I Only Have Eyes for You
Don Sample
> "[Marti]'s only got two more episodes this season. (One of them is pretty
> much the best one she's written. The other, for many people, epitomizes
> everything that was wrong about Marti Noxon.) "
>
> BB&B and IOHEFY?
>
> I'm a fan of both, and I don't think either epitomizes the horrors,
> IMO, of S6 and S7.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
'I Only Have Eyes For You' idealizes an abusive relationship into this
Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
First of all we've got a teacher having an affair with her student.
Then when the she breaks it off, the student goes and gets a gun, and
first threatens, and then shoots her, and then himself. And then she
forgives him, and tells him that she always loved him, and they ascend
together into heaven. And all the fans go "Aww, that's sooo sweet!"
<shudder>Yeesh!</shudder>
(And of course BBB has the moment when Cordy discovers that Xander meant
the love spell for her, and *that's* what makes her forgive him. Yeah
right. Even without her knowing the real reason he did it, that
discovery warranted a good swift kick in his balls, not forgiveness. As
an act of love, it's right down there with the mind control orb that
Warren used on Katrina.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
hopelessly devoted
The realistic phrase being "I love him/her. I don't know why. But I
do."
Shuggie
> Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
>
>> "[Marti]'s only got two more episodes this season. (One of them is pretty
>> much the best one she's written. The other, for many people, epitomizes
>> everything that was wrong about Marti Noxon.) "
>>
>> BB&B and IOHEFY?
>>
>> I'm a fan of both, and I don't think either epitomizes the horrors,
>> IMO, of S6 and S7.
>>
>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
> 'I Only Have Eyes For You' idealizes an abusive relationship into this
> Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
>
> First of all we've got a teacher having an affair with her student.
> Then when the she breaks it off, the student goes and gets a gun, and
> first threatens, and then shoots her, and then himself. And then she
> forgives him, and tells him that she always loved him, and they ascend
> together into heaven. And all the fans go "Aww, that's sooo sweet!"
>
> <shudder>Yeesh!</shudder>
I'm not sure it idolizes it. I think it's supposed to be a tragic love
story because it's mirroring Buffy/Angel which is a tragic love story. I
also think that after 50 years of reliving it they've probably suffered
enough.
>
> (And of course BBB has the moment when Cordy discovers that Xander meant
> the love spell for her, and *that's* what makes her forgive him. Yeah
> right. Even without her knowing the real reason he did it, that
> discovery warranted a good swift kick in his balls, not forgiveness. As
> an act of love, it's right down there with the mind control orb that
> Warren used on Katrina.)
>
I don't think so. Xander didn't try to turn Cordy into a slave, he just
wanted her to like him. It was stupid and selfish but I can understand a
hurt Xander doing that, especially in S2 when he's seen less of what
magic can do when it goes wrong.
As for Cordy forgiving him - actually makes a lot of sense. The fact
that Xander wanted to be with her badly enough to 'embrace the black
arts' probably feeds into her narcisistic streak quite well.
--
Shuggie
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
And it never speaks well for a healthy relationship.
Shuggie
> In article <1140292774.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
>
>> I would also have to agree, except, I've see this happen in real life.
>> The realistic phrase being "I love him/her. I don't know why. But I
>> do."
>
> And it never speaks well for a healthy relationship.
>
and since when did the Buffyverse portray healthy relationships anyway?
;)
Don Sample
shu...@gmail.com (Shuggie) wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> > Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
> >
> > (And of course BBB has the moment when Cordy discovers that Xander meant
> > the love spell for her, and *that's* what makes her forgive him. Yeah
> > right. Even without her knowing the real reason he did it, that
> > discovery warranted a good swift kick in his balls, not forgiveness. As
> > an act of love, it's right down there with the mind control orb that
> > Warren used on Katrina.)
> >
>
> I don't think so. Xander didn't try to turn Cordy into a slave, he just
> wanted her to like him. It was stupid and selfish but I can understand a
> hurt Xander doing that, especially in S2 when he's seen less of what
> magic can do when it goes wrong.
He wanted Cordy fawning all over him, so *he* could dump *her*.
Whatever his motive, it was still a psychic rape.
> As for Cordy forgiving him - actually makes a lot of sense. The fact
> that Xander wanted to be with her badly enough to 'embrace the black
> arts' probably feeds into her narcisistic streak quite well.
--
kenm47
now ghosts. Besides it all comes deliciously together in the
Angel/Buffy gender switch - which may be more powerful if one has
succumbed at that point to the idea of the separated true love lovers..
It's Gothic and IMO terrific. I can separate from the adult
teacher/teenager thing. Besides I've never really been able to shake
the double standard thing that a female teenager would be abused and
taken advantage of while the male teenager just got "lucky." A personal
failing, what can I say?
Buffy/Spike later is IMO a whole other animal what with evil demon and
excessively depressed human Slayer. I just do not see the set ups as
comparable. I enjoy IOHEFY. I detest Buffy/Spike for lots and lots of
reasons, which do not separate from what's going on with our other
"friends" at the same time.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
The great romance stories rarely do. Romeo and Juliet anyone? Even
Shakespeare In Love?
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
John Briggs
> What you say is true, but I didn't focus there. These are two humans,
> now ghosts. Besides it all comes deliciously together in the
> Angel/Buffy gender switch - which may be more powerful if one has
> succumbed at that point to the idea of the separated true love
> lovers..
The gender switch is from "Dead Again".
--
John Briggs
kenm47
Excellent point. Another connection I had missed.
In any event, I thought it worked great in IOHEFY.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
> Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
>
>
> Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
Oh, season six Spike and Buffy was a Great Love Story?
No wonder we do not agree about season six...
IOHEFY is the ep whree Buffy realizes what forgivness are. She (and the
writers) forget it again in season six and seven, and I hate that.
IOHEFY is a really _great_ ep.
BB&B are fun, but not great in the same sense.
--
Espen
alphakitten
Don Sample wrote:
> Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
>
>
>>"[Marti]'s only got two more episodes this season. (One of them is pretty
>>much the best one she's written. The other, for many people, epitomizes
>>everything that was wrong about Marti Noxon.) "
>>
>>BB&B and IOHEFY?
>>
>>I'm a fan of both, and I don't think either epitomizes the horrors,
>>IMO, of S6 and S7.
>>
>>Ken (Brooklyn)
>
>
> 'I Only Have Eyes For You' idealizes an abusive relationship into this
> Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
>
How on earth was Spike & Buffy's 'ship idealized by Marti in S6?
~Angel
Espen Schjønberg
> On 18.02.2006 20:29, Don Sample wrote:
>
>> Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
>>
>>
>> 'I Only Have Eyes For You' idealizes an abusive relationship into this
>> Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
>
>
> Oh, season six Spike and Buffy was a Great Love Story?
Hey, I now see you wrote _idealized an abusive relationship_... OK, I
don't know where you turn this then.
So what I wrote is just - off.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
>
>> "[Marti]'s only got two more episodes this season. (One of them is pretty
>> much the best one she's written. The other, for many people, epitomizes
>> everything that was wrong about Marti Noxon.) "
>>
>> BB&B and IOHEFY?
>>
>> I'm a fan of both, and I don't think either epitomizes the horrors,
>> IMO, of S6 and S7.
>>
>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
> 'I Only Have Eyes For You' idealizes an abusive relationship into this
> Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
>
> First of all we've got a teacher having an affair with her student.
> Then when the she breaks it off, the student goes and gets a gun, and
> first threatens, and then shoots her, and then himself. And then she
> forgives him, and tells him that she always loved him, and they ascend
> together into heaven. And all the fans go "Aww, that's sooo sweet!"
I always got a kick out of the fact Marti got the idea for IOHEFY from
the "Halloween" episode of My So Called Life. Now THAT was a show that
died way before its time. Poor Nicky Driscoll. Sigh.....
Carlos Moreno
> First of all we've got a teacher having an affair with her student.
> Then when the she breaks it off, the student goes and gets a gun, and
> first threatens, and then shoots her, and then himself. And then she
> forgives him, and tells him that she always loved him, and they ascend
> together into heaven. And all the fans go "Aww, that's sooo sweet!"
Uhh... HUH?!!!
*All* the fans? So you don't consider *me* a fan?? Because
let me tell you, I didn't go "Awww, that's so sweet" -- I
went more like "awwww, F*****K, that's so retarded!!"
