AOQ Review 5-11: "Triangle"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
(or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: Christopher Hibler
Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
obsessing about people breaking up. It's not that funny, plus Gellar
isn't very convincing. Plus, given what she's gone through, and
given that the first half gives us a convincing picture of someone
who's hurting trying to lie to herself that she's coping, and can
heal without the big drama... I feel a little bad turning it into a
joke. Plus the episode keeps using it, over and over. It's a little
sad that, although there's a lot to like about "Triangle," my
memory of it will probably always be dominated by the Buffy-in-tears
scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
more attractive daughters!" The premise that he's both the reason
for and a result of Anyanka the vengeance demon is worth a smile.
I'm not seeing much depth here, although a determined soul could
probably rustle up a thesis about Anya's past and present perceptions
of men, irrational fears about her current relationship, and so on,
maybe tying it in to Buffy's issues. I will write no such thesis.
So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
On a character sense, the core of the episode involves Willow and Anya
bickering a lot, and maybe setting aside a few of their differences in
the process. Basically the beginning and the end (pre-troll) of this
worked well for me, the middle not so much. The increased focus on the
cattiness between these two actually started in the background several
episodes ago, about the time the Magic Box opened, and led to some of
the funnier moments of "Into The Woods." That continues here.
Among other things, Willow returns the favor of an imitation, and
actually does a pretty good Caulfield impression. Xander caught in the
middle and exasperated is also something used to good comedic effect
both in the past and this time; I'd have stormed out after awhile of
that too. These early exchanges are a worthwhile mix of a few actual
annoyances (people talking over Anya) and a lot of just venting.
Mid-episode, things aren't faring so well. A good general rule is
that I tend to enjoy characters sniping at each other more during
peacetime than wartime, so to speak. Things cross the border into
over-stupidity territory too. Worst moment of that for me would be the
actual casting of the spell that releases Olaf. This is an example of
something Jane did in GWBG recently too, in which a joke is set up for
the audience way in advance, and then the scene leisurely meanders
towards that obvious endpoint in as predictable a manner as possible.
Bleah, says I. So yeah, the two of them will find a way to turn
anything into a silly argument, no matter how dangerous things get. It
got old. I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
is funnier than the finished scene. Eventually, though, they do get a
chance to cut through some of the surface hostility and hit at the
mistrust and, well, more hostility beneath it. That's good stuff.
Willow's feelings of trying to look out for Xander and/or keep him
close to her are well used to provide an interesting flipside to
Anya's constant fear of being dumped. And having picked up on that,
let's also remember what happened with Xander's last long-term
relationship. It makes sense for this conversation to happen, and
now's about the right time for it.
While we're on that, this is the debut of "gay now," (some people
suggested that would be a recurring thing in the "New Moon Rising"
thread). She's got a little Vamp!Willow in her, or the other way
around. I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
threat to Xander's faithfulness), and also the fact that it makes
sense for Willow would think about it the way she does, regardless.
Last week I couldn't buy the male-bonding moment between Spike and
Riley. Well, our favorite British vampire has a natural chemistry with
Xander, and their moment of chilling together feels entirely natural.
Make your own joke about the real sexual tension being between these
two, but I've always liked their scenes together, particularly last
season during the common-loser phase. I always thought they got a
little overshadowed by the also-good Spike/Giles stuff. Anyway, eating
wings while bitching about the women in their lives and neither really
listening to what the other one is saying... quite entertaining. I
love the idea that William is obsessed with the belief that Buffy
blames him for what happened with Riley when in fact the situation
persists in not being about him, one way or the other.
Back to doing endings that go somewhere totally different from the
episode that preceded them. Dawn overhears her sister talking about
her. And, uh, that's it. Of the ways to move this plot along,
that's not the one I'd have gone with.
This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed Anyway
moment(s):
- Spike's one-sided argument with his Buffy-mannequin
- "They've got this onion thing..."
- "You want credit for not feeding on bleeding disaster victims?!"
"Well, yeah." [Humor-with-a-point too; Spike's going against his
nature here.]
- Xander trying to have a heroic moment ("you are not touching these
women!") and getting thrown across the room for his troubles. About
twelve times in a row
- Another mention of the world without shrimp.
So...
One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
many wrong notes.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
6) "Family" - Excellent
7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
8) "Shadow" - Good
9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
10) "Into The Woods" - Good
11) "Triangle" - Decent]
Daniel Damouth
news:1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up. It's not that funny, plus Gellar
> isn't very convincing. Plus, given what she's gone through, and
> given that the first half gives us a convincing picture of someone
> who's hurting trying to lie to herself that she's coping, and can
> heal without the big drama... I feel a little bad turning it into a
> joke. Plus the episode keeps using it, over and over.
These parts of the episode have always confused me, in an "I don't get
why they did this" kind of way, and you nail the reasons for my
perplexity.
-Dan Damouth
One Bit Shy
news:1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up.
They have a miraculous love!
<shrug> Maybe it's the series way of saying, move along, we're not going to
dwell on it? I don't know. The crying is obviousl artificially exaggerated
for comic effect, so I personally just went along with it. Hell, I'm happy
not to have to dwell on it. The Giles scene was enough. The long run last
episode was enough. So I enjoy this. And Tara's reaction to Buffy. And
just having Buffy make amends to Xander for what she said to him about Anya
last episode.
> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
> with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
> and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
> more attractive daughters!" The premise that he's both the reason
> for and a result of Anyanka the vengeance demon is worth a smile.
I like how everybody turns and looks at Anya. "And we're what, surprised by
this?"
> I'm not seeing much depth here, although a determined soul could
> probably rustle up a thesis about Anya's past and present perceptions
> of men, irrational fears about her current relationship, and so on,
> maybe tying it in to Buffy's issues. I will write no such thesis.
> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
Olaf is fun. It's good to know that he adjusted to being a troll. He may
be the most emotionally stable character we see all season.
> On a character sense, the core of the episode involves Willow and Anya
> bickering a lot, and maybe setting aside a few of their differences in
> the process. Basically the beginning and the end (pre-troll) of this
> worked well for me, the middle not so much. The increased focus on the
> cattiness between these two actually started in the background several
> episodes ago, about the time the Magic Box opened, and led to some of
> the funnier moments of "Into The Woods." That continues here.
> Among other things, Willow returns the favor of an imitation, and
> actually does a pretty good Caulfield impression. Xander caught in the
> middle and exasperated is also something used to good comedic effect
> both in the past and this time; I'd have stormed out after awhile of
> that too. These early exchanges are a worthwhile mix of a few actual
> annoyances (people talking over Anya) and a lot of just venting.
I love their spat. It's a good catfight, but it also shows excellent
chemistry between them. They should have done a sitcom together.
> Mid-episode, things aren't faring so well. A good general rule is
> that I tend to enjoy characters sniping at each other more during
> peacetime than wartime, so to speak. Things cross the border into
> over-stupidity territory too. Worst moment of that for me would be the
> actual casting of the spell that releases Olaf. This is an example of
> something Jane did in GWBG recently too, in which a joke is set up for
> the audience way in advance, and then the scene leisurely meanders
> towards that obvious endpoint in as predictable a manner as possible.
> Bleah, says I.
Do you recall that this is not the first time they've done a spell together?
That time it was Anya's spell that got messed up. I wonder if Anya
remembers that.
So yeah, the two of them will find a way to turn
> anything into a silly argument, no matter how dangerous things get. It
> got old. I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
> is funnier than the finished scene.
I laughed. I'm waiting for the right opportunity when driving with people
to say that I just figured out what the left pedal does and then demonstrate
it.
> Back to doing endings that go somewhere totally different from the
> episode that preceded them. Dawn overhears her sister talking about
> her. And, uh, that's it. Of the ways to move this plot along,
> that's not the one I'd have gone with.
You have something else in mind?
> This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed Anyway
> moment(s):
> - Spike's one-sided argument with his Buffy-mannequin
> - "They've got this onion thing..."
> - "You want credit for not feeding on bleeding disaster victims?!"
> "Well, yeah." [Humor-with-a-point too; Spike's going against his
> nature here.]
> - Xander trying to have a heroic moment ("you are not touching these
> women!") and getting thrown across the room for his troubles. About
> twelve times in a row
> - Another mention of the world without shrimp.
"Ooh! But I met a nun, and she let me try on her wimple."
Willow: I wish Buffy was here.
Buffy: I'm here.
Willow: I wish I had a million dollars... Just checking.
The best TIRSBILA for me is in the fight at the Bronze when Olaf sends Buffy
flying - right past Spike, who she slugs on the way. Then Spike "helps"
Buffy to her feet by groping her.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
> many wrong notes.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Not an episode that calls for a lot of in depth analysis. Maybe some things
in retrospect, but we're not in retrospect. So, very simply I enjoyed it a
lot. Almost an Excellent, but not quite. Just another in a bunch of very
strong Goods this season.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
> (or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
<Sigh> Okay, this is pathetic. I just tried to un-ROT13 *that*...
<mutter>ratzen-fratzen jiggen fraggenitz...
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way?
Yeah, he was my college history professor...
> Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
Never woulda guessed.
>
> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
> with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
> and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
> more attractive daughters!"
And apparently having a blast with the role.
> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
What, are you contradicting our Ms Rosenberg there?
>
> On a character sense, the core of the episode involves Willow and Anya
> bickering a lot, and maybe setting aside a few of their differences in
> the process. Basically the beginning and the end (pre-troll) of this
> worked well for me, the middle not so much. The increased focus on the
> cattiness between these two actually started in the background several
> episodes ago, about the time the Magic Box opened, and led to some of
> the funnier moments of "Into The Woods." That continues here.
Aly and Emma play off each other quite well. Pity most of Willow's
cattiness was relegated to subtle remarks and innuendos up until
recently; once she stopped holding back, the two of them really got rolling.
> Bleah, says I. So yeah, the two of them will find a way to turn
> anything into a silly argument, no matter how dangerous things get. It
> got old.
Yeah, but then, this is an example of one area where Willow can be a
little hypocritical; she's *right* about Anya's lack of knowing how to
deal with people - but *she* has some problems there, herself.
> While we're on that, this is the debut of "gay now," (some people
> suggested that would be a recurring thing in the "New Moon Rising"
> thread). She's got a little Vamp!Willow in her, or the other way
> around. I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
> threat to Xander's faithfulness), and also the fact that it makes
> sense for Willow would think about it the way she does, regardless.
Yup. It's not at all the contradiction some folks make it out to be.
> This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed Anyway
> moment(s):
Willow: I wish Buffy was here.
Buffy: (Running into the room) I'm here!
Willow: (Brightly) I wish I had a million dollars! (Slightly sheepish
smile, off everyone's look.) Just checking...
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I go a little higher than that, simply for the Willow/Anya stuff. But
there are enough weak points to keep it from going above a Good- But
then, Willow's edgier outfit takes it back to Good. Nice legs being set
off by that short skirt and striped hose. (Cameraman gets an effin' F,
though, for giving us such a brief glimpse.)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
> (or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Christopher Hibler
>
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up. It's not that funny, plus Gellar
> isn't very convincing. Plus, given what she's gone through, and
> given that the first half gives us a convincing picture of someone
> who's hurting trying to lie to herself that she's coping, and can
> heal without the big drama... I feel a little bad turning it into a
> joke. Plus the episode keeps using it, over and over. It's a little
> sad that, although there's a lot to like about "Triangle," my
> memory of it will probably always be dominated by the Buffy-in-tears
> scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
> Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
>
I'm with you on this part. Those scenes really bugged the crap out of me
this time. It wasn't the heartfelt tears of "Innocence" or "The Prom."
