AOQ Review 6-8: "Smashed"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
(or "Cela s'est passé")
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: Turi Meyer
Let's talk about this one in pieces, since it's basically a few
loosely-intersecting character arcs. The show begins (and ends) with
Buffy and Spike, with the latter "unexpectedly" jumping in to join
a fight, and the former talking about how she'll never touch him
again, etc., etc. One guess as to whether or not she ends up going
back on that. This particular arc is looking more like a Möbius
strip.
There's some good to be found here. I'll talk about the Geek Trio
in their own paragraph, but while investigating their robbery, Spike
discovers that he can hurt Buffy without doing the same to himself, and
has enough patience for once to know that this fact is better kept
secret. That grin is about as evil as he's been in forever. And
sure enough, his first action upon given the chance to be a vampire
again is to try to go back to feeding on the Happy Meals. People can
debate about whether or not he'd have gone through with it, and how
much of the "I'm evil" stuff is to convince himself, but I feel
like that edge, and the notion that he really is a bonafide monster is
an important part of the Spike enigma. The eventual revelation that
it's about her rather than him is nicely plotted and played, and
could yield some widespread consequences beyond this. Or not.
But on the minus side, I'm not feeling the Buffy/Spike interactions
(other than the attempt to disguise his voice over the phone, which is
pretty damn funny), as he continues to try to get her to indulge in her
dirty side while she continues to deny any attraction. A lot of
continuing (or treading water) going on, as I've said. The denial
leads to some nastiness from her that seems out of place compared to,
say, "Fool For Love." The difference is that here she's
manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
thought that it meant more." At this point I'm not seeing how it
benefits the show to have a Buffy-as-Parker-Abrams" element. No
matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
doesn't feel like a natural change.
The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering whether
putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen. Here the
superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy argument, only with beating
each other up in the place of the more standard face-slaps or whatever;
since they can take it, it's about the same; way less interesting
than it should be given who and what it involves. My main problem is
that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
think that was really the intention.
The Geek Trio are worked in here. They've been the closest
equivalent we've had this year so far to a Big Bad. Going off on
that tangent, actually, early S6 could be seen as the best opportunity
to see what this very main-cast-driven series would be like without a
mega-villain. (One could I guess also make the same case for early S4
while the Initiative guys were still sinister rather than blatantly
evil.) And hey, it's been a pretty good year thus far. Anyway, most
of their scenes this week are enjoyable, although there's a definite
sense in some cases of good jokes that go on for just slightly too long
("get the freeze-ray out of here"). Great dynamic with their
"bargain" with Spike, and just the notions of cowing them by
threatening their collectables, and their attempt to ingratiate
themselves through British SF/F... alls I can say is, heh. Similar
reaction to the line "local authorities continue their investigation
into the robbery that left one man frozen solid."
I don't know if 1979 Boba Fett action figures exist, but if so,
it's quite a feat of preemptive marketing given that _The Empire
Strikes Back_ wasn't released until 1980. Also, it's very very
mildly noteworthy, but not surprising, that Spike has mentioned Yoda in
the past but has to read the nameplate to identify Mr. Fett.
Thirdly and perhaps most interestingly, we have Willow in the post-Tara
period, diving right back into more magic. The timing on the part in
which she mixes computers and sorcery is a cool visual and a well-timed
scene; the gag of having her pull out the computer helps deflate Buffy
and Xander's attempts at criticism. "Oh, for crying out loud.
This is bizarre. You're all, 'la la la!' with, with the magic, and the
not talking, like everything's normal, when we all know that Tara up
and left you and now everyone's scared to say anything to you. Except
me." We all could stand to be a little more like Anya.
I'm very pleased to have Amy finally human again; the show would've
felt somehow slightly unfinished if they'd left her as a rat. The
character herself hasn't stood out much for me in the past, but here
Allen fills her with nervous energy and twitchy mannerisms, showing her
quickly recovering from the more pronounced adjustment to be being
human again, but still not quite the same in the smaller ways. It'd
be tough to lose three years of life that way. But Amy also represents
the kind of person who's exactly wrong for Willow to be around right
now. This is, after all, someone who dabbled in magics beyond her
control, paid the price, and then immediately runs out to get back into
the game. Amy being the one to push her old friend to live it up seems
a little strange given that her idea of fun used to involve immobility
and brownies, but hey, Willow acts a little different than she did in
S1 too. The sequence in the Bronze goes a little long, but it's
worth watching to see the way things escalate. Willow's reluctant to
get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
or just not over Tara? Anything and anyone else is fair game, though,
and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
For reasons that I'm not going to get into, Mrs. Q. and I expect to
be using "how've you been?" "Rat. You?" for many years to
come.
Larry is firmly established as dead here. I understand some people are
still in denial?
I think I've mentioned it before, but for viewing purposes. I like
the spells in Latin (and Sumerian and whatever) much better than the
ones in rhyming English.
Meanwhile, good to see that Tara and Dawn are on good terms again.
"There was actually more of a lead-in when I practiced that at
home." That's all I've got on that topic.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Willow and the olive
So...
One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good
6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
8) "Smashed" - Decent]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> (or "Cela s'est passé")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
> I don't know if 1979 Boba Fett action figures exist, but if so,
> it's quite a feat of preemptive marketing given that The Empire
> Strikes Back wasn't released until 1980. Also, it's very very
> mildly noteworthy, but not surprising, that Spike has mentioned Yoda in
> the past but has to read the nameplate to identify Mr. Fett.
Yes, there was a 1979 Boba Fett action figure, released as part of the
pre-release marketing for "The Empire Strikes Back." They are quite
valuable to the collectors. And maybe Spike didn't see the third movie.
While he appears in TESB, Boba isn't named on screen until "Return of
the Jedi." (Boba was much more prominent in the marketing than he ever
was in the movies.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
beloved
. My main problem is
> that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end.
well, yeah, but, did you think they'd actually screw? Didn't that
surprise you? I think when I heard that zipper go down the first time
I watched my mouth actually dropped open in shock, lol.
Lord Usher
news:dsample-E4984E...@news.giganews.com:
> Yes, there was a 1979 Boba Fett action figure, released as part of the
> pre-release marketing for "The Empire Strikes Back." They are quite
> valuable to the collectors. And maybe Spike didn't see the third
> movie. While he appears in TESB, Boba isn't named on screen until
> "Return of the Jedi." (Boba was much more prominent in the marketing
> than he ever was in the movies.)
Or maybe Spike saw TESB and RotJ, found Boba Fett to be a total nonentity,
and quickly forgot about him, like most people who aren't crazy STAR WARS
fans. :)
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Captain Infinity
>Amy being the one to push her old friend to live it up seems
>a little strange given that her idea of fun used to involve immobility
>and brownies
Please explain this comment. Immobility and brownies?
**
Captain Infinity
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Damn. I don't know... when I heard that zipper and saw Spike's reaction
well, that was about the hottest damn thing that's ever graced my TV
screen. The PTC had a field day with this moment as well, because of
course they had to file a complaint to the "too hot for prime time"
Department at the FCC.
It's been the build up for what, three seasons now? And finally it
happens, and the couple bring a building down when they get together.
I don't think candles and flowers do a Spike and Buffy make.
>
> The Geek Trio are worked in here. They've been the closest
> equivalent we've had this year so far to a Big Bad. Going off on
> that tangent, actually, early S6 could be seen as the best opportunity
> to see what this very main-cast-driven series would be like without a
> mega-villain. (One could I guess also make the same case for early S4
> while the Initiative guys were still sinister rather than blatantly
> evil.) And hey, it's been a pretty good year thus far. Anyway, most
> of their scenes this week are enjoyable, although there's a definite
> sense in some cases of good jokes that go on for just slightly too long
> ("get the freeze-ray out of here"). Great dynamic with their
> "bargain" with Spike, and just the notions of cowing them by
> threatening their collectables, and their attempt to ingratiate
> themselves through British SF/F... alls I can say is, heh. Similar
> reaction to the line "local authorities continue their investigation
> into the robbery that left one man frozen solid."
"Help me out here Spock, I don't speak loser"
Also, the entire Boba Fett gag was priceless. "You are NOT coming back
from that!"
Amy is the last person Willow needs right now, I agree. And yes, that
bit at the Bronze - I'd go with the latter.
>
> For reasons that I'm not going to get into, Mrs. Q. and I expect to
> be using "how've you been?" "Rat. You?" for many years to
> come.
I also got a kick out of the Gatorade joke too.
>
> Larry is firmly established as dead here. I understand some people are
> still in denial?
>
> I think I've mentioned it before, but for viewing purposes. I like
> the spells in Latin (and Sumerian and whatever) much better than the
> ones in rhyming English.
>
> Meanwhile, good to see that Tara and Dawn are on good terms again.
> "There was actually more of a lead-in when I practiced that at
> home." That's all I've got on that topic.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Willow and the olive
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
This one gets a Good from me. And and Excellent for the ending.
cry...@panix.com
> review threads.
> The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering
> whether putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with
> all the associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to
> happen. Here the superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy
> argument, only with beating each other up in the place of the
> more standard face-slaps or whatever; since they can take it,
> it's about the same; way less interesting than it should be
> given who and what it involves. My main problem is that from
> the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well,
> admittedly, I thought the kissing would actually be the end.
> But the whole falling through the floor in the throes of
> passion... a bit much, isn't it? Just a bit. That might work
> as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't think that was really
> the intention.
No, but as a metaphor, it works wonderfully IMO. For me, this is
one of the season's most powerful scenes.
> The Geek Trio are worked in here. They've been the closest
> equivalent we've had this year so far to a Big Bad. Going off
> on that tangent, actually, early S6 could be seen as the best
> opportunity to see what this very main-cast-driven series would
> be like without a mega-villain. (One could I guess also make the
> same case for early S4 while the Initiative guys were still
> sinister rather than blatantly evil.) And hey, it's been a
> pretty good year thus far.
I'm glad you like them! A lot of people in this group really seem
to dislike the Trio, and that substantially weakens S6 for them.
This is my favorite season, even if it has a couple weak points.
> For reasons that I'm not going to get into, Mrs. Q. and I expect
> to be using "how've you been?" "Rat. You?" for many years to
> come.
I love that exchange.
> Meanwhile, good to see that Tara and Dawn are on good terms again.
> "There was actually more of a lead-in when I practiced that at
> home." That's all I've got on that topic.
Dawn-Tara scenes work surprisingly well. We get to see a side of
Tara we don't normally see, and Dawn is more endearing around her.
I don't tend to rate episodes myself, but what the hey: I'll call
this episode Good. It has Excellent bits (de-ratting and the
ending), but not enough to push it above Good overall.
--
-Crystal
burt...@hotmail.com
> There's some good to be found here. I'll talk about the Geek Trio
> in their own paragraph, but while investigating their robbery, Spike
> discovers that he can hurt Buffy without doing the same to himself, and
> has enough patience for once to know that this fact is better kept
> secret. That grin is about as evil as he's been in forever. And
> sure enough, his first action upon given the chance to be a vampire
> again is to try to go back to feeding on the Happy Meals. People can
> debate about whether or not he'd have gone through with it,
There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
> The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering whether
> putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
> associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen. Here the
> superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy argument, only with beating
> each other up in the place of the more standard face-slaps or whatever;
> since they can take it, it's about the same; way less interesting
> than it should be given who and what it involves. My main problem is
> that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
> thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> think that was really the intention.
Buffy's having sex with Spike as the house is falling down around them.
Hmm. Could be a metaphor here, do you think? I know it's a stretch.
jil...@hotmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
> tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
> It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
And Warren did confirm that whatever the chip was, it was in perfect
shape. We all know the chip only goes off when Spike's committed to
the act. Well, no. We all don't know that. It's just what we've seen
on the show. Or what I've seen on the show.
Stephen Tempest
>No
>matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
>hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
>is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
>doesn't feel like a natural change.
I think that's the point. Buffy's behaviour hasn't been exactly
'natural' ever since she clawed her way out of her own grave.
As for why Spike should be on the receiving end of such anger and
cruelty all of a sudden, don't forget one of the basic concepts of the
Buffyverse - when the accusations start flying, they usually reveal
far more about the person making them than the intended target...
Just a side note - it looked like Buffy was ready to talk to Willow
about Spike and her, but then got distracted when Amy appeared and
ended up saying nothing. Willow, of course, isn't telling anyone
about why Tara left her. So, lack of communication between the
Scoobies about important relationship issues. At least that part
hasn't changed a bit...
>My main problem is
>that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
>anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
>thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
>through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
>Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
>think that was really the intention.
