AOQ Review 7-18: "Dirty Girls"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
(or "Guest star parade!")
Writer: Drew Goddard
Director: Michael Gershman
Start with a girl getting chased through the woods. Sometimes the
classics keep on giving. She quickly runs into Nathan Fillion, who
took me a little while to even recognize, and he's a suitably
disturbing take on the Evil Preacher type, especially after we learn
that he staged the 'Bringer attack in the first place. The next car
contains, as I'd hoped, Willow and an ATS character. Even better,
it's Faith. Special Guest Stars abound.
Faith, well, I can't talk as completely about her as I'd like given
that I don't know the middle part of this story yet. (I see what
people are saying about how BTVS tells us just what we need to know for
the story being told about what's been happening on the other show.
_Angel_ watchers will probably appreciate the little nods, while I feel
like I'm not at all clear on any of the details of what's been
happening, and look forward to finding out.) But speaking as someone
who hasn't seen her in almost three years of TV time: well met, glad
you could be part of all the Slayer fun. She looks, appropriately,
worn out, like the prison and whatever else have aged her some. And
the voice suggests even before the show goes ahead and proves it that
the character has picked up the actor's chain-smoking ways.
So, Faith's all about the good now, and so secure in that that she
has to constantly remind herself and anyone who'll listen. Her
scenes tend to go well, with it being almost as hard to get into her
mind as ever, and Buffy able to take her in but having to devote mental
energy to accepting her. Seems about right. The whole cemetery
sequence with all the mistaken identity is full of breezy dialogue
("are you the bad Slayer now? Am I the good Slayer now?"
"He's with me. He has a soul." "Oh, he's like Angel?"
"*No*") and... well, I don't know if it says a lot, but it
implies a lot. The part I'll remember most is the basement exchange
with Spike - they're similar personality types who've been
paralleled before. The mix of stuff about violence with the
near-constant sexual tension makes for unusual watching, hard to
process right away. Some continuity porn with the verbatim repetition
of the dialogue from "Who Are You?" - not something that Spike
would forget easily, especially coming from "Buffy," but now it
seems like the distant past, so maybe that's why he doesn't react
too strongly to learning The Rest Of The Story. You know what else
seems to say something about how subdued the show is at this point in
the face of the greater threat? The fact that Buffy walks downstairs
and sees her ex-lover and another ex-nemesis sitting on the bed in
various states of undress, cigarettes in their mouths. Her response?
A single pointed "well, it's nice to see you two getting along so
well," and then back to work. The way people behave on this show,
particularly in the later seasons, definitely changes based on what's
happening.
I wonder if Dawn actually got to know the new Slayer back in the
rewritten version of S3, or whether the hostility is mostly
second-hand.
The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny. Same reaction to
Andrew turning to Xander for support on the important issue of when
Godzilla is or isn't a Godzilla.
Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS,
I guess. I can see the complaint, but I'm willing to let the show
take a little time to establish or hint at where exactly his mindset
fits into the First's world, why girls are "dirty" and whether
that applies more for MC500 girls. On the one hand, he's a more
interesting enemy than the 'Bringers as far as doing the First's
physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
magic hammer. As far as the actual content of his scenes with
First/Buffy, they do tend to go on and on and not, on first viewing,
make a tremendous deal of sense. And the part about reenacting past
triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
saying 'EVIL'" kind of way. He's still a creepy fellow,
though. And any character who muses about making white wine out of
Jesus's lymph deserves some screen time.
With Buffy being fired and all the storylines moving away from SHS, it
seems like the school will have less of a part in the shape of the
season than it seemed. She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
be taking his advice so openly.
As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
others. Help the girls who still need a teacher." That has some
ouch factor, though even there the hostility is pretty muted.
Xander's speech about trust in Buffy is a touching moment, but I
think they overdid it with having everyone get tearful. It's not
*that* amazing, guys; save that for when it's needed. It serves its
purpose quite well from a dramatic standpoint, though. You have this
kind of rousing moment, and then you tear it down with the subsequent
action.
That subsequent action is chaotic in a good way, and has some very good
stuff in it. It plays with the viewer's mind a little. Buffy's
marshaled up a nice looking force, with Willow being a contingency plan
for the ever-popular "lure the heroes away" school of villainy.
Then we run into Caleb, and he casually sends our hero flying all the
way across the room. In addition to all the danger and such, after
having seen the room full of uncertain girls, one is conscious of the
way this makes Buffy look bad. Then having no one else fare any better
makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
There've been several times over the years when the writers have
resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
despite that, this one feels fresh.
Kind of a funny story that shows where pseudo-spoilers can lead: I've
known for a long time that there would be an episode called "Dirty
Girls" which would make it seem appropriate that Xander played
Oedipus in "The Puppet Show." So I've been waiting for him to
kill his father or somehow screw a reincarnation of his mother for a
long time; getting poked in the eye didn't occur to me at all.
So...
One-sentence summary: Uneven, but it'll wash.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good
12) "Potential" - Good
13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
14) "First Date" - Decent
15) "Get It Done" - Decent
16) "Storyteller" - Good
17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
18) "Dirty Girls" - Good]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
bad grrls bad grrls
whacha gonna do
whacha gonna do when they come for you
bad grrls bad grrls
whacha gonna do
dirty girls is filmed with cooperation of the girls and women of slayer central
where all demons are presumed guilty until proven ensouled
bad grrls bad grrls
> (or "Guest star parade!")
theyre baaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaack
> energy to accepting her. Seems about right. The whole cemetery
> sequence with all the mistaken identity is full of breezy dialogue
> ("are you the bad Slayer now? Am I the good Slayer now?"
theres also the casual -whack- oh faith i didnt recognize you
i guess slayer conversations are different from normal conversations
> The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny. Same reaction to
> Andrew turning to Xander for support on the important issue of when
> Godzilla is or isn't a Godzilla.
poor xander wants to be cool
but andrew keeps pulling him back to his nerd roots
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS,
it makes sense tehere would be someone like him working for the first
someone who looks and talks like a normal human
and can interact with other humans
bringers are blunt object and not everybody can be daunted or controled by ghosts
> physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
> fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
> unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
if they figure out a way to cut caleb down to size
the first evil will remain unique and noncoorporeal
> make a tremendous deal of sense. And the part about reenacting past
> triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
> saying 'EVIL'" kind of way. He's still a creepy fellow,
> though. And any character who muses about making white wine out of
> Jesus's lymph deserves some screen time.
whether you care for the feminist themes
caleb is presented as the male oppressor of women writ large
its also about ways men objectifying women
xander callisto and the pillow fight
andrew and the vulcans and faith
caleb and his dirty girls
> way this makes Buffy look bad. Then having no one else fare any better
> makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
> cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
> is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
it is the lt gorman style attack (from aliens)
rush all your forces into a confined space
with no easy retreat and while facing superior forces
get your side decimated
the problem is faith and buffy are thinking like slayers
and put the potentials in a situation beyond their strength
stirring speeches only go so far
> the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
> the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
> There've been several times over the years when the writers have
> resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
> despite that, this one feels fresh.
also recall throughout the seaon how many times attacks have been against eyes
and eyes have been mentioned
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Xander, who's managed to survive being in
> the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
> the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
You know, one thing no one but Buffy seems able to remember of our
characters is that The First Evil is able to LISTEN and WATCH what
they're doing and saying!
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> (or "Guest star parade!")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> Start with a girl getting chased through the woods. Sometimes the
> classics keep on giving. She quickly runs into Nathan Fillion, who
> took me a little while to even recognize, and he's a suitably
> disturbing take on the Evil Preacher type, especially after we learn
> that he staged the 'Bringer attack in the first place.
My first comment about Caleb after this aired: "By the end of his
first scene, I was going, 'Somebody kill this SOB just to shut him up!!'
Like a lot of RL TV preachers, the man is *way* too much in love with
hearing himself talk..."
>
> I wonder if Dawn actually got to know the new Slayer back in the
> rewritten version of S3, or whether the hostility is mostly
> second-hand.
>
Why, of course they knew each other in the Dawnverse - notice that Faith
doesn't seem to wonder in the least who the "brat" who's "all grown up" is.
>
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next.
What, he doesn't do enough of that himself?
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Malsperanza
Or, to put it another way: writ badly. ;-)
There was a lot I liked about this episode, but Caleb was straight out
of Central Casting. Did he *have* to be a Christian minister? Did he
*have* to have a southern accent? I'm no fan of religious fanatics or
dogmatic fundamentalists, but this caricature looked like every other
cheesy TV-land attempt to create a rillyrillyevil badguy without
actually having to come up with a characterization. He's so obviously a
straw man.
Drove me nuts.
> > the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> > doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
> > the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
> > There've been several times over the years when the writers have
> > resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
> > despite that, this one feels fresh.
>
> also recall throughout the season how many times attacks have been against eyes
> and eyes have been mentioned
Starting with the Biloxi Demon. Once you know what happens to Xander,
it's interesting to go back and see just how often the idea of looking,
seeing, and watching is mentioned, and in what contexts. Interesting
that it's Xander who gets the nod from the First, not Giles (the
putative Watcher). A sign, perhaps, of how marginal Giles already is in
this fight.
~Mal
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
>(or "Guest star parade!")
>Writer: Drew Goddard
>Director: Michael Gershman
>The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
>the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
>using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny. Same reaction to
>Andrew turning to Xander for support on the important issue of when
>Godzilla is or isn't a Godzilla.
Faith would so kick Spock's ass...
[big snip]
>That subsequent action is chaotic in a good way, and has some very good
>stuff in it. It plays with the viewer's mind a little. Buffy's
>marshaled up a nice looking force, with Willow being a contingency plan
>for the ever-popular "lure the heroes away" school of villainy.
>Then we run into Caleb, and he casually sends our hero flying all the
>way across the room. In addition to all the danger and such, after
>having seen the room full of uncertain girls, one is conscious of the
>way this makes Buffy look bad. Then having no one else fare any better
>makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
>cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
>is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
>the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
>doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
>the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
>There've been several times over the years when the writers have
>resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
>despite that, this one feels fresh.
There has been, and certainly will be, a large discussion about Buffy's
plan in invading the winery. I'll get my take in early (sort of a
pre-emptive strike). It was a good plan, given what Buffy knew. It failed
horribly, but that was due to factors which Buffy didn't and couldn't
anticipate. As you note, she provided protection in case it was a
misdirect (it took her seven seasons, but she's finally not falling for
that one every time), she took in a large enough force, including another
heavy hitter, to handle most things, and set up a backup force to provide
what seemed to be overwhelming numbers in case of the unexpected. She
didn't anticipate a foe that was individually much stronger than the
ubervamps, there was no reason she should have, if Lurky had that kind
hench-power, surely it would have used it against them already.
>Kind of a funny story that shows where pseudo-spoilers can lead: I've
>known for a long time that there would be an episode called "Dirty
>Girls" which would make it seem appropriate that Xander played
>Oedipus in "The Puppet Show." So I've been waiting for him to
>kill his father or somehow screw a reincarnation of his mother for a
>long time; getting poked in the eye didn't occur to me at all.
So, were you spoiled about Faith (since you come from Firefly fandom, I'm
assuming you knew that Captain Tightpants was going to show up sometime)?
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> So, Faith's all about the good now, and so secure in that that she
> has to constantly remind herself and anyone who'll listen. Her
> scenes tend to go well, with it being almost as hard to get into her
> mind as ever, and Buffy able to take her in but having to devote mental
> energy to accepting her. Seems about right. The whole cemetery
> sequence with all the mistaken identity is full of breezy dialogue
> ("are you the bad Slayer now? Am I the good Slayer now?"
> "He's with me. He has a soul." "Oh, he's like Angel?"
> "*No*") and... well, I don't know if it says a lot, but it
> implies a lot. The part I'll remember most is the basement exchange
> with Spike - they're similar personality types who've been
> paralleled before. The mix of stuff about violence with the
> near-constant sexual tension makes for unusual watching, hard to
> process right away. Some continuity porn with the verbatim repetition
> of the dialogue from "Who Are You?" - not something that Spike
> would forget easily, especially coming from "Buffy," but now it
> seems like the distant past, so maybe that's why he doesn't react
> too strongly to learning The Rest Of The Story.
I loved the Spike/Faith and Buffy/Faith interactions--a reminder of how
lively a character she is, and how much s7 has lacked that kind of
juice, for all its other virtues. The scenes were fluid and natural,
exciting and funny and unpredictible. I liked the unforeseen
possibility--coming very late in the story--that Spike and Faith might
find an attraction and/or common bond, perhaps because Buffy has moved
beyond their orbit now. I didn't think Spike was so calm when he
realized that this was the Unbuffy who had seduced him so, erm,
enthusiastically. Rather, he seemed a bit bowled over.
> You know what else
> seems to say something about how subdued the show is at this point in
> the face of the greater threat? The fact that Buffy walks downstairs
> and sees her ex-lover and another ex-nemesis sitting on the bed in
> various states of undress, cigarettes in their mouths. Her response?
> A single pointed "well, it's nice to see you two getting along so
> well," and then back to work. The way people behave on this show,
> particularly in the later seasons, definitely changes based on what's
> happening.
I read her reaction somewhat differently. I thought she was thoroughly
peeved to see the two of them together, being all cozy and fivebyfivey,
but damned if she'd let either of them know it.
I found that whole scene very entertaining. Faith is about the only
person in the house who can outdo the Peroxide Warrior in hottitude.
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs.
Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things.
I'm with Mrs. Quality on this one. I suppose every viewer has a Least
Favorite Character. For me, it's Caleb, a.k.a. Preacher Tritepants.
> And the part about reenacting past
> triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
> saying 'EVIL'" kind of way.
I mean, could we please just once have a smart, evil religious figure
not be a card-carrying redneck? Would that misogynists were so easy to
spot and so obvious.
/rantmode
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I mean, could we please just once have a smart, evil religious figure
> not be a card-carrying redneck? Would that misogynists were so easy to
> spot and so obvious.
been following usa politics recently?
Don Sample
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> > (or "Guest star parade!")
> > Writer: Drew Goddard
> > Director: Michael Gershman
> >
> >
> > I wonder if Dawn actually got to know the new Slayer back in the
> > rewritten version of S3, or whether the hostility is mostly
> > second-hand.
> >
>
> Why, of course they knew each other in the Dawnverse - notice that Faith
> doesn't seem to wonder in the least who the "brat" who's "all grown up" is.
Among other things, I figure that Faith and Dawn both remember Dawn
being there for the time that Faith took Joyce prisoner back in "This
Year's Girl," and being in the Summers house the Christmas that it
snowed, and other such incidents.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
There must be some reason why so many Faith episodes have "Girl" in the
title, right?
Bad Girls
This Year's Girl
Dirty Girls
Anyone???
Mel
Scythe Matters
vacation. I won't even get to respond to anything after this post. So
enjoy the last few episodes, and thanks for a lot of great opportunities
for reflection over the seasons...even when I disagree with you (which
is pretty frequently ;-) ), these have been some of the best discussions
of the show in a long, long time.
If the arguments over the final three are still going on in November
(which, unfortunately, seems possible), I'll try to dive in. Or maybe
with your _AtS_ reviews. Though it occurs to me that I've taken on the
role of metatext revelation in my responses, and the fact is that
there's just not that much metatext left. The frontline narrative from
here on out is pretty relentless.
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Faith, well, I can't talk as completely about her as I'd like given
> that I don't know the middle part of this story yet. (I see what
> people are saying about how BTVS tells us just what we need to know for
> the story being told about what's been happening on the other show.
> _Angel_ watchers will probably appreciate the little nods, while I feel
> like I'm not at all clear on any of the details of what's been
> happening, and look forward to finding out.) But speaking as someone
> who hasn't seen her in almost three years of TV time: well met, glad
> you could be part of all the Slayer fun. She looks, appropriately,
> worn out, like the prison and whatever else have aged her some. And
> the voice suggests even before the show goes ahead and proves it that
> the character has picked up the actor's chain-smoking ways.
Let's leave that here: she's not looking aged entirely because of her
experience in prison. Obviously, whatever plot devices on _AtS_ got her
out of prison weren't going to be easy, and her current demeanor and
appearance reflects that.
It does point out, however, how this is a big plot hole in all the talk
of the First's plan. She was mentioned once in all the talk of the
Slayer line, and that's it. Certainly her existence should have been
considered at some point. I guess we'll see what that means or leads to,
if anything.
> So, Faith's all about the good now, and so secure in that that she
> has to constantly remind herself and anyone who'll listen.
Actually, I don't think you're quite seeing that clearly because you
didn't see _AtS_. Sunnydale is the site of her decline and fall, and
many of the personalities around her were there for it, so obviously
there's some stuff for her to work through now that she's back. But
let's just say that there's little current reason for her to be insecure
in her goodness. That doesn't necessarily mean she's "redeemed," of
course. Or maybe she is. It's hard to say without the full story.
It does seem useful to have all these redemptive characters -- Willow,
Spike, Andrew, Faith -- here on the same chessboard. All they're missing
is Angel, though the last thing they need is another important but
underserved character to stuff into the overcrowded milieu.
> "He's with me. He has a soul." "Oh, he's like Angel?"
> "*No*"
Remember -- and Buffy does, because she references it later -- that
Faith has much more recent experience with Angel. There's a subext here
you can't fully understand, though it's not important for this
particular arc.
> The mix of stuff about violence with the
> near-constant sexual tension makes for unusual watching
It's interesting you say that, because it's pretty classic vampire
stuff. Which just goes to point out how far from the classic vampire
tropes this show has gotten. I will say that since this series, I have
never been able to view "mainstream" vampire mythology without mentally
referring back to this show, usually to this show's benefit.
> Some continuity porn with the verbatim repetition
> of the dialogue from "Who Are You?" - not something that Spike
> would forget easily, especially coming from "Buffy," but now it
> seems like the distant past, so maybe that's why he doesn't react
> too strongly to learning The Rest Of The Story.
Important, though, because it -- along with "Something Blue," though
that's played for less consequence -- is the introduction of the entire
Spuffy notion. Perhaps even in Spike's subconscious. Certainly he
remembers the exact words well enough, which has to mean that they made
an impression.
> I wonder if Dawn actually got to know the new Slayer back in the
> rewritten version of S3, or whether the hostility is mostly
> second-hand.
Faith was around the Summers residence, remember...several times, and at
least once after she turned evil. They've "met."
> The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny.
I know you don't notice music, but you did pay attention to the music
behind the Vulcan fight scene, yes?
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS
Ugh. Thanks for the bad memory. :-P But no, the Breen had no purpose.
Caleb does, albeit a dubiously-conceived one.
Caleb is here because of the long-identified fundamental flaw with the
First: Buffy can't trade blows with it. That's an important difference
between this and other Big Bads that could and should lead to
interesting new stories and outcomes, but the fact of the matter is that
without Bringers, summoned Chaka Kahns and the like, Buffy has nothing
to hit. The show is and has always been, at least a little bit, about
Buffy hitting stuff. So there needs to be some sort of avatar for Buffy
to fight.
I consider this a massive failure of will on the part of the writers.
They chickened out. Or they didn't know where to go with what they had.
