AOQ Review 5-4: "Out Of My Mind"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
(or "Not this crap again...")
Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
Director: David Grossman
Ah, to think I believed that we were done with stories about Riley
being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
bother to show up?" (Spike falling into the grave, on the other
hand, is too obvious; he has a terminal case of bwahaha interruptus,
and that running joke's getting a little old.) Another good scene is
the reveal of the magic shop, leading into Buffy's joy over the new
training room and "Q from Bond, not _Star Trek_." And then
there's also that intriguing little moment when Joyce asks Dawn
"who are you?" and collapses. Huh. Although I'm sick of Joyce
getting knocked out and ending up a little embarrassed more than
anything, at least they're coming up with new circumstances for it.
Besides being kinda interesting, this sets up a nice change in
direction - the way things were going, I thought Dawn was going to
try the stethoscope on herself and find that she didn't have a
heartbeat or something. Instead, we turn to focus on Soldier-Boy and
his post-drug tachycardia.
Riley-focused episodes tend to breed dullness, although not always.
This one does. No matter how competently it's done (it's okay, I
guess), the ideas didn't engage me at all, from the beginning. OOMM
is a failure of premise as much as of execution. The weakness is most
prominent during the scenes between him and his Slayer. It also raises
the question of why he's behaving the way he is, given what he thinks
he figured out about Buffy in the previous episode. Is he trying to
fight and fuck his way into her heart or something? His hangup over
getting left behind in terms of physical prowess seems kinda strange
too, given that he's been so easygoing about the inequality in the
past, and given that, well, like Buffy says, doesn't he know her
better than that? (What she wanted was an ordinary guy...) I guess I
can see how he'd go there after the jealousy from the Dracula
incident, maybe. Thinking about the motivations here mainly fill me
with the desire to think about something else. On a separate
criticism, I wasn't very fond of the part in the caves as a whole. A
distinction I sometimes make is between scenes that feel like
conversations, and those that just feel like semi-connected monologues
in which the lines could be rearranged in random order. This falls
into the latter category. Buffy's getting a little misty-eyed and
I'm checking my watch - usually a sign that your scene isn't
working for me.
Oh yeah, and Blucas seems flat throughout the episode. Or maybe it's
just that he can't save the material he's given. Well, I did like
him punching out Graham once the situation took shape. Otherwise?
Bored now. Very bored.
Huge amounts of Harmony this week, and we've already gone over how I
feel like a little of her goes a long way. It makes sense to pair her
with Spoik again, given how well that dynamic has worked in the past.
There are some amusing moments, particularly Spike's restrained
reaction to hearing that Buffy is Harmony's arch-nemesis. Are we
really supposed to believe that she couldn't hear anything from
inside that coffin, though? So I was able to take the stuff as the
silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
the writers think. I do think it was a mistake to make said ruse so
obvious, though, since that lets us know exactly how the fight at the
end is going to play out, adding to the why-are-we-here vibe.
I like the idea of Xander's "I had this friend once, who really
liked this girl, and ... he got all worried that maybe she didn't like
him back... and maybe that made him act like a total jerk," but it
doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with the conversation
it's in. I unambiguously like "well, here's a hot tip, if you want
attention? *Be* there so people can give it to you."
Is this our first time back to UC[sun]D this season? The first few
episodes seemed to take place towards the end of vacation, and between
the magic shop and Joyce's episode, this episode is almost all in
Olde Sunnydale too.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Two that come close together: "I feel like a witch in a magic
shop" and the discussion of amphibian eyes.
- "She won't give up until she's killed me to death!"
- The Twenty Questions game, both for context and content
- Buffy giving Spike half of his money
I'd kinda hoped they'd kill off Riley here (what can I say, I'm
tired of him. Still), but showing some damage or impact after all the
"already too late" suspense stuff is really all I ask. Instead,
he's anticlimactically just fine. Graham, seemingly picking up an
intermittent accent, tries to convince our ex-agent that his place is
with him (insert gay joke here). That at least makes sense as an angle
to play up - what's Riley doing for himself? Last year he found
something to hold on to, now he needs to know who he is without
reference to Buffy. So, fine structurally, I just don't actually
care. Are we finally done here? Well...
I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. I suppose it
says something about either the low quality of the episode or my high
gullibility that I really believed that the writers were going to go
through with the thoroughly stupid idea of having the two burst into
passion for each other. (Actually, I'm going to blame The Scene That
Should Not Be [that'd be the closet scene in "What's My Line
II," for those just tuning in] for setting a precedent of
legitimizing the love/hate bullshit in the Buffyverse.) But no, even
in its weaker moments, BTVS proves to be too good for that. Instead we
end up with Spike waking up and saying "oh god, no," when he
realizes what this might mean about his Slayer obsession. There's
still potential for awfulness there, make no mistake, but given proper
handling, this thread still has a chance to end up worthwhile.
So...
One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
uninteresting.
AOQ rating: Weak
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak]
burt...@hotmail.com
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
> (or "Not this crap again...")
> Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
>
> Ah, to think I believed that we were done with stories about Riley
> being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
> Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
> of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
>
> Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
> staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
> bother to show up?"
Ah, this may be the episode I was thinking of earlier when I mentioned
Buffy staking vampires before they were even out of the ground.
Although it may have happened before this - I can't remember.
Regardless, this disproves the rather silly notion that Buffy never
kills vampires who can't fight back.
This episode was just plain bad. The Buffy/Riley confrontation scene
actually had me missing the days of over-the-top Buffy/Angel dialogue,
if you can believe it. I thought nothing could possibly match "Amends"
for melodrama, but it turned out I was wrong.
And Spike endangers the life of someone Buffy cares about - again - and
gets let off scot free - again. Time to start up a drinking game?
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
> uninteresting.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Welcome to Dullsville! You'll be stayin' a while. Enjoy the lil'
bright spots when they come, 'cause we sure gots some Dull 'round here,
and you ain't seen nothin' yet.
-- Ol' coot
Don Sample
"Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote:
I'd disagree with that. Every season has a few dud episodes, and this
was one of season 5's, but there are also some gems to look forward to.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
alphakitten
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
>>(or "Not this crap again...")
>>Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
>>Director: David Grossman
>>
>>Ah, to think I believed that we were done with stories about Riley
>>being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
>>Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
>>of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
>>
>>Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
>>staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
>>bother to show up?"
>
>
> Ah, this may be the episode I was thinking of earlier when I mentioned
> Buffy staking vampires before they were even out of the ground.
> Although it may have happened before this - I can't remember.
> Regardless, this disproves the rather silly notion that Buffy never
> kills vampires who can't fight back.
>
Er, of course they can fight back, she just doesn't give them a chance to.
~Angel
alphakitten
> In article <1149744624.7...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> "Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>>One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
>>>uninteresting.
>>>
>>>AOQ rating: Weak
>>
>>
>>Welcome to Dullsville! You'll be stayin' a while. Enjoy the lil'
>>bright spots when they come, 'cause we sure gots some Dull 'round here,
>>and you ain't seen nothin' yet.
>>
>>-- Ol' coot
>
>
> I'd disagree with that. Every season has a few dud episodes, and this
> was one of season 5's, but there are also some gems to look forward to.
>
I'll disagree too. There are only a couple of dud eps this season, S5 is
gem heavy.
I'd rate OOMM decent. The Riley stuff is (as usual) mostly lame, but the
Spike/Harmony scenes more than make up for it.
~Angel
Paul Hyett
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
>(or "Not this crap again...")
>Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
>Director: David Grossman
>
>Ah, to think I believed that we were done with stories about Riley
>being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
>Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
>of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
>
>Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
>staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
>bother to show up?" (Spike falling into the grave, on the other
>hand, is too obvious; he has a terminal case of bwahaha interruptus,
>and that running joke's getting a little old.)
But for me, never tired.
> Another good scene is
>the reveal of the magic shop, leading into Buffy's joy over the new
>training room and "Q from Bond, not _Star Trek_." And then
>there's also that intriguing little moment when Joyce asks Dawn
>"who are you?" and collapses. Huh. Although I'm sick of Joyce
>getting knocked out
But 'getting knocked out' is surely more Giles's thing. :)
> and ending up a little embarrassed more than
>anything, at least they're coming up with new circumstances for it.
>Besides being kinda interesting, this sets up a nice change in
>direction - the way things were going, I thought Dawn was going to
>try the stethoscope on herself and find that she didn't have a
>heartbeat or something. Instead, we turn to focus on Soldier-Boy and
>his post-drug tachycardia.
I had no idea where that was going.
>
>Riley-focused episodes tend to breed dullness, although not always.
>This one does. No matter how competently it's done (it's okay, I
>guess), the ideas didn't engage me at all, from the beginning.
I'd call this mainly a Spike-focussed episode.
>
>Huge amounts of Harmony this week, and we've already gone over how I
>feel like a little of her goes a long way. It makes sense to pair her
>with Spoik again, given how well that dynamic has worked in the past.
>There are some amusing moments, particularly Spike's restrained
>reaction to hearing that Buffy is Harmony's arch-nemesis. Are we
>really supposed to believe that she couldn't hear anything from
>inside that coffin, though?
Whereas in realty Buffy barely considers her worth staking.
> So I was able to take the stuff as the
>silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
>although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
>and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
>fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
>the writers think.
The doctor had to distract them somehow though, and the above seemed as
good as anything else - after all, it worked.
>
>I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. I suppose it
>says something about either the low quality of the episode or my high
>gullibility that I really believed that the writers were going to go
>through with the thoroughly stupid idea of having the two burst into
>passion for each other.
I think there were very few people who weren't fooled by that.
>
>One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
>uninteresting.
>
>AOQ rating: Weak
Really? It was one of my favourite S5 episodes!
