angry to the point of raising
> his voice. Which he almost never does. Significance ho.
The mayor is truely menacing this ep. Nice subtle changes.
> Seriously, Willow, you're not a Wiccan. You just do magic.
>
> I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
> box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
> (even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
> that things are different in a universe that works according to a
> Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
Wesley, as per a prior discussion, is an agent of the Council. One
life or many lives. Wesley, being the only one too *new* to build any
emotional connections, states the obvious solutions. The fact that no
one listens to him at this point speaks volumes about their driving
force.
> Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
> is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
> So is taking the pages, and so is the way she tells Giles about it.
>
> So are we supposed to believe that there're roughly two security
> people anywhere in City Hall? Most public parks are harder to move
> freely in.
Not people exactly.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
Xander: We Bohemian anti-establishment types have always been
persecuted.
Oz: Well, sure. You're all so weird.
> In the midst of the non-resolutions, there's one major choice that
> gets made: Willow's college decision. To show a study in contrasts,
> Mrs. Quality thought it was a stupid decision, and called Willow
> several forms of idiot. It makes sense to me, though, and I think
> it's a big moment for her. She's not just following Buffy, but
> actively picking the witching and the heroics over the academics. She
> started the series as an ordinary girl, not a Chosen One, and she's
> now consciously made the choice that this magical world is where she
> wants to be. Welcome to the depths of the jungle.
>
> Otherwise, yeah, more questions. What's in Faith's head? How will
> Snyder react to all this? Is Cordelia getting a character-arc of her
> own, so close to the end of the year? Is it Angel's turn to be the
> one worrying about the future of his Slayer/Vamp relationship? Will
> the season get the conclusion it deserves?
Not the best ep, but a lot of good info. Not on my list.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> In article <122mbq8...@corp.supernews.com>,
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> > The Bronze was just the club that Sunnydale High kids hung out at.
>> > There are others.
>>
>> A reasonable assumption, but we never actually see any other clubs, just a
>> few bars and coffee houses.
>
> Gurer'f gur cynpr jvgu gur yvarhc jurer Ohssl nfxrq gur obhapre vs ur'q
> frra Fcvxr va 'Fyrrcre.'
Jubbcf, V sbetbg nyy nobhg gung bar. Gur fprar bs gur snzrq "Ovyyl Vqby"
yvar.
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
>
>
> On First Viewings:
> Faith/Mayor scene was both touching and truely frightening. Faith
> seems to be really enjoying herself. "Any particular eyes in mind?"
>
>
>
>
>>seems unusually nasty in the early scenes.
>
>
> Cordy needs a serious dose of cattle prod. Any volunteers??
<Raises hand>
>
> So we can ponder, say, whether she attaches any
>
>>special significance to her new toy (that would mean that leaving it
>>behind at the end signifies... something).
>
>
> Definately the first real "gift" we've seen her receive on the show.
The first one that we've *seen*, maybe, but in Amends, when Faith shows
up at Buffy's house, Buffy goes upstairs to get gifts, and when she
comes back downstairs, she tells Joyce:
BUFFY: Okay, Mom, don’t touch yours, though, because then you’re
going to know what it is.
The line seems to imply that she also has a gift for Faith. I would
assume that they got something for her just in case she did decide to
show up.
>>I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
>>box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
>>(even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
>>that things are different in a universe that works according to a
>>Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
>
>
> Wesley, as per a prior discussion, is an agent of the Council. One
> life or many lives. Wesley, being the only one too *new* to build any
> emotional connections, states the obvious solutions. The fact that no
> one listens to him at this point speaks volumes about their driving
> force.
I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this, but it also speaks
volumes about the Council's operating "principles": Wesley's attitude is
a complete 180 from the Scoobies: while their first priority is to save
Willow, Wesley hasn't even bothered to take that into consideration.
This goes beyond accepting that there may be losses in battle; it's the
principle that people are completely dispensible, of no more concern
than the rope that Buffy and Angel leave behind. It's a disturbing look
at the Council's mindset. With friends like those, I'm not sure how
many *enemies* the human race needs...
