Joss V. Marti: SMACKDOWN!
Kevinstein
continue to find it amazing that Marti Noxon continues to be seen as a blight
upon humanity, while Joss Whedon is a golden god who never does wrong, ever,
except when he put Marti in charge. Based on writing only, I wanted to take a
look at their episodes side by side. Let's take a look:
What Joss Has Written:
BUFFY
Welcome to the Hellmouth
The Harvest
Prophecy Girl
Ted (w/David Greenwalt)
When She Was Bad
Lie to Me
Innocence
Becoming Part 1
Becoming Part 2
The Freshman
Hush
Who Are You
Restless
Family
The Body
The Gift
Once More, with Feeling
ANGEL
City of (w/David Greenwalt)
Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear)
Let's divide these into three major categories: GOOD, BAD, and DIVISIVE:
GOOD
(the ones that are nearly universally seen as wonderful)
Welcome to the Hellmouth, The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, Lie to Me, Innocence,
Becoming Part 1, Becoming Part 2, Hush, Who Are You, The Gift, and Once More,
With Feeling.
Pretty good track record here, with Eleven episodes that are seen by most on
this group as mindblowingly wonderful. Now, let's take a look at the bad:
BAD
(the ones either seen as mediocre or just plain bad, universally)
Ted, When She Was Bad, The Freshman, Family, City Of (mediocre)
Four episodes almost universally hated, especially Ted, which is seen as one of
the worst episodes ever. In fact, it's often seen as an "Afterschool
Special"-type episode. hmmm..... "City Of" was seen as a poor outing to a new
series.
DIVISIVE
(the ones which polarize the audience)
Restless, The Body, Sanctuary
Restless caused some to devote entire websites to it, others to disavow the
show forever. The Body caused many to affirm the fact that this was the most
intelligent, wonderful show on TV. Others called it sentimental pap.
Sanctuary didn't divide the audience as much (Angel was still shaky then), but
a lot of people were annoyed with Buffy showing up and the shows
interdependant, while others loved Faith's development.
Now, let's take a look at Marti, shall we?
BUFFY
What's My Line Part 1 (co-written with Howard Gordon)
What's My Line Part 2
Bad Eggs
Surprise
I Only Have Eyes for You
Dead Man's Party
Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts)
The Wish
Consequences
The Prom
Living Conditions
Wild at Heart
Doomed (co-written with David Fury and Jane Espenson)
Goodbye Iowa
Into the Woods
New Moon Rising
Buffy vs. Dracula
Forever
Bargaining Part 1
Wrecked
ANGEL
She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
Okay, the divisions:
THE GOOD
I Only Have Eyes for You, Surprise, The Wish, Consequences, The Prom, Wild at
Heart, New Moon Rising, Forever, Bargaining Part 1
So, that's only 2 behind Joss for ones seen as universally good. (I would have
put up both What's My Lines, as well, as everyone I know in the RW loves those,
but the newsgroup has been vehemently against them at times.) "Only Have Eyes"
and "The Prom" are often counted among people's favorite episodes.
THE BAD
Bad Eggs, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts), Living
Conditions, Doomed, She, Into the Woods, Buffy vs. Dracula
Of these, the only one I really don't like is "She." Noxon has a tendancy
toward melodrama, and that bothers a lot of people. You'll notice that 2 of
these (as well as GI below) focus on Riley. I think seeing these as "bad" have
a lot more to do with people hating Riley than Noxon writing badly.
THE DIVISIVE
What's My Line Part 1, What's My Line Part 2, Goodbye Iowa, Wrecked
I honestly don't know what people have against the What's My Line episodes.
Were they just upset that there was another Slayer? Wrecked is still very new.
(I find it interesting that one of the main complaints re: Wrecked is that the
other "horrid" episodes that Noxon has written didn't interfere with the "whole
arc." But "Into the Woods," "Buffy v. Dracula," both "What's My Line"s and
"Goodbye Iowa were very arc-heavy, so she's been involvd in the hinging
episodes before.
In addition, Noxon has written 2 more episodes than Whedon has, which gives her
more exposure. So, it actually seems pretty even here. The Golden God Joss
(who I LOVE very much) is fallable, and Marti Noxon seems to actually write
pretty damn good. So, what's the matter here?
Kev
*******
"Alex! Here!"
Sirius
You left out S3, which had Anne (bad), Amends (divisive), Doppelgangand,
Graduation 1, Graduation 2 (all good).
>
>Pretty good track record here, with Eleven episodes that are seen by most on
>this group as mindblowingly wonderful. Now, let's take a look at the bad:
>
>BAD
>(the ones either seen as mediocre or just plain bad, universally)
>
>Ted, When She Was Bad, The Freshman, Family, City Of (mediocre)
>
>Four episodes almost universally hated, especially Ted, which is seen as one
>of
>the worst episodes ever. In fact, it's often seen as an "Afterschool
>Special"-type episode. hmmm..... "City Of" was seen as a poor outing to a
>new
>series.
When She Was Bad is universally hated? Since when?
>I Only Have Eyes for You, Surprise, The Wish, Consequences, The Prom, Wild at
>Heart, New Moon Rising, Forever, Bargaining Part 1
>
Those last four eps are mediocre at best, and many, many people hate IOHEFY.
>
>THE BAD
>
>Bad Eggs, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts),
>Living
>Conditions, Doomed, She, Into the Woods, Buffy vs. Dracula
>
>Of these, the only one I really don't like is "She." Noxon has a tendancy
>toward melodrama, and that bothers a lot of people.
She also has a tendency to write shitty scripts, IMO. ;)
I think a big portion of the Riley-hate was caused by Noxon's awful writing.
>
>THE DIVISIVE
>
>What's My Line Part 1, What's My Line Part 2, Goodbye Iowa, Wrecked
I'd think Goodbye Iowa and Wrecked are much more hated than Restless or The
Body.
>In addition, Noxon has written 2 more episodes than Whedon has, which gives
>her
>more exposure.
Wrong here...
>So, it actually seems pretty even here. The Golden God Joss
>(who I LOVE very much) is fallable, and Marti Noxon seems to actually write
>pretty damn good. So, what's the matter here?
>
You'll find that Joss's "good" episodes are much, much better than Marti's, and
her "bad"s are painfully awful. Joss also (allegedly) heavily rewrote Lover's
Walk and Passion, which are both of the good.
Mrs. Poet
>From: books...@aol.comma (Kevinstein)
>Date: 12/2/2001 11:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20011202141850...@mb-md.aol.com>
>
>I've been going through the writing credits of both Buffy and Angel, and I
>continue to find it amazing that Marti Noxon continues to be seen as a blight
>upon humanity, while Joss Whedon is a golden god who never does wrong, ever,
>except when he put Marti in charge. Based on writing only, I wanted to take
>a
>look at their episodes side by side. Let's take a look:
>
>What Joss Has Written:
>
>BUFFY
>
>Welcome to the Hellmouth
>The Harvest
Both good.
>Prophecy Girl
Good, though I barely remember it.
>Ted (w/David Greenwalt)
Good.
>When She Was Bad
Pretty Good.
>Lie to Me
Great.
>Innocence
Great.
>Becoming Part 1
Good.
>Becoming Part 2
Great.
>The Freshman
Weak.
>Hush
Good.
>Who Are You
Great.
>Restless
Great.
>Family
Weak.
>The Body
Good.
>The Gift
Pretty Good though the ending sucked.
>Once More, with Feeling
Good, almost Great.
>
>ANGEL
>
>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
Good.
>Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear)
Pretty Good.
>
>Now, let's take a look at Marti, shall we?
>
>BUFFY
>
>What's My Line Part 1 (co-written with >Howard Gordon)
Pretty Good.
>What's My Line Part 2
Good.
>Bad Eggs
Weak.
>Surprise
Good.
>I Only Have Eyes for You
Pretty Good.
You left out
Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered: Great.
>Dead Man's Party
Bad.
>Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are >Beasts)
Weak.
>The Wish
Good, almost Great.
>Consequences
Good.
>The Prom
Weak.
>Living Conditions
Bad.
>Wild at Heart
Good.
>Doomed (co-written with David Fury and >Jane Espenson)
Weak.
>Goodbye Iowa
Weak.
>Into the Woods
Between Weak and Pretty Good. Ending sucked.
>New Moon Rising
Pretty Good.
>Buffy vs. Dracula
Pretty Good.
>Forever
Good.
>Bargaining Part 1
Pretty Good.
>Wrecked
Weak.
>ANGEL
>
>She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
>
Pretty Good.
>I honestly don't know what people have >against the What's My Line episodes.
I thought they were great fun, with some of the best Spike/Dru stuff ever. Not
the most sophisticated Buffy around, and poor James Marsters had to say the
dumb Elegor ritual lines. Still, quite enjoyable.
Rose
"Damaged people are dangerous. They know they can survive." -- Damage
Deb Fort
"Kevinstein" <books...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20011202141850...@mb-md.aol.com...
> I've been going through the writing credits of both Buffy and Angel, and I
> continue to find it amazing that Marti Noxon continues to be seen as a
blight
> upon humanity, while Joss Whedon is a golden god who never does wrong,
ever,
> except when he put Marti in charge. Based on writing only, I wanted to
take a
> look at their episodes side by side. Let's take a look:
>
> Now, let's take a look at Marti, shall we?
>
>
>
> Bad Eggs, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts),
Living
> Conditions, Doomed, She, Into the Woods, Buffy vs. Dracula
>
Am I the only one who got a kick out of "Buffy vs Dracula"?
WillowAnneLyra
When Noxon is good, she's fairly good. When Joss is good, he's great. When
Noxon is bad, she's painfully bad. When Joss is bad, he's average. If you
game them all number ratings based on goodness and then averaged them, I'm sure
that Joss's would be higher.
Also, I have to disagree with your catigorization. You're including "mediocre"
episodes as "bad" for Joss, which is just silly. You really should have put
those somewhere else. Counting them as bad unfairly weights Joss's "bad" side,
as you included a lot of mediocre episodes in Marti's "good" catigory. Her
season 6 opener was just as disapointing as Joss's season openers that you
included under his "bad" episodes.
-Katie
NataliGANN
>
>Bad Eggs, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts),
>Living
>Conditions, Doomed, She, Into the Woods, Buffy vs. Dracula
Is "Into the Woods" really generally seen as universally bad? Granted, it
wasn't the best episode ever, but I don't really consider it a bad episode. Am
I alone on this one?
Natalie
millernate
Actually I don't think most fans especially dislike Family. I mean
The Council of Watchers site (which does a fairly good job of rating
these things) gave it a rating in the 7's which is pretty good.
Admittedly Ted is pretty bad (and don't even get me started on The
Freshman) but isn't When She Was Bad considered the second best season
premiere ever (Next to Welcome to the Hellmouth)?
> DIVISIVE
> (the ones which polarize the audience)
>
> Restless, The Body, Sanctuary
>
> Restless caused some to devote entire websites to it, others to disavow the
> show forever. The Body caused many to affirm the fact that this was the most
> intelligent, wonderful show on TV. Others called it sentimental pap.
> Sanctuary didn't divide the audience as much (Angel was still shaky then), but
> a lot of people were annoyed with Buffy showing up and the shows
> interdependant, while others loved Faith's development.
>
Actually I think The Body gets better overall comments than The Gift.
I'm just saying.
I personally hated IOHEFY and I never cared for Wild at Heart. Plus
it's worth commenting on that Joss has more episodes that are likely
to end up on the top 15 ever. Also, if you'll note most of the really
good stuff (excluding The Wish) came in reaction to stuff that Joss
did. Put her on her own and we get Bargaining Part 1 which is mostly
mediocre.
> THE BAD
>
> Bad Eggs, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts), Living
> Conditions, Doomed, She, Into the Woods, Buffy vs. Dracula
>
> Of these, the only one I really don't like is "She." Noxon has a tendancy
> toward melodrama, and that bothers a lot of people. You'll notice that 2 of
> these (as well as GI below) focus on Riley. I think seeing these as "bad" have
> a lot more to do with people hating Riley than Noxon writing badly.
>
I personally liked Into the Woods so that isn't an issue. WHat I
dislike is that when she's bad she's *really* bad (Living Condition,
Doom) or wastes a truly good opportunity (Buffy vs. Dracula).
> THE DIVISIVE
>
> What's My Line Part 1, What's My Line Part 2, Goodbye Iowa, Wrecked
>
> I honestly don't know what people have against the What's My Line episodes.
> Were they just upset that there was another Slayer? Wrecked is still very new.
Personally it isn't that there's another slayer. It's just that it's
rather blahh for a 2 parter. Plus this is actually step one on the
watering down of Spike.
> (I find it interesting that one of the main complaints re: Wrecked is that the
> other "horrid" episodes that Noxon has written didn't interfere with the "whole
> arc." But "Into the Woods," "Buffy v. Dracula," both "What's My Line"s and
> "Goodbye Iowa were very arc-heavy, so she's been involvd in the hinging
> episodes before.
>
Buffy vs. Dracula isn't very arc heavy to me. I mean sure we got a
few notes (and the technical first appearance of Dawn) but you can
pretty easily remove it and it wouldn't affect the arc 1 iota (other
than the fact of having to introduce Dawn at the beginning of the next
episode). Ppoint taken on the others though.
> In addition, Noxon has written 2 more episodes than Whedon has, which gives her
> more exposure. So, it actually seems pretty even here. The Golden God Joss
> (who I LOVE very much) is fallable, and Marti Noxon seems to actually write
> pretty damn good. So, what's the matter here?
>
He has written a total of one truly bad episodes and a couple of
average ones but you also have to add the fact that his writing career
contains more high quality work than Noxon (for example: He was one
of the screenwriters for Toy Story, which ruled).
>
>
>
>
>
> Kev
> *******
> "Alex! Here!"
Nathan
"Our lives are different from other people."-Oz, Graduation Day
AlyAdmirer
>From: books...@aol.comma (Kevinstein)
>Message-id: <20011202141850...@mb-md.aol.com>
>
>I've been going through the writing credits of both Buffy and Angel, and I
>continue to find it amazing that Marti Noxon continues to be seen as a blight
>upon humanity,
Many people aren't blind. :)
>while Joss Whedon is a golden god who never does wrong, ever,
>except when he put Marti in charge.
Then again, many are... :)
IMHO, Marti is capable of decent material, but most of what she writes is
structurally poor and pertains to the elements of the series that LEAST
interest me. She panders faaaaar too much to the Shippers. She's also, as
I've come to refer to her, the Buffy equivilent of the Trek franchise's Brannon
Braga; namely, someone far too young and inexperienced (she has a scant few
credits outside of Buffy) to be given as much power as she has over a series.
