AOQ Review 2-12: "Bad Eggs"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
(or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
Save them for the responses.")
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Greenwalt
1998 doesn't begin badly at all. The teaser of "Bad Eggs" starts
with Joyce and her daughter handling shopping tasks in a mall, before,
as seems to happen often, vampires get in the way. This scene features
a few good exchanges before the stuff happens ("I'm gonna be too
young to wear it until I'm too old to wear it." "That's the
idea"). And it hurts a little to hear Buffy be accused of
irresponsibility when we know she's doing the right thing.
>From there, though, I wasn't enamored with the scenes between Buffy
and Joyce (or with anything else about the show, but we'll start
here). This I may be willing to chalk up to my disapproval of the
device of Sunnydale Forgettyitis. It's just that with every episode,
it gets a little harder to swallow the idea that Joyce is totally
unaware that Buffy's some kind of hero or something. It appears like
the show's in a bind with this character - she needs to stay
oblivious and unfair to keep up the "parents just don't
understand" portion of the show's central metaphor. She can't be
a one-note character because that'd just be boring, and she can't
have too much depth or else she can't play the oblivious and unfair
mom. Anyway, we basically see the opening scene played out a few
times, and each time it's less effective and more like a formula.
Buffy does good and gets accused of doing bad, over and over. Komedy!
Or pathos! I actually don't really know what tone they were going
for.
At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
high school and no real-life high schools? Hilarity continues to fail
to ensue as we spend way too much time watching our favorite couples
being all lovey and stuff. Let me also take the opportunity to mention
one thing I personally hate watching is conversations that happen a
quarter-sentence at a time because the characters are just so
impassioned that they have to kiss after every word. I've never seen
this happen outside TV-land (granted, I'm not an expert given that I
never got laid when I was seventeen), but all's I'm saying is that
there are ways to convey lust without making it impossible for the
scene to have any flow. Or be watchable.
Xander and Cordelia are in a thoroughly useless relationship anyway,
especially given that it began with what I'll continue referring to
as The Scene That Should Not Be until it catches on. So individual bad
scenes (and yes, they're quite bad) are pretty much expected; it's
not like they can really do much damage to what's already broke. On
the other hand, Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
I want is you." Until now, that is.
In the meantime, there's a silly plot involving insects taking
control of people and making them part of the hive. The series really
hasn't done well with giant bugs, has it? I think the word
"impact" is the best word I can use to sum up the difference
between a thoroughly ridiculous episode like "The Pack" and a
thoroughly ridiculous episode like "Bad Eggs." I'm struck by how
little impact any of this has for everyone, even compared to the
standard monster-of-the-week episode. The weaker shows in the past
have at least made some attempt to have a character that we care about
be in some way invested in the monster story. OOM/S and SAR created
new characters we'd (hopefully) care about (and tied their stories
into Cordelia's). "Teacher's Pet" and IRYJ had monsters that
targeted Xander and Willow specifically, so we could see how they
reacted. BE has nothing, basically. I couldn't pretend to care.
It doesn't help that the plot is quite clumsily handled. As far as I
can see, the egg things turned down two chances to infect Buffy (the
bedroom and the closet). I'm completely baffled as to why threats
like Buffy and Xander were left un-bugged while they were out cold.
Yes, I know the hive left a few easily squishable eggs behind, but the
scene outside the library (the kid who "trips") shows how quickly
and efficiently they can take someone over when the script doesn't
prevent it. And then I'll admit that I was also confused originally
as to why the mother insect suddenly died at the end. I kept saying to
Mrs. Quality "I'm sure it'll be explained," and it wasn't.
(Yes, from glancing at the script I now realize that Buffy grabbed a
weapon on her way in, but I don't remember actually seeing it.
I'll just blame Greenwalt since he makes a good target.)
So, bad teen romance mixed with weak monster story... not a fun place
to be. At this point it's time for the token listing of enjoyable
things about the episode, but I'm afraid it'll be a pitifully short
list. So, let's see, um...
1) Xander's total contempt for the egg project is appreciated, and
gives a few good lines ("You gotta keep it safe and teach it
Christian values").
2) Greenwalt (and possibly Noxon) does actually deserve credit for some
of the directing. The under-the-bed shots in the scene where Buffy
kills her insect attacker make the sequence creepier than it has any
right to be. And then that's immediately followed up by the best
moment of the show - Buffy's chatting with Willow, who assures her
that her egg is fine. The scene plays out naturally. We follow
Willows' gaze over to the egg. It's broken. Absorb that for a
second. Then we pan back to Willow. She's completely serene. This
is the one instant where I believed that something scary, or at least
worth watching, was going on.
3) The Gorch Brothers had potential. I'm not implying that they're
actively interesting or anything, because they're not, but as well
worn stock characters, their scenes at least have sufficient comedic
timing to be a welcome break from everything else. I think they
deserved a better episode to be part of (and hey, one of them survived,
so...). Even their writing was spotty; I'd have gone for less of the
"this is your fault!" and more of the "okay, it's over."
D'ya think whichever Gorch survived took off because he had a morsel
of decency/gratitude, or did he just realize that the odds were against
him?
4) The Gorch Brothers' backstory. They were "bad eggs" before
they were vampires. Well, I kinda liked that.
5) Cordelia assuming that anyone who's missing is dead. Hey, it's
a reasonable assumption in this town...
I've got nothing else. I guess BE was supposed to be a comedy or at
least a fun romp or something? If that's the case, I'd suggest
making it enjoyable next time.
So...
One-sentence summary: Just... no.
AOQ rating: Bad
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good
8) "The Dark Age" - Good
9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
11) "Ted" - Excellent
12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad]
jil...@hotmail.com
However, one of the multiple things you should keep in mind is that
this was over seven years ago now. Some of the things you've seen too
much of these days are copycats of Buffy plots. Not that all plots in
the world aren't recycled, and recycled, and re - well, you get the
picture. I was highly amused by the brothers, too.
For some reason, I once was under the impression that James Marsters
might have auditioned for the part of one of the brothers. At the time
he came on the show, his English accent was still quite unsteady. I
thought Spike might have been a Southern gentleman, sired as a vampire.
THAT was my first impression of Spike, actually.
kenm47
a busy week has had me fall behind on even the first run eps of the
shows I've been following.
Anyway "Bad"? Well, not great, but no worse than decent in my memory.
IMO the least of the Season 2 episodes. Another homage episode. This
time to The Puppet Masters and the like (the like including those weird
parasites that showed up in Season 1 of ST:TNG "Conspiracy," had real
potential as a threat, and were never heard of again after the
immediate threat to Starfleet command was thwarted).
Oh, BTW, a lot of the "forgettiness" in this one is probably a result
of who wrote it. Don't listen to her commentaries (too spoilerish),
but IIRC Marti seemed to take pride in not knowing anything about the
Buffy-verse, it's canon, or continuity within it. She counted on Joss
to clean her stuff up - and Joss may be good, but he never was perfect.
So, mainly a MOTW episode, but it did raise the issue of how much more
would be needed before this forgetting business was overcome. And when
is Joyce going to get back to those single parenting lessons.
And the Gorch Brothers at the mall and in the finale were fun and
interesting IMO. I also recall some little nice bits of business like
something about the backpacks to check out.
Anyway, it's just a first half of the season ending placeholder.
Pacing! Pacing!
Maybe more later. If and when.
Ken (Brooklyn)
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> (or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
> Save them for the responses.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
No comment, except that there is another turn of phrase that will come
back to bite you in the arse.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
No argument from me.
>
> [Season Two so far:
> 1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
> 2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
> 3) "School Hard" - Decent
> 4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
> 5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
> 6) "Halloween" - Good
> 7) "Lie To Me" - Good
> 8) "The Dark Age" - Good
> 9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
> 10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
> 11) "Ted" - Excellent
> 12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad]
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
hopelessly devoted
> it gets a little harder to swallow the idea that Joyce is totally
> unaware that Buffy's some kind of hero or something.
Or the way that some parents are just clueless about their child's
drinking, drugs, or bomb making in the basement??? Joyce, is typical
mom, she sees what she can accept.
> but all's I'm saying is that
> there are ways to convey lust without making it impossible for the
> scene to have any flow. Or be watchable.
No comment yet except to say, that at this time, I was also "still
waiting for the show to kick-in".
> The weaker shows in the past
> have at least made some attempt to have a character that we care about
> be in some way invested in the monster story.
There seems to be a pattern developing.....but because it's still
early, no comment.
> And then I'll admit that I was also confused originally
> as to why the mother insect suddenly died at the end. I kept saying to
> Mrs. Quality "I'm sure it'll be explained," and it wasn't.
Buffy saves the day.............................I always saw her choose
the weapon, however it was a dissappointing kill.
> Even their writing was spotty; I'd have gone for less of the
> "this is your fault!" and more of the "okay, it's over."
"okay, it's over." Highlight of the show for me.
Developing a sense of taste?
"When She Was Bad" - Good - Joss Whedon
"Some Assembly Required" - Weak - Ty King
"School Hard" - Decent - David Greenwalt
"Inca Mummy Girl" - Good - Matt Kiene and Joe Reinkemeyer
"Reptile Boy" - Decent - David Greenwalt
"Halloween" - Good - Carl Ellsworth
"Lie To Me" - Good - Joss Whedon
"The Dark Age" - Good - Dean Batali and Rob Des Hotel
"What's My Line (Part One)" - Good - Howard Gordon and Marti Noxon
"What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good - Marti Noxon
"Ted" - Excellent - David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
"Bad Eggs" - Bad]- Marti Noxon
Personally, with the exception of a couple of eps, Marti Noxon and
David Greenwalt never did a thing for me in S2 (or actually, ever)
11 writers for S1, 12 for S2
Bad Eggs - Skippable for reasons you have not yet realized.
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> 4) The Gorch Brothers' backstory. They were "bad eggs" before
> they were vampires. Well, I kinda liked that.
And, of course, Peckinpah's "The Wild Bunch" is pertinent here.
HWL
kenm47
back to bite you in the arse."
Just curious. Could you ROT13 that for the rest of us?
Thx,
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> >It's just that with every episode,
> > it gets a little harder to swallow the idea that Joyce is totally
> > unaware that Buffy's some kind of hero or something.
>
> Or the way that some parents are just clueless about their child's
> drinking, drugs, or bomb making in the basement??? Joyce, is typical
> mom, she sees what she can accept.
would be nice if joyce were forced to confront her own cluelessness
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Not exactly subtle, this one:
The pay-off is "unir lbh rire gevrq abg orvat n Fynlre".
