Keeping the gay vote (spoilery speculation)
himiko
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I wandered over to the Kitten board today for the first time in a long
time to see what they thought about the rumored demise of Tara. They
weren't happy about it. No surprises there. I'm none too happy about
it either, for a number of reasons.
But one reason I hadn't foreseen was that they saw it as anti-gay.
Several people pointed out that traditionally, even in the few cases
where a gay relationship isn't portrayed as evil, it is portrayed as
doomed. And they have a point IMO. Not necessarily about ME being
anti-gay; ME sees all relationships as doomed. But taken in context
with the historical portrayal of gays in contemporary popular culture,
it is unfortunate.
So, how is ME going to handle this? Assuming they are not just going
to ignore it and let the gay chips fall where they may, what would you
suggest they do to avoid sending an anti-gay message and/or alienating
gay viewers?
What I've come up with isn't brilliant and I'm not gay so I may be way
off, but here they are:
1. Tara continues to be on the show in some undead state, possibly as
a spirit guide and moral support for Willow. Also a punishment for
Willow as Tara is now incorporeal. This is my favorite as it keeps
Tara on the show and I like the character, but if I were ME I'd worry
about the incorporeal part which has strong overtones of "it's OK for
women to love women as long as they don't touch each other's naughty
bits."
2. Tara continues in the way suggested above until Willow meets
someone else, possibly that woman she saw kiss Tara in the college
hallway. Then Tara gives the new union her blessing and drifts on to
her reward. Sappy and very un-ME IMO, but more or less PC...I think.
(I trust ME doesn't need to be told that having Willow return to Boys
Town is off limits?)
3. Willow (re)devotes her life to the battle against the forces of
evil, this time as a tribute to Tara's memory. She becomes a celibate
pilgrim in the metaphysical world, seeking out new forces of light and
new ways to fight the darkness. Kind of takes over Buffy's role, and
I don't see Willow as being that sort of person. Much too human for
sainthood. I could see her doing it for a while though, and then
falling in love with someone new just when she least expects to.
4. Willow incorporates Tara into herself in some way so that they
share the same body. Sort of the same problem as #1, but some sort of
sexual activity would be possible, maybe?
5. Willow mopes through most of S7.
6. They do some sort of reset so Tara isn't dead.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
himiko
J Po
"himiko" <him...@animail.net> wrote in message
news:c7902983.0204...@posting.google.com...
Possibly, just possibly, IF Tara were going to be offed, might it not simply
be because the actress wants off the show?
And if the actress wants off the show, and Tara dies, that certainly doesn't
indicate that Willow will turn back to the penis. There must be at least
one actress in Los Angeles willing to step in and play a new gay lover for
Willow. At LEAST one. (Anyone for two?)
Mrs. Poet
<snip>
>
>Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Considering that ALL relationships on BtVS end badly, it would be singling out
the gays to have them be happy and perfect. Considering that there ARE
bisexuals in the world, Willow should be able to date both men and women after
Tara's death.
Killing Tara off was probably a bad idea because it boxes ME in so much. If
Tara had simply gotten fed up and left Willow for another, more responsible
woman, it wouldn't matter what they did with Willow next season,...single, a
man, another woman, good, evil, etc.
Maybe ME can introduce a new gay relationship not involving Willow, and that
would free up ME to do what they want with her.
Rose. Tim and Wes on BtVS!
"I have honored your request for silence/ and you have washed your hands of
us." -- Alannis Morrisette
DarkMagic
beyond a shadow of a doubt, ME is anti joy in life, no matter who has it,
it's cruelly, often barbarically, snatched away. The cruelest twist yet was
making Buffy and Dawn believe that Joyce was recovering from her illness and
then having her drop dead on the living room couch. From the few
interviews I've read with JW, Marti, etc... it would seem that ME is getting
the message that the unrelenting gloom and doom approach doesn't have mass
viewer appeal and that the occasional pleasant outcome would be refreshing.
Willow has stated on quite a few occasions that she's gay now, it would be
easy enough to have her mope about losing Tara and then meet another women
who she can be happy with. I just don't think that is ever going to happen,
for whatever reason, JW is sold on the angst and he just can't let it go.
Shannon
TomTraubertsBlues
I think that all shows are pretty much anti-contentedness with its
characters. It's just a fact that characters who are hunky dorry with life
are not as interesting. All you have to do is look at soap operas. Nobody
ever stays happily married on them. I think there is a chance they will
have a happy ending to BTVS, but probably not. I don't think JW is inclined
that way. I hope I am wrong though. I do not favor a downer ending with
Buffy dying, and I REALLY hope they don't revisit that asylum angle and make
the whole thing a product of schizophrenia. If you're listening Joss, that
would suck!
Mike
Jan Sacharuk
> space
> 6. They do some sort of reset so Tara isn't dead.
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
I'm gonna stick by my wish prediction. Anya can grant wishes, and
she'll bring Tara back. The power of the wish seems boundless, so it
seems like an easy out. Then, because it wasn't really a vengeance
wish, she'll have her powers taken away, but the wish won't be
undone. Two for one deal.
JS
--
========================= j...@chloris.ca ========================
Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't think 'cos I understand, I care.
Don't think 'cos we're talkin', we're friends."
- 6 Underground, Sneaker Pimps
Joe Curwen
says...
I think the scholarship is lacking in their arguments, if they say that lesbian
characters are always doomed, killed off or whathaveyou. And I'm not sure if ME
needs to handle this at all, because I just can't believe that anyone would
believe for a second that ME is anti-gay.
Still, if ME is concerned about keeping and expanding its gay audience, then
perhaps they could point out that, showing a lesbian redemption story (Willow's)
would be a television first; showing a lesbian *reaffirm* her orientation by
choosing to love another woman would also be another television first. In order
to do either of these unique, never done stories, Tara has to die and Willow has
to go evil first. In short, ME just has to tell people to be patient. Another
angle that could be explored is that ME decided to do a "stereotypical" story
line *because* it was stereotypical; in essence they are saying that we are
comfortable enough in telling stories that include lesbians that stereotypical
portrayals can be done if need be.
Joe
DGH
8 Willow gets together with some other young women.
Most likely candidate would be Anya.
They can comfort each other over losing there powers.
Ian
Based on what I've read on the Kitten Board and elsewhere, there are
only two ways ME can or could have avoided offending some of these
viewers:
1. Don't portray gay relationships. Period. Obviously it's too late
for BtVS, but this really seems like the safest way to go. Once you
do portray a gay couple, you seem to risk the wrath of some groups if
anything bad happens to them.
2. Have Willow and Tara transported away to the soft, fuzzy land of
gay happiness, where nothing bad ever happens to them and they live a
long, happy life with each other. I dunno, maybe in a spin off or
something.
Apart from that, I don't see any way to keep some of these people
happy.