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >hand, is too obvious; he has a terminal case of bwahaha interruptus,
> >and that running joke's getting a little old.)
>
> But for me, never tired.
the joke isnt that wiley coyote fails
the joke is how wiley coyote fails
> >although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
> >and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
> >fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
> >the writers think.
>
> The doctor had to distract them somehow though, and the above seemed as
> good as anything else - after all, it worked.
its a harmony character moment
shes all im so bad im so bad and ignores the doctor
but just point to a no smoking sign and she cant move fast enough to obey
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
burt...@hotmail.com
A vampire that's still mostly embedded in the ground can't fight back.
alphakitten
Until it gets out, of course.
~Angel
Elisi
> being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies.
> I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. I suppose it
> says something about either the low quality of the episode or my high
> gullibility that I really believed that the writers were going to go
> through with the thoroughly stupid idea of having the two burst into
> passion for each other. (Actually, I'm going to blame The Scene That
> Should Not Be [that'd be the closet scene in "What's My Line
> II," for those just tuning in] for setting a precedent of
> legitimizing the love/hate bullshit in the Buffyverse.) But no, even
> in its weaker moments, BTVS proves to be too good for that. Instead we
> end up with Spike waking up and saying "oh god, no," when he
> realizes what this might mean about his Slayer obsession. There's
> still potential for awfulness there, make no mistake, but given proper
> handling, this thread still has a chance to end up worthwhile.
See this - to me - is a brilliant Spike episode, with lots of dull
Riley moments! Heh. (And this line always makes me laugh - it's all in
the delivery):
SPIKE: Oh, dear, is the enormous hall monitor sick? Tell me, is he
gonna die?
And this line is just *ouch*:
BUFFY: (firmly) You are *not* going to die.
RILEY: Bet you say that to all the boys.
Now about the 'OMG why does Buffy not kill Spike?' then the characters
do have this conversation after Spike's 'operation':
SPIKE: Buffy. I swear I was just thinking of you. I wanted to tell you
the great news. My head's all clear now. No more bug-zapper in my
noggin.
BUFFY: That means I get to kill you.
She's obviously made a decision that she won't dust him while he's
chipped - which might be stupid, but that's her way. Most people
wouldn't be happy with a leashed serial killer in their back yard, but
she's obviously not bothered.
And while we're on the subject - I love that last scene! Whatever will
our friendly little neighbour vampire do now?
On a slightly different subject:
Gur tenirfgbar gung Fcvxr cvpxf hc naq oernxf fnlf 'Znzn 1881' ba vg.
Naq V svaq gung irel vagrerfgvat...
Don Sample
Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer on Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote :
> >
> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
> >(or "Not this crap again...")
> >Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
> >Director: David Grossman
> >
> >And then
> >there's also that intriguing little moment when Joyce asks Dawn
> >"who are you?" and collapses. Huh. Although I'm sick of Joyce
> >getting knocked out
>
> But 'getting knocked out' is surely more Giles's thing. :)
And how often has it happened to Joyce? I can only recall her being
unconscious once before this, from when Darla attacked her in "Angel."
Faith punched her, but I don't think that she got knocked out that time,
nor the time that she got kidnapped by Kralik.
> > So I was able to take the stuff as the
> >silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
> >although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
> >and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
> >fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
> >the writers think.
>
> The doctor had to distract them somehow though, and the above seemed as
> good as anything else - after all, it worked.
And it was only Harmony that he had to distract, which wasn't so hard.
Spike wasn't in a position to see what he was doing.
Apteryx
news:1149738391....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
> bother to show up?" (Spike falling into the grave, on the other
> hand, is too obvious; he has a terminal case of bwahaha interruptus,
> and that running joke's getting a little old.)
Well, there are that many fresh running gags. In this case the interruptus
was pretty weak, which is a shame, because the bwahaha was one of the best.
>
> Riley-focused episodes tend to breed dullness, although not always.
> This one does.
This is a Riley focused episode? What about the other boy who isn't entirely
welcome?
>
> Huge amounts of Harmony this week, and we've already gone over how I
> feel like a little of her goes a long way. It makes sense to pair her
> with Spoik again, given how well that dynamic has worked in the past.
> There are some amusing moments, particularly Spike's restrained
> reaction to hearing that Buffy is Harmony's arch-nemesis.
Harmony on the lam is pretty cute, for a would-be Big Bad.
> So I was able to take the stuff as the
> silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
> although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
> and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
> fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
> the writers think.
Yeah they are - well the no-smoking sign anway.
> I do think it was a mistake to make said ruse so
> obvious, though, since that lets us know exactly how the fight at the
> end is going to play out, adding to the why-are-we-here vibe.
Its not for the fights. Its hardly ever for the fights.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Two that come close together: "I feel like a witch in a magic
> shop" and the discussion of amphibian eyes.
> - "She won't give up until she's killed me to death!"
> - The Twenty Questions game, both for context and content
What else would Harmony think of for 20 Questions? :)
> I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. I suppose it
> says something about either the low quality of the episode or my high
> gullibility that I really believed that the writers were going to go
> through with the thoroughly stupid idea of having the two burst into
> passion for each other.
I had wondered whether whatching Angel contemporanesously (which I didn't do
on first viewing) might give the viewer a better chance of spotting that it
was a dream (dreams being the thing of the moment on AtS at the moment).
>
> One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
> uninteresting.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Well, if you thought it was about Riley, no wonder. Notice how the dream at
the end was the other bookend to the teaser, where Spike was blatantly
competing with Riley to show off in front of Buffy. But still, its not
great. It needs more Anya. I'd call it Decent, but pretty close to Good. For
me, its the 82nd best BtVS episode, 9th best in season 5
--
Apteryx
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
>(or "Not this crap again...")
>Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
>Director: David Grossman
>
<SNIP>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
>uninteresting.
>
>AOQ rating: Weak
>
>[Season Five so far:
>1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
>2) "Real Me" - Decent
>3) "The Replacement" - Good
>4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak]
Maybe more later, but I liked this one a lot. Not quite an Excellent
for me, but pretty close.
I liked that we were reminded that Spike is evil. I also found
conflicted evil "love struck" vampire Spike highly humorous.
Since I was not a Riley hater, I wasn't bothered with a focus on him
or his unrequited love for Buffy. You do see how she has many
opportunities and never says the magic words back at him? Even if she
doesn't mean it down deep?
BTW, in WML, that was the Summers cellar stairs, NOT a closet.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
PS: I also liked the Dawn clue moment. Did not care for Ben (always
thought the actor came across as too gay), and liked Buffy's new
wardrobe.
Ken (Brooklyn)
jil...@hotmail.com
You were complaining that Riley dug that chip-thing out of his
heart-area without any blindingly obvious consequences. So they follow
it up with an episode about the other consequences of what was done to
him by Professor Walsh, and you still complain.
Outside of that, on Spike and Buffy. Yet again we have a battle
between the pair that ends inconclusively. ("Inconclusively?" I hear
you say, "he got beat again!") Haha. No. No battle (at least up to
the episodes AOQ has seen) between Spike and Buffy ever ended with her
beating him without help, so to speak. Each time there was
interference that prevented an absolute answer. First time they
fought, her mother brained Spike with an axe which threw him off his
stride. Xander interrupted the battle when Spike had the Ring, again
throwing Spike off-stride. The battle with Buffy while Dru was getting
re-charged, interrupted by his need to save Drucilla. Yes, she almost
killed him when he was drunk off his arse and didn't know she'd come up
behind him, but there wasn't even a fight that time.
Now, this does NOT mean I think Spike would win. After all, since the
battles were interrupted we don't know how or if Buffy would have
gotten out of it. However, to me it seems as though Buffy has no
reason to KNOW she would win against Spike.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
> (or "Not this crap again...")
> Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
It's not all crap!
>
> Ah, to think I believed that we were done with stories about Riley
> being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
> Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
> of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
I think that is one of my beefs with the character that is Riley.
Somehow, someway he should have left at the end of S4. His storyline
does drag S5 down a bit but his character is being used for a valid
reason. He's showing us why Buffy had and will always have such a hard
time dating someone 'normal'. No matter what Buffy does or says to try
and get him to think differently, he's always going to feel inadequate,
and this episode solidifies that.
>
> Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
> staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
> bother to show up?"
Great scene. My personal favorite was when Spike told Riley he had some
knitting needles he could borrow. Funny stuff.
(Spike falling into the grave, on the other
> hand, is too obvious; he has a terminal case of bwahaha interruptus,
> and that running joke's getting a little old.)
I gotta disagree w/ that. I watched this last night and that bit still
makes me laugh. I think it's the off screen "ow!" that gets me.
Another good scene is
> the reveal of the magic shop, leading into Buffy's joy over the new
> training room and "Q from Bond, not _Star Trek_." And then
> there's also that intriguing little moment when Joyce asks Dawn
> "who are you?" and collapses. Huh. Although I'm sick of Joyce
> getting knocked out and ending up a little embarrassed more than
> anything, at least they're coming up with new circumstances for it.
I really don't remember Joyce getting knocked out more than maybe once
before? Someone mentioned this already but I don't think it's overdone.
Also, passing out due to illness and getting knocked out aren't exactly
the same thing anyway.
<snip>
>
> Riley-focused episodes tend to breed dullness, although not always.
> This one does. No matter how competently it's done (it's okay, I
> guess), the ideas didn't engage me at all, from the beginning. OOMM
> is a failure of premise as much as of execution. The weakness is most
> prominent during the scenes between him and his Slayer. It also raises
> the question of why he's behaving the way he is, given what he thinks
> he figured out about Buffy in the previous episode. Is he trying to
> fight and fuck his way into her heart or something?
