AOQ Review 4-22: "Restless"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
(or "Cheese makes all the difference")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
I've watched "Restless" twice, trying to make sense of it.
There's a lot to think about, and a lot that's still vague.
Although things were clearer the second time, I still have to say that
I'm not sure I get it, although I have a few ideas. Some of it is
probably supposed to make sense to those who've been paying close
attention, some of it probably relates to plans for Season Five, and
some of it has no deeper meaning than the surrealism. Cryptic symbolic
crap isn't my thing, so an episode that's full of nothing else
isn't my style, but I did enjoy it overall. Especially because of
the "I can't believe they're doing this as the season finale"
factor. If you're going to do a BTVS Art Project, it'd better at
least be interesting, and Joss seems to have a knack for delivering on
that regard.
Moving the opening to before the teaser is a good way to get our
attention, even if it made me stop to go through the DVD chapter
selection menu to make sure we weren't skipping a scene. The FBI
warning into unconsciousness is similarly attention-grabbing; we know
it's going to be a weird one. From there, each act is a different
dream, which is filled with either deep meaning or pretension,
depending on your tastes. There's nothing for it but to go through
them one by one... I'm sure these have been dissected to death
already, but it's new to me. So I'll just jot down a few thoughts
that come to mind, and y'all feel free to jump in.
WILLOW
- This one held together the easiest on first viewing, but it's not
becoming less confusing now. There's a lot about names and hidden
identities here. "Acting is not about behaving, it's about hiding.
The audience wants to find you, strip you naked, and eat you alive, so
hide." Willow's maybe afraid that having let others share her
identity, that they'll discover what she's been keeping to herself,
and be disgusted by... what, exactly? It's not witchcraft, it's
not Tara... Constant references to her outfit as a "costume,"
underneath which she turns out to have her old hair and demeanor from a
dorkier time. Has a childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see
herself that way?
- We first meet the random muting of the sound here, which'll be used
to such great effect in Buffy's dream. (I don't feel like listing
all the times one dream foreshadows another, though. Most of them are
in Xander's.)
- Of all the strange and unsettling ways to introduce Oz into this
episode, it's hard to top him just being there, talking about class
and Tara and such, as if nothing's happened.
- Mrs. Quality liked this whole sequence a lot, since it's very much
like a real dream in the way it randomly crams high school and college
people and places together.
- Since we haven't revealed the plot yet, there's room for a lot of
straight-up humor, like the cowboy in _Death Of A Salesman_ and so on.
The part with Harmony trying to nibble on Giles, and his reactions, may
well be the highlight of the episode.
- I probably got more turned on than seems appropriate by Buffy tearing
Willow's clothes off. What can I say?
XANDER
- I actually didn't pick up on it the first time, but this dream is
the most focused. It's downright obsessed with the idea of being
outside of things, being left behind. I didn't count how many
references there were to catching up, or others having gone ahead, but
I'm guessing at least a dozen. It's a fairly standard role for
Xander after "The Zeppo," "Fear Itself," et al, but it's not
too old yet, and helps soften how much the writers have ignored the
character this season. Throughout the dream, he talks constantly about
moving forward while staying in the same few places. "Your time is
running out." And this may have something to do with his family,
being born into his role, but that's not really clear to me.
- _The Graduate_ comes to mind in the part with Joyce, which made me
wonder whether the whole sequence was going to consist of movie
homages. But I didn't recognize anything else until they went back
to _Apocalypse Now_. Of course, I don't really watch movies.
(I've never actually seen AN either, but I'll take Shimerman over
Brando as Kurtz.)
- I like how Willow doesn't appear until well into the dream. Since
we just saw her "die," it keeps the first-timer wondering.
- We've finally found a situation in which an obvious blue screen
seems appropriate, and dammit, we're gonna use it.
- This is the only time the First Slayer disguises itself as someone
else en route to making a kill. No idea what that means, if anything.
GILES
- The last two dreams were more confusing for me, probably because of
the higher density of "weird stuff that seems 'meaningful.'"
This one's the shortest. I think a good portion of it is also about
making sense of the plot for the audience, though. This is where the
characters start putting together exactly what's hunting them. I
wasn't clear on whether they're able to collaborate across dreams;
here what happened to Willow and Xander seems to reach Giles, but its
unclear whether he was able to warn Buffy.
- Otherwise, there are a few ideas that seem to be about Giles'
conception of what a Watcher does, or that's how I saw it. Raising
Buffy as a daughter and trying to keep her focused on the gravity of
her duty, and later feeling like things depend on him to put them
together. He really wants to believe in the importance of what he's
done for Buffy, despite his falling out with the WC. "You couldn't
know. You never had a Watcher."
- Don't know what Spike's part has to do with anything here. Same
with Anya's performance, or why the show has her start off not
connecting and then getting people to laugh. It's fun, though.
"Quiet! You'll miss the humorous conclusion."
- Giles bursting into song and performing the plot for us has to be one
of the most wonderfully surreal and cool moments of the series. Kudos
to whomever wrote the song for actually coming up with a way for those
lyrics to be sung without sounding too horrible.
BUFFY
- The closest thing I can think of to a recurring theme here is that
Buffy thinks she's in control of everything, even when she isn't.
Situations where she can't participate, where her weapons turn into
mud and such, seem foreign and confusing. Then when things get
internalized, she's back on top of things, seeming more weirded out
by cheese-guy than by Slayer1. Unflappable. Given that we're four
years into the show, she is, or thinks she is, in control of her Slayer
side. "I'm going to ignore you, and you're going to go away...
You're not the source of me." Maybe that's why it's more of a
threat to the others, who're meeting that primal instinct for the
first time.
- She totally could've broken that flimsy wall to get to her mom.
Instead, she accepts one "I'm fine" comment and leaves her yet
again. That's a quietly creepy moment.
- I'm glad they told us that was Adam, or I wouldn't have
recognized him without the makeup and voice.
- What does it mean that Tara speaks for Slayer1? Does that reflect at
all on her appearances in the other dreams? Given that they repeated
the voiceover at the end, it'd seem that wherever Buffy's going,
she hasn't even begun...
So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the episode
is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the guy with the
cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness with no hidden meaning,
but I'm not totally confident even of that. (Insert "central
metaphor of the series" joke here.)
The fiancée thinks that I shouldn't even rate this one, just throw
up my hands and say that it's too weird. I could see that. Its
rating is my most tentative ever, very likely to change as I learn to
understand how well it does or doesn't tie in to the series as a
whole. But for now, it is possible to evaluate how well it
entertained. And while I might have preferred something that, you
know, made sense, it's an hour well spent, and what has to be one of
the most unique season finales in television.
So...
One-sentence summary: Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Four ratings:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak
12) "A New Man" - Decent
13) "The I In Team" - Good
14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
16) "Who Are You?" - Good
17) "Superstar" - Decent
18) "Where The Wild Things Are" - Decent
19) "New Moon Rising" - Excellent
20) "The Yoko Factor" - Weak
21) "Primeval" - Decent
22) "Restless" - Good]
BY THE NUMBERS
_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ Season Four
Bad - 0
Weak - 3
Decent - 7
Good - 10
Excellent - 2
Average rating: 3.5 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 55%
_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ so far
Bad - 2
Weak - 6
Decent - 23
Good - 34
Excellent - 13
Ratings by season:
S1: Mean = 3.67, 50% quality
S2: Mean = 3.55, 64% quality
S3: Mean= 3.86, 68% quality
S4: Mean= 3.5, 55% quality
Series so far: Mean = 3.64, 60% quality
peachy ashie passion
>
> The fiancée thinks that I shouldn't even rate this one, just throw
> up my hands and say that it's too weird. >
Of all the smart, on point and topically relevant things you said,
this is my only comment.
You said fiancee where you usually say Mrs. AoQ, and for a brief time
there I thought you had one of each.
peach
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> - What does it mean that Tara speaks for Slayer1? Does that reflect at
> all on her appearances in the other dreams? Given that they repeated
> the voiceover at the end, it'd seem that wherever Buffy's going,
> she hasn't even begun...
TARA
You think you know. What you are. What's to come. You haven't even begun.
Quite possibly the most meaningful line of the entire series. I'm just
sayin...
burt...@hotmail.com
>
> WILLOW
> - This one held together the easiest on first viewing, but it's not
> becoming less confusing now. There's a lot about names and hidden
> identities here. "Acting is not about behaving, it's about hiding.
> The audience wants to find you, strip you naked, and eat you alive, so
> hide." Willow's maybe afraid that having let others share her
> identity, that they'll discover what she's been keeping to herself,
> and be disgusted by... what, exactly? It's not witchcraft, it's
> not Tara... Constant references to her outfit as a "costume,"
> underneath which she turns out to have her old hair and demeanor from a
> dorkier time. Has a childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see
> herself that way?
Well, Xander's dream probably had the most obvious interpretation, but
I think Willow's is pretty clear too. She's afraid that, deep down, she
still the girl in the ugly brown dress who gets laughed at when it's
her turn to speak in front of the class, and she's afraid that people
will see that and no one will like her anymore. Her friends have
accepted her witchcraft, they've accepted her relationship with Tara,
but she's still afraid to be seen as a geek because on some level, she
thinks they won't accept that.
> XANDER
One thing you didn't mention that I thought was really interesting was
the fact that Buffy is the only woman who isn't sexualized by Xander's
subconscious. I think this is some pretty strong evidence that he's
gotten over his crush on her and sees her as a friend and even possibly
(given her "big brother" comment) as sort of a sister.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
> (or "Cheese makes all the difference")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
one in because it'll really blow your mind. I'm just sayin....
This episode was one of the most discussed ever. The cheese metaphor was
dissected by many but one of my favorite explanations compared it to the
line from the old nursery rhyme "The Farmer in the Dell":
'The Cheese Stands Alone'
I'd provide a link but there are spoilers aplenty. Also, what scenes you
don't get now, you might get later on.
The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But now
it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the most
interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
One of the most amazing aspects of Btvs is that Joss was never afraid to
take chances and do out of the ordinary episodes like this. It's one of
the reasons it's my favorite show and definitely one of the reasons why
it's considered one of the best TV shows ever made by TV Guide and other
publications.
Matter of fact, I'm going to go watch it again right now....
kenm47
hindsight, I can rewatch Restless and now say:
Pfooey! Bah humbug! Pretentious childish crap! Filled an hour, but to
no real point.
Some interesting moments, but pretty much an inside joke carried to an
extreme. An SNL skit that went on long after the laughter died away.
Ah well.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
> (or "Cheese makes all the difference")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> I've watched "Restless" twice, trying to make sense of it.
> There's a lot to think about, and a lot that's still vague.
Six years later, and that is still the case.
> Although things were clearer the second time, I still have to say that
> I'm not sure I get it, although I have a few ideas. Some of it is
> probably supposed to make sense to those who've been paying close
> attention, some of it probably relates to plans for Season Five, and
> some of it has no deeper meaning than the surrealism. Cryptic symbolic
> crap isn't my thing, so an episode that's full of nothing else
> isn't my style, but I did enjoy it overall.
I think that for the most part, this episode is more about the
characters, and where they are in their lives, than it it about
foreshadowing the future, except for the obvious bit of foreshadowing at
the start of Buffy's dream. People will be picking this episode apart
for the next three seasons, and trying to find meanings in it. In a
future episode Spike is going to show up wearing a suit. People are
going to go "Oh! This was foreshadowed by Xander's dream!" No, the
script writer just remembered that he'd been shown wearing a suit, and
decided to revive it.
>
> WILLOW
> - This one held together the easiest on first viewing, but it's not
> becoming less confusing now. There's a lot about names and hidden
> identities here. "Acting is not about behaving, it's about hiding.
> The audience wants to find you, strip you naked, and eat you alive, so
> hide." Willow's maybe afraid that having let others share her
> identity, that they'll discover what she's been keeping to herself,
> and be disgusted by... what, exactly? It's not witchcraft, it's
> not Tara... Constant references to her outfit as a "costume,"
> underneath which she turns out to have her old hair and demeanor from a
> dorkier time. Has a childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see
> herself that way?
