AOQ Review 7-15: "Get It Done"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
(or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
schedule.")
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: Douglas Petrie
Love the Anya/Spike nit that opens the show proper. Adore it. Well,
my complaint about how it doesn't make sense for D'Hoffryn to be
sending demons to kill Anya still stands, but otherwise, just about
everything about it, funny and serious, is spot-on. Maybe the writers
only throw these two together once in awhile to make sure it seems like
a special treat. Favorite parts include... ah, hell, delivery from
both sides is just right, and here's a large chunk of the scene,
slightly edited:
ANYA: At first, I thought... it's weird. Is Spike asking me out on a
date? 'Cuz that would just be... nuts.
SPIKE: Right. I'm just out for the alcohol.
ANYA: Right there with you, Scooter. Tonight, I plan to drink you
under the table.
SPIKE: You're on, then.
ANYA: Good. Of course, once you're down there, I could join you.
Kidding. I like my sex on top of the table.
SPIKE: Would you let it go?! You're like a dog with a bone!
ANYA: So what?
SPIKE: It's my bone. Just drop it.
ANYA: OK. OK. I wasn't proposing. Time goes by, girl gets hungry.
You should know.
SPIKE [seeing the demon behind Anya]: Oh, thank God.
DEMON: [shove] D'Hoffryn says you die.
SPIKE: Of course he does. [kick]
After a slayerdream, and a visit from the first slayer (totally called
her appearance), Buffy seems changed. The frustration first starts to
emerge when showing Wood around the place, and feeling inadequate in
front of the hot older guy, going off about how this isn't
"enough," and even starting to lose patience with the wicca who
won't-a. Given that they don't really have an enemy to fight or
know what they're up against, it's a little hard to judge people.
What's Willow supposed to do, use a dark magical research spell? But
on-edge and worried, okay, I'm with the show up to there.
Before we pass anything by to continue that thought, though, there's
the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
physical posturing. Thankfully, the former hasn't run off in some
kind of insane rampage, but he's playing his knowledge and plans
close to the vest. And Spike's mind is presumably sending him
conflicting signals about standing his ground like a man (especially in
front of a potential target of both guys' affections), wanting to
show proper guilt over his past, and trying to be convincing in
asserting that the soul does change things. It's an intense moment,
with the old but useful trick of pairing innocuous dialogue with
delivery and mannerisms that convey something different.
Having the MC50 doing military drills continues to develop the idea of
Buffy's little army, which I suppose is meant to set up the final
shot. "That's not'n army! *This* is'n army!" I'd wonder
about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots, but I
kinda forgot to care. Are they all supposed to be living in the one
house?
The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch. The show has a
room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time. It would seem that
here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
Especially Spike, who gets hit by one of the less justified of the
rant-lets. And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
Everyone has momentary outbursts and takes their frustrations out on
others, but this seems to be something more.
The shadowplay puppet show works just as a visual device. It's wacky
and different enough to be intrinsically unsettling. Seems like Dawn
is rapidly taking over as the scholar of the group. She also has a
bunch of good lines this week (the speech about her plans for school,
ancient Sumerians not speaking English, etc.).
Rather abruptly, a glowy portal appears, and Buffy immediately jumps
into it and has mystical experiences. Um, okay. This seems
reminiscent of past dream-episodes like TWOTW, but here that's not
much of the buildup that makes the trips to other worlds seem immediate
and pertinent. The whole trip to see the ancients ("and that's where
we're going... right back to the beginning"), and Willow pulling her
back out again, comes across as pretty random and confusing, and I'm
having to lean on the transcript to even remember what happened. The
black shadow-thing trying to get into Buffy makes me think someone
played one too many games of _Ico_, if that's not a contradiction in
terms. There's also a lot of fairly overt imagery related to sex
(both meanings of the word) in this whole sequence that I won't
recount at length, since the heavier pseudo-feminist metaphorical tone
has never added anything to my enjoyment of the show.
Also unfocused, and it's unclear whether the confusion is deliberate
or not, is the way that the group directs all of its efforts
single-mindedly towards the vanished Buffy and nothing else; needing
her is what spurs them to become what she seemed to want. This idea
that Spike and the others were all missing a step until now in terms of
violence and capacity for action doesn't really work for me. What I
mean is that the show makes its argument pretty clearly, but it bothers
me - why is, say, showing caution out of concern for Anya such a bad
thing to be doing? Is this the first time we've seen him smoke since
coming back from Africa?
Willow's sequence has a lot going on in it. It's too busy for me
to call it particularly successful, given that it's easy for the
first-time viewer to miss some of the details... as I can attest to,
having watched that part twice. There's enough interesting stuff in
it that I'm glad I did. I think thematically it echoes the past
(Willow in charge but not in control, Xander being the one to pull her
back, etc.) as much as it potentially speaks to the future.
In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
"violated." Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
of the MC50? Also something that hadn't occurred to me before but
makes sense as a possibility: that for whatever reason, the slayer line
could end with Buffy. I suppose it says something about the series's
skill that I was also buying into the notion that this was something
eternal. Hey, it's the last year, challenge everything we know.
Finally, I notice that in response to another "it's about power"
prompt, we see Buffy rejecting power as a solution, albeit wondering if
it was a mistake. Ultimate meaning? Not entirely clear yet, at least
to me. Well, if nothing else we can say that the show has put a few of
these concepts on the table for discussion.
So...
One-sentence summary: Okay.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good
12) "Potential" - Good
13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
14) "First Date" - Decent
15) "Get It Done" - Decent]
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch.
Buffy's always had a bitchy side.
> The show has a
> room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
> unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time. It would seem that
> here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
> based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
> Especially Spike, who gets hit by one of the less justified of the
> rant-lets. And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
> initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
> out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
> Everyone has momentary outbursts and takes their frustrations out on
> others, but this seems to be something more.
She's trying to be the general and not doing a very good job, and she's
being affected by the stress and of being responsible for the potentials.
Its worth noting she's never really been this responsible for others
before.
[snip]
> on the table for discussion.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Okay.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Excellent for me, although I will say the first time I saw it I didn't
regard it so highly. I think it explored abuses of power (power without
control as some people have termed it) very well, and people coming to
terms with themselves and integrating all aspects of their personalities.
--
You can't stop the signal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
its likely spike doesnt realize he killed robins mother
alot of slayers have come and gone since his death
robin on the other hand is standing next to the beast he swore vengeance on
and its being treated like a man by a slayer (just as his mother was)
> shot. "That's not'n army! *This* is'n army!" I'd wonder
> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots, but I
> kinda forgot to care. Are they all supposed to be living in the one
> house?
buffy is the one girl alone in all the world
shes not supposed to have friends and family
and shes not supposed to be leading an army
i can understand if shes having problems with the role
i assume kennedy is getting by on the arrogance of her upbringing
and sleeping her way to the top
> The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
plus she says ttfn
truest evil
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
this is similar to giles circle the waggons speech
if this battle doesnt kill her buffy knows the next one or soon after that will
and she willing to go into war body and soul
she needs willow and spike to deal with their issue
and get ready to war body and soul as well
and for them to stop cowering from their own demons
the potentials are not superhumanly strong
but at least they can do better than stand around waiting to be killed
or killing themselves
> rant-lets. And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
whats she is saying to embrace their pain
spank their inner moppet whatever
and get ready to die in battle
if you regard first evil not as an independent external agent
but as a state within their own minds
then their battle with first evil is actually a battle
within themselves to control their own fears and anger and evil impulses
amy said that willows own subconscousness chose the nature of her punishment
expanding on that willow can blame her problems on fe or malediction curses
but perhaps the solution to her problems
is not to look outward for something to blame
but to look inward for something to control
she still fears she will rampage and try to destroy the world
until she control her anger and her fear and her fear of her anger
she is crippled and useless in the war
it would also mean that when buffy faces her own inner demons
she really does have the power to order fe to leave her
spikes demon is a disassociative state that bypasses controls like a chip or soul
and lets him murder human beings
he has to confront whatever trauma makes the disassociation possible
> The shadowplay puppet show works just as a visual device. It's wacky
> and different enough to be intrinsically unsettling. Seems like Dawn
> is rapidly taking over as the scholar of the group. She also has a
there are slayers and watchers
dawn might well become a watcher
if she lives long enough
> Rather abruptly, a glowy portal appears, and Buffy immediately jumps
> into it and has mystical experiences. Um, okay. This seems
> reminiscent of past dream-episodes like TWOTW, but here that's not
> much of the buildup that makes the trips to other worlds seem immediate
some of the things are not explained
probably because they are not considered relevant by whedon
like where or when buffy met these three men or was it all dream
or the exact mechanics of how willow brought her back
or what the purpose of the exchange student was
what is relevant is spike is back in the leather coat doing the ultraviolence
willow is using her power to do witchy stuff
and buffy (and the viewer) have got some answers about a slayers darkness
whether this is dream or vision or what this is taken as a true account
of how the first slayer was created
and as dracula and adam (in restless) hinted at
the power of the slayer really is the power of demon entered into a girls body
from restless we know the first slayer (the primitive) was without a watcher
these men created a human weapon but they seem rather clueless
about how the weapon works
making the girl do their killing for her
and then abandoning her when the work was done
the watchers came later
also exploiting the demon forced into an innocent girl
but at least giving her some training and support in her lonely fight
so that she was not completely alone
if you go back to beer bad theres a shot of xander warning
not to make cave slayer unhappy
and we see the primitive glare out of buffys eyes
and then we see the primitive herself in restless
and buffy successful resists the primivitives attempts to isolate her
now buffy confronts the men who created the primitive
and resist their attempts to reduce her to a mere weapon
> Finally, I notice that in response to another "it's about power"
> prompt, we see Buffy rejecting power as a solution, albeit wondering if
> it was a mistake. Ultimate meaning? Not entirely clear yet, at least
> to me. Well, if nothing else we can say that the show has put a few of
> these concepts on the table for discussion.
there are different kinds of power
this the same decision as whether spike shouldve been rechipped or dechipped
the chip gives them power to control spike
but his soul gives him the power to control himself
which is stronger? i would like to think his soul
buffy is an unusual (unique?) slayer in that she remained connected to humanity
and that has given her power greater than other slayers
what she was offered could give her the power of a better weapon
but it would mean giving up the power of being human
if the battle with first evil is indeed a battle to control your own inner evil
then what does it profit a slayer to gain the world if she lose her soul?
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
Apteryx
news:1160111159.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
> (or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
> slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
> schedule.")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
>
> Love the Anya/Spike nit that opens the show proper. Adore it. Well,
> my complaint about how it doesn't make sense for D'Hoffryn to be
> sending demons to kill Anya still stands, but otherwise, just about
> everything about it, funny and serious, is spot-on. Maybe the writers
> only throw these two together once in awhile to make sure it seems like
> a special treat.
Yeah, that part is good. I also like the LOTR clip at the end. It's just
everything else that's the problem.
>
> After a slayerdream, and a visit from the first slayer
Who now seems able to talk. In English even.
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch. The show has a
> room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
> unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time. It would seem that
> here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
> based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
> Especially Spike, who gets hit by one of the less justified of the
> rant-lets. And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
> initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
> out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
> Everyone has momentary outbursts and takes their frustrations out on
> others, but this seems to be something more.
There is a possible story-consistent explanation. That the Hellmouth, now
being activated by the First, is making everyone behave a little evil,
including Buffy. But, unless the writers tell you that, who cares? Either
the First has screwed the episode, or the writers have. Either way, it's
still screwed.
> Rather abruptly, a glowy portal appears, and Buffy immediately jumps
> into it and has mystical experiences. Um, okay. This seems
> reminiscent of past dream-episodes like TWOTW, but here that's not
> much of the buildup that makes the trips to other worlds seem immediate
> and pertinent. The whole trip to see the ancients ("and that's where
> we're going... right back to the beginning"), and Willow pulling her
> back out again, comes across as pretty random and confusing, and I'm
> having to lean on the transcript to even remember what happened. The
> black shadow-thing trying to get into Buffy makes me think someone
> played one too many games of _Ico_, if that's not a contradiction in
> terms. There's also a lot of fairly overt imagery related to sex
> (both meanings of the word) in this whole sequence that I won't
> recount at length, since the heavier pseudo-feminist metaphorical tone
> has never added anything to my enjoyment of the show.
A lot of people don't like this sequence, but I don't care about it. The
episode had lost me before she stepped into the portal.
>
> In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
> was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
> changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
> person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> "violated."
How does Buffy know that? If it's "Slayer instinct", isn't she relying on
the powers those guys gave her to know that the powers are misgiven?
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
For me it's Bad. It has "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on the title, so you have
to watch it to say you've watched the whole series, but there's no other
reason to do so. Certainly nothing like enjoyment. It's my 141st favourite
BtVS episode (only Spiral from season 5 and two episodes yet to come rank
below it), 20th best in season 7. I think it also one of the select group of
episodes that have at one time or another been my bottom ranked BtVS episode
(although it has managed to pull itself up 3 places since then).
--
Apteryx
lili...@gmail.com
I'd say this ep has a few good Spike scenes, but is forgettable
otherwise.
Though I do wish they hadn't brought back the coat.
Lore
John Briggs
>> Before we pass anything by to continue that thought, though, there's
>> the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
>
> its likely spike doesnt realize he killed robins mother
> alot of slayers have come and gone since his death
> robin on the other hand is standing next to the beast he swore
> vengeance on
> and its being treated like a man by a slayer (just as his mother was)
>
>> shot. "That's not'n army! *This* is'n army!" I'd wonder
>> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots, but
>> I kinda forgot to care. Are they all supposed to be living in the
>> one house?
>
> buffy is the one girl alone in all the world
> shes not supposed to have friends and family
> and shes not supposed to be leading an army
> i can understand if shes having problems with the role
>
> i assume kennedy is getting by on the arrogance of her upbringing
> and sleeping her way to the top
She's also older than the others, don't forget.
--
John Briggs
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
> (or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
> slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
> schedule.")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
This was another one I hadn't actually watched for years - and I was
very pleasantly surprised! It's a taut, dense, well written episode,
that continually pushes things further. And every time you think it's
done, it ups the ante yet again.
> Love the Anya/Spike nit that opens the show proper. Adore it.
If only he was interested they could make a lovely couple... and you
left out the 'wimpire' from their later talk. A brilliant word. :)
> After a slayerdream, and a visit from the first slayer (totally called
> her appearance), Buffy seems changed. The frustration first starts to
> emerge when showing Wood around the place, and feeling inadequate in
> front of the hot older guy, going off about how this isn't
> "enough," and even starting to lose patience with the wicca who
> won't-a. Given that they don't really have an enemy to fight or
> know what they're up against, it's a little hard to judge people.
> What's Willow supposed to do, use a dark magical research spell? But
> on-edge and worried, okay, I'm with the show up to there.
It's very nicely done: The First Slayer tells her 'it's not enough' -
and then we get a little show and tell that shows exactly what
constitutes 'not enough'. Combined with Giles' speech at he end of the
previous ep. we can see Buffy's heart sink.
> Before we pass anything by to continue that thought, though, there's
> the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
> physical posturing. Thankfully, the former hasn't run off in some
> kind of insane rampage, but he's playing his knowledge and plans
> close to the vest. And Spike's mind is presumably sending him
> conflicting signals about standing his ground like a man (especially in
> front of a potential target of both guys' affections), wanting to
> show proper guilt over his past, and trying to be convincing in
> asserting that the soul does change things. It's an intense moment,
> with the old but useful trick of pairing innocuous dialogue with
> delivery and mannerisms that convey something different.
Also there's Spike trying to work out what Wood's deal is - because
there's something there, but Spike can't work it out.
> Having the MC50 doing military drills continues to develop the idea of
> Buffy's little army, which I suppose is meant to set up the final
> shot. "That's not'n army! *This* is'n army!" I'd wonder
> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots, but I
> kinda forgot to care.
Well she's older, and obviously has had a great deal of training (using
cross-bows since she was 8 f.ex.).
> The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
This is of course the catalyst for everything that comes after.
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch.
Well I wrote down my own thoughts after watching, and this is what I
thought of Buffy:
Chloe's suicide is obviously the last straw for Buffy ("I'm the one
with the power. And the First has me using that power to dig our
graves!") She can just about protect all these people from physical
harm, but she can't protect them from despair. That's their own battle
and not one Buffy can fight _for_ them. But she knows it can be won -
she knows what it's like to be told at 16 that you're going to die. She
knows what it's like look on death as the comfy alternative. She's been
there and done that. Buffy's speech is harsh, but she has some *very*
good points:
"The First isn't impressed. It already knows us. It knows what we can
do, and it's laughing. You want to surprise the enemy? Surprise
yourselves. Force yourself to do what can't be done, or else we are not
an army-we're just a bunch of girls waiting to be picked off and
buried."
You know what it reminds me of? The argument in 'The Yoko Factor':
Buffy: "No! No, you said you wanted to go. So let's go! All of us.
We'll walk into that cave with you two attacking me and the funny drunk
drooling on my shoe! Hey! Hey, maybe that's the secret way of killing
Adam?! Is that it? Is that how you can help? You're not answering me!
How can you possibly help? So . . . I guess I'm starting to understand
why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One . . and her
friends."
The thing is, now they _can_ help. They are powerful, but they're not
using their power. See this episode ties in directly with 'Help' - what
do you do when you know you can't help? Buffy doesn't have an answer
(yet?), but she knows that giving up is definitely the wrong answer.
Cassie gave up - and it nearly got her butchered.
This is what Buffy said in 'Bring On The Night':
"From now on, we won't just face our worst fears, we will seek them
out. We will find them, and cut out their hearts one by one, until The
First shows itself for what it really is."
Now she forces Willow and Spike to face their worst fears, as she jumps
through the portal towards goodness knows what.
> The shadowplay puppet show works just as a visual device. It's wacky
> and different enough to be intrinsically unsettling. Seems like Dawn
> is rapidly taking over as the scholar of the group. She also has a
> bunch of good lines this week (the speech about her plans for school,
> ancient Sumerians not speaking English, etc.).
For anyone interested, here's a nice fic about Dawn:
Umad learns Sumerian:
http://s8219.net/bbfarchive/archive/0/umadlearns.html
(No spoilers)
> Also unfocused, and it's unclear whether the confusion is deliberate
> or not, is the way that the group directs all of its efforts
> single-mindedly towards the vanished Buffy and nothing else; needing
> her is what spurs them to become what she seemed to want.
They're very vulnerable without her, which I think is also sort of the
point - she carries the whole thing entirely on her own shoulders - and
just look what it did to her in WOTW. This time she can't fall apart,
but she's beginning to break under the pressure.
> This idea
> that Spike and the others were all missing a step until now in terms of
> violence and capacity for action doesn't really work for me. What I
> mean is that the show makes its argument pretty clearly, but it bothers
> me - why is, say, showing caution out of concern for Anya such a bad
> thing to be doing?
Willow has *huge* power. The First, being uncorporeal, cannot be
killed, but maybe it could be harmed with magic? We don't know, and
Willow has certainly not tried to find out.
> Is this the first time we've seen him smoke since
> coming back from Africa?
About Spike... oh I love his scenes. He's been trying so very hard to
keep his demon at bay, to be Angel Mark II, and now Buffy tells him
that what she wants is _Spike_! That's a bitter pill to swallow (and
yet, I guess it's nice to be wanted for who you are?). But - I think
it's actually very helpful in getting Spike to become a balanced
person. Remember this bit from 'Guise Will Be Guise' when Angel talks
to the fake swami:
Magev: "Fight!"
Angel: "I am fighting!"
Magev: "Yourself. You're fighting yourself. Fight me! Why are you
holding back? Why can't you let go?"
Angel: "Because."
Magev: "Why?"
Angel over their locked staffs: "If I let it, it'll kill you."
Magev: "It?"
Angel disengages and steps back: "The demon."
Magev: "Ha! But the demon is you!"
Angel: "No."
Magev: "Yes! That's the thing you spend so much energy trying to
conceal!"
Angel shakes his head: "No, I just - I can't let it control me."