Either way, no matter how good Fillion's performance is (and it's a lot
of "fun" as these things go), the character has always seemed shoehorned
to me. Forced.
Note, too, that this is the second misogynist villain in a row, after
Warren. Add the Council/First Watchers stuff, and you've got a lot of
overly obvious subtext. Again, this seems a little clumsy.
> MC500 girls
Is it going to be MC5K by the end? I guess we'll see. Probably not if
Caleb keeps killing them.
> And the part about reenacting past
> triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
> saying 'EVIL'" kind of way.
Establishing the extreme misogyny and extreme violence that predates his
relationship with the First. Though -- and here's a bit of a recovery
for the writers, if they're willing to explore it -- it's interesting
that such a person should appear, now, as the First's representative in
fighting the very representation of everything Caleb hates. Why choose a
woman-hating preacher as an proxy?
> With Buffy being fired and all the storylines moving away from SHS, it
> seems like the school will have less of a part in the shape of the
> season than it seemed.
This is a failure Joss identified. He wanted to go back to the school
more often (mostly as a vehicle for exploring Dawn's character), but it
never really worked out. Too much stuff to do in service of the seasonal
arc. No time. It's a shame, though...not so much for the lack of school
stories v.2, but for the lack of Dawn-centric stuff. And I think the
very desire on Joss' part shows that, no matter how far we've come,
there's a small bit of Joss that wishes the show was still what it was.
It is, after all, the show he created. What it's become is likely
necessary, but...well, this conversation belongs to a retrospective
analysis, and not here.
> She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
> one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
> be taking his advice so openly.
There's an intriguing thing about Wood, which I'll get to in a bit.
> Xander's speech about trust in Buffy is a touching moment, but I
> think they overdid it with having everyone get tearful. It's not
> *that* amazing, guys; save that for when it's needed.
It's a better speech than you give it credit for, though. Especially
when you consider all the reasons Xander has to be suspicious of Buffy's
judgement this season. From killing Anya to the whole Spike debacle, and
going back over years of conflict, Xander is doing the most
un-Xander-like thing imaginable. He's putting his complete trust in her
for probably the very first time, no matter his personal reservations.
And, since Joss is evil...
> Then we run into Caleb, and he casually sends our hero flying all the
> way across the room.
In itself, this isn't that interesting. We've seen Buffy get knocked
aside by more powerful enemies before...Adam, Glory, etc. What's more
interesting is how much collateral damage Caleb does, which is not the
norm for the stronger-than-Buffy villains we've seen. Glory kept
threatening such damage, but it was with a purpose -- Dawn -- and once
it was achieved, she abandoned the tactic. Caleb can, and does, achieve
the thing the Turok-Han couldn't in "Showtime": fight Buffy and still
manage to kill a few potentials.
> Then having no one else fare any better
> makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
> cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
> is basically a disaster.
You'll note that Kennedy is now the sole survivor of the original three
potentials.
> Xander, who's managed to survive being in
> the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> doesn't get off so easily this time.
The writers explain that these people have been fighting for a long
time, against a lot of enemies, with no obvious physical consequences.
(Other consequences, sure.) So it's about time one of them paid a price.
And they're right.
On the other hand, this is another one of those horrifying moments that
actually changed how I viewed everything that had come before. I do find
it hard, sometimes, to embrace the goofy innocence of Xander in the
early years, thinking of this scene. But, more importantly, it made me
wonder:
This is Buffy's calling. This is Giles' job. Willow once made an
affirmative choice to do this. Xander has always sort of tagged along,
though it's kinda interesting to note that he did so largely (though not
exclusively; there was also Jesse) because he was hot for Buffy. Others
-- Angel, Jenny, Oz, Cordelia, Wesley, Tara, Anya, Riley, Spike, Andrew
-- have been part of the team for varied reasons, and none of them have
emerged unscarred (or, in some cases, alive). But in regards to the core
four, I wonder if they'd have signed on, knowing then what they know
now. The cost has been almost immeasurable, to all of them and in lots
of ways, and this event puts that in stark perspective. Would any of
them have agreed to fight with Buffy had they known the terrible price
they would pay? *That*, more than the simple loss of an eye, is what
affects my impression of everything that's come before.
> The villains know that he's
> the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
Remember that the First can observe pretty much everything without
consequence or inhibition. Sorta makes planning a bitch, huh?
Anyway, there have been so, so many references to Xander's sight, his
eye, etc. this season. Even in the opening credits. Strange that
something can be so relentlessly telegraphed and yet be a complete
surprise to everyone.
More thoughts:
The whole Caleb/Shannon/truck sequence was terrific in a Hitchcockian
way, foreshadowing each event. When he pushed the cigarette lighter in,
I just cringed, because I knew that everything in that scene was going
to have an outcome, and it wasn't going to be pretty, and there was
nothing to do but sit and watch it unfold.
SPIKE
Lemme guess. Leather pants, nice right cross, doe eyes, holier-than-thou
glower...you must be Faith.
Heh.
FAITH
You should make 'em wear a sign. (Faith reaches around to Buffy's pocket
full of stakes) May I? (takes a stake) Thanks.
Great parallelism there.
BUFFY/FIRST
Look hard. What do you see?
CALEB
Strength. And the loneliness that comes with real strength.
Remember that. Or fit it into everything else on that theme this season,
and in fact this series.
BUFFY
Right. The big picture. The one with the big war and the dead little girls.
ROBIN WOOD
Not dead. Not dead. Not if you get them ready.
BUFFY
I don't want to lead them into war. It can't be the right thing.
ROBIN WOOD
Most wars aren't, you know.
BUFFY
Some of these girl haven't even been tested in battle.
ROBIN WOOD
Then, I guess, maybe you should test them.
Last episode, Wood goaded Giles into an ill-conceived plan to kill
Spike. That didn't turn out so well. Here, he helps goad Buffy into
another ill-conceived plan, that also doesn't turn out so well. With
allies like these...
(...and yet: is he wrong?)
BUFFY
We've got a new player in town. Dresses like a preacher. Calls himself
Caleb. Looks like he's working for the First. He's taunting us, calling
us out. Says he's got something of mine. Could be another girl, could be
something else. Don't know, don't care. I'm tired of talking. I'm tired
of training. He's got something of mine? Fine. I'm getting it back, and
you guys are coming with me.
This is where everything lately has been leading...Buffy acts, and
everyone else must help, follow, or get out of the way. And yet, it's a
regression to "one vampire at a time, the only way I know how." She arms
herself and goes to beat on something. That, as "Help" went to pains to
point out, is not necessarily a solution. That's a routine. That's not
what this entire season has been trying to show her. And, of course, it
ends badly for her.
Plus, another damn speech. Think her next one will be received as well?
Especially with all the damage that's been done to her alliances with
her friends and trusted inner circle?
WILLOW
We don't even know where we're going.
GILES
And you're certain this is the best course of action? You don't even
know what this man has of yours — if he, in fact, has anything.
SPIKE
Could be that's just what he wants you to do — the old bait-and-switch.
WILLOW
Yeah, he lures us away and then kills the girls we leave behind.
XANDER
An unknown man breezes into town, says he has something of yours. Buffy,
this thing's got "trap" written all over it.
GILES
We know nothing about this man. We cannot go into battle unprepared. We
have to have more time.
FAITH
Lends weight to the whole "it's a trap" theory.
And here's the horrible consequence of the previous episode. They're all
right in their caution, but Buffy's convinced of her inerrancy. An
impressive array of her closest friends and companions, all trying to
convince her that she's on the wrong path...and she goes ahead anyway.
Which leads to another question: since, in the last episode, it's widely
believed that despite everything and everyone else, she was right...is
that also true here? Despite everyone else and all the events we see,
should she be considered to be correct in her actions here? Why or why not?
FAITH
Damn. I never knew you were that cool.
BUFFY
Well, you always were a little slow.
Ah, overconfidence. The outcome is inevitable now, and this is the point
where I realized that this was going to be really bad for our heroes.
CALEB
So, you're the slayer. The slayer. The strongest, the fastest, the most
aflame with that most precious invention of all mankind—the notion of
goodness. The slayer must indeed be powerful. (with one powerful punch,
he sends Buffy flying across the room) So, what else you got?
This follows pretty directly from all the power talk this season, and
also from the encounter with the First Watchers. Power -- physical power
-- is extremely limited as a weapon. It's necessary to do what the
Slayer does, certainly, but it can't be everything. There has to be
something else. And the Watcher solution of power+knowledge isn't it either.
FAITH
Never was much for the good book.
CALEB
Oh, it has its moments. Paul had some good stuff, for instance.
OK, OK, we get the misogyny thing. Sheesh...
> AOQ rating: Good
Decent for me. There's a lot of good stuff, especially with the
ever-fascinating Faith. But I think it hits its themes a little too
hard, and I think the presence of Caleb is a failure of courage on the
part of the writers.
Regarding what's to come...let me leave you with two thoughts, since I
won't be around.
1) I said ages and ages ago, possibly in one of my first responses to
your reviews, that there were things introduced in the very first
episode that won't pay off until the very last episode. That's still
true. There's a lot coming that's specific to this season, but by far
the most interesting things -- for me -- are those that bring everything
Buffy has been to a crisis point, and then find a resolution that fits
(or at least attempts to fit). I think it's important to remember that.
You'll understand why soon.
2) Kobayashi Maru. Think about it.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
Breen???
>
>
> it makes sense tehere would be someone like him working for the first
> someone who looks and talks like a normal human
> and can interact with other humans
>
Plus, look at the defeats (ok, setbacks) the First has suffered lately:
the seal was deactivated in Storyteller; Spike's trigger was deactivated
in LMPTM. The First has decided to up the ante by bringing in a player
that no one's seen yet, who up to now has only been acting behind
scenes, but dealing some pretty heavy blows.
Mel
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>way this makes Buffy look bad. Then having no one else fare any better
>>makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
>>cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
>>is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
>
>
> it is the lt gorman style attack (from aliens)
> rush all your forces into a confined space
> with no easy retreat and while facing superior forces
> get your side decimated
They didn't rush all their forces in at once. Faith's crew stayed
outside to make sure none of the Bringers got out or that any more would
come in from behind.
Decimated...there's a word that is *always* mis-used, probably to the
point of having a new meaning these days. Even if it's wrong :-)
>
> the problem is faith and buffy are thinking like slayers
> and put the potentials in a situation beyond their strength
> stirring speeches only go so far
>
They were holding their own against the Bringer when Caleb showed up.
The training hasn't gone for naught. And even if they had known he was
there, they had no way of knowing he was super-powered and could wipe
the floor with those of Slayer or vampire strength.
Mel
Apteryx
news:1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> So, Faith's all about the good now, and so secure in that that she
> has to constantly remind herself and anyone who'll listen.
Constant repetition if that is probably necessary for any viewers who hadn't
seen any of Angel - you at least got to see 5x5 and Sanctuary, but anyone
who last saw her in Who Are You might need some convincing of her reform.
> "*No*") and... well, I don't know if it says a lot, but it
> implies a lot. The part I'll remember most is the basement exchange
> with Spike - they're similar personality types who've been
> paralleled before. The mix of stuff about violence with the
> near-constant sexual tension makes for unusual watching, hard to
> process right away. Some continuity porn with the verbatim repetition
> of the dialogue from "Who Are You?" - not something that Spike
> would forget easily, especially coming from "Buffy," but now it
> seems like the distant past, so maybe that's why he doesn't react
> too strongly to learning The Rest Of The Story.
It does ring kind of false though that Buffy would have told him about the
body swap but "fail to mention" who she swapped with. As does Faith's
earlier revelation that someone (apparently acting for the First) tried to
kill her in prison. Wouldn't killing Faith before all the potentials were
dead simply call another Slayer?
> I wonder if Dawn actually got to know the new Slayer back in the
> rewritten version of S3, or whether the hostility is mostly
> second-hand.
Of course the monks might have figured that since Faith was out of town, and
in prison, there wasn't any need to reconstruct her memories to accomodate
Dawn. Good to see they still believed in quality workmanship.
> The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny.
Great scene :)
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS,
> I guess. I can see the complaint, but I'm willing to let the show
> take a little time to establish or hint at where exactly his mindset
> fits into the First's world, why girls are "dirty" and whether
> that applies more for MC500 girls. On the one hand, he's a more
> interesting enemy than the 'Bringers as far as doing the First's
> physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
> fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
> unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
> magic hammer.
I'd agree with both sides of that argument, and with what others have said
about him being a caricature. I'm in two minds about Caleb. Very lame
character, lamely dropped in, but at least he does belatedly provide a
concrete threat.
>
> With Buffy being fired and all the storylines moving away from SHS, it
> seems like the school will have less of a part in the shape of the
> season than it seemed. She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
> one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
> be taking his advice so openly.
Yeah, but if Buffy's the general and all, shouldn't Wood be leaving the
decision to her as to whether she spends part of her day working? Unless of
course he's just being tactful and he's actually sacking her because the
kids really need a competent counselor.
>
> That subsequent action is chaotic in a good way, and has some very good
> stuff in it. It plays with the viewer's mind a little. Buffy's
> marshaled up a nice looking force, with Willow being a contingency plan
> for the ever-popular "lure the heroes away" school of villainy.
> Then we run into Caleb, and he casually sends our hero flying all the
> way across the room. In addition to all the danger and such, after
> having seen the room full of uncertain girls, one is conscious of the
> way this makes Buffy look bad.
Less a general than a very poor platoon leader.
>
> Kind of a funny story that shows where pseudo-spoilers can lead: I've
> known for a long time that there would be an episode called "Dirty
> Girls" which would make it seem appropriate that Xander played
> Oedipus in "The Puppet Show." So I've been waiting for him to
> kill his father or somehow screw a reincarnation of his mother for a
> long time; getting poked in the eye didn't occur to me at all.
There's also:
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Buffy to Xander, "Dead Man's Party"
The eyepatch he wore with the pirate costume in "Halloween"
"Can I get a blind eye?"
- Xander to Army guard when they steal the rocket launcher in "Surprise"
"Can I be blind too?"
- Xander seeing Buffy kissing Spike when Giles was blind in "Something
Blue"
And even earlier in "Dirty Girls", Xander telling the potentials "go for the
eyes -- everything has eyes".
Even apart from what Caleb references - Dawn telling him in "Potential" that
seeing was his special power.
The guy was clearly doomed.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Uneven, but it'll wash.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
It has its moments, but I wouldn't rate it higher than Decent. It's my 107th
favourite BtVS episode, 13th best in season 7
--
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
news:1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> (or "Guest star parade!")
I like Faith and Caleb a lot. The fact of two new characters at this point
in the season... not so much.
> The part I'll remember most is the basement exchange
> with Spike - they're similar personality types who've been
> paralleled before. The mix of stuff about violence with the
> near-constant sexual tension makes for unusual watching, hard to
> process right away. Some continuity porn with the verbatim repetition
> of the dialogue from "Who Are You?" - not something that Spike
> would forget easily, especially coming from "Buffy," but now it
> seems like the distant past, so maybe that's why he doesn't react
> too strongly to learning The Rest Of The Story. You know what else
> seems to say something about how subdued the show is at this point in
> the face of the greater threat? The fact that Buffy walks downstairs
> and sees her ex-lover and another ex-nemesis sitting on the bed in
> various states of undress, cigarettes in their mouths. Her response?
> A single pointed "well, it's nice to see you two getting along so
> well," and then back to work. The way people behave on this show,
> particularly in the later seasons, definitely changes based on what's
> happening.
Don't most people behave according to what's happening? (Ok, I'm being
difficult, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.)
Anyway, Faith and Spike. It was fun being reminded of their prior encounter
when Faith was in Buffy's body, but I don't think of it as continuity porn.
To begin with, it's exactly what Faith really would remember - the only time
that she's seen Spike before. I also think the episode really is trying to
show something about Spike/Buffy. Spike doesn't respond strongly just
because it's in the distant past. It's more because what had happened in
the interval. I wonder sometimes what Spike would have thought if he had
found out the truth anytime before his S6 affair with Buffy. That encounter
was the most suggestive he had ever had from Buffy - even more than when she
taunted Spike with her neck earlier in S4. Spike does make it clear how
well he remembers it. How much was that moment responsible for convincing
Spike that deep down Buffy wanted him?
It doesn't have that resonance now because Spike has had Buffy. The promise
of what could be is already paid. I think it's also indicative of how much
Spike really has moved beyond his need for Buffy romance - as the later
moment with Buffy says much the same for her. Seeing Faith and Spike
together creates a momentary pang, but then she quickly moves past it.
I like the content of that scene - though it is a bit wordy - but oddly, I
didn't think Spike and Faith played all that well together. Maybe it's just
me, but something felt a little disappointing about how non-edgy having two
of the series' most dynamic characters together turned out to be.
I think Dushku does a fine job on the whole this episode, but she is saddled
with the difficulty of being exposition girl for much of it. And, for the
moment, no particular purpose for the character is offered.
> The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny.
But a very nice tribute/satire of early Star Trek. The set, music and
action was pretty much spot on.
> Same reaction to
> Andrew turning to Xander for support on the important issue of when
> Godzilla is or isn't a Godzilla.
I got a good chuckle out of how upset Andrew was about someone getting it
wrong. I mean, the blasphemy of it.
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS,
> I guess. I can see the complaint, but I'm willing to let the show
> take a little time to establish or hint at where exactly his mindset
> fits into the First's world, why girls are "dirty" and whether
> that applies more for MC500 girls.
I think you're both right. It's an outstanding character. Well written and
well played. But it's another character and subplot to have to incorporate
into a whole that's kind of cluttered.
> On the one hand, he's a more
> interesting enemy than the 'Bringers as far as doing the First's
> physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
> fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
> unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
> magic hammer.
Think of him as the physical extension of The First. (More so than the
ubervamp was.) And a reminder that The First does wield major physical
power by proxy. (There is that army of ubervamps somewhere after all.)
> As far as the actual content of his scenes with
> First/Buffy, they do tend to go on and on and not, on first viewing,
> make a tremendous deal of sense. And the part about reenacting past
> triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
> saying 'EVIL'" kind of way. He's still a creepy fellow,
> though. And any character who muses about making white wine out of
> Jesus's lymph deserves some screen time.
I think they run on too. It is a wordy episode, which brings it down a
little. None the less, the style is extremely creepy and even exhilerating.
Much of the content is to establish how serious a mysoginist he is. But
it's also speaking to a lot of thematic stuff. It's very important that The
First is in Buffy's form for their conversations. Much of what he says is a
kind of message to Buffy, and The First is representing an aspect of Buffy.
It's certainly jumbled to confuse, but if you break it down, a great deal is
about The Slayer's own birth (as in the first Slayer), The Slayer's
relationship to power, and the role of the Shadow Men. (Caleb, in a sense,
represents the Shadow Men.) It applies to broad themes (the feminist
angle), but is also very in-story directed.
Buffy/First: All these girls...they followed you willingly. You tricked
them.
Caleb: I only told them the truth. As for following, well, that seems to be
what they do best.
That little exchange, for example, is all about the Shadow Men's vision of
the Slayer function. (And by extension, the Watcher's vision.)