It was just hysterical silliness overdone to annoyance. Her conversation
with Tara (pre-hysteria) and especially the one with Dawn did a nice
job, however, of telling us how she _really_ is feeling about Riley's
departure.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
> > Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
> >
>
> I'm with you on this part. Those scenes really bugged the crap out of me
> this time. It wasn't the heartfelt tears of "Innocence" or "The Prom."
> It was just hysterical silliness overdone to annoyance. Her conversation
the pay off is the end of the fight with olaf
where buffy is whaling away on olaf mostly off camera
with a few sweeps in front
and anya xander and willow are watching and commenting on their relations
you couldntve had that scene
without the earlier sobbing about a perfect relationship
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
news:1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
> (or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Christopher Hibler
>
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up.
The idea is fine with me - its a very necessary comic relief. The execution
is flawed the first time around with the "miraculous love", where Gellar's
performance is OTT. Just enough so that she's obviously projecting would
have been fine.
>
> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
> with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
> and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
> more attractive daughters!" The premise that he's both the reason
> for and a result of Anyanka the vengeance demon is worth a smile.
> I'm not seeing much depth here, although a determined soul could
> probably rustle up a thesis about Anya's past and present perceptions
> of men, irrational fears about her current relationship, and so on,
> maybe tying it in to Buffy's issues. I will write no such thesis.
> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
Actually I'd have said the same about Olaf as about Buffy's take on Xander
and Anya's miraculour love. The idea is fine, the performance is OTT, a
pantomine troll.
> Mid-episode, things aren't faring so well. A good general rule is
> that I tend to enjoy characters sniping at each other more during
> peacetime than wartime, so to speak. Things cross the border into
> over-stupidity territory too. Worst moment of that for me would be the
> actual casting of the spell that releases Olaf. This is an example of
> something Jane did in GWBG recently too, in which a joke is set up for
> the audience way in advance, and then the scene leisurely meanders
> towards that obvious endpoint in as predictable a manner as possible.
> Bleah, says I.
Works for me. Humour isn't only found in sudden surprises.
>
> Last week I couldn't buy the male-bonding moment between Spike and
> Riley. Well, our favorite British vampire has a natural chemistry with
> Xander, and their moment of chilling together feels entirely natural.
> Make your own joke about the real sexual tension being between these
> two, but I've always liked their scenes together, particularly last
> season during the common-loser phase. I always thought they got a
> little overshadowed by the also-good Spike/Giles stuff. Anyway, eating
> wings while bitching about the women in their lives and neither really
> listening to what the other one is saying... quite entertaining.
I think they are listening. It's just that Spike wants to turn the
conversation to himself.
>
> This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed Anyway
> moment(s):
> - Spike's one-sided argument with his Buffy-mannequin
> - "They've got this onion thing..."
> - "You want credit for not feeding on bleeding disaster victims?!"
> "Well, yeah." [Humor-with-a-point too; Spike's going against his
> nature here.]
But only when Buffy's around. Earlier when Olaf asks where to find babies,
its (aside, to Xander) "What do you think, the hospital?"
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
> many wrong notes.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I think I'd agree with Decent. A good-ish Decent. I probably rate it a
little higher than it deserves because it's such a relief after all the
turgid stuff we have been through lately. There is some good humour here (I
liked the early convent scene, and Buffy's three essential questions about
the religious life - "you know, um, with the whole ... abjuring the company
of men ... you know, how's that working for you? The... abjuring." & "Do
you, do you have to be like super-religious?" & "How's the food?"). But
there is lame stuff too. However, although it's not the best comic relief
episode they've ever done, it is arguably the most necessary. For me its the
92nd best BtVS episode, 11th best in season 5.
--
Apteryx
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> "gay now,"
> I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
> threat to Xander's faithfulness),
Apart from the bit where she actually identifies herself as gay.
You misspelled "some people have expressed the opinion; others have
disagreed".
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Stephen Tempest
>Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
>find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
>besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
>repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
>feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
>obsessing about people breaking up.
When I saw you'd done the review of Triangle, I confess my first
reaction was to think "silly Jane Espensen humour episode... bet he's
only rated it Decent" and scroll down to see your summary. So, yay
me. <g>
I wasn't a fan of the Buffy-crying scenes either, but I'm pretty sure
it was supposed to be an exaggeration (by the writer and director) for
comic effect.
>Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
>with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
>and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
>more attractive daughters!"
He's also the subject of one line which became an instant classic,
from Xander:
"That's insane troll logic!"
As you might expect, that's a favourite to be quoted in any online
Buffy forum...
Stephen
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up.
It's almost stupid enough to come back around and be funny. But not
quite. "They have a miraculous love!" has been used by fans, but
generally in a mocking sense.
> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke [...snip]
> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
It's Kubiak! Heh. Abe Benrubi was an inspired casting choice. And
while I did kind of wish Olaf had said "Eat now!" at some point, I
think it was funnier for him to be rather articulate. You don't
normally expect a troll to say things like, "emasculating."
I enjoy the bickering between Anya and Willow, although Anya driving
for supposedly the first time was really stupid, and not in the
TIRSBILA sense.
I think it was William George Ferguson who has commented several times
on Alyson Hannigan's natural default acting style, which is
rubber-faced mugging. That was certainly on display in this ep. I
wonder whether first-time director Hibler encouraged that or just
didn't know to dial her back a bit. It worked for this episode.
> Back to doing endings that go somewhere totally different from the
> episode that preceded them. Dawn overhears her sister talking about
> her. And, uh, that's it. Of the ways to move this plot along,
> that's not the one I'd have gone with.
Yes, I'm not a fan of the "character overhears only part of a
conversation and gets the wrong idea" method of plot advancement
myself. See also: Dead Man's Party.
-- MZ
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
> is funnier than the finished scene.
Not to mention it's one of the series's other huge continuity errors.
Remember back in "Graduation Day" when Anya was splitting town and she
came to the school to convince Xander to go with her? There was this
little bit of dialog:
ANYA
Xander.
XANDER
What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
ANYA
Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside.
Michael Ikeda
news:1151237559....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>
>> Back to doing endings that go somewhere totally different from
>> the episode that preceded them. Dawn overhears her sister
>> talking about her. And, uh, that's it. Of the ways to move
>> this plot along, that's not the one I'd have gone with.
>
> Yes, I'm not a fan of the "character overhears only part of a
> conversation and gets the wrong idea" method of plot advancement
> myself. See also: Dead Man's Party.
>
I don't think "wrong idea" is exactly the right phrase for Dawn
overhearing part of the conversation. I'd say she's getting another
piece of the "right idea", she just hasn't gotten all of it yet.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
alphakitten
I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
> threat to Xander's faithfulness)
I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
~Angel
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up. It's not that funny, plus Gellar
> isn't very convincing. Plus, given what she's gone through, and
> given that the first half gives us a convincing picture of someone
> who's hurting trying to lie to herself that she's coping, and can
> heal without the big drama... I feel a little bad turning it into a
> joke. Plus the episode keeps using it, over and over. It's a little
> sad that, although there's a lot to like about "Triangle," my
> memory of it will probably always be dominated by the Buffy-in-tears
> scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
> Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
Possibly one of the reasons you don't like them is because it's about
Riley. However, to return to an actual point... the writers may have
deeply resented the fact that so many people didn't like Riley because
he was wholesome and nice. Let's not forget the vocal "Angel & Buffy
Forever!" people. Can you imagine how crippled and soon the series
would have ended if they hadn't moved Angel out of the picture? "They
can't consumate their relationship because they're afraid he'll lose
his soul again. Angst angst angst and more angst. Buffy can't try
another man because she is interested in no one but Angel, because
we've made their relationship enormous and potent. Plus, we're making
ever so much more money now that we've got both the Angel and Buffy
series going, so tell them to f* off!"
So here they've moved Riley out of the picture THANK GOD HE DIDN'T GET
HIS OWN SHOW. But they always intended Buffy to be deeply attached to
him, even if many in the audience can't stand a nice guy showing them
how incapable they are of getting a girl like Buffy... and perhaps they
resent that. So, hey! Buffy doesn't get over losing Riley, certainly
not this soon because then she'd seem more emotionally shallow than
Willow, who took how many episodes to get over Oz having left?
Michael Ikeda
news:1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
> (or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Christopher Hibler
>
> This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed
> Anyway moment(s):
> - Spike's one-sided argument with his Buffy-mannequin
> - "They've got this onion thing..."
> - "You want credit for not feeding on bleeding disaster
> victims?!" "Well, yeah." [Humor-with-a-point too; Spike's going
> against his nature here.]
> - Xander trying to have a heroic moment ("you are not touching
> these women!") and getting thrown across the room for his
> troubles. About twelve times in a row
> - Another mention of the world without shrimp.
- Buffy's questioning of the nun...
- "I trust these Watchers about as far as ... you could throw them."
- Buffy and Dawn teasing Joyce
- Willow: We can come by between classes! Usually I use that time to
copy over my class notes with a system of different colored pens ...
but it's been pointed out to me that that's, you know, insane.
Tara: I said "quirky."
-"Ooh! I met a nun and she let me try on her wimple."
(I basically loved the whole scene where the Scoobies learn about
Giles' trip.)
- Willow and Tara explaining "The Cat in the Hat" to Anya.
- "She endangered the money!"
- Buffy: Well, maybe we would have had time to clean it up. You know,
if Willow used some magicks to help.
Giles: Yes, 'cause nothing could possibly go wrong with that.
Just to mention a few...
At any rate, I liked it a lot more than AOQ, liking basically
everything he liked and a lot more. There's a lot of funny stuff in
the episode but it also tells us a lot about where the characters are
emotionally and ties into several ongoing plot arcs.
> AOQ rating: Decent
JJ Karhu
She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
suddenly turn all gay, you know.
// JJ
Rowan Hawthorn
Generally because- well, because it *fits* the situation so well at times...
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> So here they've moved Riley out of the picture THANK GOD HE DIDN'T GET
> HIS OWN SHOW. But they always intended Buffy to be deeply attached to
> him, even if many in the audience can't stand a nice guy showing them
> how incapable they are of getting a girl like Buffy... and perhaps they
> resent that. So, hey! Buffy doesn't get over losing Riley, certainly
> not this soon because then she'd seem more emotionally shallow than
> Willow, who took how many episodes to get over Oz having left?
>
Um... *All* of them right up until someone else entered the picture and
kinda swept her off her feet? (In a quiet, non-aggressive,
let-her-think-it's-*her*-idea sorta way, of course...)
alphakitten
Ab, lbh qba'g whfg fhqqrayl ghea tnl. Crbcyr qb ubjrire, *pbzr gb
ernyvmr* gung gurl'er tnl. Juvpu vf jung unccrarq gb Jvyybj.
~Angel
EGK
wrote:
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
>many wrong notes.
I don't really know what you like in particular about the series but one
suggestion. If you like the more humorous episodes, re-watch this one and
learn to enjoy it. :)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
alphakitten
> On 24 Jun 2006 20:03:39 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>So...
>>
>>One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
>>many wrong notes.
>
>
> I don't really know what you like in particular about the series but one
> suggestion. If you like the more humorous episodes, re-watch this one and
> learn to enjoy it. :)
FWIW, it took me a few viewings to truly love this one. I'm not sure why.