>
> - We first meet the random muting of the sound here, which'll be used
> to such great effect in Buffy's dream. (I don't feel like listing
> all the times one dream foreshadows another, though. Most of them are
> in Xander's.)
>
> - Of all the strange and unsettling ways to introduce Oz into this
> episode, it's hard to top him just being there, talking about class
> and Tara and such, as if nothing's happened.
>
> - Mrs. Quality liked this whole sequence a lot, since it's very much
> like a real dream in the way it randomly crams high school and college
> people and places together.
>
> - Since we haven't revealed the plot yet, there's room for a lot of
> straight-up humor, like the cowboy in Death Of A Salesman and so on.
> The part with Harmony trying to nibble on Giles, and his reactions, may
> well be the highlight of the episode.
>
> - I probably got more turned on than seems appropriate by Buffy tearing
> Willow's clothes off. What can I say?
A very common feeling among many successful people is that "I'm not
really as good as everyone thinks. One of these days people are going
to discover that I'm a fraud!" I think that is a large part of what's
underlying Willow's dream.
> XANDER
> - I actually didn't pick up on it the first time, but this dream is
> the most focused. It's downright obsessed with the idea of being
> outside of things, being left behind.
And also, stuck in the basement. Every path he takes leads him right
back down into the basement.
>
> - We've finally found a situation in which an obvious blue screen
> seems appropriate, and dammit, we're gonna use it.
And look, we've got all our sets in one building, so let's have Xander
go from set to set to set in one long oner shot. (They may have hidden
an edit when he went from Buffy's closet into the tunnel that took him
back to the basement.)
> GILES
> - The last two dreams were more confusing for me, probably because of
> the higher density of "weird stuff that seems 'meaningful.'"
> This one's the shortest. I think a good portion of it is also about
> making sense of the plot for the audience, though. This is where the
> characters start putting together exactly what's hunting them. I
> wasn't clear on whether they're able to collaborate across dreams;
> here what happened to Willow and Xander seems to reach Giles, but its
> unclear whether he was able to warn Buffy.
>
> - Otherwise, there are a few ideas that seem to be about Giles'
> conception of what a Watcher does, or that's how I saw it. Raising
> Buffy as a daughter and trying to keep her focused on the gravity of
> her duty, and later feeling like things depend on him to put them
> together. He really wants to believe in the importance of what he's
> done for Buffy, despite his falling out with the WC. "You couldn't
> know. You never had a Watcher."
>
> - Don't know what Spike's part has to do with anything here. Same
> with Anya's performance, or why the show has her start off not
> connecting and then getting people to laugh. It's fun, though.
> "Quiet! You'll miss the humorous conclusion."
>
> - Giles bursting into song and performing the plot for us has to be one
> of the most wonderfully surreal and cool moments of the series. Kudos
> to whomever wrote the song for actually coming up with a way for those
> lyrics to be sung without sounding too horrible.
Joss wrote it. It's called "The Exposition Song" (Chris Beck, who did
much of music for Buffy over several seasons, and who Joss always called
on when he wanted something special, is the guy playing keyboard for
him.)
Again a big part of this dream is about Giles having given up things
like a family, in order to be Buffy's Watcher.
Well, yes, it is. The Cheese is the Slayer. In Willow's dream, the
Cheese Man tells her "I made a little space for the cheese slices."
Buffy must make room in her life for the Slayer. Every time she tries
to cut herself off from it, it leads to disaster.
The Cheese Man tells Xander "These [the cheese] will not protect you."
In the end, it is always Buffy's humanity that triumphs. The Slayer
alone isn't enough.
The Cheese Man tells Giles "I wear the cheese. It does not wear me."
The Slayer is something that Buffy wears. She has control of the
Slayer, the Slayer does not control her.
In Buffy's dream the Cheese Man and the cheese are a distraction.
Sometimes the Slayer is a distraction. It is only by ignoring the First
Slayer that Buffy is able to defeat her.
>
> One-sentence summary: Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.
Here I was wondering if you noticed the time on Buffy's clock.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
I've been wondering about that a bit myself. The fiancee has been
mentioned in a couple of earlier reviews too. Got me wondering if AoQ
is into polygamy.
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Jung V gryy lbh guerr gvzrf vf gehr. (Fb sne bayl gjvpr, ohg vg trgf
ercrngrq lrg ntnva, va gur arkg rcvfbqr.)
alphakitten
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
>> (or "Cheese makes all the difference")
>> Writer: Joss Whedon
>> Director: Joss Whedon
>>
> When you've finished watching the entire series, go back and pop this
> one in because it'll really blow your mind. I'm just sayin....
>
> This episode was one of the most discussed ever. The cheese metaphor was
> dissected by many but one of my favorite explanations compared it to the
> line from the old nursery rhyme "The Farmer in the Dell":
>
> 'The Cheese Stands Alone'
>
> I'd provide a link but there are spoilers aplenty. Also, what scenes you
> don't get now, you might get later on.
>
> The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But now
> it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the most
> interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
I used to tape the show and when this aired, I stayed up and watched it
three or four times in a row. I couldn't get enough of it. It's #2 of
144 for me, second only to Bapr Zber jvgu Srryvat.
~Angel
peachy ashie passion
> In article <%x4eg.236$xO5.156@trnddc03>,
> peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The fiancée thinks that I shouldn't even rate this one, just throw
>>>up my hands and say that it's too weird. >
>>
>> Of all the smart, on point and topically relevant things you said,
>>this is my only comment.
>>
>> You said fiancee where you usually say Mrs. AoQ, and for a brief time
>>there I thought you had one of each.
>>
>> peach
>
>
> I've been wondering about that a bit myself. The fiancee has been
> mentioned in a couple of earlier reviews too. Got me wondering if AoQ
> is into polygamy.
>
I believe he said explicitly that she's a fiancee and he's calling
her Mrs. anyway. I believe.
It's a better story with the polygamy though.
Arbitrar Of Quality
peachy ashie passion wrote:
> I believe he said explicitly that she's a fiancee and he's calling
> her Mrs. anyway. I believe.
Yes. We're not getting married anytime soon, but I fell in love with
the idea of calling her "Mrs. Quality."
> It's a better story with the polygamy though.
Well...
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> One thing you didn't mention that I thought was really interesting was
> the fact that Buffy is the only woman who isn't sexualized by Xander's
> subconscious. I think this is some pretty strong evidence that he's
> gotten over his crush on her and sees her as a friend and even possibly
> (given her "big brother" comment) as sort of a sister.
That's a very good point, which I didn't pick up on. He started the
series obsessing over her, and now we're here.
-AOQ
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Moving the opening to before the teaser is a good way to get our
> attention
Joss wanted Act I to start without credits on the screen as Willow's
dream begins. So he switched the "teaser" and the main titles.
> From there, each act is a different
> dream, which is filled with either deep meaning or pretension,
> depending on your tastes.
Though many people do use that word, it's never struck me as
pretentious when a director goes for style over substance (or
style-more-prominent-than-substance), as long as s/he is good at it,
and the substance isn't lost entirely. Hommages and surrealist
experiments cause some to roll the eyes and say "Oh my, isn't he
clever? How precious. Please pass the barf bag." But in TV,
especially, where an episode can stand aside from its series yet still
be part of it, the strangeness can be a success.
Not to say that substance is weak in Restless. Whedon manages to
represent dreams' bizarre conflations of people and places, sudden
shifts, subliminal characterizations and desires, and of course the
fears that overwhelm the mind -- and through their dreams he explores
important aspects of our four principal characters. I loved this
showcase of the four who've been leading the show since the beginning.
So many favorite moments... The first music cue as Willow's dream
begins. Giles as Theatre Director and Buffy as femme fatale. Willow
in the WTTH dress (my god! what a flashback). Camera drifting away
from Joyce, and Xander hearing her speak though her mouth doesn't move.
Spike and the photographers in black&white. Giles delivering his
mundane exposition through song. The confusion of language in Xander's
dream given the visual confusion of color. Buffy "killing" vampire
puppets at the carnival. The fight in the desert, harshly bright and
beautiful at the same time. The living room, with Willow convulsing in
her sleep, visited through another dream.
Xander seeing Willow and Tara as supersexy lipstick lesbians is
perfect; his subconscious mind would naturally go there. And Snyder!
What a remarkable way to give Shimerman a cameo. Xander being still
haunted by figures like Snyder seems accurate to me.
I could go on for pages... I suppose Joss's wild directorial flair,
and how he uses it, just really captivates me. His trio of Hush, Who
Are You and Restless are my top 3 of the season in no fixed order,
Restless sometimes ascending to #1.
--Kevin
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> There's a lot to think about, and a lot that's still vague.
its a dream not a narrative
its supposed to put you in an emotional space not tell a story
if you got the emotions then it was successful
> probably supposed to make sense to those who've been paying close
> attention, some of it probably relates to plans for Season Five, and
theres a little foreshadowing
but its more about the emotional state of the characters as they are
at that moment
willow - spiritus - spirit - has her breath sucked out
breath is often associated with the spirit or soul
xander - heart - has his heart ripped out
giles - sophus - wisdom - has his head cut open
buffy - manus - hand - has personal combat with the first slayer
> WILLOW
> underneath which she turns out to have her old hair and demeanor from a
> dorkier time. Has a childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see
> herself that way?
willow is still the insecure passive aggressive geek
shes got better clothes but a still the same bundle of anxiety underneath
> XANDER
> - I actually didn't pick up on it the first time, but this dream is
> the most focused. It's downright obsessed with the idea of being
> outside of things, being left behind. I didn't count how many
and he keeps ending up back in the basement
xander sees himself as a failure who cant keep a job
and cant escape the abusive environment he grew up in
> (I've never actually seen AN either, but I'll take Shimerman over
> Brando as Kurtz.)
the future of our country is mulch
> GILES
> - The last two dreams were more confusing for me, probably because of
> the higher density of "weird stuff that seems 'meaningful.'"
> This one's the shortest. I think a good portion of it is also about
> making sense of the plot for the audience, though. This is where the
giles is the ex-watcher unemployed loser with no direction in life
it goes over quickly but in the crypt olivia crying
sitting next to an overturned stroller
he has to make a choice
to settle into a more normal life husband to olivia raising children
or fighting the good fight with buffy as her watcher
giles feels compelled to make sense of it
to find the plot to analyze to make plans with his squishy frontal lobes
but it comes to naught and he ends up just another victim
> - Giles bursting into song and performing the plot for us has to be one
the exposition song
one the great absurd moments of the series
> BUFFY
> - The closest thing I can think of to a recurring theme here is that
> Buffy thinks she's in control of everything, even when she isn't.
im a slayer not a killer
one girl alone in all the world
being a slayer gives buffy all sorts of neat powers
but it also puts her a war not of her making
and constantly tries to isolate her from rest of humanity
buffys struggle is to control the violence and remain human
if you need a plot then its the spirit of first slayer was awakened
and she was outraged at how buffy was violating the rules of slayerhood
so the first was isolating buffy by killing off her friends
and then tried to draw buffy into the primal violence
so that buffy would live fight and die as a proper slayer should
buffy defeated the first slayer but choosing not to do that
> - I'm glad they told us that was Adam, or I wouldn't have
> recognized him without the makeup and voice.
i think that in a slayer dream kind of way
buffy actually made contact to the man who became adam
amd makes it all the sadder to what walsh turned him into
so now we know were everybody is
and what they need to face
will they?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
JJ Karhu
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
>(or "Cheese makes all the difference")
>Writer: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.
>
>AOQ rating: Good
You are dead to me.
// JJ
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> I think that for the most part, this episode is more about the
> characters, and where they are in their lives, than it it about
> foreshadowing the future, except for the obvious bit of foreshadowing at
> the start of Buffy's dream. People will be picking this episode apart
> for the next three seasons, and trying to find meanings in it.
