AOQ Angel Review 1-10: "Parting Gifts"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads
ANGEL
Season One, Episode 10: "Parting Gifts"
(or "The eyes have it")
Writers: David Fury and Jeannine Renshaw
Director: James A. Contner
Well, seems that Quinn is still in the intro, which made me momentarily
think things might have not been so final. One of the gaps Doyle left
behind for the show was his visions and connection with the Powers That
Be, which were such a plotwise driving force. I was curious whether
they'd just drop that element, or what. Instead, the show makes a
choice that seems so obvious in retrospect but didn't occur to me;
pass the powers on (by mouth) to someone else. Rock Cordelia's world
a little by forcing this dubious gift upon her. Here she tries to
reject it, and momentarily flips out over the fear that Doyle was just
using her- both reactions are exactly what one would expect from the
character - but she won't be able to do that in the long term. End
result is that all the vague running plots can be preserved, and
there's plenty of potential character work to mine out of that too.
Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
motorcycle-riding demon hunter. The setup is a little long, since we
probably all figured out that it was Wesley long before the episode
told us so (fumbling with the weapons case was pretty much the final
giveaway). But in any case, our second-favorite ex-Watcher is now
styling himself a lone wolf demon hunter. It's both different enough
to be interesting, especially the initial attitude, and doesn't seem
too outlandish given his personality. Denisof's delivery is good for
some humor here, I think more so than on his BTVS appearances, and he
might actually be a better fit for ATS. We shall, of course, see.
A couple sequences which I liked a lot despite the goofiness -
Angel's rant about TV stereotypes of vampires is a real treat.
"[Sleeping in coffins is] a misconception made popular by hack
writers and ignorant media!" That's the angriest we've seen him
in awhile. No, I don't know why he'd feel any particular
identification to the rest of the vampiric world. It's still pretty
damn funny. Also funny in a silly way is the scene in which Cordelia
kisses Angel and he has to try to figure out what to make of it. On
the downside of the attempted humor element, although the commercial
audition is of course important, didn't much care for it going on as
long as it did.
This is one of those episodes that does things right and wrong in about
equal amounts. For instance...
Works: Cordelia quickly putting together why she's having visions,
and trying to pass them on to Angel in the part mentioned above.
But then: The kissing-everyone-in-sight gag long overstays its welcome.
Works: The levels of misdirection; we start with Barney, then learn
that Wesley's chasing someone else, then learn that he was wrong.
The idea that Barney's collecting the things for the purpose of
auctioning them off is a nice little unexpected detour. I kinda liked
the briefly-seen W&H lawyer too ("our merchandise was taken off the
market. Three guesses by whom").
But then: From the auction scene onward, it's pretty dull. Cordelia
trying to drive up her price does nothing for me. Nor do the five
hours of stalling while the demons are planning to get around to taking
out her eyes. This show can really move slowly sometimes.
Works: The way Wesley integrates into the team, and in particular the
way Angel responds to him. His reaction to the lucky happenstance of
Wesley showing up to translate is good; there's a job to be done, any
bickering can wait until later. He quickly comes to terms with the
fact that he was acting irrationally when storming off earlier. And
he's ready to smack Wesley upside the head with a bit of logic
whenever he starts to descend into self-pity.
But then: What the hell is the deal with the episode painting Wes as
some sort of badass in the early going, and then having that unfunny
display of ineptitude during the last fight? You can't have it both
ways, show. One Xander is plenty.
Works: Cordelia knows on some level that she can't act, blames
herself for Doyle's death on some level ("That is not true."
"No, but it feels true, doesn't it?"). And since Barney is a
Buffyverse villain, he's pleased to throw that in her face.
But then: I don't actually have a counter-complaint here. Except
that the lighting during the scene where he has her bent over the table
tying her hands is bad enough that I couldn't tell what was going on.
Works: Both the Cordy stuff and the Wesley stuff are smart moves for
the series as a whole.
But then: Why isn't this episode more interesting? I consider PG to
be this series' equivalent of "The Initiative" sans controversial
jokes - I liked the idea of its story better than I liked actually
watching it.
So Angel speaks fluent Korean, but with a clear American accent.
Discuss, minimizing references to the realities of TV.
Really really picayunish question; are there auctions that fluctuate at
will between having the auctioneer set the next-bid amount and letting
the bidder do it? And I was as anxious as anyone else to end the
scene, but it really is necessary to do the "going once..." thing
before selling an item.
The final scene, in which Wesley is fluttering about hoping someone
will "convince" him to stick around, is good for a smile.
"He's a good cook for someone on a liquid diet."
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- The little callback to "The Puppet Show"
- "First off you should know right away before there is any
misunderstanding. I'm a demon." "I appreciate the candor."
- Angel's solution to being held at crossbow-point
So...
One-sentence summary: Well, it moves things along.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season One so far:
1) "City Of" - Good
2) "Lonely Hearts" - Weak
3) "Into The Dark" - Good
4) "I Fall To Pieces" - Good
5) "Rm W/ A Vu" - Decent
6) "Sense And Sensitivity" - Weak
7) "The Bachelor Party" - Decent
8) "I Will Remember You" - Excellent
9) "Hero" - Good
10) "Parting Gifts" - Decent]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
whats a lone wolf demon?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > styling himself a lone wolf demon hunter. It's both different enough
>
> whats a lone wolf demon?
It opens treasure chests and throws potential allies off cliffs.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
chuck norris doesnt have potential allies
he has potential lackeys
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
One Bit Shy
news:1146535967....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 10: "Parting Gifts"
> (or "The eyes have it")
> Writers: David Fury and Jeannine Renshaw
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Well, seems that Quinn is still in the intro, which made me momentarily
> think things might have not been so final. One of the gaps Doyle left
> behind for the show was his visions and connection with the Powers That
> Be, which were such a plotwise driving force. I was curious whether
> they'd just drop that element, or what. Instead, the show makes a
> choice that seems so obvious in retrospect but didn't occur to me;
> pass the powers on (by mouth) to someone else. Rock Cordelia's world
> a little by forcing this dubious gift upon her.
There's a little CGI flash when they kiss. I missed it the first time.
> Here she tries to
> reject it, and momentarily flips out over the fear that Doyle was just
> using her- both reactions are exactly what one would expect from the
> character - but she won't be able to do that in the long term. End
> result is that all the vague running plots can be preserved, and
> there's plenty of potential character work to mine out of that too.
The way this episode plays I think Cordelia is being set up to have no
choice but to do something different. I'm struggling a little getting my
arms around the idea of her being the vision queen. On the other hand, she
always was a bit jealous of Buffy (oh, excuse me, is this an envy moment?)
and now she gets to be a prophecy girl herself.
> Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
> motorcycle-riding demon hunter. The setup is a little long, since we
> probably all figured out that it was Wesley long before the episode
> told us so (fumbling with the weapons case was pretty much the final
> giveaway).
Damn. I didn't have a clue until I saw his face. With all the work being
done to (I thought) separate the show from Buffy, I wasn't expecting another
Buffy graduate to be the next main character.
> But in any case, our second-favorite ex-Watcher is now
> styling himself a lone wolf demon hunter.
*Rogue* demon hunter!
> It's both different enough
> to be interesting, especially the initial attitude, and doesn't seem
> too outlandish given his personality. Denisof's delivery is good for
> some humor here, I think more so than on his BTVS appearances, and he
> might actually be a better fit for ATS. We shall, of course, see.
I liked Wesley in BtVS as a character in himself, but frequently didn't like
the way he fit in. I'm a bit concerned about such a seemingly weak
character joining Angel's team. (He is joining isn't he?) But you're
right. We'll see. He has gone through some stuff and at least seems to
want to improve. I do think his tough guy look is very funny. "These
pants, they tend to chafe one's... legs."
> A couple sequences which I liked a lot despite the goofiness -
> Angel's rant about TV stereotypes of vampires is a real treat.
> "[Sleeping in coffins is] a misconception made popular by hack
> writers and ignorant media!" That's the angriest we've seen him
> in awhile. No, I don't know why he'd feel any particular
> identification to the rest of the vampiric world. It's still pretty
> damn funny.
That's good. And I like the idea of their whole conversation. But,
honestly, Angel's low-key delivery gets kind of dull with all the words he
has to use. (And Barney is one of the sillier looking demons in my book.)
> Also funny in a silly way is the scene in which Cordelia
> kisses Angel and he has to try to figure out what to make of it. On
> the downside of the attempted humor element, although the commercial
> audition is of course important, didn't much care for it going on as
> long as it did.
It does go on too long. Which I think is a real shame because I think the
elements are very funny.
> This is one of those episodes that does things right and wrong in about
> equal amounts. For instance...
>
> Works: Cordelia quickly putting together why she's having visions,
> and trying to pass them on to Angel in the part mentioned above.
> But then: The kissing-everyone-in-sight gag long overstays its welcome.
Can't agree with that. There's only two more guys. One -ick- demon kiss
and then Wesley, which has its own built in humor from their last kiss.
Cordy is also good venting about the visions while she talks about her
ruined audition for the "national".
> Works: The levels of misdirection; we start with Barney, then learn
> that Wesley's chasing someone else, then learn that he was wrong.
> The idea that Barney's collecting the things for the purpose of
> auctioning them off is a nice little unexpected detour. I kinda liked
> the briefly-seen W&H lawyer too ("our merchandise was taken off the
> market. Three guesses by whom").
I like that line too. Though I'm starting to get impatient for W&H to start
becoming real players.
> But then: From the auction scene onward, it's pretty dull. Cordelia
> trying to drive up her price does nothing for me. Nor do the five
> hours of stalling while the demons are planning to get around to taking
> out her eyes. This show can really move slowly sometimes.
Can't argue with that. The pacing is terrible. Not much of a fight.
> Works: The way Wesley integrates into the team, and in particular the
> way Angel responds to him. His reaction to the lucky happenstance of
> Wesley showing up to translate is good; there's a job to be done, any
> bickering can wait until later. He quickly comes to terms with the
> fact that he was acting irrationally when storming off earlier. And
> he's ready to smack Wesley upside the head with a bit of logic
> whenever he starts to descend into self-pity.
Doesn't work that well for me yet. He's awfully pathetic. But I'm
hopefull.
> But then: What the hell is the deal with the episode painting Wes as
> some sort of badass in the early going, and then having that unfunny
> display of ineptitude during the last fight? You can't have it both
> ways, show. One Xander is plenty.
This doesn't bother me at all. He wasn't really painted as a badass.
Wesley painted himself as a badass. B-i-i-i-g difference. And funniest
thing in the episode. The show did depict him as knowledgeble and
tenacious - that's what confused Barney.
> Works: Cordelia knows on some level that she can't act, blames
> herself for Doyle's death on some level ("That is not true."
> "No, but it feels true, doesn't it?"). And since Barney is a
> Buffyverse villain, he's pleased to throw that in her face.
That was pretty brutal to Cordy. "All self-absorbed, full of regret. Poor,
poor you. Poor little Cordelia with her delusions of an acting career."
She got a dose of that from the ghost too. I don't know when something's
going to happen, but this has got to be setting something up.
An interesting aspect is that Barney also set Cordelia straight about
Doyle's "gift".
Cordy: I'm never going to forgive him for doing this to me.
Barney: What? Choosing you? Trusting you with an enormous responsibility?
Believing that you where the only one worthy of such a rare and important
gift?
Cordy: Did I mention the drooling?
Barney: I get the impression that Doyle didn't have much by way of
possessions?
Cordy: No. No he didn't.
Barney: Seems like he gave you the most valuable thing he had.
Those pesky evil demons with all their insight.
> But then: I don't actually have a counter-complaint here. Except
> that the lighting during the scene where he has her bent over the table
> tying her hands is bad enough that I couldn't tell what was going on.
>
> Works: Both the Cordy stuff and the Wesley stuff are smart moves for
> the series as a whole.
> But then: Why isn't this episode more interesting? I consider PG to
> be this series' equivalent of "The Initiative" sans controversial
> jokes - I liked the idea of its story better than I liked actually
> watching it.
It works pretty well for me until the kidnapping. Then it declines. The
gray blobby thing is fun to say but kind of a ridiculous clue to track her
down.
> So Angel speaks fluent Korean, but with a clear American accent.
> Discuss, minimizing references to the realities of TV.
>
> Really really picayunish question; are there auctions that fluctuate at
> will between having the auctioneer set the next-bid amount and letting
> the bidder do it? And I was as anxious as anyone else to end the
> scene, but it really is necessary to do the "going once..." thing
> before selling an item.