Jeff Jacoby
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
>
> On First Viewings:
> Faith/Mayor scene was both touching and truely frightening. Faith
> seems to be really enjoying herself. "Any particular eyes in mind?"
>
>> I'm not quite sure whether or not Xander was serious or joking about
>> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight.
>
> Life has certainly dealt X an interesting hand, but it's nice to see
> that he hasn't resorted to either F's or C's view on life. X will keep
> pushing through no matter what.
>
> And Cordelia
>> seems unusually nasty in the early scenes.
>
> Cordy needs a serious dose of cattle prod. Any volunteers??
Get in line!
Seriously, she's always been one to say what she thinks, in
literal words or in emotional displays. I think it's about
5% actual venom and 95% bitterness. In retrospect, her
bitterness at the gang's casual discussion of their futures,
while hers seems to have been taken away, is understandable.
Jeff
Jeff Jacoby
> hopelessly devoted wrote:
[snip]
>> Wesley, as per a prior discussion, is an agent of the Council. One
>> life or many lives. Wesley, being the only one too *new* to build any
>> emotional connections, states the obvious solutions. The fact that no
>> one listens to him at this point speaks volumes about their driving
>> force.
>
> I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this, but it also speaks
> volumes about the Council's operating "principles": Wesley's attitude is
> a complete 180 from the Scoobies: while their first priority is to save
> Willow, Wesley hasn't even bothered to take that into consideration.
Wesley: Damn it, you listen to me! This box is the key to the
Mayor's Ascension. Thousands of lives depend on our
getting rid of it. Now I want to help Willow as much as
the rest of you, but we will find another way.
I may not believe he actually does care about or want to help
Willow as much as the rest, but I *do* think he's bothered to
take her into consideration.
Buffy: There is no other way.
And she spent how long thinking about that? Maybe 5 seconds
at most.
It's a tough tough decision, and he's offered a way to help
everybody...if they will take the time to consider other
possibilities.
> This goes beyond accepting that there may be losses in battle; it's the
> principle that people are completely dispensible, of no more concern
> than the rope that Buffy and Angel leave behind.
It could be argued, from that conversational context, that for
Buffy the *only* people that truely matter happen to be the people
she knows personally. The rest of the town's people? Screw 'em!
(Okay, I know that's not true in general, but at that moment for
her, it is.)
> It's a disturbing look
> at the Council's mindset. With friends like those, I'm not sure how
> many *enemies* the human race needs...
Jeff
Rowan Hawthorn
As a hostage, Willow might well not *have* the time.
>
>
>>This goes beyond accepting that there may be losses in battle; it's the
>>principle that people are completely dispensible, of no more concern
>>than the rope that Buffy and Angel leave behind.
>
>
> It could be argued, from that conversational context, that for
> Buffy the *only* people that truely matter happen to be the people
> she knows personally. The rest of the town's people? Screw 'em!
> (Okay, I know that's not true in general, but at that moment for
> her, it is.)
>
Because *at that moment* the rest of the people aren't in immediate
jeopardy - or at least, no more than usual. They know the Ascension is
drawing near, but they do have *some* time in which to come up with an
alternate plan (which they do.) Willow, on the other hand, certainly
*is* in immediate danger.
kenm47
Buffy the *only* people that truely matter happen to be the people
she knows personally. The rest of the town's people? Screw 'em!
(Okay, I know that's not true in general, but at that moment for
her, it is.) "
Agreed. Wesley's thoughts are that of a leader recognizing some losses
may be inevitable to save a greater number. Buffy seeems to almost
always focus on that circle of family and friends despite what that
might mean to the world.
Sbe rknzcyr, Qnja if. rirelguvat. Naq Qnja jnfa'g rira erny snzvyl.
Ken (Brooklyn)
peachy ashie passion
I think instead that Wesley has a general's mindset, that some
losses are inevitable.