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Marti seemed to take pride in not knowing anything about the
> Buffy-verse, it's canon, or continuity within it.
In your opinion, of course.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> (or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
> Save them for the responses.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
>
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
>
I've always considered 'Ted' and 'Bad Eggs' to be speedbumps on the
road to Buffy goodness. I was a bit surprised you rated 'Ted' as
excellent but at least it had John Ritter going for it. 'Bad Eggs' name
fits it well. It simply stunk.
kenm47
Have you listened to her commentaries from those early episodes? Her
own words condemn her. Don't make me have to find time to listen to her
again.
But if it makes you more comfortable, yes, IMO. She got better later
(orsber fur tbg jbefre naq jbefre).
Ken (Brooklyn)
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Expect that every writer routinely had their work Jossed as, well,
pretty well all of them have confirmed (I originally typed that as
conformed). Naq juvpu vf gur bar gung Wbff raqrq hc gehfgvat zbfg?
kenm47
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1140100792.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > vague disclaimer wrote:
> > > In article <1140096193.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Marti seemed to take pride in not knowing anything about the
> > > > Buffy-verse, it's canon, or continuity within it.
> > >
> > > In your opinion, of course.
> > > --
> > > A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
> >
> > Have you listened to her commentaries from those early episodes? Her
> > own words condemn her. Don't make me have to find time to listen to her
> > again.
> >
> > But if it makes you more comfortable, yes, IMO. She got better later
> > (orsber fur tbg jbefre naq jbefre).
>
> Expect that every writer routinely had their work Jossed as, well,
> pretty well all of them have confirmed (I originally typed that as
> conformed). Naq juvpu vf gur bar gung Wbff raqrq hc gehfgvat zbfg?
> --
> A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Again, listen to her own words of her glee in not knowing anything
about Buffy when she was hired and was doing her early writing for the
show.
ROT13:
Jryy, gung jnf zhpu yngre.
Jr nyy znxr zvfgnxrf. Orfvqrf, V'z bs gur fpubby ur ernyyl fgbccrq
pnevat. LZZI. Fgvyy jnvgvat sbe gung HCA lrnef gryy nyy, juvpu V abj
guvax V'yy arire yvir gb frr.
We've probably taken this further than presently necessary.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Terry
news:hwlabadiejr-161F...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net:
I actually saw the Wild Bunch *after* this episode. I stopped the DVD and
had to explain to everyone why I just got so excited about these stupid
characters.
Terry (who is enjoying this trip down memory lane)
Bill Reid
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140094248.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> (or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
> Save them for the responses.")
I'm meditating now so I'll just say "Ommm a lot"...
> Writer: Marti Noxon
Kinda cute.
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
Don't know what he looks like.
> 1998 doesn't begin badly at all. The teaser of "Bad Eggs" starts
> with Joyce and her daughter handling shopping tasks in a mall, before,
> as seems to happen often, vampires get in the way. This scene features
> a few good exchanges before the stuff happens ("I'm gonna be too
> young to wear it until I'm too old to wear it." "That's the
> idea"). And it hurts a little to hear Buffy be accused of
> irresponsibility when we know she's doing the right thing.
>
Funny stuff.
> Anyway, we basically see the opening scene played out a few
> times, and each time it's less effective and more like a formula.
> Buffy does good and gets accused of doing bad, over and over. Komedy!
> Or pathos! I actually don't really know what tone they were going
> for.
>
Plot device. You gotta get over this stuff, just like it's a show about
vampires...
> At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
> notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
> high school and no real-life high schools?
We did this with rutabagas in our school...
> Let me also take the opportunity to mention
> one thing I personally hate watching is conversations that happen a
> quarter-sentence at a time because the characters are just so
> impassioned that they have to kiss after every word. I've never seen
> this happen outside TV-land (granted, I'm not an expert given that I
> never got laid when I was seventeen), but all's I'm saying is that
> there are ways to convey lust without making it impossible for the
> scene to have any flow. Or be watchable.
>
Not really. You see, in "real life", people don't talk while they're
making out. But except in porno, non-talking sex is just boring,
so you pretty much wind up with the movie/TV convention of
dumb dramatic dialog interspersed with smooching. It's just
a feature of the medium...
> Xander and Cordelia are in a thoroughly useless relationship anyway,
You flunked Human Sexuality in school right?
> On
> the other hand, Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
> relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
> dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
> I want is you." Until now, that is.
>
Yeah, that's some pretty cheesy dialog there...I remember watching
this the first time and thinking some kid wrote the scripts. But then
I start to realize, it's actually a script about some kids, and it's not
THAT bad...
> In the meantime, there's a silly plot involving insects taking
> control of people and making them part of the hive. The series really
> hasn't done well with giant bugs, has it?
Nope.
> "Teacher's Pet" and IRYJ had monsters that
> targeted Xander and Willow specifically, so we could see how they
> reacted. BE has nothing, basically. I couldn't pretend to care.
>
Well, the eggs targeted everybody, and everybody reacted the
same way, like zombies. So yeah, you're basically right...
> And then I'll admit that I was also confused originally
> as to why the mother insect suddenly died at the end.
Me too.
> I kept saying to
> Mrs. Quality "I'm sure it'll be explained," and it wasn't.
No, you just have to watch the episode 8 billion times and fill
in the blanks...
> (Yes, from glancing at the script I now realize that Buffy grabbed a
> weapon on her way in, but I don't remember actually seeing it.
You shouldn't have to read a script or watch it 8 billion times...but
you might assume she just punched it to death, like I did the first
time I saw it...
> So, bad teen romance mixed with weak monster story... not a fun place
> to be. At this point it's time for the token listing of enjoyable
> things about the episode, but I'm afraid it'll be a pitifully short
> list. So, let's see, um...
>
> 2) Greenwalt (and possibly Noxon) does actually deserve credit for some
> of the directing. The under-the-bed shots in the scene where Buffy
> kills her insect attacker make the sequence creepier than it has any
> right to be.
I was impressed with the triple focus-pull in that scene, where they
focus on the window, then a close-up of the egg, then Buffy looking
at the egg. OK, I'm impressed by focus-pulls, so what?
>
> 3) The Gorch Brothers had potential.
They had so much potential, they made a movie about them,
called "The Wild Bunch"! Whedon apparently liked that movie
so much he borrowed the names "Angel" and "Pike" (in the "Buffy"
movie) from it, and just lifted the Lyle and Tector "characters"
(actually real people) wholesale but made them vampires
(and in the movie, they DID kill an entire Mexican village).
> I'm not implying that they're
> actively interesting or anything, because they're not, but as well
> worn stock characters, their scenes at least have sufficient comedic
> timing to be a welcome break from everything else. I think they
> deserved a better episode to be part of (and hey, one of them survived,
> so...).
Yeah, who knows what may happen.
> D'ya think whichever Gorch survived took off because he had a morsel
> of decency/gratitude, or did he just realize that the odds were against
> him?
>
Sometimes I wonder about you, or maybe the script REALLY was
that bad. After he "saw" Buffy kill the big monster, he decided to
skedaddle because he knew fighting her would be futile. Or that's
how I took it, and how I truly believe the writers intended it...
> 4) The Gorch Brothers' backstory. They were "bad eggs" before
> they were vampires. Well, I kinda liked that.
>
Again, actual historical and movie "fact"...
>
> I've got nothing else. I guess BE was supposed to be a comedy or at
> least a fun romp or something? If that's the case, I'd suggest
> making it enjoyable next time.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
>
Hmmmm, looks like you may need some more "bad" ratings if
a stupid little "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" homage curdles
your milk...this was a TV show that has to put out 22 one-hour
episodes a season, you're gonna get more than a speck of filler...
> [Season Two so far:
> 1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
> 2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
> 3) "School Hard" - Decent
> 4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
> 5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
> 6) "Halloween" - Good
> 7) "Lie To Me" - Good
> 8) "The Dark Age" - Good
> 9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
> 10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
> 11) "Ted" - Excellent
> 12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad]
>
But strangely, you've rated other time-fillers more highly...OK,
you've explained why, except for me, they're all kind of the same...
---
William Ernest Reid
Stephen Tempest
>1) Xander's total contempt for the egg project is appreciated, and
>gives a few good lines ("You gotta keep it safe and teach it
>Christian values").
Matched by Willow's reply "My egg is Jewish." And, later on, "You
boiled your young?"
>2) Greenwalt (and possibly Noxon) does actually deserve credit for some
>of the directing. The under-the-bed shots in the scene where Buffy
>kills her insect attacker make the sequence creepier than it has any
>right to be.
I'm always convinced that this scene is BtVS's homage to the Alien
series. It's the way the Bad Eggs crack open to reveal a
multi-legged, Facehugger-like monster that scuttles around, lurks in
corners and jumps out to try and attach itself to passing humans...
To be specific, the scene in Buffy's bedroom reminded me of the
sequence in 'Aliens' where Ripley and Newt have been locked in the
hospital ward with a couple of unhatched eggs.
Which would make Buffy vs the Mother Bezoar the equivalent of Ripley
vs the Queen Alien, except that Buffy doesn't need a robotic
exoskeleton to beat it...
Another good line was the argument about who should dissect the
facehugger: Xander saying Buffy should because she's the Slayer, and
her reply "And I slew. My work here is done."
>AOQ rating: Bad
So far, the Worst. Episode. Evar., then? I have to say that, despite
its bursts of good dialogue, I agree with you. There just seemed too
many disjointed plot elements thrown together with no idea how to make
them work together...
Still, at least Buffy and Angel's relationship seems to be progressing
nicely now, so there's something to be happy about.
Stephen
arnold kim
"Stephen Tempest" <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eb79v11kospqoct8o...@4ax.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>>1) Xander's total contempt for the egg project is appreciated, and
>>gives a few good lines ("You gotta keep it safe and teach it
>>Christian values").
>
> Matched by Willow's reply "My egg is Jewish." And, later on, "You
> boiled your young?"
>
>>2) Greenwalt (and possibly Noxon) does actually deserve credit for some
>>of the directing. The under-the-bed shots in the scene where Buffy
>>kills her insect attacker make the sequence creepier than it has any
>>right to be.
>
> I'm always convinced that this scene is BtVS's homage to the Alien
> series. It's the way the Bad Eggs crack open to reveal a
> multi-legged, Facehugger-like monster that scuttles around, lurks in
> corners and jumps out to try and attach itself to passing humans...
