AOQ Angel Review 3-22: "Tomorrow"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
ANGEL
Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
(or "Angel sleeps with the fishes")
Writer: David Greenwalt
Director: David Greenwalt
A quick look at the text of the letter confirms that Connor's assumed
name is spelled "Steven." Well, since he goes back to being Connor
here, we don't have to think much about that.
As far as the actual content of Holtz's letter, which we see again,
knowing what we do now helps one appreciate how loaded all the language
is. "My only prayer is that I have prepared you well enough for
whatever lies ahead." It's got to seem like a direct command to
him. From there the episode plays out as almost an impending tragedy.
Connor appears to be embracing this family as never before, and there
is a heartwarming vibe there that comes through very well. This time
the audience knows for a fact that he's just waiting to strike, while
everyone else is obliviously happy. He thinks of Angel as "The
Prince Of Lies," but he's the one who, like his "father,"
excels at manufacturing affection with nothing underneath. That
doesn't quite carry things along for the full hour without starting
to feel slow, but it comes close.
It was nice to see the roll of guest stars; unlike certain seasons
whose numbers will not be mentioned, all the big players are out for
the finale. Even if their parts are limited; Linwood and Gavin are
basically there to remind us that they and their firm still exist, for
instance.
Lilah Morgan, on the other hand, has a somewhat more prominent part
("You care." "As one human being to another. Just kidding").
Given that he's been doing his own storyline for a scene or two each
week and not interacting with his former allies, I meant to refer to
Wesley as the Spike of ATS last week, but forgot. I was enjoying the
idea that not being part of this thing that Fred (and the others) are
caught up in might move him to accept the job offer and maybe try to
beat Big Bad at its own game. His story doesn't really advance so
much as come to a stopping point (people usually call me to task when I
say that a sex scene doesn't change things, but it's true), but I
appreciate having these sequences because they helped me get a better
handle on something that hadn't been quite clear. "Tomorrow"
drives home what the loss of his self-confidence has done to Wesley.
He's totally defeated here, no faith in himself. The rejections
he's experienced throughout his life are likely prominent in his
mind, and unlike other times we've seen him like this, he doesn't
have real friends who can pull him back. Buffyverse characters are
sometimes accused of forgiving their friends too easily. Well,
here's the other extreme - one of our heroes needs forgiveness and
doesn't receive it: see what it turns him into.
Lorne's decision to take off makes sense given both his discomfort (I
can appreciate the resentment after the time he spent with baby Connor)
and the fact that, well, he misses the life. Maybe he's pulling for
his own spinoff. I enjoyed the idea of _Songs For The Love-Lorne_, and
confess to being vaguely curious what's on it (you know someone
must've made at least a tracklist, if not an actual record). But the
way he's used as a plot bunny who exists in the service of the less
than thrilling Angel/Cordelia romance is less than thrilling.
Groosalugg also plays this role before disappearing into the night,
apparently giving up the only job in the world (were they paying him?)
which would let him put his sword-wielding barbarian skills to use.
The opening actually does a lot to illustrate why I never bought the
romance between Groo and Cordelia - I can't see her hanging around
for that long with someone who doesn't appreciate her wordplay. Not
that I'm exactly an A/C "'shipper" either. Our two would-be
romantic leads come off as passive rather than passionate, with
outsiders rather than emotional depth driving them together and apart.
Cordelia having a conversation with herself struck me as particularly
dumb, but after seeing that the end of the story involves a
supernatural transformation for her, it strikes me as dumb, still.
[Addendum: Didn't notice this on my own, but now I am aware that
everything coming from Window!Cordy is actually from her conversation
with Skip.] I do think the series dropped the ball on this one, since
I came into S3 fairly open to the possibility of this pairing, and now
have no interest in anything other than not having my time wasted with
it. In this particular episode, it's only here to do a "what
might've been" thing, really.
Thoughts on Angel's predicament:
Once he started telling Connor that he loved him, resigned to his
unpleasant situation, I got my own sinking (ha) feeling that probably
mirrors that of the original viewers - holy shit, those bastards are
going to do a cliffhanger, aren't they? The writers are nasty
people. As are Connor and Justine - the vengeance they have in mind
got to me. I'm a little claustrophobic, so the idea of being
immobilized like that and not able to die (well, slow starvation, I
guess) is positively frightening, and it's grandiose enough to match
the buildup. I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
bear, especially given that I need a break from the reviewing, but the
wait seems like a painful proposition. I'd say it's having the
intended effect, yes?
Thoughts on the ending montage:
An interesting choice to focus on Gunn and Fred as the ones left
behind. They're the two members of the group who're part of the
main cast but who don't go back with us to Sunnydale. And they're
the closest to "normal" people we're going to get on this show.
Not quite sure what the future could have in store for them. The final
sequence as everyone drifts away in opposite directions is quite nice
(good music throughout this week), helped me come to terms with the
evil, evil cliffhanger, and produced a few other thoughts that'll
require a separate post since I'm not defiling the review with them.
Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
There's some good stuff here, like the ways it follows up on the
season's longest running thread, and leaves me seriously wondering
whether and in what capacity Cordelia will come back. If one accepts
the way ATS operates, it works quite well. I think it also highlights
a weakness of ATS, though; this has more to do with the series than
with "Tomorrow" in particular. It's the whole Powers That Be
factor. They're an outside force who treat humanoids as "lesser
beings" and call the shots for them. Submission to their will is
treated as a virtue, coming across as the noble thing to do.
(Digression: Yes, there's a trace of ambiguity here that I'm not
ignoring - are the PTB really all about Good? For instance, here
they conveniently call on Cordy just in time to keep her from being
there with Angel and Connor. All fine and dandy, but if the show never
has anyone ask those questions out loud while continuing to glorify
submission, it's not such a factor.)
The comparisons to _Buffy_ (and _Firefly_ too, but this is long enough
already) are unavoidable here. BTVS is a show whose protagonist is
just some 5'2 blonde, but who emerges as a bona fide hero. The main
characters' lives often suck, and that's not because of a grand
design, it's because they sometimes make bad choices and because life
itself often sucks. Yet they find strength through their own will and
through each other, and a major theme of the show is defying the fate
set in stone by the (supernatural/adult) world and creating new options
for oneself. ATS is a show about an ancient demon who can't always
deal with change. The main characters' lives often suck because a
higher power stops by and declares it to be so, and although they
don't always follow the rules in their own world (see "Double Or
Nothing"), they make the big sacrifices in blind acceptance of their
fate when the PTB come calling. Which of these is a more satisfying
and, dare I say, a more empowering worldview? I know where my
sympathies lie.
Thoughts on Season Three:
Finally ATS comes into its own. Even with the forays into melodrama
and the ill-advised diversions mid-season, _Angel_ had momentum this
year and stuck with it. S3 started a bit slow, but episodes like
"Billy" and "Lullaby" are a good demonstration of how to build
to transitional episodes that can be the belated climax of old stories
while starting new ones... a skill that they'd perfected by the time
of "Forgiving." I was worried about post-Sahjhan letdown, but
Connor's story snapped very effectively into place, while continuing
the ATS tradition of being a very inward-looking show, about
individuals and angst rather than apocalypse-plurals. It could be
argued that the difference compared to S2 is that S3 used more
series-specific players and fewer _Buffy_ holdovers, but that's more
coincidence than anything else; the Darla arc last year was also
something that felt like it could only be done on ATS. But although S2
reached some high peaks, it was hampered at every turn by the show's
frustratingly persistent inability to properly resolve the fascinating
stories it set up; I remember S2 just as much for disappointments like
"Redefinition" and its immediate follow-ups, "Epiphany," and of
course Pylea. Not so much of that in the final third of this season
- and this time it's really the final third that dominates my
perceptions of S3, since the period from "Loyalty" on is easily the
best continuous run in ATS's lifetime.
All right, then. Have a good summer.
So...
One-sentence summary: A solid cliffhanger to cap off a good year.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Three ratings:
1) "Heartthrob" - Decent
2) "That Vision-Thing" - Good
3) "That Old Gang Of Mine" - Decent
4) "Carpe Noctem" - Decent
5) "Fredless" - Good
6) "Billy" - Good
7) "Offspring" - Decent
8) "Quickening" - Good
9) "Lullaby" - Good
10) "Dad" - Decent
11) "Birthday" - Good
12) "Provider" - Weak
13) "Waiting In The Wings" - Decent
14) "Couplet" - Decent
15) "Loyalty" - Excellent
16) "Sleep Tight" - Good
17) "Forgiving" - Excellent
18) "Double Or Nothing" - Decent
19) "The Price" - Good
20) "A New World" - Good
21) "Benediction" - Excellent
22) "Tomorrow" - Good]
BY THE NUMBERS
_Angel_ Season Three
Bad - 0
Weak - 1
Decent - 8
Good - 10
Excellent - 3
Average rating: 3.68 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 59%
_Angel_ so far
Bad - 1
Weak - 4
Decent - 28
Good - 25
Excellent - 8
Ratings by season:
S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
S3: Mean = 3.68, 59% quality
Series so far: Mean= 3.53, 50% quality
Clairel
--Truer than you know, perhaps. In discussion forums, Wes's character
changes have been almost as controversial as Spike's. There seem to be
some viewers who just can't accept huge character changes, even when
they're charted out bit by bit from week to week in a way that makes
perfect sense.
last week, but forgot. I was enjoying the
> idea that not being part of this thing that Fred (and the others) are
> caught up in might move him to accept the job offer and maybe try to
> beat Big Bad at its own game. His story doesn't really advance so
> much as come to a stopping point (people usually call me to task when I
> say that a sex scene doesn't change things, but it's true), but I
> appreciate having these sequences because they helped me get a better
> handle on something that hadn't been quite clear. "Tomorrow"
> drives home what the loss of his self-confidence has done to Wesley.
> He's totally defeated here, no faith in himself. The rejections
> he's experienced throughout his life are likely prominent in his
> mind, and unlike other times we've seen him like this, he doesn't
> have real friends who can pull him back. Buffyverse characters are
> sometimes accused of forgiving their friends too easily. Well,
> here's the other extreme - one of our heroes needs forgiveness and
> doesn't receive it: see what it turns him into.
--The way you describe Wes at this point in time certainly seems
accurate. So where do you see him going from here? What do you
anticipate for Wes at the beginning of season 4 (assuming you haven't
watched episode 4.1 yet, and I hope you haven't, because I think a
pause is really necessary for dramatic purposes).
--Even more frightening than you think, because for vampires there is
no such thing as death by starvation. They just get weaker and weaker,
and more and more miserable, but their suffering continues ad infinitum
unless somebody comes along and stakes them or cuts off their heads.
(Remember what Spike told Giles in the BtVS episode "Pangs"? Living
skeletons, mate!) This is the cruelest, most prolonged torture
imaginable. Truly appalling.
, and it's grandiose enough to match
> the buildup. I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
> bear, especially given that I need a break from the reviewing
--Good to hear that, but do tell what you anticipate and speculate as
to the beginning of season 4. For me, anticipation and speculation are
a big part of the experience of viewing any serialized drama (or, to a
lesser extent, even a single-sitting standalone drama: when you go to
a live stage play that's new to you, during intermission aren't you
always thinking and talking about how the plot will turn out?).
--Hooboy, is it ever hard to resist the temptation to say something
spoilery here. Let me leave it at this: although there may be some
things about season 4 that you won't like, in one particular respect I
think you'll be well pleased.