> With Buffy being fired and all the storylines moving away from SHS, it
> seems like the school will have less of a part in the shape of the
> season than it seemed.
Some broad thematic elements have value (as in a return to the beginning),
and a fair amount occurs there physically. But it never gained its own
personality and presence like it had in the early seasons. An idea kind of
lost in the clutter of S7.
> She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
> one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
> be taking his advice so openly.
I'm OK with her reaction to Wood. She understands his motive well and Spike
did survive - even came out cured. And it wasn't something Wood was doing
to or for Buffy. So I think it makes sense to forgive. She does make it
clear again that it can't be repeated. Giles on the other hand...
> As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> others. Help the girls who still need a teacher." That has some
> ouch factor, though even there the hostility is pretty muted.
It's certainly a harsh dig, but I struggle a little to believe she'd let him
be there freely putting in his opinion.
> Xander's speech about trust in Buffy is a touching moment, but I
> think they overdid it with having everyone get tearful.
Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think everyone was impressed, but I only
recall Andrew and Buffy herself getting tearful.
To me, this is one of Xander's hall-of-fame speeches. In this case, not
just because it's beautifully heartfelt, but because he's also making a kind
of BtVS series tribute to its hero. This is a beautiful summary of what we
all love about Buffy.
Of course, Joss being an evil man, it's timed to come right when she doesn't
protect their lives. Ouch.
> That subsequent action is chaotic in a good way, and has some very good
> stuff in it. It plays with the viewer's mind a little. Buffy's
> marshaled up a nice looking force, with Willow being a contingency plan
> for the ever-popular "lure the heroes away" school of villainy.
> Then we run into Caleb, and he casually sends our hero flying all the
> way across the room. In addition to all the danger and such, after
> having seen the room full of uncertain girls, one is conscious of the
> way this makes Buffy look bad. Then having no one else fare any better
> makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
> cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
> is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
> the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
> the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
> There've been several times over the years when the writers have
> resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
> despite that, this one feels fresh.
I'm glad you mentioned that this isn't the first time something like this
has happened. All the way back in WTTH, Buffy couldn't save Jesse. It's
actually pretty routine for Buffy to stumble first. You have to know your
enemy to defeat it. (It's also fresh, but then so were many of the fights
this year. Good year for battles. I just loved Caleb's casual dispatching
of Buffy.)
There is some controversey around this battle - the tactics of it and
whether it was mistake to go in there to begin with. Obviously the results
were terrible. Two dead Potentials, Xander's eye, and I think a broken arm
in there at least. They clearly were not prepared for Caleb, and after the
expressed misgivings by others - especially Giles - beforehand, people
probably aren't going to be happy about it.
I've wondered for a long time what exactly the episode's intent is here.
And I'm still not certain. But I lean towards the idea being that it's set
up so that the characters will be convinced that Buffy made a terrible error
in judgment going in there, but that the reality of that judgment is
somewhat ambiguous. I don't believe the tactics were intended to be an
issue.
If you think back on the series history, sophisticated battle planning is
hardly the norm. To even speak of setting up a perimeter and having a
reserve force is way more than usual. This is about as sophisticated as it
gets. And it worked largely as planned - other than running into an
exceptionally strong foe, that is - right down to the reserve force buying
the space and time to retreat before they all got killed. This wasn't a
battle they could win. But if they're going to try, I think this was about
as respectable a performance as we could expect from this show.
Whether Buffy should have led that force in there is a tougher call.
Obviously it was intended as a trap - even Buffy knew that. Her idea there
was that could be countered by speed of reaction and force. Not entirely
bad thinking. Not stated, but implicit in the situation, is that there's
only so much it can be a trap since they know of it in advance and the
physical setup was just a face-off between fighters - which is what Buffy
wanted anyway. (Buffy was also motivated by Wood's words that the
Potentials needed to be tested. Which is probably true.)
The only thing that's really all that trap-like is Caleb himself. Which is
the flaw in Buffy's theory, since Caleb relied only on his presence - not
affected by timing or strength of Buffy's force.
However, if you think about it, not much can be done about that. The only
way that's going to be found out is to fight him. And the only place to
find him is in that winery. Eventually that fight was going to occur. I
think it's probably better that it was done in force than something smaller.
The large force helped most of them escape.
(Incidentally, this really was a pretty strong group by BtVS standards. Two
Slayers and Spike, plus decently trained Potentials and Xander. Add Wood
and Willow to the mix and Buffy's little army has gotten a lot stronger over
time.)
The result was undeniably bad though. Not good for morale - especially in
contrast to Xander's little speech, which ends up emphasizing exactly the
opposite of what he attempted to say.
Personally, I think it was a reasonable attack to make. It just didn't work
out well. But they do know about Caleb now. And a bunch of Potentials do
have battle experience now. The losses - well, unfortunately that really is
how you win wars - not Giles' notion of circling the wagons.
It shall forever remain a matter of opinion, however, since we're talking
trade-offs. Hence my opinion that there's deliberate ambiguity as to
whether it was the right thing to do.
> Kind of a funny story that shows where pseudo-spoilers can lead: I've
> known for a long time that there would be an episode called "Dirty
> Girls" which would make it seem appropriate that Xander played
> Oedipus in "The Puppet Show." So I've been waiting for him to
> kill his father or somehow screw a reincarnation of his mother for a
> long time; getting poked in the eye didn't occur to me at all.
I had never thought of that. Thanks for the Buffy lore. I guess you're an
old hand at it now. <g>
> One-sentence summary: Uneven, but it'll wash.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
That's my rating too.
OBS
Apteryx
news:obedne9p2fW2ArDY...@uci.net...
>
>
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> it is the lt gorman style attack (from aliens)
>> rush all your forces into a confined space
>> with no easy retreat and while facing superior forces
>> get your side decimated
>
>
> They didn't rush all their forces in at once. Faith's crew stayed outside
> to make sure none of the Bringers got out or that any more would come in
> from behind.
>
> Decimated...there's a word that is *always* mis-used, probably to the
> point of having a new meaning these days. Even if it's wrong :-)
>
Might almost be right this time. By my count there's two dead. It didn't
look like they had a full 20 there, but if you decimate a squad of 12 or 15,
you're always going to have a rounding problem. One of your squad will get
to know what Schrodinger's cat feels like.
--
Apteryx
Rowan Hawthorn
Exactly. There were plenty of opportunities for them to meet in the
"new" reality.
Don Sample
It is also made clear that Spike already knew that it wasn't really
Buffy who said that to him. He just wasn't told who was driving her
body at the time.
>
> > The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> > the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> > using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny.
>
> But a very nice tribute/satire of early Star Trek. The set, music and
> action was pretty much spot on.
Marcus Rowland did a nice little image manip from that scene:
<http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v336/MarcusRowland/tth47.jpg>
BTR1701
wrote:
> It does ring kind of false though that Buffy would have told him about the
> body swap but "fail to mention" who she swapped with. As does Faith's
> earlier revelation that someone (apparently acting for the First) tried to
> kill her in prison.
Jryy, ubjrire vg enat, vg zbfg qrsvavgryl jnf gehr. Jr npghnyyl fnj gur
nggrzcgrq zheqre bs Snvgu va cevfba ba gur NATRY fubj. Fur jnfa'g ylvat.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> The training hasn't gone for naught. And even if they had known he was
> there, they had no way of knowing he was super-powered and could wipe
> the floor with those of Slayer or vampire strength.
buffy can acknowledge mistakes and learn
or keep doing the same thing until everybody is dead or runs away
Apteryx
news:btr1702-FBAB68...@news.giganews.com...
V qvqa'g guvax fur jnf ylvat - vg jnf gur fprar qrfpevorq gung qvqa'g evat
gehr gb zr, abg Snvgu. V thrff gur NgF jevgref tnir gur OgIF jevgref n ovg
bs ubfcvgny cnff ba guvf, ohg gurl pbhyq unir whfg yrg vg yvr naq abg
ersrerq gb gur nggnpx fubja ba NgF. Nf vg vf, vg haqrezvarf gur ybtvp bs gur
Svefg'f cyna, nf bhgyvarq ol Tvyrf naq Ohssl va Oevat ba gur Avtug - svefg
xvyy gur cbgragvnyf, gura gur Fynlref. Xvyy n Fynlre orsber nyy gur
cbgragvnyf ner qrnq naq lbh ner whfg znxvat zber jbex sbe lbhefrys
--
Apteryx
Daniel Damouth
news:DO6dnZmnMpZcB7DY...@rcn.net:
> The writers explain that these people have been fighting for a
> long time, against a lot of enemies, with no obvious physical
> consequences. (Other consequences, sure.) So it's about time one
> of them paid a price. And they're right.
I've never thought Xander losing an eye was good writing, mainly
because it happened only seconds after two girls were *killed*. Their
deaths should matter more, but they don't. It's the writers shoving our
hypocrisy, and their hypocrisy, and the conceit of storytelling, right
in our faces.
Oh look, two girls were murdered, but OH NO XANDER LOST AN EYE!!!!
-Dan Damouth
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> others. Help the girls who still need a teacher."
*Looks up what usually follows hubris*
Tactically (as WGF says) the attack plan was sound. But they really
didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
--
What does not kill me makes me stronger. Unless it leaves me as a quadriplegic.
Stephen Tempest
>It does ring kind of false though that Buffy would have told him about the
>body swap but "fail to mention" who she swapped with.
Perhaps next time Spike met the 'real' Buffy, he made some reference
to Faith's flirting, and Buffy reacted something on the lines of
"What? Eww, no! That wasn't me, someone else was controlling my body.
You don't think _I'd_ ever say stuff like that to you? You're
disgusting." and then changed the subject rapidly, or walked away.
>Of course the monks might have figured that since Faith was out of town, and
>in prison, there wasn't any need to reconstruct her memories to accomodate
>Dawn. Good to see they still believed in quality workmanship.
You really think they went round individually altering people's
memories on a one-by-one basis? A general all-encompassing spell seems
far more likely. Or, possibly, that Dawn radiates a magical "you do
remember me after all, don't you?" field to anyone who comes into
contact with her.
>I'd agree with both sides of that argument, and with what others have said
>about him being a caricature. I'm in two minds about Caleb. Very lame
>character, lamely dropped in, but at least he does belatedly provide a
>concrete threat.
I get the impression this is like the crack-magic storyline from last
season. People who've watched too much American TV think this is a
cliché. People who haven't can appreciate the story for its own
quality. :)
>Yeah, but if Buffy's the general and all, shouldn't Wood be leaving the
>decision to her as to whether she spends part of her day working? Unless of
>course he's just being tactful and he's actually sacking her because the
>kids really need a competent counselor.
Or, he's being nasty and spiteful, and getting his revenge on her for
what she said to him last episode. "It's the mission that matters",
eh?
Mr Wood is not necessarily a nice person.
Snvgu qrfreirf zhpu orggre. :)
Stephen
Espen Schjønberg
Yeah, it's a shame this show isn't about someone who gets info while
they sleep or something.
I mean, if Buffy had had nightmares giving her actual, valuable info
about whats going on, how dangerous are the foes, that would have been,
well, totally different.
But I don't think the writers has seen that show.
--
Espen
Malsperanza
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I mean, could we please just once have a smart, evil religious figure
> > not be a card-carrying redneck? Would that misogynists were so easy to
> > spot and so obvious.
>
> been following usa politics recently?
It's not that I disagree with you--I suspect that you and I probably
have similar views on US politics. It's that the cliche of the southern
preacherman/bigot/vicious/ignerent/evol/fanatic kinda lets everyone
else off the hook, because it's such a tired, established formula.
There are plenty of religous powers whose politics I oppose and who are
literate, cultured and mainstream. Orange County, CA (Sunndydale
country) is full of them. Making Caleb a redneck makes him less
dangerous, because rednecks (in TV shows) are marginalized dumbasses.
If the writers wanted the Evil!Badguy of the First to be a religious
fanatic who hates women, fine. I just found the execution of that idea
clumsy, trite, and unimaginative. That made Caleb more irritating than
scary for me.
The only thing Caleb has that is a threat to Buffy is his physical
strength. In terms of what he actually means for Buffy, and how he
functions in the story, his hatred of women, his southern accent, and
his connection to fundamentalist Christianity add nothing to the actual
degree of danger he poses--at least, not so far. So those other
attributes function purely as little labels marked "I'm the kind of
person you are allowed to hate without thinking about it." He's a paper
cutout.
A classic version of this cliche figure is the preacher in Night of the
Hunter, played by Robert Mitchum. (And BTW, that's a movie that uses
the killer humming a little innocent sweet song really well.) The
preacher there is so incredibly powerful as a scary badguy because he
taps into the real power of faith--both his own and that of the
innocent people he encounters. He plays on their need, their poverty,
and especiallly their hope through religion. The fanaticism, the rage,
the violence all percolate through the twisted idea of belief and
faith. So the evilness of the character is closely entwined with his
religiousness and his passion (fanaticism). It's an amazing character
and an amazing performance, which has been pallidly imitated in Caleb,
IMO. Caleb never convinces anyone--not Buffy, not the Potentials, not
us. He's just WooooEvol. So he's just the First's muscleman.
~Mal
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> It is also made clear that Spike already knew that it wasn't really
> Buffy who said that to him. He just wasn't told who was driving her
> body at the time.
Right. My guess is that he found out during Season 6, certainly after
the invisible-Buffy episode. "What do you mean, you never said that?
I was right there, I remember every word." >muttermutter< "You don't
say...."
hayes62
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS,
> I guess. I can see the complaint, but I'm willing to let the show
> take a little time to establish or hint at where exactly his mindset
> fits into the First's world, why girls are "dirty" and whether
> that applies more for MC500 girls. On the one hand, he's a more
> interesting enemy than the 'Bringers as far as doing the First's
> physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
> fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
> unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
> magic hammer. As far as the actual content of his scenes with
> First/Buffy, they do tend to go on and on and not, on first viewing,
> make a tremendous deal of sense. And the part about reenacting past
> triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
> saying 'EVIL'" kind of way. He's still a creepy fellow,
> though. And any character who muses about making white wine out of
> Jesus's lymph deserves some screen time.
I'm OK with Caleb partly from the lack of overexposure to American TV
(although it is a pity they couldn't get Bob Mitchum for the part)
and partly because I didn't feel he came out of nowhere. He seemed
more the last in a series of patriarchal figures starting with
Dumbledore!Giles, who loved his charges, through the Shadowmen who used
them as instruments but didn't hate them and now Caleb who does.
He's both misogynistic and patriarchal, unlike Warren whose hatred
came from fear and perceived powerlessness, Caleb is perfectly
comfortable interacting with the image of a powerful woman as long as
she's singular. I think that's true of most patriarchal
institutions, the Catholic Church has its Marian cults (alone of all
her sex), the British Tory party had Margaret Thatcher and so on.
> With Buffy being fired and all the storylines moving away from SHS, it
> seems like the school will have less of a part in the shape of the
> season than it seemed. She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
> one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
> be taking his advice so openly.
I think she sympathsised with Wood, she did share with him the story of
her own mother, despite being angry with him but she expected better
from Giles.
> As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> others. Help the girls who still need a teacher." That has some
> ouch factor, though even there the hostility is pretty muted.
She's being authoritative in that scene and not repeating the GiD
mistake of trying to argue out strategy in front of all the troops.
Apart from Giles she's taking their criticisms on board and
responding with solutions. In fact she does respond appropriately when
he suggest the potentials aren't ready but his final complaint that
they need more time for research annoys her having just explained to
Xander that the strategy is to move quickly in order to exploit the
element of surprise. Arguably she's learnt from the Ubervamp
experience when setting out to research things just meant she
confronted it at a time and a place of its choosing not hers. So far,
with the Council and other resources that Giles knows best destroyed
(or minimalist in the first place) researching the First and its
minions has rarely proved productive anyway.
~H
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> (or "Guest star parade!")
> Director: Michael Gershman
> So, Faith's all about the good now, and so secure in that that she
> has to constantly remind herself and anyone who'll listen.
I think that's more for other people's benefit, as others have already
pointed out.
Her
> scenes tend to go well, with it being almost as hard to get into her
> mind as ever, and Buffy able to take her in but having to devote mental
> energy to accepting her. Seems about right.
Yup. And the cemetery scene is fantastic ("Angel's dull as a table
lamp! And we have very different colouring!")
> The part I'll remember most is the basement exchange
> with Spike - they're similar personality types who've been
> paralleled before. The mix of stuff about violence with the
> near-constant sexual tension makes for unusual watching, hard to
> process right away.
Two people having *so* much fun! :)
> You know what else
> seems to say something about how subdued the show is at this point in
> the face of the greater threat? The fact that Buffy walks downstairs
> and sees her ex-lover and another ex-nemesis sitting on the bed in
> various states of undress, cigarettes in their mouths. Her response?
> A single pointed "well, it's nice to see you two getting along so
> well," and then back to work.
That was *very* pointed indeed - if she hadn't been called away there
might have been more. This might be a woman thing, but it was crystal
clear to me that Buffy was *not* happy!
> The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny. Same reaction to
> Andrew turning to Xander for support on the important issue of when
> Godzilla is or isn't a Godzilla.
*happy sigh*
> Let's talk about Preacher Tightpants a little bit next. Mrs. Quality
> has a few problems with DG, most of which pertain to having this
> character suddenly introduced in the final hours of the series and
> thrown into the center of things. That'd make him the Breen of BTVS,
> I guess. I can see the complaint, but I'm willing to let the show
> take a little time to establish or hint at where exactly his mindset
> fits into the First's world, why girls are "dirty" and whether
> that applies more for MC500 girls. On the one hand, he's a more
> interesting enemy than the 'Bringers as far as doing the First's
> physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
> fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
> unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
> magic hammer.
Having read most of the comments, I began thinking about Caleb (more
than I've ever done before. He seems such a simple 'I'm EVIL'
character, so could there be anything underneath? This is what I came
up with:
First of all I thought about the different Big Bads, and how complex
they were (or weren't):
S1 had The Master, a stereo typical 'scary monster' right out of any
fairy tale, suitable for the v. young Buffy.
S2 had Spike, Dru and Angelus, all deliciously wicked, enjoying
themselves and also being well-fleshed out characters. All about
self-gratification and fun, they were dark mirrors of our teen heroes.
S3 had The Mayor who was a delight in all his joyus evilness, and also
represented authority gone awry (also see The Council).
S4 had Adam, who I guess could be seen as an existential monster,
pondering the world and working purely from reason, fitting, I guess,
for a season where Buffy was at university, trying to work things out
as an adult for the first time.
S5 had Glory, totally self-obsessed without a thought for anyone else,
the perfect foil for a Buffy who was looking at her Slayer powers and
responsibility as never before.
S6 had 'Life as the Big Bad', where the characters flaws and problems
became real and tangible, and everything sprung from internal
struggles.
