Spike has a soul??????
Incubus
could kill somebody by draining his/her humanity. He stated that spike and
his girlfriend reaked of humanity, which to me states a essense of human
soul. Does this confirm then that a vampire does not lose his human souls
but it is merged with a demonic one and if this is the case then the gypsey
spell would not work in the way its supposed to as it is meant to return the
soul to the vampire rather than rip the demon soul out. If the latter was
the effect then how could they put the no true happiness clause in?
hmm
Anthony Stephens
> <...>
> We have been told too many times that the vamps don't have souls. I
> think the Judge referred to a pollution of their demon nature by their
> human personality, which we know is retained by the vampires. This
> contrasted with Angelus, who's demon nature had completely perverted
> his human personality into the evil opposite.
Did you see Liam before he was vamped? Hard pressed to say Angelus was his
"opposite" in any form at all.
DannyboymcNY
>From: "Incubus" inc...@hellfire.com
>Date: 7/5/2001 5:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <7GW07.3417$Jk6.8...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
The only vampire that has a human soul is Angel. But I would suppose that any
vampire would reek of humanity in that they have human bodies.
Incubus
liv <l...@ziplink.net> wrote in message
news:1WREO9JoGWWA03Q0H5XxKuQAHGp=@4ax.com...
> We have been told too many times that the vamps don't have souls. I
> think the Judge referred to a pollution of their demon nature by their
> human personality, which we know is retained by the vampires. This
> contrasted with Angelus, who's demon nature had completely perverted
> would be a fairly common side effect of demon's inhabiting human
> bodies, and might be something similar to, but not the same as,
> Glory's problems with Ben.
well then it makes me ask what a soul is in the buffyverse. Where i see, it
is what defines you and is shaped by your surroundings. it is your passions,
your wisdom, it is you. From what i see spike and his former girlfriend do
have a soul in some sense
>
> liv
> l...@garbage.ziplink.net
> take out the garbage to reply...
>
> If you can't beat your computer at chess try kickboxing.
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010705142911...@ng-ms1.aol.com...
yes i keep hearing this but i don't think thats what he meant as he followed
up to say that angel had none. Does anyone think the script writers have
plans for spike?
Lord Usher
<ur217.4434$Tv5.6...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> well then it makes me ask what a soul is in the buffyverse. Where i see,
> it is what defines you and is shaped by your surroundings. it is your
> passions, your wisdom, it is you.
In the Buffyverse, though, it's much more specific than that. A lot of your
"youness" does not reside in the soul; your memories, your emotions, your
basic personality -- these are external to the soul, such that they are
passed on to the vampire even when your soul flies off into the ether.
The soul is merely the seat of conscience. It's what grants you spiritual
fulfillment when you do something good, and fills you with remorse when you
do something evil.
So Spike might have a lot of the personality of William the Bloody Awful
Poet. He might even think he *is* William. But that doesn't mean that he
possesses William's soul. But as long as he does not express remorse over
his crimes; as long as he's uninterested in doing good for its own sake,
there's no reason to believe that he possesses William's soul.
--
Lord Usher
"Don't we kill 'em any more?"
Lord Usher
<9i3gou$cmn$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
> >In the Buffyverse, though, it's much more specific than that. A lot of
> >your "youness" does not reside in the soul; your memories, your
> >emotions, your basic personality -- these are external to the soul, such
> >that they are passed on to the vampire even when your soul flies off
> >into the ether.
>
> are passed on with the soul
Only if a ghost is just a disembodied soul, which is not necessarily the
case.
The existence of ghosts implies that the memory/personality/emotions of a
person can exist independent of their body. But it doesn't therefore follow
that these aspects adhere to the soul. It's just as plausible that there's
a *third* aspect of identity besides the body and the soul -- the "spirit,"
if you will -- which carries a person's thoughts and feelings.
Incubus
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:33:28 +0100, "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> (snip)
> >well then it makes me ask what a soul is in the buffyverse. Where i see,
it
> >is what defines you and is shaped by your surroundings. it is your
passions,
> >your wisdom, it is you. From what i see spike and his former girlfriend
do
> >have a soul in some sense
> That sounds more like what most people would like to have be a soul in
> our current world. It isn't what Thomas Aquinas would have thought a
> soul was, for example. The word 'soul' can be burdened with more than
> one definition.
>
> In the Buffyverse, the soul seems to be a well defined thing, but not
> made up of personality at all. The vamped lose their souls. They keep
> their personalities. They remain passionate and remember what they
> used to know. Therefore, that stuff does not make up a soul. We *know*
> that vampires don't have souls.
so what does make up a soul in the buffyverse?
Incubus
Lord Usher <lord_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:01c105cd$a7fe9b00$b9086c40@house-of-usher...
now that sounds a little too convenient. If the soul is only your conscience
then why is it cast as such a big thing? I think if the soul does exist then
it would be a lot bigger than that
Incubus
Ken Arromdee <arro...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:9i3gou$cmn$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> In article <01c105cd$a7fe9b00$b9086c40@house-of-usher>,
> Lord Usher <lord_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In the Buffyverse, though, it's much more specific than that. A lot of
your
> >"youness" does not reside in the soul; your memories, your emotions, your
> >basic personality -- these are external to the soul, such that they are
> >passed on to the vampire even when your soul flies off into the ether.
>
are
aha. so now we are getting somewhere
good argument
> --
> Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
>
> "The truest mark of a Mary Sue is not how she's described or what she
does,
> but the effect the sheer fact of her existence in the story has on the
other
> characters in the story. If program characters start worrying endlessly
about
> her, or go all gooey because she's just so darn cute or smart ... the
girl's
> a Mary Sue." --Paula Smith
Incubus
or perhaps the consciesness does reside in the soul. I have observed no
arguments as to why not
Don Sample
<inc...@hellfire.com> wrote:
Once again time for my Buffyverse three part entity theory:
Creatures in the Buffyverse seem to be composed of three components.
Body, spirit, and soul.
- The body is just meat.
- The spirit carries the intelligence, and the memories.
- The soul carries the emotions and other intangibles, such as the
conscience.
Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy was
becoming in _Living Conditions_.
It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
Vampires are special cases. They have souls, but their souls are
demonic. The original human soul has been evicted and replaced by a
demon. Perhaps a demon spirit comes along for the ride too, but the
original spirit is still there. This is one reason why becoming a
vampire is worse than dieing. The person's spirit stays trapped in the
body, unable to move on. Perhaps eternally.
Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://www.synapse.net/~dsample/BBC
Quando omni flunkus moritati
David Cheatham
deja.com says...
And, of course, it might not be that a person's soul actually *is* linked
to the ghost, it might be *just* their spirit.
Of course, Dennis does seem somewhat nice, and not soulless at all. But
it's hard to tell.
--
-David T. Cheatham, da...@creeknet.com
'What's the plan?' 'The vampire attacks you.' 'And then what?'
'The vampire kills you. We watch, we rejoice.' -Cordy and Xander, BtVS
David Adrien Tanguay
> It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
The zombies in Dead Man's Party.
--
David Tanguay d...@Thinkage.ca http://www.thinkage.ca/~dat/
Thinkage, Ltd. Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.24N 80.29W]
David Cheatham
says...
I'm not sure about the 'emotions'. While they may 'reside' in the soul,
the spirit is the thing that makes the emotion in the first place. So
Spike still falls madly in love, Angel has a thing for blondes, etc. They
just express these things differently.
> Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
>
> Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
> sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy was
> becoming in _Living Conditions_.
Or that kid on Angel.