> The comparisons to _Buffy_ (and _Firefly_ too, but this is long enough
> already) are unavoidable here. BTVS is a show whose protagonist is
> just some 5'2 blonde, but who emerges as a bona fide hero. The main
> characters' lives often suck, and that's not because of a grand
> design, it's because they sometimes make bad choices and because life
> itself often sucks. Yet they find strength through their own will and
> through each other, and a major theme of the show is defying the fate
> set in stone by the (supernatural/adult) world and creating new options
> for oneself. ATS is a show about an ancient demon who can't always
> deal with change. The main characters' lives often suck because a
> higher power stops by and declares it to be so, and although they
> don't always follow the rules in their own world (see "Double Or
> Nothing"), they make the big sacrifices in blind acceptance of their
> fate when the PTB come calling. Which of these is a more satisfying
> and, dare I say, a more empowering worldview? I know where my
> sympathies lie.
--Well, my interest has always been with the centuries-old vampiric
demons rather than with the human girl and her human pals. So, once I
got over my antipathy toward David Boreanaz and Angel (which is an
individual thing and really has no bearing on my overall tastes and
interests), I naturally found AtS very congenial. Whereas the thing I
really love about seasons 2 through 7 of BtVS is the presence in it of
my favorite vampire character, Spike. And I especially liked the way
he interacted with Buffy. So the character of Buffy, per se, is sort
of involved in why I liked BtVS, but not for the same reasons you're
talking about, and really only in a supporting capacity. The fact that
I can't summon up any enthusiasm for the Spikeless season 1 of BtVS
speaks for itself, I guess.
Bottom line is, I understand what you're saying here about the two
shows, AOQ, but I don't share all your sentiments. You tend to stand
back and look at the overall premise of the show, whereas I go with
likings for individual characters. I love Spike . . . I like Fred . .
. I enjoy the way Wesley has developed over the years . . . Andrew
amuses me to no end . . . for me, those are the decisive factors.
> Thoughts on Season Three:
> Finally ATS comes into its own. Even with the forays into melodrama
> and the ill-advised diversions mid-season, _Angel_ had momentum this
> year and stuck with it. S3 started a bit slow, but episodes like
> "Billy" and "Lullaby" are a good demonstration of how to build
> to transitional episodes that can be the belated climax of old stories
> while starting new ones... a skill that they'd perfected by the time
> of "Forgiving." I was worried about post-Sahjhan letdown
--Do you expect Sahjahn will ever get out of that urn, or will the
writers just forget about him in future?
, but
> Connor's story snapped very effectively into place, while continuing
> the ATS tradition of being a very inward-looking show, about
> individuals and angst rather than apocalypse-plurals. It could be
> argued that the difference compared to S2 is that S3 used more
> series-specific players and fewer _Buffy_ holdovers, but that's more
> coincidence than anything else; the Darla arc last year was also
> something that felt like it could only be done on ATS. But although S2
> reached some high peaks, it was hampered at every turn by the show's
> frustratingly persistent inability to properly resolve the fascinating
> stories it set up; I remember S2 just as much for disappointments like
> "Redefinition" and its immediate follow-ups, "Epiphany," and of
> course Pylea.
--I totally disagree about season 2, but I'm glad you enjoyed season 3.
Season 3 would probably be my favorite season if I didn't love 4 and 5
so much. What can you say when a show just keeps on going upward and
upward? (IMO, of course.)
Clairel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> knowing what we do now helps one appreciate how loaded all the language
my feeling is that when holtz saw the newborn connor
and he put down his crossbow as if in mercy
what he was really thinking was remembering throwing his daughter into the sun
and so he decided at that moment that somehow he would get custody of connor
abuse and twist the boy
so that at some point he could set father against son
best for him would be angel kills connor so angel has to live with that forever
second best is that connor kills angle and his revenge fulfilled
he would probably like this with angel knowing the blow comes from connor
holtz was one twisted bastige
> handle on something that hadn't been quite clear. "Tomorrow"
> drives home what the loss of his self-confidence has done to Wesley.
> He's totally defeated here, no faith in himself. The rejections
or maybe he does have faith in himself
and this is his ploy to trick lilah into trusting him
> Thoughts on the ending montage:
and of course the obvious contrast that cordelia rises into the light
while fallen angel sinks into the darkness
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> --Do you expect Sahjahn will ever get out of that urn, or will the
> writers just forget about him in future?
do you have sahjahn in the can?
then i guess you better let him out
what do you call a sahjahn when he isnt a sahjahn?
when hes ajar
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
> There's some good stuff here, like the ways it follows up on the
> season's longest running thread, and leaves me seriously wondering
> whether and in what capacity Cordelia will come back. If one accepts
> the way ATS operates, it works quite well. I think it also highlights
> a weakness of ATS, though; this has more to do with the series than
> with "Tomorrow" in particular. It's the whole Powers That Be
> factor. They're an outside force who treat humanoids as "lesser
> beings" and call the shots for them. Submission to their will is
> treated as a virtue, coming across as the noble thing to do.
> (Digression: Yes, there's a trace of ambiguity here that I'm not
> ignoring - are the PTB really all about Good? For instance, here
> they conveniently call on Cordy just in time to keep her from being
> there with Angel and Connor. All fine and dandy, but if the show never
> has anyone ask those questions out loud while continuing to glorify
> submission, it's not such a factor.)
Skip's whole "you used your powers for good, so now you can ascend"
spiel would have been a lot more convincing if we were ever given any
indication that Cordy had any conscious control over her powers.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Elisi
Well she has *some* control...
Skip: "They bet the farm on you. Power corrupts. And they gave you a
lot of power."
Cordy: "The glowy thing."
Skip: "Which you used well - to fight evil, and heal Connor."
Cordy: "And only that one time as a night light. - Bad dreams."
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> (or "Angel sleeps with the fishes")
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
> A quick look at the text of the letter confirms that Connor's assumed
> name is spelled "Steven." Well, since he goes back to being Connor
> here, we don't have to think much about that.
>
> As far as the actual content of Holtz's letter, which we see again,
> knowing what we do now helps one appreciate how loaded all the language
> is. "My only prayer is that I have prepared you well enough for
> whatever lies ahead." It's got to seem like a direct command to
> him.
And he gets his vengeance from beyond the grave...
> He thinks of Angel as "The
> Prince Of Lies," but he's the one who, like his "father,"
> excels at manufacturing affection with nothing underneath.
The thing about Angel is that he's trying to make up for 140 years of
evil. He feels guilty, and helps others... but far more than that we
now see him being put through the same miseries that he excelled at
creating. There is a sense in which he can't complain, because this is
what he has earned... will get back to that.
> Lilah Morgan, on the other hand, has a somewhat more prominent part
> ("You care." "As one human being to another. Just kidding").
> Given that he's been doing his own storyline for a scene or two each
> week and not interacting with his former allies, I meant to refer to
> Wesley as the Spike of ATS last week, but forgot.
Oh that's a very good parallel (and not just because they're my
favourite 'sidekicks' on either show), but because Wes/Lilah is in many
ways the Buffy/Spike of AtS. Although it casts Wes in the Buffy role:
He loves Fred who is good (like Buffy loves Angel), but knows that he
can't have her and in his misery goes to the one who'll have him ("He's
everything I hate..."):
Spike: I'm just sayin' ... vampires get you hot.
Buffy: *A* vampire got me hot. One. But he's gone. You're just...
You're just convenient.
Lilah chucking: "I'm starting to like you, Wes. Don't go making more of
this than it is. I'm not one of the doe-y eyed girls of Angel
Investigations. - Don't be thinking about me when I'm gone."
Wes: "I wasn't thinking about you when you were here."
I have *such* a thing for unhealthy relationships... and Wes/Lilah is a
prime example! Of course it's also very, very different from
Spike/Buffy - they're both human, and a one-night-stand is very likely
to be just that.
> "Tomorrow"
> drives home what the loss of his self-confidence has done to Wesley.
> He's totally defeated here, no faith in himself. The rejections
> he's experienced throughout his life are likely prominent in his
> mind, and unlike other times we've seen him like this, he doesn't
> have real friends who can pull him back. Buffyverse characters are
> sometimes accused of forgiving their friends too easily. Well,
> here's the other extreme - one of our heroes needs forgiveness and
> doesn't receive it: see what it turns him into.
I was always brave and kind of righteous
Now I find I'm wavering...
Being the Slayer was one of the things that kept Buffy going - will
Wesley find any sort of purpose again? Or will Lilah succeed in luring
that big brain of his over to the dark side?
> Not
> that I'm exactly an A/C "'shipper" either. Our two would-be
> romantic leads come off as passive rather than passionate, with
> outsiders rather than emotional depth driving them together and apart.
I like *the idea* of C/A... but at this point the tragedy is oddly
satisfying.
> Cordelia having a conversation with herself struck me as particularly
> dumb, but after seeing that the end of the story involves a
> supernatural transformation for her, it strikes me as dumb, still.
> [Addendum: Didn't notice this on my own, but now I am aware that
> everything coming from Window!Cordy is actually from her conversation
> with Skip.]
If you re-watch it, you'll see how carefully edited that vision is.
Them Powers are right bastards!
> Thoughts on Angel's predicament:
> Once he started telling Connor that he loved him, resigned to his
> unpleasant situation, I got my own sinking (ha) feeling that probably
> mirrors that of the original viewers - holy shit, those bastards are
> going to do a cliffhanger, aren't they? The writers are nasty
> people. As are Connor and Justine - the vengeance they have in mind
> got to me. I'm a little claustrophobic, so the idea of being
> immobilized like that and not able to die (well, slow starvation, I
> guess) is positively frightening, and it's grandiose enough to match
> the buildup. I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
> bear, especially given that I need a break from the reviewing, but the
> wait seems like a painful proposition. I'd say it's having the
> intended effect, yes?
Continuing with my thought from above about Angel reaping what he once
sowed - Holtz managed to out-Angelus Angel, and Connor seems to really,
truly be his father's son, considering his choice of punishment:
Angelus: "Shouldn't we be killing Holtz?"
Darla: "I know, but it's just so much fun ruining his life. He's like
family now."
'Offspring'
Darla: "So are we going to kill her [Dru] during, or after?"
Angelus: "Neither. We turn her into one of us. - Killing is so
merciful at the end, isn't it? The pain has ended."
Darla: "But to make her one of us? She's a lunatic."
Angelus: "Eternal torment. Am I learning?"
'Dear Boy'
> Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
> There's some good stuff here, like the ways it follows up on the
> season's longest running thread, and leaves me seriously wondering
> whether and in what capacity Cordelia will come back.
Not really any comments on that, except I loved that she once used her
new powers as a nightlight... the fact that she's become a higher
power... well that's kinda interesting, isn't it?
> The comparisons to _Buffy_ (and _Firefly_ too, but this is long enough
> already) are unavoidable here. BTVS is a show whose protagonist is
> just some 5'2 blonde, but who emerges as a bona fide hero. The main
> characters' lives often suck, and that's not because of a grand
> design, it's because they sometimes make bad choices and because life
> itself often sucks. Yet they find strength through their own will and
> through each other, and a major theme of the show is defying the fate
> set in stone by the (supernatural/adult) world and creating new options
> for oneself. ATS is a show about an ancient demon who can't always
> deal with change. The main characters' lives often suck because a
> higher power stops by and declares it to be so, and although they
> don't always follow the rules in their own world (see "Double Or
> Nothing"), they make the big sacrifices in blind acceptance of their
> fate when the PTB come calling. Which of these is a more satisfying
> and, dare I say, a more empowering worldview? I know where my
> sympathies lie.