He knows (or at least fears) that Buffy doesn't love him, just because
he understands that, doesn't mean that he wants to keep it that way. Of
course he wants her to love him back and he's taking his most logical
approach in the matter. Buffy is a fighter, so he has to be a fighter
too. Buffy has superpowers, so he has to keep his super strength too.
He wants to stay on her level so badly that he's willing to risk his
life to do so.
His hangup over
> getting left behind in terms of physical prowess seems kinda strange
> too, given that he's been so easygoing about the inequality in the
> past, and given that, well, like Buffy says, doesn't he know her
> better than that? (What she wanted was an ordinary guy...)
Sure she says she wants an ordinary guy. Of course she does. However,
have you paid attention to her actions? Or last season's conversation
w/ Willow in the graveyard? What she wants and what she needs are two
completely different things. Riley senses that.
I guess I
> can see how he'd go there after the jealousy from the Dracula
> incident, maybe. Thinking about the motivations here mainly fill me
> with the desire to think about something else. On a separate
> criticism, I wasn't very fond of the part in the caves as a whole. A
> distinction I sometimes make is between scenes that feel like
> conversations, and those that just feel like semi-connected monologues
> in which the lines could be rearranged in random order. This falls
> into the latter category. Buffy's getting a little misty-eyed and
> I'm checking my watch - usually a sign that your scene isn't
> working for me.
I found this scene a tad bit lacking in the delivery dept. myself.
However, in all of this... Buffy never says those 3 magic words that
really WOULD give him the peace of mind about her that he needs. She
doesn't say it because she doesn't truly feel it. That's not completely
Buffy's fault because I think she wants to, and she does show that
here. Riley reluctantly agrees to have the surgery, but it's not for
Buffy... Did you notice his reaction to her when she pulled her hand
out of his as he was still sitting on the operating table? He was right
all along.
<snip>
>
> Huge amounts of Harmony this week, and we've already gone over how I
> feel like a little of her goes a long way. It makes sense to pair her
> with Spoik again, given how well that dynamic has worked in the past.
> There are some amusing moments, particularly Spike's restrained
> reaction to hearing that Buffy is Harmony's arch-nemesis. Are we
> really supposed to believe that she couldn't hear anything from
> inside that coffin, though? So I was able to take the stuff as the
> silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
> although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
> and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
> fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
> the writers think.
How would Spike be able to tell what the doc was doing? He was sort of
occupied w/ having his brain cut open and all. His only fault was
relying on Harmony to be his eyes. The no smoking sign and the bow are
just typical Harmony. I didn't get bored w/ the gags at all because
they are so in character for her.
I do think it was a mistake to make said ruse so
> obvious, though, since that lets us know exactly how the fight at the
> end is going to play out, adding to the why-are-we-here vibe.
I wasn't quite sure if the Doc did it or not. I have to think that when
I first saw this episode, I thought he did remove the chip (but I tend
to fall for all that stuff the first time, and the second, and the
third... I'm so darn gullible). When he pulled back from attacking
Buffy in pain, I figured she was either going to stake him or seriously
kick his ass, but then Riley collapsed and Spike was saved once again.
>
> I like the idea of Xander's "I had this friend once, who really
> liked this girl, and ... he got all worried that maybe she didn't like
> him back... and maybe that made him act like a total jerk," but it
> doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with the conversation
> it's in. I unambiguously like "well, here's a hot tip, if you want
> attention? *Be* there so people can give it to you."
Xander really tries to help but then Anya of course thought he was
talking about her and the whole point was lost, or um... was never
really there to begin with.
>
<snip>
>
> I'd kinda hoped they'd kill off Riley here (what can I say, I'm
> tired of him. Still), but showing some damage or impact after all the
> "already too late" suspense stuff is really all I ask. Instead,
> he's anticlimactically just fine.
I wouldn't exactly call him 'just fine'. The physical time-bomb has
been diffused here, but what about the mental one?
<snip>
>
> I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. I suppose it
> says something about either the low quality of the episode or my high
> gullibility that I really believed that the writers were going to go
> through with the thoroughly stupid idea of having the two burst into
> passion for each other. (Actually, I'm going to blame The Scene That
> Should Not Be [that'd be the closet scene in "What's My Line
> II," for those just tuning in] for setting a precedent of
> legitimizing the love/hate bullshit in the Buffyverse.) But no, even
> in its weaker moments, BTVS proves to be too good for that. Instead we
> end up with Spike waking up and saying "oh god, no," when he
> realizes what this might mean about his Slayer obsession. There's
> still potential for awfulness there, make no mistake, but given proper
> handling, this thread still has a chance to end up worthwhile.
The rollercoaster is pulling out of the station... hang on.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
> uninteresting.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
I give it a "Decent+" simply for all the darn wonderful Spike/Harmony
moments. Plus, the Riley ones weren't completely terrible. There was a
point to it all, honest.
burt...@hotmail.com
Once it gets out, it can fight back. While it's still stuck in the
ground, it can't. And here we see Buffy staking vampires still stuck in
the ground.
One Bit Shy
news:1149738391....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
> (or "Not this crap again...")
Oh, no. Grumpy Grampa took over AOQ's computer again. Grab the kids. Take
cover. Toss him Riley's enlarged heart to feed upon!
> Ah, to think I believed that we were done with stories about Riley
> being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
> Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
> of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
the way out.
> Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
> staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
> bother to show up?"
An excellent teaser all around. My favorite part is right at the start with
Buffy crouching on the crypt roof like a feral cat on the hunt. Evidently
her training and research regimen with Giles hasn't eased her ferocious need
for the kill that we saw in the season opener.
> (Spike falling into the grave, on the other
> hand, is too obvious; he has a terminal case of bwahaha interruptus,
> and that running joke's getting a little old.)
Ok. Good spot for a little Spike interlude. Besides he and Riley showing
off in front of Buffy like competing peacocks - something that acquires
additional resonance with the episode ending - there are a couple moments
for Spike here worth looking at.
BUFFY: Spike ... I just saw you taste your own nose blood, you know what?
I'm too grossed out to hear anything you have to say. Go home.
SPIKE: It's blood! It's what I do!
I've mentioned a couple times how Spike's story loosely parallels Anya's.
(And, again, emphasis on loosely. Obviously they're different - if for no
reason than Anya is human and Spike is merely neutered.) This is an example
of one of its manifestations. As Spike spends an innordinate (for a
vampire) amount of time associating with humans, he keeps getting pulled up
short by human stuff that he just doesn't get 'cause it's contrary to his
vampire nature.
We've seen Spike complain to the Scoobies a couple times now that they keep
forgetting he's a vampire. Which is true, and itself an interesting
influence. Even though they intellectually know he's a vampire, their
personal connection to Spike - just conversing with him like they do makes
Spike unique - makes it nigh on impossible for them not to treat him like a
human. A very troublesome human, yes. But since they're humans - not
demons - that's the only way they know how to interract. Which then leads
to stuff like Willow saying it would be ookie to kill Spike because they
know him. Which only adds to the pressure on Spike's vampire identity.
It's no longer just the chip holding it at bay. Now he's got a bunch of
people treating him like he's some kind of god damned human! It's been
driving him batty for a while. A good part of what's feeding his growing
obsession.
It's also key to this little exchange. Look at what Buffy said. As a
scolding, it really only makes sense aimed at a human. To Spike's ears it's
Buffy telling him to shape up and act human. In the past, Spike's
protestations of being a vampire were defiant assertions of his primal
nature. This time, however, he seems hurt by Buffy's remark - even a little
ashamed. "It's what I do," carrying with it an implied wail of, "I can't
help it." Going back to the Anya comparison, Buffy is sort of taking on
Xander's role, instructing Spike on what it means to be human. Unwittingly.
Devoid of tenderness. With considerably less chance of success. But
instruction, none the less.
Spike, however, clearly isn't ready to embrace any imagined soul yet, and
quickly transfers his hurt to anger, and we move to his bwahaha moment.
SPIKE: I will know your blood, Slayer. I will make your neck my chalice ...
and drink deep.
Personally, I love it when Spike brings out his inner bad poet and gets all
florid about the bottomless depths of his evil. A part of his wonderful
style. The braggart with a thesaurus.
But style aside, here we see another manifestation of his growing obsession.
This is how he has repeatedly coped with his infirmity and the parade of
putdowns by Buffy and company. He just keeps nursing the wound, hanging
onto it like a lifeline to his inner demon. He really means what he says
when he does this. (Or thinks he does.) This dream of glorious revenge has
become his great motivater - the thing that keeps him going. So he feeds it
and feeds it and feeds it until....
Ooops. Obsessions are funny things arent't they? They take on their own
life. Hate something enough so that you can't help loving it. What sublime
punishment. The show's ending has a number of implications and unaswered
questions, but don't lose track of this one. The obsession that has kept
him going, kept him in touch with his vampire nature, has now turned against
him. Before wondering what this will say about how he feels towards Buffy,
think a little about how it impacts how feels about himself.
And then the interruptus.
Falling into the open grave is one of a relatively small number of recurring
BtVS images - sometimes as humor. Sometimes not. I guess it's inevitable
with all the time spent in cemetaries. I find it easy to laugh at myself.
Simple slapstick without getting all Keystone Kops about it. To each their
own. It's more generally Spike the fool that I want to touch upon for a
moment.
For a seemingly bright and devious fellow, Spike sure does screw up a lot.
Invariably in a comical oafish way it would seem. What's going on? Is he
really that much of an oaf? Is it insanely bad luck? Or is it that the
strangeness of his circumstances - the chip, the obsession, too much time
with humans - is constantly throwing him into situations he's not really
equiped to handle? I think there's a lot of truth to the latter, but not
enough to fully explain it. Myself, I like to think of it as another
Sunnydale effect. It's neither luck nor nature. It's fate.
Whatever the cause, consider the effect. Yes, it entertains the audience.
