AOQ Review 7-21: "End Of Days"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
(or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
Director: Marita Grabiak
A last collaborative effort for another two writers... *sniffle*. I
notice that Marti's gotten almost no writing credit this season - I
guess Executive Producing is a big job.
That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
going to say about it, but, shiny. Our slayer showing up to save the
MC50000 (who I must say aren't handling themselves too badly at all)
is a little bit like an old cliché - the false hero incompetently
leads everyone into disaster until the real hero emerges to save the
day. It doesn't bother me too much since the show doesn't seem to
be using it to demean or blame Faith. The lesson, if one must look for
morals, comes from Buffy as she talks about how this could have
happened to either of them, that "people die. You lead them into
battle, they're gonna die. It doesn't matter how ready you are or how
smart you are." Both Slayers have made mistakes that cost young
people their lives and organs, and it's not a reason to stop
fighting. It seems like Buffy's found an answer that satisfies her
as far as accepting the still-existing things that were bothering her
last week. Other than that, I enjoy the B/F camaraderie which is
tempered by a few moments that remind us that they're not friends by
choice - Buffy's little glares here and there, and "also, you
went evil and were killing people." Good thing they're hot chicks
with superpowers.
Okay, so one thing of note that comes up is that Buffy strides right
back in, people accept that she can get the job done, and she's back
to confiding in her friends while being a little aloof, the One.
It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
two episodes didn't happen. I'm not quite sure how to feel about
that. On the one hand, do we really need a round of remonstrations?
Everyone knows what everyone did and why, everyone was trying to do the
right thing, there's a war to be fought. On the other hand, well, it
just seems weird to push it aside like that. There's a poignant
little moment in which Xander's wondering why he can't be by her
side to the end, the way he's always wanted to be. One wonders if
she'll say say that he's forfeited that right, but instead she
gives him a chance to still have her absolute trust. That's nice.
Continuing, though, to ask the question of what purpose the short-lived
exile served... for once I'm going to (sort of) side with the
"Buffy And Spike Show" crowd. I believe that the writers'
primary, and possibly sole reason for having Buffy get voted off the
island was to do the B/S scene in "Touched." Now that that's
done, no reason to have that plot anymore. But I am going to also take
the stance that this isn't an entirely bad thing. "Touched" is
such an important moment of catharsis that maybe it's worth setting
up. It is true that feeling the writers' hands pulling the strings
is never great, and it retroactively diminishes my opinion of "Empty
Places" some (although not too much since it still does follow from
things that've been building all season).
Speaking of whom, Spike isn't in this episode very much. But he
drops by to have an initially avoidant conversation with our hero. And
I did wonder for a second if they were really going to throw away that
connection they made the night before behind their insecurity and
self-doubt. Fortunately, Buffy runs after him with the entertaining
line "you're a dope. And a bonehead. And you're shirty," and
it's a relief to see them talking out loud, confirming each other's
feelings about what they've shared. Regarding Spike not quite being
able to believe that he could be so appreciated: to borrow Holden's
psychobabble, it's like his time knowing Buffy (including, but not
limited to, the soul) has superimposed an inferiority complex on top of
his superiority complex. Anyway, they still awkwardly get away from
each other as quickly as possible, but at least some of what needed to
be said has come out.
It's interesting that Willow still hasn't had her confidence built
back up yet, despite several attempts to get over certain hurdles.
"If I tried something big, I'd change." How she'll handle
herself when everything's at stake is an important question. Here
things are a little muddied by the way the show hasn't really drawn a
clear distinction between what counts as "strong" and "not
strong" magic. One might suspect that the writers have been using it
as a way to make Willow still be a witch but confine her to a S4 level
of power so as not to make the good guys too invincible. But anyway,
this issue has not been resolved yet, so we get a reminder of it.
I'd argue that Willow's character development has been largely
arrested since around CWDP because of it; I've enjoyed most of S7
overall, but it needs more Willow. So, finale, do something cool.
A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn scenes.
The laughter at the Cyclops thing is a little overdone, but otherwise I
enjoy Xander making it a matter of principle to demand more creativity
in humor. It's also disarming, so that his color form attack on Dawn
in the middle of a sentence becomes a real surprise, coming out of
nowhere. We did figure out that he was working on Buffy's behalf,
but tis' still a surprising moment. Little Sister is kind enough to
return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
"Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
Because it's her right to get put in danger and scream during the
climax if she wants to, dammit. Not really connected with the central
story, at least for now, but a good character showpiece for the
normals.
Of the extended character moments (which are principally among the main
cast rather than the extras, thankfully) another one has even less to
do with the main plot. That's the fun moment in the hospital in
which Anya shares her state of mind. Andrew might appreciate being
part of this scene because he'd know that the _Star Trek_ shows
always had someone in the Spock role, the sorta-outsider who provides
commentary on the human experience. That's what this character's
role is at times. The difference is that she's not telling the
audience too much we don't know, so much as sharing how it feels to
discover the joys of life for someone who never really understood
before. The "amazingly screwed up" speech also ties into the
discussions from earlier this year about scattered good against
Ultimate Evil in the Buffyverse. So anyway, Anya confides in Andrew,
among the most frivolous of humans... I guess it can't be Xander,
since her stuff earlier in the year pretty much demands that she have a
few big scenes with people who aren't him. Going from that into a
wheelchair fight is one of the strangest and most hilarious transitions
in the whole BTVS canon. (Oh yeah, while I'm talking about Andrew,
like presumably many viewers, I have fond memories of those Capri-Sun
drinks, even if they intentionally made it hard to get the straw in.)
I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
blah blah blah. At least it sets the stage for our captain to make a
(literally) killer appearance, with "I'm sorry. I didn't catch that
last part on account of her neck snapping and all." Heh. Although
he's merged with the evil power, and is suggested to be its ultimate
vessel, Buffy kills him here after a good evenly-matched fight scene.
And in its earlier exchanges, this episode first reestablishes the
power dynamics of who's in charge in the villain relationship (oh,
can I mention that I always like what Gellar does with the First?). It
seems about the right time to kill off Caleb (thought actually I
might've gone one episode earlier), since he's just the vessel -
let the First work its less diluted mojo for the last show.
One of the problems with TV credits is that the guest stars usually get
listed at the beginning even if they don't show up until the last
act. Thus, I, and I'd assume pretty much everyone, knew that at some
point during the fight with Caleb, Angel would stride in and save the
day, probably just enough to turn the tide for our hero to handle the
actual killing. Good to see him being part of the conclusion, although
here I'm not sure quite why the show feels it necessary to do what
appears to be a "what we see is distorted by characters'
perception" thing. It's a very overdone moment in a way that I
certainly hope was intentional, with the sweeping crescendo of the
soundtrack, and Angel charging into the battle in slow motion, hair
flapping in the nonexistent wind, like some romantic Dark Avenger.
Could we save that for scenes that aren't so important, and in the
second to last episode of the entire series?
On the other hand, the cut from that to Spike, while a little obvious,
is a rather inspired twist. The First would seem to have a contingency
plan of some kind. Like presumably many viewers prone to taking things
at face value, I'd assumed that we could forget about its plans for
Spoik once he had his triggerectomy. This has the potential for
dumbness or greatness, more so than anything else set up here.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- The Holy Hand Grenade reference
- "You look... timely"
So...
One-sentence summary: Resolves things and sets more stages at the same
time - now let's see if we can finish strong.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good
12) "Potential" - Good
13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
14) "First Date" - Decent
15) "Get It Done" - Decent
16) "Storyteller" - Good
17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
18) "Dirty Girls" - Good
19) "Empty Places" - Good
20) "Touched" - Excellent
21) "End Of Days" - Good]
burt...@hotmail.com
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
> Director: Marita Grabiak
This episode doesn't inspire the kind of loathing in me that "Touched"
did, but it does have what's quite possibly the biggest plot-related
WTF? moment in the whole series. Okay, the Scythe is an incredibly
powerful weapon in the hands of a Slayer - so why the hell did the
First have its minions go to all the trouble of excavating it instead
of leaving it buried under several feet of rock where Buffy would have
had no way of reaching it (or knowing it even existed)? Seriously, can
you think of a stupider move it could have made? Talk about an idiot
plot.
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
> Director: Marita Grabiak
>
> A last collaborative effort for another two writers... *sniffle*. I
> notice that Marti's gotten almost no writing credit this season - I
> guess Executive Producing is a big job.
>
> That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> going to say about it, but, shiny. Our slayer showing up to save the
> MC50000 (who I must say aren't handling themselves too badly at all)
Even most of the Kennedy haters admitted that she did good in this
scene, gathering the Minis and the wounded, and keeping everyone moving
and working together. Her actions kept the death toll way down.
Without her, a lot more girls would have died before Buffy arrived to
save the day.
Some people note that the Ubervamps seem to have gotten a lot easier to
kill. Part of it may be knowing that they *can* be staked, but I
suspect that the First was giving her first Ubie power-ups similar to
the ones that Caleb is getting.
>
> Okay, so one thing of note that comes up is that Buffy strides right
> back in, people accept that she can get the job done, and she's back
> to confiding in her friends while being a little aloof, the One.
> It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
> two episodes didn't happen. I'm not quite sure how to feel about
> that. On the one hand, do we really need a round of remonstrations?
> Everyone knows what everyone did and why, everyone was trying to do the
> right thing, there's a war to be fought. On the other hand, well, it
> just seems weird to push it aside like that.
But they don't totally ignore it, either. You've got Amanda thinking
that they got punished for kicking Buffy out, and Caridad asking
uncertainly if Buffy's back to stay.
> A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn scenes.
> The laughter at the Cyclops thing is a little overdone, but otherwise I
> enjoy Xander making it a matter of principle to demand more creativity
> in humor.
Plus we have one of the great mysteries of the series adressed here:
What happened to Miss Kitty Fantastico? But we don't really get an
answer. It does seem to involve a loaded crossbow that Dawn left lying
around willy-nilly.
> It's also disarming, so that his color form attack on Dawn
> in the middle of a sentence becomes a real surprise, coming out of
> nowhere. We did figure out that he was working on Buffy's behalf,
> but tis' still a surprising moment. Little Sister is kind enough to
> return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
> for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
> "Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
Okay, crossover idea, with Dawn comparing notes with Veronica Mars on
the proper use of a stun-gun.
One weird thing about that scene: Dawn is still on the passenger side
of the car when she starts to turn it around. Why not move Xander out
of the driver's seat first? Or does she try to drive all the way back
to Sunnydale that way?
> Because it's her right to get put in danger and scream during the
> climax if she wants to, dammit. Not really connected with the central
> story, at least for now, but a good character showpiece for the
> normals.
(V'yy unir lbh xabj gung Qnja qbrfa'g fpernz bapr qhevat gur svany
onggyr.)
> One of the problems with TV credits is that the guest stars usually get
> listed at the beginning even if they don't show up until the last
> act. Thus, I, and I'd assume pretty much everyone, knew that at some
> point during the fight with Caleb, Angel would stride in and save the
> day, probably just enough to turn the tide for our hero to handle the
> actual killing. Good to see him being part of the conclusion, although
> here I'm not sure quite why the show feels it necessary to do what
> appears to be a "what we see is distorted by characters'
> perception" thing.
A nice "compare and contrast" with Captain Tightpants' fight with
Niska's torturer in "War Games." Here they do the whole "this is
something she's got to do for herself" thing that they riffed in that
fight.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Apteryx
news:1161150881.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
>two episodes didn't happen.
If only it was that easy.
>but tis' still a surprising moment. Little Sister is kind enough to
>return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
>for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
>"Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
There probably should have been a warning in the credits not to try
tasering the driver of the car you are in IRL. But notice how quickly
she got the car turned around afterward. She surely can't have moved him
out of the driver's seat in that time. Is she sitting on his lap?
Inquiring minds want to know.
>few big scenes with people who aren't him. Going from that into a
>wheelchair fight is one of the strangest and most hilarious transitions
>in the whole BTVS canon.
A good moment (as is Anya's bedside manner demonstrated earlier with the
injured potential)
>I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
>woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
>blah blah blah.
Just because its talky? Not, say because it shows a tomb Buffy never
noticed before in 7 years of patrolling Sunnydale cemeteries, and in it
is a woman who has waited, what, 10,000 years, just to meet her? Let no
one complain that they've got a boring job. My heart goes out to those
other Guardians who started waiting with her, but never made it to see
Buffy.
>perception" thing. It's a very overdone moment in a way that I
>certainly hope was intentional, with the sweeping crescendo of the
>soundtrack, and Angel charging into the battle in slow motion, hair
>flapping in the nonexistent wind, like some romantic Dark Avenger.