> To be specific, the scene in Buffy's bedroom reminded me of the
> sequence in 'Aliens' where Ripley and Newt have been locked in the
> hospital ward with a couple of unhatched eggs.
Actually, I think it was more of an homage to "Invasion of the Body
Snatchers," or any movie with aliens and pod people.
Arnold Kim
kenm47
Since folk are taken over rather than replaced by alien clones, I still
say "The Puppet Masters," and the other nice rift on that "Invaders
>From Mars" (the original)
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0045917/
I do see the Alien business in that scene with Buffy. Nice thought.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
Sorry.
Ken (Brooklyn)
William George Ferguson
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
Doing a slight rearranging, and random commentary:
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
>(or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
>Save them for the responses.")
>Writer: Marti Noxon
>Director: David Greenwalt
>AOQ rating: Bad
To quote River properly this time, "That's the popular theory". I
started rating episodes on the Global Episode Opinion Survey (GEOS) back
in 1998, basically because it did Buffy and was established enough in the
field (it had grown out of combining separate X-Files and Star Trek
ratings surveys back in the early 90s) that it wouldn't go away. On
that, Bad Eggs ranks 142nd out 144 Buffy episodes (the Buffy survey is
one of the more popular with an average of almost 400 people voting per
episode, Bad Eggs had 497 people vote on it).
>1998 doesn't begin badly at all. The teaser of "Bad Eggs" starts
>with Joyce and her daughter handling shopping tasks in a mall, before,
>as seems to happen often, vampires get in the way. This scene features
>a few good exchanges before the stuff happens ("I'm gonna be too
>young to wear it until I'm too old to wear it." "That's the
>idea"). And it hurts a little to hear Buffy be accused of
>irresponsibility when we know she's doing the right thing.
>
>>From there, though, I wasn't enamored with the scenes between Buffy
>and Joyce (or with anything else about the show, but we'll start
>here). This I may be willing to chalk up to my disapproval of the
>device of Sunnydale Forgettyitis. It's just that with every episode,
>it gets a little harder to swallow the idea that Joyce is totally
>unaware that Buffy's some kind of hero or something. It appears like
>the show's in a bind with this character - she needs to stay
>oblivious and unfair to keep up the "parents just don't
>understand" portion of the show's central metaphor. She can't be
>a one-note character because that'd just be boring, and she can't
>have too much depth or else she can't play the oblivious and unfair
>mom. Anyway, we basically see the opening scene played out a few
>times, and each time it's less effective and more like a formula.
>Buffy does good and gets accused of doing bad, over and over. Komedy!
>Or pathos! I actually don't really know what tone they were going
>for.
We also don't know at exactly what point the Bezoar egg got her, which
could affect her behavior. Still, this was becoming a problem, one that
they dealt with primarily by not having Joyce around for swatches of
episodes.
Still Joyce's obliviousness didn't bother me on that level so much. What
bothered me was that Buffy really needed to tell Joyce. As Darla
demonstrated so effectively in Angel, an oblivious Joyce is a huge target
of opportunity for anyone wanting to get at Buffy. From Angel on, I was
adding to my posts on Buffy, basically for every episode in which she
appeared, in increasingly strident tones, that Buffy needs to tell Joyce,
for Joyce's own safety, let alone moral and ethical responsibility (Buffy
going off to what she thought was certain death in Prophecy Girl without
telling Joyce really bugged me at the time).
>At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
>notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
>high school and no real-life high schools?
It actually does occur in high schools, or at least did. Not always an
egg, sometimes a small sack of flour is used for the purpose. The exact
class that does it varies, it may be Home Ec, or Family Studies, or
Health Ed, or Sex ED, but yeah, Hollyweird didn't make it up.
[snip general relationship rant]
>Xander and Cordelia are in a thoroughly useless relationship anyway,
>especially given that it began with what I'll continue referring to
>as The Scene That Should Not Be until it catches on. So individual bad
>scenes (and yes, they're quite bad) are pretty much expected; it's
>not like they can really do much damage to what's already broke. On
>the other hand, Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
>relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
>dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
>I want is you." Until now, that is.
Remember in my response to your WSWB review, when I said that back then I
didn't think that Buffy was 'all better now' even at the end? Back
during the original airing of the first half of season 2, I viewed
Buffy's behavior as a series of coping methods to deal with the trauma
of, you know, being murdered. First she did the brittle 'nothing
emotional will be allowed to touch me', which broke down at the end of
WSWB, then she moved on to 'I'm the Slayer, it's my night job', which
kind of broke in What's My Line', and now she's in lovey-dovey 'it's twuu
wuv with my 240 year old 16 year old girl's fanfic' (I'm not saying that
the character of Angel is really just a 16 year old girl's fanfic, just
that's the way Buffy is seeing him at this point, she is seeing a
self-filtered vesion of Angel, as we all see self-filtered versions of
people we're involved with).
>In the meantime, there's a silly plot involving insects taking
>control of people and making them part of the hive. The series really
>hasn't done well with giant bugs, has it? I think the word
>"impact" is the best word I can use to sum up the difference
>between a thoroughly ridiculous episode like "The Pack" and a
>thoroughly ridiculous episode like "Bad Eggs." I'm struck by how
>little impact any of this has for everyone, even compared to the
>standard monster-of-the-week episode. The weaker shows in the past
>have at least made some attempt to have a character that we care about
>be in some way invested in the monster story. OOM/S and SAR created
>new characters we'd (hopefully) care about (and tied their stories
>into Cordelia's). "Teacher's Pet" and IRYJ had monsters that
>targeted Xander and Willow specifically, so we could see how they
>reacted. BE has nothing, basically. I couldn't pretend to care.
You didn't care about Jonathan being possesssed? :)
>It doesn't help that the plot is quite clumsily handled. As far as I
>can see, the egg things turned down two chances to infect Buffy (the
>bedroom and the closet). I'm completely baffled as to why threats
>like Buffy and Xander were left un-bugged while they were out cold.
>Yes, I know the hive left a few easily squishable eggs behind, but the
>scene outside the library (the kid who "trips") shows how quickly
>and efficiently they can take someone over when the script doesn't
>prevent it.
There weren't baby Bezoars running around unattached. Basically, an egg
was put in a position to form a bond with a person, then, when the baby
Bezoar hatched, it would attach itself to that person. One egg, and baby
Bezoar, per person. Buffy and Xander both killed theirs, Buffy being
alerted by her spidey-sense and whacking her baby Bezoar, and Xander by
pre-emptively hard boiling his egg so it wouldn't break (and couldn't
hatch). Replacement eggs were provided but hadn't hatched when they woke
up.
Jonathan hadn't already broken his egg, when he tripped in the hallway.
>And then I'll admit that I was also confused originally
>as to why the mother insect suddenly died at the end. I kept saying to
>Mrs. Quality "I'm sure it'll be explained," and it wasn't.
>(Yes, from glancing at the script I now realize that Buffy grabbed a
>weapon on her way in, but I don't remember actually seeing it.
>I'll just blame Greenwalt since he makes a good target.)
The general rule is 'blame the writer', and unless you've managed to
block out general non-specific stuff even better than I thought, you've
probably seen that 'I blame Marti' is a very popular game in Buffy
fandom.
As for not seeing Buffy grab the pickaxe, you just missed it. Given that
they generally do keep the major gore off-screen (for both ratings and
budget reasons), I thought the scene was reasonably clear. Buffy grabs a
pickaxe and goes down the throat of Mama Bezoar. Lyle Gorch (and we)
hear a series of noises, followed by a short bit of quiet. Then a gore
covered pickaxe is pitched up over the lip of the hole, followed by a
gore covered Buffy pulling herself up over the lip of the hole. All the
baby Bezoars drop dead, and Buffy gives Lyle 'The Look'. Lyle follows
the survival strategy previously established by the three surviving vamps
in The Harvest and Sheila in School Hard (and an excellent survival
strategy it is, I can only remember it failing once, and Buffy was Really
Pissed Off that time).
>So, bad teen romance mixed with weak monster story... not a fun place
>to be. At this point it's time for the token listing of enjoyable
>things about the episode, but I'm afraid it'll be a pitifully short
>list. So, let's see, um...
>
>1) Xander's total contempt for the egg project is appreciated, and
>gives a few good lines ("You gotta keep it safe and teach it
>Christian values").
Which, of course, leads to a 'reveal' that lot's of us were already
speculating on. Willow's egg (and Willow) is Jewish. (Xander: "So we'll
teach it the dreidle song.")
>3) The Gorch Brothers had potential. I'm not implying that they're
>actively interesting or anything, because they're not, but as well
>worn stock characters, their scenes at least have sufficient comedic
>timing to be a welcome break from everything else. I think they
>deserved a better episode to be part of (and hey, one of them survived,
>so...). Even their writing was spotty; I'd have gone for less of the
>"this is your fault!" and more of the "okay, it's over."
>D'ya think whichever Gorch survived took off because he had a morsel
>of decency/gratitude, or did he just realize that the odds were against
>him?
Lyle took off because he isn't the stupid brother (at least not as stupid
as Tector). He'd just seen Buffy pick up a pickaxe, jump down the throat
of a demon the approximate size of a house, and chop her way out from the
inside, killing it in the process.
>4) The Gorch Brothers' backstory. They were "bad eggs" before
>they were vampires. Well, I kinda liked that.
On the Gorch Brothers; in case you weren't aware, Lyle and Tector Gorch
are characters in Sam Peckinpaugh's The Wild Bunch.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Carlos Moreno
> "No comment, except that there is another turn of phrase that will come
>
> back to bite you in the arse."
>
> Just curious. Could you ROT13 that for the rest of us?
Go to http://www.rot13.com
Just copy-and-paste the phrase he had put, and click on the
"Cipher" button to decrypt (notice that with rot13, encryption
and decryption are the exact same operation -- so, either way,
copy-n-paste clear or rot13'd text and click the button to
flip to the other state)
HTH,
Carlos
--
Mike Zeares
> At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
> notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
> high school and no real-life high schools?
Supposedly they now use computer-chipped baby dolls that cry and all,
but again, I've only seen those on tv too.
> I'll just blame Greenwalt since he makes a good target.)
Blame Marti Noxon. Everybody else always has. :-)
This was actually her first script, and I think she pitched the story
to Joss. I can't remember how much of it was hers; it has the
appearance of having been written by several people who didn't talk to
each other very much. It's strictly a guilty pleasure for me. And
there's a lot of guilt. Because if I step back and look at it
rationally... yikes.