> It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
I don't think the spirit is an actual 'thing'. It's just the memories. It
gets copied to ghosts, but it also remains in the body. (Think about
vamping someone who becomes a ghost.) It sticks around with both the body
and the soul. It's like the soul is a computer, the body is a hard drive,
but the spirit is just some data. Okay, that analogy is rather wacky, but
my point is that a spirit is duplicatable. (And you can probably put them
back together, too.) (Obviously the body is duplicatable, too. Hell, we
can do that with science, today.)
Idly, I think that's what happened to Xander when he was split in half.
He end up with one soul, two identical bodies, and different parts of his
spirit suppressed in both. Both of them knew obvious things, like 'Buffy
kills vampires.', but Weak Xander, when he though of doing anything, he
came up with the most paranoid and failurey memories. Strong Xander came
up with much more positive memories, and that was the sum of their
differences. (Xander, however, has a *lot* of failure memories.)
> Vampires are special cases. They have souls, but their souls are
> demonic. The original human soul has been evicted and replaced by a
> demon. Perhaps a demon spirit comes along for the ride too, but the
> original spirit is still there. This is one reason why becoming a
> vampire is worse than dieing. The person's spirit stays trapped in the
> body, unable to move on. Perhaps eternally.
I'm pretty sure that vampires have no demon spirit. They've never
referred to any non-host memories they have. Heck, most of the modern
ones even go by the same *name*. Considering how pathetic they usually
think their non-vamped self was, if they had another name, I'm sure
they would change. At most, they get a few instincts, though I suspect
those are from the magical transformation to the body, and not a spirit
change.
> Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
> vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
> him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
> with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
> keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
I'm convinced that the Gypsy curse did more then just disable the vampire
soul and stick the human one on top. I'm convinced it actually *made* him
feel guilty, just like Willow's spell *made* Spike and Buffy want to get
married, or the Glory/Ben forgetfulness spell *made* people instantly
forget that...um...something.
DannyboymcNY
>From: arro...@rahul.net (Ken Arromdee)
>Date: 7/6/2001 1:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <9i3gou$cmn$1...@samba.rahul.net>
>>"youness" does not reside in the soul; your memories, your emotions, your
>>basic personality -- these are external to the soul, such that they are
>>passed on to the vampire even when your soul flies off into the ether.
>
>We've seen ghosts in the Buffyverse. They imply that memories and such are
This is what I was thinking, too. The memories/emotions/whatever must be
imprinted on the body after years of being together. Or, possibly, the
vamp-demon somehow makes a copy of all this stuff before kicking out the soul.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/6/2001 5:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.15aff821d...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>
>soul and stick the human one on top. I'm convinced it actually *made* him
>feel guilty, just like Willow's spell *made* Spike and Buffy want to get
>married, or the Glory/Ben forgetfulness spell *made* people instantly
>forget that...um...something.
This makes sense. The gypsy who cursed Angelus had no way of knowing what kind
of person he was before being vamped. For all she knew, he was a twisted
killer as a human. If that were the case, he wouldn't suffer with a human
soul. He'd just go on killing as usual.
If this were the case, you'd have to wonder how Angel could truly redeem
himself. After all, his guilt would no longer be true remorse. He'd simply be
responding to the curse.
Don Sample
<d...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> > It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> > haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> > pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
>
> The zombies in Dead Man's Party.
> --
> David Tanguay
Zombies are hard to categorize. The DMP zombies seemed pretty
mindless, but Jack O'Toole's gang seemed to have kept their
personalities.
OTOP we have the zombie cops from _Thin Dead Line_. They didn't seem
to have much personality. They were "law enforcement" automatons.
("Law enforcement" in quotes since they were more about harassing
people than actually enforcing any laws.)
Incubus
> The capacity for good and evil, as opposed to lawful and chaotic? Or
> so I think. I suspect that the heart of this system is a d and d
> arrangement. Most demons have no soul, but some obey laws and can live
> in all sorts of societies, obeying their laws (Spike is lawful, and
> has some sense of fair treatment, and showed it in the final episodes
> of last season);
Lawful what? lawful good? lawful evil? I would regard spike as chatic evil
as he has no respect for the rules and traditions of evil, or good. or
anything for that matter but although i haven't seen as many episodes as the
rest of you, i think there is definately good in spike regardless of how
much he would deny it :-)
humans have souls and can be good or evil, so they
> have a choice. Perhaps Gods, like Glory, don't choose to be good or
> evil, but have in them the essence of one or the other, and may not be
> able to choose their orientation; perhaps some are also the essence of
> Law or the essence of Chaos.
ooh i don't know. I always imagined that gods were the alignment they
created as opposed to enforcing it or choosing to follow it
>
> Thinking a soul is what you get when you have free will
hmm its a good thought, though spike and most vampires and demons in the
buffyverse seem to have free will .
Incubus
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:07:43 +0100, "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com>
> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >or perhaps the consciesness does reside in the soul. I have observed no
> >arguments as to why not
> Well, Angel was gifted with a soul, there is no evidence that it was
> 'his' soul. The demon roommatewanted to steal Buffy's soul, and was by
> way of being successful in integrating that soul: she wasn't becoming
> Buffy.
so what did she need the soul for?
Incubus
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:060720010923210863%dsa...@synapse.net...
>
> - The spirit carries the intelligence, and the memories.
hmm
> - The soul carries the emotions and other intangibles, such as the
> conscience.
hmm
> Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
i follow
> Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
> sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy was
> becoming in _Living Conditions_.
erm your logic is faultless
>
> It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
somebody that knows right from wrong and has no memories or passions
excellent aguments BUT the soul has the conscience but consciounce relies on
guilt which is an emotion and part of the spirit and not the soul. Why is it
inconceivable that the soul and spirit are the same thing?
>
> Vampires are special cases. They have souls, but their souls are
> demonic. The original human soul has been evicted and replaced by a
> demon. Perhaps a demon spirit comes along for the ride too, but the
> original spirit is still there. This is one reason why becoming a
> vampire is worse than dieing. The person's spirit stays trapped in the
> body, unable to move on. Perhaps eternally.
or until staked :-)
>
> Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
> vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
> him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
> with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
> keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
>
why not simply replace it?
Incubus
> In article <3B45D084...@thinkage.ca>, David Adrien Tanguay
> <d...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>
> > Don Sample wrote:
> > > It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> > > haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> > > pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
> >
> > The zombies in Dead Man's Party.
> > --
> > David Tanguay
>
> Zombies are hard to categorize. The DMP zombies seemed pretty
> mindless, but Jack O'Toole's gang seemed to have kept their
> personalities.
>
> OTOP we have the zombie cops from _Thin Dead Line_. They didn't seem
> to have much personality. They were "law enforcement" automatons.
> ("Law enforcement" in quotes since they were more about harassing
> people than actually enforcing any laws.)
>
which is usually a sorcerer or a lich, then theres ones that you see in the
horror films that only live to eat human brains and have no other passions.
They are not proper zombies, they are halfway between zombie an lich; then
there is the lich which is an undead being with a soul and a spirit a bit
like a vampire but without the fangs or blood craving. These are of course
relevent to the archiives of mythology and AD&D and don't seem to apply in
the buffyverse
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
if i were angel i would plead diminished responsibility due to being a evil
vampire monster and my own soul being missing.
its a good way to get immortality though. Get vamped then get some mage or
witch to give you your soul back.
David Cheatham
says...
> In article <3B45D084...@thinkage.ca>, David Adrien Tanguay
> <d...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>
> > Don Sample wrote:
> > > It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> > > haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> > > pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
> >
> > The zombies in Dead Man's Party.
> > --
> > David Tanguay
>
> Zombies are hard to categorize. The DMP zombies seemed pretty
> mindless, but Jack O'Toole's gang seemed to have kept their
> personalities.