JLB
Losing Tara is enough to make Willow go psychopathically evil. I
think having a new character just step in especially with the
possibility that next year will be the last for BtVS would be hard to
swallow. And also Willow moving from Oz to Tara as quickly as she did
then moving from Tara to new love interest after only a few months
doesn't quite do her character justice.
I don't think Amber Benson wants off the show though. I heard rumors
that she signed some sort of optional contract with ME for thriteen
episodes. She won't necessarily be in the show but she'll be
available if they want her.
And finally another option. If Andrew and Jonathan survive this
season then at the beginning of next season in an effort to get the
Scoobies' forgiveness they resuurect Tara. Giles said there were
thoings with that power but you wouldn't want to meet them. Andrew
could summon one of them and get it to raise her but the payment it
wants is so great that they have to beg the Scoobies for protection.
JLB
BVallely
pound sand?
"We are socialists because we see in socialism…
the only chance to maintainour racial inheritance
and to regain our political freedom and renew our
German state"
Joseph Goebbels, 1932
JVBGUY
>Have Willow and Tara transported away to the soft, fuzzy land of
>gay happiness
I heard that place closed. I think it's a mall now.
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It is possible that some people could get their noses out of joint and consider
the possibility of Tara dying an anti-gay statement. But they would be wrong.
It has nothing to do with Willow and Tara's sexuality. It has to do with the
nature of relationships in this show. Every relationship in this series comes
to a bad ending. Why would Willow and Tara be any different?
And to JS, who predicts that Anya would bring Tara back with the wish power, I
think that would be one of the worse things that could happen in this show.
Not that I don't like Tara, but the more times you kill off a character and
then bring them back in the course of a series, the less the threat of death
matters in the storylines. Diminishing the threat of death, and you diminish
much dramatic tension from a show about mortals fighting demons.
john
kt
himiko wrote:
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I've heard that both Joss and Marti stated their awareness of the
lesbian turns evil, lesbian relationships are doomed, and the lesbian
must die cliche. And they said it would not happen with Tara and Willow.
Can anyone confirm this?
Mooselet
Lord Usher
<c7902983.0204...@posting.google.com>...
Hmm... I'm not sure what I think about this.
On the one hand, I understand that there's an unfortunate precedent here.
And, while I don't think ME at all embraces the homophobic philosophy
behind that premise, I think it's a good idea to avoid even the
*appearance* of embracing such a thing. Unless, of course, the story you're
telling demands it -- the only thing worse than following an unfortunate
premise unnecessarily is avoiding an important and compelling story just
because it happens to follow a certain precedent.
Problem is, I don't think the story does demand it. ME was well on its way
to establishing a legitimate Dark Will arc at the beginning of this season
that would've worked just as well had Tara remained alive. It's only
because ME veered off into the spectacularly awful Druggie Willow storyline
that they even need a Monumental Tragedy to push Willow back off the wagon.
So, basically, they only need to kill Tara because "Wrecked" sucked. And
the idea that Tara must die because the writers screwed up is not all that
appealing to me.
On the other hand, I'm *really* uncomfortable with the sense of entitlement
that some of the W/T fans seem to have. As if, because W/T are one of the
first fully-realized gay couples on mainstream TV, it's somehow immoral and
unthinkable for the writers to be mean to them. Erm... the writers are mean
to *all* their couples, all their characters. They killed off Jenny just as
she and Giles were becoming close, revamped Darla just as she and Angel
were discovering how much they needed one another.
Why should Willow and Tara get an Anti-Badness Shield, just because they
happen to be gay? Isn't the whole idea that ME has shown that it *doesn't
matter* that they're gay? Isn't the point supposed to be that they get
treated just like anyone else? And shouldn't that apply to the bad as well
as the good?
> 1. Tara continues to be on the show in some undead state, possibly as
> a spirit guide and moral support for Willow. Also a punishment for
> Willow as Tara is now incorporeal. This is my favorite as it keeps
> Tara on the show and I like the character, but if I were ME I'd worry
> about the incorporeal part which has strong overtones of "it's OK for
> women to love women as long as they don't touch each other's naughty
> bits."
This is the option I expect ME to take. Phantom Dennis aside, they've
really never done a "ghost" character before, and perhaps they think this
is their chance.
But the Kittens would *not* be pleased with this, I don't think. The series
finale of XENA used exactly this resolution, and apparently the lesbian
community *hated* it. (I'm not even sure why; it seemed an appropriate
enough final reckoning for the Warrior Princess.)
The whole "looky no touchy" thing is a bad, certainly. But there's no law
that says a spirit has to be completely noncorporeal, is there? We could
surely have some hot girl-on-poltergeist action.
They'd have to tread carefully, though, and firmly establish what Tara has
lost as well as what she has retained, or they risk further trivializing
what was once a very serious topic on BUFFY -- namely, death.
--
Lord Usher
"Don't we kill 'em any more?"
SAA
How is the killing of Tara and anti-gay statement? Every other
relationship portrayed on BTVS has ended badly, straight, vampire,
werwolf, or gay involved. I see absolutely nothing anti-gay in what
they are reportedly doing. If anything, it is making a statement
that gay relationships are like any other relationship, bad things
happen. I just wish that they would portray some lasting relationship
rather than making them ALL end badly.
All in all I think that the relationship between Tara and WIllow has
been portrayed very well and killing one of them off is nothing more
than following the same path they have in the past.
Sam7777
> Himiko wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> >Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
>
> Considering that ALL relationships on BtVS end badly, it would be singling out
> the gays to have them be happy and perfect. Considering that there ARE
> bisexuals in the world, Willow should be able to date both men and women after
> Tara's death.
>
> Killing Tara off was probably a bad idea because it boxes ME in so much. If
> Tara had simply gotten fed up and left Willow for another, more responsible
> woman, it wouldn't matter what they did with Willow next season,...single, a
> man, another woman, good, evil, etc.
>
relationships as doomed in only one case has someone died: Jenny
Calendar. When they split up Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley, Xander/Cordy
and Willow/Oz, no one died. It seems rather singualr to kill Tara to
end Willow/Tara. In Jenny's case she dies because she was involved
with the gypsies and Angelus killed her to stop her restoring her
soul. Tara is an innocent so her death is senseless which is a
message but one they did last year with Joyce.
Another problem I see with the message that they are putting out this
season is the magic addiction thing. In 4th season, magic and wicca
was used as a metaphor for being gay. Given that 6th season, we see
that you can be addicted to magic and then turn evil what can we infer
this says about being gay.
I guess the final vote on the season will be in the ratings.
<snip>
JVBGUY
SEASON ENDING SPOILER SPACE
(though if you this far into the thread, it's too late for you....)
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sam777733 wrote:
>Another problem I see with the message that they are putting out this
>season is the magic addiction thing. In 4th season, magic and wicca
>was used as a metaphor for being gay. Given that 6th season, we see
>that you can be addicted to magic and then turn evil what can we infer
>this says about being gay.
>
>I guess the final vote on the season will be in the ratings.
I suppose that's a problem with having Willow be "gay now" in the first place.