<snip for minor spoiler>
Jura qvq Wbff fnl gung? V jbhyq ybir gb ernq n dhbgr sebz uvz fgngvat
gung vg zrnag abguvat. Rfcrpvnyyl jura pbafvqrevat gur funex ersrerapr
naq Tvyrf zragvbavat gung "Fcvxr vf yvxr n fba gb zr". Rvgure Wbff jrag
onpx naq hfrq gubfr ersreraprf be ur unq gurz va uvf zvaq qhevat gung
rcvfbqr. Rvgure jnl, vg'f fgvyy sberfunqbjvat fvapr Erfgyrff nverq svefg.
V qb erzrzore bar dhbgr sebz Wbff gung fgngrq gur bayl guvat va gur
rcvfbqr gung zrnag abguvat jnf gur Purrfr thl...
Nyfb, vg'f n zvabe bar ohg jura lbh fgneg n fragrapr jvgu "Va n shgher
rcvfbqr..." gung VF n fcbvyre.
One Bit Shy
news:1148768544.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
> So...
> One-sentence summary: Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.
Cool. You saw that. Now what does it mean? LOL!
> AOQ rating: Good
Willow: No. I never do anything. I'm very seldom naughty.
There. My only qoute from Restless. Makes me giggle.
I also wanted to mention that it took the longest time for me to realize
that was Tara in the ice cream truck with Willow. She's so tarted up I
didn't recognize her. I kept wondering who the new chick was.
What are dreams in BtVS? Yep. Prophetic. Since this is a really big dream
(4 of 'em no less), then what do you want to bet that it's really, really
prophetic? And since it's the season finale it must be about next year
and -gasp- maybe beyond that.
OK, ok. Stating the obvious. But that's the problem. It can be difficult
to delve too deeply into this without rolling over into futue events. I'll
just try to enjoy what others have to say.
Although I suppose I should add that it's prophetic aspect is really kind of
limited. It matters, but most of Restless is an exploration of the
characters today. And the prophetic side is, as prophecies are wont to be,
a little problematic. Does the prophecy predict the future? Or does the
future define the prophecy? There are "prophecies" in here that I suspect
were never intended to be such.
I can say that I found it a difficult episode to really get into initially.
Still entertaining, mind you. I always delight in the absurdity of dream
logic, and there are many amusing and visually arresting moments in these
dreams - even if they don't always make a lot of sense. By your rating
system, I would have given it a Good first time out.
But this is the episode, more than any other, that rewards repeated viewing
as you progress through the later seasons. As the series story unfolds, so
does this episode towards greater and greater understanding. Again, not
just in the prophetic sense. The future informs the past in funny ways. A
little connection, a small reminder, and suddenly a whole set of ideas
tumble into place. I won't say full understanding though. Maybe some have
gotten there. I know I haven't. There are still things I don't understand.
And I expect there are other things I don't even know exist.
It's continuing mystery is one of its great attributes. Today it would be
the #4 episode in the series to me. Such a high ranking seems to me to be
fairly typical among long time fans. I've seen some rank it #1. They may
be right.
OBS
William George Ferguson
Besides being attention getting, Whedon didn't want to do the guest-star
credits over the dream sequence. Once that started he didn't want
distractions (or rather, only the distractions he deliberately put in).
>From there, each act is a different
>dream, which is filled with either deep meaning or pretension,
>depending on your tastes. There's nothing for it but to go through
>them one by one... I'm sure these have been dissected to death
>already, but it's new to me. So I'll just jot down a few thoughts
>that come to mind, and y'all feel free to jump in.
>
>WILLOW
>- This one held together the easiest on first viewing, but it's not
>becoming less confusing now. There's a lot about names and hidden
>identities here. "Acting is not about behaving, it's about hiding.
>The audience wants to find you, strip you naked, and eat you alive, so
>hide." Willow's maybe afraid that having let others share her
>identity, that they'll discover what she's been keeping to herself,
>and be disgusted by... what, exactly? It's not witchcraft, it's
>not Tara... Constant references to her outfit as a "costume,"
>underneath which she turns out to have her old hair and demeanor from a
>dorkier time. Has a childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see
>herself that way?
That's what I took out of it the first time, and I've never felt really
moved to change. Underneath everything, in the inner space that she
doesn't show anyone (probably not, or maybe even especially not, Tara),
she sees herself as the geeky nerd. Think about the choice of book, she
is in high school doing a book report that would fit better in grade
school.
We got a hint of how horrifically bad Willow's self-image is, regardless
the front she puts up, back in Earshot. Her dream is a lot more explicit
about it.
>- We first meet the random muting of the sound here, which'll be used
>to such great effect in Buffy's dream. (I don't feel like listing
>all the times one dream foreshadows another, though. Most of them are
>in Xander's.)
>- Of all the strange and unsettling ways to introduce Oz into this
>episode, it's hard to top him just being there, talking about class
>and Tara and such, as if nothing's happened.
>
>- Mrs. Quality liked this whole sequence a lot, since it's very much
>like a real dream in the way it randomly crams high school and college
>people and places together.
>
>- Since we haven't revealed the plot yet, there's room for a lot of
>straight-up humor, like the cowboy in _Death Of A Salesman_ and so on.
>The part with Harmony trying to nibble on Giles, and his reactions, may
>well be the highlight of the episode.
That also says a lot about how Willow sees Giles (and Harmony for that
matter).
>- I probably got more turned on than seems appropriate by Buffy tearing
>Willow's clothes off. What can I say?
Gee, how did you react to the scene in the ice cream truck?
>XANDER
>- I actually didn't pick up on it the first time, but this dream is
>the most focused. It's downright obsessed with the idea of being
>outside of things, being left behind. I didn't count how many
>references there were to catching up, or others having gone ahead, but
>I'm guessing at least a dozen. It's a fairly standard role for
>Xander after "The Zeppo," "Fear Itself," et al, but it's not
>too old yet, and helps soften how much the writers have ignored the
>character this season. Throughout the dream, he talks constantly about
>moving forward while staying in the same few places. "Your time is
>running out." And this may have something to do with his family,
>being born into his role, but that's not really clear to me.
All that, and you didn't mention the one thing that stands out the
strongest for me, the killing metaphor for Xander being stuck in place.
Xander makes basically a tour of all the standing sets at the Buffy
warehous/soundstage. There's a lot of 'in-one' continous shots following
him from set to set. And he always ends up back in that damned basement.
That's the one thing I took away from Xander's dream, he has to move out
of that damned basement.
>- _The Graduate_ comes to mind in the part with Joyce, which made me
>wonder whether the whole sequence was going to consist of movie
>homages. But I didn't recognize anything else until they went back
>to _Apocalypse Now_. Of course, I don't really watch movies.
>(I've never actually seen AN either, but I'll take Shimerman over
>Brando as Kurtz.)
>
>- I like how Willow doesn't appear until well into the dream. Since
>we just saw her "die," it keeps the first-timer wondering.
>- We've finally found a situation in which an obvious blue screen
>seems appropriate, and dammit, we're gonna use it.
And use it they do, in much the same way it was used in the car ride in
Airplane.
>- This is the only time the First Slayer disguises itself as someone
>else en route to making a kill. No idea what that means, if anything.
>
>GILES
>- The last two dreams were more confusing for me, probably because of
>the higher density of "weird stuff that seems 'meaningful.'"
>This one's the shortest. I think a good portion of it is also about
>making sense of the plot for the audience, though. This is where the
>characters start putting together exactly what's hunting them. I
>wasn't clear on whether they're able to collaborate across dreams;
>here what happened to Willow and Xander seems to reach Giles, but its
>unclear whether he was able to warn Buffy.
>
>- Otherwise, there are a few ideas that seem to be about Giles'
>conception of what a Watcher does, or that's how I saw it. Raising
>Buffy as a daughter and trying to keep her focused on the gravity of
>her duty, and later feeling like things depend on him to put them
>together. He really wants to believe in the importance of what he's
>done for Buffy, despite his falling out with the WC. "You couldn't
>know. You never had a Watcher."
>
>- Don't know what Spike's part has to do with anything here. Same
>with Anya's performance, or why the show has her start off not
>connecting and then getting people to laugh. It's fun, though.
>"Quiet! You'll miss the humorous conclusion."
One of the things I worked out early, is that, among other things, the
dreams are showing us the character's perceptions, not only of themselves,
but of others. We see that Willow's view of Giles in the Death of a
Salesman bit, and also her view of the whole Buffy/Riley thing (and it
isn't terribly flattering). In the end, we see that she thinks that if
the others ever figure out that she's still mousy little nerd-Willow, they
will discount and laugh at her, she won't have value to them. And she
Must have value to them (that was the lesson in Earshot).
In the scene with Anya doing stand-up in the background, we see how Giles
sees her (very marginally, and primarily as a clown and an annoyance). The
Spike scenes are how Giles sees Spike, a poseur and a peacock. Also, pick
up the way that Olivia is marginalized out of his life. I tended to take
that as his view of how he doesn't really have a life outside of being
Buffy's Watcher.
>- Giles bursting into song and performing the plot for us has to be one
>of the most wonderfully surreal and cool moments of the series. Kudos
>to whomever wrote the song for actually coming up with a way for those
>lyrics to be sung without sounding too horrible.
That would be one Joseph (legally changed to 'Joss') Whedon. Christophe
Beck did the arrangement, and is the guy playing the piano behind Giles
(the rest of the group is Four Star Mary, the real band that played Oz's
group Dingoes Ate My Baby).
>BUFFY
>- The closest thing I can think of to a recurring theme here is that
>Buffy thinks she's in control of everything, even when she isn't.
>Situations where she can't participate, where her weapons turn into
>mud and such, seem foreign and confusing. Then when things get
>internalized, she's back on top of things, seeming more weirded out
>by cheese-guy than by Slayer1. Unflappable. Given that we're four
>years into the show, she is, or thinks she is, in control of her Slayer
>side. "I'm going to ignore you, and you're going to go away...
>You're not the source of me." Maybe that's why it's more of a
>threat to the others, who're meeting that primal instinct for the
>first time.
>
>- She totally could've broken that flimsy wall to get to her mom.
>Instead, she accepts one "I'm fine" comment and leaves her yet
>again. That's a quietly creepy moment.
And is kind of (well, actually, exactly) a metaphor for Buffy's
relationship with Joyce this season.
>- I'm glad they told us that was Adam, or I wouldn't have
>recognized him without the makeup and voice.
And did you pick up on Adam's implication that Buffy's Slayer power is
demon-based? Tbat certainly put the fox in the hen house back when this
first aired.
>- What does it mean that Tara speaks for Slayer1? Does that reflect at
>all on her appearances in the other dreams? Given that they repeated
>the voiceover at the end, it'd seem that wherever Buffy's going,
>she hasn't even begun...
I think for it to work, they needed a voice that wasn't one of the
dreamers. That left Anya and Tara, and Tara works better here.
Whedon wanted the words clear but did want the First Slayer to be able to
speak clearly in modern English (plus, I don't think Sharon Ferguson had
the voice he wanted).
>So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the episode
>is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the guy with the
>cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness with no hidden meaning,
>but I'm not totally confident even of that. (Insert "central
>metaphor of the series" joke here.)
Joss maintains to this day that the cheese doesn't mean anything, and, to
this day, people don't believe him.
Ooh, so much numbery goodness
(of course, Giles would say "This could be mathier.")
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
One Bit Shy
news:1148772098....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> XANDER
>
> One thing you didn't mention that I thought was really interesting was
> the fact that Buffy is the only woman who isn't sexualized by Xander's
> subconscious. I think this is some pretty strong evidence that he's
> gotten over his crush on her and sees her as a friend and even possibly
> (given her "big brother" comment) as sort of a sister.
In the same scene, Xander seems to imply that he's moving on from being like
a son to Giles. I wonder what Giles would think of that.