Joss, meanwhile, is very overrated. He's produced some very good material, but
he believes his own press clippings too much. If you look at his body of work,
very few things outside of Buffy the Series and Toy Story have been viewed as
very successful, and when one of his ideas fail (Alien: Resurrection, Buffy the
Movie, his X-Men treatment, Riley and the Initiative), he's always very quick
to blame someone else, be it the directors, producers, or the audience. I've
said before that I don't think the decline of Buffy the Series following the
departure of David Greenwalt is a coincidence. His work benefitted from having
David as his sounding board, and not having anyone on the staff with that much
input until now hurt S4 and S5.
And bluntly, Marti Noxon is NO David Greenwalt.
>Based on writing only, I wanted to take
>a
>look at their episodes side by side. Let's take a look:
And now to steal formatting from Rose... :)
>What Joss Has Written:
>
>BUFFY
>
>Welcome to the Hellmouth
>The Harvest
Both very good.
>Prophecy Girl
Pretty good.
>Ted (w/David Greenwalt)
I've never understood why this episode is so loathed. I've always found it
pretty good.
>When She Was Bad
Decent.
>Lie to Me
VASTLY overrated in fan circles, but still pretty good. Not the second coming
of Citizen Kane it's often made out to be, though.
>Innocence
Damn good.
>Becoming Part 1
Great.
>Becoming Part 2
Greater.
Um, why'd we skip from S2 to S4?
Anne--pretty damn bad.
Amends--good.
Dopplegangland--friggin' excellent. And not just on the hormonal level for me.
:)
Graduation 1--Excellent
Graduation 2--Excellenter. :) The more time passes, the more I think they
should have gone out on that high note.
>The Freshman
One of the few S4 eps that can be called good by any stretch of the
imagination.
>Hush
Arguably the best Buffy ever made.
>Who Are You
Good.
>Restless
Good.
>Family
Mediocre, bordering on weak.
>The Body
Second worst episode ever, though more for the direction than the script.
>The Gift
WORST Buffy episode ever. :)
>Once More, with Feeling
Excellent through the last act. The episode, and S6 ever since, collapsed with
the final act.
>ANGEL
>
>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
Very good, I've always felt.
>Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear)
Also quite good.
>Now, let's take a look at Marti, shall we?
>
>BUFFY
>
>What's My Line Part 1 (co-written with Howard Gordon)
Very good, I felt.
>What's My Line Part 2
Good, but not as good as part one.
>Bad Eggs
Held the title of worst Buffy episode ever for a time. Still in the Bottom
Ten.
>Surprise
Another vastly overrated episode. It's only saved by just how good Innocence
is.
Um, Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered? You left off one of her good ones!
:)
>I Only Have Eyes for You
Mediocre, bordering on weak.
>Dead Man's Party
The first episode to supplant Bad Eggs as worst Buffy ever. Held the title
until Beer Bad came along.
>Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts)
Now THIS is the "Afterschool Special"/Very Special Episode of Buffy that we
were promised we'd never have.
>The Wish
Good. Could have been great, but didn't quite make it.
>Consequences
The episode content was, IMHO, weak. However, for me it did mark the starting
point for S3 really coming together.
>The Prom
Unmemorable.
>Living Conditions
Bad. Tries far too hard to be funny. Like much of Marti's work, lacks the
necessary subtlety.
>Wild at Heart
Mediocre. Don't get me started on the misplaced heat on Oz in this story.
>Doomed (co-written with David Fury and Jane Espenson)
I'm one of the few people who thought this episode was almost good.
>Goodbye Iowa
Awful.
>Into the Woods
Almost supplanted Beer Bad at the time for worst ep.
>New Moon Rising
Mediocre.
>Buffy vs. Dracula
Lightweight fun, but enjoyable in spots.
>Forever
Mediocre.
>Bargaining Part 1
The better part of Bargaining, which coming from someone who thinks Fury has
the best grasp of the Buffyverse of the people currently making the show is
saying something.
>Wrecked
More aptly called Wretched. Hideously bad epsiode continuing S6's post OMWF
decline.
>ANGEL
>
>She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
Mediocre, bordering on weak.
>Okay, the divisions:
>
>THE GOOD
>
>I Only Have Eyes for You,
In what alternate universe is IOHEFY universally loved?
[snip]
>You'll notice that 2 of
>these (as well as GI below) focus on Riley. I think seeing these as "bad"
>have
>a lot more to do with people hating Riley than Noxon writing badly.
As someone else pointed out, I think the reverse is true: a lot of the Riley
hate stemmed from Noxon's weak writing.
Just my pair of pennies.
--Darryl
"Unrequited love--it's fantastic, 'cause it never has to change, it never has
to grow up, and it never has to die." Vince Tyler, "Queer as Folk" UK
Smaug69
Restless may probably end up on my Top 10 list at some point. I just
have to get it on tape so I can watch it again...and again...and
again...
I consider the WML 2-parter to be the watershed event for the show.
After all of the revelations and new elements/twists of these two
episodes the show was never the same. It "graduated" to another level
and then took off from there.
> Wrecked is still very new.
> (I find it interesting that one of the main complaints re: Wrecked is that the
> other "horrid" episodes that Noxon has written didn't interfere with the "whole
> arc." But "Into the Woods," "Buffy v. Dracula," both "What's My Line"s and
> "Goodbye Iowa were very arc-heavy, so she's been involvd in the hinging
> episodes before.
>
> In addition, Noxon has written 2 more episodes than Whedon has, which gives her
> more exposure. So, it actually seems pretty even here. The Golden God Joss
> (who I LOVE very much) is fallable, and Marti Noxon seems to actually write
> pretty damn good. So, what's the matter here?
A pretty nice comparison. However, you forgot that Joss wrote both
Graduation Day episodes so that makes him and Marti even in the
writing department. I don't see how you could have missed that. Many
people consider the first part to be a classic.
I think the reason that Joss stands so tall above Marti and anyone
else involved with the show when it comes to these discussions/threads
is because he created it and nearly all of the characters(the most
important ones, that is) that inhabit it. That is, without him and his
creative guiding force there would be no BtVS.
This makes me think of David Lynch and Twin Peaks(Still the greatest
show ever put on television). He co-created it and directed only a few
episodes, but he wasn't involved with most of the entire 30 episode
run(counting the Pilot) outside the executive producer capacity. And
yet, you won't find many people who don't think that Lynch deserves
nearly all- if not all- the credit for the greatness of the show.
Smaug69
DE McGhee
First, i want to second the many people who have pointed out
that simple counts (of eps) don't tell the whole Joss v. Marti
story.
2nd....
on 3.12.2001, AlyAdmirer said:
> Joss, meanwhile, is very overrated. He's produced some very
> good material, but he believes his own press clippings too much.
> If you look at his body of work, very few things outside of
> Buffy the Series and Toy Story have been viewed as very
> successful, and when one of his ideas fail (Alien: Resurrection,
> Buffy the Movie, his X-Men treatment, Riley and the Initiative),
> he's always very quick to blame someone else, be it the
> directors, producers, or the audience.
2nd, i don't want to take this thread off-track, but i've seen
numerous refs to the 4th season debacle (for lack of a better word).
As i wasn't checking out the ng during that time, i'm wondering if
anyone(s) can give me a brief rundown of the problems the audience
had with season4, esp. the Initiative storyline. Bulletted list
format is fine, or if there's a good thread i can find with Google,
that's cool too. thanks in advance!
also, what was Whedon's reaction to the audience's reaction?
my main problem with it was the lack of...irony, perhaps? - both
w/The Initiative overall and with the Buffy/Riley storyline in
particular. i mean, when i watched it then and when i re-watch
certain eps now, i'm constantly wondering whether i'm supposed to be
laughing or taking things somewhat seriously.
DEM
JPHALT
>What Joss Has Written:
>
>BUFFY
>
>Welcome to the Hellmouth
>The Harvest
Very good.
>Prophecy Girl
Outstanding.
>When She Was Bad
Good.
>Lie to Me
Very Good.
>Ted
Weak, with a copout third act.
>Innocence
Great.
>Becoming Part 1
>Becoming Part 2
Great.
>Anne
Good, more for the direction than the script.
>Amends
Pretty good.
>Doppelgangland
Very Good.
>Graduation Day 1 & 2
Very Good.
>The Freshman
Good. Hated it the first time I watched it, but it actually improves on repeat
viewing.
>Hush
Great, though somewhat overrated.
>Who Are You
Very Good.
>Restless
Great, one of my top 2.
>Family
Weak. Joss' worst episode as writer/director.
>The Body
Great. The other of my top 2 favorites.
>The Gift
Good, but suffers from some poor scripting (though I think it's more the fault
of the season than the episode itself that they still needed so much exposition
in the finale after wasting 21 episodes that should have been laying that
groundwork).
>Once More, with Feeling
Great.
>
>ANGEL
>
>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
Very Good. It actually sold me on a series that I had low expectations for
(expectation that have since been mostly confirmed, unfortunately).
>Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear)
Good, but I actually liked "Five X Five" a lot better.
>Now, let's take a look at Marti, shall we?
>
>BUFFY
>
>What's My Line Part 1 (co-written with Howard Gordon)
Weak.
>What's My Line Part 2
Pretty good. These two episodes could have been condensed into a much better
1-parter, but Part 2 is a vast improvement over the frankly boring Part 1.
>Bad Eggs
Weak. Moderately amusing on first viewing for the Gorch brothers, but pure
filler.
>Surprise
Pretty Good. Vastly overrated because people tend to remember it with
"Innocence."
>Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered
Great. One of the best purely-comic episodes of the series.
>I Only Have Eyes for You
Good. Better on first viewing than on repeat viewings, however.
>Dead Man's Party
Weak, though not as bad is its reputation. The zombie stuff actually drags
this one down, while the character interactions are extremely well-written
BEFORE the Monster of the Week shows up.
>Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts)
Poor. My pick for worst-ever BTVS. WARNING! RANT AHEAD! A tedious,
suspenseless, worthless excuse for an episode, founded on the flimsiest
foundation imaginable. Just to start with: The major dilemna is supposed to be
the characters thinking Oz might have killed the kid at the beginning. But not
only does the audience have no reason to strongly suspect Oz, neither do that
characters. A window was left open and Xander took a nap? That's not
evidence. Now if Oz had actually gotten out that night, and then woke up
outside, with blood on him--then both the audience and the characters might
have reason to suspect him. As it is, the episode spins its wheels for 30
minutes before ramming the Pete-and-Debbie show down our throats. Bad stuff,
very bad.
>The Wish
Very Good.
>Consequences
Great, maybe the best episode of Season 3.
>The Prom
Great.
>Living Conditions
Bad. Not inept like "Beauty & the Beasts," but almost as painful to watch.
The "bad roommate humor" was funny in "The Odd Couple," but it has NEVER been
funny in any of the million things that have mimicked it since.
>Wild at Heart
Great. Oz's best episode as a character--naturally, they'd only write him good
stuff on his way out the door.
>Doomed (co-written with David Fury and Jane Espenson)
Weak, though I blame that more on the rushed writing and production of the
episode than on the writers (extra time and money spent on "Hush," that bill
had to be paid somewhere).
>Goodbye Iowa
Very Good. Underrated because people remember it (a) for the start of the Adam
arc; and (b) as an extension of the much-hated "I in Team."
>New Moon Rising.
Great. Another good Oz episode, which makes 2 for the season--a record, for
that character.
>Buffy v. Dracula.
Pretty Good.
>Into the Woods
Very Good, IMHO. At the very least, not the "moose-turd pie" (TM David Hines)
it is frequently made out to be.
>Forever
Very good.
>Bargaining Part 1
Very good. Underrated, I think, because it was aired with "Bargaining 2,"
which was rather listless and lacking direction.
>Wrecked
Between Weak and Pretty Good. Final rating depends on where the season ends up
going. It is NOT, however, the "Worst. Episode. Ever."
>ANGEL
>
>She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
Weak. Watchable, but not good.
Please note that I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Marti-basher. I think
she is a capable writer, with a strong grasp of the characters. Sometimes too
strong a grasp of the characters, as she tends to focus on characterization to
the exclusion of a strong plot.
Joss' episode ratings definitely outshine Marti's. His best episodes are the
series' best episodes, and his worst episodes are still watchable.
That said, I think increased control for Marti has been a good thing this
season. Last year, I thought it was pretty clear from what we were seeing
on-screen that Joss was losing interest in these characters. By his own
admission in an interview I read, he was feeling "Buffied out." Marti still
has interest in these characters, and enthusiasm for the show in general. Joss
has bursts of enthusiasm, which tend to represent themselves in very good but
increasingly experimental episodes. But I don't think the show as a whole is
captivating his interest as it did in Seasons 1 - 3.
At the end of the day, I would rather the show be in the hands of a capable
worker bee with enthusiasm for her job than a bored genius who would rather be
working on his comic book. Just my own opinion, YMMV.
MeghanNYC
that David Greenwlat made Joss better on Buffy--but, for me, Marti has one
simple
failing: she's not funny. She can be dramatic. She can be interesting. (I'd
rate The Wish quite high on my all-time list, maybe even top-10) But, she just
isn't funny. Joss, even at his weakest, is funny. And when he mixes drama and
humor, he's top-notch.
David Cheatham
<Pine.A41.4.33.011202...@dante15.u.washington.edu>, "DE
McGhee" <demc...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
My major problems:
1. The military acted completely and totally stupid. I'm too lazy to go
into this right now.
2. Adam was completely implausible. Gluing body parts
togeter...okay...like *that's* a legit occupation for government
scientitists.
3. The Initiative never figured out magic. I mean, all these things that
look and act like vampires...and they never tried crosses. They have
frickin mirrors in the *cells*, and they never said 'Wait a tic, it's
completely that someone doesn't show up in the mirror.'
That's just the three huge plotholes I managed to come up with without
thinking. More will come to me.
Shawn Hill
:>So, what's the matter here?
Bargaining 1 was better than Bargaining 2, firstly, so you have to
seperate those out; and it was much more interesting than Anne, and more
important than The Freshman.
Bargaining 2, however, was disappointing, true, but not due to Marti.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:>
: She also has a tendency to write shitty scripts, IMO. ;)
: I think a big portion of the Riley-hate was caused by Noxon's awful writing.
Lets clarify; you think, aside from her plotting or story/arc ideas, her
actual dialogue is poor?