>
> The final scene, in which Wesley is fluttering about hoping someone
> will "convince" him to stick around, is good for a smile.
> "He's a good cook for someone on a liquid diet."
I didn't really enjoy Wesley being that pathetic.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - The little callback to "The Puppet Show"
> - "First off you should know right away before there is any
> misunderstanding. I'm a demon." "I appreciate the candor."
> - Angel's solution to being held at crossbow-point
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Well, it moves things along.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I agree. But, on the whole, I think it's hopeful for the future even though
there are now two fixer-uppers in Angel's office.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1146535967....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> motorcycle-riding demon hunter.
When all seemed lost, a dark stranger rode into town, a man on a mission. A
man called Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.
> Works: Cordelia quickly putting together why she's having visions,
> and trying to pass them on to Angel in the part mentioned above.
> But then: The kissing-everyone-in-sight gag long overstays its welcome.
I loved Cordelia as the kissing bandit.
> Works: The levels of misdirection; we start with Barney, then learn
> that Wesley's chasing someone else, then learn that he was wrong.
> The idea that Barney's collecting the things for the purpose of
> auctioning them off is a nice little unexpected detour. I kinda liked
> the briefly-seen W&H lawyer too ("our merchandise was taken off the
> market. Three guesses by whom").
Yeah, but she folded pretty easy on the issue of paying an extra $1000 to
have the eyes removed. And she didn't even get approval for it. I bet that
$1000 is coming out of her salary. Even apart from her negotiation skills,
I'm sure W&H have the capacity to do an eye extraction in-house for a lot
less than $1000. They must have a Regan and Cornwall somewhere in their
organisation.
> But then: From the auction scene onward, it's pretty dull. Cordelia
> trying to drive up her price does nothing for me. Nor do the five
> hours of stalling while the demons are planning to get around to taking
> out her eyes. This show can really move slowly sometimes.
Cordelia is of course not just trying to drive up the price (although thats
important to her). Mostly she wants to delay the end of the auction, because
at that point she's likely to lose her eyes unless Angel rescues her first.
> Works: The way Wesley integrates into the team, and in particular the
> way Angel responds to him. His reaction to the lucky happenstance of
> Wesley showing up to translate is good; there's a job to be done, any
> bickering can wait until later. He quickly comes to terms with the
> fact that he was acting irrationally when storming off earlier. And
> he's ready to smack Wesley upside the head with a bit of logic
> whenever he starts to descend into self-pity.
> But then: What the hell is the deal with the episode painting Wes as
> some sort of badass in the early going, and then having that unfunny
> display of ineptitude during the last fight? You can't have it both
> ways, show. One Xander is plenty.
Well, there is a theory that some people find it amusing when there is a big
set up followed by a less than stellar performance. Big hat, no cattle.
> Works: Cordelia knows on some level that she can't act, blames
> herself for Doyle's death on some level ("That is not true."
> "No, but it feels true, doesn't it?"). And since Barney is a
> Buffyverse villain, he's pleased to throw that in her face.
> But then: I don't actually have a counter-complaint here. Except
> that the lighting during the scene where he has her bent over the table
> tying her hands is bad enough that I couldn't tell what was going on.
>
> Works: Both the Cordy stuff and the Wesley stuff are smart moves for
> the series as a whole.
> But then: Why isn't this episode more interesting? I consider PG to
> be this series' equivalent of "The Initiative" sans controversial
> jokes - I liked the idea of its story better than I liked actually
> watching it.
>
> So Angel speaks fluent Korean, but with a clear American accent.
> Discuss, minimizing references to the realities of TV.
He's 240 years old. And most of that time, it would have been bad for his
health to stay too long in one place, so he's travelled.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - The little callback to "The Puppet Show"
> - "First off you should know right away before there is any
> misunderstanding. I'm a demon." "I appreciate the candor."
> - Angel's solution to being held at crossbow-point
> One-sentence summary: Well, it moves things along.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'd rate it a little better than that. I'd call it Good, even though it is
certainly closer to Decent than to Excellent. To me, its the 19th best AtS
episode, and sadly, the best in Season 1. Sadly because I agree with you
that it is really not all that good, and a Season ought to have a better
episode than this. All of the other 11 Buffyverse seasons have at least one
episode better than this. Even the horrible one. But, on the plus side,
Season 1 avoids going to the depths some other seasons do (especially the
horrible one), and so avoids being the weakest season on my averaged
ratings.
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1146535967....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> > episodes in these review threads
> >
> >
> > Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
> > motorcycle-riding demon hunter.
>
> When all seemed lost, a dark stranger rode into town, a man on a mission. A
> man called Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.
From the bad lands came the killer
He lived by the knife and the gun
He'd cut you just for standing
And shoot ya if ya tried to run
He was big as a tree and did as he pleased
And everything he did was bad
And they said if you was to kill him
It'd only make him mad
From the good lands came the cowgirl
Patti was her name
She was hot on the trail of that killer
On a moped she called Flame
Coz the killer had killed her daddy
For spittin' in the road
You only had to kill her daddy once
To get that girl P.O.'d
- Jim Stafford
- Cow Patti
eli...@gmail.com
The Dark') that I felt an urge to re-watch.
It's not brilliant, but I really, really like it. And the kissing gag
is fabulous, sorry. Especially the one with Wesley that indeed turns
out a _lot_ better than the previous one! I'd probably go with 'good'
but then it's hard to separate appreciation from nostalgia. *sigh*
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1146535967....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Works: Cordelia knows on some level that she can't act, blames
> > herself for Doyle's death on some level ("That is not true."
> > "No, but it feels true, doesn't it?"). And since Barney is a
> > Buffyverse villain, he's pleased to throw that in her face.
>
> That was pretty brutal to Cordy. "All self-absorbed, full of regret. Poor,
> poor you. Poor little Cordelia with her delusions of an acting career."
> She got a dose of that from the ghost too. I don't know when something's
> going to happen, but this has got to be setting something up.
>
> An interesting aspect is that Barney also set Cordelia straight about
> Doyle's "gift".
>
> Cordy: I'm never going to forgive him for doing this to me.
> Barney: What? Choosing you? Trusting you with an enormous responsibility?
> Believing that you where the only one worthy of such a rare and important
> gift?
> Cordy: Did I mention the drooling?
> Barney: I get the impression that Doyle didn't have much by way of
> possessions?
> Cordy: No. No he didn't.
> Barney: Seems like he gave you the most valuable thing he had.
>
> Those pesky evil demons with all their insight.
Or another in a long line of evil demons that's good at flinging the
bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie. Why not
this too?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
eli...@gmail.com
Orggre guna 'Svir ol Svir'? Naq 'Oyvaq Qngr' naq 'Gb Funafuh va YN'?
How strange.
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> lone wolf demon hunter
*rogue* demon hunter (hence the question: "What's a rogue demon?")
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Apteryx
news:1146550151.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >the best in Season 1
>
> Orggre guna 'Svir ol Svir'? Naq 'Oyvaq Qngr' naq 'Gb Funafuh va YN'?
>
> How strange.
Well, my ratings for AtS are still pretty fluid, with pretty large movements
up and down each time I see them, so there is still a chance there will be a
new "best" by the time I finish rewatching this time. Svir ol svir cebonoyl
unf gur orfg punapr - V'yy or vagrerfgrq va frrvat ubj vg ybbxf jura V frr
vg guvf gvzr.
Cneg bs gur ernfba jul V guvax Cnegvat Tvsgf trgf vgf abfr va sebag bs n
snveyl nirentr cnpx vf gung vg vf gur fgneg bs Jrfyrl'f terng wbhearl
--
Apteryx
eli...@gmail.com
>snveyl nirentr cnpx vf gung vg vf gur fgneg bs Jrfyrl'f terng wbhearl
Nu lrf, Jrfyrl'f wbhearl vf vaqrrq nznmvat. Naq V thrff guvf vf nyfb
gur fgneg bs Pbeqryvn'f va fbzr jnlf.
Fgvyy vg qbrfa'g unir gur rzbgvbany qrcgu bs 'Svir ol Svir'... (V ybir
Snvgu'f wbhearl gbb!)
Bu naq V zrnag gb nfx lbh - juvpu vf lbhe yrnfg snibhevgr frnfba?
kenm47
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 10: "Parting Gifts"
> (or "The eyes have it")
> Writers: David Fury and Jeannine Renshaw
> Director: James A. Contner
>
<SNIP>
>
> One-sentence summary: Well, it moves things along.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
This one I'm close enough with everything in the review to just say
"Agreed." Not a favorite episode.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Apteryx
news:1146571216.2...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Frnfba sbhe bs Natry vf zl yrnfg snibhevgr ol dhvgr n pbzsbegnoyr znetva.
Ohg rira vg unf Fcva gur Obggyr naq n srj bgure tbbq barf. Vgf gur
Ornfg/Znfgre fgbelyvar gung fjvgpurf zr bss, evtug hc hagvy Serq frrf
guebhtu Wnfzvar, jurer vg fgnegf gb cvpx hc ntnva.
--
Apteryx
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> But then: What the hell is the deal with the episode painting Wes as
> some sort of badass in the early going, and then having that unfunny
> display of ineptitude during the last fight? You can't have it both
> ways, show. One Xander is plenty.
Where in the early going did you ever get the impression anyone but
Wesley thought Wesley was a bad-ass?
> Works: Both the Cordy stuff and the Wesley stuff are smart moves for
> the series as a whole.
50/50. I'll let you discover that on your own.
> The final scene, in which Wesley is fluttering about hoping someone
> will "convince" him to stick around, is good for a smile.
> "He's a good cook for someone on a liquid diet."
"After an all-nighter of fighting evil, we get eggs!"
Baffles me why you don't like her.
> AOQ rating: Decent
Yeah, maybe even good.
-- Terry
Lord Usher
news:dsample-CBB9B7...@news.giganews.com:
>> Cordy: I'm never going to forgive him for doing this to me.
>> Barney: What? Choosing you? Trusting you with an enormous
>> responsibility? Believing that you where the only one worthy of such
>> a rare and important gift?
>> Cordy: Did I mention the drooling?
>> Barney: I get the impression that Doyle didn't have much by way of
>> possessions?
>> Cordy: No. No he didn't.
>> Barney: Seems like he gave you the most valuable thing he had.
>>
>> Those pesky evil demons with all their insight.
>
> Or another in a long line of evil demons that's good at flinging the
> bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie. Why not
> this too?
Erm... because it's clearly true?
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
gree...@gmail.com
Lord Usher wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in
> news:dsample-CBB9B7...@news.giganews.com:
> > Or another in a long line of evil demons that's good at flinging the
> > bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie. Why not
> > this too?
>
> Erm... because it's clearly true?
Vg jnf pyrneyl gehr hagvy Jurqba erjebgr _Natry_'f cerzvfr gb vapyhqr
Wnfzvar'f pbageby bire nyy guvatf eryngvat gb Pbeqryvn naq gur ivfvbaf.
Fb lbh xabj, vg ernyyl jnfa'g rira yvxr Qblyr unq n pubvpr; vg jnf nyy
Wnfzvar.
Trr, jnfa'g frnfba sbhe terng?
-- Terry
Espen Schjønberg
> Vg jnf pyrneyl gehr hagvy Jurqba erjebgr _Natry_'f cerzvfr gb vapyhqr
> Wnfzvar'f pbageby bire nyy guvatf eryngvat gb Pbeqryvn naq gur ivfvbaf.
> Fb lbh xabj, vg ernyyl jnfa'g rira yvxr Qblyr unq n pubvpr; vg jnf nyy
> Wnfzvar.
>
> Trr, jnfa'g frnfba sbhe terng?
V xvaq bs npprcgrq guvf wnfzvar-guvat nsgre n juvyr, nsgre nyy znl gur
tbqf abg or irel ohfl jvgu guvf jbeyq. Ohg V sryg vg jnf abg gur zbfg
inyhnoyr guvat nalzber nsgre gurl yrg jbysenz naq uneg unpx vagb pbeql
va frnfba guerr. Juvpu vf na rcvfbqr V ernyyl ernyyl ubcr sbe n ONQ
engvat sbe.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Arbitrar Of Quality
Apteryx wrote:
> I'd rate it a little better than that. I'd call it Good, even though it is
> certainly closer to Decent than to Excellent. To me, its the 19th best AtS
> episode, and sadly, the best in Season 1. Sadly because I agree with you
> that it is really not all that good, and a Season ought to have a better
> episode than this. All of the other 11 Buffyverse seasons have at least one
> episode better than this. Even the horrible one.