But there's an in-story effect too. It disarms his would be foes. Buffy
and company have come to think of Spike as a joke. A very annoying one
sometimes that will piss them off. But even when he does something
genuinely bad, there he is screwing it up too. It's very hard for Buffy to
treat him seriously. At his very worst, he still doesn't end up hurting her
or the Scoobies. The vast majority of the time he's just plain laughable to
them. (Something to keep in mind when wondering why they don't kill him.)
Spike is accutely aware of this. How can he not be since they expend great
effort laughing at him? Another element feeding his obsession. But it also
attacks his self image. How hard must it be for Spike to keep on taking
himself seriously when nobody else does - and for reasons that must look
pretty damned good to him too?
> Another good scene is
> the reveal of the magic shop, leading into Buffy's joy over the new
> training room and "Q from Bond, not _Star Trek_." And then
> there's also that intriguing little moment when Joyce asks Dawn
> "who are you?" and collapses. Huh. Although I'm sick of Joyce
> getting knocked out and ending up a little embarrassed more than
> anything, at least they're coming up with new circumstances for it.
> Besides being kinda interesting, this sets up a nice change in
> direction - the way things were going, I thought Dawn was going to
> try the stethoscope on herself and find that she didn't have a
> heartbeat or something. Instead, we turn to focus on Soldier-Boy and
> his post-drug tachycardia.
There's a lot that entertains me in this episode, but what I really admire
about it is its construction. It keeps taking one path to plop you
unexpectedly upon another. All remarkebly natural. The show gets you going
with an oh, my god, what's wrong with Joyce moment. (Mixed in with this
episode's reminder that Dawn doesn't belong here. An especially potent
reminder coming from Mom.) Which gets everyone to the hospital where we
find it's actually Riley that's the sick one, and suddenly it's Riley's
episode. So we go through fits to get Riley to the Initiative doctor, only
to find that Spike beat everyone to him for damned good reason and that this
really is Spike's episode. After a brief interlude to remind us that Joyce
and Riley really do matter, we get a final Spike/Buffy scene that takes us
through three versions of reality all by itself.
What you call dull has left me gasping. An awful lot happens in this
episode.
> Riley-focused episodes tend to breed dullness, although not always.
> This one does. No matter how competently it's done (it's okay, I
> guess), the ideas didn't engage me at all, from the beginning. OOMM
> is a failure of premise as much as of execution. The weakness is most
> prominent during the scenes between him and his Slayer. It also raises
> the question of why he's behaving the way he is, given what he thinks
> he figured out about Buffy in the previous episode. Is he trying to
> fight and fuck his way into her heart or something? His hangup over
> getting left behind in terms of physical prowess seems kinda strange
> too, given that he's been so easygoing about the inequality in the
> past, and given that, well, like Buffy says, doesn't he know her
> better than that?
Not really. No. What he figured out last episode was that she doesn't love
him - at least not in the sense he's looking for. He doesn't understand
why. He only thinks he does.
Back in the Yoko Factor you noticed that Buffy hadn't told Riley about sex
with Angel. I pointed out then that she also didn't tell him about killing
Angel. Looking again at Riley's quick summary of what Buffy told him, I
don't think she told him about knifing Faith either, or sacraficing her
blood so that Angel could live.
Riley only knows about the sex part of all that. And he's heard in many
ways how deep their passion was. A passion he's not getting from Buffy. He
doesn't understand that to Buffy, passion was the path to literal Hell for
both of them. The most awful set of experiences that Buffy knows or can
imagine. He doesn't understand that Buffy is still running from that
passion - not from Riley.
All Riley understands is that he's not getting the passion that he knows
Angel got. So the only handle he has on it is to wonder what makes Angel
different from him.
I would submit that it's Buffy that's short on the understanding side here.
She desperately needs to tell Riley why it's so hard for her to give him
what he's after. He's a good guy - and a psych student to boot. He's
probably the best chance around to understand what she's going through and
adapting to it. Just knowing that it's really not his inadequacies would be
a blessing to him. But he's stuck with the wrong idea. He thinks the sex
with Angel part is the big news Buffy was hiding from him, when it's
probably the least important of the things she held back.
> (What she wanted was an ordinary guy...) I guess I
> can see how he'd go there after the jealousy from the Dracula
> incident, maybe. Thinking about the motivations here mainly fill me
> with the desire to think about something else. On a separate
> criticism, I wasn't very fond of the part in the caves as a whole. A
> distinction I sometimes make is between scenes that feel like
> conversations, and those that just feel like semi-connected monologues
> in which the lines could be rearranged in random order. This falls
> into the latter category. Buffy's getting a little misty-eyed and
> I'm checking my watch - usually a sign that your scene isn't
> working for me.
Well, the conversation connected for me. *They* didn't connect. Riley
essentially caved because he couldn't logically refute what Buffy said - and
also knew full well that he was genuinely sick. But he could still feel
that Buffy wasn't truly giving him all, and it hurt.
> Oh yeah, and Blucas seems flat throughout the episode. Or maybe it's
> just that he can't save the material he's given. Well, I did like
> him punching out Graham once the situation took shape. Otherwise?
> Bored now. Very bored.
I believe I'm in a small minority here, but I like what they do with Riley
this year - much more so than in S4, when I think they tried to demand too
much and the wrong things from his role. The focus and scope is better this
year and makes sense to me.
There are two more very big moments for Riley in this episode - both
following up on what I said above. First is Buffy and Riley together after
the operation. That started out well with Buffy going to him and saying she
was still touchable. But it ended with Buffy leaving to check on her
mother. Such a reasonable thing to do - how could one object? But Riley
really, really wanted her to stay. Just this once be totally devoted to
him. As selfish as it might seem, it hurt him badly that she left.
The second is his final scene with Graham. (Boy, is Riley pasty faced awful
looking!) You brought up being torn between army buddies and Buffy and
Graham asking what else he has in Sunnydale. But that's all secondary. The
key moment is this question from Graham.
GRAHAM: Okay, right, there's her. And? You used to have a mission, and now
you're what? The mission's boyfriend? Mission's true love?
Riley would be more than happy to answer yes to that. That's all he really
wants. Graham isn't enticing him with anything. The problem for Riley is
that he believes the answer is no. He's not "Mission's true love". And
that's his problem.
> Huge amounts of Harmony this week, and we've already gone over how I
> feel like a little of her goes a long way. It makes sense to pair her
> with Spoik again, given how well that dynamic has worked in the past.
> There are some amusing moments, particularly Spike's restrained
> reaction to hearing that Buffy is Harmony's arch-nemesis. Are we
> really supposed to believe that she couldn't hear anything from
> inside that coffin, though?
Why not? It's not like it has air holes to listen through. I'd expect
things to be pretty muffled in there.
> So I was able to take the stuff as the
> silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
> although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
> and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
> fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
> the writers think.
Sure they are. Every one of them. I loved how Harm's premature shot
deflated the big stand-off betwen the group right before the fight.
> I do think it was a mistake to make said ruse so
> obvious, though, since that lets us know exactly how the fight at the
> end is going to play out, adding to the why-are-we-here vibe.
Showoff! I didn't know it was a ruse. I couldn't see what he did anymore
than Spike could. And I had heard Harmony confirm that the doctor had found
the chip.
> I like the idea of Xander's "I had this friend once, who really
> liked this girl, and ... he got all worried that maybe she didn't like
> him back... and maybe that made him act like a total jerk," but it
> doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with the conversation
> it's in.
He's talking about himself and Buffy back in high school. He's trying -
very unsuccessfully - to get Buffy to see that Riley is worried that she
doesn't love him. Xander is hoping Buffy would get the idea remembering how
Xander acted. But Buffy is clueless - probably never got the connection
with Xander's behavior back then. Then Anya gets it even wronger by
assuming that Xander was talking about her. I'm not sure what Willow
thought. She's the one who asked Xander what he was going on about. Maybe
she thought he was talking about her.
> I unambiguously like "well, here's a hot tip, if you want
> attention? *Be* there so people can give it to you."
Really? You do understand, don't you, that from Riley's point of view he
*has* been there. Worked hard at it actually. Buffy seems to want him to
be there just when she wants him to - not when Riley wants to.
> I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. I suppose it
> says something about either the low quality of the episode or my high
> gullibility that I really believed that the writers were going to go
> through with the thoroughly stupid idea of having the two burst into
> passion for each other. (Actually, I'm going to blame The Scene That
> Should Not Be [that'd be the closet scene in "What's My Line
> II," for those just tuning in] for setting a precedent of
> legitimizing the love/hate bullshit in the Buffyverse.) But no, even
> in its weaker moments, BTVS proves to be too good for that. Instead we
> end up with Spike waking up and saying "oh god, no," when he
> realizes what this might mean about his Slayer obsession. There's
> still potential for awfulness there, make no mistake, but given proper
> handling, this thread still has a chance to end up worthwhile.
What had me going for a while was the notion that Buffy was really going to
kill Spike this time. This was the best reason she's had to off him since
the chip IMO. And Buffy had said earlier that she was going to do it.
The kiss just left my mouth agape. No time to assimilate it before Spike
woke up - which I loved. And still do. Poor Spike.
The suggestion Buffy was going to kill Spike is a nice misdirect - and in
retrospect it even makes sense that Riley and Mom would be sufficient
distraction to keep Bufffy from following up with Spike just then.
But in the never ending dispute on whether Spike should be killed, this is
the moment when I'm most sympathetic to the position. I don't necessarily
conclude that has to the result, but it doesn't feel right to me that there
isn't some kind of direct follow-up by Buffy. I suppose the concluding
dream makes that difficult to fit in, but still... it's a gap.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
> uninteresting.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Very strong Good for me, nipping at the heels of Excellent.
