AOQ Angel Review 1-19: "Sanctuary"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads
ANGEL
Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
(or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
two!")
Writers: Tim Minear and Joss Whedon
Director: Michael Lange
Good, Faith is in this one. That's all I wanted to know. In fact,
as it turns out, a lot of recurring characters are in this one.
Including Buffy. Seeing Gellar come up in the credits was quite a
surprise to me - was this publicized in advance or did they keep it
low-key?
This one's a loaded episode. A bit of stunt casting, maybe. The end
result is one of those shows that keeps hitting the viewer with plot
point after plot point, heavy moment after heavy moment (I'm
reminded, pleasantly, of "Consequences" in that regard). If a
moment or a line strikes you as slightly "off," just keep watching
and it'll be swept away by something you do like. I wouldn't want
every episode to be that way, but I tend to like those that are.
Overall, "Sanctuary" is captivating.
The teaser is one of the most effective in awhile, with Faith's
imagined attack on Angel. She's got a long way to go. Dushku is
incredible during the opening sequences (and during the whole episode,
and her entire time playing Faith, really), doing more with silence
than an actor should be capable of. Damaged Faith is simultaneously
fragile and menacing, and every second has the viewer obsessed with
trying to figure out what she's thinking at that moment. The scene
in which she teases walking out starts out as one of the weakest
moments in the episode (I can maybe allow a phrase like "out in that
darkness" once, but never twice in a row), but then it's fairly
impossible not to be moved by Faith's heartfelt "help me."
Random comments: 1) When she flashes back to BTVS scenes, it seems
mostly to be to killing the Deputy-Mayor in "Bad Girls," although
she did worse things later - guess the first one is the one that
sticks with you. 2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
Meanwhile, Kate is big into the paranormal investigations, and her
exchange with Kendrick is the funniest part of the episode.
"Everybody knows you've gone all Scully. Anytime one of these weird
cases crosses anyone's desk - you're always there. What's going on
with you?" "Scully is the skeptic." "Huh?" "Mulder is the believer.
Scully is the skeptic." [a moment of confused silence] "Scully is
the chick, right?"
Meanwhile, not even Angel's closest associates agree with him giving
Faith the chance he's giving her. The anti-Faith arguments are
compelling too, and the people who make them have both pragmatic and
personal reasons for doing so. Buffy will ultimately take up that
mantle, but Wesley is the most articulate voice for it in the early
going. The trust that's developed between him and his employer is
strained here, and the episode teases us with breaking it. I like how
he initially pushes away from the Annoying British Guys, but then looks
like he's entering an uneasy deal with them once they offer him what
he thought he was waiting for and make a few assurances about not
hurting Angel. But it turns out that he's the one who's playing
them. Wes has come such a long way as character in just a few
episodes. It's like he was in stasis until a few things just clicked
into place in his head. His reward this week is a genuinely fun
action-hero moment as he sticks it to the ABGs.
Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
in IWRY, so who knows?
Meanwhile, the L.M.s are none too pleased about their last assassin
joining the enemy, so they first hire one of the cooler looking, more
convincingly alien demons we've seen in awhile. Then Lindsey comes
up with a somewhat more creative idea: thinking inside the box. Of the
recurring lawyers, I think it's pretty clear now that he's the one
to be most worried about.
There's a nice bit of action back in Angel-land with the demonic
attack. The scene gives us an effective movement, within a few
seconds, from a Faith who's able to pass for 'normal' ("It was
touch and go for the four minutes you left me alone, but somehow I got
through it"), to a Slayer with a deadly weapon who's totally in her
element against a monster, to a scared guilt-ridden girl with bloody
hands again (of *course* this particular demon would bleed red). Angel
looks funny trying to fight with the flapping shirt. And that's
where we stand when Buffy enters.
I hadn't expected our two leads to meet again after "I Will
Remember You." But having them opposed and actually coming to blows
is new and different enough to make me happy. This intense scene is a
highlight in an episode filled with highlights. Buffy is cast in the
odd role of the adversary here, one of the strongest enemies
threatening to keep our hero from finally breaking through to his
damaged charge. But at the same time, who can't empathize with her
sense of betrayal after Angel hits her in defense of *Faith*, of all
people? Conflict between partially right and partially right, yo.
Another great line here: "A cry for help is when you say 'help' in a
loud voice."
Two other things that work about that moment - first, Angel's
"you're a little bit stronger than I am." Not only is it nice to
reminded of that, but this also helps us remember that our other Slayer
is also potentially stronger than Angel - worth keeping in mind,
given her history of not cooperating with people. Second is the way it
follows up on an earlier scene. Faith knows that she has to make
things right with B more than anyone, after how thoroughly she's
wronged her. Apologizing is the first step, but we spend some time
questioning whether she can d it, and be truly sorry. Then, a short
period of really hard thought later, when Buffy shows up all
threatening, Faith decides that she's not going to run from this,
that she's ready for the genuine apology they both need. She forces
down the impulse to lash out, steels herself for the last bit of
effort... and gets "apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
That, my friends, is some great fucking writing.
Less successful is the Slayers' conversation on the rooftop, and
Buffy's "noody else has ever made me a victim" speech. It
didn't feel right to me, not only because I'm not sure if it's
true (The Master? Angelus? Parker Abrams?), but because I don't
think it's necessary to assign a special motivation; Buffy's anger
spoke for itself. Fortunately, we follow that up with a classic
Buffster moment, as a second later she's fighting to protect Faith.
Always the Protector.
Something that confused me a little was why Joss and Tim gave us the
bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
This is where Kate gets pitted against her erstwhile vampire ally too.
It's a busy enough episode that we don't have that much time for
her, but this has to play with her head and ego. Taking sides of a
sort with someone she despises, and then seeing Faith's actions make
her "wrong" in the end... we'll see where the character goes from
here. Until now I'd assumed that she'd eventually end up coming
around to Angel's side as a full partner in evil-fighting. Which
still seems most likely, but this episode brings up some other
possibilities too. Good call, OBS.
The last B/A exchange didn't do so much for me, odd since I'm
normally such a fan of the two actors' chemistry. I think it's
more my issue rather than anything wrong with the scene, feeling
uncomfortable seeing them get so petty (Buffy comparing him to Riley,
etc.), however understandable. A telling character moment in this
scene: "It's *nice* you moved on. I can't." Yep, that's Angel
for you. And a botched moment too: Angel on living their separate
lives - "That was your idea, remember?" Um... dude, have you
even been watching your own shows?
And what other way to end could there be than Faith staring into space,
expression unreadable? Now we've ended this phase of the story.
I'm betting we'll see her again, but it's not so totally
essential anymore, and the show(s) now can and should hold off on
bringing her back until it seems appropriate. Things are sure to be a
little duller once we're back to the Faithless status quo, though.
Maybe Angel could visit her from time to time, a scene here and there?
The script is one of the extras on the DVD, and I scanned through it a
little. It's impressive how thoroughly Joss paints out the mood
he's going for; reading his scripts is like reading someone thinking
out loud. Stuff along the lines of "she's not quite in a fetal
position, but it's close."
And that brings us to 3 for 3 in _Angel_ episodes to feature Slayers.
Unlike some others, I loooove crossovers. They're exciting. Let the
shows complement each other, be part of a big, shared 'verse.
Obviously it's self-defeating to rely too much on _Buffy_ characters
to spice up _Angel_, but we're using them to such great effect that
complaints are futile. Character-wise, Angel and Wesley have benefited
as much from the Faith episodes as the viewer has.
So...
One-sentence summary: Still more stuff to haunt our thoughts for a long
time.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season One so far:
1) "City Of" - Good
2) "Lonely Hearts" - Weak
3) "Into The Dark" - Good
4) "I Fall To Pieces" - Good
5) "Rm W/ A Vu" - Decent
6) "Sense And Sensitivity" - Weak
7) "The Bachelor Party" - Decent
8) "I Will Remember You" - Excellent
9) "Hero" - Good
10) "Parting Gifts" - Decent
11) "Somnambulist" - Good
12) "Expecting" - Bad
13) "She" - Good
14) "I've Got You Under My Skin" - Decent
15) "The Prodigal" - Decent
16) "The Ring" - Decent
17) "Eternity" - Decent
18) "Five By Five" - Excellent
19) "Sanctuary" - Excellent]
drifter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
> (or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
> two!")
/snip/
> 19) "Sanctuary" - Excellent]
The episode that was so good that you reviewed it twice! At least
you came up with the same score each time.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
> (or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
> two!")
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> Good, Faith is in this one.
Mmmmm. Faith.
> Including Buffy.
What I didn't tell you when Where The Wilds Things Are was discussed:
I don't know if it is true, we will probably get it verified now, but I
have read that ep sucked so much because they needed to free up SMG.
And then WTWTA are forgiven. Sort of.
I didn't like the chopter, though. Very dramatic. Firing with
machineguns all over the place, a bit disturbing.
Also disturbing, but less annoying: They made Buff really bitchy in this
one. Of course, it is Angels world.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Come on! Haven't you got any better grades than that?
I mean. Faith. And Buffy. And even some Kate.
Actually, I mean that about better grades: this must be the best Angel
episode by now.
--
Espen
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Seeing Gellar come up in the credits was quite a
> surprise to me - was this publicized in advance or did they keep it
> low-key?
It was fairly well-known. Buffy's appearence was inevitable really,
once Faith showed up. It's also why "Where the Wild Things Are" was so
Buffy-lite. They were filming this at the same time.
> A bit of stunt casting, maybe.
A bit?
> Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
> the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
> flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
> in IWRY, so who knows?
Minear claims he wrote her out because he sincerely believed that's
what Cordelia would have done. Problem with that is Cordelia had never
bailed before (naq arire qvq ntnva yngre), and, well, she works for a
vampire who does this kind of thing on a fairly regulare basis, so his
excuse was... weak, let's say. Mine is a minority opinion, however.
> I hadn't expected our two leads to meet again after "I Will
> Remember You."
I had hoped we were done with them too. Alas...
> Something that confused me a little was why Joss and Tim gave us the
> bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
> stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
My working theory is ME paid for the helicopter and they were well
going to use it as much as possible.
> Unlike some others, I loooove crossovers.
Crossovers like "In the Dark" are fine. Crossovers wherein the rest of
_Angel_'s cast are pushed to the side to make room suck.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Well, hmm... I found this one to be a real let down after "Five by
Five." If there are penalties for only finding it to be servicable,
then I'll pay'em.
Terry
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> 2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
> that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
Standard military jargon for radio reception, five being the highest
rating on each scale of clarity and signal strength. In other words,
loud and clear, A-OK, fine, etc.
HWL
William George Ferguson
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
>(or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
>two!")
>Writers: Tim Minear and Joss Whedon
>Director: Michael Lange
>
>Good, Faith is in this one. That's all I wanted to know. In fact,
>as it turns out, a lot of recurring characters are in this one.
>Including Buffy. Seeing Gellar come up in the credits was quite a
>surprise to me - was this publicized in advance or did they keep it
>low-key?