OBS
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the episode
> >is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the guy with the
> >cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness with no hidden meaning,
> >but I'm not totally confident even of that. (Insert "central
> >metaphor of the series" joke here.)
>
> Joss maintains to this day that the cheese doesn't mean anything, and, to
> this day, people don't believe him.
That's because Joss lies like a rug.
Opus the Penguin
> The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But
> now it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the
> most interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
On the whole, for surrealism, I think it succeeds better than the
series finale to The Prisoner.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
> One of the most amazing aspects of Btvs is that Joss was never
> afraid to take chances and do out of the ordinary episodes like
> this. It's one of the reasons it's my favorite show and definitely
> one of the reasons why it's considered one of the best TV shows
> ever made by TV Guide and other publications.
Does TV Guide have a list?
Opus the Penguin
> Xander seeing Willow and Tara as supersexy lipstick lesbians is
> perfect; his subconscious mind would naturally go there. And Snyder!
> What a remarkable way to give Shimerman a cameo. Xander being still
> haunted by figures like Snyder seems accurate to me.
I wonder why the Mayor didn't have a cameo.
Opus the Penguin
> So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the
> episode is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the
> guy with the cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness with
> no hidden meaning, but I'm not totally confident even of that.
> (Insert "central metaphor of the series" joke here.)
It was fun spoiling the season finale for you without actually spoiling
it.
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:127i3tg...@news.supernews.com...
==(Harmony) Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Opus the Penguin
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the
>> >episode is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the
>> >guy with the cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness
>> >with no hidden meaning, but I'm not totally confident even of
>> >that. (Insert "central metaphor of the series" joke here.)
>>
>> Joss maintains to this day that the cheese doesn't mean anything,
>> and, to this day, people don't believe him.
>
> That's because Joss lies like a rug.
>
Indeed he does. Which makes it funnier that he's probably telling the
truth here.
Exp315
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Its
> rating is my most tentative ever, very likely to change as I learn to
> understand how well it does or doesn't tie in to the series as a
> whole.
Truer words never written!
It didn't start out that way, but having seen all the episodes at least
several times, Restless has grown to be my #2 rated episode out of all
144 (don't worry AoQ, #1 is still to come).
This is the one episode where you absolutely must do some research to
pick up all the nuances, some of which are so subtle that only one
person in a thousand would have gotten them on first viewing. Starting,
for example, with the fragment of ancient Greek poetry that Willow was
painting on Tara's back in the first dream scene.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> MBangel10 (Melissa) (mban...@comcast.net) wrote:
>
> > The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But
> > now it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the
> > most interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
>
> On the whole, for surrealism, I think it succeeds better than the
> series finale to The Prisoner.
there is no finale to the prisoner
all he did was escape from one prison to a slightly larger prison
our prison
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Of all the strange and unsettling ways to introduce Oz into this
> episode, it's hard to top him just being there, talking about class
> and Tara and such, as if nothing's happened.
>
Note that the conversation between Oz and Xander continues even after
Willow has left the scene and she should not be aware of Xander's final
spell joke.
Joss left it in despite the continuity problem, just because it made him
laugh.
HWL
Mike Zeares
Horace LaBadie wrote:
>
> Note that the conversation between Oz and Xander continues even after
> Willow has left the scene and she should not be aware of Xander's final
> spell joke.
>
> Joss left it in despite the continuity problem, just because it made him
> laugh.
I have dreams all the time where my p.o.v. seems to shift to 3rd-person
omniscient, so that never bothered me.
-- Mike Zeares
Apteryx
news:1148768544.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>I've watched "Restless" twice, trying to make sense of it.
Twice? Pfft!. It'll take much longer than that :)
>There's a lot to think about, and a lot that's still vague.
>Although things were clearer the second time, I still have to say that
>I'm not sure I get it, although I have a few ideas. Some of it is
>probably supposed to make sense to those who've been paying close
>attention, some of it probably relates to plans for Season Five, and
>some of it has no deeper meaning than the surrealism.
Well that's the easy part. The trick of course is knowing which is which :)
>Cryptic symbolic
>crap isn't my thing, so an episode that's full of nothing else
>isn't my style, but I did enjoy it overall. Especially because of
>the "I can't believe they're doing this as the season finale"
>factor.
Fortune favours the brave.
>Moving the opening to before the teaser is a good way to get our
>attention, even if it made me stop to go through the DVD chapter
>selection menu to make sure we weren't skipping a scene. The FBI
>warning into unconsciousness is similarly attention-grabbing; we know
>it's going to be a weird one. From there, each act is a different
>dream, which is filled with either deep meaning or pretension,
>depending on your tastes. There's nothing for it but to go through
>them one by one... I'm sure these have been dissected to death
>already
I suppose that's possible. Someone probably has had a think or two about it
by now.
>WILLOW
>- This one held together the easiest on first viewing, but it's not
>becoming less confusing now. There's a lot about names and hidden
>identities here. "Acting is not about behaving, it's about hiding.
>The audience wants to find you, strip you naked, and eat you alive, so
>hide." Willow's maybe afraid that having let others share her
>identity, that they'll discover what she's been keeping to herself,
>and be disgusted by... what, exactly? It's not witchcraft, it's
>not Tara... Constant references to her outfit as a "costume,"
>underneath which she turns out to have her old hair and demeanour from a
>dorkier time. Has a childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see
>herself that way?
She's only a year out of high school. At this stage her more confident adult
personality isn't much more than costume.
>- Of all the strange and unsettling ways to introduce Oz into this
>episode, it's hard to top him just being there, talking about class
>and Tara and such, as if nothing's happened.
>- Mrs. Quality liked this whole sequence a lot, since it's very much
>like a real dream in the way it randomly crams high school and college
>people and places together.
Yeah, apart from all the symbolism and possible predictions, this is just a
better and more realistic dream than most dream sequences, even in this
series.
>XANDER
>- I actually didn't pick up on it the first time, but this dream is
>the most focused. It's downright obsessed with the idea of being
>outside of things, being left behind. I didn't count how many
>references there were to catching up, or others having gone ahead, but
>I'm guessing at least a dozen. It's a fairly standard role for
>Xander after "The Zeppo," "Fear Itself," et al, but it's not
>too old yet, and helps soften how much the writers have ignored the
>character this season. Throughout the dream, he talks constantly about
>moving forward while staying in the same few places.
And no matter what he does, always returns to his basement.
>GILES
>- The last two dreams were more confusing for me, probably because of
>the higher density of "weird stuff that seems 'meaningful.'"
>This one's the shortest. I think a good portion of it is also about
>making sense of the plot for the audience, though. This is where the
>characters start putting together exactly what's hunting them. I
>wasn't clear on whether they're able to collaborate across dreams;
>here what happened to Willow and Xander seems to reach Giles, but its
>unclear whether he was able to warn Buffy.
What happened to them seems to be the limit of what is communicated between
dreams. It is Giles, the "mind" part of the Power of Four from Primeval that
does the figuring out.
>- Giles bursting into song and performing the plot for us has to be one
>of the most wonderfully surreal and cool moments of the series. Kudos
>to whomever wrote the song for actually coming up with a way for those
>lyrics to be sung without sounding too horrible.
Loved the audience with the candles.
>BUFFY
>- She totally could've broken that flimsy wall to get to her mom.
>Instead, she accepts one "I'm fine" comment and leaves her yet
>again. That's a quietly creepy moment.
A little more than that in fact. She walks away just as Joyce is suggesting
she could break down the wall.
>- I'm glad they told us that was Adam, or I wouldn't have
>recognized him without the makeup and voice.
I agree with WGF's comments about Anya and Spike in Giles's dream, that Anya
and Spike (themselves) are not magically appearing - that was Giles's
concept of Anya and Spike. That being so, it doesn't look good for
Buffy/Riley that Buffy sees Riley as conspiring with Adam for world
domination, and playing silly boys games.
>The fiancée thinks that I shouldn't even rate this one, just throw
>up my hands and say that it's too weird. I could see that. Its
>rating is my most tentative ever, very likely to change as I learn to
>understand how well it does or doesn't tie in to the series as a
>whole. But for now, it is possible to evaluate how well it
>entertained.
There's something in both those points of view. Your view of will change
when you rewatch it after seeing the whole of the series. Though not
necessarily your rating of it. My rating of it has not changed very much
since I first saw it. For me the marvelling at just how well it links to
later episodes just about cancelled out the disappointments at some portents
that turned out slightly overstate how deep later seasons would go. My
rating now is just very slightly higher than it was originally. I had been
slightly spoiled when I first saw it. I had already seen fragments of
Seasons 5 and 6 in their first broadcast, and knew enough about one key
storyline from Season 5 to recognise a famous line from Restless as
referring to that storyline as soon as I heard it. But a google search
reveals that many people were already spoiled about that very same line from
a rumour about plot developments in Season 5 that had spread before Restless
aired for the first time.
>And while I might have preferred something that, you
>know, made sense,
Whatever for?
>it's an hour well spent, and what has to be one of
>the most unique season finales in television.
It is that.
>One-sentence summary: Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.
Gung yvar jbhyq or dhvgr bhg bs cynpr va Erfgyrff, rira vs vg qbrf hf tbbq
gb or erzvaqrq bs vg
>AOQ rating: Good
A definite Excellent for me, and not far short of Superb (in fact, the best
of the non-Superb BtVS episodes). It's my 6th favourite BtVS episode, 2nd
best in Season 4
--
Apteryx
Mel
Apteryx wrote:
It also doesn't bode well that Riley called her "killer" twice and that
he freaked once she put the mud on her face and began looking rather
primal herself.
Mel
Daniel Damouth
@nntp.aioe.org:
> bar xrl fgbelyvar sebz Frnfba 5
pbhtu
EGK
>These reveiews have been very cathartic for me. With them, and some
>hindsight, I can rewatch Restless and now say:
>
>Pfooey! Bah humbug! Pretentious childish crap! Filled an hour, but to
>no real point.
>
>Some interesting moments, but pretty much an inside joke carried to an
>extreme. An SNL skit that went on long after the laughter died away.
>
>Ah well.
>
>Ken (Brooklyn)
It was definitely Buffy by way of Twin Peaks. Since I never cared for Twin
Peaks (and I tried) I wasn't that in to this either. Still, I can
understand people who do like that kind of thing and rate Restless highly.
Just not my cup of tea.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> >Moving the opening to before the teaser is a good way to get our
> >attention, even if it made me stop to go through the DVD chapter
> >selection menu to make sure we weren't skipping a scene.
>
> Besides being attention getting, Whedon didn't want to do the guest-star
> credits over the dream sequence. Once that started he didn't want
> distractions (or rather, only the distractions he deliberately put in).
Well, that's one way to do it. For reasons I'm not quite clear on, the
STTNG episode "Descent" did the act-one credits over the teaser, but
still positioned it normally before the main titles.
> Xander makes basically a tour of all the standing sets at the Buffy
> warehous/soundstage. There's a lot of 'in-one' continous shots following
> him from set to set. And he always ends up back in that damned basement.
> That's the one thing I took away from Xander's dream, he has to move out
> of that damned basement.
That's not the way out.
> One of the things I worked out early, is that, among other things, the
> dreams are showing us the character's perceptions, not only of themselves,
> but of others. We see that Willow's view of Giles in the Death of a
> Salesman bit, and also her view of the whole Buffy/Riley thing (and it
> isn't terribly flattering). In the end, we see that she thinks that if
> the others ever figure out that she's still mousy little nerd-Willow, they
> will discount and laugh at her, she won't have value to them. And she
> Must have value to them (that was the lesson in Earshot).
>
> In the scene with Anya doing stand-up in the background, we see how Giles
> sees her (very marginally, and primarily as a clown and an annoyance). The
> Spike scenes are how Giles sees Spike, a poseur and a peacock. Also, pick
> up the way that Olivia is marginalized out of his life. I tended to take
> that as his view of how he doesn't really have a life outside of being
> Buffy's Watcher.