Buffy has a hero's mindset, no loss is acceptable.
Espen Schjønberg
> Espen Schjønberg wrote:
>
>
>>Xander & al, is a big problem. In season one Giles makes a point: only
>>the Slayer has the strenght and skill to fight the vampires. Buffy
>>accepts this, and it is the premises of the series. So, why can people
>>fight the vampires, then? Ok, once _very rarely_ they should be lucky.
>>But if they fight the vampires on a day-to-day basis, they should have
>>themselves killed in a week. This point is also underlined in Never kill
>>a boy on the first date.
>>
>>success- is highly annoying.
>
>
> to a lesser degree, situations where Buffy isn't the hero).
To a lesser degree. The correct wordings should be "where Buffy is
turned into an uncontributing victim." I loved The Witch. Victim, but
still the hero. My problem with DMP is -well. I guess I should give up
explaining it. But it is that 'turning Buff into a stupid child'-game. i
guess it is the way the _others_ treat her: trying to squash her. of
course, i do understand it would have been really boring if Only buff
could have been the hero. But when the gang are heros, this should bee
in "understanding" with the premise of the show.
> I suppose when people spend that much time around vampires, they should
> get better at knowing how to handle them, although maybe not to the
> extent seen in the show.
It is more of a Van Helsing-path. If that had worked, the Counsil should
have been fighting with trained men now.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Jeff Jacoby
That's a nice way to put it. And that of course
will always work for the hero in her own show.
Jeff
Jeff Jacoby
In fact they don't know she isn't already dead. They
speculate she's not, but they don't really know (until
they call).
>>>This goes beyond accepting that there may be losses in battle; it's the
>>>principle that people are completely dispensible, of no more concern
>>>than the rope that Buffy and Angel leave behind.
>>
>>
>> It could be argued, from that conversational context, that for
>> Buffy the *only* people that truely matter happen to be the people
>> she knows personally. The rest of the town's people? Screw 'em!
>> (Okay, I know that's not true in general, but at that moment for
>> her, it is.)
>>
>
> Because *at that moment* the rest of the people aren't in immediate
> jeopardy - or at least, no more than usual. They know the Ascension is
> drawing near, but they do have *some* time in which to come up with an
> alternate plan (which they do.) Willow, on the other hand, certainly
> *is* in immediate danger.
Or she's already dead, or that she's in no danger at all...
Giles: We thought she stayed with you.
Angel: They must have grabbed her when
she hit the ground.
They're just guessing the Mayor has her (the rest of the
dialog in the show clearly implies the Mayor did not call
them before this meeting.) Maybe she got mugged, or killed
by a random vamp, or any of a number of other things.
Who knows?
They didn't even take 60 seconds to bat around another idea
besides a straight-up trade, not even certain the Mayor
had her until they called.
Jeff
One Bit Shy
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
> (or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
Ah, a California Spring is in the air. Buffy's wearing a sexy summer
dress and starting on a tan. Willow's shows up in an even sexier skin
tight dress. Oz has painted his fingernails. And everybody is so
damned chipper! (Well - everybody but Cordelia and Wesley. Party
poopers.)
> The winning team that brought us "Helpless" strikes again with a
> more (directly) "plot" episode.
So plot driven it's positively disorienting to the casual Buffy viewer.
> Hey, Buffy gets into NU! That's my alma mater. Too bad she seems
> unlikely to actually include Chicago in her travel plans; otherwise we
> could've been classmates, had she actually existed. This lets the
> show bring up basically some of the same my-life-versus-the-world
> issues we've seen before, although I guess Buffy is willing to make
> more reasonable compromises than in previous life-versus-duty stories.
> Too bad the situation doesn't seem willing to compromise at all. I
> don't get why Buffy complains to Angel about being in a rut, given
> that they went on a "normal" date just two episodes ago, but that
> leads to a nice followup at the end with the picnic blanket.
Well I think that's mainly because the Mayor said he didn't see picnics
in their future. A little defiance.
