AOQ Review 2-7: "Lie To Me"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
(or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
That's it for me. I'm through.
When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
suppose we have to start somewhere.
Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
(wait for it... )
(wait for it...)
Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two. Thus the
opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
tuned, dear viewers!
Back in school, it's time to re-address the two complaints that
appear in pretty much every AOQ review, so let's get them over with
quickly:
1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
anything other than an idiot? Extra credit if you work in a comparison
to the Cordelia-is-annoying-but-not-necessarily-stupid Shylock scene
from OOM/S.
2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
(It's not as bad in this episode as it's been in the past, but
it's there.) If you were Buffy in this situation, would you tolerate
this guy who hasn't made it a secret that he's not over you trying
to sabotage every potential relationship you might get into? Also -
granted, some time has passed since "Prophecy Girl," but if you
were Xander, would you be able to go back to your pre-painful-rejection
ways so easily?
We soon meet Billy Fordham, Buffy's old friend, and a character
highly likely to be up to no good. They have a few mannerisms like
addressing each other by last name that help us at least accept the
old-friends premise. Otherwise, we don't really get a sense of how
the two of them click. Of course, he's a good-looking virile guy and
she's having issues with Angel; that's proven to be enough to get
our Slayer's attention all year.
I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
we wouldn't care about them anyway?
Since the beginning of the series, the character of Angel has been
alternately intriguing and confusing. I valued his role in the plots,
but I didn't particularly like him and I didn't really know why. I
think I may remember "Lie To Me" as the episode where I finally
"got" Angel. He's still underplayed, but there's a lot of
emotion and nuance underneath the mostly-dead-panning. Watch the way
he's a little more gentle when visiting Willow in her room, and his
real concern for Buffy in that scene. Or the very slightly pouty way
he asks Xander to stop calling him "Dead Boy."
There are two really outstanding sequences in this show. The first of
them is the talk between Buffy and Angel. Both of them come in ready
to deal with sharing the truth; whatever else might happen, it's
better in the long run. The timing is perfect as Angel tells his
story, Buffy absorbs it, acknowledges that this is what she'd asked
for, and with trust thus established, Angel is able to give her the
warning about Ford. Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
following that.)
Another general comment before we go on to cool sequence #2: notice how
well Buffy deals with having both Angel and Ford acting all suspicious
and/or lying to her. No living in denial. No "you're just
jealous" to the people who try to warn her. Not even the luxury of
lashing out too hard at her friends for investigating Ford behind her
back, since they were trying to look out for her, and it did indeed
help.
The other excellent scene is the confrontation at the end. It's been
set up so that Buffy has rather recklessly gotten herself into a bad
situation (I feel like a certain perceptive character may have
mentioned that impatience was a flaw of hers...). She's genuinely
alone and against insurmountable odds; she doesn't usually get into
real danger of this caliber. So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
runs with it. Good stuff.
Points for restraint - Ford's ultimate fate is somewhat obvious, so
rather than playing it for suspense, the show has Buffy basically tell
the viewer what's going to happen. The final scene with Giles is
good but not great. The generalities make sense - these two
characters should be having this conversation, and Buffy should still
(as in "Prophecy Girl" and others) be allegorically like every
older kid who still kinda expects life to be fair. The actual
dialogue, though, simply isn't as poignant as it thinks it is. The
very, very end is quite nice, at least, starting with Buffy saying the
title phrase.
A few other points:
1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
[These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
2) Clunky Expository Dialogue Of The Week Award goes to the kid at the
beginning, explaining to no one in particular that his mom is always
late.
3) Spike, Dru, and the bird was strangely sad, in a way that I think
Joss and friends have been trying for since the debut of these
characters.
4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities? (On a
related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
theme for someone?
6) This is probably the most quotable episode of Season Two so far. A
few picks just off the top of my head:
"You have too many thoughts."
"I've known you for two minutes, and already I can't stand you.
I don't really feature you living forever. Can I eat him now,
luv?"
"She's... given me the number of her... beeper thingy...."
"Ours is a forbidden love."
I took awhile to come up with a rating for this one. You know when
something hits all of the points it should, and it works pretty well,
but just doesn't have quite the effect it could? Yeah. Just to show
how arbitrary ratings are, though, one more moment the caliber of the
two I gushed about above might've been enough for the
"Excellent." I'm not going to obsess over this anymore;
there's more to a review than just a rating anyway.
So...
One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
> (or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> That's it for me. I'm through.
