AOQ Review 5-3: "The Replacement"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 3: "The Replacement"
(or "Zey are like tvins! BOTH of zem!")
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: James A. Contner
"Xander's really annoying me this week." - Mrs. Quality
That statement above looked like it would do a good job explaining why
some people would enjoy this episode while others would be annoyed. As
he stumbles around the apartment they're looking at, looking rather
spastically pathetic, those of us who try to see this character as
something other than a bumbling idiot may cringe. While clownishness
and loserdom are certainly big components of Xander, I've always felt
that the show went overboard with that fairly often, keeping me from
ever liking him as much as I could've. And then after getting hit by
Toth's weapon, the episode goes on to thrill us with Xander generally
acting out of his element, falling and hitting his head a lot, and so
on... that didn't have me feeling very good about the show on first
viewing. Naturally, it makes more sense in retrospect, once one sees
that TR is all about bringing out his better side, without denying his
fundamental Xander-ness.
Other than the lame and obvious joke with the attempted massage, I
liked the teaser with the kicking movie. Also enjoyed the bit with
poor Spike losing his lamp. That's what you get for cheering for the
Slayer's foes.
Where is Anya's "own place?" Did we ever find out?
One thing that kept me interested is that the parts in which Suave
Xander takes the reigns begin to make the case that there is more to
our Zeppo than the buffonery. All of Suave Xander's successes are
based on things that were already there: he's been impressing people
at work for months, his credit rating is as good as his penmanship, his
geeky jokes can amuse the apartment woman under the right
circumstances, he's managed to get into Anya's heart and sometimes
knows just what to say to her, and he's always looked that good with
his shirt off. These sequences also work even better once one knows
that the effects are genuine, not just the result of the Flattened Coin
Of Doom.
"The Replacement," of course, pulls a trick on the audience by
showing things almost entirely from Lame Xander's perspective, thus
leading the unwary viewer to classify one of the twins as "real"
and the other as "fake." I fell for it. The effect is that we can
easily see how easily one could mistake the other for a villain. Then
the reveal is one of the few times where I found that an understanding
that comes later in the episode could wipe out my misgivings about
earlier parts. Lame Xander's clumsiness being taken to excess?
Explained. And more than that, I don't feel annoyed over having had
to watch it, even though I didn't like it at the time. Suave Xander
having such a handle on how to talk to his friends? Explained. Buffy
and company trusting him so easily? Explained.
The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
What feels like it should have been one of the highlights of the
episode is the chat between Lame Xander and Willow. He spastically
tells her to look into his eyes (there's a lot of eye-looking-into in
this series). The, through things that only they would know, he's
able to convince her that he is who he says he is (I'd have objected
if she hadn't been won over), and we get to see them interact as old
friends. But the scene soon degenerates into a long-winded unnatural
sounding monologue, which Brenden can't quite manage to save.
Willow's reactions don't help the scene either, since Hannigan's
performance is uncharacteristically flat throughout. I was
disappointed.
This episode does some good work with Anya, both as comic relief and
with exploring her continued adjustment to human life.
Buffy and Riley's brief exchange, carefully shot so as to avoid
absolutely confirming my belief that the car isn't moving, is a bit
of a high spot. He knows her well enough to anticipate and dismiss the
question of whether he'd want her Slayer-free; I like the line
"being the Slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't
get that, but..." And looking over a transcript, it seems that the
end of this scene sets up a little something at the end of the episode,
for those who're paying close attention (I, of course, missed it)...
The question of why Anya or Xander (I'm not clear on whose it is)
would keep a loaded pistol lying around is worth thinking about. I'd
make a Chekhov's Gun joke, but I can't think of a good one right
now.
"We checked out some stuff in the car on the way over." Did anyone
else just go to a scary visual place?
One thing that I was kinda expecting to happen that didn't was for
one of the twins, probably Lame Xander himself, to decide that Lame
Xander didn't need to exist in this life, and should just go sulk
somewhere while letting the smoother one handle things. What I
wasn't counting on was how much the two of them would get a kick out
of each other. Despite all his self-esteem issues, Xander seems to
fundamentally like himself - the whole package. I'm sure Anya
feeling similarly doesn't hurt.
Speaking of jokes... I thought it was odd, given that Jane E. wrote
this one, that there were so few quotable one-liners. Then act four
rolled around, and put an end to thoughts like that. All one can do at
a time like this is pick a few favorites and list. And yes, some of
them don't actually come from the last act, so sue me:
ANYA: When do we get a car?
SUAVE XANDER: A car?
ANYA: And a boat. No, wait, I - I don't mean a boat. I mean a puppy.
Or a child. I have a list somewhere.
GILES: I said, "oh, dear lord."
BUFFY: You always say that.
GILES: Well, it's always important!
BUFFY: If Xander kills himself, he's dead.
RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
me, then.
ANYA: Well, maybe we shouldn't do this reintegration thing right away.
See, I can take the boys home, and we can all have sex together, and...
you know, just slap 'em back together in the morning.
SUAVE XANDER: She's joking.
LAME XANDER: No she's not! She entirely wants to have sex with us
together. Which is *wrong*, and, and it would be very confusing.
XANDERS: KILL US BOTH, SPOCK! [both start laughing hysterically, along
with this viewer]
ANYA: Me? Buffy has super strength. Why don't we just load her up
like one of those little horses?
We close with a Xander/Riley scene that seems to be dragging us on a
bit of a melodramatic ride as he waxes on about how his love for Buffy
is just so spayshul... and then, "but she doesn't love me." End
of episode. I guess this is "end with a surprise" year, as the
writers once again catch the viewer off guard with a little moment
that'll get his attention in the last few seconds. Well, it's
noteworthy. And the man has tended to know what he was talking about
with regards to such things in the past few episodes...
So...
One-sentence summary: Pretty fun, and actually does something
worthwhile with Mr. Harris for once.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good]
Opus the Penguin
> XANDERS: KILL US BOTH, SPOCK! [both start laughing hysterically,
> along with this viewer]
Followed by my personal favorite: "Yes, he's clearly a bad influence on
himself."
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 3: "The Replacement"
> (or "Zey are like tvins! BOTH of zem!")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
And they really are twins. Nick's twin brother Kelly Donovan doubles for
Xander in a few scenes, and later becomes his stunt double in the series.
HWL
Apteryx
news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
I am partly in Mrs Q's camp on this one. Xander can be lame enough at times
without concentrating his lameness into one character. But it's all in a
good cause, giving Xander a better example of how he can operate, and there
are all those great jokes.
>
> Where is Anya's "own place?" Did we ever find out?
I can't recall that we ever saw it. Of course we know it must exist, because
she hasn't always been with Xander.
> One thing that kept me interested is that the parts in which Suave
> Xander takes the reigns begin to make the case that there is more to
> our Zeppo than the buffonery. All of Suave Xander's successes are
> based on things that were already there: he's been impressing people
> at work for months, his credit rating is as good as his penmanship, his
> geeky jokes can amuse the apartment woman under the right
> circumstances
That one seems a bit of a cheat. She was clearly unimpressed the last time
she saw the all in one Xander. But she falls for Suave Xander awfully
quickly.
>
> "The Replacement," of course, pulls a trick on the audience by
> showing things almost entirely from Lame Xander's perspective, thus
> leading the unwary viewer to classify one of the twins as "real"
> and the other as "fake." I fell for it. The effect is that we can
> easily see how easily one could mistake the other for a villain. Then
> the reveal is one of the few times where I found that an understanding
> that comes later in the episode could wipe out my misgivings about
> earlier parts. Lame Xander's clumsiness being taken to excess?
> Explained.
But not excused. And they do cheat a little to enhance that identification
with Lame Xander. There is a misdirection when Anya tells Suave Xander he
doesn't understand what its like (to become mortal) and he sinisterly
replies "Being suddenly human? I think I can get what that would be like.:
> The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
Nethnoyl gur zbfg fvtavsvpnag fprar va gur rcvfbqr, jvgu Wblpr'f svefg
urnqnpur.
> What feels like it should have been one of the highlights of the
> episode is the chat between Lame Xander and Willow. He spastically
> tells her to look into his eyes (there's a lot of eye-looking-into in
> this series). The, through things that only they would know, he's
> able to convince her that he is who he says he is (I'd have objected
> if she hadn't been won over), and we get to see them interact as old
> friends. But the scene soon degenerates into a long-winded unnatural
> sounding monologue, which Brenden can't quite manage to save.
> Willow's reactions don't help the scene either, since Hannigan's
> performance is uncharacteristically flat throughout. I was
> disappointed.
Willow's reaction are understated because she is trying to work out why
Xander would be trying to prove he is Xander - she is not aware there are
two.
> This episode does some good work with Anya, both as comic relief and
> with exploring her continued adjustment to human life.
Definitely.
>
> The question of why Anya or Xander (I'm not clear on whose it is)
> would keep a loaded pistol lying around is worth thinking about.
Anya says its hers. Ex vengeance demon? Its not hard to imagine she has
enemies.
>
> Speaking of jokes... I thought it was odd, given that Jane E. wrote
> this one, that there were so few quotable one-liners. Then act four
> rolled around, and put an end to thoughts like that. All one can do at
> a time like this is pick a few favorites and list. And yes, some of
> them don't actually come from the last act, so sue me:
>
> ANYA: When do we get a car?
> SUAVE XANDER: A car?
> ANYA: And a boat. No, wait, I - I don't mean a boat. I mean a puppy.
> Or a child. I have a list somewhere.
>
> GILES: I said, "oh, dear lord."
> BUFFY: You always say that.
> GILES: Well, it's always important!
>
> BUFFY: If Xander kills himself, he's dead.
>
> RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
> wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
> me, then.
>
> ANYA: Well, maybe we shouldn't do this reintegration thing right away.
> See, I can take the boys home, and we can all have sex together, and...
> you know, just slap 'em back together in the morning.
> SUAVE XANDER: She's joking.
> LAME XANDER: No she's not! She entirely wants to have sex with us
> together. Which is *wrong*, and, and it would be very confusing.
With the follow up:
GILES: Uh, uh, we just need to light the candles. Also, we should continue
to pretend we heard none of the disturbing sex talk.
WILLOW: Check. Candles and pretense.
> ANYA: Me? Buffy has super strength. Why don't we just load her up
> like one of those little horses?