My guess is that it was the original intention for Angel's return (which
would be from Whedon or Noxon) was for it to be done in all seriousness,
which at this point seems to be dramatically required. But either the
writer, actor or director realised that they just couldn't play it that
way, so played up the cheese that was already inherent in any such late
return
>AOQ rating: Good
There is a lot to like about this episode, especially the way it
disposes of the unpleasantness of the last two episodes as if they never
happened. There is a lot of clunkiness too, as in the special weapon
conveniently reavealed in the penultimate episode, and revealed moreover
solely by the efforts of the villains. But up till the moment just
before Buffy finds that secret mausoleum, hidden in plain sight in the
cemetery, this has the same sort of mix of Good and Bad stuff that I
would normally rate a high Decent, like Beer Bad or LMPTM. But then
comes the Guardian, followed shortly after by Angel. To me, these are
the two worst scenes in the Buffyverse (unlesss there is some horror
from the horrible season of AtS that I have managed to blot from my
mind), and they come, in quick succession, in the same episode. They are
enough to drop the episode in my estimation to a clear Bad, and in
serious contention for the position of worst BtVS episode. The Good
stuff (getting Buffy back on track, Anya and Andrew, maybe Xander and
Dawn) do manage to just save it from that. There is also the thought
(not tested yet), that if I were just drunk enough when watching it, I
would appreciate the unintentional humour in those two awful scenes (to
the extent that the humour in the Angel scene is unintentional) and come
to like it better - unintentional humour is better than no humour at
all. Still, for the moment it's my 143rd favourite BtVS episode, 21st
best in season 7
--
Apteryx
drifter
You actually remember Caridad's name? Wow.
>> A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn
>> scenes. The laughter at the Cyclops thing is a little overdone, but
>> otherwise I enjoy Xander making it a matter of principle to demand
>> more creativity in humor.
>
> Plus we have one of the great mysteries of the series adressed here:
> What happened to Miss Kitty Fantastico? But we don't really get an
> answer. It does seem to involve a loaded crossbow that Dawn left
> lying around willy-nilly.
I always wondered if this "really" happened or if it was one of the
restructured memories inserted into reality by the Monks. Did we
ever see MKF after "Dracula?"
>> It's also disarming, so that his color form attack on Dawn
>> in the middle of a sentence becomes a real surprise, coming out of
>> nowhere. We did figure out that he was working on Buffy's behalf,
>> but tis' still a surprising moment. Little Sister is kind enough to
>> return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
>> for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
>> "Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
>
> Okay, crossover idea, with Dawn comparing notes with Veronica Mars on
> the proper use of a stun-gun.
>
> One weird thing about that scene: Dawn is still on the passenger side
> of the car when she starts to turn it around. Why not move Xander out
> of the driver's seat first? Or does she try to drive all the way back
> to Sunnydale that way?
Fan wank: she had a part time job as a mail carrier. (In the US, mail
carriers often drive from the "other" side of the car - at least in my
area.)
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Elisi
OK, imagine this: You're The Biggest Big Bad Ever with huge powers, a
giant army and the confidence to match. You find The Good Guys' 'Very
Powerful Secret Weapon', that's so secret they don't even know about
it. Do you:
a) Leave it where it is. Seriously, someone could get hurt - I mean
look how sharp it is! Bettter play it safe.
b) Try to free it so you can use it against the Good Guys. 'Cause just
how awesome would it be to kill the Slayer with her own secret weapon?
And if something goes wrong? Well no weapon forged can harm you because
hey - uncorporeal!
It's a win/not lose scenario. And definitely not stupid - it's
opportunistic. Which could be The First's middle name!
Don Sample
wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> > In article <1161150881.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >> threads.
> >>
> >>
> >> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> >> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> > Plus we have one of the great mysteries of the series adressed here:
> > What happened to Miss Kitty Fantastico? But we don't really get an
> > answer. It does seem to involve a loaded crossbow that Dawn left
> > lying around willy-nilly.
>
> I always wondered if this "really" happened or if it was one of the
> restructured memories inserted into reality by the Monks. Did we
> ever see MKF after "Dracula?"
Yes. Miss Kitty Fantastico makes an appearance in episode 5.06,
"Family."
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> going to say about it, but, shiny. Our slayer showing up to save the
well sometimes scythe matters
> MC50000 (who I must say aren't handling themselves too badly at all)
> is a little bit like an old cliché - the false hero incompetently
> leads everyone into disaster until the real hero emerges to save the
> day. It doesn't bother me too much since the show doesn't seem to
> be using it to demean or blame Faith. The lesson, if one must look for
unfortunately faith made the same mistake buffy did
leading them to a confined space with no secured line of retreat
given buffy did the same thing shes really not in a good position to criticize
note that when she is asked if she is back she is noncommittal
being a general and ordering them off to die is not working
buffy seems to be looking for a new approach
> Okay, so one thing of note that comes up is that Buffy strides right
> back in, people accept that she can get the job done, and she's back
> to confiding in her friends while being a little aloof, the One.
> It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
> two episodes didn't happen. I'm not quite sure how to feel about
buffys character has become not to dwell on past grievances
but to deal with the issue at the moment
> "Buffy And Spike Show" crowd. I believe that the writers'
> primary, and possibly sole reason for having Buffy get voted off the
> island was to do the B/S scene in "Touched." Now that that's
there has been a change in how buffy is dealing with the others
she not (at least not yet) ordering them what to do like her troops
> strong" magic. One might suspect that the writers have been using it
> as a way to make Willow still be a witch but confine her to a S4 level
> of power so as not to make the good guys too invincible. But anyway,
willow has never been much of a fighter
her role has been more planning and intelligence and support
> Of the extended character moments (which are principally among the main
> cast rather than the extras, thankfully) another one has even less to
> do with the main plot. That's the fun moment in the hospital in
> which Anya shares her state of mind. Andrew might appreciate being
another step in the anya-andrew romance
it will be nice if the series ends with at least one happy couple
> I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
> woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
> blah blah blah. At least it sets the stage for our captain to make a
it completes the mythology explaining the events that created the slayer
it is also an aborted matriarchy
suggesting how slayers might have been managed if not for the watchers
> at face value, I'd assumed that we could forget about its plans for
> Spoik once he had his triggerectomy. This has the potential for
> dumbness or greatness, more so than anything else set up here.
spike has a soul
having a soul doesnt make you good
it lets you choose to be good
or evil
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
> Director: Marita Grabiak
>
> A last collaborative effort for another two writers... *sniffle*. I
> notice that Marti's gotten almost no writing credit this season - I
> guess Executive Producing is a big job.
>
> That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> going to say about it, but, shiny. Our slayer showing up to save the
> MC50000 (who I must say aren't handling themselves too badly at all)
And I'm sure you'll gloss over whose actions prevented a rout (and
indeed you did).
> Okay, so one thing of note that comes up is that Buffy strides right
> back in, people accept that she can get the job done, and she's back
> to confiding in her friends while being a little aloof, the One.
She doesn't want to be The One...
> It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
> two episodes didn't happen. I'm not quite sure how to feel about
> that. On the one hand, do we really need a round of remonstrations?
> Everyone knows what everyone did and why, everyone was trying to do the
> right thing, there's a war to be fought. On the other hand, well, it
> just seems weird to push it aside like that. There's a poignant
> little moment in which Xander's wondering why he can't be by her
> side to the end, the way he's always wanted to be. One wonders if
> she'll say say that he's forfeited that right,
...why would she? He hasn't. It's almost as if she has a new perspective
and those who know her see this and accept it.
> but instead she
> gives him a chance to still have her absolute trust. That's nice.
>
> Continuing, though, to ask the question of what purpose the short-lived
> exile served... for once I'm going to (sort of) side with the
> "Buffy And Spike Show" crowd. I believe that the writers'
> primary, and possibly sole reason for having Buffy get voted off the
> island was to do the B/S scene in "Touched." Now that that's
> done, no reason to have that plot anymore.
Well, apart from the clumsy rom-fic playing as they head off to be
heroes...
> Speaking of whom, Spike isn't in this episode very much. But he
> drops by to have an initially avoidant conversation with our hero.
...here. That really shows how very very good the scene in Touched was.
> One of the problems with TV credits is that the guest stars usually get
> listed at the beginning even if they don't show up until the last
> act. Thus, I, and I'd assume pretty much everyone, knew that at some
> point during the fight with Caleb, Angel would stride in and save the
> day, probably just enough to turn the tide for our hero to handle the
> actual killing. Good to see him being part of the conclusion,
So you didn't get a "Who is that fat bastard playing Angel" moment?
--
What does not kill me makes me stronger. Unless it leaves me as a quadriplegic.
Ken from Chicago
<burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161152574....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
-- Ken from Chicago
Espen Schjønberg
>
> I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
Gur cyna vf gb znxr gur tbbq fvqr hayrnfu/vagebqhpr zber qrzba cbjref va
guvf jbeyq, nf gung jvyy bcra gur tngrf sbe rira zber qrzbaf va gur arkg
fgrc.
Gur ehyrf bs ratntrzrag ner chg hc fb obgu fvqrf zhfg jnag guvf. Gur onq
fvqr jnagf vg nyernql, jung vf zvffvat vf gur tbbq fvqr gb qb vg.
Jr jvyy svaq bhg vs gur Fynlre naq ure sevraqf ner jvyyvat gb qb gur onq
thlf ovqqvat.
--
Espen
Elisi
> I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
Seems pretty straightforward to me...
Gur Svefg: V jvyy bireeha guvf Rnegu. Naq jura zl nezl bhgahzoref gur
uhznaf ba guvf Rnegu, gur fpnyrf jvyy gvc naq V jvyy or znqr syrfu.
Zrffvat nebhaq jvgu Ohssl & sevraqf jnf whfg vgf irefvba bs univat sha.
Yvxr Natryhf.
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Naq vs lbh'er tbvat gb gnxr bire gur Rnegu, lbh unir gb fgneg fbzrjurer.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
There's no such thing as random...
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
> Director: Marita Grabiak
>
> A last collaborative effort for another two writers... *sniffle*.
The end is near...
> That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> going to say about it, but, shiny.
I love the sound it makes as Buffy wields it. Veeeeery nice!
> Our slayer showing up to save the
> MC50000 (who I must say aren't handling themselves too badly at all)
Which has a lot do with Kennedy. She might be annoying and
argumentative, but here she instinctively takes charge: gets the
Potentials rounded up, insists that they find Faith and then tries to
get them all out. When they discover that there are Ubervamp(s) after
them, it is Kennedy who gets them to attempt to defend themselves, and
Kennedy who faces off against the first Ubervamp. She almost gets
killed (what with not having Slayer powers), but she shows bravery and
sound leadership. Later she seems to be very worried about Faith, and a
lot more subdued around Buffy - her little stint of being in charge has
made an impression I think, the same way it did on Faith. (Maybe it's
just when she's with Willow that you dislike her?)
> The lesson, if one must look for
> morals, comes from Buffy as she talks about how this could have
> happened to either of them, that "people die. You lead them into
> battle, they're gonna die. It doesn't matter how ready you are or how
> smart you are." Both Slayers have made mistakes that cost young
> people their lives and organs, and it's not a reason to stop
> fighting. It seems like Buffy's found an answer that satisfies her
> as far as accepting the still-existing things that were bothering her
> last week. Other than that, I enjoy the B/F camaraderie which is
> tempered by a few moments that remind us that they're not friends by
> choice - Buffy's little glares here and there, and "also, you
> went evil and were killing people." Good thing they're hot chicks
> with superpowers.
I *love* their scene - it's fabulously well written and played just
right! Buffy - who has been feeling lonely and alone all season -
suddenly gets someone who understands her completely, someone who
'gets' all the Slayer issues. Faith to a certain extent has *become*
Buffy. Also they finally talk about the past and try to deal with their
issues.
And just another thought about Spike's role in 'Touched': Buffy has
ever since she was called had a conflict going on inside - she was both
Buffy The Slayer and Buffy The Girl, and she could never work out which
she was. Spike shows her that _she is just Buffy_. Both sides come
together for him and make a whole - and it's the whole that he loves.
That I think is very important to her, and soemthing that informs her
now.
> Okay, so one thing of note that comes up is that Buffy strides right
> back in, people accept that she can get the job done, and she's back
> to confiding in her friends while being a little aloof, the One.
> It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
> two episodes didn't happen. I'm not quite sure how to feel about
> that. On the one hand, do we really need a round of remonstrations?
> Everyone knows what everyone did and why, everyone was trying to do the
> right thing, there's a war to be fought. On the other hand, well, it
> just seems weird to push it aside like that.
I don't see it like that. It's more a case of putting everything on
halt, because the Apocalypse is starting. Also this ep is all about
mending broken fences - 7 years worth of friendship cannot be thrown
out easily. It's about looking back - taking a moment to see how far
these people have come since we first met them, how they've grown and
changed, and yet remained the same. Seven years is a long time - were
they worth it?