That'd be really depressing if this were the best of the year. Granted
I'm not too worried given that I've liked five of the other nine so far
better than PG - we have slightly different tastes, huh? Just a
little.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On the other hand, she
> always was a bit jealous of Buffy (oh, excuse me, is this an envy moment?)
> and now she gets to be a prophecy girl herself.
Yeah, that'd be envy. Although I don't think she ever envied Buffy for
the supernatural stuff. It should be a good different situation
because although Buffy was like a young Cordelia pre-Slayage too, she's
a natural-born hero (and her powers were cooler); we'll see hwo Cordy
reacts in the long term.
> > Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
> > motorcycle-riding demon hunter. The setup is a little long, since we
> > probably all figured out that it was Wesley long before the episode
> > told us so (fumbling with the weapons case was pretty much the final
> > giveaway).
>
> Damn. I didn't have a clue until I saw his face.
Not even after Denisof was in the opening titles?
> I liked Wesley in BtVS as a character in himself, but frequently didn't like
> the way he fit in. I'm a bit concerned about such a seemingly weak
> character joining Angel's team. (He is joining isn't he?) But you're
> right. We'll see.
Yeah, two primarily wimpy comic-relief types in a cast of three? Seems
like a lot.
> > But then: What the hell is the deal with the episode painting Wes as
> > some sort of badass in the early going, and then having that unfunny
> > display of ineptitude during the last fight? You can't have it both
> > ways, show. One Xander is plenty.
>
> This doesn't bother me at all. He wasn't really painted as a badass.
> Wesley painted himself as a badass. B-i-i-i-g difference. And funniest
> thing in the episode. The show did depict him as knowledgeble and
> tenacious - that's what confused Barney.
Maybe. I'm still not big on other characters giving "this guy's
*good*" speeches.
> I didn't really enjoy Wesley being that pathetic.
You do remember that this is Wesley we're talking about here, right?
If you have as many problems as it sounds like with the show playing up
his loser-ish tendencies, what about "Bad Girls," "Graduation Day," and
so on?
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
I don't know that there's any actual insight at all - aside from the
known fact that Cordelia really is self-absorbed and the vision thing
probably was Doyle's most important possession - albeit not necessarily
a good thing.
The greater clue to me is simply the BtVS tradition of using demons to
pass along hard messages to the characters, and some suggestion that
this series would do the same thing. (Such as the ghost's words to
Cordelia.)
But, sure. Barney could be bullshitting. We'll see.
OBS
Lord Usher
@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
Bu, terng. Gur "Wnfzvar ehvarq rirelguvat" qrongr vf onpx. :)
Gurer'f n ovt qvssrerapr orgjrra *sbepvat* fbzrbar gb qb fbzrguvat, naq
fvzcyl npgvat ba gur xabjyrqtr gung gurl'yy qb vg. Qblyr'f pubvpr vf ab
yrff trahvar, naq uvf jvyy vf ab yrff serr, fvzcyl orpnhfr fbzr cerfpvrag
ragvgl xarj vg'f jung ur'q qb tvira gur pvephzfgnaprf.
Naq gung'f abg whfg fbzr fvyyl snajnax. Gur abgvba gung serr jvyy rkvfgf
rira va yvtug bs gur bavpvrapr naq bzavcbgrapr bs Tbq -- gung'f n ivgny
nfcrpg bs arneyl rirel znwbe eryvtvbhf cuvybfbcul.
Jeff Jacoby
Fxvc vf nyfb cerggl tbbq ng syvatvat gur ohyyfuvg. Fb znlor
ur'f gur ovttre yvne naq Onearl'f fgngrzrag fgvyy ubyqf gehr.
Jeff
Espen Schjønberg
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>
>>I liked Wesley in BtVS as a character in himself, but frequently didn't like
>>the way he fit in. I'm a bit concerned about such a seemingly weak
>>character joining Angel's team. (He is joining isn't he?) But you're
>>right. We'll see.
>
>
> Yeah, two primarily wimpy comic-relief types in a cast of three? Seems
> like a lot.
Well, I am sure you will realize Cordy is tough enough to carry those
two wimps.
gree...@gmail.com
Lord Usher wrote:
> gree...@gmail.com wrote in news:1146581817.242864.184050
> @e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Lord Usher wrote:
> >> Erm... because it's clearly true?
> >
> > Vg jnf pyrneyl gehr hagvy Jurqba erjebgr _Natry_'f cerzvfr gb vapyhqr
> > Wnfzvar'f pbageby bire nyy guvatf eryngvat gb Pbeqryvn naq gur ivfvbaf.
> > Fb lbh xabj, vg ernyyl jnfa'g rira yvxr Qblyr unq n pubvpr; vg jnf nyy
> > Wnfzvar.
>
> Bu, terng. Gur "Wnfzvar ehvarq rirelguvat" qrongr vf onpx. :)
There's a debate about that? ;)
> Gurer'f n ovt qvssrerapr orgjrra *sbepvat* fbzrbar gb qb fbzrguvat, naq
> fvzcyl npgvat ba gur xabjyrqtr gung gurl'yy qb vg. Qblyr'f pubvpr vf ab
> yrff trahvar, naq uvf jvyy vf ab yrff serr, fvzcyl orpnhfr fbzr cerfpvrag
> ragvgl xarj vg'f jung ur'q qb tvira gur pvephzfgnaprf.
>
> Naq gung'f abg whfg fbzr fvyyl snajnax. Gur abgvba gung serr jvyy rkvfgf
> rira va yvtug bs gur bavpvrapr naq bzavcbgrapr bs Tbq -- gung'f n ivgny
> nfcrpg bs arneyl rirel znwbe eryvtvbhf cuvybfbcul.
Gehr rabhtu. Ohg _Natry_'f rkcynangvba yrsg ab ebbz sbe serr jvyy. Fxvc
fnvq Wnfzvar *pbagebyyrq* jung unccrarq, gung qrpvfvbaf jrer znqr sbe
Pbeqryvn. (Naq, bar vf sbeprq gb nffhzr, rirelbar/rirelguvat ryfr vg'q
gnxr gb trg Pbeqryvn jurer fur jnf.) Gung pynvz erznvarq haershgrq. Fb
bxnl, bhgfvqr gur _Natry_ havirefr, na bzavfprag naq bzavcbgrag Tbq pna
nyybj Uvf cyna gb hasbyq jvgu gur sberxabjyrqtr bs jung jvyy or. Vafvqr
bs vg gubhtu, Jurqba erzbirq gung bcgvba va snibe bs znxvat Wnfzvar
rira zber... jryy, jungrire fur jnf.
Naljnl, V fhccbfr Onearl pbhyq or gryyvat gur gehgu va gung ur qbrf
oryvrir Qblyr qvq jung ur qvq sbe gur ernfba Onearl fnvq, ohg vg'f
fgvyy ohyyfuvg. Abj.
-- Terry
eli...@gmail.com
>bs vg gubhtu, Jurqba erzbirq gung bcgvba va snibe bs znxvat Wnfzvar
>rira zber... jryy, jungrire fur jnf.
Lrf naq ab... urer\'f jung Thaa fnlf va \'Vafvqr Bhg\' juvpu V guvax vf
gur npghny zrffntr (jryy jenccrq-hc gubhtu vg vf):
SERQ: Jvyy vg znxr n qvssrerapr? Jr ernyyl ner whfg cvrprf orvat zbirq
nebhaq n obneq.
THAA: Gura jr\'yy xvpx vg bire naq fgneg n arj tnzr. Ybbx, zbabpuebzr
pna lnc nyy ur jnagf nobhg ab-anzr\'f pbfzvp cyna, ohg urer\'f n yvggyr
fbzrguvat V cvpxrq hc ehoovat zbwbf gurfr cnfg pbhcyr bs lrnef. Gur
svany fpber pna\'g or evttrq. V qba\'g pner ubj znal cynlref lbh
ternfr, gung ynfg fubg nyjnlf pbzrf hc n dhrfgvba znex. Ohg urer\'f gur
guvat-lbh arire xabj jura lbh\'er gnxvat vg. Vg pbhyq or jura lbh\'er
qhxvat vg bhg jvgu gur Yrtvba bs Qbbz, be whfg pebffvat gur fgerrg
qrpvqvat jurer gb unir oehapu. Fb lbh whfg gerng vg nyy yvxr vg jnf hc
gb lbh-gur jbeyq va gur onynapr-\'pnhfr lbh arire xabj jura vg vf.
Gur cbvag bs Wnfzvar vf gung fur gnxrf njnl serr jvyy, fbzrguvat gurl
svtug jvgu nyy gurl\'ir tbg.
Vs NgF unf nal zrffntr ng nyy, vg'f qrsvavgryl:
'Vs abguvat jr qb znggref, gura nyy gung znggref vf jung jr qb.'
Ah, how I love my show...
Don Sample
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
How clear was it? I think that Doyle just wanted to kiss Cordy. He had
no thought about passing on the visions. They just got passed along
with it, like herpes.
gree...@gmail.com
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
> Gur cbvag bs Wnfzvar vf gung fur gnxrf njnl serr jvyy, fbzrguvat gurl
> svtug jvgu nyy gurl\'ir tbg.
Jryy, lrnu, gung'f zl cbvag nf jryy: Wnfzvar gbbx njnl gurve serr jvyy,
be ng yrnfg Pbeql'f. Nsgre nyy, rira vs Qblyr unq n pubvpr jurgure be
abg gb cnff ba gur ivfvbaf, ab bar nfxrq Pbeql vs fur jnagrq gurz hagvy
sne yngre, jura fur jnf tbvat gb tvir gurz gur nafjre gurl jnagrq
naljnl. Fb, lbh xabj, jurer'f gur serr jvyy?
Naq gung'f jul _Natry_ jrag sebz bar bs gur orfg guvatf ba GI gb whfg
nabgure fbnc bcren.
-- Terry
shuggie
Sam
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Jryy, lrnu, gung'f zl cbvag nf jryy: Wnfzvar gbbx njnl gurve serr jvyy,
> be ng yrnfg Pbeql'f. Nsgre nyy, rira vs Qblyr unq n pubvpr jurgure be
> abg gb cnff ba gur ivfvbaf, ab bar nfxrq Pbeql vs fur jnagrq gurz hagvy
> sne yngre, jura fur jnf tbvat gb tvir gurz gur nafjre gurl jnagrq
> naljnl. Fb, lbh xabj, jurer'f gur serr jvyy?
>
> Naq gung'f jul _Natry_ jrag sebz bar bs gur orfg guvatf ba GI gb whfg
> nabgure fbnc bcren.
>
> -- Terry
Wnfzvar qvqa'g gnxr njnl Pbeqryvn'f serr jvyy va gur frafr gung lbh
zrna vg. Fur neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn jbhyq hfr ure
serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq
guvatf bhg. Pbeqryvn jnf fgvyy znxvat ubarfg qrpvfvbaf. Wnfzvar jnfa'g
zvaq pbagebyyvat ure (lrg).
Boivbhfyl, gur vqrn bs serr jvyy rkvfgvat fvzhygnarbhf jvgu n qvivar
cyna vf cnenqbkvpny -- eryvtvbhf crbcyr unir orra qrongvat guvf bar sbe
lrnef. Gung'f gur jubyr cbvag bs gur Wnfzvar fgbel, nsgre nyy.
Ohg fnlvat gung gur zrer rkvfgrapr bs n qvivar cyna, naq gung gur
punenpgref' npgvbaf jrer cneg bs gung cyna, vainyvqngrf nyy bs gur
rneyvre fgbevrf vf bar gung zvtug envfr n srj rlroebjf nzbat gur
(cebonoyl snveyl ynetr) cbegvba bs gur arjftebhc jub oryvrir gung
gurer'f n qvivar cyna orvat ranpgrq ol na bzavfpvrag orvat va gur erny
jbeyq.
--Sam
Don Sample
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Gehr rabhtu. Ohg _Natry_'f rkcynangvba yrsg ab ebbz sbe serr jvyy. Fxvc
> fnvq Wnfzvar *pbagebyyrq* jung unccrarq, gung qrpvfvbaf jrer znqr sbe
> Pbeqryvn. (Naq, bar vf sbeprq gb nffhzr, rirelbar/rirelguvat ryfr vg'q
> gnxr gb trg Pbeqryvn jurer fur jnf.) Gung pynvz erznvarq haershgrq. Fb
> bxnl, bhgfvqr gur _Natry_ havirefr, na bzavfprag naq bzavcbgrag Tbq pna
> nyybj Uvf cyna gb hasbyq jvgu gur sberxabjyrqtr bs jung jvyy or. Vafvqr
> bs vg gubhtu, Jurqba erzbirq gung bcgvba va snibe bs znxvat Wnfzvar
> rira zber... jryy, jungrire fur jnf.