I do like the Gorch brothers, though. The show could have been about
them. Or it could have been about the bezoar. It's just a filler ep,
no need to go overboard.
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
Another one that makes a lot of "Worst Ever" lists. Oh well. Moving
along.
-- Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters
I've always hated this episode, and don't thank you for making me
rewatch it. ;-) Some good lines, some good moments, but the A plot does
nothing for me.
> And it hurts a little to hear Buffy be accused of
> irresponsibility when we know she's doing the right thing.
It seems like it's getting harder and harder for Buffy.
1) Her desire for a real life is becoming ever more unfulfillable (ref.
"What's My Line?" plus all the "Reptile Boy"-type plots, and now she's
on double secret probation. Makes it hard to have a social life, or even
a life.
2) She's getting better at the slaying, but the enemies are getting
tougher: Spike, assassins, Dru. Not necessarily because they're stronger
(as you've seen, strength is a nebulous concept in the Buffyverse), but
because they're less bash-crush-kill and more interested in strategems,
plots and in-their-favor odds.
3) The principal is patently against her. Her Watcher is demanding
(though as we see, less demanding than he could be). And now her mother
is back on her case. Even the police seemed interested in her, at least
for this episode.
4) It's getting harder to trust what's around her; the grey areas I've
mentioned a few times. Giles has proven to be decidedly imperfect. She's
wavered on Angel, though now things seem to be fine. Her friends have,
from time to time, worked against her. And even her own choices haven't
been working so well lately.
The only things that seem clear at the moment are her improving Slayer
abilities and her love for Angel.
> From there, though, I wasn't enamored with the scenes between Buffy
> and Joyce (or with anything else about the show, but we'll start
> here). This I may be willing to chalk up to my disapproval of the
> device of Sunnydale Forgettyitis. It's just that with every episode,
> it gets a little harder to swallow the idea that Joyce is totally
> unaware that Buffy's some kind of hero or something.
Yes, it does. It's a tightrope that can be walked for a time, but the
rope is getting both slippery and slack. I remember when I first watched
this, wondering if they would forever Lois Lane this character until it
went well beyond stupidity.
I also find the negative movement in Joyce's character from "School
Hard" to here hard to swallow.
> At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
> notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
> high school and no real-life high schools?
Mine did this very thing, actually. Plenty of youthful carnage ensued,
and the school stank of eggs for days.
> Let me also take the opportunity to mention
> one thing I personally hate watching is conversations that happen a
> quarter-sentence at a time because the characters are just so
> impassioned that they have to kiss after every word.
As was already proposed, what really goes on isn't particularly
interesting to watch, because the dialogue is Cro-Magnon at best. People
don't really kiss in person like they do on TV, either; why accept one
conceit and reject the other? I'm not saying you're _wrong_, but I'm
saying that this issue is hardly _Buffy_-specific.
> Xander and Cordelia are in a thoroughly useless relationship anyway,
> especially given that it began with what I'll continue referring to
> as The Scene That Should Not Be until it catches on.
You know, I've finally rewatched up to the point you're now reviewing,
and I have to say that I think you're letting your antipathy for the
character of Cordelia blind you to some really nice work being done by
Charisma Carpenter. Looking at it more objectively, she's playing most
of these scenes pretty well (since "What's My Line?" especially), given
the setup the writers have presented her. Brendon is more variable, but
has moments.
As for the relationship, as presented it's purely hormonal. Xander's had
zero success, and think carefully about Cordelia: she's always talked a
really good game, but how much beyond talk have you actually seen?
Almost nothing. It's possible that she's just as frustrated as Xander.
Teen hormones make you do stupid things. And I have to say, though I was
indifferent to the pairing at the time (except that I was eager to see a
plot inevitability that I think you've missed, which was enough to
sustain my interest), viewed now it's kinda fun. Of course, it won't
remain fun if it doesn't go somewhere; the conceit that people who hate
each other can't stop hiding in closets and making out is briefly
amusing, but no more.
It's worth examining whether or not the hate is geniune. I'm not the
first to bring this up to you, but one might wonder how much of
Cordelia's brutal mocking is the persona she's already told us she
constructs. One might also wonder about Xander's motivations; we've
already seen that he doesn't always act well when his desires are
frustrated. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but it's a
thought I had at the time, and I think that in that context the
relationship might make more sense.
Finally, I think it might be time for you to re-evaluate Cordelia. Look
at how helpful she's been of late, to people she's repeatedly stated she
doesn't like. She bitches and whines (in character), but she gets the
job done and does the right thing. There's depths we didn't suspect, and
there's character growth; perhaps more than anyone else on the show so
far. That's good writing, and Cordelia is no longer quite the same
person you disliked at the beginning of season one (nor is she
unrecognizably different).
> Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
> relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
> dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
> I want is you." Until now, that is.
You missed something in that scene. Watch it again...especially the end,
from a visual standpoint.
> In the meantime, there's a silly plot involving insects taking
> control of people and making them part of the hive.
_Buffy_ sometimes does really interesting reworkings of classic horror
cliches ("The Puppet Show," or in fact the entire basis of the
series...and never forget the brilliant first scene of the series), but
this isn't one of them.
> The series really hasn't done well with giant bugs, has it?
No. Thankfully -- I'm going to spoil you here, but trust me when I say
you won't be upset about it -- you won't see them again.
> I think the word
> "impact" is the best word I can use to sum up the difference
> between a thoroughly ridiculous episode like "The Pack" and a
> thoroughly ridiculous episode like "Bad Eggs." I'm struck by how
> little impact any of this has for everyone, even compared to the
> standard monster-of-the-week episode.
I completely agree. The show moves Xander/Cordelia along a bit,
Joyce/Buffy along (though in a somewhat problematic way), but otherwise
it's all plot and no characterization. As I think should be becoming
ever more clear to you, on _Buffy_ the character _is_ the plot.
> It doesn't help that the plot is quite clumsily handled. As far as I
> can see, the egg things turned down two chances to infect Buffy (the
> bedroom and the closet).
The first chance (in the bedroom) was some sort of exploratory, prep the
victim thing; note the parallel reactions of Willow and Buffy the next
morning. The actual possession was supposed to happen later. Of course,
when convenient to the plot (the kid in the hallway) the exploratory
stage is missing. Bad writing.
> I'm completely baffled as to why threats
> like Buffy and Xander were left un-bugged while they were out cold.
Well, they weren't intended to remain un-bugged; that's why the eggs,
yet to hatch, were in the closet. Here's a fanwank that helps: the
characters maintained their own will when necessary, but ultimately were
taking orders from the mother Bazor, and she had no way of knowing the
threat that Buffy represented. To draw a parallel to another series,
it's like the Keepers on _B5_; control when necessary, free will when not.
> Yes, I know the hive left a few easily squishable eggs behind, but the
> scene outside the library (the kid who "trips")
Note that you've seen him twice before: the mummy's intended victim in
"Inca Mummy Girl" and Cordelia's date in "Reptile Boy."
> And then I'll admit that I was also confused originally
> as to why the mother insect suddenly died at the end. I kept saying to
> Mrs. Quality "I'm sure it'll be explained," and it wasn't.
> (Yes, from glancing at the script I now realize that Buffy grabbed a
> weapon on her way in, but I don't remember actually seeing it.
> I'll just blame Greenwalt since he makes a good target.)
I admit I'm surprised to see others missed this as well. As she's being
pulled in, she grabs a pickaxe sitting right next to the hole in the
floor. (My problem with the scene: why is her hair not covered in blue
goo? ;-) )
> 1) Xander's total contempt for the egg project is appreciated, and
> gives a few good lines ("You gotta keep it safe and teach it
> Christian values").
The girl in the front row -- his "partner" -- was especially cute. I
remember hoping we'd see her again. Oh well...
> 2) Greenwalt (and possibly Noxon) does actually deserve credit for some
> of the directing. The under-the-bed shots in the scene where Buffy
> kills her insect attacker make the sequence creepier than it has any
> right to be. And then that's immediately followed up by the best
> moment of the show - Buffy's chatting with Willow, who assures her
> that her egg is fine. The scene plays out naturally. We follow
> Willows' gaze over to the egg. It's broken. Absorb that for a
> second. Then we pan back to Willow. She's completely serene. This
> is the one instant where I believed that something scary, or at least
> worth watching, was going on.
This and the scenes in front of and the school, where we see that pretty
much everyone else is possessed, are very _Body Snatchers_, and I found
it impossible to not think of that movie (pick your version) while I
watched.
> D'ya think whichever Gorch survived took off because he had a morsel
> of decency/gratitude, or did he just realize that the odds were against
> him?
The latter.
> AOQ rating: Bad
Agreed.
Except for the one big honking visual thing you missed, a good review,
hitting most of the salient points.
Scythe Matters
> Even the police seemed interested in her, at least
> for this episode.
I meant the previous episode.
Daniel Damouth
news:aj69v1lc4g4d8md0h...@4ax.com:
> Lyle took off because he isn't the stupid brother (at least not as
> stupid as Tector). He'd just seen Buffy pick up a pickaxe, jump
> down the throat of a demon the approximate size of a house, and
> chop her way out from the inside, killing it in the process.
One of the few things I always enjoyed about this ep is that it
culminates in what is very nearly a three-way fight, with the egg
creatures, the Gorches, and Buffy.
I like three way fights. They're rare, and you never know what's going
to happen.
-Dan Damouth
Terry
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
>> notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
>> high school and no real-life high schools?
>
> Supposedly they now use computer-chipped baby dolls that cry and all,
> but again, I've only seen those on tv too.
Nope. Real life. My daughter gets one next year in health class.
>
>> I'll just blame Greenwalt since he makes a good target.)
>
> Blame Marti Noxon. Everybody else always has. :-)
I still do.
Terry
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> We also don't know at exactly what point the Bezoar egg got her, which
> could affect her behavior.
We do know when the Bezoar got Joyce. Giles put the offspring onto the
back of her neck when she came into the library looking for Buffy.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> > Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
>
> > The series really hasn't done well with giant bugs, has it?
>
> No. Thankfully -- I'm going to spoil you here, but trust me when I say
> you won't be upset about it -- you won't see them again.
Well, except for this one time...and that other time...
(Obk bs Tniebx ohtf, gur fcvqre qrzba guvat va 'Frysyrff')
> > It doesn't help that the plot is quite clumsily handled. As far as I
> > can see, the egg things turned down two chances to infect Buffy (the
> > bedroom and the closet).