Huh. I'm not a Spuffista, yet even I thought that was just about the
hottest scene in all six years of the show so far...
I mean, _really_. [/Buffybot]
>Willow's reluctant to
>get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
>or just not over Tara?
The second. For it to be the first, she'd have to admit that what she
did to Tara was actually *wrong*.
"Aw, whatsa matter, Amy? You lonely? We gotta get you a nice companion
rat that you can love and play with and grow attached to 'til it
leaves you for no good reason. Won't that be fun?"
Besides, Tara only left a week or so ago. That's hardly enough time
to forget and move on, even for someone who isn't as deeply into
denial as Willow is...
>For reasons that I'm not going to get into, Mrs. Q. and I expect to
>be using "how've you been?" "Rat. You?" for many years to
>come.
But not adding "Dead." "Huh." ...?
>I think I've mentioned it before, but for viewing purposes. I like
>the spells in Latin (and Sumerian and whatever) much better than the
>ones in rhyming English.
We have it on good authority that Willow's Italian pronunciation here
is appallingly bad, to the extent that a native speaker of the
language didn't even realise that's what she was speaking until she
saw a transcript.
The geek part of me notes that Willow's magical power just jumped to a
whole new level in this episode. In previous seasons, in order to
cast a spell Willow usually had to spend long hours in study, research
and experimentation. If the spell wasn't in her books, or there was
no-one else to teach it to her, she couldn't cast it.
Now, though, she apparently knows an enchantment that can bring her
the formula for any _other_ spell. A meta-spell. (From her
expression, it looked to me as if she'd learned the 'Reveal' spell for
some other purpose originally, then realised in this episode what else
it could do).
So now, the only limit on her power is the sheer raw magical energy
she needs to cast any spell she likes... and whether her skill is
enough to control it without it backfiring. Oh, and whether her moral
compass will teach her that casting spells isn't always the right
thing to do. *koff*koff*
>This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
>- Willow and the olive
"When I kissed you? You know I was thinking about Giles, right?"
"You know, I always wondered about you two."
"I keep expecting her to do, like, ratty stuff, licking her hands
clean or shredding newspaper or making little pellets in the corner."
"Let's definitely not leave her alone in the house too long."
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
>tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
>It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
I don't disagree. However, it seemed to take him quite a long time to
work himself up into a killing mood; like he was trying to convince
himself it was what he wanted to do.
So, soulless vampire, still evil. Still a killer. But not exactly
the gleeful bloodlust we'd have expected from a de-chipped Spike, was
it?
Stephen
Mel
Stephen Tempest wrote:
I agree he looked to be building himself up the moment, but the fact
remains, he tried to bite the girl and the only thing that stopped him
was the chip.
Plus, Buffy had just called him "an evil, disgusting thing." So if
that's what she really thought of him, why not go ahead an act like one?
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> (or "Cela s'est passé")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
>
>
> period, diving right back into more magic. The timing on the part in
> which she mixes computers and sorcery is a cool visual and a well-timed
> scene; the gag of having her pull out the computer helps deflate Buffy
> and Xander's attempts at criticism. "Oh, for crying out loud.
> This is bizarre. You're all, 'la la la!' with, with the magic, and the
> not talking, like everything's normal, when we all know that Tara up
> and left you and now everyone's scared to say anything to you. Except
> me." We all could stand to be a little more like Anya.
Especially since - at least, this time - she's absolutely *right*:
things are definitely *not* okay with Willow, who's so far up de Nile
she can see the headwaters.
>
> I'm very pleased to have Amy finally human again; the show would've
> felt somehow slightly unfinished if they'd left her as a rat. The
> character herself hasn't stood out much for me in the past, but here
> Allen fills her with nervous energy and twitchy mannerisms, showing her
> quickly recovering from the more pronounced adjustment to be being
> human again, but still not quite the same in the smaller ways. It'd
> be tough to lose three years of life that way. But Amy also represents
> the kind of person who's exactly wrong for Willow to be around right
> now. This is, after all, someone who dabbled in magics beyond her
> control, paid the price, and then immediately runs out to get back into
> the game.
Yeah, this does not look like a Good Thing...
> Amy being the one to push her old friend to live it up seems
> a little strange given that her idea of fun used to involve immobility
> and brownies, but hey, Willow acts a little different than she did in
> S1 too. The sequence in the Bronze goes a little long, but it's
> worth watching to see the way things escalate. Willow's reluctant to
> get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
> or just not over Tara?
At this point, my guess would be the latter.
> Anything and anyone else is fair game, though,
> and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
> mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
It's been all fucked-up for some time; remember when Willow used to
actually *avoid* letting people outside her circle of friends see her
using the magicks? Now, she's openly displaying her abilities by
playing pool in full view of the crowd. Without a c(l)ue.
>
> For reasons that I'm not going to get into, Mrs. Q. and I expect to
> be using "how've you been?" "Rat. You?" for many years to
> come.
It says a lot about Sunnydale that, while Buffy *knows* about Amy, and
therefore wouldn't be surprised by the answer, Buffy's response doesn't
even faze Amy, either.
>
> Larry is firmly established as dead here. I understand some people are
> still in denial?
Well, some people are still in denial that the Scoobies ever graduated
high school, so what're y'gonna do...?
>
> I think I've mentioned it before, but for viewing purposes. I like
> the spells in Latin (and Sumerian and whatever) much better than the
> ones in rhyming English.
Yeah, the upside to it, though, is that those of us who don't happen to
*speak* Sumerian actually know what's being said (and, of course, AH has
much less trouble pronouncing the English version.)
>
> Meanwhile, good to see that Tara and Dawn are on good terms again.
> "There was actually more of a lead-in when I practiced that at
> home." That's all I've got on that topic.
What? "Good God, that's a lot of shake!"
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Willow and the olive
Poor Willow. She did it to herself, and really deserves the heartache
*and* the lonelies, but I still feel bad for her.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> This particular arc is looking more like a Möbius
> strip.
Well that is pretty much the classic depressive cycle of
self-destructive behaviour. Going back to the well of "I just want to
feel", even when it disgusts is pretty textbook.
Being desperate to feel something - anything - would have been dangerous
enough had she been confiding in (say) a somewhat crappy but basically
gentle, albiet self-absorbed, 19th century poet (I mean, no depressive
deserves to be bored to death). To have the only real choice be a
ruthlessly exploitative, decidedly obsessed and inherently evil bottle
blond ain't gonna lead to fat grandchildren.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Amy being the one to push her old friend to live it up seems
> a little strange given that her idea of fun used to involve immobility
> and brownies,
Apart from when she was mind controlling the teachers.
And rather recklessly helping Xander with his spell.
And then even more recklessly ratting herself (remember how *angry* she
was?).
Clairel
--It's a reference to season 1, "The Witch." Willow and Amy talked
about hanging out, sitting around and eating brownies.
But in season 2 and 3, Amy already seemed a different, boldier, sassier
kind of person. No doubt not having her domineering mother around any
more was liberating for her.
Not that I think the harmful stunts she got up to in "Smashed" bode
well for her personality development. I don't.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
Just thinking about Amy's first appearance, in "[The] Witch."
WILLOW: But Amy's nice. We used to hang in Junior High. When her mom
would go on a broth kick, Amy'd come over to my house and we'd stuff
ourselves with brownies!
AMY: My dad is *so* impossible! He doesn't ever want me going
anywhere! He wants to spend total quantity time together. And I'm,
like, 'Dad, I can go out, it's perfectly safe!' But he's got all this
guilt about leaving me with my mom. And he's being a total pain.
BUFFY: You're loving it.
AMY: Every single minute. This Saturday night he wants to stay in and
make brownies. Well,
the brownies were my idea.
AMY: I'm just happy to have my body back. I'm thinking of getting fat.
BUFFY: Y'know, I hear that look's in for spring.
-AOQ
Clairel
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
> > tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
> > It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
>
> And Warren did confirm that whatever the chip was, it was in perfect
> shape. We all know the chip only goes off when Spike's committed to
> the act.
--Committed to the act, yes. But what act? Remember, the chip is
supposed to prevent all violence, not just lethal violence.
In order to test out whether the chip was still working, all Spike
really had to do was punch somebody in the nose (non-lethally), as he
did Tara in "Family." Or he could try for a non-lethal bite on
somebody's neck.
I don't feel as strongly about this now as I did four and a half years
ago, but I do think it's possible that Spike just wanted to test out
the chip, and would have stopped the biting and the draining of blood
at a point where the woman would have survived.
No matter what one believes about the possibilities for moral growth in
a soulless vampire in the Buffyverse, there is still the consideration
that Spike wanted to stay in Buffy's life (yes--despite her insults to
him, he hadn't given up on her, as we know!), and he couldn't very well
stay in her life if he was lethally preying on people in her town. I
tend to think that this pragmatic consideration alone, even if nothing
else, would have made Spike cut short the biting as soon as he had
ascertained the chip was no longer working. (That is, if it had been
no longer working.) A soulless Spike with a non-working chip would
still have been a Spike who wanted Buffy more than he wanted vampiric
predation.
So it's pretty silly for the penultimate post to say there's no debate
on the issue. Of course there is, and there has been ever since
November of 2001.
Clairel
Clairel
--Yeah, the sound of the zipper added a lot to that scene, I must say.
Every time I re-watch it, I find myself listening for that sound.
Having DVDs played through a really good stereo sound system really
enhances the effect, too.
Since it's pretty clear that AOQ is never going to give us the
satisfaction of raving about this all-time-top-hot scene with the
enthusiasm we would like, maybe we ought to be asking him what Mrs. AOQ
thought about it.
What about that, eh, AOQ?
Clairel
cry...@panix.com
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > I don't disagree. However, it seemed to take him quite a long
> > time to work himself up into a killing mood; like he was
> > trying to convince himself it was what he wanted to do.
> >
> > So, soulless vampire, still evil. Still a killer. But not
> > exactly the gleeful bloodlust we'd have expected from a
> > de-chipped Spike, was it?
>
> I agree he looked to be building himself up the moment, but the
> fact remains, he tried to bite the girl and the only thing that
> stopped him was the chip.
I think there's still room for debate: did he have to build
himself up to it because of the conditioning, or because he's
truly changed, even if only a little? Or are the two reasons
related?
It's clear, of course, that he is still a monster. But things are
not always black and white in the Buffyverse. Has Spike become a
shade of grey? (A very dark shade of grey, if so!)
> Plus, Buffy had just called him "an evil, disgusting thing." So
> if that's what she really thought of him, why not go ahead an
> act like one?
He does define himself in part by what Buffy thinks of him,
doesn't he? I never thought about it in those terms before.
--
-Crystal
Arbitrar Of Quality
> >My main problem is
> >that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> >anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
> >thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
> >through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> >Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> >think that was really the intention.
>
> Huh. I'm not a Spuffista, yet even I thought that was just about the
> hottest scene in all six years of the show so far...
>
> I mean, _really_. [/Buffybot]
Buffyverse sex scenes haven't done a huge deal for me, which is
interesting given all the tasty actors involved. It'll be more
worthwhile once everything's out of spoiler territory, but now I'm
curious what turns everyone on. Which sex scenes are the hottest for
you?
If I confine myself strictly to scenes that either involve sex or
clearly immediately precede sex, only a few jump out:
- The end of the "tea and crackers" scene from "I Will Remember You"
(#1 for me, easily)
- Xander and Faith, "The Zeppo" (probably #2, oddly)
- I don't even remember the episode ("Family?"), but the fantasy Spike
has about Buffy while he's drilling Harmony ("what're you thinking
about?")
Not sure where the orgasm spell from "Who Are You?" would fit in, if
it's eligable.
> >For reasons that I'm not going to get into, Mrs. Q. and I expect to
> >be using "how've you been?" "Rat. You?" for many years to
> >come.
>
> But not adding "Dead." "Huh." ...?
It's all about the rat.
>
> The geek part of me notes that Willow's magical power just jumped to a
> whole new level in this episode. In previous seasons, in order to
> cast a spell Willow usually had to spend long hours in study, research
> and experimentation. If the spell wasn't in her books, or there was
> no-one else to teach it to her, she couldn't cast it.
>
> Now, though, she apparently knows an enchantment that can bring her
> the formula for any _other_ spell. A meta-spell. (From her
> expression, it looked to me as if she'd learned the 'Reveal' spell for
> some other purpose originally, then realised in this episode what else
> it could do).
It's a big jump, or it could be that her power fluctuates according to
the demands of the script, but this show never does such things.
-AOQ
peachy ashie passion
Did you miss AOQ's next line where he said that?
lili...@gmail.com
>
> One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
Yeah, they could have dropped the Willow part and I would have been a
lot happier with it.