> I'm not quite sure whether or not Xander was serious or joking about
> his road-trip, but the scene seems to be played straight.
I'm thinking that Xander ought to be getting kind of scared around now
watching everybody settling their futures while he can't see one for
himself. But he doesn't act like it. Maybe something like this is his
coping mechanism.
> And Cordelia
> seems unusually nasty in the early scenes. Now, as has been discussed,
> Cordelia is often erratically written from week to week. My usual
> reaction to hear her go "mean" after having been in "nice" mode
> (except to Xander, of course) for awhile is annoyance at the
> fluctuation. So what do the writers do? They have the characters
> comment on it. And the viewer is thus reassured right there and then
> that it's not sloppy character work, and may even be a significant
> plot point. (Some people apparently don't like it when the script
> throws in little "signposts" like that. Well, THEY MAKE ME HAPPY.)
I guess it worked then. Does that mean you're happy with Cordy now?
> And finally (on this topic), let me say: "Yale is a dumping ground
> for those who didn't get into Harvard." "I got into Harvard."
> Heh.
>
> I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
> specific interest that happened.
It's not transformative like an Innocence is. As Wesley said at the
end, they're kind of back where they started. But interesting stuff
happened. Especially with Willow.
> Buffy takes a stab at coming up with
> a plan involving strategies and maps and stuff, Willow gets kidnapped
> for awhile, and we do a prisoner-exchange that serves as an excuse to
> have the Mayor none-too-subtly trying to push along any unease with the
> B/A relationship. All setup, not much action. So this review will be
> short and have a lot of complaints, but it's important to remember
> this about the episode: even when nothing's happening, the plot gives
> the illusion of moving along, and things never get too boring.
The show is a bit out of character for BTVS. Aside from being plot
driven, as you observed, it is of a type atypical for the series.
Essentially it's a spy story. Courrier arriving by private plane in
the middle of the night and assassinated. Stealth break-in at the
foreign embassy - er - city hall. Tense prisoner exchange interrupted
by the local gendarmes. Like the mayor said, everbody should have been
wearing treanch coats.
What you observe as the "illusion of moving along" I think is a style
of relying on the tension of uncertainty more so than direct action or
emotion to engage you. It's interesting that it's the same writer as
for Helpless, which does something akin to this with its trapped in the
locked house with a monster scenario. There you had Buffy running down
a hall trying doors not knowing what's behind them - escape or worse
horrors?
But that was terror driven. Here, in spy story tradition, we have the
deliberate entry into the enemies lair, with each step taking you
deeper into danger, but closer to reward, and the tension rising for
both. Even capture is turned into the opportunity to get inside ever
deeper. Doesn't James Bond do the same thing in like every 007 movie?
Hell, even Willow's pencil can be taken as the stand in for one of Q's
clever devices. And her face-off with Faith - Bond's coolness in the
face of death. (Though she probably did need a couple more
wisecracks.)
Obviously, this version is not performed with the kind of skill and
finesse that one would expect from James Bond or the like. But, then,
it shouldn't. The Scoobies aren't a high tech spy network. Their
version of a scenario like this is going to look more like - well, more
like Choices.
Once I get that perspective in place I just love what's done here.
Tossing the box around and using it as a weapon is akin to the way some
doomsday device might get tossed around in an espionage thriller. I
like the timing and feel of Buffy and Angel bursting out of city hall,
pausing a beat to find a hiding place, leaping under cover, vamps
running out, and Giles and Wesley zooming off as diversion. Go team!
And that great faceoff at the prisoner exchange. Buffy & Wilkins
approaching and sizing each other up. How irritating must it have been
to Buffy for the Mayor to speak past her to Angel - surely deliberate.
Angel's sharp retort, then Oz's fearful caution to him as Faith holds
Willow tighter. What tension. Have we ever seen a confrontation like
this before?
Obviously I like this episode. I'm not sure just why it generates the
general indifference it does. But for me it's a breath of fresh air
and earns an easy Excellent.