>
> OTOP we have the zombie cops from _Thin Dead Line_. They didn't seem
> to have much personality. They were "law enforcement" automatons.
> ("Law enforcement" in quotes since they were more about harassing
> people than actually enforcing any laws.)
So, we've basically got two different kinds of zombie, the one with some
external magical purpose 'harass kids, retrieve the mask', and the ones
that acted exactly like humans, or like humans without souls. (I don't
think we can discount the idea that Jack and his goons *had* their
souls.)
Maybe the only reason that Jack and crew acted normal was that they had
their soul back, glued to their bodies by magic, and their bodies
themselves were moving though magic.
I'm not really convinced being without *some* kind of soul exist in the
Buffyverse, be it demon, human or other. Anything without some kind of
soul is most probably not capable of making decisions on their own.
Ivytree
This is what I just don't get about your concept. Plenty of people *with*
souls never express remorse over their crimes, even in the Buffyverse, and
are uninterested in doing good "for it's own sake" (whatever that means). If
having a soul doesn't mean that you are impelled to do these things, why
does not having one mean you're prevented from doing them?
And, though he seemed inoffensive enough, we didn't really get to know
William the Bloody Awful Poet well enough to know whether he would express
remorse over any crimes.
Incubus
Ivytree <lsan...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:9i517b$q...@dispatch.concentric.net...
you have a good point but these remorseless people started like the rest of
us and some how lost the way but even they usually have a motive for their
crimes. Vampires or prodomently demon and demons start off evil, they are
created that way.
>
>
Ivytree
amoral. And what about good guy demon/human hybrids, like Doyle?
> It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
>
> Vampires are special cases. They have souls, but their souls are
> demonic. The original human soul has been evicted and replaced by a
> demon. Perhaps a demon spirit comes along for the ride too, but the
> original spirit is still there. This is one reason why becoming a
> vampire is worse than dieing. The person's spirit stays trapped in the
> body, unable to move on. Perhaps eternally.
When the soul is evicted, where the heck does it go? Is is wandering around?
In Heaven/Hell? In Limbo? Is it destroyed? What happens when a vamp is
re-souled, like Angel? Did he get his original Liam soul back, or is it a
new one? If it's the one he had before he was vamped, where was it? If it's
a new one, where did it come from? What about Anya/Anyanka? Did she have
Anya's human soul when she was a vengeance demon? If not, where was it? Does
she have one now? If so, where did it come from? Is it the one Anya had, or
a different one?
Don Sample
<lsan...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:060720010923210863%dsa...@synapse.net...
> > Once again time for my Buffyverse three part entity theory:
> >
> > Creatures in the Buffyverse seem to be composed of three components.
> > Body, spirit, and soul.
> >
> > - The body is just meat.
> >
> > - The spirit carries the intelligence, and the memories.
> >
> > - The soul carries the emotions and other intangibles, such as the
> > conscience.
> >
> > Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
> >
> > Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
> > sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy was
> > becoming in _Living Conditions_.
> >
> I don't see any reason to believe that Lorne (the Host) is completely
> amoral. And what about good guy demon/human hybrids, like Doyle?
There are a lot of different demons from a lot of different places.
Not all demons are soulless. They just have demonic souls. Some
demonic souls, such as the ones vampires have, are evil. Some, such as
Lorne's, aren't.
Lorne does seem to be a bit of an aberation for his race though. They
may not be very evil, but, by and large, they ain't too good either.
David Cheatham
says...
Lorne has a soul. It's a 'demon' soul. (I notice we're almost Robert
Asprin like in defining 'demon'. It's now short for 'people from another
dimension.'.) Lorne just doesn't have a human soul.
Buffy was ending up with *no* soul, which completely, apparently, removes
the idea that some things are not 'good' to do, even if they appear to
benefit you. You turn into an amoral pragmatist, and can even start
thinking 'kill them all and let God sort them out'.
And, contrary to what they seem to think on the show, *all* demons
apparently have some sense of morals. It's just not our earth morals.
For example, Lorne apparently has a moral rule that he doesn't tell
people what other people's future hold for them. He's bent that slightly
a few times, but seems uncomfortable doing it, just like humans will
sometimes bend their morals for a greater good.
Kathy, the soul sucking roommate, had a father that apparently thought it
was 'wrong' to come here, or something she had done was wrong.
Spike is an outcast from other demons by killing them, but I don't know
if that's a 'moral rule' exactly.
> > It is hard to say what a body, without a spirit would be like, we
> > haven't really seen an example of one yet. I suspect that it would
> > pretty much be a mindless. Maybe even permanently comatose.
> >
> > Vampires are special cases. They have souls, but their souls are
> > demonic. The original human soul has been evicted and replaced by a
> > demon. Perhaps a demon spirit comes along for the ride too, but the
> > original spirit is still there. This is one reason why becoming a
> > vampire is worse than dieing. The person's spirit stays trapped in the
> > body, unable to move on. Perhaps eternally.
>
> When the soul is evicted, where the heck does it go? Is is wandering around?
> In Heaven/Hell? In Limbo? Is it destroyed? What happens when a vamp is
> re-souled, like Angel? Did he get his original Liam soul back, or is it a
> new one? If it's the one he had before he was vamped, where was it? If it's
> a new one, where did it come from? What about Anya/Anyanka? Did she have
> Anya's human soul when she was a vengeance demon? If not, where was it? Does
> she have one now? If so, where did it come from? Is it the one Anya had, or
> a different one?
Angel's soul was 'in the ether'. I'm going with a theory that Anyanka's
soul was in the necklace, and was released when it broke, or something
like that.
> >
> > Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
> > vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
> > him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
> > with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
> > keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
> >
>
--
Regertz
victim's soul was somewhere around, trapped by the vamp curse into watching
what the demon counterpart does with the body...
It has seemed like Spike fits more into this frame than the strictly
demon/monster...And that Whedon is gradually working the series line into this
direction...
Which I guess would mean someone like poor human Dru is almost completely
trapped in limbo whereas William the poet "peaks" out occasionally...
David Cheatham
says...
Actually, *Lorne* is 'evil', or at least immoral, as he does *not* follow
the standard moral code for his race. ;)
Of course, no one with music in their heart can actually be evil. ;)
The Evil Toad
article <JAm17.1219$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
>
>liv <l...@ziplink.net> wrote in message
>news:AKxFO89zuQn8Gh...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:07:43 +0100, "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>> >or perhaps the consciesness does reside in the soul. I have observed no
>> >arguments as to why not
>> -----------
>> Well, Angel was gifted with a soul, there is no evidence that it was
>> 'his' soul. The demon roommatewanted to steal Buffy's soul, and was by
>> way of being successful in integrating that soul: she wasn't becoming
>> Buffy.
>
>so what did she need the soul for?
The demon roomate ran away from home to go to school. The demons her father
employed to locate her based their search on her lack of a soul.
She decided to take Buffy's in the hope that they would collect Buffy
intead.
Lord Usher
> > So Spike might have a lot of the personality of William the Bloody
> > Awful Poet. He might even think he *is* William. But that doesn't mean
> > that he possesses William's soul. But as long as he does not express
> > remorse over his crimes; as long as he's uninterested in doing good
> > for its own sake, there's no reason to believe that he possesses
> > William's soul.
>
> now that sounds a little too convenient. If the soul is only your
> conscience then why is it cast as such a big thing?
Well, because the conscience *is* a big thing. It's what keeps us from
indulging our basest urges, and destroying other people's lives to make our
own more pleasant, and killing every jerk who pisses us off. It's what
motivates us to stand up to injustice, to improve the lives of our fellow
man.