Lore
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> Buffyverse sex scenes haven't done a huge deal for me, which is
> interesting given all the tasty actors involved. It'll be more
> worthwhile once everything's out of spoiler territory, but now I'm
> curious what turns everyone on. Which sex scenes are the hottest for
> you?
The orgasm spell from "Who Are You?" Not sure exactly what that says
about me, being a) male and b) straight (or maybe that *is* what it says
about me...)
>
> If I confine myself strictly to scenes that either involve sex or
> clearly immediately precede sex, only a few jump out:
> - The end of the "tea and crackers" scene from "I Will Remember You"
> (#1 for me, easily)
> - Xander and Faith, "The Zeppo" (probably #2, oddly)
> - I don't even remember the episode ("Family?"), but the fantasy Spike
> has about Buffy while he's drilling Harmony ("what're you thinking
> about?")
>
> Not sure where the orgasm spell from "Who Are You?" would fit in, if
> it's eligable.
1) Right on top (heh-heh - he said "on top") and 2) if it's not, they
didn't get their point across...
Rowan Hawthorn
I wouldn't.
Clairel
--Well, this pretty much encapsulates my frustration with AOQ and his
reviews. I know there are people who are admirers of the AtS episode
"I Will Remember You," and its allegedly hot and/or romantic B/A
scenes. Frankly, I have a tendency to write off such people. So when
I saw the high rating that AOQ had given to that episode, and read his
enthusiastic comments that demonstrated real emotional involvement in
the B/A relationship that I have always found so distasteful, I really
had my doubts about AOQ.
And yet there were other reviews he wrote that were genuinely
insightful.
I just don't see how somebody can be an admirer of *both* IWRY and the
S/B interactions. One or the other, okay -- but both? (I leave aside
Faith and Xander as irrelevant. All I can say is that that scene in
"The Zeppo" never did anything for me on a personal level, though I can
see that it was an important development in Xander's life.)
Just for your information, AOQ, if you're reading this, there are some
people who find Spike/Drusilla scenes and Spike/Harmony scenes
(especially the one in "Harsh Light of Day") a real turn-on. Me, I
don't have any enthusiasm for scenes of Spike with anyone other than
Buffy -- though whenever Spike gets screentime with any woman, he's
always a pleasure to behold.
And if this has gotten your attention, AOQ, I would like to ask you
what you, at this point in your viewing of season 6, anticipate for the
S/B relationship. Now that they've done the deed, what next? And
another question: prior to viewing the end of "Smashed," did you ever
think it would go beyond just kissing? Did you anticipate carnal
consummation ever -- or this soon? I remember that back in autumn
2001, the things that took place in "Smashed" seemed very abrupt to
many viewers. We thought there'd be more of a build-up, and we didn't
think that anger and hatred would be what finally took Buffy over the
edge. Thoughts on that, AOQ?
Clairel
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, they could have dropped the Willow part and I would have been a
> > lot happier with it.
--What did you like about that part?
I could see what ME was trying to do with the thematic parallels
between what Buffy was going through and what Willow was going through.
I just didn't think the scenes of Willow and Amy in the Bronze were
well executed. They got really boring really fast.
Clairel
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> (or "Cela s'est passé")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
<snip>
>
But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> think that was really the intention.
Just a bit of Buffy trivia:
They actually cut the ending short for this episode. The original is
here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUs7yHcnrk if you're curious.
After this popped up on all the boards, I discovered that the only
disappointment I had with the ending of Smashed was that they trimmed it.
(Actually, I think I emailed a ton of people in this newsgroup that
ending back in the day. heh.)
>
<snip>
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
>>>
>>> Yeah, they could have dropped the Willow part and I would have been a
>>> lot happier with it.
>
> --What did you like about that part?
1. It showed where Willow was going with her issues (or not going,
depending on how you look at it.)
2. It was a break from the Spike show that made up a large portion of
the rest of the episode.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> --Well, this pretty much encapsulates my frustration with AOQ and his
> reviews. I know there are people who are admirers of the AtS episode
> "I Will Remember You," and its allegedly hot and/or romantic B/A
> scenes. Frankly, I have a tendency to write off such people. So when
> I saw the high rating that AOQ had given to that episode, and read his
> enthusiastic comments that demonstrated real emotional involvement in
> the B/A relationship that I have always found so distasteful, I really
> had my doubts about AOQ.
>
> And yet there were other reviews he wrote that were genuinely
> insightful.
Ah yes, the annoying habit of agreeing with you some of the time and
disagreeing other times rears its ugly head, huh?
> I just don't see how somebody can be an admirer of *both* IWRY and the
> S/B interactions. One or the other, okay -- but both?
People have a way of surprising you.
> And if this has gotten your attention, AOQ, I would like to ask you
> what you, at this point in your viewing of season 6, anticipate for the
> S/B relationship. Now that they've done the deed, what next? And
> another question: prior to viewing the end of "Smashed," did you ever
> think it would go beyond just kissing? Did you anticipate carnal
> consummation ever -- or this soon? I remember that back in autumn
> 2001, the things that took place in "Smashed" seemed very abrupt to
> many viewers. We thought there'd be more of a build-up, and we didn't
> think that anger and hatred would be what finally took Buffy over the
> edge. Thoughts on that, AOQ?
What's strange, and I may be alone here, is that I don't really see the
end of "Smashed" as a big deal. Relationships have been absolutely
loaded with sex in the later years of the show, for Buffy as well as
for everyone else. It's not too much of a leap for me from the kissing
in OMWF/TR to this; she wants to feel something, yes?
That's part of why I don't think this was too soon or anything, and why
it didn't resonate with me so much either. I still don't know the
answer to "where do we go from here?" since I don't really think we've
gone much of anywhere in the last two episodes.
-AOQ
BTR1701
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> I just don't see how somebody can be an admirer of *both* IWRY and the
> S/B interactions. One or the other, okay -- but both? (I leave aside
> Faith and Xander as irrelevant. All I can say is that that scene in
> "The Zeppo" never did anything for me on a personal level, though I can
> see that it was an important development in Xander's life.)
When Faith says "You up for it?" and "Don't worry, I'll steer you around
the curves,"-- well, that was a special moment indeed.
Apteryx
news:1155160043.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>There's some good to be found here. I'll talk about the Geek Trio
>in their own paragraph, but while investigating their robbery, Spike
>discovers that he can hurt Buffy without doing the same to himself, and
>has enough patience for once to know that this fact is better kept
>secret. That grin is about as evil as he's been in forever. And
>sure enough, his first action upon given the chance to be a vampire
>again is to try to go back to feeding on the Happy Meals. People can
>debate about whether or not he'd have gone through with it, and how
>much of the "I'm evil" stuff is to convince himself, but I feel
>like that edge, and the notion that he really is a bonafide monster is
>an important part of the Spike enigma.
Biting her neck was a pretty good clue to that. He's different in that
he now has to justify it to himself, but I never had any doubt that he
intended to kill.
>say, "Fool For Love." The difference is that here she's
>manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
>thought that it meant more."
I'd have said that at that point she was trying to convince herself of
that. She's never going to convince Spike.
>The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering whether
>putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
>associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen.
Just as well they didn't lose themselves in the throes of passion in
daytime :)
>("get the freeze-ray out of here"). Great dynamic with their
>"bargain" with Spike, and just the notions of cowing them by
>threatening their collectables, and their attempt to ingratiate
>themselves through British SF/F... alls I can say is, heh. Similar
>reaction to the line "local authorities continue their investigation
>into the robbery that left one man frozen solid."
Yep - Nerd Trio to the rescue of an otherwise weak episode :)
Though I don't quite know how Warren can be sure that Spike's chip is
working without knowing what it is doing when its working.
>S1 too. The sequence in the Bronze goes a little long, but it's
>worth watching to see the way things escalate. Willow's reluctant to
>get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
>or just not over Tara? Anything and anyone else is fair game, though,
>and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
>mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
It's definitely the latter. Willow in S5 was momentarily willing to
temporarily move everyone in the Bronze who wasn't a 15 year old girl to
another dimension, in a desperate attempt to find Dawn when she went
missing. But here she makes a sustained transmograpying attack on the
patrons, simply for her personal amusement. What would season 1 or 2
Buffy have done if she had walked into The Bronze and found a witch
doing that?
Guvf jnf gur fprar jurer, sbe zr, gur jevgref xvyyrq gur punenpgre bs
Jvyybj. Sebz urer ba, V jnf arire vagrerfgrq va jung gurl qvq jvgu ure.
Sbe zr, gur orfg rcfvbqrf sebz urer ba graq gb or gur eryngviryl
Jvyybj-yvgr barf (jvgu gur zvabe rkprcgvba bs Fnzr Gvzr, Fnzr Cynpr),
naq pregnvayl abg gur barf nqinapvat gur Jvyybj nep va gur erfg bs guvf
frnfba.
Naq gung'f n fnq guvat gb unccra gb n punenpgre jub va gur svefg unys bs
F2 jnf fb tbbq fur pbhyq znxr Vapn Zhzzl Tvey jbegu jngpuvat. Zhpu
fnqqre guna nal bs Ohssl'f qrnguf.
>So...
>One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
>AOQ rating: Decent
I agree with the summary, although we might disagree on which half -
though I guess we'd both keep the Nerd Trio. I'd also agree with Decent.
There's enough humour here from the Nerds and Buffy/Amy to keep it out
of Weak territory. For me, its the 117th best BtVS episode, 16th best in
season 6
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Clairel wrote:
> > Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> >> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
> >>>
> >>> Yeah, they could have dropped the Willow part and I would have been a
> >>> lot happier with it.
> >
> > --What did you like about that part?
>
> 1. It showed where Willow was going with her issues (or not going,
> depending on how you look at it.)
I don't think that they should have dropped the Willow part, but the way
they handled it was pretty ham-handed. They turned her into Willow the
Teenage Witch with all those silly spells with Amy in the Bronze.
Naq arkg jr unir Jvyybj gur penpx-zntvp juber.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <HNadneVkuZpfNUfZ...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Clairel wrote:
>>> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>>>> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> One-sentence summary: Could stand to lose about half of it.
>>>>> Yeah, they could have dropped the Willow part and I would have been a
>>>>> lot happier with it.
>>> --What did you like about that part?
>> 1. It showed where Willow was going with her issues (or not going,
>> depending on how you look at it.)
>
>
> I don't think that they should have dropped the Willow part, but the way
> they handled it was pretty ham-handed. They turned her into Willow the
> Teenage Witch with all those silly spells with Amy in the Bronze.
That was certainly over the top. I'd still rather have that then what
would most likely have filled the gap if it hadn't been there.
burt...@hotmail.com
Does it matter? Either way, that woman would have ended up dead without
the chip.
burt...@hotmail.com
Spike never needed Buffy's prompting to kill people before.
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 9: "Smashed"
> (or "Hot Damn!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
> There's some good to be found here. I'll talk about the Geek Trio
> in their own paragraph, but while investigating their robbery, Spike
> discovers that he can hurt Buffy without doing the same to himself, and
> has enough patience for once to know that this fact is better kept
> secret. That grin is about as evil as he's been in forever. And
> sure enough, his first action upon given the chance to be a vampire
> again is to try to go back to feeding on the Happy Meals. People can
> debate about whether or not he'd have gone through with it, and how
> much of the "I'm evil" stuff is to convince himself, but I feel
> like that edge, and the notion that he really is a bonafide monster is
> an important part of the Spike enigma. The eventual revelation that
> it's about her rather than him is nicely plotted and played, and
> could yield some widespread consequences beyond this. Or not.
This is the bit the Spike haters always jump on, shouting "Look! He's
evil!" To which the reply is of course "So?" I believe the writer
describes the scene as 'Does he want to bite the girl, or does he _want
to_ want to bite the girl?' He certainly isn't the carefree killing
machine he once was... actually the reason he does it is very... well
childish. For ages now Buffy has been on friendly terms ("You treat me
like a man...") and he's been being as good as he can. Now she turns
around and calls him evil, and just like a kid he goes off, all
petulant, "I'll show her evil!"
There is also the fact that he won't leave Buffy be. A lot of people
seem to think that this is him *deliberately* pestering her and
'dragging her down'. I think he is quite simply trying to understand
what on earth is going on. Like Anya in HLOD:
Anya : Relationship. What kind do we have. And what is it progressing
toward?
Xander : I ... Uh ... We have a relationship?
Anya : Yeah. We went to the prom.
Anya : So I can assume a standing Friday night date and a mutual
recognition as Prom night as our dating anniversary.