>
> When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> suppose we have to start somewhere.
>
> Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
>
> (wait for it... )
> (wait for it...)
>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
Alright, I was just about ready to hunt you down and beat you to death
with a shovel.
>
> I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two. Thus the
> opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
> to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
> to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
> their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
> exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
> tuned, dear viewers!
That Dru was Angel's sister was a hypothesis that I held for a long
time. Even this episode doesn't completely rule the possibility out.
It's possible that Angel left that bit out when he told Buffy about her.
> I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
> cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
> better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
> whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
> laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
> secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
> the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
> sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
> hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
> Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
> chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> we wouldn't care about them anyway?
There really wasn't any time to develop any of the cultists. As a minor
aside, this is the episode that generated the whole "Tracy Lords" thing
that was going on in atvbs for a while. (Someone asked if the blonde
was played by Tracy Lords. She wasn't, but after that people started
"spotting" Tracy in every episode for the next few years, playing
everything from vampires, to bits of furniture.)
> Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
> directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
> also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
> following that.)
I'm afraid that I was going "Uh oh, we've got first time (well second
time) director tricks going on here." Prophecy Girl also had some weird
camera moves, for the sake of a doing weird camera move in it.
> So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
> a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
> attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
> less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
> runs with it. Good stuff.
Coulda done without the Xenaesque jump up to the balcony. That looked
*so* fake.
> 1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
> killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
> afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
> is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
> [These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
> them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
The weakness is never entirely explained, but it's assumed that it had
something to do with that mob in Prague that Giles thought had killed
her.
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities? (On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Vampiric souls are something that are *still* being debated by the fans.
> 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> theme for someone?
Hmmm.... Naq gura Wbff tbrf naq xvyyf Wblpr jvgu pbzcyvpngvbaf sbyybjvat
fhetrel gb erzbir n oenva ghzbhe.
> 6) This is probably the most quotable episode of Season Two so far. A
> few picks just off the top of my head:
> "You have too many thoughts."
> "I've known you for two minutes, and already I can't stand you.
> I don't really feature you living forever. Can I eat him now,
> luv?"
> "She's... given me the number of her... beeper thingy...."
> "Ours is a forbidden love."
And then we have some of my favourite quotes from the episode:
- When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
*me*! This is great!" line.
- Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
Bronze.
- Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
- Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
- Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
and the others to the Sunset Club.
- Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
hopelessly devoted
I remember being exactly where you are right now.
Rating every episode.
Trying to figure out each character.
Trying to understand the who's through the why's.
Seeing where you are now and knowing how ALL the pieces fit.......
Stick with it.
You are in for the RIDE OF YOUR LIFE!
ENJOY!!!
Apteryx
news:1139465006.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> AOQ rating: Good
No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously (and this is
from someone in the small minority who believes Season 1 was the best season
of BtVS). To me, the 15th best episode of BtVS, and 6th best of Season 2
(and the best of Season 2 so far by quite a wide margin).
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1139465006.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Good
>
> No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
> Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously.
I think it might be a case of rising expectations.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
> (or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> That's it for me. I'm through.
>
> When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> suppose we have to start somewhere.
>
> Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
>
> (wait for it... )
> (wait for it...)
>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
That was EVIL!!!! LOL
>
> I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two. Thus the
> opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
> to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
> to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
> their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
> exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
> tuned, dear viewers!
>
It's been a long time since I've seen this episode (I really need to
borrow S2 from my sister to follow along better) but I do like how it
does show there is a history between Angel and Dru. What history that is
will be hit upon later.
> Back in school, it's time to re-address the two complaints that
> appear in pretty much every AOQ review, so let's get them over with
> quickly:
>
> 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> anything other than an idiot? Extra credit if you work in a comparison
> to the Cordelia-is-annoying-but-not-necessarily-stupid Shylock scene
> from OOM/S.
It is way too late in the evening for an attempt to make that comparison
but I'm sure somebody out there is going to give it a try. I didn't
particular care much for Cordelia in the earlier episodes myself. She
did grow on me though.
>
> 2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
> Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
> (It's not as bad in this episode as it's been in the past, but
> it's there.) If you were Buffy in this situation, would you tolerate
> this guy who hasn't made it a secret that he's not over you trying
> to sabotage every potential relationship you might get into? Also -
> granted, some time has passed since "Prophecy Girl," but if you
> were Xander, would you be able to go back to your pre-painful-rejection
> ways so easily?