~Angel
EGK
wrote:
Gung'f jul fb znal crbcyr ungrq vg naq sryg vg jnf n pbc-bhg nf Wbff
cnaqrerq gb tnl snaf jub ghearq Jvyybj naq Gnen va gb tnl vpbaf. Sbe znal
bs hf vg vainyvqngrq gur rzbgvbany vzcnpg bs Jvyybj'f haerdhvggrq srryvatf
sbe Knaqre gura ure jubyr eryngvbafuvc jvgu Bm. Nf vs gung eryngvbafuvc jnf
qbbzrq gb fgneg jvgu bapr Jvyybj ernyvmrq ure "gehr" angher. V qba'g ohl
gung ng nyy. Vg'f whfg nf rnfl gb fnl Jvyybj'f frys vqragvsvpngvba jnf n
jnl gb nffhntr ure bja srryvatf naq obaq zber pybfryl gb Gnen.
Anghenyyl crbcyr pna naq jvyy frr jung gurl jnag gb frr ohg vg'f zl bcvavba
gung Jvyybj'f npgvbaf va gur fubj vgfrys znqr ure ovfrkhny. Fur rira fubjrq
nggenpgvba gb znyrf (Qenphyn naq rira Tvyrf) nsgre ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu
Gnen unf ortha.
EGK
wrote:
Well, I didn't want to spoil anything. This isn't really a spoiler anyway.
I just meant that if he likes humor he better enjoy this one cuz he won't
see much of the funny for a long time. :)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> if Willow used some magicks to help.
> Giles: Yes, 'cause nothing could possibly go wrong with that.
it would be nice if willow realizes her magic often goes awry
before hse hurts or even kills someone
instead she just keeps looking for a shortcut to her problems
alphakitten
> This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed Anyway
> moment(s):
> - Spike's one-sided argument with his Buffy-mannequin
> - "They've got this onion thing..."
> - "You want credit for not feeding on bleeding disaster victims?!"
> "Well, yeah." [Humor-with-a-point too; Spike's going against his
> nature here.]
> - Xander trying to have a heroic moment ("you are not touching these
> women!") and getting thrown across the room for his troubles. About
> twelve times in a row
> - Another mention of the world without shrimp.
>
>
Anya: "I have finesse! I have finesse coming out of my bottom!"
X: "So, how goes the slaying?"
B: "I killed something in a convent last night."
X: "In any other room, a frightening declaration. Here, a welcome
distraction. Tell us all about the killing, Buff."
B: "Pretty standard. Vampire staking. Ooh! But I met a nun, and she let
me try on her wimple."
X: "Okay, now we're back to frightening."
Willow (imitating Anya): "I like money better than people. People can so
rarely be exchanged for goods and/or services."
~Angel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> HIS OWN SHOW. But they always intended Buffy to be deeply attached to
> him, even if many in the audience can't stand a nice guy showing them
> how incapable they are of getting a girl like Buffy... and perhaps they
maybe the problem is riley never beat up buffy
if he had done that once
the fans mightve warmed up to him
nothing says lets get married like a little rape
(cue luke and laura)
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:42:18 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>JJ Karhu wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>>><alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>>>
>>>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>>
>>>
>>>She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>>>suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ab, lbh qba'g whfg fhqqrayl ghea tnl. Crbcyr qb ubjrire, *pbzr gb
>>ernyvmr* gung gurl'er tnl. Juvpu vf jung unccrarq gb Jvyybj.
>
>
> Gung'f jul fb znal crbcyr ungrq vg naq sryg vg jnf n pbc-bhg nf Wbff
> cnaqrerq gb tnl snaf jub ghearq Jvyybj naq Gnen va gb tnl vpbaf. Sbe znal
> bs hf vg vainyvqngrq gur rzbgvbany vzcnpg bs Jvyybj'f haerdhvggrq srryvatf
> sbe Knaqre gura ure jubyr eryngvbafuvc jvgu Bm. Nf vs gung eryngvbafuvc jnf
> qbbzrq gb fgneg jvgu bapr Jvyybj ernyvmrq ure "gehr" angher. V qba'g ohl
> gung ng nyy. Vg'f whfg nf rnfl gb fnl Jvyybj'f frys vqragvsvpngvba jnf n
> jnl gb nffhntr ure bja srryvatf naq obaq zber pybfryl gb Gnen.
>
Rkprcg sbe gur cneg jurer fur vqragvslf urefrys nf tnl va Gnohyn Enfn,
jurer fur unf ab zrzbel bs nal ernfba fur'q or svoovat nobhg vg. Naq gur
cneg jurer fur pbagvahrq vqragvslvat urefrys nf tnl ybat nsgre Gnen
qvrq. Naq gur cneg va Uvz jurer, qrfcvgr orvat haqre n cnegvphyneyl
cbgrag ybir fcryy, fur ivrjf EW'f cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb "jbex
nebhaq".
> Anghenyyl crbcyr pna naq jvyy frr jung gurl jnag gb frr ohg vg'f zl bcvavba
> gung Jvyybj'f npgvbaf va gur fubj vgfrys znqr ure ovfrkhny. Fur rira fubjrq
> nggenpgvba gb znyrf (Qenphyn naq rira Tvyrf) nsgre ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu
> Gnen unf ortha.
Ohg fur qvq abg fubj nggenpgvba gb znyrf nsgre fur qrfpevorq urefrys nf
tnl.
~Angel
JJ Karhu
<alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>JJ Karhu wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>
>>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>>
>>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>>
>>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>
>>
>> She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>> suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>
>No, you don't just suddenly turn gay. People do however, *come to
>realize* that they're gay. Which is what happened to Willow.
I have no idea why this was in ROT-13.
Concerning that realization: how do you explain her undeniable
attraction to Oz, Xander and even Riley? Bi, plain and simple.
// JJ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
JJ Karhu <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote:
i can understand whedons political agenda
that this was not a college experiment that after she goes back to boys
and that her sexual preference is independent of her morality
dont have a problem with that
or that willow is a rebuttal to the idiot bankes comment about deep dickings
the problem is that showed willows first nineteen years as straight
and lusting after xander and then happily lusting with oz
and suddenly she throws that all way with -gay now-
in an effort to be fair to gays whedon makes it look like its straights
that are an affectation that can be tossed away at first chance
what make sense and isnt a slam on heterosexuality
is if willow is actually bi but channeling her mother
and denying her ozlust for political reasons
(this is the same person who would rather let xander go blind of syphilis
than have buffy vanquish the indigenous peoples avenging ghost
shes willing sacrafice friends to her political gods)
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:42:18 +1000, alphakitten
> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>JJ Karhu wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>>><alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>>>
>>>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>>
>>>
>>>She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>>>suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>>
>>No, you don't just suddenly turn gay. People do however, *come to
>>realize* that they're gay. Which is what happened to Willow.
>
>
> I have no idea why this was in ROT-13.
Orpnhfr vg bppherq gb zr gung NbD znl abg or njner gung Jvyybj qbrfa'g
tb onpx gb oblf gbja naq gung erznex jbhyq gura or fcbvyrel.
>
> Concerning that realization: how do you explain her undeniable
> attraction to Oz, Xander and even Riley? Bi, plain and simple.
>
Naln: "Jvyybj guvaxf fur'f va ybir jvgu zl oblsevraq, E.W."
Ohssl: "Jvyybj, lbh'er n tnl jbzna—naq ur vfa'g."
Jvyybj: "Guvf vfa'g nobhg uvf culfvpny cerfrapr. Vg'f nobhg uvf urneg."
Naln: "Uvf culfvpny cerfrapr unf n cravf!"
Jvyybj: "V pna jbex nebhaq vg!"
Vs Jvyy vf ov, gura jul vf uvf culfvpny cerfprapr na vffhr? Jul vf uvf
cravf fbzrguvat fur unf gb 'jbex nebhaq'? Jul qbrfa'g fur pbeerpg Ohssl
jura fur pnyyf ure n tnl jbzna? Jvyybj vf haqre n fcryy fb fgebat vg
znqr Ohssl nggrzcg zheqre naq Qnja nggrzcg fhvpvqr, lrg fur fgvyy ivrjf
uvf cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb 'jbex nebhaq'. Pnyy zr penml, ohg gung
qbrfa'g frrz ov gb zr.
Ybgf naq ybgf bs tnl crbcyr unir unq fgenvtug eryngvbafuvcf va gurve
cnfg. Vg'f irel abezny naq irel pbzzba. Ng n pregnva cbvag qhevat ure
eryngvbafuvc jvgu Gnen, Jvyybj ernyvmrq fur jnf tnl, gung fur ab ybatre
uneoberq ebznagvp vapyvangvbaf gbjneqf znyrf. Gung'f jul fur pnyyf
urefrys tnl, gung'f jul fur ivrjf EW'f cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb
'jbex nebhaq'.
~Angel
alphakitten
>
> the problem is that showed willows first nineteen years as straight
> and lusting after xander and then happily lusting with oz
> and suddenly she throws that all way with -gay now-
>
> in an effort to be fair to gays whedon makes it look like its straights
> that are an affectation that can be tossed away at first chance
No, he really doesn't. He makes it look like you can have had straight
relationships, and then realize that you're gay. Which is the way it
works for a lot of people. As the daughter of a gay man, I know this
very well.
~Angel
Arbitrar Of Quality
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> >
> > I'm with you on this part. Those scenes really bugged the crap out of me
> > this time. It wasn't the heartfelt tears of "Innocence" or "The Prom."
> > It was just hysterical silliness overdone to annoyance. Her conversation
>
> the pay off is the end of the fight with olaf
> where buffy is whaling away on olaf mostly off camera
> with a few sweeps in front
> and anya xander and willow are watching and commenting on their relations
>
> you couldntve had that scene
> without the earlier sobbing about a perfect relationship
And that would be a loss because...?
-AOQ
EGK
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:42:18 +1000, alphakitten
><alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>JJ Karhu wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>>> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>>>
>>>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>>>
>>>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>>
>>>
>>> She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>>> suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>>
>>No, you don't just suddenly turn gay. People do however, *come to
>>realize* that they're gay. Which is what happened to Willow.
>
>I have no idea why this was in ROT-13.
I was thinking that too but went with it. People bring up things from later
episodes as evidence for their opinions.
>Concerning that realization: how do you explain her undeniable
>attraction to Oz, Xander and even Riley? Bi, plain and simple.
Yup.
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:00:05 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>EGK wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 Jun 2006 20:03:39 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>So...
>>>>
>>>>One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
>>>>many wrong notes.
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't really know what you like in particular about the series but one
>>>suggestion. If you like the more humorous episodes, re-watch this one and
>>>learn to enjoy it. :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>FWIW, it took me a few viewings to truly love this one. I'm not sure why.
>
>
> Well, I didn't want to spoil anything. This isn't really a spoiler anyway.
> I just meant that if he likes humor he better enjoy this one cuz he won't
> see much of the funny for a long time. :)
Ah, true enough! (Although almost every ep has it's funny moments).
~Angel
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>>memory of it will probably always be dominated by the Buffy-in-tears
>>>scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
>>>Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
>>>
>>
>>I'm with you on this part. Those scenes really bugged the crap out of me
>>this time. It wasn't the heartfelt tears of "Innocence" or "The Prom."
>>It was just hysterical silliness overdone to annoyance. Her conversation
>
>
> the pay off is the end of the fight with olaf
> where buffy is whaling away on olaf mostly off camera
> with a few sweeps in front
> and anya xander and willow are watching and commenting on their relations
>
> you couldntve had that scene
> without the earlier sobbing about a perfect relationship
>
> arf meow arf - nsa fodder
> ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
> if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Sure you could. She could've have beaten the snot out of Olaf simply for
the fact he was trying to kill her friends. That's a pretty good reason too.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Abe Benrubi was an inspired casting choice. And
> while I did kind of wish Olaf had said "Eat now!" at some point, I
> think it was funnier for him to be rather articulate. You don't
> normally expect a troll to say things like, "emasculating."