They're demons. They lied.
>
> Anyway, I suppose Barney could be telling the truth in that he does
> believe Doyle did what he did for the reason Barney said, but it's
> still bullshit. Now.
I still haven't seen any evidence that Doyle deliberately passed the
visions to Cordelia.
Don Sample
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Vs NgF unf nal zrffntr ng nyy, vg'f qrsvavgryl:
> 'Vs abguvat jr qb znggref, gura nyy gung znggref vf jung jr qb.'
Rkprcg gurl gbff gung bhg va gur yngre frnfbaf, naq Natry tbrf onpx gb
gelvat gb svk rirelguvat jvgu gur tenaq trfgher, naq qrfgeblf uvzfrys
naq rirelbar ryfr nebhaq uvz va gur cebprff.
eli...@gmail.com
I was actually going to quote this:
Fb jung ner jr, urycyrff? Chccrgf? Ab. Gur ovt zbzragf ner
tbaan pbzr. Lbh pna\'g uryc gung. Vg\'f jung lbh qb nsgrejneqf gung
pbhagf. Gung\'f jura lbh svaq bhg jub lbh ner.
Juvfgyre, Orpbzvat.
Don Sample
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wnfzvar qvqa'g gnxr njnl Pbeqryvn'f serr jvyy va gur frafr gung lbh
> zrna vg. Fur neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn jbhyq hfr ure
> serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq
> guvatf bhg. Pbeqryvn jnf fgvyy znxvat ubarfg qrpvfvbaf. Wnfzvar jnfa'g
> zvaq pbagebyyvat ure (lrg).
Bapr ntnva, jr xabj gung 90% bs jung Fxvc fnvq jnf yvrf, be ohyyfuvg.
Fb jul oryvrir gur bgure 10%?
kenm47
V unq sbetbggra ubj onqyl gur Wnfzvar guvat fperjrq guvatf hc. Gunaxf
sbe gur erzvaqref.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Sam
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1146590816.2...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Wnfzvar qvqa'g gnxr njnl Pbeqryvn'f serr jvyy va gur frafr gung lbh
> > zrna vg. Fur neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn jbhyq hfr ure
> > serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq
> > guvatf bhg. Pbeqryvn jnf fgvyy znxvat ubarfg qrpvfvbaf. Wnfzvar jnfa'g
> > zvaq pbagebyyvat ure (lrg).
>
> Bapr ntnva, jr xabj gung 90% bs jung Fxvc fnvq jnf yvrf, be ohyyfuvg.
> Fb jul oryvrir gur bgure 10%?
To bring the conversation full circle, back to Lord Usher's post:
"Erm... because it's clearly true?"
Wnfzvar npghnyyl jnf n Cbjre. Rirelguvat Fxvc fnvq nobhg ure cyna, naq
Pbeqryvn'f ebyr va vg, ghearq bhg gb or onpxrq hc ol jung npghnyyl
unccrarq va gur fgbel.
Naq creuncf zbfg vzcbegnagyl, ba n aneengvir yriry gur fgbel qbrfa'g
jbex ng nyy vs jung Fxvc gryyf hf nobhg Wnfzvar vfa'g gehr. Gur fgbel
cebprrqf sebz gung cbvag ba nf vs gung vf gur gehgu, naq vg vf arire
pbagenqvpgrq ol nal yngre riragf. Ng ab cbvag vf gurer n arj eriryngvba
bs jung'f npghnyyl tbvat ba, be gung Fxvc'f qrfpevcgvba bs uvf obff jnf
vanpphengr -- ba gur pbagenel, gur Wnfzvar nep gnxrf nyy bs gung nf n
tvira cneg bs vgf cerzvfr.
--Sam
Sam
kenm47 wrote:
>
> V unq sbetbggra ubj onqyl gur Wnfzvar guvat fperjrq guvatf hc. Gunaxf
> sbe gur erzvaqref.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
Lrf, pyrneyl gur vqrn bs gur angher bs serr jvyy va n jbeyq juvpu nyfb
pbagnvaf cebcurpl, qrfgval, naq uvture cbjref jvgu qvivar cynaf vf bar
gung arvgure OgIF abe NgF unq rire nqqerffrq orsber, naq gur vqrn bs
qbvat n fgbel nep rkcyvpvgyl onfrq ba gurz vf furre znqarff.
--Sam
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > > Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
> > > motorcycle-riding demon hunter. The setup is a little long, since we
> > > probably all figured out that it was Wesley long before the episode
> > > told us so (fumbling with the weapons case was pretty much the final
> > > giveaway).
> >
> > Damn. I didn't have a clue until I saw his face.
>
> Not even after Denisof was in the opening titles?
I rarely notice those.
> > I didn't really enjoy Wesley being that pathetic.
>
> You do remember that this is Wesley we're talking about here, right?
> If you have as many problems as it sounds like with the show playing up
> his loser-ish tendencies, what about "Bad Girls," "Graduation Day," and
> so on?
The only time I really liked him was in Bad Girls. Very funny. His
character is most amusing to me when his pompous know it all and macho
posturing side is combined with ridiculous failure or just saying
something dumb. There was a lot of that in Bad Girls and goodly amount
here in Parting Gifts too.
But as that rolls over into acting pathetic the character gets a lot
less appealing to me. This episode hits a couple low points of the
self loathing I'm worthless please give me some of your dog scraps
variety. I don't like that.
He had other decent moments in BtVS, and served a function as Council
representative (though he dragged down their reputation in the
process). Not enough to make him any kind of favorite of mine.
So, I'm genuinely not over thrilled to see him appear now. None the
less, I'm hopeful. I don't see this as likely to be as narrowly
defined a role this go around. We'll see.
OBS
eli...@gmail.com
>visions to Cordelia
speculation. What he says about Cordelia's emotions however, all rings
true.
gree...@gmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> They're demons. They lied.
Someone has to be telling the truth.
> > Anyway, I suppose Barney could be telling the truth in that he does
> > believe Doyle did what he did for the reason Barney said, but it's
> > still bullshit.
>
> I still haven't seen any evidence that Doyle deliberately passed the
> visions to Cordelia.
Actually, all the evidence in this episode and in gur ergpba bs "Lbh'er
Jrypbzr" suggests the visioneer has absolutely no control over what
happens to the visions. But I have no idea whether or not Barney knows
that, or what he believed to be true.
-- Terry
gree...@gmail.com
Sam wrote:
> Wnfzvar qvqa'g gnxr njnl Pbeqryvn'f serr jvyy va gur frafr gung lbh
> zrna vg. Fur neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn jbhyq hfr ure
> serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq
> guvatf bhg.
Npghnyyl, guvf vf whfg rknpgyl gur frafr bs ubj V zrna Wnfzvar gbbx
njnl Pbeqryvn\'f serrqbz bs pubvpr. Vg vfa\'g serr jvyy vs gur
\"qrpvfvba\" vf sbeprq ba gur qrpvqre.
-- Terry
One Bit Shy
That's what it looked like to me at that time. But there's another
context at work here. Cordelia is casting around for something to hang
onto as a remembrance of Doyle - while simultaneously trying to get rid
of the visions. Barney is getting through to Cordy that the visions
were Doyle's most valuable possession. Whether Doyle gave them to
Cordy deliberately or not isn't really the point. The point is that
she had what she was looking for all along. More, really.
OBS
eli...@gmail.com
kenm47
That wasn't my point.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
Fxvc pynvzf gung Wnfzvar unq orra znavchyngvat guvatf sebz gur
ortvaavat, znxvat gurz unccra gurl jnl gurl qvq, ohg jr unir ab rivqrapr
gung guvf vf gehr, bgure guna Fxvc'f jbeqf. Bgure guna gur qverpg
znavchyngvba bs Pbeqryvn, va beqre gb pba ure vagb npprcgvat orpbzvat
cneg qrzba, naq yngre gb nfpraq gb uvture cynar, jr qba'g xabj gung
Wnfzvar neenatrq nalguvat. Fur znl unir fvzcyl gnxra nqinagntr bs
pvephzfgnaprf, naq *pynvzrq* gung fur jnf erfcbafvoyr sbe vg nyy.
Sam
Don Sample wrote:
>
> Fxvc pynvzf gung Wnfzvar unq orra znavchyngvat guvatf sebz gur
> ortvaavat, znxvat gurz unccra gurl jnl gurl qvq, ohg jr unir ab rivqrapr
> gung guvf vf gehr, bgure guna Fxvc'f jbeqf. Bgure guna gur qverpg
> znavchyngvba bs Pbeqryvn, va beqre gb pba ure vagb npprcgvat orpbzvat
> cneg qrzba, naq yngre gb nfpraq gb uvture cynar, jr qba'g xabj gung
> Wnfzvar neenatrq nalguvat. Fur znl unir fvzcyl gnxra nqinagntr bs
> pvephzfgnaprf, naq *pynvzrq* gung fur jnf erfcbafvoyr sbe vg nyy.
>
Fher. Naq znlor Tvyrf jnf frpergyl n frevny xvyyre bssfperra, naq vg
jnf whfg arire erirnyrq ba gur fubj.
Gur Wnfzvar fgbel qbrfa'g znxr nal npghny *frafr* vs rirelguvat jr'er
gbyq nobhg ure vf n yvr. Gurzngvpnyyl, vg'f n fgbel nobhg
cerqrfgvangvba if. serr jvyy, naq znaxvaq'f eryngvbafuvc jvgu Tbq. Vs
Wnfzvar vf whfg fbzr enaqbz ohyyfuvggre jub gbbx nqinagntr bs enaqbz
punapr, gung fgbel vf vapburerag. Naq fvapr gur bayl guvat jr'er rire
gbyq nobhg ure vf gung fur jnf oruvaq rirelguvat, nyy gur punenpgref
npg nf vs gung'f gehr, naq gur fgbel bayl znxrf nal xvaq bs gurzngvp be
aneengvir frafr vs gung'f gehr, vg'f fnsr gb nffhzr vg'f gehr.
--Sam
Don Sample
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vs fur jnf fhpu n terng znavchyngbe bs riragf, ubj qvq gurl rire znantr
gb qrsrng ure? Fheryl fur jbhyq unir nagvpvcngrq gurve rirel zbir, naq
oybpxrq gurz orsber gurl rira tbg fgnegrq.
BTR1701
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> I'm a bit concerned about such a seemingly weak
> character joining Angel's team.
hehe...
BTR1701
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The notion that free will exists even in light of
> the omicience and omnipotence of God -- that's a vital
> aspect of nearly every major religious philosophy.
Which is one of the reasons religions are so full of logical paradoxes.
The idea of an omniscient god isn't a being that knows what you're
likely to do given the circumstances. It's a being that absolutely knows
every single thing you will do, in which case your future is set and
none of choices have anything to do with free will.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1146590816.2...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Wnfzvar qvqa'g gnxr njnl Pbeqryvn'f serr jvyy va gur frafr gung lbh
> > zrna vg. Fur neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn jbhyq hfr ure
> > serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq
> > guvatf bhg. Pbeqryvn jnf fgvyy znxvat ubarfg qrpvfvbaf. Wnfzvar jnfa'g
> > zvaq pbagebyyvat ure (lrg).
>
> Bapr ntnva, jr xabj gung 90% bs jung Fxvc fnvq jnf yvrf, be ohyyfuvg.
> Fb jul oryvrir gur bgure 10%?
Well, because you've just defined him as being 90% full of lies and
bullshit. The only logical conclusion from that premise is that the
other 10% must be truth otherwise he wouldn't be 90% full of lies and
bullshit. He'd be 100% full of lies and bullshit.
The problem comes in sorting out which parts are true and which aren't.
The most believable lies are the ones dressed up in snippets of truth.
One Bit Shy
news:1146582957.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> I'd rate it a little better than that. I'd call it Good, even though it
>> is
>> certainly closer to Decent than to Excellent. To me, its the 19th best
>> AtS
>> episode, and sadly, the best in Season 1. Sadly because I agree with you
>> that it is really not all that good, and a Season ought to have a better
>> episode than this. All of the other 11 Buffyverse seasons have at least
>> one
>> episode better than this. Even the horrible one.
>
> That'd be really depressing if this were the best of the year. Granted
> I'm not too worried given that I've liked five of the other nine so far
> better than PG - we have slightly different tastes, huh? Just a
> little.