I know I wasn't the only that held back on the reason SMG was so absent in
Where The Wild Things Are. This is where she was.
>This one's a loaded episode. A bit of stunt casting, maybe. The end
>result is one of those shows that keeps hitting the viewer with plot
>point after plot point, heavy moment after heavy moment (I'm
>reminded, pleasantly, of "Consequences" in that regard). If a
>moment or a line strikes you as slightly "off," just keep watching
>and it'll be swept away by something you do like. I wouldn't want
>every episode to be that way, but I tend to like those that are.
>Overall, "Sanctuary" is captivating.
>
>The teaser is one of the most effective in awhile, with Faith's
>imagined attack on Angel. She's got a long way to go.
It also mirrors her mental image of gutting Willow in Who Are You. This is
the way Faith's mind works now, and she may never be able to reverse it,
only, hopefully, contain it.
>Dushku is
>incredible during the opening sequences (and during the whole episode,
>and her entire time playing Faith, really),
and after, and before, going all the way back to hanging off the nose of
that Harrier in True Lies.
>doing more with silence
>than an actor should be capable of. Damaged Faith is simultaneously
>fragile and menacing, and every second has the viewer obsessed with
>trying to figure out what she's thinking at that moment. The scene
>in which she teases walking out starts out as one of the weakest
>moments in the episode (I can maybe allow a phrase like "out in that
>darkness" once, but never twice in a row), but then it's fairly
>impossible not to be moved by Faith's heartfelt "help me."
>
>Random comments: 1) When she flashes back to BTVS scenes, it seems
>mostly to be to killing the Deputy-Mayor in "Bad Girls," although
>she did worse things later - guess the first one is the one that
>sticks with you.
It was the defining step, that and her Lady Macbeth follow-up.
>2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
>that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
It means 'loud and clear' (old commo code rating a signal's strength and
clarity on a five point scale). Where Faith picked it up isn't explained,
maybe from watching "Aliens" or "Starship Troopers" or (because we've seen
her watching old movies) from some WWII combat movie like "Fighting
Leathernecks" or such. The meta-reason it became Faith's catch phrase is
known, Joss heard Dushku use it, and incorporated into Faith's dialogue.
>Meanwhile, Kate is big into the paranormal investigations, and her
>exchange with Kendrick is the funniest part of the episode.
>"Everybody knows you've gone all Scully. Anytime one of these weird
>cases crosses anyone's desk - you're always there. What's going on
>with you?" "Scully is the skeptic." "Huh?" "Mulder is the believer.
>Scully is the skeptic." [a moment of confused silence] "Scully is
>the chick, right?"
Just leaving it in to say 'I love that scene'.
>Meanwhile, not even Angel's closest associates agree with him giving
>Faith the chance he's giving her. The anti-Faith arguments are
>compelling too, and the people who make them have both pragmatic and
>personal reasons for doing so. Buffy will ultimately take up that
>mantle, but Wesley is the most articulate voice for it in the early
>going. The trust that's developed between him and his employer is
>strained here, and the episode teases us with breaking it. I like how
>he initially pushes away from the Annoying British Guys,
On the newsgroup, we ended up referring to them as Larry, Moe, and Curly.
Also, I don't remember if anyone mentioned this following your review of
Who Are You, but the lead one, Weatherby is played by Jeff Ricketts,
another Whedon Trifecta actor, his role on Firefly? "Two by two, hands of
blue." That makes three so far, with Carlos Jacott (Ken, the recipient of
Buffy's Gandhi impression; Richard, Doyle's ex-wife's fiancee, and Alliance
agent Lawrence Dobson in Serenity the Episode) and Andy Umberger (Anya's
boss D'Hoffryn in Doppelgangland and thereafter, the doctor with the
detachable body parts I Fall To Pieces, and the captain of the Alliance
crusier Dortmunder in Serenity the Episode)
>Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
>the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
>flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
>in IWRY, so who knows?
I blame Minear (and Minear actually admits to marginalizing Cordy in this
ep, see other responses). Basically Tim's a fine fellow and excellent
script writer, but he didn't 'get' Cordy, and basically wrote her badly
whenever he wrote her.
>Meanwhile, the L.M.s are none too pleased about their last assassin
>joining the enemy, so they first hire one of the cooler looking, more
>convincingly alien demons we've seen in awhile. Then Lindsey comes
>up with a somewhat more creative idea: thinking inside the box. Of the
>recurring lawyers, I think it's pretty clear now that he's the one
>to be most worried about.
Lee Mercer's rant made into various sig files, "This is getting ridiculous.
The first assassin kills the second assassin, sent to kill the first
assassin, who didn't assassinate anyone until we hired the second assassin
to assassinate the first assassin."
and Faith's response. Hands hanging loosely, making no attempt to defend
herself, "Go ahead." If that's what it takes to apologize, Faith accepts
it.
>Less successful is the Slayers' conversation on the rooftop, and
>Buffy's "noody else has ever made me a victim" speech. It
>didn't feel right to me, not only because I'm not sure if it's
>true (The Master? Angelus? Parker Abrams?), but because I don't
>think it's necessary to assign a special motivation; Buffy's anger
>spoke for itself. Fortunately, we follow that up with a classic
>Buffster moment, as a second later she's fighting to protect Faith.
>Always the Protector.
Buffy is totally P.O.d at Faith, don't expect to come up with rational
well-thought out reasons.
>Something that confused me a little was why Joss and Tim gave us the
>bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
>stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
Like someone else says, they had rented to copter, by God they were going
to use it.
>The last B/A exchange didn't do so much for me, odd since I'm
>normally such a fan of the two actors' chemistry. I think it's
>more my issue rather than anything wrong with the scene, feeling
>uncomfortable seeing them get so petty (Buffy comparing him to Riley,
>etc.), however understandable. A telling character moment in this
>scene: "It's *nice* you moved on. I can't." Yep, that's Angel
>for you. And a botched moment too: Angel on living their separate
>lives - "That was your idea, remember?" Um... dude, have you
>even been watching your own shows?
At this point Buffy and 'rational' don't even appear in the same chapter,
regarding Faith. Understandable, but not really pretty.
>And what other way to end could there be than Faith staring into space,
>expression unreadable?
The strength of it is the juxtaposition. We get Buffy's bitter parting
shot, "Faith wins again.", and immediately cut to Faith 'winning again'.
>Now we've ended this phase of the story.
This has been a hell of a ride, basically really starting in Revelations,
and ending with "I'd like to make a confession.
>
>One-sentence summary: Still more stuff to haunt our thoughts for a long
>time.
I'm kind of surprised that you didn't do a TISBILA. This one is just
perfect, both as humor and as pacing the heavy.
Faith: So, how does this work?
Angel: There's no real simple answer to that. I won't lie to you and tell
you it'll be easy, because it won't be. Just because you've decided to
change doesn't mean the world's ready for you to. The truth is... no matter
how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up
for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale. The only thing I
can promise you is that you'll probably be haunted... and maybe for the
rest of your life.
Faith: (nods at microwave) So how does This work?
Aangel: Uh... power level, time, start.
>AOQ rating: Excellent
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
> (or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
> two!")
> Writers: Tim Minear and Joss Whedon
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> Good, Faith is in this one. That's all I wanted to know. In fact,
> as it turns out, a lot of recurring characters are in this one.
> Including Buffy. Seeing Gellar come up in the credits was quite a
> surprise to me - was this publicized in advance or did they keep it
> low-key?
Gellar's appearance here was well hyped at the time.
> Random comments: 1) When she flashes back to BTVS scenes, it seems
> mostly to be to killing the Deputy-Mayor in "Bad Girls," although
> she did worse things later - guess the first one is the one that
> sticks with you.
And maybe they don't want to remind the fans of her cold blooded murder
of Lester Worth, just the killing of Finch, which was more of an
accident, and therefor more forgivable.
> 2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
> that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
It's a radio check phrase. One side asks "how are you reading me?" and
the other side answers something like "two by three" or "four by two"
with the two numbers being rankings for loudness and clarity, on a scale
of one to five, so "five by five" is the best reception meaning loud and
clear.
> I like how
> he initially pushes away from the Annoying British Guys, but then looks
> like he's entering an uneasy deal with them once they offer him what
> he thought he was waiting for and make a few assurances about not
> hurting Angel. But it turns out that he's the one who's playing
> them. Wes has come such a long way as character in just a few
> episodes. It's like he was in stasis until a few things just clicked
> into place in his head. His reward this week is a genuinely fun
> action-hero moment as he sticks it to the ABGs.
Have there been any British Guys (or girls) in these shows who *didn't*
start out as annoying? Even Giles annoyed Buffy at the start. To
distinguish these guys from all the other annoying Brits on the show,
last time around we dubbed them "The Three Stooges."
> Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
> the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
> flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
> in IWRY, so who knows?
This episode provided a lot of fodder for the supposed Sarah/Charisma
feud.
> And what other way to end could there be than Faith staring into space,
> expression unreadable? Now we've ended this phase of the story.
> I'm betting we'll see her again, but it's not so totally
> essential anymore, and the show(s) now can and should hold off on
> bringing her back until it seems appropriate. Things are sure to be a
> little duller once we're back to the Faithless status quo, though.
> Maybe Angel could visit her from time to time, a scene here and there?
Unir lbh orra ybbxvat nurnq, ntnva?
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Yep, but I'm sad to say that IMHO this is as good as Angel ever gets.
This pair of episodes is the best they ever do. They never get it this
right again.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
It wasn't the presence of the helicopter AOQ was questioning. It was
why was Angel the one to jump into it, while Buffy and Faith just stand
there doing nothing, after establishing in earlier dialogue that Buffy
is stronger than him.
The answer: It's Angel's show. If this had happened back in Sunnydale,
Buffy'd be the one doing the jumping.
eli...@gmail.com
>This pair of episodes is the best they ever do. They never get it this
>right again.
I'll happily disagree! :)
(Not that I don't adore these two episodes, mind you. But to me,
they're just the beginning!)
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148303935.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
> (or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
> two!")
> Writers: Tim Minear and Joss Whedon
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> The last B/A exchange didn't do so much for me, odd since I'm
> normally such a fan of the two actors' chemistry. I think it's
> more my issue rather than anything wrong with the scene, feeling
> uncomfortable seeing them get so petty (Buffy comparing him to Riley,
> etc.), however understandable. A telling character moment in this
> scene: "It's *nice* you moved on. I can't." Yep, that's Angel
> for you. And a botched moment too: Angel on living their separate
> lives - "That was your idea, remember?" Um... dude, have you
> even been watching your own shows?
>
idea (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1338), and maybe even Wilkin's
"fatherly" advice (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1373). Remember the
"one-way" phone from LA to Sunnydale at the end of AtS "City Of"
(http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4447)? He clearly still hadn't "moved
on" at the time of "Sanctuary". Angel being "petty" was "right on" because
Buffy's appearance in "Sanctuary" was just another reminder of that
extra-day-burden that was clearly tearing him from the inside.