Hadn't thought of it that way before, but agreed with the articulate
bit.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article <1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,> > "gay now,"
>
> > I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
> > actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>
> Apart from the bit where she actually identifies herself as gay.
>
> You misspelled "some people have expressed the opinion; others have
> disagreed".
This already has its own subthread, but let me just say that I've been
convinced by those who argued that it makes sense for Willow, given her
worldview, to identify this way regardless of whether or not it's
actually true. Given that she's been attracted to both males and
females, including a love triangle involving both at the same time, the
reality seems pretty straightforward to me at this point in the series.
-AOQ
EGK
wrote:
>Rkprcg sbe gur cneg jurer fur vqragvslf urefrys nf tnl va Gnohyn Enfn,
>jurer fur unf ab zrzbel bs nal ernfba fur'q or svoovat nobhg vg. Naq gur
>cneg jurer fur pbagvahrq vqragvslvat urefrys nf tnl ybat nsgre Gnen
>qvrq. Naq gur cneg va Uvz jurer, qrfcvgr orvat haqre n cnegvphyneyl
>cbgrag ybir fcryy, fur ivrjf EW'f cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb "jbex
>nebhaq".
>
Gung'f gur cnaqrevat V zragvbarq. V gubhtug nyy gur guvatf lbh zragvba jrer
boivbhf rknzcyrf bs vg. Anghenyyl gung'f zl bcvavba. Jung ernfba jbhyq
fbzrbar unir sbe pbafgnagyl oevatvat hc gurve frkhny vqragvgl? Vg jnf Wbff
naq gur jevgref gryyvat gur nhqvrapr abg Jvyybj fcrnxvat nf n abezny crefba
jbhyq. Znlor fbzr crbcyr qb gung vs gurl'er rkuvovgvbavfgf ohg gung
pregnvayl jnf arire Jvyybj rvgure. V'ir arire zrg nalbar jub jbhyq
vagebqhpr gurzfryirf naq gryy lbh gurve frkhny bevragngvba nf na bss gur
phss erznex. Gnyx nobhg gnpxl.
>> Anghenyyl crbcyr pna naq jvyy frr jung gurl jnag gb frr ohg vg'f zl bcvavba
>> gung Jvyybj'f npgvbaf va gur fubj vgfrys znqr ure ovfrkhny. Fur rira fubjrq
>> nggenpgvba gb znyrf (Qenphyn naq rira Tvyrf) nsgre ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu
>> Gnen unf ortha.
>
>
>
>
>Ohg fur qvq abg fubj nggenpgvba gb znyrf nsgre fur qrfpevorq urefrys nf
>tnl.
rknpgyl. Gur cnaqrevat ntnva. Vg jnf n zrffntr orvat frag gb gur nhqvrapr.
Arirezvaq gung vg zvtug vainyvqngr zhpu bs gur rzbgvbany pbagrag bs gur
rneyvre frnfbaf naq Jvyybj'f rneyvre eryngvbafuvc jvgu Bm. V pna'g vzntvar
jul gurl jbhyq unir pubfra gb qb gung hayrff vg jnf cnaqrevat gb gur tnl
snaf jub frrzrq gb arrq Jvyybj naq Gnen nf ebyr zbqryf.
Mel
Mike Zeares wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>
>>Back to doing endings that go somewhere totally different from the
>>episode that preceded them. Dawn overhears her sister talking about
>>her. And, uh, that's it. Of the ways to move this plot along,
>>that's not the one I'd have gone with.
>
>
> Yes, I'm not a fan of the "character overhears only part of a
> conversation and gets the wrong idea" method of plot advancement
> myself. See also: Dead Man's Party.
>
> -- MZ
>
Except, she's not really getting the wrong idea. There is something
unusual about her and it's something Buffy doesn't want anyone outside
the 3 of them (herself, Joyce, Giles) to know.
Mel
KenM47
>In article <1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
>> is funnier than the finished scene.
>
>Not to mention it's one of the series's other huge continuity errors.
>Remember back in "Graduation Day" when Anya was splitting town and she
>came to the school to convince Xander to go with her? There was this
>little bit of dialog:
>
>ANYA
>Xander.
>
>XANDER
>What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
>
>ANYA
>Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside.
Yes. That was annoying.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>> threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>
>
>
>
>
>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>
>
>
>
> ~Angel
She said it like a writer at a staff meeting. "NOW"? What the heck is
"NOW"?
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Possibly one of the reasons you don't like them is because it's about
> Riley.
[snip]
> So, hey! Buffy doesn't get over losing Riley, certainly
> not this soon because then she'd seem more emotionally shallow than
> Willow, who took how many episodes to get over Oz having left?
Which would explain perfectly why they turn it into a dumb joke.
Obviously I don't know the future, but I saw this episode as their
cheap bit of lip-service one hour to show Buffy dealing wiht the
aftermath before moving on. Based on the show's past history, I
wouldn't be surprised to see her much less mopey soon. At least Tri
seems to be set a few weeks after ITW, so there's still some sense of
the slowness of healing.
-AOQ
Mel
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>>Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
>>find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
>>besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
>>repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
>>feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
>>obsessing about people breaking up. It's not that funny, plus Gellar
>>isn't very convincing. Plus, given what she's gone through, and
>>given that the first half gives us a convincing picture of someone
>>who's hurting trying to lie to herself that she's coping, and can
>>heal without the big drama... I feel a little bad turning it into a
>>joke. Plus the episode keeps using it, over and over. It's a little
>>sad that, although there's a lot to like about "Triangle," my
>>memory of it will probably always be dominated by the Buffy-in-tears
>>scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
>>Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
>
>
>
> Possibly one of the reasons you don't like them is because it's about
> Riley. However, to return to an actual point... the writers may have
> deeply resented the fact that so many people didn't like Riley because
> he was wholesome and nice. Let's not forget the vocal "Angel & Buffy
> Forever!" people. Can you imagine how crippled and soon the series
> would have ended if they hadn't moved Angel out of the picture? "They
> can't consumate their relationship because they're afraid he'll lose
> his soul again. Angst angst angst and more angst. Buffy can't try
> another man because she is interested in no one but Angel, because
> we've made their relationship enormous and potent. Plus, we're making
> ever so much more money now that we've got both the Angel and Buffy
> series going, so tell them to f* off!"
>
> So here they've moved Riley out of the picture THANK GOD HE DIDN'T GET
> HIS OWN SHOW. But they always intended Buffy to be deeply attached to
> him, even if many in the audience can't stand a nice guy showing them
> how incapable they are of getting a girl like Buffy... and perhaps they
> resent that. So, hey! Buffy doesn't get over losing Riley, certainly
> not this soon because then she'd seem more emotionally shallow than
> Willow, who took how many episodes to get over Oz having left?
The problem isn't that she's upset and hurt about Riley leaving. We
already got that message from her conversation with Dawn. The way they
go about the crying bit, though, is just silly. They aren't real tears;
they are exaggerated, this-is-supposed-to-be-funny tears. But it just
isn't funny.
BTW, Riley _was_ wholesome and nice until the writers turned him into a
lying cheating scumbag. :-)
Mel
KenM47
>On 24 Jun 2006 20:03:39 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>So...
>>
>>One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
>>many wrong notes.
>
>I don't really know what you like in particular about the series but one
>suggestion. If you like the more humorous episodes, re-watch this one and
>learn to enjoy it. :)
He doesn't (or so it seems to me). I do. Liked this one a lot. Could
never get too much of chipped Spike as Bizarro comic relief.
I say a strong Good (+), just shy of Excellent (-).
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mel
JJ Karhu wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>
>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>
>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>
>
> She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
> suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>
> // JJ
Willow says "Gay now." Everyone emphasizes the "gay" part of that phrase
to mean that Willow isn't hetero or bi but is, in fact, gay and always
will be from this point on. What about the "now" part of the phrase,
would could imply that she's gay _now_ but wasn't in the past and may
not always be in the future?
Mel
EGK
tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <uq4t92t7agbvfja32...@4ax.com>,
> JJ Karhu <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> >
>> >I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>> >> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>> >> threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>> >
>> >I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>> >beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>
>> She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>> suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>
>i can understand whedons political agenda
I can understand it too but don't necesarilly agree with suddenly turning an
entertaining show in to a message oriented one. That's true whether I agree
with a point of view or not. I believe Joss was quoted once as saying he
didn't want to make heavy-handed "message" shows but I think that's exactly
what he did with this particular subject. Why wasn't it just as well to let
the audience take from it what they wanted to?
>the problem is that showed willows first nineteen years as straight
>and lusting after xander and then happily lusting with oz
>and suddenly she throws that all way with -gay now-
That's the problem I have with it. How do you watch the earlier seasons and
stay emotionally involved in the scenes of Willow's heartbreak when you know
none of it really matters anyway because she was only denying her true
nature? That's crap. Heck, I'm an older man but one scene that always
tugged at my heart was the ice cream on the nose in When She Was Bad. You
can't tell me the writers knew when writing scenes like that that she was
really gay and just hadn't come to terms with it yet.
I personally think bisexual is a description of someone's actions and it
describes Willow.
EGK
wrote:
I guess even the nature of being gay is still argued in some quarters but I
side with the obvious that it's not a choice. You're born that way. Given
that, I don't know how your opinion would change by anything later on in the
series unless they bash you over the head with it so often you lose a few
marbles. -:)
EGK
That's another problem many have with it. It was said as if someone could
change their orientation like they do their socks or underwear.
Mel
EGK wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:04 -0700, Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>JJ Karhu wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>>><alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>>>
>>>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>>
>>>
>>>She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>>>suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>>>
>>>// JJ
>>
>>
>>Willow says "Gay now." Everyone emphasizes the "gay" part of that phrase
>>to mean that Willow isn't hetero or bi but is, in fact, gay and always
>>will be from this point on. What about the "now" part of the phrase,
>>would could imply that she's gay _now_ but wasn't in the past and may
>>not always be in the future?
>
>
> That's another problem many have with it. It was said as if someone could
> change their orientation like they do their socks or underwear.
But if one is bisexual, then it's not really changing at all. It's just
finding attraction wherever it may be and going with it, no matter
whether the other person is male, female, or, as can be the case in the
Buffyverse, demon.
Mel
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:23:01 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Rkprcg sbe gur cneg jurer fur vqragvslf urefrys nf tnl va Gnohyn Enfn,
>>jurer fur unf ab zrzbel bs nal ernfba fur'q or svoovat nobhg vg. Naq gur
>>cneg jurer fur pbagvahrq vqragvslvat urefrys nf tnl ybat nsgre Gnen
>>qvrq. Naq gur cneg va Uvz jurer, qrfcvgr orvat haqre n cnegvphyneyl
>>cbgrag ybir fcryy, fur ivrjf EW'f cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb "jbex
>>nebhaq".
>>
>
>
> Gung'f gur cnaqrevat V zragvbarq. V gubhtug nyy gur guvatf lbh zragvba jrer
> boivbhf rknzcyrf bs vg. Anghenyyl gung'f zl bcvavba. Jung ernfba jbhyq
> fbzrbar unir sbe pbafgnagyl oevatvat hc gurve frkhny vqragvgl?
Constantly? She does it on a few occaisons, always within context.
Vg jnf Wbff
> naq gur jevgref gryyvat gur nhqvrapr abg Jvyybj fcrnxvat nf n abezny crefba
> jbhyq. Znlor fbzr crbcyr qb gung vs gurl'er rkuvovgvbavfgf ohg gung
> pregnvayl jnf arire Jvyybj rvgure.