And now S7... S7 has The First Evil, which is in essence quite simply
the _concept_ of Evil, and how can you fight a concept? It has no face
of its own, and, although sentient, has no other urge than to destroy
and kill. It's minions are Bringers (blind!), Uber vamps (pure vampires
without any of those pesky human traits) and - _Caleb_. Now people
don't like Caleb. They think he's one dimensional and annoying, and
he's probably one of the most hated characters in the whole 'verse. So
having actually given this some thought, I have a few points to make
about Caleb:
a) Caleb is there to be hated. That's the point. We can't hate The
First, because there is quite simply nothing solid *to* hate. The
Bringers and the Ubers are too mindless to care about much. But Caleb -
Caleb we can hate. Some see his introduction as a cop-out. I'm not so
sure. I think the viewers need someone to hate, someone to focus their
attention on. As OBS put it - he's a physical extension of The First.
b) He's human. He's The First's most powerful and loyal servant - and
he's human. He's where Warren (and Willow to a certain extent) was
heading. To start my quoting, he reminds me of Sauron's most faithful
servant:
"The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet
this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of
Barad-Dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale, for he himself
had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' [...] ...he
entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and
because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he
learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was
more cruel than any orc."
As Caleb puts it in 'Dirty Girls':
"Just looking for answers. Just looking for the Lord in the wrong damn
places. Then you showed me the light."
We've seen The First try to tempt various characters over the course of
the season (Spike and Andrew most directly), but it didn't succeed.
With Caleb it did - and more. He's a human turned monster - through and
through.
c) It's all about pride. To quote C.S.Lewis:
"The vice I am talking of is Pride or Self-Conceit: and the virtue
opposite to it, in Christian morals, is called Humility. You may
remember, when I was talking about sexual morality, I warned you that
the centre of Christian morals did not lie there. Well, now, we have
come to the centre. According to Christian teachers, the essential
vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness,
and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride
that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is
the complete anti-God state of mind."
Caleb is eaten up by pride, and it has eradicated everything else
within him - he has no redeeming features. No humour, no quirks, no
entertaining vices, no thought for anything except himself. To quote Mr
Lewis again (and notice how *everything* fits with Caleb):
"The other, and less bad, vices come from the devil working on us
through our animal nature. But this [Pride] does not come through our
animal nature at all. It comes direct from Hell. It is purely
spiritual: consequently it is far more subtle and deadly. For the same
reason, Pride can often be used to beat down the simpler vices.
Teachers, in fact, often appeal to a boy's Pride, or, as they call it,
his self-respect, to make him behave decently: many a man has overcome
cowardice, or lust, or ill-temper, by learning to think that they are
beneath his dignity - that is, by Pride. The devil laughs. He is
perfectly content to see you becoming chaste and brave and
self-controlled provided, all the time, he is setting up in you the
Dictatorship of Pride - just as he would be quite content to see your
chilblains cured if he was allowed, in return, to give you cancer. For
Pride is spiritual cancer: it eats up the very possibility of love, or
contentment, or even common sense.
[..]
The real black, diabolical Pride, comes when you look down on others so
much that you do not care what they think of you."
(Whole chapter can be found here, it's not all that long, so do read:
http://www.btinternet.com/~a.ghinn/greatsin.htm)
I doubt Joss Whedon ever read 'Mere Christianity', but he sure is good
at creating villains, and Caleb is the very well executed. Of course we
hate him - if we didn't the writers would have done something wrong.
> She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
> one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
> be taking his advice so openly.
ROBIN WOOD
But I'll be OK. Unless, of course, you start beating up on me now.
BUFFY
I won't. Well, I thought about it. I made some doodles.
What I wouldn't give to see those doodles... (I have a fic rec, if
anyone's intersted?)
> That subsequent action is chaotic in a good way, and has some very good
> stuff in it. It plays with the viewer's mind a little. Buffy's
> marshaled up a nice looking force, with Willow being a contingency plan
> for the ever-popular "lure the heroes away" school of villainy.
> Then we run into Caleb, and he casually sends our hero flying all the
> way across the room. In addition to all the danger and such, after
> having seen the room full of uncertain girls, one is conscious of the
> way this makes Buffy look bad. Then having no one else fare any better
> makes her look better by comparison, until he starts snapping necks and
> cashing checks, at which point one realizes that this whole operation
> is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
> the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
> the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
> There've been several times over the years when the writers have
> resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
> despite that, this one feels fresh.
Like OBS I've been wondering if we're supposed to see Buffy as reckless
or unlucky. Because she actually plans the thing rather well. But
looking at her little speech I think I've worked it out (a little
anyway):
BUFFY
We've got a new player in town. Dresses like a preacher. Calls himself
Caleb. Looks like he's working for the First. He's taunting us, calling
us out. Says he's got something of mine. Could be another girl, could
be something else. Don't know, don't care. I'm tired of talking. I'm
tired of training. He's got something of mine? Fine. I'm getting it
back, and you guys are coming with me.
As I-forget-who points out, what-ever-it-is that Caleb has *could* be a
stapler. Or nothing at all. And Buffy 'doesn't care' - he's taunting
her, and she's going to fight back. Mostly, I think, because she
finally has someone that she _can_ fight. There are countless Bringers
and Ubervamps, and killing them accomplishes next to nothing.The First
is all smoke and mirrors - but Caleb is an actual, real opponent. It's
an opportunity and she grabs it. And doesn't stop to consider if the
risk is worth it. _That's_ her failing as far as I can tell.
> One-sentence summary: Uneven, but it'll wash.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Seems fair. And if recall correctly, the writers were originally
planning on actually _killing_ Xander in this episode. So it could have
been worse...
Elisi
> the Catholic Church has its Marian cults (alone of all
> her sex
Just feel like pointing out that there are *huge* numbers of female
saints from all through the ages, highly revered and cared about by
millions. Take f.ex. Saint Brigid (of Sweden) who spent most of her
life having visions, which led to her travelling around Europe telling
off the pope, kings etc.
(Not about to start a religious discussion in *any* way, just wanted to
point out a common misconception.)
Jeff Jacoby
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
[snip]
>> There've been several times over the years when the writers have
>> resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
>> despite that, this one feels fresh.
>
> Like OBS I've been wondering if we're supposed to see Buffy as reckless
> or unlucky.
A little of both? Maybe a LOT of both?
> Because she actually plans the thing rather well.
Given what little info she has, what resources she
has, and her stubborn insistence, it's as good or better
then she's ever been.
> But
> looking at her little speech I think I've worked it out (a little
> anyway):
>
> BUFFY
> We've got a new player in town. Dresses like a preacher. Calls himself
> Caleb. Looks like he's working for the First. He's taunting us, calling
> us out. Says he's got something of mine. Could be another girl, could
> be something else. Don't know, don't care.
It must be just me, but that clipped speaking pattern
she uses makes me cringe everytime I hear this speach.
> I'm tired of talking. I'm
> tired of training. He's got something of mine? Fine. I'm getting it
> back, and you guys are coming with me.
>
> As I-forget-who points out, what-ever-it-is that Caleb has *could* be a
> stapler.
Giles.
> Or nothing at all. And Buffy 'doesn't care'
Imagine that!
> - he's taunting
> her, and she's going to fight back. Mostly, I think, because she
> finally has someone that she _can_ fight. There are countless Bringers
> and Ubervamps, and killing them accomplishes next to nothing.The First
> is all smoke and mirrors - but Caleb is an actual, real opponent.
At this point she's never met him. She can't know
that he's any different than the Bringers or Ubervamps
in terms of being a "real" opponent.
> It's
> an opportunity and she grabs it. And doesn't stop to consider if the
> risk is worth it. _That's_ her failing as far as I can tell.
I would argue her failing is not listening to *anyone* (as
opposed to not listening to just one or two). Pretty much
everyone, including Spike, is arguing extreme caution. Perhaps
another fallout of LMPTM.
Also
Buffy: He won't be expecting a full attack? not this
soon, that's why we have to move.
How can she possibly know? Buffy seems to have forgotten
The First can see and hear all that's going on in her house,
and would know exactly the maximum strength she can bring to
bear. Maybe Caleb didn't come into town, or The First
summon him to town, *until* he was ready for anything,
including a full attack.
And it appears Willow has supplanted Spike as the
strongest, unless you want to split hairs about
"weapon" vs. "warrior".
Jeff
Elisi
Pride? (What with having written extensively about it...) Maybe also
the fact that Giles has been pushing her to this point, continually
reminding her that _she's_ the leader. The problem being that she's now
cut off from the one who probably knows the most about warfare.
The question is of course - has she learned from her mistake? She sure
seemed to at the end.
> Also
>
> Buffy: He won't be expecting a full attack? not this
> soon, that's why we have to move.
>
> How can she possibly know? Buffy seems to have forgotten
> The First can see and hear all that's going on in her house,
> and would know exactly the maximum strength she can bring to
> bear. Maybe Caleb didn't come into town, or The First
> summon him to town, *until* he was ready for anything,
> including a full attack.
>
> And it appears Willow has supplanted Spike as the
> strongest, unless you want to split hairs about
> "weapon" vs. "warrior".
I'm v. happy to split hairs! *g*
hayes62
I'm not trying to make out the Catholic Church is by any means a
patriachy in Caleb's image (although you'll have trouble persuading me
that it isn't patriachial). However, each of those female saints is
singular, an isolated case. Exceptional women can be revered and loved
as individuals but they don't form a community that any woman can feel
part of or even join and their existance doesn't imply that ordinary
women should have the same access to power within the Church as men.
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
More likely he found out fairly soon after the events of "Who Are You."
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> > others. Help the girls who still need a teacher."
>
> *Looks up what usually follows hubris*
>
> Tactically (as WGF says) the attack plan was sound. But they really
> didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
> finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any more
information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
before you have to act. If you wait until you are certain about what it
is that you are up against, you will never do anything. You will never
know everything that you want to know.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
> > finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
>
> It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any more
> information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
depends on what books
some books wouldve advised sending one or two expendable people
like kennedy and ummm kennedy
to go into the cellar alone as point
after they search it thoroughly
they either die horribly with long gurgling screams
signaling that there is something dangerous there
or they come back out and say hey jackass its safe
the idea not to put your whole force at risk
or even half
just the bare minimum to find any problem
some ambushers are well enough placed to be undetected by the point or flankers
but a trained commander knows how to try to keep his troops safe
buffy can be excused because she probably didnt read those books
but she is smart enough to learn from her mistakes
buffy approached it with the same kind of planning
as her and faith jumping down a manhole to see what they find
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
So? They knew from Shannon's ventilated gut that there was a new player
in town who had used her as a very loud "Come and have a go if you think
you're hard enough" cry. That alone should have been cause for caution.
Intelligence gathering is not just a matter for books.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> (or "Guest star parade!")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: Michael Gershman
.
> Start with a girl getting chased through the woods. Sometimes the
> classics keep on giving. She quickly runs into Nathan Fillion, who
> took me a little while to even recognize, and he's a suitably
> disturbing take on the Evil Preacher type, especially after we learn
> that he staged the 'Bringer attack in the first place.
I really like Caleb. Many people complain that he's an obvious, blatant
stereotype, which may be true, but NF plays him well enough to make up for
it. (For me it also helps that I personally haven't seen this stereotype
often enough to get tired of it.) He has that smiling, mock-reasonable
villain thing down pat, not unlike that fan favorite the Mayor. So far I
don't think we've even heard him raise his voice. This is much creepier
than an even more stereotypical fire-and-brimstone preacher would have
been.
Of course having a misogynist villain is also pretty obvious, but it's
appropriate enough to have another one of those as the series draws toward
its climax. Despite the lack of subtlety, I think Caleb actually works
better than the Shadow Men did. In one episode we learn enough about him
for Caleb to emerge as a real character, rather than just a symbol. This
never happened with the Shadow Men -- their personalities and motivations
were left blank, so they come across as Symbols of Patriarchy rather than
characters, even one-dimensional ones.
One unusual thing about Caleb is that he's misogynistic, but not really
patriarchal. (Patriarchical?) He hates women, but he doesn't care for
men either: "There once was a woman, and she was foul, like all women, for
Adam's rib was dirty -- just like Adam himself -- for what was he, but
human." Women are especially repulsive to him, but rather than preferring
males to them, he prefers the First Evil. He doesn't evince much interest
in maintaining any system of male domination, and he even rejects a
partriarchal role for himself when he tells Shannon not to call him
"father." I'm not sure if there is a point to this, or what it might be.
Maybe the idea is to show a more fundamental misogyny that goes beyond any
ordinary everyday sexism and patriarchy? Or maybe they just wanted the
First to have a knowing human accomplice, and no one who only hated half
of humanity would take on that role.
Hey, I wonder if the First ever tried appearing as Jesus?
> The next car
> contains, as I'd hoped, Willow and an ATS character. Even better,
> it's Faith.
Huzzah for Faith! A couple of weeks ago I was in Boston and saw a
concert, which started with a sort of overture during which the projection
screens showed a list of famous locals. Everyone cheered for Sam Adams
and booed Ben Affleck, but I was crushed that neither Faith nor Eliza
Dushku was even mentioned.
> So, Faith's all about the good now, and so secure in that that she
> has to constantly remind herself and anyone who'll listen. Her
> scenes tend to go well, with it being almost as hard to get into her
> mind as ever, and Buffy able to take her in but having to devote mental
> energy to accepting her. Seems about right. The whole cemetery
> sequence with all the mistaken identity is full of breezy dialogue
> ("are you the bad Slayer now? Am I the good Slayer now?"
> "He's with me. He has a soul." "Oh, he's like Angel?"
> "*No*") and... well, I don't know if it says a lot, but it
> implies a lot.
I was struck by Spike's insistence that he reformed before Faith did.
Forget that he has no idea when Faith reformed. What I want to know is,
when does Spike date his own reformation from? Getting his soul back?
Deciding to get his soul back? Fool for Love?
> The part I'll remember most is the basement exchange
> with Spike - they're similar personality types who've been
> paralleled before.
Good scene. If Buffy was feeling jealous, and I think she was, I'm not
sure she needed to be. From what we see here, Faith and Spike are just
too similar to work as a couple, at least in the Jossverse. (They're also
probably too similar to have worked as the two leads in a spinoff series.)
It's a little hard to believe that Spike would have heard about the WAY
body swap without asking who the other driver was. Did Buffy just refuse
to say, or did she make something up?
Two disappointments: We don't see Faith interact with Xander, the guy she
introduced to sex, the guy she tried to murder. *That* would have been an
interesting conversation. And I don't think Anya appears at all. I'm
sure her take on forgiveness and Faith would have been amusing (though
perhaps just a repeat of her comments on Spike in LMPTM).
> The entire sequence about the story of Faith and the Vulcanologist is
> the very definition of TIRSBILA, the kind of thing for which I started
> using that phrase. Extremely stupid, and funny. Same reaction to
> Andrew turning to Xander for support on the important issue of when
> Godzilla is or isn't a Godzilla.
And how about Xander's little fantasy right after the opening credits?
(It also includes a little presentiment of his Speech, when he tells the
one Potential that Buffy knows what she's doing.)
> that applies more for MC500 girls. On the one hand, he's a more
> interesting enemy than the 'Bringers as far as doing the First's
> physical heavy lifting. On the other hand, having a super-strong
> fighter like this might take away from the Big Bad's status as
> unique, noncorporeal, something that can't be beaten to death with a
> magic hammer.
On first viewing I was a little disappointed that Caleb was "only"
super-strong and invincible. I felt we had already done that with Glory
and Adam, and wished that Caleb had some more unique power. But in a way
it really fits the way the season has developed. Buffy and her army still
have no idea how to fight the First. For a moment she thought she had a
concrete foe to beat on, but nope, he's invincible. Back to the drawing
board for Buffy.
> With Buffy being fired and all the storylines moving away from SHS, it
> seems like the school will have less of a part in the shape of the
> season than it seemed. She doesn't seem as resentful towards Wood as
> one might think after last week, and it seems a little off for her to
> be taking his advice so openly.
Perhaps Buffy is trying to prove, to him and to *herself*, that she's all
business, that her objection to killing Spike wasn't just personal.
> Xander's speech about trust in Buffy is a touching moment, but I
> think they overdid it with having everyone get tearful.
Everyone, especially Buffy, seemed moved, but only Andrew actually got
tearful. (You can't help but wonder if he's still seeing everything as a
movie.) It's probably tacky to do this now, when he's going to be offline
for weeks, but I disagree with Scythe about Xander's speech being
"un-Xander-like." He's always been Buffy's most devoted follower,
assorted fights notwithstanding. Even in Revelations, he was back on
board by the end of the episode. This speech is actually the culmination
of seven years of Xander trusting Buffy. (That, and a little gift from
the writers.) It explains why Xander is willing to follow Buffy into a
probable trap, and persuade the others to follow along. And of course it
comes right before that trust ends up getting him horribly maimed, and two
others killed. How is this going to affect the intra-Scooby dynamic?
I'm of two minds about Buffy's plan. She did good by having Willow guard
the house, setting up a reserve force, and so on. Much better tactics
than the last few times she rushed into a trap! But she undermined it all
by failing to do sufficient reconnaissance first. She and Faith found
Caleb's likely hiding place, but they didn't even try to see what he had
inside. Ubie was a nasty surprise not long ago; shouldn't Buffy be on
the alert for more such surprises? So despite her planning and
marshalling of forces, in the end General Buffy still comes across as a
failure for rushing in without knowing what she was getting them into.
To that extent, her followers are right to be disenchanted with her
afterwards. And it looks like Buffy rushed into the fight because Caleb
goaded her, and because she was too eager to finally get at a foe she
could hit. Her troops must have noticed that too, which will also
undermine their confidence in her.
> That subsequent action is chaotic in a good way, and has some very good
> stuff in it.
The fight scene always confuses the automatic color balance on my (cheap)
TV set -- just before Caleb throws Spike into the wine cask, everything
goes much redder than it should be. Does anyone else have that problem?
It doesn't happen when playing the DVD on my Mac.
> is basically a disaster. Xander, who's managed to survive being in
> the center of the action all these years with few substantial injuries,
> doesn't get off so easily this time. The villains know that he's
> the one who "sees everything," for whatever that's worth.
> There've been several times over the years when the writers have
> resorted to a losing battle against a big ultra-scary monster, and
> despite that, this one feels fresh.
Oh, yes. That thumb in the eye was somehow more brutal than the usual
fangs and swords. It's one of the few scenes that can compare to Tara's
death. A nice touch is that Spike is the one to save Xander (or at least
save his other eye). Spike and Xander are still not friends off the
battlefield, but on it they work together without hesitation. And since
Buffy wasn't the one to save Xander, there's nothing to reduce her feeling
of failure.
Remember how Buffy killed Gnarl in STSP, and Xander's reaction to it?
At the end, Buffy walks past her wounded troops, and the shocked and upset
ones who stayed behind, but can't find any words for them. Then she
simply wanders away, alone. Just when they need her most, she takes off.
This is an even bigger failure in generalship than the attack on the
vinyard was. Her army may be losing that hard-won confidence in her, and
she may be losing confidence in herself. Poor Buffy is really foundering
here. Was she really cut out to be a leader?
> AOQ rating: Good
Agreed. If they could have sped up the talky middle sections, it might
even have been an Excellent.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <dsample-58D474...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <l64o-1rj5-3E1DA...@europe.isp.giganews.com>,
> > vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> > > > others. Help the girls who still need a teacher."