Magev nods: "Ah. I see. (Hits Angel's knee hard then hooks the staff
behind his legs to drop him onto his back) You *don't* think it
controls you?"
Spike has the same fear, and has been on the way to creating a similar
sort of split personality that Angel has. But Buffy pushes him, and he
dares to let go of the control, to *be* the demon that tried to kill
Buffy when they first met. From FFL:
SPIKE: Sod off! (laughs) Come on. When was the last time you unleashed
it? All out fight in a mob, back against the wall, nothing but fists
and fangs? Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're going to
win?
ANGELUS: No. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without
that, we're just animals.
As Spike becomes all fists and fangs in his fight with the demon, he
lets out a howl, just like back in 'Doomed' when he discovered that the
chip would let him fight demons:
"That's right. I'm back. And I'm a BLOODY ANIMAL! Yeah!"
Angel always had problems with that side of things - saw vampires as
above humans. Which was why Pylea was such a shock - he discovred that
underneath it all he really was just an animal. Spike on the other hand
always embraced that, and if he can learn to use the demon without
letting it control him (except of course he _is_ the demon), then he
should have a far less bumpy road ahead than Angel.
> Willow's sequence has a lot going on in it. It's too busy for me
> to call it particularly successful, given that it's easy for the
> first-time viewer to miss some of the details... as I can attest to,
> having watched that part twice. There's enough interesting stuff in
> it that I'm glad I did. I think thematically it echoes the past
> (Willow in charge but not in control, Xander being the one to pull her
> back, etc.) as much as it potentially speaks to the future.
She got the job done.
> In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
> was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
> changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
> person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> "violated."
The fact that the Slayer's power comes from a demonic source has been
signposted for a long time:
>From 'Restless':
Human Adam: She's uncomfortable with certain concepts. It's
understandable. Aggression is a natural human tendency. (Looks at
Buffy) Though you and me come by it another way.
(Shot of Buffy with the first Slayer behind her.)
BUFFY: We're not demons.
Human Adam: Is that a fact?
>From 'Buffy Vs. Dracula':
BUFFY: I'm the good guy, remember?
DRACULA: Perhaps, but your power is rooted in darkness. You must feel
it.
~~~
DRACULA: There is so much I have to teach you. Your history, your power
... what your body is capable of... (Of course Spike did a lot of that
- esp. the last one!)
~~~
DRACULA: All those years fighting us. Your power so near to our own...
Not to mention most of S6 and all the things Spike says.
It doesn't really change anything about Buffy, but it shows yet again
the way that they used The Slayer as a weapon, giving her no choice in
the matter.
> Also something that hadn't occurred to me before but
> makes sense as a possibility: that for whatever reason, the slayer line
> could end with Buffy. I suppose it says something about the series's
> skill that I was also buying into the notion that this was something
> eternal. Hey, it's the last year, challenge everything we know.
> Finally, I notice that in response to another "it's about power"
> prompt, we see Buffy rejecting power as a solution, albeit wondering if
> it was a mistake. Ultimate meaning? Not entirely clear yet, at least
> to me. Well, if nothing else we can say that the show has put a few of
> these concepts on the table for discussion.
You barely mentioned the ending. I love it. The shot of all the
Uber-vamps gives me goosebumps in the best possible way. What an
episode.
It also shows _why_ The First is so confident. Essentially what it's
doing at the moment is just playing with the Slayer and her friends, in
the same sort of way that Angelus had fun leaving Jenny's body for
Giles to find... Always go for the pain is its motto.
'It's not enough' is probably the understatement of the series. There's
a forest fire raging, and Buffy has a teaspoon full of water.
> One-sentence summary: Okay.
4 sentence summary: Not nice. Not sweet. It doesn't pull it's punches
and I love it because of that. I might even forgive Mr Petrie for
AYW...
> AOQ rating: Decent
Excellent.
hayes62
> After a slayerdream, and a visit from the first slayer (totally called
> her appearance), Buffy seems changed. The frustration first starts to
> emerge when showing Wood around the place, and feeling inadequate in
> front of the hot older guy, going off about how this isn't
> "enough," and even starting to lose patience with the wicca who
> won't-a. Given that they don't really have an enemy to fight or
> know what they're up against, it's a little hard to judge people.
> What's Willow supposed to do, use a dark magical research spell? But
> on-edge and worried, okay, I'm with the show up to there.
The change had happened already at the end of First Date. He dream may
be partly mystical but it's also expressing her worries about all the
things she's been missing while assuming the First was in remission
and the most pressing problem seemed to be whether her boss had wicked
energy. Soon she'll find out that what they had wasn't peace but
cold war and that's what the First does best. TTFN
> The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
I think before writing Buffy off as a bitch it's worth noting that
Chloe isn't the first dead little girl she's seen. Dreams apart
there was Annabel, then Eve and before that Cassie. And the Katrina,
potentially Dawn and long long ago the Deputy mayor. Buffy has never
been able to just write off the deaths on her watch and this is why I
think, regardless of the finiteness or other wise of the Slayer line,
killing the potentials was such a brilliant strategy for the First to
take. Assuming, as appears now to be the case, that as the last
Guardian of the Hellmouth she's a significant player in its endgame
of all things.
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch. The show has a
> room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
> unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time. It would seem that
> here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
> based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
> Especially Spike, who gets hit by one of the less justified of the
> rant-lets. And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
> initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
> out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
> Everyone has momentary outbursts and takes their frustrations out on
> others, but this seems to be something more.
It's not momentary. Buffy comes into the room having just buried
Chloe's body alone. All she can see is the First having exactly the
effect it might have hoped for, defeat, inaction, despair. For herself
she knows the best way out of that is to get mad, get even, find a
target. So she makes herself that target but she does it ineptly
because it's not an easy tactic to pull off to a room of people who
you don't know and most of whom don't know you very well. Willow
and Spike who are her main targets do know her well enough to
ultimately see through the ruse and take the point - Willow hasn't
been exactly pushing herself and Spike has been losing every fight
he's been in, which is great for their personal development but there
are other things at stake.
Those two aside, in the rest of the room she has no control over the
flow of the argument, she gets sidetracked by Xander's objections and
Anya's interjections. She gets too angry herself , overstates her
case and loses the potentials completely. If they follow her now it
will be out of fear not loyalty or respect.
> Rather abruptly, a glowy portal appears, and Buffy immediately jumps
> into it and has mystical experiences. Um, okay. This seems
> reminiscent of past dream-episodes like TWOTW, but here that's not
> much of the buildup that makes the trips to other worlds seem immediate
> and pertinent. The whole trip to see the ancients ("and that's where
> we're going... right back to the beginning"), and Willow pulling her
> back out again, comes across as pretty random and confusing, and I'm
> having to lean on the transcript to even remember what happened. The
> black shadow-thing trying to get into Buffy makes me think someone
> played one too many games of _Ico_, if that's not a contradiction in
> terms. There's also a lot of fairly overt imagery related to sex
> (both meanings of the word) in this whole sequence that I won't
> recount at length, since the heavier pseudo-feminist metaphorical tone
> has never added anything to my enjoyment of the show.
The episode began with a Slayer dream and that was followed by Wood's
delivery of the big bag of Slayer heritage. Then a slayerette death to
underline that the First is still up to something and they have no idea
what but they do have a new source of information so why not try it?
And it sounds as if you won't like this but I think the Shadowmen are
one in a series of patriarchal figures in evidence this season, some
good some not so good. Beginning with Dumbledore!Giles passing through
D'Hoffryn, and on to the Council. Even these Shadowmen are not all
bad, as Buffy seems to realise at the end when she asks for information
and receives it through the rather fatherly gesture of the last Man
reaching out to touch her cheek. Metaphorical violationists that may be
but they seemed to take no pleasure from it and they had their reasons,
if making a Slayer was the only way to stop an earlier Army of Doom.
> Also unfocused, and it's unclear whether the confusion is deliberate
> or not, is the way that the group directs all of its efforts
> single-mindedly towards the vanished Buffy and nothing else; needing
> her is what spurs them to become what she seemed to want. This idea
> that Spike and the others were all missing a step until now in terms of
> violence and capacity for action doesn't really work for me. What I
> mean is that the show makes its argument pretty clearly, but it bothers
> me - why is, say, showing caution out of concern for Anya such a bad
> thing to be doing?
I think it depends on whether that concern is the main motive for his
apparent cowardice. He has reason to be afraid of himself as does
Willow but hiding from their dark sides isn't a permanent solution
for either of them.
> In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
> was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
> changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
> person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> "violated." Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
> of the MC50?
The Shadowman sequence goes back to the beginning in more ways than
one. To me it strongly recalls Buffy's original response to Giles
reminding her of her calling in WttH:
"Why can't you people leave me alone?"
Thinking about it doesn't every Slayer's story begin with a strange
man turning up and forcing a short and brutal destiny on her?
Stephen Tempest
>> After a slayerdream, and a visit from the first slayer
>
>Who now seems able to talk. In English even.
She always could.
"No... friends. Just... the kill. We... are... alone."
Stephen
Apteryx
news:k0dci2l6col1l9t9d...@4ax.com...
My take on that was that they just figured that the device of having Tara
speaking for her (and beginning to do so by saying "I have no speech") had
gotten old. Having a mute speak was far from the strangest thing done in
Restless.
--
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
>In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
>theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
>business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
>was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
>changes everything).
The subtitles seem very inconsistent in whether they capitalise
'Slayer' or not - I wouldn't read anything into it.
The shooting script, on the other hand, very definitely capitalises
'Slayer' every time it appears in this episode.
> There's the notion that in the making of a
>person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
>"violated."
Tio requote something I wrote earlier on this:
Yes, the origin of the Slayer line was dark and demonic and abusive -
but that doesn't mean that the Slayer power itself is tainted, any
more than a child conceived through rape is itself to blame for that.
"It's not about right, it's not about wrong; it's about power." What
you do with that power is far more important than where it came from.
On a meta level, BtVS is the story of a teenage girl growing into a
woman. Adulthood brings power, and the Slayer energy can be seen as a
metaphor for that power. What the Shadowmen did was force the First
Slayer into an adult's role before she was emotionally ready: the
parallel is child sex abuse rather than 'just' rape. Or alternatively,
I was reminded of the child soldiers in places like Sierra Leone and
Congo, given guns that are almost as big as they are and sent to fight
in the grown-ups' wars without understanding why. (Disturbingly, this
is also what Buffy is currently attempting to do with the Potentials -
mistakenly, as I pointed out in my comment above.)
However, adulthood and everything that goes with it - including the
sex and violence - are not bad things in themelves. Quite the opposite
- as long as you have an adult's understanding and maturity to go
along with the role. I thought it was hugely significant that the
Shadowmen wanted to give Buffy power, and instead she insisted on
being given knowledge instead.
In that moment, she became an adult.
I'd say this is an episode that definitely benefits from re-watching.
It's got a lot of important information and messages, and it really
sets up the theme for the remaining 7 episodes of the series.
Another re-post, with some spoilers snipped:
I think we are meant to see Buffy's actions here as, if not wrong as
such, definitely the product of extreme stress and trauma. After all,
she's just found a dead girl hanging in her spare bedroom!
(And while she's pushing Spike and the others to take more risks, note
that she didn't hesitate to jump right through that portal herself.)
For what it's worth, this is my schematic of what's going on in the
second half of season 7:
1) Buffy gets worn down by stress and responsibility, and the belief
(encouraged by Giles and Wood) that she has to act like a military
commander: heirarchical and authoritarian, and sealing herself off
emotionally from those she leads. She becomes harsh and demanding,
even thought it doesn't come naturally to her, because she feels she
has to.
[snip rest]
Episodes like 'Get It Done' are setting up the first part of the
story, gradually creating a rift between Buffy and the others. Of
course, it's also very consciously a feminist analysis of power and
leadership, setting Giles, Wood and the Shadowmen up against Buffy ...
Stephen
Daniel Damouth
news:eg5110$jov$1...@emma.aioe.org:
>> In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to
>> our theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the
>> post-resurrection business, of exploring the nature of what it
>> means to be the slayer (I was a bit startled to see it not
>> capitalized in the subtitles. This changes everything). There's
>> the notion that in the making of a person into a weapon, the
>> original slayer and all others after her were "violated."
>
> How does Buffy know that?
Buffy's chained to a rock, and an amorphous black demon thing is going
in and out of her mouth and... down below. I think it's clear that the
Slayer line was created via the facilitated demon rape of a young girl
by some old guys.
-Dan Damouth
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
> (or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
> slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
> schedule.")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
> The shadowplay puppet show works just as a visual device. It's wacky
> and different enough to be intrinsically unsettling. Seems like Dawn
> is rapidly taking over as the scholar of the group. She also has a
> bunch of good lines this week (the speech about her plans for school,
> ancient Sumerians not speaking English, etc.).
Dawn also shows herself to be take charge girl, after Buffy disappears.
Willow is busy dithering, afraid to do anything, and it's Dawn who prods
her into action.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
BTR1701
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> > her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> > it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
>
> I think before writing Buffy off as a bitch it's worth noting that
> Chloe isn't the first dead little girl she's seen. Dreams apart
> there was Annabel, then Eve and before that Cassie. And the Katrina,
> potentially Dawn and long long ago the Deputy mayor.
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think the deputy mayor was a
dead little girl.
And you forgot the two kids from "Gingerbread" (even though they weren't
really kids).
> > In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> > theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> > business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
> > was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
> > changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
> > person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> > "violated." Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
> > of the MC50?
>
> The Shadowman sequence goes back to the beginning in more ways than
> one. To me it strongly recalls Buffy's original response to Giles
> reminding her of her calling in WttH:
>
> "Why can't you people leave me alone?"
>
> Thinking about it doesn't every Slayer's story begin with a strange
> man turning up and forcing a short and brutal destiny on her?
The whole rape analogy never really held up for me if for no other
reason than because of girls like Faith. Buffy may have resented her
calling at first but Faith wholeheartedly embraced it. Faith saw it as a
gift, a way out of the miserable and hopeless "normal" life she was
leading, and for the first time in her life felt like she mattered.
So if the show is going to compare a Slayer's calling to rape, then the
logical conclusion is that some of the victims actually enjoy being
raped. Not quite what they had in mind, I think.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Willow has *huge* power. The First, being uncorporeal, cannot be
> killed, but maybe it could be harmed with magic?
And even if it can't be harmed by magick, it's likely that it could be
somehow contained by it. Confined in a supernatural prison.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-D5587B...@news.giganews.com...
take charge.I think Willow was afraid to do anything this time because she
was still very much afraid to use magick. She lost her self-confidence.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Clairel
--Since nobody has answered this question yet: yes, it is the first
time. And symbolically, it's almost as significant as his resumed
wearing of The Coat.
What always bugged me about the scene where Spike goes to get his coat,
though, is that he goes to the school basement for it and roots around
in some cardboard cartons. Are we supposed to imagine that when Buffy
discovered Spike camping out in the school basement at the beginning of
season 7, she brought him his coat which he had left at her house in
"Seeing Red" the previous year? That seems a bit unlikely, given the
complete lack of concern she and the other Scoobies showed for the
basement-camping insane vampire throughout the first five episodes of
season 7! I think it would have made a lot more sense if Spike's coat
had gotten shoved into a storage carton in Buffy's basement, and he
knew it was there because at some point after he moved in, somebody
mentioned it to him. And then when he was goaded by Buffy in episode
7.15, he would have just gone down to her basement to get the coat.
You could have still had the interchange of dialogue between Wood and
Spike while he's getting the coat, because after all, Wood was at
Buffy's house for the big meeting. As the episode actually stands,
Wood had to follow Spike over to the high school and then stand there
watching Spike get his coat and put it on. The whole trip to the high
school just seems silly and unnecessary to me.
By the way, AOQ, what did you think of the musical accompaniment to the
getting-the-coat-in-the-high-school-and-exchanging-terse-dialogue-with-Wood
scene? I ask because it seems to me that ever since Spike's first
appearance in "School Hard," three things have been iconic for Spike:
lighting up cigarettes, wearing The Coat, and heavy metal/punk rock
music. Look at that first Spike scene in "School Hard" again, and
you'll see what I mean.
--Just Decent, eh? That seems to mirror the lack of enthusiasm that
was felt by most viewers back when the episode first aired. I was
always surprised by that, because it seemed to me the episode was
giving viewers what they had always wanted -- a lot more information
about Slayer origins and Slayer mythology. Of course, poor execution
can make any sort of content seem disappointing. But I didn't think
this episode was poorly-executed, aside from the one silly detail of
The Coat being at the high school. Overall I thought the episode was
very well done, and I'm hard put to understand the "eh" reaction that
so many viewers give it.
Clairel
Elisi
I think the point is that she didn't have a choice. Buffy has often
felt trapped by her calling, and if she'd been _asked_ age 15/16 if she
wanted to be a Slayer she would have said no. Faith would have jumped
at the chance. As Stephen T said, there's nothing wrong with sex in
itself - but there is if you force someone. The Shadowmen forced a girl
to become the first Slayer, that's why we get the rape metaphor.
hayes62
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <1160126232....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > > The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> > > her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> > > it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
> >
> > I think before writing Buffy off as a bitch it's worth noting that
> > Chloe isn't the first dead little girl she's seen. Dreams apart
> > there was Annabel, then Eve and before that Cassie. And the Katrina,
> > potentially Dawn and long long ago the Deputy mayor.
>
> Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think the deputy mayor was a
> dead little girl.
Not to impugne the guys' masculinity or anything but can we go with
metaphorical dead little girl, I believe the technical term is damsel.
> > > In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> > > theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> > > business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
> > > was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
> > > changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
> > > person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> > > "violated." Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
> > > of the MC50?
> >
> > The Shadowman sequence goes back to the beginning in more ways than
> > one. To me it strongly recalls Buffy's original response to Giles
> > reminding her of her calling in WttH:
> >
> > "Why can't you people leave me alone?"
> >
> > Thinking about it doesn't every Slayer's story begin with a strange
> > man turning up and forcing a short and brutal destiny on her?
>
> The whole rape analogy never really held up for me if for no other
> reason than because of girls like Faith. Buffy may have resented her
> calling at first but Faith wholeheartedly embraced it. Faith saw it as a
> gift, a way out of the miserable and hopeless "normal" life she was
> leading, and for the first time in her life felt like she mattered.
> So if the show is going to compare a Slayer's calling to rape, then the
> logical conclusion is that some of the victims actually enjoy being
> raped. Not quite what they had in mind, I think.
Which is why, like the show, I quite deliberately stuck with calling it
by the broader term,violation.We don't know how Faith initially reacted
to being called because it was never shown and I'm talking very
specifically about that initial response to the responsibility. Buffy
accepts her calling eventually just as in GiD she accepts that the
Shadowmen may have been right. Returning to Faith, once in Sunnydale
she embraced the skills and strength part of her calling but was less
enamoured of the one girl in all the world bit, the duty to save people
like Finch or her Watcher. So if you going to use the rape analogy, and
to make it even dodgier, yes Faith likes sex but that doesn't mean she
enjoys it in the context of being raped.
stev...@earthlink.net
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
> (or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
> slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
> schedule.")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
>
>snip<
> Having the MC50 doing military drills continues to develop the idea of
> Buffy's little army, which I suppose is meant to set up the final
> shot. "That's not'n army! *This* is'n army!" I'd wonder
> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots, but I
> kinda forgot to care. Are they all supposed to be living in the one
> house?
>
Kennedy is rather under-analyzed as a character, probably because so
many viewers actively dislike her. IMHO, the character's name is not
an accident...alludes to the Kennedy dynasty of Hyannisport which
America has had a love/hate relationship for over 50 years. The BtVS
Kennedy is attractive, privileged, and more than a little arrogant much
like many of the real-life Kennedy family. She also has some
leadership skills, whether you want to acknowledge them or not...
>snip<
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch. The show has a
> room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
> unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time. It would seem that
> here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
> based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
> Especially Spike, who gets hit by one of the less justified of the
> rant-lets. And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
> initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
> out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
> Everyone has momentary outbursts and takes their frustrations out on
> others, but this seems to be something more.