AtS' message is not quite the same as Buffy's but I don't think that
it's any less valid. As it happens I just wrote about this a little
while ago, and can therefore just do a bit of cut'n'paste:
The thing is, that AtS isn't BtVS - and we have saw this first in
'Amends'. How many people hate the magic snow? And not just because it
is cheesy - but because it feels so *un*-Buffy. Stuff like that doesn't
happen on BtVS - people make choices and have to live with the
consequences. Their choice doesn't get snatched away by something else.
Or The Powers to be precise. But that is Angel's story - we see it
first in 'Becoming' when Whistler showed him Buffy, and this was
repeated in 'City Of' with Doyle. S1 is a bit meandering, but in 'To
shanshu in LA' the whole 'Angel is a player in the Apocalypse' gets
properly introduced and everything follows from there. Yes BtVS often
talks about 'destiny' but it is Buffy who makes herself unique amongst
slayers.
Angel is one-of-a-kind, _the_ vampire who has to fight in the
Apocalypse, _the_ vampire who is in all the prophecies. So to a certain
extent the message is very different from BtVS - Angel can't be someone
else, he can't escape his destiny. He could curse a hundered vampires
with a soul, but he'd still be Connor's father. It's a different sort
of message. To quote Joss himself, 'Buffy is about becoming, Angel is
about dealing with what you've become'. When we grow up, the
possibilites are endless, but one day we might wake up and realise that
we're stuck - our job is not exactly what we envisaged, but we need it
to pay the bills. Our partner and children might not be as we hoped,
but we're not likely to ever find that filmstar spouse we dreamed
about. We feel stuck. What can we do?
Partly you're just going to have to watch the show to find out,
although my friend Anna put it very well:
'And what I always loved best about the Buffyverse was that it wasn't
always about getting out of the hole. Sometimes you can't get out of
the hole, and you can't sit around waiting until you do. You have to
make a difference where you are, as you are. That's the point.'
> Thoughts on Season Three:
> Finally ATS comes into its own. Even with the forays into melodrama
> and the ill-advised diversions mid-season, _Angel_ had momentum this
> year and stuck with it. <snip> Not so much of that in the final third of this season
> - and this time it's really the final third that dominates my
> perceptions of S3, since the period from "Loyalty" on is easily the
> best continuous run in ATS's lifetime.
This echoes my own thoughts too. I think you'll enjoy the rest. Well I
hope so. :)
Finally I'm going to rec a fic (and trust me, you _have_ to read it -
it's not really a story, more of a reflection on S3. I'm very tempted
to tell you who the narrator is, but it's more fun if to try to work it
out yourself). And avoid the comments!
Title: The Third Wheel Monologue
Author: frimfram
Setting: Just offshore, immediately post AtS S3
Summary: Cordy's ascending to a higher plane, Angel's descending to the
ocean floor, and, if you've been dead for two years, there's not much
you can do about it but gab...
http://community.livejournal.com/moviequoteminis/7135.html#cutid1
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Thoughts on Angel's predicament:
> Once he started telling Connor that he loved him, resigned to his
> unpleasant situation, I got my own sinking (ha) feeling that probably
> mirrors that of the original viewers - holy shit, those bastards are
> going to do a cliffhanger, aren't they? The writers are nasty
> people. As are Connor and Justine - the vengeance they have in mind
> got to me. I'm a little claustrophobic, so the idea of being
> immobilized like that and not able to die (well, slow starvation, I
> guess) is positively frightening, and it's grandiose enough to match
> the buildup.
Forgot this!
There is this bit of dialogue from 'Benediction' that becomes *very*
significant in retrospect:
Connor: "What is it?"
Gunn: "The ocean. Pacific."
Connor: "Ocean. My father taught me about oceans. He never said it was
so..."
Fred: "Big?"
Connor: "Empty."
Fred: "It's not. It's just all under the surface. A whole 'nother world
actually."
Connor: "Everything's so different here."
Fred: "I know how you feel. I got lost once like you. - When I came
back nothing seemed real. Like I was seeing everything from the bottom
of the ocean."
Connor: "I don't remember being lost."
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164638938.7...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> (or "Angel sleeps with the fishes")
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
> A quick look at the text of the letter confirms that Connor's assumed
> name is spelled "Steven." Well, since he goes back to being Connor
> here, we don't have to think much about that.
>
> As far as the actual content of Holtz's letter, which we see again,
> knowing what we do now helps one appreciate how loaded all the language
> is. "My only prayer is that I have prepared you well enough for
> whatever lies ahead." It's got to seem like a direct command to
> him. From there the episode plays out as almost an impending tragedy.
> Connor appears to be embracing this family as never before, and there
> is a heartwarming vibe there that comes through very well. This time
> the audience knows for a fact that he's just waiting to strike, while
> everyone else is obliviously happy. He thinks of Angel as "The
> Prince Of Lies," but he's the one who, like his "father,"
> excels at manufacturing affection with nothing underneath. That
> doesn't quite carry things along for the full hour without starting
> to feel slow, but it comes close.
That's something Connor learned ... from his father.
The Scoobies are young and not old enough to become hard and judgemental in
their ways--altho Buffy and Giles were getting there. Then again Xander has
been pretty judgemental from the beginning.
You, like many of us, get tired of having a particular plot tease dangled in
front of you and pulled away. Long enough and we actually start to actively
hate said plot. "No, Charlie Brown, I won't pull away the football this
time, really."
Then again, the writers just chickened out. I'm sorry, but they did. Groo's
arrival and Cordy's obliviousness was about the worst character
assassination in the Buffyverse, surpassing Xander's "Hell's Belles" and
even Giles' backsliding in S7 of BUFFY.
> Thoughts on Angel's predicament:
> Once he started telling Connor that he loved him, resigned to his
> unpleasant situation, I got my own sinking (ha) feeling that probably
> mirrors that of the original viewers - holy shit, those bastards are
> going to do a cliffhanger, aren't they? The writers are nasty
> people. As are Connor and Justine - the vengeance they have in mind
> got to me. I'm a little claustrophobic, so the idea of being
> immobilized like that and not able to die (well, slow starvation, I
> guess) is positively frightening, and it's grandiose enough to match
> the buildup. I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
> bear, especially given that I need a break from the reviewing, but the
> wait seems like a painful proposition. I'd say it's having the
> intended effect, yes?
>
> Thoughts on the ending montage:
> An interesting choice to focus on Gunn and Fred as the ones left
> behind. They're the two members of the group who're part of the
> main cast but who don't go back with us to Sunnydale. And they're
> the closest to "normal" people we're going to get on this show.
> Not quite sure what the future could have in store for them. The final
> sequence as everyone drifts away in opposite directions is quite nice
> (good music throughout this week), helped me come to terms with the
> evil, evil cliffhanger, and produced a few other thoughts that'll
> require a separate post since I'm not defiling the review with them.
Arb, I've said it before and say it again,
WRITERS ARE EVIL.
The best writers are the worst.
Ah, but the Avengers don't have blind faith in TPTB. They often question it
and make their own way. Angel as early as S1's first ep with Gunn, commented
that nothing they do matter and thus everything they do matter. Not because
of TPTB or some major reward or shanshu, but because of choice.
They choose to do "good"--for its own sake.
> Thoughts on Season Three:
> Finally ATS comes into its own. Even with the forays into melodrama
> and the ill-advised diversions mid-season, _Angel_ had momentum this
> year and stuck with it. S3 started a bit slow, but episodes like
> "Billy" and "Lullaby" are a good demonstration of how to build
> to transitional episodes that can be the belated climax of old stories
> while starting new ones... a skill that they'd perfected by the time
> of "Forgiving." I was worried about post-Sahjhan letdown, but
> Connor's story snapped very effectively into place, while continuing
> the ATS tradition of being a very inward-looking show, about
> individuals and angst rather than apocalypse-plurals. It could be
> argued that the difference compared to S2 is that S3 used more
> series-specific players and fewer _Buffy_ holdovers, but that's more
> coincidence than anything else; the Darla arc last year was also
> something that felt like it could only be done on ATS. But although S2
> reached some high peaks, it was hampered at every turn by the show's
> frustratingly persistent inability to properly resolve the fascinating
> stories it set up; I remember S2 just as much for disappointments like
> "Redefinition" and its immediate follow-ups, "Epiphany," and of
> course Pylea. Not so much of that in the final third of this season
> - and this time it's really the final third that dominates my
> perceptions of S3, since the period from "Loyalty" on is easily the
> best continuous run in ATS's lifetime.
>
> All right, then. Have a good summer.
S3 was judged to be the best season of ANGEL by some magazine.
-- Ken from Chicago
Apteryx
news:1164638938.7...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> threads.
>
> Prince Of Lies," but he's the one who, like his "father,"
> excels at manufacturing affection with nothing underneath. That
> doesn't quite carry things along for the full hour without starting
> to feel slow, but it comes close.
I agree, his betrayal of Angel under Holz's influence is a good story, but
it is undermined by all the misleads about Connor's attitude in the previous
2 epsiodes which over-stretched my patience with the character and this
story.
> appreciate having these sequences because they helped me get a better
> handle on something that hadn't been quite clear. "Tomorrow"
> drives home what the loss of his self-confidence has done to Wesley.
> He's totally defeated here, no faith in himself. The rejections
> he's experienced throughout his life are likely prominent in his
> mind, and unlike other times we've seen him like this, he doesn't
> have real friends who can pull him back. Buffyverse characters are
> sometimes accused of forgiving their friends too easily. Well,
> here's the other extreme - one of our heroes needs forgiveness and
> doesn't receive it: see what it turns him into.
Yes, at this point Wesley is the main reason for me to keep watching AtS, to
see whether he can dig himself out of this pit, and what will be left of him
if he does manage it.
> Groosalugg also plays this role before disappearing into the night,
> apparently giving up the only job in the world (were they paying him?)
> which would let him put his sword-wielding barbarian skills to use.
> The opening actually does a lot to illustrate why I never bought the
> romance between Groo and Cordelia - I can't see her hanging around
> for that long with someone who doesn't appreciate her wordplay.
Well no, not in the real world. But at least it allowed Cordy to be funny
for a while, which is what she is good at. If all she's got left is this
manufactured romance with Angel, well maybe she should be shuffled off this
mortal coil.
>
> Thoughts on Angel's predicament:
> Once he started telling Connor that he loved him, resigned to his
> unpleasant situation, I got my own sinking (ha) feeling that probably
> mirrors that of the original viewers - holy shit, those bastards are
> going to do a cliffhanger, aren't they? The writers are nasty
> people. As are Connor and Justine - the vengeance they have in mind
> got to me. I'm a little claustrophobic, so the idea of being
> immobilized like that and not able to die (well, slow starvation, I
> guess) is positively frightening,
It's a good one. And I think its been established that vampires don't
actually die as a result of starvation.
> and it's grandiose enough to match
> the buildup. I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
> bear
Always a good plan :)
> Thoughts on the ending montage:
> An interesting choice to focus on Gunn and Fred as the ones left
> behind. They're the two members of the group who're part of the
> main cast but who don't go back with us to Sunnydale. And they're
> the closest to "normal" people we're going to get on this show.