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty fun, and actually does something
> worthwhile with Mr. Harris for once.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Its only ever been Decent for me, but it is growing on me. Once it was on
the border of Weak, but it has crept up over the years to be closer to Good
than Weak. But I still can't entirely enjoy watching Lame Xander. And
despite a great beginning, the demon is pretty lame himself in operation -
partly just cheesy, partly the usual dumb villain. His plan is to get close
enough to the Slayer to blast her with something, and all he wants to blast
her with is something that will separate her two sides. Why not something
that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate her
from this mortal coil. For me its the 100th best BtVS episode, 13th best in
season 5
--
Apteryx
burt...@hotmail.com
> And
> despite a great beginning, the demon is pretty lame himself in operation -
> partly just cheesy, partly the usual dumb villain. His plan is to get close
> enough to the Slayer to blast her with something, and all he wants to blast
> her with is something that will separate her two sides. Why not something
> that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate her
> from this mortal coil.
That was my big problem with the episode. Given the range at which Toth
fired his magic blast, a shotgun would have gotten the job done much
faster and without the risk that Buffy's Slayer half would beat him to
a pulp before he could get away.
I agree - it's a pretty lame premise.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>
> I can't recall that we ever saw it. Of course we know it must exist, because
> she hasn't always been with Xander.
that was anyas gun at her place
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
vague disclaimer
wrote:
> Why not something
> that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate her
> from this mortal coil.
Perhaps because that is not this demon's modus operandi?
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Elisi
> Buffy and Riley's brief exchange, carefully shot so as to avoid
> absolutely confirming my belief that the car isn't moving, is a bit
> of a high spot. He knows her well enough to anticipate and dismiss the
> question of whether he'd want her Slayer-free; I like the line
> "being the Slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't
> get that, but..." And looking over a transcript, it seems that the
> end of this scene sets up a little something at the end of the episode,
> for those who're paying close attention (I, of course, missed it)...
Yet again I turned to Spring Summers, since she has some fascinating
ideas about this episode. Most especially of what S2 episode she thinks
it refers back to (I'll leave most of it out and just focus on her main
points):
XANDER: "Ah. I guess the folks are back. (Everyone hears the nasty
argument begin.) No, no, I was wrong. Just incompetent burglars.
Yeah. Maybe it's definitely time to start looking for a new place.
Something a little nicer. Buffy, you've been to Hell. They have one
bedrooms, right?"
Xander has replaced his parents' identities with that of burglars.
And he suggests an apartment in Hell as a substitute for the Harris
basement. For Xander, the idea of burglars and Hell hurts less than
the current reality.
So Xander tries to ignore the fuss upstairs, and he tries to replace
the truth with less messy and hurtful images. Buffy, always a
contender in the Blind-Eye Finals, tries to help Xander by distracting
him and asking him about Willow and witch-movies. And Xander is more
than game; it all hurts more than Xander can bear:
ANGEL (in Season 2's Passions): "It hurts sometimes, more than we
can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind
of peace. But we would be hollow - empty rooms, shuttered and dank.
Without passion, we'd be truly dead."
So Xander deadens himself as needed. This episode is about people
engaging in the selective internal business of self-construction. They
decide which parts to build up, and which to ignore; which rooms to
open for busy habitation, and which to leave locked - all shuttered
and dank. All dead.
<snip>
BUFFY (later, to Riley): "We'd better get there soon. If Xander
kills himself, he's dead. You know what I mean."
Yes, Buffy, I'm thinking Riley knows exactly what you mean. When you
deaden a part of yourself - maybe your heart, because you once got
your heart torn out - you might as well be dead. Re-read the latter
quote, above, understanding that it is in response to these words, from
Riley:
RILEY: "I gotta have it all. I'm talking toes, elbows, the whole
bad ice-skating movie obsession, everything. There's no part of you
I'm not in love with."
And to that, to those amazing words, to that unrestricted freefall of a
final phrase, to that most beautiful dive off the highest of the high
boards - to that declaration of boundless love - Buffy responds with
a small smile and that comment about Xander. Buffy's heart chamber
is locked tight. As Riley tells Xander after Xander has been blasted
by Toth's firing rod: "That had to hurt." Yeee-ouch.
Yep - Riley smacks the cement pretty hard. No warm water in the
Buffy-pool. No cold water, even. It's all hollow, all empty, like a
sucking chest wound.
<snip>
So let's pause a moment to re-examine Xander's words on leaving his
basement: "That's where I got my heart ripped out." After he
says that, Xander adds: "I really hate this place." Xander is
moving out. As he dreamed in Restless, he's gotta be "with the
moving forward." He's attempting to leave behind the place where
he got his heart ripped out.
We'll see how that all works out for Xander as the series progresses.
It's not going to be perfect - you can't really leave it all
behind, ignore it, and pretend it's not there. But at least Xander
is not Buffy. He doesn't have his nose constantly buried in his
History book [in 'Passion' Angel was referred to as Buffy's 'History
tutor'], with only Riley's large hands and images of violent fighting
to occasionally distract him from the rip-roaring pain in his chest
cavity.
<snip>
So there ya go. At the end of 'The Replacement' Riley knows, and
Xander knows, and we all know, that Buffy isn't in love with Riley.
You wonder why she isn't? In between the lines of this episode, we
are being told exactly why: Because she won't allow herself to even
find out if she _could_ be in love with him. Look in her history book.
When it comes to romantic love, her heart is a locked and empty room.
It hurts too much to open it for business again. Like Xander with his
burglars, Buffy has replaced her risky, blind, wild, and passionate
love for Angel with her cautious, clear-eyed, solid, and sensible
feelings for Riley. He's The Replacement - The Replacement that
hurts less.
~~~
Now whether or not you agree with that is up to you - but I found it
intruiging!
And, just because I love the way she puts this, I have to include it.
I'm getting tired of rot-13, but since this is very spoilery I'm afraid
that I'll have to bite the bullet...
Ohg, gb dhbgr Frnfba 2 Natry ntnva:
"Cnffvba. Vg yvrf va nyy bs hf. Fyrrcvat, jnvgvat. Naq gubhtu
hajnagrq, haovqqra - vg jvyy fgve. Bcra vgf wnjf, naq ubjy."
Fb . . . znlor Ohssl vf abg tbvat gb or noyr gb xrrc cnffvba ng onl
sberire. Nf Fcvxr fnlf va guvf rcvfbqr, juvyr pnerffvat gur snpr bs
gur Ohssl-znaardhva jubfr urnq ur unf whfg ivbyragyl, cnffvbangryl
xvpxrq bss: "Bu, Fynlre. Bar bs gurfr qnlf." Bar bs gurfr qnlf,
gubhtu hajnagrq, haovqqra, Ohssl'f cnffvba jvyy fgve. Vg jvyy bcra
vgf wnjf, naq vg jvyy ubjy ybhq rabhtu gb oevat n ubhfr - naq gura n
jubyr gbja - qbja, qbja, qbja. Bar bs gurfr qnlf.
Ohg sbe abj, Ohssl zbirf nybat, unys-qrnq, pbzzvggvat n cnegvny fhvpvqr
juvpu jvyy orpbzr shyy-oybja ng Frnfba'f raq. Fur vf vtabevat
cnffvba, whfg nf Knaqre vtaberf uvf cneragf, whfg nf gur Fpbbovrf
vtaber Naln & Knaqre nf gurl svtug (irel fvzvyneyl!) jvguva urnevat bs
gur ncnegzrag znantre.
Apteryx
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-31C70...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> > Where is Anya's "own place?" Did we ever find out?
>>
>> I can't recall that we ever saw it. Of course we know it must exist,
>> because
>> she hasn't always been with Xander.
>
> that was anyas gun at her place
Yes of course. It was also where she was when was waiting by the phone
denying she was waiting by the phone.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:l64o-1rj5-82639...@mercury.nildram.net...
> In article <e637qo$96p$1...@nntp.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> Why not something
>> that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate
>> her
>> from this mortal coil.
>
> Perhaps because that is not this demon's modus operandi?
Perhaps. Would the demon be less dumb if it made the same mistake on a
regular basis instead of just this once?
--
Apteryx
jil...@hotmail.com
not recognizing is that Buffy's life (and the writers) means she has
the man's emotionally closed role. Like in "Ghost" the hero would
never say "I love you," only "Ditto." That she's no longer gushy and
girly doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she doesn't
recognizes that she's with a man who needs her to be gushy and girly.
She doesn't show her vulnerabilities anymore.
Riley's been raised in a culture that believe women are vulnerable and
emotional, and will behave so and if they aren't behaving so, must not
be so emotionally involved. But she IS emotionally involved, just not
emotionally open.
KenM47
The only person Buffy has told she "loves" Riley is Angel. And that
was as a weapon. She has not said it to Riley, or even the Scoobies
IIRC.
Ken (Brooklyn)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 3: "The Replacement"
> (or "Zey are like tvins! BOTH of zem!")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> "Xander's really annoying me this week." - Mrs. Quality
Hehe.
<snip>
>
> Other than the lame and obvious joke with the attempted massage, I
> liked the teaser with the kicking movie. Also enjoyed the bit with
> poor Spike losing his lamp. That's what you get for cheering for the
> Slayer's foes.
Poor Spike. They won't even let him keep the good garbage. Also, it's
amusing to notice what else he's got in his shopping cart.
>
> Where is Anya's "own place?" Did we ever find out?
Not yet.
>
> One thing that kept me interested is that the parts in which Suave
> Xander takes the reigns begin to make the case that there is more to
> our Zeppo than the buffonery. All of Suave Xander's successes are
> based on things that were already there: he's been impressing people
> at work for months, his credit rating is as good as his penmanship, his
> geeky jokes can amuse the apartment woman under the right
> circumstances, he's managed to get into Anya's heart and sometimes
> knows just what to say to her, and he's always looked that good with
> his shirt off. These sequences also work even better once one knows
> that the effects are genuine, not just the result of the Flattened Coin
> Of Doom.
That's what I enjoy about this episode. We've witnessed both of those
sides of Xander in the past and recognize them both here, even when
they are stripped down to "strong" and "weak" versions.