>
> The first chance (in the bedroom) was some sort of exploratory, prep the
> victim thing; note the parallel reactions of Willow and Buffy the next
> morning. The actual possession was supposed to happen later. Of course,
> when convenient to the plot (the kid in the hallway) the exploratory
> stage is missing. Bad writing.
The first night the things were feeding while they matured. We were
shown that it happened. We didn't need to see it happen with all of
them. The ones that got to feed on the first night probably hatched
sooner, which was why Cordy's hatched later. (She didn't seem to be
feeling worn out like Buffy and Willow.)
>
> > I'm completely baffled as to why threats
> > like Buffy and Xander were left un-bugged while they were out cold.
>
> Well, they weren't intended to remain un-bugged; that's why the eggs,
> yet to hatch, were in the closet. Here's a fanwank that helps: the
> characters maintained their own will when necessary, but ultimately were
> taking orders from the mother Bazor, and she had no way of knowing the
> threat that Buffy represented. To draw a parallel to another series,
> it's like the Keepers on _B5_; control when necessary, free will when not.
>
> > Yes, I know the hive left a few easily squishable eggs behind, but the
> > scene outside the library (the kid who "trips")
>
> Note that you've seen him twice before: the mummy's intended victim in
> "Inca Mummy Girl" and Cordelia's date in "Reptile Boy."
Three times. Hostage boy for the police lady assassin in 'What's My
Line.' ("Was that a demonstration?") It was round about this point
that I started to predict that if Danny Strong's name ever appeared in
the credits at the *start* of an episode, Jonathan would die in it.
Sam
episodes of the series. The Gorches were sort of funny, but that's
about it.
If it makes you feel any better, the series is about to kick your ass
for the rest of the season.
--Sam
George W Harris
:ROT13:
:Jryy, gung jnf zhpu yngre.
:Jr nyy znxr zvfgnxrf. Orfvqrf, V'z bs gur fpubby ur ernyyl fgbccrq
:pnevat. LZZI. Fgvyy jnvgvat sbe gung HCA lrnef gryy nyy, juvpu V abj
:guvax V'yy arire yvir gb frr.
"Orpnhfr gurer'f abguvat gb gryy..."
:
:We've probably taken this further than presently necessary.
:
:Ken (Brooklyn)
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
kenm47
No. That's not it.
Ken (Brooklyn) :-)
Stephen Tempest
>Again, listen to her own words of her glee in not knowing anything
>about Buffy when she was hired and was doing her early writing for the
>show.
So, you got me curious enough to re-listen to her commentaries on
'What's My Line' Parts 1 & 2. I suspect these are the bits you were
remembering:
About the Order of Taraka:
>The villains in this particular piece are *highly* unusual [laughs]. That
>was one of the things that was pretty fun for me just starting off,
>because my background was actually not so much the supernatural realm,
>although I wrote a lot of stuff like that I tended to be more like, straight
>"suicide, drama, death and mayhem" kinda girl.
>When Joss said we were gonna have a villain who was made entirely of
>bugs I was pretty dubious [laughs again]... I didn't even understand
>what he was talking about. But he introduced me to a whole world of comic
>books and fantasy, and this was the beginning of that, where I learned to
>speak with the secret language of Joss: villains who were, y'know, made
>out of bugs and stuff like that.
Now, it doesn't seem to me as though she's _boasting_ about the fact
that she didn't know much about the SF/F genre before working on
'Buffy' - she's just not ashamed about it. And why should she be?
She's clearly enjoying herself now, though.
This quote might tread a bit nearer the line, though:
>And gosh, here we are in the library again [laughs]. As I recall,
>they're figuring out here the reason that Kendra is able to exist is
>that in a season 1 episode - I think it was the season 1 episode finale -
>I wasn't working on the show at that point so I don't really pay attention
> to what happened that first season, so I *hear* that Buffy drowned and,
>er, she died for a very small moment... she died for, like, two or three minutes
>and that, according to the Slayer Lore of Joss Whedon is enough time for the
>new Slayer to be called. I don't know if that was something that he had already
>thought about - the fact that there'd be another Slayer after Buffy died and then
>was revived; but he certainly figured it out later.
The bit about "I don't really pay attention to what happened that
first season" could sound pretty damning - but personally, I suspect a
touch of sarcastic self-deprecating humour here. You know, the thing
Joss Whedon is also famous for? Which could explain a lot about their
working relationship...
For one thing, her comment here is clearly untrue, because a few
minutes earlier she'd been comparing the events on screen to another
Season 1 episode, which she clearly remembered in some detail. As for
her sense of humour, I'm going to quote another example from her
commentary because it just struck me as amusing:
>I can't remember quite how we... We did something where there was a
>double-cross, and Sarah knew that Kendra was going to show up...
>You'll notice that I often go back between 'Sarah' and 'Buffy'; I have a
>bit of cognitive dissonance about character versus the actress... I really
>believe that Sarah Michelle Gellar goes and fights vampires after work.
>Which is probably good for the craft and a little bad for my personal psyche.
Now, I can just hear Joss making the same kind of joke. I can also
hear the more unreflective Marti-haters thinking she was being 100%
serious in her comments, and using that as more evidence why she
wasn't fit to be an Executive Producer...
These commentaries also show that - again like Joss - she thinks that
story and character motivation are much more important than strict
canon continuity. Witness:
>In this particular episode Drusilla is ailing, she's got some kind of
>mystical disease for which I can't quite remember what the cause is.
> I don't even know if there is a specific cause; but she's ill and they're
>desparately searching for a cure. And really we just did this to give Spike
>some major motivation... to give him a reason for wanting to be motivated
>through the episode and we figured they have this very strong relationship,
>even though they're creepy vampire types. So they have a very genuine
>affection between the two of them. And so Drusilla being ill would be a real
>strong motivation for him. So this is one of those things in the writing business
>that we, sort of, we would call a maguffin. Y'know, it seems like it's important
>but it's really just a reason to get characters moving and going along.
I can understand some people not liking that approach, but IMO it's
simply a matter of different people having different priorities in
their approach to art.
Stephen
- Incidentally, I can reiterate the warning to AoQ: Marti's commentary
does contain *major* spoilers for seasons 2, 3 and 4. It was clearly
recorded just as they were starting to write season 5, so would be
safe to listen to once past that point.
kenm47
annoying comments from her elsewhere, either on other commentaries or
in interviews that got linked to in the NG while the show was still
first run. And it was more than just how Joss would polish her scripts
and add the jokes or other clever bits of business.
If I drag those out of my subconscious, I'll let you know.
BTW, she is credited as the writer on some of my favorite episodes
(like the soon to be reached IOHEFY and BBaB), so I don't condemn
everything she touched. How much of those episodes are Joss rewrites, I
just do not know.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Scythe Matters
> Well, except for this one time...and that other time...
>
> (Obk bs Tniebx ohtf, gur fcvqre qrzba guvat va 'Frysyrff')
V sbetbg nobhg "Frysyrff," ohg gur Tniebx fcvqref nera'g "ovt" va gur
pbagrkg bs gur cenlvat znagvf naq Zbzzl Fyht.
In any case, they're done as central characters.
> The first night the things were feeding while they matured.
That would seem to be an assumption. It makes sense, but it's still an
assumption. In the analogy that I drew to B5, the victim had to be
prepared for the controller/parasite, which is why my
equally-unjustified assumption was different.
> We were
> shown that it happened. We didn't need to see it happen with all of
> them.
Oh, agreed, but why was no one else apparently as tired as Buffy and
Willow? Only theirs "fed" the night before? Not impossible, but implausible.
> The ones that got to feed on the first night probably hatched
> sooner, which was why Cordy's hatched later.
This is an assumption that rests on an assumption.
The point is that the one that got Jonathan was apparently in his locker
(alternate explanations: something he was carrying, or placed on him by
a passerby), and in any case wouldn't have "fed" (I'm going to call that
"pre-hatching") before. Ditto the one placed on Joyce. It's true that we
don't _know_ that they didn't pre-hatch (in Joyce's case, it would
definitely had to have been with someone else, as this was her first
possible encounter with the offspring), but that the onscreen evidence
suggests that they didn't. I think it's a fair fanwank that you're
constructing, but it's not in the episode, is it?
Bill Reid
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-B20ADB...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <9e6dnRixfrN0K2ne...@rcn.net>,
> Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
>
> > > The series really hasn't done well with giant bugs, has it?
> >
> > No. Thankfully -- I'm going to spoil you here, but trust me when I say
> > you won't be upset about it -- you won't see them again.
>
> Well, except for this one time...and that other time...
>
> (Obk bs Tniebx ohtf, gur fcvqre qrzba guvat va 'Frysyrff')
>
to rot-13 it, but think about a visitor from a far away place, about
three years from "now"...
Face it, the whole show was guys in Halloween masks, giant snakes,
giant bugs, re-animated stitch-faces, etc. Don't give the guy false hope
that those things will ever go away...he should just learn to enjoy
them, if only on an unintentionally hilarious level...
---
William Ernest Reid
Scythe Matters
> I don't know how to rot-13 it
As for your example...jnf gung n oht? V qba'g guvax vg jnf pyrne, fvapr
vg jnf na nyvra naq nyy. Naljnl, vg'f fbzrguvat V'q cersre gb sbetrg. ;-)
Thor
jil...@hotmail.com
Scythe Matters wrote:
> As for your example...jnf gung n oht? V qba'g guvax vg jnf pyrne, fvapr
> vg jnf na nyvra naq nyy. Naljnl, vg'f fbzrguvat V'q cersre gb sbetrg. ;-)
>
> Thor
Hmm. Vs lbh ersre gb gur Dhryybe, gung jnf rfgnoyvfurq nf n qrzba gung
qebcf qbja sebz gur fxl, lrf. Ohg ABG nf na nyvra.
bar...@shentel.net
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> > At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
> notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
> high school and no real-life high schools?
I got it in middle school as part of GATE, decided it was stupid and
just stopped going there for about a month.
JLB
kenm47
a lot weaker right about the middle. Yes, Joyce comes across as a
bigger pain in the butt then she should it seems.
Still, all in all, a silly fun MOTW standalone IMO. Xander and his egg
are funny And there is a lot of good spooky for at least the first half
and good musical score moving things along.
It ain't Shakespeare, but I still go with decent. There's fun to be had
(and yes, some very valid plot complaints)
One more thing:
"Joyce <sternly>: A little responsibility is all I ask. Honestly,
don't you ever think about anything besides boys and
clothes?
Buffy: Saving the world from vampires?