Abezny tnl crbcyr zragvba gurl'er tnl vs gur pbairefngvba pnyyf sbe vg,
V nffher lbh. Naq V qba'g frr ubj gung'f nal zber na npg bs
rkuvovgvbavfz guna ure crapunag sbe oenttvat nobhg Bm orvat va n onaq.
V'ir arire zrg nalbar jub jbhyq
> vagebqhpr gurzfryirf naq gryy lbh gurve frkhny bevragngvba nf na bss gur
> phss erznex. Gnyx nobhg gnpxl.
>
>
V unir. V qba'g erpnyy Jvyybj qbvat vg, gubhtu.
>>>Anghenyyl crbcyr pna naq jvyy frr jung gurl jnag gb frr ohg vg'f zl bcvavba
>>>gung Jvyybj'f npgvbaf va gur fubj vgfrys znqr ure ovfrkhny. Fur rira fubjrq
>>>nggenpgvba gb znyrf (Qenphyn naq rira Tvyrf) nsgre ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu
>>>Gnen unf ortha.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ohg fur qvq abg fubj nggenpgvba gb znyrf nsgre fur qrfpevorq urefrys nf
>>tnl.
>
>
> rknpgyl. Gur cnaqrevat ntnva. Vg jnf n zrffntr orvat frag gb gur nhqvrapr.
> Arirezvaq gung vg zvtug vainyvqngr zhpu bs gur rzbgvbany pbagrag bs gur
> rneyvre frnfbaf naq Jvyybj'f rneyvre eryngvbafuvc jvgu Bm. V pna'g vzntvar
> jul gurl jbhyq unir pubfra gb qb gung hayrff vg jnf cnaqrevat gb gur tnl
> snaf jub frrzrq gb arrq Jvyybj naq Gnen nf ebyr zbqryf.
Pnyy zr anvir, ohg vg frrzrq irel zhpu gb zr yvxr Wbff jnf fvzcyl
gryyvat gur fgbel ur jnagrq gb gryy.
~Angel
KenM47
KenM47
Sorry about that. No additional post on this point was intended.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
anya and willow lust
hmmmm
are you sure you dont know whats happening in season six?
Elisi
> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
> with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
> and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
> more attractive daughters!" The premise that he's both the reason
> for and a result of Anyanka the vengeance demon is worth a smile.
> I'm not seeing much depth here, although a determined soul could
> probably rustle up a thesis about Anya's past and present perceptions
> of men, irrational fears about her current relationship, and so on,
> maybe tying it in to Buffy's issues. I will write no such thesis.
> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
I'm seriously lacking in time today, and since my contribution would
only be 'Olaf is fun', I thought I'd do some cutting and pasting from
Spring Summer's analysis of this one, since she manages to get a lot of
very interesting thoughts out of what seems to be just harmless
sillyness:
In the last episode, Buffy and company started Into The Woods. This
week, they are taking their first, tentative steps along the dark and
unbeaten path. There are many, many references to people trying
something new and a little scary. <snip examples>
Buffy and her friends are no longer - like Giles or Olaf - Englishmen
in England, or Trolls in the safety and familiarity of Troll-land.
They've begun their journey away from home, and it's time to start
experimenting. The first character Buffy and her friends encounter in
the enchanted forest is, appropriately, Olaf the Troll. He is
certainly the id, the beast within, personified. Note that he mentions
virgins and babies - i.e., the innocent, as his natural victims. He
is cheerfully amoral, with adult-sized drives and propensities for sex
and food and violence (sans the governing ego of the adult). He seeks
immediate gratification, is insatiable ("You cannot appease me! Do
not try!"), and he is childlike in his wholly irrational and easily
distractible approach to his surroundings. Allowed to run wild, he
leaves a terrible troll trail of destruction, ceaselessly damaging
property and injuring others as he seeks to fulfill his needs.
The biggest challenge of adulthood is to not surrender to the twin
temptations to completely deny, or to completely indulge, our own
Olafs. We must each eventually meet our personal Olaf head on, and
take control of him. But as we see in this episode, Buffy, Spike & the
Scoobies aren't quite ready to control Olaf; they simply send him
away. Reminders of their past youthful indiscretions abound, as we
note that Olaf isn't the only one who has left a rather messy trail.
[remember the Scoobies past relationships]
Also underlining the still unformed nature of everyone's ability to
deal with their inner Olafs are the many references to what is
"insane," and the scenes involving each of them struggling with
irrational and emotional responses to stimuli.
Underneath it all, Buffy, Spike, & The Scoobies are hungry, anxious,
and struggling to meet their needs for food, sex, love, acceptance, and
self-knowledge. And it is so very, very hard to control Olaf, when
he's hungry.
BUFFY: "About being a nun - you know, with the whole abjuring the
company of men? You know, how's that working for you? The
abjuring?"
NUN: "Um - good."
BUFFY: "Do you have to be, like, super-religious?"
NUN: "Well - uh -"
BUFFY: "How's the food?"
Yes, you do have to be super-religious, Buffy. 'Cause I'm thinking
the food may be good, but it's not _that_ good. It takes effort and
true commitment to get Olaf on a leash. It also takes strong
self-awareness and vigilance, as well as support from others. Watch
this ep closely and note how many times people deal with the actual, or
the figurative, appearance of Olaf, by ducking or by hiding behind
other people. And notice also the continued mention of signals, and
the importance of watching for the signs to avoid surprise and
unexpected blows.
You must develop the wisdom to avoid Olaf's blows, AND the strength
to fight against him, because you can't hide behind others always or
forever.
But as we hear in Buffy's conversation with the nun, she doesn't
quite understand, not yet, the power of Olaf, and what it takes to
contain him. Notice that he has more than one source of strength. And
note in particular Buffy's pigtails and childish appearance and
behavior in this episode. Ultimately, Olaf's vicious acts are not
what energize Buffy in her fight against him - it is his attack on her
idealized view of romantic love that gives her the extra boost she
needs to defeat him. You want Buffy to really, violently hurt you?
Try challenging her cherished, childlike view and definition of
romantic love.
No, Buffy is not quite ready to face her Olaf, or even acknowledge his
existence within her, not yet. Buffy's fear of the woods, of letting
go of her childhood and of entering the world of adulthood, is further
demonstrated in her comments about change:
* To Joyce: ""You! You with the actual clothing! Who are you?"
Buffy is just teasing here, but still, this is a comment about
discomfort with change.
* To Dawn: "Stop being insightful. It's creepy." Growth and
change in Dawn is a disquieting experience for Buffy.
* To Spike (after noticing that he is helping a bleeding woman):
"What are you doing?" Buffy's tone indicates she could easily
have added, "Stop being kind. It's creepy."
Englishmen belong in England. Trolls belong in the Land of the Trolls.
It's creepy, otherwise. Also emphasizing Buffy's reluctance to
head into those fearful woods is the difference between her treatment
of Dawn (her innocent girly side) and Spike (her dark side) during the
episode. After putting down a beauty magazine she has been reading in
her room, she allows Dawn on to her bed, and gently strokes Dawn's
hair. Dawn is wearing a t-shirt which says "Glamour is my
occupation." In contrast, Buffy ignores Spike at first, and then
later demonstrates disgust and suspicion of him. It's been three
years since Halloween, but part of Buffy is still hanging on to the
dream of being a girl whose job is being beautiful.
And though part of Buffy might want to live forever in the Land of the
Starry-eyed High Schoolers, Willow tells us at the end of this episode:
"Alternate universes don't stay put." I'm sure they don't.
And regardless of her reasons, Buffy does beat Olaf, doesn't she?
Ultimately, it all foreshadows Buffy's eventual successful
integration of her conflicting selves, as she reaches adulthood.
And what do we see in Xander? Xander makes an attempt to get Olaf
under control by suggesting that Olaf eat "some roast pigs and
stags" instead of babies. He offers moral means of satiating the
Troll's hunger. He also suggests that they sit down "for a calm
talk." But this doesn't work, and later, Xander finds himself
badly beaten by Olaf as he fights to keep him from harming Willow or
Anya. That's quite a picture, isn't it? Olaf, in his role as the
beast within, is a terrible threat to the women in Xander's life.
Xander tries to fight that beast, but he is just not strong enough
("far too breakable!"). So Xander demonstrates that he currently
lacks the means to beat back his Olaf. But in his willingness to
confront Olaf against all odds (both with his brain and his body), and
in his brave and stubborn refusal to let Olaf control his options,
decisions, or behavior, Xander shows us the great potential he has to
one day conquer his inner demon.
But with Olaf representing the id, is it any surprise that Spike is
absolutely powerless against him? "Do what you like," he says to
Olaf. He has no interest in fighting the beast ("I'm paralyzed
with not caring very much.") until Buffy's appearance motivates him
to give it a try. But he doesn't even know enough to duck, or to
hide. He confronts him head on, yes, but he goes down, flat on his
back, at the first incidental blow. That's our Spike: A victim to
his inner Olaf, to the amoral gratification of his physical and
emotional needs, and to his instinctual life. His lack of a moral
compass leaves him almost painfully clueless, as he guilelessly seeks
Xander's opinion about where Olaf might find babies to eat. And
later, he is genuinely baffled by Buffy's failure to be impressed by
his "not feeding on bleeding disaster victims." But still, his
ability to control his hunger amongst all those "lovely blood-covered
people," despite his vampiric nature, is, in its own way, as
extraordinary as Xander's fight. It seems that in his Buffy-love,
there is hope. There is hope for growth and for the day when Buffy's
[physical] presence may no longer be needed to motivate Spike to fight
for control over his Olaf.
Our words and actions can have profound impact on others and our
surroundings. There are many images regarding the way we all influence
each other's growth and final form. Once Willow and Anya
communicate, after they have cleared the air, once they "let it
out" and face their problems, they work together effectively. Anya
and Willow compliment and encourage one another, as Anya distracts
Olaf, while Willow does her successful spell to rid Olaf of his hammer.
"I have faith in you, Anya," says Willow, providing the
encouragement the newly-human Anya needs.
Letting it all out isn't necessarily a bad thing - it can be a good
thing, a freeing thing, to loosen up a bit and let that Cat in The Hat
into the house. Motives and methods are important:
OLAF: "What are you fighting for, miniscule blonde one?"
Cursing and bashing someone over the skull with a box of candy because
she won't be your girlfriend? Bad. Suddenly throwing yourself at
the mercy of an angry troll in order to save your precious loved one?
Good.
~~~
Sheesh that was long. I hope someone enjoys it though.
EGK
wrote:
>I've never met anyone who would
>> introduce themselves and tell you their sexual orientation as an off the
>> cuff remark. Talk about tacky.
>>
>>
>
>
>I have. I don't recall Willow doing it, though.
Gung jnf va gur pebffbire Natry rcvfbqr qhevat frnfba 6 jura fur zrg Serq.
>Call me naive, but it seemed very much to me like Joss was simply
>telling the story he wanted to tell.
So you believe that's how Joss wrote Willow all along? Or did he switch it
up afterwards to send a message? No offense but I think if you believe they
had that in mind all along i'm calling you naive. :)
JJ Karhu
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:26:25 +0300, JJ Karhu <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:42:18 +1000, alphakitten
>><alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>JJ Karhu wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:17:13 +1000, alphakitten
>>>> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>>>>>
>>>>>>actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>>>>>>threat to Xander's faithfulness)
>>>>>
>>>>>I understand the assumption of bisexuality up to this point, but not
>>>>>beyond it. She's gay. She said so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She can say she is blue but that does not make her so. You don't just
>>>> suddenly turn all gay, you know.
>>>
>>>No, you don't just suddenly turn gay. People do however, *come to
>>>realize* that they're gay. Which is what happened to Willow.
>>
>>I have no idea why this was in ROT-13.