>
> "The Replacement," of course, pulls a trick on the audience by
> showing things almost entirely from Lame Xander's perspective, thus
> leading the unwary viewer to classify one of the twins as "real"
> and the other as "fake." I fell for it. The effect is that we can
> easily see how easily one could mistake the other for a villain. Then
> the reveal is one of the few times where I found that an understanding
> that comes later in the episode could wipe out my misgivings about
> earlier parts. Lame Xander's clumsiness being taken to excess?
> Explained. And more than that, I don't feel annoyed over having had
> to watch it, even though I didn't like it at the time. Suave Xander
> having such a handle on how to talk to his friends? Explained. Buffy
> and company trusting him so easily? Explained.
This is one of the best "switcheroo" episodes they've done IMHO. They
completely lead you to believe one thing (and I fell for it too) and
then bam! They got you.
>
> The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
I really meant to watch this episode last night so it would be fresh in
my mind and couldn't, I'll watch it tonight so that I can actually
remember this darn scene.
>
> What feels like it should have been one of the highlights of the
> episode is the chat between Lame Xander and Willow. He spastically
> tells her to look into his eyes (there's a lot of eye-looking-into in
> this series). The, through things that only they would know, he's
> able to convince her that he is who he says he is (I'd have objected
> if she hadn't been won over), and we get to see them interact as old
> friends. But the scene soon degenerates into a long-winded unnatural
> sounding monologue, which Brenden can't quite manage to save.
> Willow's reactions don't help the scene either, since Hannigan's
> performance is uncharacteristically flat throughout. I was
> disappointed.
But...but... Xander did the Snoopy dance and then the yellow crayon
talk.... I loved that scene.
>
> This episode does some good work with Anya, both as comic relief and
> with exploring her continued adjustment to human life.
I agree. Her excitement over the new apartment was amusing but actually
well understood.
>
> Buffy and Riley's brief exchange, carefully shot so as to avoid
> absolutely confirming my belief that the car isn't moving, is a bit
> of a high spot. He knows her well enough to anticipate and dismiss the
> question of whether he'd want her Slayer-free; I like the line
> "being the Slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't
> get that, but..." And looking over a transcript, it seems that the
> end of this scene sets up a little something at the end of the episode,
> for those who're paying close attention (I, of course, missed it)...
Note to self: Look for this tonight.
>
> The question of why Anya or Xander (I'm not clear on whose it is)
> would keep a loaded pistol lying around is worth thinking about. I'd
> make a Chekhov's Gun joke, but I can't think of a good one right
> now.
>
> "We checked out some stuff in the car on the way over." Did anyone
> else just go to a scary visual place?
heh.
>
> One thing that I was kinda expecting to happen that didn't was for
> one of the twins, probably Lame Xander himself, to decide that Lame
> Xander didn't need to exist in this life, and should just go sulk
> somewhere while letting the smoother one handle things. What I
> wasn't counting on was how much the two of them would get a kick out
> of each other. Despite all his self-esteem issues, Xander seems to
> fundamentally like himself - the whole package. I'm sure Anya
> feeling similarly doesn't hurt.
I loved when they both started cracking up at their own jokes. "Strong"
Xander started to slip just a bit more on to "Weak" Xander's level and
then you realize, hey, they were both actually on that level to begin
with.
<snip>
>
> We close with a Xander/Riley scene that seems to be dragging us on a
> bit of a melodramatic ride as he waxes on about how his love for Buffy
> is just so spayshul... and then, "but she doesn't love me." End
> of episode. I guess this is "end with a surprise" year, as the
> writers once again catch the viewer off guard with a little moment
> that'll get his attention in the last few seconds. Well, it's
> noteworthy. And the man has tended to know what he was talking about
> with regards to such things in the past few episodes...
The look on Xander's face when he said that... I don't care for Riley
all that much as a character, but I can't call him stupid.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty fun, and actually does something
> worthwhile with Mr. Harris for once.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Five so far:
> 1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
> 2) "Real Me" - Decent
> 3) "The Replacement" - Good]
Agreed.
Espen Schjønberg
> The thing is, I disagree with Riley. Buffy does love him.
Well, I have said it before, so I just repeat it now:
Riley Finn is of course "the falcon", which he realizes, but
never accepts. Buffy never gets this. (Old Norse "sagas" here-
Gunnlaug Ormstunge. Very short: If a girl loses her "Eagle", she may
settle for a "falcon". But both she and "the falcon" knew and accepted
what had happened in that story.)
--
Espen
Elisi
Very interesting points - hey maybe Buffy should find herself someone
like Tara? ;)
But seriously - can you be emotionally involved, if you're not open?
See I think she has feelings for Riley - she might even love him,
but... now this is what's so interesting, because how do you define
love? Did Buffy f.ex. love Angel _more_ than say her mother? As my
friend Anna once put it: "I don't think we love in amounts. We love in
ways." And whichever way Buffy is loving Riley it's obviously not what
he's looking for.
Also we can go back to 'Something Blue' and the beginning of their
relationship:
Willow: The pain is not a friend.
Buffy: But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes
from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts,
but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in
hand with pain and fighting.
But then Angel is the only man she has loved before Riley... did he
warp her?
Anyway, that's all just speculation. Another question that I was
wondering was just how much older Riley is. Buffy is 19. Riley I'd put
at maybe... 25? So it's possible that he is looking for something a lot
more long term than she is. Or rather - I think he has been thinking of
the long term, whereas she is content with being happy here and now.
And now I'll go away and stop speculating aimlessly. I hope you don't
mind?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And
> despite a great beginning, the demon is pretty lame himself in operation -
> partly just cheesy, partly the usual dumb villain. His plan is to get close
> enough to the Slayer to blast her with something, and all he wants to blast
> her with is something that will separate her two sides. Why not something
> that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate her
> from this mortal coil.
I'm not obsessing much over that, just because this is one of those
episodes where the villain seems irrelevant to the point of
non-factor-ness. Yeah, it's a dumb monster, but at least it's
something new and different; people have tried to gun down Buffy or
blow her up before, without much more success.
-AOQ
William George Ferguson
>jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> The thing is, I disagree with Riley. Buffy does love him. What he's
>> not recognizing is that Buffy's life (and the writers) means she has
>> the man's emotionally closed role. Like in "Ghost" the hero would
>> never say "I love you," only "Ditto." That she's no longer gushy and
>> girly doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she doesn't
>> recognizes that she's with a man who needs her to be gushy and girly.
>> She doesn't show her vulnerabilities anymore.
>>
>> Riley's been raised in a culture that believe women are vulnerable and
>> emotional, and will behave so and if they aren't behaving so, must not
>> be so emotionally involved. But she IS emotionally involved, just not
>> emotionally open.
The thing is, we've never seen an 'emotionally open' Buffy. The character
has always been an emotional gunnysacker who packs her emotions away, until
they spill out at inconvenient times. The only person to whom she has
spoken the the Three Words with any ease or openness is Willow, and there
it is safe (on her part) because it is so clearly agape (on her part).
>But seriously - can you be emotionally involved, if you're not open?
Short answer: Yes.
>See I think she has feelings for Riley - she might even love him,
>but... now this is what's so interesting, because how do you define
>love? Did Buffy f.ex. love Angel _more_ than say her mother? As my
>friend Anna once put it: "I don't think we love in amounts. We love in
>ways." And whichever way Buffy is loving Riley it's obviously not what
>he's looking for.
>
>Also we can go back to 'Something Blue' and the beginning of their
>relationship:
>
>Willow: The pain is not a friend.
>Buffy: But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes
>from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts,
>but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in
>hand with pain and fighting.
And as she points out in Pangs, she likes her evil like her men, evil.
>But then Angel is the only man she has loved before Riley... did he
>warp her?
To some extent, but the groundwork was already there in WttH/TH, and the
Master killing her probably warped her more than loving Angel (I've always
maintained that she never really emotionally recovered from that).
>Anyway, that's all just speculation. Another question that I was
>wondering was just how much older Riley is. Buffy is 19. Riley I'd put
>at maybe... 25? So it's possible that he is looking for something a lot
>more long term than she is. Or rather - I think he has been thinking of
>the long term, whereas she is content with being happy here and now.
And that feeds directly into my comment above. After Prophecy Girl, she
doesn't just know intellectually, but all the way to the core of her being,
that being the Slayer comes with an expiration date. If Riley is 25+, he's
already past her expiration date ("I come from a long line of fry cooks
that don't live past 25"). Of course she lives in the here and now,
because she's very well aware that she doesn't have a 'long-term'.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
peachy ashie passion
Oh, I'm guessing Riley is 21, 22.
Rowan Hawthorn
Not if he was taken from Special Ops training, which means he'd have
already been through Basic Training, and enough of Special Ops to show
his potential (otherwise he wouldn't have been chosen by the Initiative,
which obviously views its agents as an elite crew.) Also, we know he's
been with the Initiative long enough to be the "Platoon Leader," and
while we don't know his military rank, it's not likely that a Private
would be suddenly bumped up to Agent-in-Charge over a squad like the
Initiative without having *some* prior experience. That's a lot of
training and advancement for someone to get through in only 3 or 4 years.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Elisi wrote:
> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > The thing is, I disagree with Riley. Buffy does love him. What he's
> > not recognizing is that Buffy's life (and the writers) means she has
> > the man's emotionally closed role. Like in "Ghost" the hero would
> > never say "I love you," only "Ditto." That she's no longer gushy and
> > girly doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she doesn't
> > recognizes that she's with a man who needs her to be gushy and girly.
> > She doesn't show her vulnerabilities anymore.
> >
> > Riley's been raised in a culture that believe women are vulnerable and
> > emotional, and will behave so and if they aren't behaving so, must not
> > be so emotionally involved. But she IS emotionally involved, just not
> > emotionally open.
Those are good thoughts. Although the quote this was in response to is
certainly interesting, people should keep things like this in mind
before getting too hung up over stuff like the Three Little Words as a
litmus test for love.
I'm not sure where I stand on Buffy's feelings yet, but I'm inclined to
disagree with Riley treating it as a black-and-white thing. Given the
likelihood that future episodes will shed more light on things, no
further comment yet.
> As my
> friend Anna once put it: "I don't think we love in amounts. We love in
> ways."
Well, yeah.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> But the scene soon degenerates into a long-winded unnatural
> sounding monologue, which Brenden can't quite manage to save.