He's on human turf, and it's confusing. And Buffy really is sending out
mixed signals. Not the best thing to do to a vampire...
> But on the minus side, I'm not feeling the Buffy/Spike interactions
> (other than the attempt to disguise his voice over the phone, which is
> pretty damn funny), as he continues to try to get her to indulge in her
> dirty side while she continues to deny any attraction. A lot of
> continuing (or treading water) going on, as I've said. The denial
> leads to some nastiness from her that seems out of place compared to,
> say, "Fool For Love." The difference is that here she's
> manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
> thought that it meant more." At this point I'm not seeing how it
> benefits the show to have a Buffy-as-Parker-Abrams" element. No
> matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
> hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
> is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
> doesn't feel like a natural change.
Oh But Buffy has always been mean when she's hurting or forced into a
corner. Remember 'When She Was Bad'? There is a lot of bitchiness in
that girl. The thing is, it's not really Spike she's angry at. See I
think she has *a lot* of anger towards the Scoobies, but she can't
release that (remember that scene in 'Flooded' where Willow tried to
get her mad?) in any way. And more worrying, she finds herself
attracted to Spike. And - as a lot of people like to point out - Spike
is, for all his love, at heart an unrepentant killer. And what the hell
does it say about her that the only one she can stand to spend time
around is him? She is seeking out the company of a killer, rather than
those of her friends. She gets turned on by him... and with the
depression and the general disconnect that must be a terrifying
realisation. She's Buffy - the good girl - who loves Angel the noble
vampire, not Spike the Slayer killer. So when he keeps pushing the
issue she snaps and lashes out, and I believe it's a lot more to do
with her, than with him. She has to stop whatever it is - because 'it
is wrong'.
> The Geek Trio are worked in here. They've been the closest
> equivalent we've had this year so far to a Big Bad. Going off on
> that tangent, actually, early S6 could be seen as the best opportunity
> to see what this very main-cast-driven series would be like without a
> mega-villain. (One could I guess also make the same case for early S4
> while the Initiative guys were still sinister rather than blatantly
> evil.) And hey, it's been a pretty good year thus far. Anyway, most
> of their scenes this week are enjoyable, although there's a definite
> sense in some cases of good jokes that go on for just slightly too long
> ("get the freeze-ray out of here"). Great dynamic with their
> "bargain" with Spike, and just the notions of cowing them by
> threatening their collectables, and their attempt to ingratiate
> themselves through British SF/F... alls I can say is, heh. Similar
> reaction to the line "local authorities continue their investigation
> into the robbery that left one man frozen solid."
I love all The Trio scenes. And notice how quickly Warren folded.
Mostly though, we also got to see the difference between someone
*actually* bad, and the nerds who are just playing at it.
> Thirdly and perhaps most interestingly, we have Willow in the post-Tara
> period, diving right back into more magic. The timing on the part in
> which she mixes computers and sorcery is a cool visual and a well-timed
> scene; the gag of having her pull out the computer helps deflate Buffy
> and Xander's attempts at criticism. "Oh, for crying out loud.
> This is bizarre. You're all, 'la la la!' with, with the magic, and the
> not talking, like everything's normal, when we all know that Tara up
> and left you and now everyone's scared to say anything to you. Except
> me." We all could stand to be a little more like Anya.
Definitely. But here we get intersecting story lines - Buffy gets hit
hard by Xander's words, and identifies with Willow's predicament, and
therefore doesn't act like she probably should, when it comes to her
friend. It's obvious that her and Willow's problems are vastly
different, but the issues get confused, and not acted on...
> But Amy also represents
> the kind of person who's exactly wrong for Willow to be around right
> now. This is, after all, someone who dabbled in magics beyond her
> control, paid the price, and then immediately runs out to get back into
> the game. Amy being the one to push her old friend to live it up seems
> a little strange given that her idea of fun used to involve immobility
> and brownies, but hey, Willow acts a little different than she did in
> S1 too. The sequence in the Bronze goes a little long, but it's
> worth watching to see the way things escalate. Willow's reluctant to
> get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
> or just not over Tara? Anything and anyone else is fair game, though,
> and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
> mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
Oh yeah. And Willow's "I can have fun! Heck I deserve some fun!"
desperate to show that she's not the loser she was...
> The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering whether
> putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
> associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen. Here the
> superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy argument, only with beating
> each other up in the place of the more standard face-slaps or whatever;
> since they can take it, it's about the same; way less interesting
> than it should be given who and what it involves. My main problem is
> that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
> thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> think that was really the intention.
Comedy??? I'm not going to go into the hotness, because that is
obviously a personal response, but to me this is a gut-punch of a
scene, only matched by the end of 'Five by Five'. It leaves me shaken
every time. But before I go more into that, I'm going to indulge in
some continuity (that *might* have been quoted already, but I haven't
had time to read all the posts). From 'Who Are You':
Faith-in-Buffy: I could have anything. Anyone. Even you, Spike. I
could ride you at a gallop until your legs buckled and your eyes rolled
up. I've got muscles you've never even dreamed of. I could squeeze you
until you popped like warm champagne, and you'd beg me to hurt you just
a little bit more. And you know why I don't? Because it's wrong.
Spike: I get this chip out, you and me are gonna have a confrontation.
F-in-B: Count on it.
And who could have foreseen back then that this would actually happen?
And with Buffy, rather than Faith (who was always the one for a spot of
rough)... Mostly the scene just makes me go 'Damn!' But my friend Anna
has formulated what I wanted to say better than I could, in one of her
Spike & Buffy essays. So I'll leave you with this:
~~~~~~~~~~
Let's start with Smashed. Buffy finds out she "came back wrong". I said
already, there's a nice theory that says that at that point she ceases
to care, she gives up, and that's why she sleeps with Spike. We're back
to Fool For Love.
But there's more to it than that. Deep down, I think Spike tells her
what she wants to hear. Because if she "came back wrong", suddenly
there's something real and tangible to explain away the way she's been
feeling and acting. It gets her off the hook. She doesn't have to worry
about _not_ sleeping with Spike any more, because at that point she
ceases to have anything to prove.
You see, all this time she's been _not_ sleeping with Spike - and I
really think she's explicitly conscious of that fact - she's been
trying to prove something to herself. Is it a spur-of-the-moment
decision, something that would never have crossed her mind before? I
can't believe that. I think it's long been at the back of her mind, but
as long as she keeps it there she can make herself believe that she's
doing OK, that she retains control on some level, that the life she's
living is good enough to be worth it. The point she finds out she "came
back wrong" she's set free from having to sustain that belief. And it
also brings out the other thing that's been lurking at the back of her
mind - the suspicion that she can't make herself belong in the
Scoobies' world any more, try as she might. When she kisses Spike she's
trying to find somewhere to belong as much as she's trying to lose
herself, I think.
So here's Buffy, liberated and lost, and Spike, bewildered and
desperate to make a difference to her any way he can.
It's so raw, and stark, and primal. And I love it for daring to have
been everything it ought to have been. If you're going to resolve
sexual tension that long-simmering and that exciting then you have to
do it in a way that brings the house down. Of course you do. It's a
preposterous, heart-breaking, exultant Hallelujah.
And the walls crumble. The walls Spike's put up around his demon, the
walls Buffy's put up to keep in a reality she remembers but can't find
in anyone else. I watch, spellbound, every time, as they feed off each
other's desperation, need bleeding into need, clinging to each other
every which way they know how.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Hyett
>
>Buffyverse sex scenes haven't done a huge deal for me, which is
>interesting given all the tasty actors involved. It'll be more
>worthwhile once everything's out of spoiler territory, but now I'm
>curious what turns everyone on. Which sex scenes are the hottest for
>you?
Given that it's a family show, and therefore nothing really interesting
can be seen - none of them.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Paul Hyett
>In article <1155160043.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
>
>Yes, there was a 1979 Boba Fett action figure, released as part of the
>pre-release marketing for "The Empire Strikes Back." They are quite
>valuable to the collectors. And maybe Spike didn't see the third movie.
>While he appears in TESB, Boba isn't named on screen until "Return of
>the Jedi." (Boba was much more prominent in the marketing than he ever
>was in the movies.)
Clearly, since I don't remember the character at all!
jil...@hotmail.com
Clairel wrote:
> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
> > > tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
> > > It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
> >
> > And Warren did confirm that whatever the chip was, it was in perfect
> > shape. We all know the chip only goes off when Spike's committed to
> > the act.
>
> --Committed to the act, yes. But what act? Remember, the chip is
> supposed to prevent all violence, not just lethal violence.
Aside from that, we've already talked about how the chip has thoroughly
cowed Spike's nature. Well, his nature as a sadistic murdering vampire
who takes humans apart with happy enthusiasm. So another reason he
might have for the delay and babble before attacking is that he is
instinctively cringing. Believing the chip is not working anymore is
conscious. His subconscious still expects agony, and that was
delivered when he tried.
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Clairel wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > And yet there were other reviews he wrote that were genuinely
> > insightful.
>
> Ah yes, the annoying habit of agreeing with you some of the time and
> disagreeing other times rears its ugly head, huh?
Oh, I always remember the time when I'd read some article or post
somewhere about James Marsters saying he'd initially auditioned to play
a cowboy or Western-type vampire ( I thought maybe one of the Gorch
brothers). Clairel really laid into me for not believing her instantly
when she said it never happened. *thinks about the posts* Clairel,
are you a woman? Sometimes the name on your post....
When Spike first appeared on the show, I thought he must have been some
Southern gentleman before being sired. Marsters hadn't yet developed
his accent enough to suppress his drawl. At that time, I knew nothing
about James Marsters.
Elisi
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Clairel wrote:
> > > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > And yet there were other reviews he wrote that were genuinely
> > > insightful.
> >
> > Ah yes, the annoying habit of agreeing with you some of the time and
> > disagreeing other times rears its ugly head, huh?
>
> Oh, I always remember the time when I'd read some article or post
> somewhere about James Marsters saying he'd initially auditioned to play
> a cowboy or Western-type vampire ( I thought maybe one of the Gorch
> brothers). Clairel really laid into me for not believing her instantly
> when she said it never happened. *thinks about the posts* Clairel,
> are you a woman? Sometimes the name on your post....
Oh that's true enough, in that they were considering making _Spike_
Southern, so apparently JM auditioned for the role with various
accents.
And yes is English was... less than stellar in S2. Although never as
bad as Angel's Irish...
George W Harris
Kinda makes you think he's changed, doesn't it?
Oh, wait, this is you.
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
<p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
He's the guy who took frozen Han Solo away at
the end of TESB, among other things.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
> associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen. Here the
> superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy argument, only with beating
depressed people will sometimes do things like take a knife
and cut their flesh
sometimes its practice for a suicide attempt
sometimes its not suicidal but to form any kind of connection to life
the blood and pain prove youre still alive even if you feel dead
so perhaps its not romantic comedy but tragedy
> thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> think that was really the intention.
its just a jump to the left
and then a step to the right
with your hands on your hips
you pull his zipper down
but its the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane
lets do the house smashed again
lets do the house smashed again
lets do the house smashed again
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>
> It's all about the rat.
and the rat has the cheese
the rat has the cheese
hi-ho the derryy-o
the rat has the cheese
Rincewind
>
> Buffyverse sex scenes haven't done a huge deal for me, which is
> interesting given all the tasty actors involved. It'll be more
> worthwhile once everything's out of spoiler territory, but now I'm
> curious what turns everyone on. Which sex scenes are the hottest for
> you?
>
> If I confine myself strictly to scenes that either involve sex or
> clearly immediately precede sex, only a few jump out:
> - The end of the "tea and crackers" scene from "I Will Remember You"
> (#1 for me, easily)
> - Xander and Faith, "The Zeppo" (probably #2, oddly)
> - I don't even remember the episode ("Family?"), but the fantasy Spike
> has about Buffy while he's drilling Harmony ("what're you thinking
> about?")
For me the hottest scene ever in the buffyverse does not involve actual sex:
it's the Faith-in-Buffy's-body and Spike scene at the Bronze in Who Are You.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
DRUSILLA: I'm not really crazy, I've just been faking it to get away with
this accent.
Ari
Elisi wrote:
> This is the bit the Spike haters always jump on, shouting "Look! He's
> evil!" To which the reply is of course "So?" I believe the writer
> describes the scene as 'Does he want to bite the girl, or does he _want
> to_ want to bite the girl?' He certainly isn't the carefree killing
> machine he once was... actually the reason he does it is very... well
> childish. For ages now Buffy has been on friendly terms ("You treat me
> like a man...") and he's been being as good as he can. Now she turns
> around and calls him evil, and just like a kid he goes off, all
> petulant, "I'll show her evil!"