No matter what storyline they develop for her, somebody is going to see it as a
metaphor for being gay and object to it. And when things were happening to
Willow when she was in love with Xander and Oz, that was a metaphor for what,
exactly?
I don't look at everything that happens to Willow and Tara and think "Ah, a gay
metaphor!". Bad things happen on this show to everybody. In fact, that has
been my main complaint with this entire season - very few moments of happiness.
So if bad things are going to happen to Willow and/or Tara, I'm not going to
think it is a message that says 'See, that's what happens when you're gay", I'm
just going to take it as more of the same depressing "See, life sucks!" message
they've been obsessing over this whole season.
So if they are going to bump off somebody, it's just because they want to bump
off somebody so that they can send us off to our summer vacations feeling bad,
not because they want to send any message about alternative lifestyles. Tara
is the most expendable character in their opinion.
I kind of agree, but I can think of a much better choice, however.
john
JLB
The threat of death has already been destroyed when Willow resurrected
Buffy almost five months after her death.
Personally, even if Willow stops doing magic completely and even if
the series finale shows them dying horrible agonizing deaths I will
always believe a few years later some novice member of the Watcher's
Council will translate a prophecy and needing the greatest Slayer and
her allies find a way to resurrect the Scooby Gang. And after they
defeat the big evil then this time they'll get to retire and live
happily ever after.
JLB
Morpheus
> 1. Tara continues to be on the show in some undead state, possibly as
> a spirit guide and moral support for Willow. Also a punishment for
> Willow as Tara is now incorporeal. This is my favorite as it keeps
> Tara on the show and I like the character, but if I were ME I'd worry
> about the incorporeal part which has strong overtones of "it's OK for
> women to love women as long as they don't touch each other's naughty
> bits."
Sure this could work. Look at how popular this copout was with Xena fans.
Sara C
"Lord Usher" <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote :
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way
> to establishing a legitimate Dark Will arc at the beginning of this season
> that would've worked just as well had Tara remained alive. It's only
> because ME veered off into the spectacularly awful Druggie Willow
storyline
> that they even need a Monumental Tragedy to push Willow back off the
wagon.
And JLB said:
>The threat of death has already been destroyed when Willow resurrected
>Buffy almost five months after her death.
I'm going to agree slightly with JLB, although I'm still waiting to see what
consequences come and bite Willow in the ass for that one (especially
considering that the spell got interrupted by biker demons). And like Lord
Usher said, Tara wouldn't have to die if they hadn't done the stupid "magic
as drugs" storyline. I can see why people wouldn't want Tara to die, but
don't want someone to push the reset button either. A midpoint perhaps?
Back in S5, Glory brainsucked Tara and that was all it took for Will to
delve into the dark magic. Tara wasn't really harmed physically (except for
the busted hand), but Willow still went off the deep end to avenge what
Glory had done to her. I personally don't think Tara has to actually DIE
for Willow to go from no-magic-period to dark-magic-evil-willow. Instead of
her death, Tara is left in a NEAR-death state, hospitalized in ICU on life
support and possibly comatose, with no one knowing if she will actually
survive. If a little brainsucking got Glory a nice ass-whoopin, imagine
what would happen to the Nerdly Trio if Willow believed that Tara was dead
or wouldn't live much longer. Poor bastards would never stand a chance,
and Dark Willow will have returned full force.
Sara
JVBGUY
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>
>The threat of death has already been destroyed when Willow resurrected
>Buffy almost five months after her death.
I would go further than that. I thought the threat of death was removed the
moment they killed off Buffy at the end of Season Five. The question never was
"Did Buffy really die?", the question was "How are they going to bring her
back?". Since UPN had already picked up the show, there was no way in hell
Buffy really died. Which is why the end of "The Gift" didn't move me a whole
lot.
It was further destroyed on ANGEL when Lorne got his head chopped off. That
was a serious moment for me, and I remember thinking "Wow, they killed off a
fun and likable character just to move a story along." Then he began to talk
and I thought "I should have known."
They've done it way too many times.
>Personally, even if Willow stops doing magic completely and even if
>the series finale shows them dying horrible agonizing deaths I will
>always believe a few years later some novice member of the Watcher's
>Council will translate a prophecy and needing the greatest Slayer and
>her allies find a way to resurrect the Scooby Gang. And after they
>defeat the big evil then this time they'll get to retire and live
>happily ever after.
I guess that's how they'll do BUFFY: THE 20 YEAR REUNION SPECIAL. Only you
know one member of the cast will probably not show up (it always happens) and
they'll get a lame replacement. (XANDER: " Will, you've changed! WILLOW:
"Hey, Latino now.")
john
Silveragent
him...@animail.net (himiko) wrote:
As I understand it --
1. AB was offered a regular role this season and turned it down to work
on her movie "Chance"
2. She wants off the show next season to promote her movie at Sundance,
Toronto, SXSW, etc. She's looking for a distribution deal. She's very
talented. She wants to get into writing/directing, essentially become a
"Joss." Good for her.
3. Willow's S/O doesn't get much to do. Much of Tara's dialogue could be
Oz's -- "Hey", "Yeah", etc.
4. No new regulars in S7, the last and "money" season. So no new "gay"
love interest for Willow.
5. Expect B/S in time for May sweeps, it will be "nicer" presumably for
higher repeat viewing when the FX deal ends and it's time for secondary
syndication deals.
6. Expect some "skin" shown by newly dubbed "Bad Girl" Willow in time
for S7 November and Feb sweeps. She will have a new hookup. With a
"nice" character. Think "Friends" Monica/Chandler. Gotta get the repeat
ratings up from "Smashed", "Wrecked", "Dead Things" levels. I assume
Marti has a financial interest in doing so as part of her new deal. So I
further assume this will happen.
7. SMG, the star, does not like showing skin and has said so publicly.
AH does not have this problem. AH is a very beautiful woman. Did I say
AH was beautiful?
8. Hookups are mandatory next season for Sweeps reasons alone. I assume
no one forgot the November Sweeps significance of the brief Lilah/Angel
hookup (body switching episode) last year? So no "I Robot You Jane"
dynamics of all scoobs alone (remember sweeps ratings and sex sells).
Did I mention Stephanie Romanov is beautiful? Oh ... and Wes/Lilah --
two good looking characters with the Bad/Good heat going on ... gonna
happen.
9. No B/X next season. Two "good" characters? Sorry B/X fans, this is as
boring as B/R. Good/Bad brings the heat; Good/Good does not.
Bogart/Hepburn in the "African Queen" is exciting; Ronald Reagan in the
Bogart role is not (OK I'm cheating here).
10. EC has made "leaving" noises. Current storyline would seem to
preclude Xanya or Spike/Anya barring reset/retcon.
11. Anya is channeling Barbara Stanwyck and Xander is looking like Fred
McMurray. Xanya will not end well believe me.