Yeah, some of these actors have names that're pretty hard to spell,
especially after only seeing them up on the screen eighty-one times.
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
wrote:
Might not be the demons choice: it might be the only option it has.
Scott Lurndal
>peachy ashie passion wrote:
>> Oh, I'm guessing Riley is 21, 22.
>
>Not if he was taken from Special Ops training, which means he'd have
>already been through Basic Training, and enough of Special Ops to show
>his potential (otherwise he wouldn't have been chosen by the Initiative,
>which obviously views its agents as an elite crew.) Also, we know he's
>been with the Initiative long enough to be the "Platoon Leader," and
>while we don't know his military rank, it's not likely that a Private
>would be suddenly bumped up to Agent-in-Charge over a squad like the
>Initiative without having *some* prior experience. That's a lot of
>training and advancement for someone to get through in only 3 or 4 years.
Not to mention that as class T.A., he is likely a graduate student (first or
second year, most likely) which would make him closer to 25 than 21.
scott
One Bit Shy
news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 3: "The Replacement"
> "Xander's really annoying me this week." - Mrs. Quality
One thing I admire about this episode in the sense of how it's constructed,
is that annoying Xander is probably the biggest clue to what is going on.
Even though the show is staged to make it seem he's the real Xander and that
competent Xander is an imposter, the way he acts is just as unnatural as
competent Xander. But we're so primed to accept the notion of butt-monkey
Xander that we look right past it. I fell for it just like you did.
> That statement above looked like it would do a good job explaining why
> some people would enjoy this episode while others would be annoyed. As
> he stumbles around the apartment they're looking at, looking rather
> spastically pathetic, those of us who try to see this character as
> something other than a bumbling idiot may cringe. While clownishness
> and loserdom are certainly big components of Xander, I've always felt
> that the show went overboard with that fairly often, keeping me from
> ever liking him as much as I could've. And then after getting hit by
> Toth's weapon, the episode goes on to thrill us with Xander generally
> acting out of his element, falling and hitting his head a lot, and so
> on... that didn't have me feeling very good about the show on first
> viewing. Naturally, it makes more sense in retrospect, once one sees
> that TR is all about bringing out his better side, without denying his
> fundamental Xander-ness.
I think in a sense that it actually is denying that. One of the interesting
things about the split is that competent Xander doesn't seem real because
nobody knew he existed. Not the audience. Not his friends. Not even
Xander himself. Even though, as you point out below, it's reality based.
We've seen signs of maturing going back to at least S3, but keep waiting for
that to actually make a difference. It's a shock to everyone to find that
he actually has changed and that everybody missed it. There's a nice little
life metaphor slipped in here. In Sunnydale it takes a demon device to get
the message across, but much the same thing happens to people in real life
frequently - where one day they suddenly realize they're very different from
what they used to be, but somehow missed it happening.
The no more butt-monkey line from Dracula resonates a bit more now. Which
is not to say that he's really leaving his fundamental Xander-ness behind,
or will never act foolishly again. But he is leaving a lot behind and
stepping forth as a different person.
> Other than the lame and obvious joke with the attempted massage, I
> liked the teaser with the kicking movie. Also enjoyed the bit with
> poor Spike losing his lamp. That's what you get for cheering for the
> Slayer's foes.
Slipped in here is a little male bonding between Xander and Riley in the
basement, at the dump, and then reinforced big time at the end.
> Where is Anya's "own place?" Did we ever find out?
I don't know where it's located, but that's where Xander was when he got the
gun.
> One thing that kept me interested is that the parts in which Suave
> Xander takes the reigns begin to make the case that there is more to
> our Zeppo than the buffonery. All of Suave Xander's successes are
> based on things that were already there: he's been impressing people
> at work for months, his credit rating is as good as his penmanship, his
> geeky jokes can amuse the apartment woman under the right
> circumstances, he's managed to get into Anya's heart and sometimes
> knows just what to say to her, and he's always looked that good with
> his shirt off. These sequences also work even better once one knows
> that the effects are genuine, not just the result of the Flattened Coin
> Of Doom.
Ah, that brings back fond childhood memories of me putting coins on railroad
tracks. (It still makes my mother shiver to know that I used to play by the
railroad tracks.) Smushy Washington - or maybe Jefferson - really is kinda
cool.
> The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
"My friend Sharon's older brother knows a girl who died because she choked
on her boyfriend's tongue." Cracks me up everytime. As does the preceding
gagging. I remember kids like that. Though maybe I should be concerned
about the psychological damage Joyce is doing to her daughters by blaming
her headaches on them.
Please note, incidentally, the reference to Dawn's friend. You were
concerned about that last episode.
> What feels like it should have been one of the highlights of the
> episode is the chat between Lame Xander and Willow. He spastically
> tells her to look into his eyes (there's a lot of eye-looking-into in
> this series). The, through things that only they would know, he's
> able to convince her that he is who he says he is (I'd have objected
> if she hadn't been won over), and we get to see them interact as old
> friends. But the scene soon degenerates into a long-winded unnatural
> sounding monologue, which Brenden can't quite manage to save.
> Willow's reactions don't help the scene either, since Hannigan's
> performance is uncharacteristically flat throughout. I was
> disappointed.
You may be right, but it is a confusing time for them both. Willow is
thrown at least four times in that scene. First with Xander wanting to
prove he's Xander. (The Snoopy dance seems a nice solution.) Then, when
that gets explained, with Xander acting so strange. This is when the
unnaturalness of annoying Xander gets most extreme and he wants to just
throw in the towel and let capable Xander have his life. "But I never help.
I get in trouble and Buffy saves me." That had to be very weird to Willow.
Then, as she adapts to consoling Xander, he gets all revved up about needing
Anya, and we see that Willow still doesn't like Anya. Finally with the
terrific closing lines:
Xander: Hey, wait till you have an evil twin. See how you handle it.
Willow: (pouts) I handled it fine.
So the scene jumps around a lot. Along with sopping wet Xander dripping
everywhere and wringing out his clothes and splattering Willow to add as
distraction.
> This episode does some good work with Anya, both as comic relief and
> with exploring her continued adjustment to human life.
Anya's list of things to do - boat, puppy, child - is a nice example of what
I like so much about how her character is written. The poignancy is all
through the comedy with neither spared in the slightest. Her fear of
mortality represented as whether Xander will love her with false teeth. All
the struggles of life - from the great to the banal - come across as novel
discoveries through her and serve to undercut our own jaded cynical views.
> Buffy and Riley's brief exchange, carefully shot so as to avoid
> absolutely confirming my belief that the car isn't moving,
Yeah, as long as you don't hear all the silly revving of the engine as if
he's maneuvering a sports car through an obstacle course.
> The question of why Anya or Xander (I'm not clear on whose it is)
> would keep a loaded pistol lying around is worth thinking about.
It's Anya's gun. We don't know if Anya kept it loaded. Xander probably
knew how to load it.
> Despite all his self-esteem issues, Xander seems to
> fundamentally like himself - the whole package. I'm sure Anya
> feeling similarly doesn't hurt.
Good. I'm glad you saw that. Like the Zeppo, part of the point here is
making Xander comfortable with himself. But, unlike the Zeppo, when he let
himself be at ease with his place in the world, this time he's looking ahead
to the possibilities of the world, maybe even some ambition.
> RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
> wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
> me, then.
What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
out?
Also, did you notice how eager Riley was to go out and kill the demon -
twice this episode I believe he got all revved up to do some mayhem.
> XANDERS: KILL US BOTH, SPOCK! [both start laughing hysterically, along
> with this viewer]
Followed by my personal favorite line of the episode.
Buffy: They're ... kinda the same now.
Giles: Yes, he's clearly a bad influence on himself.
> We close with a Xander/Riley scene that seems to be dragging us on a
> bit of a melodramatic ride as he waxes on about how his love for Buffy
> is just so spayshul... and then, "but she doesn't love me." End
> of episode. I guess this is "end with a surprise" year, as the
> writers once again catch the viewer off guard with a little moment
> that'll get his attention in the last few seconds. Well, it's
> noteworthy. And the man has tended to know what he was talking about
> with regards to such things in the past few episodes...
Not to downgrade Riley's part at all, because, yes, that's a real stunner to
end a show... but I don't want to lose touch with Xander's part in that
scene either. I think it's a decent character moment for him. As I
mentioned, there has been a little bit of male bonding going on with him and
Riley - which is probably why Riley was willing to tell that to Xander.
Which hits Xander hard. He's probably sifting a number of things through
his head. His sympathy for his friend, Riley. His long standing bond with
Buffy, now pondering what this means to her. And how this revelation
clarifies the meaning of his own relationship with Anya - how Riley's kind
words about that were also words of envy. Xander has what Riley yearns for.
All of this bringing home the notion that the Xander leaving this episode is
more aware, more sophisticated, more mature. He sees, he understands, and
people confide in him.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty fun, and actually does something
> worthwhile with Mr. Harris for once.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Good for me too. Again, very close to Excellent. The three episodes
opening the season are virtually tied in quality to me.
Ok. Now both of S4's lost boys (Giles and Xander) have had major upswings
in their lives. How long do you suppose we can keep this up?
OBS
One Bit Shy
There's also a Sunnydale answer to this. People are assuming that demons
would act logically according to our standards, but their very existence
commonly is drawn from the fears and anxieties of humans. This story is
about the natural splits in people's nature. Mostly about Xander here - but
also about Buffy. (And according to Riley, about him too.) By Sunnydale
standards, it's that dichotomy that literally draws the demon. Shotguns
wouldn't fit that.
OBS
Espen Schjønberg
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
>>me, then.
>
>
> What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
> out?
Because he is an idiot?
> Good for me too. Again, very close to Excellent. The three episodes
> opening the season are virtually tied in quality to me.
>
> Ok. Now both of S4's lost boys (Giles and Xander) have had major upswings
> in their lives. How long do you suppose we can keep this up?
It changes colour after the previously unknown older brother suddenly
appears.
No, sorry, thats a spoiler...;-)
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Exp315
Apteryx wrote:
> despite a great beginning, the demon is pretty lame himself in operation -
> partly just cheesy, partly the usual dumb villain. His plan is to get close
> enough to the Slayer to blast her with something, and all he wants to blast
> her with is something that will separate her two sides. Why not something
> that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate her
> from this mortal coil.