:>What's My Line Part 1, What's My Line Part 2, Goodbye Iowa, Wrecked
: I'd think Goodbye Iowa and Wrecked are much more hated than Restless or The
: Body.
They're much less attention-getting, though, or "divisive" as the latter
two are. Those who hate them (two episodes I consider indespinsable and
classic) REALLY hate them.
: You'll find that Joss's "good" episodes are much, much better than Marti's, and
: her "bad"s are painfully awful. Joss also (allegedly) heavily rewrote Lover's
: Walk and Passion, which are both of the good.
I dunno, Ted and Bad Eggs are quite comparable....flawed, but funny.
Of course, I put Beer Bad in that category, too, and Go Fish...talk about
universally hated!?
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:>
:>What Joss Has Written:
:>
:>BUFFY
:>
:>Prophecy Girl
: Good, though I barely remember it.
The Master died. Cordy helped. Buffy looks good in white.
:>Lie to Me
: Great.
I dunno, kinda over it; good themes, but just as "walk on" as IOHEFY.
: Great.
:>The Freshman
: Weak.
Not one who loves Sunday still, huh?
:>Hush
: Good.
Great.
:>Who Are You
: Great.
Double-plus-good.
:>Restless
: Great.
:>Family
: Weak.
Good.
:>The Body
: Good.
Great.
:>The Gift
: Pretty Good though the ending sucked.
Great.
:>Once More, with Feeling
: Good, almost Great.
Great.
:>
:>ANGEL
:>
:>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
: Good.
Weak. Set up the whole Angel saves damsels thing that is just
really tired.
:>Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear)
: Pretty Good.
Very ITW/Goodbye Iowa level for me.
:>BUFFY
:>
:>Bad Eggs
: Weak.
So funny, though, and very creative for an MOTW. Kind of season-one esque,
which is what made it glow so dimly in season two.
:>I Only Have Eyes for You
: Pretty Good.
Loved the sex-role reversal with the Angel/Buffy hauntings. Clever and
stylish.
:>Dead Man's Party
: Bad.
I dunno, guilt tripping Buffy is always good, and the mask-stuff was
creepily supernatural.
:>Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are >Beasts)
: Weak.
Seriously, seriously weak...much more accurate for the
"after-school-special" designation than Smashed, which is mature and
sophisticated (mostly due to AH's performance, granted) compared to the
completely dull themes brutishly played out by this one.
:>The Wish
: Good, almost Great.
Great. Show-defining. Tragic. Startling. One of the few alternate-reality
episodes of any show that actually does something good with the concept;
the best on tv since we met the Enterprise C on TNG, in fact.
:>The Prom
: Weak.
Well, if you look at the A story, sure, but the whole point was the B
story -- Buffy sacrificing her prom so everyone else would be safe, and
then actually getting rewarded for it for once.
:>Living Conditions
: Bad.
I have to put this one up with Ted, Bad Eggs, and Beer Bad as saved by the
humor; her Celine-Dion-mad roommate was hilarious, as were the epic
sweater, snoring and sandwich battles. Plus, really hot shot of Xander and
Oz tumbling to the floor together...very slashy.
:>Wild at Heart
: Good.
Iffy on this one, Veruca really annoyed me.
:>Into the Woods
: Between Weak and Pretty Good. Ending sucked.
Only if you think it meant anything. With Riley never coming back, I'm
betting we're pretty safe....well, as safe as you can be with Spike.
:>New Moon Rising
: Pretty Good.
Oh, Seth, we miss you babe!
:>Buffy vs. Dracula
: Pretty Good.
Certainly was pretty to look at, but that was one weak Drac.
:>Forever
: Good.
Boring.
:>Bargaining Part 1
: Pretty Good.
Again, big on the funny and the drama (not too melodrama in this outing,
actually).
:>Wrecked
: Weak.
Hot!!!
:>ANGEL
:>
:>She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
:>
: Pretty Good.
She? Good? Really? I mean, Bai Ling was pretty, but come on!!
:>I honestly don't know what people have >against the What's My Line episodes.
: I thought they were great fun, with some of the best Spike/Dru stuff ever. Not
: the most sophisticated Buffy around, and poor James Marsters had to say the
: dumb Elegor ritual lines. Still, quite enjoyable.
I liked em too.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:>Ted (w/David Greenwalt)
: I've never understood why this episode is so loathed. I've always found it
: pretty good.
Some people don't like tech/scifi mixed with their fantasy/horror. Others
want John Ritter to always be nice. Others already saw the Stepfather and
didn't want to see it again.
:>Lie to Me
: VASTLY overrated in fan circles, but still pretty good. Not the second coming
: of Citizen Kane it's often made out to be, though.
Nope, I've always been rather indifferent to this one myself, too. I guess
it's fun to trash the Anne Rice school of thought so completely....but,
not that fun, as the show itself still glamorizes vamps as much as she
does, and this ep just wasn't that scary to me.
: Anne--pretty damn bad.
The sequence where Buffy brandishes the ax and saves everyone is worth it.
: Amends--good.
Touching, even.
: Dopplegangland--friggin' excellent. And not just on the hormonal level for me.
: :)
I wasn't as impressed by this second visit to Wish-world. It's funny
enough, but Anya really saves it for me.
: Graduation 1--Excellent
: Graduation 2--Excellenter. :) The more time passes, the more I think they
: should have gone out on that high note.
But they weren't done.
:>The Freshman
: One of the few S4 eps that can be called good by any stretch of the
: imagination.
Really? A little lackluster and unfocused, I actually PREFER Living
Conditions, and then there's Hush and the Yoko Factor and Primevel and
Restless. It may have started poor, but it had a big finish!
:>Hush
: Arguably the best Buffy ever made.
Yep.
:>Family
: Mediocre, bordering on weak.
I found it touching, if a bit muddled.
:>The Body
: Second worst episode ever, though more for the direction than the script.
a) what's the first and
b) the direction was brilliant, and augmented the themes of the script
amazingly.
:>The Gift
: WORST Buffy episode ever. :)
Oh. Wow.
:>Once More, with Feeling
: Excellent through the last act. The episode, and S6 ever since, collapsed with
: the final act.
As if it hadn't been heading there since Something Blue at least? If not
Lover's Walk?
:>ANGEL
:>
:>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
: Very good, I've always felt.
Why?
:>Bad Eggs
: Held the title of worst Buffy episode ever for a time. Still in the Bottom
: Ten.
But....Xander boiled his!!
:>Surprise
: Another vastly overrated episode. It's only saved by just how good Innocence
: is.
Oh, it has themes and significance of its own. Buffy's having some very
significant experiences.
:>I Only Have Eyes for You
: Mediocre, bordering on weak.
I thought the theme was very well-played out, and the 50s thing was well
done, too.
:>Bargaining Part 1
: The better part of Bargaining, which coming from someone who thinks Fury has
: the best grasp of the Buffyverse of the people currently making the show is
: saying something.
Yeah, what was that about?
:>ANGEL
:>
:>She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
: Mediocre, bordering on weak.
"Bordering?"
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:>THE BAD
Nope, I was one of it's defenders at the time, and I still like it. Buffy
did some great solo vamp-destroying scenes in this one, and I thought
Xander's speech was something a friend would say. Also, some cool
Spike/Riley stuff in this one, too. The ending only greats if you think
she'll stop that flight...since she doesn't, it's moot.
Shawn
Delia
semi-frequent lurker.
I just wanted to point out regarding the whole question of 'who delivers
better scripts', etc., that very often television scripts are written by
committee with all sorts of people doctoring and fixing, then assigned a
'writer' for the sake of formality, usually whoever happened to contribute
the most that week.
I don't know for sure that is how they do things on Buffy/Angel, but I
imagine it's not far off. The arcs and important story elements will have
been decided long ahead of time. Probably various people on the
scriptwriting team have characters for whom they are the dialogue experts (I
remember one comment from Marti, for instance, that she writes all of
Willow's "tonguetwister" lines).
Food for thought, for what it's worth.
-Delia
Shawn Hill
: This makes me think of David Lynch and Twin Peaks(Still the greatest
: show ever put on television). He co-created it and directed only a few
: episodes, but he wasn't involved with most of the entire 30 episode
: run(counting the Pilot) outside the executive producer capacity. And
: yet, you won't find many people who don't think that Lynch deserves
: nearly all- if not all- the credit for the greatness of the show.
Rather unlike Joss (depending on who you talk to), the Lynch-directed
episodes of Twin Peaks were consistently the best of either season.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: First, i want to second the many people who have pointed out
: that simple counts (of eps) don't tell the whole Joss v. Marti
: story.
Which is why other information was given to augment the lists.
: 2nd....
: on 3.12.2001, AlyAdmirer said:
: 2nd, i don't want to take this thread off-track, but i've seen
: numerous refs to the 4th season debacle (for lack of a better word).
: As i wasn't checking out the ng during that time, i'm wondering if
: anyone(s) can give me a brief rundown of the problems the audience
: had with season4, esp. the Initiative storyline. Bulletted list
: format is fine, or if there's a good thread i can find with Google,
: that's cool too. thanks in advance!
Here's some of mine, blurred in with what I presumed was going on at the
time (or can remember now, through rose-colored glasses):
1) Transitioning to college-age is hard for any "teen" show.
2) They didn't really show much of the college experience.
3) They wasted Lindsey Cruise way too early... was she just too expensive?
4) Adam was never that compelling a villain.
5) The military vs. mystic dialectic was poorly
explored/explained/expounded upon.
6) While the goal of finding Buffy a decent post-Angel relationship was
worth it, wasting it on a clueless cowboy like Riley Finn maybe wasn't the
best way to go.
7) Giles and Joyce were relegated to the background, not a smart move for
a show where the majority of the cast stayed in town and in close
proximity to each other.
8) Xander was similarly under-utilized and directionless, as the focus
shifted to non-S1 characters like Tara, Riley and Anya.
9) Joss was too busy coping with Angel's out-of-the-starting-gate problems
to devote full attention to the show.
10) The arc was jerky and uneven, never really building momentum but
rather limping along.
: also, what was Whedon's reaction to the audience's reaction?
I can only guess, but I'd say some of it is to be found in the latter
episodes, which began to comment on the events of the season directly or
indirectly:
1) Joyce being walled up and indifferent to Buffy in Restless.
2) Spike trying to employ "The Yoko Factor" to divide an already
splintered group.
3) Buffy reminding Giles of why she needed him, and re-affirming their
connection.
: my main problem with it was the lack of...irony, perhaps? - both
: w/The Initiative overall and with the Buffy/Riley storyline in
: particular. i mean, when i watched it then and when i re-watch
: certain eps now, i'm constantly wondering whether i'm supposed to be
: laughing or taking things somewhat seriously.
It's Buffy. It's almost always both.
Shawn
Sean Daugherty
> continue to find it amazing that Marti Noxon continues to be seen as a blight
> upon humanity, while Joss Whedon is a golden god who never does wrong, ever,
> except when he put Marti in charge. Based on writing only, I wanted to take a
> look at their episodes side by side. Let's take a look:
Hmm... now I'm interested. Let me try the rating scale thing here, for
the sake of an argument....
Welcome to the Hellmouth: 4 out of 5
The Harvest: 3.5 out of 5
Prophecy Girl: 3 out of 5
Ted (w/David Greenwalt): 3.5 out of 5
When She Was Bad: 2.5 out of 5
Lie to Me: 5 out of 5
Innocence: 4 out of 5
Becoming Part 1: 3.5 out of 5
Becoming Part 2: 4 out of 5
The Freshman: 3.5 out of 5
Hush: 4.75 out of 5
Who Are You: 4.25 out of 5
Restless: 5 out of 5
Family: 3.5 out of 5
The Body: 4 out of 5
The Gift: 4 out of 5
Once More, with Feeling: 5 out of 5
BTW, you left out a few in your list...
Anne: 2 out of 5
Doppelgangland: 4 out of 5
Graduation Day Part 1: 4 out of 5
Graduation Day Part 2: 4.5 out of 5
And for the ANGEL material...
City of (w/David Greenwalt): 2 out of 5
Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear): 3 out of 5
And, another missing one:
Happy Anniversary (w/David Greenwalt): 4 out of 5
(yeah, I know, I'm the only one)
And on the esteemed Ms. Noxon....
What's My Line Part 1 (w/Howard Gordon): 4 out of 5
What's My Line Part 2: 3.75 out of 5
Bad Eggs: 3.5 out of 5
Surprise: 3.5 out of 5
I Only Have Eyes for You: 4.5 out of 5
Dead Man's Party: 0 out of 5
(the only BTVS episode that would recieve that score from me, BTW)
Beauty and the Beasts: 2.5 out of 5
The Wish: 5 out of 5
Consequences: 4 out of 5
The Prom: 4 out of 5
Living Conditions: 2 out of 5
Wild at Heart: 2.5 out of 5
Doomed (w/David Fury and Jane Espenson): 3.5 out of 5
Goodbye Iowa: 2.5 out of 5
Into the Woods: 1.5 out of 5
New Moon Rising: 2 out of 5
Buffy vs. Dracula: 3.5 out of 5
Forever: 4 out of 5
Bargaining Part 1: 4 out of 5
Wrecked: 3.5 out of 5
And her one contribution to ANGEL....
She (w/David Greenwalt): 1.5 out of 5
Given this, Joss's average comes out 3.77
And Marti's average comes to 3.11
All based on my opinions, mind you. Joss comes out ahead, but Marti
doesn't do all that bad, all things considered.
Crow
> numerous refs to the 4th season debacle (for lack of a better word).
> As i wasn't checking out the ng during that time, i'm wondering if
> anyone(s) can give me a brief rundown of the problems the audience
> had with season4, esp. the Initiative storyline. Bulletted list
> format is fine, or if there's a good thread i can find with Google,
> that's cool too. thanks in advance!
I can only approach this from my own angle and from what friends
thought....
---A random guy comes onto the show and seems to monopolize it. While
not completely true, he did did a huge chunk of screentime that many
would much rather have seen devote to the characters they knew and
loved. Not many were willing to accept all this time being devoted to
him. It felt like we were being force fed a character, being begged to
like him.
---Adam, as far as villians went, wasn't very *likeable*. What do I
mean? The Master had charm. he was charismic. Then there was Angelus.
And then graduation with the entire graduating class fighting the
snake. Both season 2 and 3 had "big bads" that we knew well...or, at
least, they had been with us for awhile. Season five had Glory, who,
if nothing else, had some great lines. She was intriguing, you know?
But Adam came off as...blah. that's it. Just blah.