Why do you assume that it's just Spike haters who think that he was
psyching himself up because it's been so long for him, not because his
heart's not really in it? And I also have a so for you too. So what if
he's being childish? That's really nothing new. IMO, using immaturity
as an excuse does not work. That kind of self-centeredness and
petulance combined with a lack of conscience, typified by the evil
child murderer archtype, there's something extremely creepy about that.
BTW, I say pfft to AOQ's ho-hum reaction to that last scene. Those two
are so fucking hot together. If JM and SMG ever did a porno together, I
don't care how much I'd have to pay, I am getting myself a tape. There
is chemistry and then there is CHEMISTRY! :PP
Elisi
Ari wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
> > This is the bit the Spike haters always jump on, shouting "Look! He's
> > evil!" To which the reply is of course "So?" I believe the writer
> > describes the scene as 'Does he want to bite the girl, or does he _want
> > to_ want to bite the girl?' He certainly isn't the carefree killing
> > machine he once was... actually the reason he does it is very... well
> > childish. For ages now Buffy has been on friendly terms ("You treat me
> > like a man...") and he's been being as good as he can. Now she turns
> > around and calls him evil, and just like a kid he goes off, all
> > petulant, "I'll show her evil!"
>
> Why do you assume that it's just Spike haters who think that he was
> psyching himself up because it's been so long for him, not because his
> heart's not really in it? And I also have a so for you too. So what if
> he's being childish? That's really nothing new. IMO, using immaturity
> as an excuse does not work. That kind of self-centeredness and
> petulance combined with a lack of conscience, typified by the evil
> child murderer archtype, there's something extremely creepy about that.
Oh I didn't mean it like that! Well I did, sort of, but it's not like
it *needs* pointing out that he's evil. That bit is obvious. What I
meant was that it is continually held up as 'proof' that he's evil and
hasn't changed, which just strikes me as beside the point. We can see
the change in him, in the fact that he hesitates, but also the fact
that he's still evil when he goes through with it - I mean he's been
murdering people for more than a century and he doesn't feel bad about
it at all.
I guess an analogy for the chip would be if someone could only be fed
through a tube, and then finally thought he could get an actual three
course meal again. It's easy to see the temptation...
> BTW, I say pfft to AOQ's ho-hum reaction to that last scene. Those two
> are so fucking hot together. If JM and SMG ever did a porno together, I
> don't care how much I'd have to pay, I am getting myself a tape. There
> is chemistry and then there is CHEMISTRY! :PP
Hey, there were a lot of rumours at the time... ;)
shuggie
> Ari wrote:
> > Elisi wrote:
> > > This is the bit the Spike haters always jump on, shouting "Look! He's
> > > evil!" To which the reply is of course "So?" I believe the writer
> > > describes the scene as 'Does he want to bite the girl, or does he _want
> > > to_ want to bite the girl?' He certainly isn't the carefree killing
> > > machine he once was... actually the reason he does it is very... well
> > > childish. For ages now Buffy has been on friendly terms ("You treat me
> > > like a man...") and he's been being as good as he can. Now she turns
> > > around and calls him evil, and just like a kid he goes off, all
> > > petulant, "I'll show her evil!"
> >
> > Why do you assume that it's just Spike haters who think that he was
> > psyching himself up because it's been so long for him, not because his
> > heart's not really in it? And I also have a so for you too. So what if
> > he's being childish? That's really nothing new. IMO, using immaturity
> > as an excuse does not work. That kind of self-centeredness and
> > petulance combined with a lack of conscience, typified by the evil
> > child murderer archtype, there's something extremely creepy about that.
>
> Oh I didn't mean it like that! Well I did, sort of, but it's not like
> it *needs* pointing out that he's evil. That bit is obvious.
Oh how quickly we forget! That bit is not so obvious it that it wasn't
hotly contested for months.
> What I
> meant was that it is continually held up as 'proof' that he's evil and
> hasn't changed, which just strikes me as beside the point.
It's not beside the point because at the time there were a whole bunch
of people convinced Spike was no longer evil. He'd been (or at least
was being) 'redeemed', he was on the 'hero's journey'. His love for
Buffy, his protection of Dawn - this proved he was now 'good'.
> We can see
> the change in him, in the fact that he hesitates, but also the fact
> that he's still evil when he goes through with it - I mean he's been
> murdering people for more than a century and he doesn't feel bad about
> it at all.
>
The fact that you can say that so easily means that you're not the
person that needs to have "this act is evil" pointed out to you. But
trust me there were many who did. They inferred huge amounts from the
slight delay in Spike biting because otherwise the whole ediface of
their belief in Spike's redemption crumbles. This was a consistent
pattern with the so-called Redemptionists - their whole argument was
based on how things were played but any direct evidence (e.g.
established mythology, dialogue or actions to the contrary) had to be
explained away. The more obvious the evidence the more convoluted the
explanations became. Occam's razor got seriously blunted, broken and
then thrown completely out the window.
Meanwhile people like myself - who always liked the character of Spike,
who enjoyed him and what he brought to the show - get characterised as
"Spike haters" for holding onto the mythology the show has explicitly
and clearly given - vampire = human + demon - soul = evil. I even
argued back then that I'd be quite happy to see a "redemption story"
provided the necessary adjustments were made to the mythology. Or give
Spike a soul. Or make up some techno-mystical stuff related to the
chip. Whatever - the point is that until they'd explicitly changed them
we assume that they're still playing under the existing rules which
means Spike: still evil.
What's amusing to me is how obvious it is that ME kept throwing in
little reminders. They were aware that in playing the love story so
strongly in S5 some viewers had got the wrong idea (like no one evil
ever fell in love before). So they have things like Spike chuckling at
the demons trashing Sunnydale in Bargaining and this scene.
So I agree with you that it's obvious - to me - that Spike is still
evil and it doesn't need to be pointed out - to me - that he's an
unrepentant killer. But if you think that no-one ever needed that
pointing out then either you weren't around in this group during S5 &
S6 or you've forgotten a lot.
shuggie
> The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering whether
> putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
> associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen. Here the
> superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy argument, only with beating
> each other up in the place of the more standard face-slaps or whatever;
> since they can take it, it's about the same; way less interesting
> than it should be given who and what it involves. My main problem is
> that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
> thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> think that was really the intention.
It was a bit over the top but sometimes I wonder if it was under-done
for its purpose. I mean you have the most anticipated coupling in the
show's history take place whilst the house they're in is literally
falling down around them - in a show that's not unknown for throwing in
the odd metaphor. And what do we get? Everyone's talking about how hot
the scene is. Well ok yes there's chemistry between the actors. I
certainly believe in the passion of the characters. But any 'heat' I
might be getting from the scene is drowned out by Joss shouting "Hey
everybody - see this relationship - it's a disaster waiting to happen -
it's fundamentally unsound - the walls are going to come crashing down
around their ears"
Elisi
Aaah yes, the redemptionistas! Since I didn't become aware of fandom
until after the show had finished, I never knew about all the heated
discussions re. the perceived goodness of Spike - I was just watching
this amazing show! :)
I love Spike, and this is very much because of what they did with the
character - how 'good' can you make someone inherently evil? At what
point will he fall - or not? See it's amazing that he's willing to die
for Dawn, and yet he couldn't give a toss about any other young girl...
it's all about the shades of grey.
(I'd *love* to discuss this further, but sadly have no time!)
vague disclaimer
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Buffyverse sex scenes haven't done a huge deal for me, which is
> > interesting given all the tasty actors involved. It'll be more
> > worthwhile once everything's out of spoiler territory, but now I'm
> > curious what turns everyone on. Which sex scenes are the hottest for
> > you?
> >
> > If I confine myself strictly to scenes that either involve sex or
> > clearly immediately precede sex, only a few jump out:
> > - The end of the "tea and crackers" scene from "I Will Remember You"
> > (#1 for me, easily)
> > - Xander and Faith, "The Zeppo" (probably #2, oddly)
> > - I don't even remember the episode ("Family?"), but the fantasy Spike
> > has about Buffy while he's drilling Harmony ("what're you thinking
> > about?")
>
> For me the hottest scene ever in the buffyverse does not involve actual sex:
> it's the Faith-in-Buffy's-body and Spike scene at the Bronze in Who Are You.
Hmmmm. Warm champagne.
*pop*
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> (or "Cela s'est pass?")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
.
"Responsible people are always so concerned with being good all
the time that when they finally get a taste of being bad, they can't
get enough. It's like all -- kablooey."
--Anya
> There's some good to be found here. I'll talk about the Geek Trio
> in their own paragraph, but while investigating their robbery, Spike
> discovers that he can hurt Buffy without doing the same to himself, and
> has enough patience for once to know that this fact is better kept
> secret. That grin is about as evil as he's been in forever. And
> sure enough, his first action upon given the chance to be a vampire
> again is to try to go back to feeding on the Happy Meals. People can
> debate about whether or not he'd have gone through with it, and how
> much of the "I'm evil" stuff is to convince himself, but I feel
> like that edge, and the notion that he really is a bonafide monster is
> an important part of the Spike enigma.
Spike's whole "I'm evil" speech seems to be more venting about how Buffy
perceives him, and how that affects his self-image, than about working
himself up for the biting himself. Did he take so long to bite because he
was conflicted? Reluctant to kill again? Conditioned by his chip? Or
was it just because he *had* to make this speech? Or because he just
isn't all that interested in biting anymore, a new obsession having
supplanted it? Anyway, I don't see any on-screen evidence that he
wouldn't have gone through with it, if he could have.
> dirty side while she continues to deny any attraction. A lot of
> continuing (or treading water) going on, as I've said. The denial
> leads to some nastiness from her that seems out of place compared to,
> say, "Fool For Love." The difference is that here she's
> manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
> thought that it meant more." At this point I'm not seeing how it
> benefits the show to have a Buffy-as-Parker-Abrams" element. No
> matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
> hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
> is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
> doesn't feel like a natural change.
I partly agree; but here are two points in partial defense of Buffy's
"cruelty." First, she's dealing with a guy who has refused all polite
requests to back off; a slightly crueler approach may be unusual for
Buffy, but it's not unjustified in the circumstances. Second, I don't
think Buffy has done to Spike anything like what Parker did to her.
Parker deliberately gave Buffy the wrong idea to get her into bed, whereas
when she kissed Spike Buffy just wasn't thinking about his feelings at
all. She was callous and thoughtless, but Parker was deliberately
manipulative (which is much worse IMO).
> But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
Can we say that this is the moment Buffy Summers hit bottom?
I'm not even close to being a Spuffista, but I still think the final scene
was kinda hot. However, it was not in the slightest romantic, nor did it
feel like a positive step for Buffy, nor did it seem likely to lead to
future happiness. In fact the whole thing feels fairly ominous.
> ("get the freeze-ray out of here"). Great dynamic with their
> "bargain" with Spike, and just the notions of cowing them by
> threatening their collectables, and their attempt to ingratiate
> themselves through British SF/F... alls I can say is, heh.
I love Spike's slightly desperate "WARREN!"
> I'm very pleased to have Amy finally human again; the show would've
> felt somehow slightly unfinished if they'd left her as a rat.
The way Willow de-rats Amy is easily my least favorite part of Smashed.
I hate it when magic looks too easy. This was also the problem with my
second-least favorite part, Willow and Amy's magic binge at the Bronze.
Powerful magic should require elaborate rituals, tapping into external
sources of power, or at least a single moment's concentration! Allowing
the witches to do almost anything with a wave of the hand may fit the
fairy tale definition of magic, but it just doesn't feel right for the
Buffyverse. That way lies Bewitched.
> or just not over Tara? Anything and anyone else is fair game, though,
> and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
> mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
Maybe. And note the lack of a real resolution to this scene. Where do
Amy and Willow go after they decide it's too early to go home yet?
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
Buffy trying to cover for Spike's call by saying he wanted to look for the
monster, which of course she ... um ... refused to do. It's not the line
so much as the look on her face as she says it.
Dumb, unsuccessful joke: Xander not realizing he's reading a D&D manual.
You'd think such a big comic book and horror movie fan would also have a
nodding acquaintance with D&D.
> Meanwhile, good to see that Tara and Dawn are on good terms again.
> "There was actually more of a lead-in when I practiced that at
> home." That's all I've got on that topic.
I liked Dawn's slightly too obvious attempt to keep Tara at home until
Willow arrives ("Ha! Talking cat!"), and the way Tara realizes what's
happening but plays along.