>
> -AOQ
It would be 8th out of 10 so far for me. Maybe it'll play better in
retrospect with more info.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
so youre claiming quantum mechanics is false if theres a god?
youre referencing a so-called proof that god doesnt exist
that doesnt meet the minimum levels of logic
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-774A5...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-43854F...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <Xns97B76B9617F...@216.40.28.70>,
> > Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The notion that free will exists even in light of
> > > the omicience and omnipotence of God -- that's a vital
> > > aspect of nearly every major religious philosophy.
> >
> > Which is one of the reasons religions are so full of logical paradoxes.
> >
> > The idea of an omniscient god isn't a being that knows what you're
> > likely to do given the circumstances. It's a being that absolutely knows
> > every single thing you will do, in which case your future is set and
> > none of choices have anything to do with free will.
>
> so youre claiming quantum mechanics is false if theres a god?
I'm claiming that free will and knowledge of the future are mutually
exclusive concepts.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article
> <mair_fheal-774A5...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <btr1702-43854F...@news.giganews.com>,
> > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Xns97B76B9617F...@216.40.28.70>,
> > > Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The notion that free will exists even in light of
> > > > the omicience and omnipotence of God -- that's a vital
> > > > aspect of nearly every major religious philosophy.
> > >
> > > Which is one of the reasons religions are so full of logical paradoxes.
> > >
> > > The idea of an omniscient god isn't a being that knows what you're
> > > likely to do given the circumstances. It's a being that absolutely knows
> > > every single thing you will do, in which case your future is set and
> > > none of choices have anything to do with free will.
> >
> > so youre claiming quantum mechanics is false if theres a god?
>
> I'm claiming that free will and knowledge of the future are mutually
> exclusive concepts.
like i said youre using an extremely poor proof
and youre propagating its mistakes flawlessly
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-A445C...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Says the person who doesn't even how to use the apostrophe.
Mel
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Lord Usher wrote:
>
>>Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in
>>news:dsample-CBB9B7...@news.giganews.com:
>
>
>
>>>Or another in a long line of evil demons that's good at flinging the
>>>bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie. Why not
>>>this too?
>>
>>Erm... because it's clearly true?
>
>
> Vg jnf pyrneyl gehr hagvy Jurqba erjebgr _Natry_'f cerzvfr gb vapyhqr
> Wnfzvar'f pbageby bire nyy guvatf eryngvat gb Pbeqryvn naq gur ivfvbaf.
> Fb lbh xabj, vg ernyyl jnfa'g rira yvxr Qblyr unq n pubvpr; vg jnf nyy
> Wnfzvar.
>
> Trr, jnfa'g frnfba sbhe terng?
>
> -- Terry
>
Jul qb lbh oryvrir Wnfzvar ohg abg Onearl? Vg'f abg n ergpba....vg'f
Wnfzvar cbfghevat gb znxr urefrys frrz zber cbjreshy guna fur ernyyl vf.
Wnfzvar unq ab pbageby bire nalguvat hagvy Pbeql orpnzr "cneg qrzba."
Mel
Mel
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> eli...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>Gur cbvag bs Wnfzvar vf gung fur gnxrf njnl serr jvyy, fbzrguvat gurl
>>svtug jvgu nyy gurl\'ir tbg.
>
>
> Jryy, lrnu, gung'f zl cbvag nf jryy: Wnfzvar gbbx njnl gurve serr jvyy,
> be ng yrnfg Pbeql'f. Nsgre nyy, rira vs Qblyr unq n pubvpr jurgure be
> abg gb cnff ba gur ivfvbaf, ab bar nfxrq Pbeql vs fur jnagrq gurz hagvy
> sne yngre, jura fur jnf tbvat gb tvir gurz gur nafjre gurl jnagrq
> naljnl. Fb, lbh xabj, jurer'f gur serr jvyy?
>
> Naq gung'f jul _Natry_ jrag sebz bar bs gur orfg guvatf ba GI gb whfg
> nabgure fbnc bcren.
>
> -- Terry
>
Ab bar nfxrq Qblyr vs ur jnagrq gur ivfvbaf. Ur whfg tbg gurz bar qnl.
Jurer jnf uvf pubvpr? Univat serr jvyy qbrfa'g zrna lbh trg gb qrpvqr
rirelguvat gung unccraf gb lbh orpnhfr, boivbhfyl, ab zbegny vf
bzavcbgrag. Vg zrnaf univat gur cbjre gb qrpvqr _ubj lbh erfcbaq_ gb
jung unccraf gb lbh. Gung'f nyy nal bs hf pna qb, naq gung vf gur znwbe
zrffntr bs NgF, evtug hc guebhtu gur irel ynfg fprar.
Mel
Mel
Sam wrote:
Wnfzvar vf erirnyrq nf n senhq. Rirelguvat jr jrer bevtvanyyl gbyq nobhg
ure jnf, vaqrrq, n yvr. Gung'f gur jubyr cbvag.
Mel
Lord Usher
> In article <Xns97B75DBF9B6...@216.40.28.74>,
> Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in
>> news:dsample-CBB9B7...@news.giganews.com:
>>
>> >> Cordy: I'm never going to forgive him for doing this to me.
>> >> Barney: What? Choosing you? Trusting you with an enormous
>> >> responsibility? Believing that you where the only one worthy of
>> >> such a rare and important gift?
>> >> Cordy: Did I mention the drooling?
>> >> Barney: I get the impression that Doyle didn't have much by way
>> >> of possessions?
>> >> Cordy: No. No he didn't.
>> >> Barney: Seems like he gave you the most valuable thing he had.
>> >>
>> >> Those pesky evil demons with all their insight.
>> >
>> > Or another in a long line of evil demons that's good at flinging
>> > the bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie.
>> > Why not this too?
>>
>> Erm... because it's clearly true?
>
> How clear was it? I think that Doyle just wanted to kiss Cordy. He
> had no thought about passing on the visions. They just got passed
> along with it, like herpes.
But "Doyle meant to pass the visions on to Cordy" wasn't Barney's lie.
That's what *Cordy* assumed, as soon as she realized she'd inherited
them: "I thought our kiss meant something, and instead he... he used
that moment to pass it on to me!"
Barney's comments are based upon Cordy's assumption -- "*If* he did
choose to give you the visions like you say, he gave you the most
valuable thing he had." And that does indeed ring true.
If, OTOH, Cordy's initial assumption is false, you can hardly blame
Barney for that!
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Lord Usher
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Heh. I was just gonna quote the same thing. :)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > But then: What the hell is the deal with the episode painting Wes as
> > some sort of badass in the early going, and then having that unfunny
> > display of ineptitude during the last fight? You can't have it both
> > ways, show. One Xander is plenty.
>
> Where in the early going did you ever get the impression anyone but
> Wesley thought Wesley was a bad-ass?
Barney: "But whoever he is, he's unstoppable. Like a machine. Been on
my tail since Phoenix. Pull out all the stops to shake him, but he
keeps on coming."
-AOQ
jil...@hotmail.com
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Lord Usher wrote:
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in
> > news:dsample-CBB9B7...@news.giganews.com:
>
>
> > > bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie. Why not
> > > this too?
> >
> > Erm... because it's clearly true?
>
> Wnfzvar'f pbageby bire nyy guvatf eryngvat gb Pbeqryvn naq gur ivfvbaf.
> Fb lbh xabj, vg ernyyl jnfa'g rira yvxr Qblyr unq n pubvpr; vg jnf nyy
> Wnfzvar.
>
> Trr, jnfa'g frnfba sbhe terng?
Nu-nu! Gung jnf ab ergpba. Erzrzore jura Jbysenz & Uneg uvwnpxrq
Pbeql'f ivfvbaf? V qba'g guvax Wnfzvar jnf va pbageby ng nyy hagvy
Fxvc pbaivaprq Pbeql gb yrg urefrys or fubjrerq jvgu "qrzba QAN", juvpu
zl oryvrs vf jnf rffrapr-bs-Wnfzvar.
Lord Usher
>> Gur Wnfzvar fgbel qbrfa'g znxr nal npghny *frafr* vs rirelguvat jr'er
>> gbyq nobhg ure vf n yvr. Gurzngvpnyyl, vg'f n fgbel nobhg
>> cerqrfgvangvba if. serr jvyy, naq znaxvaq'f eryngvbafuvc jvgu Tbq. Vs
>> Wnfzvar vf whfg fbzr enaqbz ohyyfuvggre jub gbbx nqinagntr bs enaqbz
>> punapr, gung fgbel vf vapburerag. Naq fvapr gur bayl guvat jr'er rire
>> gbyq nobhg ure vf gung fur jnf oruvaq rirelguvat, nyy gur punenpgref
>> npg nf vs gung'f gehr, naq gur fgbel bayl znxrf nal xvaq bs gurzngvp
>> be aneengvir frafr vs gung'f gehr, vg'f fnsr gb nffhzr vg'f gehr.
>
> Vs fur jnf fhpu n terng znavchyngbe bs riragf, ubj qvq gurl rire
> znantr gb qrsrng ure? Fheryl fur jbhyq unir nagvpvcngrq gurve rirel
> zbir, naq oybpxrq gurz orsber gurl rira tbg fgnegrq.
Gur jubyr cbvag bs Wnfzvar'f cyna, gubhtu, vf gung fur erzbirq urefrys sebz
gur pryrfgvny cynar naq orpnzr na ntrag va gur nssnvef bs zbegnyf. Qbrfa'g
vg znxr frafr gung vs lbh orpbzr na ryrzrag jvguva n flfgrz, lbh ybfr gur
novyvgl gb frr vg jubyr?
VBJ, gur tbq-ba-uvtu Wnfzvar pregnvayl pbhyq'ir nagvpvcngrq gurve rirel
zbir. Gur vapneangr Wnfzvar... abg fb zhpu.
Vaqrrq, ure irffry gur Pbeqrzba cerggl zhpu pbasvezrq guvf: "Lbh xabj,
gurer jnf n gvzr V jbhyq'ir frra gung bar pbzvat rbaf orsber vg rire
pebffrq lbhe gval yvggyr zvaq."
jil...@hotmail.com
> Fher. Naq znlor Tvyrf jnf frpergyl n frevny xvyyre bssfperra, naq vg
> jnf whfg arire erirnyrq ba gur fubj.
>
> Gur Wnfzvar fgbel qbrfa'g znxr nal npghny *frafr* vs rirelguvat jr'er
> gbyq nobhg ure vf n yvr. Gurzngvpnyyl, vg'f n fgbel nobhg
> cerqrfgvangvba if. serr jvyy, naq znaxvaq'f eryngvbafuvc jvgu Tbq. Vs
> Wnfzvar vf whfg fbzr enaqbz ohyyfuvggre jub gbbx nqinagntr bs enaqbz
> punapr, gung fgbel vf vapburerag. Naq fvapr gur bayl guvat jr'er rire
> gbyq nobhg ure vf gung fur jnf oruvaq rirelguvat, nyy gur punenpgref
> npg nf vs gung'f gehr, naq gur fgbel bayl znxrf nal xvaq bs gurzngvp be
> aneengvir frafr vs gung'f gehr, vg'f fnsr gb nffhzr vg'f gehr.
>
> --Sam
Gung'f jung V guvax. Naq rira fb, Pbeqryvn jnf tvira na bccbeghavgl gb
cnff gur ivfvbaf ba gb Teh. Ng yrnfg, vg jnf vzcyvrq nf orvat gur
ernfba, ohg gurer'f nabgure cbvag V cvpxrq hc yngre. Pbaare jnf gur
uhzna puvyq bs gjb fhcreangheny orvatf. Fb jnf Teh. Fubivat Pbeql
vagb Teh'f jbeyq znl unir orra n svefg nggrzcg gb trg Wnfzvar obea.
Fuvsgvat gb n ybjre ernyz vf n greevoyr fubpx. Gurl fnvq fb. Zbir gb
n fyvtugyl uvture ernyz naq creuncf vg pna or nppbzcyvfurq zber rnfvyl.
Wnfzvar znqr gur nggrzcg, jr pna thrff, jvgu gur jbzna orsber jub tbg
ure urnq oybja bhg. Yrneavat sebz rkcrevrapr.