Joyce <crosses her arms and shakes her head>: I swear,
sometimes I don't know what goes on in your head."
ROT13
V unq sbetbggra guvf rkpunatr. VZB lrg nabgure rknzcyr chggvat gur yvr
gb gur "Abezny Ntnva" ergpba nobhg Ohssl orvat vafgvghgvbanyvmrq. Vs
Wblpr unq unq ure pbzzvggrq cer-Fhaalqnyr o/p Ohssl jnf frrvat
inzcverf, guvf pbzzrag fubhyq unir tbar bagb n zhpu ovttre gbqb.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
news:1140094248.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Save them for the responses.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
<snip>
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
For me this is the worst episode in the whole series. The only thing I like
about it is Cordelia - which is rather wasted on you I fear. ;-)
Of course that means everything looks up from here.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> (or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
> Save them for the responses.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
<snip>
> On the other hand, Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
> relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
> dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
> I want is you." Until now, that is.
One of your readers that link through my LJ made the best observation in
response to this comment, so I thought I'd pass it along to you.
(From: Frelling_tralk) Umm what? I actually liked B/A in Bad Eggs. How
can he say he has a problem with their dialogue
for the first time, and let "when I kiss you I want to die" pass???
Their entire relationship mostly consists of that type of cheesy melodrama,
yet he called their scenes in Reptile Boy a highlight. It's suddenly now
that he
has a problem with them? I don't get him
(I have to agree with her, I thought "When I kiss you I want to die" was
the lowest Buffy and Angel ever sunk with their dialogue)
>
<snip>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
>
> [Season Two so far:
> 1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
> 2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
> 3) "School Hard" - Decent
> 4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
> 5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
> 6) "Halloween" - Good
> 7) "Lie To Me" - Good
> 8) "The Dark Age" - Good
> 9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
> 10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
> 11) "Ted" - Excellent
> 12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad]
>
Scythe Matters
> Hmm. Vs lbh ersre gb gur Dhryybe, gung jnf rfgnoyvfurq nf n qrzba gung
> qebcf qbja sebz gur fxl, lrf. Ohg ABG nf na nyvra.
Nyvra jnf n wbxr; V fubhyq unir vapyhqrq na rzbgvpba. Rvgure jnl, V
qba'g guvax vg'f pyrne gung vg'f n oht, zhpu yrff n "ovt oht."
Scythe Matters
> One more thing:
>
> "Joyce <sternly>: A little responsibility is all I ask. Honestly,
> don't you ever think about anything besides boys and
> clothes?
> Buffy: Saving the world from vampires?
> Joyce <crosses her arms and shakes her head>: I swear,
> sometimes I don't know what goes on in your head."
>
> ROT13
> V unq sbetbggra guvf rkpunatr. VZB lrg nabgure rknzcyr chggvat gur yvr
> gb gur "Abezny Ntnva" ergpba nobhg Ohssl orvat vafgvghgvbanyvmrq. Vs
> Wblpr unq unq ure pbzzvggrq cer-Fhaalqnyr o/p Ohssl jnf frrvat
> inzcverf, guvf pbzzrag fubhyq unir tbar bagb n zhpu ovttre gbqb.
No encryption needed -- alternatively, she could have interpreted it as
classic teenage snark about some important issue. I'm not saying it's a
_reasonable_ interpretation, nor does it ease your pain over the
referenced matter ;-) , but it's possible.
Aside from that oft-fought battle, and back to things that mean
something to AoQ: this is twice (unless I'm forgetting another instance)
that Buffy has said something along these lines in front of Joyce; the
first being in "The Witch." I remember that when I first viewed this
episode, and thought about that connection; I started to wonder about
Joyce as a parent. I came from a reasonably similar single-parent
family, but I could only have dreamed that my mother was as oblivious to
the obvious as Joyce. (At least then; in retrospect I'm glad she
wasn't.) I began to wonder if the writers were trying to say something
here...if they were leading us towards some conclusion about Buffy and
the inherent stupidity of authority figures (possibly with Giles as the
contrast, or possibly not). I went galloping down all sorts of wrong
paths with these musings, but they were interesting at the time. Because
Joyce really _is_ parenting in a very haphazard way; sometimes strict,
sometimes so laissez-faire that you'd think Buffy was emancipated, and
often bewilderingly oblivious.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> There weren't baby Bezoars running around unattached. Basically, an egg
> was put in a position to form a bond with a person, then, when the baby
> Bezoar hatched, it would attach itself to that person. One egg, and baby
> Bezoar, per person. Buffy and Xander both killed theirs, Buffy being
> alerted by her spidey-sense and whacking her baby Bezoar, and Xander by
> pre-emptively hard boiling his egg so it wouldn't break (and couldn't
> hatch). Replacement eggs were provided but hadn't hatched when they woke
> up.
That doesn't expain Joyce being Bezoar-ified in the library.
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:1140094248.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> and Joyce (or with anything else about the show, but we'll start
> here). This I may be willing to chalk up to my disapproval of the
> device of Sunnydale Forgettyitis. It's just that with every episode,
> it gets a little harder to swallow the idea that Joyce is totally
> the show's in a bind with this character - she needs to stay
> oblivious and unfair to keep up the "parents just don't
> understand" portion of the show's central metaphor. She can't be
That is the worst aspect of the episode for me. Especially at the end where
Joyce buys the gas leak explanation but doesn't even consider it for a
moment as a justification for Buffy not having met her in the library. At
that point she is meant to be in unreasonable parent mode, beyond all hope
of credibility.
> One-sentence summary: Just... no.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
Well, certainly the story is lame, and there is frankly bad characterisation
of a key character (Joyce), but other Buffy episodes have and will combine
those elements without providing as much fun to distract you from that as
Bad Eggs does. When the story is a waste of time, you have to let the
characters that work, and the dialogue, provide the reason for watching.
Weak as it is, at least Bad Eggs has the Gorch brothers, Xander's tough love
approach to child rearing, and Cordelia's lesson on the negative
consequences of sex. I rate it as the 96th best BtVS episode, 18th best in
Season 2.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> That is the worst aspect of the episode for me. Especially at the end where
> Joyce buys the gas leak explanation but doesn't even consider it for a
> moment as a justification for Buffy not having met her in the library. At
> that point she is meant to be in unreasonable parent mode, beyond all hope
> of credibility.
But as far as Joyce knew, Buffy blew off her "go to the library, go
directly to the library" order before the "gas leak" even started.
Joyce being miffed by that is quite understandable.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > On the other hand, Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
> > relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
> > dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
> > I want is you." Until now, that is.
>
> One of your readers that link through my LJ made the best observation in
> response to this comment, so I thought I'd pass it along to you.
>
> (From: Frelling_tralk) Umm what? I actually liked B/A in Bad Eggs. How
> can he say he has a problem with their dialogue
> for the first time, and let "when I kiss you I want to die" pass???
>
> Their entire relationship mostly consists of that type of cheesy melodrama,
> yet he called their scenes in Reptile Boy a highlight. It's suddenly now
> that he
> has a problem with them? I don't get him
>
> (I have to agree with her, I thought "When I kiss you I want to die" was
> the lowest Buffy and Angel ever sunk with their dialogue)
But think of the context. It's not just a generic romance cliche.
Buffy is talking about how much her growing closeness with Angel is
scaring her. Nonetheless they're physically drifting towards each
other, he starts semi-flippantly talking about fairy tales. Buffy's
instincts kick in, and she lashes out with a meldramatic line and runs.
It fits the moment.
But the best B/A scenes so far, for my money, have been in SAR, LTM,
and WML1. And if you just want pure lovey-dovey sap, they had a nice
little moment in "Ted" too.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Scythe Matters wrote:
> Yes, it does. It's a tightrope that can be walked for a time, but the
> rope is getting both slippery and slack. I remember when I first watched
> this, wondering if they would forever Lois Lane this character until it
> went well beyond stupidity.
>
> I also find the negative movement in Joyce's character from "School
> Hard" to here hard to swallow.
Yeah. That probably would have inspired one of those "continuity"
rants you guys love so much if it weren't dulled by the fact that Joyce
didn't appear often in the episodes immediately after SH. i'd hoped
that their relationship would be a little different.
> As was already proposed, what really goes on isn't particularly
> interesting to watch, because the dialogue is Cro-Magnon at best. People
> don't really kiss in person like they do on TV, either; why accept one
> conceit and reject the other? I'm not saying you're _wrong_, but I'm
> saying that this issue is hardly _Buffy_-specific.
Passionate kissing exists outside of Holywood, and it even does make
those annoying slurpy sounds. Those conversations don't.
> > Buffy and Angel have (or had) a much more interesting
> > relationship going, one that only rarely felt the need to sink to
> > dialogue like "when I look into the future... all I see is you. All
> > I want is you." Until now, that is.
>
> You missed something in that scene. Watch it again...especially the end,
> from a visual standpoint.
I don't intend to watch that particular episode again, thanks. If you
want to elaborate on that point, though...
> To draw a parallel to another series,
> it's like the Keepers on _B5_; control when necessary, free will when not.
Just for future reference, I haven't seen B5 (beyond a few episodes
when it was first-run; didn't like it much) and might give it another
chance someday, so don't get too spoily. Thanks.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > can he say he has a problem with their dialogue
> > for the first time, and let "when I kiss you I want to die" pass???
> >
> > Their entire relationship mostly consists of that type of cheesy melodrama,
> > yet he called their scenes in Reptile Boy a highlight. It's suddenly now
> > that he
> > has a problem with them? I don't get him
> >
> > (I have to agree with her, I thought "When I kiss you I want to die" was
> > the lowest Buffy and Angel ever sunk with their dialogue)
>
> But think of the context. It's not just a generic romance cliche.
> Buffy is talking about how much her growing closeness with Angel is
> scaring her. Nonetheless they're physically drifting towards each
> other, he starts semi-flippantly talking about fairy tales. Buffy's
> instincts kick in, and she lashes out with a meldramatic line and runs.
> It fits the moment.
when they first kiss is when angel vamps out
there was a risk angel would lose control and feed on her
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
KenM47
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > (From: Frelling_tralk) Umm what? I actually liked B/A in Bad Eggs. How
>> > can he say he has a problem with their dialogue
>> > for the first time, and let "when I kiss you I want to die" pass???
>> >
>> > Their entire relationship mostly consists of that type of cheesy melodrama,
>> > yet he called their scenes in Reptile Boy a highlight. It's suddenly now
>> > that he
>> > has a problem with them? I don't get him
>> >
>> > (I have to agree with her, I thought "When I kiss you I want to die" was
>> > the lowest Buffy and Angel ever sunk with their dialogue)
>>
>> But think of the context. It's not just a generic romance cliche.