> AOQ rating: Decent
I agree. (V hfrq gb guvax frnfba fvk'f jrnx zvqqyr crevbq fgnegrq jvgu
Fznfurq, ohg nsgre trggvat gur QIQf, V qrpvqrq gung vg ernyyl fgnegrq jvgu
Jerpxrq. Fznfurq jnfa'g fb onq.)
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Elisi
> For me the hottest scene ever in the buffyverse does not involve actual sex:
> it's the Faith-in-Buffy's-body and Spike scene at the Bronze in Who Are You.
It obviously made an impression on Spike too! And wasn't it jolly nice
of Buffy to follow through on Faith's promise? *g*
rrh...@acme.com
Lord Usher wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in
> news:dsample-E4984E...@news.giganews.com:
>
> > Yes, there was a 1979 Boba Fett action figure, released as part of the
> > pre-release marketing for "The Empire Strikes Back." They are quite
> > valuable to the collectors. And maybe Spike didn't see the third
> > movie. While he appears in TESB, Boba isn't named on screen until
> > "Return of the Jedi." (Boba was much more prominent in the marketing
> > than he ever was in the movies.)
>
> and quickly forgot about him, like most people who aren't crazy STAR WARS
> fans. :)
I have always taken the Boba Fett thing as a group identity code
signal. For those of us who merely watched the movies, perhaps even
several times, but didn't enter into Star Wars as our subculture of
choice, Boba Fett was a kind of cool but clearly tertiary character. I
gather that he was more prominent in the various novelizations, comic
books, etc., but I have no personal knowledge of this. Hence the
fetishization of Fett: the mere fact of doing so places one in the
cult of the Holy Trilogy, seperating one from the casual dabblers.
This all makes Spike pretty well adjusted. You have to work pretty
hard to be completely unaware of Star Wars. Spike clearly was familiar
with it on a reasonably normal level, but not on a Cower Mortals level.
Good for him.
Richard R. Hershberger
burt...@hotmail.com
George W Harris wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2006 23:27:54 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> :Mel wrote:
> :> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> :>
> :> > burt...@hotmail.com writes:
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >>There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
> :> >>tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
> :> >>It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
> :> >
> :> >
> :> > I don't disagree. However, it seemed to take him quite a long time to
> :> > work himself up into a killing mood; like he was trying to convince
> :> > himself it was what he wanted to do.
> :> >
> :> > So, soulless vampire, still evil. Still a killer. But not exactly
> :> > the gleeful bloodlust we'd have expected from a de-chipped Spike, was
> :> > it?
> :> >
> :> > Stephen
> :>
> :>
> :> I agree he looked to be building himself up the moment, but the fact
> :> remains, he tried to bite the girl and the only thing that stopped him
> :> was the chip.
> :>
> :> Plus, Buffy had just called him "an evil, disgusting thing." So if
> :> that's what she really thought of him, why not go ahead an act like one?
> :
> :Spike never needed Buffy's prompting to kill people before.
>
> Kinda makes you think he's changed, doesn't it?
> Oh, wait, this is you.
Um, no, the point was that he didn't need it here either.
And however he may have changed, Spike is still a serial killer at
heart, as he proves here.
William George Ferguson
<l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>In article <1155160043.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This particular arc is looking more like a Möbius
>> strip.
>
>Well that is pretty much the classic depressive cycle of
>self-destructive behaviour. Going back to the well of "I just want to
>feel", even when it disgusts is pretty textbook.
>
>Being desperate to feel something - anything - would have been dangerous
>enough had she been confiding in (say) a somewhat crappy but basically
>gentle, albiet self-absorbed, 19th century poet (I mean, no depressive
>deserves to be bored to death). To have the only real choice be a
>ruthlessly exploitative, decidedly obsessed and inherently evil bottle
>blond ain't gonna lead to fat grandchildren.
"I never saw her do it
I only saw the scars
I never could imagine
What could make her go that far
I wonder, was she driven
By a desperate need to feel
To find if she was really living
To discover if her life was real
Or was it that the pain
Slicing through her like a knife
Was easier to take than the emptiness of life
Had a strange sense of drama
Caught her inside a role
Or was she trying to cauterize the chancres on her soul
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know
Her passion was her pain"
(Harry Chapin: Burning Herself)
--
"Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and
beat Sean Connery over the head with it!"
-The Other Guy (you know, Tucker's brother)
George W Harris
:> :> Plus, Buffy had just called him "an evil, disgusting thing." So if
:> :> that's what she really thought of him, why not go ahead an act like one?
:> :
:> :Spike never needed Buffy's prompting to kill people before.
:>
:> Kinda makes you think he's changed, doesn't it?
:> Oh, wait, this is you.
:
:Um, no, the point was that he didn't need it here either.
How do you know that? She did goad him into it,
so how can you say he didn't need that?
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
William George Ferguson
>>worth watching to see the way things escalate. Willow's reluctant to
>>get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
>>and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
>>mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
"Apteryx" <a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>It's definitely the latter. Willow in S5 was momentarily willing to
>temporarily move everyone in the Bronze who wasn't a 15 year old girl to
>another dimension, in a desperate attempt to find Dawn when she went
>missing. But here she makes a sustained transmograpying attack on the
>patrons, simply for her personal amusement. What would season 1 or 2
>Buffy have done if she had walked into The Bronze and found a witch
>doing that?
Trg rirel fdhner vapu bs ure nff xvpxrq?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
burt...@hotmail.com
> On 10 Aug 2006 08:56:33 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> :> :> Plus, Buffy had just called him "an evil, disgusting thing." So if
> :> :> that's what she really thought of him, why not go ahead an act like one?
> :> :
> :> :Spike never needed Buffy's prompting to kill people before.
> :>
> :> Kinda makes you think he's changed, doesn't it?
> :> Oh, wait, this is you.
> :
> :Um, no, the point was that he didn't need it here either.
>
> How do you know that? She did goad him into it,
> so how can you say he didn't need that?
Spike's primary motivation for trying to kill that girl was that he
thought the chip had stopped working. All else was secondary.
Rowan Hawthorn
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
>>> S1 too. The sequence in the Bronze goes a little long, but it's
>>> worth watching to see the way things escalate. Willow's reluctant to
>>> get Amy conjure up a dance partner for her - avoidance of mind-rape,
>>> or just not over Tara? Anything and anyone else is fair game, though,
>>> and each viewer can decide when the transition point is between simple
>>> mischevious fun and fucked-up. Or is it all the latter, really?
>
> "Apteryx" <a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> It's definitely the latter. Willow in S5 was momentarily willing to
>> temporarily move everyone in the Bronze who wasn't a 15 year old girl to
>> another dimension, in a desperate attempt to find Dawn when she went
>> missing. But here she makes a sustained transmograpying attack on the
>> patrons, simply for her personal amusement. What would season 1 or 2
>> Buffy have done if she had walked into The Bronze and found a witch
>> doing that?
>
> Trg rirel fdhner vapu bs ure nff xvpxrq?
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
Quite all right, if you hadn't, I'd have been forced to...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Paul Hyett
>:>While he appears in TESB, Boba isn't named on screen until "Return of
>:>the Jedi." (Boba was much more prominent in the marketing than he ever
>:>was in the movies.)
>:
>:Clearly, since I don't remember the character at all!
>
> He's the guy who took frozen Han Solo away at
>the end of TESB, among other things.
Ah, thanks.
Elisi
Only according to you.
Transcript:
SPIKE: That's right, you should scream.
She tries to get away but he moves to intercept her. She looks scared.
SPIKE: Creature of the night here, yeah? (indicating himself) Some
people forget that.
He advances on the woman. She backs away, shaking her head fearfully,
backs up against a wall.
WOMAN: Please.
SPIKE: She thinks I'm housebroken. She forgot who she's dealing with.
WOMAN: Anything you want, please-
SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed
to be too? 'Cause I'm not. (pacing back and forth) I know what I am.
I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared) I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer. (moves closer to her) That's what I
do. I kill. And, yeah, maybe it's been a long time, but ... it's not
like you forget how.
He gets up very close to the woman, who is panting fearfully.
SPIKE: You just ... do it. (nervously) And now I can, again, all right?
So here goes.
He morphs into vamp face. The woman screams.
SPIKE: This might hurt a little.
~~~~~~
The important thing is as much 'why' as 'what'. Ignore 'why' and what's
the point of watching anything? (except Friends and suchlike)
burt...@hotmail.com
Saying that Spike only tried to kill this woman because Buffy called
him a monster is way too close to blaming Buffy for his act of
attempted murder. If the chip actually had stopped working and Spike
had killed this woman, that would in no way have been Buffy's fault.
Spike is responsible for his own actions.
Elisi
Oh absolutely. But his reasons were mixed.
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Saying that Spike only tried to kill this woman because Buffy called
> > him a monster is way too close to blaming Buffy for his act of
> > attempted murder. If the chip actually had stopped working and Spike
> > had killed this woman, that would in no way have been Buffy's fault.
> >
> > Spike is responsible for his own actions.
>
> Oh absolutely. But his reasons were mixed.
Well, I can believe that, actually. But in real life, people who commit
murder often have many reasons for it, and (if their guilt can be
proven) we still put them in prison for doing so.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> What's amusing to me is how obvious it is that ME kept throwing in
> little reminders. They were aware that in playing the love story so
> strongly in S5 some viewers had got the wrong idea (like no one evil
> ever fell in love before). So they have things like Spike chuckling at
> the demons trashing Sunnydale in Bargaining and this scene.
There were reminders aplenty throughout S5 too, of course. I think
most of us who like "Fool For Love" and "Crush" would agree that they
wouldn't work the way they do if Spike weren't, well, Spike.
As an outsider, let me just say that the die-hard wing of the
"Redemptionists" seem like they would've been incredibly irritating.
And I'm going to hypothesize that some of the people participating in
these discussions today (you know who you are) have never quite
recovered from attempts to talk to them. Thankfully, it doesn't seem
like there're any Redemptionists, or at least not the extreme squealing
unreasoning variety, among the core group of posters now.
-AOQ
Stephen Tempest
>As an outsider, let me just say that the die-hard wing of the
>"Redemptionists" seem like they would've been incredibly irritating.
>And I'm going to hypothesize that some of the people participating in
>these discussions today (you know who you are) have never quite
>recovered from attempts to talk to them. Thankfully, it doesn't seem
>like there're any Redemptionists, or at least not the extreme squealing
>unreasoning variety, among the core group of posters now.
Well, the core posters have seen the entire series now, so they know
how Spike's story ends. Back then, they were just guessing, and
hoping it would go the way they wanted...
Stephen
Henry Hartmann
Elisi wrote:
> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > Clairel wrote:
> > > > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > > And yet there were other reviews he wrote that were genuinely
> > > > insightful.
> > >
> > > Ah yes, the annoying habit of agreeing with you some of the time and
> > > disagreeing other times rears its ugly head, huh?
> >
> > Oh, I always remember the time when I'd read some article or post
> > somewhere about James Marsters saying he'd initially auditioned to play
> > a cowboy or Western-type vampire ( I thought maybe one of the Gorch
> > brothers). Clairel really laid into me for not believing her instantly
> > when she said it never happened. *thinks about the posts* Clairel,
> > are you a woman? Sometimes the name on your post....
>
> Oh that's true enough, in that they were considering making _Spike_
> Southern, so apparently JM auditioned for the role with various
> accents.
--Right. I don't remember "laying into" anybody about this issue (it
must not have been a memorable incident for me), but I am quite certain
that the two alternatives ME gave Marsters when they had him read for
the role were Southern Gentleman and Brit. They never had him read for
the role as a cowboy type with a Western twang. I don't know where
that idea came from.
I suppose it's possible that some of the Southern drawn from the
audition crept into Marsters's first few actual episodes playing Spike,
though I don't hear it myself. What I do hear in School Hard and the
episodes following is an actor who's not totally comfortable with his
accent. In School Hard especially, there are moments when it sounds
very mannered and artificial.
By the time of "Becoming," though, he has it down perfectly. And that
is season 2, albeit the very end of season 2. Marsters may have had
other moments that equaled his performance in "Becoming," but he was
never better than he was in "Becoming." I just rewatched that episode
and was blown away by it all over again!
> And yes is English was... less than stellar in S2. Although never as
> bad as Angel's Irish...
--Agreed.
Clairel
Mike Zeares
Clairel wrote:
>
> --Well, this pretty much encapsulates my frustration with AOQ and his
> reviews. I know there are people who are admirers of the AtS episode
> "I Will Remember You," and its allegedly hot and/or romantic B/A
> scenes. Frankly, I have a tendency to write off such people. So when
> I saw the high rating that AOQ had given to that episode, and read his
> enthusiastic comments that demonstrated real emotional involvement in
> the B/A relationship that I have always found so distasteful, I really
> had my doubts about AOQ.