12. Typical "redemption" for a "bad girl" that oh ... I don't know ...
maybe KILLED SOMEBODY? is for her to hook up with a "good" average
person kinda character. This explains the innate appeal of Buffy/Spike.
Rose can probably tell you more on this than I ever could. With Willow
"bad", she's gotta be put with someone "good" where their love
transforms her into a new value system of morality (i.e. killing people
and ending the world is bad, helping people is good. I am NOT talking
sexual orientation here folks -- wanna make THAT clear). I assume for
this reason alone ME has wanted Wes/Faith and is prepping "Justine" as a
poor man's Faith for next season.
13. Hmmm .... what "good" character can we put Faith ... I mean Willow
with (love the dark hair btw)? Buffy ?? No. Dawn ?? No. Spike ??? No.
Miss Kitty Fantastico ?? No. Ok, how about .... Xander!!
14. Willow's always had a Xander "exception" it seems. See
Doppelgangland ("Hands Hands Watch the Hands"); Triangle is not filler
-- Anya says she will never hurt Xander and Willow denies her attraction
to Xander (She is still Gay folks, she's just got the Xander feelings).
There are weird WTF moments this season (as a Xanya fan it did not make
me happy) with Willow sabotaging Xanya (Afterlife, OaFA, a few others)
or looking "lustfully" at Xander ... after Anya's left so she's not just
pushing Anya's buttons like Will loves to do.
15. Recent convention goers in Australia report that NB is buffed out to
the max. Other posters on AngelX's excellent site report that ME has
repeatedly asked NB to stop weightlifting so he looks more average which
he has refused to do. He's supposedly HUGE in the shoulders and bigger
than Blucas. Watch AYW ... Xander's always "sideways" to hide his
shoulders. ME costuming has had to get creative with padding and "fat"
clothes to hide his muscles. Shirtless Xander will astound the female
audience when it's unveiled next sweeps.
Note -- here are some pics 4 years apart -- you decide:
http://nicholasbrendon.8m.com/cgi-bin/i/pictures/nick32.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/p66c9d60b99f3079c58620edea324
2af5/fdca54d0.jpg.orig.jpg
Did I mention that sex sells? And that NB is a good looking guy and AH
is a very beautiful woman? And a fantastic actress btw.
16. Willow/Xander, with a newly "strong" Willow reaching out to a "weak"
Xander (how many takers for the Spankya video being posted by
Jonathon/Andrew on the internet to max out Xander's angst and
humiliation?) has an appeal. It strengthens the W/X dyad and generates
intermediate conflict with Buffy; Willow/Xander now have reasons not to
fight. The inevitable Willow pregnancy in time for May Sweeps and annual
apocalypse will give W/X a reason to fight as well and have a set of
jeapordy moments that ME loves to do.
17. Tara will probably "ghost" in to approve the Willow reachout and
hookup with Xander. Motivation -- sweeps and skin and sex ... uh ...
Tara "wants" Willow to be happy with the one other being that exists
that loves her as much as she does. Or somesuch stuff.
18. The scenes with Willow triumphantly possessing her Xander in front
of Anya. You know that was the whole point of Triangle and Hells Belles
don't you? I'm sure Anya will learn to her horror that the whole Xander
walkout thing was prompted by some sort of compulsion or similiar
nonsense and her revenge was all for nothing -- in other words a
"Wesley" moment to torture the character. And let poor Anya lose to her
natural rival Big Red. Just to show that vengeance sucks! And abuse Anya.
19. Symbolic "Welcome to the Hellmouth" opening ... Xander scopes out
Buffy and falls at Willows feet. And ... kinda sorta checks out Willow's
excellent legs.
20. Kittens know this. They are not stupid. They can do the sweeps
math, look at the money year, and figure out the ME formula.
21. Xanya fans like me knew we were in for trouble as soon as I heard
Willow say (while looking lustfully) "She's walking away from a gold
mine!". That being said ... Willow/Xander has it's appeal -- if for
nothing else the freak out that Buffy, Dawn, Giles, and especially Anya
will do. Oh, and it lets Spike get back in with Xander by "saving"
Willow. Spike "saving" Anya would just piss Xander off by increasing his
jealousy. And W/X makes Anya and Spike irrelevant. Xander knows how Will
feels about him cause she can't hurt him in her lowest moment ...
22. Does ME care if Kittens and Xanya fans tune out ... probably not if
Marti's comments about the fans ("stalker like" I believe were her
words) can be relied upon.
23. ME is in the business to tell stories that make money. And sex
sells. ME would love to put SMG back in those S1 halter tops but thats
not gonna happen. Willow/Xander in the mood for love has the potential
to amp up viewership like Monica/Chandler did for "Friends.
24. Anyone for a reset/retcon ??
25. Now you all know WHY I've been peddling/hoping for a reset. I like
W/T and I like Xanya. But they are sadly gone for good.
Cheers and love to all.
ElfBard
that
> would free up ME to do what they want with her.
<sigh> I'd love some B/F but somehow I doubt it's likelyhood. Oh well.
Paul Hammond
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> So, how is ME going to handle this? Assuming they are not just going
> to ignore it and let the gay chips fall where they may, what would you
> suggest they do to avoid sending an anti-gay message and/or alienating
> gay viewers?
>
I think that these people are likely so over-sensitive they'd see an
anti-gay message in virtually anything. ME are screwed, they can't
please this audience, and imv shouldn't even try.
Paul
Mrs. Poet
> From the few
>interviews I've read with JW, Marti, etc... it would seem that ME is getting
>the message that the unrelenting gloom and doom approach doesn't have mass
>viewer appeal and that the occasional >pleasant outcome would be refreshing.
Hmm...what did they say that gave you that idea?
I'm currently of the opinion that JW and company don't give a flying fig what
the fans, critics, ratings and anyone else say. They know what they like and
what they want and they're going to do it. If they were at all worried about
viewer reactions and concerns, they would not have shot a particular scene
which is coming up in early May, a scene which caused Fox Television to lower
the boom and insist on edits.
I think they figure that the show is probably going off the air after S7 anyway
so screw it, they'll do whatever, no matter how many viewers they alienate or
how few new ones they get. I've been told here that that would be self
destructive and hurtful to their careers, but their careers seem to be doing
fine. Noxon just signed a 7 figure deal with Fox, Petrie is writing for
another series, Whedon is working on new projects. BtVS, guaranteed to last
thru S7, can now be their private playground. And it is.
Hey, if I'm right, there is nothing wrong with that. They are free to make any
kind of television show they want, and we are free to watch it or not as we
choose.
Sam7777
couple as a gay couple without the stereotypes like "here's the ep
that they kiss kind of thing". Joss wrote and driected the ep
"Family" where he equated being a witch with being gay and put out the
message none too subtly that Tara's family was wrong and the scoobies
were her real family. In fact I was hoping for a more interesting
resolution to the Tara has a secret thing that involved how her mom
died. Instead they went with a none to subtle gay metaphor and her
mom dying of an unspecified illness.