<rest snipped>
==(Harmony) Watcher==
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>Random comments: 1) When she flashes back to BTVS scenes, it seems
>mostly to be to killing the Deputy-Mayor in "Bad Girls," although
>she did worse things later - guess the first one is the one that
>sticks with you. 2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
>that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
1) Because that was an accidental killing, and they don't want to
remind us of the non-accidental murders by her?
2) It's ham radio shorthand in the days when there were two meters on
the radio, I think both went to 5. 5X5 meant a strong clear signal -
as good as it gets.
>
>Meanwhile, Kate is big into the paranormal investigations, and her
>exchange with Kendrick is the funniest part of the episode.
>"Everybody knows you've gone all Scully. Anytime one of these weird
>cases crosses anyone's desk - you're always there. What's going on
>with you?" "Scully is the skeptic." "Huh?" "Mulder is the believer.
>Scully is the skeptic." [a moment of confused silence] "Scully is
>the chick, right?"
I thought Kate was becoming more and more interesting. But contrast
this with everyone knowing about the demon fights in The Ring and LAPD
is coming across generally more stupid than the Sunnydale police.
<SNIP>
>But it turns out that he's the one who's playing
>them. Wes has come such a long way as character in just a few
>episodes. It's like he was in stasis until a few things just clicked
>into place in his head. His reward this week is a genuinely fun
>action-hero moment as he sticks it to the ABGs.
Yes Wes' development was also very interesting. Like I said for the
prior ep, after the torture moment he can no longer be a buffoon. Same
kind of hero mantle to Giles in Becoming 2 when he was tortured.
>
>Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
>the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
>flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
>in IWRY, so who knows?
No, they didn't. At no time are both faces in the same shot IIRC.
<SNIP>
>
>I hadn't expected our two leads to meet again after "I Will
>Remember You." But having them opposed and actually coming to blows
>is new and different enough to make me happy. This intense scene is a
>highlight in an episode filled with highlights. Buffy is cast in the
>odd role of the adversary here, one of the strongest enemies
>threatening to keep our hero from finally breaking through to his
>damaged charge. But at the same time, who can't empathize with her
>sense of betrayal after Angel hits her in defense of *Faith*, of all
>people? Conflict between partially right and partially right, yo.
>Another great line here: "A cry for help is when you say 'help' in a
>loud voice."
Buffy's seeming selfishness here bothered me, but then again only
Angel and we knew about the magical undone day. Still, she's all over
Riley and yet SHE plays the jealousy card, and clearly is wrong in
doing so. I saw no sexual spark between Angel and Faith, none at all.
>
<SNIP>
>
>The last B/A exchange didn't do so much for me, odd since I'm
>normally such a fan of the two actors' chemistry. I think it's
>more my issue rather than anything wrong with the scene, feeling
>uncomfortable seeing them get so petty (Buffy comparing him to Riley,
>etc.), however understandable. A telling character moment in this
>scene: "It's *nice* you moved on. I can't." Yep, that's Angel
>for you. And a botched moment too: Angel on living their separate
>lives - "That was your idea, remember?" Um... dude, have you
>even been watching your own shows?
Petulance seems so wrong for Buffy as we know her now with Riley and
all.
>
>And what other way to end could there be than Faith staring into space,
>expression unreadable?
Hmmm? Sanctuary perhaps? Peace of mind in finally confessing and
accepting punishment?
>Now we've ended this phase of the story.
>I'm betting we'll see her again, but it's not so totally
>essential anymore, and the show(s) now can and should hold off on
>bringing her back until it seems appropriate. Things are sure to be a
>little duller once we're back to the Faithless status quo, though.
>Maybe Angel could visit her from time to time, a scene here and there?
>
>The script is one of the extras on the DVD, and I scanned through it a
>little. It's impressive how thoroughly Joss paints out the mood
>he's going for; reading his scripts is like reading someone thinking
>out loud. Stuff along the lines of "she's not quite in a fetal
>position, but it's close."
>
>And that brings us to 3 for 3 in _Angel_ episodes to feature Slayers.
>Unlike some others, I loooove crossovers. They're exciting. Let the
>shows complement each other, be part of a big, shared 'verse.
>Obviously it's self-defeating to rely too much on _Buffy_ characters
>to spice up _Angel_, but we're using them to such great effect that
>complaints are futile. Character-wise, Angel and Wesley have benefited
>as much from the Faith episodes as the viewer has.
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Still more stuff to haunt our thoughts for a long
>time.
>
>AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Agreed. Also as to the crossovers. It's why I enjoyed Angel as an
extension of the Buffyverse, not as the Angelverse.
Ken (Brooklyn)
gree...@gmail.com
In the overarching question of why ~anybody~ had to jump into the
helicopter, the answer is ME paid for the helicopter and they were
going to use it as much as possible.
Terry
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>
>> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
>Yep, but I'm sad to say that IMHO this is as good as Angel ever gets.
>This pair of episodes is the best they ever do. They never get it this
>right again.
Really? I can think of a season 2 arc I like as much.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
Actually, I think he's referring to the conversation in IWRY once the
day was undone.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
You know, I think this whats-to-come stuff is what AOQ has asked us not
to do in this threads.
Of course, you can not listen to that request if you want to.
But it is very easy to give leads when you start to to this.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
KenM47
I don't think saying what I said is a spoiler in any definition of the
word.
Ken (Brooklyn)
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-B727C8...@news.giganews.com...
Slayers? Perhaps Angel was an unusual vampire in that he was able to jump
higher than most Slayers. How? Because "stronger overall" does not
necessarily mean stronger leg muscles. Or perhaps Slayers just don't like
"heights" that much, or being an "undead" gives a psychological advantage to
Angel to take more risks?
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
They had to do something about it. They had the guy up there shooting
at them. They had to stop him somehow.
And the helicopter was probably rented by the hour, or something like
that. They more they did with it, the more it cost them.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Espen Schjønberg" <ess...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:e4sivh$gpn$1...@readme.uio.no...
> On 22.05.2006 15:18, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> > episodes in these review threads
> >
> >
> > ANGEL
> > Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
> > (or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
> > two!")
> > Writers: Tim Minear and Joss Whedon
> > Director: Michael Lange
> >
> > Good, Faith is in this one.
>
> Mmmmm. Faith.
>
> > Including Buffy.
>
> What I didn't tell you when Where The Wilds Things Are was discussed:
>
> I don't know if it is true, we will probably get it verified now, but I
> have read that ep sucked so much because they needed to free up SMG.
>
> And then WTWTA are forgiven. Sort of.
>
> I didn't like the chopter, though. Very dramatic. Firing with
> machineguns all over the place, a bit disturbing.
>
scenes felt "off". I'll chalk it up to the "villains who fire machine guns
are always idiots" syndrome.
==Harmony Watcher==
Sam
Don Sample wrote:
>
> It wasn't the presence of the helicopter AOQ was questioning. It was
> why was Angel the one to jump into it, while Buffy and Faith just stand
> there doing nothing, after establishing in earlier dialogue that Buffy
> is stronger than him.
>
> The answer: It's Angel's show. If this had happened back in Sunnydale,
> Buffy'd be the one doing the jumping.
>
There's also a practical, in-story reason, though. Buffy and Faith had
to try to stay under cover. All it would take is for one of those
bullets to actually hit them, and they're out of the fight at best,
dead at worst.
Angel, being a vampire, has the advantage of bullets just hurting like
a motherfucker. So he can do things like a running jump toward a
helicopter with machine guns firing out of it much more safely.
--Sam
Mike Zeares
Don Sample wrote:
>
> Yep, but I'm sad to say that IMHO this is as good as Angel ever gets.
> This pair of episodes is the best they ever do. They never get it this
> right again.
I will also happily disagree with this. These two eps are very good,
but I think there are better ones throughout the run of the series.
5x5/Sanctuary stand out because the rest of S1 is mostly lackluster.
-- Mike Zeares
George W Harris
<nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
:> I didn't like the chopter, though. Very dramatic. Firing with
:> machineguns all over the place, a bit disturbing.
:>
:I also didn't like the scenes with the machine guns. The executions of those
:scenes felt "off". I'll chalk it up to the "villains who fire machine guns
:are always idiots" syndrome.
I remember thinking that the Watcher's Council
uses the same school of marksmanship as the Imperial
Stormtroopers.
:
:==Harmony Watcher==
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
HeKS
Buffy may be physically stronger than him to some degree (though we don't
know exactly how much), but I don't think that necessarily means the she has
all of his strengths. Maybe my memory is failing me, but I don't recall
seeing her do crazy feats of jumping before. On the other hand, I think we
did see Angel do some nice jumping work in Sumnambulist ... but I haven't
seen it in quite a while so it may have been another episode.
So basically, Buffy may not be able to jump like that ... even if she could
beat him in an arm wrestle ... or maybe her punch just has a higher psi
rating and that's how she's stronger.
HeKS
(Harmony) Watcher
"KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:pp6472pd9garlro0e...@4ax.com...
Quote from "Sanctuary" (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=3220):
...
ANGEL: Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul.
That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it. That was your idea,
remember? We stay away from each other.
...
Unquote.
Quote from "IWRY" (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=3191)
...
(White flash dissolves to Angel's office the previous day.)
BUFFY: So, then let's just stick to the plan. Keep our distance until time
has passed. Given enough time - we should be able to..
ANGEL: Forget.
BUFFY: Yeah. So - I'm gonna go - start forgetting.
...
Unquote
That's what Angel meant in "Sanctuary" when he said it was *Buffy's* idea.
Of course Angel was not entirely truthful in that regard but he could not
reveal what had transpired in that "lost" day he shared with Buffy. But as
far as Buffy would know, it was her idea.
So even though Angel was less than truthful when he blurted out "that was
your idea", his lines clearly showed that he hadn't "moved on". And "being
petty" is a good way to show how it must be tearing Angel up inside so much
so that he couldn't think straight and that he lost control of his cool and
objective of wanting the best for Buffy:
Quote (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=3220)
BUFFY: I have someone in my life now. That I love. It's not what you and I
had. It's very new. You know what makes it new? I trust him. I know him.
ANGEL: That's great. It's nice... you moved on. I can't. You found someone
new. I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again, it cuts me up inside and
the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore, so don't come
down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. Go
home!
Unquote
And of course we saw how he regretted the outburst right afterwards in the
same scene. He was clearly still being torn apart inside by the secret of
the extra-day burden and the secret of Joyce's command, both of which Buffy
had no knowledge about.
==Harmony Watcher==
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Random comments: 1) When she flashes back to BTVS scenes, it seems
> mostly to be to killing the Deputy-Mayor in "Bad Girls," although
> she did worse things later - guess the first one is the one that
> sticks with you. 2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
> that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
It's military/police jargon. It started out as a way of checking the
signal strength and clarity of radio transmissions. The scale was one to
five, five being the strongest and clearest. Therefore if someone was
coming in loud and clear, you'd say "I have you five by five." If they
were loud but staticky (sp?), it might be five by three or five by one.