Fred, normal? You take that back!!! But yeah, it does seem significant to
leave them behind. Not that Lorne or Groo go back to Sunnydale either.
> Not quite sure what the future could have in store for them. The final
> sequence as everyone drifts away in opposite directions is quite nice
Cordelia's ascension is as dippy as dippy gets, but at least it does work
visually when set against Angel's descension.
> Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
> There's some good stuff here,
[there is, where?]
>like the ways it follows up on the
> season's longest running thread, and leaves me seriously wondering
> whether and in what capacity Cordelia will come back.
[ah, because it holds out hope for your long cherished desire to get rid of
Cordy :) ]
> If one accepts
> the way ATS operates, it works quite well. I think it also highlights
> a weakness of ATS, though; this has more to do with the series than
> with "Tomorrow" in particular. It's the whole Powers That Be
> factor. They're an outside force who treat humanoids as "lesser
> beings" and call the shots for them. Submission to their will is
> treated as a virtue, coming across as the noble thing to do.
> (Digression: Yes, there's a trace of ambiguity here that I'm not
> ignoring - are the PTB really all about Good? For instance, here
> they conveniently call on Cordy just in time to keep her from being
> there with Angel and Connor. All fine and dandy, but if the show never
> has anyone ask those questions out loud while continuing to glorify
> submission, it's not such a factor.)
I don't think the show ever showed such submission before. Where characters
have done the PTB's bidding in the past, it seemed to me it was because they
could see the good that would come from it, not just that they kowtowed to
the PTB.
> Thoughts on Season Three:
> Finally ATS comes into its own. Even with the forays into melodrama
> and the ill-advised diversions mid-season, _Angel_ had momentum this
> year and stuck with it. S3 started a bit slow, but episodes like
> "Billy" and "Lullaby" are a good demonstration of how to build
> to transitional episodes that can be the belated climax of old stories
> while starting new ones... a skill that they'd perfected by the time
> of "Forgiving." I was worried about post-Sahjhan letdown, but
> Connor's story snapped very effectively into place, while continuing
> the ATS tradition of being a very inward-looking show, about
> individuals and angst rather than apocalypse-plurals. It could be
> argued that the difference compared to S2 is that S3 used more
> series-specific players and fewer _Buffy_ holdovers, but that's more
> coincidence than anything else; the Darla arc last year was also
> something that felt like it could only be done on ATS. But although S2
> reached some high peaks, it was hampered at every turn by the show's
> frustratingly persistent inability to properly resolve the fascinating
> stories it set up; I remember S2 just as much for disappointments like
> "Redefinition" and its immediate follow-ups, "Epiphany," and of
> course Pylea. Not so much of that in the final third of this season
> - and this time it's really the final third that dominates my
> perceptions of S3, since the period from "Loyalty" on is easily the
> best continuous run in ATS's lifetime.
To me, AtS 3 has some good stories (or at least story outlines), especially
the Wesley arc, the Darla arc, and the Holtz arc. But it lets itself down by
faulty implementation (especially by turning Wesley into a temporary idiot
to facilitate his descent) and by the mixing in less successful stories -
Cordy!
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Only Decent for me. It's my 82nd favourite AtS episode, 14th best in season
3
--
Apteryx
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> (or "Angel sleeps with the fishes")
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: David Greenwalt
.
Is there really a Point Dume? If not, it's a real groaner of a name.
Actually, even if it is real, choosing it was still groan-worthy.
Note Justine's reaction at Connor's memories of Holtz talking about Utah.
She's still willingly following Holtz's plan, but she's quietly pained to
learn that she never figured in Holtz's stories about what might have
been. Maybe she was learning that her love wasn't returned, or maybe
learning that her guru didn't care about her except as a tool in his
revenge, but either way (or both ways) that had to hurt. What will
Justine do once the Angelus quest is apparently finished?
> Lilah Morgan, on the other hand, has a somewhat more prominent part
> ("You care." "As one human being to another. Just kidding").
I like Lilah's curiosity about what it feels like to have your throat slit
(which I took to be genuine, not just more manipulation), and her line in
the bedroom: "Watch the dirty looks, that's what got me going in the first
place." It's not surprising that Lilah mixes sex, danger and business.
And now, after a false start in Carpe Noctem, Lilah is really sleeping
with the enemy ... if Wesley still is her enemy, that is. The season ends
before we can see where exactly Wesley is headed.
> Groosalugg also plays this role before disappearing into the night,
> apparently giving up the only job in the world (were they paying him?)
> which would let him put his sword-wielding barbarian skills to use.
Assuming he doesn't head back to Pylea, Groo could find work acting at a
Ren Faire. Now, looking back, we can see Groo's true role in season 3: to
allow Cordy to (very slowly) realize that she really loves Angel. He was
never important for himself. Though I must say I sympathized with the
character more and more as the season progressed and he got his heart
stamped on over and over again. Good thing he had a nice soothing cup of
mock Mock-na at hand in the teaser. I liked the way Lorne's and Groo's
exposition bunny bits were cut together: doing them as two separate
conversations would have been much, much worse.
I'm ambivalent about the Cordy-Angel romance itself. I can see them
growing to love each other during their many near-fatal adventures
together, especially since neither one has much chance for a relationship
with someone else. You could view a lot of their more intimate scenes
early this season leading up to it -- the waffle breakfast at the end of
TVT, for instance. But while that kind of love could become intense, it
doesn't really fit very well with the sort of sudden dramatic epiphany
Cordy has in this episode. Angel's side works better, since it's been a
more gradual process. Anyway, it makes sense that they played it as an
intense, Heartthrobby romance, since this allows for a single big moment
of resolution for them to tantalize us with and then snatch away at the
last minute by tearing the two characters apart. Ah, Mutant Enemy.
Which reminds me, Lorne's line "Sometimes things *do* work out" is sadly
ironic. Did he forget whose universe he's living in?
Holtz earns distinction for concocting one of the most elaborate plots in
the Whedonverse to actually succeed, and for suffering perhaps the fewest
unanticipated losses while doing so.
> I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
> bear,
But what am I supposed to do at work?! Er, I mean during my lunch break.
> An interesting choice to focus on Gunn and Fred as the ones left
> behind. They're the two members of the group who're part of the
> main cast but who don't go back with us to Sunnydale. And they're
> the closest to "normal" people we're going to get on this show.
They're also the two who have never been in a leadership role at AI
(though Gunn had led his own gang in the past).
> Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
"It's ridiculous. I'm just a somewhat normal girl ... who has visions,
glows, and occasionally blows things up with her crazy new power.... I'm
a higher being." Ironic how she reverses her BTVS season 1 attitude: back
then she thought she was better than everyone else, now she clings to the
idea of being a normal girl. One note: The PTBs have, according to Skip,
decided Cordy is ready for a higher level, but they don't give her any
indication of what that level is like or what she'll be doing there.
> The comparisons to _Buffy_ (and _Firefly_ too, but this is long enough
> already) are unavoidable here. BTVS is a show whose protagonist is
> just some 5'2 blonde, but who emerges as a bona fide hero. The main
> characters' lives often suck, and that's not because of a grand
> design, it's because they sometimes make bad choices and because life
> itself often sucks. Yet they find strength through their own will and
> through each other, and a major theme of the show is defying the fate
> set in stone by the (supernatural/adult) world and creating new options
> for oneself. ATS is a show about an ancient demon who can't always
> deal with change. The main characters' lives often suck because a
> higher power stops by and declares it to be so, and although they
> don't always follow the rules in their own world (see "Double Or
> Nothing"), they make the big sacrifices in blind acceptance of their
> fate when the PTB come calling. Which of these is a more satisfying
> and, dare I say, a more empowering worldview? I know where my
> sympathies lie.
I *mostly* agree with you here, but the AtS worldview has one advantage
over BtVS in my opinion: it's a more tragic worldview. By more tragic I
don't mean more sad stuff happens. I mean AtS is more prone to show us
that some things are beyond the characters' control, that sometimes
everything *isn't* possible, no matter how determined or dedicated they
are. This is less encouraging than the BtVS worldview, but it feels truer
to me. (It would not feel true if *everything* were beyond the
characters' control and nothing they did mattered, but AtS doesn't go that
far.) And it avoids any danger of making us feel like someone is *trying*
to uplift us, which can be a turnoff.
On the whole, I'd say Benediction was slightly better than Tomorrow, but
Tomorrow is still pretty damn great. And the ANW-Benediction-Tomorrow run
is one of my favorite parts of the whole series.
> AOQ rating: Good
It's angsterrific! Excellent.
> Thoughts on Season Three:
I love Season Three. Angst, tragedy, betrayal, ambiguous victories,
sticky moral compromises ... it has loads of everything I most love to
watch. Every season except the first has been my favorite at some point,
but Three has held that title most frequently. However, I was actually
slightly dissatisfied when re-watching the season for these threads. I
love the pregnant Darla arc, the Holtz/kidnapping arc, and the return of
Connor & Holtz arc, and I'm really fond of Carpe Noctem; but those parts
didn't make up as much of the season as I had remembered. Despite that
disappointment, right now I'd still call S3 my favorite, but maybe that
will change after rewatching 4 and 5.
And a recap of my ratings --
> [Season Three ratings:
> 1) "Heartthrob" - Decent
Borderline Decent/Good.
> 2) "That Vision-Thing" - Good
Good.
> 3) "That Old Gang Of Mine" - Decent
Decent.
> 4) "Carpe Noctem" - Decent
Good.
> 5) "Fredless" - Good
Good.
> 6) "Billy" - Good
Good.
> 7) "Offspring" - Decent
A high Decent.
> 8) "Quickening" - Good
Good, and not a low one.
> 9) "Lullaby" - Good
Excellent.
> 10) "Dad" - Decent
Decent.
> 11) "Birthday" - Good
Good.
> 12) "Provider" - Weak
Decent.
> 13) "Waiting In The Wings" - Decent
A definite Good.
> 14) "Couplet" - Decent
A high Decent, maybe a low Good.
> 15) "Loyalty" - Excellent
Excellent.
> 16) "Sleep Tight" - Good
Excellent.
> 17) "Forgiving" - Excellent
Excellent.
> 18) "Double Or Nothing" - Decent
Decent.
> 19) "The Price" - Good
Good.
> 20) "A New World" - Good
Good.
> 21) "Benediction" - Excellent
Excellent.
> 22) "Tomorrow" - Good]
Excellent.
My ratings are even closer to AOQ's than usual. I hope this just means
that we've reached episodes that genuinely strike us the same way, and not
that I've fallen under the sway of his forceful personality.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Apteryx
news:1164638938.7...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
>
> _Angel_ Season Three
>
> Bad - 0
> Weak - 1
> Decent - 8
> Good - 10
> Excellent - 3
I get
Bad - 0
Weak - 3
Decent - 16
Good - 3
Excellent - 0
All in all, a thoroughly Decent season :)
> Average rating: 3.68 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
> Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 59%
I get 5.06 ("Decent" - my Decent range is 4.51 - 5.50)
Quality %: 14%
> Ratings by season:
> S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
My S1 Mean = 4.89, 32% quality
> S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
My Mean = 4.31, 64% quality
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> > ANGEL
> > Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> > (or "Angel sleeps with the fishes")
> > Writer: David Greenwalt
> > Director: David Greenwalt
>
> .