Lbh'er nffhzvat gung Gbgu'f jrncba jbhyq unir n fvzvyne rssrpg ba Ohssl
gung vg unq ba Knaqre, ohg znlor abg. Nsgre nyy, jr xabj gung Ohssl'f
Fynlre cbjre pnzr sebz orvat vashfrq jvgu gur rffrapr bs n qrzba.
Jbhyqa'g gur yvxryl rssrpg or gb frcnengr gung qrzba rffrapr sebz gur
erfvqhny uhzna Ohssl? Gung jbhyq pregnvayl znxr gur uhzna Ohssl rnfl gb
xvyy, be rira whfg veeryrinag. Jub xabjf jung jbhyq unccra gb gur qrzba
cneg? - znlor Gbgu jbhyq nofbeo vg naq tnva gur cbjre.
Don Sample
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> > The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
>
> Nethnoyl gur zbfg fvtavsvpnag fprar va gur rcvfbqr, jvgu Wblpr'f svefg
> urnqnpur.
Fbzrgvzrf na urnqnpur vf whfg n urnqnpur.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <MBan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
>
> I really meant to watch this episode last night so it would be fresh in
> my mind and couldn't, I'll watch it tonight so that I can actually
> remember this darn scene.
>
It was a mother and daughters interacting scene, of no great import.
But it wasn't badly done. Largely there because they put MT on the
payroll, so they had to do something with her.
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
<SNIP>
>
>One-sentence summary: Pretty fun, and actually does something
>worthwhile with Mr. Harris for once.
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
>[Season Five so far:
>1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
>2) "Real Me" - Decent
>3) "The Replacement" - Good]
I would have thought just "Kill us both Spock" was enough for a simple
Good.
I didn't care for the manipulation and red herrings which seemed heavy
handed (like the implied threat to Anya about pretty soon she wouldn't
be worrying about getting old), but I thought it a fun episode with
some further insights about the dynamics of the group (including Spike
being on Toth's side).
So I go with Good(+) again, almost an Excellent(-).
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
> > wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
> > me, then.
>
> What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
> out?
Because he's a psychology grad student, and qualified to say "Hmmm."
yamsham
Although it's not spoken, Buffy's feeling are evident even at the beginning
of BVD. She hops out of bed, after presumably she and Riley have made love,
to go prowling for vamps. Granted, the need to hunt is probably a side
effect from channeling the First Slayer at the end of S4. But at the same
time...she hops out of bed after presumably making love to her boyfriend.
Riley's not scratching the itch, physically and emotionally, and his
declaration this episode makes it clear he knows it.
One Bit Shy
news:e6ab82pu5e0m0k9jn...@4ax.com...
> On 6 Jun 2006 07:48:53 -0700, "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> The thing is, I disagree with Riley. Buffy does love him. What he's
>>> not recognizing is that Buffy's life (and the writers) means she has
>>> the man's emotionally closed role. Like in "Ghost" the hero would
>>> never say "I love you," only "Ditto." That she's no longer gushy and
>>> girly doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she doesn't
>>> recognizes that she's with a man who needs her to be gushy and girly.
>>> She doesn't show her vulnerabilities anymore.
>>>
>>> Riley's been raised in a culture that believe women are vulnerable and
>>> emotional, and will behave so and if they aren't behaving so, must not
>>> be so emotionally involved. But she IS emotionally involved, just not
>>> emotionally open.
>
> The thing is, we've never seen an 'emotionally open' Buffy. The character
> has always been an emotional gunnysacker who packs her emotions away,
> until
> they spill out at inconvenient times. The only person to whom she has
> spoken the the Three Words with any ease or openness is Willow, and there
> it is safe (on her part) because it is so clearly agape (on her part).
>
>>But seriously - can you be emotionally involved, if you're not open?
>
> Short answer: Yes.
Though that can be very difficult to accept for people who naturally express
feelings openly. People pretty strongly tend to understand the world
according to their own feelings. If they don't see a feeling the way they
feel it, then it must not be there.
I wonder if there could be an aspect of deception involved. In Buffy's
normal world, open feelings are expressed neuroticly. Riley expresses them
through farm boy openness. Just as open, but it looks so easy and even
tempered that Buffy might be deceived herself who is the passionate one.
Lastly, what I really suspect as that the disconnect between them isn't
different depth of feeling, but rather different needs. I think that what
they fill in each other matters deeply to both, but are very different.
They're simply on different pages, and it may be nigh on impossible to get
them in synch.
OBS
KenM47
>In article <e637qo$96p$1...@nntp.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> > threads.
>
>> > The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
>>
>> Nethnoyl gur zbfg fvtavsvpnag fprar va gur rcvfbqr, jvgu Wblpr'f svefg
>> urnqnpur.
>
>Fbzrgvzrf na urnqnpur vf whfg n urnqnpur.
Well, I think you know my view on that.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-E267C6...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <128bjn8...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
>> > wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
>> > me, then.
>>
>> What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
>> out?
>
> Because he's a psychology grad student, and qualified to say "Hmmm."
Good point. Maybe that's enough. Still seems kind of creepy to me to be
coming from a former subject of experiments.
OBS
KenM47
I think she expressed herself all over the place with Angel. Seems
pretty clear she's decided that's who she loves in classic romantic
sense, while Riley is runner up for whatever it is that's like love
but isn't quite. And Buffy can't bring herself to lie to Riley's face.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
>news:dsample-E267C6...@news.giganews.com...
>> In article <128bjn8...@news.supernews.com>,
>> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>
>>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> > RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
>>> > wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
>>> > me, then.
>>>
>>> What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
>>> out?
>>
>> Because he's a psychology grad student, and qualified to say "Hmmm."
>
>Good point. Maybe that's enough. Still seems kind of creepy to me to be
>coming from a former subject of experiments.
>
>OBS
>
Never bothered me.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Opus the Penguin
Hey now. Be nice to the new guy.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-E267C6...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <128bjn8...@news.supernews.com>,
> > "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> > RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
> >> > wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
> >> > me, then.
> >>
> >> What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
> >> out?
> >
> > Because he's a psychology grad student, and qualified to say "Hmmm."
>
> Good point. Maybe that's enough. Still seems kind of creepy to me to be
> coming from a former subject of experiments.
when last we met you were the master and i was the student
now i am the master
only a master of psychology darth riley
if you strike me down you will make stronger than i was
(nsgre svefg fcraqvat n lrne fcbvxobvaxvat)
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Arbitrar Of Quality
Good point.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Although it's not spoken, Buffy's feeling are evident even at the beginning
> of BVD. She hops out of bed, after presumably she and Riley have made love,
> to go prowling for vamps. Granted, the need to hunt is probably a side
> effect from channeling the First Slayer at the end of S4. But at the same
> time...she hops out of bed after presumably making love to her boyfriend.
> Riley's not scratching the itch, physically and emotionally, and his
> declaration this episode makes it clear he knows it.
I know stuff shown on TV tends to be all meaningful and stuff, but
there's nothing wrong or unusual about not going to sleep after having
sex.
Now, I'm not arguing that the writers weren't trying to show that sex
wasn't satisfying her the way the hunt was, but that's not necessarily
a Riley-specific issue.
-AOQ
~love the username, by the way~
Elisi
> Now, I'm not arguing that the writers weren't trying to show that sex
> wasn't satisfying her the way the hunt was, but that's not necessarily
> a Riley-specific issue.
Well when she was dating Angel she got _no_ sex... (except that one
time, yadda, yadda.)
Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate. I'm still not sure what to make of it
all even now, so it's very refreshing to have someone look at the whole
thing with fresh eyes. :)
Michael Ikeda
And there's also Adam's remark from last season about demons being
"hopeless with technology". Perhaps Toth simply can't work a
shotgun.
There's also the possibility that he simply thinks it's beneath his
dignity to use some new-fangled HUMAN device.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> We close with a Xander/Riley scene that seems to be dragging us on a
> bit of a melodramatic ride as he waxes on about how his love for Buffy
> is just so spayshul... and then, "but she doesn't love me." End
> of episode. I guess this is "end with a surprise" year, as the
> writers once again catch the viewer off guard with a little moment
> that'll get his attention in the last few seconds. Well, it's
> noteworthy. And the man has tended to know what he was talking about
> with regards to such things in the past few episodes...
Riley is having self-esteem and identity issues of his own, and having
just seen Xander deal with them in metaphorical fashion, this is the
perfect time for him to let his doubts out in the open.
It was all right that Buffy was the super hero before, but now
everything that he knew about himself has been stripped away, and he no
longer feels adequate.
Riley has lost his super soldier secret identity. He has lost his
corporate identity as a leader in a military organization. He has lost
his faith in his mentor. He has lost faith in the government that
fostered him. He has even managed to get the crap beaten out of him by
Buffy's previous boyfriend. On top of everything, she has been withdrawn
and has concealed important information from him about her experiences
with Dracula. At bottom, he thinks that doesn't deserve to be Buffy's
guy, and he thinks that she must feel that way, too.
That doesn't mean that he is right about Buffy's feelings for him,
however. It just means that he might not be seeing past his own feelings
of unworthiness and confusion about his own place in the world.
HWL
Apteryx
news:1149611152.1...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>
>> And
>> despite a great beginning, the demon is pretty lame himself in
>> operation -
>> partly just cheesy, partly the usual dumb villain. His plan is to get
>> close
>> enough to the Slayer to blast her with something, and all he wants to
>> blast
>> her with is something that will separate her two sides. Why not something
>> that will separate her left half from her right half, or just separate
>> her
>> from this mortal coil.
>
> I'm not obsessing much over that, just because this is one of those
> episodes where the villain seems irrelevant to the point of
> non-factor-ness. Yeah, it's a dumb monster, but at least it's
> something new and different; people have tried to gun down Buffy or
> blow her up before, without much more success.
I'm not really obsessing either. The episode is still a goodish Decent -
4.87 in my ratings. That means I like it a little better than Rashomon and
Blue Velvet, and not quite as much as The Godfather and the original Dracula
:)
But I can't help asking myself at the end of it - did that demon sit down
and plan the best way to kill Buffy and that was the best he could come up
with, or was that just a transparent device to split the two sides of
Xander? Even so, the demon still has his cool moments, especially when he is
recharging his Rod of Plot Device in the big cauldron.