---Many people, at the time, had a problem with Spike being chipped.
And it was the first season without Angel. And Willow came outta the
closet. Up till then, it was all following a neat little course (much
like RL in high school does). People don't like huge change like that,
typically.
ok, I know I could go into this more, but am sure others will better
than I have. So I leave you know......
SmegHead
Nop, I thought it was a great episode.. Definately one of the best season premieres.
- SmegHead
John Campbell Rees
DE McGhee <demc...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> I want to second the many people who have pointed out that simple
> counts (of eps) don't tell the whole Joss v. Marti story.
>
True, if you also factor in who directed each of the stories in the
"Good", the "Bad" and the "Divisive" catagories you could give this
debate a whole new spin.
--
"Like shooting flies with a laser cannon, the aims a bit tricky, but
it certainly deals with the flies." - Lord Miles Vorkosigan.
From "Komarr" by Lois McMaster Bujold
jw...@gardd-lelog.org.uk http://www.gardd-lelog.org.uk/
BickleBear
"That'll put marzipan in your pie-plate, Bingo!" is one of my favorite lines of
all time...
BickleBear
wrong with me. As for "Happy Anniversary," I think I'm just trying to forget
it ever happened. For me, it's "Angel"'s "Crush." The worst thing that ever
happened to the show, including "She."
Smaug69
But there were only 30 episodes- counting the Pilot. BtVS is at 110
episodes and counting. If Twin Peaks had been renewed for a couple of
more seasons I believe that the quality of the show would have
declined greatly. It really is difficult to maintain quality over a
long period of time. That's why BtVS gets kudos in my book for
producing really good shows after 5 years. I would have liked to have
seen more of Twin Peaks, but I realize that more of it might have
watered it down as a whole. As it is, Twin Peaks is great partly
because of its shortness.
Another good example of fewer=better is The Ben Stiller Show. It
lasted only thirteen episodes, but within those thirteen episodes lie
the best sketch comedy show ever produced on TV.
Smaug69("Hey, man. I was just tryin' to pull the sword from the
stone.")
AlyAdmirer
>From: Shawn Hill sh...@fas.harvard.edu
>Date: 12/3/2001 12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <9uf25l$412$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>
>
>AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
>: Dopplegangland--friggin' excellent. And not just on the hormonal level for
>me.
>: :)
>
>I wasn't as impressed by this second visit to Wish-world. It's funny
>enough, but Anya really saves it for me.
You're my polar opposite. :) I found Dopplegangland much preferable to The
Wish.
>: Graduation 1--Excellent
>
>: Graduation 2--Excellenter. :) The more time passes, the more I think they
>: should have gone out on that high note.
>
>But they weren't done.
I'm not so sure about that...
IMHO the biggest problem with S4 and S5, among the many problems with them, was
that they lacked direction. Their really wasn't much of a story left to tell
there. The series has never really recovered from losing the high school and
adolescence as hell metaphor. One of the things that S6 has going for it so
far is that there's been a sense of direction floating beneath the surface,
obscurred though it may be by B/S stuff.
>:>The Freshman
>
>: One of the few S4 eps that can be called good by any stretch of the
>: imagination.
>
>Really? A little lackluster and unfocused, I actually PREFER Living
>Conditions, and then there's Hush and the Yoko Factor and Primevel and
>Restless. It may have started poor, but it had a big finish!
For me, it all comes down to one word:
Sunday.
I found her to be the most engaging villain S4 offered up. And it's not a good
sign when a season's most engaging villain gets offed in the first ep. :)
<snip>
>:>The Body
>
>: Second worst episode ever, though more for the direction than the script.
>
>a) what's the first and
>
>b) the direction was brilliant, and augmented the themes of the script
>amazingly.
If you can unearth the David Hines review of The Body, do so. It does a much
better job of summing up my gripes with the ep than I could. It was, as he
called it, an hour of "Gee, death sure is sad," lacking in any substance or
depth, despite how much the directorial prententious at work tried to make it
look like it possessed such. It was audience manipulating Emmy grubbing of the
worst and most transparent degree, and I was overjoyed when they didn't get
rewarded with a nomination for it.
>:>The Gift
>
>: WORST Buffy episode ever. :)
>
>Oh. Wow.
Well, I liked the episode much better the first time I saw it, when it was
called "Becoming 2". Also, I'll admit a great deal of my disgust with the
episode comes from my disgust with the S5 arc. I find Buffy's
Dawn-Over-the-Multiverse "Anyone go near her and I'll kill you" approach to be
quite similar to Angel's "And yet somehow I just can't seem to care" moment.
Both reactions are very believable. You can understand them, you can empathize
with them, and any of us in the exact situation might very well make the same
choices.
The thing is, both choices were wrong. Angel the Series had the guts to take
Angel the Character to task over it. Buffy the Series was too busy trying to
canonize her for her actions.
And then there's the logical flaw in the resolution. If Dawn is the mystical
all powerful Key that can unlock the doors to all the dimensions, then there
has to be something about her that is unique to everyone else on the planet.
We're led to believe that this is her blood, and that her blood is the essence
of her Keyness. Yet, if Buffy's blood and Dawn's blood are interchangable,
then there was nothing at all unique about her. Unless something was done to
Buffy's blood in the process of creating Dawn, but that's pure conjecture. If
Buffy's blood had the same qualities as Dawn's, then there was no point of the
monks creating Dawn in the first place. Buffy's blood would have worked all
along.
I understand the symbollic meaning they were going for. It just doesn't
outweigh the holes in the logic for me.
>:>Once More, with Feeling
>
>: Excellent through the last act. The episode, and S6 ever since, collapsed
>with
>: the final act.
>
>As if it hadn't been heading there since Something Blue at least? If not
>Lover's Walk?
Here were my two biggest problems with the resolution to OMWF.
(1) I can't buy Xander being the one to summon all this. Almost anyone else in
the Scoobies I could have accepted (especially Dawn or Willow), but not Xander.
It harkens back too much to the pre "I am nobody's butt monkey" version of
Xander, and undoes the character growth that has occurred since then. Also,
Xander's knows first hand the dangers of magic gone awry (BB&B), and for all
his other faults, he's usually not one to make the same mistake twice.
And (2) the whole B/S crap. Simply stomach turning.
>:>ANGEL
>:>
>:>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
>
>: Very good, I've always felt.
>
>Why?
I loved the tone and atmosphere the episode created for this new series. And,
as someone else commented, it managed to suck me into a show I was convinced I
was going to loathe. I DESPISED Angel during his time on Buffy. I never
thought he should've been made a regular after S1, or brought back from hell
after S2. But he clicked with me in this new show, and he did so from the
start of City Of. That was no small feat.
>:>Bad Eggs
>
>: Held the title of worst Buffy episode ever for a time. Still in the Bottom
>: Ten.
>
>But....Xander boiled his!!
Which was a hysterical moment, but about the lone highlight for me. It clearly
existed just to fill the gap between Ted and Surprise.
<rest snipped>
Sean Daugherty
Yeah, I know. I'm more or less completely alone in liking "Happy
Anniversary," but I really did. Whedon and Greenwalt are, IMO, the
best writing pair Mutant Enemy has got, and pull off some sparkling
dialogue. And "Happy Anniversary" was well-placed, IMO: for a show
ostensibly about an group of paranormal private investigators, ANGEL
experiences an awful lot of navel-gazing. When we do see what goes on
outside Angel Investigation's unique personnel structure, it usually
seems obligatory and forced. I would only cite three or four real
examples in all of S2 ("Untouched," "Guise Will Be Guise," the
abominably poorly written "Blood Money," and "Happy Anniversary").
"Happy Anniversary" took an outsider's perspective, which was odd, but
worked well. The show always feels uncomfortable focusing on Angel as
hero, and works best with the character when he's central, but not
neccessarily a figurehead. The Host was better used here than he was
ever used before or since, really seizing control of the action in an
enjoyable way. And it did what both BTVS and ANGEL do best: manage to
tackle a serious, creepy idea without an overabundance of melodrama.
It was dark and disturbing, but had a central concept of redemption
that was lacking from several of the other "dark beige Angel" episodes
during this period (the aforementioned "Blood Money" and
"Redefinition").
But then, hey, I'm weird. ;-)
millernate
> >Subject: Re: Joss V. Marti: SMACKDOWN!
> >From: Shawn Hill sh...@fas.harvard.edu
> >Date: 12/3/2001 12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <9uf25l$412$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>
> >
> >AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >: Dopplegangland--friggin' excellent. And not just on the hormonal level for
> me.
> >: :)
> >
> >I wasn't as impressed by this second visit to Wish-world. It's funny
> >enough, but Anya really saves it for me.
>
> You're my polar opposite. :) I found Dopplegangland much preferable to The
> Wish.
>
Well they both had different theme's so it is a matter of personal
taste as to which theme you prefer. I personally found The Wish more
fun while Dopplegangerland was a technically better episode. They
were both fun.
> >: Graduation 1--Excellent
>
> >: Graduation 2--Excellenter. :) The more time passes, the more I think they
> >: should have gone out on that high note.
> >
> >But they weren't done.
>
> I'm not so sure about that...
>
> IMHO the biggest problem with S4 and S5, among the many problems with them, was
> that they lacked direction. Their really wasn't much of a story left to tell
> there. The series has never really recovered from losing the high school and
> adolescence as hell metaphor. One of the things that S6 has going for it so
> far is that there's been a sense of direction floating beneath the surface,
> obscurred though it may be by B/S stuff.
>
Season 5 did have direction. I found it among the top television
dramas on free TV at the time (and with the notable exception of The
Sopranos the best show on at the time) and as a basis of comparison,
this was during the period of time that I watched West Wing regularly.
> >:>The Freshman
>
> >: One of the few S4 eps that can be called good by any stretch of the
> >: imagination.
> >
> >Really? A little lackluster and unfocused, I actually PREFER Living
> >Conditions, and then there's Hush and the Yoko Factor and Primevel and
> >Restless. It may have started poor, but it had a big finish!
>
> For me, it all comes down to one word:
>
> Sunday.
>
> I found her to be the most engaging villain S4 offered up. And it's not a good
> sign when a season's most engaging villain gets offed in the first ep. :)
>
I found Sunday annoying so thus I didn't care.
> <snip>
>
> >:>The Body
>
> >: Second worst episode ever, though more for the direction than the script.
> >
> >a) what's the first and
> >
> >b) the direction was brilliant, and augmented the themes of the script
> >amazingly.
>
> If you can unearth the David Hines review of The Body, do so. It does a much
> better job of summing up my gripes with the ep than I could. It was, as he
> called it, an hour of "Gee, death sure is sad," lacking in any substance or
> depth, despite how much the directorial prententious at work tried to make it
> look like it possessed such. It was audience manipulating Emmy grubbing of the
> worst and most transparent degree, and I was overjoyed when they didn't get
> rewarded with a nomination for it.
>
Didn't David Hines stop having a website at the end of season 4? I
mean the only website that listed his reviews stops there. Ah well, I
found this a beautiful portrait of dealing with loss and an excellent
stage for the actor's to show their abililties. I, as well as many
others feel that this show was more deserving of an emmy nomination
than Hush was. Though if Dave did say such about this episode than
that only cements my opinion of him as a critic (about only Michael
Medved and Sep from Mightybigtv and that isn't good kids). Such is
life though.
I personally don't have a problem with this. I don't feel it works as
well as most of the other season finales (with the notable exception
of the perenially overrated Restless) but it still works for what it
was. You feel I'm wrong? Perhaps I am but what's a man to do?
> >:>Once More, with Feeling
>
> >: Excellent through the last act. The episode, and S6 ever since, collapsed
> with
> >: the final act.
> >
> >As if it hadn't been heading there since Something Blue at least? If not
> >Lover's Walk?
>
> Here were my two biggest problems with the resolution to OMWF.
>
> (1) I can't buy Xander being the one to summon all this. Almost anyone else in
> the Scoobies I could have accepted (especially Dawn or Willow), but not Xander.
> It harkens back too much to the pre "I am nobody's butt monkey" version of
> Xander, and undoes the character growth that has occurred since then. Also,
> Xander's knows first hand the dangers of magic gone awry (BB&B), and for all
> his other faults, he's usually not one to make the same mistake twice.
>
> And (2) the whole B/S crap. Simply stomach turning.
>
The B/S stuff I could stomach in this episode. Almost immeadiately
after it went south but here it worked.
> >:>ANGEL
> >:>
> >:>City of (w/David Greenwalt)
>
> >: Very good, I've always felt.
> >
> >Why?
>
> I loved the tone and atmosphere the episode created for this new series. And,
> as someone else commented, it managed to suck me into a show I was convinced I
> was going to loathe. I DESPISED Angel during his time on Buffy. I never
> thought he should've been made a regular after S1, or brought back from hell
> after S2. But he clicked with me in this new show, and he did so from the
> start of City Of. That was no small feat.
>
I didn't really watch season 1 Angel thus I don't care.
> >:>Bad Eggs
>
> >: Held the title of worst Buffy episode ever for a time. Still in the Bottom
> >: Ten.
> >
> >But....Xander boiled his!!
>
> Which was a hysterical moment, but about the lone highlight for me. It clearly
> existed just to fill the gap between Ted and Surprise.
>
It has Lyle Gourch so it get's above the crap line (that line above
which things are good and below which are bad) but not by much.
> <rest snipped>
>
> --Darryl
>
> "Unrequited love--it's fantastic, 'cause it never has to change, it never has
> to grow up, and it never has to die." Vince Tyler, "Queer as Folk" UK
Nathan-soon to be working on budgeting college assignments (*ugh* :( )
Tom Breton
> >THE BAD
> >
> >Bad Eggs, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beasts (All Men are Beasts),
> >Living
> >Conditions, Doomed, She, Into the Woods, Buffy vs. Dracula
>
>
> Is "Into the Woods" really generally seen as universally bad? Granted, it
> wasn't the best episode ever, but I don't really consider it a bad episode. Am
> I alone on this one?
There was a lot of controversy on the ng when ITW aired. It mostly
centered on Xander's speech to Buffy about Riley, especially his line
"once-in-a-lifetime guy", and Buffy's last-minute run to Riley.
People who hated the episode mostly cited those things.
Myself, I was largely relieved that ITW was not as bad as I had
feared. I was OK with Xander's speech, and the only thing I had
against Buffy's run is that the ending was telegraphed a mile away.
Literally. Possibly more.