> (And of course BBB has the moment when Cordy discovers that Xander meant
> the love spell for her, and *that's* what makes her forgive him. Yeah
> right. Even without her knowing the real reason he did it, that
> discovery warranted a good swift kick in his balls, not forgiveness. As
> an act of love, it's right down there with the mind control orb that
> Warren used on Katrina.)
There, I have to partially disagree with you -- I mean, being
kids and all, the thing can be taken more lightly than it is;
and as such, Cordelia just sees the seriousness of Xander's
interest fr her (of course, because she did not really see
Xander's true intentions with the spell -- that would have
been a whole different story)
Carlos
--
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
May I give that a gigantic I SECOND THAT?
What in earth leads ANYONE to believe that s6 *idealised Spuffy as a
Greta Love Story*.
Pretty much exactly the opposite, I would say.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
hopelessly devoted
>>Greta Love Story*.
>>Pretty much exactly the opposite, I would say.
Have always agreed.
When the eps in S6 first aired I tried posting to some of the Buffy Fan
sites and found 14 - 16 year old gooshing over how "romantic" it was.
They couldn't understand that I found it "sick and disturbing". My
original summation, "I'd love to see them when the "real" relationship
starts. That will prove to be far more interesting." And it was.
Friends first, always.
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-BBF35...@mercury.nildram.net...
Ditto. Maybe the end of Season 7, but certainly not 6.
OBS
nimue
Wuthering Heights, anyone?
--
nimue
"Evil is not merely banal; it prides itself on sticking to the rules
and looks forward to its pension." Kyle Smith
nimue
Great show, great episode, but NOTHING can touch IOHEFY. That was a
masterpiece, imo, one of the best Buffy eps ever.
nimue
> Diverging from the AOQ 'Surprise' review
>
>> "[Marti]'s only got two more episodes this season. (One of them is
>> pretty much the best one she's written. The other, for many people,
>> epitomizes everything that was wrong about Marti Noxon.) "
>>
>> BB&B and IOHEFY?
>>
>> I'm a fan of both, and I don't think either epitomizes the horrors,
>> IMO, of S6 and S7.
>>
>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
> 'I Only Have Eyes For You' idealizes an abusive relationship into this
> Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
>
> First of all we've got a teacher having an affair with her student.
> Then when the she breaks it off, the student goes and gets a gun, and
> first threatens, and then shoots her, and then himself. And then she
> forgives him, and tells him that she always loved him, and they ascend
> together into heaven. And all the fans go "Aww, that's sooo sweet!"
No, it wasn't sweet. It was disturbing and sad and the conflating of that
relationship with Buffy and Angel's was brilliant. Both relationships were
wrong, and both couples paid. I am sorry you saw it in such simplistic
terms, because it was anything but. I thought SMG did some of her finest
acting in IOHEFY. That ep asked powerful questions about sin and
forgiveness and responsibility and I loved it.
>
> <shudder>Yeesh!</shudder>
>
> (And of course BBB has the moment when Cordy discovers that Xander
> meant the love spell for her, and *that's* what makes her forgive
> him. Yeah right. Even without her knowing the real reason he did
> it, that discovery warranted a good swift kick in his balls, not
> forgiveness. As an act of love, it's right down there with the mind
> control orb that Warren used on Katrina.)
--
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > Great Love Story. (As Marti did in season 6 with Spike and Buffy.)
it wasnt abusive
it was stupid teenage angst that couldnt see past five minutes
as paininful as the moment was the boy wouldve gotten past it
but like other unfortunates decided for the big dramatic play
that went awry
(the gunshot is shown as accidental
the idiot was waving it around and hit the trigger)
as to whether she shouldve have forgiven him a moments stupidity
thats the whole point of the episode
you dont get forgiveness because you deserve it
you get it because you need it
buffy had to get beyond blaming herself for angels plight
and deal with the situation as it was
(somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
vague disclaimer
<mair_fheal-BE3D6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> (somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
Or roughly until Amends (agree with the rest of your point though - that
anyone could interpret this, or S6, as idealising abusive relationships
simply beggars belief).
But then I have seen someone discuss the kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa
as 'hot'.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
That would be me, 90% of the participants in the Buffy fandom on LJ,
TVGuide, Zap2it, E!, USA Today, and various others. So by someone, you
mean a whole lot of people, right?
Matter of fact, TVGal just rated the Tabula Rasa kiss #3 in all time
hottest kisses on TV for a valentines day article. So....
alphakitten
It is. Just because it came from a sad, mutually abusive place doesn't
cancel out the chemistry. Up until Doublemeat Palace, all their non
violent physical interactions were incredibly hot. Much like the
Angel/Darla Boink of Despair in Reprise is incredibly hot.
~Angel
nimue
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>> In article
>> <mair_fheal-BE3D6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> (somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
>>
>>
>> Or roughly until Amends (agree with the rest of your point though -
>> that anyone could interpret this, or S6, as idealising abusive
>> relationships simply beggars belief).
>>
>> But then I have seen someone discuss the kiss at the end of Tabula
>> Rasa as 'hot'.
>
>
>
>
>
> It is. Just because it came from a sad, mutually abusive place doesn't
> cancel out the chemistry. Up until Doublemeat Palace, all their non
> violent physical interactions were incredibly hot.
That kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa was so hot and dreamy and you are
right -- in life as in art, just because chemistry may not come from the
best place doesn't mean that the chemistry isn't there. Oh, that kiss. Oh,
my god. And then there is the one at the end of Once More With Feeling.
Yum.
>Much like the
> Angel/Darla Boink of Despair in Reprise is incredibly hot.
>
>
>
> ~Angel
--
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> alphakitten wrote:
>> vague disclaimer wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <mair_fheal-BE3D6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
>>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>>> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> (somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
>>>
>>> Or roughly until Amends (agree with the rest of your point though -
>>> that anyone could interpret this, or S6, as idealising abusive
>>> relationships simply beggars belief).
>>>
>>> But then I have seen someone discuss the kiss at the end of Tabula
>>> Rasa as 'hot'.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It is. Just because it came from a sad, mutually abusive place doesn't
>> cancel out the chemistry. Up until Doublemeat Palace, all their non
>> violent physical interactions were incredibly hot.
>
> That kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa was so hot and dreamy and you are
> right -- in life as in art, just because chemistry may not come from the
> best place doesn't mean that the chemistry isn't there. Oh, that kiss. Oh,
> my god. And then there is the one at the end of Once More With Feeling.
> Yum.
Still, my favorite Spike/Buffy kiss will always be the 'Intervention'
one. It was just so.... sweet. When Spike realizes it's the real Buffy,
it's his reaction that gets me every time.
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
As I said. Beggars belief.
vague disclaimer
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
And this proves what exactly? We live in a world where Titanic got a
gazillion oscars.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> In article <df2dnQSYatE...@comcast.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> vague disclaimer wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <mair_fheal-BE3D6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
>>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>>> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
>>> Or roughly until Amends (agree with the rest of your point though - that
>>> anyone could interpret this, or S6, as idealising abusive relationships
>>> simply beggars belief).
>>>
>>> But then I have seen someone discuss the kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa
>>> as 'hot'.
>> That would be me, 90% of the participants in the Buffy fandom on LJ,
>> TVGuide, Zap2it, E!, USA Today, and various others. So by someone, you
>> mean a whole lot of people, right?
>>
>> Matter of fact, TVGal just rated the Tabula Rasa kiss #3 in all time
>> hottest kisses on TV for a valentines day article. So....
>
> And this proves what exactly? We live in a world where Titanic got a
> gazillion oscars.
That you are in the minority here? Anyone with a pair of working
eyeballs can see that the scene was 'hot'. The chemistry between those
two characters was rather evident, and the TR kiss only added fuel to an
already growing fire between Buffy and Spike.
Also, in response to your 'beggars belief' comment, how was that scene
unbelievable? I saw it more as inevitable given all that had happened up
to that point.
nimue
I love that, too. It's beautiful.