Well, this pretty much encapsulates my frustration with online fandom.
I know there are people who write off other people because they aren't
in complete lockstep on every opinon. Frankly, I have a tendency to
write off such people.
A person's holding a different opinion does not invalidate your
opinion. A review that doesn't gush over the scenes you want gushed
over is not therefore a bad review.
I once attended a fan gathering that included: a die-hard B/A fan, a
huge Riley fan, several hardcore Spuffy fans, and one guy (me) who
actually kind of liked Marti Noxon. We all got along fabulously.
Because we were all Buffy fans. Can't we all just get along?
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
Henry Hartmann
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Clairel wrote:
>
> > --Well, this pretty much encapsulates my frustration with AOQ and his
> > reviews. I know there are people who are admirers of the AtS episode
> > "I Will Remember You," and its allegedly hot and/or romantic B/A
> > scenes. Frankly, I have a tendency to write off such people. So when
> > I saw the high rating that AOQ had given to that episode, and read his
> > enthusiastic comments that demonstrated real emotional involvement in
> > the B/A relationship that I have always found so distasteful, I really
> > had my doubts about AOQ.
> >
> > insightful.
>
> Ah yes, the annoying habit of agreeing with you some of the time and
> disagreeing other times rears its ugly head, huh?
>
> > S/B interactions. One or the other, okay -- but both?
>
> People have a way of surprising you.
--Hey, that's not an explanation! Seriously, I would like to hear how
it is that you can be so receptive to what's going on between Buffy and
Spike, and yet you also seemed to sympathize with the whole Buffy/Angel
thing, and you even seemed to take a friendly interest in Riley when he
was Buffy's boyfriend. (Maybe "receptive" isn't the right word, but I
just mean you aren't sputtering with fury the way so many people were
back in 2001: the S/B relationship was VERY controversial at the time,
but you seem to have a sort of Oz-like serenity about it, which is
unusual.) Is it really all the same to you who Buffy's with? Me, I
can't watch scenes with her and Angel, or her and Riley, without
getting physically nauseous.
As for your notion that complete carnal knowledge isn't all that much
different from kissing, and so the developments of "Smashed" aren't all
that earth-shaking, well, that is unique. Ask yourself this: back in
season 5 with the episode "Intervention," when the Scoobies thought the
Buffybot was really Buffy, do you think their reaction to the idea of
Buffy merely kissing Spike (and no more) would have been as horrified
as their reaction was to the boinkage that they believed was going on?
And at this point, in season 6, if Amy hadn't interrupted Buffy's
attempt to confide in Willow, and the attempt had actually succeeded,
with Buffy telling Willow she had had several encounters with Spike
that included kissing, don't you think Willow's reaction would have
been much more mild and measured than the kind of reaction she would
have if Buffy were to confide in her now (after the end of "Smashed")?
I just don't see how you can say "Well, there has been a lot of sex
going on generally on this show for the past few seasons" as if that
means nothing is shocking or dramatic any more. True, these aren't
high school kids or nervous virgins any more. But they aren't jaded
and casually promiscuous either.
Clairel
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> As an outsider, let me just say that the die-hard wing of the
> "Redemptionists" seem like they would've been incredibly irritating.
> And I'm going to hypothesize that some of the people participating in
> these discussions today (you know who you are) have never quite
> recovered from attempts to talk to them. Thankfully, it doesn't seem
> like there're any Redemptionists, or at least not the extreme squealing
> unreasoning variety, among the core group of posters now.
Die-hard wings of any fandom tend to be incredibly irritating and go
beyond the tolerance of reasonable people. I was posting on the
Fanforum Roswell board (shut up) when the infamous Dreamer faction got
started. It was all hugs and puppies at first, mostly schmoopy pics of
the Lizbot and Max. Then Tess was introduced, and the Dreamers became
completely psychotic. A lot of these groups end up starting their own
"underground" discussion boards (partly because they get banned from
the more general boards), where they spend most of their time
denouncing all other fans/boards. Occasionally they mount trolling
raids on other boards. At least one of the Redemptionista groups got
like that (right about this time in S6, in fact), but there were other
Buffy factions that went off the deep end too. They're probably still
out there, seething. They're really good at seething.
This newsgroup didn't really see a lot of the worst of it, because if
there's one thing this kind of fan can't stand, it's a forum where
different opinions are tolerated. Or just exist. The resemblance to
religious extremists is left as an exercise for the reader. Or
armchair psychologist.
-- Mike Zeares
George W Harris
:> The important thing is as much 'why' as 'what'. Ignore 'why' and what's
:> the point of watching anything? (except Friends and suchlike)
:
:Saying that Spike only tried to kill this woman because Buffy called
:him a monster is way too close to blaming Buffy for his act of
:attempted murder. If the chip actually had stopped working and Spike
:had killed this woman, that would in no way have been Buffy's fault.
:
:Spike is responsible for his own actions.
You're arguing with a straw man. Nobody's saying
Spike isn't responsible, we're saying Spike no longer has
the innate, irresistable urge to kill. It's only an external
stimulus that drives him to the emotional state he now
needs to kill. That doesn't make him any less responsible,
or any less evil, but it does make him *different*.
vague disclaimer
I think you may be the sanest person on Usenet.
Can't find an mp3 of that anywhere - it's not on UK iTunes or even
allofmp3.
burt...@hotmail.com
> On 10 Aug 2006 11:43:21 -0700, burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> :> The important thing is as much 'why' as 'what'. Ignore 'why' and what's
> :> the point of watching anything? (except Friends and suchlike)
> :
> :Saying that Spike only tried to kill this woman because Buffy called
> :him a monster is way too close to blaming Buffy for his act of
> :attempted murder. If the chip actually had stopped working and Spike
> :had killed this woman, that would in no way have been Buffy's fault.
> :
> :Spike is responsible for his own actions.
>
> You're arguing with a straw man.
Notice that I said it's close to blaming Buffy for his act of attempted
murder. I didn't say that the person I was responding to was actually
blaming Buffy for it, since I don't know whether or not that's what
they were arguing.
> Nobody's saying
> Spike isn't responsible, we're saying Spike no longer has
> the innate, irresistable urge to kill.
Spike never had an "irresistable" urge to kill, even back in season 2.
Nor did any other vampire we saw, for that matter. Take
"Dopplegangland," for instance - look at the scene where Vamp Willow
left her vampire henchmen holding the humans captive at the Bronze. She
told them not to kill the people there, and they obeyed, because they
were afraid of her. If vampires really did have an irresistable urge to
kill, those people wouldn't have lasted two minutes after Vamp Willow
left.
Vampires could always refrain from killing people if they wanted to -
it's just that (most of the time) they didn't want to.
> It's only an external
> stimulus that drives him to the emotional state he now
> needs to kill. That doesn't make him any less responsible,
> or any less evil, but it does make him *different*.
I don't see how. Spike never chose to stop killing people - he was
forced to stop by the chip. And when he thinks the chip has stopped
working, the first thing he does is go try to kill someone again.
He's still a serial killer.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
I don't have a lot to add to the discussion, which is going in its
usual directions. I just wanted to say that I've always been impressed
with the job Drew Greenberg did. ME had a habit of tossing episodes
like this at new writers. Greenberg had to handle two major character
plot developments while moving the Nerd plot along, and integrate it
all together into something approaching coherence. All in all, I think
he did a great job. A lot happens in "Smashed," which helps keep it
interesting.
> Let's talk about this one in pieces, since it's basically a few
> loosely-intersecting character arcs. The show begins (and ends) with
> Buffy and Spike, with the latter "unexpectedly" jumping in to join
> a fight, and the former talking about how she'll never touch him
> again, etc., etc. One guess as to whether or not she ends up going
> back on that. This particular arc is looking more like a Möbius
> strip.
Shades of her on again-off again relationship with Angel. Vamps really
spin this girl's head.
> But on the minus side, I'm not feeling the Buffy/Spike interactions
> (other than the attempt to disguise his voice over the phone, which is
> pretty damn funny), as he continues to try to get her to indulge in her
> dirty side while she continues to deny any attraction. A lot of
> continuing (or treading water) going on, as I've said. The denial
> leads to some nastiness from her that seems out of place compared to,
> say, "Fool For Love." The difference is that here she's
> manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
> thought that it meant more." At this point I'm not seeing how it
> benefits the show to have a Buffy-as-Parker-Abrams" element. No
> matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
> hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
> is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
> doesn't feel like a natural change.
Oh, I think it feels perfectly natural. I just don't like it very
much. Except from a "watching a train wreck" perspective, which can be
fun if you're in the right mood. Anyway, as for "wanton cruelty,"
don't forget WSWB. Torturing vampires isn't a new thing for her. You
don't really want to run up against Buffy when she's depressed or
pissed off. Or both.
On the other hand, the question of how this helps the show is a valid
one.
> The episode-closing scene made me spend too much time pondering whether
> putting a vampire in a crumbling wooden structure with all the
> associated pointy bits was an accident waiting to happen. Here the
> superheroes have a basic romantic-comedy argument, only with beating
> each other up in the place of the more standard face-slaps or whatever;
> since they can take it, it's about the same; way less interesting
> than it should be given who and what it involves. My main problem is
> that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
> anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
> thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
> think that was really the intention.
My reaction to it varies according to my mood. I can have both the
"that's hawt!" reaction and the "ha ha, silly show!" reaction.
Sometimes at the same time. Cognitive dissonance can be a way of life.
Plus it pisses off people who want you to choose sides, which is
always fun. I think my initial reaction to it was "this is so fucked
up! Awesome!"
-- Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Anyway, as for "wanton cruelty,"
> don't forget WSWB. Torturing vampires isn't a new thing for her. You
> don't really want to run up against Buffy when she's depressed or
> pissed off. Or both.
Everyone keeps bringing that up. Remember how that was the exception
to normal Buffy behavior (here I'm thinking of the bit-ca phase;
torturing the vampire was a means to an end)? How it stood out as
something distinctly unlike her? Well, so does her behavior in
"Smashed," but I'm not convinced yet that it's an isolated incident
attributable to her mood since the show hasn't told us yet whether it
knows what it's doing.
> On the other hand, the question of how this helps the show is a valid
> one.
Depending on future events, it might be wotrth revisiting.
> My reaction to it varies according to my mood. I can have both the
> "that's hawt!" reaction and the "ha ha, silly show!" reaction.
> Sometimes at the same time. Cognitive dissonance can be a way of life.
> Plus it pisses off people who want you to choose sides, which is
> always fun. I think my initial reaction to it was "this is so fucked
> up! Awesome!"
Go forth and be the middle ground.
-AOQ
Mel
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>>My main problem is
>>>that from the moment the scene started, there was no doubt in my (or
>>>anyone's) mind that they would kiss at the end. Well, admittedly, I
>>>thought the kissing would actually be the end. But the whole falling
>>>through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
>>>Just a bit. That might work as absurdist comedy, but somehow I don't
>>>think that was really the intention.
>>
>>Huh. I'm not a Spuffista, yet even I thought that was just about the
>>hottest scene in all six years of the show so far...
>>
>>I mean, _really_. [/Buffybot]
>
>
This scene between Buffy and Spike reminds me of the Angel and Darla sex
in Reprise. Another example of perfect despair.
Mel
peachy ashie passion
I think the VAST majority of hte viewing audience are with AOQ. I
know I am.
We just keep our heads down to keep them from being chopped off by
the rabid maniacs on all sides.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Seriously, I would like to hear how
> it is that you can be so receptive to what's going on between Buffy and
> Spike, and yet you also seemed to sympathize with the whole Buffy/Angel
> thing, and you even seemed to take a friendly interest in Riley when he
> was Buffy's boyfriend. (Maybe "receptive" isn't the right word, but I
> just mean you aren't sputtering with fury the way so many people were
> back in 2001: the S/B relationship was VERY controversial at the time,
> but you seem to have a sort of Oz-like serenity about it, which is
> unusual.)
Hmm, it feeds my ego to think of myself as Oz-like.
First of all, we do have to have the caveat that my situation isn't
quite like that of a fan at the time of airing. I've known since
before Spike was introduced that he and Buffy would get together in
some capacity. I've had plenty of time to get mentally prepared for
that.
Beyond that, though, your implied premise that it's unfathomable to
be able to appreciate both the B/A and B/S relationships is in turn
inexplicable to me. Hey, why not? Are we meant to believe that Buffy
has one and only one person with whom she can ever be? Bullshit,
obviously. At different points in someone's life, different things
can seem right. Despite not liking Angel much at first, S2 won me over
with the way something that started with simple sparkage, curiosity,
and "forbidden" nature developed into such a deep trust (which
could be betrayed, naturally, because Joss Whedon is not a nice man).