--
Tom Breton, recently t...@world.std.com
Now at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom
BTVS geek code, http://panix.com/~tehom/btvs-geek-code.html
1+ 2+++ 3- 4- 5- 6+++? W--- Bbot+++ F+ Dar++ J+? W&Moloch+++
B&S+++ XL+++ Cru--- Gav--- SR-! JM++ JW---- TM--- MN- DF--- JE+
Maggie Morris
(JPHALT) wrote:
> Oh, I want to play too.
Me too!
> >What Joss Has Written:
> >
> >BUFFY
> >
> >Welcome to the Hellmouth
> >The Harvest
I think the pilot is fine, but not nearly the best the show has to offer.
> >Prophecy Girl
I like this more each time I see it.
> >When She Was Bad
I LOVE this episode -- is it really seen as "universally bad," as it was
originally said?
> >Lie to Me
MAD overrated.
> >Ted
Fine. Campy fun.
> >Innocence
Really good, and I think it must have been even better as a surprise -- I
saw it after already knowing Angel went bad.
> >Becoming Part 1
> >Becoming Part 2
The second half is better than the first, but altogether fantastic.
Except the Whistler voiceover.
> >Anne
Crappy.
> >Amends
Better with time, I think. I can't blame Buffy's silly bangs on Joss.
> >Doppelgangland
Good, but I think it's a little overrated.
> >Graduation Day 1 & 2
Good. A solid end to the most solid season.
> >The Freshman
*sigh* It's fine. I don't despise it as a lot of people seem to, but I'm
ok with it.
> >Hush
Excellent.
> >Who Are You
Also Excellent.
> >Restless
Thrice Excellent.
> >Family
Another one that's widely despised but I don't actively hate. Although I
think the Tara surprise could have been WAY better.
> >The Body
Great, though I understand the complaints from some.
> >The Gift
There are many, many reasons I feel I should hate this episode, but it was
pulled off phenominally well. I'm very, very torn.
> >Once More, with Feeling
Very good, though I think it's becoming very overrated. I didn't feel it
was the second coming or anything.
> >ANGEL
> >
> >City of (w/David Greenwalt)
Fine.
> >Sanctuary (w/Tim Minear)
Great. That Buffy punch was a jump-up-and-down moment for me.
I already rated the Marti episodes, except for...
> >ANGEL
> >
> >She (co-written with David Greenwalt)
I think I'm the only person who actually liked this. But the dance
sequence was, like, an automatic four stars for me.
-mags
--
Willow: Promise me you'll never be linear.
Oz: On my trout.
Frank Swarbrick
Except BBB, of course. Funniest episode of the series, IMO. Of course
I've heard claims it was rewritten by Joss, so...
--
Frank Swarbrick -- now powered by SuSE Linux 7.2
home: inf...@sprynet.com / work: frank.s...@efirstbank.com
"I'm very seldom naughty" --Willow Rosenberg, 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'
Frank Swarbrick
Joss only got co-story credit for "Happy Anniversary". He also got it
for "I Fall To Pieces" and "Judgment". (All with David Greenwalt) All
Angel episodes. He got story or co-story credit on some Buffy episodes
also that you didn't mention ("Nightmares", "Out of Mind, Out of Sight"
and "School Hard" (the latter with David Greenwalt). I'm guessing that
was intentional, but you wouldn't want to count HA without counting
these.
Daniel Solomon
>>The Prom
>
>Great.
I don't get it. Outside of the "Class Protector" award and Xander paying
for Cordelia's dress, what is there to like about this episode? It had one
of the worst MOTW (the above came from someone who complained about the
zombies in "Dead Man's Party) ever in the series. I honestly believe that
most people just block out the first 50 minutes of the episode and rate it
only based on the Prom scenes at the end.
--
Daniel Solomon, dsol...@enteract.com
"No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck."
Daniel Solomon
<3C0C2DDD...@sprynet.com>:
>MeghanNYC wrote:
>>
>> I'm not going to rate each episode--although I agree with the poster
>> who thinks that David Greenwlat made Joss better on Buffy--but, for
>> me, Marti has one simple
>> failing: she's not funny. She can be dramatic. She can be
>> interesting. (I'd rate The Wish quite high on my all-time list, maybe
>> even top-10) But, she just isn't funny. Joss, even at his weakest,
>> is funny. And when he mixes drama and humor, he's top-notch.
>
>Except BBB, of course. Funniest episode of the series, IMO. Of course
>I've heard claims it was rewritten by Joss, so...
>
The fact that it was so funny when most of Marti's comedy falls flat makes
me believe that Joss had a part in crafting it. I also believe that
Doppelgangland (and The Zeppo) were funnier episodes.
Shawn Hill
:>b) the direction was brilliant, and augmented the themes of the script
:>amazingly.
: If you can unearth the David Hines review of The Body, do so. It does a much
: better job of summing up my gripes with the ep than I could. It was, as he
Uhm, you REALLY don't want to go there, grasshopper. That entirely
useless, grandstanding, unjustified, pretentious and shocking
mis-reading of the episode was the last straw for me (and many others) in
ever taking Hines seriously again. All that review exposed was his own
flaws as a critic.
At least on Buffy: he's generally more readable when it comes to Angel.
: called it, an hour of "Gee, death sure is sad," lacking in any substance or
: depth, despite how much the directorial prententious at work tried to make it
: look like it possessed such. It was audience manipulating Emmy grubbing of the
: worst and most transparent degree, and I was overjoyed when they didn't get
: rewarded with a nomination for it.
OR: it was an incredibly moving and involving insight into the
mind-numbing pain of experiencing the shocking death of a loved one. It
was a depth-charge of mourning.
: Both reactions are very believable. You can understand them, you can empathize
: with them, and any of us in the exact situation might very well make the same
: choices.
: The thing is, both choices were wrong. Angel the Series had the guts to take
: Angel the Character to task over it. Buffy the Series was too busy trying to
: canonize her for her actions.
obAngel: For like a week or two, until they forgot all the hub-bub and
upgraded Black/Gray Angel to Brown/Naughehyde/Rosy Pink Again Angel and
went romping in Pylea.
obBuffy: She's still paying the price for her decisions in The Gift,
that's sort of what this season is about.
: And then there's the logical flaw in the resolution. If Dawn is the mystical
: all powerful Key that can unlock the doors to all the dimensions, then there
: has to be something about her that is unique to everyone else on the planet.
: We're led to believe that this is her blood, and that her blood is the essence
: of her Keyness. Yet, if Buffy's blood and Dawn's blood are interchangable,
: then there was nothing at all unique about her. Unless something was done to
: Buffy's blood in the process of creating Dawn, but that's pure conjecture. If
: Buffy's blood had the same qualities as Dawn's, then there was no point of the
: monks creating Dawn in the first place. Buffy's blood would have worked all
: along.
Well, really, they could have destroyed the Key rather than let Glory
ever have it. But they didn't want to destroy it...like Buffy, they felt
it was worth saving.
: Here were my two biggest problems with the resolution to OMWF.
: (1) I can't buy Xander being the one to summon all this. Almost anyone else in
: the Scoobies I could have accepted (especially Dawn or Willow), but not Xander.
: It harkens back too much to the pre "I am nobody's butt monkey" version of
: Xander, and undoes the character growth that has occurred since then. Also,
: Xander's knows first hand the dangers of magic gone awry (BB&B), and for all
: his other faults, he's usually not one to make the same mistake twice.
This marriage thing has him REALLY freaked out, though.
: And (2) the whole B/S crap. Simply stomach turning.
Sadly for you, a theme of the season that's been building for a while.
: thought he should've been made a regular after S1, or brought back from hell
: after S2. But he clicked with me in this new show, and he did so from the
: start of City Of. That was no small feat.
Yeah, I expected to loathe the show, too. Or, I hoped I wouldn't, and if
they'd painted Angel as Macho!Action! stock figure (as I'd feared) I
would have. I was mostly indifferent the first season, but Angel's
(legion of) flaws have actually been significant in drawing me in. He has
feet of clay, which is far more interesting than him just swashbuckling
and saving all the damsels.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:> If you can unearth the David Hines review of The Body, do so. It does a much
:> better job of summing up my gripes with the ep than I could. It was, as he
:> called it, an hour of "Gee, death sure is sad," lacking in any substance or
:> depth, despite how much the directorial prententious at work tried to make it
:> look like it possessed such. It was audience manipulating Emmy grubbing of the
:> worst and most transparent degree, and I was overjoyed when they didn't get
:> rewarded with a nomination for it.
:>
: Didn't David Hines stop having a website at the end of season 4? I
: mean the only website that listed his reviews stops there. Ah well, I
Blueshifted.com posts some S5 reviews of Buffy by Hines, but his take on
The Body actually prompted a site-owner rebuttal, after which sparse to
none Hines reviews of Buffy on the site. Read between the lines at will.
: I personally don't have a problem with this. I don't feel it works as
: well as most of the other season finales (with the notable exception
: of the perenially overrated Restless) but it still works for what it
: was. You feel I'm wrong? Perhaps I am but what's a man to do?
Only overrated to those who don't like it. Like The Body, and The Gift,
Restless is divisive. Hush and OMWF seem to be more generally praised
than those first three.
Shawn
EGK
>AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>:>b) the direction was brilliant, and augmented the themes of the script
>:>amazingly.
>
>: If you can unearth the David Hines review of The Body, do so. It does a much
>: better job of summing up my gripes with the ep than I could. It was, as he
>
>Uhm, you REALLY don't want to go there, grasshopper. That entirely
>useless, grandstanding, unjustified, pretentious and shocking
>mis-reading of the episode was the last straw for me (and many others) in
>ever taking Hines seriously again. All that review exposed was his own
>flaws as a critic.
>
>At least on Buffy: he's generally more readable when it comes to Angel.
>
>: called it, an hour of "Gee, death sure is sad," lacking in any substance or
>: depth, despite how much the directorial prententious at work tried to make it
>: look like it possessed such. It was audience manipulating Emmy grubbing of the
>: worst and most transparent degree, and I was overjoyed when they didn't get
>: rewarded with a nomination for it.
>
>OR: it was an incredibly moving and involving insight into the
>mind-numbing pain of experiencing the shocking death of a loved one. It
>was a depth-charge of mourning.
I had to laugh at you calling Hines' review pretentious then tossing in this
little tidbit. I could take or leave The Body but one thing's for sure, it
had nothing to do with an enjoyable little tv show called Buffy the Vampire
Slayer. Pretentious is exactly what that episode was.
What's worse, it wrote out of the series the last "real" character that
existed on the show.
It's ironic. That episode was perhaps more in keeping with the real world
then any other episode in the series. At the same time it marked the end of
all pretence that there were actually real people populating the Buffyverse
any longer as anything but extras.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
- (Calvin and Hobbes)
Shawn Hill
: On 4 Dec 2001 16:58:40 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:>OR: it was an incredibly moving and involving insight into the
:>mind-numbing pain of experiencing the shocking death of a loved one. It
:>was a depth-charge of mourning.
: I had to laugh at you calling Hines' review pretentious then tossing in this
: little tidbit. I could take or leave The Body but one thing's for sure, it
: had nothing to do with an enjoyable little tv show called Buffy the Vampire
: Slayer. Pretentious is exactly what that episode was.
: What's worse, it wrote out of the series the last "real" character that
: existed on the show.
In a fantasy, how is that a problem? Are the main characters not "real"
to you just because they have special powers and abilities? Do they lose
all personality and audience empathy when they learn how to levitate?
shawn
EGK
Yes, pretty much. People have unflatteringly compared the scoobies to The
Justice League of America in here before. They become total comic book
characters or caricatures when there are no real people to interact with and
it doesn't help that they operate in an almost total vacuum.
When was the last time they even introduced a high profile or recurring
character that wasn't a demon or another quasi superhero of some kind?
Parker? Where are the Snyders or Jennys or Owens or Larrys or Harmonys
(pre-vampire) or even Jonathan (pre super nerd)? Where the hell is the real
world that they're supposed to be saving?
To me, this aspect is what they lost most when making the transition from
the High School setting. They've never really succeeded in integrating the
adult characters in to the post HS world. The college is simply another
extra for those still going to school. Nothing much happens there like it
did in HS. Xander has an apparently good paying job he never has to
actually go to. He's almost always around during daylight hours. Giles has
had nothing much to do for a couple of years and is now mercifully gone.
About the only places we even see them now are Buffy's home or the Magic
Box. Having the characters always in the library worked when they were in
HS. The Magic Box was a lame way to try and recreate that so even the
writers seem to realize things are missing from the earlier years.
It also doesn't help that Tara is about the only likeable character left on
the show for me right now. I find myself constantly rooting for Spike to
get the chip out and kill the rest of these whiny little self absorbed
Dawson Creek rejects. <G>
AlyAdmirer
>Message-id: <9uivc0$nke$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>
>
>AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>:>b) the direction was brilliant, and augmented the themes of the script
>:>amazingly.
>
>: If you can unearth the David Hines review of The Body, do so. It does a
>much
>: better job of summing up my gripes with the ep than I could. It was, as he
>
>Uhm, you REALLY don't want to go there, grasshopper. That entirely
>useless, grandstanding, unjustified, pretentious and shocking
>mis-reading of the episode was the last straw for me (and many others) in
>ever taking Hines seriously again. All that review exposed was his own
>flaws as a critic.
>
>At least on Buffy: he's generally more readable when it comes to Angel.
>
>: called it, an hour of "Gee, death sure is sad," lacking in any substance or
>: depth, despite how much the directorial prententious at work tried to make
>it
>: look like it possessed such. It was audience manipulating Emmy grubbing of
>the
>: worst and most transparent degree, and I was overjoyed when they didn't get
>: rewarded with a nomination for it.
>
>OR: it was an incredibly moving and involving insight into the
>mind-numbing pain of experiencing the shocking death of a loved one. It
>was a depth-charge of mourning.
My mother was killed unexpectedly five years ago, in a car crash during a cross
country trip. The Body bore as much resemblance to the experience of suddenly
losing her than your post does. :)
Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the shocking
loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
<snip>
>: And then there's the logical flaw in the resolution. If Dawn is the
>mystical
>: all powerful Key that can unlock the doors to all the dimensions, then
>there
>: has to be something about her that is unique to everyone else on the
>planet.
>: We're led to believe that this is her blood, and that her blood is the
>essence
>: of her Keyness. Yet, if Buffy's blood and Dawn's blood are interchangable,
>: then there was nothing at all unique about her. Unless something was done
>to
>: Buffy's blood in the process of creating Dawn, but that's pure conjecture.