>>
>>> Much like the
>>> Angel/Darla Boink of Despair in Reprise is incredibly hot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Angel
--
George W Harris
<mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
:vague disclaimer wrote:
:> In article <df2dnQSYatE...@comcast.com>,
:> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
:>
:>> vague disclaimer wrote:
:>>> In article
:>>> <mair_fheal-BE3D6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
:>>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
:>>> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>>>
:>>>> (somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
:>>> Or roughly until Amends (agree with the rest of your point though - that
:>>> anyone could interpret this, or S6, as idealising abusive relationships
:>>> simply beggars belief).
:>>>
:>>> But then I have seen someone discuss the kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa
:>>> as 'hot'.
:>> That would be me, 90% of the participants in the Buffy fandom on LJ,
:>> TVGuide, Zap2it, E!, USA Today, and various others. So by someone, you
:>> mean a whole lot of people, right?
:>>
:>> Matter of fact, TVGal just rated the Tabula Rasa kiss #3 in all time
:>> hottest kisses on TV for a valentines day article. So....
:>
:> And this proves what exactly? We live in a world where Titanic got a
:> gazillion oscars.
:
:That you are in the minority here? Anyone with a pair of working
:eyeballs can see that the scene was 'hot'. The chemistry between those
:two characters was rather evident, and the TR kiss only added fuel to an
:already growing fire between Buffy and Spike.
Wait - aren't you talking about the kiss between
Anya and Giles?
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
vague disclaimer
Funnily enough the nearest I've ever come to being afflicted by the
cancer of shippiness was a passing thought that a Giles-Anya thing might
be quite amusing.
vague disclaimer
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <df2dnQSYatE...@comcast.com>,
> > "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> vague disclaimer wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <mair_fheal-BE3D6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> >>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >>> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> (somthing it took xander another six years to learn)
> >>> Or roughly until Amends (agree with the rest of your point though - that
> >>> anyone could interpret this, or S6, as idealising abusive relationships
> >>> simply beggars belief).
> >>>
> >>> But then I have seen someone discuss the kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa
> >>> as 'hot'.
> >> That would be me, 90% of the participants in the Buffy fandom on LJ,
> >> TVGuide, Zap2it, E!, USA Today, and various others. So by someone, you
> >> mean a whole lot of people, right?
> >>
> >> Matter of fact, TVGal just rated the Tabula Rasa kiss #3 in all time
> >> hottest kisses on TV for a valentines day article. So....
> >
> > And this proves what exactly? We live in a world where Titanic got a
> > gazillion oscars.
>
> That you are in the minority here?
Fortunately the day will never come when I worry about following the
flock.
> Anyone with a pair of working
> eyeballs can see that the scene was 'hot'. The chemistry between those
> two characters was rather evident, and the TR kiss only added fuel to an
> already growing fire between Buffy and Spike.
>
> Also, in response to your 'beggars belief' comment, how was that scene
> unbelievable? I saw it more as inevitable given all that had happened up
> to that point.
I never said the scene was unbelievable. The scene was great.
It was scene redolent with despair, with clinging-on-by-the-fingernails,
with groping for something firm to hold on to when all around was
starting to disintegrate; abandoned by the father figure, best friend in
despair and - oh, yeah: and ripped out of heaven. Oh look.
evil-on-a-leash steps in to take advantage. It cames not from pain, but
from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
What beggars belief is looking at that and seeing 'hot'. As the girl
sang: "This isn't real, but I just want to feel".
But then, I don't look at the world through Spike-tinted glasses.
Rowan Hawthorn
>
>
> I never said the scene was unbelievable. The scene was great.
>
> It was scene redolent with despair, with clinging-on-by-the-fingernails,
> with groping for something firm to hold on to when all around was
> starting to disintegrate; abandoned by the father figure, best friend in
> despair and - oh, yeah: and ripped out of heaven. Oh look.
> evil-on-a-leash steps in to take advantage. It cames not from pain, but
> from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
>
> What beggars belief is looking at that and seeing 'hot'. As the girl
> sang: "This isn't real, but I just want to feel".
>
> But then, I don't look at the world through Spike-tinted glasses.
Yeah, what you said...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
alphakitten
They taking advantage was mutual. He took advantage of her condition
because it was the only way he'd get her, she took advantage of the fact
that he was so crazy about her that he'd let her use him as she wished.
It cames not from pain, but
> from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
Indeed. With Buffy on the road to recovery and Spike getting his soul back.
~Angel
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
Oh for heaven's sake.
> It cames not from pain, but
> > from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
>
>
>
> Indeed. With Buffy on the road to recovery and Spike getting his soul back.
>
That is not where that kiss ended. And you know it.
alphakitten
'Oh for heaven's sake' what? It's what happened. The use and abuse was
mutual, all the way.
>
>
>>It cames not from pain, but
>>
>>>from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
>>
>>
>>
>>Indeed. With Buffy on the road to recovery and Spike getting his soul back.
>>
>
>
> That is not where that kiss ended. And you know it.
No, it ended with him sacrificing himself for her to close the
Hellmouth. The rape attempt was the grisliest stop along the way, but
it's not where it ended.
~Angel
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
If you wish to make a moral equivalence between an inherently evil
creature - exploiting a situation for his own ends - and someone
suffering from about as deep a case of post-traumatic stress as could be
imagined that is your choice.
But you might want to think on what that says about your value system.
> >>It cames not from pain, but
> >>
> >>>from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Indeed. With Buffy on the road to recovery and Spike getting his soul back.
> >>
> >
> >
> > That is not where that kiss ended. And you know it.
> No, it ended with him sacrificing himself for her to close the
> Hellmouth. The rape attempt was the grisliest stop along the way, but
> it's not where it ended.
That kiss (or more precisely the one at the end of OMWF) ended on
Buffy's bathroom floor, as such things tend to when an abuser exploits a
weakened prey.
The immediate end was triggered, of course, by Buffy's recovery which
started when Captain and Mrs Cardboard paid a visit. I realise that
involves giving Riley credit and is, therefore, anathema to the
Spike-Is-Wuvverley school of thought, but Buffy's pain was to do with
Spike. Her recovery came from seeing that there is an alternative.
That Spike, with the benefit of a soul (as likely acquired as a way to
stop the Scoobies staking him on site as anything else) eventually did
the right thing is nothing to do with that and no less to his credit.
alphakitten
Depression and post-traumatic stress, no matter how severe, do not
excuse abuse. Not of any living or unliving thing. Buffy behaved
terribly, as she later admitted. She used Spike to escape her numbness.
Both by fucking him and beating him up. And yes, Spike absolutley
exploited her when she was at her weakest, even to the point of trying
too worsen her condition in order to keep her with him. Mutually abusive
all the way.
>>>>It cames not from pain, but
>>>>
>>>>>from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Indeed. With Buffy on the road to recovery and Spike getting his soul back.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is not where that kiss ended. And you know it.
>>
>
>>No, it ended with him sacrificing himself for her to close the
>>Hellmouth. The rape attempt was the grisliest stop along the way, but
>>it's not where it ended.
>
>
> That kiss (or more precisely the one at the end of OMWF) ended on
> Buffy's bathroom floor, as such things tend to when an abuser exploits a
> weakened prey.
No, it ends in Chosen.
>
> The immediate end was triggered, of course, by Buffy's recovery which
> started when Captain and Mrs Cardboard paid a visit.
She got started on her road to recovery a while before that. It's in
Gone when she reveals she no longer wants to die. That qualifies as a
sign of being in recovery, *surely*?
I realise that
> involves giving Riley credit and is, therefore, anathema to the
> Spike-Is-Wuvverley school of thought, but Buffy's pain was to do with
> Spike. Her recovery came from seeing that there is an alternative.
>
Uh, I seem to recall Buffy's pain pre-dated her fling with Spike. If I
recall, it had something to do with being hauled out of heaven. That's
why she was with him in the first place. She took her pain out on him
until she could handle it on her own.
~Angel
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Yikes. um, no....
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I was merely pointing out that a great deal of people have come to the
completely understandable conclusion that the kissing scene with B/S in
TR was indeed hot. You don't have to follow the flock on anything and I
have a sense that your dislike of a particular character may cloud your
view on the issue. Because if I saw someone I cared about kissing
someone I detested I wouldn't find it
MBangel10 (Melissa)
(sorry. My I accidently hit send prior to finishing my thoughts.)
>>
>>> Anyone with a pair of working eyeballs can see that the scene was
>>> 'hot'. The chemistry between those two characters was rather evident,
>>> and the TR kiss only added fuel to an already growing fire between
>>> Buffy and Spike.