How much "bigger" does it have to be?
Lord Usher
<9i517b$q...@dispatch.concentric.net>...
> This is what I just don't get about your concept. Plenty of people *with*
> souls never express remorse over their crimes, even in the Buffyverse,
> and are uninterested in doing good "for it's own sake" (whatever that
> means). If having a soul doesn't mean that you are impelled to do these
> things, why does not having one mean you're prevented from doing them?
Plenty of people with souls never *express* remorse over their crimes. But
it doesn't therefore follow that they don't *feel* remorse. They may just
happen to be really good at repressing their basic urge to do what's right
-- just as Spike has become very good at repressing his basic urge to do
what's wrong.
Regardless, the logic of your argument is faulty. Even if the soul didn't
guarantee that one would feel remorse, it wouldn't follow that a soulless
creature could. That's like arguing that if a particular guy with two legs
can't run a marathon, a guy with *no* legs should be able to run the
marathon.
> And, though he seemed inoffensive enough, we didn't really get to know
> William the Bloody Awful Poet well enough to know whether he would
> express remorse over any crimes.
Oh, I think it's pretty safe to assume that William would've had a problem
with torturing and murdering a bunch of innocent people. We have no reason
to believe he was a psychopath, after all.
Besides, if William had no compunction about killing people, why didn't he
give it a try before?
David Cheatham
says...
> On 6 Jul 2001 14:40:04 -0500, Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <9i52f8$q...@dispatch.concentric.net>, Ivytree
> ><lsan...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> >> news:060720010923210863%dsa...@synapse.net...
> >> > Once again time for my Buffyverse three part entity theory:
> >> >
> >> > Creatures in the Buffyverse seem to be composed of three components.
> >> > Body, spirit, and soul.
> >> >
> >> > - The body is just meat.
> >> >
> >> > - The spirit carries the intelligence, and the memories.
> >> >
> >> > - The soul carries the emotions and other intangibles, such as the
> >> > conscience.
> >> >
> >> > Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
> >> >
> >> > Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
> >> > sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy was
> >> > becoming in _Living Conditions_.
> >> >
> >> I don't see any reason to believe that Lorne (the Host) is completely
> >> amoral. And what about good guy demon/human hybrids, like Doyle?
> >
> >There are a lot of different demons from a lot of different places.
> >Not all demons are soulless. They just have demonic souls. Some
> >demonic souls, such as the ones vampires have, are evil. Some, such as
> >Lorne's, aren't.
> Why do you think there are demon souls? In the Buffyverse, of course.
> In your own storys, if you write them, or your own interpretation of
> mythology, that's different.
Because we've actually had them mentioned before, in the second episode
of the entire series:
Xander: So vampires are demons?
Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a
human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the
demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth,
feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of
their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to
return.
vampire=human form+demon soul
Completely amoral people do not wander around drinking blood and killing
people. The demon soul says 'Do that!' and they do.
> Doyle had a soul, of course, because of his human heritage. Half
> humans may not all have souls, I don't think they've gone into that,
> but clearly a lot of them do.
Doyle probably had a mixed soul, part random demon and part human.
> We saw a human without a soul, maybe they will meet a demon born with
> a soul, but I don't think anyone has shown up yet.
> ----------
> >Lorne does seem to be a bit of an aberation for his race though. They
> >may not be very evil, but, by and large, they ain't too good either.
> --------------
> I still say it is a matter of lawful-chaotic-balance. Whistler tells
> us he is in favor of balancing law and chaos, to preserve the
> pleasures of the real world, which would be destroyed if either side
> wins.
Yes, that's why Whistler is on the side of 'good' because he's lawful.
> The demon the demonologist was going to marry acted like humans, like
> creatures with souls, but in the end, they were lawful, and followed
> laws that seem immoral. Assuming they were souled creatures, because
> they acted good, was her mistake.
They *were* acting good. According to *their* moral code.
> Lorne doesn't tell our heros that Harmony will turn on them. He
> behaves lawfully, according to his rules, not interfering. Wouldn't
> someone with a soul have dropped a hint? Well, hard to tell, but I
> found it suggestive.
Lorne *likes* Angel and gang. If he was soulless, he *would* have dropped
a hint. However, Lorne's ethics and morals forbid him to tell someone
someone else's future, or anything he reads off them.
Actually, he's broken these ethics a few times, and has always seemed
uncomfortable doing so.
himiko
> Which I guess would mean someone like poor human Dru is almost completely
> trapped in limbo whereas William the poet "peaks" out occasionally...
Or that poor human Dru has watched all along, unable to turn away as
most vamps' human souls do. It would certainly explain why she's as
mad as a hatter. And also why William is only slowly starting to
venture forth...now that he's sure he won't be running into his own
personal horror show every few hours.
Don Sample
<l...@ziplink.net> wrote:
> On 6 Jul 2001 14:40:04 -0500, Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <9i52f8$q...@dispatch.concentric.net>, Ivytree
> ><lsan...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> >> news:060720010923210863%dsa...@synapse.net...
> >> > Once again time for my Buffyverse three part entity theory:
> >> >
> >> > Creatures in the Buffyverse seem to be composed of three components.
> >> > Body, spirit, and soul.
> >> >
> >> > - The body is just meat.
> >> >
> >> > - The spirit carries the intelligence, and the memories.
> >> >
> >> > - The soul carries the emotions and other intangibles, such as the
> >> > conscience.
> >> >
> >> > Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
> >> >
> >> > Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
> >> > sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy was
> >> > becoming in _Living Conditions_.
> >> >
> >> I don't see any reason to believe that Lorne (the Host) is completely
> >> amoral. And what about good guy demon/human hybrids, like Doyle?
> >
> >There are a lot of different demons from a lot of different places.
> >Not all demons are soulless. They just have demonic souls. Some
> >demonic souls, such as the ones vampires have, are evil. Some, such as
> >Lorne's, aren't.
> ------------
> Why do you think there are demon souls? In the Buffyverse, of course.
> In your own storys, if you write them, or your own interpretation of
> mythology, that's different.
It has been explicitly stated that demons have souls:
_The Harvest_
Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a
human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by
the demon's soul.
Master: My blood is your blood. My soul is your soul.
_I Robot--You Jane_
Giles: In the dark ages the souls of demons were sometimes trapped in
certain volumes.
Some Psycho Named Sam
> Oh, I think it's pretty safe to assume that William would've had a problem
> with torturing and murdering a bunch of innocent people. We have no reason
> to believe he was a psychopath, after all.
>
I think it's also worth noting that in the Angel episode "I've Got You
Under My Skin", we're actually shown outright that psychopaths act as
they do because they don't have souls. Why is never explained, but in
the Buffyverse, some people are born without souls.
Human beings who actually don't feel any remorse for committing evil,
in the Buffyverse, are soulless.
Some Psycho Named Sam
I think it's worth noting that Lorne is pretty darn amoral by our
standards, too. In his first appearance, he gives readings like,
"There's more to life than eating your young" just as jovially as with
the ones he gives Angel. And he had absolutely no problem advising
Harmony, or the lawyers from Wolfram and Hart.
The Host puts people on their path. He doesn't really seem to care one
way or the other whether that path is good, evil, or somewhere in
between.
Tim Bruening
So we can assume that the Buffyverse Hitler was soulless, as were Buffyverse Stalin, Buffyverse Idi Amin,
Buffyverse Pol Pot, Buffyverse Jeffrey Dalhmer, and Buffyverse Timothy McVeigh.
What happens when a vampire tries to vamp a soulless person?