Xander is getting better at dealing with the other guys in Buffy's life
by this point but he definitely has residual issues of the rejection in
'Prophecy Girl'. If I remember correctly, Buffy (from what I remember)
seems to handle his sarcasm pretty well and for the most part, lets it
slide. However, his repeated "You're not wrong." was pretty funny.
>
<snip>
>
> I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
> cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
> better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
> whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
> laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
> secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
> the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
> sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
> hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
> Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
> chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> we wouldn't care about them anyway?
I never thought Billy was very interesting either. As far as his
character development goes, I think it's just enough to push along the
story but not enough that you form any sort of attachment to the
character. He and Buffy have history. check. He has ulterior motive.
check. Buffy gives him a chance. check. He turns on Buffy. check.
So, he fits the requirements of the antagonist enough to keep him
interesting but we, as the viewer really don't need to feel any real
sympathy for him. It's Buffy we need to feel sympathy for.
>
> Since the beginning of the series, the character of Angel has been
> alternately intriguing and confusing. I valued his role in the plots,
> but I didn't particularly like him and I didn't really know why. I
> think I may remember "Lie To Me" as the episode where I finally
> "got" Angel. He's still underplayed, but there's a lot of
> emotion and nuance underneath the mostly-dead-panning. Watch the way
> he's a little more gentle when visiting Willow in her room, and his
> real concern for Buffy in that scene. Or the very slightly pouty way
> he asks Xander to stop calling him "Dead Boy."
Angel is an intriguing character. I've gotta say, he definitely has layers.
>
> There are two really outstanding sequences in this show. The first of
> them is the talk between Buffy and Angel. Both of them come in ready
> to deal with sharing the truth; whatever else might happen, it's
> better in the long run. The timing is perfect as Angel tells his
> story, Buffy absorbs it, acknowledges that this is what she'd asked
> for, and with trust thus established, Angel is able to give her the
> warning about Ford. Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
> directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
> also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
> following that.)
I'll have to watch for that when I see it again.
>
<snip>
>
> The other excellent scene is the confrontation at the end. It's been
> set up so that Buffy has rather recklessly gotten herself into a bad
> situation (I feel like a certain perceptive character may have
> mentioned that impatience was a flaw of hers...). She's genuinely
> alone and against insurmountable odds; she doesn't usually get into
> real danger of this caliber. So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
> a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
> attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
> less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
> runs with it. Good stuff.
I always thought it was interesting how quickly she assessed the
situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene. She
used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
>
> Points for restraint - Ford's ultimate fate is somewhat obvious, so
> rather than playing it for suspense, the show has Buffy basically tell
> the viewer what's going to happen. The final scene with Giles is
> good but not great. The generalities make sense - these two
> characters should be having this conversation, and Buffy should still
> (as in "Prophecy Girl" and others) be allegorically like every
> older kid who still kinda expects life to be fair. The actual
> dialogue, though, simply isn't as poignant as it thinks it is. The
> very, very end is quite nice, at least, starting with Buffy saying the
> title phrase.
I always loved that scene.
>
> A few other points:
>
> 1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
> killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
> afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
> is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
> [These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
> them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
Rhetorical. check.
>
> 2) Clunky Expository Dialogue Of The Week Award goes to the kid at the
> beginning, explaining to no one in particular that his mom is always
> late.
>
> 3) Spike, Dru, and the bird was strangely sad, in a way that I think
> Joss and friends have been trying for since the debut of these
> characters.
I agree. This scene between them does give a better insight into the
relationship between those two characters. Also, that if you don't feed
birds, they die. :)
>
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
Can of worms: Open
This has been a debate that is probably still going on in Buffy
messageboards as I type this. I firmly believe that vampires do retain a
piece of themselves after they are turned but as you watch future
episodes, this does get elaborated on (at least enough to cause more
excessive arguments on those messageboards).
(On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
I'm going to hold my comments to this until later on in the season.
>
<snip>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Fair enough. Now to the really good stuff. :)
Don Sample
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I always thought it was interesting how quickly she assessed the
> situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene. She
> used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
But there was a definite "We've signed these guys for more episodes, we
can't kill them yet" vibe to the confrontation. Why didn't Buffy dust
Dru on her way out the door? Why didn't she come back with a Molotov
cocktail to toss down into the basement before the vamps could get out?