>>>
>>> Also, in response to your 'beggars belief' comment, how was that
>>> scene unbelievable? I saw it more as inevitable given all that had
>>> happened up to that point.
>>
>> I never said the scene was unbelievable. The scene was great.
Well, that is one this we agree on.
>> It was scene redolent with despair, with
>> clinging-on-by-the-fingernails, with groping for something firm to
>> hold on to when all around was starting to disintegrate; abandoned by
>> the father figure, best friend in despair and - oh, yeah: and ripped
>> out of heaven.
Yes. Buffy was depressed.
Oh look. evil-on-a-leash steps in to take advantage. It
>> cames not from pain, but from deep, deep agony and is only ever going
>> to end in one place.
Actually, up to this point he didn't take advantage at all. He showed
up, she huffed and he walked away. Granted the next moment wasn't shown
on screen but I think it's safe to say Buffy went after him.
>>
>> What beggars belief is looking at that and seeing 'hot'. As the girl
>> sang: "This isn't real, but I just want to feel".
Actually, those lyrics are not in the song Goodbye to You.
>>
>> But then, I don't look at the world through Spike-tinted glasses.
Why is that? So, every person who looks at this scene and thought it was
not the most vile thing they ever witnessed must look at the world
through Spike-tinted glasses?
I didn't need glasses at all to see the chemistry that was on the
screen. It was simply there.
vague disclaimer
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> You don't have to follow the flock on anything and I
> have a sense that your dislike of a particular character may cloud your
> view on the issue
And in that you would be totally wrong. I do not, in any way shape or
form dislike the character.
vague disclaimer
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
<snip clutter>
> >>>>> Matter of fact, TVGal just rated the Tabula Rasa kiss #3 in all
> >>>>> time hottest kisses on TV for a valentines day article. So....
> >>>> And this proves what exactly? We live in a world where Titanic got a
> >>>> gazillion oscars.
> >>> That you are in the minority here?
> >>
> >> Fortunately the day will never come when I worry about following the
> >> flock.
> >
> > I was merely pointing out that a great deal of people have come to the
> > completely understandable conclusion that the kissing scene with B/S in
> > TR was indeed hot. You don't have to follow the flock on anything and I
> > have a sense that your dislike of a particular character may cloud your
> > view on the issue. Because if I saw someone I cared about kissing
> > someone I detested I wouldn't find it the least bit interesting.
>
> (sorry. My I accidently hit send prior to finishing my thoughts.)
(and I didn't spot this)
> >>
> >>> Anyone with a pair of working eyeballs can see that the scene was
> >>> 'hot'. The chemistry between those two characters was rather evident,
> >>> and the TR kiss only added fuel to an already growing fire between
> >>> Buffy and Spike.
> >>>
> >>> Also, in response to your 'beggars belief' comment, how was that
> >>> scene unbelievable? I saw it more as inevitable given all that had
> >>> happened up to that point.
> >>
> >> I never said the scene was unbelievable. The scene was great.
>
> Well, that is one this we agree on.
> >> It was scene redolent with despair, with
> >> clinging-on-by-the-fingernails, with groping for something firm to
> >> hold on to when all around was starting to disintegrate; abandoned by
> >> the father figure, best friend in despair and - oh, yeah: and ripped
> >> out of heaven.
>
> Yes. Buffy was depressed.
No. She was deeply - deeper than we could imagine, if you give it a
moment's thought - traumatised. The kind of trauma that will be giving
her flashbacks until she is 80.
> Oh look. evil-on-a-leash steps in to take advantage. It
> >> cames not from pain, but from deep, deep agony and is only ever going
> >> to end in one place.
>
> Actually, up to this point he didn't take advantage at all. He showed
> up, she huffed and he walked away. Granted the next moment wasn't shown
> on screen but I think it's safe to say Buffy went after him.
> >>
> >> What beggars belief is looking at that and seeing 'hot'. As the girl
> >> sang: "This isn't real, but I just want to feel".
>
> Actually, those lyrics are not in the song Goodbye to You.
No, they are in the song Buffy sang. You know, the girl.
> >> But then, I don't look at the world through Spike-tinted glasses.
>
> Why is that? So, every person who looks at this scene and thought it was
> not the most vile thing they ever witnessed must look at the world
> through Spike-tinted glasses?
>
> I didn't need glasses at all to see the chemistry that was on the
> screen. It was simply there.
The chemistry isn't in dispute. It is what that chemistry was producing
that is. What you need is to take the filter off.
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
<snip clutter>
What is it with your newsreader that it adds extra whitespace?
> >>>>>I never said the scene was unbelievable. The scene was great.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It was scene redolent with despair, with clinging-on-by-the-fingernails,
> >>>>>with groping for something firm to hold on to when all around was
> >>>>>starting to disintegrate; abandoned by the father figure, best friend in
> >>>>>despair and - oh, yeah: and ripped out of heaven. Oh look.
> >>>>>evil-on-a-leash steps in to take advantage.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>They taking advantage was mutual. He took advantage of her condition
> >>>>because it was the only way he'd get her, she took advantage of the fact
> >>>>that he was so crazy about her that he'd let her use him as she wished.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Oh for heaven's sake.
> >>
> >>'Oh for heaven's sake' what? It's what happened. The use and abuse was
> >>mutual, all the way.
> >
> >
> > If you wish to make a moral equivalence between an inherently evil
> > creature - exploiting a situation for his own ends - and someone
> > suffering from about as deep a case of post-traumatic stress as could be
> > imagined that is your choice.
> Depression and post-traumatic stress, no matter how severe, do not
> excuse abuse. Not of any living or unliving thing. Buffy behaved
> terribly, as she later admitted. She used Spike to escape her numbness.
> Both by fucking him and beating him up. And yes, Spike absolutley
> exploited her when she was at her weakest, even to the point of trying
> too worsen her condition in order to keep her with him. Mutually abusive
> all the way.
So she just needed to pull herself together then?
> >>>>It cames not from pain, but
> >>>>
> >>>>>from deep, deep agony and is only ever going to end in one place.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Indeed. With Buffy on the road to recovery and Spike getting his soul
> >>>>back.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>That is not where that kiss ended. And you know it.
> >>
> >
> >>No, it ended with him sacrificing himself for her to close the
> >>Hellmouth. The rape attempt was the grisliest stop along the way, but
> >>it's not where it ended.
> >
> >
> > That kiss (or more precisely the one at the end of OMWF) ended on
> > Buffy's bathroom floor, as such things tend to when an abuser exploits a
> > weakened prey.
>
>
>
> No, it ends in Chosen.
It really didn't. That is where Buffy's Chosen One journey, and Spike
and Willow's redemption journeys ended. The Spuffy fling was over as
soon as he tried to rape her.
> > The immediate end was triggered, of course, by Buffy's recovery which
> > started when Captain and Mrs Cardboard paid a visit.
> She got started on her road to recovery a while before that. It's in
> Gone when she reveals she no longer wants to die. That qualifies as a
> sign of being in recovery, *surely*?
Remind me: which episode ended with her stepping out into the light?
> I realise that
> > involves giving Riley credit and is, therefore, anathema to the
> > Spike-Is-Wuvverley school of thought, but Buffy's pain was to do with
> > Spike. Her recovery came from seeing that there is an alternative.
> Uh, I seem to recall Buffy's pain pre-dated her fling with Spike. If I
> recall, it had something to do with being hauled out of heaven.
Bye the time of AYW Spike had spent months becoming the problem (and
revelling in it).
> That's
> why she was with him in the first place.
She was with him because she wanted to *feel* something. Women's
refugees all over the civilised world are full of those who finally got
out of that mentality.
> She took her pain out on him
> until she could handle it on her own.
So she was asking for it then, wearing that sexy depression so
provocatively?
KenM47
<SNIP>
And others found it as well as other B/S interactions repulsive.
Ken (Brooklyn)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> In article <IvOdnX3iBdQJ-Gfe...@comcast.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <snip clutter>
>>>>>>> Matter of fact, TVGal just rated the Tabula Rasa kiss #3 in all
>>>>>>> time hottest kisses on TV for a valentines day article. So....
>>>>>> And this proves what exactly? We live in a world where Titanic got a
>>>>>> gazillion oscars.