> Is there really a Point Dume? If not, it's a real groaner of a name.
> Actually, even if it is real, choosing it was still groan-worthy.
Yes, there really is a Point Dume.
http://www.beachcalifornia.com/point-dume-beach-malibu.html
Dwayne Johnson
night, apparently giving up the only job in the world (were they paying
him?) which would let him put his sword-wielding barbarian skills to
use.
i don't think he will have any trouble finding a demon or two(100's) to
fight..Angel has the job because.. A, it's he knows how to do that sort
of work. and B, he does that sort of work.. give groo time to build word
of mouth and he could be as big as angel.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> --Even more frightening than you think, because for vampires there is
> no such thing as death by starvation. They just get weaker and weaker,
> and more and more miserable, but their suffering continues ad infinitum
> unless somebody comes along and stakes them or cuts off their heads.
> (Remember what Spike told Giles in the BtVS episode "Pangs"? Living
> skeletons, mate!)
Okay, didn't remember the exact nature of Spike's description.
> --Good to hear that, but do tell what you anticipate and speculate as
> to the beginning of season 4. For me, anticipation and speculation are
> a big part of the experience of viewing any serialized drama (or, to a
> lesser extent, even a single-sitting standalone drama: when you go to
> a live stage play that's new to you, during intermission aren't you
> always thinking and talking about how the plot will turn out?).
I try not to spend too much time on predictions, partly because they're
often wrong and partly because I'm generally open to see what happens.
But since the request was made, a few quick thoughts:
Given that it's his show, Angel will eventually become part of things
again, possibly growing "darker" in proportion to the amount of time he
spends undersea. Connor will have to learn the truth at some point,
and that's oen of those things where (probably like Angel would), I'd
like to imagine that it would help him reevaluate his life, but am
aware that he could react totally differently (or not at all) to the
news too. Cordelia's story might be most satisfying if it ended here,
but I'm pretty sure she'll be back too, so the first order of business
will be to get her back to earth within the first episode or two. She
and Angel probably won't get together, given that if it was going to
happen, it'd have happened by now. As a writer I wouldn't know how to
handle her as a "higher being" or whatever, or really what to do with
her at all. Wesley's path appears to be charted out for now; he's dead
enough inside that I could see him working for W&H now, but probably
with his own more ambiguous agenda. I don't think he'll be inactive
for much longer, though; Lilah's right that being passive has to be
eating at him. He might come back into the fold at the end, but I'd
most likely be disappointed if it happened too quickly. And I'm
curious where exactly this story interlocks with _Buffy_'s...
Well, that's a good explanation for a major part of where our tastes
differ. Fantasy is all about the human emotions for me (despite your
snipped statement, I'm also very much a character person the way you
are. Plots per se are less important than interesting people).
Although it was hit and miss quite often, I look back fondly on S1 of
BTVS because of the core four and how real they came across at their
best. I consider "Prophecy Girl" a top-five episode of the entire
series, and wonder whether those who don't feel it are really human
[the preceding thought is hyperbole]; no twisty plots, no ovedoing it
with the double meanings, just scene after scene of rawness. Angel and
the other major vampires and ancient creatures on the show became
interesting to me in spite of the mythology, not because of it. Which
is not to say that I don't think vampires are fundamentally kinda cool,
because they are, but a cool concept will only get you so far as a
storyteller.
> --Do you expect Sahjahn will ever get out of that urn, or will the
> writers just forget about him in future?
Hmm. I'd love to see him again, and am guessing that he'll appear at
least once more, but I don't really see the point unless they're going
to do something less obvious than, well, having Connor kill him. His
story's basically satisfyingly over at this point as far as we're
concerned. (Already mentioned this, but I'd be amused if Connor just
started smashing random stuff in a fit of rage, and that finished the
job. Or have him trip over the urrn, or get thrown into it, or
whatever.)
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Elisi wrote:
>
> Continuing with my thought from above about Angel reaping what he once
> sowed - Holtz managed to out-Angelus Angel, and Connor seems to really,
> truly be his father's son, considering his choice of punishment:
>
> Angelus: "Shouldn't we be killing Holtz?"
> Darla: "I know, but it's just so much fun ruining his life. He's like
> family now."
> 'Offspring'
>
> Darla: "So are we going to kill her [Dru] during, or after?"
> Angelus: "Neither. We turn her into one of us. - Killing is so
> merciful at the end, isn't it? The pain has ended."
> Darla: "But to make her one of us? She's a lunatic."
> Angelus: "Eternal torment. Am I learning?"
> 'Dear Boy'
I like that.
> > Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
> > There's some good stuff here, like the ways it follows up on the
> > season's longest running thread, and leaves me seriously wondering
> > whether and in what capacity Cordelia will come back.
>
> Not really any comments on that, except I loved that she once used her
> new powers as a nightlight... the fact that she's become a higher
> power... well that's kinda interesting, isn't it?
Maybe, but higher powers aren't as interesting as people. I've always
been for toning down some of the less savory aspects of her
personality, but part of the interest comes from keeping her uniquely
Cordelia, seeing how the person we know will react to the latest
wrinkle.
> AtS' message is not quite the same as Buffy's but I don't think that
> it's any less valid. As it happens I just wrote about this a little
> while ago, and can therefore just do a bit of cut'n'paste:
>
> To quote Joss himself, 'Buffy is about becoming, Angel is
> about dealing with what you've become'. When we grow up, the
> possibilites are endless, but one day we might wake up and realise that
> we're stuck - our job is not exactly what we envisaged, but we need it
> to pay the bills. Our partner and children might not be as we hoped,
> but we're not likely to ever find that filmstar spouse we dreamed
> about. We feel stuck. What can we do?
>
> Partly you're just going to have to watch the show to find out,
> although my friend Anna put it very well:
>
> 'And what I always loved best about the Buffyverse was that it wasn't
> always about getting out of the hole. Sometimes you can't get out of
> the hole, and you can't sit around waiting until you do. You have to
> make a difference where you are, as you are. That's the point.'
Yeah, but I think BTVS has done that better than _Angel_. Latter-day
_Buffy_ is also about dealing with what you've become, although never
totally ceasing to change. Circumstance is often against the
characters, and the longer that show runs, the more they're weighed
down by their own past choices. But the dealing with things, within
the hole, was something they did, without being patronized by the
higher beings (well, there was a certain individual toard the end who
thankfully done got their neck snapped, of course...).
>
> Finally I'm going to rec a fic (and trust me, you _have_ to read it -
> it's not really a story, more of a reflection on S3. I'm very tempted
> to tell you who the narrator is, but it's more fun if to try to work it
> out yourself).
Well, this part made it a bit obvious...
> if you've been dead for two years, there's not much
> you can do about it but gab...
Enjoyed it; it's been long enough since I've seen the appropriate
episodes that I can't say whether or not the author got the speech
patterns quite right, but I'm a fan of most of the sentiments.
-AOQ
~who knew handiness wiht a loofah would be such a valuable skill?~
Arbitrar Of Quality
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164638938.7...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I came into S3 fairly open to the possibility of this pairing, and now
> > have no interest in anything other than not having my time wasted with
> > it. In this particular episode, it's only here to do a "what
> > might've been" thing, really.
>
> You, like many of us, get tired of having a particular plot tease dangled in
> front of you and pulled away. Long enough and we actually start to actively
> hate said plot. "No, Charlie Brown, I won't pull away the football this
> time, really."
True. Although I've noticed that some repetitions (like the misdirects
with Holtz, inhertied by Connor, for instance) are more tolerable than
others. The fact that some stories are better than others may have
something to do with this.
> Then again, the writers just chickened out. I'm sorry, but they did. Groo's
> arrival and Cordy's obliviousness was about the worst character
> assassination in the Buffyverse, surpassing Xander's "Hell's Belles" and
> even Giles' backsliding in S7 of BUFFY.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but I certainly won't defend whoever that
character was who looked like Cordelia that was so prominent around the
time of "Couplet."
> S3 was judged to be the best season of ANGEL by some magazine.
I know the Onion's AV Club thinks so, since I linked that article
myself.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Assuming he doesn't head back to Pylea, Groo could find work acting at a
> Ren Faire. Now, looking back, we can see Groo's true role in season 3: to
> allow Cordy to (very slowly) realize that she really loves Angel. He was
> never important for himself.
Doesn't work for me because I don't think the progression came off well
at all. I've always had a hard time reconciling the Cordelia who's
swooning over how brave and honest Groosalugg is with.. well, anything,
really.
> I liked the way Lorne's and Groo's
> exposition bunny bits were cut together: doing them as two separate
> conversations would have been much, much worse.
Twice nothing is still nothing.
> I'm ambivalent about the Cordy-Angel romance itself. I can see them
> growing to love each other during their many near-fatal adventures
> together, especially since neither one has much chance for a relationship
> with someone else. You could view a lot of their more intimate scenes
> early this season leading up to it -- the waffle breakfast at the end of
> TVT, for instance. But while that kind of love could become intense, it
> doesn't really fit very well with the sort of sudden dramatic epiphany
> Cordy has in this episode. Angel's side works better, since it's been a
> more gradual process.
Agreed. We were on the path to a gradual intimacy that might have
become a relationship or not, and then Cordelia's side of the story
makes this ninety-degree turn. I appreicate that the ME writers hate
doing the obvious, but the detour shouldn't be its own "reward."
> > I'm going to hold off on Season Four as long as I can
> > bear,
>
> But what am I supposed to do at work?! Er, I mean during my lunch break.
Eat? I always miss having the group to reload too.
> "It's ridiculous. I'm just a somewhat normal girl ... who has visions,
> glows, and occasionally blows things up with her crazy new power.... I'm
> a higher being." Ironic how she reverses her BTVS season 1 attitude: back
> then she thought she was better than everyone else, now she clings to the
> idea of being a normal girl.
Hmm. I think the change came after first moving to the much bigger
pond of L.A., getting to know that world, and then falling in with
Angel. In "City Of" she became the "normal" one who was supposed to
keep everyone else grounded and in touch with the world. But the life
changes you.
> I *mostly* agree with you here, but the AtS worldview has one advantage
> over BtVS in my opinion: it's a more tragic worldview. By more tragic I
> don't mean more sad stuff happens. I mean AtS is more prone to show us
> that some things are beyond the characters' control, that sometimes
> everything *isn't* possible, no matter how determined or dedicated they
> are. This is less encouraging than the BtVS worldview, but it feels truer
> to me. (It would not feel true if *everything* were beyond the
> characters' control and nothing they did mattered, but AtS doesn't go that
> far.) And it avoids any danger of making us feel like someone is *trying*
> to uplift us, which can be a turnoff.
Understood, but I think there's enough of that in BTVS to keep it a
satisfying picture.
> However, I was actually
> slightly dissatisfied when re-watching the season for these threads. I
> love the pregnant Darla arc, the Holtz/kidnapping arc, and the return of
> Connor & Holtz arc, and I'm really fond of Carpe Noctem; but those parts
> didn't make up as much of the season as I had remembered.
I don't know exactly why, but ATS almost always takes a few episodes
before it gets going, and has at least one mid-season slump each year.
Starting off the year more episodic - it's basically one-offs and the
Billy two-off - and then starting the big stories around episode 7
isn't itself so unusual, but I think ATS is striking in how much better
it is at the sweeping serialized stuff than the smaller stories.