>
[soapbox]The burdens of leading others in a life-or-death struggle
would be a tremendous weight for anyone to bear. Some self-doubt would
be normal and expected. If only our current leadership in this country
had shown this level of self-reflection maybe Iraq wouldn't be the mess
it is today...[/soapbox]
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
>(or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
>slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
>schedule.")
>Writer: Douglas Petrie
>Director: Douglas Petrie
I was going to print my 'Random Comments' post from back when it originally
aired (message <s92a5v4gfpuoooio1...@4ax.com>), but this
response to shannon (DarkMagic) is actually a little more interesting and
touches on something I very much want included in the discussion.
--- begin quoted ---
"DarkMagic" <slnospambi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>"William George Ferguson" <wmgfr...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:l4v55vkoma48rfudv...@4ax.com...
>> Buffy's 'Everybody sucks but me' speech; a lot of pain and anguish
>> pointed at the wrong targets. As I've said before, Buffy is a bully,
>> always has been. Normally she directs herself at bad things, finding
>> an acceptable use for it. Sometimes she doesn't. She needs to be
>> called on it when she doesn't. Xander did the calling, but Buffy
>> wasn't wanting to listen.
>Everybody does suck but her. Is she still a bully if she's telling the
>truth to save their lives?
She wasn't telling them the truth to save their lives, she was lashing
out in pain and anguish. She had a frickin' Slayerdream about Chloe and
didn't save her, that has to be eating her alive, from everything we've
ever seen about Buffy.
>What is Anya doing, exactly?
Staying at Casa Summers because Buffy wanted her to, because Buffy didn't
want to see her die. She didn't invite herself in, Buffy went and got
her (and killed a demon sent by d'Hoffryn).
>Or Spike?
Doing what Buffy told him. He was going to leave, and Buffy told him to
stay, just last week.
>Or Willow?
Not destroying the world, or even kicking every square inch of Buffy's
ass.
>All of these people
>have enormous power and all they do is whine about how hard it is to use it.
>Yeah, it's hard. Tough to be powerful, tough to have all that
>responsibility, tough to consistently be confronted with opportunities for
>evil and continually reject it. But, Buffy does it. And has for years.
>Now she needs them to do it, too. And they darned well better.
Do what?
Buffy doesn't know how to fight the First (yet). She does know that
physical force won't work (and what else is she going to get from Spike).
She does know that direct magical attack won't work (so what else does
she want from Willow). She knows that there aren't any ancient tomes out
there that they have been able to find relevant to the First, so Willow
and Dawn can throw themselves into research all they want, but they don't
actually have any thing to look at.
Buffy tells them they are doing nothing and need to do something
unexpected. Then she says she's the leader "as in 'do what I tell you'."
So, what does she tell them? If she's going to be the leader, she needs
to lead. If she's going to be the commander/director, she needs to
provide orders and direction. Dawn did a massively better job than Buffy
in her handling of Willow and Anya. Maybe Buffy should take some lessons
in how to coordinate the work of others from her little sister.
She virtually ordered Spike and Willow to embrace their dark sides, then,
when presented with the same choice, refused. The final scene with
Willow seemed to imply that the irony was not lost on her.
--- end quoted ---
The part that needs to be included is that the Slayerdream(tm) at the
beginning specifically showed her dead Chloe, but she did nothing proactive
about Chloe. When she found Chloe's body, exactly how would that make the
girl who blames herself even for things she's not responsible for feel?
Underneath Buffy's 'Everyone sucks but me', was 'I suck'. Buffy has nevr
handled a personal failure to protect others well (see WotW for the classic
example). She failed to protect Chloe, even with a Slayerdream(tm)
forewarning, and she has to know that others of these teenage girls that
she has taken responsibility for are going to be killed, in fact she will
probably send some of them to die. She isn't handling it well at all,
emotionally.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Scythe Matters
> The frustration first starts to
> emerge when showing Wood around the place, and feeling inadequate in
> front of the hot older guy, going off about how this isn't
> "enough," and even starting to lose patience with the wicca who
> won't-a.
The way Wood invites himself over is rather uncomfortably forced. It's
apparent that, while he's interested in the bigger picture, he's
especially interested in proximity to Spike. I would have liked to see a
little more reaction to that on Buffy's part.
> Given that they don't really have an enemy to fight or
> know what they're up against, it's a little hard to judge people.
> What's Willow supposed to do, use a dark magical research spell?
It's exactly what the show demonstrates that it is: the fear is
understandable, but they have to be able to rely on her in a pinch, and
they can't. Buffy has made tremendous use of her entire arsenal in the
past, but she's getting a little short on reliable weapons just now:
Willow's afraid to use magic, things with her source of wisdom and
advice are tense, Spike's fighting poorly and still has the trigger, and
the rest either don't have power or only have theoretical power. Just
when Buffy needs all the weapons she can get, she's finding that the
ones she thought she had can't be wielded.
BUFFY
Oh, I don't know. It's just—the First is coming, and then look at us:
the army. We've got a bunch of fighters with nothing to hit, a Wicca who
won't-a, and the brains of our operation wears oven mitts.
Andrew is the brains of her operation? I guess that shows where things
are between Giles and Buffy, huh? And for that matter, it adds another
layer to Buffy and Willow.
> Before we pass anything by to continue that thought, though, there's
> the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
> physical posturing.
It sticks out because the overt 'roid-rage male posturing and
chest-puffing is something we don't often see on this show...and when we
do, it almost always leads to chaos. Angel/Riley, Giles/Ethan...this
can't end well.
> And Spike's mind is presumably sending him
> conflicting signals about standing his ground like a man (especially in
> front of a potential target of both guys' affections), wanting to
> show proper guilt over his past, and trying to be convincing in
> asserting that the soul does change things. It's an intense moment,
> with the old but useful trick of pairing innocuous dialogue with
> delivery and mannerisms that convey something different.
One of the interesting points to ponder here and in "First Date" is
whether Buffy's tension around the two of them is just due to the
potential romantic overtones, or whether it's immediately obvious to her
that Spike is the one who killed Wood's mother. The way it was portrayed
last episode (in the car on the way to the school), I concluded the
latter. The way it's being portrayed here, she's being awfully cavalier
about something that could be potentially devastating -- making an enemy
out of a needed ally -- if it came out. Which makes me think that she's
*not* aware of the connection.
> I'd wonder
> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots
Seniority, and she's already shown that she's far more trained and
prepared than the others. It makes a limited amount of sense. Where it
doesn't is in the confrontation with Chloe, which just adds to the
evidence that Kennedy can be a dislikable character, but also sets up a
hierarchy that I'm not sure is healthy for the group of potentials. Here
and elsewhere in the episode, Buffy may be taking the "general vs. army"
metaphor too far.
> The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
Agreed.
> The show has a
> room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
> unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time.
Yes, fairly unjustifiably. But -- and I think there are some connections
to your beloved "Dead Man's Party" confrontation -- there are core
elements of truth as well; essential points that need to be made to spur
the gang into something other than mere existence. She's not really
wrong about most of what she says, she's just doing it in the least
helpful way. She eventually gets what she wants, but at what further
cost to an already damaged group dynamic?
I think, too, there's an element that follows from Giles' rant last
episode. She may not have acknowledged it, but I think she's taken it to
heart...and it has been reinforced by Wood's recent
encouragement...which is why it comes out here.
Some thoughts on this conversation, which seems important even outside
its obvious narrative impact:
BUFFY
Chloe was an idiot. Chloe was stupid. She was weak. And anyone in a rush
to be the next dead body I bury, it's easy. Just...think of Chloe, and
do what she did. And I'll find room for you next to her and Annabelle.
This isn't really all that different from what she was teaching in
"Potential" (or, for that matter, "Lessons"), it's just expressed more
harshly. It's a step back from the reinforcement of "Potential," though,
which is why it's probably doomed to have the opposite effect.
BUFFY
I'm the slayer. The one with the power. [...] I've been carrying you —
all of you — too far, too long. Ride's over.
This is interesting, because it sorta goes against everything else she
says ("I use my power," etc.). Add to this:
BUFFY
Well, from now on, I'm your leader as in "do what I say."
She's asserting her control because she's "the one with the power," but
she's asking -- or rather, ordering -- everyone else to use their
power...the power that she's just finished claiming gives her the role
of leader. There's a disconnect. It seems that Buffy is missing
something important here, or maybe drawing the wrong conclusion from the
available evidence.
KENNEDY
You're out of line! [...] You're gonna let her talk to you like that?
Willow, she's not even the most powerful one in this room. With you
here, she's not close.
Here's Kennedy, being obnoxious again. She is *not* a good choice for
drill sergeant. But notice that here's yet another person who has become
part of the core group and yet has a less than wonderful dynamic with Buffy.
BUFFY
The First isn't impressed. It already knows us. It knows what we can do,
and it's laughing. You want to surprise the enemy? Surprise yourselves.
Force yourself to do what can't be done [...]
That's good advice, actually. Really good advice. Maybe Buffy should
listen to it.
BUFFY
Fine. Take a cell phone. That way, if I need someone to get weepy or
whaled on, I can call you.
That's really, really harsh ("you always hurt the one you love, pet"),
especially after Spike objected to sharing personal details with Wood.
But not untrue. He's been useless as a fighter more often than not
(except when he's fighting for the First, that is). He *is* holding
back. Like just about everything else, her accusation is too
harshly-expressed, but it is *not* (as you put it) unjustified.
> It would seem that
> here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
> based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
Notice how passive Willow is in this scene? Everyone else (that speaks)
registers some sort of objection. Not Willow. She vocally agrees, even
though it's not clear that she really does.
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
> initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
> out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
It's a technique they've used on the show before: putting the thing that
needs learning in the mouth of the person who needs to learn it. As I
noted above, this speech is about the rest of the gang, but it's also
about Buffy. It achieves both those aims while moving a third farther
down the board...the tension and discontent amongst the "army" that
seems to coalesce around Buffy. It's a jarring, unpleasant scene, but I
think it's fairly brilliantly conceived.
> Rather abruptly, a glowy portal appears, and Buffy immediately jumps
> into it and has mystical experiences. Um, okay.
You rarely respond well to these sorts of things, so I didn't really
think you'd like this one either. A shame, really, because it's
absolutely vital for both this season and the overal series' arc and
mythology.
> The whole trip to see the ancients
Not just ancients. They made and controlled the Slayer. That makes them
Watchers...the first Watchers.
> [it] comes across as pretty random and confusing
Strange. I found it extremely clear, perhaps even a little too overt.
But, as I said, these sorts of things seem to really not be in your
wheelhouse, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
> The black shadow-thing trying to get into Buffy
Demon essence.
> There's also a lot of fairly overt imagery related to sex
At least you didn't miss that. ;-)
There's so much in this scene:
SHADOW MAN
You are the hellmouth's last guardian.
That, right there, is awfully significant. It tells you how the story --
though not necessarily the series -- will end.
SHADOW MAN
We cannot give you knowledge. Only power.
This is especially interesting, given that these guys are
proto-Watchers. Watchers give knowledge, right? That's what we've always
been led to believe. But here, it's suggested that the knowledge is (and
maybe has always been) of a specific but limited kind: "knowledge is
power," etc. Which isn't wrong. But power is not the only solution to
problems, nor are the expressions of power restricted to physical feats
and knowledge. In reality, the Shadow Men are admitting that they don't
have what she needs, that they can only give her more of what they've
already given her (which hasn't worked so far, and given the nature of
the First is unlikely to ever work). This ties directly into Buffy's
relationships with her Watcher and with the Council, but also with her
relationship to the entire Slayer mythology. She's rejected and
re-embraced and re-rejected and re-re-embraced (and may be
re-re-rejecting again) her own Watcher, and she's rejected and
ultimately taken a certain amount of control over the Watchers' Council,
but this is showing her that the answer she's seeking does not lie in
anything that she's previously known. The traditions of the Watchers and
the Chosen that they protect and nurture (but also created and control)
have to be put aside. And where does that leave her? In a scary new place.
Thankfully, she's been prodded all season -- and really, since
"Restless" and "Buffy vs. Dracula" -- to think hard on the nature of
Slayerhood. Maybe she's about ready to start coming to some conclusions.
SHADOW MAN
We are at the beginning. The source of your strength. The well of the
slayer's power.
...which turns out to be a demon's essence. And thus, all the hints and
speculation about whether or not the Slayer's power is somehow rooted in
darkness (which have been re-emphasized this season) come to fruition.
They're all true. That is yet another shocking revelation, even though
they've been hinting at it for a long while.
SHADOW MAN
The First Slayer did not talk so much.
...making the misogony angle fairly overt (though the demon rape
sequence that follows leaves little doubt), and doing even further
damage to any credibility the Watchers may ever have had.
SHADOW MAN
Herein lies your truest strength.
SHADOW MAN
The energy of the demon. Its spirit.
SHADOW MAN
Its heart.
BUFFY
This is how you —
SHADOW MAN
Created the slayer? Yes.
That has got to be a very depressing thought. It confirms fears that she
has sometimes vehemently denied. She doesn't have time to be despondent
at the moment, but talk about seeing your entire foundation destroyed in
an eyeblink.
SHADOW MAN
This will make you ready for the fight.
BUFFY
By making me less human?
SHADOW MAN
This is how it was then. How it must be now.
SHADOW MAN
This is all there is.
Compare this with Buffy's statement last episode, about how you can't
fight evil by doing evil. Remember who she said it to: her Watcher, who
has (arguably) done that very thing, and successfully as well. And here,
the proto-Watchers are telling her that they must do, and she must
accept, evil to fight evil. That's a very important connection.
As for the aforementioned demon rape scene, it's the part that I think
is overplayed. The unbelievably horrifying information behind it -- that
the creation of the Slayer, and the entire Slayer line, are the result
of what amounts to rape -- gets obscured by the obviousness of the
metaphor. They could have toned down the visuals and played up what they
mean to, I think, greater and more shocking effect.
BUFFY
No, you don't understand! You violated that girl, made her kill for you
because you're weak, you're pathetic, and you obviously have nothing to
show me.
(Probably deliberate) echoes of her two confrontations with the Council.
And so, in one scene they give us the payoff for an entire series of
hints and contemplations regarding the true nature of the Slayer. And
they very forcefully reveal their hand: the old traditions and modes of
thought are over, because they've been revealed as evil...and we've
recently learned that Buffy doesn't intend to fight evil by being evil.
Buffy, as she almost always does, is going to have to find a new way.
But this time, a *really* new way.
DAWN
It says you can't just watch, you have to see.
No more Watching. And "see," of course, also means "understand." Buffy,
at long last, understands the problem. Whether or not she'll ever see a
solution...
> Also unfocused, and it's unclear whether the confusion is deliberate
> or not, is the way that the group directs all of its efforts
> single-mindedly towards the vanished Buffy and nothing else; needing
> her is what spurs them to become what she seemed to want.
??? It's very clear. They won't act, she forces them to act. Though
again, it puts them in a submissive role to Buffy...which is normal,
sort of, but also perhaps not the best of all possible outcomes.
> This idea
> that Spike and the others were all missing a step until now in terms of
> violence and capacity for action doesn't really work for me. What I
> mean is that the show makes its argument pretty clearly, but it bothers
> me - why is, say, showing caution out of concern for Anya such a bad
> thing to be doing?
It's been making this argument all season, so it certainly doesn't come
out of the blue. The thing with Willow has been very clearly developed
since her return. Anya doesn't have powers anymore, but she does have
knowledge. The one thing she actually accomplished, she had to be forced
to do by Giles...and then Giles was the one who made it happen anyway.
Mostly, she sits around making sarcastic comments...look at the
episodes, see for yourself.
With Spike, it's not just caution for Anya. Spike has been holding back
(and usually getting his ass kicked) in too many of his fights. Again,
go back and look, see for yourself. There's nothing inherently wrong
with showing caution for Anya, but that's not something that the Spike
we knew would ever have done. He would have fought anyway, win or lose.
Again, Buffy needs a fighter that's not so cautious. (She also needs one
without the trigger, and she herself has been uncautious in this regard,
but that's a different issue.)
> Willow's sequence has a lot going on in it. It's too busy for me
> to call it particularly successful, given that it's easy for the
> first-time viewer to miss some of the details...
Were you somehow distracted while watching this episode? Very little
here was unclear on first viewing. There are deeper meanings to be
gleaned, sure, but the basics of the Willow mini-arc are all pretty
upfront and obvious. What did you feel you missed the first time 'round?
BUFFY
It means I have to go in there.
WILLOW
No, it doesn't! Where does it say that? It doesn't say that!
Willow's afraid, because she knows where this is going.
KENNEDY
Willow! Use your magic. Send him back!
WILLOW
Um, trying.
(and she gets knocked across the room) There's a parellel to Spike here.
When Willow acted out of instinct in "Selfless," she was immediately
effective. Here, she's acting tentatively, and achieves nothing. In
other words, the black-haired, veiny Willow is actually more useful.
Which we eventually see.
---
WILLOW
We need Buffy.
XANDER
You gotta get her back. Looks like it's spell'o'clock.
ANYA
Which spell? I mean, didn't you see that thing? And you expect to reopen
the portal without sending Willow off the deep end?
WILLOW
Thanks for your support.
ANYA
Well, it's true. We're going to have to find another way.
WILLOW
There isn't, and Buffy knew it. I've got to get her back.
---
She finally accepts what she needs to do. Forced into it, by Buffy. But
then...
---
WILLOW
I-I-I don't even know what magic to use.
KENNEDY
Why not just try all 32 flavors. Worst thing that happens is you go
brunette.
WILLOW
That's not the worst thing that can happen.
ANYA
She's right. And you know we have a choice. We can risk Willow's life
and the rest of our lives to get Buffy back, or we leave her out there.
PRINCIPAL WOOD
If we play it safe back here, Buffy could stay lost.
ANYA
You missed her "everyone sucks but me" speech. If she's so superior, let
her find her own way back.
---
Now she's scared again, flailing, lost. Even Anya's suggestion that they
leave Buffy there doesn't prompt her to object.
---
DAWN
Willow, how would you get Buffy back?
WILLOW
That's what I'm saying—I don't even know.
DAWN
OK, but if another witch was to do it, where would she start?
WILLOW
Uh, physics, principles, basic laws...
DAWN
Such as?
WILLOW
Uh, conservation of energies. You can't really create or destroy
anything, only transfer.
Anya scoffs.
DAWN
I'm sorry, are you helping?
ANYA
No, but at least I'm not galloping off in the wrong direction.
WILLOW
Magic works off physics.
ANYA
Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies,
you need some kind of conduit.
WILLOW
Like a-a Kraken's tooth.
ANYA
Yeah, skin of Draconis, um, ground up Baltic stones, something...
---
Dawn's (nicely done) attempt to ground her, and Anya's abrasiveness,
eventually get her back on track.
---
WILLOW
No, I don't think we should wait right now. Opening a portal this size
could take days.
---
She's underestimating her power, and of course the portal opens almost
immediately...at some cost to both her and the people nearby. Yet again,
her magic is simultaneously effective and destructive.
---
WILLOW
Via, concursus, tempus, spatium, audi me ut imperio. Screw it! Mighty
forces, I suck at Latin, OK? But that's not the issue. I'm the one in
charge, and I'm telling you open up, portal, now!
---
Evil Willow is effective where regular Willow is not. Xander tries to
stop her from getting worse, but she energy-sucks Anya and Kennedy and
finally opens the portal. Xander then "rescues" her.
And then, later, Willow feels nothing but guilt and remorse when talking
to Kennedy. But to Buffy:
---
BUFFY
Thanks for bringing me back. Again.
WILLOW
Well, that's what I do.
BUFFY
I was hard on you guys today.
WILLOW
Aw, it's all right. You needed to be.
---
Now, maybe she means this and maybe she only sort of does, but here
she's reaching a tentative sort of acceptance that they need her magic,
and she's just going to have to pay the cost (of turning brunette and
slightly evil) in order to help.
All pretty straightforward and onscreen.