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> "hopeless with technology". Perhaps Toth simply can't work a
> shotgun.
dont know how whedon feels about guns in general
but within the context of the series he has commented
that guns make killing too easy and take away the dramatic confrontations
Apteryx
> In article <e637qo$96p$1...@nntp.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> > threads.
>
>> > The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
>>
>> Nethnoyl gur zbfg fvtavsvpnag fprar va gur rcvfbqr, jvgu Wblpr'f svefg
>> urnqnpur.
>
> Fbzrgvzrf na urnqnpur vf whfg n urnqnpur.
V qba'g fhofpevor gb gur gurbel gung Wblpr'f vyyarff jnf pnhfr ol cebkvzvgl
gur Gur Xrl. V guvax gurer unf orra gbb yvggyr erfrnepu qbar ba gur rssrpgf
bs cebybatrq cebkvzvgl gb zlfgvpny qrivprf gb nyybj gung qvntabfvf. Ohg sbe
rirel ghzbhe gurer vf n gvzr jura vg svefg fubjf flzcgbzf, naq sebz jung jr
frr yngre, V arire qbhogrq gung guvf jnf gung zbzrag sbe ure ghzbhe
--
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
>I know stuff shown on TV tends to be all meaningful and stuff, but
>there's nothing wrong or unusual about not going to sleep after having
>sex.
Not going to sleep straight away, sure.
Sneaking out of the house to spend an hour getting all hot and sweaty
with a vampire, until she plunges her thick wooden stake deep into his
chest to give him that moment of final release... then sneaking back
into bed without waking Riley up?
Well, I dunno about you, but personally I think there may at least be
a *hint* of symbolism there...
Stephen
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
>
Bar guvat V abgvprq va guvf fprar vf Wblpr'f urnqnpur. Gung frrzf gb or
n yvggyr fbba vs Qnja vf vaqrrq gur pnhfr bs gurz naq gur ghzbe. Fur'f
bayl orra nebhaq sbe n yvggyr zber guna n shyy rcvfbqr, va Ohssl gvzr,
znlor n pbhcyr bs jrrxf.
Mel
Mel
Apteryx wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
>>The question of why Anya or Xander (I'm not clear on whose it is)
>>would keep a loaded pistol lying around is worth thinking about.
>
>
> Anya says its hers. Ex vengeance demon? Its not hard to imagine she has
> enemies.
Not only that, but it's not hard to imagine she might be a little afraid
of even non-enemies since she no longer has demon strength with which to
protect herself. Of course, hiding the gun in her underwear drawer
doesn't really help much.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Sneaking out of the house to spend an hour getting all hot and sweaty
> with a vampire, until she plunges her thick wooden stake deep into his
> chest to give him that moment of final release... then sneaking back
> into bed without waking Riley up?
>
> Well, I dunno about you, but personally I think there may at least be
> a *hint* of symbolism there...
I already know about Buffy's sex-change in S6, so you don't need to
dance around it.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
yes but change into what sex is still to be disclosed
KenM47
Jryy, ubj ovt n ohefg bs raretl jnf erdhverq gb perngr Qnja va gur
svefg cynpr? Erzrzore, Wblpr qbrf abg unir Ohssl'f urnyvat novyvgvrf.
Nf sne nf jr xabj gur vafregvba cbvag jnf gur raq bs OiQ jura bayl
Ohssl naq Wblpr jrer nebhaq.
Ken (Brooklyn)
peachy ashie passion
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>peachy ashie passion wrote:
>
>
>>> Oh, I'm guessing Riley is 21, 22.
>>
>>Not if he was taken from Special Ops training, which means he'd have
>>already been through Basic Training, and enough of Special Ops to show
>>his potential (otherwise he wouldn't have been chosen by the Initiative,
>>which obviously views its agents as an elite crew.) Also, we know he's
>>been with the Initiative long enough to be the "Platoon Leader," and
>>while we don't know his military rank, it's not likely that a Private
>>would be suddenly bumped up to Agent-in-Charge over a squad like the
>>Initiative without having *some* prior experience. That's a lot of
>>training and advancement for someone to get through in only 3 or 4 years.
>
>
> Not to mention that as class T.A., he is likely a graduate student (first or
> second year, most likely) which would make him closer to 25 than 21.
>
> scott
Yes and no. Usually, yes. Not always.
And in this particular case, TAing for his military commander, any
and all credentials could be created rather than earned.
peachy ashie passion
> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>
>> Elisi wrote:
>>
>>> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> The thing is, I disagree with Riley. Buffy does love him. What he's
>>>> not recognizing is that Buffy's life (and the writers) means she has
>>>> the man's emotionally closed role. Like in "Ghost" the hero would
>>>> never say "I love you," only "Ditto." That she's no longer gushy and
>>>> girly doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she doesn't
>>>> recognizes that she's with a man who needs her to be gushy and girly.
>>>> She doesn't show her vulnerabilities anymore.
>>>>
>>>> Riley's been raised in a culture that believe women are vulnerable and
>>>> emotional, and will behave so and if they aren't behaving so, must not
>>>> be so emotionally involved. But she IS emotionally involved, just not
>>>> emotionally open.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Very interesting points - hey maybe Buffy should find herself someone
>>> like Tara? ;)
>>>
>>> But seriously - can you be emotionally involved, if you're not open?
>>>
>>> See I think she has feelings for Riley - she might even love him,
>>> but... now this is what's so interesting, because how do you define
>>> love? Did Buffy f.ex. love Angel _more_ than say her mother? As my
>>> friend Anna once put it: "I don't think we love in amounts. We love in
>>> ways." And whichever way Buffy is loving Riley it's obviously not what
>>> he's looking for.
>>>
>>> Also we can go back to 'Something Blue' and the beginning of their
>>> relationship:
>>>
>>> Willow: The pain is not a friend.
>>> Buffy: But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes
>>> from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts,
>>> but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in
>>> hand with pain and fighting.
>>>
>>> But then Angel is the only man she has loved before Riley... did he
>>> warp her?
>>>
>>> Anyway, that's all just speculation. Another question that I was
>>> wondering was just how much older Riley is. Buffy is 19. Riley I'd put
>>> at maybe... 25? So it's possible that he is looking for something a lot
>>> more long term than she is. Or rather - I think he has been thinking of
>>> the long term, whereas she is content with being happy here and now.
>>>
>>> And now I'll go away and stop speculating aimlessly. I hope you don't
>>> mind?
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I'm guessing Riley is 21, 22.
>
>
> Not if he was taken from Special Ops training, which means he'd have
> already been through Basic Training, and enough of Special Ops to show
> his potential (otherwise he wouldn't have been chosen by the Initiative,
> which obviously views its agents as an elite crew.) Also, we know he's
> been with the Initiative long enough to be the "Platoon Leader," and
> while we don't know his military rank, it's not likely that a Private
> would be suddenly bumped up to Agent-in-Charge over a squad like the
> Initiative without having *some* prior experience. That's a lot of
> training and advancement for someone to get through in only 3 or 4 years.
>
Ok, figure he does boot at 18, gets bumped up a rank or two there.
Then special ops training, which is 24 weeks, and that's long enough to
put him up a rank, and he's still 18 years old and ready to be plucked
straight from there and into the special special training for the
monster squad.
Then he's still got a couple of years to show his stuff before we get
to him.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Then special ops training, which is 24 weeks, and that's long enough to
> put him up a rank, and he's still 18 years old and ready to be plucked
> straight from there and into the special special training for the
> monster squad.
if hes an officer other than usmc then he has bachelors degree
and really would be a postgraduate student as ta
Don Sample
peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> > Not to mention that as class T.A., he is likely a graduate student
> > (first or second year, most likely) which would make him closer to
> > 25 than 21.
> >
> > scott
>
> Yes and no. Usually, yes. Not always.
Buffy says that he's a grad student in 'Doomed.'
> And in this particular case, TAing for his military commander, any
> and all credentials could be created rather than earned.
I always figured Riley for a West Point type, probably graduated from
there with a psychology degree.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Riley was always shown to be the top ranking military person in the
Initiative, until they sent in a colonel to take over. That means that
he was most likely an officer. A captain at least, given what his
responsibilities were. That means that he is a university graduate.
peachy ashie passion
> In article <H8qhg.6231$im3.1405@trnddc01>,
> peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Not to mention that as class T.A., he is likely a graduate student
>>>(first or second year, most likely) which would make him closer to
>>>25 than 21.
>>>
>>>scott
>>
>> Yes and no. Usually, yes. Not always.
>
>
> Buffy says that he's a grad student in 'Doomed.'
>
>
>
>> And in this particular case, TAing for his military commander, any
>>and all credentials could be created rather than earned.
>
>
> I always figured Riley for a West Point type, probably graduated from
> there with a psychology degree.
>
I'd have never dreamed West Point offered one. Go figure.
I'm more familiar with Annapolis, where they seem to think they are
above such things.
George W Harris
wrote:
:There's also a Sunnydale answer to this. People are assuming that demons
:would act logically according to our standards, but their very existence
:commonly is drawn from the fears and anxieties of humans. This story is
:about the natural splits in people's nature. Mostly about Xander here - but
:also about Buffy. (And according to Riley, about him too.) By Sunnydale
:standards, it's that dichotomy that literally draws the demon. Shotguns
:wouldn't fit that.
Well, except for double-barreled shotguns.
:
:OBS
:
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
wrote:
:"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
Jnf guvf gur qebccvat gur cyngr, "Jub ner lbh?" zbzrag?
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
Don Sample
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:40:25 +1200, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> :"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> :news:dsample-A00E35...@news.giganews.com...
> :> In article <e637qo$96p$1...@nntp.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> :> wrote:
> :>
> :>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> :>> news:1149568010.6...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> :>> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> :>> > threads.
> :>
> :>> > The Buffy/Dawn/Joyce scene has an official invitation to blow me.
> :>>
> :>> Nethnoyl gur zbfg fvtavsvpnag fprar va gur rcvfbqr, jvgu Wblpr'f svefg
> :>> urnqnpur.
> :>
> :> Fbzrgvzrf na urnqnpur vf whfg n urnqnpur.