> My ratings are even closer to AOQ's than usual. I hope this just means
> that we've reached episodes that genuinely strike us the same way, and not
> that I've fallen under the sway of his forceful personality.
I'm amused by that comment, but have no snappy rejoinder at the moment.
-AOQ
Don Sample
aba...@webtv.net (Dwayne Johnson) wrote:
He also isn't limited to just this world. He could go back to Pylea,
and take up a Barbarian Swordsman job there, again.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> and take up a Barbarian Swordsman job there, again.
have sword
will travel
William George Ferguson
tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> He also isn't limited to just this world. He could go back to Pylea,
>> and take up a Barbarian Swordsman job there, again.
>
>have sword
>will travel
Have sword, will travel reads the card on the wall
A big monster slayer heading for a fall
His sword will kill monster, dino, or bug
A bad Mamma Jamma is the one called
Groo sa lug
Grusalug, Grusalug, what will you chance
In this weird world where there's song, not dance
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
George W Harris
Depth Charges (looked to be at least double strength),
the jukebox is playing "The Band Played 'Waltzing
Mathilda'" by The Pogues, which is the saddest song
ever recorded.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Arbitrar Of Quality
George W Harris wrote:
> Note: when Wes is drowning his sorrows in
> Depth Charges (looked to be at least double strength),
> the jukebox is playing "The Band Played 'Waltzing
> Mathilda'" by The Pogues, which is the saddest song
> ever recorded.
Where I come from, a Dpeth Charge is a coffee drink.
-AOQ
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:
You must be from Seattle. Technically, for a
Depth Charge you drop the bourbon, shot glass and
all, into the mug of beer. You can also use rye, vodka
or tequila.
:
:-AOQ
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
Rob
"George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote in message
news:5eepm2hurguq4a315...@4ax.com...
> Note: when Wes is drowning his sorrows in
> Depth Charges (looked to be at least double strength),
> the jukebox is playing "The Band Played 'Waltzing
> Mathilda'" by The Pogues, which is the saddest song
> ever recorded.
Oddly enough the Pogues are also in the background in season seven of
Buffy (I think it was Sleeper actually) with 'London Lullabye'.
Arbitrar Of Quality
George W Harris wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2006 16:47:41 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :George W Harris wrote:
> :> Note: when Wes is drowning his sorrows in
> :> Depth Charges (looked to be at least double strength),
> :> the jukebox is playing "The Band Played 'Waltzing
> :> Mathilda'" by The Pogues, which is the saddest song
> :> ever recorded.
> :
> :Where I come from, a Dpeth Charge is a coffee drink.
>
> You must be from Seattle.
Yes, actually. Although here in Chi-City I've seen it that way too;
the exact definition of what a Depth Charge is tends to vary from cafe
to cafe, but some use it as a name for what most people call a Red Eye
(which is not as hardcore a drink as Xander would have you believe. Of
course, coming from someone who pronounces it "expresso...").
> Technically, for a
> Depth Charge you drop the bourbon, shot glass and
> all, into the mug of beer. You can also use rye, vodka
> or tequila.
And my people call that kind of drink a "Bomb" in the generic sense. A
DC sounds much better than Bombs made from that hideous Red Bull stuff,
and probably better than the ones with really cheap sake too.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:l9uom21talnhgb2aj...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:36:46 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
> tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> He also isn't limited to just this world. He could go back to Pylea,
> >> and take up a Barbarian Swordsman job there, again.
> >
> >have sword
> >will travel
>
> Have sword, will travel reads the card on the wall
> A big monster slayer heading for a fall
> His sword will kill monster, dino, or bug
> A bad Mamma Jamma is the one called
> Groo sa lug
>
> Grusalug, Grusalug, what will you chance
> In this weird world where there's song, not dance
>
One For Groo
============
"Now you’re here; I can see your light,
This light that I must follow,
You, you may take my life away
-- so far away.
Now I know; I must leave your spell
I want tomorrow."[1]
For the memory of my Princess
I will chance my fortitude
In the spirit of Pomegranate
I will chance my good fortunes
In search of Boadicea, my true Queen[2]
I'm sailing away[3].
[1]From the song "I Want Tomorrow" by Enya, as the Groosalug
tries to "sing" the words (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Z6HlD3-SU)
but could only mutter.
[2]http://travesti.geophys.mcgill.ca/~olivia/BOUDICA/boadicea.jpg
[3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyR1c7CWCQw
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> In search of Boadicea, my true Queen[2]
> I'm sailing away[3].
>
>
I like Chris Achilleos' work, but ain't no way the historical Boudicca
would have had armor like that (guess that's why they call it *fantasy*
art...)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > Thoughts on Cordelia's transformation:
> > > There's some good stuff here, like the ways it follows up on the
> > > season's longest running thread, and leaves me seriously wondering
> > > whether and in what capacity Cordelia will come back.
> >
> > Not really any comments on that, except I loved that she once used her
> > new powers as a nightlight... the fact that she's become a higher
> > power... well that's kinda interesting, isn't it?
>
> Maybe, but higher powers aren't as interesting as people. I've always
> been for toning down some of the less savory aspects of her
> personality, but part of the interest comes from keeping her uniquely
> Cordelia, seeing how the person we know will react to the latest
> wrinkle.
Oh I didn't mean 'interesting' in that sense! Cordy has had the visions
for abour 2 years, and her new powers for a couple of months... seems
awfully quick for her to get 'upgraded', don't you think?
> > AtS' message is not quite the same as Buffy's but I don't think that
> > it's any less valid. As it happens I just wrote about this a little
> > while ago, and can therefore just do a bit of cut'n'paste:
> >
> > To quote Joss himself, 'Buffy is about becoming, Angel is
> > about dealing with what you've become'. When we grow up, the
> > possibilites are endless, but one day we might wake up and realise that
> > we're stuck - our job is not exactly what we envisaged, but we need it
> > to pay the bills. Our partner and children might not be as we hoped,
> > but we're not likely to ever find that filmstar spouse we dreamed
> > about. We feel stuck. What can we do?
> >
> > Partly you're just going to have to watch the show to find out,
> > although my friend Anna put it very well:
> >
> > 'And what I always loved best about the Buffyverse was that it wasn't
> > always about getting out of the hole. Sometimes you can't get out of
> > the hole, and you can't sit around waiting until you do. You have to
> > make a difference where you are, as you are. That's the point.'
>
> Yeah, but I think BTVS has done that better than _Angel_. Latter-day
> _Buffy_ is also about dealing with what you've become, although never
> totally ceasing to change. Circumstance is often against the
> characters, and the longer that show runs, the more they're weighed
> down by their own past choices.
Which is one of the reasons I like the latter seasons better - or maybe
it's the fact that you can see the characters evolve and change. As I
said, Spike and Wes are two of my favourite characters because they
grow and change so much.
> But the dealing with things, within
> the hole, was something they did, without being patronized by the
> higher beings (well, there was a certain individual toard the end who
> thankfully done got their neck snapped, of course...).
The story AtS mostly reminds me of (although the differences are many)
is LoTR. The sense of there being a big war, of being caught up in
events bigger than themselves - and yet that the choice of one
individual can make the greatest difference, it's the same sort of
thing (to me).
> > Finally I'm going to rec a fic (and trust me, you _have_ to read it -
> > it's not really a story, more of a reflection on S3. I'm very tempted
> > to tell you who the narrator is, but it's more fun if to try to work it
> > out yourself).
>
> Well, this part made it a bit obvious...
>
> > if you've been dead for two years, there's not much
> > you can do about it but gab...
>
> Enjoyed it; it's been long enough since I've seen the appropriate
> episodes that I can't say whether or not the author got the speech
> patterns quite right, but I'm a fan of most of the sentiments.
To me, it wins straight off when talking about 'Vision Barbie and
Fangface Ken' - which reminds me of one (very shallow) reason that I
like Cordy/Angel: They match very well - like Buffy and Spike being
small and blonde, so Angel and Cordy are both tall and dark (when
Cordy's hair is the right colour of course) and just seem to fit
extremely well physically. This stuff matters! :)
BTR1701
> In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> > ANGEL
> > Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> > (or "Angel sleeps with the fishes")
> > Writer: David Greenwalt
> > Director: David Greenwalt
>
> .
> Is there really a Point Dume?
Yep, it's north of Malibu. I've been there. Beautiful view.
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but I think BTVS has done that better than _Angel_. Latter-day
> > _Buffy_ is also about dealing with what you've become, although never
> > totally ceasing to change. Circumstance is often against the
> > characters, and the longer that show runs, the more they're weighed
> > down by their own past choices.
>
> Which is one of the reasons I like the latter seasons better - or maybe
> it's the fact that you can see the characters evolve and change.
The trouble is that they evolve and change into a bunch of idiots.
Elisi
They're flawed. It's what makes them human and interesting. If they
always did the right thing I'd have been bored to tears.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-D67ACA...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <1164802277.4...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, but I think BTVS has done that better than _Angel_. Latter-day
> > > _Buffy_ is also about dealing with what you've become, although never
> > > totally ceasing to change. Circumstance is often against the
> > > characters, and the longer that show runs, the more they're weighed
> > > down by their own past choices.
> >
> > Which is one of the reasons I like the latter seasons better - or maybe
> > it's the fact that you can see the characters evolve and change.
>
> The trouble is that they evolve and change into a bunch of idiots.
>
cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
Are you trying to post this basic thought over and over until you get
responses? Well, guess it worked.
First, I've been lead to believe that _Firefly_ was a more of a
Joss-drain during S6 when he was putting it together than during S7;
the show had already been cancelled once it came time to wrap things
up. Also, shouldn't we also blame David Greenwalt for leaving _Angel_
when discussing sources of distraction?
More importantly, even if BTVS and ATS had never produced a single
watchable minute again, FF would've been worth it. I'm just saying.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164846862....@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> > news:dsample-D67ACA...@news.giganews.com...
> > > In article <1164802277.4...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yeah, but I think BTVS has done that better than _Angel_.
Latter-day
> > > > > _Buffy_ is also about dealing with what you've become, although
never
> > > > > totally ceasing to change. Circumstance is often against the
> > > > > characters, and the longer that show runs, the more they're
weighed
> > > > > down by their own past choices.
> > > >
> > > > Which is one of the reasons I like the latter seasons better - or
maybe
> > > > it's the fact that you can see the characters evolve and change.
> > >
> > > The trouble is that they evolve and change into a bunch of idiots.
> > >
> > ... but mostly in Season 7 when the writing became "hole-ier" than swiss
> > cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
>
> Are you trying to post this basic thought over and over until you get
> responses? Well, guess it worked.
>
>
here was the most articulate even though I do not agree with your last point
you made below.
> First, I've been lead to believe that _Firefly_ was a more of a
> Joss-drain during S6 when he was putting it together than during S7;
> the show had already been cancelled once it came time to wrap things
> up. Also, shouldn't we also blame David Greenwalt for leaving _Angel_
> when discussing sources of distraction?
>
Some people have said that and Joss might even have led people to believe
that. But no matter, the record speaks for itself. I have yet to see a
person who would rank Season 7 the best, whereas there are countless people
who rank Season 6 the best. Many people, myself included, rank Season 7 the
worst. For me, I would not want to change a darn thing in the first six
seasons. But Season 7, there are so many things that are not right that I
don't know where to begin (actually I do, but that should be for another
thread). without Selfless, CWDP, Storyteller, and LMPTM, Season 7 would be
an abomination (by BtVS standards).