>If
>: Buffy's blood had the same qualities as Dawn's, then there was no point of
>the
>: monks creating Dawn in the first place. Buffy's blood would have worked
>all
>: along.
>
>Well, really, they could have destroyed the Key rather than let Glory
>ever have it. But they didn't want to destroy it...like Buffy, they felt
>it was worth saving.
You're missing the point concerning the logical flaw. What was the point of
creating Dawn in the first place? What makes her so unique if her blood and
Buffy's blood are interchangable? If there's someone who shares the trait
that's suppose to make her the One Thing That Can Bring About the End of the
World, then she's not that one thing that can do so. if that's the case, then
the monks were even more stupid than we thought, since they essentially gave
Glory TWO chances to nab a Key instead of the one that existed since Buffy's
birth.
>: Here were my two biggest problems with the resolution to OMWF.
>
>: (1) I can't buy Xander being the one to summon all this. Almost anyone
>else in
>: the Scoobies I could have accepted (especially Dawn or Willow), but not
>Xander.
>: It harkens back too much to the pre "I am nobody's butt monkey" version of
>: Xander, and undoes the character growth that has occurred since then.
>Also,
>: Xander's knows first hand the dangers of magic gone awry (BB&B), and for
>all
>: his other faults, he's usually not one to make the same mistake twice.
>
>This marriage thing has him REALLY freaked out, though.
Eh. Yes, the marriage thing has him freaked. But he's an experienced enough
Scooby to know that you just don't toy with summoning demons, lest people get
hurt or killed.
This is another of the myriad of problems that have developed post season
three. Xander being responsible was clearly intended for the laugh value.
There was a time when the humor came naturally out of the characters. Now,
actions are grafted onto the characters just to get a cheap laugh, whether
they're something the character would do or not.
George Avalos
> I could take or leave The Body but one thing's for sure, it
> had nothing to do with an enjoyable little tv show called Buffy the Vampire
> Slayer. Pretentious is exactly what that episode was.
> What's worse, it wrote out of the series the last "real" character that
> existed on the show.
> It's ironic. That episode was perhaps more in keeping with the real world
> then any other episode in the series. At the same time it marked the end of
> all pretence that there were actually real people populating the Buffyverse
> any longer as anything but extras.
The problem here, if you're trying to use the death of Joyce Summers
as the pivotal moment of departure for that aspect of the show, is
that in every season, Joyce has been pretty muchn no more than an
extra.
The relationship between Buffy and her mother was beautifully
portrayed throughout. Her best moments may have been when she told
Angel to get lost for Buffy's sake, when she defended Buffy against
Spike with the ax, when she had the Little Red Riding Hood talk with
Buffy and when Joyce realized that Buffy had to protect Dawn as if
Dawn were actually related to Buffy and Mrs. Summers. (That moment,
BTW, leads to an interesting moment of continuity for Spike that
resurfaced in Becoming 2, Fool for Love, and now this season, but
that's a story for another day.)
But as nifty as those moments were, they amounted to Mrs. Summers'
role the entire 5-plus years: She's been an extra.
Plus, the characters, while being super-powered or capable of
manipulating natural forces, are all portrayed very much as regular
people. We see our own struggles through them. They are not so
extravagantly separated from our own lives that we can't relate to
them. There are ongoing real-life problems, recast with the fantasy
metaphor, that continue even to the end of the 'Wrecked' episode.
So it's really more than a pretense that real people populate the
show. That theme persists.
-George
millernate
Time for me to chuck my $.015 into the fray (hey I'm a college student
and we have to save expenses wherever we can :) ) and say that I don't
know what show you've been watching but Buffy hasn't just been an
"enjoyable little tv show" since the first season. In season 2-3, and
5 (season 4 followed the magnum p.i. formula of having a few excellent
episodes interspaced between several mediocre ones) has been one of
tv's best dramas. The Body was the cummulation of that as it was one
of the finest hours of tv drama I've seen. By the way, what makes
Xander "special" or "unreal" compared to the standard man? Just
wondering.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
> didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
> - (Calvin and Hobbes)
Nathan
"What is a cult but a group not having enough members to make a
minority."-film director Robert Altman (who was accussed of being
pretientious himself)
millernate
I did find the David Hines THe Body review)>
> : I personally don't have a problem with this. I don't feel it works as
> : well as most of the other season finales (with the notable exception
> : of the perenially overrated Restless) but it still works for what it
> : was. You feel I'm wrong? Perhaps I am but what's a man to do?
>
> Only overrated to those who don't like it. Like The Body, and The Gift,
> Restless is divisive. Hush and OMWF seem to be more generally praised
> than those first three.
>
> Shawn
Maybe it's because I was in and out the whole season but, to me, this
episode always just seemed like they were trying to ape Twin Peaks and
failing (of course I was and am a Twin Peaks fan so maybe I'm just
bitter :) ).
Nathan
EGK
>EGK <e...@hotmail.com>
>
>
>> I could take or leave The Body but one thing's for sure, it
>> had nothing to do with an enjoyable little tv show called Buffy the Vampire
>> Slayer. Pretentious is exactly what that episode was.
>> What's worse, it wrote out of the series the last "real" character that
>> existed on the show.
>> It's ironic. That episode was perhaps more in keeping with the real world
>> then any other episode in the series. At the same time it marked the end of
>> all pretence that there were actually real people populating the Buffyverse
>> any longer as anything but extras.
>
>The problem here, if you're trying to use the death of Joyce Summers
>as the pivotal moment of departure for that aspect of the show, is
>that in every season, Joyce has been pretty muchn no more than an
>extra.
Depends on how you define extra. Joyce was a fairly well defined character
for someone who wasn't given star billing. So were Jenny and Snyder and
Larry and Harmony. We felt we knew who these people were. When I think of
extras I think of people like the guy in the bank Buffy goes to for a loan
this year. Someone we're likely to never see again and not care about
anyway. That's a big difference for me.
>The relationship between Buffy and her mother was beautifully
>portrayed throughout. Her best moments may have been when she told
>Angel to get lost for Buffy's sake, when she defended Buffy against
>Spike with the ax, when she had the Little Red Riding Hood talk with
>Buffy and when Joyce realized that Buffy had to protect Dawn as if
>Dawn were actually related to Buffy and Mrs. Summers. (That moment,
>BTW, leads to an interesting moment of continuity for Spike that
>resurfaced in Becoming 2, Fool for Love, and now this season, but
>that's a story for another day.)
>
>But as nifty as those moments were, they amounted to Mrs. Summers'
>role the entire 5-plus years: She's been an extra.
All those things you mention above go far behind the category of mere extra.
Those were all things that defined who and what that character was. I miss
Joyce just like I'll miss Giles. Giles didn't have a hell of a lot more to
do in the last couple of years either.
>Plus, the characters, while being super-powered or capable of
>manipulating natural forces, are all portrayed very much as regular
>people. We see our own struggles through them. They are not so
>extravagantly separated from our own lives that we can't relate to
>them. There are ongoing real-life problems, recast with the fantasy
>metaphor, that continue even to the end of the 'Wrecked' episode.
All I can say to that is I'll compare my real life to the way Buffy's is
portrayed when someone hands me a big check to cover all my bills for an
undetermined period of time. :)
I'm far removed from my High School years but I could even relate to and
care about these characters during that period. Now I find myself not
caring much at all. With Giles gone, Xander is the only one of the whole
bunch who either doesn't have some super power or isn't a demon of one kind
of another. Of course he also has an apparently very well paid construction
job he seems to be able to take off from whenever he pleases also. That's
even harder to believe in then vampires and demons.
>So it's really more than a pretense that real people populate the
>show. That theme persists.
>
And i'm not meaning to crap all over The Body. I thought it was very well
done television. It just isn't what i watch an escapist tv show like Buffy
the Vampire slayer for.
EGK
>Time for me to chuck my $.015 into the fray (hey I'm a college student
>and we have to save expenses wherever we can :) ) and say that I don't
>know what show you've been watching but Buffy hasn't just been an
>"enjoyable little tv show" since the first season. In season 2-3, and
>5 (season 4 followed the magnum p.i. formula of having a few excellent
>episodes interspaced between several mediocre ones) has been one of
>tv's best dramas. The Body was the cummulation of that as it was one
>of the finest hours of tv drama I've seen. By the way, what makes
>Xander "special" or "unreal" compared to the standard man? Just
>wondering.
I thought The Body was good drama and well made but not what I watch an
escapist tv show for. And yes, I do think it was very pretentious. Things
like that won't appeal to everyone the same.
As for Xander, one thing that makes him totally unreal is the fact he has a
job he only seems to need to go to when the plot demands it. Otherwise,
he's an extremely well paid construciton worker who's able to take off
during daylight hours at will. I can at least ignore that for dramatic
purposes but he's the only one left who is halfway normal now.
Shawn Hill
:>OR: it was an incredibly moving and involving insight into the
:>mind-numbing pain of experiencing the shocking death of a loved one. It
:>was a depth-charge of mourning.
: My mother was killed unexpectedly five years ago, in a car crash during a cross
: country trip. The Body bore as much resemblance to the experience of suddenly
: losing her than your post does. :)
As they say on NYPDBlue to people they don't know, "I'm sorry for your
loss." You just did exactly what Hines did in his review, tried to compare
your personal experience to Buffy's fictional one. It doesn't work,
because Buffy's a story I've been watching, and you're a person I don't
know.
: Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
: always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
: people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the shocking
: loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
To be succinct: [Shawn raises hand].
:>Well, really, they could have destroyed the Key rather than let Glory
:>ever have it. But they didn't want to destroy it...like Buffy, they felt
:>it was worth saving.
: You're missing the point concerning the logical flaw. What was the point of
: creating Dawn in the first place? What makes her so unique if her blood and
: Buffy's blood are interchangable? If there's someone who shares the trait
Not missing it, just not concerned with it at all. They made Dawn out of
Buffy, that's why their blood is the same. Why does it have to be blood?
Because it always is, when you're dealing with humans. Symbolically, it
had to be a sacrifice, to open or close the door.
: that's suppose to make her the One Thing That Can Bring About the End of the
: World, then she's not that one thing that can do so. if that's the case, then
She's not, she's the way of stopping it. Glory's the one bringing about
bad things. Why, if you follow your logic, have a key at all to the bad
place, in whatever form it's in? Does it open it, or close it?
: the monks were even more stupid than we thought, since they essentially gave
: Glory TWO chances to nab a Key instead of the one that existed since Buffy's
: birth.
They Key existed prior to Buffy, and could have been used at any time.
Making it human was a surpise for Glory, and a way of hiding it.
:>This marriage thing has him REALLY freaked out, though.
: Eh. Yes, the marriage thing has him freaked. But he's an experienced enough
: Scooby to know that you just don't toy with summoning demons, lest people get
: hurt or killed.
So not the point of the episode.
: This is another of the myriad of problems that have developed post season
: three. Xander being responsible was clearly intended for the laugh value.
: There was a time when the humor came naturally out of the characters. Now,
: actions are grafted onto the characters just to get a cheap laugh, whether
: they're something the character would do or not.
I think, in this case, they just thought too hard about how to explain
Sweet's appearance in Buffylogic; it's akin to Treknobabble...and just as
meaningful. They shouldn't have bothered. Sweet could have just said "I
heard a dark song in this town and came to check you out."
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: On 4 Dec 2001 19:36:43 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:>In a fantasy, how is that a problem? Are the main characters not "real"
:>to you just because they have special powers and abilities? Do they lose
:>all personality and audience empathy when they learn how to levitate?
: Yes, pretty much. People have unflatteringly compared the scoobies to The
: Justice League of America in here before. They become total comic book
: characters or caricatures when there are no real people to interact with and
: it doesn't help that they operate in an almost total vacuum.
They still have "real" situations to worry about...needs for money, Dawn's
schooling and caretaking, health problems, marriage, decisions about whom
to date, etc.
: When was the last time they even introduced a high profile or recurring
: character that wasn't a demon or another quasi superhero of some kind?
: Parker? Where are the Snyders or Jennys or Owens or Larrys or Harmonys
: (pre-vampire) or even Jonathan (pre super nerd)? Where the hell is the real
: world that they're supposed to be saving?
Jenny was a witch. I can't really point to other non-supernatural
regulars, but they're still there in the fabric of the background, making
banking decisions, parking near hydrants, going to the dry cleaners,
responding to EMS calls, etc.
: To me, this aspect is what they lost most when making the transition from
: the High School setting. They've never really succeeded in integrating the
: adult characters in to the post HS world. The college is simply another
: extra for those still going to school. Nothing much happens there like it
: did in HS. Xander has an apparently good paying job he never has to
: actually go to. He's almost always around during daylight hours. Giles has
We've seen Xander at his job, Buffy at his job, his own fears of losing
his job, and his fear that it won't be enough to impress Anya.
: had nothing much to do for a couple of years and is now mercifully gone.
Well, that I agree with. It was time for him to move on.
: About the only places we even see them now are Buffy's home or the Magic
: Box. Having the characters always in the library worked when they were in
: HS. The Magic Box was a lame way to try and recreate that so even the
: writers seem to realize things are missing from the earlier years.
It's led to lots of stories about magical items, and is a good cover for
their role as supernatural researches.
: It also doesn't help that Tara is about the only likeable character left on
: the show for me right now. I find myself constantly rooting for Spike to
: get the chip out and kill the rest of these whiny little self absorbed
: Dawson Creek rejects. <G>
And they were *less* so when they were teenagers?
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: On 4 Dec 2001 17:13:29 -0800, gav...@cctimes.com (George Avalos) wrote:
: All I can say to that is I'll compare my real life to the way Buffy's is
: portrayed when someone hands me a big check to cover all my bills for an
: undetermined period of time. :)
Happened to me last year. There were painful costs involved, but it's
pretty much the same.
: I'm far removed from my High School years but I could even relate to and
: care about these characters during that period. Now I find myself not
: caring much at all. With Giles gone, Xander is the only one of the whole
: bunch who either doesn't have some super power or isn't a demon of one kind
: of another. Of course he also has an apparently very well paid construction
: job he seems to be able to take off from whenever he pleases also. That's
: even harder to believe in then vampires and demons.
Have you met many construction workers? Half the time the boss is grateful
when somebody shows up regularly, and part-time or flexible schedules are
possible for reliable workers.
:>So it's really more than a pretense that real people populate the
:>show. That theme persists.
:>
: And i'm not meaning to crap all over The Body. I thought it was very well
: done television. It just isn't what i watch an escapist tv show like Buffy
: the Vampire slayer for.