Lord Usher
>> Gur Wnfzvar fgbel qbrfa'g znxr nal npghny *frafr* vs rirelguvat jr'er
>> gbyq nobhg ure vf n yvr. Gurzngvpnyyl, vg'f n fgbel nobhg
>> cerqrfgvangvba if. serr jvyy, naq znaxvaq'f eryngvbafuvc jvgu Tbq. Vs
>> Wnfzvar vf whfg fbzr enaqbz ohyyfuvggre jub gbbx nqinagntr bs enaqbz
>> punapr, gung fgbel vf vapburerag. Naq fvapr gur bayl guvat jr'er rire
>> gbyq nobhg ure vf gung fur jnf oruvaq rirelguvat, nyy gur punenpgref
>> npg nf vs gung'f gehr, naq gur fgbel bayl znxrf nal xvaq bs gurzngvp
>> be aneengvir frafr vs gung'f gehr, vg'f fnsr gb nffhzr vg'f gehr.
>>
>> --Sam
>>
>
> Wnfzvar vf erirnyrq nf n senhq. Rirelguvat jr jrer bevtvanyyl gbyq
> nobhg ure jnf, vaqrrq, n yvr. Gung'f gur jubyr cbvag.
Ab, Fnz'f evtug. Gur irel rffrapr bs gur fgbel vf gung Wnfzvar jnf gryyvat
gur gehgu, naq gur crnpr fur bssrerq jnf trahvar -- nyorvg fbyq ng na
hanpprcgnoyr cevpr. Nsgre nyy, Wnf n) unq ab ernfba gb yvr gb crbcyr jub
jrer zlfgvpnyyl pbzcryyrq gb npprcg nalguvat fur fnvq jvgubhg dhrfgvba, naq
o) pbagvahrq gb znvagnva ure fvaprevgl rira nsgre gur wvt jnf hc.
Nsgre nyy gurfr lrnef, V'z fgvyy jnvgvat sbe fbzrbar gb bssre n "Wnfzvar
jnf ylvat nyy nybat" ernqvat gung nppbhagf sbe gurfr gjb snpgf. V'z nyfb
jnvgvat sbe fbzrbar gb rkcynva ubj fhpu n ernqvat raunaprf gur fgbel va nal
jnl.
Mel
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
Ubj qb lbh znxr gung pbaarpgvba? Fb rirelbar jub'f rire unq ivfvbaf
(vapyhqvat Qehfvyyn) jnf whfg n Wnfzvar chccrg va gur znxvat? V qba'g
frr gung ng nyy.
Sebz qnl bar jr xabj gur ivfvbaf ner culfvpnyyl cnvashy. Gurl jrer sbe
Qblyr, jub jnf ovbybtvpnyyl unys qrzba. Jura ur tbg uvf svefg bar, ur
fnvq ur "gubhtug [ur] jnf univat n fgebxr." Jul jbhyqa'g gurl or
cnvashy, rira qrnqyl, sbe zrer uhznaf rira jvgubhg nal shaal ohfvarff
sebz ebthr CGOf?
Mel
>
Mel
Lord Usher wrote:
"Zlfgvpnyyl pbzcryyrq"?? Gung VF gur yvr! Fur yvrq nobhg jung fur jnf,
jul fur jnf gurer, naq jung fur ybbxrq yvxr. Vs fur unq pbzr qbja sebz
ba uvtu naq erirnyrq urefrys sbe jung fur _ernyyl_ jnf (V'z gnxvat njnl
lbhe serr jvyy fb lbh nyy jvyy qb nf V jnag, ab dhrfgvbaf nfxrq. Bu,
ogj, V rng crbcyr.") ab bar jbhyq unir obhtug vg sbe n frpbaq. Fur yvrq
gb rirelbar hagvy Serq fnj guebhtu gur vyyhfvba.
Gur bayl guvat Wnfzvar jnf fvaprer nobhg jnf jnagvat gb ehyr gur jbeyq.
Fur qvqa'g guvax crbcyr fubhyq znxr gurve bja pubvprf orpnhfr gurl
pubbfr gb svtug naq jne naq uheg rnpu bgure. Fur qvqa'g jnag crnpr. Fur
jnagrq pbageby, uref naq uref nybar.
Mel
Lord Usher
@h72t2000pjh.tbbtyrtebhcf.pbz:
> Fnz jebgr:
>
>> Jasmine didn't take away Cordelia's free will in the sense that you
>> mean it. She arranged events in such a way that Cordelia would use her
>> free will in such a way as she had, in her divine wisdom, planned
>> things out.
>
> Actually, this is just exactly the sense of how I mean Jasmine took
> away Cordelia\'s freedom of choice. It isn\'t free will if the
> \"decision\" is forced on the decider.
Yeah, but Sam's point is that Cordelia *wasn't* "forced." Knowing what
someone is going to do is not the same thing as making them do it.
--
Ybeq Hfure
"V'z urer gb xvyy lbh, abg gb whqtr lbh."
Mel
Lord Usher wrote:
> terr...@tznvy.pbz jebgr va arjf:1146594702.694807.232440
> @h72t2000pjh.tbbtyrtebhcf.pbz:
>
>
>>Fnz jebgr:
>>
>>
>>Wnfzvar qvqa'g gnxr njnl Pbeqryvn'f serr jvyy va gur frafr gung lbh
>>>> zrna vg. Fur neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn jbhyq hfr ure
>>>> serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq
>>>> guvatf bhg.
>
>>
>> Npghnyyl, guvf vf whfg rknpgyl gur frafr bs ubj V zrna Wnfzvar gbbx
>> njnl Pbeqryvn\'f serrqbz bs pubvpr. Vg vfa\'g serr jvyy vs gur
>> \"qrpvfvba\" vf sbeprq ba gur qrpvqre.
Lrnu, ohg Fnz'f cbvag vf gung Pbeqryvn *jnfa'g* "sbeprq." Xabjvat jung
fbzrbar vf tbvat gb qb vf abg gur fnzr guvat nf znxvat gurz qb vg.
>
I changed it back to ROT-13.
Lord Usher
> Lrnu, ohg Fnz'f cbvag vf gung Pbeqryvn *jnfa'g* "sbeprq." Xabjvat jung
> fbzrbar vf tbvat gb qb vf abg gur fnzr guvat nf znxvat gurz qb vg.
>>
>
> I changed it back to ROT-13.
Heh, thanks. I was waiting for it to propagate so I could cancel it. Like
an idiot, I let the ROT-13 go out backwards.
Fortunately the comments are vague enough that no one will know what the
hell they're about unless they've already seen the episode in question.
Sorry, nevertheless, to all you unspoiled folks out there.
jil...@hotmail.com
> Wnfzvar znqr gur nggrzcg, jr pna thrff, jvgu gur jbzna orsber jub tbg
> ure urnq oybja bhg. Yrneavat sebz rkcrevrapr.
Mel said:
>Ubj qb lbh znxr gung pbaarpgvba? Fb rirelbar jub'f rire unq ivfvbaf
>(vapyhqvat Qehfvyyn) jnf whfg n Wnfzvar chccrg va gur znxvat? V qba'g
>frr gung ng nyy.
Ab, ab ab. Whfg pbzcyrgr naq gbgny thrffjbex. Jung vs Wnfzvar'f
zbgure unq gb or n uhzna gb trg ure gb guvf jbeyq? V'z thrffvat,
orpnhfr gur tubfg bs gur bgure tvey (be whfg vyyhfvba) frrzrq yvxr fur
jnf vzcylvat fur qvqa'g gnxr Fxvc'f nqivpr naq qvrq sebz gur ivfvbaf.
Vs zngvat gung uhzna jvgu n "uhzna obea bs qrzbaf" jnf xrl, naq uhznaf
unir orra obea bs qrzbaf (va snpg znl or gur jnl uhznaf pnzr gb rkvfg
va gur svefg cynpr) rirel fb bsgra, gura Teh znl unir orra Wnfzvar'f
svefg pubvpr bs snguref.
gree...@gmail.com
> gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Where in the early going did you ever get the impression anyone but
> > Wesley thought Wesley was a bad-ass?
>
> Barney: "But whoever he is, he's unstoppable. Like a machine. Been on
> my tail since Phoenix. Pull out all the stops to shake him, but he
> keeps on coming."
Ah. So Wesley's a good follower, but that doesn't say a lot about being
a bad-ass. I mean, he could have lost an arm fighting that demon in the
hotel.
--- Terry
gree...@gmail.com
Lord Usher wrote:
> Yeah, but Sam's point is that Cordelia *wasn't* "forced." Knowing what
> someone is going to do is not the same thing as making them do it.
Huh? Fnz pbzrf evtug bhg naq nterrf jvgu zr gung Pbeqryvn jnf
znavchyngrq:
"[Wnfzvar] neenatrq riragf va fhpu n jnl gung Pbeqryvn
jbhyq hfr ure serr jvyy va fhpu n jnl nf fur unq, va
ure qvivar jvfqbz, cynaarq guvatf bhg."
> Xabjvat jung
> fbzrbar vf tbvat gb qb vf abg gur fnzr guvat nf znxvat gurz qb vg.
::fueht:: Frggvat hc pbaqvgvbaf gb znxr fbzrbar "qrpvqr" gb qb jung lbh
jnag gurz gb qb vf nyfb abg gur fnzr guvat nf serr jvyy.
-- Terry
Sam
Mel wrote:
> "Zlfgvpnyyl pbzcryyrq"?? Gung VF gur yvr!
Ab, gung jnf fbzrguvat fur qvq. Naq vg'f abg yvxr fur qravrq vg.
V'z nyfb abg pbaivaprq vg jnf fbzrguvat nf fvzcyr nf whfg n fcryy be
jungrire. Tvira gur nanybtl gur jevgref jrer boivbhfyl tbvat sbe --
Frnfba 4 vf gur obbx bs Eriryngvbaf naq Wnfzvar vf Tbq erghearq gb
Rnegu nsgre gur gevohyngvba -- V guvax jung jr jrer trggvat gurer vf
fbzrguvat zber va yvar jvgu Pngubyvp gurbybtl, juvpu unf genqvgvbanyyl
fgngrq gung hcba rapbhagrevat Tbq va Urnira bhe bja vqragvgvrf ner
fhofhzrq naq jr orpbzr bar jvgu Tbq'f qvivar cresrpgvba naq ybir.
Fbhaq snzvyvne?
Wnfzvar jnf gur Jurqbairefr irefvba bs gur Whqrb-Puevfgvna Tbq, Lnujru
jvgu gur frevny ahzoref svyrq bss. Jura n zbegny frrf ure, gung zbegny
vafgnagyl orpbzrf bar jvgu ure. Vg'f abg yvxr Wnfzvar jnf farnxvat
nebhaq cresbezvat n zvaq pbageby fcryy.
> Fur yvrq nobhg jung fur jnf,
> jul fur jnf gurer, naq jung fur ybbxrq yvxr.
Jung fur ybbxrq yvxr, lrf. Ubjrire, gurer vf ab ernfba gb fhfcrpg gung
fur jnf nalguvat bgure guna jung fur fnvq fur jnf -- n Cbjre Gung Jnf,
nyorvg n snyyra bar.
Vs fur unq pbzr qbja sebz
> ba uvtu naq erirnyrq urefrys sbe jung fur _ernyyl_ jnf (V'z gnxvat njnl
> lbhe serr jvyy fb lbh nyy jvyy qb nf V jnag, ab dhrfgvbaf nfxrq. Bu,
> ogj, V rng crbcyr.") ab bar jbhyq unir obhtug vg sbe n frpbaq. Fur yvrq
> gb rirelbar hagvy Serq fnj guebhtu gur vyyhfvba.
>
Re, ab, fur qvqa'g. Gurer'f npghnyyl n ovg jurer Wnfzvar pbzrf evtug
bhg naq gryyf ure sbyybjref gung fur rngf crbcyr gb xrrc ure fgeratgu
hc. Gur rknpg erfcbafr vf, "Bu. Pbby."
Gung'f jul vg'f fb uneq gb oryvrir fur jnf ylvat nobhg ure zbgvirf --
jul obgure? Wnfzvar pbhyq unir fnvq, "V'z whfg urer gb pbadhre lbh
yvggyr cevzngrf," naq rirelbar jbhyq unir ercyvrq, "Gung'f jbaqreshy!
Jurer fubhyq jr ohvyq lbhe cnynpr?"
Gur fvzcyr snpg vf gung fur unq ab *ernfba* gb yvr. Naq fvapr fur jnf
dhvgr hc sebag nobhg gur snpg gung fur jnf rngvat crbcyr, V qba'g frr
jul jr fubhyqa'g oryvrir ure gung fur trahvaryl jnagrq gb perngr jbeyq
crnpr.
> Gur bayl guvat Wnfzvar jnf fvaprer nobhg jnf jnagvat gb ehyr gur jbeyq.