Matthias Wolf
Actually, as far as these episodes are concerned, the AoQ rating is
spot-on. Sure, Lie To Me has some moments of greatness that exceed
both Witch and The Pack, but if you look at the entire episode and not
just these moments, the two earlier episodes are superior.
--
Matthias Wolf
David Empey
> 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> theme for someone?
>
>
Which was the other one?
--
Dave Empey
"This can be easily fixed by taking 17 levels of Ranger."
--Nockermensch
Mike Zeares
>
> And then we have some of my favourite quotes from the episode:
>
> - When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
> great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
> friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
> *me*! This is great!" line.
> - Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
> Bronze.
> - Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
> dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
> - Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
> Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
> - Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
> and the others to the Sunset Club.
> - Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
> Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
>
> For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
> of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
> got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)
They were actually cut after the first showing. My tape was of the
first repeat, and all of those lines were missing. I know it was recut
to replace the Sisters of Mercy song that was in the original airing,
but I've never been able to come up with any reason for cutting the
lines. I can only clearly remember a couple of them. It bugs me
whenever I watch it.
Is the DVD version's runtime (minus commercials) as long as the
original airing?
-- Mike Zeares
Daniel Damouth
news:dsample-815210...@news.giganews.com:
> And then we have some of my favourite quotes from the episode:
>
> - When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
> great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
> friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
> *me*! This is great!" line.
> - Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
> Bronze.
> - Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
> dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
> - Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
> Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
> - Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
> and the others to the Sunset Club.
> - Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
> Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
>
> For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first
> couple of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs.
> (I've still got my tape of the unadulterated version of the
> episode.)
Holy crap! I do dimly remember those lines. I hope I didn't throw out
that videotape.
I wonder if Joss was responsible for all that eliding.
-Dan Damouth
Daniel Damouth
> In article <7oCdnar3QPa...@comcast.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I always thought it was interesting how quickly she assessed the
>> situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene.
>> She used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
>
> But there was a definite "We've signed these guys for more
> episodes, we can't kill them yet" vibe to the confrontation. Why
> didn't Buffy dust Dru on her way out the door? Why didn't she
> come back with a Molotov cocktail to toss down into the basement
> before the vamps could get out?
I think Buffy has an aversion to killing helpless creatures, even if
they are evil. (Unless there's a good reason to, as in WSWB).
-Dan Damouth
shuggie
David Empey wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1139465006.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> > feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> > theme for someone?
> >
> >
>
> Which was the other one?
>
Morgan in Puppet Show.
shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
<snip>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
Try the veal.
<snip>
> With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> we wouldn't care about them anyway?
They don't get much character development because you only have 45
minutes.
<snip>
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
As Buffy says to Ford that the vampire 'remembers your life'. Whether
the personality comes from that, from the demon or a combination of
both is not clear.
>(On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?)
People have argued it both ways. Personally I think it's his original
soul. But since I think that 'Angel', whatever that is, is the sum of
body, soul, demon etc then I don't necessarily think that his soul *is*
him merely a (very important) part of him.
>As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Something you may have missed, I did for several viewings of this ep,
was that the vamp killed at the end is Ford (you can see his name on
the gravestone if you're quick). So Spike kept to his side of the
bargain even though Ford didn't really deliver the goods. Now it could
be argued that Spike did that knowing that Buffy would stake him as
soon as he rose, but I find it interesting. I think the reason I missed
it was that the vibe from the final scene with the alive Ford was that
Spike was going to take out his frustration over being locked in the
cellar on Ford by killing him horribly.
Apteryx
news:kntlu1ltp4m398rnu...@4ax.com...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
>>Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously (and this is
>>from someone in the small minority who believes Season 1 was the best
>>season
>>of BtVS). To me, the 15th best episode of BtVS, and 6th best of Season 2
>>(and the best of Season 2 so far by quite a wide margin).
>
> Actually, as far as these episodes are concerned, the AoQ rating is
> spot-on. Sure, Lie To Me has some moments of greatness that exceed
> both Witch and The Pack, but if you look at the entire episode and not
> just these moments, the two earlier episodes are superior.
Not so. Now I assume that if YOU look at the entire episodes, you believe
Witch and The Pack are superior (though I can't imagine why), but I can
assure you that if I do, I don't find that at all.