Tim Bruening
Some Psycho Named Sam wrote:
> I think it's worth noting that Lorne is pretty darn amoral by our
> standards, too. In his first appearance, he gives readings like,
> "There's more to life than eating your young" just as jovially as with
> the ones he gives Angel. And he had absolutely no problem advising
> Harmony, or the lawyers from Wolfram and Hart.
Since Lorne's people do eat their young, its not surprising that he wouldn't be bothered by Terrestrial
demons eating their young.
Incubus
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:17:33 +0100, "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com>
> Lawful doesn't have to be good or evil. One example, from a recent
> show: Spike apparently believes in treating people fairly when they
> treat him fairly,
I agree but i was speaking from ad&d terms which likes nice tidy labels :-)
and he can even be trusted to some extent. You can
> interpret this as good, but it doesn't have to be good, just because
> it has a good result. It is following a law. If you do this, Spike
> will do this. By the same token, his chip forces him not to kill, this
> doesn't make him good, and it is not a soul, it simply enforces a law.
>
yes, I think spike tries to be evil because of the rebel in him but i also
think there is a lot of good in hiim.
To say the least he ais likeable. Well I like him anyway. i would never call
him lawful though. He has never been one for following rules except the ones
enforced upon him by that chip
> Angel/Angelus tends to be chaotic, whether he is good or evil, and the
> contrast is one reason why Spike and Angel have so little respect for
> each other, I think, although Dru is also Chaotic, but then, she is a
> girl, and Spike is susceptible to that sort of thing.
again i agree including the chaotic bit. the vampire Angelus (is he
italian?) was the most bolistic vampire i saw. Rules what rules? he made
spike look like a model citizen :-)
>
> As Spike is forced by his chip to act in different ways, I think he is
> beginning to appreciate the pleasures of balance more--that is, he is
> becoming more like Whistler in his general attitude, and less like the
> earlier Spike, who did believe in keeping things under control, in any
> case, to keep up a supply of happy meals. This still doesn't require a
> soul.
well i honestly think he has one or maybe if he doesn't then he is
developing one
> ---------------------------
> >humans have souls and can be good or evil, so they
> >> have a choice. Perhaps Gods, like Glory, don't choose to be good or
> >> evil, but have in them the essence of one or the other, and may not be
> >> able to choose their orientation; perhaps some are also the essence of
> >> Law or the essence of Chaos.
> >
> >ooh i don't know. I always imagined that gods were the alignment they
> >created as opposed to enforcing it or choosing to follow it
> >>
> >> Thinking a soul is what you get when you have free will
> >
> >hmm its a good thought, though spike and most vampires and demons in the
> >buffyverse seem to have free will .
> --------------------------------------------------
> No, they seem to be controlled by their natures. They can choose to
> have chocolate or vanilla or bile flavored ice cream, of course, but
> vamps gotta bite, and ...well, you get the idea. Angel's soul allows
> him to overcome the demon nature, as a human soul is supposed to help
> us overcome our animal urges.
Incubus
The Evil Toad <eviltoad@invalid> wrote in message
news:hihcktcdp07hq168r...@4ax.com...
oh yes. I remember that one now. They were wierd looking and dressed in
black yes? I remember she nearly succeeded in her slow quest. That was a
good episode.
The Bufster without a soul would be another faith i think :-) if the
definition of the soul on here fits buffyverse rules
>
>
Lord Usher
> or perhaps the consciesness does reside in the soul. I have observed no
> arguments as to why not
I think the consciousness *does* reside in the soul. But that's a different
question altogether, and has nothing to do with whether the soul is the
seat of emotion or memory or intellect.
The evidence that the soul is not the seat of any of these things is that
vampires don't get your soul, but they do get your emotions and memories
and intellect.
Lord Usher
> excellent aguments BUT the soul has the conscience but consciounce relies
> on guilt which is an emotion and part of the spirit and not the soul.
If you break it down enough, you could argue that any twinge of conscience
is a twinge of emotion. You *feel* good when you do something good, and
feel bad when you do something bad.
But all that means is that there is a special class of feeling -- moral
feeling -- that originates within the soul. It's still possible that other
feelings, personal feelings, still originate within the spirit.
> > Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
> > vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
> > him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
> > with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
> > keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
> >
> why not simply replace it?
Because the demon soul is what animates the dead body. Without the demon
essence, Angel's just a pile of dust, and thus there's nothing for the
human soul to inhabit.
Lord Usher
<MPG.15b024011...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
> I'm not really convinced being without *some* kind of soul exist in the
> Buffyverse, be it demon, human or other. Anything without some kind of
> soul is most probably not capable of making decisions on their own.
The Ethros demon in IGYUMS implied that Ryan had no soul of any kind. Thus,
he was driven only by emotional whim, and not out of a belief in either
good or evil.
IOW, a creature with a demonic soul is immoral, whereas a creature with
*no* soul is amoral.
Elaine McCue
Anthony Stephens <ton...@pe.net> wrote in message
news:3B4490E8...@pe.net...
> liv wrote:
>
> > <...>
> > We have been told too many times that the vamps don't have souls. I
> > think the Judge referred to a pollution of their demon nature by their
> > human personality, which we know is retained by the vampires. This
> > contrasted with Angelus, who's demon nature had completely perverted
> > his human personality into the evil opposite.
>
> Did you see Liam before he was vamped? Hard pressed to say Angelus was his
> "opposite" in any form at all.
>
>
You obviously didn't spot the difference between the drunking whoring
layabout (Liam ) and the homicidal maniac who could probably revil any
dictator you care to name (Angelus). The only sign of violence from Liam was
when he was obviousky drunk- Type of punchup that happens in umpteen bars in
any city centre on a Saturday night. Liam was an idiot who should have
known better but he is the opposite of Angelus in a lot of ways.When Liam
was assaulted by his father he didn't hit even him back. Angelus used
violence at every opportunity. I would like to see a bit more of Angels
human story to see how he ended up such an idiot.
Elaine
Incubus
im-moral: Negative morality, bad morailty. Morality exists but in the
negative
a-moral: absence of any kind of morality. no moral driving force
positive or negative
the concise incubus dictionary :-)
Incubus
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:35:58 +0100, "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com>
> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >
> >excellent aguments BUT the soul has the conscience but consciounce relies
on
it
> >inconceivable that the soul and spirit are the same thing?
> ------------
> It isn't inconceivable, it is probably something that a lot of people
> believe, in these modern times. It just doesn't seem to be the case in
> the Buffyverse, that's all.
hmm. the writers could do with writing a book of law and us really sad geeks
would get it :-)
> ----------------
> >> Vampires are special cases. They have souls, but their souls are
> >> demonic. The original human soul has been evicted and replaced by a
> >> demon. Perhaps a demon spirit comes along for the ride too, but the
> >> original spirit is still there. This is one reason why becoming a
> >> vampire is worse than dieing. The person's spirit stays trapped in the
> >> body, unable to move on. Perhaps eternally.
> >
> >or until staked :-)
> >>
> >> Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
> >> vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
> >> him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
> >> with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
> >> keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
> >>
> >why not simply replace it?
> --------------
> Because the human soul holds the demon spirit, the demon within, in
> check most of the time. It isn't a soul.
there is a huge irony in what youjust said but it is only relevent to myself
and a small circle of friends so i will not go into it :-)
Incubus
> Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in article
> <KIm17.1241$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> > excellent aguments BUT the soul has the conscience but consciounce
relies
> > on guilt which is an emotion and part of the spirit and not the soul.