> Also, the little moments are right. The Willow/Faith exchange really
> worked for me, for some reason that I can't quite explain. Other
> nice touches: Giles with the thermos of tea, Oz and Xander with the
> diagrams. Also also, I'm going to give Dushku some credit too: Faith
> is in this episode a lot, and she's always interesting to watch,
> especially since I haven't yet come up with a reliable way to
> "read" her. So we can ponder, say, whether she attaches any
> special significance to her new toy (that would mean that leaving it
> behind at the end signifies... something).
It's enough to know now how much she adored the knife when she first
handled it, to see how she didn't want to leave it behind when she
left, and to know that now Buffy has it. Did you notice the way Buffy
handled it? How the knife seemed to naturally fit her hand? There are
ways Buffy and Faith are alike no matter how divergant their paths may
be.
> The average viewer who's me can't be expected to automatically care
> about the Artifact Of +5 Evil without some motivation, some trick to
> make it seem more significant than all the other supernatural stuff
> that happens in the Buffyverse. "Choices" achieves mild success
> with such a technique - Wilkins gets angry to the point of raising
> his voice. Which he almost never does. Significance ho.
I loved how he positively leaped from behind the desk to hold it shut.
Not the kind of movement we've seen from him before.
Though we already knew that it was a serious deal from the way he
handled Faith at the start. That's an interesting moment in itself. I
mentioned in Enemies how Faith was truly trapped once her full
separation from Buffy and friends was complete. Here we see that
truth. The mayor is completely in charge now, fully intends to use
Faith as a weapon, and Faith knows it, and is on board with it.
> Seriously, Willow, you're not a Wiccan. You just do magic.
I personally cannot make sense out of what this show calls Wiccan, so I
generally shrug my shoulders when the term is used. Be that as it may,
in the sense that she's kidding herself if she thinks she's part of any
discipline when it comes to magic - you bet.
> I feel like under normal circumstances, Wesley's push to destroy the
> box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
> (even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
> that things are different in a universe that works according to a
> Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
At least you didn't jump and say Wesley was right - like when you
thought Buffy should have killed Angel in Innocence. I take that as
great progress. <g>
As you can see in this thread there is controversey over whether Wesley
was right.
I'm squarely on the side that he's a fool - wrong on multiple levels.
Going with the heart, saving the life they can reach, fighting for
friends and family - this is Buffy and team's moral foundation. It
serves them well. And it separates them from the evil they face.
Remember, just a few episodes ago, Faith rationalized her killing by
saying it was nothing compared to the lives she saved. Buffy heard
that and sees Faith now trapped in evil.
Wesley should have the sense to understand that about good and evil -
and the pair of eyes and ears to know that with Buffy there is no
alternative. And what arrogance to assume such great results from
destroying the box. They don't have a clue what it contains, what it
does, how it affects the ascension or even what the ascension really
is. Wesley's "cold calculation" is but a wishful prayer.
Meanwhile, Willow is performing great things, probably in part because
of her confidence that her friends will do everything they can to free
her.
In any case, there's one more thing happening in that scene not related
to whether Wesley is right, wrong or indifferent. Buffy - and the
Scoobies - take charge. Giles sees it and accepts it - doing exactly
as Buffy instructs. (Quite the change from Giles bossing Willow
around, huh?)
There's a kind of palace revolt at work here. But it's also
representative of the broader story of them growing up and taking
charge of their own lives. Not an accident that college decisions were
also being made in this episode.
It also goes to the broader identity theme. They've all grown into a
new, more independent identity. High school is coming to an end.
> Willow's use of the pencil is great; classic Willow (and, of course,
> is set up by months of appearances and mentions of pencil-levitation).
> So is taking the pages, and so is the way she tells Giles about it.
>
> So are we supposed to believe that there're roughly two security
> people anywhere in City Hall? Most public parks are harder to move
> freely in.
But have you ever seen such conservatively dressed vampires?