There's something else that could definitely be missed, though: Willow's
arc was somewhat the opposite of Buffy's. Buffy rejected the evil source
of her power. Willow seems to be accepting that she must embrace it, at
least a little bit. And Spike, as well, had to embrace the strong,
brawling vampire in him. Yet Buffy wouldn't make that choice.
> In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer
Again, they've been talking about this fairly overtly since "Restless,"
so it's nice to see them finally paying it off.
> There's the notion that in the making of a
> person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> "violated." Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
> of the MC50?
Probably not the best time to tell them something like that, eh?
But...well, hold on to this thought for a while.
> Also something that hadn't occurred to me before but
> makes sense as a possibility: that for whatever reason, the slayer line
> could end with Buffy.
It was pretty baldly stated as a possibility by one of the Shadow Men.
If that's in fact what he was saying. Old guys in the desert are *so*
cryptic.
> Finally, I notice that in response to another "it's about power"
> prompt, we see Buffy rejecting power as a solution, albeit wondering if
> it was a mistake. Ultimate meaning? Not entirely clear yet, at least
> to me.
No, still not clear. But clearing. We hope.
A few other thoughts, since this is getting awfully long:
BUFFY
The hellmouth has begun its semi-annual percolation. Usually, it blows
around May.
That's kind of ham-handed: explicitly tying the Hellmouth to the end of
the high school year. Especially when the show has been out of high
school for the majority of its run (I don't count season seven, despite
the promise of the early episodes).
BUFFY
I-I don't know what to say.
PRINCIPAL WOOD
Try saying, "Thank you, Principal Wood."
BUFFY
Thank you, Principal Wood.
The way they play this scene, I think he'd better have some more papers
drawn up.
PRINCIPAL WOOD
Buffy tells me you have been, um—oh, how shall I put it—experimenting.
(Willow's eyes grow wide; she casts a "you said what?" glance at Buffy)
With the magicks.
Isn't it a little late in the day to be doing "it sounds like I'm
referring to your orientation or sex life, but I'm really not" jokes
with Willow? And yet, there have been several so far this season.
> AOQ rating: Decent
For me, this is very close to Excellent. It's not in the very top tier,
but it's close enough...maybe right on the border between good and
excellent. In the context of the season, it's one of my favorite action
episodes (vs. something like "CwDP," which is another sort of episode,
but also a favorite).
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
> (or "I mean, it just seems to me as if things are looking
> slapped-together faster than we thought." "We're a little ahead of
> schedule.")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
.
I never liked the title of this episode. It always reminds me of the
season seven haters who thought that ME was just going through the motions
by this point.
> Before we pass anything by to continue that thought, though, there's
> the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
> physical posturing. Thankfully, the former hasn't run off in some
> kind of insane rampage, but he's playing his knowledge and plans
> close to the vest. And Spike's mind is presumably sending him
> conflicting signals about standing his ground like a man (especially in
> front of a potential target of both guys' affections), wanting to
> show proper guilt over his past, and trying to be convincing in
> asserting that the soul does change things.
About the guilt, Spike probably feels some (it's unclear how much), but he
never seems willing to show it to *anyone* except maybe Buffy. I think
it's mainly a pride thing, plus he probably thinks Buffy is the only one
who might forgive him.
Great joke of the week: "I like to think of myself more as a 'guest-age.'"
Though technically Andrew is just a prisoner, not a hostage. Anyway, it's
nice to see that he is finally committed to Buffy's team, even if still
only in an ineffective fantasy sort of way with his Big Board.
> The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
Yep. And the sudden discovery of Chloe's body, just as Dawn was having a
laugh while teasing Buffy, was great. (My grandmother used to have a cat
named Chloe, who lived to be 19 or 20 -- years longer than the Potential
of that name.)
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch.
It's hard to say if Buffy is trying out a tough-love generalship strategy
here, or simply losing her temper. Maybe both. Although this is more of
a one-sided rant than an argument, it's strongly reminiscent of the
classic arguments in episodes like Revelations and Selfless, when neither
side is wholly right or wrong. You can understand Buffy's desperate
worry and frustration manifesting as anger, and you can also understand
how this is *not* a good way to motivate most of her army. But unlike
those great arguments of yore, Buffy's rant leaves me feeling a little
unfulfilled afterwards. What, exactly, is Buffy trying to say? Aside
from venting her feelings, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot there.
"Do what I tell you, and work harder" is about the sum of it. But the
scene still works as an illustration of Buffy's emotional state at the
moment, and as a plot device (prodding Willow and Spike to get more
active). If greater significance was intended, it isn't clear yet.
Speaking of which: what exactly could Spike have done but failed to do
over the past few episodes? I don't think he's really been "holding back"
on anything. (Except for strutting around like a frat boy trying to look
like a gangsta rapper. He *had* cut back on that for a while, until now.
I guess ME figured we'd want to see Spike get back in touch with his inner
macho thug by this point in the season.)
I don't like this Slayer Emergency Kit that ME suddenly pulled out of
wherever. Wood says it would have been handed down from Slayer to Slayer,
but I can't see how that would work unless the Watchers Council handled
the handing, and if that was the case then we should already have heard of
it from Giles, Wesley, et al.
> The shadowplay puppet show works just as a visual device. It's wacky
> and different enough to be intrinsically unsettling.
That was a great, creepy sequence. But I have problems with what it leads
us to. For one thing, I don't like the whole portrayal of the Slayer's
creation as a symbolic rape. Intellectually, I can agree that the
Slayer's power can be good even if its creation was bad; but on a gut
level, it repels me. It's kind of like my problem with Anya's pre-demon
personality in Selfless: even if you can convince me that it perfectly
fits the story's logic and theme, I still just don't *like* it. I don't
want the hero to have been created by an evil act. It would probably work
better if we knew more about the Shadow Men, about their motivations, the
moral dilemmas that they might have faced, and about the limits of their
magical powers. As it is, the creators of the Slayer line are just nasty
for undefined reasons, or maybe because males with power are always nasty.
No sir, I don't like it.
> terms. There's also a lot of fairly overt imagery related to sex
> (both meanings of the word) in this whole sequence that I won't
> recount at length, since the heavier pseudo-feminist metaphorical tone
> has never added anything to my enjoyment of the show.
Agreed. While feminist metaphors are good, as metaphors go, what I really
love the show for is Buffy and the other characters as individuals, not
elements in a metaphor. And this is the other problem I have with the
Shadow Men: they wind up as one of the heavier, clunkier, more obvious
metaphors that we've seen in years. The "you're only men" and "it's
always the staff" lines made me wince. And showing us a bunch of nasty
males is a pretty shallow form of feminism, to boot. It should be about
empowering women, not portraying one sex as inherently good and the other
bad. The Shadow Men sequence isn't quite "Two Xs good, one X bad! Two Xs
good, one X bad!" but it tends in that direction.
Guvf trgf rira jbefr va Raq bs Qnlf, jura gurl unir gb oevat va n tebhc bs
tbbq jbzra gb pbagenfg gb gur onq zra. Ohg ba gur bgure unaq, V unir ab
ceboyrz ng nyy jvgu Pnyro. Vg'f cnegyl orpnhfr Pnyro vf cynlrq ol Pncgnva
Erlabyqf, bs pbhefr. Ohg Pnyro vf nyfb zber cnyngnoyr guna gur Funqbj Zra
orpnhfr ur pbzrf npebff nf n zvfbtlavfgvp crefba, engure guna n Fgngrzrag
Nobhg Cngevnepul.
There was also a small but annoying contradiction in that the Shadow Men
say that they can only give Buffy power, not knowledge, but then end up
giving her a bit of knowledge anyway. (Plus, knowledge is power, right?)
> of the MC50? Also something that hadn't occurred to me before but
> makes sense as a possibility: that for whatever reason, the slayer line
> could end with Buffy. I suppose it says something about the series's
> skill that I was also buying into the notion that this was something
> eternal. Hey, it's the last year, challenge everything we know.
For that matter, it's not impossible that the good guys will really LOSE
this time....
TIRSBILA:
"It's okay. We'll just start with what we know, and take it from there."
"Great, so far we know jack about squat. Let's go from there."
> AOQ rating: Decent
Although Buffy's rant wasn't completely satisfying and I didn't care for
what they did with the Shadow Men, I think the episode as a whole was very
well put together. I'd give it a high Decent or low Good.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Forcing a duty onto someone isn't rape. Many (if not all) states impose
a duty on their citizens to intervene if they become aware of child
abuse, even if doing so puts the citizen in danger themselves.
Is having that duty forced upon you without your consent tantamount to
rape?
We all have various duties imposed upon us by the mere virtue of
existing in society. No one asks us if we want them and society doesn't
care if we don't. It's just the way it is.
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> One of the interesting points to ponder here and in "First Date" is
> whether Buffy's tension around the two of them is just due to the
> potential romantic overtones, or whether it's immediately obvious to her
> that Spike is the one who killed Wood's mother. The way it was portrayed
> last episode (in the car on the way to the school), I concluded the
> latter. The way it's being portrayed here, she's being awfully cavalier
> about something that could be potentially devastating -- making an enemy
> out of a needed ally -- if it came out. Which makes me think that she's
> *not* aware of the connection.
As far as Buffy knows, Wood is from Beverly Hills, not New York, so
she's got no reason to connect him with the Slayer Spike killed there.
Scythe Matters
> As far as Buffy knows, Wood is from Beverly Hills, not New York, so
> she's got no reason to connect him with the Slayer Spike killed there.
How do you suppose all the viewers who instantly figured it out, did so?
They don't have any more information than she does. She could have
reached the same conclusions for the same reasons.
hayes62
Actually they do because the audience got to see Nicky where Buffy
would only have heard Spike describe her. And he said she was hot but
never mentioned that she was black.
Scythe Matters
> Actually they do because the audience got to see Nicky where Buffy
> would only have heard Spike describe her. And he said she was hot but
> never mentioned that she was black.
It's true that there's no proof she knows, but this also presumes
extensive lack of interest on her part. Which wasn't her mindset in the
episode in question.
William George Ferguson
We the viewers have much more information than Buffy on the subject. One,
we actually saw the New York/Subway Slayer, Buffy only heard a much
bowdlerized (with corroberative detail to lend verisimilitude to an
otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative) version from Spike in Fool For
Love. It's made pretty clear that what he tells Buffy and what we actually
see are two different things. Another thing, this is an important and
memorable experience for us, especially the Spikaholics and Spuffistas,
than it would be for Buffy. We get a lot of symbolic stuff with the duster
while to Buffy, it's just Spike's coat.
Another aspect is that we automatically apply Checkov's Law and the Law of
Conservation of Characters when we are watching, something that in real
life Buffy wouldn't be doing.
Nothing above prevents Buffy from 'getting it'. She does intuit a lot of
non-obvious stuff, and has the Slayerdreams(tm) subtly guiding her, and
occasionally hitting over the head with a two by four when 'subtle' doesn't
work. Still nothing points heavily to her 'getting it' and without
Slayerdream(tm), there's really no likelihood that she will spontaneously
figure it out ("Wood's mother was Slayer?, Hey, Spike killed two Slayers,
she must have been one of them!")
Scythe Matters
> Still nothing points heavily to her 'getting it'
Nor did I say or imply there was. I said it's inconclusive, I think it's
played (in "First Date") like there might be a recognition, and I think
it's played in "Get It Done" like there's not. Of the three available
data points -- black, the dates (given Robin's age), and the (as you put
it) Chekov-like inevitabilty (which actually doesn't apply here, but
never mind) that Spike must have killed this Slayer -- she could know
all, some or none of those things and reach the right, wrong or no
conclusion. We simply don't know.
Zber dhnfv-"rivqrapr" gung fur zvtug fhfcrpg: ure trareny ynpx bs fubpx
be fhecevfr jura fur neevirf ng Ebova'f va "YZCGZ." Vg'f abg yvxr fur
rire rkcerffrf flzcngul, juvpu zvtug or angheny haqre gur pvephzfgnaprf
unq fur whfg ernyvmrq gur gehgu. But again, while it's inconclusive and
certainly can't be proven, it's interesting to speculate on her actions
and motives if she does suspect.
Stephen Tempest
>> I'd wonder
>> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots
>
>Seniority, and she's already shown that she's far more trained and
>prepared than the others. It makes a limited amount of sense. Where it
>doesn't is in the confrontation with Chloe, which just adds to the
>evidence that Kennedy can be a dislikable character,
True. What it said to me, though, is that she's been watching _Full
Metal Jacket_ too many times, and was heavily into the roleplaying.
It's pretty obvious she was having fun, and probably assumed the rest
of the Potentials were seeing it the same way.
Hence the particularly horrifying nature of Chloe/The First's comment
to her, telling her _she_ was responsible for Chloe's suicide.
>KENNEDY
>You're out of line! [...] You're gonna let her talk to you like that?
>Willow, she's not even the most powerful one in this room. With you
>here, she's not close.
>
>Here's Kennedy, being obnoxious again. She is *not* a good choice for
>drill sergeant. But notice that here's yet another person who has become
>part of the core group and yet has a less than wonderful dynamic with Buffy.
What I'm seeing there is an extremely fierce loyalty to her new lover,
coupled with a willingness to call out self-proclaimed authority
figures when she thinks they're talking crap. Neither of which, in my
opinion, are bad qualities... although I agree you can fault her
immaturity for not realising - unlike Willow, who does get it - that
Buffy's not wrong.
>PRINCIPAL WOOD
>Buffy tells me you have been, um...oh, how shall I put it...experimenting.
>(Willow's eyes grow wide; she casts a "you said what?" glance at Buffy)
>With the magicks.
>
>Isn't it a little late in the day to be doing "it sounds like I'm
>referring to your orientation or sex life, but I'm really not" jokes
>with Willow? And yet, there have been several so far this season.
C'mon. That was much more than you imply. It was clearly an "it sounds
like I'm referring to the possibility of hot Buffy-on-Willow action,
but I'm really not" joke.
Which they really *haven't* been making this season, unfortunately....
Stephen
Jeff Jacoby
Buffy is a pretty good hero, leading by example ("Follow me!").
She's a pretty bad commander, leading by decree ("You! Go take
that hill!"). She'll do much better when she realizes she should
stick to her strengths.
Jeff
jil...@hotmail.com
specifically to your comments. Buffy has been driving herself to
exhaustion trying to protect, fight and teach the girls who haven't had
any training to at least defend themselves. A HOUSE FULL OF PEOPLE and
The First was able to talk Chloe into killing herself! Buffy can't
even sleep at night without that sort of thing going on.
YOU, AOQ, have been noting Spike going down fairly easily the last few
episodes. Nothing Buffy complained about was not true. Just quite
loud and enraged.
And Kennedy is the oldest of the Potentials, with the most actual
training under her belt and the pushy personality to drive them.
One Bit Shy
news:B8mdnVxFsb7FI7vY...@rcn.net...
I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his mother
was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time that
could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire Slayer
killer like Spike.
So, I'd expect serious suspicion, even if it's not direct knowledge.
Be that as it may, I personally don't see a lot from her that tells me she's
figured it out, so I tend to go with the show's intent being that she hasn't
figured it out.
OBS
Stephen Tempest
>Buffy is a pretty good hero, leading by example ("Follow me!").
>She's a pretty bad commander, leading by decree ("You! Go take
>that hill!"). She'll do much better when she realizes she should
>stick to her strengths.
Considering she's only 22 years old and has had neither training nor
experience in formal command situations, I don't think she's
_particularly_ bad at it. Nor does she currently have the support
structure, such as efficient NCOs (no, Kennedy doesn't count) that
real-life military commanders can rely on.
Stephen
Arbitrar Of Quality
> there are slayers and watchers
> dawn might well become a watcher
> if she lives long enough
Heh, that's an entertaining thought. The Watcher system has previously
been shown to be a matter of either destiny or heredity (or both).
Maybe if everyone survives, they could start over with a less
inept/power-crazed volunteer group.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
hayes62 wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > emerge when showing Wood around the place, and feeling inadequate in
> > front of the hot older guy, going off about how this isn't
> > "enough," and even starting to lose patience with the wicca who
> > know what they're up against, it's a little hard to judge people.
> > on-edge and worried, okay, I'm with the show up to there.
>
> be partly mystical but it's also expressing her worries about all the
> things she's been missing while assuming the First was in remission
> and the most pressing problem seemed to be whether her boss had wicked
> energy. Soon she'll find out that what they had wasn't peace but
> cold war and that's what the First does best. TTFN
Okay, I can run with that, thanks.
> The Shadowman sequence goes back to the beginning in more ways than
> one. To me it strongly recalls Buffy's original response to Giles
> reminding her of her calling in WttH:
>
> "Why can't you people leave me alone?"
>
> Thinking about it doesn't every Slayer's story begin with a strange
> man turning up and forcing a short and brutal destiny on her?
Well, some of the Watchers were women.
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> BUFFY
> Oh, I don't know. It's justthe First is coming, and then look at us:
> the army. We've got a bunch of fighters with nothing to hit, a Wicca who
> won't-a, and the brains of our operation wears oven mitts.
>
> Andrew is the brains of her operation? I guess that shows where things
> are between Giles and Buffy, huh? And for that matter, it adds another
> layer to Buffy and Willow.
Or maybe it was just a bit of gallows humour.
> > I'd wonder
> > about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots
>
> Seniority, and she's already shown that she's far more trained and
> prepared than the others. It makes a limited amount of sense. Where it
> doesn't is in the confrontation with Chloe, which just adds to the
> evidence that Kennedy can be a dislikable character,
Or just got a bit carried away. And it came back to bite her in the arse
big time. Pretty typical BtVS fayre.
> but also sets up a
> hierarchy that I'm not sure is healthy for the group of potentials.
*puzzled* An army without a command structure is not much of an army.
Rule one: make experience count.
> KENNEDY
> You're out of line! [...] You're gonna let her talk to you like that?
> Willow, she's not even the most powerful one in this room. With you
> here, she's not close.
>
> Here's Kennedy, being obnoxious again.
No she isn't. She is standing up for her girlfriend. And she's not
wrong. Trouble is, neither is Buffy.
> Notice how passive Willow is in this scene?
Beware the fury of a patient Wicca....
> the black-haired, veiny Willow is actually more useful.
Apart from the whole could destroy the world part. Black haired veiny
Willow is dangerously single-minded : she would quite casually destroy
the village in order to save it.
Probably best to remember that.
--
What does not kill me makes me stronger. Unless it leaves me as a quadriplegic.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > The whole rape analogy never really held up for me if for no other
> > reason than because of girls like Faith. Buffy may have resented her
> > calling at first but Faith wholeheartedly embraced it. Faith saw it as a
> > gift, a way out of the miserable and hopeless "normal" life she was
> > leading, and for the first time in her life felt like she mattered.
> > So if the show is going to compare a Slayer's calling to rape, then the
> > logical conclusion is that some of the victims actually enjoy being
> > raped. Not quite what they had in mind, I think.
>
> Which is why, like the show, I quite deliberately stuck with calling it
> by the broader term,violation.
If TV writers read Usenet, they'd never do rape metaphors.
-AOQ
Jeff Jacoby
I'm not implying her leadership has to be along
strict military lines. And given her age, you're
right, it's not terribly bad.
But this is shaping up as the biggest fight of her
life. So given the lack of experience at command
leadership, and the relative lack of an appropriate
support structure as you note, now is the time to
do what she does best: be a hero.
Jeff
Arbitrar Of Quality
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
> >theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
> >business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
> >was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
> >changes everything).
>
> 'Slayer' or not - I wouldn't read anything into it.
>
> The shooting script, on the other hand, very definitely capitalises
> 'Slayer' every time it appears in this episode.
That makes me feel better. It feels like it should get a capital.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
> news:B8mdnVxFsb7FI7vY...@rcn.net...
> > William George Ferguson wrote:
> >
> >> Still nothing points heavily to her 'getting it'
> >
> > Nor did I say or imply there was. I said it's inconclusive, I think it's
> > played (in "First Date") like there might be a recognition, and I think
> > it's played in "Get It Done" like there's not. Of the three available data
> > points -- black, the dates (given Robin's age), and the (as you put it)
> > Chekov-like inevitabilty (which actually doesn't apply here, but never
> > mind) that Spike must have killed this Slayer -- she could know all, some
> > or none of those things and reach the right, wrong or no conclusion. We
> > simply don't know.
> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his mother
> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time that
> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire Slayer
> killer like Spike.
>
> So, I'd expect serious suspicion, even if it's not direct knowledge.
>
> Be that as it may, I personally don't see a lot from her that tells me she's
> figured it out, so I tend to go with the show's intent being that she hasn't
> figured it out.
Maybe she should have, but I can accept that it just didn't occur to
her, especially given the point WGF already made about viewers' sense
of parsimony vs. characters'. I don't see anything in either episode
that suggests to me that either Buffy or Spike has thought of the
possibility.
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his mother
> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
> killed Slayers.
Dru....
(I know, I know)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
theres also drusilla
its a fair bet most vampire slayers were killed by vampires
and there could be twenty slayers or more between nicky and buffy
no particular reason for her to guess
there could be a hundred or more slayers in spikes unlife
and again no particular reason for him to guess
robin was related to one in particular
> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time that
> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire Slayer
or if he has been drawn to hellmouths wicked energy
theres no indication that he has been stalking specific vampires
just doing what damage he could
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
usenet is mindrape
Arbitrar Of Quality
William George Ferguson wrote:
I know it'[s rude to quote a big block of text like this without
contributing much of note, but I think that's a good explanation. My
problem is that the show then seemingly goes on to justify her words,
showing all these people getting their groove back after she tells them
to. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of unpleasant
behavior having positive results, it just bothers me as portrayed here.
Maybe the show will explore ways in which bringing out the Dark in
Willow or the nastier side of Spike might have their own problems. I
hope so.
So, given her refusal to take the power from her shadowy friends and
the talk about violations, why does the show seem to suggest that she's
"right" to try to force her friends to do the same thing? Again, I
hope the dissonance is deliberate - we'll see what the show makes of
it.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Clairel wrote:
> By the way, AOQ, what did you think of the musical accompaniment to the
> getting-the-coat-in-the-high-school-and-exchanging-terse-dialogue-with-Wood
> scene?
Me? Notice music? I seem to remember it fitting the scene, but that's
about it. Will comment next time I watch...
> --Just Decent, eh? That seems to mirror the lack of enthusiasm that
> was felt by most viewers back when the episode first aired. I was
> always surprised by that, because it seemed to me the episode was
> giving viewers what they had always wanted -- a lot more information
> about Slayer origins and Slayer mythology. Of course, poor execution
> can make any sort of content seem disappointing. But I didn't think
> this episode was poorly-executed, aside from the one silly detail of
> The Coat being at the high school. Overall I thought the episode was
> very well done, and I'm hard put to understand the "eh" reaction that
> so many viewers give it.
[shrug] Maybe it's that the mythology is presented in such a surreal
imagery-heavy way without a thorough grounding in rhyme and reason that
turned people off. Especially since to me, some of the metaphors are
hopelessly vague and some are annoyingly blunt. I just don't think
it's one of the show's more successful dream-or-something-like-it
sequences of the many it's done.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-1DF36...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <12idopn...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
>> mother
>> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
>> killed Slayers.
>
> Dru....
>
> (I know, I know)
Shit. I forgot. Duh.
One Bit Shy
news:mair_fheal-04CB1...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
>> mother
>> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
>> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
>
> theres also drusilla
Yeah, that slipped my mind. None the less, it's not something she's heard
much tale of.
> its a fair bet most vampire slayers were killed by vampires
> and there could be twenty slayers or more between nicky and buffy
> no particular reason for her to guess
I don't think it's a fair bet. If Buffy's experience is anything to go by,
vampires are relatively easy to handle. She's faced many far tougher foes -
including some she couldn't beat. Especially not if she had to do it alone
as we are led to believe most Slayers must.
> there could be a hundred or more slayers in spikes unlife
> and again no particular reason for him to guess
> robin was related to one in particular
Spike told Buffy about the two he killed. She's smart enough to figure out
that the last one was recent enough to potentialy be Wood's mother.
>> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time
>> that
>> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
>> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire
>> Slayer
>
> or if he has been drawn to hellmouths wicked energy
>
> theres no indication that he has been stalking specific vampires
> just doing what damage he could
Other than the observable fact that the two of them are in the same place
when Spike's known to have killed Slayers and Wood is known to have the
motivation to find a Slayer killing vampire.
I'm not saying that the info is sufficient to establish the fact. Just that
there's enough potential that it ought to make her wonder. Starting with
that I don't know how it would be possible for Buffy not to think of Spike
when Wood talks of a vampire killing his mother. Any mention of any vampire
Slayer killer anytime would make her think of Spike. He's the one she knows
intimately. He's the one living in her house right now.
OBS
Jeff Jacoby
Possibly Angel, too:
drusilla: My little Spike just killed himself a Slayer.
angel: Congratulations. I guess that makes you one of us.
Enigmatic and very inconclusive, but it makes you wonder.
In any case, he apparently never said anything one way or
the other about it to Buffy.
Jeff
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-04CB1...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
> >> mother
> >> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
> >> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
> >
> > theres also drusilla
>
> Yeah, that slipped my mind. None the less, it's not something she's heard
> much tale of.
>
>
> > its a fair bet most vampire slayers were killed by vampires
> > and there could be twenty slayers or more between nicky and buffy
> > no particular reason for her to guess
>
> I don't think it's a fair bet. If Buffy's experience is anything to go by,
she got staked with her own stake
and that was at her strength and four years of experience
both buffy and kendra were hypnotized and killed
very early in their careers
George W Harris
wrote:
:mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
:<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
:news:mair_fheal-04CB1...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
:>> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
:>> mother
:>> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
:>> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
:>
:> theres also drusilla
:
:Yeah, that slipped my mind. None the less, it's not something she's heard
:much tale of.
Yeah, but she knows there have been hundreds
of slayers, all killed by something or other, and since
they're called *vampire* slayers, it'd be a shock if many or
most of them weren't killed by vampires. There's no reason
to think it must've been Spike that killed Wood's mother.
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
> news:B8mdnVxFsb7FI7vY...@rcn.net...
> > William George Ferguson wrote:
> >
> >> Still nothing points heavily to her 'getting it'
> >
> > Nor did I say or imply there was. I said it's inconclusive, I think it's
> > played (in "First Date") like there might be a recognition, and I think
> > it's played in "Get It Done" like there's not. Of the three available data
> > points -- black, the dates (given Robin's age), and the (as you put it)
> > Chekov-like inevitabilty (which actually doesn't apply here, but never
> > mind) that Spike must have killed this Slayer -- she could know all, some
> > or none of those things and reach the right, wrong or no conclusion. We
> > simply don't know.
> >
> > Zber dhnfv-"rivqrapr" gung fur zvtug fhfcrpg: ure trareny ynpx bs fubpx be
> > fhecevfr jura fur neevirf ng Ebova'f va "YZCGZ." Vg'f abg yvxr fur rire
> > rkcerffrf flzcngul, juvpu zvtug or angheny haqre gur pvephzfgnaprf unq fur
> > whfg ernyvmrq gur gehgu. But again, while it's inconclusive and certainly
> > can't be proven, it's interesting to speculate on her actions and motives
> > if she does suspect.
>
> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his mother
> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
> killed Slayers.
Most Slayers are killed by vampires. Buffy spent an evening reading
accounts of Slayers killed by vampires. Buffy herself has come very
close to being killed by vampires, on multiple occasions. (One time was
so close that another Slayer got called because of it.)
> I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time that
> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire Slayer
> killer like Spike.
>
> So, I'd expect serious suspicion, even if it's not direct knowledge.
It may have crossed her mind, but she never says anything about it. She
may have dismissed any suspicions she may have had because:
1) Spike killed his Slayer in New York, and Wood said he's from Beverly
Hills.
2) Wood also said that he'd given up on looking for the vamp that had
killed his mother. He never said anything about having followed that
vampire to Sunnydale. (Since, in fact, he hadn't. He had no idea that
the vampire who had killed his mother had come to Sunnydale too, until
the First told him.)
> Be that as it may, I personally don't see a lot from her that tells me she's
> figured it out, so I tend to go with the show's intent being that she hasn't
> figured it out.
Jura fur qbrf svaq bhg, fur rkuvovgf ab fvta gung gur arjf vf n fhecevfr
gb ure.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-04CB1...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the
> >> time that could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where
> >> Spike is - right where he ought to be if he's looking for some
> >> vengeance on a vampire Slayer
But she also thinks that Robin is from Beverly Hills, while Spike killed
his second Slayer in New York.
> >
> > or if he has been drawn to hellmouths wicked energy
> >
> > theres no indication that he has been stalking specific vampires
> > just doing what damage he could
>
> Other than the observable fact that the two of them are in the same
> place when Spike's known to have killed Slayers and Wood is known to
> have the motivation to find a Slayer killing vampire.
But he says that he has quit looking for the particular vamp that killed
his mother:
Oh, man, I went through this whole avenging son phase in my 20s,
but I never found him. So now I just dust as many of them as I
can find and figure eventually I'll get him.
If you want to kill a lot of vamps, Sunnydale is the place to be.
> I'm not saying that the info is sufficient to establish the fact.
> Just that there's enough potential that it ought to make her wonder.
> Starting with that I don't know how it would be possible for Buffy
> not to think of Spike when Wood talks of a vampire killing his
> mother. Any mention of any vampire Slayer killer anytime would make
> her think of Spike. He's the one she knows intimately. He's the one
> living in her house right now.
Back in "Fool for Love" Buffy spends half a night with Giles,
researching vamps who killed Slayers, before it occurs to her to go talk
to Spike. Most Slayers get killed by vampires, so there are probably a
lot of vampires around that have killed Slayers. Most of them are just
vamps that got lucky, like that vamp at the beginning of "Fool for Love"
nearly did.
Given that Wood himself doesn't show any sign that he knows which
vampire was responsible, until the First clues him in, then Buffy would
probably figure that whichever vamp got Nikki, it was just one of the
ones that got lucky. (Sebz Tvyrf' ernpgvba va YZCGZ, vg jbhyq frrz gung
vg vf jryy xabja nzbat gur Jngpuref gung vg jnf Fcvxr jub jnf
erfcbafvoyr. Pebjyl cebonoyl uvq gung vasb sebz Jbbq, orpnhfr ur xarj
gung Ebova jbhyq unir ab punapr tbvat hc ntnvafg Fcvxr.)
William George Ferguson
[snip a lot]
>> Underneath Buffy's 'Everyone sucks but me', was 'I suck'. Buffy has nevr
>> handled a personal failure to protect others well (see WotW for the classic
>> example). She failed to protect Chloe, even with a Slayerdream(tm)
>> forewarning, and she has to know that others of these teenage girls that
>> she has taken responsibility for are going to be killed, in fact she will
>> probably send some of them to die. She isn't handling it well at all,
>> emotionally.
>
>I know it'[s rude to quote a big block of text like this without
>contributing much of note, but I think that's a good explanation. My
>problem is that the show then seemingly goes on to justify her words,
>showing all these people getting their groove back after she tells them
>to. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of unpleasant
>behavior having positive results, it just bothers me as portrayed here.
>Maybe the show will explore ways in which bringing out the Dark in
>Willow or the nastier side of Spike might have their own problems. I
>hope so.
>
>So, given her refusal to take the power from her shadowy friends and
>the talk about violations, why does the show seem to suggest that she's
>"right" to try to force her friends to do the same thing? Again, I
>hope the dissonance is deliberate - we'll see what the show makes of
>it.
See, even on first viewing, as you can probably tell from my post, I
didn't take it that we were supposed to think that Buffy was right (or at
least completely right) in her speech. It's pretty self-evident that this
isn't the same kind of successful motivating speech she gave in Bring On
The Night, or at the end of Showtime. This one wasn't 'come on gang we
can do it' it was, as Anya so accurately described it, 'Every one sucks
but me.'
I don't think I've mentioned it before in these threads, but it is
something I talked about back when the show was in first run: Buffy really
is a bully. She manhandles people who aren't cluefull, who get in her
way, or who just annoy her, because she can. There are examples even in
season 1, and there are real classics in season 2, like casually putting
Larry up against the wall in Halloween, or when Willow was looking up
possible student suspects to be the werewolf in Phases
BUFFY: So what's the scuttlebutt? Anybody besides Larry fit our werewolf
profile?
Willow: There is one name that keeps getting spit out. Aggressive
behavior, run-ins with authorities, about a screenful of violent
incidents.
Buffy (without even looking at the screen): Okay, most of those were not
my fault. Somebody else started 'em. I was just standing up for myself.
Willow: They say it's a good idea to count to ten when you're angry.
Buffy: One... Two... Three...
(Willow hurriedly changes the subject)
The thing is, Buffy being a bully is acceptable, because she mostly
(though not always) restricts herself to bullying bad guys or quasi-bad
guys. Here, she is lashing out at the good guys, because violence, both
physical and verbal, really is Slayer Comfort Food, and she is in bad need
of some SCF (and doesn't have anyone available she can pummel).
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Don Sample
Or the exchange in "Inca Mummy Girl"
Buffy: I wasn't going to use violence. I don't always use violence.
Do I?
Xander: The important thing is: *you* believe that.
> The thing is, Buffy being a bully is acceptable, because she mostly
> (though not always) restricts herself to bullying bad guys or quasi-bad
> guys. Here, she is lashing out at the good guys, because violence, both
> physical and verbal, really is Slayer Comfort Food, and she is in bad need
> of some SCF (and doesn't have anyone available she can pummel).
--
Mel
hayes62 wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
>
>>In article <1160126232....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
>> "hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>>>The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
>>>>her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
>>>>it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
>>>
>>>I think before writing Buffy off as a bitch it's worth noting that
>>>Chloe isn't the first dead little girl she's seen. Dreams apart
>>>there was Annabel, then Eve and before that Cassie. And the Katrina,
>>>potentially Dawn and long long ago the Deputy mayor.
>>
>>Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think the deputy mayor was a
>>dead little girl.
>
>
> Not to impugne the guys' masculinity or anything but can we go with
> metaphorical dead little girl, I believe the technical term is damsel.
>
>
>
>>>>In its muddled and non-thrilling way, the episode gets back to our
>>>>theme, somewhat abandoned last year amidst the post-resurrection
>>>>business, of exploring the nature of what it means to be the slayer (I
>>>>was a bit startled to see it not capitalized in the subtitles. This
>>>>changes everything). There's the notion that in the making of a
>>>>person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
>>>>"violated." Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
>>>>of the MC50?
>>>
>>>The Shadowman sequence goes back to the beginning in more ways than
>>>one. To me it strongly recalls Buffy's original response to Giles
>>>reminding her of her calling in WttH:
>>>
>>>"Why can't you people leave me alone?"
>>>
>>>Thinking about it doesn't every Slayer's story begin with a strange
>>>man turning up and forcing a short and brutal destiny on her?
>>
>>The whole rape analogy never really held up for me if for no other
>>reason than because of girls like Faith. Buffy may have resented her
>>calling at first but Faith wholeheartedly embraced it. Faith saw it as a
>>gift, a way out of the miserable and hopeless "normal" life she was
>>leading, and for the first time in her life felt like she mattered.
>>So if the show is going to compare a Slayer's calling to rape, then the
>>logical conclusion is that some of the victims actually enjoy being
>>raped. Not quite what they had in mind, I think.
>
>
> Which is why, like the show, I quite deliberately stuck with calling it
> by the broader term,violation.We don't know how Faith initially reacted
> to being called because it was never shown and I'm talking very
> specifically about that initial response to the responsibility. Buffy
> accepts her calling eventually just as in GiD she accepts that the
> Shadowmen may have been right. Returning to Faith, once in Sunnydale
> she embraced the skills and strength part of her calling but was less
> enamoured of the one girl in all the world bit, the duty to save people
> like Finch or her Watcher. So if you going to use the rape analogy, and
> to make it even dodgier, yes Faith likes sex but that doesn't mean she
> enjoys it in the context of being raped.
>
But think of how Faith views sex...get it and get out. No commitment at
all. Which is kind of how she views slaying...all the power she could
want, with no responsbility attached.
Mel
William George Ferguson
Buffy doesn't have a competent Top Kick, as you note, but she does have a
really competent Executive Officer. We see XO Dawn handle the logistics,
including maintaining the armory, relaying Buffy's orders, organizing the
others at Buffy's direction, and, as Willow and Anya engage in their
little backbiting, brings the pieces together to accomplish her
commander's objective.
William George Ferguson
In terms of things coming back to bite Kennedy in the ass, nobody has
mentioned the one that bit her in the ass after all her bragging and
exhorting on Willow's magic mojo.
Willow: "Hey, you ok? You've been kind of quiet since..."
Kennedy: "You sucked the life out of me?"
Willow: "Yeah, since then. Look it's important that you understand what I
am, what I'm like when I'm, like that."
Kennedy: "I thought it would be, I don't know, cool somehow. It just
hurt."
So maybe Kennedy gets, now, why Willow doesn't want to do the major magic.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
Because their power is already inside them, a part of them, whereas what
the Shadowmen would do to her comes from outside.
Mel
Scythe Matters
> It's pretty obvious she was having fun, and probably assumed the rest
> of the Potentials were seeing it the same way.
Yes. She's incredibly self-absorbed. Not bad, not good, just accurate.
> Hence the particularly horrifying nature of Chloe/The First's comment
> to her, telling her _she_ was responsible for Chloe's suicide.
The First is being manipulative and evil, but again: it's not entirely
without a point. No, Kennedy didn't cause Chloe's suicide. But she
didn't help, either. It would be interesting to see if Kennedy learns
anything from that exchange. (Bets, anyone?)
> What I'm seeing there is an extremely fierce loyalty to her new lover,
> coupled with a willingness to call out self-proclaimed authority
> figures when she thinks they're talking crap. Neither of which, in my
> opinion, are bad qualities... although I agree you can fault her
> immaturity for not realising - unlike Willow, who does get it - that
> Buffy's not wrong.
I don't fault the immaturity, which is expected. I fault the assertion
of equal status. She hasn't earned the right to make such a strong
statement. She should certainly object (to not do so would be out of
character), but she simply doesn't know enough to say what she's saying,
and she needs to be shut down harder than she is. Remember that she
still has no real idea of what Willow and magic really mean (though the
episode will teach her). I'm quite certain Willow hasn't said "I'm the
most powerful person here," leaving the most likely source for Kennedy's
belief in Willow's superiority as Buffy, the person she's in the process
of calling out. And, as you say, she's not recognizing the truth in what
Buffy's saying. I just don't think she has earned a right -- both within
the narrative and viewed from outside -- to be particpating in the
particular way she's participating. As a participant in the narrative,
it would bug me (that is: were I Buffy, I'd be keeping a hairy eyeball
on Kennedy from now on, and probably would have smacked her down even
harder). As a viewer, I think: "hey, you don't understand enough for
this to concern you, please shut up, and why are you intruding on a
narrative that really requires the core group?"
I think there may be a meta-misunderstanding of how I view Kennedy here.
I don't like the character, but I think the character is well done. I
don't like the Willow/Kennedy pairing, but I think it's portrayed well
given the foundation the writers have built. And I'm not one to object
in perpetuity when I don't like a character turn or pairing, which is
why you won't read me bitching about Spuffy past its initiation (though,
thankfully, I wasn't posting at that particular point) even though I
don't really think much of its depiction until this season. The show is
what it is, and once a choice has been made I prefer to accept that it
has been made and move on from there. Objecting to the Buffy 'n' Spike
show seems pointless...a thing I tried to impress on AoQ back in the
Cordelia=bad & Wesley=bad days. It's what we've got. If I can't get past
it, better to not say anything at all. Here, it's the same: Kennedy is
who she is, and I accept that, but I will object when I think her
behavior is outside even her own decidedly broad boundaries. In this
episode, there are several instances of that.
> C'mon. That was much more than you imply. It was clearly an "it sounds
> like I'm referring to the possibility of hot Buffy-on-Willow action,
> but I'm really not" joke.
> Which they really *haven't* been making this season, unfortunately....