> There's a poignant
> little moment in which Xander's wondering why he can't be by her
> side to the end, the way he's always wanted to be. One wonders if
> she'll say say that he's forfeited that right, but instead she
> gives him a chance to still have her absolute trust. That's nice.
*sniff*
> Continuing, though, to ask the question of what purpose the short-lived
> exile served... for once I'm going to (sort of) side with the
> "Buffy And Spike Show" crowd. I believe that the writers'
> primary, and possibly sole reason for having Buffy get voted off the
> island was to do the B/S scene in "Touched." Now that that's
> done, no reason to have that plot anymore. But I am going to also take
> the stance that this isn't an entirely bad thing. "Touched" is
> such an important moment of catharsis that maybe it's worth setting
> up. It is true that feeling the writers' hands pulling the strings
> is never great, and it retroactively diminishes my opinion of "Empty
> Places" some (although not too much since it still does follow from
> things that've been building all season).
Me thinks everyone learned some humility...
> Speaking of whom, Spike isn't in this episode very much. But he
> drops by to have an initially avoidant conversation with our hero. And
> I did wonder for a second if they were really going to throw away that
> connection they made the night before behind their insecurity and
> self-doubt. Fortunately, Buffy runs after him with the entertaining
> line "you're a dope. And a bonehead. And you're shirty," and
> it's a relief to see them talking out loud, confirming each other's
> feelings about what they've shared. Regarding Spike not quite being
> able to believe that he could be so appreciated: to borrow Holden's
> psychobabble, it's like his time knowing Buffy (including, but not
> limited to, the soul) has superimposed an inferiority complex on top of
> his superiority complex. Anyway, they still awkwardly get away from
> each other as quickly as possible, but at least some of what needed to
> be said has come out.
Spike: Were you there with me?
Buffy: I was.
Spike: What does that mean?
Their conversation reminds me of something else. From 'Storyteller':
Xander: Yes. I still love you. I always will. I just don't know if that
means anything for us anymore.
Anya: Well, I love you too. I don't know if that means anything either.
Things aren't simple. Love can't solve everything. Was their special
night a new beginning or maybe the end?
> It's interesting that Willow still hasn't had her confidence built
> back up yet, despite several attempts to get over certain hurdles.
> "If I tried something big, I'd change."
The biggest thing she's done so far is open the portal. She went
completely black-eyed, and sucked the life out of Kennedy and Anya. Not
a good omen...
> I'd argue that Willow's character development has been largely
> arrested since around CWDP because of it; I've enjoyed most of S7
> overall, but it needs more Willow. So, finale, do something cool.
*puts tape over mouth*
> A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn scenes.
> Little Sister is kind enough to
> return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
> for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
> "Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
> Because it's her right to get put in danger and scream during the
> climax if she wants to, dammit.
It could also be seen as 'Buffy won't choose you'...
> Of the extended character moments (which are principally among the main
> cast rather than the extras, thankfully) another one has even less to
> do with the main plot. That's what this character's
> role is at times. The difference is that she's not telling the
> audience too much we don't know, so much as sharing how it feels to
> discover the joys of life for someone who never really understood
> before.
These two together are comedy gold. They play off each other so
beautifully that even if the rest of the ep. sucked I'd still love it
just for these two. The way Andrew suddenly makes decisions and acts on
them (breaking his lifelong habit of always following), and also makes
Anya feel useful and needed is wonderful. As is her line:
Anya: OK. I'll get Kennedy to watch the girls. She's tough. Imminent
death won't bother her.
Which really sums up Kennedy for me... :)
But about Anya's speech - it is definitely a big highlight for me, but
what struck me recently is that she's also had speeches for previous
apocalypses (S3 and S5), and through them we can directly trace her
development:
Graduation Day:
Anya: When I think that something could happen to you, it feels bad
inside, like I might vomit.
Xander: Welcome to the world of romance.
Anya: It's horrible. No wonder I used to get so much work.
Xander: Well, I'm sorry I give you barfy feelings.
Anya: Come with me.
Xander: I can't.
Anya: Why not?
Xander: I got friends on the line.
Anya: So?
Xander: That humanity thing's still a work in progress, isn't it?
Anya: Are you really going to be that much help to them? I mean, you'll
probably just get in the way.
Xander: Your stock is plummeting here, sweetheart.
Anya: Fine! You know what? I hope you die.
Anya: Aren't we gonna kiss?
The Gift:
Anya: No, you see, usually when there's an apocalypse, I skedaddle. But
now I love you so much that instead I have inappropriately timed sex
and try to think of ways to fight a god ... and worry terribly that
something might happen to you. And also worry that something'll happen
to me. And then I have guilt that I'm not more worried about everyone
else, but I just don't have enough! I'm just on total overload, and I
honestly don't think that I could be more nervous than I am right now.
End Of Days:
Anya: Well...there was this other apocalypse... this one time, and...
well, I took off. But this time, I don't...I don't know.
Andrew: Well...what's different?
Anya: Well...I guess I was...kinda new to bein' around humans before.
But now I've... seen a lot more, gotten to know people... seen what
they're capable of, and... I guess I just realized...how amazingly
screwed-up they all are. I mean really, really screwed-up in a
monumental fashion.
Andrew: Oh.
Anya: And they have no purpose that unites them, so they just drift
around, blundering through life until they die...which they...they know
is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to
them. They're incapable of thinking about what they want beyond the
moment. They kill each other, which is clearly insane. And yet, here's
the thing. When it's something that really matters, they fight. I mean,
they're lame morons for fighting, but they do. They never... never
quit. So I guess I will keep fighting, too.
>From purely selfinvolved, to staying for her love of Xander, to staying
for her love of humankind... I love that journey! And Andrew's line:
"I don't think I'll be OK. I'm cool with it. I think I'd like
to...finish out as one of those... lame humans tryin' to do what's
right."
*sniff*
> Going from that into a
> wheelchair fight is one of the strangest and most hilarious transitions
> in the whole BTVS canon.
Amen.
> I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
> woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
> blah blah blah.
Essentially her role here is the same as Whistler's in 'Becoming' (who
also came out of nowhere, just like Kendra happened to have the sword
for stopping Acathla). There are a lot of parallels bewteen S2 and S7
for those that look.
> At least it sets the stage for our captain to make a
> (literally) killer appearance, with "I'm sorry. I didn't catch that
> last part on account of her neck snapping and all." Heh. Although
> he's merged with the evil power, and is suggested to be its ultimate
> vessel, Buffy kills him here after a good evenly-matched fight scene.
It's *all* about self belief!
> Good to see him being part of the conclusion, although
> here I'm not sure quite why the show feels it necessary to do what
> appears to be a "what we see is distorted by characters'
> perception" thing. It's a very overdone moment in a way that I
> certainly hope was intentional, with the sweeping crescendo of the
> soundtrack, and Angel charging into the battle in slow motion, hair
> flapping in the nonexistent wind, like some romantic Dark Avenger.
> Could we save that for scenes that aren't so important, and in the
> second to last episode of the entire series?
Hehehehehe. So you're in the 'Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up,
and he's bloody stupid' camp?
> On the other hand, the cut from that to Spike, while a little obvious,
> is a rather inspired twist.
This again ties in with 'Touched'. We saw Spike declare his love for
Buffy to be truly selfless:
"When I say 'I love you,' it's not because I want you or because I
can't have you. It has nothing to do with me."
Now can he live up to his words? It ties back to S5 - in Crush he
declared that he loved Buffy, in his own idiotic way and the viewer had
to question that. But then in 'Intervention' he proved that his love
*was* real, when he was ready to die rather than tell Glory about Dawn.
So here we go again - Spike is being tested. Is his love truly
selfless? Remember in 'Becoming' he betrayed Angelus and Dru...
> The First would seem to have a contingency
> plan of some kind. Like presumably many viewers prone to taking things
> at face value, I'd assumed that we could forget about its plans for
> Spoik once he had his triggerectomy. This has the potential for
> dumbness or greatness, more so than anything else set up here.
Aye.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - The Holy Hand Grenade reference
> - "You look... timely"
> One-sentence summary: Resolves things and sets more stages at the same
> time - now let's see if we can finish strong.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Good for me also. This was the quiet before the storm, better buckle
up...
Benjamin Pavsner
Granted, a lot of effort to get a weapon....
2. The way Xander deals with losing his eye is very much in line with his
character. I wouldn't have wrote it any other way.
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161150881.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
bookworm
ANDREW: Oh, this one has oxygen tanks.
ANYA: They?d only be useful if something big was attacking, and then we
could shove one down their throat and blow ?em up like Roy Scheider did
with that shark in Jaws.
!!!! ANDREW: (awed) You are the perfect woman.!!!!
ANYA: (nods) I?ve often thought so.
someone else but Xander really appreciating Anya is so heart-warming...
oh, and the wheelchair-fight...
rrh...@acme.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> going to say about it, but, shiny.
Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain. Most
people know it because the standard image of the Grim Reaper has him
carrying a scythe. But not because it is a weapon. Actually, it kind
of sucks as a weapon. You might use it that way in an emergency, but
not by choice. The Grim Reaper has a scythe specifically because he
reaps, i.e. harvests, souls.
So what is that trinket Buffy found lying about? It is a Stupid
Fantasy Weapon. In fairness, as Stupid Fantasy Weapons go it is
comparatively non-stupid. So what should Buffy have called it? If we
want to use an existing name, rather than a Stupid Fantasy Weapon Name,
I would probably go with "glaive" being sort close. But certainly not
"scythe", which is is almost entirely unlike.
The other thing that bothers me is how everyone looks at it as says
"Ooh! That's old!" It doesn't look old. It looks like machined
stainless steel painted with acrylics. Indeed, that is probably what
it is. It looks like something for sale at the huckster's room at a
con. It certainly doesn't look old.
This is really just a minor bit of sloppy prop design, but I suffer
from actually knowing a little about old weapons, and so it bothers me.
Richard R. Hershberger
burt...@hotmail.com
Then why on Earth wasn't Caleb using it when he fought Buffy?
Elisi
Um... he did. From the transcript:
~~~~~~
He picks her up by the lapels and swings her body into a stone pillar
so hard that it moves one of the stones out of place. Buffy falls to
the ground, and Caleb picks up the scythe.
CALEB
I was kind of hoping it'd go this way. (rears back with the scythe as
he stares at Buffy)
~~~~~
Before that, he couldn't get it out if the stone himself. Remember how
pissed off he was when he found the inscription at the Monestary:
Monk: He was going on about this ancient inscription. He read it... and
he didn't like what it said. His temper... He was the purest evil I've
ever seen. He burned his mark upon me. And then I ran and I hid... and
I listened to the others die.
Spike: (translating) "It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."
burt...@hotmail.com
I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
> Before that, he couldn't get it out if the stone himself. Remember how
> pissed off he was when he found the inscription at the Monestary:
>
> Monk: He was going on about this ancient inscription. He read it... and
> he didn't like what it said. His temper... He was the purest evil I've
> ever seen. He burned his mark upon me. And then I ran and I hid... and
> I listened to the others die.
>
> Spike: (translating) "It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."
Well, obviously that's not true, since Caleb was able to pick it up and
wield it just fine.
George W Harris
:> Um... he did. From the transcript:
:
:I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
:just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
:the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
Yeah, you're not real clear on that Chosen One
concept, are you? Ever hear of the legend of King Arthur?
The Sword In The Stone? Is any of this ringing a bell?
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
burt...@hotmail.com
George W Harris wrote:
> On 18 Oct 2006 09:58:27 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> :> Um... he did. From the transcript:
> :
> :I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
> :just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
> :the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
>
> Yeah, you're not real clear on that Chosen One
> concept, are you? Ever hear of the legend of King Arthur?
> The Sword In The Stone? Is any of this ringing a bell?
So if the idea was to let Buffy pull the Scythe out of the stone and
then take it away from her, what was Caleb (with the First's blessing)
doing trying to kill her before she'd gotten anywhere near it?
No matter how you look at this, it doesn't make any sense at all.
George W Harris
:
:George W Harris wrote:
:> On 18 Oct 2006 09:58:27 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
:>
:> :> Um... he did. From the transcript:
:> :
:> :I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
:> :just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
:> :the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
:>
:> Yeah, you're not real clear on that Chosen One
:> concept, are you? Ever hear of the legend of King Arthur?
:> The Sword In The Stone? Is any of this ringing a bell?
:
:So if the idea was to let Buffy pull the Scythe out of the stone and
:then take it away from her,
Who ever said that was the idea (besides you, I mean)?
:what was Caleb (with the First's blessing)
:doing trying to kill her before she'd gotten anywhere near it?
:
:No matter how you look at this, it doesn't make any sense at all.