> > >
> > > *Looks up what usually follows hubris*
> > >
> > > Tactically (as WGF says) the attack plan was sound. But they really
> > > didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
> > > finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
> >
> > It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any more
> > information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
> > before you have to act. If you wait until you are certain about what it
> > is that you are up against, you will never do anything. You will never
> > know everything that you want to know.
>
> So? They knew from Shannon's ventilated gut that there was a new player
> in town who had used her as a very loud "Come and have a go if you think
> you're hard enough" cry. That alone should have been cause for caution.
>
> Intelligence gathering is not just a matter for books.
But that's the sort of intelligence gathering that Giles does. For
other sorts of intelligence, someone has to go out and look for it. The
only way for them to learn about Caleb's strength was to actually have a
confrontation with him, and when they did that, someone was probably
going to die The first confrontation with Caleb probably would have had
casualties, whether Buffy did it now, or later.
Up until now, Buffy has mostly been sitting back and waiting for the
First to come after her. She was hoping that by acting now, she would
take it by surprise, with an attack before it was ready. This turned
out to be a mistake, but it was a reasonable one for her to make based
on what she knew of the situation.
And what might have happened if Buffy *didn't* attack then? What if the
First's next move would have been to send Caleb and the Bringers against
her, in her home? Would the outcome have been any different?
Malsperanza
Elisi wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
snip
This post is an eloquent defense of Caleb-as-badguy. It almost
convinces me. That is, it convinces me of what the writers meant to be
doing with him. Alas, the reason *I* hate Caleb is not that he's evil,
but that he's boring. I don't think Preacher Tritepants is a worthy
figuration of the First Evil in material form. The First is way more
interesting than that, precisely because Its nature is opaque, is left
to our individual imaginations, much as Sauron is. We're free to
imagine the worst possible thing, and It's that.
My image of the most hateful possible evil badguy is not a ranting,
sadistic, Southern fundamentalist woman-hater. OK, well that guy might
be in my top 20. But however hateful misogyny is, and however central
and important to the Buffy story, it is just one aspect of evil, not
the whole shebang. The battle of good vs. evil cannot successfully be
reduced to emblematic physical representatives:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians
6:12.)
The whole idea of a Caleb acting as stand-in for the First, so that
Buffy and the Grrls can have someone to clobber and be clobbered by
reduces the First Evil to no greater, no more expansive, than Adam, and
not even as monstrous as Mayor Snake. By comparison Glory looks way
more dangerous and powerful. There's only so much power that can be
expressed in showing some badguy hurling Buffy across the room.
I think a lot of potential for making the First really terrifying,
overwhelmingly dangerous and deadly and apocalyptic was lost with the
introduction of Caleb. And for what? Basically so that we could have
some more slugfests. Because we haven't seen enough of those in the
past 6.5 seasons.
The Potentials have been training for a physical battle against
soldiers with weapons. We see in Dirty Girls how raw they still are,
how limited their fighting skills. Useful to know, and scary. But the
First Evil is ultimate, total, absolute evil. The fear of It is
something that could cripple Buffy as much as anyone else. Which would
have been a truly terrifying scenario.
Also, gotta say: Nathan Fillion didn't persuade me. I know he is
beloved of Firefly fans, who must get a kick out of him appearing in
the role of Baddest Worstest Christian Demagogue Evar.
> The
> Bringers and the Ubers are too mindless to care about much. But Caleb -
> Caleb we can hate. Some see his introduction as a cop-out. I'm not so
> sure. I think the viewers need someone to hate, someone to focus their
> attention on. As OBS put it - he's a physical extension of The First.
It's a good idea, but a banal execution. I suppose the argument is that
true evil *is* rather banal. <Insert lengthy discussion of "Eichman in
Jerusalem: On the Banality of Evil," by Hannah Arendt> If so, then I'd
probably have enjoyed this character if he had been a perfectly normal
looking, reasonable civil servant type--someone like Delores the Social
Services Lady. Only: Evil. Bland, less amusing than the Mayor,
colorless, and implacable.
There's an excellent spy novel by Alan Furst, "Dark Star," in which a
thoroughly evil Soviet spy is described as "the world's plainest man."
" ...He had been approached by the World's Plainest Man. Where, he
wondered, did they find them? Russia marked people: deformed most, made
some exquisite, at the very least burned itself deep into the eyes. But
not this one. His mother was water, his father a wall. 'A small favor,'
said the world's plainest man...."
(http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375759994&view=excerpt
)
snipping some
> c) It's all about pride. To quote C.S.Lewis:
>
> "The vice I am talking of is Pride or Self-Conceit: and the virtue
> opposite to it, in Christian morals, is called Humility. You may
> remember, when I was talking about sexual morality, I warned you that
> the centre of Christian morals did not lie there. Well, now, we have
> come to the centre. According to Christian teachers, the essential
> vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness,
> and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride
> that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is
> the complete anti-God state of mind."
>
> Caleb is eaten up by pride, and it has eradicated everything else
> within him - he has no redeeming features. No humour, no quirks, no
> entertaining vices, no thought for anything except himself.
It's an interesting idea--that pride is the first, most terrible evil
in the world, from which all other evils flow. I'm not sure that fits
my own theology, so I can only take it as read, as part of the
Buffyverse. Yet, I think Buffyverse shows us pride in a somewhat less
specifically Christian sense than Lewis's. Pride is also connected to
self-worth and taking pleasure in accomplishment, in achievement. Frex,
Xander's lack of self-esteem leads to a kind of excessive shame for
things that he really need not be so regretful or chagrinned about.
Anya, Willow, Buffy--most of the human characters suffer at one time or
another from lack of healthy pride, as well as (at other times) from
hubris or arrogance. Unsouled vampires are extremely arrogant and
hubristic, but I wouldn't say that their worst sin is pride, but
something more like indifference or anomie. I tend to read Caleb as not
only arrogant and proud, but kind of aimlessly vicious. He wants to be
part of something rillyrillyBig and rillyrillyBad, but not for any very
clear reason.
> I doubt Joss Whedon ever read 'Mere Christianity', but he sure is good
> at creating villains, and Caleb is very well executed. Of course we
> hate him - if we didn't the writers would have done something wrong.
Alas, I don't think he's well-executed; I think he's a generic rehash,
lazily conceived and flabbily performed. Also, I think hating the
Evil!Badguy is only part of the mix. We should also fear him. The First
is fearsome because incorporeal, omnipresent, and able to attack people
within their own hearts and minds. It is the power of dissension,
discord, chaos, mistrust made manifest. Caleb's just a ranting jackass
with a clerical collar and a powerful punch.
To be honest, I wasn't all that thrilled with Adam either: he looked an
awful lot like the cyborg badguys in technophobic 1960s-vintage Star
Trek episodes. (Science Run Amok!) The Big Bads who worked best for me
were the ones with range and nuance: the Mayor (to a degree), Warren,
Angelus (despite torturous acting), Spike 'n Dru, Glory (for a while,
til she got agonizingly repetitious), the First Itself.
But YMMV.
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
possibly quite different
caleb was using his own hands not projectiles
and thus had to close on his prey
he was depending on the confinement of basement
if they had lured him out of the basement
or if he had come to the summers house (except the basement)
they wouldve more room to maneuver
they would have room to attack with crossbow and thrown knives
and discover more about him without closing enough for him to counterattack
the attack on the winery was a mistake
but an excusable mistake since she had not been trained in small unit tactics
but unless she accepts she makes mistakes she cannot learn from them
hayes62
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > And what might have happened if Buffy *didn't* attack then? What if the
> > First's next move would have been to send Caleb and the Bringers against
> > her, in her home? Would the outcome have been any different?
>
> possibly quite different
>
> caleb was using his own hands not projectiles
> and thus had to close on his prey
> he was depending on the confinement of basement
But isn't it all too possible that the reason he was reduced to manual
combat was because they suprised him. If he organised the blowing up of
the council headquarters it's a fair assumption that he's quite capable
of using other types of modern weaponary and would have had time to
organise some in a planned attack on the Summers house.
> if they had lured him out of the basement
> or if he had come to the summers house (except the basement)
> they wouldve more room to maneuver
>
> they would have room to attack with crossbow and thrown knives
> and discover more about him without closing enough for him to counterattack
One of Faith's people (Xander I think) used a crossbow quite
effectively in the cellar, it wasn't that cramped.
~H
hayes62
Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> Also
>
> Buffy: He won't be expecting a full attack? not this
> soon, that's why we have to move.
>
> How can she possibly know? Buffy seems to have forgotten
> The First can see and hear all that's going on in her house,
> and would know exactly the maximum strength she can bring to
> bear. Maybe Caleb didn't come into town, or The First
> summon him to town, *until* he was ready for anything,
> including a full attack.
>
when was Buffy made aware of it? Sure it got some information from
incarnating as Eve and by talking to Chloe and Andrew but I don't think
its been shown as anywhere near omniscient.
~H
Malsperanza
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 18: "Dirty Girls"
> I really like Caleb. Many people complain that he's an obvious, blatant
> stereotype, which may be true, but NF plays him well enough to make up for
> it. (For me it also helps that I personally haven't seen this stereotype
> often enough to get tired of it.) He has that smiling, mock-reasonable
> villain thing down pat, not unlike that fan favorite the Mayor. So far I
> don't think we've even heard him raise his voice. This is much creepier
> than an even more stereotypical fire-and-brimstone preacher would have
> been.
>
> Of course having a misogynist villain is also pretty obvious, but it's
> appropriate enough to have another one of those as the series draws toward
> its climax. Despite the lack of subtlety, I think Caleb actually works
> better than the Shadow Men did. In one episode we learn enough about him
> for Caleb to emerge as a real character, rather than just a symbol. This
> never happened with the Shadow Men -- their personalities and motivations
> were left blank, so they come across as Symbols of Patriarchy rather than
> characters, even one-dimensional ones.
Interesting. I didn't think of the Shadow Men as Badguys in the same
way Caleb or Adam or Glory is. They are patriarchal, yes, but they are
aligned with humanity against the demon realm. They're obscure
characters, highly symbolic, as you say, and not clearly categorizable.
Which to me makes them fairly interesting.
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
it claims to be omniscient
could it be lying?
that would be well just evil
Michael Ikeda
news:egk9bo$1n4$1...@emma.aioe.org:
> As does Faith's earlier revelation that someone (apparently
> acting for the First) tried to kill her in prison. Wouldn't
> killing Faith before all the potentials were dead simply call
> another Slayer?
>
Although if Faith died and the new Slayer was called from the
Potentials at the Summers' household that could serve the First's
purposes by becoming another possible source of division.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
hayes62
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> One unusual thing about Caleb is that he's misogynistic, but not really
> patriarchal. (Patriarchical?) He hates women, but he doesn't care for
> men either: "There once was a woman, and she was foul, like all women, for
> Adam's rib was dirty -- just like Adam himself -- for what was he, but
> human." Women are especially repulsive to him, but rather than preferring
> males to them, he prefers the First Evil. He doesn't evince much interest
> in maintaining any system of male domination, and he even rejects a
> partriarchal role for himself when he tells Shannon not to call him
> "father." I'm not sure if there is a point to this, or what it might be.
> Maybe the idea is to show a more fundamental misogyny that goes beyond any
> ordinary everyday sexism and patriarchy? Or maybe they just wanted the
> First to have a knowing human accomplice, and no one who only hated half
> of humanity would take on that role.
Patriachy has to do with the belief that men should have power over
women, which doesn't necessarily require liking men. One feminist
criticism of patriachal systems is that they ultimately harm men as
much as women. What's become of Giles, as he reverts to the Council's
philosophies, is a possible example of this.Caleb not only despises
women he also clearly believes he has the right to do with them as he
will, that their natural position is to be followers. He believes he
has power over them, even the most poweful of them (the Slayer) once
she gets in line.
~H
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1160663792.5...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Don Sample wrote:
> > > It is also made clear that Spike already knew that it wasn't really
> > > Buffy who said that to him. He just wasn't told who was driving her
> > > body at the time.
> >
> > Right. My guess is that he found out during Season 6, certainly after
> > the invisible-Buffy episode. "What do you mean, you never said that?
> > I was right there, I remember every word." >muttermutter< "You don't
> > say...."
>
> More likely he found out fairly soon after the events of "Who Are You."
Perhaps he found out fairly soon that there had been a body switch.
But I am of the opinion that he didn't find out it wasn't Buffy who
spoke to him until well into Season 6.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Patriarchy has to do with the belief that men should have power over
women. Caleb shows no interest in *men* having anything. He thinks that
one particular man, he himself, personally has power over women. That
isn't patriarchy so much as Calebarchy. (It's like the difference between
me saying that Buffy fans should rule the world and saying that I, who
happen to be a Buffy fan, should rule the world.)
Jeff Jacoby
It briefly took over Willow when she tried a spell. It
Also showed up inside the house as Spike. The "Joyce"
in her dreams may also have been The First.
> but I don't think
> its been shown as anywhere near omniscient.
The First has full control over if and when it want to
show up. Buffy cannot control or predict its presence in her
house.
Buffy: You're right. We don't know how to fight it. We
don't know when it'll come
She's a pretty bright girl, it's safest to assume The First
knows evverything that goes on in her house...
Buffy: The First isn't impressed. It already knows us. It
knows what we can do, and its laughing.
So whether or not it really bothers to know everything, Buffy
herself seems to believe it.
Jeff
Apteryx
news:9masi2h6lr0ut4gdc...@4ax.com...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> writes:
>
>>It does ring kind of false though that Buffy would have told him about the
>>body swap but "fail to mention" who she swapped with.
>
> Perhaps next time Spike met the 'real' Buffy, he made some reference
> to Faith's flirting, and Buffy reacted something on the lines of
> "What? Eww, no! That wasn't me, someone else was controlling my body.
> You don't think _I'd_ ever say stuff like that to you? You're
> disgusting." and then changed the subject rapidly, or walked away.
How gullible do you think Spike is? Would you believe someone who explained
coming on to you like that?
>>Of course the monks might have figured that since Faith was out of town,
>>and
>>in prison, there wasn't any need to reconstruct her memories to accomodate
>>Dawn. Good to see they still believed in quality workmanship.
>
> You really think they went round individually altering people's
> memories on a one-by-one basis?
That seems to be what the monk said:
BUFFY
My memories... my mom's?
MONK
We built them.
That's what I mean about quality workmanship. No flashy Anyanka type
overwhelming spells for them. Just quality, detailed, workmanship, that you
can only get from monks these days.
A general all-encompassing spell seems
> far more likely. Or, possibly, that Dawn radiates a magical "you do
> remember me after all, don't you?" field to anyone who comes into
> contact with her.
That could work. And I'll bet in fact she does get a lot of guys coming up
to her saying "Don't I know you from someplace?"
>>I'd agree with both sides of that argument, and with what others have said
>>about him being a caricature. I'm in two minds about Caleb. Very lame
>>character, lamely dropped in, but at least he does belatedly provide a
>>concrete threat.
>
> I get the impression this is like the crack-magic storyline from last
> season. People who've watched too much American TV think this is a
> cliché. People who haven't can appreciate the story for its own
> quality. :)
I said caricature, not cliche. Pretty much the only American fictional TV I
have seen since BtVS ended, apart from AtS on DVD and a few episodes of
Firefly and House, is The Simpsons, and I'm not saying there's a connection
between Caleb and Rev Lovejoy. And he's a caricature because, well he is. He
takes characteristics of mysoginists, rednecks, and the formerly religious
who still hang on to some of the trappings of religions they no longer
believe in, and blows them up to near comic proportions.
>>Yeah, but if Buffy's the general and all, shouldn't Wood be leaving the
>>decision to her as to whether she spends part of her day working? Unless
>>of
>>course he's just being tactful and he's actually sacking her because the
>>kids really need a competent counselor.
>
> Or, he's being nasty and spiteful, and getting his revenge on her for
> what she said to him last episode. "It's the mission that matters",
> eh?
That occurred to me too. Certainly even if it wasn't his reason for doing
it, it must have given him some satisfaction :)
--
Apteryx
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
This woul dbe the Giles who has been assiduously rounding up Potentials
for the past several weeks or months? Several of whom had already been
attack. That suggests he has a tad more about him the book learning.
Not least of which is the ability to avoid detection by Bringers while
being actively hunted.
> For
> other sorts of intelligence, someone has to go out and look for it. The
> only way for them to learn about Caleb's strength was to actually have a
> confrontation with him, and when they did that, someone was probably
> going to die The first confrontation with Caleb probably would have had
> casualties, whether Buffy did it now, or later.
>
> Up until now, Buffy has mostly been sitting back and waiting for the
> First to come after her. She was hoping that by acting now, she would
> take it by surprise, with an attack before it was ready. This turned
> out to be a mistake, but it was a reasonable one for her to make based
> on what she knew of the situation.
>
> And what might have happened if Buffy *didn't* attack then? What if the
> First's next move would have been to send Caleb and the Bringers against
> her, in her home? Would the outcome have been any different?
--
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On 12.10.2006 03:49, Mel wrote:
> >
> > They were holding their own against the Bringer when Caleb showed up.
> > The training hasn't gone for naught. And even if they had known he was
> > there, they had no way of knowing he was super-powered and could wipe
> > the floor with those of Slayer or vampire strength.
>
> Yeah, it's a shame this show isn't about someone who gets info while
> they sleep or something.
>
> I mean, if Buffy had had nightmares giving her actual, valuable info
> about whats going on, how dangerous are the foes, that would have been,
> well, totally different.
>
> But I don't think the writers has seen that show.
Are you seriously proposing that Slayerdreams should be used that way?
They've never been reliable things that can be expected to occur
exactly when necessary to perfectly prepare Buffy for anything.
Espeically since that doesn't lead to interesting stories.
I think we've only seen the one Slayerdream this season, and Buffy
didn't figure out what it meant until it was too late to anything about
it. So it's okay to miss seeing them as often as in the early years,
but they've almost always been highly couched in metaphor and imagery
rather than being straight-up info, except for a few very specific
episodes that chose to use them as plot devices ("Hush," any others?).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> There has been, and certainly will be, a large discussion about Buffy's
> plan in invading the winery. I'll get my take in early (sort of a
> pre-emptive strike). It was a good plan, given what Buffy knew. It failed
> horribly, but that was due to factors which Buffy didn't and couldn't
> anticipate. As you note, she provided protection in case it was a
> misdirect (it took her seven seasons, but she's finally not falling for
> that one every time), she took in a large enough force, including another
> heavy hitter, to handle most things, and set up a backup force to provide
> what seemed to be overwhelming numbers in case of the unexpected. She
> didn't anticipate a foe that was individually much stronger than the
> ubervamps, there was no reason she should have, if Lurky had that kind
> hench-power, surely it would have used it against them already.
Chris handled the wys in which this is and is not a good plan, but I'll
add that in a way, it doesn't really matter whether or not she did
well. The effects are the same either way; they failed. Knowing
Buffy, she's going to blame herself for it. And the MC500 may too,
given that they were uneasy about the idea to begin with, but left the
decision up ot their leader. It could be kind of like the inverse of
"Showtime" for both Buffy and those who follow her; here again she
trusts her instincts, her Slayer strength, and the desire to hit
something. It's reckless, but it's in the name of scoring a big,
inspiring victory. And this time, these things fail her.