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:1143740976.5...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Gung, ubjrire, jnf hfrshy. Grzcbenevyl sberpybfvat gur "whfg xvyy
Qnja" bcgvba jnf jung svanyyl tbg gur Fpbbovrf frevbhfyl guvaxvat
nobhg jung gurl pbhyq npghnyyl qb gb svtug Tybel.
Naq, Qnja JNF erny snzvyl. Bgurejvfr Ohssl whzcvat guebhtu gur
cbegny jbhyqa'g unir jbexrq.
Rowan Hawthorn
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> news:1143740976.5...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>"It could be argued, from that conversational context, that for
>>Buffy the *only* people that truely matter happen to be the
>>people she knows personally. The rest of the town's people?
>>Screw 'em! (Okay, I know that's not true in general, but at that
>>moment for her, it is.) "
>>
>>Agreed. Wesley's thoughts are that of a leader recognizing some
>>losses may be inevitable to save a greater number. Buffy seeems
>>to almost always focus on that circle of family and friends
>>despite what that might mean to the world.
>>
>>Sbe rknzcyr, Qnja if. rirelguvat. Naq Qnja jnfa'g rira erny
>>snzvyl.
>
>
> Gung, ubjrire, jnf hfrshy. Grzcbenevyl sberpybfvat gur "whfg xvyy
> Qnja" bcgvba jnf jung svanyyl tbg gur Fpbbovrf frevbhfyl guvaxvat
> nobhg jung gurl pbhyq npghnyyl qb gb svtug Tybel.
>
> Naq, Qnja JNF erny snzvyl. Bgurejvfr Ohssl whzcvat guebhtu gur
> cbegny jbhyqa'g unir jbexrq.
>
Naq rira vs fur *jnfa'g*, gurl unq npprcgrq ure nf erny snzvyl naq sryg
gung jnl nobhg ure. Vs lbhe puvyq vf nqbcgrq engure guna lbhe angheny
qnhtugre, qb lbh whfg fueht naq tb, "Bu, jryy, fur'f abg zvar, fb gbhtu
abbtvrf. V qba'g arrq gb srrq ure, pybgur ure, cvpx hc ure zrqvpny
ovyyf, rgp, orpnhfr fur'f abg ernyyl snzvyl"?
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
>>(or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
>>Writer: David Fury
>>Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> Ah, a California Spring is in the air. Buffy's wearing a sexy summer
> dress and starting on a tan. Willow's shows up in an even sexier skin
> tight dress.
I would ask "Willow's *what* shows up," but I was looking right along
with the camera...
er...
Did I say that out loud???
>>I liked this episode, but I'm having a hard time remembering much of
>>specific interest that happened.
>
>
> It's not transformative like an Innocence is. As Wesley said at the
> end, they're kind of back where they started. But interesting stuff
> happened. Especially with Willow.
Yeah, I was looking right along with the camera...
> But that was terror driven. Here, in spy story tradition, we have the
> deliberate entry into the enemies lair, with each step taking you
> deeper into danger, but closer to reward, and the tension rising for
> both. Even capture is turned into the opportunity to get inside ever
> deeper. Doesn't James Bond do the same thing in like every 007 movie?
> Hell, even Willow's pencil can be taken as the stand in for one of Q's
> clever devices. And her face-off with Faith - Bond's coolness in the
> face of death. (Though she probably did need a couple more
> wisecracks.)
Unlike Bond, who does this for a living and depends on his coolness to
throw the baddie off balance, Willow was actually just pissed.
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:03:06 -0500, Rowan <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>>
>>>I may not believe he actually does care about or want to help
>>>Willow as much as the rest, but I *do* think he's bothered to
>>>take her into consideration.
>>>
>>> Buffy: There is no other way.
>>>
>>>And she spent how long thinking about that? Maybe 5 seconds
>>>at most.
>>>
>>>It's a tough tough decision,
It's a lot less tough if you have no emotional investment in the hostage.
> and he's offered a way to help
>>>everybody...if they will take the time to consider other
>>>possibilities.