Well, the stuff you made up doesn't make sense, anyway.
Good thing that wasn't in the show.
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
burt...@hotmail.com
George W Harris wrote:
> On 18 Oct 2006 10:27:09 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> :
> :George W Harris wrote:
> :> On 18 Oct 2006 09:58:27 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> :>
> :> :> Um... he did. From the transcript:
> :> :
> :> :I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
> :> :just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
> :> :the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
> :>
> :> Yeah, you're not real clear on that Chosen One
> :> concept, are you? Ever hear of the legend of King Arthur?
> :> The Sword In The Stone? Is any of this ringing a bell?
> :
> :So if the idea was to let Buffy pull the Scythe out of the stone and
> :then take it away from her,
>
> Who ever said that was the idea (besides you, I mean)?
The person I was responding to in this thread. Quote:
b) Try to free it so you can use it against the Good Guys. 'Cause just
how awesome would it be to kill the Slayer with her own secret weapon?
Try to pay attention, would you?
> :what was Caleb (with the First's blessing)
> :doing trying to kill her before she'd gotten anywhere near it?
> :
> :No matter how you look at this, it doesn't make any sense at all.
>
> Well, the stuff you made up doesn't make sense, anyway.
> Good thing that wasn't in the show.
I didn't make anything up. What was in the show was the First handing
Buffy an incredibly powerful weapon for no reason at all. Which, you
know, doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
Stephen Tempest
>I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
>just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
>the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
*Woosh*
Here's a few bits of dialogue you seem to have missed:
___
"Is this going to do anything? Or is all of this just to make the
Bringers sweat? Do the Bringers sweat?"
"Actually, I think they pant, like dogs. And, I don't know if this is
doing any good. But we've got to try everything... what's a prophesy
got on brute strength?"
___
"It shouldn't be long now. Prophesies say one thing but brute strength
says another. We'll get it out."
___
"So? You found it. Not impressed. Because the question now, girly girl
is: can you pry that out of solid rock before...
"Darn."
___
Buffy pulling the Scythe out of the rock had nothing to due with brute
strength. She could do it because she was the prophesised wielder of
the Scythe.... although as her later fight with Caleb would show, once
the Scythe was free Caleb could use it as a weapon just as she could.
Stephen
burt...@hotmail.com
*Woosh*
Here's the point you seem to have missed: If only Buffy could pull the
Scythe out of the rock, why would the First have its minions dig it out
in the first place? None of its minions could take the weapon, so why
unearth it when your enemy out there *can* take it?
And if the answer is "The First thought its minions could get it out
with brute strength, despite the prophecy," then that only confirms my
initial point: The First is an idiot.
Stephen Tempest
>Just because its talky? Not, say because it shows a tomb Buffy never
>noticed before in 7 years of patrolling Sunnydale cemeteries,
I'm sure the commentary says something like "we've seen this
pyramid-shaped tomb in the background of so many episodes, it's cool
to finally get to use it."
> and in it
>is a woman who has waited, what, 10,000 years, just to meet her? Let no
>one complain that they've got a boring job. My heart goes out to those
>other Guardians who started waiting with her, but never made it to see
>Buffy.
I suspect that anyone opening the tomb other than the prophesised
Scythe-bearer on that specific occasion would have found it long
empty.
Incidentally, my speculation on who the Guardians really were can be
found here:
http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/1442.html
(AoQ should wait until after he's seen the next episode before reading
it, should he be so inclined)
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
>
>First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
> A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain. Most
>people know it because the standard image of the Grim Reaper has him
>carrying a scythe.
You're right... it's not a scythe. It is, however, called The Scythe.
Why? Because a scythe is the traditional weapon of Death.
(If you want to get technical, its actual name is M? which is
apparently Ancient Egyptian for 'Scythe'.)
Tolkien fans might like to compare Gandalf's sword Glamdring, which
means 'Foe-Hammer'. Yet it's not a hammer... it's a sword. Does that
discrepancy bother people too?
Stephen
hayes62
The design comes from the fray comic so it may be sloppy illustrators
rather than sloppy prop designers you need to blame. There it called a
sceptre, which it also bears no literal resembence to but has the same
symbolic function. Maybe it's a scythe in the sense that Buffy is the
grim reaper of demons.
I have idea why Giles thought it looked ancient, although maybe
compared with a Uzi it does, but the idea that it was some kind of
Scythe came not from him but from Buffy who isn't exactly famous for
terminiological accuracy. Caleb seemed to think the correct technical
term was "two-sided doodad."
~H
hayes62
The design comes from the Fray comic so it may be sloppy illustrators
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> > (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
>
> > A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn scenes.
> > Little Sister is kind enough to
> > return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
> > for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
> > "Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
> > Because it's her right to get put in danger and scream during the
> > climax if she wants to, dammit.
>
> It could also be seen as 'Buffy won't choose you'...
Which just goes to show how useless the "prophecy" was if something like
that can be considered it being fulfilled.
Stephen Tempest
>*Woosh*
>
>Here's the point you seem to have missed: If only Buffy could pull the
>Scythe out of the rock, why would the First have its minions dig it out
>in the first place? None of its minions could take the weapon, so why
>unearth it when your enemy out there *can* take it?
>And if the answer is "The First thought its minions could get it out
>with brute strength, despite the prophecy,"
That is, in fact, the answer. Which the show stated, explicitly, on at
least two separate occasions.
Still, it's not surprising you missed it... from your previous
comments, it seems you only really notice the scenes that Spike
appears in...
(or if he's not on screen at any particular moment, your only concern
in watching is to wonder "what is this meant to tell us about Spike?")
> then that only confirms my
>initial point: The First is an idiot.
Yes, because prophecies are such reliable guides to what's going to
happen. And when the Ultimate Evil is told that something powerful "is
not for thee" its reaction is naturally going to be "fair enough then,
I won't try and take it for myself. That would be stealing!"
Stephen
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> >*Woosh*
> >
> >Here's the point you seem to have missed: If only Buffy could pull the
> >Scythe out of the rock, why would the First have its minions dig it out
> >in the first place? None of its minions could take the weapon, so why
> >unearth it when your enemy out there *can* take it?
>
> >And if the answer is "The First thought its minions could get it out
> >with brute strength, despite the prophecy,"
>
> That is, in fact, the answer. Which the show stated, explicitly, on at
> least two separate occasions.
>
> Still, it's not surprising you missed it... from your previous
> comments, it seems you only really notice the scenes that Spike
> appears in...
>
> (or if he's not on screen at any particular moment, your only concern
> in watching is to wonder "what is this meant to tell us about Spike?")
Just curious, do you enjoy looking like an idiot? Because expounding
upon subjects of which you are completely ignorant is a good way to
achieve that goal....
> > then that only confirms my
> >initial point: The First is an idiot.
>
> Yes, because prophecies are such reliable guides to what's going to
> happen. And when the Ultimate Evil is told that something powerful "is
> not for thee" its reaction is naturally going to be "fair enough then,
> I won't try and take it for myself. That would be stealing!"
Well, apparentely its reaction was "I'll have my minions dig this
powerful Slayer weapon out from underneath several feet of rock where
my enemies would have had no way of reaching it, thereby calling their
attention to it when I *know* for a fact that they can take it and use
it against me, while I have at best blind, baseless hope that my
minions will be able to take it and use it against them."
Like I said: The First is an idiot.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> Director: Marita Grabiak
.
> Our slayer showing up to save the
> MC50000 (who I must say aren't handling themselves too badly at all)
Kennedy briefly steps into the leadership role, and does a pretty good job
under the circumstances. Buffy takes command soon enough, but not before
we've seen that leadership potential is apparently not that rare a
commodity.
> day. It doesn't bother me too much since the show doesn't seem to
> be using it to demean or blame Faith. The lesson, if one must look for
> morals, comes from Buffy as she talks about how this could have
> happened to either of them,
I always want to say "Buffy, it not only could have happened to you, it
DID happen to you."
When Giles examines the Scythe and says "In addition to being ancient,
it's clearly mystical," I want him to go on and add "Because it's so
shiny," as he did with the sphere in NPLH. About the name Scythe, well,
clearly it's not one. Is it a reference to the Grim Reaper's scythe?
Isn't that a little too grim for the good guy's weapon?
> that "people die. You lead them into
> battle, they're gonna die. It doesn't matter how ready you are or how
> smart you are." Both Slayers have made mistakes that cost young
> people their lives and organs, and it's not a reason to stop
> fighting. It seems like Buffy's found an answer that satisfies her
> as far as accepting the still-existing things that were bothering her
> last week.
This reminds me of a General Lee quote about the general's dilemma,
something like "To be a good general you have to love the army, but to win
you have to send the thing you love to its death." (I'm not sure if that
was from the great novel _The Killer Angels_, the barely mediocre movie
Gettysburg, or real life. Maybe all three.) Buffy has already long since
resigned herself to facing her own death. Now she and Faith have come to
terms with the grim reality that, when they lead their people against the
First's minions, at least some of them will die. It's horrible, but
that's the way it is, and they had to get past it to have any chance at
all of winning. A nice parallel is drawn between the loneliness of the
Slayer and the loneliness of command. The whole scene was very
satisfying.
(As the series draws to its conclusion, notice who does and does not get
a final one-on-one scene with Buffy, and who does and does not get a
final showpiece scene.)
> There's a poignant
> little moment in which Xander's wondering why he can't be by her
> side to the end, the way he's always wanted to be. One wonders if
> she'll say say that he's forfeited that right, but instead she
> gives him a chance to still have her absolute trust. That's nice.
Another great scene. The show's trademark mix of sincerity and humor was
used to great effect here. I love Xander's little goof in mentioning "the
end," the blend of amusement and affection in Buffy's "I know what you
meant," and her little teasing revenge on him by commenting on his
impaired fighting skills.
> Continuing, though, to ask the question of what purpose the short-lived
> exile served... for once I'm going to (sort of) side with the
> "Buffy And Spike Show" crowd. I believe that the writers'
> primary, and possibly sole reason for having Buffy get voted off the
> island was to do the B/S scene in "Touched."
Even cynical old me would hesitate to say that this was the *sole* reason
for the end of EP. It was also vital to the whole Buffy-as-leader story
arc: she had to not only fail, but lose her position as leader altogether.
(And just because she's back now, sadder but wiser, doesn't mean that arc
is finished yet.)
> Speaking of whom, Spike isn't in this episode very much. But he
> drops by to have an initially avoidant conversation with our hero. And
> I did wonder for a second if they were really going to throw away that
> connection they made the night before behind their insecurity and
> self-doubt. Fortunately, Buffy runs after him with the entertaining
> line "you're a dope. And a bonehead. And you're shirty," and
> it's a relief to see them talking out loud, confirming each other's
> feelings about what they've shared.
Yet another good scene. This is one of those times I could really
sympathize with Spike in his confusion and vulnerability. At the
beginning he carefully gives Buffy a way to back away from what happened
in Touched without hurting him *too* much; I can imagine him practicing
that bit the way Willow practiced her "Buffy's taking a breather"
speech. And I like the way the show continually goes *beyond* a
conventional dramatic ending to examine the messy, complicated aftermath.
The hero in exile returns, fine, but what how does she fit back into her
old home? She dies a heroic death, but what happens after that? And she
and Spike finally share a true connection in Touched, but what does *that*
mean? Appropriately, there is no easy answer, just an acknowledgement
that it was important but confusing, maybe too much to hash out now on the
eve of the Apocalypse.
BTW, this conversation seems to confirm that Buffy and Spike did not have
sex in Touched, if anyone is still uncertain about that.
Spike's "Holy Hand Grenade" line is his second Monty Python reference in
less than a day, following the "comfy chair" line in Touched. That guy
clearly watches too much TV, but at least some of it is quality stuff.
(There may be another Python reference on the axe website Willow is
looking at, which mentions a Black Knight.)
> It's interesting that Willow still hasn't had her confidence built
> back up yet, despite several attempts to get over certain hurdles.
> "If I tried something big, I'd change."
Though you have to wonder if Willow isn't using magic right now, since
she's surfing the web during a power outage. Her iBook has batteries, but
what is it connecting to? But maybe that just counts as minor magic.
Anyway, it's nice to see her and Giles doing some good old-fashioned
research again, even if it's book-free.
> Here
> things are a little muddied by the way the show hasn't really drawn a
> clear distinction between what counts as "strong" and "not
> strong" magic. One might suspect that the writers have been using it
> as a way to make Willow still be a witch but confine her to a S4 level
> of power so as not to make the good guys too invincible.
Some of us also occasionally suspect that about the whole magic addiction
storyline in season 6.
> But anyway,
> this issue has not been resolved yet, so we get a reminder of it.