> So, were you spoiled about Faith (since you come from Firefly fandom, I'm
> assuming you knew that Captain Tightpants was going to show up sometime)?
I pretty much knew Faith would be back around this time on both shows,
but actually somehow had no idea that Fillion was part of BTVS. I'm
all in favor of anyone from the _Firefly_ crowd getting work, and
highly urge that anyone who only knows the actor as Caleb take steps to
remedy that immediately.
-AOQ
~I hear a lot of people liked _Slither_ too, though I can't recommend
it on account of not having seen it~
BTR1701
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> And how about Xander's little fantasy right after the opening credits?
> (It also includes a little presentiment of his Speech, when he tells the
> one Potential that Buffy knows what she's doing.)
A little casting note: Caridad, one of the potentials who was snuggling
up to Xander in that scene, was played by Dania Ramirez, who appeared in
"X-Men III" this past summer as Callisto-- a role for which Eliza Dushku
was initially considered before scheduling conflicts made it impossible
for her to do it.
BTR1701
> In article <l64o-1rj5-3E1DA...@europe.isp.giganews.com>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> > > others. Help the girls who still need a teacher."
> >
> > *Looks up what usually follows hubris*
> >
> > Tactically (as WGF says) the attack plan was sound. But they really
> > didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
> > finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
>
> It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any more
> information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
> before you have to act.
There are other methods of gathering intelligence besides reading books.
Stephen Tempest
>Yup. And the cemetery scene is fantastic ("Angel's dull as a table
>lamp! And we have very different colouring!")
I especially enjoyed the fact that the conversation had moved on way
past that already, but Spike couldn't let it go. :)
Speaking of Faith's first encounters with Sunnydale people, I thought
her interaction with Willow was quite interesting... considering the
last time we saw them on this show, Willow was nursing immense
resentment against Faith for trying to steal all the important people
in her life away from her, and Faith was fantasising about stabbing
Willow in the gut.
Yet not only are they apparently on good terms here, Willow is
actually conspiring with Faith on the best way to introduce her to
Buffy without causing an argument. Shades of her behaviour in 'Normal
Again' vis-ą-vis Sam, perhaps?
>That was *very* pointed indeed - if she hadn't been called away there
>might have been more. This might be a woman thing, but it was crystal
>clear to me that Buffy was *not* happy!
It's not just a woman thing. :) It was obvious that Buffy was
seriously pissed off at both of them.
But she can hardly get openly mad at Faith for stealing yet another
boyfriend away from her, can she? Because Spike isn't her boyfriend...
>a) Caleb is there to be hated. That's the point. We can't hate The
>First, because there is quite simply nothing solid *to* hate. The
>Bringers and the Ubers are too mindless to care about much. But Caleb -
>Caleb we can hate. Some see his introduction as a cop-out. I'm not so
>sure. I think the viewers need someone to hate, someone to focus their
>attention on. As OBS put it - he's a physical extension of The First.
I like that idea, and I think you're right. As for Malsperanza's point
about how this reduces the menace of The First, and trivialises it - I
think the question is, does the storyline in the remaining episodes
become "Buffy has to defeat Caleb in order to defeat The First"?
Or is it "Buffy's obsession with defeating Caleb - an enemy she can
physically pummel (at least in theory) - actually aids The First's
ultimate victory by sowing yet more dissent and hatred among her
allies"?
>b) He's human. He's The First's most powerful and loyal servant - and
>he's human.
He really has to be, doesn't he? With all the demons and vampires and
monsters the show has shown is, it's only fitting that the most
dangerous one of all is a human.
(In fact, the two most dangerous, with Caleb and Willow vying for the
title)
>c) It's all about pride. To quote C.S.Lewis:
...
>Caleb is eaten up by pride, and it has eradicated everything else
>within him - he has no redeeming features. No humour, no quirks, no
>entertaining vices, no thought for anything except himself. To quote Mr
>Lewis again (and notice how *everything* fits with Caleb):
Here, I don't really agree. Partly because I disagree strongly with
the theological concept that pride is inherently evil and can have
only bad effects... but partly because just I don't see it as Caleb's
overriding driving force.
What he does have in overwhelming abundance is self-confidence. I can
see where that's very similar to pride, but I don't think it stems
from the same source... Caleb is self-confident because he has such
overriding faith in The First. He's the perfect contrast to Buffy,
because she's torn by doubt and lack of confidence in her followers.
Caleb, by contrast, apparently has vast hordes of Bringers ready to
die at his command, and he never shows the slightest flicker of doubt.
He's _enjoying himself_, and he's immensely smug about it at the same
time. (That's why he's so fun to hate). And the reason he's so
confident is because he knows he's chosen the winning side.
Caleb has complete faith in the power of The First, and his faith
gives him power.
Buffy... well, at least she now has Faith too... but so far it doesn't
look like it's enough...
>Like OBS I've been wondering if we're supposed to see Buffy as reckless
>or unlucky. Because she actually plans the thing rather well. But
>looking at her little speech I think I've worked it out (a little
>anyway):
Yep. She gives way to pride, and anger, and impulsiveness... but her
decision is still fundamentally sound.
(What else should she have done? Waited around "researching" while
Caleb established his defences and recruited more Bringers? Handed
over the initiative to him and let him attack her at a time and place
of his choosing? Sent in a small force to reconnoitre that might have
been totally wiped out, thus bringing back zero intelligence other
than the fact that Caleb's defences were very strong, and in the
process demoralising her army even more than the actual event? Gone in
by herself, thus sending a message to the Potentials that they're
useless and she doesn't need them?
Seems to me Buffy's plan was both tactically and strategically sound.
And when she discovered that her opponent was stronger than two
Slayers, a vampire and a whole bunch of (semi)trained warriors, she
was able to extract her forces with minimal casualties and useful
knowledge of Caleb's abilities.
Yes, 10% losses for a force that's ambushed and forced to retreat *is*
extremely minimal casualties for a military unit. Unfortunately, since
neither the Potentials nor the Scooby Gang are trained soldiers,
they're unlikely to regard the event in quite such a light...
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>One unusual thing about Caleb is that he's misogynistic, but not really
>patriarchal. (Patriarchical?) He hates women, but he doesn't care for
>men either: "There once was a woman, and she was foul, like all women, for
>Adam's rib was dirty -- just like Adam himself -- for what was he, but
>human." Women are especially repulsive to him, but rather than preferring
>males to them, he prefers the First Evil. He doesn't evince much interest
>in maintaining any system of male domination, and he even rejects a
>partriarchal role for himself when he tells Shannon not to call him
>"father."
Perhaps he hates all of humanity on religious grounds, but his
specific dislike for women is a personal quirk?
Stephen
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
None of which Giles has shown any particular aptitude for.
Arbitrar Of Quality
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
I'd add that I still have some of the same problems with the First
being so tied to an avatar that others do, but that's a good summary of
why I think Caleb's worth watching.
> If Buffy was feeling jealous, and I think she was, I'm not
> sure she needed to be. From what we see here, Faith and Spike are just
> too similar to work as a couple, at least in the Jossverse. (They're also
> probably too similar to have worked as the two leads in a spinoff series.)
Maybe, but given how well their scenes together play here, maybe they
could synergize enouhg to get people hooked. And then the hypothetical
show could start with them in a similar place and show them diverging
in interesting ways?
> It's probably tacky to do this now, when he's going to be offline
> for weeks, but I disagree with Scythe about Xander's speech being
> "un-Xander-like." He's always been Buffy's most devoted follower,
> assorted fights notwithstanding. Even in Revelations, he was back on
> board by the end of the episode. This speech is actually the culmination
> of seven years of Xander trusting Buffy. (That, and a little gift from
> the writers.) It explains why Xander is willing to follow Buffy into a
> probable trap, and persuade the others to follow along. And of course it
> comes right before that trust ends up getting him horribly maimed, and two
> others killed.
> I'm of two minds about Buffy's plan. She did good by having Willow guard
> the house, setting up a reserve force, and so on. Much better tactics
> than the last few times she rushed into a trap! But she undermined it all
> by failing to do sufficient reconnaissance first. She and Faith found
> Caleb's likely hiding place, but they didn't even try to see what he had
> inside. Ubie was a nasty surprise not long ago; shouldn't Buffy be on
> the alert for more such surprises? So despite her planning and
> marshalling of forces, in the end General Buffy still comes across as a
> failure for rushing in without knowing what she was getting them into.
> To that extent, her followers are right to be disenchanted with her
> afterwards. And it looks like Buffy rushed into the fight because Caleb
> goaded her, and because she was too eager to finally get at a foe she
> could hit. Her troops must have noticed that too, which will also
> undermine their confidence in her.
Pretty much agreed on all counts with those points. You're saying
stuff too well to leave us much to discuss!
-AOQ
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-802CF5...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <dsample-58D474...@news.giganews.com>,
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <l64o-1rj5-3E1DA...@europe.isp.giganews.com>,
> > > vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As for resentfulness, though: "I need you to stay behind with the
> > > > > others. Help the girls who still need a teacher."
> > > >
> > > > *Looks up what usually follows hubris*
> > > >
> > > > Tactically (as WGF says) the attack plan was sound. But they really
> > > > didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
> > > > finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
> > >
> > > It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any more
> > > information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
> > > before you have to act.
> >
> > There are other methods of gathering intelligence besides reading books.
>
> None of which Giles has shown any particular aptitude for.
Who says Giles is the only one who can work intel?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> This will be the last time I'll get to say something before I go on
> vacation. I won't even get to respond to anything after this post.
But I'm still responding to it, imagining that you'll dig it up in a
month or something. Force of habit or something.
> So
> enjoy the last few episodes, and thanks for a lot of great opportunities
> for reflection over the seasons...even when I disagree with you (which
> is pretty frequently ;-) ), these have been some of the best discussions
> of the show in a long, long time.
Well, a discussions only as strong as its responders.
> I will say that since this series, I have
> never been able to view "mainstream" vampire mythology without mentally
> referring back to this show, usually to this show's benefit.
I'm starting to get some of the same. At this point the way the
Buffyverse works is the first thing that comes to mind when vampires
show up. Same reaction to any references to angels of any kind. Maybe
I'm a little obsessed.
> > That'd make him the Breen of BTVS
>
> Ugh. Thanks for the bad memory. :-P
Glad you got the reference, although now I have to wonder why you know
DS9 so well given that you seemingly lost interest a few years in.
> Caleb is here because of the long-identified fundamental flaw with the
> First: Buffy can't trade blows with it. That's an important difference
> between this and other Big Bads that could and should lead to
> interesting new stories and outcomes, but the fact of the matter is that
> without Bringers, summoned Chaka Kahns and the like, Buffy has nothing
> to hit. The show is and has always been, at least a little bit, about
> Buffy hitting stuff. So there needs to be some sort of avatar for Buffy
> to fight.
Yeah, that's worrisome to me too, and doesn't seem necessary. As we've
seen, the show is able to do an intangible general with its own army of
faceless things to beat up. Maybe they don't think big fight scenes
will be charged enough unless the foe has an identifiable personality
too?
> > And the part about reenacting past
> > triumphs is maybe a little excessive in a "he should wear a badge
> > saying 'EVIL'" kind of way.
>
> Establishing the extreme misogyny and extreme violence that predates his
> relationship with the First. Though -- and here's a bit of a recovery
> for the writers, if they're willing to explore it -- it's interesting
> that such a person should appear, now, as the First's representative in
> fighting the very representation of everything Caleb hates. Why choose a
> woman-hating preacher as an proxy?
Yeah, I suppose establishing that he had a pre-First life is important.
Why is he the perfect avatar?
> You'll note that Kennedy is now the sole survivor of the original three
> potentials.
Proof positive of just how evil Caleb and the First are.
> This is Buffy's calling. This is Giles' job. Willow once made an
> affirmative choice to do this. Xander has always sort of tagged along,
> though it's kinda interesting to note that he did so largely (though not
> exclusively; there was also Jesse) because he was hot for Buffy. Others
> -- Angel, Jenny, Oz, Cordelia, Wesley, Tara, Anya, Riley, Spike, Andrew
> -- have been part of the team for varied reasons, and none of them have
> emerged unscarred (or, in some cases, alive). But in regards to the core
> four, I wonder if they'd have signed on, knowing then what they know
> now. The cost has been almost immeasurable, to all of them and in lots
> of ways, and this event puts that in stark perspective. Would any of
> them have agreed to fight with Buffy had they known the terrible price
> they would pay? *That*, more than the simple loss of an eye, is what
> affects my impression of everything that's come before.
They took things one day at a time. It's not just tat so much has
happened but that so muhc time has passed, and they've gone through
their changes. It's an interesting thing to think abot but it'll defy
a clear reason, because people who wouldn't have jumped into the fray
with Buffy wouldn't have turned into these characters we like so much.
> Anyway, there have been so, so many references to Xander's sight, his
> eye, etc. this season. Even in the opening credits. Strange that
> something can be so relentlessly telegraphed and yet be a complete
> surprise to everyone.
True.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> It's probably tacky to do this now, when he's going to be offline
> for weeks, but I disagree with Scythe about Xander's speech being
> "un-Xander-like."
Except that having just responded to his post, that's not what he was
saying (unless you're referring to something else).
-AOQ
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
That is the subject of this thread. What Giles was doing while Buffy
led her raid.
Mel
Apteryx wrote:
> "Mel" <melb...@uci.net> wrote in message
> news:obedne9p2fW2ArDY...@uci.net...
>
>>
>>mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>it is the lt gorman style attack (from aliens)
>>>rush all your forces into a confined space
>>>with no easy retreat and while facing superior forces
>>>get your side decimated
>>
>>
>>They didn't rush all their forces in at once. Faith's crew stayed outside
>>to make sure none of the Bringers got out or that any more would come in
>>from behind.
>>
>>Decimated...there's a word that is *always* mis-used, probably to the
>>point of having a new meaning these days. Even if it's wrong :-)
>>
>
>
> Might almost be right this time. By my count there's two dead. It didn't
> look like they had a full 20 there, but if you decimate a squad of 12 or 15,
> you're always going to have a rounding problem. One of your squad will get
> to know what Schrodinger's cat feels like.
>
Indeed. Losing 2 of 20 isn't bad when going up against what turns out to
be a superior force.
Losing 1000 of 10000, maybe not so good. Especially if you don't win.
Mel
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:I pretty much knew Faith would be back around this time on both shows,
:but actually somehow had no idea that Fillion was part of BTVS. I'm
:all in favor of anyone from the _Firefly_ crowd getting work, and
:highly urge that anyone who only knows the actor as Caleb take steps to
:remedy that immediately.
Unfortunately, "Two Guys, A Girl and A Pizza Place"
isn't available on DVD.
:
:-AOQ
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:
:I think we've only seen the one Slayerdream this season, and Buffy
:didn't figure out what it meant until it was too late to anything about
:it.
We've seen at least two: The "Run, Lola, Run" dream,
and the Chloe dream. Neither was ultimately useful.
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
No, the subject of the thread is AOQ's review of "Dirty Girls". Says so
right up there next to the word "subject".
Buffy was wrong to launch her attack while knowing so little about her
enemy and Giles isn't the only person capable of gathering intel.
Also, Giles seemed quite adept at locating potentials all over the
world. Something tells me he didn't get that info from books, either.
One Bit Shy
news:gppti2p4pnkrnme7h...@4ax.com...
> On 12 Oct 2006 16:46:15 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :I think we've only seen the one Slayerdream this season, and Buffy
> :didn't figure out what it meant until it was too late to anything about
> :it.
>
> We've seen at least two: The "Run, Lola, Run" dream,
> and the Chloe dream. Neither was ultimately useful.
Oh, I don't know. The first dream didn't help. But the second one had the
message about it not being enough - which I think has some value. Plus, it
could have pointed her towards Chloe, but Buffy dropped that ball.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > If Buffy was feeling jealous, and I think she was, I'm not
> > sure she needed to be. From what we see here, Faith and Spike are just
> > too similar to work as a couple, at least in the Jossverse. (They're also
> > probably too similar to have worked as the two leads in a spinoff series.)
>
> Maybe, but given how well their scenes together play here, maybe they
> could synergize enouhg to get people hooked. And then the hypothetical
> show could start with them in a similar place and show them diverging
> in interesting ways?
the scene was written to show spike and faith together
in case network executives were interesting in a spin off with them
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> I pretty much knew Faith would be back around this time on both shows,
> but actually somehow had no idea that Fillion was part of BTVS. I'm
> all in favor of anyone from the _Firefly_ crowd getting work, and
> highly urge that anyone who only knows the actor as Caleb take steps to
> remedy that immediately.
sorry but nathans it
George W Harris
wrote:
:"George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote in message
Yeah, it *could* have been useful Ultimately...
:
:OBS
:
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
One Bit Shy
news:1160669877....@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Like OBS I've been wondering if we're supposed to see Buffy as reckless
> or unlucky. Because she actually plans the thing rather well. But
> looking at her little speech I think I've worked it out (a little
> anyway):
>
> BUFFY
> We've got a new player in town. Dresses like a preacher. Calls himself
> Caleb. Looks like he's working for the First. He's taunting us, calling
> us out. Says he's got something of mine. Could be another girl, could
> be something else. Don't know, don't care. I'm tired of talking. I'm
> tired of training. He's got something of mine? Fine. I'm getting it
> back, and you guys are coming with me.
>
> As I-forget-who points out, what-ever-it-is that Caleb has *could* be a
> stapler. Or nothing at all. And Buffy 'doesn't care' - he's taunting
> her, and she's going to fight back. Mostly, I think, because she
> finally has someone that she _can_ fight. There are countless Bringers
> and Ubervamps, and killing them accomplishes next to nothing.The First
> is all smoke and mirrors - but Caleb is an actual, real opponent. It's
> an opportunity and she grabs it. And doesn't stop to consider if the
> risk is worth it. _That's_ her failing as far as I can tell.
As Caleb would say, that solution is problematical. You're essentially
pointing at her notion of fighting the only way she knows how - one vampire
at a time. We've been told in many ways that's not enough.
But I don't think we've exactly been told that it's wrong. Not enough, and
wrong, aren't the same thing. Or to put it another way, it's not like
letting that one vampire run wild is a good idea either.
Buffy surely needs to do something more than she's doing - including more
than this assault on Caleb. But Caleb has already killed one Potential, and
I think his taunt really isn't so much bait for a trap as it is a boast that
Buffy can't stop him. But he knows she has to try.
That's not to say that he isn't deliberately trying to get her attention to
further the First's plans. He is. The idea, I believe, is to keep Buffy
busy - distracted. (And pick off more Potentials.) Which does further the
notion of Buffy's general plan being insufficient. Even so, she still has
to take out Caleb.
OK, after running around that circle twice or more, I think I can say that
she needs to escape that trap, but that the means don't entail avoiding
Caleb. I think she has to fight those individual battles *plus* do
something more.
Another reason I'm not sure the attack was inherently wrong.
I believe the failing that is being depicted in this episode is a little
different. I think it's her isolation that's supposed to be the problem.