>>
>>As a hostage, Willow might well not *have* the time.
>
>
> In fact they don't know she isn't already dead. They
> speculate she's not, but they don't really know (until
> they call).
Which was the next step, right?
>>>It could be argued, from that conversational context, that for
>>>Buffy the *only* people that truely matter happen to be the people
>>>she knows personally. The rest of the town's people? Screw 'em!
>>>(Okay, I know that's not true in general, but at that moment for
>>>her, it is.)
>>>
>>
>>Because *at that moment* the rest of the people aren't in immediate
>>jeopardy - or at least, no more than usual. They know the Ascension is
>>drawing near, but they do have *some* time in which to come up with an
>>alternate plan (which they do.) Willow, on the other hand, certainly
>>*is* in immediate danger.
>
>
> Or she's already dead, or that she's in no danger at all...
Option #2 can be eliminated, because if she was okay, she would have
either 1) gone back to the van (which didn't leave until Buffy & Angel
came out,) or 2) met them back at the library. Since she did neither,
it's a pretty fair assumption that something happened to her, just as
Angel says, as soon as she hit the ground.
Option #1 is possible, but Buffy's right when she says that they know
what Willow means to them. She's leverage. A dead hostage isn't much
leverage.
>
> Giles: We thought she stayed with you.
> Angel: They must have grabbed her when
> she hit the ground.
>
> They're just guessing the Mayor has her (the rest of the
> dialog in the show clearly implies the Mayor did not call
> them before this meeting.) Maybe she got mugged, or killed
> by a random vamp, or any of a number of other things.
> Who knows?
What are the actual odds of that, *right on the Mayor's turf*? From the
way his vampire minions behave around him, I suspect most of the
nightcrawlers know to keep clear.
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>
>>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
>>>(or "Somehow I think that UC-Sunnydale isn't a real school")
>>>Writer: David Fury
>>>Director: James A. Contner
>>
>>
>> Ah, a California Spring is in the air. Buffy's wearing a sexy summer
>> dress and starting on a tan. Willow's shows up in an even sexier skin
>> tight dress.
>
> I would ask "Willow's *what* shows up," but I was looking right along with
> the camera...
>
> er...
>
> Did I say that out loud???
If not, the sound of my laughter made up for it.
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Fur jnf gb Ohssl naq Ohssl vf gur bar gung znggref.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
George W Harris
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this, but it also speaks
:volumes about the Council's operating "principles": Wesley's attitude is
:a complete 180 from the Scoobies: while their first priority is to save
:Willow, Wesley hasn't even bothered to take that into consideration.
:This goes beyond accepting that there may be losses in battle; it's the
:principle that people are completely dispensible, of no more concern
:than the rope that Buffy and Angel leave behind. It's a disturbing look
:at the Council's mindset.
Although it's completely consistent with the
attitude suggested by the Cruciamentum.
:
:--
:Rowan Hawthorn
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:02:54 -0500, Rowan Hawthorn
> <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this, but it also speaks
> :volumes about the Council's operating "principles": Wesley's attitude is
> :a complete 180 from the Scoobies: while their first priority is to save
> :Willow, Wesley hasn't even bothered to take that into consideration.
> :This goes beyond accepting that there may be losses in battle; it's the
> :principle that people are completely dispensible, of no more concern
> :than the rope that Buffy and Angel leave behind. It's a disturbing look
> :at the Council's mindset.
>
> Although it's completely consistent with the
> attitude suggested by the Cruciamentum.
Of course. Interesting organization, the Council; remember the special
squad that handles the Council's "wet work?" I'd be curious as to who
besides rogue Slayers they're responsible for taking down..."