OBS
Elisi
> Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
> haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
> the way out.
Amen. :)
Mostly I just want to marry your brain and have its babies. (The fact
that I am *already* married with children is a bit of a problem
though...)
So what I'll settle for is that once you've finished this re-watch (and
first time Angel watch), you'll get a LiveJournal and post your
brilliant thoughts there. (Don't get one yet - the whole place is full
of spoilers everywhere!) Actually AOQ should get one too and you could
post together or something...
>The suggestion Buffy was going to kill Spike is a nice misdirect - and in
>retrospect it even makes sense that Riley and Mom would be sufficient
>distraction to keep Bufffy from following up with Spike just then.
>But in the never ending dispute on whether Spike should be killed, this is
>the moment when I'm most sympathetic to the position. I don't necessarily
>conclude that has to the result, but it doesn't feel right to me that there
>isn't some kind of direct follow-up by Buffy.
Agreed. I still remember watching it the first time and thinking 'OMG
she's going to kill him!'
I'm glad she didn't, of course, but she would have been justified. I
guess the fact that she didn't think him important enough to kill might
be another thing that rankles?
One Bit Shy
news:1149789175.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
>> haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
>> the way out.
>
> Amen. :)
>
> Mostly I just want to marry your brain and have its babies. (The fact
> that I am *already* married with children is a bit of a problem
> though...)
Since we know from this episode that the brain is a pink and wriggly-looking
sex organ, this would be dangerous territory indeed. ;-)
> So what I'll settle for is that once you've finished this re-watch (and
> first time Angel watch), you'll get a LiveJournal and post your
> brilliant thoughts there. (Don't get one yet - the whole place is full
> of spoilers everywhere!) Actually AOQ should get one too and you could
> post together or something...
I've toyed with the idea of a blog using Buffy as a tangential theme. As in
applying BtVS quotes to independent topics. Maybe someday. But I'm a
little skeptical of a straight Buffy blog. It would be a bit dated and -
well - it's been done.
>>The suggestion Buffy was going to kill Spike is a nice misdirect - and in
>>retrospect it even makes sense that Riley and Mom would be sufficient
>>distraction to keep Bufffy from following up with Spike just then.
>
>>But in the never ending dispute on whether Spike should be killed, this is
>>the moment when I'm most sympathetic to the position. I don't necessarily
>>conclude that has to the result, but it doesn't feel right to me that
>>there
>>isn't some kind of direct follow-up by Buffy.
>
> Agreed. I still remember watching it the first time and thinking 'OMG
> she's going to kill him!'
>
> I'm glad she didn't, of course, but she would have been justified. I
> guess the fact that she didn't think him important enough to kill might
> be another thing that rankles?
Since Spike dreams of her coming to kill him, I think it's highly probable
that you're right.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149789175.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >
> >> Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
> >> haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
> >> the way out.
> >
> > Amen. :)
> >
> > Mostly I just want to marry your brain and have its babies. (The fact
> > that I am *already* married with children is a bit of a problem
> > though...)
It could be so romantic. You could change your last names to Hfuhruhurr
and move to Vienna where you'll attend lectures on screw-top brain
surgery techniques and take OBS's brain for long, leisurely boat rides
on the lake.
It could be the perfect relationship (as long as you avoid elevators
and windex). :p
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Xander interrupted the battle when Spike had the Ring, again
> throwing Spike off-stride.
That's what I'd call a radical interpretation of the text. Xander's
interruption lasted about half a second, and didn't seem to affect Spike
in the least. He goes right on hitting, and taunting Buffy with his
invulnerability. It isn't until he adds his comments about Angel into
the mix, and makes her mad that the fight turns around. By that time
Spike has probably forgotten that Xander interrupted at all.
Elisi
> I've toyed with the idea of a blog using Buffy as a tangential theme. As in
> applying BtVS quotes to independent topics. Maybe someday. But I'm a
> little skeptical of a straight Buffy blog. It would be a bit dated and -
> well - it's been done.
Oh but LiveJournal is so much more than just a blog...
But I shall leave it for now - I can always come back to tempt you at
some point in the future. ;)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149789175.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >
> >> Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
> >> haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
> >> the way out.
> >
> > Amen. :)
> >
> > Mostly I just want to marry your brain and have its babies. (The fact
> > that I am *already* married with children is a bit of a problem
> > though...)
>
> Since we know from this episode that the brain is a pink and wriggly-looking
> sex organ, this would be dangerous territory indeed. ;-)
>
>
> > So what I'll settle for is that once you've finished this re-watch (and
> > first time Angel watch), you'll get a LiveJournal and post your
> > brilliant thoughts there. (Don't get one yet - the whole place is full
> > of spoilers everywhere!) Actually AOQ should get one too and you could
> > post together or something...
>
> I've toyed with the idea of a blog using Buffy as a tangential theme. As in
> applying BtVS quotes to independent topics. Maybe someday. But I'm a
> little skeptical of a straight Buffy blog. It would be a bit dated and -
> well - it's been done.
If you are considering it, LJ is definitely the way to go. The fandom
is still kicking there and w/ the upcoming JW penned comics starting in
Oct. it's got a bit of life left in it yet. I'm sure many others
(myself included) would enjoy reading it. It's just a thought....
rrh...@acme.com
Apteryx wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149738391....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > So I was able to take the stuff as the
> > silly fun it was intended as, at first. Still, I must say that
> > although they didn't greatly annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign,
> > and the accidental bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to
> > fall for the doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as
> > the writers think.
>
> Yeah they are - well the no-smoking sign anway.
Me too. I have no problem with the overall rating of this episode as
weak, but I really liked the No Smoking bit.
Richard Hershberger
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > >
> > >>burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>>Ah, this may be the episode I was thinking of earlier when I mentioned
> > >>>Buffy staking vampires before they were even out of the ground.
> > >>>Although it may have happened before this - I can't remember.
> > >>>Regardless, this disproves the rather silly notion that Buffy never
> > >>>kills vampires who can't fight back.
> > >>
> > >>Er, of course they can fight back, she just doesn't give them a chance to.
> > >
> > > A vampire that's still mostly embedded in the ground can't fight back.
> >
> > Until it gets out, of course.
>
> Once it gets out, it can fight back. While it's still stuck in the
> ground, it can't. And here we see Buffy staking vampires still stuck in
> the ground.
We've been over this before, but the issue is that from Buffy's
perspective, something that'll go for the throat the moment it gets out
of the ground is a threat justifying a preemptive attack, while
something incapable of physically hurting her is not. Plus, Spike has
disarmed her some with his comic-reliefness. One can certainly argue
that Buffy is misguided or flat-out wrong in trying to make that
distinction, particularly after an episode like this, but that's how
her brain works. No inconsistencies.
-AOQ
BTR1701
news:1149738391....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > I'll admit, they had me with that Buffy/Spike coda. But no, even
> > in its weaker moments, BTVS proves to be too good for that.
Vs bayl gung jrer gur pnfr. Guvf vf gur zbzrag jurer gur fubj fgbccrq
orvat gbb tbbq sbe gung naq arire ernyyl erpbirerq.
KenM47
Arbitrar Of Quality
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Well, as a number of points:
> You were complaining that Riley dug that chip-thing out of his
> heart-area without any blindingly obvious consequences. So they follow
> it up with an episode about the other consequences of what was done to
> him by Professor Walsh, and you still complain.
I don't recall complaining about that, actually, except in a nitpicky
he-should-have-been-gushing-blood way. As for whether long-term
re-addressing of this point makes sense, I'm simply too burned out on
Initiative stuff to care.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > I do think it was a mistake to make said ruse so
> > obvious, though, since that lets us know exactly how the fight at the
> > end is going to play out, adding to the why-are-we-here vibe.
>
> Its not for the fights. Its hardly ever for the fights.
True. It's the action in a more general sense that's predictable here,
to the point that BTVS almost never sinks. From the moment the doctor
abruptly announced that the chip was out, I knew that the climax would
be Spike attacking Buffy and then doubling over in pain.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I really don't remember Joyce getting knocked out more than maybe once
> before? Someone mentioned this already but I don't think it's overdone.
> Also, passing out due to illness and getting knocked out aren't exactly
> the same thing anyway.
Maybe it doesn't actually happen often. All I know is that I feel like
I remember Joyce sitting on a hospital bed saying that she's more
embrassed than hurt. I feel like we've seen that exact scene at least
twice before, although I couldn't cite where or when.
> However, in all of this... Buffy never says those 3 magic words that
> really WOULD give him the peace of mind about her that he needs. She
> doesn't say it because she doesn't truly feel it.
That's a pretty bald statement. Again, I want to see how this plays
out before arguing too strenuosuly, but I think people get way too
wrapped up in the 3 magic words thing.
An idle speculation, not yet thought through: Maybe what Riley can't
take is that even if Buffy loves him, she can't *need* him in that core
way?
> How would Spike be able to tell what the doc was doing? He was sort of
> occupied w/ having his brain cut open and all. His only fault was
> relying on Harmony to be his eyes.
Spike's one big piece of stupidity was thinking that Harmony could
handle something like that.
> > I like the idea of Xander's "I had this friend once, who really
> > liked this girl, and ... he got all worried that maybe she didn't like
> > him back... and maybe that made him act like a total jerk," but it
> > doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with the conversation
> > it's in.
> Xander really tries to help but then Anya of course thought he was
> talking about her and the whole point was lost, or um... was never
> really there to begin with.
The latter.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Oh, no. Grumpy Grampa took over AOQ's computer again. Grab the kids. Take
> cover. Toss him Riley's enlarged heart to feed upon!
Now go fetch AOQ some more borboun.
>
> Not really. No. What he figured out last episode was that she doesn't love
> him - at least not in the sense he's looking for. He doesn't understand
> why. He only thinks he does.