Would you like the room for another night, Stephen?
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-04CB1...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>
>>>I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
>>>mother
>>>was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
>>>killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
>>
>>theres also drusilla
>
>
> Yeah, that slipped my mind. None the less, it's not something she's heard
> much tale of.
>
>
>
We don't know what exactly she read in the Watcher diaries before going
to see Spike in Fool For Love. She said the details were missing, but
probably what killed the Slayers was mentioned even if no explanation
for the why and how was given? It seems very unlikely that Spike (and
Dru) are the only vampires to ever kill Slayers. They were just more
well-known than most and had made a name for themselves.
Mel
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>>>mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time
>>>that
>>>could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
>>>where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire
>>>Slayer
>>
>>or if he has been drawn to hellmouths wicked energy
>>
>>theres no indication that he has been stalking specific vampires
>>just doing what damage he could
>
>
> Other than the observable fact that the two of them are in the same place
> when Spike's known to have killed Slayers and Wood is known to have the
> motivation to find a Slayer killing vampire.
Buffy doesn't know Wood ever lived in New York. He told her he was from
Beverly Hills.
Mel
Scythe Matters
> Or maybe it was just a bit of gallows humour.
You know, yes it is...but it's impossible to think of the show in almost
any other season calling anyone but Giles (or Willow) the brains of
the operation. If it doesn't say something within the narrative, it at
least says something external to the narrative about the writers'
current conception of Giles. That is, it's revealing no matter what the
intent.
> *puzzled* An army without a command structure is not much of an army.
> Rule one: make experience count.
Rule one alpha: the potentials are not going to follow Kennedy when
everything goes to hell, unless Kennedy herself changes. Kennedy won't
even follow Giles. Kennedy abandons the team to pursue her whims. She's
rebellious and unreliable; which doesn't mean she's not a terrific
(potential) fighter. But she's exactly the wrong person for a position
of authority within a hierarchy. Make the sergeant Giles, or Wood...or
hell, even Dawn at this point. Kennedy has elements of early-season
Buffy, and even a more stable Faith, in her. That's not the direction
that Buffy is currently taking this crew. She needs them disciplined for
what she's apparently working on up to now.
Which is not to say that any of this is what Buffy should be doing.
> No she isn't. She is standing up for her girlfriend. And she's not
> wrong. Trouble is, neither is Buffy.
Yes, she *is* being obnoxious. One can stand up for one's S.O. and still
be obnoxious doing it. Buffy certainly has experience in this regard.
And as I've said, she might not be wrong but she has no possible way of
knowing that for herself, aside from what Buffy's told everyone.
Received wisdom is not the same as wisdom.
> Apart from the whole could destroy the world part. Black haired veiny
> Willow is dangerously single-minded : she would quite casually destroy
> the village in order to save it.
Yes. But that appears to be what Buffy wants right now. Spike is willing
to play with fire (his demon plus his trigger) to do what she wants.
Willow is too. Both do what she wants (even as she refused to do what
she's asking them to do). She wants useful. It's probably not a wise
wish, but it is the wish on the table. But maybe, post-"Get It Done,"
she'll have a different perspective.
Scythe Matters
> I'm not saying that the info is sufficient to establish the fact. Just that
> there's enough potential that it ought to make her wonder. Starting with
> that I don't know how it would be possible for Buffy not to think of Spike
> when Wood talks of a vampire killing his mother. Any mention of any vampire
> Slayer killer anytime would make her think of Spike. He's the one she knows
> intimately. He's the one living in her house right now.
You know, to me that's the most likely reason that she might make the
connection (which, let me make it clear, I'm not saying that she
definitely did). Her mind really should go there...and if it doesn't,
she's being foolish, especially given the still-extant trigger. I almost
wonder if the writers were unsure on this point in "First Date," and
then decided that she didn't make the connection in "Get It Done." But I
sure have trouble with Buffy's jumpiness (not in a vacuum, but paired
with Wood's overt suspicion and the way the entire threesome scenes are
played) if she doesn't at least suspect. Yet in the following episode
("Get It Done," not "LMPTM"), there's no sign that she might suspect.
That's why I think there may have been indecision, or even a mind change.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160176648.5...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> > there are slayers and watchers
> > dawn might well become a watcher
> > if she lives long enough
>
> Heh, that's an entertaining thought. The Watcher system has previously
> been shown to be a matter of either destiny or heredity (or both).
> Maybe if everyone survives, they could start over with a less
> inept/power-crazed volunteer group.
>
>
Or *maybe* except for a few rare good apples such as Giles or Wesley,
Watchers are evil to the core and have been brought up to be male
chauvinists (maybe not Lydia); and perhaps unbeknownst to Giles and Buffy,
the surviving Watchers are trying to re-group without Buffy.
I'd like them evil and more evil than the "Stooges". They are evil men in
suits with a pleasant disposition. They speak in tongues of nobility,
cloaking their missions in the banner of saving the world from apocalyses.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Scythe Matters
> My
> problem is that the show then seemingly goes on to justify her words,
> showing all these people getting their groove back after she tells them
> to.
That's an imcomplete reading, though. Yes, she gets Spike to fight more
like the old Spike...and yes, she gets mojo out of Willow (albeit
somewhat unpleasantly-achieved magic). But the damge to the group
dynamic may trump anything she achieved. And I really don't think that
point is lost on anyone, except perhaps her. She's unquestionably
one-against-the-world in her own mind here, and though she begs (through
accusation) for help, she's clearly not exploring how that help might be
useful except on an ad-hoc basis.
It's as I said earlier: she's right in almost everything she says, but
she does it in a sufficiently destructive way that the eventual outcome
is likely to be worse than the existing situation.
> Maybe the show will explore ways in which bringing out the Dark in
> Willow or the nastier side of Spike might have their own problems. I
> hope so.
I would instead assume that the show is going to explore how Buffy's
attitude and experiences here affect both her and the group. Or not. But
that's what I'm expecting. You're viewing the entire lecture from too
singular a perspective. View it objectively, from the outside; don't get
into Buffy's (or Willow's, or Xander's, or Spike's) head. Almost
everyone speaks truth (except maybe Spike), which is fascinating because
what they say is so frequently in opposition to each other.
> So, given her refusal to take the power from her shadowy friends and
> the talk about violations, why does the show seem to suggest that she's
> "right" to try to force her friends to do the same thing? Again, I
> hope the dissonance is deliberate - we'll see what the show makes of
> it.
You're close, but I think you're still dancing around the edges. She's
not forcing her friends to violate anyone (that Willow does is not
entirely predictable, except maybe to Willow), nor is she asking them to
"take power" from anyone or anything. She's asking them to -- pardon the
cliché -- think outside the box, and in the process use what they
already have. The former of which she does here, but the others do not.
Instead they re-enter old roles: Willow with the magic, Spike with the
violence, Xander with the scolding. Buffy rejects the offered
"traditional" solution, which puts her one step ahead of the others, but
she doesn't offer an alternative solution. Which, again, is why I say
this is an example of putting the lesson that needs to be learned in the
mouth of the person who needs to learn it. "Everyone sucks but me," yes
-- and not without merit -- but as many have pointed out, "I suck" is a
meta-message, and she's the only one that's not openly challenged to
change that perception. That is, her challenge is known to us, but not
to the group. If she's going to change in response to her
less-than-inspiring speech, she's going to do it on her own.
Scythe Matters
> apocalyses.
Is that the plural? ;-)
(Harmony) Watcher
"Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
> > apocalyses.
>
> Is that the plural? ;-)
I heard it has been since the 1600s, :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
One Bit Shy
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
You surprised me here. I had to think back to when I first saw this, and
yeah, I thought the Shadow Men were kind of obscure and overloaded with
fraught symbolism that I didn't completely get. And, yeah, I had trouble
tracking what Buffy thought she was doing with her big speech - especially
with the seeming contradictions.
On the other hand, the directed turn around in performance by Willow, Spike
and Anya kind of obviously illustrated Buffy's main point. And, meanwhile,
there's some damned exciting and beautifully staged stuff with Willow and
Spike that gets me pumped every time I watch this episode. I thought for
sure you'd at least respond to the big show of Spike's back, and you do not
want to mess with him. Hmmm. Well, let's see where this goes.
OFV - The moment that struck me the most was when Willow suddenly reached
back and snatched a boost of power from Kennedy and Anya. Made me gasp.
That's one of the Series great enduring images for me personally.
> Love the Anya/Spike nit that opens the show proper. Adore it. Well,
> my complaint about how it doesn't make sense for D'Hoffryn to be
> sending demons to kill Anya still stands,
I agree. As best as I can tell, the entire purpose of these assassins is to
explain why Anya is in Buffy's house - for protection. They probably show
up again this episode because Anya will be challenged as to what she's doing
there. Though that's a little dumb, since Buffy knows. Buffy's the one who
brought her there. I wish another reason had been used, though, because I
feel that it walks over one of Selfless's dramatic moments. But you don't
want to send me down that path. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut about
the ways I think Selfless has been walked upon.
> but otherwise, just about
> everything about it, funny and serious, is spot-on. Maybe the writers
> only throw these two together once in awhile to make sure it seems like
> a special treat.
Nice scene - but you know I like Anya. I was thinking how that gal has no
hips though. Didn't stop me from noting how hot she was.
I also wonder where she got the good education she speaks of. Sunnydale
High?
Anya refers to "Slayer Central", which can be a useful name for the Summers
house this season.
Anyway, aside from the humor, I think the things to note are that Anya is
unhappy, having doubts about being human, and horny. Her post-Selfless
foray into humanity on her own doesn't seem to be going too well. Has she
found her identity? Oh, her job is to provide much needed sarcasm. (Which
she evidently stole from Xander.) Just a little subtlety to add to Buffy's
pointed question of why Anya was there.
> After a slayerdream, and a visit from the first slayer (totally called
> her appearance),
"It's not enough." (Maybe that should have been the title of the episode.)
The phrase gets repeated a few times and obviously applies to the episode a
number of ways. But what was the first Slayer talking about? Not enough
power to beat The First is clear enough, but what power?
Initially it would seem to be a message pointing Buffy towards the Shadow
Men so she can get her power boost. I'm not so sure that's it though.
Considering what they offer, it's limitations, and the fact that the first
Slayer is the one who was first chained before them, perhaps she's telling
Buffy that the Slayer power isn't enough. Power boost or not.
> Buffy seems changed. The frustration first starts to
> emerge when showing Wood around the place, and feeling inadequate in
> front of the hot older guy, going off about how this isn't
> "enough," and even starting to lose patience with the wicca who
> won't-a. Given that they don't really have an enemy to fight or
> know what they're up against, it's a little hard to judge people.
> What's Willow supposed to do, use a dark magical research spell? But
> on-edge and worried, okay, I'm with the show up to there.
What she's supposed to do isn't the point at all. (You seem to be
channeling the defensive gang recoiling from Buffy's outburst.) She doesn't
know what yet. But she knows that she's going to need a lot of power
sometime, and isn't happy with what's available. The point with Willow is
that right now she can't be relied on because she's too reluctant - too
scared - to really use her power. That's a serious gap in Buffy's arsenal.
It's not just the dream that changes Buffy's attitude. She's also
responding to the previous episode's outburst from Giles. (Who's missing
from this episode. Personally, I think the biggest problem with the Giles
character this season is the limited screen time.) There's also the
reappearance of The First in First Date. And just the process of showing
Wood around is bringing home how little she really has.
> Before we pass anything by to continue that thought, though, there's
> the non-confrontation between Wood and Spoik, accompanied by a lot of
> physical posturing. Thankfully, the former hasn't run off in some
> kind of insane rampage, but he's playing his knowledge and plans
> close to the vest. And Spike's mind is presumably sending him
> conflicting signals about standing his ground like a man (especially in
> front of a potential target of both guys' affections), wanting to
> show proper guilt over his past, and trying to be convincing in
> asserting that the soul does change things. It's an intense moment,
> with the old but useful trick of pairing innocuous dialogue with
> delivery and mannerisms that convey something different.
I enjoy this scene for the three different perspectives. Wood with his
secret knowledge about his mother and seething inside, quietly goading
Spike. Spike, starting with a good attitude, then getting caught of guard
and confused by Wood's attitude, but being Spike, not one to back off.
(Also a bit peeved that Buffy told him about the soul.) And Buffy standing
there watching, she thinks, a testosterone match between rival boyfriends.
> Having the MC50 doing military drills continues to develop the idea of
> Buffy's little army, which I suppose is meant to set up the final
> shot. "That's not'n army! *This* is'n army!" I'd wonder
> about what Kennedy did to be in charge of all the other maggots, but I
> kinda forgot to care. Are they all supposed to be living in the one
> house?
LOL! Yes, they're all living in the one house. (One bathroom too.) Didn't
you see the floor littered with sleeping little Potentials? But then this
is the season where the number of characters gets a little out of hand.
It's easy to lose track.
Yes, the two armies are probably being compared, though more broadly they're
part of Buffy's overall inventory of weapons - which isn't enough.
Kennedy is the natural choice for sergeant because she's older, better
trained, and tough. She is also, incidentally, the one person there who
appears not to be holding back. Presumably Buffy recognized that by
choosing her for that role. Which I would guess is also why she tolerated
the maggot bit. It's kind of a shame that she found herself at odds with
Buffy later, but she's Willow's girl, so it probably can't be helped.
Otherwise, I suspect she'd be the one most in tune with Buffy's attitude.
My memory of the upcoming episodes is fuzzy enough not to be sure, but I
think this is Kennedy's finest episode. She goes through a few things here.
Her early enthusiasm about drilling the soldiers is taken down a serious
notch when The First assigns her some of the blame for Chloe's suicide.
(Maggot) She gets wounded by the demon. ("Just hurt. Don't make a case out
of it.") And she gets some life sucked out of her by Willow - a rather
graphic lesson in what Willow's capable of. None the less, she proves
herself courageous and tough. She doesn't hesitate going after the demon,
shrugs off her injury, and is ready to go after him again, even though she
clearly wasn't strong enough. And she is steadfastly encouraging to Willow,
showing nothing but confidence in her abilities as Willow works up the
courage for her spell. (Of course Kennedy does pay a penalty for that.)
Her final scene with Willow has some double poignancy to it, as it shows
Kennedy finally realizing what Willow's power really means, and having
doubts about what she's gotten herself into. At the same time Willow sees
what the power is taking from her and is saddened by it, knowing now that
she really has no choice.
Again, the idea of Kennedy has substance to it, even if one isn't thrilled
with the performance of it.
> The First appearing to everyone as Chloe while standng right next to
> her swinging body? Evil. Which would be a good trait, given that
> it's a villain and everything. The actor does a good job here.
You know, this is the sneeringest villain we've had. I think this may be
moustache twirling Snidely Whiplash.
> Okay, now's the time to get back to the thought I was trying for
> earlier. In her State Of How Much You Suck Address, Buffy doesn't
> seem like the character we know affected by restlessness and worry.
> She seems, again, transformed, and genuinely a bitch.
She's angry and lost her patience. But it's still an extension of what we
saw in Selfless and what's been going on with her through the season. I
would submit that she's gotten older and has gotten tired of hanging out
with kids. Another way of looking at this is her snapping at them to grow
up.
Oh, and she can be bitchy and scolding. Ask Dawn.
> The show has a
> room full of people maintain an awed silence as she fairly
> unjustifiably rips into everyone, one at a time.
Can't agree with you there. It may not be the best choice of method (though
it does generate results), but I think she's completely justified.
What's not fair is that she doesn't include herself in the berating. She
dreamed of Chloe and didn't act upon it - even though she knows Slayer
dreams have meaning. She has to ramp up her performance too.
However, that doesn't make it wrong to do what she did with this speech.
She knows her part with Chloe. She went out and buried her alone as part of
her penance and got a bit weepy there to boot. Internally she's already
focused on the seriousness of this game. Now it's their turn.
> It would seem that
> here we're meant to sympathize with those being yelled at, especially
> based on the wounded facial expressions, which everyone does well.
Nobody likes to be berated. I suppose we're supposed to sympathize to a
point. We're certainly supposed to be surprised - just as they are. But
this has distinct limits. The episode goes to some pains to demonstrate
that people had indeed been holding back. Nobody's exactly going to be
happy about what all happened in the end, but they'd be fools not to see how
accurate her complaint was.
> Especially Spike, who gets hit by one of the less justified of the
> rant-lets.
Your kidding me. Haven't you seen his ass getting kicked of late? Didn't
you see the difference when he let his demon run free?
It's about the power. There's a very clear parallel being drawn between
Willow, Spike and Buffy. About how being the power has to include wielding
it. Buffy wields her power. They don't. Buffy is telling them that they
have to find a way to do it. And they do.
This is a huge episode - a breakthrough - for both Willow and Spike. And
it's because Buffy clearly saw the problem and made them fix it.
> And then our hero wants everyone to "do what I say."
> On the one hand, she wants them to be her drones, on the other she
> apparently expects independent contributions from everybody and the
> initiative to make themselves prepared, whatever that means. Talking
> out of both sides of her mouth, and I don't understand the portrayal.
> Everyone has momentary outbursts and takes their frustrations out on
> others, but this seems to be something more.
This is where Buffy runs awry, and considering how most people act, it'll
probably get her in trouble eventually. But it's a classic leadership
challenge. (Or management challenge for those in that field.) Motivating a
group of people to do what they need to do isn't always easy. Getting
people to truly internalize what it is, why it is, how urgent it is, and,
damn it, how badly they really need to get up and do it, is a something that
doesn't come naturally to many people. (Buffy is hardly a professional
motivational speaker.) It's doubly hard when the audience resists - doesn't
get it. Xander meant well, for example, but he was on the wrong track.
Willow got it from the start though - because she knew she was being
carried.
One of the things that can be very easy to fall into out of sheer
frustration is a just do it attitude. Sometimes the nonsense just gets to
be too much. That's what happened with Xander. Buffy didn't want to hear
the distraction he offered. And that's what she was responding to with, "do
what I say." Yes, I'm sure a mixed message of the sort you describe is what
got heard. Buffy isn't terribly skilled at this. But internally she's
thinking stop giving me this guff and get to work. She doesn't want drones.
She want them to stop being drones.
The flip side of a leadership challenge is the follower challenge. One of
the worst things they can do is get in the mode of doing nothing but what
they're told. Xander's assumption is just wrong and caused as much trouble
as Buffy's imprudent response. Following commands doesn't mean freezing
without them. Nobody can do it alone - not even Buffy - and that's very
much the point of this exercise.
Another follower challenge is not to demand the impossible from the leader,
though a challenge frequently not met. It shouldn't take too much brain
power to recognize that Buffy's idea of inspirational talks has distinct
limits. But it also should be recognized - by clear demonstration - that
she was right in content.
> The shadowplay puppet show works just as a visual device. It's wacky
> and different enough to be intrinsically unsettling. Seems like Dawn
> is rapidly taking over as the scholar of the group. She also has a
> bunch of good lines this week (the speech about her plans for school,
> ancient Sumerians not speaking English, etc.).
I fear that a good part of this is finding something for her to do. Which
means taking things away from Willow and Giles. Some of the same dynamics
are going on with Anya and Andrew stealing people's functions. Too many
people.
I happened to be looking at your WTTH review recently and noted your
description of Giles as an exposition-fountain. That came to mind this
espisode when I saw Dawn filling that role as she described elements of
Willow's spell and read from the Sumerian text.
Dawn does a very nice job in her role this episode anyway. I think she's a
stitch teasing Buffy just before finding Chloe. And I love her snap at Anya
that gets Anya to contribute.
> Rather abruptly, a glowy portal appears, and Buffy immediately jumps
> into it and has mystical experiences. Um, okay. This seems
> reminiscent of past dream-episodes like TWOTW, but here that's not
> much of the buildup that makes the trips to other worlds seem immediate
> and pertinent.
A first slayer dream followed by a magic contraption about creating the
first slayer isn't buildup? I don't understand your expectations. She's
searching for things that could help her and a bag of Slayer goodies shows
up and opens a portal. Seems pertinent to me.