All right, that makes sense.
> >So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the episode
> >is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the guy with the
> >cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness with no hidden meaning,
> >but I'm not totally confident even of that. (Insert "central
> >metaphor of the series" joke here.)
>
> Joss maintains to this day that the cheese doesn't mean anything, and, to
> this day, people don't believe him.
Well, I think I've got plenty non-cheese-related to think about.
Besides, if you treat the cheese as purely a joke (with the punchline
being Buffy's final line), it's a pretty funny one.
-AOQ
Paul Hyett
>
>The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'?
I *still* think that.
>
>One of the most amazing aspects of Btvs is that Joss was never afraid
>to take chances and do out of the ordinary episodes like this.
Those tend to be the ones I like least.
Obviously you need to willingly suspend your disbelief to watch BTVS,
but episodes like this, and a certain S6 episode, seem to expect you to
suspend your brain use altogether.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I disagree completely. Restless is one of those episodes that make you
think and try to figure out the puzzle (or even if there is one) while
the other episode that I'm sure you are thinking about is simply
outstanding television.
To each their own.
Stephen Tempest
>This is the one episode where you absolutely must do some research to
>pick up all the nuances, some of which are so subtle that only one
>person in a thousand would have gotten them on first viewing. Starting,
>for example, with the fragment of ancient Greek poetry that Willow was
>painting on Tara's back in the first dream scene.
You know, I hadn't realised until just now what's actually going on in
that scene:
Willow's doing something behind Tara's back - literally - and what
she's doing is using her as a blank canvas, a tabula rasa onto which
she can project her fantasies.
And what is she actually writing? Well, it's usually referred to as
"a love poem", and, as people point out, it's one that was written by
Sappho of Lesbos.
But in actual fact, it isn't "just" a love poem as such. This is the
part that's actually written on Tara's back:
>Immortal Aphrodite of the broidered throne, daughter of Zeus, weaver
>of wiles, I pray thee break not my spirit with anguish and distress, O
>Queen. But come hither, if ever before thou didst hear my voice afar,
>and listen...
and this is how the poem ends - the part in direct speech is what
Sappho wants Aphrodite to say to her:
>"What Beauty now wouldst thou draw to love thee? Who wrongs thee,
>Sappho? For even if she flies she shall soon follow, and if she
>rejects gifts shall yet give, and if she loves not shall soon love,
>however loth." Come, I pray thee, now too, and release me from cruel
>cares; and all that my heart desires to accomplish, accomplish thou,
>and be thyself my ally.
In other words, what Willow is writing on Tara's back is an invocation
to the goddess Aphrodite to make someone fall in love with her,
however unwilling to do so that person might currently be. Not a love
poem but a love *spell*, in other words.
And Tara, in Willow's dream, seems quite happy and content with what's
going on.
An interesting insight into Willow's mindset there. And
foreshadowing, too? We'll have to wait and see.
(Of course, it might be that this has already been discussed to death
already; but it was a new realisation for me <g>)
Stephen
Michael Ikeda
news:020i72pfpa976s9dk...@4ax.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>review threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
>>(or "Cheese makes all the difference")
>>Writer: Joss Whedon
>>Director: Joss Whedon
>>- Since we haven't revealed the plot yet, there's room for a lot
>>of straight-up humor, like the cowboy in _Death Of A Salesman_
>>and so on. The part with Harmony trying to nibble on Giles, and
>>his reactions, may well be the highlight of the episode.
>
> That also says a lot about how Willow sees Giles (and Harmony
> for that matter).
>
There was what may have been an interesting little reference to the
play in the 5/1 episode of "How I Met Your Mother". In that
episode, Lily (Aly's character) crashes a prom to scout a band for
her and Marshall's wedding. Her hair in the flashback scenes (to
her prom and her first meeting with Marshall) reminded me of
Buffy's hair in the play scene.
>
>>So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the
>>episode is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the
>>guy with the cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness
>>with no hidden meaning, but I'm not totally confident even of
>>that. (Insert "central metaphor of the series" joke here.)
>
> Joss maintains to this day that the cheese doesn't mean
> anything, and, to this day, people don't believe him.
"But the name of Aragorn had put Gollum into a sullen mood. He had
all the injured air of a liar suspected when for once he has told
the truth, or part of it." :)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Michael Ikeda
news:1148768544.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 22: "Restless"
> (or "Cheese makes all the difference")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> I've watched "Restless" twice, trying to make sense of it.
> There's a lot to think about, and a lot that's still vague.
> Although things were clearer the second time, I still have to
> say that I'm not sure I get it, although I have a few ideas.
If you ever think you get it completely, you probably haven't
watched it closely enough... :)
> Some of it is probably supposed to make sense to those who've
> been paying close attention, some of it probably relates to
> plans for Season Five, and some of it has no deeper meaning than
> the surrealism.
Yes.
Or to put it another way, the dreams are mixes of three main
elements:
1) Insights into the characters and their relationships.
2) Foreshadowing.
3) Various stuff Joss put in to confuse us or to emphasize the
dreamlike quality of the episode.
>
> WILLOW
> - This one held together the easiest on first viewing, but it's
> not becoming less confusing now. There's a lot about names and
> hidden identities here. "Acting is not about behaving, it's
> about hiding. The audience wants to find you, strip you naked,
> and eat you alive, so hide." Willow's maybe afraid that having
> let others share her identity, that they'll discover what she's
> been keeping to herself, and be disgusted by... what, exactly?
> It's not witchcraft, it's not Tara... Constant references to
> her outfit as a "costume," underneath which she turns out to
> have her old hair and demeanor from a dorkier time. Has a
> childhood of mockery conditioned her to still see herself that
> way?
Yes. She's gotten better at hiding it this season, but that's how
she still sees herself. Among other things, we get a grand tour of
Willow's insecurities in this dream.
> - Since we haven't revealed the plot yet, there's room for a lot
> of straight-up humor, like the cowboy in _Death Of A Salesman_
> and so on. The part with Harmony trying to nibble on Giles, and
> his reactions, may well be the highlight of the episode.
Hey, if there's a cowboy in "Death of a Salesman", no reason there
shouldn't also be a vampire... :)
Then there's Buffy's rant about "men and their sales" which is
interesting coming from the subconscious of Willow, who usually has
an over-romantic view of relationships.
> XANDER
> - I actually didn't pick up on it the first time, but this
> dream is the most focused. It's downright obsessed with the
> idea of being outside of things, being left behind. I didn't
> count how many references there were to catching up, or others
> having gone ahead, but I'm guessing at least a dozen.
Then there are the sequences where others tell Xander vital
information in French...
Exp315
Interesting speculation. Certainly there's been a lot of discussion of
every part of Restless, but I think the "love spell behind Tara's back"
interpretation is a good one.
Anyone who's watching the entire series for the first time, like AoQ,
should come back and watch Restless again later. Because Restless is
almost at the mid-point of the series, it spends as much time
foreshadowing as it does looking backwards. Therefore it gets even more
interesting to watch it again later.
kenm47
EGK wrote:
> On 27 May 2006 16:30:40 -0700, "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >These reveiews have been very cathartic for me. With them, and some
> >hindsight, I can rewatch Restless and now say:
> >
> >Pfooey! Bah humbug! Pretentious childish crap! Filled an hour, but to
> >no real point.
> >
> >Some interesting moments, but pretty much an inside joke carried to an
> >extreme. An SNL skit that went on long after the laughter died away.
> >
> >Ah well.
> >
> >Ken (Brooklyn)
>
>
> It was definitely Buffy by way of Twin Peaks. Since I never cared for Twin
> Peaks (and I tried) I wasn't that in to this either. Still, I can
> understand people who do like that kind of thing and rate Restless highly.
> Just not my cup of tea.
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
I used to enjoy the mind games in this one. I think the UPN years
killed any joy I have left for this.
And no, I don't think that's a spoiler.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148768544.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >One-sentence summary: Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.
>
> Gung yvar jbhyq or dhvgr bhg bs cynpr va Erfgyrff, rira vs vg qbrf hf tbbq
> gb or erzvaqrq bs vg
>
That's why we're told that the clock is wrong.
One Bit Shy
news:1148768544.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
------
This post is not about Restless. Rather it's a final word about S4 inserted
here - because where else would it be inserted?
------
Looking at my episode rankings S4 would appear to be an extraordinarily good
season - perhaps the best. (Since I haven't gone through this exercise yet
with the remaining seasons, I can't say for certain. But my initial guess
is that this season will have the highest average ranking.) 9 Excellents.
10 Goods. 3 Decents. Nothing rated weak. 2 episodes (Hush & Restless) are
in my Series top 4 - a special group for which I think all deserve
consideration as #1. Two more (Superstar & Who Are You) at least challenge
for the top 10.
Aside from quality ratings, the season also has a lot of what I would call
special event episodes. Three semi-experimental shows (Hush, Superstar &
Restless) that deeply explore form as well as content - and do so rather
successfully, IMO. There are also the two big Oz shows to showcase the huge
transition in Willow's life. And the two Faith shows, which may have been
the most suspenseful of the season. (Who Are You also hovers on the edge of
experimental.)
Your ratings, of course, aren't nearly as high as mine. Aside from our
usual differences in tastes, I rather expected it. I don't know what will
happen with you in the future, but on an episode basis, no season has come
close to improving over time as much for me as has S4. I think more highly
of most episodes now, and several by very large amounts.
However, I think this is an illustration of the limits of looking at the
series just in terms of its episodes. The overall impression of the season
comes nowhere near such a high level IMO. A case where the whole is
decidedly less than the sum of its parts.
I spoke in the previous episode's discussion of the failings of the
Initiative arc. I won't repeat that now. Suffice to say that it lacked
sufficient emotional connection to our main characters and that too much of
a burden was placed on Riley alone to carry the season.
That's a pretty big failing considering what a large part of the season was
filled with Riley and the Initiative. (It also, I think, illustrates the
individual episode vs. season whole contrast. The big individual episodes
of that arc - The Initiative, The I In Team, & Primeval - were pretty
exciting barn burners in themselves. But the foundation around them was
kind of hollow.) Add to it how all those special event shows (plus a good
number of essentially stand alone MOTW type episodes) offer little to any
sense of coherency to the season.
The big unifying theme - the impact of post-high school life on the
friendship and unity of purpose of our core characters - is a worthy one.
Indeed, the whole slayer with friends concept is something explored and
tested from the series first episode to the last. But as presented, it's
hardly the makings of grand epic. And it's grand epic that we expect from
this series.
That's not to say that big things didn't happen this season. On the
contrary, there are huge changes. Just look at the cast. No Angel. No
Cordelia. No Oz. Now we've got Riley and Tara added. And Anya and Spike
as regulars. Huge change. (Incidentally, one thing that I've noticed about
watching AtS simultaneously is that the loss of Angel and Cordelia really is
muted psychologically. Interesting.) Much of it very exciting. Yet kind
of disruptive too. That kind of change (along with periodic visits by
Angel, Faith & Jonathon - even Oz at the end) gives a kind of unstable feel
to the show that dampens some the positive aspects.
But the biggest issue of all to me is where Buffy fits into the season. Oh,
she's constantly there. Fighting, loving, going to class. But what has
this year meant to her? She does have a new boyfriend. And that's nice.
Riley's a hunk. But has Riley changed her? Is she a different person for
the experience? If so, I must have missed that episode. Not that Buffy has
to change. But as a season long drama centered on Buffy as hero, somehow I
would expect to see more emotional resonance within her. What really
mattered to her this year? I'm not getting it. And without it, I can't see
this season as a truly great one - no matter how high individual episodes
may get ranked. My usual placement of S4 is 4 out of 7 - smack in the
middle.
--------------
There's one more aspect to this season I want to mention. Something making
it even more the oddball year.