And if they were clear but faint, then it'd be two by five, etc. My
agency (I'm a cop) still uses "five by five" when we do our radio checks.
Eventually, the term evolved into more general use to mean "everything's
cool" or "eveything's fine".
So when Willow says "That's the thing, no one knows," it's not quite
accurate. None of them may know but I bet if she'd asked Riley, he could
have told her.
> Less successful is the Slayers' conversation on the rooftop, and
> Buffy's "noody else has ever made me a victim" speech. It
> didn't feel right to me
Weird. I thought it was one of the most powerful of all of Buffy's
soliloquies. (The other being her threat to Walsh over the TV monitors
about the professor really not knowing what a Slayer is and how she's
about to find out.)
KenM47
When I rewatched the scene, I thought SMG played it, the "I have
someone in my life now. That I love" as a spiteful weapon to wound
(naq ol gur jnl, jr xabj fur arire gbyq be gryyf Evyrl gung fur ybirq
uvz).
Angel reacts defensively, IMO.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
I thought "Reunion", "Salvage", "Release" and "Orpheus" were at least as
good.
Naq "Qnzntr" jnf n pbagraqre. Vs vg unqa'g orra n Frnfba 5 rcvfbqr
srnghevat Fcvxr (naq rira jbefr, Naqerj), vg zvtug unir fpberq orggre.
Rirel gvzr V jngpu na rcvfbqr bs "Ahzo3ef" naq V frr Aniv Enjng, V guvax
bs Qnan gur Cflpubgvp Fynlre.
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
I agree. It reveals nothing about future plot developments.
Stephen Tempest
>Buffy's seeming selfishness here bothered me, but then again only
>Angel and we knew about the magical undone day. Still, she's all over
>Riley and yet SHE plays the jealousy card, and clearly is wrong in
>doing so. I saw no sexual spark between Angel and Faith, none at all.
Me neither - but then, we saw the whole thing. Buffy came in just at
the right moment to see Angel with his shirt off giving Faith a
cuddle...
(And don't forget what happened in Enemies, either. Buffy has issues
with watching Faith and Angel kiss in front of her, even when it was
her idea in the first place.)
>>And what other way to end could there be than Faith staring into space,
>>expression unreadable?
>
>Hmmm? Sanctuary perhaps? Peace of mind in finally confessing and
>accepting punishment?
I agree. To my eyes, she looks serene, and there's just the hint of a
smile forming on her lips.
Of course, having read the shooting script also helps with the
interpretation. <g>
It felt like a fitting end to Faith's story to me*. She's found
peace, and is on the path to redemption - not least because she
finally found someone who had faith in _her_.
*Which isn't to say there can't be other stories told about her. Or
not. Who knows? (Apart from the people who've seen the rest of the
series and know if she *does* appear again, of course...)
Stephen
(Harmony) Watcher
"HeKS" <he...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tGpcg.821$%Z2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
(Bionic Woman style).
==Harmony Watcher==
BTR1701
"HeKS" <he...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Buffy may be physically stronger than him to some degree (though we don't
> know exactly how much), but I don't think that necessarily means the she has
> all of his strengths. Maybe my memory is failing me, but I don't recall
> seeing her do crazy feats of jumping before. On the other hand, I think we
> did see Angel do some nice jumping work in Sumnambulist ... but I haven't
> seen it in quite a while so it may have been another episode.
>
> So basically, Buffy may not be able to jump like that ... even if she could
> beat him in an arm wrestle ... or maybe her punch just has a higher psi
> rating and that's how she's stronger.
Obgu Snvgu naq Natryhf jrer yrncvat nebhaq yvxr n ershtrrf sebz gur frg
bs "Pebhpuvat Gvtre" va "Eryrnfr". Fb vs Snvgu pna qb vg, vg'f fnsr gb
nffhzr Ohssl pna nf jryy.
(Harmony) Watcher
==Harmony Watcher==
Michael Ikeda
news:otq37295922jagds1...@4ax.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>>episodes in these review threads
>>
>>
>>ANGEL
>>Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
>>(or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
>>two!")
>>Writers: Tim Minear and Joss Whedon
>>Director: Michael Lange
>
>>2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
>>that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
>
> It means 'loud and clear' (old commo code rating a signal's
> strength and clarity on a five point scale). Where Faith picked
> it up isn't explained, maybe from watching "Aliens" or "Starship
> Troopers" or (because we've seen her watching old movies) from
> some WWII combat movie like "Fighting Leathernecks" or such.
> The meta-reason it became Faith's catch phrase is known, Joss
> heard Dushku use it, and incorporated into Faith's dialogue.
>
On the subject of jargon. After Wesley hits one of the "Council's
Elite" with the syringe (by throwing it at him), he says "one
eighty". Am I correct in thinking that a reference to some sort of
high score in darts?
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Eric Hunter
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>> episodes in these review threads
>>
>> ANGEL
>> Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
>> 2) Another mention of "five by five." What does
>> that mean?! You're killing me here, show.
>
> It means 'loud and clear' (old commo code rating a signal's strength
> and clarity on a five point scale). Where Faith picked it up isn't
> explained, maybe from watching "Aliens" or "Starship Troopers" or
> (because we've seen her watching old movies) from some WWII combat
> movie like "Fighting Leathernecks" or such. The meta-reason it
> became Faith's catch phrase is known, Joss heard Dushku use it, and
> incorporated into Faith's dialogue.
That's the denotation and origin of the phrase, but it also is
the best signal "rating" possible, and in Faith-speak it means
she is the "best she can be" and the best possible.
Michael Ikeda wrote:
>
> On the subject of jargon. After Wesley hits one of the "Council's
> Elite" with the syringe (by throwing it at him), he says "one
> eighty". Am I correct in thinking that a reference to some sort
> of high score in darts?
Yes, a dart-board is divided into 20 wedges, numbered from 1 to
20 surrounding the bulls-eye.there is a narrow 1/4" band half-way
from the bull to the outer edge that scores double the value of
the wedge, and another 1/4" band at the outer edge of the board
that scores triple points, so, a triple 20 is worth 60 points, and
three of them in a single round (three darts) is worth 180. You
can't score higher.
Eric
--
drifter
She once did a standing jump over the school fence - can't
remember which episode. It looked to be at least eight feet
tall, maybe more, so she *can* jump. Higher than me, anyway.
The main difference is, I think, that the Angel fight coordinators
did a lot more jumping around in their action scenes, simple as that.
The Buffy crew liked more actual martial arts, probably because
DB is much bulkier than SMG, so her fighting style is more dance-
like, while his is more power oriented.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
William George Ferguson
In Lie to Me, she takes a two-step start, and, using a table as a launch
platform, leaps about ten feet up and twenty feet across to the balcony to
grab Dru.
In Earshot, she does a polaris missile impression equal to Angel's leap to
the helicopter, when she runs up the stone bannister and catapults to the
roof gutter, to get to Jonathan.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
drifter
Possibly, but it would take 3 darts to hit 180; 3 triple-20's. Did he
throw two others?
drifter
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 20:46:21 GMT, "\(Harmony\) Watcher"
> <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
>>> I didn't like the chopter, though. Very dramatic. Firing with
>>> machineguns all over the place, a bit disturbing.
>>>
>> I also didn't like the scenes with the machine guns. The executions
>> of those scenes felt "off". I'll chalk it up to the "villains who
>> fire machine guns are always idiots" syndrome.
>
> I remember thinking that the Watcher's Council
> uses the same school of marksmanship as the Imperial
> Stormtroopers.
"And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only
Imperial stormtroopers are so precise-- "
According to Ben, at least. For the rest of the movies, they
were replaced by the A-Team.
(Harmony) Watcher
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:u5f47293ssgo807l1...@4ax.com...
> In Earshot, she does a polaris missile impression equal to Angel's leap to
> the helicopter, when she runs up the stone bannister and catapults to the
> roof gutter, to get to Jonathan.
>
Yes, now I remembered this one, but somehow I did not remember it as
impressive as Angel's jump. So time to re-watch another one.
Thanks for the correction.
==Harmony Watcher==
drifter
Actually, it's the other way 'round.
> so, a triple 20 is worth 60 points, and
> three of them in a single round (three darts) is worth 180. You
> can't score higher.
>
> Eric
--
Kel
Michael Ikeda
Michael Ikeda
news:Gnrcg.521$my....@fe04.lga:
>
> The main difference is, I think, that the Angel fight
> coordinators did a lot more jumping around in their action
> scenes, simple as that. The Buffy crew liked more actual martial
> arts, probably because DB is much bulkier than SMG, so her
> fighting style is more dance- like, while his is more power
> oriented.
>
Also perhaps because Sarah had several years of training in martial
arts.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> I don't know if it is true, we will probably get it verified now, but I
> have read that ep sucked so much because they needed to free up SMG.
>
> And then WTWTA are forgiven. Sort of.
But the scenes of WTWTA that Buffy was in supplied a full epiosde's
worth of suck.
> > AOQ rating: Excellent
>
> Come on! Haven't you got any better grades than that?
>
> I mean. Faith. And Buffy. And even some Kate.
>
> Actually, I mean that about better grades: this must be the best Angel
> episode by now.
I think this is the first time I've been criticized for an Excellent
rating being too low.
As for best episode so far, "Five By Five" was a little bit better than
this one. Just for the record.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> (White flash dissolves to Angel's office the previous day.)
> BUFFY: So, then let's just stick to the plan. Keep our distance until time
> has passed. Given enough time - we should be able to..
> ANGEL: Forget.
> BUFFY: Yeah. So - I'm gonna go - start forgetting.
> ...
> Unquote
>
> That's what Angel meant in "Sanctuary" when he said it was *Buffy's* idea.
> Of course Angel was not entirely truthful in that regard but he could not
> reveal what had transpired in that "lost" day he shared with Buffy. But as
> far as Buffy would know, it was her idea.
"Stick to the plan" of Angel moving somewhere else and them not
meeting. That plan was all Angel (after, as you mentioned, considering
what Joyce and Wilkins had said).
-AOQ
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> "drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote in
> news:Bprcg.523$my....@fe04.lga:
>
> > Michael Ikeda wrote:
>
> >> On the subject of jargon. After Wesley hits one of the
> >> "Council's Elite" with the syringe (by throwing it at him), he
> >> says "one eighty". Am I correct in thinking that a reference
> >> to some sort of high score in darts?
> >
> > Possibly, but it would take 3 darts to hit 180; 3 triple-20's.
> > Did he throw two others?
> >
>
> No. Just the one syringe.
180 is the highest score you can get from a single turn in darts. It
requires three hits in the triple-20. So technically, Wes couldn't have
scored a 180 with his one shot.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> Have there been any British Guys (or girls) in these shows who *didn't*
> start out as annoying? Even Giles annoyed Buffy at the start.
I wouldn't call him annoying, though, since he was one of the best
parts of WTTH. Buffy just wasn't in the mood for a Watcher. But yeah,
the show does have a high proportion of annoying and initially-annoying
British types. Other exceptions include Spike, and maybe Olivia.