>>>>> That you are in the minority here?
>>>> Fortunately the day will never come when I worry about following the
>>>> flock.
>>> I was merely pointing out that a great deal of people have come to the
>>> completely understandable conclusion that the kissing scene with B/S in
>>> TR was indeed hot. You don't have to follow the flock on anything and I
>>> have a sense that your dislike of a particular character may cloud your
>>> view on the issue. Because if I saw someone I cared about kissing
>>> someone I detested I wouldn't find it the least bit interesting.
>> (sorry. My I accidently hit send prior to finishing my thoughts.)
> (and I didn't spot this)
Sorry. Trying to come up with a coherent thought when a plumber is
standing in your bathroom yelling something about 'freezing pipes' and
'new insulation' is difficult. I should have waited until he left to
read through my post again. Stupid apartment. :)
>>>>> Anyone with a pair of working eyeballs can see that the scene was
>>>>> 'hot'. The chemistry between those two characters was rather evident,
>>>>> and the TR kiss only added fuel to an already growing fire between
>>>>> Buffy and Spike.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, in response to your 'beggars belief' comment, how was that
>>>>> scene unbelievable? I saw it more as inevitable given all that had
>>>>> happened up to that point.
>>>> I never said the scene was unbelievable. The scene was great.
>> Well, that is one this we agree on.
>>>> It was scene redolent with despair, with
>>>> clinging-on-by-the-fingernails, with groping for something firm to
>>>> hold on to when all around was starting to disintegrate; abandoned by
>>>> the father figure, best friend in despair and - oh, yeah: and ripped
>>>> out of heaven.
>> Yes. Buffy was depressed.
>
> No. She was deeply - deeper than we could imagine, if you give it a
> moment's thought - traumatised. The kind of trauma that will be giving
> her flashbacks until she is 80.
It was obvious she was depressed. Yes. Horribly depressed. Heck, she'd
just been mind raped by her best friend. Giles was leaving town when she
needed him the most. She was still reeling about the fact that she had
to deal with it all in the first place - because said best friend
brought her crashing back into the world that she'd escaped. Also adding
the fact that she had to crawl out of her own grave and leave heaven
behind could have added to it a bit as well. Yep, I got it. Do you blame
her for being a bit ticked at them all? Could you blame her for wanting
a bit of comfort from someone?
>
>> Oh look. evil-on-a-leash steps in to take advantage. It
>>>> cames not from pain, but from deep, deep agony and is only ever going
>>>> to end in one place.
>> Actually, up to this point he didn't take advantage at all. He showed
>> up, she huffed and he walked away. Granted the next moment wasn't shown
>> on screen but I think it's safe to say Buffy went after him.
>>>> What beggars belief is looking at that and seeing 'hot'. As the girl
>>>> sang: "This isn't real, but I just want to feel".
>> Actually, those lyrics are not in the song Goodbye to You.
>
> No, they are in the song Buffy sang. You know, the girl.
In OMWF. Yes, Buffy sang those words. She did want to feel. She didn't
love Spike but she needed something other than what she was getting. She
turned to him for it. I still don't see how at this point he was taking
advantage of her.
>
>>>> But then, I don't look at the world through Spike-tinted glasses.
>> Why is that? So, every person who looks at this scene and thought it was
>> not the most vile thing they ever witnessed must look at the world
>> through Spike-tinted glasses?
>>
>> I didn't need glasses at all to see the chemistry that was on the
>> screen. It was simply there.
>
> The chemistry isn't in dispute. It is what that chemistry was producing
> that is. What you need is to take the filter off.
It produced to very lost and confused individuals. One a Slayer, the
other a Vampire. Who both made many, many mistakes along the path they
chose. That path lead to some pretty dark places. Two significant ones
were the pummeling of Spike in the alley and the AR. Two situations that
were very paralleled and led both characters onto a better path.
Buffy realized that what she did was wrong, and you can see it in her
face when she stopped hitting him.
Spike realized that what he did was wrong, and you can see it in his
face when she kicked him off her.
I saw two characters that sunk as low as they could (with each other)
and I saw them get back up and do something to rise above it.
So nope, no filter here.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Some were pretty repulsed when Buffy kissed Angel after he'd killed
Jenny too.
One Bit Shy
news:43FA540F...@netscape.net...
I'd say the recovery began with the first kiss. In no way do I mean that to
suggest that Spike wasn't horribly damaging. But the metaphor for Buffy
that season was climbing out of the grave - a process that entails pulling
dirt down upon you and paradoxically burying yourself more to escape. In
reaching for Spike, Buffy was reaching for life. It pulled down all sorts
of crap upon her, but it also started her climb out. Likewise, over the
course of their relationship she received many deep wounds, yet in the end
it still helped return her to the world.
OBS
KenM47
Angel did not kill Jenny. Angelus killed Jenny.
Ken (Brooklyn)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
So, at the end of Grave, you forgave Spike for everything instantly too?
MBangel10 (Melissa)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I agree. :)
KenM47
<SNIP FOR LENGTH>
>>>>> I was merely pointing out that a great deal of people have come to the
>>>>> completely understandable conclusion that the kissing scene with B/S in
>>>>> TR was indeed hot.
>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>
>>>> And others found it as well as other B/S interactions repulsive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>>> Some were pretty repulsed when Buffy kissed Angel after he'd killed
>>> Jenny too.
>>
>> Angel did not kill Jenny. Angelus killed Jenny.
>>
>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
>So, at the end of Grave, you forgave Spike for everything instantly too?
No. I don't blame the human soul for the acts of the vampire, but the
whole Spike thing was muddied up considerably in a bunch of ways that
led to my not caring.
Among other things, we saw distinct personalities when it came to
Angel/Angelus. There were distinct personalities between William and
Spike the vampire. There was no real personality shift from Spike the
vampire to re-ensouled Spike. In fact, with the exception of
"Eternity" we never saw Angel kill to feed or try to (and Eternity was
another abomination). Even ensouled Spike killed and fed, under the
control of The First or whatever.
Look. I have no use for S6 or S7, pretty much all of it, or all of
Angel beginning with Pylea. I accept that others see things there I
have not seen and cannot see. Sobeit.
Ken (Brooklyn)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I didn't care for most of the Pylea episodes either. Ats just never
struck a chord with me the way Buffy did. I could care less about the
majority of characters on that show. I watched the early seasons for the
crossovers, and the the last half of 4 and all of 5 for Faith and then
Spike. It just didn't have the magic that Buffy did.
Sure, I liked the characters well enough but when bad things happened to
them I was pretty much not caring very much about it.
But I have to ask, if you hate S6 so much why do you bother to comment
on it?
Now my response: I look at Spike and Angel's stories as two different
paths to the same conclusion. Each one got a soul, whether they wanted
one or not. Each one had to deal with it in their own way. Angel had 100
years of figuring out how to live with it. Spike didn't. I think it had
a lot to do with having one forced upon you and actually running out to
get one. Which one is better? It's up to personal opinion and what we
got out of the story.
I forgave Angel for what Angelus did, and I forgave Spike for what
pre-souled Spike did. I see them both as completely different vampire
personalities and although I think Spike was more human than Angelus
ever could be, his moral compass was equivalent to one you would find at
the bottom of a cereal box. The fact that he realized it however, is
what impressed me so much. I could never see Angelus doing what Spike
did, therein lies the reason why I lean more toward the character of
Spike than to Angel.
(So, yeah.. I'm going to stick up for him on occasion.)
nimue
What both of you said.
--
nimue
"Evil is not merely banal; it prides itself on sticking to the rules
and looks forward to its pension." Kyle Smith
"Violence always wants to erupt and only creativity can control it."
Sister Wendy
nimue
Brilliantly put. I can't snip a word and ita.
kenm47
on it? "
Well. that looks like a conversation ender!
Seems to me disliking and being critical of the way ME handled S6 and
S7 does not disqualify one from taking part in the general
conversation.
If anything will disqualify me, it will be my fading memories of those
seasons as I do not rewatch them.