> More importantly, even if BTVS and ATS had never produced a single
> watchable minute again, FF would've been worth it. I'm just saying.
>
The last point is where we disagree on. I'd rather have a Season 7 with
neither gaping holes nor countless execution errors than a lightning bug.
From my perspective, to see a complete and wholesome Season 7 that is
commensurate with the quality of the first six seasons would be far more
desirable and rewarding than to see Joss' childhood fantasies of playing
cowboys and indians in space realized, no matter how good lightning bug is.
Joss's desire to try his hands in every movie genre that impressed him when
he was a kid ultimately ruined Season 7 for me. I'm just saying :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Elisi
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > First, I've been lead to believe that _Firefly_ was a more of a
> > Joss-drain during S6 when he was putting it together than during S7;
> > the show had already been cancelled once it came time to wrap things
> > up. Also, shouldn't we also blame David Greenwalt for leaving _Angel_
> > when discussing sources of distraction?
> >
> Some people have said that and Joss might even have led people to believe
> that. But no matter, the record speaks for itself. I have yet to see a
> person who would rank Season 7 the best, whereas there are countless people
> who rank Season 6 the best.
::raises hand::
Actually seasons 6 and 7 go together - they don't work seperately. A
season of hurt, followed by a season of healing - without S7 I would
not love season 6 as much as I do. It's like S3 of AtS - it is utterly
brilliant in places, but knowing that it's only part of the story is
what makes me love it. Without seasons 4 and 5, it wouldn't work.
> Many people, myself included, rank Season 7 the
> worst. For me, I would not want to change a darn thing in the first six
> seasons. But Season 7, there are so many things that are not right that I
> don't know where to begin (actually I do, but that should be for another
> thread). without Selfless, CWDP, Storyteller, and LMPTM, Season 7 would be
> an abomination (by BtVS standards).
Well I disagree - I think 'Lessons' is the best season opener, Chosen a
perfect end, and with stuff like 'Sleeper', 'First Date', 'Get It Done'
and 'Help' (to mention a few) it is a season just as solid as any
other. (Honestly I've just finished S4, and although it has some great
episodes, Adam makes me want to hurl bricks at the TV.)
> > More importantly, even if BTVS and ATS had never produced a single
> > watchable minute again, FF would've been worth it. I'm just saying.
And that... hmmm... possibly true! ;) I mean what kind of world would
it be without Captain Tightpants? *goes to happy place*
(Harmony) Watcher
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164871578.8...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164846862....@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> > (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > > ... but mostly in Season 7 when the writing became "hole-ier" than swiss
> > > cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
>
> > Joss-drain during S6 when he was putting it together than during S7;
> > the show had already been cancelled once it came time to wrap things
> > up. Also, shouldn't we also blame David Greenwalt for leaving _Angel_
> > when discussing sources of distraction?
> >
> Some people have said that and Joss might even have led people to believe
> that. But no matter, the record speaks for itself. I have yet to see a
> person who would rank Season 7 the best, whereas there are countless people
> who rank Season 6 the best.
But percieved lack of quality isn't a measure of how involved Joss was,
much as his disciples would beg to differ. It's established that he
wasn't running S6 on a day-to-day basis while he was making _Firefly_.
And some of the S7 episodes you list as highlights were written while
he was working on FF. By the end of the season FF was dead and can
thus no longer be blamed for his percieved lack of input to BTVS... and
unlike S6, he wrote and directed the finale. Maybe it was the relative
loss of Marti, who had more writing credits in S6 than S7, that made
for the difference in consistency? (Except to those who think she's
the source of everything that's ever been wrong with the show, of
course.)
There're a few here who love S7. I'm certainly aware of its flaws, but
I enjoyed it almost as much as S6 overall, and above 4 and 5.
> > More importantly, even if BTVS and ATS had never produced a single
> > watchable minute again, FF would've been worth it. I'm just saying.
> >
> The last point is where we disagree on. I'd rather have a Season 7 with
> neither gaping holes nor countless execution errors than a lightning bug.
> From my perspective, to see a complete and wholesome Season 7 that is
> commensurate with the quality of the first six seasons would be far more
> desirable and rewarding than to see Joss' childhood fantasies of playing
> cowboys and indians in space realized, no matter how good lightning bug is.
> Joss's desire to try his hands in every movie genre that impressed him when
> he was a kid ultimately ruined Season 7 for me. I'm just saying :)
Nothing is more fulfilling than _Firefly_. It's been proven using
charts and graphs and such. Thinking about how good that show
would've been had it run a few seasons makes my feet ache. But then
again, maybe it's for the best that there was no chance for it to be
accused of sliding into mediocrity after Season Whatever.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
...just saying.
-AOQ
~post wasn't complete without it~
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > Nothing is more fulfilling than _Firefly_. It's been proven using
> > charts and graphs and such. Thinking about how good that show
using eight and half by eleven colored glossies
with circle and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one
explaining what each one is
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> ... but mostly in Season 7 when the writing became "hole-ier" than swiss
> cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
You're just saying crap. Its already been pointed out to you that Joss
was mainly working on Firefly during S6 (and you have no rely to that),
it got axed partway through S7 when he came back to Buffy. Blame the
perceived problems of S7 on something else.
This is just as bad as people blaming the direction of S6 on Marti Noxon
when all the evidence is that Joss was still involved in the creative
direction of the show it was just the production duties that Marti took
over.
--
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to
beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -
James Nicoll
(Harmony) Watcher
"Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:53c6a02hasd2$.18dn1wjf4wymh$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:18:18 GMT, (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > ... but mostly in Season 7 when the writing became "hole-ier" than swiss
> > cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
>
> You're just saying crap. Its already been pointed out to you that Joss
> was mainly working on Firefly during S6 (and you have no rely to that),
> it got axed partway through S7 when he came back to Buffy. Blame the
> perceived problems of S7 on something else.
>
exactly the right reasons why S7 was disorganized. Planning and organizing
an entire season of episodes which would be commensurate with the standards
of the first six seasons of BtVS must have required a lot of contemplative
thinking ahead of time by Joss. How could he have planned a good S7 of Buffy
if he were so pre-occupied with Firefly (such as even planning other seasons
of Firefly) during S6 of Buffy?
> This is just as bad as people blaming the direction of S6 on Marti Noxon
> when all the evidence is that Joss was still involved in the creative
> direction of the show it was just the production duties that Marti took
> over.
>
So you're saying that Joss's "defeat" in Firefly apparently had no negative
effect on the "hole-liness" of the last season of Buffy? Do you think that
he felt shipshape when he returned to overseeing Buffy S7? And even if he
were still in top-shape, it would have been too late as part of Season 7 was
done. Yeah, I think he must be overflowing with positive energy and
instantly regained his focus when he returned to Buffy S7 after the bug got
axed! Right!
Keep on believing that he did not lose his focus on Buffy, and S7 was just
as well-planned as any of the other seasons. I'll keep on believing S7's
unmistakable disorganization and global "hole-liness" was his fault because
he was distracted EARLIER during Season 6 of Buffy when he should have been
spending time planning for Season 7 instead of planning lightning bug
seasons.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> "Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:53c6a02hasd2$.18dn1wjf4wymh$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:18:18 GMT, (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > ... but mostly in Season 7 when the writing became "hole-ier" than swiss
> > > cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
> >
> > You're just saying crap. Its already been pointed out to you that Joss
> > was mainly working on Firefly during S6 (and you have no rely to that),
> > it got axed partway through S7 when he came back to Buffy. Blame the
> > perceived problems of S7 on something else.
> >
> Your argument holds no water. And Joss working on Firefly during S6 was
> exactly the right reasons why S7 was disorganized. Planning and organizing
> an entire season of episodes which would be commensurate with the standards
> of the first six seasons of BtVS must have required a lot of contemplative
> thinking ahead of time by Joss. How could he have planned a good S7 of Buffy
> if he were so pre-occupied with Firefly (such as even planning other seasons
> of Firefly) during S6 of Buffy?
Because if there's one thing Joss has never been, it's a workaholic
capable of overseeing multiple projects at once.
> > This is just as bad as people blaming the direction of S6 on Marti Noxon
> > when all the evidence is that Joss was still involved in the creative
> > direction of the show it was just the production duties that Marti took
> > over.
> >
> So you're saying that Joss's "defeat" in Firefly apparently had no negative
> effect on the "hole-liness" of the last season of Buffy? Do you think that
> he felt shipshape when he returned to overseeing Buffy S7? And even if he
> were still in top-shape, it would have been too late as part of Season 7 was
> done. Yeah, I think he must be overflowing with positive energy and
> instantly regained his focus when he returned to Buffy S7 after the bug got
> axed! Right!
At this point the discussion is in a territory that I don't find useful
or interesting: rampant speculation on what the writers "must have
been" feeling, going through, etc... One of the more memorable
comments I ever got was when Mike Z. pointed to a comment that could be
read to suggest writers' agendas and said something like "I have no use
for this type of criticism." I feel similarly here, so this is my last
comment on that topic.
> Keep on believing that he did not lose his focus on Buffy, and S7 was just
> as well-planned as any of the other seasons.
And at this point we're back into personal belief, so, okay, I will go
on thinking that. (Actually, I'd put it more critically; I believe
that some of the earlier seasons weren't planned better than S7. In
particular, S5 and S7 share the feeling of placing theme over
narrative, and of having made more sense in Joss's head than they did
once translated to screen. And S4... well, some great individual
episodes, but as far as planning and cohesiveness goes, Season Four is
a mess.)
-AOQ
~I'm just saying~
Henry Hartmann
--It's true. Season 7 is my favorite. I've said so many times, and
there have always been people who chimed in and said they agreed with
me.
The person AOQ is responding to either hasn't been paying attention, or
has been doing some selective editing so as to preserve his or her
worldview intact. Bushwah!
Clairel
Ian Galbraith
> "Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:53c6a02hasd2$.18dn1wjf4wymh$.dlg@40tude.net...
[snip]
>> You're just saying crap. Its already been pointed out to you that Joss
>> was mainly working on Firefly during S6 (and you have no rely to that),
>> it got axed partway through S7 when he came back to Buffy. Blame the
>> perceived problems of S7 on something else.
> Your argument holds no water. And Joss working on Firefly during S6 was
> exactly the right reasons why S7 was disorganized. Planning and organizing
> an entire season of episodes which would be commensurate with the standards
> of the first six seasons of BtVS must have required a lot of contemplative
> thinking ahead of time by Joss. How could he have planned a good S7 of Buffy
> if he were so pre-occupied with Firefly (such as even planning other seasons
> of Firefly) during S6 of Buffy?
So you do have a reply took you long enough, long enough that you obviously
had your conclusion and had to rationalise an explanation to fit that
conclusion.
Oh and as for your rationalisation itself it holds no water because Joss
has never been a great planner ahead of time. S6 is hardly any more
cohesively executed plotwise than S7, in fact I'd argue that the narrative
in S7 is actually stronger than S6.
>> This is just as bad as people blaming the direction of S6 on Marti Noxon
>> when all the evidence is that Joss was still involved in the creative
>> direction of the show it was just the production duties that Marti took
>> over.