> Yep, but I'm sad to say that IMHO this is as good as Angel ever gets.
> This pair of episodes is the best they ever do. They never get it this
> right again.
Sad thought. Well, I'll get back to you with an agreement or
disagreement sometime next year.
-AOQ
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <rY6dnaR5S5O...@rcn.net>,
> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > "drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote in
> > news:Bprcg.523$my....@fe04.lga:
> >
> > > Michael Ikeda wrote:
> >
> > >> On the subject of jargon. After Wesley hits one of the
> > >> "Council's Elite" with the syringe (by throwing it at him), he
> > >> says "one eighty". Am I correct in thinking that a reference
> > >> to some sort of high score in darts?
> > >
> > > Possibly, but it would take 3 darts to hit 180; 3 triple-20's.
> > > Did he throw two others?
> > >
> >
> > No. Just the one syringe.
>
> 180 is the highest score you can get from a single turn in darts. It
> requires three hits in the triple-20. So technically, Wes couldn't have
> scored a 180 with his one shot.
Well, as long as we're being technical, he didn't hit a dart board,
either. The 180 is symbolic. It's like when someone says they scored a
home run. No one expects the person to actually run the non-existent
bases.
He knocked the bad guy out with one shot, that's all.
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> 18) "Five By Five" - Excellent
> 19) "Sanctuary" - Excellent]
I'd be interested in what you see as the differences between these 2
episodes and This Years Girl and Who Are You both of which you rated
Good.
--
You can't stop the signal
One Bit Shy
news:1148303935.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 19: "Sanctuary")
> (or "ATS episodes with one Slayer have been good, so let's do
> two!")
> This one's a loaded episode. A bit of stunt casting, maybe. The end
> result is one of those shows that keeps hitting the viewer with plot
> point after plot point, heavy moment after heavy moment (I'm
> reminded, pleasantly, of "Consequences" in that regard).
Joss has a tendency to pack his episodes. He can be very efficient with the
elements without leaving you feeling that you're missing something. It can
feel a little helter skelter juggling so many ideas, but he usually manages
to keep it hanging together anyway. It's a feature of his that I rather
like. But I think you're right that it wouldn't be so good all of the time.
> The teaser is one of the most effective in awhile, with Faith's
> imagined attack on Angel. She's got a long way to go. Dushku is
> incredible during the opening sequences (and during the whole episode,
> and her entire time playing Faith, really), doing more with silence
> than an actor should be capable of. Damaged Faith is simultaneously
> fragile and menacing, and every second has the viewer obsessed with
> trying to figure out what she's thinking at that moment.
Exactly. And it always has been thus. The mystery of what moves Faith
fascinates and baffles everybody. A huge part of what makes me love the
character.
> The scene
> in which she teases walking out starts out as one of the weakest
> moments in the episode (I can maybe allow a phrase like "out in that
> darkness" once, but never twice in a row), but then it's fairly
> impossible not to be moved by Faith's heartfelt "help me."
Honestly, I couldn't even get it back with the "help me". The machine guns
that couldn't hit anything was probably weaker, but this matters more.
Hence it bothers me more. The idea for the moment is right - so the
situation can still carry the story. But the lines are terrible and it
comes off very forced.
> Random comments: 1) When she flashes back to BTVS scenes, it seems
> mostly to be to killing the Deputy-Mayor in "Bad Girls," although
> she did worse things later - guess the first one is the one that
> sticks with you.
Because the first one changed her more than the others.
And I suppose there's only so many flashbacks they want to do. Got to keep
some coherency.
> Meanwhile, Kate is big into the paranormal investigations, and her
> exchange with Kendrick is the funniest part of the episode.
> "Everybody knows you've gone all Scully. Anytime one of these weird
> cases crosses anyone's desk - you're always there. What's going on
> with you?" "Scully is the skeptic." "Huh?" "Mulder is the believer.
> Scully is the skeptic." [a moment of confused silence] "Scully is
> the chick, right?"
I laughed a long time for that. And for Lee's assassin rant.
> Wes has come such a long way as character in just a few
> episodes. It's like he was in stasis until a few things just clicked
> into place in his head. His reward this week is a genuinely fun
> action-hero moment as he sticks it to the ABGs.
I agree. A new man. I wonder if Wesley will ever understand (or
appreciate) that Faith was the mechanism to transforming him for the
better....Or, for that matter, if Faith will ever have the chance to know
that.
> Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
> the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
> flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
> in IWRY, so who knows?
I suppose they had too many characters to juggle as it was. But the moment
plays odd to me. I'm sure Faith's elbow to the face kinda sucked, but Cordy
has endured a lot of bad things. Aside from that brief encounter, when else
has she had dealings with Faith? I'm not remembering anything between them.
> And that's
> where we stand when Buffy enters.
As usual, I didn't notice the credits, so this blew my mind. What a moment
to walk in. And the expression on her face...
> I hadn't expected our two leads to meet again after "I Will
> Remember You." But having them opposed and actually coming to blows
> is new and different enough to make me happy. This intense scene is a
> highlight in an episode filled with highlights. Buffy is cast in the
> odd role of the adversary here, one of the strongest enemies
> threatening to keep our hero from finally breaking through to his
> damaged charge. But at the same time, who can't empathize with her
> sense of betrayal after Angel hits her in defense of *Faith*, of all
> people? Conflict between partially right and partially right, yo.
> Another great line here: "A cry for help is when you say 'help' in a
> loud voice."
I'm still thinking of all the undercurrents that must have been flowing
through that moment, all interacting wildly, and can't get them all
straight. Makes me really appreciate Buffy's line, "You actually think that
I can form a thought right now?"
I also rather like, "So you decided to punish her with a severe cuddling."
> Second is the way it
> follows up on an earlier scene. Faith knows that she has to make
> things right with B more than anyone, after how thoroughly she's
> wronged her. Apologizing is the first step, but we spend some time
> questioning whether she can d it, and be truly sorry. Then, a short
> period of really hard thought later, when Buffy shows up all
> threatening, Faith decides that she's not going to run from this,
> that she's ready for the genuine apology they both need. She forces
> down the impulse to lash out, steels herself for the last bit of
> effort... and gets "apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
> That, my friends, is some great fucking writing.
The peak of the episode for me. Including Faith's follow-up, "Go ahead."
And don't forget that there's another tie in to the apology sequence. The
first time Faith says she's sorry, it's for telling Angel about Riley. That
knowledge greatly informs this scene too.
> Less successful is the Slayers' conversation on the rooftop, and
> Buffy's "noody else has ever made me a victim" speech. It
> didn't feel right to me, not only because I'm not sure if it's
> true (The Master? Angelus? Parker Abrams?), but because I don't
> think it's necessary to assign a special motivation; Buffy's anger
> spoke for itself.
Since by most standards she has been a victim other times, it is a little
odd. But it makes me wonder what the thinking is. I don't think the line
is by accident. I can imagine that Buffy might refuse to accept being a
victim in the other instances. She fought back. They paid. Perhaps it
goes to Buffy's attitude at the end that Faith won again. *We* know how
badly hurt Faith is, and that winning would not be the right description of
what she's accomplished. And to a significant extent, Angel knows that too.
But does Buffy?
I don't know. But the exchange doesn't end with that.
Faith: "And you can't stand that. You're all about control. You have no
idea what it's like on the other side! Where nothing's in control, nothing
makes sense! There is just pain and hate and nothing you do means anything.
You can't even.."
Buffy: "Shut up!"
The expression on Buffy's face when she says, "Shut up!" suggests to me that
Faith was hitting home somehow, though more in line with she really does
understand and doesn't want to admit it.
I don't quite know what's going on there, but it brings to mind how I always
think of them as sisters - and how I think Buffy specifically can't stop
thinking of Faith as a sister. There's always been a link between them.
They've always been inside each other's heads more than they can handle
sometimes.
So even though I don't quite get it all, I still like this exchange.
> Fortunately, we follow that up with a classic
> Buffster moment, as a second later she's fighting to protect Faith.
> Always the Protector.
Buffster? Please don't keep that up.
I'm glad you pointed that out. I had noted the irony of Buffy having to
defend Faith then. But I couldn't figure out why it felt so right. And you
nailed it. She's The Slayer. Of course.
> Something that confused me a little was why Joss and Tim gave us the
> bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
> stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
Yes. And his show. But I think it also serves to show Faith that he'll
literally fight for her. The fight itself kind of sucks, but I believe it's
the last piece for motivating Faith. Faith must have been fighting an
overwhelming sense of unreality throughout the time with Angel. But here
she watches both Buffy and Angel put their lives on the line for her.
Probably overwhelming itself in another way, but very real none the less.
> This is where Kate gets pitted against her erstwhile vampire ally too.
> It's a busy enough episode that we don't have that much time for
> her, but this has to play with her head and ego. Taking sides of a
> sort with someone she despises, and then seeing Faith's actions make
> her "wrong" in the end... we'll see where the character goes from
> here. Until now I'd assumed that she'd eventually end up coming
> around to Angel's side as a full partner in evil-fighting. Which
> still seems most likely, but this episode brings up some other
> possibilities too. Good call, OBS.
I wish it wasn't.
> The last B/A exchange didn't do so much for me, odd since I'm
> normally such a fan of the two actors' chemistry. I think it's
> more my issue rather than anything wrong with the scene, feeling
> uncomfortable seeing them get so petty (Buffy comparing him to Riley,
> etc.), however understandable. A telling character moment in this
> scene: "It's *nice* you moved on. I can't." Yep, that's Angel
> for you. And a botched moment too: Angel on living their separate
> lives - "That was your idea, remember?" Um... dude, have you
> even been watching your own shows?
You're right about the last, but I have to disagree with you about the
exchange as a whole. I think they needed a good squabble, and that was a
delicious one that I think fit fine with their late BtVS S3 exchanges. And
it led nicely to Buffy's remark about Faith winning.
Least you worry too much about it. Don't forget how much Angel immediately
regretted it. And don't forget Buffy's very forceful concern a little
earlier about Angel's well-being when Kate was going to lock him up. If she
had, how long do you think it would have taken for Buffy to start planning a
jailbreak? They still care for each other.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Still more stuff to haunt our thoughts for a long
> time.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Though I do like how much was put into this episode, the searing focus of
Five By Five made that substantially better to my mind. Even so, I'd still
rate this an Excellent.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I'm still thinking of all the undercurrents that must have been flowing
> through that moment, all interacting wildly, and can't get them all
> straight. Makes me really appreciate Buffy's line, "You actually think that
> I can form a thought right now?"
>
> I also rather like, "So you decided to punish her with a severe cuddling."
Yep and yep.
> Since by most standards she has been a victim other times, it is a little
> odd. But it makes me wonder what the thinking is. I don't think the line
> is by accident. I can imagine that Buffy might refuse to accept being a
> victim in the other instances. She fought back. They paid. Perhaps it
> goes to Buffy's attitude at the end that Faith won again. *We* know how
> badly hurt Faith is, and that winning would not be the right description of
> what she's accomplished. And to a significant extent, Angel knows that too.