Witch and The Pack are fine as they are, both above average, but they don't
approach the level of Lie to Me. That is on a par (more or less) with the
best episodes of Season 1 (which as far as I am concerned are Angel and
Prophecy Girl). It has the beginnings of ambiguity, with Buffy forced to
feel sympathy for Ford despite wanting to hold on to the black and white
morality of childhood. It shows Angel still afflicted by the guilt of what
he did over a hundred years before (and rightly so, as people are still
dying as a result of it). To the rest of the world, Drusilla is a monster,
yet he knows that as between he and her, he is the monster. And it shows the
soulless monster Spike, prepared to forgo his best chance yet to kill the
slayer, because of his love for Drusilla - and even honourable, keeping his
bargain with Ford despite the disappointing result.
On top of that (or prehaps part of that), we see Spike and Drusilla hitting
their straps for the first time, after what I'd call an mixed start in
School Hard.
--
Apteryx
kenm47
- When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
*me*! This is great!" line.
- Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
Bronze.
- Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
- Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
- Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
and the others to the Sunset Club.
- Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)"
Thanks for pointing those out. I was going to bring up to AOQ that he's
seen a slightly altered version and hoping someone would provide the
missing lines. Were there other snips?
I thought the story was inability to buy the rights to whatever music
is playing in the background for these moments? Weird.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
The Puppet Show
Ken (Brooklyn)
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
>
> For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
> of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
> got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)
WHAT?! No, seriously. Seriously and moreso. I mean... no, it's
impossible, say it isn't so!
Darnit, this means I have to go and watch my DVDs just to make sure.
The pain, the pain!
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities? (On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Hmm. I have to think hard. The problem is that part of my answer
involves a minor spoiler pulled from the Angel series. I suppose that
won't be too bad.
The demon that takes over the vacated body is effectively a
particularly nasty dumb animal. In possessing the dead human, it gains
the intelligence of that human and all of his or her memories. The
demon is by nature (haha) evil, inclined to mayhem and violence, a
blood-drinker and eater of flesh. The human intelligence gives it
scope. The human soul is innocent. Departed from the body, it departs
also from all the good and evil that person did in life. The soul
itself is without memory.
My guess is being sired as a vampire severs soul and personality. The
demon-soul needs the personality in order to function.
Scythe Matters
> I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two.
I'd be careful about assuming that "the vampires" are "the plot" (by
which I guess you mean what you think you've identified as a
multi-episode arc). Sometimes they are. Sometimes they're not. Certainly
you should know by now that the vampires are never _really_ the arc,
though they may serve the arc's needs from time to time.
> 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> anything other than an idiot?
They've portrayed her as unbelievably self-centered, to be sure...though
as you must see that's changing; slowly, but inexorably. She has moron
moments, yes, but then so does everyone else on this show (including, in
relative terms, Giles and Willow). The MA scene portrays her as
Cordelia: Center of the Universe* rather than a moron (recall: "This is
all about me! Me, me, me!"), which is an older conception of the
character, but one attached to a lot more complexity by this point in
the show.
* And the point you should remember from "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" we
know Cordelia's self-aware about her personality. "[Marcie]'s evil,
okay? Way eviler than me." and "Hey! You think I'm never lonely because
I'm so cute and popular? I can be surrounded by people and be completely
alone. It's not like any of them really know me. I don't even know if
they like me half the time. People just want to be in a popular zone.
Sometimes when I talk, everyone's so busy agreeing with me, they don't
hear a word I say." The personality that spouts the Marie Antoinette
nonsense is Cordelia maintaining her façade, her image, her reputation.
> 2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
> Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
Yeah. You'd think that, eventually, that would cause some problems.
> Another general comment before we go on to cool sequence #2: notice how
> well Buffy deals with having both Angel and Ford acting all suspicious
> and/or lying to her. No living in denial. No "you're just
> jealous" to the people who try to warn her. Not even the luxury of
> lashing out too hard at her friends for investigating Ford behind her
> back, since they were trying to look out for her, and it did indeed
> help.
OK, but consider this in light of your objection to Buffy re: Xander's
overt jealousy. What Buffy is showing here is something that they've
been building towards since the first episode: a clarity and sense of
purpose about what's important to her calling, her "mission" if you
will. Despite the jealousy, Xander has always been there for her when it
mattered...thus the jealousy isn't important and she can dismiss it.
What Ford's doing is wrong, despite him being an old friend and an old
crush...thus what's important is that she do her job and she can dismiss
her feelings. Consider what it must take for her to kill a close friend
(and potential boyfriend); not once, but twice. And then wrap it all up:
killing Ford, Angel's ever-more-horrible past, feelings of mistrust
towards Angel vis-ŕ-vis Drusilla, Xander's apparent inability to move
on, Willow/Xander/Angel conspiring "against" her, and you get to the
final scene. Given her role as world-saving Slayer, it's easy to forget
that she's still a high school junior. But she's being forced to grow up.