> :
> :V qba'g fhofpevor gb gur gurbel gung Wblpr'f vyyarff jnf pnhfr ol cebkvzvgl
> :gur Gur Xrl. V guvax gurer unf orra gbb yvggyr erfrnepu qbar ba gur rssrpgf
> :bs cebybatrq cebkvzvgl gb zlfgvpny qrivprf gb nyybj gung qvntabfvf. Ohg sbe
> :rirel ghzbhe gurer vf n gvzr jura vg svefg fubjf flzcgbzf, naq sebz jung jr
> :frr yngre, V arire qbhogrq gung guvf jnf gung zbzrag sbe ure ghzbhe
>
> Jnf guvf gur qebccvat gur cyngr, "Jub ner lbh?" zbzrag?
Ab, guvf jnf gur "Guvf zhfg or zl gjb grrantr tveyf va gur ubhfr
urnqnpur," zbzrag. Gur cyngr vf arkg rcvfbqr.
Don Sample
peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
>
> > In article <H8qhg.6231$im3.1405@trnddc01>,
> > peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Not to mention that as class T.A., he is likely a graduate student
> >>>(first or second year, most likely) which would make him closer to
> >>>25 than 21.
> >>>
> >>>scott
> >>
> >> Yes and no. Usually, yes. Not always.
> >
> >
> > Buffy says that he's a grad student in 'Doomed.'
> >
> >
> >
> >> And in this particular case, TAing for his military commander, any
> >>and all credentials could be created rather than earned.
> >
> >
> > I always figured Riley for a West Point type, probably graduated from
> > there with a psychology degree.
> >
>
>
> I'd have never dreamed West Point offered one. Go figure.
They do:
<http://www.dean.usma.edu/departments/bsl/programs/Psych/default.cfm>
One Bit Shy
news:poec82pvcm0vuk1r5...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:03:54 -0400, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>
> wrote:
>
> :There's also a Sunnydale answer to this. People are assuming that demons
> :would act logically according to our standards, but their very existence
> :commonly is drawn from the fears and anxieties of humans. This story is
> :about the natural splits in people's nature. Mostly about Xander here -
> but
> :also about Buffy. (And according to Riley, about him too.) By Sunnydale
> :standards, it's that dichotomy that literally draws the demon. Shotguns
> :wouldn't fit that.
>
> Well, except for double-barreled shotguns.
LOL! I stand corrected. What the hell is wrong with that demon using that
stupid weenie stick?
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:03:54 -0400, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>
> wrote:
>
> :There's also a Sunnydale answer to this. People are assuming that demons
> :would act logically according to our standards, but their very existence
> :commonly is drawn from the fears and anxieties of humans. This story is
> :about the natural splits in people's nature. Mostly about Xander here - but
> :also about Buffy. (And according to Riley, about him too.) By Sunnydale
> :standards, it's that dichotomy that literally draws the demon. Shotguns
> :wouldn't fit that.
>
> Well, except for double-barreled shotguns.
fcvxr arrqf fbzrguvat gb znxr uvzfrys srry nyy znayl
peachy ashie passion
> In article <7Pqhg.6264$im3.3466@trnddc01>,
> peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Don Sample wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <H8qhg.6231$im3.1405@trnddc01>,
>>> peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not to mention that as class T.A., he is likely a graduate student
>>>>>(first or second year, most likely) which would make him closer to
>>>>>25 than 21.
>>>>>
>>>>>scott
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. Usually, yes. Not always.
>>>
>>>
>>>Buffy says that he's a grad student in 'Doomed.'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And in this particular case, TAing for his military commander, any
>>>>and all credentials could be created rather than earned.
>>>
>>>
>>>I always figured Riley for a West Point type, probably graduated from
>>>there with a psychology degree.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'd have never dreamed West Point offered one. Go figure.
>
>
> They do:
> <http://www.dean.usma.edu/departments/bsl/programs/Psych/default.cfm>
>
Yes, I looked it up before I answered.
William George Ferguson
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>Riley was always shown to be the top ranking military person in the
>Initiative, until they sent in a colonel to take over. That means that
>he was most likely an officer. A captain at least, given what his
>responsibilities were. That means that he is a university graduate.
Isn't he actually referred to by rank at one point (Major, I think)? That
may be a future reference though.
In any case, definitely an officer, and in that case, since the early 70s,
definitely at least a bachelor's degree. It is, of course, possible to get
a bachelor's degree before you turn 20 (Felicia Day got her Bachelor's in
Mathematics, and was the student commencement speaker at UT-Austin, when
she was 19, The Panabaker sisters are both on track to get their bachelor's
degrees from UCLA before they turn 20, Danielle turned 18 last August and
started her Junior year the following week, Kay starts her Junior year this
fall, at 16 [Kay's on-topic, Danielle isn't]), but the background Riley has
been indicated to have pretty much means he's in his mid to late 20s,
possibly even over 30.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >In article <0eqhg.6244$im3.2056@trnddc01>,
> > peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ok, figure he does boot at 18, gets bumped up a rank or two there.
> >> Then special ops training, which is 24 weeks, and that's long enough to
> >> put him up a rank, and he's still 18 years old and ready to be plucked
> >> straight from there and into the special special training for the
> >> monster squad.
> >>
> >> Then he's still got a couple of years to show his stuff before we get
> >> to him.
>
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >Riley was always shown to be the top ranking military person in the
> >Initiative, until they sent in a colonel to take over. That means that
> >he was most likely an officer. A captain at least, given what his
> >responsibilities were. That means that he is a university graduate.
>
> Isn't he actually referred to by rank at one point (Major, I think)? That
> may be a future reference though.
No rank for Riley was ever mentioned.
Gur bssvpre va pbzznaq bs gur tebhc gung fubjf hc ybbxvat sbe gur
Dhryybe qrzba jnf n Znwbe. Evyrl qvqa'g frrz gb qrsre zhpu gb uvz,
gubhtu, gur jnl ur jbhyq vs gung Znwbe unq bhgenaxrq uvz. Rira gubhtu
Evyrl'f n pvivyvna abj, lbh pna gnxr gur obl bhg bs gur Nezl, ohg lbh
pna'g gnxr gur Nezl bhg bs gur obl.
Michael Ikeda
news:hwlabadiejr-4B90...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews
.net:
>
> That doesn't mean that he is right about Buffy's feelings for
> him, however. It just means that he might not be seeing past his
> own feelings of unworthiness and confusion about his own place
> in the world.
>
And his statement at the end of "The Replacement" fits in with his
jealousy and insecurity in "Buffy vs. Dracula". Although, ironically
it actually served a useful purpose there. A more secure Riley might
not have noticed that something was wrong with Buffy.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Mel
No. Buffy and Dawn are arguing and Joyce says they are giving her a
headache.
Mel
James Craine
Apteryx wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149611152.1...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Apteryx wrote:
>>
>>
> But I can't help asking myself at the end of it - did that demon sit down
> and plan the best way to kill Buffy and that was the best he could come up
> with, or was that just a transparent device to split the two sides of
> Xander? Even so, the demon still has his cool moments, especially when he is
> recharging his Rod of Plot Device in the big cauldron.
>
I think that the only GOOD 'someone is trying to kill ..?..'
plots are when it has to be done secretly and quietly.
Otherwise T' has the right idea. Catch them when they can't
react and shoot them 6 times in the head. Elaborate plots
and crazy schemes just are not believable. If one member of
a group wants to kill another member of the group, and can't
afford for anyone to know he maybe should be considered a
suspect then an elaborate plot can work, otherwise it
doesn't for me. (Columbo had some good ideas along those lines.)
Any sensible killer could kill Buffy almost any time. That
is why she is SUPPOSED to keep her slayer identity a secret.
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
Didn't someone once call him Captain America? :-)
Mel
peachy ashie passion
I don't see how your math adds up, can you walk me through it?
Don Sample
If we assume that Riley is a captain, and that he wasn't some sort of
child protege, he would have entered college at 18.
He graduates with a bachelors degree, enters the army at 22 as a 2nd LT.
Army regulations require that you spend a minimum of 2 years as a 2nd LT
before you can be promoted to 1st LT, and another 2 years as a 1st LT
before you can be promoted to captain. You generally have to spend 4
years as a captain before you can be promoted to major. (Outstanding
officers may get a below the zone promotion to major. There are some
indications that Riley was considered to be an outstanding officer
before the events of NMR.)
So, if Riley is a captain, he's at least 26 years old. If he's a major,
he's closer to 30.
Paul Hyett
>
>If we assume that Riley is a captain, and that he wasn't some sort of
>child protege, he would have entered college at 18.
>
>He graduates with a bachelors degree, enters the army at 22 as a 2nd LT.
>
>Army regulations require that you spend a minimum of 2 years as a 2nd LT
>before you can be promoted to 1st LT, and another 2 years as a 1st LT
>before you can be promoted to captain. You generally have to spend 4
>years as a captain before you can be promoted to major. (Outstanding
>officers may get a below the zone promotion to major. There are some
>indications that Riley was considered to be an outstanding officer
>before the events of NMR.)
I assume these time periods apply just to peacetime, though?
I'd have though if there was a war on, you'd need to promote the most
able people ASAP, regardless of normal regulations.
>
>So, if Riley is a captain, he's at least 26 years old. If he's a major,
>he's closer to 30.
>
IMO he's no more than mid-20's.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Don Sample
Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer on Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Don Sample wrote :
> >
> >If we assume that Riley is a captain, and that he wasn't some sort of
> >child protege, he would have entered college at 18.
> >
> >He graduates with a bachelors degree, enters the army at 22 as a 2nd LT.
> >
> >Army regulations require that you spend a minimum of 2 years as a 2nd LT
> >before you can be promoted to 1st LT, and another 2 years as a 1st LT
> >before you can be promoted to captain. You generally have to spend 4
> >years as a captain before you can be promoted to major. (Outstanding
> >officers may get a below the zone promotion to major. There are some
> >indications that Riley was considered to be an outstanding officer
> >before the events of NMR.)
>
> I assume these time periods apply just to peacetime, though?
Which was the case for all of Riley's military career. Even in recent
wartime, the US hasn't been having a high enough casualty rate among its
officers to really do much about changing the time-in-rank rules for
promotions. Those are the _minimum_ requirements. You can spend longer
in rank: 3.5 years as a 2nd LT, 5 years as an 1st LT, 7 years as a
captain. (If you haven't been promoted at the end of that time, you get
a discharge.)