> But does Buffy?
Point. It's interesting and kinda sad that after everything Buffy and
Faith have shared, and the kindness and unearned "chances" that B has
given her, she can't really be part of this aftermath. It's not "any
of her business."
> I don't know. But the exchange doesn't end with that.
>
> Faith: "And you can't stand that. You're all about control. You have no
> idea what it's like on the other side! Where nothing's in control, nothing
> makes sense! There is just pain and hate and nothing you do means anything.
> You can't even.."
> Buffy: "Shut up!"
>
> The expression on Buffy's face when she says, "Shut up!" suggests to me that
> Faith was hitting home somehow, though more in line with she really does
> understand and doesn't want to admit it.
It didn't seem as deep to me. I thought she was saying "shut up"
becuase she heard the helicopter and was trying to get
oriented/prepared for trouble.
> > Fortunately, we follow that up with a classic
> > Buffster moment, as a second later she's fighting to protect Faith.
> > Always the Protector.
>
> Buffster? Please don't keep that up.
Aw, c'mon. I've used it before. It gets boring typing the same
character names over and over.
> I'm glad you pointed that out. I had noted the irony of Buffy having to
> defend Faith then. But I couldn't figure out why it felt so right. And you
> nailed it. She's The Slayer. Of course.
And now I'm thinking about it even more, and I'm thinking that maybe
there's even more than that to work with...
You note how seeing Buffy (and Angel) fighting for her must affect
Faith. Well, first of all, on the simpler level, she's seeing Buffy
acting as the Slayer, which could and should have been something she
was doing too. Secondly, think about it in the context of "Who Are
You?" in which Faith gradually comes to want to become Buffy, and take
over her role, not just her body. She decides that her counterpart's
life is the worthwhile one, and wants it "because it's right." Now,
she sees Buffy using those powers and that sense of morality to protect
her. That's gotta have an impact.
> Though I do like how much was put into this episode, the searing focus of
> Five By Five made that substantially better to my mind. Even so, I'd still
> rate this an Excellent.
Agreed.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
I keep telling myself I'm not going to try to analytically explain the
difference between a high Good and an Excellent. So I won't. Reading
the reviews and paying attention to the amount of gushiness may help in
working out my headspace. TYG and WAY both gave me some minor issues
that pulled me out of the story, and I wasn't totally sucked in, but
they were very strong episodes, among the best of the year. FxF and
Sanct had my heart in my throat (proverbially), and made me feel that
whatever else may come, the mere fact that these episodes exist is
enough to make ATS as a whole worthwhile. FxF may actualy get upgraded
to SUPERLATIVE if I watch it again, since it just keeps on giving the
more one thinks about and discusses it.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
KenM47 wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
> >the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
> >flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
> >in IWRY, so who knows?
>
> No, they didn't. At no time are both faces in the same shot IIRC.
That's why I said that the *characters* have scenes together. :-)
-AOQ
Daniel Damouth
news:btr1702-3DB775...@news.giganews.com:
[About "5 by 5":]
> Eventually, the term evolved into more general use to mean
> "everything's cool" or "eveything's fine".
>
> So when Willow says "That's the thing, no one knows," it's not
> quite accurate. None of them may know but I bet if she'd asked
> Riley, he could have told her.
That would have been a nice scene. (fanfic?)
-Dan Damouth
Apteryx
news:1148303935.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
>
> Faith the chance he's giving her. The anti-Faith arguments are
> compelling too, and the people who make them have both pragmatic and
> personal reasons for doing so. Buffy will ultimately take up that
> mantle, but Wesley is the most articulate voice for it in the early
> going. The trust that's developed between him and his employer is
> strained here, and the episode teases us with breaking it. I like how
> he initially pushes away from the Annoying British Guys, but then looks
> like he's entering an uneasy deal with them once they offer him what
> he thought he was waiting for and make a few assurances about not
> hurting Angel. But it turns out that he's the one who's playing
> them. Wes has come such a long way as character in just a few
> episodes. It's like he was in stasis until a few things just clicked
> into place in his head. His reward this week is a genuinely fun
> action-hero moment as he sticks it to the ABGs.
Like I said a while back - he just needed a "nice girl" to take him in hand
and make a man of him ")
> Oh yeah, odd that the show writes Cordelia out so early. I wonder if
> the rumors about Gellar and Carpenter not getting along were still
> flying? Although of course the characters had scenes together anyway
> in IWRY, so who knows?
>
> Meanwhile, the L.M.s are none too pleased about their last assassin
> joining the enemy, so they first hire one of the cooler looking, more
> convincingly alien demons we've seen in awhile.
I loved Lilah's apology for being speciesist to him... er her... er it
> There's a nice bit of action back in Angel-land with the demonic
> attack. The scene gives us an effective movement, within a few
> seconds, from a Faith who's able to pass for 'normal' ("It was
> touch and go for the four minutes you left me alone, but somehow I got
> through it"), to a Slayer with a deadly weapon who's totally in her
> element against a monster, to a scared guilt-ridden girl with bloody
> hands again (of *course* this particular demon would bleed red). Angel
> looks funny trying to fight with the flapping shirt. And that's
> where we stand when Buffy enters.
That was a great scene. So much so that Buffy's entrance at the end was a
bit of a let down in comparison.
>
> Something that confused me a little was why Joss and Tim gave us the
> bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
> stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
Plus better at being hit by machine gun bullets - on the off-chance that
they managed to hit anything.
> This is where Kate gets pitted against her erstwhile vampire ally too.
> It's a busy enough episode that we don't have that much time for
> her, but this has to play with her head and ego. Taking sides of a
> sort with someone she despises, and then seeing Faith's actions make
> her "wrong" in the end... we'll see where the character goes from
> here. Until now I'd assumed that she'd eventually end up coming
> around to Angel's side as a full partner in evil-fighting. Which
> still seems most likely, but this episode brings up some other
> possibilities too. Good call, OBS.
A big call certainly. It shows how much Faith wants redemption. But is that
perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more good outside of
prison?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Still more stuff to haunt our thoughts for a long
> time.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
A good part two, but falling a little below 5x5. For me, its the 22nd best
AtS episode, 3rd best in Season 1
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
I'd have said that there are better episodes than these in Season 2 (they
have to be somewhere, right, since I ranked these two 15th and 22nd).
There's even a better episode in the horrible season (fcva gur obggyr va
frnfba sbhe). But I'd also say that the series doesn't get really good until
the 2nd half of Season 5.
In the unlikely event that your view of the seasons coincided with mine,
would that less depressing than Don's view, or more :)
--
Apteryx
Paul Hyett
>>
>> My working theory is ME paid for the helicopter and they were well
>> going to use it as much as possible.
>
>It wasn't the presence of the helicopter AOQ was questioning. It was
>why was Angel the one to jump into it, while Buffy and Faith just stand
>there doing nothing, after establishing in earlier dialogue that Buffy
>is stronger than him.
Perhaps because if Angel had missed and fallen, or been shot in the
attempt, it wouldn't have killed *him*.
>
>The answer: It's Angel's show. If this had happened back in Sunnydale,
>Buffy'd be the one doing the jumping.
>
There *is* that. :)
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Paul Hyett
>>
>Perhaps we can chalk it up to Angel seizing the right moment before the
>Slayers? Perhaps Angel was an unusual vampire in that he was able to jump
>higher than most Slayers. How? Because "stronger overall" does not
>necessarily mean stronger leg muscles. Or perhaps Slayers just don't like
>"heights" that much, or being an "undead" gives a psychological advantage to
>Angel to take more risks?
Exactly - vampires don't have to worry about dying, except for the
well-established, and limited, range of dangers we already know about.
Paul Hyett
>
>Buffy may be physically stronger than him to some degree (though we don't
>know exactly how much), but I don't think that necessarily means the she has
>all of his strengths. Maybe my memory is failing me, but I don't recall
>seeing her do crazy feats of jumping before. On the other hand, I think we
>did see Angel do some nice jumping work in Sumnambulist ... but I haven't
>seen it in quite a while so it may have been another episode.
>
>So basically, Buffy may not be able to jump like that
How about jumping up to hold Dru hostage in 'Lie To Me'?
Espen Schjønberg
> Ian Galbraith wrote:
>> On 22 May 2006 06:18:55 -0700, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> 18) "Five By Five" - Excellent
>>> 19) "Sanctuary" - Excellent]
>> I'd be interested in what you see as the differences between these 2
>> episodes and This Years Girl and Who Are You both of which you rated
>> Good.
>
> I keep telling myself I'm not going to try to analytically explain the
> difference between a high Good and an Excellent.
This is the problem you get when you use this few grades.
Many people keep arguing for few grades, 'cause decimals are insane
la-la-la. But you end up with huge threshold-problems.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
KenM47
I stand corrected. Although the "who knows" seems out of place if you
were just talking characters and not actors.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
wrote:
> A big call certainly. It shows how much Faith wants redemption. But is that
> perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more good outside of
> prison?
One could say that about anyone.
Eric Hunter
> In article <rY6dnaR5S5O...@rcn.net>,
> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> "drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote in
>> news:Bprcg.523$my....@fe04.lga:
>>
>>> Michael Ikeda wrote:
>>
>>>> On the subject of jargon. After Wesley hits one of the
>>>> "Council's Elite" with the syringe (by throwing it at him), he
>>>> says "one eighty". Am I correct in thinking that a reference
>>>> to some sort of high score in darts?
>>>
>>> Possibly, but it would take 3 darts to hit 180; 3 triple-20's.
>>> Did he throw two others?
>>>
>>
>> No. Just the one syringe.
>
> 180 is the highest score you can get from a single turn in darts. It
> requires three hits in the triple-20. So technically, Wes couldn't
> have scored a 180 with his one shot.
Like "5 X 5", it is a metaphor for perfection. "Bulls-eye!" would
have been more appropriate in the situation, but "180!" is more
British, more dart-geeky, and therefore, more Wesley.
Eric.
--
drifter
One could *say* it, but one would be wrong, IMO.
Ed Gien, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, etc.
"Too bad John's in jail. Sure, he buried dozens of kids in his
basement, but I miss his clown character so, and little Timmy's
birthday is coming up." Plus, of course, the myriad other less
famous inmates who do nothing for society but drain it in
between incarcerations.
Part of Faith's path toward redemption is that she needs to
feel she is being punished for her evil deeds. She allows herself
to be punished, for she surely couldn't be held in jail if she didn't
*want* to be. And we now have the possibility of a "Bad Girls in
Jail" episode later on.
eli...@gmail.com
>perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more good outside of
>prison?
think she needs to find some peace. Or find herself, corny as it
sounds.
FCVXR: Lbh unq gur cbjre gb jnyx njnl nalgvzr. Abguvat gb fgbc lbh.
SNVGU: V fgbccrq zr. V tbg qnatrebhf sbe n juvyr.