Revelations speaks to a lot of things. It's just a cool episode without the
special meaning, but it also explains things about the characters to date
and events that have happened. The most enticing thing about it is how it
predicts - or at least suggests predictions for - the future. It's
prophetic with all of the hidden, misleading and self fulfilling aspects
that make prophecies so interesting and maddening.
But Revelations isn't the only prophetic moment in S4. There is a
significant amount of pretty major future season fore shadowing scattered
through the year. I don't just mean setting the stage. I'm talking
speeches laying out major themes and events far into the future. That kind
of thing. But there is a lot of stage setting going on too. So much so
that as future seasons play out, I think you will find increasingly how much
points back to this year.
One possible way of looking at S4 is that it's entire purpose may be to
realign Buffy's world in preparation for the next 3 years to come. That can
be really interesting in its way, but maybe not so great for the season by
itself.
(All of this can be debated, of course. And cannot be spelled out at this
time.)
Anyway. The net effect is that S4 is a bit weird. There won't be one quite
like it again.
I'm very much looking forward to your entry into Season Five. I've been
avoiding as much as possible rewatching anything from the later seasons
while we've been going through this exercise so that they'll be as fresh as
possible for me when we get to them. The controversy level will probably
rise. It usually does as a series progresses farther and farther from its
inception. But I think what is to come is pretty exciting. I hope it is
for you too.
Thank you for another fine season of BtVS discussion.
OBS
Elisi
somewhere that originally they wanted to use Jenny in Giles' dream, but
the actress was unavailable or something. It would have been very
poignant though - showing more clearly what Giles lost as a consequence
on being Buffy's Watcher.
Also I finally signed up for this group - you'll be getting to the
stuff I care about soon... (not that I don't like the early seasons.
But I wouldn't be obsessed with the show if it had ended after 3
seasons!)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Are you still using Google groups? There are better newsreaders out there.
Espen Schjønberg
> Elisi wrote:
>
>>[snippety]
>
> Are you still using Google groups? There are better newsreaders out there.
Google groups -that's not a newsreader at all!
--
Espen
MBangel10 (Melissa)
John Briggs
>
> That would be one Joseph (legally changed to 'Joss') Whedon.
> Christophe Beck did the arrangement, and is the guy playing the piano
> behind Giles (the rest of the group is Four Star Mary, the real band
> that played Oz's group Dingoes Ate My Baby).
Are you sure that Joseph Hill Whedon 'legally' changed his name to Joss?
--
John Briggs
Kevin
Elisi wrote:
> Don't have a lot to say about this one. But I remember reading
> somewhere that originally they wanted to use Jenny in Giles' dream, but
> the actress was unavailable or something. It would have been very
> poignant though - showing more clearly what Giles lost as a consequence
> on being Buffy's Watcher.
That's unfortunate... Jenny really ought to be in his dream. I was
similarly surprised that neither Angel nor Faith have any part in
Restless. Angel can't possibly be absent from Buffy's dreamworld at
this point, even after the recent events that showed them continuing to
move off in their separate directions. I can't recall what Joss has
said about his plans for the episode, and how they might have changed.
--Kevin
John Briggs
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
>>> Moving the opening to before the teaser is a good way to get our
>>> attention, even if it made me stop to go through the DVD chapter
>>> selection menu to make sure we weren't skipping a scene.
>>
>> Besides being attention getting, Whedon didn't want to do the
>> guest-star credits over the dream sequence. Once that started he
>> didn't want distractions (or rather, only the distractions he
>> deliberately put in).
>
> Well, that's one way to do it. For reasons I'm not quite clear on,
> the STTNG episode "Descent" did the act-one credits over the teaser,
> but still positioned it normally before the main titles.
That's probably what Joss intended, but they wouldn't let him do it.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
Including the fact that it was actually nothing to do with Joss, but was the
work of the make-up designer? [The script just says: "Tara lies naked under
the covers, her back exposed and covered in fine writing; Willow dips her
pen and continues the text to the small of Tara's back."] (Even academics
are baffled by there being no proper word division in the poem, but that was
how things were written in those days. Mind you, it probably shouldn't be
all in capitals!)
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
Joss says that he wrote it by free association, so any foreshadowing is
likely to have come from his subconscious rather than being deliberate :-)
--
John Briggs
Elisi
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> mud and such, seem foreign and confusing. Then when things get
her weapons dont turn into mud
her weapons are mud
the mud is her connection to the primal
the strength and violence she is capable of
it is also a mask or cover
so that what is buffy summers is submerged
and the primitive surface shows up
as buffy loses her identity in the slayer
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Arbitrar Of Quality
That's a good point. Yeah, Jenny should have been there, and I'd have
included Faith (Buffy does mention her, though, so she's on people's
minds at least). I'm torn on Angel; it'd have been nice and made sense
to see him, but it's also kinda important to the two series to end
their first concurrent season with non-crossover finales.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> This post is not about Restless. Rather it's a final word about S4 inserted
> here - because where else would it be inserted?
A new thread?
> Looking at my episode rankings S4 would appear to be an extraordinarily good
> season - perhaps the best.
> However, I think this is an illustration of the limits of looking at the
> series just in terms of its episodes. The overall impression of the season
> comes nowhere near such a high level IMO. A case where the whole is
> decidedly less than the sum of its parts.
>
> I spoke in the previous episode's discussion of the failings of the
> Initiative arc. I won't repeat that now. Suffice to say that it lacked
> sufficient emotional connection to our main characters and that too much of
> a burden was placed on Riley alone to carry the season.
>
> That's a pretty big failing considering what a large part of the season was
> filled with Riley and the Initiative. (It also, I think, illustrates the
> individual episode vs. season whole contrast. The big individual episodes
> of that arc - The Initiative, The I In Team, & Primeval - were pretty
> exciting barn burners in themselves. But the foundation around them was
> kind of hollow.) Add to it how all those special event shows (plus a good
> number of essentially stand alone MOTW type episodes) offer little to any
> sense of coherency to the season.
And you seem to be one of the bigger fans of the Initiative arc. Even
the "big" ones don't excite me. "The I In Team" is the only
Initiative-centric show I consider anywhere near the same level as S4's
better non-Initiative moments. S4 is definitely a season of
standalones (yes, they're all connected, it's just shorthand): I know
which episodes will stick with me, and they're stuff like the Willow/Oz
ones (especially), "Pangs," "Hush," "Restless," and the Faith duology.
Still, if the episodes were as consistently awesome in my opinion as
they were in yours, I think I'd feel great about the year, arc issues
or not.
> The big unifying theme - the impact of post-high school life on the
> friendship and unity of purpose of our core characters - is a worthy one.
> Indeed, the whole slayer with friends concept is something explored and
> tested from the series first episode to the last. But as presented, it's
> hardly the makings of grand epic. And it's grand epic that we expect from
> this series.
My theory (pure speculation, which I think others have already
suggested) is that it was supposed to be a grand epic of sorts,
culminating in TYF/Prim, but things went badly askew as the season
proceeded in a more relaxed/natural fashion but the writers tried to
force the big drama anyway.
> Revelations speaks to a lot of things. It's just a cool episode without the
> special meaning, but it also explains things about the characters to date
> and events that have happened.
Do you mean "Restless?"
> I'm very much looking forward to your entry into Season Five. I've been
> avoiding as much as possible rewatching anything from the later seasons
> while we've been going through this exercise so that they'll be as fresh as
> possible for me when we get to them. The controversy level will probably
> rise. It usually does as a series progresses farther and farther from its
> inception. But I think what is to come is pretty exciting. I hope it is
> for you too.
>
> Thank you for another fine season of BtVS discussion.
Thanks for helping make it worthwhile. Looking forward to next year.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> Still, if the episodes were as consistently awesome in my opinion as
> they were in yours, I think I'd feel great about the year, arc issues
> or not.
Fourth best season is actually very good. Fifth best is S2 by my standards,
which wasn't exactly a terrible experience. Two of the three in front of it
you haven't gotten to yet.
>> Revelations speaks to a lot of things....
>
> Do you mean "Restless?"
It starts with Re... It's not like I wasn't trying. That's worth
something, isn't it?
OBS
Shloonktapooxis
just as entertaining. I find the TWOPers and TWOP recaps extremely
hilarious. Hardly ever agree with a thing they say, which makes it all
the more amusing.
Mel
Elisi wrote:
> Don't have a lot to say about this one. But I remember reading
> somewhere that originally they wanted to use Jenny in Giles' dream, but
> the actress was unavailable or something. It would have been very
> poignant though - showing more clearly what Giles lost as a consequence
> on being Buffy's Watcher.
That would be an interesting spin since it's very likely he would never
have met Jenny had he not been Buffy's Watcher.
>
> Also I finally signed up for this group - you'll be getting to the
> stuff I care about soon... (not that I don't like the early seasons.
> But I wouldn't be obsessed with the show if it had ended after 3
> seasons!)
>
Welcome to the fun!
Mel
Stephen Tempest
>Including the fact that it was actually nothing to do with Joss, but was the
>work of the make-up designer?
Do we actually know that? I mean, whoever chose one of Sappho's poems
as the writing was obviously thinking about the symbolism... so the
only question is whether Joss said to the make-up people "This is what
I want you to use" or they said to him "This is the design we propose,
what do you think?" We do know, from commentaries, that the props
people always showed their creations to the writers to make sure they
were what they had in mind.
And I'm guessing they did check the translation of the text, if only
to make sure it didn't spell out something obscene in Greek...
Stephen
cry...@panix.com
> Looking at my episode rankings S4 would appear to be an
> extraordinarily good season - perhaps the best. However, I
> think this is an illustration of the limits of looking at the
> series just in terms of its episodes. The overall impression
> of the season comes nowhere near such a high level IMO. A case
> where the whole is decidedly less than the sum of its parts.
I don't post enough for most people to know my opinions, but I've
said at times that S6 and S4 are my favorites (which seems to go
against the popular opinion here).
But that wasn't true on first viewing. I didn't like season 4
much at all the first time I watched it, despite the strong
individual episodes, because of exactly this. The Initiative arc
wasn't so great, and the season as a whole doesn't hold up too
well. But it's just got too many great episodes, like Superstar,
Restless, Hush, This Year's Girl, Who are you?, Something Blue,
and others. (Others that no one else seems to like, like Beer Bad
and Living Conditions.) So on my third or fourth time through the
series, it became my second favorite season, after six.
It probably helps that I, unlike most people, like Riley.
> I'm very much looking forward to [AOQ's] entry into Season Five.
> I've been avoiding as much as possible rewatching anything from
> the later seasons while we've been going through this exercise
> so that they'll be as fresh as possible for me when we get to
> them.
I might be posting more if I'd managed to keep myself to that
pace. I'd have been patient enough, but my boyfriend Mike and I
were watching along with AOQ, and once Mike got really hooked, we
started watching something like an episode a night.
It's hard to comment on things in the context of what we've seen
so far, rather than the context of the whole series! I'm rather
impressed that so many people here manage to do so.
--
-Crystal
Espen Schjønberg
OK. TWOP?
Is it possible not to throw in ETLAs just like that?
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
Television Without Pity, possibly the most up its own arse site on the
web.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
John Briggs
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>> Including the fact that it was actually nothing to do with Joss, but
>> was the work of the make-up designer?
>
> Do we actually know that?
Yes, we actually know that.
> I mean, whoever chose one of Sappho's poems as the writing was obviously
> thinking about the symbolism...
You reckon?
:-)
> so the only question is whether Joss said to the make-up people "This is
> what I want you to use"
They worked from the script. It's a reference to Peter Greenaway's "Pillow
Book", of course.
> or they said to him "This is the design we propose,
> what do you think?" We do know, from commentaries, that the props
> people always showed their creations to the writers to make sure they
> were what they had in mind.
They are usually shown to directors, rather than writers.
> And I'm guessing they did check the translation of the text, if only
> to make sure it didn't spell out something obscene in Greek...
It was the text that was chosen first, then the Greek had to be found.