> I'd argue that Willow's character development has been largely
> arrested since around CWDP because of it; I've enjoyed most of S7
> overall, but it needs more Willow. So, finale, do something cool.
Don't worry -- in the finale, Willow finally casts a successful,
problem-free demon locator spell. It's awesome.
> A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn scenes.
> The laughter at the Cyclops thing is a little overdone, but otherwise I
> enjoy Xander making it a matter of principle to demand more creativity
> in humor. It's also disarming, so that his color form attack on Dawn
> in the middle of a sentence becomes a real surprise, coming out of
> nowhere. We did figure out that he was working on Buffy's behalf,
> but tis' still a surprising moment. Little Sister is kind enough to
> return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
> for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
> "Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
> Because it's her right to get put in danger and scream during the
> climax if she wants to, dammit. Not really connected with the central
> story, at least for now, but a good character showpiece for the
> normals.
I agree with all that. OFV I figured out what Xander was doing after a
few seconds, but for those few seconds it was another one of those great
upsetting yet thrilling shocks that so few non-Whedon shows manage to give
me. I was also really amused to hear that Giles, of all people, made the
"No more fun and games, eh?" joke.
> Of the extended character moments (which are principally among the main
> cast rather than the extras, thankfully) another one has even less to
> do with the main plot.
[snip 'cause I'm quoting too much]
> Going from that into a
> wheelchair fight is one of the strangest and most hilarious transitions
> in the whole BTVS canon.
I remember disliking this OFV. It just felt a little too silly and OTT.
In retrospect, I think my OFV self was an idiot, because this is perfectly
hilarious. I must have just been in a grouchy mood that day.
> I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
> woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
> blah blah blah.
Ah yes. That. It's not only by far the worst part of the episode, it's
probably one of my least favorite developments of the entire series. I
disliked it that much. First of all, the whole thing felt way too
contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
the open this whole time? The so-called Guardian of the Scythe didn't
make an appearance when Caleb tried to get the Scythe, or when Buffy
picked it up, and didn't even try to contact Buffy with her supposedly
important message afterwards? And if the Guardians are on the Slayer's
side, why didn't they, say, try to help her (perhaps by providing a
Scythe) during any previous apocalypse? ... I can't escape the conclusion
that the Guardian was shoehorned into the story at this point to provide
us with a simplistic contrast between the Good Woman Guardians and the
Evil (or at least nasty and non-good) Male Shadow Men. If Buffy is a
feminist show, it emerges from the strength of its female characters, not
through these metaphor-anvils. And this is the cheapest, shallowest sort
of feminist message imaginable -- and also the flimsiest. If we asked
Caleb about the Guardians, I'm sure he'd say "Isn't that just like women?
Sitting around waiting for thousands of years, doing nothing useful...."
Finally, if you're going to bring an Exposition Fairy in, you should at
least give it some unique info to expound. There's no reason they
couldn't have had Willow and Giles figure out what little the Guardian
says. The whole thing was just a mistake, a waste of time at a point when
the series has less than an hour of screen time left.
Well, okay, the Guardian does say one interesting thing that might not
have worked as well coming from a regular, non-Scythe-expert character:
"This is a powerful weapon ... but you already have weapons." The Scythe
is important, but it is not in itself the answer.
> Although
> he's merged with the evil power, and is suggested to be its ultimate
> vessel, Buffy kills him here after a good evenly-matched fight scene.
So Caleb and the First are finally seen touching, an episode after
everyone else.
> (oh,
> can I mention that I always like what Gellar does with the First?).
Sarah is in a weird position playing Buffy -- she's so consistently good
that commenters frequently take her performance for granted. I'm always
glad to see AOQ giving her her due.
> act. Thus, I, and I'd assume pretty much everyone, knew that at some
> point during the fight with Caleb, Angel would stride in and save the
> day, probably just enough to turn the tide for our hero to handle the
> actual killing. Good to see him being part of the conclusion, although
> here I'm not sure quite why the show feels it necessary to do what
> appears to be a "what we see is distorted by characters'
> perception" thing. It's a very overdone moment in a way that I
> certainly hope was intentional, with the sweeping crescendo of the
> soundtrack, and Angel charging into the battle in slow motion, hair
> flapping in the nonexistent wind, like some romantic Dark Avenger.
> Could we save that for scenes that aren't so important, and in the
> second to last episode of the entire series?
Think of it in terms of the show's above-mentioned tradition of giving us
a traditional dramatic moment and then going *beyond* it to examine the
messier, less-cliched aftermath. Buffy and Angel can be simply, genuinely
happy to see each other at this moment of crisis, and in the immediate
glow of victory ... but where on earth will they go from there?
> On the other hand, the cut from that to Spike, while a little obvious,
> is a rather inspired twist.
Another of Mutant Enemy's trademarks.
> One-sentence summary: Resolves things and sets more stages at the same
> time - now let's see if we can finish strong.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
This one felt more like a collection of scenes than a united episode.
Most of those scenes were very good, but I hated the one with the
Guardian, so it can't be more than a very bottom Good, maybe just a high
Decent.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> > (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> > Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
> > Director: Marita Grabiak
>
> .
> Spike's "Holy Hand Grenade" line is his second Monty Python reference in
> less than a day, following the "comfy chair" line in Touched. That guy
> clearly watches too much TV, but at least some of it is quality stuff.
> (There may be another Python reference on the axe website Willow is
> looking at, which mentions a Black Knight.)
I wouldn't count a mere mention of a Black Knight as a Python reference.
There were Black Knights long before the Pythons came along.
>
> > It's interesting that Willow still hasn't had her confidence built
> > back up yet, despite several attempts to get over certain hurdles.
> > "If I tried something big, I'd change."
>
> Though you have to wonder if Willow isn't using magic right now, since
> she's surfing the web during a power outage. Her iBook has batteries, but
> what is it connecting to? But maybe that just counts as minor magic.
> Anyway, it's nice to see her and Giles doing some good old-fashioned
> research again, even if it's book-free.
Keeping her laptop powered up is small magic, not something big.
BTR1701
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think treating Angel as a straightforward character in
> the story at this point would make little sense, and would only raise
> the question: Why hasn't he been here all along, helping prepare for
> the Apocalypse?
Even if I hadn't been watching ANGEL, my response to that question would
be, perhaps he's had a crisis or two of his own to deal with in L.A.
BTR1701
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> > going to say about it, but, shiny.
>
> Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
>
> First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
> A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain.
And this is something I've never understood: the near hysterical
arguments over what amounts to a bit of terminology, nothing more. Call
it an axe or a cleaver or a big honkin' toothpick. I couldn't care less.
> So what is that trinket Buffy found lying about? It is a Stupid
> Fantasy Weapon. In fairness, as Stupid Fantasy Weapons go it is
> comparatively non-stupid. So what should Buffy have called it? If we
> want to use an existing name, rather than a Stupid Fantasy Weapon Name,
> I would probably go with "glaive" being sort close. But certainly not
> "scythe", which is is almost entirely unlike.
Yeah, 'cause Buffy is such the expert on ancient weapon nomenclature.
She's never been one to mangle the English language or anything. Truly a
first for her...
yamsham
<burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161199553.7...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Or supremely overconfident, the way Big Bads always are?
rrh...@acme.com
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <1161186542.4...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> rrh...@acme.com wrote:
>
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > > That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> > > going to say about it, but, shiny.
> >
> > Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
> >
> > First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
> > A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain.
>
> And this is something I've never understood: the near hysterical
> arguments over what amounts to a bit of terminology, nothing more. Call
> it an axe or a cleaver or a big honkin' toothpick. I couldn't care less.
Well, I admitted it bothered me more than it should...
Would it bother you if a character in a movie drove a Porsche, but he
called it a Jaguar, and other characters would walk by and say things
like "Nice Jag!" and there was absolutely no hint that any hidden
message was intended? I suspect that a lot of people would find that
at least odd. It's all in what you know, and the producers bothered to
research. In the case of Buffy's scythe, it is, in seriousness, merely
a distraction to me. But it is a complete unnecessary distraction. It
wouldn't have cost them any more to call it something else.
Richard R. Hershberger
rrh...@acme.com
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> rrh...@acme.com writes:
>
> >Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
> >
> >First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
> > A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain. Most
> >people know it because the standard image of the Grim Reaper has him
> >carrying a scythe.
>
> You're right... it's not a scythe. It is, however, called The Scythe.
> Why? Because a scythe is the traditional weapon of Death.
>
> (If you want to get technical, its actual name is M? which is
> apparently Ancient Egyptian for 'Scythe'.)
I'm almost, but not quite, willing to buy this. A scythe isn't the
traditional weapon of Death, because Death's role is not to fight. He
reaps: hence the use of an agricultural implement.
It may well be that you have identified the intended metaphor, what
with all the talk about Slayers and death. But the metaphor is
botched.
>
> Tolkien fans might like to compare Gandalf's sword Glamdring, which
> means 'Foe-Hammer'. Yet it's not a hammer... it's a sword. Does that
> discrepancy bother people too?
This is a much better executed metaphor. Even though a literal hammer
uses blunt force while a sword is a pointy object such as might easily
take an eye out, the metaphor of pounding on one's opponent, as if with
a hammer, is standard regardless of the tools used for the job.
Richard R. Hershberger
Malsperanza
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
> > woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
> > blah blah blah.
>
> Ah yes. That. It's not only by far the worst part of the episode, it's
> probably one of my least favorite developments of the entire series. I
> disliked it that much. First of all, the whole thing felt way too
> contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
> the open this whole time? The so-called Guardian of the Scythe didn't
> make an appearance when Caleb tried to get the Scythe, or when Buffy
> picked it up, and didn't even try to contact Buffy with her supposedly
> important message afterwards? And if the Guardians are on the Slayer's
> side, why didn't they, say, try to help her (perhaps by providing a
> Scythe) during any previous apocalypse? ... I can't escape the conclusion
> that the Guardian was shoehorned into the story at this point to provide
> us with a simplistic contrast between the Good Woman Guardians and the
> Evil (or at least nasty and non-good) Male Shadow Men.
Not to mention the Evil Primitive Black African People vs. Virtuous
White Nordic-looking People. On every level: Ugh.
Though I did like the moment when she asked Buffy what her name was,
and when Buffy told her, she responded, "No, really." She was maybe
expecting Xena?
~Mal
George W Harris
:
:George W Harris wrote:
:> On 18 Oct 2006 10:27:09 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :George W Harris wrote:
:> :> On 18 Oct 2006 09:58:27 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :> Um... he did. From the transcript:
:> :> :
:> :> :I'm talking about when they were fighting in the vineyard. Caleb is
:> :> :just as strong if not stronger than Buffy, so if she was able to pull
:> :> :the Scythe out of the rock, he could have done so as well.
:> :>
:> :> Yeah, you're not real clear on that Chosen One
:> :> concept, are you? Ever hear of the legend of King Arthur?
:> :> The Sword In The Stone? Is any of this ringing a bell?
:> :
:> :So if the idea was to let Buffy pull the Scythe out of the stone and
:> :then take it away from her,
:>
:> Who ever said that was the idea (besides you, I mean)?
:
:The person I was responding to in this thread. Quote:
:
:b) Try to free it so you can use it against the Good Guys. 'Cause just
:how awesome would it be to kill the Slayer with her own secret weapon?
:
:Try to pay attention, would you?
And where there did they say the idea was to let
*Buffy* pull the scythe? I don't see it, 'cause it ain't there.
Try to pay attention, would you?
:> :what was Caleb (with the First's blessing)
:> :doing trying to kill her before she'd gotten anywhere near it?
:> :
:> :No matter how you look at this, it doesn't make any sense at all.
:>
:> Well, the stuff you made up doesn't make sense, anyway.
:> Good thing that wasn't in the show.
:
:I didn't make anything up.
Except for the bit about letting Buffy pull the
scythe and taking it from her being the idea. That's
the bit you made up, and it's the bit that doesn't make
sense.
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W Harris
wrote:
:Well, okay, the Guardian does say one interesting thing that might not
:have worked as well coming from a regular, non-Scythe-expert character:
:"This is a powerful weapon ... but you already have weapons." The Scythe
:is important, but it is not in itself the answer.
There is another interpretation of that statement.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
BTR1701
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <1161186542.4...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> >
> > > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > >
> > > > That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> > > > going to say about it, but, shiny.
> > >
> > > Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
> > >
> > > First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
> > > A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain.
> >
> > And this is something I've never understood: the near hysterical
> > arguments over what amounts to a bit of terminology, nothing more. Call
> > it an axe or a cleaver or a big honkin' toothpick. I couldn't care less.
>
> Well, I admitted it bothered me more than it should...
>
> Would it bother you if a character in a movie drove a Porsche, but he
> called it a Jaguar, and other characters would walk by and say things
> like "Nice Jag!" and there was absolutely no hint that any hidden
> message was intended?