Espen Schjønberg
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148303935.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>>episodes in these review threads
>
>>bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
>>stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
>
>
> Plus better at being hit by machine gun bullets - on the off-chance that
> they managed to hit anything.
About the chopters: It is my impression some of the writers were to fun
of technical gadgest, they were more like the writers you see on Alias.
Not that I watch Alias. I saw season one, and thought it was really
boring - regretted I had bought the discs, but felt compelled to watch
it all before I declared it really really sucked. But it really really did.
However, about the bullets:
Slayers are tough. Their skin is a little like a bullet-proof vest. Of
course, if they could be easily shot, more than Mr. Trick would have
talked about uzis.
Pay no attention to anyone telling you anything else.
Nal rcvfbqr fubjvat n fynlre npghnyyl orvat jbhaqrq be cbffvoyl qvrvat
sebz n ohyyrgjbhaq, pbagnvaf va vgfrys cebbs vg vf na nofbyhgryl
pbhagresrvg ohssl rcvfbqr. Vg vf zber guna tbbq qbqtvat gung jbhyq znxr
gunz uneq gb fubbg, bs pbhefr, gurl jbhyq unir gnyrag sbe qbqtvat nvz
gb. Nabgure guvat nobhg snvgu va guvf gjb rcvfbqrf: fur unf fhpu n tbgu
znxrhc, svefg v fnj ure va vg, v gubhtug fur jnf ghearq gb or n inzcver.
V fnj ohssl frnfba frira orsber v tbg gb frr guvf gjb, fb gung jnf va
gur cerivbhfyl-frtzragf.
> A big call certainly. It shows how much Faith wants redemption. But is that
> perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more good outside of
> prison?
She has no good solutions. Her choice of prison is the classic choice.
--
Espen
peachy ashie passion
> And we now have the possibility of a "Bad Girls in
> Jail" episode later on.
>
Oh great. Thanks for that.
I'll be in my bunk.
peachy ashie passion
The crucial thing about prison is the accountability.
Faith had previously seen herself as above the rules of humans, they
didn't apply to her.
By voluntarily turning herself in, she is resubmitting herself as a
member of society.
Opus the Penguin
> Buffy may be physically stronger than him to some degree (though
> we don't know exactly how much), but I don't think that
> necessarily means the she has all of his strengths. Maybe my
> memory is failing me, but I don't recall seeing her do crazy feats
> of jumping before.
You must've been looking the other way during "Earshot". Don't worry.
Most people were.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
The alternative is a degree of precision you can't really vouch for.
It's like having a thermometer that reads to 4 decimal places but is
only accurate to two. Stick it in a space of the same temperature and
those last two digits are different every time. They're not worth
recording. You might get more digits, but not more significant
digits.
drifter
You're completely welcome, glad I could help. Don't forget
to stretch first.
One Bit Shy
news:e4ud4e$vqc$1...@emma.aioe.org...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148303935.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> This is where Kate gets pitted against her erstwhile vampire ally too.
>> It's a busy enough episode that we don't have that much time for
>> her, but this has to play with her head and ego. Taking sides of a
>> sort with someone she despises, and then seeing Faith's actions make
>> her "wrong" in the end... we'll see where the character goes from
>> here. Until now I'd assumed that she'd eventually end up coming
>> around to Angel's side as a full partner in evil-fighting. Which
>> still seems most likely, but this episode brings up some other
>> possibilities too. Good call, OBS.
>
> A big call certainly. It shows how much Faith wants redemption. But is
> that perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more good
> outside of prison?
We were actually talking about Kate there. But as for the Faith remark, if
there's redemption to be had, that's somewhere far in the future. This is
punishment. Faith is finally accepting the consequences. She's stopped
running.
And one more thing I haven't seen mentioned. I think she made this specific
choice because Buffy said so. She heard Buffy say she belonged in prison.
She heard Buffy say she had to stop running. And Faith's last meaningful
words to Buffy were, "Just tell me how to make it better." She knew she had
a huge debt to pay off to Buffy. But Faith still needed Buffy to give her
the answer. And she got it. Stop running. Go to jail.
OBS
William George Ferguson
wrote:
Or, you don't see those as problems.
I do my tv episode rating at www.geos.tv which uses a 0 to 10 scale, and
allows single decimal fractions. Out of 144 episodes of Buffy, I gave 31
episodes '10'. That doesn't mean I like all of these episodes exactly the
same, but it does mean I like all of them better than an ep I gave '9.9'.
OK, my number-geekery is now triggered (curse you, Red Baron), so as a
general indicator here's how I rated various (skiffy) series there
Buffy: Eps: 144 High: 10.0(31) Low: 4.0(1) Mean: 8.95
Angel: Eps: 110 High: 10.0(17) Low: 5.0(1) Mean: 9.22
Andromeda: Eps: 110 High: 10.0(2) Low: 3.0(1) Mean: 7.79
Battlestar
Galactica: Eps: 35 High: 9.6(1) Low: 7.0(1) Mean: 8.48
Dark Angel: Eps: 42 High: 10.0(1) Low: 7.0(1) Mean: 9.03
Firefly: Eps: 15 High: 10.0(5) Low: 8.8(1) Mean: 9.56
Wonderfalls: Eps: 13 High: 10.0(3) Low: 9.1(1) Mean: 9.62
Xena: Eps: 134 High: 10.0(3) Low: 6.5(1) Mean: 8.87
There's a couple of other series (Charmed, Tru Calling, Dr. Who) that I
need to catch up on to have all the (up to date) ratings entered, and
Veronica Mars was just added to the poll, so I'll probably need to re-view
those to rate.
I won't go into the Buffy and Angel here, for spoiler avoidance, but if
anyone's curious on the others:
The two 10s I gave for Andromeda were "Only Human" (Rommie has an adventure
and gets good character development) and "The Dark Backward" (Trance trims
her bonsai). The 3 was for "Vault of the Heavens" one of the very few
contenders for the title 'even worse than the Captain and Navigator turning
into mud puppies and populating a planet'.
The one Dark Angel 10 was for the finale, "Freak Nation".
Xena's three 10s were "Bitter Suite", "Lyre, Lyre", and "Seeds of Faith".
The last gets there almost entirely on the identify of Eve/Livia's
'father'.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Exp315
> Buffy's seeming selfishness here bothered me, but then again only
> Angel and we knew about the magical undone day. Still, she's all over
> Riley and yet SHE plays the jealousy card, and clearly is wrong in
> doing so. I saw no sexual spark between Angel and Faith, none at all.
Well, hang on a minute - in this episode we all have a tendency to see
things too much from Faith's viewpoint rather than Buffy's. Consider
Buffy's view of this:
Buffy tried to give Faith a chance to make peace after she woke up from
her coma. Instead Faith beats up Buffy's mother, steals Buffy's body,
and leaves her to pay the price for Faith's crimes: at the very least
to be imprisoned for murder, or, as it turned out, kidnapped and
executed by the WC. While Faith makes out with Buffy's boyfriend just
for a lark, and uses her credit card to book a flight for foreign
parts. From Buffy's point of view it was pure luck that she caught up
with Faith at the church and got her body back.
Then she hears that Faith is in LA trying to kill Angel, but when she
drops everything and rushes there to help Angel, what does she find?
Angel comforting poor, misunderstood Faith in his arms.
What would you expect her attitude to be?
Arbitrar Of Quality
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> > I keep telling myself I'm not going to try to analytically explain the
> > difference between a high Good and an Excellent.
>
> This is the problem you get when you use this few grades.
>
> Many people keep arguing for few grades, 'cause decimals are insane
> la-la-la. But you end up with huge threshold-problems.
Um... if someone thinks that the difference between a 4 and a 5 is
hopelessly subjective, how will introducing more increments do anything
other than make the problem worse?
-AOQ
eli...@gmail.com
the pinnacle of the entire 'verse (and yes that includes Buffy)!
(Harmony) Watcher
"Exp315" <Exp...@canada.com> wrote in message
news:1148407079.6...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
she had felt:
"...So you decided to punish her with a severe
cuddling (with your shirt unbuttoned)?"
Whfg orvat avgcvpxl urer, ohg ba fhofrdhrag jngpuvatf, V sryg n Qnjal-vfu
glcr bs erfcbafr va AN (uggc://oqo.ieln.arg/oqo/pyvc.cuc?pyvc=3651) be n
Ohssl-vfu glcr bs erfcbafr va JGJGN
(uggc://oqo.ieln.arg/oqo/pyvc.cuc?pyvc=639).
"Jbhyq vg xvyy lbh vs lbh unq xabpxrq svefg?"
"Vg'f YN, crbcyr. Ybpx lbhe qbbef!"
Ohg bs pbhefr gung jbhyq unir xvyyrq gur qenzn. :)
==Harmony Watcher==
drifter
Maybe you should just go to a "Pass/Fail" scoring system.
BTR1701
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <e4ud4e$vqc$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx"
> > <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >> A big call certainly. It shows how much Faith wants redemption. But
> >> is that perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more
> >> good outside of prison?
> >
> > One could say that about anyone.
> One could *say* it, but one would be wrong, IMO.
> Ed Gien, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, etc.
I meant one could say that about anyone similarly situated. A
neuro-surgeon who commits a heat of passion murder when he catches his
wife in bed with another man. Such a person is not likely to ever commit
murder again because the unique circumstances that induced his behavior
are highly unlikely to repeat, hence he's not really a continuing danger
to society. And being a neuro-surgeon, he could do quite a lot more good
for people on the outside than he ever will sitting in prison.
So should he be given a pass on his murder just because he has a useful
skill?
Personally, I say no.
> She allows herself to be punished, for she surely couldn't be held
> in jail if she didn't *want* to be.
She could easily be held in prison if the guards knew and accepted what
she was and could prepare accordingly.** She's a Slayer, not Superman.
If they put her in a facility like the Supermax in Colorado, there's
little likelihood that she could break out.
**And given how many people in all aspects of society seem to know about
demons, vampires and the supernatural (and the comments that the guard
made after Faith kicked Bertha's ass in the yard), I'd have to say it's
likely that at least the warden was briefed on Faith, if only to the
extent of "Keep an eye on that one. She has some unusual abilities." Of
course, if they were briefed, they didn't seem to be taking a lot of
precautions with her. Maybe they let their guard down because she'd been
a model inmate for so long.
BTR1701
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 23.05.2006 09:23, Apteryx wrote:
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1148303935.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> >>episodes in these review threads
> >
> >>Something that confused me a little was why Joss and Tim gave us the
> >>bit with Angel jumping into the helicopter while Buffy kinda looks on
> >>stupidly. I guess to highlight that this is Angel's world?
> >
> >
> > Plus better at being hit by machine gun bullets - on the off-chance that
> > they managed to hit anything.
>
> About the chopters:
Language nit: it's either chopper or helicopter.
JJ Karhu
wrote:
>In article <dsample-4C5823...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <1148304012.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > AOQ rating: Excellent
>>
>> Yep, but I'm sad to say that IMHO this is as good as Angel ever gets.