>
> Back in the Yoko Factor you noticed that Buffy hadn't told Riley about sex
> with Angel. I pointed out then that she also didn't tell him about killing
> Angel. Looking again at Riley's quick summary of what Buffy told him, I
> don't think she told him about knifing Faith either, or sacraficing her
> blood so that Angel could live.
>
> Riley only knows about the sex part of all that. And he's heard in many
> ways how deep their passion was. A passion he's not getting from Buffy. He
> doesn't understand that to Buffy, passion was the path to literal Hell for
> both of them. The most awful set of experiences that Buffy knows or can
> imagine. He doesn't understand that Buffy is still running from that
> passion - not from Riley.
>
> All Riley understands is that he's not getting the passion that he knows
> Angel got. So the only handle he has on it is to wonder what makes Angel
> different from him.
Still digesting that, but that could work for me, especially given the
references to Angel in BvD. Thanks.
> He's talking about himself and Buffy back in high school.
Yeah, we all got that...
> He's trying -
> very unsuccessfully - to get Buffy to see that Riley is worried that she
> doesn't love him. Xander is hoping Buffy would get the idea remembering how
> Xander acted. But Buffy is clueless - probably never got the connection
> with Xander's behavior back then.
... but I'm as confused as Buffy is about what the one has to do with
the other.
-AOQ
Michael Ikeda
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
> (or "Not this crap again...")
> Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
>
> Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser,
> with Buffy staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of
> "why do I even bother to show up?"
As someone else noted, Spike seems to be trying to compete with
Riley here.
> And then there's also that intriguing
> little moment when Joyce asks Dawn "who are you?" and collapses.
One more little clue about Dawn.
>His hangup over
> getting left behind in terms of physical prowess seems kinda
> strange too, given that he's been so easygoing about the
> inequality in the past, and given that, well, like Buffy says,
> doesn't he know her better than that? (What she wanted was an
> ordinary guy...)
She might say she wants an ordinary guy. She might even believe
it. But is it really what she wants? Riley doesn't think so, and
he may be right.
>
> Huge amounts of Harmony this week, and we've already gone over
> how I feel like a little of her goes a long way. It makes sense
> to pair her with Spoik again, given how well that dynamic has
> worked in the past. There are some amusing moments, particularly
> Spike's restrained reaction to hearing that Buffy is Harmony's
> arch-nemesis.
Spike, of course, knows very well that if Buffy really was hunting
Harmony, Harmony would be dust.
One fun little note is that just before Harmony interrupts, Spike
is watching an episode of Dawson's Creek.
And apparently identifying somewhat with Pacey. Which is actually
quite reasonable given what we learn of how Spike REALLY feels
about Buffy.
>Still, I must say that although they didn't greatly
> annoy me, gags like the no-smoking sign, and the accidental
> bow-firing, and the villains being dumb enough to fall for the
> doctor's ruse with the coin, aren't nearly as funny as the
> writers think. I do think it was a mistake to make said ruse so
> obvious, though, since that lets us know exactly how the fight
> at the end is going to play out, adding to the why-are-we-here
> vibe.
As pointed out by others, Harmony was the only one in any position
to detect the ruse and she isn't exactly the hardest vampire to
fool. I'd also disagree with the contention that the ruse was
"obvious". I don't recall exactly what I thought back when the
episode first aired, but I don't think "obvious" is the phrase I'd
have used.
>
> I like the idea of Xander's "I had this friend once, who really
> liked this girl, and ... he got all worried that maybe she
> didn't like him back... and maybe that made him act like a total
> jerk," but it doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with
> the conversation it's in.
Xander is answering Buffy's question about why Riley is acting the
way he is. Except that Xander isn't comfortable with telling Buffy
directly what Riley said, so he tries to tell her in an indirect
way. Unfortunately, no one is paying close enough attention to
Xander to decipher what he's really saying.
>Instead we end up with Spike
> waking up and saying "oh god, no," when he realizes what this
> might mean about his Slayer obsession. There's still potential
> for awfulness there, make no mistake, but given proper handling,
> this thread still has a chance to end up worthwhile.
Incidentally, I seem to recall James Marster quoted as saying that
he played Spike from the beginning as having an underlying
attraction to Buffy. Cannot remember where I saw it, however.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it
> was uninteresting.
Whether you like the episode or not there are a lot of things that
this episode at least appears to be setting up. How they play out
(or if they do) is something that only later episodes will reveal.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Michael Ikeda
> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>
>
>> How would Spike be able to tell what the doc was doing? He was
>> sort of occupied w/ having his brain cut open and all. His only
>> fault was relying on Harmony to be his eyes.
>
> Spike's one big piece of stupidity was thinking that Harmony
> could handle something like that.
Didn't have much choice. Spike can't see directly what the doctor is
doing, so either Harmony can handle the job or it doesn't get done.
Michael Ikeda
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> Still digesting that, but that could work for me, especially
> given the references to Angel in BvD. Thanks.
>
>> He's talking about himself and Buffy back in high school.
>
> Yeah, we all got that...
I don't think Xander is talking about him and Buffy in high school at
all.
Xander is trying to tell Buffy that Riley doesn't think Buffy loves
him.
Xander isn't quite willing to say this directly, probably because he
feels Riley told him it in confidence. So he tries to say it in an
indirect manner, but none of the others understand him.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > little moment when Joyce asks Dawn "who are you?" and collapses.
>
> One more little clue about Dawn.
or nothing about dawn
and joyce has some kind cns process with misfiring neurons
inducing hallucinations and delusions
any number of drugs and diseases can cause this kind of behavior in joyce
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>
> > I really don't remember Joyce getting knocked out more than maybe once
> > before? Someone mentioned this already but I don't think it's overdone.
> > Also, passing out due to illness and getting knocked out aren't exactly
> > the same thing anyway.
>
> Maybe it doesn't actually happen often. All I know is that I feel like
> I remember Joyce sitting on a hospital bed saying that she's more
> embrassed than hurt. I feel like we've seen that exact scene at least
> twice before, although I couldn't cite where or when.
that happened in the episode angel after darla chomps on joyce
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <MBan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1149789175.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > One Bit Shy wrote:
> > >
> > >> Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
> > >> haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
> > >> the way out.
> > >
> > > Amen. :)
> > >
> > > Mostly I just want to marry your brain and have its babies. (The fact
> > > that I am *already* married with children is a bit of a problem
> > > though...)
>
> It could be so romantic. You could change your last names to Hfuhruhurr
> and move to Vienna where you'll attend lectures on screw-top brain
> surgery techniques and take OBS's brain for long, leisurely boat rides
> on the lake.
how many brains does a man need?
two?
> It could be the perfect relationship (as long as you avoid elevators
> and windex). :p
just put a gps tag on merv and stay out of the same cities
burt...@hotmail.com
At this point, we're beyond "misguided." If, after this episode, Buffy
still doesn't see Spike as a clear danger to her and the people she
cares about, all I can say is that she has a genuine mental illness and
needs to get professional help, stat.
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Oh, no. Grumpy Grampa took over AOQ's computer again. Grab the kids.
>> Take
>> cover. Toss him Riley's enlarged heart to feed upon!
>
> Now go fetch AOQ some more borboun.
Coming right up.
http://www.carlyecalvin.com/slideshow2/pages/5oldgrand.htm
(A surprisingly apt link I think.)
>> Not really. No. What he figured out last episode was that she doesn't
>> love
>> him - at least not in the sense he's looking for. He doesn't understand
>> why. He only thinks he does.
>>
>> Back in the Yoko Factor you noticed that Buffy hadn't told Riley about
>> sex
>> with Angel. I pointed out then that she also didn't tell him about
>> killing
>> Angel. Looking again at Riley's quick summary of what Buffy told him, I
>> don't think she told him about knifing Faith either, or sacraficing her
>> blood so that Angel could live.
>>
>> Riley only knows about the sex part of all that. And he's heard in many
>> ways how deep their passion was. A passion he's not getting from Buffy.
>> He
>> doesn't understand that to Buffy, passion was the path to literal Hell
>> for
>> both of them. The most awful set of experiences that Buffy knows or can
>> imagine. He doesn't understand that Buffy is still running from that
>> passion - not from Riley.
>>
>> All Riley understands is that he's not getting the passion that he knows
>> Angel got. So the only handle he has on it is to wonder what makes Angel
>> different from him.
>
> Still digesting that, but that could work for me, especially given the
> references to Angel in BvD. Thanks.
Sure. This is not to say that Riley's instincts about Buffy not truly
loving him are necessarily wrong. What exactly her feelings for him are, is
uncertain enough to leave plenty of room for debate. But I think it goes a
long way towards explaining Riley's Angel obsession and his particular
desire to be superhuman.
>> He's talking about himself and Buffy back in high school.
>
> Yeah, we all got that...
I know. But I have to say it to make the description complete.
>> He's trying -
>> very unsuccessfully - to get Buffy to see that Riley is worried that she
>> doesn't love him. Xander is hoping Buffy would get the idea remembering
>> how
>> Xander acted. But Buffy is clueless - probably never got the connection
>> with Xander's behavior back then.
>
> ... but I'm as confused as Buffy is about what the one has to do with
> the other.
Ok. Crudely, it's boy falls for girl. Boy scared girl doesn't like him.
Boy acts stupid as a result. That's how Xander roughly remembers his
feelings for Buffy - and why he acted stupid. He thinks Riley is doing the
same thing now. So he's hoping that if Buffy remembers how he acted in that
circumstance, Buffy will recognize the same in Riley and realize that Riley
is scared that Buffy doesn't love him.