>
> If you break it down enough, you could argue that any twinge of conscience
> is a twinge of emotion. You *feel* good when you do something good, and
> feel bad when you do something bad.
thats what i just tried to do but you just did a lot better job than myself
:-)
>
> But all that means is that there is a special class of feeling -- moral
> feeling -- that originates within the soul. It's still possible that other
> feelings, personal feelings, still originate within the spirit.
hmm. I don't buy it. It is also possible for the earth to be egg shaped :-)
>
> > > Angel has a continuity of memory, from human, to vampire, to souled
> > > vampire because he is still carrying his original spirit along with
> > > him. And he isn't really just a vampire with a soul. He is a vampire
> > > with a human soul. The human soul sits on top of the vampire soul,
> > > keeping its appetites in check, most of the time.
> > >
> > why not simply replace it?
>
> Because the demon soul is what animates the dead body. Without the demon
> essence, Angel's just a pile of dust, and thus there's nothing for the
> human soul to inhabit.
why is he a pile of dust? why can't the whole essense b removed and replaced
with the human stuff?
Incubus
makes up souls, ghosts, demons and the like and when it is recalled it is
simply rebuilt from the blueprints stored in history
Incubus
yes but they don't get "you"?.
Incubus
Regertz <reg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010706171427...@ng-mj1.aol.com...
> The old vamp canon, ie the original Dracula story, etc, was always that
the
> victim's soul was somewhere around, trapped by the vamp curse into
watching
> what the demon counterpart does with the body...
even evil has a point
Incubus
ANIM8Rfsk
the victim's soul was somewhere around, trapped by the vamp curse into
watching what the demon counterpart does with the body... >>
uh, it was? Can you show me where anything of this nature is said in DRACULA?
The Evil Toad
article <nUH17.5138$WS4.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
[snip]
>
>The Bufster without a soul would be another faith i think :-) if the
>definition of the soul on here fits buffyverse rules
She certainly becomes unhinged and creepier as the episode progresses.
Here's one of my favourite sequences:
BUFFY
You're right. I've been thinking
a lot about it. It's clear to me now.
WILLOW
Good. That's better.
Buffy's eyes narrow coldly. Her tone is even, frighteningly calculating.
BUFFY
Kathy's evil. I'm an evil fighter.
It's simple. I have to kill her.
DannyboymcNY
>From: "Incubus" inc...@hellfire.com
>Date: 7/6/2001 1:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <CQm17.1259$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
>
>its a good way to get immortality though. Get vamped then get some mage or
>witch to give you your soul back.
I disagree. I don't think having a bloodlust, not being able to look in
mirrors, being adversely affected by holy artifacts, and never being able to
see the sun is "good".
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <JAm17.1219$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>>news:AKxFO89zuQn8Gh...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:07:43 +0100, "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>> >or perhaps the consciesness does reside in the soul. I have observed no
>> >arguments as to why not
>> Well, Angel was gifted with a soul, there is no evidence that it was
>> 'his' soul. The demon roommatewanted to steal Buffy's soul, and was by
>> way of being successful in integrating that soul: she wasn't becoming
>> Buffy.
>
>so what did she need the soul for?
Some people speculate that a human soul orients you toward good rather than
evil.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/7/2001 5:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3B46D065...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>
>What happens when a vampire tries to vamp a soulless person?
Mostly the same thing. A vampire demon inhabits the body. It just doesn't
have to expel the soul first.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/6/2001 11:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <=npGO9Ck1KWxzoVaaaR4hrx=DJ...@4ax.com>
>Dru is mad because she is an evil creature that still has regular
>contact with the powers that be.
I thought Dru was mad because she always was, even in life. I don't see how
her psychic powers are any more maddening to someone undead than to someone
living (Doyle and Cordelia).
Lord Usher
> > But all that means is that there is a special class of feeling -- moral
> > feeling -- that originates within the soul. It's still possible that
> > other feelings, personal feelings, still originate within the spirit.
>
> hmm. I don't buy it. It is also possible for the earth to be egg shaped
:-)
No, we've seen the earth. It is *not* egg-shaped. :)
Anyway, I think this is a perfect place to apply Occam's Razor -- "The
simpler explanation is preferable to the more complex." We know that the
vampire gets all parts of the person it possesses except for his soul. We
know that a vampire gets a person's emotions, memories, and desires. The
simplest explanation, the one that does not require us to assume properties
of which we have no evidence, is that the reason it gets these things is
because they do not reside within the soul.
Your explanation requires us to make an assumption for which no textual
support exists -- that the vampires somehow "copies" the emotions and
memories from the human soul before it leaves the body.
> > Because the demon soul is what animates the dead body. Without the
> > demon essence, Angel's just a pile of dust, and thus there's nothing
> > for the human soul to inhabit.
>
> why is he a pile of dust? why can't the whole essense b removed and
replaced
> with the human stuff?
Because the human soul does not have the ability to sustain a dead body. If
it did, people would be incapable of dying. Joyce would've been able to do
exactly what Anya wished she could do in "The Body" -- get right back into
her corpse and keep on living.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/7/2001 2:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <21ced21e.01070...@posting.google.com>
>The Host puts people on their path. He doesn't really seem to care one
>way or the other whether that path is good, evil, or somewhere in
>between.
This is only partially true. Lorne does seem to have an interest in seeing
Angel and the Fang Gang do well. But he doesn't seem to have a problem telling
_anyone_ their destiny, even if it's not beneficial to humanity at large.
Lord Usher
> > Well, because the conscience *is* a big thing. It's what keeps us from
> > indulging our basest urges, and destroying other people's lives to make
> > our own more pleasant, and killing every jerk who pisses us off. It's
> > what motivates us to stand up to injustice, to improve the lives of our
> > fellow man.
> >
> > How much "bigger" does it have to be?
>
> as big as the humanity as a whole
In the Buffyverse, the soul is obviously *not* as big as humanity as a
whole -- because it does not emcompass the body, the mind, or the heart.
It's an essential part of humanity, but it is not the *only* part of
humanity. And I see no problem with that.
Lord Usher
> > The evidence that the soul is not the seat of any of these things is
> > that vampires don't get your soul, but they do get your emotions and
> > memories and intellect
>
> yes but they don't get "you"?.
Yes, in the sense that whatever consciousness is in there, looking out of
your eyes, remembering your memories, feeling your feelings, is not the
same consciousness that was there when you were alive.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/7/2001 8:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <iKN17.7410$B56.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
>why is he a pile of dust? why can't the whole essense b removed and replaced
>with the human stuff?
Because Liam is _dead_. Vampires have the supernatural ability to animate
things that are dead. That's a power lacked by humans.
Incubus
The Evil Toad <evilto...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:219fktoibvn46dhq8...@4ax.com...
hmm. I look forward to that one but then again, how can someone with no
conscience be judjgemental?
>
>
>
>
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010708143504...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
so how do you explain the nazis?
>
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
remove the vampire stuff and force the human soul back in
Incubus
> Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in article
> <iKN17.7410$B56.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> > > But all that means is that there is a special class of feeling --
moral
> > > feeling -- that originates within the soul. It's still possible that
> > > other feelings, personal feelings, still originate within the spirit.
> >
> > hmm. I don't buy it. It is also possible for the earth to be egg shaped
> :-)
>
> No, we've seen the earth. It is *not* egg-shaped. :)
and you were deliberatley being difficult ;-)
>
> Anyway, I think this is a perfect place to apply Occam's Razor -- "The
> simpler explanation is preferable to the more complex." We know that the
> vampire gets all parts of the person it possesses except for his soul. We
> know that a vampire gets a person's emotions, memories, and desires. The
> simplest explanation, the one that does not require us to assume
properties
> of which we have no evidence, is that the reason it gets these things is
> because they do not reside within the soul.
are you inferring that thet will fill in the gaps with assumptions? hardly
scietifically conclusive :-) but then again, little in the buffyverse is :-)
>
> Your explanation requires us to make an assumption for which no textual
> support exists -- that the vampires somehow "copies" the emotions and
> memories from the human soul before it leaves the body.
does it? No my explanation is only a suggestion which you can take or leave
but i wish for you all to at least think about.
do you mean before the soul leaves the bod or the vampire leaves the body?