>> This pair of episodes is the best they ever do. They never get it this
>> right again.
>
>I thought "Reunion", "Salvage", "Release" and "Orpheus" were at least as
>good.
>
>Naq "Qnzntr" jnf n pbagraqre. Vs vg unqa'g orra n Frnfba 5 rcvfbqr
>srnghevat Fcvxr (naq rira jbefr, Naqerj), vg zvtug unir fpberq orggre.
>Rirel gvzr V jngpu na rcvfbqr bs "Ahzo3ef" naq V frr Aniv Enjng, V guvax
>bs Qnan gur Cflpubgvp Fynlre.
Wrfh Xevfgh! Gung'f ure?! :)
// JJ
drifter
Or 'copter. Espen seems to have fused it with chopper. I
don't think English is his first language, judging by the
occasionally really confusing sentences that pepper his
posts. Or, perhaps, her, since I don't have a clue if Espen
is a masculine or feminine name in his mother tongue. Does
the .no in @readme.uio.no stand for Norway, by any chance?
Or North Carolina? Can't understand them, either.
drifter
> In article <IuDcg.4$bY...@fe04.lga>, "drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote:
>
>> BTR1701 wrote:
>>> In article <e4ud4e$vqc$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx"
>>> <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A big call certainly. It shows how much Faith wants redemption. But
>>>> is that perhaps self indulgent of her. Couldn't she be doing more
>>>> good outside of prison?
>>>
>>> One could say that about anyone.
>
>> One could *say* it, but one would be wrong, IMO.
>
>> Ed Gien, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, etc.
>
> I meant one could say that about anyone similarly situated. A
> neuro-surgeon who commits a heat of passion murder when he catches his
> wife in bed with another man. Such a person is not likely to ever
> commit murder again because the unique circumstances that induced his
> behavior are highly unlikely to repeat, hence he's not really a
> continuing danger to society. And being a neuro-surgeon, he could do
> quite a lot more good for people on the outside than he ever will
> sitting in prison.
>
> So should he be given a pass on his murder just because he has a
> useful skill?
>
> Personally, I say no.
Your original "one could say that about anyone" made me think you
were saying exactly the opposite of what you just said. Never mind.
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
or copter.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Stephen Tempest
>Indeed. Given setup of that moment, I would expect her to feel exactly as
>she had felt:
>
> "...So you decided to punish her with a severe
> cuddling (with your shirt unbuttoned)?"
Vagrerfgvat gb abgr gung gur *arkg*-ohg-bar gvzr gung Ohssl jvyy zrrg
Snvgu, fur'f fvggvat ba gur orq jvgu n fuvegyrff Fcvxr... naq Ohssl'f
abg gbb unccl nobhg gung rvgure. Fbzrguvat bs n cnggrea sbezvat urer.
:)
Stephen
BTR1701
Arbitrar Of Quality
If it helps, you can convert my ratings into the "good"/"not good"
scale.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
news:uu57729oioiompvdm...@4ax.com...
Ibgr: Fuvegl Ohssl be fuvegyrff oblsevraq. :)
==(Harmony) Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote in message
news:5oMcg.885$bY4...@fe04.lga...
or rejects that "morality" is an extrinsically measurable quantity, and if
it is, whether one accepts or rejects the notion that the "moral" thing to
do in any situation is an/the action which would maximize its "utility" to
society (if there are two or more such actions, then any one will do).
The acceptance of such notions leads to "utilitarian" thinking (naive,
absurd, and highly dangerous in my own views). Otherwise, given two people
who commit similar crimes in similar situations, the person who has the more
"utility" to society might get a "bigger" break than the other person, based
solely on the expected values of their subsequent contributions to society.
Might work excellent for the Borgs. But unless we've all been assimilated,
I'd rather not see us sinking to such levels of rationalization.
==Harmony Watcher==
Apteryx
news:btr1702-C89A6E...@news.giganews.com...
>
> I meant one could say that about anyone similarly situated. A
> neuro-surgeon who commits a heat of passion murder when he catches his
> wife in bed with another man. Such a person is not likely to ever commit
> murder again because the unique circumstances that induced his behavior
> are highly unlikely to repeat, hence he's not really a continuing danger
> to society. And being a neuro-surgeon, he could do quite a lot more good
> for people on the outside than he ever will sitting in prison.
>
> So should he be given a pass on his murder just because he has a useful
> skill?
>
> Personally, I say no.
I'd say no too, but that is not quite the same question. You are considering
whether the police or courts should turn a blind eye and let him off the
murder for the sake of the good he can do. I would say that for them to make
an exception for him would do more harm than he can do good. But Faith gave
herself up. The parallel would be to look at the issue from the
neuro-surgeon's POV. He gets up in the morning, and he has two patients
waiting for him that day who will die if he doesn't turn up and operate. Or
he could go to the police station and give himself up for his wife's murder
and let the patients die. I would say his first duty is to his patients.
--
Apteryx
cry...@panix.com
> Espen Schj?nberg wrote:
>> Come on! Haven't you got any better grades than that?
>>
>> I mean. Faith. And Buffy. And even some Kate.
>>
>> Actually, I mean that about better grades: this must be the best Angel
>> episode by now.
> I think this is the first time I've been criticized for an Excellent
> rating being too low.
Zl thrff vf, vg'yy unccra ntnva, jura ur erivrjf bapr zber jvgu
srryvat. Rvgure gung, be ur'yy engr vg "jrnx" naq fgneg gur
ybatrfg NBD guernq gb qngr. :-)
--
-Crystal
Espen Schjønberg
Yes, but now you are not honest to the problem.
The problem is that AOQ _has_ Good + or Good - . If he had used numbers,
(I don't recall what he said) but say Good here is 3.5 to 4.4, and
excellent is 4.5 to 5.4.
Then you lose info if you round of to no decimals. Good gets 4 and
Excellent 5. What he really said, is he could have been giving This
Years Girl 4.4, and Sanctuary 4.5.
Significanse is not everything. What i didn't take the time to write,
was, like, you have an _interval_ of grades you feel apropriate, and
perhaps you could defend for yourself a plus or minus 0.2 in the grade.
Then people would see you are not that damn sure which is the best if
you give one ep 4.4 and one 4.5, but you are damn sure if you give on
5.2 and one 3.8. Then you lose info if you round of to no decimals. Info
you actually have got.
You are not honest to this discusion because you push it beyond the
point it should be pushed.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> (I don't recall what he said) but say Good here is 3.5 to 4.4, and
> excellent is 4.5 to 5.4.
you people have -really- spent too much time worrying about this
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
free the indianapolis 500 - up against the mall motherhuggers
Stephen Tempest
>Ibgr: Fuvegl Ohssl be fuvegyrff oblsevraq. :)
Pna'g V ibgr sbe fuvegyrff Ohssl vafgrnq?
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>The acceptance of such notions leads to "utilitarian" thinking (naive,
>absurd, and highly dangerous in my own views). Otherwise, given two people
>who commit similar crimes in similar situations, the person who has the more
>"utility" to society might get a "bigger" break than the other person, based
>solely on the expected values of their subsequent contributions to society.
I disagree with your conclusion, because it doesn't consider the wider
perspective. From a utilitarian point of view, the permanent value to
society of enforcing the principle of "equal justice for all"
outweighs the temporary, short-term utility of gaining access to the
services of one more brain surgeon or nuclear physicist.
Although if the brain surgeon in question happened to be on the verge
of discovering a cure for Alzheimer's, frankly I *would* be inclined
to give her a bigger break, since she can help a damn sight more
people in a lab than in prison. But then I'm one of those naif,
absurd and highly dangerous utilitarians we have running around these
days...
Stephen
Opus the Penguin
> On 23.05.2006 17:16, Opus the Penguin wrote:
>> Espen Schjønberg (ess...@excite.com) wrote:
>>>On 23.05.2006 06:48, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>>>I keep telling myself I'm not going to try to analytically
>>>>explain the difference between a high Good and an Excellent.
>>>
>>>This is the problem you get when you use this few grades.
>>>
>>>Many people keep arguing for few grades, 'cause decimals are
>>>insane la-la-la. But you end up with huge threshold-problems.
>>
>> The alternative is a degree of precision you can't really vouch
>> for. It's like having a thermometer that reads to 4 decimal
>> places but is only accurate to two. Stick it in a space of the
>> same temperature and those last two digits are different every
>> time. They're not worth recording. You might get more digits, but
>> not more significant digits.
>
> Yes, but now you are not honest to the problem.
Is this a literal translation of a German, Swedish, or Norwegian
phrase? I understand what you're saying, but it's an interesting way
of putting it.
> The problem is that AOQ _has_ Good + or Good - . If he had used
> numbers, (I don't recall what he said) but say Good here is 3.5 to
> 4.4, and excellent is 4.5 to 5.4.
>
> Then you lose info if you round of to no decimals. Good gets 4 and
> Excellent 5. What he really said, is he could have been giving
> This Years Girl 4.4, and Sanctuary 4.5.
I'd forgotten that part. I understand where you're coming from now.
> Significanse is not everything. What i didn't take the time to
> write, was, like, you have an _interval_ of grades you feel
> apropriate, and perhaps you could defend for yourself a plus or
> minus 0.2 in the grade. Then people would see you are not that
> damn sure which is the best if you give one ep 4.4 and one 4.5,
> but you are damn sure if you give on 5.2 and one 3.8. Then you
> lose info if you round of to no decimals. Info you actually have
> got.
Gotcha. The phrase for that plus or minus is "margin of error".
If I actually am able to make good on my promise to start re-viewing
and then reviewing the series once AOQ is done, I think I won't have
a ratings system at all. I find that for me, at least, it leads to
absurdity and endless tinkering. I end up liking A better than B
better than C (according to the ratings) and yet, when I think about
it, I think C is the superior episode. And a lot of these ratings
depend on the mood I'm in anyway. Sometimes a silly ep will hit the
spot and gain a point or two as a guilty pleasure. Another day, that
ep might fall flat.
So, no ratings for me! That's the way Pauline Kael did it, so it must
be right.
> You are not honest to this discusion because you push it beyond
> the point it should be pushed.
>
Translation of the same or similar phrase here?
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
BTR1701
wrote:
His patients or the whole pool of people in the world who need surgery?
If it's just his patients, I'd say sure. Operate on them, save them, and
*then* turn yourself in.
If it's just his family and friends and the AMA (comparable to the
Council) saying that he should *never* turn himself in because of all
the good he could do, I would disagree with that.
BTR1701
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Well, my solution (were I governor of the state and convinced the woman
truly was on the verge of some revolutionary medical advance) would be
to appropriate funds and set up a small facility inside the prison from
which she could complete here work while still returning to her cell
every night just like any other murderer.
eli...@gmail.com
Espen Schjønberg
> The name would indicate a male Norwegian. (I'm of Danish origin)
Busted.
Watch me jump to conclusions. ;-)
(She is right, of course, in case someone is misunderstanding my jokes.)
--
Espen