--
John Briggs
(Harmony) Watcher
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
> > >Moving the opening to before the teaser is a good way to get our
> > >attention, even if it made me stop to go through the DVD chapter
> > >selection menu to make sure we weren't skipping a scene.
> >
> > Besides being attention getting, Whedon didn't want to do the guest-star
> > credits over the dream sequence. Once that started he didn't want
> > distractions (or rather, only the distractions he deliberately put in).
>
> Well, that's one way to do it. For reasons I'm not quite clear on, the
> STTNG episode "Descent" did the act-one credits over the teaser, but
> still positioned it normally before the main titles.
>
> > warehous/soundstage. There's a lot of 'in-one' continous shots
following
> > him from set to set. And he always ends up back in that damned
basement.
> > That's the one thing I took away from Xander's dream, he has to move out
> > of that damned basement.
>
> That's not the way out.
>
> > One of the things I worked out early, is that, among other things, the
> > dreams are showing us the character's perceptions, not only of
themselves,
> > but of others. We see that Willow's view of Giles in the Death of a
> > Salesman bit, and also her view of the whole Buffy/Riley thing (and it
> > isn't terribly flattering). In the end, we see that she thinks that if
> > the others ever figure out that she's still mousy little nerd-Willow,
they
> > will discount and laugh at her, she won't have value to them. And she
> > Must have value to them (that was the lesson in Earshot).
> >
> > In the scene with Anya doing stand-up in the background, we see how
Giles
> > sees her (very marginally, and primarily as a clown and an annoyance).
The
> > Spike scenes are how Giles sees Spike, a poseur and a peacock. Also,
pick
> > up the way that Olivia is marginalized out of his life. I tended to
take
> > that as his view of how he doesn't really have a life outside of being
> > Buffy's Watcher.
>
> All right, that makes sense.
>
> > >So those are a few thoughts. Just to show how confusing the episode
> > >is, I feel like I should take Buffy at her word that the guy with the
> > >cheese really is just a random bit of wackiness with no hidden meaning,
> > >but I'm not totally confident even of that. (Insert "central
> > >metaphor of the series" joke here.)
> >
> > Joss maintains to this day that the cheese doesn't mean anything, and,
to
> > this day, people don't believe him.
>
> Well, I think I've got plenty non-cheese-related to think about.
> Besides, if you treat the cheese as purely a joke (with the punchline
> being Buffy's final line), it's a pretty funny one.
>
>
Remember cheese and Mr. Gordo are the only ways to Buffy's heart? :)
==Harmony Watcher==
Mike Zeares
vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> Television Without Pity, possibly the most up its own arse site on the
> web.
They really aren't kidding about the "without pity" thing. One of the
Veronica Mars staff said they're like a tidal wave of love tempered by
a thousand papercuts, which twoppers agreed was a pefect description
(lots of love between twop and VM -- there have been blatant shout-outs
on the show. Not to mention the plane towing the "renew Veronica Mars"
banner over L.A.). They're not kidding about their rules either. But
it's mostly some of the recappers who are up their own ass. Some of
the best discussion I've ever seen has been on TWOP. And their Buffy
filk thread was amazing.
-- Mike Zeares, who will miss the TWOP Charmed recaps. That was some
quality hate.
peachy ashie passion
> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>
>
>> I believe he said explicitly that she's a fiancee and he's calling
>>her Mrs. anyway. I believe.
>
>
> Yes. We're not getting married anytime soon, but I fell in love with
> the idea of calling her "Mrs. Quality."
>
>
>> It's a better story with the polygamy though.
>
>
> Well...
>
> -AOQ
>
Yeah yeah, live your life how you want.
But in MY head you are having lots of fun with the polygamy.
vague disclaimer
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> >
> > Television Without Pity, possibly the most up its own arse site on the
> > web.
>
> They really aren't kidding about the "without pity" thing.
Yeah, my problem is that it seems to be degenerating into Television
Without Thought....
> One of the
> Veronica Mars staff said they're like a tidal wave of love tempered by
> a thousand papercuts, which twoppers agreed was a pefect description
> (lots of love between twop and VM -- there have been blatant shout-outs
> on the show. Not to mention the plane towing the "renew Veronica Mars"
> banner over L.A.).
...indeed, although it is also a rather good case in point. A couple of
the recaps for VM seemed to have been written by someone who wasn't
actually paying attention to the episode (and the laugh-out-loud funny
ones were by people other than the regular).
> They're not kidding about their rules either. But
> it's mostly some of the recappers who are up their own ass.
And these two together do not a happy combo make. It has the feel of a
site that is starting to believe its own publicity. Never a good state
to be in.
> Some of
> the best discussion I've ever seen has been on TWOP.
True. But it seems to be losing the judgement of when snark strays into
unthinking negativity (va fubeg, gurer ner gvzrf jura vg srryf gbb zhpu
yvxr guvf cynpr jura F6 vf ba gur ntraqn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <1148906817.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > vague disclaimer wrote:
> > >
> > > Television Without Pity, possibly the most up its own arse site on the
> > > web.
> >
> > They really aren't kidding about the "without pity" thing.
>
> Yeah, my problem is that it seems to be degenerating into Television
> Without Thought....
television without a thought?
Patrick MM
>
> It's continuing mystery is one of its great attributes. Today it would be
> the #4 episode in the series to me. Such a high ranking seems to me to be
> fairly typical among long time fans. I've seen some rank it #1. They
> may be right.
>
It's #1 for me and has been from the very first viewing. I had heard that
the season four finale was unusual, but I wasn't prepared for what hit. The
episode has a lot of surrealism, but to call it pretentious or pointless is
to miss the fact that this episode functions as a summation of the
characters' journies over the first four years of the season, and also gives
us an important insight into how they view themselves.
By immersing the viewer in a totally subjective environment, we can really
understand the way that the characters perceive themselves and the world
around them. If I have any criticism of the episode, it's the fact that the
conflict with the first slayer is unneccessary and seems wedged in just to
give the episode a fight scene.
But, that doesn't stop this from being a confounding and thought provoking
episode.
patrick
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
Patrick MM
news:Xns97D0E14D0B561op...@127.0.0.1...
> MBangel10 (Melissa) (mban...@comcast.net) wrote:
>
>> The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But
>> now it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the
>> most interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
>
> On the whole, for surrealism, I think it succeeds better than the
> series finale to The Prisoner.
>
Only the series finale of Twin Peaks tops this ep in terms of TV surrealism
for me. And the red curtains here certainly seem like a deliberate nod to
Lynch, even though I believe Joss denies it in the commentary.
Patrick MM
>
> Oh, she's constantly there. Fighting, loving, going to class. But what
> has this year meant to her? She does have a new boyfriend. And that's
> nice. Riley's a hunk. But has Riley changed her? Is she a different
> person for the experience? If so, I must have missed that episode. Not
> that Buffy has to change. But as a season long drama centered on Buffy as
> hero, somehow I would expect to see more emotional resonance within her.
> What really mattered to her this year? I'm not getting it. And without
> it, I can't see this season as a truly great one - no matter how high
> individual episodes may get ranked. My usual placement of S4 is 4 out of
> 7 - smack in the middle.
>
Season four was notable for the fact that every character except for Buffy
had their most interesting storylines yet. The two big Oz episodes gave him
more to do than all of years two and three, and the Tara stuff was
incredible for Willow. Anya and Spike are my favorite characters on the show
and here they finally became regulars, making every scene they're in
exciting to watch. Xander had some odd stuff, but on the whole, he had a
really interesting arc, the fact that he no longer had any particular reason
to be on the show mirrored in the fact that he no longer had a place in
Buffy's life.
Those storylines were all fantastic, but this was easily Buffy's weakest
season, and that's primarily because of Riley. He sucked the energy out of
everything he was in, and there was no interest in watching him and Buffy
together. Riley was the sort of stable guy that would likely produce a
healthy relationship, but that's not interesting on a TV show. There's no
conflict in the Buffy/Riley relationship, no reason for them not to be
together, and Riley is such a boring character that it's no fun watching
them together.
Plus, the initiative was rather nonsensical. There were some good moments in
season four, and it's crucial as the transition year to the second part of
the show, but it took a while for the writers to realize that using the same
metaphor driven storytelling they used in the high school years wouldn't
work in college. Once they got beyond that, the show became really great.
Don Sample
"Patrick MM" <patrick...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns97D0E14D0B561op...@127.0.0.1...
> > MBangel10 (Melissa) (mban...@comcast.net) wrote:
> >
> >> The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But
> >> now it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the
> >> most interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
> >
> > On the whole, for surrealism, I think it succeeds better than the
> > series finale to The Prisoner.
> >
>
> Only the series finale of Twin Peaks tops this ep in terms of TV surrealism
> for me. And the red curtains here certainly seem like a deliberate nod to
> Lynch, even though I believe Joss denies it in the commentary.
>
> patrick
The symbolism of red curtains is as old as cigars and tunnels.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
George W Harris
<patrick...@verizon.net> wrote:
:"Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:Xns97D0E14D0B561op...@127.0.0.1...
:> MBangel10 (Melissa) (mban...@comcast.net) wrote:
:>
:>> The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But
:>> now it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the
:>> most interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
:>
:> On the whole, for surrealism, I think it succeeds better than the
:> series finale to The Prisoner.
:>
:
:Only the series finale of Twin Peaks tops this ep in terms of TV surrealism
:for me. And the red curtains here certainly seem like a deliberate nod to
:Lynch, even though I believe Joss denies it in the commentary.
I think it's far more likely that Lynch and Whedon
both used red curtains for the obvious symbolism.
:patrick
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
(Harmony) Watcher
news:tntu72pbhcurbnhdl...@4ax.com...
> On 1 Jun 2006 23:32:22 +0200, "Patrick MM"
> <patrick...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> :"Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> :news:Xns97D0E14D0B561op...@127.0.0.1...
> :> MBangel10 (Melissa) (mban...@comcast.net) wrote:
> :>
> :>> The first time I watched Restless, I was left wondering 'WTF'? But
> :>> now it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one of the
> :>> most interesting episodes of any TV show, ever.
> :>
> :> On the whole, for surrealism, I think it succeeds better than the
> :> series finale to The Prisoner.
> :>
> :
> :Only the series finale of Twin Peaks tops this ep in terms of TV
surrealism
> :for me. And the red curtains here certainly seem like a deliberate nod to
> :Lynch, even though I believe Joss denies it in the commentary.
>
> I think it's far more likely that Lynch and Whedon
> both used red curtains for the obvious symbolism.
>
>
And on the subject of symbolism, I sometimes wonder if non-aficionados of
Buffy will laugh at us for seeing so much symbolism in "Restless" in a way
similar to me laughing at those esteemed art historians when someone asked
me what I saw in this painting the first time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arnolfini_Portrait. I think I said "I saw
an unhappy pregnant woman!" Is symbolism mostly a pretentiously cultivated
thingie?
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Season four was notable for the fact that every character except for Buffy
> had their most interesting storylines yet. The two big Oz episodes gave him
> more to do than all of years two and three, and the Tara stuff was
> incredible for Willow. Anya and Spike are my favorite characters on the show
> and here they finally became regulars, making every scene they're in
> exciting to watch. Xander had some odd stuff, but on the whole, he had a
> really interesting arc, the fact that he no longer had any particular reason
> to be on the show mirrored in the fact that he no longer had a place in
> Buffy's life.
[Shrug.] Disagreed on Xander, who seemed pretty useless this year. I
didn't see an arc so much as a lot of inconsistetly-written comic
relief. The version of the character from "The Freshman" would've been
more interesting to have seen throughout the arc. So I'd say it was a
bad year for him on a writing level, even despite Anya. Good year for
both Giles and Willow, though.