>> Buffy is talking about how much her growing closeness with Angel is
>> scaring her. Nonetheless they're physically drifting towards each
>> other, he starts semi-flippantly talking about fairy tales. Buffy's
>> instincts kick in, and she lashes out with a meldramatic line and runs.
>> It fits the moment.
>
>when they first kiss is when angel vamps out
>there was a risk angel would lose control and feed on her
>
Yes, but the "die" line. No one thinks about that Angel IS dead; she's
saying she wants to be with him in death, be a vampire not a vampire
slayer.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Bill Reid
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
news:w8WdnXXfIsxX3Wje...@rcn.net...
Oh, it SOOOOOO was a ovt oht, it was a oht and you know it,
you're just being silly saying it wasn't a ovt oht! Just admit it was
a ovt oht!!!
---
William Ernest Reid
Apteryx
> In article <U5cJf.150843$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>
>> That is the worst aspect of the episode for me. Especially at the end
>> where
>> Joyce buys the gas leak explanation but doesn't even consider it for a
>> moment as a justification for Buffy not having met her in the library. At
>> that point she is meant to be in unreasonable parent mode, beyond all
>> hope
>> of credibility.
>
> But as far as Joyce knew, Buffy blew off her "go to the library, go
> directly to the library" order before the "gas leak" even started.
> Joyce being miffed by that is quite understandable.
Well I'm not staying that Buffy could have made the gas leak defence stick,
just that Joyce is awfully quick to dismiss it. Joyce was supposedly
overcome by gas within about a minute of arriving at the library, so
obviously gas had been persent there for some time before her arrival. That
leaves Buffy with 3 lines of gas leak defence:
1) That she had gone to library, but had been overcome by gas and was lying
somewhere unseen by Joyce or Giles
2) That she had been overcome by gas on her way to the library
3) That she had been to the library, noticed gas (but had not seen Giles nor
been seen by him) and had gone for help
Even apart from not allowing Buffy to present her defence, both Buffy and
Joyce have narrowly escaped death in this "gas leak", and Joyce is
surprisingly quick to move on from that fact to a mere disciplinary
infraction.
--
Apteryx
vague disclaimer
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Yes (although I very much doubt she was thinking that literally).
People remember, she is still only 16.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
kenm47
and
Joyce have narrowly escaped death in this "gas leak", and Joyce is
surprisingly quick to move on from that fact to a mere disciplinary
infraction."
Being possessed by Bezoar spawn leaves middle age pre-menstrual
females excessively cranky.
You can look it up!
Ken (Brooklyn)
Stephen Tempest
>"Joyce <sternly>: A little responsibility is all I ask. Honestly,
>don't you ever think about anything besides boys and
>clothes?
>Buffy: Saving the world from vampires?
>Joyce <crosses her arms and shakes her head>: I swear,
>sometimes I don't know what goes on in your head."
>
>ROT13
>V unq sbetbggra guvf rkpunatr. VZB lrg nabgure rknzcyr chggvat gur yvr
>gb gur "Abezny Ntnva" ergpba nobhg Ohssl orvat vafgvghgvbanyvmrq. Vs
>Wblpr unq unq ure pbzzvggrq cer-Fhaalqnyr o/p Ohssl jnf frrvat
>inzcverf, guvf pbzzrag fubhyq unir tbar bagb n zhpu ovttre gbqb.
Two words:
Sunnydale forgettyitis.
It's already been established that Joyce suffers from it as badly as
any other resident of the town, if not worse.
Orfvqrf, V gubhtug gung being sent to a clinic for _observation_ is
different to being institutionalised/committed... and neither of those
latter two words were used in 'Normal Again'. So the doctor at the
clinic presumably said to Joyce and Hank, "Your daughter is very
imaginative, but she can distinguish between fantasy and reality well
enough, so don't worry about it. Lots of teenage girls fantasize
about vampires... she'll grow out of it in time."
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Yes, but the "die" line. No one thinks about that Angel IS dead; she's
>saying she wants to be with him in death, be a vampire not a vampire
>slayer.
I've always been unsure what exactly she meant by that line. Is it:
1) I want to be a vampire, like you? (as you suggest)
2) The moment I kiss you is so perfect, I never want anything to
happen afterwards, because it'd only be a let-down.
3) Teenage hyperbole: "Couldn't you just _die_?"
4) You're such a bad kisser I'd rather die than have to do it again.
(um... probably not that one).
Stephen
jil...@hotmail.com
kenm47 wrote:
> "Joyce <sternly>: A little responsibility is all I ask. Honestly,
> don't you ever think about anything besides boys and
> clothes?
> Buffy: Saving the world from vampires?
> Joyce <crosses her arms and shakes her head>: I swear,
> sometimes I don't know what goes on in your head."
>
> ROT13
> V unq sbetbggra guvf rkpunatr. VZB lrg nabgure rknzcyr chggvat gur yvr
> gb gur "Abezny Ntnva" ergpba nobhg Ohssl orvat vafgvghgvbanyvmrq. Vs
> Wblpr unq unq ure pbzzvggrq cer-Fhaalqnyr o/p Ohssl jnf frrvat
> inzcverf, guvf pbzzrag fubhyq unir tbar bagb n zhpu ovttre gbqb.
But Ken....
V'ir pbafvqrerq gung bar pna svg gung onpx va jvgu n pnershy
nccyvpngvba bs: "Jul, Wblpr qvq abg unir Ohssl pbzzvggrq. Vg jnf ure
sngure, naq Wblpr jnf fb hcfrg bire vg gung guvf jnf bar bs gur penpxf
va gurve eryngvbafuvc gung qrfgeblrq ure zneevntr."
jil...@hotmail.com
kenm47 wrote:
> ROT13
> V unq sbetbggra guvf rkpunatr. VZB lrg nabgure rknzcyr chggvat gur yvr
> gb gur "Abezny Ntnva" ergpba nobhg Ohssl orvat vafgvghgvbanyvmrq. Vs
> Wblpr unq unq ure pbzzvggrq cer-Fhaalqnyr o/p Ohssl jnf frrvat
> inzcverf, guvf pbzzrag fubhyq unir tbar bagb n zhpu ovttre gbqb.
Shegurezber, npghnyyl vs V jrer Wblpr, V'q guvax Ohssl jnf gelvat gb
trg zr gb rnfr hc ol erzvaqvat zr bs zl thvyg bire univat ure chg va
gung cynpr.
kenm47
V'ir pbafvqrerq gung bar pna svg gung onpx va jvgu n pnershy
nccyvpngvba bs: 'Jul, Wblpr qvq abg unir Ohssl pbzzvggrq. Vg jnf ure
sngure, naq Wblpr jnf fb hcfrg bire vg gung guvf jnf bar bs gur penpxf
V jvyy arire ohl gur AN ergpba. Gur bayl jnl vg jbexf ng nyy jvgu nyy
jr'ir frra vf, nf fbzrbar ryfr fhttrfgrq, vs rirlguvau jr'ir frra vf
abg arprffnevyl bcrenoyr orpnhfr bs gur Qnja fcryy.
Va guvf pnfr, jvgu gung xvaq bs uvfgbel, bar pbhyq unir rkcrpgrq zhpu
ovttre ernpgvbaf sebz Wblpr urer naq va Jvgpu.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
Well, if not a vampire per se, or maybe a "good" one like Angel, at
least undead immortality with him.
That was my read then and now. Yes, a teenager's vow of endless love.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
1) Grq qvqa'g xabj gur tvey unq orra pbzzvgrq. Rira vs Wblpr unq gbyq
uvz rirelguvat nobhg ure cevqr, gur qnhtugre, guvf unq abg orra gbyq.
Nsgre nyy, fbzr rqvgvat ner oryvrirq gb or BX sbe tveyf, evtug?
2) Wblpr ybirq ure qnhtugre, naq whfg vtaberq gur inzcver fynlvaot gnyx
va Onq Rttf naq Jvgpu...
Ubjrire, V nz sbe gur Qnja-irefr ceboyrz pnzc. V qvq srry vg jnf
boivbhfyl n ergpba va Abezny Ntnva. Gur ernpgvba va Orpbzvat ner
vaperqvoyr zhpu uneqre gb trg njnl sebz guna rvgure Jvgpu be Onq Rttf.
--
Espen
You gonna kill me if I tell you the moon is _not_ a green cheese?
Because I hurt your feelings?
kenm47
Gunaxf. V unira'g tbggra hc gb er-jngpuvat (ntnva) Orpbzvat dhvgr lrg.
V thrff lbh'er ersreevat gb Wblpr orvat yrg va ba gur Fynlre ohfvarff.
Bs pbhefr, V guvax lbh'er evtug.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
You mock Buffy?
The poor girl feels her world are in ruins. She cannot handle not being
allowed to love him by her own conscience?
really, it's a great line... she tells him how little she is able to
cope with the world? I don't find the words at all..
Actually, I end up close to your point two.
Spoiler for Spin of Angel, season two:
rcvfbqr guvegrra, anzryl unccl naavirefnel . Gur obl jnagf gb fgbc gur
gvzr: ur vf unccl , ur qbrfa'g arrq gur jbeyq gb tb cnfg guvf cbvag,
orpnhfr vg pna bayl or jbefr guna guvf zbzrag-guvat.
Gelvat gb abg sbyybj pncvgnyvmngvba pbairagvba urer, gb cebgrpg zl ___13!
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Espen Schjønberg
> Of course, I think you're right
;-)
And another good point from me;-), with some encryption though.
Gur ernyyl naablvat guvat jvgu gur qnjalirefr vf, abj rirelguvat vf
yrtny. Ab reebe pna or qbar, vg vf arire n ergpba, bayl onq zhaxvat.
(Zhaxvat? Zhax-fcryyf lbh xabj? ;-))
Fheryl, v ungrq gur snpg gur jevgref gubhtug gurl pbhyq punatr gur
jbeyq. v jvyy pbzr onpx gb guvf nsgre gur jvfu, be cbffvoyl nsgre ohss
sbhaq bhg va frnfba svir.
--
Lbh tbaan xvyy zr vs v gryy lbh gur zbba vf _abg_ n terra purrfr?
Orpnhfr gung uhegf lbhe srryvatf? Naq _v_ arrq gb fubj fbzr erfcrpg?