> Fur qvqa'g guvax crbcyr fubhyq znxr gurve bja pubvprf orpnhfr gurl
> pubbfr gb svtug naq jne naq uheg rnpu bgure.
Gubfr gjb fragnaprf frrz pbagenqvpgbel. Fur jnagrq gb ehyr gur jbeyq,
lrf, nofbyhgryl. Ohg fur jnagrq gb ehyr gur jbeyq cerpvfryl orpnhfr
crbcyr, yrsg gb gurve bja qrivprf, pubbfr gb svtug naq jne naq uheg
rnpu bgure. Fur trahvaryl jnagrq gb fgbc gung. Fur fnj rirel uhzna yvsr
nf cerpvbhf naq jbaqreshy naq fur jnagrq gb fnir nf znal crbcyr nf fur
pbhyq naq xrrc gurz va n pbafgnag fgngr bs unccl, oyvffshy ybir naq
fnsrgl naq hgbcvn. Fher, fur unq gb rng n srj qbmra crbcyr n qnl gb
znxr gung unccra, ohg n srj qbmra crbcyr n qnl va rkpunatr sbe fvk
ovyyvba crbcyr va cnenqvfr vf n snve genqr, evtug? Naq serr jvyy vf
pyrneyl zber gebhoyr guna vg'f jbegu...
Boivbhfyl, gur urebrf qvfnterrq. Ohg V qba'g frr nal ernfba va gur
fgbel gb guvax gung jnfa'g rknpgyl jung Wnfzvar jnf ernyyl guvaxvat.
Nf Ybeq Hfure abgrq, rira nsgre ure gehr anzr naq snpr jrer erirnyrq
naq gur jbeyq ghearq ba ure, fur fgvyy fnvq nf zhpu.
"V pbhyq'ir fgbccrq vg, Natry. Nyy bs vg. Jne, qvfrnfr, cbiregl. Ubj
znal cerpvbhf, ornhgvshy yvirf jbhyq'ir orra fnirq va n unaqshy bs
lrnef? Lrf, V zheqrerq gubhfnaqf gb fnir ovyyvbaf."
Gung jnf nsgre ure cbjre jnf oebxra nyernql. Fur unq ab ernfba gb yvr
nobhg ure zbgvirf (abg gung fur unq nal ernfba gb yvr orsber, rvgure).
V'z abg fnlvat fur jnf *evtug* -- ohg fur jnf n qvssrerag fbeg bs
ivyynva guna jr hfhnyyl trg ba gurfr fubjf. Fur jnf gur glcr jub ernyyl
qvq jnag gb qb tbbq naq uryc crbcyr. Fur whfg unq n engure sevtugravat
ivrj bs 'tbbq.'
(Vg znl nyfb or jbegu abgvat gung V unir ng yrnfg bar sevraq jub, hcba
jngpuvat gur frevrf, jnf pbaivaprq gung Wnfzvar jnf evtug naq Natry jnf
jebat gb fgbc ure.)
Fur qvqa'g jnag crnpr. Fur
> jnagrq pbageby, uref naq uref nybar.
Fur jnagrq obgu. Gur ynggre jnf gur zrnaf gb gur sbezre.
--Sam
Stephen Tempest
>Naq creuncf zbfg vzcbegnagyl, ba n aneengvir yriry gur fgbel qbrfa'g
>jbex ng nyy vs jung Fxvc gryyf hf nobhg Wnfzvar vfa'g gehr. Gur fgbel
>cebprrqf sebz gung cbvag ba nf vs gung vf gur gehgu, naq vg vf arire
>pbagenqvpgrq ol nal yngre riragf. Ng ab cbvag vf gurer n arj eriryngvba
>bs jung'f npghnyyl tbvat ba, be gung Fxvc'f qrfpevcgvba bs uvf obff jnf
>vanpphengr -- ba gur pbagenel, gur Wnfzvar nep gnxrf nyy bs gung nf n
>tvira cneg bs vgf cerzvfr.
Hz. Vs gung'f gehr, gura va frnfba 5, nsgre Wnfzvar vf qrnq, jub
fraqf Pbeqryvn gb Natry gb tvir uvz onpx uvf zvffvba? Ubj qbrf
Pbeqryvn genafzvg ure ivfvbaf gb Natry, tvivat uvz gur ivfvba nobhg
ubj gb qrsrng gur Oynpx Gubea, vs gur ivfvbaf jrer nyy znqr hc ol
Wnfzvar?
Fur znl unir orra oruvaq fbzr bs gur ivfvbaf... fur znl unir gnxra
perqvg sbe bguref... ohg pyrneyl ng yrnfg fbzr bs gur ivfvbaf (naq
bgure vagreiragvbaf bs gur CgO) ner jubyyl vaqrcraqrag bs Wnfzvar.
Stephen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Lord Usher wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but Sam's point is that Cordelia *wasn't* "forced." Knowing what
> > someone is going to do is not the same thing as making them do it.
>
> Uhu? Sam comes right out and agrees with me that Cordelia was
> manipulated:
>
> "[Jasmine] arranged events in such a way that Cordelia
> would use her free will in such a way as she had, in
> her divine wisdom, planned things out."
>
> > Knowing what
> > someone is going to do is not the same thing as making them do it.
>
> ::shrug:: Setting up conditions to make someone "decide" to do what you
> want them to do is also not the same thing as free will.
people are using words like omniscience and free will
without really clear unambiguous objective definitions
and applying them to posited intelligent agencies
to which they might not be applicable
a properly trained dog will heel whether it is on a leash or not
to a properly trained dog the question of a leash is irrelevant
since -all- dogs are conditioned by their history
does a properly trained dog have freewill?
is the question even meaningful?
here and now most christian sects say that humans have some degree of free will
so that unless jasmine truly is god come to earth
fundamentally altering her own created humanity
she is violating the morality agreed by most christian sects
and many other belief systems as well
by usurping human free will and individual conscience
this is the view angel takes
and uses to justify his rebellion against her dominion
saying whether angel is right or wrong depends on a lot assumptions
about the nature of humanity and the nature of jasmine
Sam
Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>
> Fur znl unir orra oruvaq fbzr bs gur ivfvbaf... fur znl unir gnxra
> perqvg sbe bguref... ohg pyrneyl ng yrnfg fbzr bs gur ivfvbaf (naq
> bgure vagreiragvbaf bs gur CgO) ner jubyyl vaqrcraqrag bs Wnfzvar.
>
> Stephen
Oh, absolutely.
Gur orfg rknzcyr orvat, bs pbhefr, gur nccnevgvba bs Qneyn juvpu
nccrnerq gb Pbaabe whfg orsber ur fnpevsvprq gung tvey gb oevat Wnfzvar
vagb gur jbeyq.
Naq vs lbh ybbx pybfryl ng Qneyn'f qvnybthr va gung fprar, lbh frr gur
ovt qvssrerapr bs bcvavba orgjrra Wnfzvar naq gur erfg bs gur Cbjref --
gurl oryvrir va serr jvyy, naq xabj gung nal erny vagreiragvba ol gurz
jvyy qrfgebl vg.
Wnfzvar, ol pbagenfg, frrf guvf abavagresrerapr nf ncngul ba gur cneg
bs ure sryybj Cbjref, naq unf n srj yvarf gb gur rssrpg gung gurl whfg
jngpu zbegny riragf, naq zhfg abg ernyyl pner nobhg znaxvaq irel zhpu
be jnag gb uryc gurz.
Gung fnvq, gur rzcunfvf ba abavagresrerapr ba gur cneg bs gur bgure
cbjref qbrf frrz gb vaqvpngr gung ng yrnfg gur znwbevgl bs gur znwbe
qvivar vagreiragvbaf guebhtubhg gur frevrf -- Pbaabe'f ovegu, gur
fabjsnyy, rgp. -- cebonoyl jrer vaqrrq qbar ol Wnfzvar.
--Sam
Mel
Ohg gung vzcyvrf Wnfzvar unq n unaq va fraqvat Pbeql gb Clyrn va gur
svefg cynpr naq V whfg qba'g ohl gung. Uryy, vg vzcyvrf fur neenatrq gb
unir Serq frag gurer fb Pbeql jbhyq unir n ivfvba bs ure naq jbhyq or
yrq gb bcra n cbegny gb Clyrn.
V'yy fgvpx jvgu zl bevtvany fgngrzrag: Wnfzvar pbagebyyrq abguvat hagvy
Pbeql nterrq gb orpbzr cneg qrzba. Gung'f jura fur jnf svanyyl noyr gb
trg n gbr ubyq naq (znlor) uvwnpx gur ivfvbaf. Nalguvat zber guna gung
naq gur jubyr frevrf orpbzrf zrnavatyrff. V'z abg jvyyvat gb sbyybj gung
cngu.
Mel
Mel
Sam wrote:
> Mel wrote:
>
>
>>"Zlfgvpnyyl pbzcryyrq"?? Gung VF gur yvr!
>
>
> Ab, gung jnf fbzrguvat fur qvq. Naq vg'f abg yvxr fur qravrq vg.
>
> V'z nyfb abg pbaivaprq vg jnf fbzrguvat nf fvzcyr nf whfg n fcryy be
> jungrire. Tvira gur nanybtl gur jevgref jrer boivbhfyl tbvat sbe --
> Frnfba 4 vf gur obbx bs Eriryngvbaf naq Wnfzvar vf Tbq erghearq gb
> Rnegu nsgre gur gevohyngvba -- V guvax jung jr jrer trggvat gurer vf
> fbzrguvat zber va yvar jvgu Pngubyvp gurbybtl, juvpu unf genqvgvbanyyl
> fgngrq gung hcba rapbhagrevat Tbq va Urnira bhe bja vqragvgvrf ner
> fhofhzrq naq jr orpbzr bar jvgu Tbq'f qvivar cresrpgvba naq ybir.
>
> Fbhaq snzvyvne?
Npghnyyl, ab. Abg n ovt sna bs gur Ovoyr.
>
> Wnfzvar jnf gur Jurqbairefr irefvba bs gur Whqrb-Puevfgvna Tbq, Lnujru
> jvgu gur frevny ahzoref svyrq bss. Jura n zbegny frrf ure, gung zbegny
> vafgnagyl orpbzrf bar jvgu ure. Vg'f abg yvxr Wnfzvar jnf farnxvat
> nebhaq cresbezvat n zvaq pbageby fcryy.
>
>
>>Fur yvrq nobhg jung fur jnf,
>>jul fur jnf gurer, naq jung fur ybbxrq yvxr.
>
>
> Jung fur ybbxrq yvxr, lrf. Ubjrire, gurer vf ab ernfba gb fhfcrpg gung
> fur jnf nalguvat bgure guna jung fur fnvq fur jnf -- n Cbjre Gung Jnf,
> nyorvg n snyyra bar.
>
> Vs fur unq pbzr qbja sebz
>
>>ba uvtu naq erirnyrq urefrys sbe jung fur _ernyyl_ jnf (V'z gnxvat njnl
>>lbhe serr jvyy fb lbh nyy jvyy qb nf V jnag, ab dhrfgvbaf nfxrq. Bu,
>>ogj, V rng crbcyr.") ab bar jbhyq unir obhtug vg sbe n frpbaq. Fur yvrq
>>gb rirelbar hagvy Serq fnj guebhtu gur vyyhfvba.
>>
>
>
> Re, ab, fur qvqa'g. Gurer'f npghnyyl n ovg jurer Wnfzvar pbzrf evtug
> bhg naq gryyf ure sbyybjref gung fur rngf crbcyr gb xrrc ure fgeratgu
> hc. Gur rknpg erfcbafr vf, "Bu. Pbby."
Fur gbyq Pbaabe, jub nyernql fnj guebhtu gur vyyhfvba naq pubfr gb
sbyybj ure naljnl orpnhfr ure yvr jnf orggre guna gur erfg ur'q orra
gbyq. Fur qvqa'g gryy nalbar ryfr.
Mel
jil...@hotmail.com
>Ohg gung vzcyvrf Wnfzvar unq n unaq va fraqvat Pbeql gb Clyrn va gur
>svefg cynpr naq V whfg qba'g ohl gung. Uryy, vg vzcyvrf fur neenatrq gb
>unir Serq frag gurer fb Pbeql jbhyq unir n ivfvba bs ure naq jbhyq or
>yrq gb bcra n cbegny gb Clyrn.
>V'yy fgvpx jvgu zl bevtvany fgngrzrag: Wnfzvar pbagebyyrq abguvat hagvy
>Pbeql nterrq gb orpbzr cneg qrzba. Gung'f jura fur jnf svanyyl noyr gb
>trg n gbr ubyq naq (znlor) uvwnpx gur ivfvbaf. Nalguvat zber guna gung
>naq gur jubyr frevrf orpbzrf zrnavatyrff. V'z abg jvyyvat gb sbyybj gung
>cngu.