-AOQ
sienamystic
As I make my way through the seasons (got to the first disc of Angel S2
on Friday, and will start Buffy S5 tomorrow), I've been reading the
boards there as well as the recaps. The boards are great, I think -
there's a lot of meaningful discussion, and people stay civilized. On
the other hand, I'm really not appreciating the recaps at all. The
recapper for Angel seems to feel the need to mention how vomit-inducing
the sight of a shirtless David Boreanz is every other page (which, ok -
if you don't think he's good looking, fine. But after the first twelve
times you say it, you don't need to continue beating it into the
ground, ok?) As for the Buffy ones, I think the site didn't start
recapping the show until it was already starting to show signs of
decline, and the fan base was starting to get a little embittered. The
recaps for the first three seasons are full of little digs about how
cool things are *now* but just you wait - later on things start to
suck! SUCK!
As for Restless, the whole episode really hit me where I live. I'm a
sucker for dream sequences and surrealism anyway, so I just fell into
it wholeheartedly.
Siena
Espen Schjønberg
>[...twop] As for the Buffy ones, I think the site didn't start
> recapping the show until it was already starting to show signs of
> decline, and the fan base was starting to get a little embittered. The
> recaps for the first three seasons are full of little digs about how
> cool things are *now* but just you wait - later on things start to
> suck! SUCK!
Yeah, the early recaps are actually rather spoilerish.
I don't bother to dig up examples .Well, OK. Dig, dig.
Notice 1: very low-spoilerish references to later episodes, at least as
late as Superstar, in the first recap.
Notice 2: Angel. "Angel isn't even scripted as a vampire at this point".
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
One Bit Shy
news:447f5...@x-privat.org...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
>>
>> It's continuing mystery is one of its great attributes. Today it would
>> be the #4 episode in the series to me. Such a high ranking seems to me
>> to be fairly typical among long time fans. I've seen some rank it #1.
>> They may be right.
>>
>
> It's #1 for me and has been from the very first viewing. I had heard that
> the season four finale was unusual, but I wasn't prepared for what hit.
> The episode has a lot of surrealism, but to call it pretentious or
> pointless is to miss the fact that this episode functions as a summation
> of the characters' journies over the first four years of the season, and
> also gives us an important insight into how they view themselves.
>
> By immersing the viewer in a totally subjective environment, we can really
> understand the way that the characters perceive themselves and the world
> around them. If I have any criticism of the episode, it's the fact that
> the conflict with the first slayer is unneccessary and seems wedged in
> just to give the episode a fight scene.
I can't agree with that. (Though I can with the rest.) The first slayer
confrontation goes to the core of Buffy's inner turmoil. She's always
struggled to integrate her slayer self into the whole of her - refuses to be
consumed by that slayer element.
"You're *not* the source of me."
Obviously the first slayer *is* the source of the slayer essence, so Buffy
must mean she has other sources that she refuses to let go of. That's what
makes Buffy different - the rebel slayer. She has determined to somehow
transcend the typical slayer being. But that slayer essence is jealous of
her dominant place and resists.
The first slayer also serves the function of continuing something BtVS makes
sure happens in all of its "special" episodes. They never stand completely
alone, apart from the BtVS world. They always tie into the ongoing story.
Even Superstar advanced the ongoing plot and was explained by a spell.
Restless is no exception. The first slayer is essentially the product of
the Primeval spell - the consequence as it were. And her appearance here
has the potential for opening doors to Buffy's future as well.
OBS
One Bit Shy
Xander had a pretty quiet year. Not exactly the dramatic changes that
Willow went through. Mostly, I would say, it just positions him into a
place and state of mind. His parents basement. The parade of lousy jobs.
Hanging out with Giles and not doing much. Largely ignored by everyone.
Anya really is a rather big deal though. And, more subtly, his personality
has toned down a lot. Especially a marked increase in patience. Not so
much that he's not still Xander. But he's not high school Xander.
OBS
Patrick MM
>
> And on the subject of symbolism, I sometimes wonder if non-aficionados of
> Buffy will laugh at us for seeing so much symbolism in "Restless" in a way
> similar to me laughing at those esteemed art historians when someone asked
> me what I saw in this painting the first time:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arnolfini_Portrait. I think I said "I saw
> an unhappy pregnant woman!" Is symbolism mostly a pretentiously cultivated
> thingie?
>
I think there's a huge difference in finding symbolism in one image and
finding it in a 45 minute piece of cinema that has 4 seasons of background
material behind it. If we had seen the lives of pregnant woman and her
husband up to that point, then the symbolism is valid. As it is, the claims
of symbolism in that painting are more about what the viewer brings to it
than what's actually there.
In the case of Restless, there's certainly some viewer extrapolation, but
Joss clearly meant the work to be read on a metaphorical level. I would
argue TV is actually the best medium for symbolic abstract storytelling,
such as Restless, the Twin Peaks finale or The Sopranos' 'Test Dream'
because we are so familiar with the characters, we bring the background of
this world to the dream and experience in much the same way that the
characters themselves do.
That's also why symbolism and analysis of cinema and television is much more
fruitful than it is for painting.
Patrick MM
> didn't see an arc so much as a lot of inconsistetly-written comic
> relief. The version of the character from "The Freshman" would've been
> more interesting to have seen throughout the arc. So I'd say it was a
> bad year for him on a writing level, even despite Anya. Good year for
> both Giles and Willow, though.
>
Anya certainly contributed to him having a great year, but I also admire the
choice to have Xander struggle and not find his place. I know a bunch of
people who've been in similar situations, with their friends going off to
college, leaving them behind in an awkward limbo. They could have easily had
Xander either go to UC Sunnydale or become a janitor or something there, but
choosing to isolate him was a unique and successful choice. However, it is
true that the succession of jobs got a bit ridiculous at times.
Patrick MM
>>
>> really understand the way that the characters perceive themselves and the
>> world around them. If I have any criticism of the episode, it's the fact
>> that the conflict with the first slayer is unneccessary and seems wedged
>> in just to give the episode a fight scene.
>
> I can't agree with that. (Though I can with the rest.) The first slayer
> confrontation goes to the core of Buffy's inner turmoil. She's always
> struggled to integrate her slayer self into the whole of her - refuses to
> be consumed by that slayer element.
>
<snip>
I'd agree with all your points, it's just that, for me, the need to focus on
the slayer made it feel like the rest of the characters were subjugated to
Buffy, and I hate the moment where she's able to defeat it where all her
friends fail.
At this point in the series, I didn't particularly like Buffy, she was
pretty together, and because she didn't have any major emotional obstacles,
there was no particular satisfaction in watching her defeat evil. It's the
Han Solo/Luke Skywalker thing, it's a lot more fun to watch the reluctant
hero get dragged in to things than to watch the chosen one defeat evil.
But, I can certainly see why Joss included the first slayer stuff, and it
does have important ramifications with stuff that happens way down the line.
Arbitrar Of Quality
The idea was better than the execution for me. Also, my brain doesn't
operate at the level of meta-ness where I'm able to see not doing much
of interest with a main character all year as a writing strength. You
can do interesting things without the character necessarily doing
interesting things, is what I'm saying.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> You
> can do interesting things without the character necessarily doing
> interesting things, is what I'm saying.
As Giles proves.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I'd agree with all your points, it's just that, for me, the need to focus on
> the slayer made it feel like the rest of the characters were subjugated to
> Buffy, and I hate the moment where she's able to defeat it where all her
> friends fail.
The other characters are always subjugated to Buffy, really. It's her
show. I agree that it didn't feel good seeing the others so easily
defeated, even after Giles starts putting everything together, and then
have Buffy go ahead and win on her own. But maybe that's the point;
it's supposed to disturb us.
> At this point in the series, I didn't particularly like Buffy, she was
> pretty together, and because she didn't have any major emotional obstacles,
> there was no particular satisfaction in watching her defeat evil.
I think we've been watching different shows.
-AOQ
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:Patrick MM wrote:
:
:> I'd agree with all your points, it's just that, for me, the need to focus on
:> the slayer made it feel like the rest of the characters were subjugated to
:> Buffy, and I hate the moment where she's able to defeat it where all her
:> friends fail.
:
:The other characters are always subjugated to Buffy, really. It's her
:show. I agree that it didn't feel good seeing the others so easily
:defeated, even after Giles starts putting everything together, and then
:have Buffy go ahead and win on her own. But maybe that's the point;
:it's supposed to disturb us.
I thought it had a sort of Groundhog Day vibe;
each one learned a little more about it from the others'
experiences somehow, until finally Giles put enough
together for Buffy to prevail.
:
:-AOQ
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Patrick MM wrote:
>
> > I'd agree with all your points, it's just that, for me, the need to focus on
> > the slayer made it feel like the rest of the characters were subjugated to
> > Buffy, and I hate the moment where she's able to defeat it where all her
> > friends fail.
>
> The other characters are always subjugated to Buffy, really. It's her
> show. I agree that it didn't feel good seeing the others so easily
> defeated, even after Giles starts putting everything together, and then
> have Buffy go ahead and win on her own. But maybe that's the point;
> it's supposed to disturb us.
she is accused of being self involved
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
assuming youve watched one episode past your last review
then
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
the show is all about ripper giles
i suppose its big time spoilers if you really havent heard about it already
but it turns out in the last episode the entire series
has been a series of dreams and nightmares of rupert giles
which all took place in one night
as he wrestles with a decision he will execute the next morning
in the last episode rupert wakes up
and storms into the watcher council
where he resigns as a matter of principle
then when he retuyrns to his flat
hes knocked out with gas through the door keyhole
and hes whisked off to a place known only as the village of the damned
(which has an only uncanny resemblance to smalltownland of disneyworld)
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1149466396.3...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>> You
>>> can do interesting things without the character necessarily doing
>>> interesting things, is what I'm saying.
>> As Giles proves.
>
> the show is all about ripper giles
>
> i suppose its big time spoilers if you really havent heard about it already
> but it turns out in the last episode the entire series
AAAAAUUGGGHHH!!! And I was just about to watch that! No! <sob!>
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
One Bit Shy
That's fair. It could have been fun to have Giles solve a puzzle like that
and win the day. But that's not where Joss was going this day.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > In article <1149466396.3...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >>> You
> >>> can do interesting things without the character necessarily doing
> >>> interesting things, is what I'm saying.
> >> As Giles proves.
> >
> > the show is all about ripper giles
> >
> > i suppose its big time spoilers if you really havent heard about it already
> > but it turns out in the last episode the entire series
>
> AAAAAUUGGGHHH!!! And I was just about to watch that! No! <sob!>
rosebud
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <jPqdnS7C098...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>> In article <1149466396.3...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>> You
>>>>> can do interesting things without the character necessarily doing
>>>>> interesting things, is what I'm saying.
>>>> As Giles proves.
>>> the show is all about ripper giles
>>>
>>> i suppose its big time spoilers if you really havent heard about it already
>>> but it turns out in the last episode the entire series
>> AAAAAUUGGGHHH!!! And I was just about to watch that! No! <sob!>
>
> rosebud
>
<whimper>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I thought it had a sort of Groundhog Day vibe;
> each one learned a little more about it from the others'
> experiences somehow, until finally Giles put enough
> together for Buffy to prevail.
I wondered about that, but I don't think there's any indication that
Giles was able to help Buffy at all.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1149479582.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I didn't get that impression either. Perhaps that's indirectly showing the
situation Giles was in - or feared he was in. Where he sees his purpose as
helping Buffy, but in reality he's not helping and she doesn't need it.
OBS
Horace LaBadie
"Patrick MM" <patrick...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I think there's a huge difference in finding symbolism in one image and
> finding it in a 45 minute piece of cinema that has 4 seasons of background
> material behind it. If we had seen the lives of pregnant woman and her
> husband up to that point, then the symbolism is valid. As it is, the claims
> of symbolism in that painting are more about what the viewer brings to it
> than what's actually there.
For contemporaries of the couple in the painting, the symbolism would
have been obvious and, indeed, probably dictated by the commission. For
people living centuries later and outside the tradition, it takes a
Sister Wendy to explain what it means.
HWL