KenM47
Orpnhfr Ohssl naq gur erfg jrer nyy zvaq shpxrq.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> On 29.03.2006 21:12, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> To a lesser degree. The correct wordings should be "where Buffy is
> turned into an uncontributing victim." I loved The Witch. Victim, but
> still the hero. My problem with DMP is -well. I guess I should give up
> explaining it. But it is that 'turning Buff into a stupid child'-game. i
> guess it is the way the _others_ treat her: trying to squash her. of
> course, i do understand it would have been really boring if Only buff
> could have been the hero. But when the gang are heros, this should bee
> in "understanding" with the premise of the show.
Whereas that's one of the things I liked about DMP. Buffy's not only a
hero, she's also a person. That's by her own choice. She's better for
it, but it leads to a lot of responsibilities of different kinds to
juggle and a lot of expectations of different kinds to live up to.
> > I suppose when people spend that much time around vampires, they should
> > get better at knowing how to handle them, although maybe not to the
> > extent seen in the show.
>
> It is more of a Van Helsing-path. If that had worked, the Counsil should
> have been fighting with trained men now.
The Council isn't much for changes of plan, are they? There's been no
doubt that Slayers are better than plain soldiers, even when the latter
have some limited success.
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Qeviry. Gurer vf abg n fvatyr fuerq bs rivqrapr gung Ohssl jnfa'g va
pbzcyrgr pbzznaq bs ure snphygvrf - xabjvat, riraghnyyl, cerpvfryl jung
jnf tbvat ba. Jr abj guvf orpnhfr jrer JRER GBYQ. Svanyyl fur erzrzorerq
gung ure pnyyvat vf gb cebgrpg gur vaabprag naq ure pubvpr vf gb xrrc
gur cebzvfr fur znqr gb ure abj qrnq zbgure. Jr xabj fur znqr guvf
cebzvfr orpnhfr jr jrer FUBJA VG.
KenM47
There's really no point in this. It's just a bar fight. Let's just say
you're in Camp A. I'm in Camp B.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Eric Hunter
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 19: "Choices"
>
>> box should've been taken more seriously, not brushed aside so quickly
>> (even if Oz chose a cool way to end the discussion). I'll accept
>> that things are different in a universe that works according to a
>> Chosen One And Her Friends dynamic.
>
> Wesley, as per a prior discussion, is an agent of the Council. One
> life or many lives. Wesley, being the only one too *new* to build any
> emotional connections, states the obvious solutions. The fact that no
> one listens to him at this point speaks volumes about their driving
> force.
This is more than a, "The needs of the many, out
weigh the needs of the few" thing, though. It speaks
to the Council's Point-of-View. The Slayer (or any
individual) is not important. Stopping the Big Evil
is all that matters. If the Slayer dies, a new one will
be chosen. If an individual dies, but the Big Evil is
stopped, that's a win. It's not an unreasonable view,
but it is dehumanizing.
Eric.
--
hopelessly devoted
Exactly.
James Craine
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>So, the increasing tendency to let the Gang fight vampires -with
>>success- is highly annoying.
>
>
> a normal human hits someone in the chest with a wooden stake
> and they would be lucky to tickle the ribs
> its really hard to break through the bone and get deep into chest
>
> in most cases they dont plunge the stakes any farther than a rib gap anyway
Dark Shadows was more realistic. (Isn't that an awful
truth.) In that to stake a vampire required that the vamp.
be still and that the 'slayer' needed a mallet to drive the
stake.
James Craine
Vanya6724 wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
>>>So, the increasing tendency to let the Gang fight vampires -with
>>>success- is highly annoying.
>>
>>a normal human hits someone in the chest with a wooden stake
>>and they would be lucky to tickle the ribs
>>its really hard to break through the bone and get deep into chest
>>
>>in most cases they dont plunge the stakes any farther than a rib gap anyway
>
>
> The evidence on the show suggests that vampires are peculiarly
> vulnerable in the chestal area. I can accept that since they are
> supernatural beings. The fact that they instantly turn to dust after
> being staked suggests that vampires are very unstable beings, so any
> strength they have must be magical not really physical.
>
Then what do we need slayers for? She alone has the strength
to fight the vampire. Xman killed Jesse-vamp by accident.