Ab, abg rknpgyl. N unaq va fraqvat Pbeql, fheryl. "Fxvc, trg zr obea!"
"Evtug, obff." Fxvc fgrcf hc oruvaq Pbeql naq fubirf ure vagb gur
cbegny. Vg'f abg yvxr gung jbhyq or uneq. Ohg fraqvat Serq gb Clyrn?
Hu-hu. Gur cebsrffbe jub frag Serq gb Clyrn unq frag znal bgure
cebzvfvat fghqragf gur fnzr jnl. Vg jnf gur jevgref jub qrpvqrq bayl
Serq jbhyq nccrne va gur ivfvba.
Nsgre nyy, sbe Wnfzvar'f checbfrf, Serq arire znggrerq va gur yrnfg.
Sam
Mel wrote:
> Sam wrote:
>
> Fur gbyq Pbaabe, jub nyernql fnj guebhtu gur vyyhfvba naq pubfr gb
> sbyybj ure naljnl orpnhfr ure yvr jnf orggre guna gur erfg ur'q orra
> gbyq. Fur qvqa'g gryy nalbar ryfr.
>
Guvaxvat onpx, lbh'er evtug.
Vg fgvyy qbrfa'g punatr nalguvat, gubhtu. Ure sbyybjref qvqa'g unir
serr jvyy. Vs fur gbyq gurz, "V'z rngvat crbcyr," gurl'q unir orra svar
jvgu vg. Sbe gung znggre, vs lbh'er evtug naq fur ernyyl whfg jnagrq gb
ehyr gur jbeyq, nyy fur unq gb qb jnf fnl, "V nz n cbjreznq qrfcbg naq
V jnag lbh nyy gb ortva jbefuvccvat zr vzzrqvngryl," naq rirelbar ba
Rnegu jbhyq unir oyvffshyyl qbar whfg gung.
Fur ernyyl qvqa'g unir nal ernfba gb yvr gb ure sbyybjref.
--Sam
Sam
Mel wrote:
> Ohg gung vzcyvrf Wnfzvar unq n unaq va fraqvat Pbeql gb Clyrn va gur
> svefg cynpr naq V whfg qba'g ohl gung. Uryy, vg vzcyvrf fur neenatrq gb
> unir Serq frag gurer fb Pbeql jbhyq unir n ivfvba bs ure naq jbhyq or
> yrq gb bcra n cbegny gb Clyrn.
>
Vg vf jbegu zragvbavat gung Fxvc rkcyvpvgyl gryyf gurz gung Wnfzvar
neenatrq sbe Serq gb svaq gur obbx, trg frag gb Clyrn, naq trg Ybear
frag gb Rnegu.
"Lbh unir nal pbaprcg bs ubj znal yvarf unir gb vagrefrpg va beqre sbe
n guvat yvxr guvf gb cynl bhg? Ubj znal riragf unir gb or ahqtrq va
whfg gur evtug qverpgvba? (ybbxf ng Ybear) Yrnivat Clyrn. (ybbxf ng
Thaa) Lbhe fvfgre. (ybbxf ng Serq) Bcravat gur jebat obbx. (ybbxf ng
Jrfyrl) Fyrrcvat jvgu gur rarzl. Tbfu, V ybir n fgbel jvgu fpbcr."
> V'yy fgvpx jvgu zl bevtvany fgngrzrag: Wnfzvar pbagebyyrq abguvat hagvy
> Pbeql nterrq gb orpbzr cneg qrzba. Gung'f jura fur jnf svanyyl noyr gb
> trg n gbr ubyq naq (znlor) uvwnpx gur ivfvbaf. Nalguvat zber guna gung
> naq gur jubyr frevrf orpbzrf zrnavatyrff. V'z abg jvyyvat gb sbyybj gung
> cngu.
V fgvyy qba'g frr ubj nalguvat orpbzrf zrnavatyrff. Gur vqrn gung bhe
punenpgref unir cerqrfgvarq ebyrf vf bar gung unf orra va cynl fvapr
gur svefg frnfba bs "Ohssl". Nyy gur Wnfzvar fgbel qvq jnf npghnyyl
vagebqhpr hf gb gur orvat va punetr bs neenatvat fnvq qrfgvavrf.
Fcrpvsvpnyyl, vg fubhyq or nqqrq, fb gung bhe ureb pbhyq erory ntnvafg
gur irel pbaprcg bs cerqrfgvangvba, xvyy Tbq, naq nffreg gur
fbirervtagl bs serr jvyy bire qrfgval.
Gur vqrn gung gur Wnfzvar fgbel fgevcf gur punenpgref bs serr jvyy vf
yhqvpebhf.
--Sam
Slayah
> In article <1146535967....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> lone wolf demon hunter
>
> *rogue* demon hunter (hence the question: "What's a rogue demon?")
He also refers to himself as a lone wolf. Cordelia asks him "What are
you doing here, are you working with Angel now?" And he says something
like "A lone wolf such as myself never works with anybody."
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-5FB616...@news.giganews.com...
> >
> > >> Cordy: I'm never going to forgive him for doing this to me.
> > >> Barney: What? Choosing you? Trusting you with an enormous
> > >> responsibility? Believing that you where the only one worthy of such
> > >> a rare and important gift?
> > >> Cordy: Did I mention the drooling?
> > >> Barney: I get the impression that Doyle didn't have much by way of
> > >> possessions?
> > >> Cordy: No. No he didn't.
> > >> Barney: Seems like he gave you the most valuable thing he had.
> > >>
> > >> Those pesky evil demons with all their insight.
> > >
> > > bullshit. Pretty much everything else Barney said was a lie. Why not
> > > this too?
> >
> > Erm... because it's clearly true?
>
> no thought about passing on the visions. They just got passed along
> with it, like herpes.
>
xvff jnf gur zrnaf gb cnff vg ba. Qvqa'g Natry trg vg nsgre Pbeql xvffrq uvz
va "Lbh'er Jrypbzr"?
==(Harmony) Watcher==
Don Sample
Ur tbg bar ivfvba, abg n ohapu bs gurz, naq ntnva, V guvax gung Pbeql
whfg jnagrq gb xvff uvz. Fur qvqa'g unir gb xvff uvz gb tvir uvz gung
ivfvba. Vg jnf gjb vaqrcraqrag npgf.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
(Harmony) Watcher
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146748067....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Lbh frrz gb guvax gung gur zrgubq Wnfzvar hfrq--jungrire vg jnf--gb pnhfr
crbcyr gb ybfr gurve serr jvyy qbrf abg dhnyvsl nf n qrprcgvba ba Wnfzvar'f
cneg.
==Harmony Watcher==
James Craine
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 10: "Parting Gifts"
> (or "The eyes have it")
> Writers: David Fury and Jeannine Renshaw
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Well, seems that Quinn is still in the intro, which made me momentarily
> think things might have not been so final. One of the gaps Doyle left
> behind for the show was his visions and connection with the Powers That
> Be, which were such a plotwise driving force. I was curious whether
> they'd just drop that element, or what. Instead, the show makes a
> choice that seems so obvious in retrospect but didn't occur to me;
> pass the powers on (by mouth) to someone else. Rock Cordelia's world
> a little by forcing this dubious gift upon her. Here she tries to
> reject it, and momentarily flips out over the fear that Doyle was just
> using her- both reactions are exactly what one would expect from the
> character - but she won't be able to do that in the long term. End
> result is that all the vague running plots can be preserved, and
> there's plenty of potential character work to mine out of that too.
It looked to me like a retcon. Doyle didn't seem to be
planning to kiss Cordelia until the last second. So is it
only by luck that she got the visions? If he knew that the
had to pass the visions before he jumped then he would have
behaved a little differently before kissing CC.
>
> Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
> motorcycle-riding demon hunter. The setup is a little long, since we
> probably all figured out that it was Wesley long before the episode
> told us so (fumbling with the weapons case was pretty much the final
> giveaway). But in any case, our second-favorite ex-Watcher is now
> styling himself a lone wolf demon hunter. It's both different enough
> to be interesting, especially the initial attitude, and doesn't seem
> too outlandish given his personality. Denisof's delivery is good for
> some humor here, I think more so than on his BTVS appearances, and he
> might actually be a better fit for ATS. We shall, of course, see.
I was completly unspoiled and completly suprised. I thought
it was a great entrance.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> It looked to me like a retcon. Doyle didn't seem to be
> planning to kiss Cordelia until the last second. So is it
> only by luck that she got the visions? If he knew that the
> had to pass the visions before he jumped then he would have
> behaved a little differently before kissing CC.
Well, it's hard to call it a "retcon" given that there was a little
special effect during the kiss in "Hero." As for the rest, here the
show's vagueness abut how the PTB work helps prevent nitpicking.
"Parting Gifts" clearly shows that just kissing someone isn't enough to
transfer the visions. Maybe Doyle had a special trick that Cordelia
doesn't know about, or maybe there was something else that made the
fact that he was about to die special. My personal theory is that
Doyle didn't know that he "had" to give his gift away before dying, and
that kissing Cordy wasn't the only way by which it could've been
transferred.
> >
> > Big event number two is the emergence of a rogue leather-clad
> > motorcycle-riding demon hunter. The setup is a little long, since we
> > probably all figured out that it was Wesley long before the episode
> > told us so (fumbling with the weapons case was pretty much the final
> > giveaway).
>
> I was completly unspoiled and completly suprised. I thought
> it was a great entrance.
Am I the only one who pays close attention to the guest star credits
and gets excited or apprehensive accordingly?
-AOQ
Terry
news:1151875641.9...@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
> Am I the only one who pays close attention to the guest star credits
> and gets excited or apprehensive accordingly?
Nope! Not at all.
Which, to go back to a different topic, was why when (Rot-13 for an episode
you've seen, AOQ, but is spoilery for someone who's not watched Angel
season 2)
Jura Whyvn Yrr'f perqvg pnzr hc va "Oybbq Zbarl" vg jnf rnfl sbe fbzr bs hf
gb fcbg ure. Ohg gura, fbzr bs hf ner ynzr!
I've been known to get all happy with certain guest star credits.
Terry
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> James Craine wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > It looked to me like a retcon. Doyle didn't seem to be
> > planning to kiss Cordelia until the last second. So is it
> > only by luck that she got the visions? If he knew that the
> > had to pass the visions before he jumped then he would have
> > behaved a little differently before kissing CC.
>
> Well, it's hard to call it a "retcon" given that there was a little
> special effect during the kiss in "Hero." As for the rest, here the
> show's vagueness abut how the PTB work helps prevent nitpicking.
> "Parting Gifts" clearly shows that just kissing someone isn't enough to
> transfer the visions. Maybe Doyle had a special trick that Cordelia
> doesn't know about, or maybe there was something else that made the
> fact that he was about to die special. My personal theory is that
> Doyle didn't know that he "had" to give his gift away before dying, and
> that kissing Cordy wasn't the only way by which it could've been
> transferred.
If Doyle could have given the visions away, don't you think he would
have, long ago? I think that the kiss was just about kissing Cordy
before he died. He had no idea that the visions would get passed along
with it.
Mel
But you keep saying you don't like spoilers so stop looking at the
credits! ;-)
Really, though, just looking at the screen shots they use for each
episode on the dvds can be spoilery. For instance, the "Crush" screen
shows Drusilla plain as day. Kind of annoying if you didn't want to have
any idea she was going to show up.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Really, though, just looking at the screen shots they use for each
> episode on the dvds can be spoilery. For instance, the "Crush" screen
> shows Drusilla plain as day. Kind of annoying if you didn't want to have
> any idea she was going to show up.
I do my best to avoid looking at the screen shots for exactly that
reason. I live for the visceral thrill of suddenly seeing a name in
the opening credits that I hadn't been expecting (i.e. "Sanctuary").
-AOQ
~well, not *live* for it per se, but...~
Eric Hunter
I urge you in the strongest terms possible to not
look at the face of Season 6, Disc 1 of BtVS. At
least in the Chosen Collection, it is a huge
spoiler. (Qnegu Ebfraoret)
Eric.
--
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I urge you in the strongest terms possible to not
> look at the face of Season 6, Disc 1 of BtVS. At
> least in the Chosen Collection, it is a huge
> spoiler. (Qnegu Ebfraoret)
I'll try.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
They had to ruin a perfectly good kiss!</sarcasm>
--
==Harmony Watcher==