Actually my dissatisfaction with Buffy goes back to The Body, and the
melodrama of that (as I've said: IMO great TV, terrible Buffy) ,
Forever and Spiral. But if the show had vanished with The Gift I could
have made allowances. The depresso-fest of S6 and S7 remain
unforgiveable to me (and I know some others). If there was to be a S6
then The Key should have been sacrificed, or, more accurately,
sacrificed itself so that Bufy's suicide was unnecessary. There will
never be a valid justification for the Normal Again retcon either.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mark Jones
> Now my response: I look at Spike and Angel's stories as two different
> paths to the same conclusion. Each one got a soul, whether they wanted one
> or not. Each one had to deal with it in their own way. Angel had 100 years
> of figuring out how to live with it. Spike didn't. I think it had a lot to
> do with having one forced upon you and actually running out to get one.
That isn't what happened. Spike got screwed by the wish-granting demon.
(Yes, many people think otherwise. They're wrong.)
vague disclaimer
Mark Jones <sin...@pacifier.com> wrote:
No they are not. He went looking for his soul, as indicated by the
clumsiest misdirection ever.
KenM47
Watcher
news:1140309317.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>What in earth leads ANYONE to believe that s6 *idealised Spuffy as a
> >>Greta Love Story*.
>
>
> >>Pretty much exactly the opposite, I would say.
>
> Have always agreed.
>
> When the eps in S6 first aired I tried posting to some of the Buffy Fan
> sites and found 14 - 16 year old gooshing over how "romantic" it was.
> They couldn't understand that I found it "sick and disturbing". My
> original summation, "I'd love to see them when the "real" relationship
> starts. That will prove to be far more interesting." And it was.
>
> Friends first, always.
>
The undead poet had clearly stated unequivocally in "Lover's Walk"
(http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1750) with the following opposing
extreme POV (not mine) concerning the Angel-Buffy relationship:
"You're *not* friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till
it kills you both.
You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other till it makes
you quiver, but
you'll never be friends. (points at his temple) Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood...
(clasps his chest) blood screaming inside you to work its will. *I* may
be love's
bitch, but at least *I'm* man enough to admit it."
And our highly intuitive blonde heroine whose usual MO was to act
impulsively rather than with clear-headed reasoning had said this in "New
Moon Rising" (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=589):
"Yeah, well love isn't logical, Riley. It's not like you can be Mister
Joe
Sensible about it all the time."
Different people use the word "love" to mean different things in different
contexts. Spike's obsessive feelings for Buffy may not fit in some
gloriously idealized definition of "love", but whatever they were, Spike had
proved his "loyalty" to Buffy (or "obsessiveness" if you will) by protecting
Dawn repeatedly. He got pummeled by Glory and was almost destroyed by Glory
for not revealing the Key, all without complaints. And Buffy was grateful to
Spike for that (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1997):
"...What you did, for me & Dawn... that was real. I won't forget it."
Am I the only one who found the theory that "vamps are pure evil with no
conscience" as *simplistic* and "dull as a table-lamp"? To me, "Spuffy"
suggests that Spike's obsessive feelings for Buffy might have the same
source as William's obssessive feelings for Cecily--possibly a hormonal
source governed by the laws of biochemistry (for William) and by the laws of
mystico-chemistry (for Spike).
My 2cents worth. YMMV.
Watcher
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
either that or josh lied when he said spike went looking for his soul
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
shuggie
> In article <l64o-1rj5-44AFE...@mercury.nildram.net>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <gemini.iv0xbw00m...@pacifier.com>,
> > Mark Jones <sin...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Now my response: I look at Spike and Angel's stories as two different
> > > > paths to the same conclusion. Each one got a soul, whether they wanted one
> > > > or not. Each one had to deal with it in their own way. Angel had 100 years
> > > > of figuring out how to live with it. Spike didn't. I think it had a lot to
> > > > do with having one forced upon you and actually running out to get one.
> > >
> > > That isn't what happened. Spike got screwed by the wish-granting demon.
> > >
> > > (Yes, many people think otherwise. They're wrong.)
> >
> > No they are not. He went looking for his soul, as indicated by the
> > clumsiest misdirection ever.
>
> either that or josh lied when he said spike went looking for his soul
>
What "josh" had to say on the subject is neither here nor there. Joss
on the other hand...
Ok seriously. The problem with saying "Joss lied" is that those "lies"
are now enshrined in canon. Spike actually tells us in S7 that he went
looking for a soul. I can only see two possibilites from this. Either
a) Spike went looking to get de-chipped, the demon fooled him and
re-ensouled him instead, and Spike either lied or became confused about
his original intentions. The question is, what purpose does it serve to
have him either lie or be confused in this way when it's never
subsequently used in the story?
OR
b) ME tried too to make it look like Spike wanted to get de-chipped,
but actually he went to get re-ensouled. i.e. "clumsy misdirection"
like the man said. (the fact that he later explicitly said that that's
what he wanted is ME clumsily re-dressing the balance of clumsy
misdirection. There was a lot of clumsy balance re-dressing in S6&S7
IMO)
On the basis of Occam's razor I'll go for b).
alphakitten
> In article <43FA540F...@netscape.net>,
> alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> <snip clutter>
>
> What is it with your newsreader that it adds extra whitespace?
>
>
It does?
>>Depression and post-traumatic stress, no matter how severe, do not
>>excuse abuse. Not of any living or unliving thing. Buffy behaved
>>terribly, as she later admitted. She used Spike to escape her numbness.
>>Both by fucking him and beating him up. And yes, Spike absolutley
>>exploited her when she was at her weakest, even to the point of trying
>>too worsen her condition in order to keep her with him. Mutually abusive
>>all the way.
>
>
> So she just needed to pull herself together then?
No, she needed professional help which was unfortunatley unfeasible. She
needed her friends to buckle down and help her instead of mind raping
her or figuring if they ignored it long enough it would go away. She
needed her father figure to do anything but abandon her.
Sadly, this didn't happen. Which does not make it okay to be so utterly
abusive towards anyone, even Spike.
>>>
>>>That kiss (or more precisely the one at the end of OMWF) ended on
>>>Buffy's bathroom floor, as such things tend to when an abuser exploits a
>>>weakened prey.
>>
>>
>>
>>No, it ends in Chosen.
>
>
> It really didn't. That is where Buffy's Chosen One journey, and Spike
> and Willow's redemption journeys ended. The Spuffy fling was over as
> soon as he tried to rape her.
>
>
And as a direct result of that, he went for his soul. Which wouldn't
have happened if the fling hadn't. The Spuffy arc ends with the closing
of the Hellmouth.
>>>The immediate end was triggered, of course, by Buffy's recovery which
>>>started when Captain and Mrs Cardboard paid a visit.
>>
>
>>She got started on her road to recovery a while before that. It's in
>>Gone when she reveals she no longer wants to die. That qualifies as a
>>sign of being in recovery, *surely*?
>
>
> Remind me: which episode ended with her stepping out into the light?
>
>
As You Were. Which episode ends with her revealing she's no longer
suicidal? Gone. Recovery is a process. It had begun before AYW, rather
obviously.
>>I realise that
>>
>>>involves giving Riley credit and is, therefore, anathema to the
>>>Spike-Is-Wuvverley school of thought, but Buffy's pain was to do with
>>>Spike. Her recovery came from seeing that there is an alternative.
>>
>
>>Uh, I seem to recall Buffy's pain pre-dated her fling with Spike. If I
>>recall, it had something to do with being hauled out of heaven.
>
>
> Bye the time of AYW Spike had spent months becoming the problem (and
> revelling in it).
>
While Spike had become *a* problem, he was not *the* problem, he was her
method of distracting herself from it. ("The only time I feel anything
is when I'm with him") The problem was the resurrection and the wedge it
had driven between her and her friends.
>
>> That's
>>why she was with him in the first place.
>
>
> She was with him because she wanted to *feel* something. Women's
> refugees all over the civilised world are full of those who finally got
> out of that mentality.
>
She was with him because she wanted to feel something. She was with him
because he was someone she could assualt with impunity and because she
thought he was someone she could use sexually and emotionally without
remorse. To her credit, the remorse came.
>
>>She took her pain out on him
>>until she could handle it on her own.
>
>
> So she was asking for it then, wearing that sexy depression so
> provocatively?
WtF? Buffy is the one who instigates the first kiss in OMw/F and the sex
in Smashed. Spike didn't see a wounded bird and move in for the kill.
The wounded bird moved in on him. Now a non inherently evil thing would
have realized that this was a product of her condition and would not
taken advantage of the situation, no argument there. Butif kissing
someone and jumping them isn't asking for it*, I really don't know what
is.