>
>I was thinking that too but went with it. People bring up things from later
>episodes as evidence for their opinions.
>
>>Concerning that realization: how do you explain her undeniable
>>attraction to Oz, Xander and even Riley? Bi, plain and simple.
>
>Yup.
It looks to me like for some people, being bi is somehow worse than
being "just gay". It should be noted that "100% straight/gay" people
are pretty rare, with most people having some bisexual tendencies.
// JJ
EGK
Exactly. Maybe I read you wrong. I'm saying she was shown as bisexual by
her actions.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:23:01 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Rkprcg sbe gur cneg jurer fur vqragvslf urefrys nf tnl va Gnohyn Enfn,
> >jurer fur unf ab zrzbel bs nal ernfba fur'q or svoovat nobhg vg. Naq gur
> >cneg jurer fur pbagvahrq vqragvslvat urefrys nf tnl ybat nsgre Gnen
> >qvrq. Naq gur cneg va Uvz jurer, qrfcvgr orvat haqre n cnegvphyneyl
> >cbgrag ybir fcryy, fur ivrjf EW'f cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb "jbex
> >nebhaq".
oynax jvyybj fgnegf guvaxvat furf oynax knaqref tveysevraq
naq qbrfag fubj nal ceboyrzf jvgu vapvcvrag yhfgl srryvatf
naq gura jura fur unf yhfgl srryvatf sbe oynax gnen
vgf onpx gb gur abgvba gung jvyybj unf gb or bar be gur bgure abg obgu
jvyybj unf yhfgl srryvat sbe ew naq vtaberf uvf frk
hagvy nsgre naln cbvagf bhg furf tnl abj
naq gungf jura fur qrpvqrf gb erfrk uvz
> >Ohg fur qvq abg fubj nggenpgvba gb znyrf nsgre fur qrfpevorq urefrys nf
> >tnl.
be pubbfr gb fhccerff fhpu srryvatf
abg gung fur unq n ybg bs pubvprf
gur fubj orpbzr njnfu va rfgebtra
nf gur svanyr nccebnpurq
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
> > is funnier than the finished scene.
>
> Not to mention it's one of the series's other huge continuity errors.
> Remember back in "Graduation Day" when Anya was splitting town and she
> came to the school to convince Xander to go with her? There was this
> little bit of dialog:
>
> ANYA
> Xander.
>
> XANDER
> What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
>
> ANYA
> Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside.
Maybe she'd hired a car and driver to take her to the airport.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
JJ Karhu
<alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Naln: "Jvyybj guvaxf fur'f va ybir jvgu zl oblsevraq, E.W."
>
>Ohssl: "Jvyybj, lbh'er n tnl jbzna—naq ur vfa'g."
>
>Jvyybj: "Guvf vfa'g nobhg uvf culfvpny cerfrapr. Vg'f nobhg uvf urneg."
>
>Naln: "Uvf culfvpny cerfrapr unf n cravf!"
>
>Jvyybj: "V pna jbex nebhaq vg!"
>
>
>Vs Jvyy vf ov, gura jul vf uvf culfvpny cerfprapr na vffhr? Jul vf uvf
>cravf fbzrguvat fur unf gb 'jbex nebhaq'? Jul qbrfa'g fur pbeerpg Ohssl
>jura fur pnyyf ure n tnl jbzna? Jvyybj vf haqre n fcryy fb fgebat vg
>znqr Ohssl nggrzcg zheqre naq Qnja nggrzcg fhvpvqr, lrg fur fgvyy ivrjf
>uvf cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb 'jbex nebhaq'. Pnyy zr penml, ohg gung
>qbrfa'g frrz ov gb zr.
E.W. vf n wbpx, naq Jvyybj vfa'g nggenpgrq gb ntterffvir nycun-znyr
glcrf. Bm naq Knaqre ner obgu dhvgr aba-guerngravat naq cnffvir. Lrg,
ur srryf nggenpgrq, fb vg zhfg or gur culfvpny gung vf "jebat" -- naq
fur pna svk vg.
// JJ
EGK
I don't want to continue this too long because it's been done to death. I
even had people wishing me death over my opinion in the past on here. :)
Talk about taking it too serious.
I have a friend who lives in San Francisco and believe it or not, was going
through a similar thing as Willow at almost the exact time the show was on.
She divorced her husband and met a woman there and she considered herself
bi- sexual. The thing is, the woman she met hung with a group of hardcore
lesbians and they wouldn't accept my friend at all. They would make
comments to her girlfriend about how it wouldn't work out because she wasn't
"really gay" and things like that.
The point being that even groups who are often victims of prejudice have no
problem administrating their own brand of prejudice on someone else. I
guess it's human nature. I don't know.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> >
> > the problem is that showed willows first nineteen years as straight
> > and lusting after xander and then happily lusting with oz
> > and suddenly she throws that all way with -gay now-
> >
> > in an effort to be fair to gays whedon makes it look like its straights
> > that are an affectation that can be tossed away at first chance
>
>
>
>
>
> No, he really doesn't. He makes it look like you can have had straight
> relationships, and then realize that you're gay. Which is the way it
> works for a lot of people. As the daughter of a gay man, I know this
> very well.
ask if he had lusty feelings for girls and even a happy sexual relation with one
and then the first time another man expressed interest with no overt sexuality
he decided he was gay
more likely he had a long time of trying to make straight relations work
and found himself drawn to other men instead
before he realized what he really wanted
problem is we dont see that in willow
she went from satisfied ozlust to satisfied taralust
with no struggle in between
the only struggle was how to tell oz not how she felt to tara
Eric Hunter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes
> in these review threads.
>
>
> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
>
> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way? You don't
> find it particularly offensive, but you do find it painfully unfunny
> besides not making much sense to begin with, yet your friends keep
> repeating it over and over? It's a downer. Anyway, that's how I
> feel about the joke of Buffy frequently bursting into tears and
> obsessing about people breaking up. It's not that funny, plus Gellar
> isn't very convincing. Plus, given what she's gone through, and
> given that the first half gives us a convincing picture of someone
> who's hurting trying to lie to herself that she's coping, and can
> heal without the big drama... I feel a little bad turning it into a
> joke. Plus the episode keeps using it, over and over. It's a little
> sad that, although there's a lot to like about "Triangle," my
> memory of it will probably always be dominated by the Buffy-in-tears
> scenes. It's enough to drag down a reviewer's whole rating.
> Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
ITAWTP. The best BtVS humor comes from the characters.
This is a poor caricature, and not funny, as a result.
It doesn't make sense for Buffy to especially care
whether Xander and Anya stay together, Buffy doesn't
like Anya all that much, and Buffy has no special
powers where relationships are concerned.
> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
> with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
> and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
> more attractive daughters!" The premise that he's both the reason
> for and a result of Anyanka the vengeance demon is worth a smile.
> I'm not seeing much depth here, although a determined soul could
> probably rustle up a thesis about Anya's past and present perceptions
> of men, irrational fears about her current relationship, and so on,
> maybe tying it in to Buffy's issues. I will write no such thesis.
> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
LOL, yup, gotta love Olaf.
> While we're on that, this is the debut of "gay now," (some people
> suggested that would be a recurring thing in the "New Moon Rising"
> thread). She's got a little Vamp!Willow in her, or the other way
> around. I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
> threat to Xander's faithfulness), and also the fact that it makes
> sense for Willow would think about it the way she does, regardless.
Uh oh. While your view is rational and reasonable,
this, like Spike as a fool for love, is a MAJOR
topic of ... well, let's not call it debate, since,
like Spike, it is mostly the two sides shouting at
each other, but this could be another long, long
thread.
> Last week I couldn't buy the male-bonding moment between Spike and
> Riley. Well, our favorite British vampire has a natural chemistry with
> Xander, and their moment of chilling together feels entirely natural.
> Make your own joke about the real sexual tension being between these
> two, but I've always liked their scenes together, particularly last
> season during the common-loser phase. I always thought they got a
> little overshadowed by the also-good Spike/Giles stuff. Anyway, eating
> wings while bitching about the women in their lives and neither really
> listening to what the other one is saying... quite entertaining. I
> love the idea that William is obsessed with the belief that Buffy
> blames him for what happened with Riley when in fact the situation
> persists in not being about him, one way or the other.
Yes, and the share a common bond of love for Buffy
that is not returned.
> One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
> many wrong notes.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Agreed.
Eric.
--
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> being "just gay". It should be noted that "100% straight/gay" people
it is
theyre an even smaller slice of the population than gays
and they get attacked by both gays and straights
thats why i place willows motivation as political rather emotional
Don Sample
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
> JJ Karhu wrote:
> > Concerning that realization: how do you explain her undeniable
> > attraction to Oz, Xander and even Riley? Bi, plain and simple.
> >
>
>
> Naln: "Jvyybj guvaxf fur'f va ybir jvgu zl oblsevraq, E.W."
>
> Ohssl: "Jvyybj, lbh'er n tnl jbzna‹naq ur vfa'g."
>
> Jvyybj: "Guvf vfa'g nobhg uvf culfvpny cerfrapr. Vg'f nobhg uvf urneg."
>
> Naln: "Uvf culfvpny cerfrapr unf n cravf!"
>
> Jvyybj: "V pna jbex nebhaq vg!"
>
>
> Vs Jvyy vf ov, gura jul vf uvf culfvpny cerfprapr na vffhr? Jul vf uvf
> cravf fbzrguvat fur unf gb 'jbex nebhaq'? Jul qbrfa'g fur pbeerpg Ohssl
> jura fur pnyyf ure n tnl jbzna? Jvyybj vf haqre n fcryy fb fgebat vg
> znqr Ohssl nggrzcg zheqre naq Qnja nggrzcg fhvpvqr, lrg fur fgvyy ivrjf
> uvf cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb 'jbex nebhaq'. Pnyy zr penml, ohg gung
> qbrfa'g frrz ov gb zr.
Fbpvny cerffher. Fur unf vqragvsvrq urefrys nf "tnl" naq gurersber gur
cravf orpbzrf fbzrguvat gung fur unf gb jbex nebhaq, rira gubhtu ure bja
angheny graqrapvrf qba'g unir nal ceboyrz jvgu vg. Fur unf gb fnl gung
vg'f n ceboyrz, va beqre gb svg jvgu gur frys-vzntr gung fur unf perngrq
sbe urefrys.
Gurer vf rabezbhf fbpvny cerffher ntnvafg orvat ovfrkhny. Gurl trg vg
sebz obgu fvqrf.
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:40:59 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've never met anyone who would
>>
>>>introduce themselves and tell you their sexual orientation as an off the
>>>cuff remark. Talk about tacky.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>I have. I don't recall Willow doing it, though.
>
>
> Gung jnf va gur pebffbire Natry rcvfbqr qhevat frnfba 6 jura fur zrg Serq.
>
>
>
>>Call me naive, but it seemed very much to me like Joss was simply
>>telling the story he wanted to tell.
>
>
> So you believe that's how Joss wrote Willow all along? Or did he switch it
> up afterwards to send a message?
No, another path presented itself which he liked better. And what
message? There's no more message in her being gay than bi.
~Angel
burt...@hotmail.com
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
This is a bit of a weird one for me. If I were to look at it
objectively, I'd probably be forced to admit that it's a bad episode.
But this is a place in the series where I can enjoy it without too much
trouble. Olaf was funny, there was some funny dialogue (and some
not-so-good dialogue too), and a couple of decent character moments.
This is one I like probably more than the episode itself deserves, so
I'd call it good.
Although how Xander could possibly have survived that beating he got,
I'll never know.
alphakitten
It looks to me like for some people, being gay is somehow worse than
being bi.