Lrnu. Lbh jvyy trg gur xvaq bs erfcrpg cflpubf trg...
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> > 2) The moment I kiss you is so perfect, I never want anything to
> > happen afterwards, because it'd only be a let-down.
> >
> > 3) Teenage hyperbole: "Couldn't you just _die_?"
> >
I think a combination of these two (probably 2) to the power of 3)).
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >"Joyce <sternly>: A little responsibility is all I ask. Honestly,
> >don't you ever think about anything besides boys and
> >clothes?
> >Buffy: Saving the world from vampires?
> >Joyce <crosses her arms and shakes her head>: I swear,
> >sometimes I don't know what goes on in your head."
> >
> >ROT13
> >V unq sbetbggra guvf rkpunatr. VZB lrg nabgure rknzcyr chggvat gur yvr
> >gb gur "Abezny Ntnva" ergpba nobhg Ohssl orvat vafgvghgvbanyvmrq. Vs
> >Wblpr unq unq ure pbzzvggrq cer-Fhaalqnyr o/p Ohssl jnf frrvat
> >inzcverf, guvf pbzzrag fubhyq unir tbar bagb n zhpu ovttre gbqb.
>
> Two words:
> Sunnydale forgettyitis.
>
> It's already been established that Joyce suffers from it as badly as
> any other resident of the town, if not worse.
>
> Orfvqrf, V gubhtug gung
snip rot-13 failure
Scythe Matters
> Passionate kissing exists outside of Holywood, and it even does make
> those annoying slurpy sounds. Those conversations don't.
Yes, but the scenes aren't much worth filming if they're just slurpy.
Once is enough, but to move the story along there has to be dialogue.
That's sort of the point. It's -- I know you hate this phrase -- one of
those TV conventions one just has to accept...like the _way_ people kiss
on film, which is not how they kiss in person. (Well, unless they don't
like each other all that much.)
>>You missed something in that scene. Watch it again...especially the end,
>>from a visual standpoint.
>
> I don't intend to watch that particular episode again, thanks. If you
> want to elaborate on that point, though...
It's just the one scene. But:
Angel: (swallows) You really don't care what happens a year from now?
Five years from now?
Buffy: Angel, when I look into the future, a-a... all I see is you! All
I want is you.
Angel: I know the feeling.
He reaches down to kiss her. He finds her lips and she responds. They
kiss more and more passionately. The camera pans away from them and
across a gravestone that reads 'In Loving Memory'.
> Just for future reference, I haven't seen B5 (beyond a few episodes
> when it was first-run; didn't like it much) and might give it another
> chance someday, so don't get too spoily.
Will do. Or won't. Whatever. ;-)
Scythe Matters
> Oh, it SOOOOOO was a ovt oht, it was a oht and you know it,
> you're just being silly saying it wasn't a ovt oht! Just admit it was
> a ovt oht!!!
Is there a test later?
Steve Schaffner
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > Passionate kissing exists outside of Holywood, and it even does make
> > those annoying slurpy sounds. Those conversations don't.
Hey, speak for yourself. My conversations often make annoying slurpy
sounds.
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
Dave Oldridge
> 2) Greenwalt (and possibly Noxon) does actually deserve credit for some
> of the directing. The under-the-bed shots in the scene where Buffy
> kills her insect attacker make the sequence creepier than it has any
> right to be. And then that's immediately followed up by the best
> moment of the show - Buffy's chatting with Willow, who assures her
> that her egg is fine. The scene plays out naturally. We follow
> Willows' gaze over to the egg. It's broken. Absorb that for a
> second. Then we pan back to Willow. She's completely serene. This
> is the one instant where I believed that something scary, or at least
> worth watching, was going on.
Joyce tries to hit Buffy with a pickaxe. Buffy grabs it as she is pulled
in.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
Clairel
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> > (or "It is my goal to write a review containing no egg puns at all.
> > Save them for the responses.")
> > Writer: Marti Noxon
> > Director: David Greenwalt
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Just... no.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Bad
> >
>
> I've always considered 'Ted' and 'Bad Eggs' to be speedbumps on the
> road to Buffy goodness. I was a bit surprised you rated 'Ted' as
> excellent but at least it had John Ritter going for it. 'Bad Eggs' name
> fits it well. It simply stunk.
--I never understood why "Bad Eggs" was such a hated episode. I like
it at least as well as I like "Ted," or better. I don't rewatch either
of them very often. But "Bad Eggs" was fun and had the Gorch brothers,
whom I find so very, very amusing.
I can't believe this is the first episode AOQ has ever rated as "Bad."
There are so many worse ones that he called "weak" or "decent" or
something of a mediocre nature. How can anybody hate "Bad Eggs"?
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> --I never understood why "Bad Eggs" was such a hated episode. I like
> it at least as well as I like "Ted," or better.
[shell-shocked silence]
> I don't rewatch either
> of them very often. But "Bad Eggs" was fun and had the Gorch brothers,
> whom I find so very, very amusing.
>
> I can't believe this is the first episode AOQ has ever rated as "Bad."
> There are so many worse ones that he called "weak" or "decent" or
> something of a mediocre nature. How can anybody hate "Bad Eggs"?
Well, reading through the thread and seeing the kinds of explanations
people are giving is the best way to try to make sense of it. But
sometimes one's just in the minority opinion and can't understand
what's up with the rest of the world, you know?
-AOQ
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Clairel wrote:
>
> > --I never understood why "Bad Eggs" was such a hated episode. I like
> > it at least as well as I like "Ted," or better.
>
> [shell-shocked silence]
--Returning your shell-shocked silence back atcha, with regard to your
giving "Ted" an equal ranking to that of "Innocence," and a higher
ranking than that of "Passion." "Passion" is one of the all-time
greats, infinitely rewatchable and rewarding; "Ted" is an episode I
never feel like rewatching.
> > I don't rewatch either
> > of them very often. But "Bad Eggs" was fun and had the Gorch brothers,
> > whom I find so very, very amusing.
> >
> > I can't believe this is the first episode AOQ has ever rated as "Bad."
> > There are so many worse ones that he called "weak" or "decent" or
> > something of a mediocre nature. How can anybody hate "Bad Eggs"?
>
> Well, reading through the thread and seeing the kinds of explanations
> people are giving is the best way to try to make sense of it. But
> sometimes one's just in the minority opinion and can't understand
> what's up with the rest of the world, you know?
--You're certainly in that situation re: "Passion." I will never
understand how you can rank "Ted" above "Passion."
Clairel
James Craine
Scythe Matters wrote:
>
> Aside from that oft-fought battle, and back to things that mean
> something to AoQ: this is twice (unless I'm forgetting another instance)
> that Buffy has said something along these lines in front of Joyce; the
> first being in "The Witch." I remember that when I first viewed this
> episode, and thought about that connection; I started to wonder about
> Joyce as a parent. I came from a reasonably similar single-parent
> family, but I could only have dreamed that my mother was as oblivious to
> the obvious as Joyce. (At least then; in retrospect I'm glad she
> wasn't.) I began to wonder if the writers were trying to say something
> here...if they were leading us towards some conclusion about Buffy and
> the inherent stupidity of authority figures (possibly with Giles as the
> contrast, or possibly not). I went galloping down all sorts of wrong
> paths with these musings, but they were interesting at the time. Because
> Joyce really _is_ parenting in a very haphazard way; sometimes strict,
> sometimes so laissez-faire that you'd think Buffy was emancipated, and
> often bewilderingly oblivious.
I think that Joyce was supposed to be a distant ineffective
parent. I have thought that ever since this scene: Buffy
comes in late after slaying. Joyce, "Do you know what time
it is?". Buffy, "About 10:00." Joyce, "Oh, darn, my watched
stopped again." Joyce was clearly unconcerned about her
daughters late hours. I figured she was supposed to be a
'power mom' who didn't have time for Buffy so she assumed
that Buffy could take care of herself. I find all of this
believeable since there really are extremely neglectful
parents. Also, it has to be this way since no attentive
parent would let her child come and go as Buffy does. Joyce
had to be a poor parent for the plots to work.
PS. I think the above scene was in WTTH, but it could have
been the movie.
PPS. I assume that the 'thing' that chooses the next slayer
took Joyces absense into account.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> been the movie.
movie
i believe its on buffys first night out
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
William George Ferguson
wrote:
The movie, tv joyce was in serious denial, but was never that lenient.
Buffy's Mom: "Do you know what time it is?"
Buffy: "Uh, about 10."
Buffy's Mom: "I knew this thing was slow. You pay a fortune for
something..., [yelling upstairs to father] Honey come on, we're going to
be late."
and later
Buffy's Mom: "Bye bye, Bobby."
Pike: "She thinks my name is Bobby?"
Buffy: "It's possible she thinks My name is Bobby."
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Don Sample
Buffy's mom was never actually named in the movie. (Or in any of the
dialogue during the first season of the series. First time anyone says
her name is in 'School Hard' when she introduces herself to Snyder.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-CC52A4...@news.giganews.com...
rumors that he wished to "disown" it. Any truth to that?
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> rumors that he wished to "disown" it. Any truth to that?
theres a script floating around in the ether that purports to be the original
the dialog is close to what is seen for the most part
(merrick evolves more laish in dress and speech
and he puts a pistol in his mouth to prevent being turned
buffy watches from a distance instead of being next to him
lothos overall being nastier and less bela lugosi)
so it might be more how the script was presented
and things like paul reubens antics
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-405E1...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > What's Joss' views on the movie? Does he still consider it "canon"? I read
> > rumors that he wished to "disown" it. Any truth to that?
I've never heard that he wanted to disown it. He wasn't entirely happy
with some of the changes that were made during production.
>
> theres a script floating around in the ether that purports to be the original
> the dialog is close to what is seen for the most part
> (merrick evolves more laish in dress and speech
> and he puts a pistol in his mouth to prevent being turned
> buffy watches from a distance instead of being next to him
>
> lothos overall being nastier and less bela lugosi)
The script also matches up with the novelization that was done for the
original movie, which was based on Joss's original script.
A couple of things that were in the script that got taken out of the
movie, Joss recycled in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth.' His script
introduced Lothos by having him rise up out of a pool of blood, so Joss
introduced the Master that way. The script also had the "You forgot
about sunrise." ... "It's in about nine hours, moron." gag in it.
>
> so it might be more how the script was presented
> and things like paul reubens antics
Joss actually liked Reubens. If Reubens wanted to change a line, he'd
come talk to Joss about it. Sutherland just changed his lines, often
into things that made no sense.