I'd probably laugh at it for a second or two but that's about it. I sure
wouldn't wage days-long debates about it as happened here when these
episodes first aired.
> I suspect that a lot of people would find that
> at least odd. It's all in what you know, and the producers bothered to
> research. In the case of Buffy's scythe, it is, in seriousness, merely
> a distraction to me. But it is a complete unnecessary distraction. It
> wouldn't have cost them any more to call it something else.
They thought it sounded cool. Simple as that. Accuracy was not a concern.
Same reason they have every cop rack the slide of his pistol or breech
of his shotgun right before going through a door on a raid in every
movie and TV show in history. Never mind the fact that by doing that, it
means that up until that point, the cop was walking around with an
unloaded gun-- something no real cop would ever do.
It looks cool. It sounds cool. (Or at least Hollywood thinks it does.)
Realism always takes a second seat to drama.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
>(or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
>Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
>Director: Marita Grabiak
>
>A last collaborative effort for another two writers... *sniffle*. I
>notice that Marti's gotten almost no writing credit this season - I
>guess Executive Producing is a big job.
>
>That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
>going to say about it, but, shiny.
I don't see that anyone else has mentioned it yet, so I'll point out that
the PST (Pretty Shiny Thing) made its first appearance in the Whedon
written comic book 'Fray' (about a future Slayer), one of the very few
things, perhaps the only thing, to go from a Buffy media tie-in to become
part of the show canon.
>Okay, so one thing of note that comes up is that Buffy strides right
>back in, people accept that she can get the job done, and she's back
>to confiding in her friends while being a little aloof, the One.
>It's like a conscious effort to pretend that the fallout of the last
>two episodes didn't happen.
"We were being punished."
Amanda knows the last two episodes happened.
Also loved Faith's suggestion that Chao-Ahn be the next leader.
>It's interesting that Willow still hasn't had her confidence built
>back up yet, despite several attempts to get over certain hurdles.
To have her confidence built back up, it would have to have been, you know,
'up' sometime in the past. The most we have ever seen from Willow is
bravado, covering up an interior lack of feeling self-worth.
>"If I tried something big, I'd change." How she'll handle
>herself when everything's at stake is an important question. Here
>things are a little muddied by the way the show hasn't really drawn a
>clear distinction between what counts as "strong" and "not
>strong" magic. One might suspect that the writers have been using it
>as a way to make Willow still be a witch but confine her to a S4 level
>of power so as not to make the good guys too invincible.
Well, it beats having her knocked unconscious at the beginning of every
fight scene (although they did resort to that at least once).
>But anyway,
>this issue has not been resolved yet, so we get a reminder of it.
>I'd argue that Willow's character development has been largely
>arrested since around CWDP because of it; I've enjoyed most of S7
>overall, but it needs more Willow. So, finale, do something cool.
Ok. :)
>A set of interactions that I like comes in the two Xander/Dawn scenes.
>The laughter at the Cyclops thing is a little overdone, but otherwise I
>enjoy Xander making it a matter of principle to demand more creativity
>in humor. It's also disarming, so that his color form attack on Dawn
>in the middle of a sentence becomes a real surprise, coming out of
>nowhere. We did figure out that he was working on Buffy's behalf,
>but tis' still a surprising moment. Little Sister is kind enough to
>return the favor, cutting off what should be a nice little
>for-your-own-good voiceover (with the appropriate reference to
>"Grave") by hitting Xander with a whatever and turning around.
>Because it's her right to get put in danger and scream during the
>climax if she wants to, dammit. Not really connected with the central
>story, at least for now, but a good character showpiece for the
>normals.
Electric stun-gun.
And I will give my take on the MKF reference. Lots of people have taken
this as Dawn having accidentally shot MKF. My take is that Dawn carelessly
left a crossbow laying around willy-nilly, and MKF, playing 'pounce' as
cats do, landed on it and set it off, accidentally hitting something, or
someone, else. Now MKF is a cat on the run, trying to atone for the evil
she has done.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Malsperanza
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> rrh...@acme.com writes:
>
> >Heck, I'll say something about it. It bothers me beyond all reason.
> >
> >First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a scythe.
> > A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting grain. Most
> >people know it because the standard image of the Grim Reaper has him
> >carrying a scythe.
>
> You're right... it's not a scythe. It is, however, called The Scythe.
> Why? Because a scythe is the traditional weapon of Death.
>
> (If you want to get technical, its actual name is M? which is
> apparently Ancient Egyptian for 'Scythe'.)
That would explain why it looks so ancient Egyptian, assuming that
ancient Egypt was designed by the folks at Harley-Davidson.
> Tolkien fans might like to compare Gandalf's sword Glamdring, which
> means 'Foe-Hammer'. Yet it's not a hammer... it's a sword. Does that
> discrepancy bother people too?
Tolkien is following a convention of medieval narrative that uses
"hammer" as a synonym of "smiter," so it follows a familiar precedent.
I can't help feeling that ME went with the word "scythe" mainly so they
could use that "scythe matters" line. I'd like to think there was a
reference to the Grim Reaper too, but I can't make that work with the
fact that this is a Goodguys' weapon, a
Wicca-good-and-love-the-earth-and-women-power-weapon, not a Firsty
kinda thing at all.
I fear that this is an instance where ME really didn't care too much
about the fine points. Doesn't really bother me much, given that I
can't make much sense of the whole Sekrit Weapon o' Goodness anyway.
So, yeah, scythe, whatever.
~Mal
drifter
>> going to say about it, but, shiny.
>
>
> First, because it isn't a scythe. It isn't even vaguely like a
> scythe. A scythle is an agricultural implement used in harvesting
> grain. Most people know it because the standard image of the Grim
> Actually, it kind of sucks as a weapon. You might use it that way in
> an emergency, but not by choice. The Grim Reaper has a scythe
> specifically because he reaps, i.e. harvests, souls.
>
> Fantasy Weapon. In fairness, as Stupid Fantasy Weapons go it is
> comparatively non-stupid. So what should Buffy have called it? If we
> want to use an existing name, rather than a Stupid Fantasy Weapon
> Name, I would probably go with "glaive" being sort close. But
> certainly not "scythe", which is is almost entirely unlike.
>
> "Ooh! That's old!" It doesn't look old. It looks like machined
> stainless steel painted with acrylics. Indeed, that is probably what
> it is. It looks like something for sale at the huckster's room at a
> con. It certainly doesn't look old.
>
> This is really just a minor bit of sloppy prop design, but I suffer
> from actually knowing a little about old weapons, and so it bothers
> me.
"...the main point is that it is tilting at windmills to think that we can
halt language change, even were it desirable."
Who said that, again?
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Ken from Chicago
"Espen Schjønberg" <ess...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:eh4tl4$2nq$1...@readme.uio.no...
> On 18.10.2006 11:47, Ken from Chicago wrote:
>
>>
>> I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
>
> Gur cyna vf gb znxr gur tbbq fvqr hayrnfu/vagebqhpr zber qrzba cbjref va
> guvf jbeyq, nf gung jvyy bcra gur tngrf sbe rira zber qrzbaf va gur arkg
> fgrc.
>
> Gur ehyrf bs ratntrzrag ner chg hc fb obgu fvqrf zhfg jnag guvf. Gur onq
> fvqr jnagf vg nyernql, jung vf zvffvat vf gur tbbq fvqr gb qb vg.
>
> Jr jvyy svaq bhg vs gur Fynlre naq ure sevraqf ner jvyyvat gb qb gur onq
> thlf ovqqvat.
>
> --
> Espen
That ... actually makes sense, kinda. Tho it kinda backfired.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161165726.6...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>
>> I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
>>
>
> Seems pretty straightforward to me...
>
> Gur Svefg: V jvyy bireeha guvf Rnegu. Naq jura zl nezl bhgahzoref gur
> uhznaf ba guvf Rnegu, gur fpnyrf jvyy gvc naq V jvyy or znqr syrfu.
>
> Zrffvat nebhaq jvgu Ohssl & sevraqf jnf whfg vgf irefvba bs univat sha.
> Yvxr Natryhf.
>
When and where and what episode?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-2FC07...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <9Ludncswtp2pZajY...@comcast.com>,>> news:1161152574....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> >> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> >> threads.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> >> Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
>> >> (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
>> >> Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
>> >> Director: Marita Grabiak
>> >
>> > did, but it does have what's quite possibly the biggest plot-related
>> > WTF? moment in the whole series. Okay, the Scythe is an incredibly
>> > powerful weapon in the hands of a Slayer - so why the hell did the
>> > First have its minions go to all the trouble of excavating it instead
>> > of leaving it buried under several feet of rock where Buffy would have
>> > had no way of reaching it (or knowing it even existed)? Seriously, can
>> > you think of a stupider move it could have made? Talk about an idiot
>> > plot.
>> >
>>
>> I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
>
Ohh, look at the shiny thing in the water.
-- Ken from Chicago
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
> the open this whole time? The so-called Guardian of the Scythe didn't
its been there ever since at least reptile boy
in the opening when the girl jumps the wall into the backlot cemetery
we see her run past the pyramid befoer the frat boys grab her again
the only difference is now it has fence around it
ive never seen a pyramidal tomb before
adn i was always wondering what it was doing there
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> and when Buffy told her, she responded, "No, really." She was maybe
> expecting Xena?
remember the difference of how kendra announces herself
and how buffy does it in anne
buffy keeps subverting the myth
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
>>(or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
>>Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
>>Director: Marita Grabiak
>
>
> This episode doesn't inspire the kind of loathing in me that "Touched"
> did, but it does have what's quite possibly the biggest plot-related
> WTF? moment in the whole series. Okay, the Scythe is an incredibly
> powerful weapon in the hands of a Slayer - so why the hell did the
> First have its minions go to all the trouble of excavating it instead
> of leaving it buried under several feet of rock where Buffy would have
> had no way of reaching it (or knowing it even existed)? Seriously, can
> you think of a stupider move it could have made? Talk about an idiot
> plot.
>
Because, just like the monks wanted to use the power of the Key for
good, the First and its minions wanted to use the power of the Scythe
(it's an axe!) for evil.
Mel
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-35530...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> In article <12jd0m7...@corp.supernews.com>,
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
> > contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
> > the open this whole time? The so-called Guardian of the Scythe didn't
>
> its been there ever since at least reptile boy
>
> in the opening when the girl jumps the wall into the backlot cemetery
> we see her run past the pyramid befoer the frat boys grab her again
>
> the only difference is now it has fence around it
It's a different pyramid. This one's bigger than the old one.
Here's the results of some checking that I did when this came up in the
past:
I went back and got some screen caps out of "What's My Line" showing the
old pyramid, and from "End of Days" showing the new one.
First the old pyramid, behind Buffy and Giles:
<http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Stuff/Pyramids/Pyramid1.jpg>
It is quite a ways back behind them, near the wall. Here's a picture of
Buffy entering the cemetery gate to give you an idea how high the wall
is:
<http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Stuff/Pyramids/Wall.jpg>
And finally, a picture of Buffy entering the Guardian's pyramid:
<http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Stuff/Pyramids/Guardian.jpg>
Buffy is 130 pixels tall in the picture of her going through the gate,
and the wall is 160 pixels. If Buffy's wearing two inch heals, she'd be
5'5", making the wall 6'8". The pyramid is slightly taller than the
wall, making it about 7'.
Here's another picture where I extrapolated the height of the Guardian's
pyramid:
<http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Stuff/Pyramids/Guardian2.jpg>
In this picture Buffy is 150 pixels tall, and the pyramid is 270 pixels.
Using the same 5'5" height for Buffy, the Guardian's pyramid would be
about 9'9", or almost three feet taller than the old cemetery pyramid.
(And am I obsessive, or what?)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> About the name Scythe, well,
> clearly it's not one. Is it a reference to the Grim Reaper's scythe?
> Isn't that a little too grim for the good guy's weapon?
Death is her gift, her power is forged form darkness, etc. etc.
> > But anyway,
> > this issue has not been resolved yet, so we get a reminder of it.
> > I'd argue that Willow's character development has been largely
> > arrested since around CWDP because of it; I've enjoyed most of S7
> > overall, but it needs more Willow. So, finale, do something cool.
>
> Don't worry -- in the finale, Willow finally casts a successful,
> problem-free demon locator spell. It's awesome.
Heehee.
I don't have the same hatred for this part that some do, alhough I
certainly don't like it at all. But thinking about it more, it seems
incredibly pointless, doesn't it? What was wrong with the mythology
the show had already? You had ultimate evil, and humans fumbling along
- the Watchers whose methods were misguided, the Slaypack and their
disgustingly human foibles and determination. And Buffy, a woman
alone, being the innovator of new solutions like no other Slayer before
her. How could the writers see any concievable benefit to introducing
the Guardians?