There's different kinds of escapism. Far from feeling manipulated by Joss
in his focus on Buffy's sensory dissasociation at her earth-shattering
bad news, I recalled how my own personal loss felt at the time and felt
comforted that somebody (Joss the writer, SMG the actress) got it.
Shawn
EGK
>EGK <e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: On 4 Dec 2001 17:13:29 -0800, gav...@cctimes.com (George Avalos) wrote:
>
>: All I can say to that is I'll compare my real life to the way Buffy's is
>: portrayed when someone hands me a big check to cover all my bills for an
>: undetermined period of time. :)
>
>Happened to me last year. There were painful costs involved, but it's
>pretty much the same.
Wow, I don't know too many people who get handed a seemingly blank check to
take care of all their problems. We're never privy to the actual amount.
In any case, this was a cop-out for the episode in question. It basically
removed all of Buffy's problems she spent the episode trying to examine.
>: I'm far removed from my High School years but I could even relate to and
>: care about these characters during that period. Now I find myself not
>: caring much at all. With Giles gone, Xander is the only one of the whole
>: bunch who either doesn't have some super power or isn't a demon of one kind
>: of another. Of course he also has an apparently very well paid construction
>: job he seems to be able to take off from whenever he pleases also. That's
>: even harder to believe in then vampires and demons.
>
>Have you met many construction workers? Half the time the boss is grateful
>when somebody shows up regularly, and part-time or flexible schedules are
>possible for reliable workers.
heh, I WAS one for some time. And never saw anything like what you're
referring to. We often had to put in much more then the typcal 9 to 5 job
and if you didn't show up, you got fired. Xander isn't seen as working temp
or day jobs. He's even seen in a position of authority in Life Serial where
they used his job and his fellow workers as more caricature. He's mentioned
unions at least once i think. To afford the apartment they now show him
with, he'd have to be making some pretty good money even in Sunnydale.
>:>So it's really more than a pretense that real people populate the
>:>show. That theme persists.
>:>
>
>: And i'm not meaning to crap all over The Body. I thought it was very well
>: done television. It just isn't what i watch an escapist tv show like Buffy
>: the Vampire slayer for.
>
>There's different kinds of escapism. Far from feeling manipulated by Joss
>in his focus on Buffy's sensory dissasociation at her earth-shattering
>bad news, I recalled how my own personal loss felt at the time and felt
>comforted that somebody (Joss the writer, SMG the actress) got it.
To each their own. I sat watching the Body thinking that was Joss saying,
"hey the critics love me and I can crap and my fans will think it's gold.
I'm going for an emmy".
EGK
>EGK <e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: On 4 Dec 2001 19:36:43 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>:>In a fantasy, how is that a problem? Are the main characters not "real"
>:>to you just because they have special powers and abilities? Do they lose
>:>all personality and audience empathy when they learn how to levitate?
>
>: Yes, pretty much. People have unflatteringly compared the scoobies to The
>: Justice League of America in here before. They become total comic book
>: characters or caricatures when there are no real people to interact with and
>: it doesn't help that they operate in an almost total vacuum.
>
>They still have "real" situations to worry about...needs for money, Dawn's
>schooling and caretaking, health problems, marriage, decisions about whom
>to date, etc.
Giles took care of their need for money in one fell swoop. As for Dawn's
caretaking, that seems terribly fake to me too. It's an example of the plot
contrivances they've thrown in to actually keep their characters in this
vacuum. I watched Nightmares the other night and it was nice to see Buffy's
pre-retconned father . The one who actually loved and seemed to dote on his
daughter. To be fair, on that one they started changing him in season 3
with Helpless. I can see where all the bitching comes from about how they
treat fathers on this show.
>: When was the last time they even introduced a high profile or recurring
>: character that wasn't a demon or another quasi superhero of some kind?
>: Parker? Where are the Snyders or Jennys or Owens or Larrys or Harmonys
>: (pre-vampire) or even Jonathan (pre super nerd)? Where the hell is the real
>: world that they're supposed to be saving?
>
>Jenny was a witch. I can't really point to other non-supernatural
>regulars, but they're still there in the fabric of the background, making
>banking decisions, parking near hydrants, going to the dry cleaners,
>responding to EMS calls, etc.
Jenny was a witch but never the cartoon superhero type witch they've turned
in to. None of those people you've mentioned create a fabric because we
never know or care about any of them. We'll most likely never see any of
them again.
>: About the only places we even see them now are Buffy's home or the Magic
>: Box. Having the characters always in the library worked when they were in
>: HS. The Magic Box was a lame way to try and recreate that so even the
>: writers seem to realize things are missing from the earlier years.
>
>It's led to lots of stories about magical items, and is a good cover for
>their role as supernatural researches.
you mean their roles as superheroes to the exclusion of all else.
>: It also doesn't help that Tara is about the only likeable character left on
>: the show for me right now. I find myself constantly rooting for Spike to
>: get the chip out and kill the rest of these whiny little self absorbed
>: Dawson Creek rejects. <G>
>
>And they were *less* so when they were teenagers?
I thought so. I liked then all when then were in HS.
Ian Galbraith
:AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
[snip]
:: Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
:: always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
:: people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the shocking
:: loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
:To be succinct: [Shawn raises hand].
Another one here.
[snip]
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"Being cool requires no work. Mostly it requires detachment.
You can be cool and not care about being cool. Being hip
requires both style and effort. You can't be hip without
working at it." - The A.I. War by Daniel Keys Moran
Shawn Hill
: Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
: always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
: people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the shocking
: loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
[sorry, had more to say on reflection]:
This question posits the idea that the story wasn't successful as a
compelling or truly moving take on the loss of a loved one.
But it's not really the story (Buffy reacts to a major loss) that bugs
this episode's detractors, it's the style in which it was told. Where I
see accurate depiction of emotional and cognitive disassociation under
stress, others see stylistic pretension and un-called-for artiness.
I think Joss was innovative in using his medium (unexpected sounds +
unusual compositions/vision) to convey and share a subjective (and thus
universal) experience; others can't get past his willingness to dispense
with the storytelling conventions most shows and even Buffy generally
follow....ie, expressing most of the story in words/conversation/dialogue.
We didn't need to hear Buffy explain what she was feeling beacause it was
evident. No one had to say how great Joyce was because their pain was
written on their faces. There was no major supernatural threat because
this event eclipsed everything, temporarily.
Joss took amazing chances with this episode, and they worked. But not for
everyone; for some the stylistic leaps were simply too jarring, as they
were in Restless.
But not in Hush, which maintained, for all it's surreal affect, the Buffy
formula of threat, identification, reaction and resolution.
Buffy wasn't just speechless in The Body, she was thoughtless, painless,
hopeless....numb and devestated.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: On 5 Dec 2001 04:47:43 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:>Happened to me last year. There were painful costs involved, but it's
:>pretty much the same.
: Wow, I don't know too many people who get handed a seemingly blank check to
: take care of all their problems. We're never privy to the actual amount.
: In any case, this was a cop-out for the episode in question. It basically
: removed all of Buffy's problems she spent the episode trying to examine.
Undetermined is key here. It wasn't a million bucks. It will run out; and
Buffy's failing of Dawn is bigger than just monetary, as she's spiraling
out of control along with Willow.
:>Have you met many construction workers? Half the time the boss is grateful
:>when somebody shows up regularly, and part-time or flexible schedules are
:>possible for reliable workers.
: heh, I WAS one for some time. And never saw anything like what you're
: referring to. We often had to put in much more then the typcal 9 to 5 job
: and if you didn't show up, you got fired. Xander isn't seen as working temp
: or day jobs. He's even seen in a position of authority in Life Serial where
: they used his job and his fellow workers as more caricature. He's mentioned
: unions at least once i think. To afford the apartment they now show him
: with, he'd have to be making some pretty good money even in Sunnydale.
Unlike everyone else on TV, who has totally realistic apartments and homes
for their supposed economic level.
Sunnydale property values could be all over the map. Buffy couldn't even
get a loan on the house she owned.
:>There's different kinds of escapism. Far from feeling manipulated by Joss
:>in his focus on Buffy's sensory dissasociation at her earth-shattering
:>bad news, I recalled how my own personal loss felt at the time and felt
:>comforted that somebody (Joss the writer, SMG the actress) got it.
: To each their own. I sat watching the Body thinking that was Joss saying,
: "hey the critics love me and I can crap and my fans will think it's gold.
: I'm going for an emmy".
The Body was the same as crap?
Shawn
EGK
>EGK <e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: To each their own. I sat watching the Body thinking that was Joss saying,
>: "hey the critics love me and I can crap and my fans will think it's gold.
>: I'm going for an emmy".
>
>The Body was the same as crap?
It was for some people. Some loathed it. I think it was all over the map
in George's poll in here. I can't remember what I rated it, I think I gave
it about 3.5. I did see the good qualities of the episode. Like I said, it
just wasn't' what I watch Buffy for and it's not an episode I care to watch
again.
I wasn't saying the episode was crap. You have to admit tho, there's a lot
of "Joss is god" type posts in here sometimes as if anything he writes is
automatically golden. I've never understood that. I don't think i'd have
ever even known or cared who wrote individual episodes till I started
reading this newsgroup regularly in season 3.
Shawn Hill
: "Happy Anniversary" took an outsider's perspective, which was odd, but
: worked well. The show always feels uncomfortable focusing on Angel as
With an unsympathetic main character, and his plethora of whiny
friends/girlfriends? And the most disgusting motivation of anyone ever on
the show, demon or human....trapping his girlfriend in an eternal rape?
: hero, and works best with the character when he's central, but not
: neccessarily a figurehead. The Host was better used here than he was
: ever used before or since, really seizing control of the action in an
: enjoyable way. And it did what both BTVS and ANGEL do best: manage to
Wasn't this the one where he made lots of incongruent jokes about coeds
and breasteses? Or was that when they were looking for Fred?
Anyway, my favorite Lorne was when he was beheaded.
: tackle a serious, creepy idea without an overabundance of melodrama.
Hard to care about the soapiness of a bunch of people you've never met and
will never see again.
: It was dark and disturbing, but had a central concept of redemption
: that was lacking from several of the other "dark beige Angel" episodes
: during this period (the aforementioned "Blood Money" and
: "Redefinition").
It was technobabble-ridden and icky, but that's not the dark shade of
Angel I found fascinating.
Give me "Bethany" any day.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: On 5 Dec 2001 06:09:41 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:>EGK <e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>: To each their own. I sat watching the Body thinking that was Joss saying,
:>: "hey the critics love me and I can crap and my fans will think it's gold.
:>: I'm going for an emmy".
:>
:>The Body was the same as crap?
: I wasn't saying the episode was crap. You have to admit tho, there's a lot
: of "Joss is god" type posts in here sometimes as if anything he writes is
: automatically golden. I've never understood that. I don't think i'd have
Hence the very thread we're posting in.
: ever even known or cared who wrote individual episodes till I started
: reading this newsgroup regularly in season 3.
The whole show is Joss's baby, and many of his self-directed/written
episodes are exceptional (as were David Lynch's on Twin Peaks). They're
both auteurs working in tv as well as movies.
But for all the praise Joss gets here, there are plenty of detractors too,
especially those who prefer the work of Greenwalt, Minear, Espenson, etc.
I think knowing who the writers are is fun, and you can predict, if not
the "quality" of an ep, your potential to enjoy it, if you know the
writer. They each have characteristic styles/issues/etc. that may appeal
or not.
Shawn
Ebi
>AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>: My mother was killed unexpectedly five years ago, in a car crash during a cross
>: country trip. The Body bore as much resemblance to the experience of suddenly
>: losing her than your post does. :)
>
>As they say on NYPDBlue to people they don't know, "I'm sorry for your
>loss." You just did exactly what Hines did in his review, tried to compare
>your personal experience to Buffy's fictional one. It doesn't work,
>because Buffy's a story I've been watching, and you're a person I don't
>know.
See, I *liked* "The Body". It was good television. There's more to
making the show work than having a good story, and having good
insights -- although I believe the ep had both of those. What a person
can do with the visual medium of tv and movies is to really make us
feel something.
And while I guess it seemed a little too obvious for some, and a bit
too precious for others, I felt that the conceits of the episode (lack
of musical soundtrack, photography that gave objects and people a
"more real than real" aura, etc) really helped recreate the air
unreality that leaps in when you get suckerpunched by grief.
As Tara says, it's different for everyone. But there are still things
that a creative person can communicate about their partcular
experience (even if it's fiction) that resonate with people. The Body
- 4.5 stakes. YMMV.
EGK
>The whole show is Joss's baby, and many of his self-directed/written
>episodes are exceptional (as were David Lynch's on Twin Peaks). They're
>both auteurs working in tv as well as movies.
>
>But for all the praise Joss gets here, there are plenty of detractors too,
>especially those who prefer the work of Greenwalt, Minear, Espenson, etc.
>
>I think knowing who the writers are is fun, and you can predict, if not
>the "quality" of an ep, your potential to enjoy it, if you know the
>writer. They each have characteristic styles/issues/etc. that may appeal
>or not.
The reverse is also true. Some people see Marti Noxon's name on a script
and they start to hurl before the episode even airs. :)
Getting involved with this newsgroup can tilt your perception of the show.
I definitely believe that. I've watched past episodes and things I would
have shrugged off when watching alone get magnified when I read a lot of
people vehemently complaining about the same things. It's a bit of a mob
mentality at times or an example of jumping on a bandwagon. This is a
perfect example of fans as fanatics.
Strong feelings, positive and negative, show caring and that's generated by
a quality show. If everyone was indifferent BTVS would have probably been
canceled after it's first season.
I find the thread asking for people's worst episodes to be much more
entertaining and thoughtful then threads about the best. Read out of
context, you'd think it was all just bashing but to me it shows how really
in to the plots and characters people get.
Ebi
Galbraith) wrote:
>On 5 Dec 2001 04:58:31 GMT, Shawn Hill wrote:
>
>:AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>:: Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
>:: always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
>:: people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the shocking
>:: loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
>
>:To be succinct: [Shawn raises hand].
>
>Another one here.
>
>[snip]
>
Add me to the list.
Shawn Hill
: <muchas snippage of stuff I've agreed with (other than to mention that
Which one are we on, now Restless or The Body? There's definite
similarities between The Body (especially the telephone scene) and the TP
Pilot where Leland finds out Laura is dead, over the phone at the Great
Northern. And between Restless (and what it predicted about S5 and S6)
and the Series Finale (even to the point of the hero coming back
"wrong").