Joss has also said in interviews that he was unhappy with the WB not
letting them show Willow and Tara having the same kind of intimacy as
the straight couples on the show. Joss has made the gay thing into a
message in the past so it's not unreasonable to see a message with
what they are doing with Willow and Tara as part of the Willow
addiction plotline as another message. Killing Tara soon after (the
smae ep apparantly) they finally show them have sex wihtou a
magic/musical metaphor play is a gay stereotype that says "See, that's
what happens when you're gay". See the "Celluliod Closet" for
numerous other examples. I'm hoping that Joss and company are
introducing the stereotype to turn it on it's ear but spoilers
indicate they are taking the path of a non to subtle drug and evil
message.
> So if they are going to bump off somebody, it's just because they want to bump
> off somebody so that they can send us off to our summer vacations feeling bad,
> not because they want to send any message about alternative lifestyles. Tara
> is the most expendable character in their opinion.
>
I though Joyce and Buffy was enough bumping off of characters to last
them a couple of seasons. I don't think that they are intentionally
trying to send that message but there it is.
> I kind of agree, but I can think of a much better choice, however.
>
I wish they had foillowed up on Dawn being the key. Thay major plot
line has just been dropped.
DrWoodard...@hotmail.com
---------------------------
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DrWoodard...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>I'm currently of the opinion that JW and company don't give a flying fig what
>the fans, critics, ratings and anyone else say. They know what they like and
>what they want and they're going to do it. If they were at all worried about
>viewer reactions and concerns, they would not have shot a particular scene
>which is coming up in early May, a scene which caused Fox Television to lower
>the boom and insist on edits.
What scene is this?
DrWoodard...@hotmail.com
witchcraft goes or the gay theme goes?
Mabye the TPTB were willingt to venture into one
area but not both?
Also you refer oftent to "Kitten" Who is Kitten?
>In article <c7902983.0204...@posting.google.com>,
> him...@animail.net (himiko) wrote:
>> But one reason I hadn't foreseen was that they saw it as anti-gay.
---------------------------
DrWoodard...@hotmail.com
Who or what is ME?
> him...@animail.net (himiko) wrote:
>> So, how is ME going to handle this?
JVBGUY
>Who is ME?
Mutant Enemy aka Joss Whedon and company.
john
JVBGUY
sam777733 wrote:
I was actually very impressed when Willow and Tara kissed in "The Body". It
seemed like the first lesbian kiss on television that wasn't put in for
titillation and ratings, and it wasn't hyped as "Willow and Tara kiss!" weeks
beforehand. The kiss happened because of the story (Willow being upset at the
time, Tara trying to comfort her) and it was a nice moment. It was so natural
for the story that it was only five minutes later I thought "Hey, that was an
unhyped lesbian kiss on TV. Alert the media!"
>Joss has made the gay thing into a
>message in the past so it's not unreasonable to see a message with
>what they are doing with Willow and Tara as part of the Willow
>addiction plotline as another message.
I always wondered why exactly the decision came to make Willow gay. If it was
just so Joss could put out messages in his stories, then it was the wrong thing
to do. If you want to send a message, Sam Goldwyn used to say, use Western
Union ("send a telegram" for anyone who is not familiar with Western Union).
And if it was a move to send a message, it was a pro-gay message, because
Willow and Tara have usually been shown in a favorable loving light with very
few of the soap opera plot twists that have accompanied Buffy and Angel, Buffy
and Riley, Buffy and Spike, Willow and Oz, Willow and Xander, Cordy and Xander
and Xander and Anya. It was only this season where something negative happened
in the Willow/Tara relationship (not counting Tara's being brainsucked last
season, which actually re-emphasised Willow's love for her.)
So I don't see Joss now purposely sending an anti-gay message.
>Killing Tara soon after (the
>smae ep apparantly) they finally show them have sex wihtou a
>magic/musical metaphor play is a gay stereotype that says "See, that's
>what happens when you're gay".
Well, I don't see it like that, but not having read a lot (well, anything)
about gay stereotypes in films and TV shows, I leave this one up in the air.
But I just don't Joss as a guy who would deliberately take a beloved character
and change her sexual persuasion just so eventually he could put out an
anti-gay message two seasons later.
And the more I discover about the final episodes of this season, the more I
doubt there will be any sort of turnaround that will magically "save" this
season. And the less I look forward to Season 7. And it makes me wonder - am I
the first person in this group to be a Season 7 Whiner, months before it is
even here? If so, color me proud. :-)
>I though Joyce and Buffy was enough bumping off of characters to last
>them a couple of seasons. I don't think that they are intentionally
>trying to send that message but there it is.
It seems that they have decided to forgo any and all happy endings these days,
so I am not surprised if a character is going to be killed.
>I wish they had foillowed up on Dawn being the key. Thay major plot
>line has just been dropped.
I wish Dawn had been turned back into a key, and then Buffy had accidentally
dropped her down a storm drain and couldn't retrieve her.
john
DarkMagic
"Mrs. Poet" <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
news:20020426103720...@mb-fg.aol.com...
> Shannon wrote:
>
> > From the few
> >interviews I've read with JW, Marti, etc... it would seem that ME is
getting
> >the message that the unrelenting gloom and doom approach doesn't have
mass
> >viewer appeal and that the occasional >pleasant outcome would be
refreshing.
>
> Hmm...what did they say that gave you that idea?
According to Wanda, so take your grain of salt now, she spoke to JW about
the gloomy season and he said next season the show would revert to it's
lighter more humorous side. Of course, sometimes you have to take a grain
of salt with what JW says too. Although, I have heard him mention in other
interviews that the show will lighten up towards the end of this season and
continue in a lighter direction.
>
> I'm currently of the opinion that JW and company don't give a flying fig
what
> the fans, critics, ratings and anyone else say. They know what they like
and
> what they want and they're going to do it. If they were at all worried
about
> viewer reactions and concerns, they would not have shot a particular scene
> which is coming up in early May, a scene which caused Fox Television to
lower
> the boom and insist on edits.
JW has his particular vision for Buffy and I really think sometimes he would
rather not do the show at all than not be able to do it exactly as he sees
it. Just imo, that was a big part of Buffy moving to UPN, more money and
less editing, even though I think it's been, and will continue to be a
ratings disaster for Buffy. They had a golden block of television time on
Tuesday nights with Angel. Buffy may as well have stayed dead in the
Detroit market. We rarely see the show on Tuesday night, and sometimes it's
rescheduling is pre-empted as well.
> I think they figure that the show is probably going off the air after S7
anyway
> so screw it, they'll do whatever, no matter how many viewers they alienate
or
> how few new ones they get. I've been told here that that would be self
> destructive and hurtful to their careers, but their careers seem to be
doing
> fine. Noxon just signed a 7 figure deal with Fox, Petrie is writing for
> another series, Whedon is working on new projects. BtVS, guaranteed to
last
> thru S7, can now be their private playground. And it is.