> The whole trip to see the ancients ("and that's where
> we're going... right back to the beginning"), and Willow pulling her
> back out again, comes across as pretty random and confusing, and I'm
> having to lean on the transcript to even remember what happened. The
> black shadow-thing trying to get into Buffy makes me think someone
> played one too many games of _Ico_, if that's not a contradiction in
> terms. There's also a lot of fairly overt imagery related to sex
> (both meanings of the word) in this whole sequence that I won't
> recount at length, since the heavier pseudo-feminist metaphorical tone
> has never added anything to my enjoyment of the show.
Others have gone into this in some detail, and I'm pretty sure it'll have to
be revisited later anyway, so I'm not going to repeat all that.
I did want to say that I for one really enjoyed the special effect of the
demon essence. And just in general I like the visual feel of the visit to
the Shadow Men.
Speaking of the Shadow Men, much is made of the bad, bad thing they did.
Kind of built into the whole metaphor. But I like them myself. Much more
than the Watcher's Council. These are serious men, doing the best they know
how, which at least in the context of the first Slayer, was pretty
extraordinary. These were prehistoric primatives, presumably in a very
violent conditions and in desperate survival mode. They also, presumably,
were exploring new territory, attempting something nobody had done before.
In spite of Buffy's contempt for what they offer now, for the story to truly
make sense, they must have in their time been pioneers who achieved a kind
of greatness.
I don't want to go into the metaphor of patriarchy now - it's not complete.
But it doesn't necessarily have to be limited to the most obvious feminist
take.
> Also unfocused, and it's unclear whether the confusion is deliberate
> or not, is the way that the group directs all of its efforts
> single-mindedly towards the vanished Buffy and nothing else; needing
> her is what spurs them to become what she seemed to want.
What confusion? Buffy told them their job was to get her back. So that's
what they did.
> This idea
> that Spike and the others were all missing a step until now in terms of
> violence and capacity for action doesn't really work for me. What I
> mean is that the show makes its argument pretty clearly, but it bothers
> me - why is, say, showing caution out of concern for Anya such a bad
> thing to be doing?
It's not. Just as as what spell Willow was supposed to cast earlier wasn't
the point. The issue is that both of them are reluctant to tap their true
powers, and Buffy needs those powers. It's not about what they've done up
to now, but what they can be counted on to do in the future. They both got
pushed into seriously exercising their muscles and you haven't seen anything
like they produced this episode all season have you?
> Willow's sequence has a lot going on in it. It's too busy for me
> to call it particularly successful, given that it's easy for the
> first-time viewer to miss some of the details... as I can attest to,
> having watched that part twice. There's enough interesting stuff in
> it that I'm glad I did. I think thematically it echoes the past
> (Willow in charge but not in control, Xander being the one to pull her
> back, etc.) as much as it potentially speaks to the future.
I don't know what your struggle with this is. I love Willow's spell myself.
When she tells Dawn to put on some coffee and the magic suddenly explodes
and Willow lets out that howl, it makes me jump from my chair. I thought
the whole thing was pretty harrowing.
One thing I think is interesting is when she stops with the latin and just
starts ordering the magic what to do. This is a really good illustration of
what I've tried to describe a number of times about how Willow does magic.
How she isn't a spell caster so much as magic vessel. By this point, being
the magic. She even talks of not knowing what to do until she gets the
magicks up and running.
This is a big aspect of her power now. The implication of what she does
here - she has no specific knowledge of shadow men dimensions and portals;
no return Buffy to me spell - is that she can now direct raw magic to her
bidding. She doesn't have to know the mystical chants or whatever. It's
her will.
We've actually seen her do things like this before, but never quite so
blatently, easily, or powerfully.
> There's the notion that in the making of a
> person into a weapon, the original slayer and all others after her were
> "violated."
I don't go as far with the rape comparison as others seem to. I think
"violated" is chosen for more reasons than just being a softer word. But
again, I think this will be revisited. (I never much cared for the mind
rape term either.)
> Would she have said that if not for Chloe and the rest
> of the MC50?
I don't understand the question.
> Also something that hadn't occurred to me before but
> makes sense as a possibility: that for whatever reason, the slayer line
> could end with Buffy. I suppose it says something about the series's
> skill that I was also buying into the notion that this was something
> eternal. Hey, it's the last year, challenge everything we know.
On this you're way ahead of where I was when I first saw it. You are, of
course, quite correct that is a major possible implication of what the
Shadow Men said. But it's not the only possibility. When I first saw this
I totally thought it meant that the Hellmouth would get resolved one way or
the other. Or it could be both. Or it could mean the battle will move
somewhere else. Or The Slayer becomes something else. Kind of ambiguous
really. Oh, what do they know anyway. They're just men. <g>
> Finally, I notice that in response to another "it's about power"
> prompt, we see Buffy rejecting power as a solution, albeit wondering if
> it was a mistake. Ultimate meaning? Not entirely clear yet, at least
> to me.
Yeah, that's a thing alright. And so totally like BtVS to take the whole
episode one direction and then contradict it at the end.
Buffy's situation isn't quite the same as the others though. It's not like
she doesn't have power, and it's certainly not that she won't wield it.
Maybe a power boost would have helped - though I wonder if making her more
like the first Slayer would only further isolate her from the others and
ultimately weaken her. (Especially if she tries to grow her own
dreadlocks.)
I think the bigger message is the one we started with. It's not enough.
> Well, if nothing else we can say that the show has put a few of
> these concepts on the table for discussion.
Nothing else? Nothing else!?!?!?
Good lord, you didn't talk about Spike's big return at all. That was huge.
I absolutely love Spike's power walk. There hasn't been a power walk like
this since Buffy in Prophecy Girl. And getting the groove with the old
leather coat. Damn. Then the terrific encounter with Wood asking him where
he got the coat, followed by the zoom to Wood's face. (Remember, Wood only
had The First's word about Spike before. The coat is what confirms it. The
coat Spike took off his mother's body.)
Then Spike's glorious fight when the old bad boy we've really only seen in
ancient flashbacks comes out with a literal howl of joy. Well, I thought it
was exhilerating. Maybe the best Spike of the season so far.
This is important on another level than just getting his fighting mojo back.
Spike is now embracing his demon side - integrating it into his newly souled
self. Or to put it another way, not repressing it like Angel. (That fact
alone ought to please Spike.)
I think this suggests that Buffy thought this through more than obviously
shown, for Buffy has practical experience with souled vampires after all.
May even have figured out some where they go wrong. Maybe even in
relationship to The First...
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Okay.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Flat out Excellent for me. Second best of the season so far - and it might
stay there. The next couple episodes should answer that question. It's a
possible candidate for series top 10, but I'm not sure of that.
The only real criticism I have of the episode is a little annoyance at
Willow being so concerned about Kennedy and how she took energy from Kennedy
because she was the strongest one there --- when she also sucked the life
force from Anya. Poor Anya. She really took it on the chin this episode.
More broadly, I do understand some people's discomfort with the Shadow Men
scenes, though I'm pretty OK with them myself. Other than that, I'm with
Clairel this time in not really getting why an episode that I think just
crackles with energy gets such an uneven response.
OBS
Jeff Jacoby
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> My
>> problem is that the show then seemingly goes on to justify her words,
>> showing all these people getting their groove back after she tells them
>> to.
>
> That's an imcomplete reading, though. Yes, she gets Spike to fight more
> like the old Spike...and yes, she gets mojo out of Willow (albeit
> somewhat unpleasantly-achieved magic). But the damge to the group
> dynamic may trump anything she achieved. And I really don't think that
> point is lost on anyone, except perhaps her. She's unquestionably
> one-against-the-world in her own mind here, and though she begs (through
> accusation) for help, she's clearly not exploring how that help might be
> useful except on an ad-hoc basis.
>
> It's as I said earlier: she's right in almost everything she says, but
> she does it in a sufficiently destructive way that the eventual outcome
> is likely to be worse than the existing situation.
It's interesting to compare her behavior now with the
last time she invoked the "going to war" sentiment:
Graduation I and II, a time when she had even less
command experience.
Of course there are signficant differences (not least of
which is they had a better idea of what they were fighting,
a corporeal--though gigantic--demon). But there are a lot
of similarities, e.g. she's under tremendous stress from all
sides, physical as well as mental.
She was saying some of the same kinds of things ("You know
I do all this planing. I'm in charge here, even though I am
really not at my best"), but she was much less accusatory, in
both words and tone, much more into putting forth her ideas
and asking for suggestions on how to implement them ("So, am
I crazy?" followed by lots of brainstorming).
She did a better job of getting her followers to buy into what
she wanted them to do. She made them better and work harder
by building them up, not tearing them down ("I'm going to need
every single one of you on board.")
I think she'll get much less resentment and resistence if she
can get back to something akin to that leadership style.
Jeff
(Harmony) Watcher
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:n6ddi2d5cgvd4fhi7...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 15:26:27 -0400, Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
>
> >Don Sample wrote:
> >
> >> As far as Buffy knows, Wood is from Beverly Hills, not New York, so
> >> she's got no reason to connect him with the Slayer Spike killed there.
> >
> >How do you suppose all the viewers who instantly figured it out, did so?
> >They don't have any more information than she does. She could have
> >reached the same conclusions for the same reasons.
>
> We the viewers have much more information than Buffy on the subject. One,
> we actually saw the New York/Subway Slayer, Buffy only heard a much
> bowdlerized (with corroberative detail to lend verisimilitude to an
> otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative) version from Spike in Fool For
> Love. It's made pretty clear that what he tells Buffy and what we
actually
> see are two different things. Another thing, this is an important and
> memorable experience for us, especially the Spikaholics and Spuffistas,
> than it would be for Buffy. We get a lot of symbolic stuff with the
duster
> while to Buffy, it's just Spike's coat.
>
> Another aspect is that we automatically apply Checkov's Law and the Law of
> Conservation of Characters when we are watching, something that in real
> life Buffy wouldn't be doing.
>
> Nothing above prevents Buffy from 'getting it'. She does intuit a lot of
> non-obvious stuff, and has the Slayerdreams(tm) subtly guiding her, and
> occasionally hitting over the head with a two by four when 'subtle'
doesn't
> work. Still nothing points heavily to her 'getting it' and without
> Slayerdream(tm), there's really no likelihood that she will spontaneously
> figure it out ("Wood's mother was Slayer?, Hey, Spike killed two Slayers,
> she must have been one of them!")
>
Vs gur penmrq Qnan pbhyq qernz bs Avxxv'f qrngu ng gur unaqf bs Fcvxr va gur
fhojnl, V'q org Ohssl unq qernzg bs vg gbb. V guvax vg vf dhvgr cbffvoyr
gung Ohssl unq frra qernz synfurf bs Avxxv'f snpr naq ure qrngu va gur
fhojnl.
uggc://oqo.ieln.arg/oqo/pyvc.cuc?pyvc=5779
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
--
==Harmony Watcher==
jil...@hotmail.com
One Bit Shy wrote:
> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his mother
> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire Slayer
All indications are that, since Slayers spend most of their Chosen time
fighting vampires, it is rare that a Slayer falls to something OTHER
than a vampire. Heck, Buffy was drained and dumped in a puddle by the
Master (you may recall him, he was a vampire), drowned and triggered
Kendra. Kendra was killed by Drucilla (you may remember her, she IS a
vampire). We have no information that the Master or Drucilla ever
killed any other Slayers. And Lothos is a movie character, we have no
information that a character like him was what Buffy in the TV series
fought when she burned down the gym at her old high school. Dracula
didn't even indicate that he'd actually turned other Slayers. His plan
to get her to be his failed.
hayes62
> DAWN
> Willow, how would you get Buffy back?
>
> WILLOW
> That's what I'm saying-I don't even know.
>
> DAWN
> OK, but if another witch was to do it, where would she start?
>
> WILLOW
> Uh, physics, principles, basic laws...
>
> DAWN
> Such as?
>
> WILLOW
> Uh, conservation of energies. You can't really create or destroy
> anything, only transfer.
>
> Anya scoffs.
>
> DAWN
> I'm sorry, are you helping?
>
> ANYA
> No, but at least I'm not galloping off in the wrong direction.
>
> WILLOW
> Magic works off physics.
>
> ANYA
> Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies,
> you need some kind of conduit.
>
> WILLOW
> Like a-a Kraken's tooth.
>
> ANYA
> Yeah, skin of Draconis, um, ground up Baltic stones, something...
>
> ---
>
> Dawn's (nicely done) attempt to ground her, and Anya's abrasiveness,
> eventually get her back on track.
Throughout this episode Dawn's really showing what she learnt from
Potential. Before then, possibly fueled by First!Joyce's unsettling
words she was plotting hot water torture with Anya, now she's really
living up to Xander's calling her "extraordinary." However this bit of
dialogue because in the switch from physics to chemsitry it raises the
possibilith that the Shadowmen may not have fully understood the
mechanism of their own spell. As Anya says magic needs a catalyst.
> SHADOW MAN
> We are at the beginning. The source of your strength. The well of the
> slayer's power.
>
> ...which turns out to be a demon's essence. And thus, all the hints and
> speculation about whether or not the Slayer's power is somehow rooted in
> darkness (which have been re-emphasized this season) come to fruition.
> They're all true. That is yet another shocking revelation, even though
> they've been hinting at it for a long while.
>
Is the demon essence really the power or something that acts as a
catalyst to awaken an inherent strength in the girl herself? I like
this option metaphorically (although I don't think the show was going
for it explicitly but the author being dead 'n' all) because it ties in
with the way Buffy's variable powersget fired up by assaults on her
person (Harsh Light of Day), favourite property (The Freshman) or being
killed (Prophecy Girl). Vg nyfb bcraf gur cbffvoyvgl gung qrzbavp
ivbyngvba znl abg or gur bayl jnl gb npgvingr gung vaare cbjre.
Ubeevsvp riragf pna oevat bhg gur orfg va crbcyr ohg gung uneqyl
whfgvsvrf gur crecrgengbef naq vg'f abg gur bayl jnl gb vafcver
tbbqarff.
Stephen Tempest
>That's an imcomplete reading, though. Yes, she gets Spike to fight more
>like the old Spike...and yes, she gets mojo out of Willow (albeit
>somewhat unpleasantly-achieved magic). But the damge to the group
>dynamic may trump anything she achieved.
That's a good point. She's got Willow to use powerful magic again - at
the cost of creating a big rift between her and Kennedy (and possibly
further alienating Anya who was also life-sucked, although that's not
addressed on screen here). By pushing Spike back into his old Big Bad
role, she's setting up a confrontation between him and Wood that could
have untold consequences in a future episode.
She's achieved short term results at the cost of endangering the
long-term stability of her team.
>"Everyone sucks but me," yes
>-- and not without merit -- but as many have pointed out, "I suck" is a
>meta-message, and she's the only one that's not openly challenged to
>change that perception.
Well, except by Kennedy. <g>
Stephen
vague disclaimer
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> > Or maybe it was just a bit of gallows humour.
>
> You know, yes it is...but it's impossible to think of the show in almost
> any other season calling anyone but Giles (or Willow) the brains of
> the operation. If it doesn't say something within the narrative, it at
> least says something external to the narrative about the writers'
> current conception of Giles. That is, it's revealing no matter what the
> intent.
Sorry, I just cannot see this. She came from the "confrontation" with
Andrew and made a bleak joke about it.
There is such a thing as over-analysing.
> > *puzzled* An army without a command structure is not much of an army.
> > Rule one: make experience count.
>
> Rule one alpha: the potentials are not going to follow Kennedy when
> everything goes to hell, unless Kennedy herself changes. Kennedy won't
> even follow Giles.
She has has already followed Giles. To Sunnydale.
> Kennedy abandons the team to pursue her whims.
One breach of discipline, to woo Willow.
> She's
> rebellious and unreliable;
When? Especially the unreliable bit. In Showtime the only thing she
could be criticised for was wanting to stand and fight.
You seem to be hanging an awful lot of character assassination on one
incident.
> which doesn't mean she's not a terrific
> (potential) fighter. But she's exactly the wrong person for a position
> of authority within a hierarchy.
Sorry, don't see any basis for this.
> Make the sergeant Giles, or Wood...or
> hell, even Dawn at this point. Kennedy has elements of early-season
> Buffy, and even a more stable Faith, in her. That's not the direction
> that Buffy is currently taking this crew. She needs them disciplined for
> what she's apparently working on up to now.
>
You seem to be arguing for a pre-Somme British Army, where the officers
on the ground were so cowed that they showed no initiative.
In a crisis, I want someone who will step up and prevent it turning into
a rout.
> Which is not to say that any of this is what Buffy should be doing.
>
> > No she isn't. She is standing up for her girlfriend. And she's not
> > wrong. Trouble is, neither is Buffy.
>
> Yes, she *is* being obnoxious. One can stand up for one's S.O. and still
> be obnoxious doing it.
So strong willed and refusal to take bullshit = obnoxious?
--
What does not kill me makes me stronger. Unless it leaves me as a quadriplegic.
Scythe Matters
> She did a better job of getting her followers to buy into what
> she wanted them to do. She made them better and work harder
> by building them up, not tearing them down ("I'm going to need
> every single one of you on board.")
>
> I think she'll get much less resentment and resistence if she
> can get back to something akin to that leadership style.
Yes. Is isn't dictatorial leadership that's needed. She needs to, as
modern business parlance has it, "onboard" the people around her. Naq,
bs pbhefr, riraghnyyl gung'f whfg jung fur'yy qb.
Scythe Matters
> There is such a thing as over-analysing.
And also: under-.
> She has has already followed Giles. To Sunnydale.
The better to avoid dying. She's smart. Since then, she's been brave,
certainly, but she makes her own decisions on what to do and when to do
it. And if she was Buffy, that would be great, by the standards the show
set prior to "Get It Done." In a household where Buffy is insisting that
everyone do what she says, that's less helpful.
> When? Especially the unreliable bit.
Did she ever, just once, do the thing that someone else asked her to do
in "The Killer In Me"? (I don't mean something trivial.) But, see below.
> You seem to be hanging an awful lot of character assassination on one
> incident.
I'm not assasinating her character at all. I appreciate that these
qualities are fundamental to her character, and I don't mind seeing them
on the screen. All I'm saying is that she has problems if she's going to
be put in a leadership role, which is where she is in "Get It Done," and
she has problems in a submissive role, which is where Buffy says she
wants her (and everyone else) in the same episode. Problematic
characters are good. Problematic characters can lead to good drama. But
they're still problematic. And if those problems are where other
characters should see them and they don't react, that's not good drama.
Look, obviously Faith had much more extreme and difficult problems, and
is hardly comparable to Kennedy. But when she was allegedly recovering,
they were wary of putting her back in the field, and rightly so. People
may have *wanted* to trust her, but they didn't, and rightly so. Other
than the overly gentle remonstrance from Willow, the only person that
calls her out on some of her behavior isn't even a person, it's the First.
> You seem to be arguing for a pre-Somme British Army, where the officers
> on the ground were so cowed that they showed no initiative.
That's a creative reading of what preceded it. Buffy just said -- right
here in this episode -- that she wants them to do as she says. (She said
some other, contradictory stuff too.) She said it very quickly after
Kennedy told her off. I don't think that's an accident; all the other
push-back she receives is of a gentler variety, but Kennedy is harsh,
both Willow and Buffy immediately tell her she's out of line, and her
response leads directly to Buffy asserting some sort of authoritarian
role. Again, not an accident. Kennedy needs to be shut down, and shut
down hard -- *according to Buffy* -- and that leads to perhaps the most
ill-advised thing she says in the entire rant.
Buffy's not being as good a leader as she might be, but this exchange
right here shows that Kennedy is probably not going to be able to just
follow. And Buffy already knows that gentler persuasion doesn't work on
her either ("TKIM"). And she's openly defiant in a group setting where
Buffy is, no matter how badly, trying to achieve some sort of unity.
As I said before, none of this makes Kennedy a bad character. She's
obviously the most-developed of the potentials. But Buffy must now know
what sort of "assistant" Kennedy will be, and that's neither what she
wants or needs right now. Leaving her in that role is asking for
trouble, especially because the potential for another kind of trouble
between them is already brewing.