But, really, it's not like TP has a copyright on surrealism; both Lynch
and Whedon draw on the movies of the 20s and 30s, including Un Chien
Andalau, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, and Hitchcock.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: On 5 Dec 2001 07:35:58 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:>The whole show is Joss's baby, and many of his self-directed/written
:>episodes are exceptional (as were David Lynch's on Twin Peaks). They're
:>both auteurs working in tv as well as movies.
:>
:>But for all the praise Joss gets here, there are plenty of detractors too,
:>especially those who prefer the work of Greenwalt, Minear, Espenson, etc.
:>
:>I think knowing who the writers are is fun, and you can predict, if not
:>the "quality" of an ep, your potential to enjoy it, if you know the
:>writer. They each have characteristic styles/issues/etc. that may appeal
:>or not.
: I find the thread asking for people's worst episodes to be much more
: entertaining and thoughtful then threads about the best. Read out of
: context, you'd think it was all just bashing but to me it shows how really
: in to the plots and characters people get.
I get what you mean, but those threads usually bug the hell out of me,
because, unlike the best of lists (where I agree with a lot of em), many
of my favorite episodes end up on worst of lists.
Shawn
EGK
>EGK <e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>: I find the thread asking for people's worst episodes to be much more
>: entertaining and thoughtful then threads about the best. Read out of
>: context, you'd think it was all just bashing but to me it shows how really
>: in to the plots and characters people get.
>
>I get what you mean, but those threads usually bug the hell out of me,
>because, unlike the best of lists (where I agree with a lot of em), many
>of my favorite episodes end up on worst of lists.
haha, That's exactly why i like that thread. There's usually much more
variety among the worst list. Many of the episodes listed there are among
my favorites too. The Wish and Helpless and Puppet Show to name three were
all listed. It never bothers me when someone's likes or dislikes are
different from mine. I find it very interesting when people can express
why.
Kamil
"Shawn Hill" <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:9uk9hn$v55$4...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
: AlyAdmirer <alyad...@aol.com> wrote:
:
: My mother was killed unexpectedly five years ago, in a car crash during a
cross
: : country trip. The Body bore as much resemblance to the experience of
suddenly
: : losing her than your post does. :)
:
: : Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
: : always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
: : people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the
shocking
: : loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
:
: To be succinct: [Shawn raises hand].
Kamil raises her hand as well. To make it even more personal, The Body aired 15
years to the day of my mother's death and I approached the ep with a large drink
and the attitude of 'okay, Joss, show me whatcha got'. Many Kleenex and another
drink later I think he got it right -- at least from my pov and the way the
experiences and emotions played out for me.
To each their own, I suppose -- but I thought the insights were very insighty.
<g>
Kamil
Mad Hamish
>On 4 Dec 2001 17:29:42 -0800, mille...@my-deja.com (millernate) wrote:
>
>
>>Time for me to chuck my $.015 into the fray (hey I'm a college student
>>and we have to save expenses wherever we can :) ) and say that I don't
>>know what show you've been watching but Buffy hasn't just been an
>>"enjoyable little tv show" since the first season. In season 2-3, and
>>5 (season 4 followed the magnum p.i. formula of having a few excellent
>>episodes interspaced between several mediocre ones) has been one of
>>tv's best dramas. The Body was the cummulation of that as it was one
>>of the finest hours of tv drama I've seen. By the way, what makes
>>Xander "special" or "unreal" compared to the standard man? Just
>>wondering.
>
>I thought The Body was good drama and well made but not what I watch an
>escapist tv show for. And yes, I do think it was very pretentious.
Exactly what about the body was pretentious?
> Things like that won't appeal to everyone the same.
Not universally appealing <> pretentious
>As for Xander, one thing that makes him totally unreal is the fact he has a
>job he only seems to need to go to when the plot demands it.
There are 22 Buffy episodes per season. 1 Buffy season is 1 year of
Buffyworld time. So we see Xander in a very small percentage of his
time through the year.
Even with that there's nothing to say that he doesn't normally work
early and do most of the Scooby work after real work.
> Otherwise,
>he's an extremely well paid construciton worker who's able to take off
>during daylight hours at will. I can at least ignore that for dramatic
>purposes but he's the only one left who is halfway normal now.
Exactly what TV shows present life as per the real world?
--
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the
people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_l...@bigpond.com
EGK
>On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:01:25 -0500, EGK <e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I thought The Body was good drama and well made but not what I watch an
>>escapist tv show for. And yes, I do think it was very pretentious.
>Exactly what about the body was pretentious?
Maybe the fact that it had absolutely nothing to do with the tone of the
whole rest of the series? Lack of soundtrack to make it seem "special" Lots
of artsy camera angles and things like voice overs where Buffy hears
something different from what's spoken. You didnt find it pretentious and
that's fine. Lots of people did.
The musical could be called pretentious too but that at least moved the plot
of the show along. It wasn't like watching a completely different show all
of a sudden. It was a lot more entertaining then The Body and I can't even
hear the songs. :)
>> Things like that won't appeal to everyone the same.
>
>Not universally appealing <> pretentious
That has nothing to do with it. Joss once said he'd never do message shows
or "very special episodes" of Buffy the vampire slayer as if they were
afterschool specials. So far in my opinion they've done at least 3 like
that with The Body being one of them.
>>As for Xander, one thing that makes him totally unreal is the fact he has a
>>job he only seems to need to go to when the plot demands it.
>
>There are 22 Buffy episodes per season. 1 Buffy season is 1 year of
>Buffyworld time. So we see Xander in a very small percentage of his
>time through the year.
Yes, but we very often see him during daylight hours at the Magic Box
researching. Just as a couple examples, we saw Xander referreeing the fight
between Anya and Giles in Bargaining during store hours. We also saw Xander
able to take off during the day to go catch Giles plane. He only has a job
that requires his attention except when the writers want to point out he has
one.
>Even with that there's nothing to say that he doesn't normally work
>early and do most of the Scooby work after real work.
Never worked a construction job have you? When I did that we often worked
from like 7am till 5 or 6pm and lots of overtime.
>> Otherwise,
>>he's an extremely well paid construciton worker who's able to take off
>>during daylight hours at will. I can at least ignore that for dramatic
>>purposes but he's the only one left who is halfway normal now.
>
>Exactly what TV shows present life as per the real world?
Exactly what does the way other shows portray the real world have to do with
BTVS? None of the Friends should be able to live in the apartments they do
in NYC either. People ignore it. I never said Xander's work situation was
a huge problem by itself. I simply used it as one example to show none of
the characters seem to have lives or anything outside the scooby gang or the
magic box. Hell, the writers must notice this too since they've even had
Xander comment on it a couple of times. He's mentioned he needs a male
friend.
Rev. Cyohtee - O'kōhome Ehohatse
forth:
Yep. The Body felt the same for me as it did when my Grandfather died.
He and I were very close, and I walked around for over a week
completely outside myself, battling depression and a need to feel
something other than depressed. I didn't have the close friends Buffy
had to be there for her, and my parents and I aren't close enough for
them to have been able to help me, and my wife and I had just recently
separated, so I sat alone in my house and listened to old sad records
and cried a lot. The Body brought so many of those feelings back, I
was glad that I had my new wife to help me deal with the new swell of
emotions the show brought on.
--
Cyo cyo...@ucan.foad.org
http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org
"Who needs reasons when you've got hell?" - Trainspotting
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:But there were only 30 episodes- counting the Pilot. BtVS is at 110
:episodes and counting. If Twin Peaks had been renewed for a couple of
:more seasons I believe that the quality of the show would have
:declined greatly. It really is difficult to maintain quality over a
:long period of time. That's why BtVS gets kudos in my book for
:producing really good shows after 5 years. I would have liked to have
:seen more of Twin Peaks, but I realize that more of it might have
:watered it down as a whole. As it is, Twin Peaks is great partly
:because of its shortness.
And its conclusion. Personally I would like to have seen another season
of it, but I concede it may not be as well remembered if it had.
Sean Daugherty
> With an unsympathetic main character, and his plethora of whiny
> friends/girlfriends? And the most disgusting motivation of anyone ever on
> the show, demon or human....trapping his girlfriend in an eternal rape?
But that's just it: he was unsympathetic, but not evil in the
traditional quasi-clearcut Whedonverse way. It was an effective
parallel with Angel at that point, who had done some entirely
uncondonable things for personal reasons. That the episode was
extremely high on the moral questionability didn't really seem to be
an accident, and I think it worked much better here, for example, than
the abominable "Blood Money" (which gets my vote for worst episode of
ANGEL ever)
> Hard to care about the soapiness of a bunch of people you've never met and
> will never see again.
Eh. I didn't really see the episode as being contingent on caring
about them. I saw enough to know a least a basic amount about them.
The concept of the ANGEL series embraces this sort of "slice of life"
concept in its very nature: as a private investigator, Angel quite
often shows up after a lot of off-screen story has already been built
up. Hell, some of the best episodes use this ("Are You Know...",
"Untouched", etc.).
Yes, it was uncomfortable. Yes, it was occassionally "icky." But since
the entire show had been trying to accomplish this for several
episodes at this point, its odd that people single out one of the last
to actually feature this factor. And it still leaves me with far less
of a bad taste in my mouth than, both "Blood Money" and "Redefinition"
(maybe even "The Thin Dead Line"). At least in "Happy Anniversary"
there were at least one character (Lorne) who actually seemed
interested in something other than his own vendettas and acting at
least somewhat altruistically, which neither of the other three
episodes did. At least this attempted to show that a sense of goodness
didn't always get you left out on the street, or shot in the stomach.
Shawn Hill
:>Even with that there's nothing to say that he doesn't normally work
:>early and do most of the Scooby work after real work.
: Never worked a construction job have you? When I did that we often worked
: from like 7am till 5 or 6pm and lots of overtime.
All the workers on the Big Dig in boston (please, no Big Dig jokes) seem
to get off en masse around 3-4pm, having started their day at 6-7, to
judge from the subway.
: magic box. Hell, the writers must notice this too since they've even had
: Xander comment on it a couple of times. He's mentioned he needs a male
: friend.
And he does. They should work on that.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: often shows up after a lot of off-screen story has already been built
: up. Hell, some of the best episodes use this ("Are You Know...",
: "Untouched", etc.).
AYNOHYEB was a slice of *Angel's* life, as well; and Untouched was much
more related as it was another player with extra-normal abilities, coping
with one problem...childhood abuse. Not the same as walking on an entire
research facility and then walking them all back off.
: Yes, it was uncomfortable. Yes, it was occassionally "icky." But since
: the entire show had been trying to accomplish this for several
: episodes at this point, its odd that people single out one of the last
: to actually feature this factor. And it still leaves me with far less
: of a bad taste in my mouth than, both "Blood Money" and "Redefinition"
Blood Money was obvious but had some major use of some of the major
characters, and illustrated Wolfrham and Hart's corruption yet again.
: (maybe even "The Thin Dead Line"). At least in "Happy Anniversary"
Zombie cops are cool. And especially poignant in an LA setting.
: there were at least one character (Lorne) who actually seemed
: interested in something other than his own vendettas and acting at
: least somewhat altruistically, which neither of the other three
: episodes did. At least this attempted to show that a sense of goodness
: didn't always get you left out on the street, or shot in the stomach.
Lorne often shows that, though; he could have done it in a better context
than HA.
Shawn
Sean Daugherty
> Sean Daugherty <sean.da...@oberlin.edu> wrote:
>
> : often shows up after a lot of off-screen story has already been built
> : up. Hell, some of the best episodes use this ("Are You Know...",
> : "Untouched", etc.).
>
> AYNOHYEB was a slice of *Angel's* life, as well; and Untouched was much
> more related as it was another player with extra-normal abilities, coping
> with one problem...childhood abuse. Not the same as walking on an entire
> research facility and then walking them all back off.
True on both counts, but then I would counter with the idea that
"Happy Anniversary" was as much about Angel and his development as
AYNOHYEB. Lots of focus on Angel's choice, and one of the first times
we get a contextual example, via metaphor, of Angel's actions perhaps
not being the wisest course he could follow.
> Blood Money was obvious but had some major use of some of the major
> characters, and illustrated Wolfrham and Hart's corruption yet again.
In a rather pathetic and ineffective way. So much of the story arc
relied on the idea of Wolfram and Hart being both in-the-know and
concerned with a greater evil than simple embezzlement. "Blood Money"
showed them as more incompetent than evil, and had nary a single truly
likable character.
> : (maybe even "The Thin Dead Line"). At least in "Happy Anniversary"
>
> Zombie cops are cool. And especially poignant in an LA setting.
I'll give you that it was a decent idea, it was just pulled off
horribly. Tedious, too violent, even by ANGEL's standards, and the
central villain just rang false, being both two-dimensional and
oddly... goofy.
> : there were at least one character (Lorne) who actually seemed
> : interested in something other than his own vendettas and acting at
> : least somewhat altruistically, which neither of the other three
> : episodes did. At least this attempted to show that a sense of goodness
> : didn't always get you left out on the street, or shot in the stomach.
>
> Lorne often shows that, though; he could have done it in a better context
> than HA.
I'm not sure. The point of using Lorne to illustrate this point is
that he's literally the only one: he's the glimmer of hope in the mess
that Angel's life had become. He needed to stand alone amongst a group
of people (and vampires, I guess) so blatantly self-absorbed. It was
uncomfortable in subject manner because you were supposed to be
getting the impression that the path Angel, and the geeky mad
scientist, were following were destructive. And its quite literally
the first time the show bothered to illustrate this: we'd heard it
repeatedly from Wesley and company, but by this time just repeating
the line "we're the only things standing between you and real
darkness..." (which my then-roomate mocked mercilessly) was starting
to fail to get the point across.
Shawn Hill
: Out of the ether "Kamil" <ka...@mmcableNOSPAM.com> rose up and issued
: forth:
:>: : Not that I'm trying to present myself as a sort of Everyman. There's almost
:>: : always an unspoken IMO to my posts. But I've always wondered just how many
:>: : people who praise The Body for it's "amazing depth of insight into the
:>shocking
:>: : loss of a love one" actually have had a shocking loss of loved one. :)
:>:
:>: To be succinct: [Shawn raises hand].
:>
:>To each their own, I suppose -- but I thought the insights were very insighty.
:>Kamil
:>
: Yep. The Body felt the same for me as it did when my Grandfather died.
: He and I were very close, and I walked around for over a week
: completely outside myself, battling depression and a need to feel
: something other than depressed. I didn't have the close friends Buffy
Thanks everybody for sharing these. I don't think there's any better
testament to what The Body meant to some people.
Shawn