It* being the fling. She didn't ask for or deserve the attempted rape.
~Angel
alphakitten
KenM47 wrote:
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <SNIP FOR LENGTH>
>
>>>>>>I was merely pointing out that a great deal of people have come to the
>>>>>>completely understandable conclusion that the kissing scene with B/S in
>>>>>>TR was indeed hot.
>>>>>
>>>>><SNIP>
>>>>>
>>>>>And others found it as well as other B/S interactions repulsive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken (Brooklyn)
>>>>
>>>>Some were pretty repulsed when Buffy kissed Angel after he'd killed
>>>>Jenny too.
>>>
>>>Angel did not kill Jenny. Angelus killed Jenny.
>>>
>>>Ken (Brooklyn)
>>
>>So, at the end of Grave, you forgave Spike for everything instantly too?
>
>
> No. I don't blame the human soul for the acts of the vampire, but the
> whole Spike thing was muddied up considerably in a bunch of ways that
> led to my not caring.
>
> Among other things, we saw distinct personalities when it came to
> Angel/Angelus. There were distinct personalities between William and
> Spike the vampire. There was no real personality shift from Spike the
> vampire to re-ensouled Spike. In fact, with the exception of
> "Eternity" we never saw Angel kill to feed or try to (and Eternity was
> another abomination). Even ensouled Spike killed and fed, under the
> control of The First or whatever.
Er, exactly. *Under the control of the First*. He was in no way
responsible for that.
~Angel
alphakitten
No, we're not. It was confirmed both on screen and off. Just because I
didn't like the Fluke, doesn't mean I can pretend it never happened.
Well I suppose I could, but it I went around *saying* it never happened,
then I'd be nuts.
~Angel
alphakitten
Watcher wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who found the theory that "vamps are pure evil with no
> conscience" as *simplistic* and "dull as a table-lamp"?
No. I have no problem with them being fundamentally evil, but the notion
that they are incapable of human emotions and the occaisonal shade of
grey is, as you put it, simplistic and dull as a table-lamp.
Which is why I loved Spike so much. An inherently evil mass murderer who
was capable of real love (Dru, Buffy) and affection (Joyce, Dawn).
~Angel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> re-ensouled him instead, and Spike either lied or became confused about
> his original intentions. The question is, what purpose does it serve to
> have him either lie or be confused in this way when it's never
> subsequently used in the story?
spike said that angel shouldve warned him
that getting his spark back would hurt so much
if spike hadnt meant to get his soul back
he wouldntve expected warnings about that
alphakitten
I can see why people would discount Spike's word, however, the soul
quest is confirmed by third parties on both shows - the FE on BtVS and
Pavaynne on AtS. Case closed.
>
> OR
>
> b) ME tried too to make it look like Spike wanted to get de-chipped,
> but actually he went to get re-ensouled. i.e. "clumsy misdirection"
> like the man said. (the fact that he later explicitly said that that's
> what he wanted is ME clumsily re-dressing the balance of clumsy
> misdirection. There was a lot of clumsy balance re-dressing in S6&S7
> IMO)
>
> On the basis of Occam's razor I'll go for b).
>
Same.
~Angel
kenm47
no
conscience" as *simplistic* and "dull as a table-lamp"? "
Certainly not. Then again many, at least me, really had no problem with
that, and found the suggestions that evil evil things could do "good"
for altruistic or empathic (with a non-vampire) reasons was the
corruption of the canon. If that was just me, sobeit too.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
>
>
>
> I can see why people would discount Spike's word, however, the soul
> quest is confirmed by third parties on both shows - the FE on BtVS and
> Pavaynne on AtS. Case closed.
This is not conclusive. They may all lie. Spike may lie to himself.
He went to the demon with a request: make me man enough for her to love
me. He was cheated, but then he lies to himself. And everybody goes with
the lie.
it works.
Even if he _did_ ask for a soul, he did not necesarrily know really what
a soul is. And then its the same thing: if you don't know what you ask
for is, and then got it, you havent actually gotten what you asked for.
Complicated? i think not.
--
Espen
kenm47
Or, since I don't think it can be eliminated:
c) Spike lied (why was he suddenly credible?) as it was still in his
interests to lie to try to get back in Buffy's pants as well as to
continue existing, and may have even convinced himself of his own lie.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
Ditto. Actually, I had just posted something similar before reading
your post.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
the whole point about the soul was he couldnt feel true love without it
by the end of the last season
hes transcended the need for a physical relation
kenm47
it "
I never saw that as THE message.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "the whole point about the soul was he couldnt feel true love without
> it "
>
> I never saw that as THE message.
song of songs which is solomons
alphakitten
Again, third parties confirmed it. Spike's word is neither here nor there.
~Angel
alphakitten
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> On 21.02.2006 14:06, alphakitten wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>>
>> I can see why people would discount Spike's word, however, the soul
>> quest is confirmed by third parties on both shows - the FE on BtVS and
>> Pavaynne on AtS. Case closed.
>
>
> This is not conclusive. They may all lie. Spike may lie to himself.
>
> He went to the demon with a request: make me man enough for her to love
> me. He was cheated, but then he lies to himself. And everybody goes with
> the lie.
>
> it works.
Unless you can come up with an even vaguely plausible reason as to why
the FE and Pavaynne would lie *too* Spike, *about* Spike, it does not in
fact work one iota. Especially if you recall that the FE was all about
tormenting Spike, not providing approbation. If Spike lied about the
soul quest then the most tormenty thing the FE could do is remind him of
and rub his nose in the lie.
~Angel
alphakitten
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <43FB0F52...@netscape.net>,
> alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Watcher wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Am I the only one who found the theory that "vamps are pure evil with no
>>>conscience" as *simplistic* and "dull as a table-lamp"?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>No. I have no problem with them being fundamentally evil, but the notion
>>that they are incapable of human emotions and the occaisonal shade of
>>grey is, as you put it, simplistic and dull as a table-lamp.
>>
>>Which is why I loved Spike so much. An inherently evil mass murderer who
>>was capable of real love (Dru, Buffy) and affection (Joyce, Dawn).
>
>
> the whole point about the soul was he couldnt feel true love without it
>
Says who?
~Angel
kenm47
there."
On screen? Who?
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
confirmation I would like to try to find the transcript on line for
context. I saw a reference to FE and Pavaynne somewhere. Neither
particularly credible, but even so in what context? Repeating Spike's
own after story back to him?
(Assuming we don't just have the writers looking to reinforce whatever
in S7 Buffy and S5 Angel)
Ken (Brooklyn)
alphakitten
The FE in Lessons ("you thought you'd get your soul back and everything
would be Jim Dandy?"), Pavaynne in Hell Bound ("won himself a soul,
thinks himself special").
Both supernatural entities that would have not needed to rely on Spike's
word too know what happened. Both supernatural entities that were into
tormenting him and therefore, not likely to go along with a lie for his
benefit.
~Angel
alphakitten
kenm47 wrote:
> And "when" please. If you have a recollection of an on screen
> confirmation I would like to try to find the transcript on line for
> context. I saw a reference to FE and Pavaynne somewhere. Neither
> particularly credible, but even so in what context? Repeating Spike's
> own after story back to him?
>
The FE in Mayor guise, tormenting him at the end of Lessons -
"So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim
Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold
mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man,
and I respect that, but..."
Pavayne, tormenting him in Hell Bound -
Pavayne: "William the Bloody. Scourge and destroyer. But scratch the
surface..."
Ghost Woman: "Little nancy, still crying for his mother."
Pavayne (O.S.): "Know all your hiddens, dirty red things you've done.
Then fell in love. Won himself a soul. No more dirty things. Thinks
himself special."
~Angel
kenm47
Thank you. Can't say it "sells" it for me. YMMV
Fits right in with: And Buffy had been institutionalized in a "clinic"
before she came to Sunnydale. Late season retcons. See also "The
Guardian" and the scythe.
Ken (Brooklyn)
alphakitten
Even if it's a retcon (and I don't agree it is), then it's still
technically canon.
~Angel
shuggie
Naturally by invoking Occam's razor I am inherently conceding that it's
not "conclusive". Nevertheless what I'm saying is that it seems to be
an unnecessarily complex interpretation of events. i.e. the simpler
explanation - Spike did intend to get re-ensouled - is more plausible.