In S3, it never ceased to entertain to see those two, almost certainly
the two most interesting personalities in the Buffyverse, develop more
layers and grow together. Now Buffy's very much changed from those
days, to the point where a B/S pairing is something that could actually
realistically happen within the show itself, not just awful fanfic.
Although I like both characters quite a bit, this isn't the match I
would have chosen, but I'm aware that both the fact and the nature of
this relationship makes sense, so why not watch it with an open mind?
And sure enough, it was used to great effect in OMWF (although I
haven't been wild about the aftermath so far).
That ties in to the other issue: the type of viewer one wants to be.
One thing I have tried my hardest not to do with these reviews is to
become the kind of "fan" who believes that his way is the only
correct way for the show to play out. Like others, I have no patience
at all with that mindset; Joss and Marti will tell the story that
*they* are interested in telling, to the best of their abilities.
Especially given that the series is now set in stone, things will play
out the way they play out. Some things will work for me and some
won't, but it makes much more sense to see whether I'm able to
enjoy each episode, regardless of whether or not it's a path I would
have gone with.
> Is it really all the same to you who Buffy's with? Me, I
> can't watch scenes with her and Angel, or her and Riley, without
> getting physically nauseous.
Turning the questioning around, is that because of a particular problem
with the way those interactions play out, or have you decided in
advance, so to speak, that they're Not Right for Buffy? If the latter,
does that prevent you from appreciating the good scenes that came out
of these relationships (not very many in the case of Riley, admittedly,
but they're there if you're "receptive" enough)?
> As for your notion that complete carnal knowledge isn't all that much
> different from kissing, and so the developments of "Smashed" aren't all
> that earth-shaking, well, that is unique. [snip]
> And at this point, in season 6, if Amy hadn't interrupted Buffy's
> attempt to confide in Willow, and the attempt had actually succeeded,
> with Buffy telling Willow she had had several encounters with Spike
> that included kissing, don't you think Willow's reaction would have
> been much more mild and measured than the kind of reaction she would
> have if Buffy were to confide in her now (after the end of "Smashed")?
I do think so, but I also think that Willow's more hung up on
definitions than I am...
> I just don't see how you can say "Well, there has been a lot of sex
> going on generally on this show for the past few seasons" as if that
> means nothing is shocking or dramatic any more. True, these aren't
> high school kids or nervous virgins any more. But they aren't jaded
> and casually promiscuous either.
True, but let me suggest that the difference between a "Tabula
Rasa" style deep kiss and the boinking, while never insignificant or
anything, is less pronounced in the B/S relationship than it's been
for anyone else at any other time in the series up to this point. In a
firestorm romance like this in which no one's quite clear what kind
of emotional commitment is involved, sex is easy to imagine coming
(hah) early and often. Especially when you consider that one of them
is pushing harder and harder (hah) to try to find something to sing
about, and the other is a half-demon whose idea of love is different
than a human's. And thus the last scenes of TR and "Smashed" can
have similar motivations and moods, and not be so far apart as one
might think.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
> > The denial
> > leads to some nastiness from her that seems out of place compared to,
> > say, "Fool For Love." The difference is that here she's
> > manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
> > thought that it meant more." At this point I'm not seeing how it
> > benefits the show to have a Buffy-as-Parker-Abrams" element. No
> > matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
> > hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
> > is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
> > doesn't feel like a natural change.
>
> I partly agree; but here are two points in partial defense of Buffy's
> "cruelty." First, she's dealing with a guy who has refused all polite
> requests to back off; a slightly crueler approach may be unusual for
> Buffy, but it's not unjustified in the circumstances.
He seems to have this trange idea that she's sending mixed signals. I
wonder why.
> Second, I don't
> think Buffy has done to Spike anything like what Parker did to her.
> Parker deliberately gave Buffy the wrong idea to get her into bed, whereas
> when she kissed Spike Buffy just wasn't thinking about his feelings at
> all. She was callous and thoughtless, but Parker was deliberately
> manipulative (which is much worse IMO).
Well, and Parker's victim wasn't a mass-murderer, if that sort of thing
matters to you (although not sinking to someone's level is the essence
of "moral high ground"). I still say that Buffy's behavior is very
manipulative here, although agreed that it seems at least partly
unintentional; it's all about her own issues, not abou a premeditated
desire to use someone. I don't think the similar word choice is an
accident, though.
-AOQ
William George Ferguson
It is a track on the album "Sniper & Other Love Songs". The bread crumbs
in Itunes Music Store go Folk > Harry Chapin > Sniper & Other Love Songs
It's also on Napster and MuchMusic.
I found my way to it on the three locations by googling "harry chapin"
"burning herself" "mp3" and picking this result
http://www.mp3.com/albums/3019/summary.html
then clicking 'download'
There are likely other ways to get to it
As for whether I'm the sanest person on this newsgroup, I did type out the
final verse up above without needing to look it up. I could do whole song
without looking it up. I could do the whole album without looking it up.
That may disqualify me.
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
Captain Infinity
>Naq arkg jr unir Jvyybj gur penpx-zntvp juber.
Speaking of which, ubj qvq Nzl (jub unf orra n eng sbe lrnef) xabj gur
pheerag ybpngvba bs gur penpx-zntvp fubc?
**
Captain Infinity
burt...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Mike Zeares wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as for "wanton cruelty,"
> > don't forget WSWB. Torturing vampires isn't a new thing for her. You
> > don't really want to run up against Buffy when she's depressed or
> > pissed off. Or both.
>
> Everyone keeps bringing that up. Remember how that was the exception
> to normal Buffy behavior (here I'm thinking of the bit-ca phase;
> torturing the vampire was a means to an end)? How it stood out as
> something distinctly unlike her? Well, so does her behavior in
> "Smashed," but I'm not convinced yet that it's an isolated incident
> attributable to her mood since the show hasn't told us yet whether it
> knows what it's doing.
It's worth noting, too, that Spike gives just as good if not better
than he gets here. He knows what Buffy's mental state is at this point,
and when he taunts her that she "came back wrong," he's playing on all
the negative feelings he knows she has about her resurrection. I
guarantee you that those words hurt Buffy a lot more than any of his
punches did.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> This all makes Spike pretty well adjusted. You have to work pretty
> hard to be completely unaware of Star Wars. Spike clearly was familiar
> with it on a reasonably normal level, but not on a Cower Mortals level.
> Good for him.
elistist
dont they know theyre brother and sister
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> You'd think such a big comic book and horror movie fan would also have a
> nodding acquaintance with D&D.
given what theyre dealing with a d abd d book is actually a good idea
Ian Galbraith
wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> But the whole falling
>> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
> Can we say that this is the moment Buffy Summers hit bottom?
Ab, Qrnq Guvatf be Qbhorzrng Cnynpr ner gur obggbz
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Buffy isn't thinking clearly enough at this point to be manipulative.
Parker was very deliberate about his use-em-and-lose-em treatment of
girls. He knew exactly what he was doing. Buffy doesn't have a clue
right now.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
jil...@hotmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> It's worth noting, too, that Spike gives just as good if not better
> than he gets here. He knows what Buffy's mental state is at this point,
> and when he taunts her that she "came back wrong," he's playing on all
> the negative feelings he knows she has about her resurrection. I
> guarantee you that those words hurt Buffy a lot more than any of his
> punches did.
The pity of it is, I could see how "realistically", if Spike had been
able to back off and wait, to be there when she came to him which she
would have again, seeking comfort... eventually Buffy would have come
and slept there, and eventually would have kissed him and they would
have made love. Love for him, anyway. And since he would not have
known he could hit her, it would have been tender and overwhelmingly
sensual.
But it couldn't happen that way, because Spike could not back off.
That's not in his character. Her wavering is where he cannot
comprehend. She either does or she doesn't, he believes, and since he
sees she clearly does it's obvious to him that she needs to stop
thinking with her head and just do it. Becasue he knows the sex will
be fantastic. And to those who like to pretend that Joyce would have
approved of Spike over Angel, does the phrase "Nip this in the bud..."
ring any bells? And Buffy's response "Before the bud nips me?"
But for Buffy, it's not that simple. She's come to want him, to want
to drown in his kisses and look into eyes that see nothing as more
important than her. But he IS an evil vampire, and she knows better
than anyone that his having a chip in his head is not the same as being
inflicted with a soul. She knows he is evil and good girls do not
sleep with men they have no doubt are evil... but all her friends who
she knows are good hurt her so unbelievably much, and the good person
she should be able to turn to for comfort and counselling has abandoned
her.
Carin
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155160043.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
threads.
manipulative, not direct, in an un-Buffy-like way. "I'm sorry if you
thought that it meant more." At this point I'm not seeing how it
benefits the show to have a Buffy-as-Parker-Abrams" element. No
matter how nasty the villain, one of the things that's defined our
hero is the lack of wanton cruelty. I realize that part of the point
is trying to set up Buffy v. 3.0 as not quite the same person, but this
doesn't feel like a natural change.
Aaagh but we saw this side of her back in season 2 in "When She Was Bad" -
Buffy was very dark in that ep (after briefly being killed by the Master) -
this forshadows the Buffy that would be ripped from Heaven in Season 6.
Carin
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-A5163...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <1155220161.9...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> rrh...@acme.com wrote:
>
>> This all makes Spike pretty well adjusted. You have to work pretty
>> hard to be completely unaware of Star Wars. Spike clearly was familiar
>> with it on a reasonably normal level, but not on a Cower Mortals level.
>> Good for him.
>
> elistist
>
> dont they know theyre brother and sister
>
That's what made it so darn sexy! (jj)
(Harmony) Watcher
<jil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155167045.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > There really isn't much to debate on that score. Spike vamped out and
> > tried to bite that woman in the alley, only to be stopped by the chip.
> > It's clear that he was trying to kill her.
>
> And Warren did confirm that whatever the chip was, it was in perfect
> shape. We all know the chip only goes off when Spike's committed to
> the act. Well, no. We all don't know that. It's just what we've seen
> on the show. Or what I've seen on the show.
>
>
I'm also not inclined to believe that the chip was an intention measuring
device.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> don't really want to run up against Buffy when she's depressed or
> pissed off. Or both.
depressed is pissed off
its just all turned inward and the victim is busy with the inner turmoil
its hard for her to connect with the outside world
Stephen Tempest
>Speaking of which, ubj qvq Nzl (jub unf orra n eng sbe lrnef) xabj gur
>pheerag ybpngvba bs gur penpx-zntvp fubc?
>
She's a witch.
Nyy fur unf gb qb vf jnyx nebhaq qbjagbja hagvy fur frafrf jurer gur
ragenapr pheeragyl vf - fnzr nf Pyrz naq Qnja qb ng gur raq bs gur
frnfba.
Stephen
jil...@hotmail.com
Carin wrote:
> Aaagh but we saw this side of her back in season 2 in "When She Was Bad" -
> Buffy was very dark in that ep (after briefly being killed by the Master) -
> this forshadows the Buffy that would be ripped from Heaven in Season 6
Actually, as another point...
Buffy had sex once with the love of her life, Angel. He lost his soul.
She had sex once with Parker. He proved to be a total and complete
asshole.
She had lots of sex with Riley. He got so miserable that she didn't
sob and fall to pieces around him that he went out and started getting
suck-jobs from vampires before leaving her.
This is three dreadful experiences related to getting intimate with
men. She's gunshy, and of course it's Spike.
Don Sample
I am inclined to agree with you. There was the pointing the gun at
Xander scene. I doubt if he intended to shoot him right then and there.
Then there was hitting Tara in "Family," where he did it with "good"
intentions.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>>> But the whole falling
>>> through the floor in the throes of passion... a bit much, isn't it?
>
>> Can we say that this is the moment Buffy Summers hit bottom?
>
> Ab, Qrnq Guvatf be Qbhorzrng Cnynpr ner gur obggbz
But ... but ... with the falling through the floor and the basement and
the double meanings and stuff ... hitting bottom? Get it? Get it?
Okay, I guess it was kind of a dumb joke.
Gur gjb lbh yvfg ner tbbq cvpxf, ohg vs jr'er gnyxvat frevbhfyl nobhg
Ohssl uvggvat obggbz, zragvba zhfg or znqr bs gur svefg npg bs Nf Lbh
Jrer.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Captain Infinity
>She had sex once with Parker. He proved to be a total and complete
>asshole.
Asshole? What, do you think it was supposed to mean something more?
Like what, love? A relationship? Come on, get real.
**
Captain Infinity