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > probably one of my least favorite developments of the entire series. I
> > disliked it that much. First of all, the whole thing felt way too
> > contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
> I don't have the same hatred for this part that some do, alhough I
> certainly don't like it at all. But thinking about it more, it seems
> incredibly pointless, doesn't it? What was wrong with the mythology
> the show had already? You had ultimate evil, and humans fumbling along
buffy is actually an adaptation of the bonnie and trots comics
bonnie - buffy
trots - spike
pepsi - willow
bonnies mother - the guardians
bonnies father - the watchers
placenta eating hippies - the shadow men
elroy - giles (symbolic of how he is cut off from the council for buffys sake)
the gym teacher - kennedy
cheech wizard (guest appearance) - caleb
peachy ashie passion
>
>
> Electric stun-gun.
>
> And I will give my take on the MKF reference. Lots of people have taken
> this as Dawn having accidentally shot MKF. My take is that Dawn carelessly
> left a crossbow laying around willy-nilly, and MKF, playing 'pounce' as
> cats do, landed on it and set it off, accidentally hitting something, or
> someone, else. Now MKF is a cat on the run, trying to atone for the evil
> she has done.
>
>
I'm with you on this one. MKF is FINE.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> (Maybe it's
> just when she's [Kennedy] with Willow that you dislike her?)
Well, I hate her pretty thoroughly in all contexts; the smugness in
everything gets on my nerves. It's worth briefly pondering that she
was obviously (at least obviously to me) created to be Wilow's
girlfriend first and foremost, and anything else is incidental. And
that relationship is so badly concieved and handled it defies belief,
kinda drowning out the rest. I notice she didn't start annoying me
until TKIM, . So, would the character have worked better if the Willow
stuff were excised and we knew her mostly as the Alpha Potential, the
somewhat bitchy kid who has a way of coming through when courage is
called for? It's hard to say.
-AOQ
hayes62
Elisi wrote:
> > I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
> > woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
> > blah blah blah.
>
> also came out of nowhere, just like Kendra happened to have the sword
> for stopping Acathla). There are a lot of parallels bewteen S2 and S7
> for those that look.
Whistler was more successful at conveying useful information though. I
think the Guardian was more like the Eye of Botox or the hamburger loa.
They needed some kind of exposition to give the Scythe enough back
story to pass muster and rather than have Giles read it out of one of
his ancient texts they had Buffy vist an anoying Oracle. They really
should have kept Doug Petrie away from all things Arthurian after the
Knights that said Key.
Caleb killing her quick kind of redeems it though and there is a
symmetry in the way the Shadowmen tried to give Buffy power and ended
by giving her knowlege, while the Guardian kept wibbling around the
point so long she ran out of time to pass on any information and left
Buffy with a powerful weapon but no more idea of what it was for than
she had before they met. Which is a relief in some ways as it leaves
open the option of seeing the Guardian as a parody of the whole
primordial matriachy Gaia moon good tendency in radical feminism.
~H
(Harmony) Watcher
>
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > > threads.
> > >
> > >
> > > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > > Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> > > (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> > > Writers: Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie
> > > Director: Marita Grabiak
> >
> > This episode doesn't inspire the kind of loathing in me that "Touched"
> > did, but it does have what's quite possibly the biggest plot-related
> > WTF? moment in the whole series. Okay, the Scythe is an incredibly
> > powerful weapon in the hands of a Slayer - so why the hell did the
> > First have its minions go to all the trouble of excavating it instead
> > of leaving it buried under several feet of rock where Buffy would have
> > had no way of reaching it (or knowing it even existed)? Seriously, can
> > you think of a stupider move it could have made? Talk about an idiot
> > plot.
>
> giant army and the confidence to match. You find The Good Guys' 'Very
> Powerful Secret Weapon', that's so secret they don't even know about
> it. Do you:
>
> a) Leave it where it is. Seriously, someone could get hurt - I mean
> look how sharp it is! Bettter play it safe.
>
> b) Try to free it so you can use it against the Good Guys. 'Cause just
> how awesome would it be to kill the Slayer with her own secret weapon?
> hey - uncorporeal!
>
> It's a win/not lose scenario. And definitely not stupid - it's
> opportunistic. Which could be The First's middle name!
>
The silliest execution error in all of BtVS is the choreographical error of
having Buffy drop the Scythe THREE times, and Caleb did not even bother to
pick it up the first two times. As I have pointed out many times, if it were
a mystical ninja, say, the one from AtS "IWRY", instead of Caleb, Buffy will
be in a hundred pieces all over the place the first time she dropped the
Scythe.
No Slayer should EVER EVER be so incompetent as to be able to drop the
Scythe. The Scythe belongs to the Slayer, and there is an adhesive power
between the Slayer's hand and the mystical Scythe that it would take several
thousand kg m per square second to pry it off a Slayer's hand. That should
be how it should have been written.
It is a stupid directorial error if it were not in the shooting script. If
it were in the shooting script, then it is one of the silliest writing
errors I have ever witnessed in any martial arts movie. The writers should
be grounded and forced to watch Friday night Black Belt/Kung Fu Theater
every week for six months. See how fights are properly choreographed.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-EA7CCE...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <1161165726.6...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >
> > > I defy anyone to explain the First's plan in S7--or justify it.
> > >
> >
> > Seems pretty straightforward to me...
> >
> > Gur Svefg: V jvyy bireeha guvf Rnegu. Naq jura zl nezl bhgahzoref gur
> > uhznaf ba guvf Rnegu, gur fpnyrf jvyy gvc naq V jvyy or znqr syrfu.
> >
> > Zrffvat nebhaq jvgu Ohssl & sevraqf jnf whfg vgf irefvba bs univat sha.
> > Yvxr Natryhf.
>
>
V jbhyq gel Clyrn svefg, be fbzrjurer va gur fbhgurea cneg bs gur HF.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Mel" <melb...@uci.net> wrote in message
news:t56dnTx-3MtIW6vY...@uci.net...
It turned out that the majority of the minions of the First were secretly
working for the last Guardian. Some of the minions fooled the First into
unearthing the Scythe by sweet talking the First into thinking that Caleb
could easily pick up the Scythe from the stone. The First, who had not read
Malory, happily agreed, and mobilized its entire army to carry out the
excavation.
There, problem fixed. Bottom line, the First is a dumb-dumb.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote in message
news:5IlZg.389$qv1...@newsfe04.lga...
>
> You actually remember Caridad's name? Wow.
>
Quiz of the Day:
What's the name of that imaginary Potential who appeared in Xander's wet
dream?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 21: "End Of Days"
> > (or "And all this time I thought SM's handle was just random.")
> >
>
> > That weapon is certainly shiny and neat. That's about all I'm
> > going to say about it, but, shiny.
>
>
>
I think it is the same sound that deadlines make as they rush by my ears.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:8jbdj25is5fbuifc9...@4ax.com...
something like that ... paging Nimue ...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
i suppose the next lame suggestion is miss kitty fantacisco is busy
harrasing some shape changing witch like amy or wizard in rat form
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> It turned out that the majority of the minions of the First were secretly
> working for the last Guardian. Some of the minions fooled the First into
> unearthing the Scythe by sweet talking the First into thinking that Caleb
> could easily pick up the Scythe from the stone. The First, who had not read
> Malory, happily agreed, and mobilized its entire army to carry out the
> excavation.
the presumption is before caleb the scythe was buried inaccessible to buffy
alternatively all calebs work only resulted in knocking off
a part of an inch that wouldnt have stopped a slayer pulling it out
the scythe was only placed there within a few thousand years
while thay could accumulate some feet of soil
none of that would have turned to rock by then
barring a lava flow
so the scythe was no deeper in the stone than when the guardians left it
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> The silliest execution error in all of BtVS is the choreographical error of
> having Buffy drop the Scythe THREE times, and Caleb did not even bother to
> pick it up the first two times. As I have pointed out many times, if it were
> a mystical ninja, say, the one from AtS "IWRY", instead of Caleb, Buffy will
> be in a hundred pieces all over the place the first time she dropped the
> Scythe.
caleb didnt need the scythe to kill buffy
he just needed to hit her hard enough
buffy did need the scythe to cut caleb down to size
drifter
> In article <1161189735.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I think treating Angel as a straightforward character in
>> the story at this point would make little sense, and would only raise
>> the question: Why hasn't he been here all along, helping prepare for
>> the Apocalypse?
>
> Even if I hadn't been watching ANGEL, my response to that question
> would be, perhaps he's had a crisis or two of his own to deal with in
> L.A.
"A-P-O-C-A-L-Y-P-S-E-S, apocalypses."
hayes62
Lucky that he wasn't then.
> No Slayer should EVER EVER be so incompetent as to be able to drop the
> Scythe. The Scythe belongs to the Slayer, and there is an adhesive power
> between the Slayer's hand and the mystical Scythe that it would take several
> thousand kg m per square second to pry it off a Slayer's hand. That should
> be how it should have been written.
And the metaphor would be what? Buffy has a history of not sticking to
prophecies and failing to adhere to mystical rules. I think it would
be more in her character to take a hideously traditonal, obvious
Excaliber knock off and use it for something else entirely. She already
has weapons why should one more make the big difference?
> It is a stupid directorial error if it were not in the shooting script. If
> it were in the shooting script, then it is one of the silliest writing
> errors I have ever witnessed in any martial arts movie. The writers should
> be grounded and forced to watch Friday night Black Belt/Kung Fu Theater
> every week for six months. See how fights are properly choreographed.
>
> --
Since when was BtVS a martial arts movie? I'm more a fan of musicals
myself but it doesn't bother me that the Buffy cast stupidly fail to
burst into song at obvious moments. Except that once.
~H
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
The other one is Colleen.
rrh...@acme.com
Probably me. At least it is the sort of thing I might say. It also
has very nearly entirely nothing to do with the subject at hand. I
suspect that you have fallen for the straw man argument that the
descriptivist position is there are no mistakes in language. This is a
silly argument. Of course there are mistakes. The key is that
language can change, and therefore what constitutes a mistake can
change. If this sense of "scythe" were to catch on and become
widespread, then it would no longer be a mistake. But currently,
pointing at some random sharp object and saying "That is a scythe" is
merely mistaken.
Richard R. Hershberger
Malsperanza
Except that in BTVS, excluding that other show, this is THE Big One,
and is billed as such. For the show to be persuasive, it has to be
internally consistent. So, having as powerful and important a character
as Angel not be present is a gap that must be explained. I think the
show does a reasonable job of it, just as they manage to cover for the
fact that Tony Head was not available much in s7 by weakening his
character's influence. It's not ideal for the story, but it works.
~Mal
Malsperanza
hayes62 wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
> > > I'm not so wild about the chat with the ancient supernatural
> > > woman-power chick, despite a few good lines from Buffy, because, well,
> > > blah blah blah.
> >
> > Essentially her role here is the same as Whistler's in 'Becoming' (who
> > also came out of nowhere, just like Kendra happened to have the sword
> > for stopping Acathla). There are a lot of parallels bewteen S2 and S7
> > for those that look.
>
> Whistler was more successful at conveying useful information though. I
> think the Guardian was more like the Eye of Botox or the hamburger loa.
> They needed some kind of exposition to give the Scythe enough back
> story to pass muster and rather than have Giles read it out of one of
> his ancient texts they had Buffy vist an anoying Oracle. They really
> should have kept Doug Petrie away from all things Arthurian after the
> Knights that said Key.
I enjoyed Whistler thoroughly, which makes me wonder why I feel so
venemous about the White Witch. Well, Whistler showed up in small
snippets, and he never declared himself as either a Goodguy or a
Badguy. He remained ambiguous and intriguing (and funny), and he
dispensed his expository information in the course of pursuing his own
aims. He's a nice example of a classic Trickster character. Whereas
White Witch popped up, exposited, and then had her neck snapped, so as
to be out of the way of creating any further backstory or retcon
confusion.
I still don't see why the Scythe was necessary at all. I think there
was another reason for the White Witch to show up now, but it's
spoilerish, and still looks feeble and unnecessary to me.
> Caleb killing her quick kind of redeems it though
Very satisfying moment. Now, if Kennedy could have killed Caleb, and
then Buffy killed Kennedy, I'd feel the whole thing was worth it.
~Mal
kenm47
And a candle has been lit in the darkness, as a small part of the fog
of thrall dissipates.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> drifter wrote:
> > BTR1701 wrote:
> > > In article <1161189735.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think treating Angel as a straightforward character in
> > >> the story at this point would make little sense, and would only raise
> > >> the question: Why hasn't he been here all along, helping prepare for
> > >> the Apocalypse?
> > >
> > > Even if I hadn't been watching ANGEL, my response to that question
> > > would be, perhaps he's had a crisis or two of his own to deal with in
> > > L.A.