Another principle I apply is a sort of inverse of Chekov's Gun - that
if an explanation of events implies something is introduced but that
something is never subsequently used, then that explanation is suspect
and one which does not imply the introduction of this new element is
more plausible. So introducing the idea that Spike lied but never using
the fact that he lied doesn't seem likely to me - it's much simpler,
more plausible, that he didn't lie.
In fact, I'm always suspicious of any interpretation that's based on
"character X could be lying". Generally in fiction, when characters
lie, they do so for a reason and the audience finds out what that
reason is. A lie that is never subsequently referred to or used as a
story element is, in fiction, probably not a lie at all, merely an
inconvenient fact that gets in the way of a good theory.
Espen Schjønberg
Come on! Vaguely plausible? This is so little, you must see you already
have a vaguely plausible reason to think you _may_ be wrong, jsut like I
see I have a vaguely plausible reason I am wrong!
Anyhow: more explanations. With this lie, Spike has continuity, and he
is responsible for his "own" actions as a demon. Without this lie, he
would realize the demon and William are two entitys, and he has no
reason to feel guilt for what Spike did as a demon.
In other words: the lie hurts the reensouled Spike, because he is -with
it- responsible for the demons actions.
So, FE believes it will hurt him more over time to go along with the lie.
Pavaynne? Does he has the Answers to everything anyway? Well, even if he
has (i didn't know that), he may of course also lie, of the same resons
as the FE: it hurts spike more if he believes he is the same as the
demon, just with the soul. Having the demon wanting the soul, narrows
down the difference between them in Spikes mind.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
kenm47
I get what you are syaing. And "technically canon" I would have to
agree with. Which is why in my dimension Buffy S6 and S7 and Angel S5
are no more than fan fic. :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
it's
not "conclusive". Nevertheless what I'm saying is that it seems to be
an unnecessarily complex interpretation of events. i.e. the simpler
explanation - Spike did intend to get re-ensouled - is more plausible."
I can't agree that's a "simpler" explanation with all that went before.
To me the simpler explanation is Spike AGAIN wants to get the chip out
so he can do mayhem generally, not just be able to smack Buffy around.
Alternatively, if I had to accept he went to get re-ensouled, then it
would have been for all the wrong reasons as an evil evil thing cannot
act for the right reasons even with a restraining chip.
Ken (Brooklyn)
alphakitten
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
>
>
> Come on! Vaguely plausible? This is so little, you must see you already
> have a vaguely plausible reason to think you _may_ be wrong, jsut like I
> see I have a vaguely plausible reason I am wrong!
No, I don't. Firstly, I never believed for a second in Grave that he'd
gone to get his chip out. Partly because as others have said, that
particular misdirection was so terrifically clumsy. Partly because it's
just too silly. All he needed to remove the chip was a good brain
surgeon and a minion to terrorize him or her into submission. He did not
need to traipse all the way to Africa and suffer through a bunch of
trials. Finally, I don't discount the word of the writers. It was
confirmed off screen, it was confirmed on screen. I don't have any doubt
at all.
> Anyhow: more explanations. With this lie, Spike has continuity, and he
> is responsible for his "own" actions as a demon. Without this lie, he
> would realize the demon and William are two entitys, and he has no
> reason to feel guilt for what Spike did as a demon.
Huh? If anything, the fact that he views his soul as a prize rather than
a punishment is likely to lessen his guilt (which I believe it did), not
heighten it.
>
> In other words: the lie hurts the reensouled Spike, because he is -with
> it- responsible for the demons actions.
>
How is soul Spike any more or less responsible for the actions of
soulless Spike if he won his soul or not?
> So, FE believes it will hurt him more over time to go along with the lie.
>
What would have hurt him if he was lying, was to be reminded he was
lying and that Buffy could be told the truth. Going along with the lie
does not hurt Spike at all.
> Pavaynne? Does he has the Answers to everything anyway? Well, even if he
> has (i didn't know that), he may of course also lie, of the same resons
> as the FE: it hurts spike more if he believes he is the same as the
> demon, just with the soul. Having the demon wanting the soul, narrows
> down the difference between them in Spikes mind.
>
Neither suggested Spike was the same with the soul, that wasn't their
point.
~Angel
kenm47
gone to get his chip out. Partly because as others have said, that
particular misdirection was so terrifically clumsy. Partly because it's
just too silly. All he needed to remove the chip was a good brain
surgeon and a minion to terrorize him or her into submission. He did
not
need to traipse all the way to Africa and suffer through a bunch of
trials."
Been there. Tried that. "Out Of My Mind" Did not work.
Ken (Brooklyn)
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > So she was asking for it then, wearing that sexy depression so
> > provocatively?
>
>
>
> WtF? Buffy is the one who instigates the first kiss in OMw/F and the sex
> in Smashed. Spike didn't see a wounded bird and move in for the kill.
> The wounded bird moved in on him. Now a non inherently evil thing would
> have realized that this was a product of her condition and would not
> taken advantage of the situation, no argument there. Butif kissing
> someone and jumping them isn't asking for it*, I really don't know what
> is.
>
> It* being the fling. She didn't ask for or deserve the attempted rape.
That is one of the most spectacular pieces of semantic gymnastics I've
seen for ages. The wounded bird (to pursue an analogy that pretty much
goes out of its way to minimise Buffy's trauma) doesn't know a cat from
a cactus. Spike saw one moment of vulnerability and was over her like a
rash and never let go, pretty well constantly taunting her and playing
on that vulnerability from then on, knowing damned well that she was too
emotionally shattered to resist for any length of time.
Pretty much like any other low-life abuser. "But honey, I love you
*BASH*. No really, it's for your own good *BASH*."
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Mitch Simmons
vague disclaimer
"Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> Am I the only one who found the theory that "vamps are pure evil with no
> conscience" as *simplistic* and "dull as a table-lamp"?
No, why do you thing they are?
"vamps are pure evil with no conscience" is not equal to "vamps are
inherently evil".
alphakitten
> "Naturally by invoking Occam's razor I am inherently conceding that
> it's
> not "conclusive". Nevertheless what I'm saying is that it seems to be
> an unnecessarily complex interpretation of events. i.e. the simpler
> explanation - Spike did intend to get re-ensouled - is more plausible."
>
> I can't agree that's a "simpler" explanation with all that went before.
> To me the simpler explanation is Spike AGAIN wants to get the chip out
> so he can do mayhem generally, not just be able to smack Buffy around.
>
I don't get how that's simple. Again, all he needs is a brain surgeon
and a minion to pull that off. You have to make up some reason why he'd
rather go all the way to Africa and suffer trials.
> Alternatively, if I had to accept he went to get re-ensouled, then it
> would have been for all the wrong reasons as an evil evil thing cannot
> act for the right reasons even with a restraining chip.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
If doing what was right was his concern, he would have simply left
Sunnydale and Buffy in peace. IMO, he went on the soul quest because he
knew soulless Spike had absolutley no chance with Buffy after the AR.
And as an added incentive, it was probably the only way he could avoid
being staked on sight by Xander or Giles.
Since he was still desperate for a future with Buffy, it was really his
only option.
~Angel
alphakitten
>
>
> That is one of the most spectacular pieces of semantic gymnastics I've
> seen for ages. The wounded bird (to pursue an analogy that pretty much
> goes out of its way to minimise Buffy's trauma) doesn't know a cat from
> a cactus. Spike saw one moment of vulnerability and was over her like a
> rash and never let go, pretty well constantly taunting her and playing
> on that vulnerability from then on, knowing damned well that she was too
> emotionally shattered to resist for any length of time.
The wounded bird thing wasn't supposed to minimize anything, the point
was that he was not the hunter and she was not the prey (and vice versa,
it was much more complicated than that). She sought his company, she
made all the first moves physically. What Spike did, was fail to say "no
Buffy, it would be wrong!", wretched yes, but given the whole
inherently evil thing, hardly shocking.
And yes, he also failed to twiddle his thumbs patiently while she went
back and forth smooching him one minute and rejecting him the next. Of
all the horrendous things he did, I have trouble considering that to be
one of them.
~Angel
alphakitten
I believe that may have had something to do with the fact that the
doctor in that was not a brain surgeon.
~Angel