~Angel
George W Harris
wrote:
:> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
:> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke [...snip]
:> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
:
:It's Kubiak! Heh. Abe Benrubi was an inspired casting choice.
Never having seen PLCL, I kept picturing
Olaf as the receptionist at an emergency room...
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
EGK
wrote:
>EGK wrote:
>> So you believe that's how Joss wrote Willow all along? Or did he switch it
>> up afterwards to send a message?
>
>No, another path presented itself which he liked better. And what
>message? There's no more message in her being gay than bi.
>
The message that being gay is normal. I didn't say it was a bad message.
It's the preaching I felt they did to accentuate it. If you don't think
they did that, why make a point of Willow being gay rather than bi? Why
make a point of her sexuality at all? Why not just show her and Tara in a
committed relationship and to hell with labels?
As others have mentioned in this thread, bi-sexuals often get flack from
both straights and gays. It's as if they're being forced to choose a side
and it often seems to be a "for me or against me" type of mentality. It's
ironic that often the same groups that feel persecuted have no problems
doing it to others. That's why I didn't like the episode, Family. Why
was the only way to get the point across to label and stereotype others? I
mean, come on. Let's make a point that Tara is normal by trotting out her
Bible toting redneck family? uggh
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:40:59 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've never met anyone who would
>>
>>>introduce themselves and tell you their sexual orientation as an off the
>>>cuff remark. Talk about tacky.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>I have. I don't recall Willow doing it, though.
>
>
> Gung jnf va gur pebffbire Natry rcvfbqr qhevat frnfba 6 jura fur zrg Serq.
>
Uhu? Fur oyhegf bhg "V'z frrvat fbzrbar". Fur qbrfa'g zragvba gurve frk.
~Angel
EGK
wrote:
>On 25 Jun 2006 05:12:39 -0700, "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>:> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
>:> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke [...snip]
>:> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
>:
>:It's Kubiak! Heh. Abe Benrubi was an inspired casting choice.
>
> Never having seen PLCL, I kept picturing
>Olaf as the receptionist at an emergency room...
Funny how actors can be stereotyped in certain roles. I thought of ER too.
The actor was prety good in the western, Open Range but in that I kept
seeing Olaf. :)
EGK
wrote:
>EGK wrote:
>> Gung jnf va gur pebffbire Natry rcvfbqr qhevat frnfba 6 jura fur zrg Serq.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Uhu? Fur oyhegf bhg "V'z frrvat fbzrbar". Fur qbrfa'g zragvba gurve frk.
Bu, lbh'er evtug. Fur qbrfa'g. Fur whfg nffhzrf Serq vf uvggvat ba ure
orpnhfr fur'f npgvat avpr.
alphakitten
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <v5dt92ddiljdnbm4r...@4ax.com>, EGK <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:23:01 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Rkprcg sbe gur cneg jurer fur vqragvslf urefrys nf tnl va Gnohyn Enfn,
>>>jurer fur unf ab zrzbel bs nal ernfba fur'q or svoovat nobhg vg. Naq gur
>>>cneg jurer fur pbagvahrq vqragvslvat urefrys nf tnl ybat nsgre Gnen
>>>qvrq. Naq gur cneg va Uvz jurer, qrfcvgr orvat haqre n cnegvphyneyl
>>>cbgrag ybir fcryy, fur ivrjf EW'f cravf nf fbzrguvat fur unf gb "jbex
>>>nebhaq".
>>
>
> oynax jvyybj fgnegf guvaxvat furf oynax knaqref tveysevraq
> naq qbrfag fubj nal ceboyrzf jvgu vapvcvrag yhfgl srryvatf
> naq gura jura fur unf yhfgl srryvatf sbe oynax gnen
> vgf onpx gb gur abgvba gung jvyybj unf gb or bar be gur bgure abg obgu
>
>
>
>
Gung jnf gur fubj'f qrpvfvba. Gurl qrpvqrq fur jnf bar naq abg obgu naq
jebgr ure nppbeqvatyl. Gnxr vg hc jvgu Wbff.
> jvyybj unf yhfgl srryvat sbe ew naq vtaberf uvf frk<
Re, ab. Jvyybj sbphfrf ba uvf urneg juvyr qvfzvffvat uvf culfvpny
cerfprapr, gura unf gb jbex nebhaq uvf cravf.
~Angel
Rincewind
>> Not to mention it's one of the series's other huge continuity errors.
>> Remember back in "Graduation Day" when Anya was splitting town and she
>> came to the school to convince Xander to go with her? There was this
>> little bit of dialog:
>>
>> ANYA
>> Xander.
>>
>> XANDER
>> What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
>>
>> ANYA
>> Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside.
>
> Maybe she'd hired a car and driver to take her to the airport.
>
No, she is going to drive:
ANYA: We could just get in the car and drive. No one would miss us. We could
take turns driving, keep each other awake.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
GILES: I'm fed up of repeatedly cleaning my glasses. I'm getting contacts.
alphakitten
Jung'f jebat vf uvf cravf. Xraarql jnf na ntterffvir nycun-srznyr,
Jvyybj yvxrq ure whfg svar.
~Angel
George W Harris
<alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
:>>I have. I don't recall Willow doing it, though.
:>
:>
:> Gung jnf va gur pebffbire Natry rcvfbqr qhevat frnfba 6 jura fur zrg Serq.
:>
:
:
:Uhu? Fur oyhegf bhg "V'z frrvat fbzrbar". Fur qbrfa'g zragvba gurve frk.
Naq fur gubhtug Serq jnf pbzvat ba gb ure
(fgvyy n srj xvaxf va Jvy'f yrfovqne).
:
:
:
: ~Angel
--
Firefly Fan Since September 20th, 2002 - Browncoat Since Birth
George W Harris
wrote:
:
:It looks to me like for some people, being bi is somehow worse than
:being "just gay". It should be noted that "100% straight/gay" people
:are pretty rare, with most people having some bisexual tendencies.
Really? It looks to me that the people who are
in denial about what the show says aren't the ones who
are saying she's bi.
:
:// JJ
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W Harris
:He is
:certainly the id, the beast within, personified. Note that he mentions
:virgins and babies - i.e., the innocent, as his natural victims. He
:is cheerfully amoral, with adult-sized drives and propensities for sex
:and food and violence (sans the governing ego of the adult). He seeks
:immediate gratification, is insatiable ("You cannot appease me! Do
:not try!"), and he is childlike in his wholly irrational and easily
:distractible approach to his surroundings. Allowed to run wild, he
:leaves a terrible troll trail of destruction, ceaselessly damaging
:property and injuring others as he seeks to fulfill his needs.
Hey! It's Parker!
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
alphakitten
> In article <449EB055...@netscape.net>,
> alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>
>>
>>>the problem is that showed willows first nineteen years as straight
>>>and lusting after xander and then happily lusting with oz
>>>and suddenly she throws that all way with -gay now-
>>>
>>>in an effort to be fair to gays whedon makes it look like its straights
>>>that are an affectation that can be tossed away at first chance
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>No, he really doesn't. He makes it look like you can have had straight
>>relationships, and then realize that you're gay. Which is the way it
>>works for a lot of people. As the daughter of a gay man, I know this
>>very well.
>
>
> ask if he had lusty feelings for girls and even a happy sexual relation with one
> and then the first time another man expressed interest with no overt sexuality
> he decided he was gay
Can't do that, he has no idea I know and it would kill him if he did
(terminally Catholic, unfortunately).
>
> more likely he had a long time of trying to make straight relations work
> and found himself drawn to other men instead
> before he realized what he really wanted
>
> problem is we dont see that in willow
> she went from satisfied ozlust to satisfied taralust
> with no struggle in between
> the only struggle was how to tell oz not how she felt to tara
How does a lack of struggle make her one or the other? As far as I can
see, it just makes her lucky.
~Angel
William George Ferguson
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
>> (or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
>
><Sigh> Okay, this is pathetic. I just tried to un-ROT13 *that*...
>
><mutter>ratzen-fratzen jiggen fraggenitz...
>
>> Ever met a joke that just really rubs you the wrong way?
>
>Yeah, he was my college history professor...
>
>> Suffice to say, I don't like those scenes. At all.
>
>Never woulda guessed.
>
>>
>> Then if I think of the episode beyond that, I'll mostly remember the
>> troll. Olaf is like one big TIRSBILA joke, swaggering through the town
>> with his hammer and Viking horns, wreaking havoc on puny receptacles
>> and threatening to "burn your crops and make merry sport with your
>> more attractive daughters!"
>
>And apparently having a blast with the role.
>
>> So suffice to say, Olaf is fun. A real ball of sunshine.
>
>What, are you contradicting our Ms Rosenberg there?
>
>>
>> On a character sense, the core of the episode involves Willow and Anya
>> bickering a lot, and maybe setting aside a few of their differences in
>> the process. Basically the beginning and the end (pre-troll) of this
>> worked well for me, the middle not so much. The increased focus on the
>> cattiness between these two actually started in the background several
>> episodes ago, about the time the Magic Box opened, and led to some of
>> the funnier moments of "Into The Woods." That continues here.
>
>Aly and Emma play off each other quite well. Pity most of Willow's
>cattiness was relegated to subtle remarks and innuendos up until
>recently; once she stopped holding back, the two of them really got rolling.
>
>> Bleah, says I. So yeah, the two of them will find a way to turn
>> anything into a silly argument, no matter how dangerous things get. It
>> got old.
>
>Yeah, but then, this is an example of one area where Willow can be a
>little hypocritical; she's *right* about Anya's lack of knowing how to
>deal with people - but *she* has some problems there, herself.
>
>> While we're on that, this is the debut of "gay now," (some people
>> suggested that would be a recurring thing in the "New Moon Rising"
>> thread). She's got a little Vamp!Willow in her, or the other way
>> around. I think we pretty adequately covered the fact that she's
>> actually bi (and thus shouldn't be excluded for that reason as a
>> threat to Xander's faithfulness), and also the fact that it makes
>> sense for Willow would think about it the way she does, regardless.
>
>Yup. It's not at all the contradiction some folks make it out to be.
>
>> This Is Really Stupid, Or At Least Sorta Dumb, But I Laughed Anyway
>> moment(s):
>
>Willow: I wish Buffy was here.
> Buffy: (Running into the room) I'm here!
>Willow: (Brightly) I wish I had a million dollars! (Slightly sheepish
>smile, off everyone's look.) Just checking...
Willow: Distract him from buffy! Piss him off!
Anya: I don't know how!
Willow: Anya, I have faith in you. There is no one you cannot piss off.
(AoQ will have been reminded of the three-way convo between Mal, the
Operative, and Inara, "Oh, spend a half hour with him.")
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Rowan Hawthorn
Jryy, gb or snve, Jvyybj qvqa'g ernyyl jnez hc gb ure zhpu hagvy fur tbg
gb frr Xraarql'f fbsgre fvqr. (Nygubhtu, gurer zhfg unir orra *fbzr*
nggenpgvba gb ortva jvgu, orpnhfr Xraarql fher tbg haqre Jvyy'f fxva...)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
alphakitten
Gurer vf rabezbhf fbpvny cerffher ntnvafg ovfrkhny crbcyr sebz fbzr
dhngref bs gur tnl pbzzhavgl. Va gur znvafgernz, juvpu qrzbaf nfvqr, vf
jurer Jvyybj yvirq, vg'f zhpu zber npprcgrq sbe n srznyr gb or ov guna n
yrfovna. V'z ov, V trg n serr evqr pbzcnerq gb tnl puvpxf. Ovfrkhny
znyrf unir vg gur jbefg bs nalbar, ohg gung'f n qvssrerag vffhr.