It's largely delusional though. Xander never had a real relationship with
Buffy remotely like what Riley has. The comparison he sees is valid to
Xander - in his head - but nigh on impossible for Buffy to grasp. You might
say that Xander is learning here just how far from any chance with Buffy he
really was back then.
Xander is probably also unsure how to broach this with Buffy. He knows what
Riley's fears are, but he's not certain how Buffy really feels. So his
attempt to help is too delicately put to connect. Guess he'll just have to
observe some more.
But it wasn't a completely crazy approach. Buffy is totally convinced that
there's no lack of giving on her part. (Whether she's in denial about that
can be debated.) So Xander tries to get her to approach that from the
opposite direction by role playing Riley's side - get her to see how he
feels, rather than how she feels. Alas, it doesn't work.
OBS
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-F4F1F...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <1149804089.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>>
>> > I really don't remember Joyce getting knocked out more than maybe once
>> > before? Someone mentioned this already but I don't think it's overdone.
>> > Also, passing out due to illness and getting knocked out aren't exactly
>> > the same thing anyway.
>>
>> Maybe it doesn't actually happen often. All I know is that I feel like
>> I remember Joyce sitting on a hospital bed saying that she's more
>> embrassed than hurt. I feel like we've seen that exact scene at least
>> twice before, although I couldn't cite where or when.
>
> that happened in the episode angel after darla chomps on joyce
She got knocked out in Ted, but there's no hospital scene after. She and
Buffy talk a little about the experience and decide to watch a movie
together.
I'm not remembering anything else.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> In article <1149792995.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <MBan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1149789175.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark my words. One day you will look back on this episode and see not a
>>>>> haunting but Tinkerbell (a Willow tinkered Tinkerbell of course) lighting
>>>>> the way out.
>>>> Amen. :)
>>>>
>>>> Mostly I just want to marry your brain and have its babies. (The fact
>>>> that I am *already* married with children is a bit of a problem
>>>> though...)
>> It could be so romantic. You could change your last names to Hfuhruhurr
>> and move to Vienna where you'll attend lectures on screw-top brain
>> surgery techniques and take OBS's brain for long, leisurely boat rides
>> on the lake.
>
> how many brains does a man need?
> two?
Bwahaha! I'm so glad somebody caught the reference. :)
>
>> It could be the perfect relationship (as long as you avoid elevators
>> and windex). :p
>
> just put a gps tag on merv and stay out of the same cities
Merv is evil! LOL
Michael Ikeda
news:1149809133.5...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Apart from Buffy's general reluctance to kill when there's a reason
not to, it isn't clear that Buffy and her friends would actually be
safer with Spike dead. So far he's been more effective in helping
them than harming them.
Mel
KenM47 wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
>>(or "Not this crap again...")
>>Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
>>Director: David Grossman
>>
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>So...
>>
>>One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
>>uninteresting.
>>
>>AOQ rating: Weak
>>
>>[Season Five so far:
>>1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
>>2) "Real Me" - Decent
>>3) "The Replacement" - Good
>>4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak]
>
>
>
> Maybe more later, but I liked this one a lot. Not quite an Excellent
> for me, but pretty close.
>
> I liked that we were reminded that Spike is evil. I also found
> conflicted evil "love struck" vampire Spike highly humorous.
>
> Since I was not a Riley hater, I wasn't bothered with a focus on him
> or his unrequited love for Buffy. You do see how she has many
> opportunities and never says the magic words back at him? Even if she
> doesn't mean it down deep?
She makes clear she needs him, but not that she loves him. Riley's
insecurity is piling on now. Add in the seed planted by Graham that he
doesn't belong there (that he's now only "mission's boyfriend" - ouch!)
and we have a nice conflict brewing.
Mel
>
> BTW, in WML, that was the Summers cellar stairs, NOT a closet.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
George W Harris
wrote:
:"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
In Angel, in S1, after Darla bites her, she's in a
hospital talking about how she hurt herself on a
barbecue fork. That's it AFAIR.
:
:I'm not remembering anything else.
:
:OBS
:
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
KenM47
Yes. The creative team did often come off as inconsistent when it came
to the whole Spike business, didn't they?
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
Boy, at this point I really don't see the hidden Xander in high school
message. Xander is talking about what he just heard from Riley IMO,
and for some soap opera reason needs to speak in code rather than just
take his good buddy aside and let her have the info. Riley did not
swear him to secrecy or the like. It's a plot contrivance. At this
stage of the game I could let it pass.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
One Bit Shy
news:88nh82d2gk56pbumn...@4ax.com...
I suppose that's possible, but the way he describes it is so reminiscent of
old Xander that I don't think it's an accident. Plus he says right at the
end that Riley reminds him of that friend. What's the point of code if he's
just going to say that Riley's the same way? How is that different from
saying Riley to begin with instead of "a friend"? The sentences don't make
any sense to me if the friend and Riley are one and the same.
OBS
alphakitten
> alphakitten wrote:
>
>>burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>alphakitten wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>>>>>threads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>>>>Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
>>>>>>(or "Not this crap again...")
>>>>>>Writer: Rebecca Kirshner
>>>>>>Director: David Grossman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>being torn between Buffy's world and his army buddies. The
>>>>>>Initiative storyline refuses to leave us alone, like... uh, some kind
>>>>>>of pale dead thing rising from its grave and haunting the night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Little stuff I liked in the early going includes the teaser, with Buffy
>>>>>>staking creatures in mid-rise and her delivery of "why do I even
>>>>>>bother to show up?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Buffy staking vampires before they were even out of the ground.
>>>>>Although it may have happened before this - I can't remember.
>>>>>Regardless, this disproves the rather silly notion that Buffy never
>>>>>kills vampires who can't fight back.
>>>>
>>>>Er, of course they can fight back, she just doesn't give them a chance to.
>>>
>>>
>>>A vampire that's still mostly embedded in the ground can't fight back.
>>
>>Until it gets out, of course.
>
>
> Once it gets out, it can fight back. While it's still stuck in the
> ground, it can't. And here we see Buffy staking vampires still stuck in
> the ground.
>
Functional vampires who are *momentarily* disabled do not qualify as
demons that can not fight back.
~Angel
lili...@gmail.com
prime. It's the best season of the series.
But then I never liked s1-3 all that much. It was like Firefly to me,
ok to watch, but nothing that kept me thinking about it, once I turned
off the tv. (Sorry AOQ, I tried to watch Firefly, but like with Angel
with you, it's just not a show that connects with me.)
s4 on the other hand was when Buffy set it's first steps towards
maturity and s5 is when it finally sets a foot in the pool and dares to
explore beyond that. The arc that started in this ep is probably what
has kept me in Buffy fandom even now.
Lore
Kevin wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > One-sentence summary: I'm out of interesting ways to say that it was
> > uninteresting.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Weak
>
>
> Welcome to Dullsville! You'll be stayin' a while. Enjoy the lil'
> bright spots when they come, 'cause we sure gots some Dull 'round here,
> and you ain't seen nothin' yet.
>
> -- Ol' coot
Arbitrar Of Quality
> But then I never liked s1-3 all that much. It was like Firefly to me,
> ok to watch, but nothing that kept me thinking about it, once I turned
> off the tv. (Sorry AOQ, I tried to watch Firefly, but like with Angel
> with you, it's just not a show that connects with me.)
There are multiple versions of the DVD sets floating around with
entirely different content. That's the only explanation for statements
like this.
-AOQ
~I feel like anyone who can't get into _Buffy_ S3 or _Firefly_ has no
soul~
~~but maybe different people are capable of having wildly diverging
opinions, or something like that~~
angelbuffy0
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> ~I feel like anyone who can't get into _Buffy_ S3 or _Firefly_ has no
> soul~
Can I kiss you?
lili...@gmail.com
Willow to the core of my soul and Joss might actually agree with
you*eg*
Lore
(really honestly, there is no character on any show ever that I've ever
hated as much as I do Willow ;-))
lili...@gmail.com
that all the characters feel flat. There isn't one of them that sticks
out. Not a single one that feels like a real person to me.
Well that and there's no non-human characters. If I'm watching sci fi
then I want non-human characters damn it ;-)
Lore
Arbitrar Of Quality
KenM47 wrote:
> Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
> >She makes clear she needs him, but not that she loves him. Riley's
> >insecurity is piling on now. Add in the seed planted by Graham that he
> >doesn't belong there (that he's now only "mission's boyfriend" - ouch!)
> >and we have a nice conflict brewing.
> >
>
> Yup.
I might reverse that. It seems like she might love him, but doesn't
need him the way he... uh, needs her to need him.
-AOQ
~this post could get _Jerry McGuire_-esque~
Arbitrar Of Quality
> More seriously though, the problem with Firefly for me personally, is
> that all the characters feel flat. There isn't one of them that sticks
> out. Not a single one that feels like a real person to me.
My brother and I both commented that the whole cast all came to life
for us, probably more quickly than for any other show I've ever
watched.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> soul~
everyone knows white boys dont dance
(white boys are so pretty
skin as smooth as milk
white boys are so pretty
hair like chinese silk)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> More seriously though, the problem with Firefly for me personally, is
> that all the characters feel flat. There isn't one of them that sticks
> out. Not a single one that feels like a real person to me.
>
> Well that and there's no non-human characters. If I'm watching sci fi
> then I want non-human characters damn it ;-)
in the message they had that alien in a jar on display
vague disclaimer
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> Oh and add to that the fact that I utterly and whole heartedly despise
> Willow
What have you been told about coming off your meds?
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
vague disclaimer
<mair_fheal-3F34A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> in the message they had that alien in a jar on display
It was a cow.
vague disclaimer
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
But not in this case.
Stephen Tempest
>I might reverse that. It seems like she might love him, but doesn't
>need him the way he... uh, needs her to need him.
It seems to me that she does love him... but only in the way she loves
Willow and Xander...