> So you're saying that Joss's "defeat" in Firefly apparently had no negative
> effect on the "hole-liness" of the last season of Buffy?
I think it ended up better than it would have been if Firefly stayed on
air.
> Do you think that
> he felt shipshape when he returned to overseeing Buffy S7?
Yes because the episodes from when he returned to Buffy full time were
better and the overall direction improved.
[snip]
> Keep on believing that he did not lose his focus on Buffy, and S7 was just
> as well-planned as any of the other seasons. I'll keep on believing S7's
> unmistakable disorganization and global "hole-liness" was his fault because
> he was distracted EARLIER during Season 6 of Buffy when he should have been
> spending time planning for Season 7 instead of planning lightning bug
> seasons.
The direction of S6 was set in stone before S6, listening to the
commentaries the direction of the show is known years in advance. But thats
just a broad direction not specifics.
And just to repeat S6 had just as many if not more holes than S7 plotwise.
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
Elisi
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> Keep on believing that he did not lose his focus on Buffy, and S7 was just
> as well-planned as any of the other seasons. I'll keep on believing S7's
> unmistakable disorganization and global "hole-liness" was his fault because
> he was distracted EARLIER during Season 6 of Buffy when he should have been
> spending time planning for Season 7 instead of planning lightning bug
> seasons.
I'm sorry, but S7 is very, very good. Thematically it is freakin'
*awesome*. Thanks to AOQ I re-watched the whole thing, and I can't
remember anything ever sparking more thoughts and subsequent writing.
Whereas S6 is all about the character's internal battles (which I
*love* don't get me wrong), S7 is about... power,
isolation/connctedness, 'back to the beginning', forgiveness,
redemption... just to mention the most obvious. I honestly think that
S7 is the season I've written about the most, because there's just so
much *there* there.
Having just finished re-watching S4, I can say that although S4 has
some truly wonderful episodes in it, overall I struggle to find much to
say about it. And Adam is the dullest thing to ever appear on either
show. Sure Riley ain't much better, but at least he isn't ugly! I want
more from my show than just entertainment - it's the fact that most of
the time it really makes me think that makes me love it. The fact that
I can find new things on every re-watch - and that really is very true
of S7!
If you're curious, a few essays (I think all contain spoilers for AtS)
Themes and stuff in S7, parts by me, parts by one of my friends:
http://community.livejournal.com/lateseasonlove/993.html
The Big Bad of S7:
http://community.livejournal.com/lateseasonlove/5816.html
Episode thoughts (scroll down for S7 stuff):
http://elisi.livejournal.com/tag/episode+thoughts
And I must run. I'm sorry that you do not like S7, but for those who
bother looking there is a richness and depth that is incredibly
satisfying.
burt...@hotmail.com
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > "Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:53c6a02hasd2$.18dn1wjf4wymh$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > > On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:18:18 GMT, (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > ... but mostly in Season 7 when the writing became "hole-ier" than swiss
> > > > cheese while Joss went all glowy with lightning bug. I'm just saying.
> > >
> > > You're just saying crap. Its already been pointed out to you that Joss
> > > was mainly working on Firefly during S6 (and you have no rely to that),
> > > it got axed partway through S7 when he came back to Buffy. Blame the
> > > perceived problems of S7 on something else.
> > >
> > Your argument holds no water. And Joss working on Firefly during S6 was
> > exactly the right reasons why S7 was disorganized. Planning and organizing
> > an entire season of episodes which would be commensurate with the standards
> > of the first six seasons of BtVS must have required a lot of contemplative
> > thinking ahead of time by Joss. How could he have planned a good S7 of Buffy
> > if he were so pre-occupied with Firefly (such as even planning other seasons
> > of Firefly) during S6 of Buffy?
>
> Because if there's one thing Joss has never been, it's a workaholic
> capable of overseeing multiple projects at once.
Well, obviously not very well. Did the First Evil even have a plan that
made any sense *at all?* I mean, Glory was far from my favorite villain
on the show, but at least she had a clear goal, and the actions she
took (mostly) made sense within the context of that goal. But the FE?
> > > This is just as bad as people blaming the direction of S6 on Marti Noxon
> > > when all the evidence is that Joss was still involved in the creative
> > > direction of the show it was just the production duties that Marti took
> > > over.
> > >
> > So you're saying that Joss's "defeat" in Firefly apparently had no negative
> > effect on the "hole-liness" of the last season of Buffy? Do you think that
> > he felt shipshape when he returned to overseeing Buffy S7? And even if he
> > were still in top-shape, it would have been too late as part of Season 7 was
> > done. Yeah, I think he must be overflowing with positive energy and
> > instantly regained his focus when he returned to Buffy S7 after the bug got
> > axed! Right!
>
> At this point the discussion is in a territory that I don't find useful
> or interesting: rampant speculation on what the writers "must have
> been" feeling, going through, etc... One of the more memorable
> comments I ever got was when Mike Z. pointed to a comment that could be
> read to suggest writers' agendas and said something like "I have no use
> for this type of criticism." I feel similarly here, so this is my last
> comment on that topic.
Come on. Are you seriously saying that writers *never* have agendas,
and decisions about shows are *never* driven by external considerations
rather than what's best for the story? You don't strike me as that
naive.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Writers certaily have agendas, but I simply have no interest in trying
to extrapolate what they are based only on wild speculation. If I
don't like an episode, then (barring an actual quote from someone
involved in the show that's particularly damning) I'd rather judge it
for why it fails as a piece of TV than use it as a reason to launch
personal attacks on the writer and/or talk about how it "proves" that
they condone the mass drowning of puppies or whatever. As said before,
I also don't see any point to announcing totally unsubstantiated things
about people's private lives or emotional states; that's basically
worthless celebrity gossip, as far as I'm concerned. The rest of ya'll
do what you want, I'm just explaining why I don't think discussions of
that kind support an argument.
-AOQ.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>> Assuming he doesn't head back to Pylea, Groo could find work acting at a
>> Ren Faire. Now, looking back, we can see Groo's true role in season 3: to
>> allow Cordy to (very slowly) realize that she really loves Angel. He was
>> never important for himself.
>
> Doesn't work for me because I don't think the progression came off well
> at all. I've always had a hard time reconciling the Cordelia who's
> swooning over how brave and honest Groosalugg is with.. well, anything,
> really.
A new thought about this question just seeped to the front of my brain.
Well, "thought" might be too strong a word, but at least a new way of
looking at this question. Thinking back on the Cordy-Groo relationship
(Grordy?), I think Cordy's swooning over brave, honest, muscular Groo was
*supposed* to ring false. He was the kind of guy she *thought* she should
be attracted to: a good-looking hero who was slavishly devoted to her. And
she really was attracted to him back in Pylea. But when they got together
in LA, Cordelia was just going through the motions. Her hesitation after
getting him back to her apartment in Couplet was more than just
anxiousness about the actual sex -- she also wasn't certain if he was
really what she wanted, once the initial surprise and excitement wore off.
After that, she quickly set about trying to turn Groo into an Angel clone,
and when talking about him she sometimes seemed to damn him with faint
praise (eg, the puppy dog conversation from the Price). Groo was a bit
like Cordy's acting career after season 1: something she thought she
*should* want, rather than what she *really* wanted deep down inside. So
if Cordelia's swoon seemed wrong and out-of-character to you, I think it
was supposed to.
Of course, none of the above is likely to make you *enjoy* that plot line
any more than you did....
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Well, that does help me *appreciate* it more. I think the acting is a
better example of attempting that story. One can see being a superstar
as a dream of hers that she gradually loses interest in before
admitting it to herself, until she's triggered to give it up entirely
by the commerical shoot in "Belonging" and eventually reject it
outright in "Birthday." That's a satisfying character arclet. On the
other hand, since when has she ever wanted a relationship like the one
with Groosalugg? Thinking about it more, maybe Groo could be seen as a
hybrid of the heroic guy (like Doyle) and the guy who'll pander to her
every need (like the usable guys she favored in her high school days).
But the sparks of palpable anti-chemistry between them are hard to
ignore, so yeah, appreciating the theory doesn't lead to enjoying the
execution any better.
-AOQ
Mel
Remember waaay back in S1 of BtVS that Cordy hated someone (Jesse)
following her around "like a little puppy dog." She doesn't like it any
better now, but she thinks she should since she has "changed" so much.
But all that's different is she rejects him with love instead of contempt.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mel wrote:
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
Some things never quite change. But that being said, was her issue
with Jesse him following her around or just that he was a loser? One
would imagine that she liked it when the boys would shower her with
attention and gifts and basically treat her as the queen.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165424501.5...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
patronizing. Besides the hormones, she goes for Xander probably because she
knows intuitively that she does not really want her man to be like a minion.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
They have many interesting comments and thoughts.
But I think you are not quite getting my main criticisms of S7. I do *not*
disagree with the fact that there are lots of interesting themes that they
were trying to do in S7 which might parallel some themes in earlier seasons.
What I don't like about S7 is that after taking huge doses of suspension of
disbelief, the number of *execution* mistakes and the *degree* of
incoherence still stand out like eye-sores every time I re-watch, much much
more so than similar types of mistakes in all the earlier seasons. Of
course, that's just a personal assessment of mine about S7. But I'll bet if
I sit down and start tallying mistakes, S7 would have the most of them.
Even though I do not necessarily agree with all the remarks and opinions
that you and your friends made on those webpages you posted, I pretty much
disagree with the following rationale:
quote
In BtVS it is always the characters and their emotions that are most
important - here's Joss talking in 'Buffy - Television with a bite':
"I never took any science; I don't know how things work, I can barely tie my
shoes - but I understand emotions. So if we can get past that by going,
'well these things happen when you're on a Hellmouth' , um, then we can get
to what's important."
This way of storytelling underpins the entire show from beginning to end,
and holds true for the end of Season 7, too. Why Buffy's return made the
First Evil able to rise is not as important as the results. Just the same
way, the origins of the Scythe and the old woman don't really matter.
They're only a means to an end, a way for Buffy to change fate.
unquote
That's just a lame excuse for covering any errors arising from lack of
planning if there is not enough time (and when is time ever enough). Because
the main arc about FE trying to terminate the Slayer line is of such
monumental importance to S7, and indeed, to the *entire* series,
underpinning the coherence of the entire series on an *I don't care how it
works* is bordering on being irresponsible. This is what I disagree with the
most:
Why Buffy's return made the First Evil able to rise
is not as important as the results.
For me, I just can't stand FE in S7 and Buffy's resurrection in S6 being
simply McGuffins.
And I still think Joss should own up to the incoherence of FE, and the
overall incoherence of S7. I'm just saying, :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
rcamp...@gmail.com
Spike saved the world and we learned Buffy's power is evol in nature.
Its message was about women and power...but not quite the way some
people believe ;)
rcamp...@gmail.com
Elisi wrote:
>
> And I must run. I'm sorry that you do not like S7, but for those who
> bother looking there is a richness and depth that is incredibly
> satisfying.
Yup, the sun shone out of Spike's ass.
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> Spike saved the world and we learned Buffy's power is evol in nature.
> Its message was about women and power...but not quite the way some
> people believe ;)
Burt is that you.
--
"You can't stop the signal"
eli...@gmail.com
'Tis what makes the world go round, didn't you kow? *g*
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
Well, when he "asked" her to dance after he was vamped (and thus more
confident) she didn't say no. So, probably both.
Mel