Not the plan. A problem manifested by the general lack of understanding and
support for the attack going into it. Coming out of it... Well, we'll see.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> c) It's all about pride. To quote C.S.Lewis:
i think they missed the chance to have caleb lecture them on their sins
you know what your sin is buffy? pride
you know what your sin is faith? lust
you know what your sin is xnader? gluttony
after all caleb was helping fe make a better world
One Bit Shy
news:1160689391....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Elisi wrote:
>> The
>> Bringers and the Ubers are too mindless to care about much. But Caleb -
>> Caleb we can hate. Some see his introduction as a cop-out. I'm not so
>> sure. I think the viewers need someone to hate, someone to focus their
>> attention on. As OBS put it - he's a physical extension of The First.
>
> It's a good idea, but a banal execution. I suppose the argument is that
> true evil *is* rather banal. <Insert lengthy discussion of "Eichman in
> Jerusalem: On the Banality of Evil," by Hannah Arendt> If so, then I'd
> probably have enjoyed this character if he had been a perfectly normal
> looking, reasonable civil servant type--someone like Delores the Social
> Services Lady. Only: Evil. Bland, less amusing than the Mayor,
> colorless, and implacable.
Reading through these posts I find myself lost trying to distinguish the
general idea of The Frist and the specific idea of Caleb. When I said (more
offhand than perhaps I should have) that Caleb was a physical extension of
The First, I did not mean that he manifested all of The First. Indeed, we
know that because Caleb and The First converse with each other.
I was thinking more in terms of Caleb being his current main proxy - in a
war that we already know that The First uses proxies. In this case the link
seems stronger - Caleb is a true devotee. But in other ways not so much,
because Caleb still has his own personality.
So, for example, Caleb does represent pretty well a concept of pure evil -
both in the sense of absence of good and real malevolence in the evil. But
it is also an evil focused by Caleb's personal obsession towards misogyny.
The First itself is much broader than Caleb.
But, since The First doesn't manifest physically, then this is the narrower
physical tool available to it at the moment - narrowness of focus included.
Fortunately, The First itself is still available to speak in its more
ghostly guises.
That being said, I still think that the Caleb character serves a thematic
purpose beyond just his role as The First's muscle and sometimes mouthpiece.
Periodically through the season, The First has delivered messages about
power and the nature of the Slayer. Caleb is doing something similar, but
more directed at Buffy (talking to The First's version of Buffy), and more
specifically about the Slayer concept created by the Shadow Men. Sometimes
he's a stand in for the Shadow Men as much as he is for The First. There's
also a more immediate tie-in to the leadership theme - as in various remarks
about following. (Which has a double purpose, because that theme too ties
in ultimately to Slayers following Watchers, Shadow Men, Men.)
There are probably many possible ways of viewing the preacher choice. But
the way I take it is that aspects of faith are an important part of the
working of the series and this season. Faith in good senses, like belief in
the possibilities within Spike - and all the other redemptive stories. But
also misguided faith in dogma - belief systems founded on little more than
that's the way it's always been done. The Shadow Men saying this is all
there is. Giles saying this is how wars are won. Fundamental beliefs are
being challenged, represented by Buffy's series long challenge of the Slayer
model.
And it draws out passion. As in the Shadow Men whacking Buffy with a staff
to shut her up. And Giles losing it in angry speech and imprudent action.
And Buffy's own stubborn insistence on knowing the answer. It seems fitting
to me to have a nemesis spouting the language of faith to mock our intrepid
warriors.
I don't quite know how to react to your use of "banal" to describe this. I
hesitate 'cause I'm not exactly sure what it is you see as banal. The word
content doesn't strike me that way - not without thinking of all the themes
as banal anyway. And the style is grand mockery in classic form, which fits
what The First has been doing from the start. Mock. Mock. Mock.
OBS
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
news:mair_fheal-8308C...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > > Tactically (as WGF says) the attack plan was sound. But they really
> > > didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience of
> > > finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
> >
> > It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any more
> > information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
>
> some books wouldve advised sending one or two expendable people
> like kennedy and ummm kennedy
> to go into the cellar alone as point
> after they search it thoroughly
> they either die horribly with long gurgling screams
> signaling that there is something dangerous there
> or they come back out and say hey jackass its safe
>
> the idea not to put your whole force at risk
> or even half
> just the bare minimum to find any problem
>
> some ambushers are well enough placed to be undetected by the point or
flankers
> but a trained commander knows how to try to keep his troops safe
>
> buffy can be excused because she probably didnt read those books
> but she is smart enough to learn from her mistakes
>
> buffy approached it with the same kind of planning
> as her and faith jumping down a manhole to see what they find
>
>
I'm with you on this. Fur tbg ibgrq bss gur vfynaq orpnhfr bs ure
erpxyrffarff. She carried out a half-ass reconn mission followed by a hasty
and reckless field training mission. The latter was executed like a
pinic-outing with stupid "soap opera"-like chatting while entering "enemy
territory" (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4091):
MOLLY: What is this place?
BUFFY: Looks like an old vineyard.
KENNEDY: An evil vineyard, huh?
SPIKE: Like Falcon Crest.
BUFFY: Stay alert, you guys. Bringers are here
somewhere. Just need to find out where.
Can the audience yell "shhhhhhhhhhhhh"? What happened to all those hand
signals they learned from Riley? Like I said before, agent Finn would be
appalled if he were there.
On second thought, if he were there, he would have averted the totally
irresponsible "field training mission" turned disaster because he would have
carried out a proper reconn first. The least Buffy could do was to send
Faith in to take a closer look. Yes, Faith might have died as a result, but
that had to be done (because Faith would never have let Buffy go in alone
and had all the "fun").
One of the stupidest and reckless things I've ever heard is this:
"... Don't know, don't care. I'm tired of talking.
I'm tired of training. He's got something of mine?
Fine. I'm getting it back, and you guys are coming
with me." (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4088)
All because she was completely overloaded by having to provide for so many
girls. But I'd rather like to think of it as a momentary lapse of bad
writing quite worthy of those forgettable class "B" TV movies.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> On second thought, if he were there, he would have averted the totally
> irresponsible "field training mission" turned disaster because he would have
> carried out a proper reconn first. The least Buffy could do was to send
> Faith in to take a closer look. Yes, Faith might have died as a result, but
> that had to be done (because Faith would never have let Buffy go in alone
> and had all the "fun").
Or Faith would have gone in, observed Caleb, and a bunch of Bringers, so
she calls for everyone else to follow, and then Caleb springs his trap.
There was no recon that would have revealed Caleb's strength, until
Caleb chose to reveal it.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Having read most of the comments, I began thinking about Caleb (more
> than I've ever done before. He seems such a simple 'I'm EVIL'
> character, so could there be anything underneath? This is what I came
> up with:
Well, that and the embodiment of male oppression or whatever. Another
concept-as-enemy. except that he's human, which makes things different.
> First of all I thought about the different Big Bads, and how complex
> they were (or weren't):
>
> S1 had The Master, a stereo typical 'scary monster' right out of any
> fairy tale, suitable for the v. young Buffy.
> S2 had Spike, Dru and Angelus, all deliciously wicked, enjoying
> themselves and also being well-fleshed out characters. All about
> self-gratification and fun, they were dark mirrors of our teen heroes.
> S3 had The Mayor who was a delight in all his joyus evilness, and also
> represented authority gone awry (also see The Council).
> S4 had Adam, who I guess could be seen as an existential monster,
> pondering the world and working purely from reason, fitting, I guess,
> for a season where Buffy was at university, trying to work things out
> as an adult for the first time.
> S5 had Glory, totally self-obsessed without a thought for anyone else,
> the perfect foil for a Buffy who was looking at her Slayer powers and
> responsibility as never before.
> S6 had 'Life as the Big Bad', where the characters flaws and problems
> became real and tangible, and everything sprung from internal
> struggles.
Hmmm, that works nicely. I was thinking of them mainly in terms of
their resonance with the main cast for why they were worthy of being
Big Bads, but that stuff is part of it too.
> Caleb is eaten up by pride, and it has eradicated everything else
> within him - he has no redeeming features. No humour, no quirks, no
> entertaining vices, no thought for anything except himself.
I'm not seeing it that way. He's a rambler by nature, and spends lots
of time musing about questions like the thing about the white wine
drinkers, and talks about the emptiness in his life before he found the
First. That's the makings of a personality, not just an abstract.
Thinking about how he reflects on the main characters' lives as you did
with the other Big Bads might lead to other conclusions. In
particular, someone (Stephen or OBS, I think, but don't quote me on it.
It's late) suggested an idea that I like - that his occupation and his
total faith in evil are relevant in a season full of questioning faith
and establshed Slayer dogma.
> Seems fair. And if recall correctly, the writers were originally
> planning on actually _killing_ Xander in this episode. So it could have
> been worse...
Wow. That would've stunned me. Although in some ways leaving him
alive to deal with being maimed has quite an impact too, so that works.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-C092E8...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <oYGXg.131821$5R2.34192@pd7urf3no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > On second thought, if he were there, he would have averted the totally
> > irresponsible "field training mission" turned disaster because he would
have
> > carried out a proper reconn first. The least Buffy could do was to send
> > Faith in to take a closer look. Yes, Faith might have died as a result,
but
> > that had to be done (because Faith would never have let Buffy go in
alone
> > and had all the "fun").
>
> Or Faith would have gone in, observed Caleb, and a bunch of Bringers, so
> she calls for everyone else to follow, and then Caleb springs his trap.
>
> There was no recon that would have revealed Caleb's strength, until
> Caleb chose to reveal it.
>
>
strength because he knew there would be a stealthy Slayer taking a peek. Jub
xabjf jung Snvgu jbhyq unir frra? Vg'f nyy npnqrzvp abj. Fhccbfr Snvgu unq
frra ubj Pnyro'f zlfgvpny betnfz jvgu gur Svefg ghearq uvz vagb nyy Jvyybjl
oynpx-rlrq nsgrejneqf. Be fhccbfr Snvgu fnj ubj Pnyro unq gur Svefg
er-ranpgvat uvf rivy qrrqf. Jub xabjf?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
> In article <l64o-1rj5-6373F...@europe.isp.giganews.com>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <dsample-58D474...@news.giganews.com>,
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <l64o-1rj5-3E1DA...@europe.isp.giganews.com>,
> > > vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <1160607443.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > others. Help the girls who still need a teacher."
> > > >
> > > > *Looks up what usually follows hubris*
> > > >
> > > > didn't know enough and the one person with the greatest experience
of
> > > > finding stuff out is sent to the corner, 'cos Buffy's in a huffy....
> > >
> > > It wasn't a situation that reading books would have given them any
more
> > > information about. Intelligence gathering can only go on for so long,
it
> > > is that you are up against, you will never do anything. You will
never
> > > know everything that you want to know.
> >
> > So? They knew from Shannon's ventilated gut that there was a new player
> > in town who had used her as a very loud "Come and have a go if you think
> > you're hard enough" cry. That alone should have been cause for caution.
> >
> > Intelligence gathering is not just a matter for books.
>
> But that's the sort of intelligence gathering that Giles does. For
> other sorts of intelligence, someone has to go out and look for it. The
> only way for them to learn about Caleb's strength was to actually have a
> confrontation with him, and when they did that, someone was probably
> going to die The first confrontation with Caleb probably would have had
> casualties, whether Buffy did it now, or later.
>
> Up until now, Buffy has mostly been sitting back and waiting for the
> First to come after her. She was hoping that by acting now, she would
> take it by surprise, with an attack before it was ready. This turned
> out to be a mistake, but it was a reasonable one for her to make based
> on what she knew of the situation.
>
> And what might have happened if Buffy *didn't* attack then? What if the
> First's next move would have been to send Caleb and the Bringers against
> her, in her home? Would the outcome have been any different?
>
Lbh ner tvivat gur Svefg gbb zhpu perqvg. Erzrzore gur Svefg jnf npghnyyl
dhvgr qhzo guebhtubhg F7?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I like the content of that scene - though it is a bit wordy - but oddly, I
> didn't think Spike and Faith played all that well together. Maybe it's just
> me, but something felt a little disappointing about how non-edgy having two
> of the series' most dynamic characters together turned out to be.
Huh. Well, agree to disagree then, because the mix of regret and
exuberance works for me. They feed off each other.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-C092E8...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <oYGXg.131821$5R2.34192@pd7urf3no>,
> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On second thought, if he were there, he would have averted the
> > > totally irresponsible "field training mission" turned disaster
> > > because he would have carried out a proper reconn first. The
> > > least Buffy could do was to send Faith in to take a closer look.
> > > Yes, Faith might have died as a result, but that had to be done
> > > (because Faith would never have let Buffy go in alone and had all
> > > the "fun").
> >
> > Or Faith would have gone in, observed Caleb, and a bunch of
> > Bringers, so she calls for everyone else to follow, and then Caleb
> > springs his trap.
> >
> > There was no recon that would have revealed Caleb's strength, until
> > Caleb chose to reveal it.
> >
> >
> You are implicitly assuming that Caleb's MO was to deliberately hide
> his strength because he knew there would be a stealthy Slayer taking
> a peek.
Unless Caleb is doing something like bench-pressing a Ford when Faith
comes in to take her look, how's she going to be able to tell how strong
he is?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> comes in to take her look, how's she going to be able to tell how strong
> he is?
shoot a crossbow bolt at him?
Elisi
I obviously didn't explain myself properly! *g* I'm not saying that he
doesn't have a personality, but that his pesonality has become warped
and twisted, so that any parts of him that might once have been
attractive have now become tedious. He might once have been a great
preacher, but now his speeches leave a bad taste in the mouth. Not even
the fact that he is handsome makes people warm to him, as they did
Angelus and Spike. As is so often said, inner beauty is what matters...
> Thinking about how he reflects on the main characters' lives as you did
> with the other Big Bads might lead to other conclusions. In
> particular, someone (Stephen or OBS, I think, but don't quote me on it.
> It's late) suggested an idea that I like - that his occupation and his
> total faith in evil are relevant in a season full of questioning faith
> and establshed Slayer dogma.
Also it ties in with the redemption theme - we have several of the main
characters on the path of redemption (Willow, Spike, Anya, Andrew) -
some of them originally soulless demons. In Caleb we have the opposite
- a human so corrupted that he's past redemption:
Giles: In my experience, there are... two types of
monster. The first, uh, can be redeemed, or more importantly, wants to
be redeemed.
Buffy: And the second type?
Giles: The second is void of humanity, cannot respond to reason... or
love.
We saw Willow resoponding to Xander's love at the end of 'Grave',
although she seemed to have vanished in the darkness.
> > Seems fair. And if recall correctly, the writers were originally
> > planning on actually _killing_ Xander in this episode. So it could have
> > been worse...
>
> Wow. That would've stunned me. Although in some ways leaving him
> alive to deal with being maimed has quite an impact too, so that works.
Although if he _had_ been killed, the characters behaviour in the last
scene of 'Empty Places' might have been easier to understand... but
still. He's not dead, so I'm happy. :)
Ben Morrow
Quoth jjacoby1024-at-yahoo-dot-com:
>
> And it appears Willow has supplanted Spike as the
> strongest, unless you want to split hairs about
> "weapon" vs. "warrior".
Well, yeah. Willow is a weapon because she has to be actively forced
into using her power. Spike has become someone she can trust to fight to
the best of his ability.
--
Like all men in Babylon I have been a proconsul; like all, a slave ... During
one lunar year, I have been declared invisible; I shrieked and was not heard,
I stole my bread and was not decapitated.
~ benm...@tiscali.co.uk ~ Jorge Luis Borges, 'The Babylon Lottery'
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <oYGXg.131821$5R2.34192@pd7urf3no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > On second thought, if he were there, he would have averted the totally
> > irresponsible "field training mission" turned disaster because he would have
> > carried out a proper reconn first. The least Buffy could do was to send
> > Faith in to take a closer look. Yes, Faith might have died as a result, but
> > that had to be done (because Faith would never have let Buffy go in alone
> > and had all the "fun").
>
> Or Faith would have gone in, observed Caleb, and a bunch of Bringers, so
> she calls for everyone else to follow, and then Caleb springs his trap.
>
> There was no recon that would have revealed Caleb's strength, until
> Caleb chose to reveal it.
Perhaps not but there were ways of testing the enemy without placing a
bunch of inexperienced girls right in his crosshairs.
Buffy and Faith could have surveilled him until he left the winery, then
attacked when Caleb was alone out in the open without Bringer backup.
Giving themselves clear avenues of retreat should they need them and it
would allow them to use heavy weaponry to advantage (we still don't know
how impervious Caleb actually was).
Buffy could have done her normal punch and kick routine and when she
ended up getting her ass handed to her, Faith could have stepped in and
hit him with a few crossbow bolts or preferably a 12-gauge riot shotgun
loaded with rifled slug. Vs Ohssl pbhyq fyvpr uvz va unys jvgu na nkr, V
fhfcrpgrq n shyy bs bhapr bs yrnq chapuvat n ubyr gur fvmr bs n
tencrsehvg guebhtu uvz zvtug ng yrnfg fybj uvz qbja n ovg-- at least
long enough for Faith to gather Buffy up and get away.
Bottom line, they'd know what they were up against and no one would have
lost an eye and no potentials would be dead or maimed.
hayes62
Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> On 12 Oct 2006 15:03:01 -0700, hayes62 <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> > Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> >> Also
> >>
> >> Buffy: He won't be expecting a full attack? not this
> >> soon, that's why we have to move.
> >>
> >> How can she possibly know? Buffy seems to have forgotten
> >> The First can see and hear all that's going on in her house,
> >> and would know exactly the maximum strength she can bring to
> >> bear. Maybe Caleb didn't come into town, or The First
> >> summon him to town, *until* he was ready for anything,
> >> including a full attack.
> >>
> > Huh? When was it made clear that the First can do this? Or if it was,
> > when was Buffy made aware of it? Sure it got some information from
> > incarnating as Eve and by talking to Chloe and Andrew
>
> It briefly took over Willow when she tried a spell. It
> Also showed up inside the house as Spike. The "Joyce"
> in her dreams may also have been The First.
>
> > but I don't think
> > its been shown as anywhere near omniscient.
>
> The First has full control over if and when it want to
> show up. Buffy cannot control or predict its presence in her
> house.
>
> Buffy: You're right. We don't know how to fight it. We
> don't know when it'll come
>
> She's a pretty bright girl, it's safest to assume The First
> knows evverything that goes on in her house...
>
> Buffy: The First isn't impressed. It already knows us. It
> knows what we can do, and its laughing.
>
> So whether or not it really bothers to know everything, Buffy
> herself seems to believe it.
>
Knowing what people can do is very different from knowing what they
will do. It's called memory.The First knows she can beat up Ubervamps
but there's no indication that it's able to listen in to the precise
details of every planning session. If it could do that then there'd be
no point to researching or planning anything, they really might as
well sit there waiting for it to come and get the thing over with
already.