> >
> > "A-P-O-C-A-L-Y-P-S-E-S, apocalypses."
>
>
> Except that in BTVS, excluding that other show, this is THE Big One,
This is about the seventh "big one."
Potentially, the biggest big one of the series was season 5's, where the
entire universe was at stake.
Malsperanza
Which is bigger, though, the end of the universe or the end of the
show? ;-)
~Mal
BTR1701
> drifter wrote:
> > BTR1701 wrote:
> > > In article <1161189735.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think treating Angel as a straightforward character in
> > >> the story at this point would make little sense, and would only raise
> > >> the question: Why hasn't he been here all along, helping prepare for
> > >> the Apocalypse?
> > >
> > > Even if I hadn't been watching ANGEL, my response to that question
> > > would be, perhaps he's had a crisis or two of his own to deal with in
> > > L.A.
> >
> > "A-P-O-C-A-L-Y-P-S-E-S, apocalypses."
>
>
> Except that in BTVS, excluding that other show, this is THE Big One,
> and is billed as such.
Gung'f gur guvat. Lbh pna'g ernyyl rkpyhqr gur bgure fubj naq gur svany
onggyr ba NATRY znqr jung gur Svefg unq va zvaq frrz yvxr n zvabe
fphssyr.
BTR1701
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
Was his dream actually of the wet variety? 'Cause... eew.
BTR1701
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > No Slayer should EVER EVER be so incompetent as to be able to drop the
> > Scythe. The Scythe belongs to the Slayer, and there is an adhesive power
> > between the Slayer's hand and the mystical Scythe that it would take several
> > thousand kg m per square second to pry it off a Slayer's hand. That should
> > be how it should have been written.
>
> And the metaphor would be what? Buffy has a history of not sticking to
> prophecies and failing to adhere to mystical rules. I think it would
> be more in her character to take a hideously traditonal, obvious
> Excaliber knock off and use it for something else entirely. She already
> has weapons why should one more make the big difference?
Same reason that troll hammer made the big difference with Glory.
Some weapons are better than others.
BTR1701
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You left out a few steps in there:
Kennedy kills Caleb.
Spike kills Kennedy.**
Andrew kills Spike.
Then Buffy finishes off Andrew.
Ahhh... that's better.
**I actually don't have any ill feelings for Kennedy but she was already
in the mix so...
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-94AE3...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Ah yes. That. It's not only by far the worst part of the episode, it's
> > > probably one of my least favorite developments of the entire series. I
> > > disliked it that much. First of all, the whole thing felt way too
> > > contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
>
> > I don't have the same hatred for this part that some do, alhough I
> > certainly don't like it at all. But thinking about it more, it seems
> > incredibly pointless, doesn't it? What was wrong with the mythology
> > the show had already? You had ultimate evil, and humans fumbling along
>
> buffy is actually an adaptation of the bonnie and trots comics
I thought "Buffy" was a deconstruction of 15,000 years of womb worship
and sperm shunning?
Or is this just your "deep thought" of the week?
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article
> <mair_fheal-35530...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <12jd0m7...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> >
> > > contrived and illogical. The ancient temple was just sitting out there in
> > > the open this whole time? The so-called Guardian of the Scythe didn't
> >
> > its been there ever since at least reptile boy
> >
> > in the opening when the girl jumps the wall into the backlot cemetery
> > we see her run past the pyramid befoer the frat boys grab her again
> >
> > the only difference is now it has fence around it
>
> It's a different pyramid. This one's bigger than the old one.
Interestingly, the Angelus-Rosedale Cemetery in Los Angeles where they
shot a lot of the graveyard scenes in the series does indeed have
several pyramid mausoleums. You can see them here, along with some other
shots of the cemetery that might be familiar:
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Gurer jrer bayl n srj qbmra qrzbaf pbzvat nsgre Natry naq Pb., naq gurl
jrer whfg pbzvat nsgre Natry naq Pb. va ergnyvngvba sbe gurz gnxvat bhg
Oynpxgubea.
Gur Svefg unq na nezl bs gubhfnaqf bs Ghebx-una, naq jnf cynaavat ba
gnxvat gur jbeyq.
Clairel
--AOQ still rated this episode as "Good," and the previous one as
"Excellent."
I'm not crazy about the last-minute introduction of the Guardians
myself, but it doesn't prevent season 7 from being a superb season
overall.
AOQ is never going to dislike season 7 the way you do. Face it.
Actually, if you would read his reviews in a really receptive spirit,
you might get over some of your unreasonable dislike of season 7.
Especially his review of "Touched" and his subsequent comments on the
"Touched" thread.
Clairel
Michael Ikeda
news:btr1702-754F8D...@news.giganews.com:
>
> Interestingly, the Angelus-Rosedale Cemetery in Los Angeles
> where they shot a lot of the graveyard scenes in the series does
> indeed have several pyramid mausoleums.
Paging Willow. Paging Willow. Local cemetery needs a reensouling
spell...
I guess we're going to need a HUGE Orb of Thesulah...
:)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-9647C4...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1161268607.3...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > drifter wrote:
> > > > BTR1701 wrote:
> > > > > In article <1161189735.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I think treating Angel as a straightforward character in
> > > > >> the story at this point would make little sense, and would only raise
> > > > >> the question: Why hasn't he been here all along, helping prepare for
> > > > >> the Apocalypse?
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if I hadn't been watching ANGEL, my response to that question
> > > > > would be, perhaps he's had a crisis or two of his own to deal with in
> > > > > L.A.
> > > >
> > > > "A-P-O-C-A-L-Y-P-S-E-S, apocalypses."
> > >
> > >
> > > Except that in BTVS, excluding that other show, this is THE Big One,
> > > and is billed as such.
> >
> > Gung'f gur guvat. Lbh pna'g ernyyl rkpyhqr gur bgure fubj naq gur svany
> > onggyr ba NATRY znqr jung gur Svefg unq va zvaq frrz yvxr n zvabe
> > fphssyr.
>
> Gurer jrer bayl n srj qbmra qrzbaf pbzvat nsgre Natry naq Pb.,
Lbh pbhyq bayl frr n srj qbmra va gur *nyyrl*. Gur vzcyvpngvba jnf gung
gurl jrer whfg gur inathneq. Naq gurer jrer fbzr va gurer gung jrer
frireny fgbevrf gnyy. Cyhf gur sylvat barf. Fbzrguvat gryyf zr Ohssl'f
"chapu naq xvpx" nccebnpu jbhyqa'g unir qbar gur gevpx. (Uryy, gung
nccebnpu ernyyl fubhyqa'g unir jbexrq nyy gung jryy va "Pubfra", rvgure.
Jevgre'f svng fgevxrf ntnva.)
> naq gurl jrer whfg pbzvat nsgre Natry naq Pb. va ergnyvngvba
> sbe gurz gnxvat bhg Oynpxgubea.
Gung znl unir orra gurve tbny ohg vg'f abg yvxr na nezl bs tvnag qrzbaf
sylvat naq fgbzcvat nebhaq qbjagbja Y.N. yvxr Tbqmvyyn jbhyq tb
haabgvprq. YNCQ FJNG, Angvbany Thneq, erthyne nezl, nve sbepr... nyy
jbhyq trg vaibyirq erny dhvpx.
> The First had an army of thousands of Turok-han, and was planning on
> taking the world.
Taking the world with a couple thousand of those things that a
stronger-than-average girl can kill and that can't even come out in the
sunlight? Good luck with that. How exactly were all those baddies gonna
get across the oceans, anyway? Or hadn't The First thought that far
ahead?
Of course, as has been pointed out frequently of late, The First doesn't
seem to have really thought things through all that well in general.
Jeff Jacoby
> In article <dsample-E1FD3E...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> The First had an army of thousands of Turok-han, and was planning on
>> taking the world.
>
> Taking the world with a couple thousand of those things that a
> stronger-than-average girl can kill and that can't even come out in the
> sunlight? Good luck with that. How exactly were all those baddies gonna
> get across the oceans, anyway?
Walk.
No, seriously! :)
Jeff
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
V qvqa'g abgvpr nal gung jrer ynetre guna n ovt crefba. Jul fubhyq nal
bs gubfr betnavmngvbaf gnxr nal zber abgr bs gurz guna gurl nyernql qb?
Ab bar abgvprq gur qentba sylvat nebhaq Fhaalqnyr n srj lrnef ntb.
(Urpx, znlor vg'f gur fnzr bar, naq unf orra tbvat haabgvprq sbe lrnef.)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
you know when you attack people without dealing with the content
all youre doing is announcing you have lost it to the world
(now for the inevitable ikyabwai lame)
its not like you cant google shary flenniken
Opus the Penguin
> (V'yy unir lbh xabj gung Qnja qbrfa'g fpernz bapr qhevat gur svany
> onggyr.)
Uru. Gung jbhyq'ir orra n terng raqvat. Qnja frrf gur rivy ubeqr naq
lryyf "Trgbhgtrgbhgtrgbhg!!!" Naq gurl nyy pbire gurve rnef naq fnl,
"Furrfu! Bx!!! Jr jrer whfg yrnivat. Qb lbh unir gb fpernz yvxr gung?"
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Tb onpx naq ybbx ntnva. Urer V qvq vg sbe lbh. Ynfg cubgb va gur tebhc:
http://homepage.mac.com/btr1701/PhotoAlbum5.html
Gurer ner pyrneyl guerr fvmrf bs qrzbaf: uhzna fvmrq, tvnag-fvmrq, naq
zrtn-fvmrq.
> Jul fubhyq nal bs gubfr betnavmngvbaf gnxr nal zber abgr
> bs gurz guna gurl nyernql qb?
Ubjrire evqvphybhf vg vf gung qrzbaf yvxr Ybear pna jnyx qbja gur fgerrg
jvgubhg abgvpr, vg'f frireny beqref bs zntavghqr orlbaq evqvphybhf gung
fbzrguvat gur fvmr bs n Glenaabfnhe pbhyq yhzore qbja Jvyfuver jvgu ab
ernpgvba sebz gur cbchynpr. Ng yrnfg gurer'f gur "gurl cebonoyl whfg
guvax Ybear vf ba oernx sebz n zbivr fubbg" rkphfr sbe gur uhzna-fvmrq
qrzbaf. Vg jbhyq or xvaqn uneq gb hfr gung bar jvgu gur yhzorevat guvat
gung jnf ebnevat yvxr fbzrguvat bhg "Whenffvp Cnex", pneelvat n pyho nf
ovt nf n fgnaqneq gryrcubar cbyr, naq funxvat gur nyyrl jvgu rirel fgrc
vg gbbx.
> No one noticed the dragon flying around Sunnydale a few years ago.
How do you know?
BTR1701
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-AF4102...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <btr1702-DD1452...@news.giganews.com>,
> > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Gung znl unir orra gurve tbny ohg vg'f abg yvxr na nezl bs tvnag qrzbaf
> > > sylvat naq fgbzcvat nebhaq qbjagbja Y.N. yvxr Tbqmvyyn jbhyq tb
> > > haabgvprq. YNCQ FJNG, Angvbany Thneq, erthyne nezl, nve sbepr... nyy
> > > jbhyq trg vaibyirq erny dhvpx.
> >
> > V qvqa'g abgvpr nal gung jrer ynetre guna n ovt crefba.
>
> Tb onpx naq ybbx ntnva. Urer V qvq vg sbe lbh. Ynfg cubgb va gur tebhc:
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/btr1701/PhotoAlbum5.html
>
> Gurer ner pyrneyl guerr fvmrf bs qrzbaf: uhzna fvmrq, tvnag-fvmrq, naq
> zrtn-fvmrq.
Gur "qrzbaf" ng gur onpx whfg ybbx yvxr funqbjf.
kenm47
My dislike of Season 7 is perfectly reasonable, thank you very much.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
kenm47 wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > the Guardians?
> >
> of thrall dissipates.
I think it's time to give the "thrall" thing a rest. Those of us
participating in these discussions who like S6/7 have not been shy
about pointing it out when we think that a scene or a character or an
episode sucks, amidst the good stuff.
-AOQ
alphakitten
>>AOQ is never going to dislike season 7 the way you do. Face it.
>>
>>Actually, if you would read his reviews in a really receptive spirit,
>>you might get over some of your unreasonable dislike of season 7.
>>Especially his review of "Touched" and his subsequent comments on the
>>"Touched" thread.
>>
>>Clairel
>
>
> My dislike of Season 7 is perfectly reasonable, thank you very much.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
Certainly, it comes down to taste. However, your inability to recognize
differing tastes as being equally valid (ie the thrall crap) is
decidedly unreasonable and unbecoming.
~Angel
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-3C6F61...@news.giganews.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==