> So strong willed and refusal to take bullshit = obnoxious?
I guess when you read the words you wanted me to type, rather than the
actual words I typed, you can answer anything you want.
Here's Kennedy being obnoxious, just in this one episode:
KENNEDY
Hi. Who the hell are you?
KENNEDY
You're out of line!
KENNEDY
You're gonna let her talk to you like that? Willow, she's not even the
most powerful one in this room. With you here, she's not close.
KENNEDY
Hate to say it, (makes quotes with her hands) "Big Bad," but you look
like you can barely stand.
KENNEDY
You sucked the life out of me?
Here's Kennedy being strong-willed:
KENNEDY
(following on the "Big Bad" dig) We're trained. And the only thing we
know for sure about this demon is it kicked your ass.
(and)
KENNEDY
So, what do you think? My girls ready to kick some ass, or what?
PRINCIPAL WOOD
Looking strong.
KENNEDY
But...?
PRINCIPAL WOOD
Well, I'm just not sure the First has an ass that you can actually, you
know, kick.
KENNEDY
Guess we'll see.
(and)
KENNEDY
Just hurt. Don't make a case out of it.
(and)
KENNEDY
You've got the magic, use it.
(and)
KENNEDY
It matter if it's dead or alive?
There's a huge difference. If you can't see it...*shrug*...well, then
you can't see it.
And let me repeat for a third time, just so it's clear: I mind neither
the strong-willed Kennedy nor the obnoxious Kennedy. I do mind, however,
if she gets an unlimited and eternal free pass for such behavior.
Michael Ikeda
You did assign the quotes to the categories at random, right?
:)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Scythe Matters
> You did assign the quotes to the categories at random, right?
Shhh. ;-)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> For anyone interested, here's a nice fic about Dawn:
>
> Umad learns Sumerian:
> http://s8219.net/bbfarchive/archive/0/umadlearns.html
Thanks for posting that. Not only is it very well written, but ... a
fanfic that features authentic Sumerian and Akkadian text? I think I
kinda love it. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic here.)
--Chris the history geek
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Arbitrar Of Quality
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Elisi <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > For anyone interested, here's a nice fic about Dawn:
> >
> > Umad learns Sumerian:
> > http://s8219.net/bbfarchive/archive/0/umadlearns.html
>
> Thanks for posting that. Not only is it very well written, but ... a
> fanfic that features authentic Sumerian and Akkadian text? I think I
> kinda love it. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic here.)
It's not bad at all.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Scythe Matters wrote:
> And thus, all the hints and
> > speculation about whether or not the Slayer's power is somehow rooted in
> > darkness (which have been re-emphasized this season) come to fruition.
> > They're all true. That is yet another shocking revelation, even though
> > they've been hinting at it for a long while.
Does anyone actually find that shocking, I wonder? I mean, given how
many times we've been told inconclusively that the Slayer's power is
demonic or dark, how could it not be. Obviously we didn't know the
exact mechanism before, but I can't really call that a shocking
revelation.
> (although I don't think the show was going
> for it explicitly but the author being dead 'n' all)
???
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
OK, um...."obnoxious" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
> I do mind, however,
> if she gets an unlimited and eternal free pass for such behavior.
And she doesn't. The First saw to that more effectively than Buffy.
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-EA4739...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <12idopn...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
>> mother
>> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
>> killed Slayers.
>
> Most Slayers are killed by vampires. Buffy spent an evening reading
> accounts of Slayers killed by vampires.
If you're talking about Fool For Love, the word "vampire" is never said in
that scene. She's looking for explanations of how Slayers die - by any
means, not just by vampires. But she finds nothing. The accounts just
stop.
Giles: Accounts of the final battles would be very helpful. But there's no
one left to tell the tales.
> Buffy herself has come very
> close to being killed by vampires, on multiple occasions. (One time was
> so close that another Slayer got called because of it.)
She's come close to being killed by lots of things. And that's not the only
time she died.
>> I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
>> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time
>> that
>> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
>> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire
>> Slayer
>> killer like Spike.
>>
>> So, I'd expect serious suspicion, even if it's not direct knowledge.
>
> It may have crossed her mind, but she never says anything about it. She
> may have dismissed any suspicions she may have had because:
>
> 1) Spike killed his Slayer in New York, and Wood said he's from Beverly
> Hills.
> 2) Wood also said that he'd given up on looking for the vamp that had
> killed his mother. He never said anything about having followed that
> vampire to Sunnydale. (Since, in fact, he hadn't. He had no idea that
> the vampire who had killed his mother had come to Sunnydale too, until
> the First told him.)
Wood also said he wanted Buffy at the school because she'd be a good
counselor.
Wood has been actively deceiving Buffy about everything, and doesn't reveal
any of it until she sees him fighting vampires. And, as we see, he
continues to deceive Buffy about Spike. It's not like his word is
automatically gold.
>> Be that as it may, I personally don't see a lot from her that tells me
>> she's
>> figured it out, so I tend to go with the show's intent being that she
>> hasn't
>> figured it out.
>
> Jura fur qbrf svaq bhg, fur rkuvovgf ab fvta gung gur arjf vf n fhecevfr
> gb ure.
YBY! Fb gung zrnaf fur *qbrf* xabj? V unir zl qbhogf nobhg gur zvkrq
fvtanyf gur frevrf cebivqrf zlfrys, ohg lbh frrz gb or nethvat fur qbrf naq
fur qbrfa'g.
This is all hypothetical anyway. I don't see anything that actually says
she knows, which I'll assume is what the series is going for absent concrete
counter-evidence. All I'm saying is that when I try to put myself into
Buffy's head when Wood tells his tale, I immediately think Spike - not
because of specific evidence pointing to him, but because he's the vampire
she knows (intimately knows) that's killed Slayers and who's living in her
house right now. And, consequently, if he actually is the vampire that did
it - however small the odds - then that likely spells trouble.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1160205033....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> I think the biggest reason for Buffy to wonder is that Wood says his
>> mother
>> was killed by a vampire and Spike is the only vampire she knows of that's
>> killed Slayers. I don't see how at least the thought couldn't cross her
>> mind. Add to it that she knows one of them was roughly around the time
>> that
>> could be his mother, and here's Wood in Sunnydale where Spike is - right
>> where he ought to be if he's looking for some vengeance on a vampire
>> Slayer
>> killer like Spike.
>
> All indications are that, since Slayers spend most of their Chosen time
> fighting vampires, it is rare that a Slayer falls to something OTHER
> than a vampire.
I don't buy it. We've seen Buffy routinely fight all sorts of demons,
monsters, gods & even humans. Many of them more powerful than vampires.
And we've seen her surivive non-vampire fights only through the help of her
friends - think Once More With Feeling and Doublemeat Palace for example.
And we've seen her prevail against other monsters only with substantial
outside aid. Think the Mayor's ascension to giant snake.
We've also seen Buffy have to deal with other magical forces that can kill -
as one did in The Gift.
All the way back to Welcome To The Hellmouth, Giles told Buffy she had more
than vampires to deal with.
Giles: Like zombies, werewolves, incubi, succubi, everything you've ever
dreaded was under your bed, but told yourself couldn't be by the light of
day. They're all real!
With all the deadly creatures and forces that we are shown a Slayer has to
deal with, I'm not the slightest bit convinced that the one creature Slayers
are most equiped to handle - vampires - must be the primary soruce of their
death.
> Heck, Buffy was drained and dumped in a puddle by the
> Master (you may recall him, he was a vampire), drowned and triggered
> Kendra.
Buffy died a second time. You may recall that it wasn't a vampire.
> Kendra was killed by Drucilla (you may remember her, she IS a
> vampire).
Yes, we know of Dru, Spike and The Master. And then knowledge ends. Not a
lot to go on for what we believe is thousands of Slayer deaths.
> We have no information that the Master or Drucilla ever
> killed any other Slayers.
We know that was Dru's first. The Master doesn't say. We know that Luke
hadn't killed any.
> And Lothos is a movie character, we have no
> information that a character like him was what Buffy in the TV series
> fought when she burned down the gym at her old high school. Dracula
> didn't even indicate that he'd actually turned other Slayers. His plan
> to get her to be his failed.
Yes, normally they fail. We see a lot of that.
And when Wood told Buffy about his mother, she asked first if a demon had
killed her.
None of this is terribly relevant to my point. Even if nothing but vampires
ever kill Slayers, Spike is still the Slayer killer that Buffy knows and
who's living in her house. He's the vampire that would matter to her, and
the first that would come to her mind.
OBS
Scythe Matters
> OK, um...."obnoxious" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
Not your best.
One Bit Shy
news:grCdnUiHLoe9WLrY...@rcn.net...
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>> You seem to be arguing for a pre-Somme British Army, where the officers
>> on the ground were so cowed that they showed no initiative.
>
> That's a creative reading of what preceded it. Buffy just said -- right
> here in this episode -- that she wants them to do as she says. (She said
> some other, contradictory stuff too.) She said it very quickly after
> Kennedy told her off. I don't think that's an accident; all the other
> push-back she receives is of a gentler variety, but Kennedy is harsh, both
> Willow and Buffy immediately tell her she's out of line, and her response
> leads directly to Buffy asserting some sort of authoritarian role. Again,
> not an accident. Kennedy needs to be shut down, and shut down hard --
> *according to Buffy* -- and that leads to perhaps the most ill-advised
> thing she says in the entire rant.
I don't disagree with you about potential issues from Kennedy, nor that her
own leadership style probably needs some adjusting, nor that it would be
prudent to get her more in tune with Buffy's actual leadership. However, I
think you're off on this particular moment.
Kennedy's outburst does not trigger Buffy's especially imprudent outburst.
Buffy: You're new here, and you're wrong. Because I use the power that I
have. The rest of you are just waiting for me.
She uses Kennedy's reaction - which probably is of the sort Buffy really did
expect from someone - to further explain her point. "Because I use the
power that I have." (Which of course was in good part directed to Willow.)
Buffy's whole approach is questionable, but in this instance, she attempted
to use Kennedy's resistance as something to build upon.
Kennedy doesn't say any more then. Nor does she interfere with the shadow
puppet process nor Buffy's decision to to dive into the portal. As best as
I can tell by Kennedy's deeds, she took Buffy's words as a challenge to do
more - pretty much as intended.
Back to Buffy's imprudent remark, the trigger for that was Xander.
Xander: Well, yeah, but only because you kinda told us to. You're our
leader, Buffy, as in "follow the."
Kennedy tried to stand up for people's actual contributions and abilities -
mainly Willow. She wasn't resisting Buffy's desires. She just thought they
already were a tough bunch. That was a perfect lead in to how Buffy wanted
more. But Xander undercut her whole message by rationalizing doing less.
That's what Buffy attempted to harshly shut down.
Buffy: Well, from now on, I'm your leader as in "do what I say."
That was definitely the wrong thing to say because of the mixed message it
gives. Exerting authority wasn't the purpose of Buffy's speech. It
couldn't be. Not when her gripe was everybody depending on her. And her
authority really hadn't been in question anyway. She, of course, does want
people to follow her directives, but what she's really after is people to
make more of themselves so that everything doesn't have to come down on her.
Remember, this whole thing has been triggered by Chloe's inability to stand
tough on her own without Buffy around.
So "do what I say" isn't aimed at general submissiveness. Rather it's
something blurted at Xander 'cause he pissed her off by undercutting her
with the assertion that they're supposed to be waiting for Buffy.
Essentially she wants him to shut up and get on board, but she lost the
patience to say that in a way that wouldn't be taken wrong.
Bottom line. I don't think Kennedy triggered that. I think it was Xander.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> hayes62 wrote:
>> Scythe Matters wrote:
>> And thus, all the hints and
>> > speculation about whether or not the Slayer's power is somehow rooted
>> > in
>> > darkness (which have been re-emphasized this season) come to fruition.
>> > They're all true. That is yet another shocking revelation, even though
>> > they've been hinting at it for a long while.
>
> Does anyone actually find that shocking, I wonder? I mean, given how
> many times we've been told inconclusively that the Slayer's power is
> demonic or dark, how could it not be. Obviously we didn't know the
> exact mechanism before, but I can't really call that a shocking
> revelation.
When I first saw it I was a little shocked. But that's because I hadn't
really grasped prior hints as literal. (Or just missed them entirely.) I
had been thinking more along the lines of the thin divide between good and
evil powers - or that the power itself knows no such distinctions.
For Buffy herself, I don't think this would exactly be shock. But I do
think it would feel awful. Until then it had only been an insinuation - one
that she feared and didn't want to believe. Having it confirmed I think
would remove some little bit of hope of being something more. (It also,
incidentally, would explain a good part of her general anger at the Shadow
Men - why she would so readily make the worst interpretation of what they
did, assign them the worst motives, )
OBS
Scythe Matters
news:1160255728....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Does anyone actually find that shocking, I wonder?
Everyone who'd said it before was evil, and she'd denied it and fought
it at each step. You're probably right that "shocking" may not be the
best term. But it's a characterization she'd fought against ever since
it was introduced, and here it is, made fact. That's like a failure,
though it's not her fault, and it has to hurt. It's sorta like fighting
and fighting and fighting against an unpleasant prophecy, hoping to
subvert it...and then in the very end of things, defeat is borne from
the seeds of victory and the prophecy comes true. "The Gift," up until
Buffy's tower revelation, might be a good example. It *feels* like a
failure, and though it doesn't preclude further action it cannot be
ignored any longer. Putting it another way: had she known this back in
season one, I doubt she'd have embraced her calling in the same way, and
much might have been different. That's how horrifying a concept it is.
One Bit Shy
> Is the demon essence really the power or something that acts as a
> catalyst to awaken an inherent strength in the girl herself? I like
> this option metaphorically (although I don't think the show was going
> for it explicitly but the author being dead 'n' all) because it ties in
> with the way Buffy's variable powersget fired up by assaults on her
> person (Harsh Light of Day), favourite property (The Freshman) or being
> killed (Prophecy Girl).
I've often wondered what that essence really was - and that's an interesting
idea.
Buffy says that it will make her less human. But is that just an
assumption? Or, if true, does it necessarily mean making her more demonic?
The Shadow Men speak of it being the energy of the demon - its spirit and
heart. (But not its soul.) What does that really mean? It's not the demon
itself. And considering the kind of human heart we've seen from Buffy over
the years, not much like demon possessions we've seen.
I have sometimes wondered if it was more a raw power than demonic in itself.
But your idea makes me think of something else. You've noted the instances
of variable power. There's also the early S5 manifestation when Buffy
seemed to take on a kind of feral hunting instinct that made her stronger.
There probably needs to be a connection to that, because that's the same
time as Dracula is telling her about having similar power and Buffy is drawn
to understanding her nature better.
OBS
Scythe Matters
> Kennedy's outburst does not trigger Buffy's especially imprudent outburst.
I see what you're saying, and I agree that in form it's a response to
what Xander says. But I think Buffy's ire was raised by Kennedy's
response, and I think that visually Gellar plays it that way. It may
have remained a conceptual rant, but Kennedy personalized it and made
her angry. Had "ja wohl" happened before Kennedy's little outburst, then
I'd put the blame squarely on Xander.
> Kennedy doesn't say any more then.
Wisely. Ohg bs pbhefr, fur jvyy yngre. Which is also part of my point.
> As best as
> I can tell by Kennedy's deeds, she took Buffy's words as a challenge to do
> more - pretty much as intended.
I don't know that she raises her game; Kennedy's always up for just
about any challenge, so I'm not sure I agree that she learns a lesson.
She probably didn't need to learn it, and I don't think Buffy's ever
speaking to her, as such. I agree that she attempts to, um, "get it
done" after Buffy's gone, and that's to her credit. But this is all
orthogonal to my point, which remains: Kennedy is probably not suited
for a leadership role *under Buffy*.
hayes62
One Bit Shy wrote:
> None of this is terribly relevant to my point. Even if nothing but vampires
> ever kill Slayers, Spike is still the Slayer killer that Buffy knows and
> who's living in her house. He's the vampire that would matter to her, and
> the first that would come to her mind.
>
such a big deal? Buffy already knows that Spike's killled Slayers but
she also believes that he's paying the penance for all of his crimes
and that he can be a good man in spite of them. Compared with what he
did "to girls Dawn's age" Spike's Slayer killings are likely to be
among the less henious of his offences to her mind. It's her job that
kills Slayers from the Slayer's point of view, sooner or later some
demon is going to get lucky, it doesn't really matter to her which one
it is.
Buffy is also much more focussed on the good Spike might do in the
future than the bad he's committed in the past. Maybe overly so, but
for good or ill it all adds up to making it unlikely she would dwell
long on the possibility that the New York Slayer he killed was Wood's
mother. Especially since Wood was quite vehement to her about being
over the vengeance thing.
hayes62
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > (although I don't think the show was going
> > for it explicitly but the author being dead 'n' all)
>
> ???
Dead as in "God is dead." It's a lit critter way of saying they don't
give a damm what the writer thought he meant.
Stephen Tempest
>I don't buy it. We've seen Buffy routinely fight all sorts of demons,
>monsters, gods & even humans. Many of them more powerful than vampires.
In the later seasons, yes. Now think back to the first time you saw
'Welcome to the Hellmouth' and 'The Harvest'. Buffy only beat a single
vampire - Luke - because he burned himself on her cross by accident,
giving her an opening. When they 'rescued' Jesse, half a dozen
vampires had her panicking and running. The battle in The Bronze was
again against just half-a-dozen or so vampires, and yet she treated it
as a vast climactic battle. Even Angel was surprised she survived.
Even by the time of 'Faith, Hope and Trick' she still regarded a
battle against a mere three vampires as the most dangerous fight of
her life.
In other words, it seems that to a 'normal' Slayer a vampire *is* an
extremely dangerous adversary...
Stephen
hayes62
Buffy though she might be able to harness the hunting/killer instinct
but it was never clear whether that type of darkness was inherent in
her power or whether having the power allowed her more opportuinity to
work out dark but perfectly human impulses along the same line. Or
indeed whether such impulses were part of her character or whether the
nightly death toll, responsibility and lethal danger she put herself in
would likely bring them out in any girl over time.
I have a certain discomfort with the interpretation that Slayer power
(aka women's power) is inherently dark, amoral and chaotic, not to
mention inhuman. Dracula certainly introduces the concept but for the
rest of its run the show seems to be continually questioning it,
breaking it down. Spike suggests that the darkness lies in the close
association with death and makes it sound all Freudian and sexy but
later in the season death doesn't seem sexy at all. Then "The
Gift" points out that the death thing is as much about laying her own
life on the line as dealing it out to demons.
In S6 Buffy gets very dark but it's emphatically not because she came
back wrong in any demonic sense and if a killer instinct is involved
it's one that's she's turned on herself. Up until GiD in S7
Buffy's darkness has seemed more existential than monstrous, the urge
to isolate herself from other, the disconnection inherent in her unique
calling, the whole "heavy hangs the head that wears the crown"
thing. So I don't know if the demonic possession we're shown is
just what it seems to be or some kind of philosophical red herring.
Michael Ikeda
news:12igl5e...@news.supernews.com:
>
> She uses Kennedy's reaction - which probably is of the sort
> Buffy really did expect from someone - to further explain her
> point. "Because I use the power that I have." (Which of course
> was in good part directed to Willow.)
It occurs to me that even though there is friction between Kennedy
and Buffy, they both give Willow what amounts to the same advice--to
take a more active role in matters. Which means a more extensive use
of magic.
(Harmony) Watcher
"(Harmony) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote in message
news:bEGVg.102508$5R2.62695@pd7urf3no...
>
> "Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
> > (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> >
> > > apocalyses.
> >
> > Is that the plural? ;-)
>
> I heard it has been since the 1600s, :)
>
>
If I spelled it correctly without missing the "p", that is.
> --
> ==Harmony Watcher==
>
>
vague disclaimer
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
Perhaps not, but then you did include "You sucked the life out of me?"
in your "obnoxious" list without giving its full context, so I suspect
that makes us even.
Blunt is not equal to obnoxious.