~H
hayes62
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> hayes62 <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> >> One unusual thing about Caleb is that he's misogynistic, but not really
> >> patriarchal. (Patriarchical?) He hates women, but he doesn't care for
> >> men either: "There once was a woman, and she was foul, like all women, for
> >> Adam's rib was dirty -- just like Adam himself -- for what was he, but
> >> human." Women are especially repulsive to him, but rather than preferring
> >> males to them, he prefers the First Evil. He doesn't evince much interest
> >> in maintaining any system of male domination, and he even rejects a
> >> partriarchal role for himself when he tells Shannon not to call him
> >> "father." I'm not sure if there is a point to this, or what it might be.
> >> Maybe the idea is to show a more fundamental misogyny that goes beyond any
> >> ordinary everyday sexism and patriarchy? Or maybe they just wanted the
> >> First to have a knowing human accomplice, and no one who only hated half
> >> of humanity would take on that role.
> >
> > Patriachy has to do with the belief that men should have power over
> > women, which doesn't necessarily require liking men. One feminist
> > criticism of patriachal systems is that they ultimately harm men as
> > much as women. What's become of Giles, as he reverts to the Council's
> > philosophies, is a possible example of this.Caleb not only despises
> > women he also clearly believes he has the right to do with them as he
> > will, that their natural position is to be followers. He believes he
> > has power over them, even the most poweful of them (the Slayer) once
> > she gets in line.
>
> Patriarchy has to do with the belief that men should have power over
> women. Caleb shows no interest in *men* having anything. He thinks that
> one particular man, he himself, personally has power over women. That
> isn't patriarchy so much as Calebarchy. (It's like the difference between
> me saying that Buffy fans should rule the world and saying that I, who
> happen to be a Buffy fan, should rule the world.)
>
Except that Caleb doesn't just happen to be a man and he very
specifically refers to the Bringers as his boys. A true Calebarch would
also be indifferent to the sex of those he chose to dominate. This one
very much isn't, it's always the women he goes for first. Men, like
Xander, are an afterthought. Spike he tosses aside without a word, it's
Faith who gets the biblically inspired rants and references to St Paul.
D'Hoffryn is clearly shown as a patriarch in Selfless but his business
is keeping his girls in line not ensuring that Lloyd et al get to do so
on equal terms with him. I think you were absolutely right about Caleb
being beyond all the examples we've seen though, in that he completely
rejects the benevolent "fatherly" aspects of patriachy leaving only the
contempt.
~H
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Don Sample
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
> Except that Caleb doesn't just happen to be a man and he very
> specifically refers to the Bringers as his boys. A true Calebarch would
> also be indifferent to the sex of those he chose to dominate.
We saw in "Storyteller" that the Bringers can be male and female. (At
least the people that become Bringers start out that way.)
Caleb referring to them as "my boys" might just be like talking about
"the guys" at work. It doesn't really mean that they are all male.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Ack, I've started a semantic dispute, which was not my intent. (Not this
time.) What you say above is true, but it's still what I would consider
"misogyny" rather than "patriarchy." Maybe I'm just putting the dividing
line in the wrong place. They are separate but closely related concepts,
like "racism" and "xenophobia," or "good taste" and "Buffy fandom."
--Chris
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> It's probably tacky to do this now, when he's going to be offline
>> for weeks, but I disagree with Scythe about Xander's speech being
>> "un-Xander-like."
>
> Except that having just responded to his post, that's not what he was
> saying (unless you're referring to something else).
Hmm. On first reading I thought he was saying that calling on others to
trust Buffy was un-Xander-like. Rereading it more carefully, I now think
he meant that it was un-Xander-like to have no apparent reservations.
Maybe this is wrong too. Scythe, if you're reading this sometime in the
future and I did misinterpret you, I apologize!
--Chris
ps: Thanks for your kind words about my first post, AOQ. I usually feel
far outclassed by the more thoughtful writers here, so any praise is
reassuring.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> Of course having a misogynist villain is also pretty obvious, but it's
>> appropriate enough to have another one of those as the series draws toward
>> its climax. Despite the lack of subtlety, I think Caleb actually works
>> better than the Shadow Men did. In one episode we learn enough about him
>> for Caleb to emerge as a real character, rather than just a symbol. This
>> never happened with the Shadow Men -- their personalities and motivations
>> were left blank, so they come across as Symbols of Patriarchy rather than
>> characters, even one-dimensional ones.
>
> Interesting. I didn't think of the Shadow Men as Badguys in the same
> way Caleb or Adam or Glory is. They are patriarchal, yes, but they are
> aligned with humanity against the demon realm. They're obscure
> characters, highly symbolic, as you say, and not clearly categorizable.
> Which to me makes them fairly interesting.
Kind of a late reply here.... I agree with your view of the Shadow Men as
being aligned with humanity, but unfortunately they were used in a pretty
negative way in Get It Done. If not quite villains, they were at least
serving a villainous role in the story by being symbols of patriarchy.
Hence we have Buffy fighting them, denouncing them as "just men," breaking
the phallic staff, etc. I like to think that the Shadow Men really were
doing morally questionable things because they thought it was necessary
for the greater good, which to me is more interesting than making them
purely bad. But GID leaves it ambiguous enough that it they could equally
well have been raging misogynists who created the first Slayer from
unpleasant motives like thinking a girl would be naturally controllable,
or simply expendable. This is a case where I think ambiguity actually
leads the viewer to the simpler, less interesting interpretation.
--Chris
Michael Ikeda
news:1160732250.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> Although if he _had_ been killed, the characters behaviour in
> the last scene of 'Empty Places' might have been easier to
> understand... but still. He's not dead, so I'm happy. :)
I think Xander being there as a visible reminder of failure actually
ends up having a stronger emotional impact on the Scoobies, and most
importantly on Willow. It's a good guess that Willow spends a lot of
her spare time between "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places" at Xander's
hospital bedside. And every moment she spends there hammers home a
Buffy's miscalculation.
As long as Buffy has the support of Xander OR Willow she could
probably win at least grudging acceptance from the others. Lose them
both, and her leadership position is in trouble. And I suspect those
hours at Xander's bedside is when Buffy loses Willow.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> purely bad. But GID leaves it ambiguous enough that it they could equally
> well have been raging misogynists who created the first Slayer from
> unpleasant motives like thinking a girl would be naturally controllable,
> or simply expendable. This is a case where I think ambiguity actually
> leads the viewer to the simpler, less interesting interpretation.
throughout most of history a community could lose most sperm producers
and continue
but losing even a small fractions of its wombs
would put its future in serious risk
women and children first was not so men could be all valiant
but because women were more valuable to a community than men
a man might be important but men werent
(even in hunter gather food production the bulk of calories and nutrients
are provided by women not men)
that all changed through the last century
when it became important to slow down reproduction
making a glut on the womb market and devaluing women
which means its now economically practicable to use women for other jobs
like soldiers
about 15000 years ago older men came up with a strategy
to gain power despite their lesser value
and thats to team up with disaffected young men
give the young men an illusion of value
and use their strength to control women
whedon has used his slayer story to show this power struggle
and the recent evolution of the devalued status of women
the watchers and the shadow men are the patriarchy controlling the fate of women
and preventing them from forming their own organization with matching power
and while travers appears contemptuous of individual slayers
even he acknowledges one slayer is more powerful than all his watchers
hence the attempt in checkpoint to daunt buffy in submission
because he knew he couldnt force it
the blonde chick in the alley would scream for help
because the theory is some guy would show up
and while he is being slaughtered she scampers off to safety
to live and reproduce another day
(if he lives his genetic fitness might be rewarded by her
and if he dies there are plenty more studs in the lea)
now the patriarchy is decapitated
and perhaps the first time a slayer is in direct contact with her successor
as faith and buffy are able to establish a direct continuity
that bypasses the watchers
it will be interesting if this incident forges a new power structure
that alters the whole slayer-watcher dynamic
from the sophistication of dress and artifact
i would guess the shadow men are from the beginnings of agriculture
where this power game began
they wouldnt hate women
they would know women are vital to their continued survival
(even more pointedly so with the slayer killing their demon enemies)
but they would want to control the women
and exploit their power for their own status
the watchers again are about controlling the slayers
a rogue slayer like faith is a dnager to humanity
and a renegade like buffy is a danger to their power and status
caleb didnt learn to understand his emotional response to women
and so a different issue than the usual patriarchy kicks in
he felt dirty and ashamed that he desired women
rather than accepting lust is a natural and healthy reaction
which needs to be channeled not denied
but the denial curdled inside of him
and became anger and hatred which could be directed inward (depression)
or turned outward at the object of his confusion
thus he becomes a woman hating self loathing bastard
which a satan b first evil c azarel d choose other
could exploit his illness and destroy his personality
combine his illness with a malignant implementation of the patriarchy
and get a real son of a bitch
though sadly the real caleb wouldve died years ago
and now this mockery of humanity walks in his body
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-F980C...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Wow. Overanalyze much?
Malsperanza
Apteryx wrote:
> "Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > I get the impression this is like the crack-magic storyline from last
> > season. People who've watched too much American TV think this is a
> > cliché. People who haven't can appreciate the story for its own
> > quality. :)
>
> I said caricature, not cliche. Pretty much the only American fictional TV I
> have seen since BtVS ended, apart from AtS on DVD and a few episodes of
> Firefly and House, is The Simpsons, and I'm not saying there's a connection
> between Caleb and Rev Lovejoy. And he's a caricature because, well he is. He
> takes characteristics of mysoginists, rednecks, and the formerly religious
> who still hang on to some of the trappings of religions they no longer
> believe in, and blows them up to near comic proportions.
I wish Caleb *had* been more comical--comical and lethal. That would at
least have been interesting. Alas, it's not just American TV where this
caricature turns up (and I also consider it a cliche): it's movies,
plays, novels, comics, etc. I haven't owned a TV in 30 years, but I
still trip over Rev. Southbigot constantly. American culture is rather
fixated on Southern tropes--second only to Mafia tropes. I'm tired of
all of 'em.
> >>Yeah, but if Buffy's the general and all, shouldn't Wood be leaving the
> >>decision to her as to whether she spends part of her day working? Unless
> >>of
> >>course he's just being tactful and he's actually sacking her because the
> >>kids really need a competent counselor.
> >
> > Or, he's being nasty and spiteful, and getting his revenge on her for
> > what she said to him last episode. "It's the mission that matters",
> > eh?
Except that's also a funny scene ("...aaaand, you're fired again"). I
thought Wood was trying to be helpful: relieving Buffy of the
responsibility of turning up at school when she has so much else on her
plate, and the students are barely showing up anymore. It didn't seem
so snarky to me. FWIW.
~Mal
Clairel
--I agree. I thought the Spike/Faith scene in "Dirty Girls" was great.
I'd been waiting ever since season 4 for some follow-up to the Bronze
Spike/Fuffy scene, and in the end it was very well done.
AOQ talked about how Buffy was so calm when she walked into the
basement and saw the two of them sitting together, but he didn't
comment on how Spike immediately got nervous and defensive, turned his
head to one side, and ran his hand through his hair. I always found
that adorably amusing.
Of course one would have to remember Evil Faith's attempts to steal
Angel and Riley from Buffy, to get the whole effect of this scene.
Clairel
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1160689391....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Elisi wrote:
>
>
> >> The
> >> Bringers and the Ubers are too mindless to care about much. But Caleb -
> >> Caleb we can hate. Some see his introduction as a cop-out. I'm not so
> >> sure. I think the viewers need someone to hate, someone to focus their
> >> attention on. As OBS put it - he's a physical extension of The First.
> >
> > It's a good idea, but a banal execution. I suppose the argument is that
> > true evil *is* rather banal. <Insert lengthy discussion of "Eichman in
> > Jerusalem: On the Banality of Evil," by Hannah Arendt> If so, then I'd
> > probably have enjoyed this character if he had been a perfectly normal
> > looking, reasonable civil servant type--someone like Delores the Social
> > Services Lady. Only: Evil. Bland, less amusing than the Mayor,
> > colorless, and implacable.
>
> Reading through these posts I find myself lost trying to distinguish the
> general idea of The Frist and the specific idea of Caleb.
Heh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and he shall be The Frist for the
rest of this post, but the good people of Tennessee beg to differ.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
> When I said (more
> offhand than perhaps I should have) that Caleb was a physical extension of
> The First, I did not mean that he manifested all of The First. Indeed, we
> know that because Caleb and The First converse with each other.
>
> I was thinking more in terms of Caleb being his current main proxy - in a
> war that we already know that The Frist uses proxies. In this case the link
> seems stronger - Caleb is a true devotee. But in other ways not so much,
> because Caleb still has his own personality.
>
> So, for example, Caleb does represent pretty well a concept of pure evil -
> both in the sense of absence of good and real malevolence in the evil. But
> it is also an evil focused by Caleb's personal obsession towards misogyny.
> The First itself is much broader than Caleb.
>
> But, since The First doesn't manifest physically, then this is the narrower
> physical tool available to it at the moment - narrowness of focus included.
> Fortunately, The First itself is still available to speak in its more
> ghostly guises.
>
> That being said, I still think that the Caleb character serves a thematic
> purpose beyond just his role as The First's muscle and sometimes mouthpiece.
> Periodically through the season, The First has delivered messages about
> power and the nature of the Slayer. Caleb is doing something similar, but
> more directed at Buffy (talking to The First's version of Buffy), and more
> specifically about the Slayer concept created by the Shadow Men. Sometimes
> he's a stand in for the Shadow Men as much as he is for The First.
That's rather striking. I see the connection you're drawing, but it
seems odd to me because it suggests, however obliquely, that the Shadow
Men were also in cahoots with the Frist, back in the day. But on the
contrary, they created the Slayer as a weapon against the Frist and Its
demons. Caleb may be a degenerate descendent of the Shadow Men--what
the worst of them became, crossing over to the Dark Side. But the
linear connection between the Shadow Men and the Watchers' Council
seems much more clear to me.
I'm not sure I see the Shadow Men as so evil or so dogmatic. They are
wise men, who are wrong mainly in their failure to adapt to the new
kind of Slayer Buffy represents. What they did worked for millennia.
Harsh toward the girls? Yes, even criminally so. But not at the level
of what Caleb does to girls, nor for anything like the same motives.
Indeed, however cruel the Shadow Men were toward the girls who became
Slayers (which led to their deaths), their motives were sound. Caleb
seems to have no motives at all, except simpleminded sadism.
I guess I don't see what the message of such a connection would be. To
connect the Shadow Men with the First Evil would invert the whole
history of the Slayer we've been learning. It would root the Slayer's
genesis in the aims and plans of the First Evil, somehow. But perhaps
I'm reading too much into the connection you're drawing.
I think one of the reasons Caleb irritates me so so much is that I
sense a kind of fuzziness in the writers here. They toss in an Evol
Misogynist because that's Grrl Power is a big theme of the show, and
people who suppress women are automatically badguys. They make him a
ranting Calvinist (more or less) because organized religion is tagged
as evol, in opposition to freedom of thought, wicca goodness, and a
general, nonspecific concept of faith. Figuring out the implications of
this character seems to be too much trouble. It's not the first time
that's happened (e.g., the implications of telepathy are not sorted out
well), but it seems more important now, at this moment, so near the
end. And as you say, Caleb is the First's main proxy. He gets a lot of
screen time. We're meant to take him seriously as the epitome of
everything that threatens the Buffster way of life. (Whereas Glory was
a kind of mockery-parody of Buffy herself: what the Valley Girl might
become if her powers ran amok and she had no moral base.)
> There's
> also a more immediate tie-in to the leadership theme - as in various remarks
> about following. (Which has a double purpose, because that theme too ties
> in ultimately to Slayers following Watchers, Shadow Men, Men.)
>
> There are probably many possible ways of viewing the preacher choice. But
> the way I take it is that aspects of faith are an important part of the
> working of the series and this season. Faith in good senses, like belief in
> the possibilities within Spike - and all the other redemptive stories. But
> also misguided faith in dogma - belief systems founded on little more than
> that's the way it's always been done. The Shadow Men saying this is all
> there is. Giles saying this is how wars are won. Fundamental beliefs are
> being challenged, represented by Buffy's series long challenge of the Slayer
> model.
Come to think of it, I should be grateful that the Caleb formula is not
"balanced" by that other odious pop culture caricature, the Wise and
Kindly Priest, full of piety, bonhommie, and Irish "r"s. Actually, come
to think of it, if the Bing Crosby/Spencer Tracy Kindly Priest had been
the First's mouthpiece, *that* might have been witty. And the misogyny
would have shown up of its own accord, without being so forced. Ah
well.
> And it draws out passion. As in the Shadow Men whacking Buffy with a staff
> to shut her up. And Giles losing it in angry speech and imprudent action.
> And Buffy's own stubborn insistence on knowing the answer. It seems fitting
> to me to have a nemesis spouting the language of faith to mock our intrepid
> warriors.
>
> I don't quite know how to react to your use of "banal" to describe this. I
> hesitate 'cause I'm not exactly sure what it is you see as banal.
Banal, as in "devoid of freshness or originality; stale; hackneyed;
trite; drearily commonplace and predictable." Caleb is nothing if not
predictible, both in his behavior and in his language. (With the
exception of his speculation on Jesus's lymphatic system, which
squicked me, but was at least distinctive.)
Or, banal on several levels. At its best, the Caleb caricature argues
that True Evol is most terrible and dangerous when it resides in people
who look like trustworthy custodians of our ethical and moral lives.
Hence the trope of the Evol Priest is a very easy, and thus very
overused figure. Fast message: Conservative religion = hypocritical =
Evol.
IMO the equation is banal and fatuous (smug, foolishly complacent
because it relieves us of the obligation to actually think about what
conservative religion is all about and why people express faith in that
way. The figure of Caleb does nothing to explore or investigate or come
to grips with any of that. He just stands for simple, easy-to-buy
generalities: Intolerance, Bigotry, Hypocrisy, Hubris, all of which are
expressed or concretized as violence against women, which in turn is
listed under the rubric of: Religion, Everything That Is Wrong With.
> The word
> content doesn't strike me that way - not without thinking of all the themes
> as banal anyway. And the style is grand mockery in classic form, which fits
> what The First has been doing from the start. Mock. Mock. Mock.
The Frist was a witty, subtle-minded mocker when It appeared as Joyce
to Dawn, as Buffy to Spike, as Cassie to Willow. It mocked
perceptively, knowing the hearts of Its victims. And It was at times
both amused and amusing. Even in Its conversations with Caleb It
occasionally shows glimpses of a depth of meaning beyond just "We'll
Wiiiiin, and then I'll kill Everyone!!!111!11ZOMG!!1!!!" But Caleb
throws all that away in favor of hitting us over the head repeatedly
with that "Conservative religion = hypocritical = Evol" placard.
Actually, there are a few moments when the Frist seems to be mocking
Caleb, which I kind of enjoyed.
It must bother me a lot since I can't seem to talk about anything else.
Stereotypes just bug me, even when I have no sympathy with the types
they are stereoing. BTVS has mostly managed to subvert stereotypes
quite brilliantly, so this is doubly a disappointment.
But I'll stop now.
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> IMO the equation is banal and fatuous (smug, foolishly complacent
> because it relieves us of the obligation to actually think about what
> conservative religion is all about and why people express faith in that
> way. The figure of Caleb does nothing to explore or investigate or come
part of the problem is that in the usa
many conservative christians arent christians