> I'd have though if there was a war on, you'd need to promote the most
> able people ASAP, regardless of normal regulations.
There can be brevet promotions if you have a hole that needs filling,
but as soon as hostilities end, the officer will likely revert back to
his old rank.
And there wasn't a war on for any of Riley's career. The Gulf War was
in 1990. For Riley to have participated in it, he'd have to be in his
30s by this point.
yamsham
> And there wasn't a war on for any of Riley's career. The Gulf War was
> in 1990. For Riley to have participated in it, he'd have to be in his
> 30s by this point.
>
Not a real war, but surely fighting vamps and demons was considered a covert
"military action". Were they getting combat pay for all the risk they were
taking? I hope so.
And Riley was one of Walsh's pet projects. It's possible she had him
promoted faster than normal.
Don Sample
"yamsham" <yam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-C3E979...@news.giganews.com...
>
> > And there wasn't a war on for any of Riley's career. The Gulf War was
> > in 1990. For Riley to have participated in it, he'd have to be in his
> > 30s by this point.
> >
>
> Not a real war, but surely fighting vamps and demons was considered a covert
> "military action". Were they getting combat pay for all the risk they were
> taking? I hope so.
But before the Adam debacle, it wasn't one that they were taking many
casualties in, to make openings that junior people would have to be
promoted into. If they did take a casualty in a senior position, they'd
just transfer in someone new with the appropriate rank to fill the slot.
> And Riley was one of Walsh's pet projects. It's possible she had him
> promoted faster than normal.
The Initiative had only been operating for a short time, when we first
see it (Spike was only Hostile-17. By the end of the season they were
bringing in that many in a week) Riley was already one of their top
people. And the Army isn't going to let a civilian scientist tell them
who does and doesn't get promoted. She might get to make
recommendations, but it is unlikely that they will bend their regs too
much to keep her happy.
Eric Hunter
> Elisi wrote:
>> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> The thing is, I disagree with Riley. Buffy does love him. What he's
>>> not recognizing is that Buffy's life (and the writers) means she has
>>> the man's emotionally closed role. Like in "Ghost" the hero would
>>> never say "I love you," only "Ditto." That she's no longer gushy and
>>> girly doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she doesn't
>>> recognizes that she's with a man who needs her to be gushy and girly.
>>> She doesn't show her vulnerabilities anymore.
>>>
>>> Riley's been raised in a culture that believe women are vulnerable and
>>> emotional, and will behave so and if they aren't behaving so, must not
>>> be so emotionally involved. But she IS emotionally involved, just not
>>> emotionally open.
>
> certainly interesting, people should keep things like this in mind
> before getting too hung up over stuff like the Three Little Words as a
> litmus test for love.
>
> I'm not sure where I stand on Buffy's feelings yet, but I'm inclined to
> disagree with Riley treating it as a black-and-white thing. Given the
> likelihood that future episodes will shed more light on things, no
> further comment yet.
Yeah, my response to Riley's End-of-Episode bomb was,
"HUH??? Sure she does!" She may have told Angel that
she loved Riley to hurt Angel, but she wouldn't lie
about it. I can see why Riley would think it, though.
Eric.
--
Eric Hunter
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 3: "The Replacement"
>
>> RILEY: Psychologically, this is fascinating. Doesn't it make everyone
>> wanna lock them in separate rooms and do experiments on them?... Just
>> me, then.
>
> What's with that? Why would Riley, of all people, toss a line like that
> out?
Ummm, because he's a psych grad student and an
Initiative Operative. Twin studies are a hallowed
part of Psychology and Genetics.
Eric.
--
Eric Hunter
We never saw more than a platoon of soldiers, though,
so Riley was probably a lieutenant or a young captain.
Eric.
--
yamsham
> The Initiative had only been operating for a short time, when we first
> see it (Spike was only Hostile-17. By the end of the season they were
> bringing in that many in a week)
Maybe I'm forgetting something, but isn't Spike's HST designation the only
one ever given? And was there a Hostile-18 or 19 or 20? Maybe I don't
remember, but if there wasn't, why believe that was the system the
Initiative used to catalog HSTs? (Personally I think Spike was called
Hostile-17 because the writers thought it sounded cool, but...)
> Riley was already one of their top
> people. And the Army isn't going to let a civilian scientist tell them
> who does and doesn't get promoted. She might get to make
> recommendations, but it is unlikely that they will bend their regs too
> much to keep her happy.
Well, she's not just a civilian scientist. She the head scientist of a
super-secret Black Budget project. And Riley's not just some grunt. He's a
key part of the project. I think a recommendation from Walsh would carry a
lot more weight.
Don Sample
"yamsham" <yam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
There still hasn't been *time* for any promotions, or even for Walsh to
have picked out any favourites, when we first see the Initiative, and
Riley's already the senior military guy there.
Stephen Tempest
>There still hasn't been *time* for any promotions, or even for Walsh to
>have picked out any favourites, when we first see the Initiative, and
>Riley's already the senior military guy there.
Um... she's already been carrying out experiments on him, enhancing
his strength and implanting a control chip - unless you believe all
that happened off-camera during the early part of season 4? So she
has known him for a while...
And there's also no evidence that the Initiative was newly set up at
the start of that season either. Judging by the size of their
underground base, it must have been there a while - maybe even before
the UCS campus was built on top of it. Naq jr xabj gur Vavgvngvir unf
orra nebhaq fvapr gur frpbaq jbeyq jne, gbb.
Finally, there's this line of dialogue from 'The Initiative':
__
Another TRANSPORT pulls into frame. Sitting on its flatbed, battle
suited and ready for combat, are SIX AGENTS. All dressed alike.
Commandos. They leap off the transport as it slows without stopping
and split off into three groups of three, standing at attention
awaiting orders.
PROF WALSH (cont'd)
Gentlemen, Agent Finn is now in charge of
this operation.
__
The fact that Walsh has to tell the other soldiers that Riley 'is now
in charge of this operation' surely implies that he's not in the
normal chain of command, doesn't it? Also, his rank is always given
as 'agent' or 'special agent', not a military rank at all. So I'd
have thought that while he may have had military training, he's
currently working for a *civilian* organisation.
Also, just as a side point, there are several references to the other
Initiative commandoes as 'marines' - which implies that they're
(ex-)USMC, not Army. (Or that the Mutant Enemy scriptwriters had
little knowledge of or interest in getting military terminology
correct, of course...)
Stephen
Sam
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The fact that Walsh has to tell the other soldiers that Riley 'is now
> in charge of this operation' surely implies that he's not in the
> normal chain of command, doesn't it? Also, his rank is always given
> as 'agent' or 'special agent', not a military rank at all. So I'd
> have thought that while he may have had military training, he's
> currently working for a *civilian* organisation.
>
There's another bit that supports that idea pretty explicitly, too. But
it's a spoler for AOQ at this point, so here goes the ROT 13.
Jura Znwbe Ryyvf erpehvgf Evyrl gb xvyy qrzbaf sbe Hapyr Fnz ntnva
yngre va gur frnfba, ur znxrf n irel pyrne qvfgvapgvba orgjrra uvf
bcrengvba naq gur Vavgvngvir.
EVYRL: V'z n pvivyvna.
RYYVF: Lbh'er n fbyqvre.
EVYRL: V dhvg gur tbireazrag n ybat jnl onpx.
RYYVF: Jr'er abg tbireazrag. Jr'er nezl.
TENUNZ: Whfg yvxr lbh.
RYYVF: Vg'f abg gur Vavgvngvir, Svaa. Jr qba'g qb rkcrevzragf. Abar bs
hf tvir n qnza jung znxrf zbafgref gvpx. Jr whfg fgbc 'rz.
Guvf frrzf gb tvir gur snveyl fgebat vzcerffvba gung gur Vavgvngvir jnf
n pvivyvna tbireazrag cebtenz hgvyvmvat fbyqvref, engure guna n cebtenz
eha ol gur zvyvgnel.
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> writes:
>
> >There still hasn't been *time* for any promotions, or even for Walsh to
> >have picked out any favourites, when we first see the Initiative, and
> >Riley's already the senior military guy there.
>
> Um... she's already been carrying out experiments on him, enhancing
> his strength and implanting a control chip - unless you believe all
> that happened off-camera during the early part of season 4? So she
> has known him for a while...
>
> And there's also no evidence that the Initiative was newly set up at
> the start of that season either. Judging by the size of their
> underground base, it must have been there a while - maybe even before
> the UCS campus was built on top of it. Naq jr xabj gur Vavgvngvir unf
> orra nebhaq fvapr gur frpbaq jbeyq jne, gbb.
There is no way that their operation could have been going on while the
Master, or Spike and Dru, or the Mayor were running things in Sunnydale.
They wouldn't have tolerated it. And since their people were running
all over town, Buffy would have noticed them too. The underground
complex was something that had existed previously, built for some other
purpose, that they moved into.
> Finally, there's this line of dialogue from 'The Initiative':
>
> __
>
> Another TRANSPORT pulls into frame. Sitting on its flatbed, battle
> suited and ready for combat, are SIX AGENTS. All dressed alike.
> Commandos. They leap off the transport as it slows without stopping
> and split off into three groups of three, standing at attention
> awaiting orders.
>
> PROF WALSH (cont'd)
> Gentlemen, Agent Finn is now in charge of
> this operation.
> __
>
> The fact that Walsh has to tell the other soldiers that Riley 'is now
> in charge of this operation' surely implies that he's not in the
> normal chain of command, doesn't it? Also, his rank is always given
> as 'agent' or 'special agent', not a military rank at all. So I'd
> have thought that while he may have had military training, he's
> currently working for a *civilian* organisation.
Which puts him farther out of the line for promotions. He's a military
person who has been seconded to a civilian run operation, with civilians
in charge. Walsh handing control over to Riley just meant that from
that point on, it was up to the military people (whom Riley commanded)
to bring Spike back.
> Also, just as a side point, there are several references to the other
> Initiative commandoes as 'marines' - which implies that they're
> (ex-)USMC, not Army.
That just means that they have drawn their people from multiple branches
of the service. Riley explicitly states that he is Army. And he is
still in the army when Colonel McNamara comes in to take command.