Whether she herself has realised this yet is another question.
Stephen
kenm47
That "love" is a tepid shadow of what she had going with Princess Bride
"true love" Angel. Should Riley be content with getting most of the
package, but not a significant part? Maybe. But I can understand where
his character is coming from. And the words really are important to so
many people, and they are clearly writing Buffy to NEVER say the words
to Riley.
Ken (Brooklyn)
<suddenly feeling he's seen too many chick flics and too many chick TV
shows>
kenm47
Particularlty when viewed in the proper order.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
>>threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Five, Episode 4: "Out Of My Mind"
>>(or "Not this crap again...")
>
> This episode was just plain bad.
Nah, it's just filler, but on the borderline to descent.
However, I would like to make a general comment: In my eyes, season four
is the most underrated, (with season one), and season five the most
overrated, of the seasons.
But I wish I had some more Buffy-fillers to watch for the first time.
You _should_ savor the moment, AOQ.
--
Espen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article
> <mair_fheal-3F34A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > in the message they had that alien in a jar on display
>
> It was a cow.
firefly takes place in the alternate future created by the robots for humans
where there were no robots nor aliens
One Bit Shy
For me the issue is a little different. It's not that the characters don't
come to life. On the contrary - they do. They're pretty full characters -
within the limits of such a short series. (Lots of hidden things still.)
My problem is that real or not, I never especially liked any of them. Never
got that feeling of personal attachment that makes me really care what they
go through.
There's potential, mind you. And I think I was moving in that direction
with a few of them. But for me, that aspect of their characterizations was
never realized. (Haven't seen the movie yet.)
I still enjoyed the series a lot though. The production values. The
intriguing universe they operated in. Some real corkers as stories. I was
especially startled at what a fresh take the show had on the team/family
aspect of life on a space ship. I guess the Star Trek franchise doesn't
really own the rights to the concept. And I could easily go on... But the
lack of personal connection for me is a big deal and everything to do with
why BtVS is far, far above Firefly for me.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
It makes sense if you assume that Xander did the whole sentence in code
planning not to name this "friend," and only tacked Riley's name on
afterwards when he saw that Buffy wasn't getting it.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Rowan Hawthorn
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> But then I never liked s1-3 all that much. It was like Firefly to me,
>> ok to watch, but nothing that kept me thinking about it, once I turned
>> off the tv. (Sorry AOQ, I tried to watch Firefly, but like with Angel
>> with you, it's just not a show that connects with me.)
>
> There are multiple versions of the DVD sets floating around with
> entirely different content. That's the only explanation for statements
> like this.
>
I don't know, I blame major childhood trauma.
> -AOQ
> ~I feel like anyone who can't get into _Buffy_ S3 or _Firefly_ has no
> soul~
> ~~but maybe different people are capable of having wildly diverging
> opinions, or something like that~~
>
Y'think? ...nah, couldn't be...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
> Oh and add to that the fact that I utterly and whole heartedly despise
> Willow to the core of my soul and Joss might actually agree with
> you*eg*
Now *I* agree with him, too.
>
>
> Lore
> (really honestly, there is no character on any show ever that I've ever
> hated as much as I do Willow ;-))
>
Heathen. Blasphemer. Prepare to grovel before the shrine of the Red
Witch...
kenm47
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >>
> >
> > I suppose that's possible, but the way he describes it is so reminiscent of
> > old Xander that I don't think it's an accident. Plus he says right at the
> > end that Riley reminds him of that friend. What's the point of code if he's
> > just going to say that Riley's the same way? How is that different from
> > saying Riley to begin with instead of "a friend"? The sentences don't make
> > any sense to me if the friend and Riley are one and the same.
>
> It makes sense if you assume that Xander did the whole sentence in code
> planning not to name this "friend," and only tacked Riley's name on
> afterwards when he saw that Buffy wasn't getting it.
>
>
> --Chris
Agreed. That's the way I saw it.
Ken (Brooklyn)
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote in
> news:1149809133.5...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> not to, it isn't clear that Buffy and her friends would actually be
> safer with Spike dead. So far he's been more effective in helping
> them than harming them.
Only because he's failed at achieving his goals. If someone tries to
get you and your friends killed, but fails, you don't just shrug your
shoulders and give him free license to try again. That's pure insanity.
burt...@hotmail.com
And that's all Spike is - "momentarily" disabled. It's just a question
of how long the moment is. The difference is that Spike has proved he's
still a danger to Buffy and her friends even with his disability.
Michael Ikeda
news:1149880074.6...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
Except that, given Spike's personality, there's a very good chance
he'll continue to be more effective at helping them than harming
them.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Eric Hunter
> In article
> <mair_fheal-3F34A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> in the message they had that alien in a jar on display
>
> It was a cow.
But, it was an alien cow... ;-)
Eric.
--
vague disclaimer
Eric Hunter <hunt...@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
My food is problematic.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
so youve seen the kfc bucket o vomit they started advertising on tv?
(potatoes corn chicken grease gravy and cheese piled on top of each other)
KenM47
Again, works better if viewed in proper order IMO.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
Yes, in this case. In short order Spike has twice tried to see that
the Slayer gets real dead, yet nothing is done to dust him.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
A tad more than that, 'cause that's almost incestuous. She's
comfortable enough to have passionate sex with him, but not to love
him.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1149832915.5...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
<SNIP>
>My problem is that real or not, I never especially liked any of them. Never
>got that feeling of personal attachment that makes me really care what they
>go through.
>
<SNIP>
And I was surprised how much I did care about them, except for that
traitorous Jayne. Him they could have thrown out an airlock for all I
cared.
Ken (Brooklyn)
alphakitten
She loves him, she's just not *in love* with him.
~Angel
alphakitten
Just like he wasn't dusted (despite being trapped) in Lie to Me. Just
like he wasn't dusted after kidnapping X&W in Lover's Walk. Stupid,
sure. Inconsistent, no.
~Angel
KenM47
Except the current reason is supposedly how harmless he is. He ain't
harmless.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Horace LaBadie
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Except the current reason is supposedly how harmless he is. He ain't
> harmless.
Ineffectual, hapless, feckless -- take your pick. Nothing he does turns
out as planned. He's a putz, a nebbish, and a shlemiel.
HWL
KenM47
Which is why I tolerated him in Season 5.
Ken (Brooklyn)
alphakitten
Compared to LtM & LW, he's as harmless as a kitten.
~Angel
KenM47
That he wasn't dusted in S2 was plausible enough. A deal was made in
LtM. S3 LW is explainable by the confusion of his just having been a
comrade in arms in the fight at the magic shop and the new deal for
X's and W's whereabouts (but yes, he should have been dust then and
there) and I can't help but understand that with a one shot for the
season ME wanted to keep options open for story lines later.
As of OOMM it's just a tad silly and now coming across as pure
contrivance. But there was still a lot of season left at that point
and the Dawn mystery was sufficiently distracting. Who knew what was
to come? Dust or no by season's end?
Ken (Brooklyn)
Stephen Tempest
>Except the current reason is supposedly how harmless he is. He ain't
>harmless.
In honour of Douglas Adams, would you prefer it if we referred to him
as "mostly harmless", then?
Stephen
Michael Ikeda
news:hwlabadiejr-9D69...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews
.net:
Although he often is reasonably effective when he's working WITH the
Scoobies...
KenM47
>Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote in
>news:hwlabadiejr-9D69...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews
>.net:
>
>> In article <vhfl8290hrmdm8sbc...@4ax.com>,
>> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Except the current reason is supposedly how harmless he is. He
>>> ain't harmless.
>>
>> Ineffectual, hapless, feckless -- take your pick. Nothing he
>> does turns out as planned. He's a putz, a nebbish, and a
>> shlemiel.
>
>Although he often is reasonably effective when he's working WITH the
>Scoobies...
Funny that.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
vague disclaimer
> >>>>Yes. The creative team did often come off as inconsistent when it came
> >>>>to the whole Spike business, didn't they?
> >>>
> >>>But not in this case.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, in this case. In short order Spike has twice tried to see that
> >> the Slayer gets real dead, yet nothing is done to dust him.
> >>
> >> Ken (Brooklyn)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Just like he wasn't dusted (despite being trapped) in Lie to Me. Just
> >like he wasn't dusted after kidnapping X&W in Lover's Walk. Stupid,
> >sure. Inconsistent, no.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~Angel
>
>
> Except the current reason is supposedly how harmless he is. He ain't
> harmless.
No. The current reason is how *defenceless* he is.
KenM47
alphakitten
If Buffy decides to stake him, how is he able to defend himself?
~Angel
KenM47
Aside from getting the Hell out of Dodge? Why is he in SunnyD? Why
does he keep confronting her?
Also, I do not recall the chip stopping him from defensive moves, only
offensive. Or have Harmony (since he's made enemies of just about
every other vamp and demon) get a gun and shoot her or burn down Casa
Summers, etc.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Rowan Hawthorn
Then you need to rewatch, for example, "The Initiative," where Spike's
howling about his head the whole time he's trying to struggle free of
the commandos outside Willow's door. Riley even specifically states at
the end of the episode that he "can't hardly even hit anything anymore."
While I agree that it would have been more prudent to stake Spike by
this time, about the only defensive moves he's capable of making without
the chip kicking in are ducking, parrying, and running like a rabbit -
none of which are very efficient against a Slayer. Of course, he
*could* get the hell out of Dodge, but then, he's not the brightest
light on the Christmas tree...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
KenM47
I thought the pain kicked in with the offensive blow, not the
defensive cover-up and cower.
And the part of my post you snipped? Getting Harmony or whoever else
he can convince to shoot Buffy from a distance or burn down her house?
Or anything like that?
Ken (Brooklyn)