:-P
>
> > > Because the demon soul is what animates the dead body. Without the
> > > demon essence, Angel's just a pile of dust, and thus there's nothing
> > > for the human soul to inhabit.
> >
> > why is he a pile of dust? why can't the whole essense b removed and
> replaced
> > with the human stuff?
>
> Because the human soul does not have the ability to sustain a dead body.
If
> it did, people would be incapable of dying. Joyce would've been able to do
> exactly what Anya wished she could do in "The Body" -- get right back into
> her corpse and keep on living.
erm I know nothing of Joyce or Anya and i have not seen the body, but in
the buffyverse and in the mythological world, the body supports the soul,
not the otherway round as if it was then when the soul left the body, the
body would fall to peices, but it doesn't. I remember when they buried my
grandparents i saw corpses in their coffins. not pilesof dust
:-)
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> >Subject: Re: Spike has a soul??????
> >From: "Incubus" inc...@hellfire.com
> >Date: 7/6/2001 1:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <CQm17.1259$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
> >
> >its a good way to get immortality though. Get vamped then get some mage
or
> >witch to give you your soul back.
>
> I disagree. I don't think having a bloodlust, not being able to look in
> mirrors,
if you saw my mug then you would realise that this would not be such a bad
thing :-) with the exception of combing my hair which is a bitch without a
mirror. There's a thought. Who does spik's hair?
being adversely affected by holy artifacts, and never being able to
> see the sun is "good".
no but not being adverly affected by bullets, knifes (except decapitation)
broken limbs desease and age is, though i would totally miss the sun
like you missed your question mark :-)
Incubus
I agree. they may behave like you but only you are you. perhaps thats what
the soul is
hmm
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
Incubus
The quotation mark is above the 2 NOT ABOVE THE 8 :-)
hmm i still say the soul is a lot more than the conscience
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
i agree with you Danny. Dru is sweet. has good visions but is definatly MAD
David Cheatham
inc...@hellfire.com says...
She didn't have no conscience, she just had very little of one. But,
anyway, she wasn't judging Kathy on some sort of morality scale of good
and evil, or the simplistic demon souled vs human souled scale, she was
calling Kathy evil simply because Kathy annoyed her. ;)
Now the $64,000 question: Was Kathy annoying because she had a demon soul
and no empathy at all to her roommate, or is Buffy just easy to annoy? ;)
--
-David T. Cheatham, da...@creeknet.com
'What's the plan?' 'The vampire attacks you.' 'And then what?'
'The vampire kills you. We watch, we rejoice.' -Cordy and Xander, BtVS
Incubus
David Cheatham <da...@creeknet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15b3033e7...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
you are being petty. you knew what i meant or did you :-)
>
> Now the $64,000 question: Was Kathy annoying because she had a demon soul
> and no empathy at all to her roommate, or is Buffy just easy to annoy? ;)
well if buffy is easy to annoy then she needs a good spanking to clear her
head :-)
David Cheatham
inc...@hellfire.com says...
I'm not being petty, Buffy wasn't making a moral judgement.
Some Psycho Named Sam
I'll go with option #1 -- Kathy was just bloody annoying.
She played Cher *all* *day* *long*. Forget vampires, that's true evil.
oceanyx
"Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message
news:_d427.13073$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> news:20010708143330...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> > >Subject: Re: Spike has a soul??????
> > >From: "Incubus" inc...@hellfire.com
> > >Date: 7/6/2001 1:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: <CQm17.1259$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
> > >
> > >its a good way to get immortality though. Get vamped then get some mage
> or
> > >witch to give you your soul back.
> >
> > I disagree. I don't think having a bloodlust, not being able to look in
> > mirrors,
>
> if you saw my mug then you would realise that this would not be such a bad
> thing :-) with the exception of combing my hair which is a bitch without a
> mirror. There's a thought. Who does spik's hair?
>
or as Willow noted "Angel...how do you shave?"
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <_d427.13073$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
>
>
>DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
>news:20010708143330...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
>> >Subject: Re: Spike has a soul??????
>> >From: "Incubus" inc...@hellfire.com
>> >Date: 7/6/2001 1:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: <CQm17.1259$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
>> >
>> >its a good way to get immortality though. Get vamped then get some mage
>or
>> >witch to give you your soul back.
>>
>> I disagree. I don't think having a bloodlust, not being able to look in
>> mirrors,
>
>if you saw my mug then you would realise that this would not be such a bad
>thing :-) with the exception of combing my hair which is a bitch without a
>mirror. There's a thought. Who does spik's hair?
You could ask the same of Angel...or any other vampire. Presumably they learn
to do this stuff without a mirror. Blind people can do it, so why not
vampires?
>being adversely affected by holy artifacts, and never being able to
>> see the sun is "good".
>
>no but not being adverly affected by bullets, knifes (except decapitation)
>broken limbs desease and age is, though i would totally miss the sun
>like you missed your question mark :-)
I didn't ask a question. Not even a rhetorical one. No question mark
required.
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <QZ327.13040$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
They went against their natural orientation.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/8/2001 5:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1i427.13091$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
>
>ok then what happens when a vampire tries to vamp a cow?
The cow dies.
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <_9427.13068$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
At which point the human soul would immediately leave since the body is _dead_.
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <QZ327.13039$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
<snipped stuff about Kathy the demon roommate>
>hmm. I look forward to that one but then again, how can someone with no
>conscience be judjgemental?
She can't. She's simply going on what she already knows: demons are evil.
Incubus
you missed my smiley face :-) I knew what you meant
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
hhmmmmm erm er. bloody hell that shut me up :-) (what do you mean about
f<beep> time ;-))
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
From my observations, humans tend to find it easier to be nasty than nice to
people. I personally think the world would be a nicer place if the reverse
was true
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
>
Incubus
oceanyx <oce...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Ns927.319976$p33.6...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
>
> "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message
> news:_d427.13073$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> >
> > DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> > news:20010708143330...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> > > >Subject: Re: Spike has a soul??????
> > > >From: "Incubus" inc...@hellfire.com
> > > >Date: 7/6/2001 1:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > > >Message-id: <CQm17.1259$WS4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
> > > >
> > > >its a good way to get immortality though. Get vamped then get some
mage
> > or
> > > >witch to give you your soul back.
> > >
> > > I disagree. I don't think having a bloodlust, not being able to look
in
> > > mirrors,
> >
> > if you saw my mug then you would realise that this would not be such a
bad
> > thing :-) with the exception of combing my hair which is a bitch without
a
> > mirror. There's a thought. Who does spik's hair?
> >
>
> or as Willow noted "Angel...how do you shave?"
oh yes. Good one; but can vampires cut themselves with razors
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
yes but at first it would take ages and would a vampire say to a victum,
"does my hair look alright" before biting them? its just the kind of thing i
would expect spike would do
>
> >being adversely affected by holy artifacts, and never being able to
> >> see the sun is "good".