Buffy is definately on the down swing. Even really great shows don't last
much past seven seasons, so you are probably right that JW and company are
winging it from here.
Shannon>
>
JVBGUY
>According to Wanda, so take your grain of salt now, she spoke to JW about
>the gloomy season and he said next season the show would revert to it's
>lighter more humorous side. Of course, sometimes you have to take a grain
>of salt with what JW says too. Although, I have heard him mention in other
>interviews that the show will lighten up towards the end of this season and
>continue in a lighter direction.
If he indeed has plans to lighten things up towards the end of this season, I
am here to remind him that he is quickly running out of time.
>JW has his particular vision for Buffy and I really think sometimes he would
>rather not do the show at all than not be able to do it exactly as he sees
>it.
I wonder if Joss had much of a vision beyond Buffy's graduation when he
initially developed the series, and if he perhaps didn't envision this thing
going beyond a few seasons.
>Buffy is definately on the down swing. Even really great shows don't last
>much past seven seasons, so you are probably right that JW and company are
>winging it from here.
>
Three seasons and out is my theory. Some shows last well beyond that and are
still good, but three seasons gives you all the room you need for the set-up
(season one), the twist (season two) and the payoff (not surprisingly, season
three). And you don't have to worry about burning out or having a series go
downhill.
john
Mrs. Poet
>From: "DarkMagic" slnosp...@yahoo.com
>Date: 4/26/2002 12:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <p2iy8.202004$%l3.16...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>
>
>
>"Mrs. Poet" <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
>news:20020426103720...@mb-fg.aol.com...
>> Shannon wrote:
>>
>> > From the few
>> >interviews I've read with JW, Marti, etc... it would seem that ME is
>getting
>> >the message that the unrelenting gloom and doom approach doesn't have
>mass
>> >viewer appeal and that the occasional >pleasant outcome would be
>refreshing.
>>
>> Hmm...what did they say that gave you that idea?
>
>According to Wanda, so take your grain of salt now, she spoke to JW about
>the gloomy season and he said next season the show would revert to it's
>lighter more humorous side.
Lemme tell you why that's frightening.
He said the same thing about S6. "I want more jokes" he said of S6, because he
supposedly wanted a change after the ultra serious S5. Maybe next season David
Lynch will direct a few eps. :)
> Of course, sometimes you have to take a grain
>of salt with what JW says too. Although, I have heard him mention in other
>interviews that the show will lighten up towards the end of this season and
>continue in a lighter direction.
>>
::guffaw:: ::snerk:: ::bwahahahahaha:::
Thanks for the laugh!
Mrs. Poet
>Date: 4/26/2002 11:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ik7jcusp1fkng0hgj...@4ax.com>
>
>On 26 Apr 2002 14:37:20 GMT, fyl...@aol.comspam (Mrs. Poet)
>wrote:
>
>>I'm currently of the opinion that JW and company don't give a flying fig
>what
>>the fans, critics, ratings and anyone else say. They know what they like and
>>what they want and they're going to do it. If they were at all worried
>about
>>viewer reactions and concerns, they would not have shot a particular scene
>>which is coming up in early May, a scene which caused Fox Television to
>lower
>>the boom and insist on edits.
>
>What scene is this?
>---------------------------
>
If you really wanna know, scroll down for a major future plot spoiler...
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A week from Tuesday, Spike will take Buffy's "no sex" for "yes sex" and become
rather too insistent upon nookie. Whether this amounts to an actual attempted
rape is not clear, but apparently the scene was so dark and disturbing that Fox
insisted on edits that Mutant Enemy didn't want.
Mrs. Poet
>Date: 4/26/2002 12:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020426151304...@mb-ce.aol.com>
>
>DrWoodardonDS wrote:
>
>>Who is ME?
>
>Mutant Enemy aka Joss Whedon and company.
>
Damn. And all this time I thought it meant me, Rose. Me. So you guys were
talking about Mutant Enemy all along?
You bastards!
millernate
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> time to see what they thought about the rumored demise of Tara. They
> weren't happy about it. No surprises there. I'm none too happy about
> it either, for a number of reasons.
>
> where a gay relationship isn't portrayed as evil, it is portrayed as
> doomed. And they have a point IMO. Not necessarily about ME being
> anti-gay; ME sees all relationships as doomed. But taken in context
> with the historical portrayal of gays in contemporary popular culture,
> it is unfortunate.
>
> to ignore it and let the gay chips fall where they may, what would you
> suggest they do to avoid sending an anti-gay message and/or alienating
> gay viewers?
>
Well they've alienated a (soon to be) majoirty of other viewers so
what makes gay viewers so special that they can't be alienated? :)
> What I've come up with isn't brilliant and I'm not gay so I may be way
> off, but here they are:
>
> 1. Tara continues to be on the show in some undead state, possibly as
> a spirit guide and moral support for Willow. Also a punishment for
> Willow as Tara is now incorporeal. This is my favorite as it keeps
> Tara on the show and I like the character, but if I were ME I'd worry
> about the incorporeal part which has strong overtones of "it's OK for
> women to love women as long as they don't touch each other's naughty
> bits."
>
I'm with Lord Usher on the "who says it has to be completely
incorporal" camp. Also, this *does* fit with the idea of signing
Amber Benson to a 13 episode "option" contract. THough it is my
understanding that this didn't work with Xena so it may be a bit of a
long shot.
> 2. Tara continues in the way suggested above until Willow meets
> someone else, possibly that woman she saw kiss Tara in the college
> hallway. Then Tara gives the new union her blessing and drifts on to
> her reward. Sappy and very un-ME IMO, but more or less PC...I think.
> (I trust ME doesn't need to be told that having Willow return to Boys
> Town is off limits?)
>
What they are making a remake of an old Spencer Tracy movie and ALyson
didn't get cast? :)
Seriously thougth this is a distinct possiblity.
> 3. Willow (re)devotes her life to the battle against the forces of
> evil, this time as a tribute to Tara's memory. She becomes a celibate
> pilgrim in the metaphysical world, seeking out new forces of light and
> new ways to fight the darkness. Kind of takes over Buffy's role, and
> I don't see Willow as being that sort of person. Much too human for
> sainthood. I could see her doing it for a while though, and then
> falling in love with someone new just when she least expects to.
>
If the reports that have been coming out about the end of this season
are true they may well have set up a situation to keep Willow single
for a season ("like they should have done this season with Buffy"- he
said arrogantly :) ) and if season 7 is indeed the last season then it
could work.
> 4. Willow incorporates Tara into herself in some way so that they
> share the same body. Sort of the same problem as #1, but some sort of
> sexual activity would be possible, maybe?
>
> 5. Willow mopes through most of S7.
>
NO...more...moping!
> 6. They do some sort of reset so Tara isn't dead.
>
Given the fact that these characters will be irrevesibly ruined from
other incidents without a reset...this could indeed happen (there is
no way to fix these people otherwise, Xander, for example, will always
be a worthless coward because of what he did to Anya).
> Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
>
> himiko
Nathan
Mrs. Poet
>Date: 4/26/2002 2:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <d7aac7f9.02042...@posting.google.com>
>
>him...@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message
>news:<c7902983.0204...@posting.google.com>...
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<snip>
>Given the fact that these characters will be irrevesibly ruined from
>other incidents without a reset...this could indeed happen (there is
>no way to fix these people otherwise, Xander, for example, will always
>be a worthless coward because of what he did to Anya).
>
And other things. :pppp
Rose.
"Assume crash positions." -- Tara
Ian
[snip]
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> It is possible that some people could get their noses out of joint and
> consider the possibility of Tara dying an anti-gay statement. But they would > be wrong.
Well, I certainly think so. Without doubt, it's a bizarre notion. In
all fairness, I think it's a pretty small group who feel this way.
> It has nothing to do with Willow and Tara's sexuality. It has to do with the
> nature of relationships in this show. Every relationship in this series comes
> to a bad ending. Why would Willow and Tara be any different?
Haven't you been paying attention?? Because they're GAY!
That was sarcasm, BTW. ;)
> And to JS, who predicts that Anya would bring Tara back with the wish power, I
> think that would be one of the worse things that could happen in this show.
> Not that I don't like Tara, but the more times you kill off a character and
> then bring them back in the course of a series, the less the threat of death
> matters in the storylines. Diminishing the threat of death, and you diminish
> much dramatic tension from a show about mortals fighting demons.
I agree that it seems to lower the stakes somewhat when you keep
killing off characters only to bring them back next season. We'll
see.
JLB
It's not so much anti-gay to kill Tara as simply a poor choice. It
removes one of the few gay relationships on TV for the sake of a poor
storyline and angst. Willow and Tara don't seem to know any other gay
people so any new lesbian love interest for Willow will be a totally
new character that we don't know. At most we'll have a halfseason of
romance with this character due to the time needed for her to be
introduced and get close to Willow.
JLB
Sam7777
> Is it possible that the TPTB gave the edict either the
> witchcraft goes or the gay theme goes?
> Mabye the TPTB were willingt to venture into one
> area but not both?
>
they let them show Buffy and Spike doing. Fox asked them to cut back a
Buffy/Spike scene that is coming up but they haven't censored the gay
theme in the past. Most of the censorship for that came from the WB
who didn't want them to kiss or appear in bed together (sleeping or
otherwise). Perhapes Mutant Enemy has gotten tired of dealing with the
gay characters.
> Also you refer oftent to "Kitten" Who is Kitten?
>
Glossary notes:
The Kitten is a fan board on the web.
ME is Mutant Enemy the production company run by Joss Whedon that
creates the Buffy show.
<snip>
JVBGUY
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JLB wrote:
>It's not so much anti-gay to kill Tara as simply a poor choice. It
>removes one of the few gay relationships on TV for the sake of a poor
>storyline and angst.
ME sacrificing characters for a poor storyline and angst? Wow. There's a
shocker. :-)
>Willow and Tara don't seem to know any other gay
>people so any new lesbian love interest for Willow will be a totally
>new character that we don't know.
Which is why I am going to guess Willow's sexuality won't be much of an issue
next year. It's been two seasons and half of us still hate Dawn. A lot of us
hated Riley and some of us tolerated the usually useless Tara only because
Willow loved her. And now we're going to suddenly be asked to love a new
Willow-pal who will be on the show for the same reason as Tara - so that we'll
know Willow is gay? I think by now we've all got a handle on that by now (much
to the disappointment of that part of my id that wants Willow to be real and
live in the apartment next door to mine.) I am going to go out on a limb and
say there will be no new Willow-pal. I might be wrong. After all, I was
completely wrong about Season 6. I thought it would be fun.
john
Lord Usher
<20020426103720...@mb-fg.aol.com>...
> I'm currently of the opinion that JW and company don't give a flying fig
> what the fans, critics, ratings and anyone else say. They know what they
> like and what they want and they're going to do it. If they were at all
> worried about viewer reactions and concerns, they would not have shot a
> particular scene which is coming up in early May, a scene which caused
> Fox Television to lower the boom and insist on edits.
(SPOILERS for "Seeing Red" are below)
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Actually, I'd argue that the Spike/Buffy "attempted rape" scene
demonstrates that they *are* worried about viewer reactions and concerns.
If they didn't care that some fans see Spike as a heroic figure deserving
of Buffy's love, they wouldn't have to go to such lengths to disabuse them
of that notion.
And I do believe that's the true purpose of the scene. As Marti put it, "We
need to get in there and show people the difference between loving someone
who's good to be around and loving someone who's good."
--
Lord Usher
"Don't we kill 'em any more?"
Mrs. Poet
>Date: 4/27/2002 2:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <01c1ee34$e9359ec0$9eb02543@house-of-usher>
It's in character for them to come up with a scene in order to correct fan
perceptions. After all, Joss didn't like that fans took Xander seriously, so he
turned Xander into a butt monkey. However, they are not going to refrain from
shooting a disturbing pseudo-rape scene between two characters they probably
plan to get together romantically next year [Luke and Laura much?] out of fear
of losing viewers.
>And I do believe that's the true purpose of the scene. As Marti put it, "We
>need to get in there and show people the difference between loving someone
>who's good to be around and loving someone who's good."
>
They don't need to depict a rape or anything remotely like a rape to show the
difference between loving someone who is good to be around and loving someone
who is good.
It's illogical. They haven't shown Spike as particularaly good to be around
this year. Certainly depicting a pseudo-rape scene is not going to depict him
as "good to be around." So I don't think the pseudo-rape scene will achieve
what she is saying. If it's an actual attempted rape, as opposed to a
misunderstanding, it will show that Spike is evil. But I don't think it's
intended to show any differences.
I'd say that Marti was referring to As You Were...Spike may be good in bed, but
he's not good, as shown by his dealing in demonic eggs, so Buffy has to break
up with him. By the time of the pseudo-rape scene, they're apart, so what
message is being sent about being with someone, good, evil, or good to be
around?
JLB
to Africa for a soul. As I put it in another post he realizes that
without a soul their values systems are to different.
JLB
JLB
Forgot to add this. The funny thing about what they did with Xander
and pother characters is the only people who feel the way they want
them to are new viewers who never saw the character beforehand, I
think. THe rest just complain about bad writing of their favorite
characters.
JLB
Sleeper
Sam7777 <sam7...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b68a3c92.02042...@posting.google.com...
> I wish they had foillowed up on Dawn being the key. Thay major plot
> line has just been dropped.
The whole point of Season 5 was to introduce Dawn as Buffy's real, been
there all the time, sister. At the end of the season she had been de-keyed.
The plot line wasn't dropped. It had served it's purpose as a method of
inserting Dawn. Once they'd done that it was over. She was just Buffy's less
than interesting sister. The Key, Glory, the Knights were all just
background dressing.