What gets interesting is the conflict between her character and the
point the episode is making: being an adult is about the shades of grey,
but Buffy is operating with more and more surety and confidence. This
episode hammers that point _and_ that conflict home, and it won't be the
last to do so.
> it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want.
I think you're overlooking the elephant in the room. This is the purpose
that Angel serves: investigating the ambiguity of good and evil,
redemption, etc. There's endless moral ambiguity there, and as you note
we're just starting to really scratch this surface. (It doesn't hurt
that, as I think you correctly identify, this is the episode where
Boreanaz starts to actually act a little bit.)
> Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Yeah. Boy, wouldn't that be something?.
> 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> theme for someone?
It's the Hellmouth. ;-)
kenm47
Well <ambiguous and thus impossible to be a Spoiler and referencing
debateable way in the future issue>, maybe not always.
And since I've found a rot-13 encoder:
V fgvyy guvax Wblpr'f Frnfba 5 ceboyrz jnf pnhfrq ol cebkvzvgl gb naq
frafvgvivgl gb gur cbjreyvar fbzr pnyyrq Gur Xrl, bguref pnyyrq Qnja.
Ohssl, orvat Gur Fynlre naq lbhat jnf abg fvzvyneyl nssrpgrq.
Ken (Brooklyn)
rrh...@acme.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> That's it for me. I'm through.
>
> When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> suppose we have to start somewhere.
>
> Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
>
> (wait for it... )
> (wait for it...)
>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
OK, you had me going. I was mentally composing my reply, where I point
out that in response to your review of "Halloween" I said that the
series was about to hit its stride, but that Episode 7 wasn't one I
particularly care for. It turns out you like Ep. 7 more than I did. I
don't have any real objection to the episode. It just doesn't really
click for me. I would probably have given it a "decent".
Richard R. Hershberger
rrh...@acme.com
We can also take her not killing Dru on the way out as strategy. I'm
going from distant memory, but as I recall the incident there was a
deal that if she could go she wouldn't kill Dru. A reputation for
keeping deals makes it more likely for such deals to work in the
future. Think of the stereotype villain boss who hires an assassin and
after the job is done kills him. You gotta figure that eventually word
would get around and the hiring process would get more difficult.
Buffy, though, is someone you can work with, even if you're evil.
Richard R. Hershberger
Scythe Matters
> V fgvyy guvax Wblpr'f Frnfba 5 ceboyrz jnf pnhfrq ol cebkvzvgl gb naq
> frafvgvivgl gb gur cbjreyvar fbzr pnyyrq Gur Xrl, bguref pnyyrq Qnja.
> Ohssl, orvat Gur Fynlre naq lbhat jnf abg fvzvyneyl nssrpgrq.
Yes, but:
Fvapr Qnja jnf ng Urzrel naq va Fhaalqnyr qhevat frnfba 2, jr pna oynzr
ure sbe gurfr nf jryy. ;-)
arnold kim
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote in message
news:1139496298.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There's also the fact that if she dusted Dru, she would lose her advantage
over Spike. Keep his achilles' heel around, you have something to
potentially keep him in check.
Arnold Kim
arnold kim
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7oCdnar3QPa...@comcast.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
>> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
>
>
> Can of worms: Open
>
> This has been a debate that is probably still going on in Buffy
> messageboards as I type this. I firmly believe that vampires do retain a
> piece of themselves after they are turned but as you watch future
> episodes, this does get elaborated on (at least enough to cause more
> excessive arguments on those messageboards).
I think that a vampire basically retains a "copy" of the original
personality. In other words, a vampire's personality is basically the
original personality, except turned evil and given lots of power. A
non-spoiler example would be Jesse in "The Harvest"- the power and lack of
conscience that came with being a vampire basically allowed a "geek" to
unleash his inner badass. Others might not be changed at all, except now
they like killing people.
Arnold Kim
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Do not confuse coincidence with fate.
Oh, sorry. Wrong show.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
John Briggs
Yes, they had to take off "Neverland" by The Sisters of Mercy. They
obviously took the opportunity to do a comprehensive re-edit.
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The version that Space in Canada reran for years afterward still had all
those lines in it. (I missed it the last time it came around in their
rotation, so I don't know if that's still the case.)