~Angel
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:41:46 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>EGK wrote:
>
>
>>>So you believe that's how Joss wrote Willow all along? Or did he switch it
>>>up afterwards to send a message?
>>
>
>>No, another path presented itself which he liked better. And what
>>message? There's no more message in her being gay than bi.
>>
>
>
> The message that being gay is normal. I didn't say it was a bad message.
> It's the preaching I felt they did to accentuate it. If you don't think
> they did that, why make a point of Willow being gay rather than bi?
Why is it so hard to believe that Joss liked the idea of her being a
lesbian? That he chose that path of his own volition?
~Angel
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:55:01 +1000, alphakitten
> <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> :>>I have. I don't recall Willow doing it, though.
> :>
> :>
> :> Gung jnf va gur pebffbire Natry rcvfbqr qhevat frnfba 6 jura fur zrg Serq.
> :>
> :
> :
> :Uhu? Fur oyhegf bhg "V'z frrvat fbzrbar". Fur qbrfa'g zragvba gurve frk.
>
> Naq fur gubhtug Serq jnf pbzvat ba gb ure
> (fgvyy n srj xvaxf va Jvy'f yrfovqne).
> :
You do know there's a better word for that? ;)
~Angel
EGK
wrote:
I'm sure Joss did like the idea. That's not what I asked you. When he
wrote the ice cream cone scene in When she was Bad was he writing Willow as
a lesbian who just hadn't come to terms yet? If not, why the change other
then to send a message?
When he and the writers wrote of her loving and lustful relationship with
Oz, were they writing a closet lesbian who was conflicted? If not, why the
change other than to send a message?
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-7CEFEB...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
> > > is funnier than the finished scene.
> >
> > Not to mention it's one of the series's other huge continuity errors.
> > Remember back in "Graduation Day" when Anya was splitting town and she
> > came to the school to convince Xander to go with her? There was this
> > little bit of dialog:
> >
> > ANYA
> > Xander.
> >
> > XANDER
> > What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
> >
> > ANYA
> > Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside.
>
> Maybe she'd hired a car and driver to take her to the airport.
Yeah, right.
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:29:04 -0400, Rowan Hawthorn
> <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>> threads.
>>>
>>>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season Five, Episode 11: "Triangle"
>>> (or "Flargen yarter kolslav hosen")
>> <Sigh> Okay, this is pathetic. I just tried to un-ROT13 *that*...
>>
>>> moment(s):
>> Willow: I wish Buffy was here.
>> Buffy: (Running into the room) I'm here!
>> Willow: (Brightly) I wish I had a million dollars! (Slightly sheepish
>> smile, off everyone's look.) Just checking...
>
> Willow: Distract him from buffy! Piss him off!
> Anya: I don't know how!
> Willow: Anya, I have faith in you. There is no one you cannot piss off.
>
And once again, our Ms Rosenberg hits the nail right on the... er...
thumb... :-)
Rowan Hawthorn
Certainly gives her twice as much chance of getting a date at any given
time...
Rowan Hawthorn
> On 25 Jun 2006 10:09:19 -0700, "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :He is
> :certainly the id, the beast within, personified. Note that he mentions
> :virgins and babies - i.e., the innocent, as his natural victims. He
> :is cheerfully amoral, with adult-sized drives and propensities for sex
> :and food and violence (sans the governing ego of the adult). He seeks
> :immediate gratification, is insatiable ("You cannot appease me! Do
> :not try!"), and he is childlike in his wholly irrational and easily
> :distractible approach to his surroundings. Allowed to run wild, he
> :leaves a terrible troll trail of destruction, ceaselessly damaging
> :property and injuring others as he seeks to fulfill his needs.
>
> Hey! It's Parker!
Can we rewind to "Beer Bad" and sneak Olaf's war-hammer to Cave Buffy?
Rincewind
> Ab, lbh qba'g whfg fhqqrayl ghea tnl. Crbcyr qb ubjrire, *pbzr gb ernyvmr*
> gung gurl'er tnl. Juvpu vf jung unccrarq gb Jvyybj.
>
V gbgnyyl nterr.
V jnf nyfb guvaxvat gung znlor gur jevgref jnagrq gb haqreyvar Jvyybj'f
pbaivapgvba gung fur vf abg tbvat onpx gb oblf gbja va beqre gb nqq jrvtug
gb ure pbasebagngvba jvgu Gnen va Gbhtu Ybir:
GNEN
Pna'g jr whfg tb gb gur snve?
JVYYBJ
V qba'g srry erny zhygvphygheny evtug abj. Jung vf vg nobhg zr gung
lbh qba'g gehfg?
GNEN
Vg'f abg gung. V jbeel, fbzrgvzrf. Lbh'er punatvat fb zhpu, fb
snfg. V qba'g xabj jurer lbh'er urnqvat.
JVYYBJ
Jurer V'z urnqvat?
GNEN
V'z fnlvat rirelguvat jebat.
JVYYBJ
Ab, V guvax lbh'er orvat cerggl pyrne. Guvf vfa'g nobhg gur
jvgpupensg. Vg'f nobhg gur bgure punatrf va zl yvsr.
GNEN
V gehfg lbh. V whfg. V qba'g xabj jurer V'z tbvat gb svg va. va
lbhe yvsr jura.
JVYYBJ
Jura V punatr onpx? Lrnu, guvf vf n pbyyrtr guvat, whfg n yvggyr
rkcrevzragngvba orsber V trg bire gur guevyy naq urnq onpx gb
oblf' gbja. (orng) Lbh guvax gung?
GNEN
Fubhyq V?
JVYYBJ
(natel)
V'z ernyyl fbeel gung V qvqa'g rfgnoyvfu zl yrfob fgerrg perq orsber
V tbg vagb guvf eryngvbafuvc. Lbh'er gur bayl jbzna V'ir rire
snyyra va ybir jvgu fb ubj ba rnegu pbhyq lbh rire gnxr zr
frevbhfyl?
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: It's okay. I'll deal
GILES: Holy freaking crap! How bloody hard is it to say two more words?!
WITH IT! I'll deal WITH IT!
alphakitten
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:23:26 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>EGK wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:41:46 +1000, alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>EGK wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>So you believe that's how Joss wrote Willow all along? Or did he switch it
>>>>>up afterwards to send a message?
>>>>
>>>>No, another path presented itself which he liked better. And what
>>>>message? There's no more message in her being gay than bi.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The message that being gay is normal. I didn't say it was a bad message.
>>>It's the preaching I felt they did to accentuate it. If you don't think
>>>they did that, why make a point of Willow being gay rather than bi?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Why is it so hard to believe that Joss liked the idea of her being a
>>lesbian? That he chose that path of his own volition?
>
>
> I'm sure Joss did like the idea. That's not what I asked you. When he
> wrote the ice cream cone scene in When she was Bad was he writing Willow as
> a lesbian who just hadn't come to terms yet?
No. And he wasn't writing her as someone who would turn out to be
bisexual, either. Hey, why have her fall in love with a girl at all?
Because it's the journey Joss wanted to take, and along the way, he
decided he'd like her to be a lesbian. Why is that so offensive to some
of you?
~Angel
alphakitten
> "alphakitten" <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Ab, lbh qba'g whfg fhqqrayl ghea tnl. Crbcyr qb ubjrire, *pbzr gb ernyvmr*
>>gung gurl'er tnl. Juvpu vf jung unccrarq gb Jvyybj.
>>
>
>
> V gbgnyyl nterr.
>
Thank god, I was feeling so lonely!
~Angel
One Bit Shy
news:35et929gm1r20k1v8...@4ax.com...
> EGK <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>On 24 Jun 2006 20:03:39 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So...
>>>
>>>One-sentence summary: Decent comedy episode brought down by a few too
>>>many wrong notes.
>>
>>I don't really know what you like in particular about the series but one
>>suggestion. If you like the more humorous episodes, re-watch this one and
>>learn to enjoy it. :)
>
>
> He doesn't (or so it seems to me). I do. Liked this one a lot. Could
> never get too much of chipped Spike as Bizarro comic relief.
>
> I say a strong Good (+), just shy of Excellent (-).
See? We really do agree on a lot of stuff. ;-)
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> JJ Karhu wrote:
> > It looks to me like for some people, being bi is somehow worse than
> > being "just gay".
>
> It looks to me like for some people, being gay is somehow worse than
> being bi.
It looks to me like some people are trying to impose motivations on the
discussion that have nothing to do with the actual topic of debate.
-AOQ
EGK
wrote:
This is when these discussions stop being fun. When you assume it's
offensive to people. Usually following that come the howls of homophobia
and prejudice.
The point of this is whether what we actually saw portrayed on-screen is a
gay or bisexual character not whether we give two shits what a fictional
character is supposed to be. In my case anyway it also concerns whether the
portrayal in the later seasons undermines the character development and
emotional content of earlier episodes.
I think bisexuality is much more a conscious choice. Some people are
attracted to the person and their sex is immaterial. I think that best fits
with how Willow was portrayed in seasons 1-3 and part of 4. Homosexuality
is how people are born and is perfectly natural for them. The struggle that
others alluded to you and which you just dismissed as her being "lucky"
isn't like changing a pair of socks. You'd never know that from this show
though.
The bottom line for me is her unrequitted love for Xander and love and lust
for Oz seemed every bit as genuine as it did with Tara and that best fits
someone who is bisexual. We never got an inkling that something was missing
in her relationship with Oz even if she couldn't put her finger on what that
something was. It's not like she was ever shown getting a little girl on
girl action and wow, her eyes were open, she never knew what she was
missing. A hell of a lot of people would have paid to see that though. :)
Arbitrar Of Quality
EGK wrote:
> Some people are
> attracted to the person and their sex is immaterial. I think that best fits
> with how Willow was portrayed in seasons 1-3 and part of 4. Homosexuality
> is how people are born and is perfectly natural for them. The struggle that
> others alluded to you and which you just dismissed as her being "lucky"
> isn't like changing a pair of socks. You'd never know that from this show
> though.
>
> The bottom line for me is her unrequitted love for Xander and love and lust
> for Oz seemed every bit as genuine as it did with Tara and that best fits
> someone who is bisexual. We never got an inkling that something was missing
> in her relationship with Oz even if she couldn't put her finger on what that
> something was. It's not like she was ever shown getting a little girl on
> girl action and wow, her eyes were open, she never knew what she was
> missing. A hell of a lot of people would have paid to see that though. :)
Generally agreed. We're basing our perceptions on what the show itself
portrayed pre-Tara.
There is a little period of eye-opening and redefinition in "New Moon
Rising." This doesn't have to be because her sexual orientation itself
is changing, but because she has to change the way she thinks about
herself. Societal norms and all that.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-63881A...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <btr1702-7CEFEB...@news.giganews.com>,
> > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <1151204619.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think the premise of Anya not really knowing how to drive
> > > > is funnier than the finished scene.
> > >
> > > Not to mention it's one of the series's other huge continuity errors.
> > > Remember back in "Graduation Day" when Anya was splitting town and she
> > > came to the school to convince Xander to go with her? There was this
> > > little bit of dialog:
> > >
> > > ANYA
> > > Xander.
> > >
> > > XANDER
> > > What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
> > >
> > > ANYA
> > > Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside.
> >
> > Maybe she'd hired a car and driver to take her to the airport.
>
> Yeah, right.
or she decided to bring her pseudoparents along so they didnt get killed
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> bisexual, either. Hey, why have her fall in love with a girl at all?
> Because it's the journey Joss wanted to take, and along the way, he
> decided he'd like her to be a lesbian. Why is that so offensive to some
> of you?
why is bisexuality so offensive to you?
ps youre projecting