With the season long arc people seem to have thought that it was going to go
somewhere and were disappointed by the lack of follow up. This was to
misinterpret the story line by assuming it was a show still about Buffy,
telling a tale designed to make an entertaining season rather than seeing it
for its true purpose as being a way of giving Buffy a sister.
Sleeper
--
'It's a library; only the stupid and the evil are afraid of those.'
The Bridge, Iain Banks
Sleeper
JVBGUY <jvb...@aol.comhatespam> wrote in message
news:20020426151544...@mb-ce.aol.com...
>
> I always wondered why exactly the decision came to make Willow gay. If it
> was just so Joss could put out messages in his stories, then it was the
> wrong thing to do. If you want to send a message, Sam Goldwyn used to
> say, use Western Union ("send a telegram" for anyone who is not familiar
> with Western Union).
I read an interview with Joss (can't remember in which magazine) where he
seemed to be pretty angry at Seth Green for leaving the show. He said he
'bailed' on them. Apparently Tara was already planned to be introduced and
they had already cast Amber Benson. Joss informed her that she was going to
be Willow's new lover. The interview made it sound like it was a sort of act
of revenge. Like if you're leaving then Willow's going to be gay naah-naah.
So the reason seems to be pettiness. Mind you from the interview it sounded
like he was getting progressively drunk throughout and it's hard to judge
how far gone he was at the time.
Paul Hammond
Mrs. Poet <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
> >Subject: Re: Keeping the gay vote (spoilery speculation)
> >From: "DarkMagic" slnosp...@yahoo.com
> >Date: 4/26/2002 12:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <p2iy8.202004$%l3.16...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>
> >
> >
> >"Mrs. Poet" <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
> >news:20020426103720...@mb-fg.aol.com...
> >> Shannon wrote:
> >>
> >> > From the few
> >> >interviews I've read with JW, Marti, etc... it would seem that ME is
> >getting
> >> >the message that the unrelenting gloom and doom approach doesn't have
> >mass
> >> >viewer appeal and that the occasional >pleasant outcome would be
> >refreshing.
> >>
> >> Hmm...what did they say that gave you that idea?
> >
> >According to Wanda, so take your grain of salt now, she spoke to JW about
> >the gloomy season and he said next season the show would revert to it's
> >lighter more humorous side.
>
> Lemme tell you why that's frightening.
>
> He said the same thing about S6. "I want more jokes" he said of S6,
because he
> supposedly wanted a change after the ultra serious S5. Maybe next season
David
> Lynch will direct a few eps. :)
>
Well, at least, then, it would be disconnected and nonsensical _on
purpose_
Paul
Sam7777
Sam7777
the key thing came outa the blue for me.
Sam7777
but I could be in the minority here. I don't think it's purposely
sending an anti-gay message. I think that it's purposely bad writing
to generate some drama in this flat season by killing the red shirt.
<snip>
> And the more I discover about the final episodes of this season, the more I
> doubt there will be any sort of turnaround that will magically "save" this
> season. And the less I look forward to Season 7. And it makes me wonder - am I
> the first person in this group to be a Season 7 Whiner, months before it is
> even here? If so, color me proud. :-)
>
Hey me too! Let's start a club and keep posting on this news group to
add some perspective to the "this season is a work of genius and Joss
is a god posters". We can't possibly be more whiny and annoying than
the character have become this season IMHO.
> >I though Joyce and Buffy was enough bumping off of characters to last
> >them a couple of seasons. I don't think that they are intentionally
> >trying to send that message but there it is.
>
> It seems that they have decided to forgo any and all happy endings these days,
> so I am not surprised if a character is going to be killed.
>
<snip>
I wonder if all this will impact the ratings for good or bad.
JVBGUY
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Sam777733 wrote:
>>
>May be not but I see dead people. A dead lesbian cliche to be precise
>but I could be in the minority here. I don't think it's purposely
>sending an anti-gay message. I think that it's purposely bad writing
>to generate some drama in this flat season by killing the red shirt.
Well, I'll certainly agree with that last sentence!
> We can't possibly be more whiny and annoying than
>the character have become this season IMHO.
And being a Season Seven Whiner can't possibly be any worse than being a
37-year-old STAR WARS geek who spends all his time on the Internet. (Take
that, George Lucas!)
>I wonder if all this will impact the ratings for good or bad.
I usually never wonder about ratings, and never even bother looking at them. I
am my own personal ratings system. If I like something, I'm happy. If I
don't, I whine.
john
JLB
something. I don't think killing Tara is necessarily anti-gay if
something happens between Xander and Willow as a result it would be.
It suggests being gay might just be a phase, until a person's true
love of another gender notices them. Now if Willow had just declared
herslef bisexual then it wouldn't have been so bad. But she was
shouting to the high heavens she was a lesbian.
JLB
Santa del Sangre
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To answer your question, copied below, Number 6 - RESET RESET RESET
> But one reason I hadn't foreseen was that they saw it as anti-gay.
> Several people pointed out that traditionally, even in the few cases
> where a gay relationship isn't portrayed as evil, it is portrayed as
> doomed. And they have a point IMO. Not necessarily about ME being
> anti-gay; ME sees all relationships as doomed. But taken in context
> with the historical portrayal of gays in contemporary popular culture,
> it is unfortunate.
>
> So, how is ME going to handle this? Assuming they are not just going
> to ignore it and let the gay chips fall where they may, what would you
> suggest they do to avoid sending an anti-gay message and/or alienating
> gay viewers?
>
> 1. Tara continues to be on the show in some undead state, possibly as
> a spirit guide and moral support for Willow. Also a punishment for
> Willow as Tara is now incorporeal. This is my favorite as it keeps
> Tara on the show and I like the character, but if I were ME I'd worry
> about the incorporeal part which has strong overtones of "it's OK for
> women to love women as long as they don't touch each other's naughty
> bits."
>
> 2. Tara continues in the way suggested above until Willow meets
> someone else, possibly that woman she saw kiss Tara in the college
> hallway. Then Tara gives the new union her blessing and drifts on to
> her reward. Sappy and very un-ME IMO, but more or less PC...I think.
> (I trust ME doesn't need to be told that having Willow return to Boys
> Town is off limits?)
>
> 3. Willow (re)devotes her life to the battle against the forces of
> evil, this time as a tribute to Tara's memory. She becomes a celibate
> pilgrim in the metaphysical world, seeking out new forces of light and
> new ways to fight the darkness. Kind of takes over Buffy's role, and
> I don't see Willow as being that sort of person. Much too human for
> sainthood. I could see her doing it for a while though, and then
> falling in love with someone new just when she least expects to.
>
> 4. Willow incorporates Tara into herself in some way so that they
> share the same body. Sort of the same problem as #1, but some sort of
> sexual activity would be possible, maybe?
>
> 5. Willow mopes through most of S7.
>
> 6. They do some sort of reset so Tara isn't dead.
>