> >
> >no but not being adverly affected by bullets, knifes (except
decapitation)
> >broken limbs desease and age is, though i would totally miss the sun
> >like you missed your question mark :-)
>
> I didn't ask a question. Not even a rhetorical one. No question mark
> required.
oh ok. remark retracted
Incubus
DannyboymcNY <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
the vampcow"
Mark Brown
news:3B46D0F0...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> Some Psycho Named Sam wrote:
> > I think it's worth noting that Lorne is pretty darn amoral by our
> > standards, too. In his first appearance, he gives readings like,
> > "There's more to life than eating your young" just as jovially as with
> > the ones he gives Angel. And he had absolutely no problem advising
> > Harmony, or the lawyers from Wolfram and Hart.
> Since Lorne's people do eat their young, its not surprising that he
wouldn't be bothered by Terrestrial
> demons eating their young.
I don't really think Lorne is amoral, I think its more that he tends to be
very nonjudgmental unless he has some personal stake (his home-realm, his
friends, Caritas, etc). Besides, he ~is~ a businessman (presumeably Caritas
belongs to him and he's not paying rent. It doesn't pay to be prejudiced
against your customers.
I like Lorne, he's cool.
Mark
"So he hates his hometown. Big deal; I'm not too fond of where I'm from
either."
Mark Brown
*SNIP*
> yes, I think spike tries to be evil because of the rebel in him but i also
> think there is a lot of good in hiim.
> To say the least he ais likeable. Well I like him anyway. i would never
call
> him lawful though. He has never been one for following rules except the
ones
> enforced upon him by that chip
Actually, I think Spike is very lawful; the trouble is that his personal
code of "ethics" (or laws, if you prefer) doesn't match the ~accepted~ code,
either for good ~or~ evil.
I sometimes run into the same problem myself. It's basically the ~letter~ of
the law versus the ~spirit~ of the law.
Spike is Lawful, but just not the same laws as other vamps/humans/not-evil
Evil Things. Note that he keeps his word, even when it means he gets hurt.
> > Angel/Angelus tends to be chaotic, whether he is good or evil, and the
> > contrast is one reason why Spike and Angel have so little respect for
> > each other, I think, although Dru is also Chaotic, but then, she is a
> > girl, and Spike is susceptible to that sort of thing.
I'd definitely call Angel chaotic; that's why he has so much trouble working
with a team. Of the Fang Gang, I think Darla was the only lawful one, always
trying to make sure everyone followed Angelus the Leader.
> again i agree including the chaotic bit. the vampire Angelus (is he
> italian?)
*SNIP*
Irish (or as Boreanaz mangles it "Oirish")
Mark
"Not so much a brogue as a drunken slur."
Ivytree
> In article <060720011537363863%dsa...@synapse.net>, dsa...@synapse.net
> says...
> > In article <9i52f8$q...@dispatch.concentric.net>, Ivytree
> > <lsan...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> > > news:060720010923210863%dsa...@synapse.net...
> > > > Once again time for my Buffyverse three part entity theory:
> > > >
> > > > Creatures in the Buffyverse seem to be composed of three components.
> > > > Body, spirit, and soul.
> > > >
> > > > - The body is just meat.
> > > >
> > > > - The spirit carries the intelligence, and the memories.
> > > >
> > > > - The soul carries the emotions and other intangibles, such as the
> > > > conscience.
> > > >
> > > > Spirit and soul, combined without body makes a ghost.
> > > >
> > > > Body and spirit without a soul leaves a completely amoral person. A
> > > > sociopath incapable of telling right from wrong, such as what Buffy
was
> > > > becoming in _Living Conditions_.
> > > >
> > > I don't see any reason to believe that Lorne (the Host) is completely
> > > amoral. And what about good guy demon/human hybrids, like Doyle?
> >
> > There are a lot of different demons from a lot of different places.
> > Not all demons are soulless. They just have demonic souls. Some
> > demonic souls, such as the ones vampires have, are evil. Some, such as
> > Lorne's, aren't.
> >
> > Lorne does seem to be a bit of an aberation for his race though. They
> > may not be very evil, but, by and large, they ain't too good either.
>
> Actually, *Lorne* is 'evil', or at least immoral, as he does *not* follow
> the standard moral code for his race. ;)
>
> Of course, no one with music in their heart can actually be evil. ;)
>
> --
> -David T. Cheatham, da...@creeknet.com
>
> 'What's the plan?' 'The vampire attacks you.' 'And then what?'
> 'The vampire kills you. We watch, we rejoice.' -Cordy and Xander, BtVS
I don't think morality in the Buffy/Angelverse can be totally relative.
After all, vampires follow the standard moral code for their race, too. It
just involves killing humans, which humans think is pretty darn evil!
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <DEe27.15027$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
It seems like lots of vampires tend to work together. Maybe they do each
other's hair. Spike, of course, is old enough to have learned to do his own.
And most vampires don't seem terribly interested in whether their hair and
makeup looks fine.
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <EEe27.15028$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
I think something like this was done in Marvel Comics.
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <Rwe27.14996$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
I'm not so sure about that. I've heard that many were coerced into it. (Not
that it's even remotely an excuse - just to say that it wasn't their natural
inclination to do what they did.)
DannyboymcNY
>Message-id: <JAe27.15014$B56.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
Then you'd have a rotting corpse with a soul in it. I'm sure the person would
be thrilled.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 7/9/2001 12:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <dpl27.16299$oF4.37...@news1.tor.primus.ca>
>
>"Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message
>news:mUH17.5137$WS4.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>> again i agree including the chaotic bit. the vampire Angelus (is he
>> italian?)
>*SNIP*
>
>Irish (or as Boreanaz mangles it "Oirish")
It might help if you mentioned that Angel's name when he was human was Liam.
Andrew J. Brehm
> > >> Some people speculate that a human soul orients you toward good
> > >> rather than evil.
> > >
> > >so how do you explain the nazis?
> >
> > They went against their natural orientation.
>
> Hardly. They seemed to find it quite natural to to what they did
>
> From my observations, humans tend to find it easier to be nasty than nice to
> people. I personally think the world would be a nicer place if the reverse
> was true
There is a theory that devides human thinking into "human nature" and
"free will". "human nature" is the collection of instincts, "free will"
is the soul and man's ability to act against his instincts.
A vampire without a soul acts according to his (demon) instincts ("kill
people", "destroy the world" etc.), a vampire with a soul (Angel) can
act against his instincts (and will probably be good because with a soul
and free will comes the ability to understand how others feel).
Spike, without a soul, would then act according to his instincts, and I
think his "kill people" and sex (attraction to Drusilla) instincts are
simply more powerful than his "destroy the world" instinct. So, in a
way, Spike is a "broken" vampire.
Angelus (Angel sans soul) on the other hand is a vampire that is
completely loyal to the vampire cause ("destroy the world, open hell,
let the old ones return").
The Nazis were people who valued human nature higher than free will and
thus acted accordingly. Yes, that would be evil. Just like killing young
men and raping young women would be, but it would be in man's nature to
do so (in fact, animals do that sort of thing).
A vampire is a human being infected by a demon soul (which is _not_ the
same as a human soul and does not come with free will) and a certain
demonic nature (see above). The original soul is lost during the
mutation and lurks around uncapacitated until called back by a certain
curse to punish the vampire.
Angels don't have a soul and have a good nature. Human beings have a
soul and have an animalistic nature. Demons have no soul and have a bad
nature.
The standard of good and evil is of course the human soul and free will.
Without free will there would be no good or bad, because all entities,
demons, angels, mankind, animals, would simply act according to their
nature and couldn't change that. Thus the question of good or bad
becomes meaningless.
References: "libertarianism", "existentialism", "vampires", "angel",
"seraph", "cherub", "demon", "soul", "free will"
I would provide the links but britannica.com seems to be down.
P.S.: Oh, and "hi". I have been lurking for a while, but I think I will
post every now and then from now on.
--
Fan of Woody Allen
PowerPC User
Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza