AOQ Review 4-20: "The Yoko Factor"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
(or "If you can't trust Spike on these things, who *can* you
trust?")
Writer: Doug Petrie
Director: David Grossman
This one doesn't start so well, with the chat between the Dumbass
Colonel Guy and his superior, which continues the process of ensuring
that the Intiative remain a stock Sinister Soldier Group. It's hard to
tell whether the discussion about Riley being central to whatever
they're doing will be remembered, although the "connection" between him
and Adam which resurfaces at the end might be involved. One bit I'm
not fond of is the obsession with the idea that Riley thinks too much;
maybe thought wouldn't be valued for a private, but once you become
an officer in command of a group of men, I'd imagine intelligence would
be a worthwhile attribute. The problem is that he was getting
inquisitive about the wrong things, I'd say.
Althought Marsters is doing his damndest to save it, Spike and Adam's
chat is more or less the equivalent of sitting around laughing in an
evil manner. Who thinks that Spoik will find his new friend
continually unwilling to hold up his end of their bargain? Buffy comes
to face to face with our literally slapped-together Big Bad later,
where Adam will show again that he's hard to hit. Well, that was
certainly thrilling. And leading up to that, we get one last chance to
see Forrest's mistrust of Buffy which hasn't quite turned into fanatic
irrationality. So long, Forrest. We hardly knew ye. No, seriously,
it's impressive how little we got to know him, considering how much
screen time he got this year.
At least part of this one starts off on the right foot, with Wil and
Tara sharing some quality time with their new kitten. Good to see that
followed up on, and that's quite an adorable cat. "I keep thinking
'okay, that's the cutest thing ever,' and then she does something
cuter and completely resets the whole scale." Yep, that's kinda what
it's like in the beginning. The fact that the kitten doesn't seem too
happy that the actors insist on picking it up somehow makes things
funnier.
It's now pretty universally agreed that the Slaypack make Buffy a
threat, as a reservoir of support or whatever you want to call it. A
lot of this episode is about sabotaging it; specifically, Spike doing
so. If he's been waving a sign saying "I AM SOWING DISCORD," he
wouldn't have been all that much more conspicuous. His scene with
Giles I did like, starting with another acoustic-god performance
(anyone want to do the dissertation on the irony of "Freebird" as a
song choice? I'm too tired), his little yell upon being discovered,
and Spike's absolutely true observation that his former protégée is
treating him "very much like a retired librarian." The stuff with
everyone else, though, is just variations of "hey, [character I spend
no time with] was talking shit about you and saying exactly what I
think you fear. By the way, I am sowing discord." Hey, I just
realized that if I were writing this, I'd have left out the initial
explanation of his plan, let the viewer figure it out as it happened,
and moved a few lines of the whys and wherefores into the later
Spike/Adam scene. It'd have played better, I'm telling you. But if I
were writing it I wouldn't have gone this route at all, so...
Some dissent doesn't need any outside influence to get sown. After all
the talk about trust and openness, Buffy still left out part of the
Angel story. That's interesting, and the scene where Xander fills in
the blanks is well played. But then things go bad in a hurry once the
Slayer's past and present love interests meet, and immediately start
brawling within five seconds of meeting, apparently with full intent to
maim. There's not much to like during either confrontation scene and a
lot to dislike, be it the utterly irrational behavior from both, or
Riley's intermittent southern accent, or those blatantly-not-metal
metal drums that he gets thrown into. Worst moment for me is Angel's
"don't push me, boy." Not only is Boreanaz's delivery terrible, but
on a character level, I don't see any way for that particular line to
come out of Angel's mouth that doesn't seem wrong, no matter how well
it's played. On the "little to like" front, I guess Buffy's
exasperated "you've got to be kidding me" counts for something.
This is framed as a followup to "Sanctuary," but it feels like more of
an afterthought to even out the number of crossover appearances or
something (yeah, it's kinda thematically tied, but in the final
product it's more a distraction than anything else). "Sanctuary"
showed Buffy at her worst and she was still sympathetic, but Angel's
just a jerk here (Riley too). The comparison between two superficially
similar Angel lines, Sanct's "not to get all schoolyard on you, but
you hit me first," and TYF's "he started it" is a textbook
example of going from sublime to ricockulous. I don't know whether the
writer is pushing an all-men-are-testosterone-laden-morons theme, or
whether he simply doesn't have much respect for these characters.
Given that this sequence had to exist, the aftermath is done about as
well as possible. I quite liked, and was relieved by, the moment in
which our ex-lovers suddenly start laughing at how idiotic the whole
thing is. Some getting-carried-away was done, but it's over; let's
part as friends. Riley still comes across as a bit dumb (yeah, I can
really see where Buffy's behavior would lead to the conclusion that
Angel had gone evil), but he was wrapped up in passion or whatever, so
a little cheesy dialogue puts us back on the right page with him too as
if this sucky little interlude had never happened. I'm not
complaining. From there we get one of those nice moments where a scene
goes in a different direction than it looked like, as Buffy tells him
about Forrest, setting up the strange cliffhanger at the very end.
Unfortunately, another equally dumb squabble isn't as casually brushed
away. The big fight between the main characters can best be described
as taking stock of the running themes of the season, and then pissing
on them. What we have here isn't an argument [a connected series of
statements intended to establish a proposition], nor is it an
uncontrolled emotional outburst - it's a discontinuous collection
of isolated, badly written mini-speeches. Almost all of the details
are wrong with regards to the content too, not just the delivery. Up
until now, we've seen the realistic drift as friends discover that
they have less in common. Unlike The Beatles, there would've been no
reason for them to end up hating each other, but they would've had to
work through some changes and misgivings, and they would've had some
paranoia about what the others might be saying about them. None of
this has suggested anything that would lead to Buffy, Xander, and
Willow just standing around yelling at each other thanks to a little
gossip from their supposed enemy. And portraying this as a cataclysmic
moment that'll shake the foundations of their friendship is absurd.
(I realize that there's still hope that this will get a humorous
anticlimax too, next episode, but it's played as a crisis here.)
Just to be clear, I don't object to the idea of seeing our heroes get
into a major dispute either. "Becoming," "Dead Man's Party,"
and "Revelations" showed arguments based on actual issues; "The
Yoko Factor" has a bunch of children who're angry because the
writers wanted them to have a fight. I don't like the fact that no
one takes a second to say "hey, where'd you hear that from? I
never said that." I don't like the alleged humor of Willow
alternately commiserating with Xander and turning on him, over and
over. I don't like Buffy, fresh off defusing a similarly stupid
fight, sinking to the idiots' level before storming off. So I'd
say I pretty much don't like this scene, in case that was unclear.
Once again Giles is the exception, and the whole mess is worth watching
at least once just for him. He's hysterical getting drunk in the
background and basically being disdainful of the whole thing, and his
offscreen "bloody hell!" is one of the best moments of the episode.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- The clown pants
- "If ever a wiz there was"
- "Don't tell me you've never heard of The Beatles." "I
have. I like 'Helter Skelter'"
So...
One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
AOQ rating: Weak
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak
12) "A New Man" - Decent
13) "The I In Team" - Good
14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
16) "Who Are You?" - Good
17) "Superstar" - Decent
18) "Where The Wild Things Are" - Decent
19) "New Moon Rising" - Excellent
20) "The Yoko Factor" - Weak]
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> This is framed as a followup to "Sanctuary," but it feels like more of
> was still sympathetic, but Angel's just a jerk here (Riley too)...
> The big fight between the main characters can best be described
> as taking stock of the running themes of the season, and then pissing
> on them. What we have here isn't an argument [a connected series of
> statements intended to establish a proposition], nor is it an
> uncontrolled emotional outburst - it's a discontinuous collection
> of isolated, badly written mini-speeches...
> Just to be clear, I don't object to the idea of seeing our heroes get
> into a major dispute either. "Becoming," "Dead Man's Party,"
> and "Revelations" showed arguments based on actual issues; "The
> Yoko Factor" has a bunch of children who're angry because the
> writers wanted them to have a fight.
Hear, hear -- I agree completely with your review. The contrast with
the conflicts in Revelations (also credited to Petrie) is again
notable.
> - "Don't tell me you've never heard of The Beatles." "I
> have. I like 'Helter Skelter'".
That was a great line. I quite liked the early scene with Adam
accurately reading Spike's thoughts, and Spike's reaction, comparing
him to Tony Robbins. Also nicknaming Adam "Mr. Bits," and trying not
to fluster when asked why he hasn't managed to kill Buffy. Marsters
saves many a scene, doesn't he? (Though the actor playing Adam is
excellent too, say what you will about the character & the story.)
--Kevin
drifter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
> (or "If you can't trust Spike on these things, who *can* you
> trust?")
> The stuff with
> everyone else, though, is just variations of "hey, [character I spend
> no time with] was talking shit about you and saying exactly what I
> think you fear. By the way, I am sowing discord."
Have you ever considered re-doing your reviews as parodies of
the existing scripts, once you get done?
> One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Got to agree. As long as they've known each other, not one of
them responded to Spike's remarks with, "Wow, that sounds like
a load of bullshit! Say, you're evil, right?"
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
>(or "If you can't trust Spike on these things, who *can* you
>trust?")
>Writer: Doug Petrie
>Director: David Grossman
>Althought Marsters is doing his damndest to save it, Spike and Adam's
>chat is more or less the equivalent of sitting around laughing in an
>evil manner. Who thinks that Spoik will find his new friend
>continually unwilling to hold up his end of their bargain?
Well, among others, Spike. (or Spoik, were you having a Dru moment?)
>Buffy comes
>to face to face with our literally slapped-together Big Bad later,
>where Adam will show again that he's hard to hit. Well, that was
>certainly thrilling. And leading up to that, we get one last chance to
>see Forrest's mistrust of Buffy which hasn't quite turned into fanatic
>irrationality. So long, Forrest. We hardly knew ye. No, seriously,
>it's impressive how little we got to know him, considering how much
>screen time he got this year.
Hey, we know him better than Graham :)
>Just to be clear, I don't object to the idea of seeing our heroes get
>into a major dispute either. "Becoming," "Dead Man's Party,"
>and "Revelations" showed arguments based on actual issues; "The
>Yoko Factor" has a bunch of children who're angry because the
>writers wanted them to have a fight. I don't like the fact that no
>one takes a second to say "hey, where'd you hear that from? I
>never said that." I don't like the alleged humor of Willow
>alternately commiserating with Xander and turning on him, over and
>over. I don't like Buffy, fresh off defusing a similarly stupid
>fight, sinking to the idiots' level before storming off. So I'd
>say I pretty much don't like this scene, in case that was unclear.
>Once again Giles is the exception, and the whole mess is worth watching
>at least once just for him. He's hysterical getting drunk in the
>background and basically being disdainful of the whole thing, and his
>offscreen "bloody hell!" is one of the best moments of the episode.
I also liked Anya and Tara, the SOs of family members, retreating to teh
bathroom when the family fight breaks out.
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
>
>AOQ rating: Weak
See a lot of people had that same reaction when it first aired, but it when
it was repeated... well, out of 144 episodes of Buffy that aired on the WB
and on UPN, this is the only one that was never repeated, on either
network. Make of that what you will.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Stephen Tempest
>On the "little to like" front, I guess Buffy's
>exasperated "you've got to be kidding me" counts for something.
Seeing tiny little Buffy threaten to put both men in hospital if they
didn't stop arguing raised a smile for me... Normally they try to
shoot Sarah's scenes so she isn't obviously much shorter than the
other actors, but here they deliberately book-ended her in centre
frame.
> I don't know whether the
>writer is pushing an all-men-are-testosterone-laden-morons theme,
Maybe Marti had secretly implanted a brainwashing chip in his skull?
>None of
>this has suggested anything that would lead to Buffy, Xander, and
>Willow just standing around yelling at each other thanks to a little
>gossip from their supposed enemy.
Hmm. It worked much better for me... perhaps because the way I saw
it, it *wasn't* because of Spike. He was the catalyst, but the
arguments were already there. Willow's paranoia about what the others
were thinking with regard to her and Tara is entirely believable. The
thing about Xander and joining the army came out of left field, but
it's not as if it doesn't tie into his twin fears of drifting apart
from his friends, and being a big failure in life. Plus Giles is
having a mid-life crisis and Buffy has a martyr complex. Big surprise
there. <g>
Random observation: Willow talking about taking a drama class next
year, compared to her utter stage fright three years earlier in 'The
Puppet Show' and 'Nightmares.'
Naq fcbg gur vebal va "Lbh pnaabg unir zber pngavc! Lbh
unir n pngavc ceboyrz!"
Stephen
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
> (or "If you can't trust Spike on these things, who *can* you
> trust?")
> Writer: Doug Petrie
> Director: David Grossman
>
> This one doesn't start so well, with the chat between the Dumbass
> Colonel Guy and his superior, which continues the process of ensuring
> that the Intiative remain a stock Sinister Soldier Group. It's hard to
> tell whether the discussion about Riley being central to whatever
> they're doing will be remembered, although the "connection" between him
> and Adam which resurfaces at the end might be involved. One bit I'm
> not fond of is the obsession with the idea that Riley thinks too much;
> maybe thought wouldn't be valued for a private, but once you become
> an officer in command of a group of men, I'd imagine intelligence would
> be a worthwhile attribute. The problem is that he was getting
> inquisitive about the wrong things, I'd say.
The problem is that Joss and his writers didn't have the first clue
about the military [insert anti-Hollywood-liberal rant here].
> Unfortunately, another equally dumb squabble isn't as casually brushed
> away. The big fight between the main characters can best be described
> as taking stock of the running themes of the season, and then pissing
> on them.
At the time, I thought that scene was one of the funniest I'd seen on
the show. It was written as a sitcom scene. What's tragic for the
characters is funny for the audience. Except, after rewatching it, and
really thinking about it, it isn't really that funny after all, for the
reasons that you lay out.
> One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
That's a good one-sentence summary for the whole arc right there. The
writers have admitted that they kind of lost control of the plot in
late S4. They often weren't sure of what Adam's purpose was, for
example. The back half of the season sometimes has the feel of
improvisation. Or possibly floundering around aimlessly, if one is
inclined toward a harsher view. Around this point the ratings sank to
levels not seen since S1 as some of the fans lost interest too.
TYF is actually Part 1 of the season finale, with "Primeval" being Part
2. Then follows a Joss-written coda. They did it that way just to
break up the pattern from the previous two seasons. Anyway, this makes
TYF even more disappointing; it really doesn't work as a Part 1.
Next up: "Primeval," or "David Fury has to redeem the whole season arc
in one episode." Can he do it? Or will the whole thing blow up in his
face? Oh wait, they did that last season.
-- Mike Zeares
Opus the Penguin
> See a lot of people had that same reaction when it first aired,
> but it when it was repeated... well, out of 144 episodes of Buffy
> that aired on the WB and on UPN, this is the only one that was
> never repeated, on either network. Make of that what you will.
I'm going to need some help here. I can't make anything of it on my
own.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
> > (or "If you can't trust Spike on these things, who *can* you
> > trust?")
> > Writer: Doug Petrie
> > Director: David Grossman
> >
> > This one doesn't start so well, with the chat between the Dumbass
> > Colonel Guy and his superior, which continues the process of ensuring
> > that the Intiative remain a stock Sinister Soldier Group. It's hard to
> > tell whether the discussion about Riley being central to whatever
> > they're doing will be remembered, although the "connection" between him
> > and Adam which resurfaces at the end might be involved. One bit I'm
> > not fond of is the obsession with the idea that Riley thinks too much;
> > maybe thought wouldn't be valued for a private, but once you become
> > an officer in command of a group of men, I'd imagine intelligence would
> > be a worthwhile attribute. The problem is that he was getting
> > inquisitive about the wrong things, I'd say.
>
> The problem is that Joss and his writers didn't have the first clue
> about the military [insert anti-Hollywood-liberal rant here].
Even though he did talk to some writers who did know a little bit about
the military, before going into season 4. He apparently didn't listen
too much to what they told him.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:1148414210.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
Back in the review for AtS's Eternity you asked me how often it happens that
I agree with your review across the board.
Well, this isn't one of those times. ;-) I love this episode. It's
another Excellent for me.
Not that I think you'll be alone on this. I'm curious to see how the others
here react to this episode, but I'm kind of expecting a lot of negative
reaction. After all, everything is absurdly obvious to the viewer -
practically spelled out with children's blocks. How could the characters
not get it? But....
First, let me say that I think the episode does falter badly at one point.
The first Buffy/Riley encounter I think was awful. Even with SMG trying
hard to sell the part. (I did like her fidgeting.) And the pants joke was
an utter disaster. Three times they tried to go to it in that scene - and
it was already old before Riley showed up. Doubly old when you remember
that it's just a rerun of dress Spike in Xander's clothes that we saw in
Doomed - when it was done far better.
But that's the only scene I truly disliked.
> This one doesn't start so well, with the chat between the Dumbass
> Colonel Guy and his superior, which continues the process of ensuring
> that the Intiative remain a stock Sinister Soldier Group. It's hard to
> tell whether the discussion about Riley being central to whatever
> they're doing will be remembered, although the "connection" between him
> and Adam which resurfaces at the end might be involved. One bit I'm
> not fond of is the obsession with the idea that Riley thinks too much;
> maybe thought wouldn't be valued for a private, but once you become
> an officer in command of a group of men, I'd imagine intelligence would
> be a worthwhile attribute. The problem is that he was getting
> inquisitive about the wrong things, I'd say.
Evidently Colonel Dumbass's job is not to think too much. Aside from some
general information about the state of affairs within the Initiative, we do
learn that the big cheeses in charge don't know much about Buffy and that
Dumbass doesn't believe in her. Just a girl.
> Althought Marsters is doing his damndest to save it, Spike and Adam's
> chat is more or less the equivalent of sitting around laughing in an
> evil manner.
Hmmph.
ADAM: You feel smothered. Trapped like an animal. Pure in its ferocity,
unable to actualize the urges within. Clinging to one truth. Like a flame
struggling to burn within an enclosed glass. That a beast this powerful
cannot be contained. Inevitably it will break free and savage the land
again.
I'm with Spike. That's beautiful, man. And though we know it's not quite
an accurate description of our Spike, it does speak to his aspirations.
The substance of the conversation, of course, is Adam learning more about
The Slayer, and working out the details of how to get her into Adam's plan
as Adam wants her. Also it gets Spike enthused - not a bad thing I think.
Spike: Plus, it will make her miserable. And I never get tired of that.
(Incidentally, Spike's whole play here was presaged in Doomed. That's
largely where Spike got the idea for his ploy, and why he thinks it would
work. He's already planted some seeds of dissension.)
> Who thinks that Spoik will find his new friend
> continually unwilling to hold up his end of their bargain?
A little flashback to your Goodbye Iowa review:
> Still at large to be addressed, as far as I can tell: ...Spike's plans for
> the future (wild guess here, but I think he'll end up turning to the >
> Scoobies to save him)
Predictions can be funny things. Not to say that still won't happen.
> Buffy comes
> to face to face with our literally slapped-together Big Bad later,
> where Adam will show again that he's hard to hit. Well, that was
> certainly thrilling. And leading up to that, we get one last chance to
> see Forrest's mistrust of Buffy which hasn't quite turned into fanatic
> irrationality. So long, Forrest. We hardly knew ye. No, seriously,
> it's impressive how little we got to know him, considering how much
> screen time he got this year.
Well, we saw how lost he was without Riley. It sure is a brutal demise for
him. Maybe we didn't get to know him enough, but we did get to see how much
he changed. Remember what a likable presence he was in The Inititiative?
He's so bitter at the end. Very sad. Anyway, this and the opening scene
tell me how hunkered down, tense, and removed from reality the Initiative
has become. They've drawn into themselves and are acting like they're
cornered - ready to explode.
> At least part of this one starts off on the right foot, with Wil and
> Tara sharing some quality time with their new kitten. Good to see that
> followed up on, and that's quite an adorable cat. "I keep thinking
> 'okay, that's the cutest thing ever,' and then she does something
> cuter and completely resets the whole scale." Yep, that's kinda what
> it's like in the beginning. The fact that the kitten doesn't seem too
> happy that the actors insist on picking it up somehow makes things
> funnier.
A nice little up moment - and a peak into Willow and Tara's new and happy
life. They also muse a little about next year.
> It's now pretty universally agreed that the Slaypack make Buffy a
> threat, as a reservoir of support or whatever you want to call it. A
> lot of this episode is about sabotaging it; specifically, Spike doing
> so. If he's been waving a sign saying "I AM SOWING DISCORD," he
> wouldn't have been all that much more conspicuous.
Maybe. I'm going to guess that this aspect gets the most criticism. And
it's certainly patently obvious to us. But I think it's more deftly handled
than it might seem, and that the Yoko Factor title really is apt.
> His scene with
> Giles I did like, starting with another acoustic-god performance
> (anyone want to do the dissertation on the irony of "Freebird" as a
> song choice? I'm too tired),
No. But I do want to say that, unlike Behind Blue Eyes, I think his singing
is outstanding here. After not liking his first singing effort, this really
startled me.
> his little yell upon being discovered,
> and Spike's absolutely true observation that his former protégée is
> treating him "very much like a retired librarian."
Spike nailed the dissension bit with Giles. The easiest of the three
because he could stick to the truth. Of course Giles has been thinking much
of that all along. Spike's cleverness in pushing him over the edge was
refusing to deal with him. It had to be Buffy. (Of course he dealt with
him anyway - Giles has the money after all. But the damage had been done by
then.)
The chancier part was offering info from the Initiative. But I guess he'd
genuinely helped them in the past just enough for Giles to go for it -
however warily.
> The stuff with
> everyone else, though, is just variations of "hey, [character I spend
> no time with]
Ah, but the characters he's speaking to aren't spending time with them
either. How would they know what time Spike has spent with them? Willow
and Buffy are constantly walking alone into their empty dorm room seeing
that the other isn't there. Xander and Giles have been reduced to hanging
with each other. Though mostly it's the 3 couples going their own way and
Giles singing wistful songs.
> was talking shit about you and saying exactly what I
> think you fear.
What they do fear. Giles and Xander really do fear being left out -
discounted. That point has been hammered all season long. Willow's fear is
newer, but more fragile. She's only just admitted to being gay (and as we
see here, that fact hadn't been fully spread yet), so she's still afraid of
fallout.
> By the way, I am sowing discord."
Heh. Well he was. But most of his actual words were to downplay it or
change the topic. Other than Giles, which was a different play, the targets
ran with the idea quite on their own and largely ignored Spike.
> Hey, I just
> realized that if I were writing this, I'd have left out the initial
> explanation of his plan, let the viewer figure it out as it happened,
> and moved a few lines of the whys and wherefores into the later
> Spike/Adam scene. It'd have played better, I'm telling you. But if I
> were writing it I wouldn't have gone this route at all, so...
Well, you didn't like what was done, so of course you look for an
alternative. But the idea was to enjoy the play *with* Spike rather than
just see it happen. Since seeing it happen comes in the payoff squabble at
the end, I think it really is more fun to know the objective up front and
enjoy the setup along with Spike.
Ok. Xander in the army. That's probably the riskiest one, since the idea
is so made up and silly. (Though, damn, it sure provides some funny
moments. Like the bit with Anya hitting Xander. And Giles spluttering,
"Fort Dix?") But the silly could be seen as part of the ploy. It sure gets
Xander's attention. And then Spike backs off, suggesting he misunderstood,
and describing something considerably vaguer that his "girlie-mates" were
joking about. Then he leaves it to Xander to get riled up on his own,
imagining what they were really on about. Which is exactly the kind of
thing he fears they would gossip about - his inadequacies. And then Anya
validates the idea for him.
Anya: They look down on you.
Xander: And they hate you.
Anya: But they don't look down on me.
Meanwhile, Spike is just prattling on about the clothes.
The point is that Xander does the work, not Spike. That's what's neat about
the process. Well, that and the jokes. It's a funny scene.
Anya: Wow. That chip in your head means you can't even point a gun. How
humiliating.
-----
Xander: Give it up for a American chipmanship.
-----
Xander: (looks to Anya) Help me out.
Anya: He's a Viking in the sack.
I won't disect the Willow example like that. It plays in a similar fashion.
The hook is Spike describing it as a Wicca thing - again suggesting that he
doesn't really understand what he heard. Willow runs right away to the
awkward conversation with Buffy last episode and it doesn't much matter what
Tara or Spike say after that. She's convinced.
The subterfuge of Spike getting the conversations wrong is no small thing
for making this work and disguising his intent. This is a type of
confidence game - where the mark is given the confidence that he/she is the
one on top of the situation rather than whoever is playing them. Willow and
Xander think they understand better than Spike what's going on. So Spike
doesn't count. Scam artists get away with outrageous stuff that way -
leaving people later on shaking their heads wondering what the hell they
were thinking to fall for it.
But the key is the Yoko factor. They were already primed. Spike's just the
spark. Once things move that direction, the final argument takes on more
things than Spike offered.
> Some dissent doesn't need any outside influence to get sown. After all
> the talk about trust and openness, Buffy still left out part of the
> Angel story. That's interesting, and the scene where Xander fills in
> the blanks is well played.
Buffy left out *two* parts of the Angel story. Buffy didn't tell Riley
about her sending Angel to Hell either. That might be harder for Riley to
cope with than the sex part.
> But then things go bad in a hurry once the
> Slayer's past and present love interests meet, and immediately start
>brawling within five seconds of meeting, apparently with full intent to
> maim.
I think the most discordant moment this episode - maybe even for the whole
season - is when Angel initially appears in his classic coat flapping pose.
I was really struck by that this last viewing. Boy, does he look out of
place. Like he really doesn't belong here anymore. It's not just
situational. It's the look. All of a sudden I realized that BtVS doesn't
look the same as it did in S1-S3.
This also brings me back to when I started watching the series and S4 was
the first thing I saw. Angel's appearance annoyed the piss out of me then.
I so did not want another intrusion from Buffy's long gone boyfriend who I
knew nothing about and had nothing to do with what was going on here. As an
intrusive quality, this appearance is far worse than in Pangs. I think this
is when I made my early decision that I didn't like Angel.
I've softened a lot since then. I think the dorm room scene is funny. And,
now, having finally seen AtS's Sanctuary, his appearance even makes a little
sense. It's still awkward, and I don't think they should keep it up.
> There's not much to like during either confrontation scene and a
> lot to dislike, be it the utterly irrational behavior from both, or
> Riley's intermittent southern accent,
I kind of liked, "I surely do," even though it was obviously futile of him.
I also was really impressed how Angel made Riley almost seem small.
> or those blatantly-not-metal
> metal drums that he gets thrown into.
Getting kind of picky for a TV show on a tight budget. Now the monster in
Bad Eggs. That was bad.
> Worst moment for me is Angel's
> "don't push me, boy." Not only is Boreanaz's delivery terrible, but
> on a character level, I don't see any way for that particular line to
> come out of Angel's mouth that doesn't seem wrong, no matter how well
> it's played.
Well, he's jealous. He's in a bad mood from being jumped by four soldiers -
who he thinks Riley set on him. And Riley is pushing him about losing his
soul - as in sex with Buffy, which is what Riley is having and Angel is
jealous about. It's a put down. Seems earned to me.
> On the "little to like" front, I guess Buffy's
> exasperated "you've got to be kidding me" counts for something.
Works for me. I get a kick out of the whole testosterone match in the dorm
room.
> This is framed as a followup to "Sanctuary," but it feels like more of
> an afterthought to even out the number of crossover appearances or
> something
Probably true. And the BtVS story line didn't have a good place to insert
Angel the way Sanctuary gave a natural place for Buffy.
> (yeah, it's kinda thematically tied, but in the final
> product it's more a distraction than anything else). "Sanctuary"
> showed Buffy at her worst and she was still sympathetic, but Angel's
> just a jerk here (Riley too).
The thing is that they're both harboring anger at Buffy. That anger being
about each other. So putting them together at this moment is stuffing two
cats in a bag. I think a fair effort was made to establish each of their
states of mind. Their fight and their attitude makes sense to me.
> The comparison between two superficially
> similar Angel lines, Sanct's "not to get all schoolyard on you, but
> you hit me first," and TYF's "he started it" is a textbook
> example of going from sublime to ricockulous.
I laughed. Especially Buffy cutting him off with her school marm finger
gesture.
> I don't know whether the
> writer is pushing an all-men-are-testosterone-laden-morons theme, or
> whether he simply doesn't have much respect for these characters.
What, current and former boyfriends never have fights? It makes sense to
me, and it's funny. Leaving poor Riley to stew in his foolishness when he
says he won't move.
Incidentally, I think SMG is very good from Angel showing up until Riley
departs.
> Given that this sequence had to exist, the aftermath is done about as
> well as possible. I quite liked, and was relieved by, the moment in
> which our ex-lovers suddenly start laughing at how idiotic the whole
> thing is. Some getting-carried-away was done, but it's over; let's
> part as friends.
"I was trying to make things better." A well timed line. And solves the
situation nicely. Although now I'm wondeirng how many times they're going
to bring closure to their relationship. Nightmares of the endless S3
breakup threaten.
> Riley still comes across as a bit dumb (yeah, I can
> really see where Buffy's behavior would lead to the conclusion that
> Angel had gone evil),
Uh, I think it's Angel's behavior that led him to that conclusion.
> but he was wrapped up in passion or whatever, so
> a little cheesy dialogue puts us back on the right page with him too as
> if this sucky little interlude had never happened. I'm not
> complaining.
You're not? Sounds like a radical interpretation of the text to me. LOL
> From there we get one of those nice moments where a scene
> goes in a different direction than it looked like, as Buffy tells him
> about Forrest, setting up the strange cliffhanger at the very end.
I keep getting caught by surprise there. Why is Riley leaving? That's not
how I'd expect him to react to the news.
And then later, oh, yeah. That's why.
> Unfortunately, another equally dumb squabble isn't as casually brushed
> away. The big fight between the main characters can best be described
> as taking stock of the running themes of the season, and then pissing
> on them. What we have here isn't an argument [a connected series of
> statements intended to establish a proposition],
Yes it is.
> nor is it an
> uncontrolled emotional outburst - it's a discontinuous collection
> of isolated, badly written mini-speeches. Almost all of the details
> are wrong with regards to the content too, not just the delivery. Up
> until now, we've seen the realistic drift as friends discover that
> they have less in common. Unlike The Beatles, there would've been no
> reason for them to end up hating each other, but they would've had to
> work through some changes and misgivings, and they would've had some
> paranoia about what the others might be saying about them. None of
> this has suggested anything that would lead to Buffy, Xander, and
> Willow just standing around yelling at each other thanks to a little
> gossip from their supposed enemy. And portraying this as a cataclysmic
> moment that'll shake the foundations of their friendship is absurd.
> (I realize that there's still hope that this will get a humorous
> anticlimax too, next episode, but it's played as a crisis here.)
This is terribly unfortunate. I understand you not liking the setup, but
this verbal fight is one of my favorites ever in the series. I find it both
electric and hysterical. And a lot more than Spike's gossip is at work.
> Just to be clear, I don't object to the idea of seeing our heroes get
> into a major dispute either. "Becoming," "Dead Man's Party,"
> and "Revelations" showed arguments based on actual issues; "The
> Yoko Factor" has a bunch of children who're angry because the
> writers wanted them to have a fight.
Which I'm afraid to say is much the same criticism given to Dead Man's
Party - as is not having a legit reason for it.
> I don't like the fact that no
> one takes a second to say "hey, where'd you hear that from? I
> never said that."
Because there happen to be precious few opportunities for that to even make
sense. Giles part is simply how he feels and never involves anything
somebody said. It's way into the fight before Willow brings up the Tara
issue, and it's not done as something she heard. She just says that Buffy
can't handle her being with Tara, and then is immediately interrupted by
Xander going on his own rant. Buffy probably knows why Willow believes that
anyway - which is not Spike, but Buffy's reaction to the news last episode.
That's the only time the Willow directed gossip is raised. Buffy brings in
her own gossip - which is true - about Xander telling Riley about Angel.
The only gossip piece where there might have been a decent chance to
question was Xander's soldier boy stuff. But that got confused and
overlayed with other issues and soon enough pushed behind in a not terribly
unnatural fashion.
Most of the fight didn't go anywhere to be questioned like that at all. The
center of it was Buffy bossing them around and discounting their value - a
long sore subject for both Willow and Xander. Spike's biggest influence was
simply to get them feeling stung to start with, so that an issue like Buffy
doing it her way bothers more. Especially with drunk Giles throwing out
barbs and not in the least bit interested in mediating anything.
> I don't like the alleged humor of Willow
> alternately commiserating with Xander and turning on him, over and
> over.
Xander accused Willow of gossipping about him when Willow was already upset
about Xander gossipping about her. Meanwhile, Buffy was mad at both of
them. Xander flip-flopped too, for similar reasons. The alignment of
issues was all confused. There is humor in it I think, but the confusion is
part of what propels the argument. Nobody can deal with one issue because
another one flies in from a different direction.
> I don't like Buffy, fresh off defusing a similarly stupid
> fight, sinking to the idiots' level before storming off.
I especially lose you there. The center of the argument - especially for
Buffy - is everybody making a stink about Buffy discounting their help. She
really is seriously trying to deal with what she thinks is a big deal and is
getting undercut. Throughout the argument she is, correctly, saying that
this isn't helping. And she shuts down the argument with the most sensible
thing anybody says.
Buffy: Enough! All I know is you want to help, right? Be part of the
team?
Willow and Xander shake their heads, grumbling.
Willow: (unison) I don't know anymore.
Xander: (unison) Really not wanted.
Buffy: (raising her voice) No! No, you said you wanted to go. So let's go!
All of us. We'll walk into that cave with you two attacking me and the
funny drunk drooling on my shoe! Hey! Hey, maybe that's the secret way of
killing Adam?!
Xander: Buffy . . .
Buffy: (hurt and angry) Is that it? Is that how you can help? (a beat)
You're not answering me! How can you possibly help?
I'm sure she'll regret that later - as well as the bitter remark about The
Slayer and her friends. But she's essentially right anyway. And they
really have let her down. She has cause to be angry and real need to shut
it down and get on her way. (Note that Xander and Willow couldn't answer.)
This isn't like the Riley/Angel fight, where it was at least easy to
understand and they weren't yelling at her. To her this is chaos, a kind of
rebellion, for lousy reasons, and it's getting in her way.
So, Giles really is bitter about his situation in life. Xander really does
feel isolated and not taken seriously. Willow really is hyper sensitive
about her gay status. Everybody really is sensitive to Buffy officiously
doing what she feels like and discounting them. Everybody really is
disconnected from each other vulnerable to imagining the worst. And Buffy
really is let down here. We've spent a season setting this up. Why
couldn't Spike exploit it?
> So...
> One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
> AOQ rating: Weak
My last comment is that I don't think the episode should be taken that
seriously. Yes, there's an important dramatic component to it, but mostly
it's very funny. Angel and Riley getting their dander up in front of Buffy
and having her separate them is a stich to me. And what a romp going along
with Spike playing his devilish pranks. And the closing fight is a terrific
comedy of errors.
Excellent
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Hear, hear -- I agree completely with your review. The contrast with
> the conflicts in Revelations (also credited to Petrie) is again
> notable.
Doug Petrie is probably the writer who confuses me the most. He has a
knack like none of the other regular staff for writing individual
scenes that really annoy me on a fundamental level. But he's also
given us cool stuff like "Revelations" and "This Year's Girl."
-AOQ
~maybe I should do what the Marti-haters do and insist that Joss must
have ghostwritten everything I like in a Doug episode~
Arbitrar Of Quality
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >None of
> >this has suggested anything that would lead to Buffy, Xander, and
> >Willow just standing around yelling at each other thanks to a little
> >gossip from their supposed enemy.
>
> Hmm. It worked much better for me... perhaps because the way I saw
> it, it *wasn't* because of Spike. He was the catalyst, but the
> arguments were already there. Willow's paranoia about what the others
> were thinking with regard to her and Tara is entirely believable. The
> thing about Xander and joining the army came out of left field, but
> it's not as if it doesn't tie into his twin fears of drifting apart
> from his friends, and being a big failure in life. Plus Giles is
> having a mid-life crisis and Buffy has a martyr complex. Big surprise
> there. <g>
That's the way I saw it too... or rather, that's what I figure the
intention was, although the final product failed miserably. Like I
said in the review, S4 gave us a convincing portrayal of good friends
drifting apart on good terms, and TYF gave us a contrvied and
unconvincing blowup theoretically based around it.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The problem is that Joss and his writers didn't have the first clue
> about the military [insert anti-Hollywood-liberal rant here].
It's weird that Soldier-Xander from "Halloween" turned out so well.
> TYF is actually Part 1 of the season finale etc.
Now, in case that's not clear, that's exactly the kind of stuff I don't
like to know about in advance. If the writers are going to play with
the conventional season structure, I'll find out when it happens.
Imagine me as a viewer who's anal-retnetive about not watching the
previews and avoiding any interview with the staff that might let me
know what they have planned.
-AOQ
~fortunately, I do have a "Primeval" review written and ready to post
in a couple days, and I watched "Restlesss" recently~
~~whenever I'm starting to feel guilty about having watched a little
ahead and given the impression otherwise, something like this seems to
happen~~
Arbitrar Of Quality
drifter wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > The stuff with
> > everyone else, though, is just variations of "hey, [character I spend
> > no time with] was talking shit about you and saying exactly what I
> > think you fear. By the way, I am sowing discord."
>
> Have you ever considered re-doing your reviews as parodies of
> the existing scripts, once you get done?
I have no sense of humor, remember?
I don't think I could be consistently funny, but your suggestion did
start to give me ideas. For example, the deeply thrilling conclusion
of "Wlecome To The Hellmouth":
WILLOW: Why am I getting this sudden feeling that I shouldn't be
walking into a crypt with a strange pale guy I've never seen before?
GUY WHOSE NAME I FORGET: Grrrr!
JESSE: Hey! Where girl go?
DARLA: Grrrr!
JESSE: Girl pretty!
GUY: Who're you?
BUFFY: I'm a vampire slayer, like it says in the name of the show.
Director, make sure you show off our one special effect after I kill
this guy.
LUKE: I talk in many more cliches, and am therefore much scarier!
BUFFY: Oh, shit.
THE MASTER [reading]: Evil things shall happen evilly, and the world
shall bleed in an evil manner!
TO BE CONTINUED...
-AOQ
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Now, in case that's not clear, that's exactly the kind of stuff I don't
> like to know about in advance. If the writers are going to play with
> the conventional season structure, I'll find out when it happens.
> Imagine me as a viewer who's anal-retnetive about not watching the
> previews and avoiding any interview with the staff that might let me
> know what they have planned.
Sorry. Although I thought the "To be continued" might have been a
giveaway. I was actually expecting you to comment on that and post up
your "Primeval" review right away. Well, we know what happens when one
assumes.
Saying that you're the type of viewer who avoids previews and
interviews clarifies the issue. I was like that with season 1 Alias.
Won't happen again. From me, anyway.
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> genuinely helped them in the past just enough for Giles to go for it -
> however warily.
the part were spike has to act like hes out of breath from running
umm vampires dont breathe right?
> My last comment is that I don't think the episode should be taken that
> seriously. Yes, there's an important dramatic component to it, but mostly
ive never known whether that bloody hell was directed at willow or xander
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
free the indianapolis 500 - up against the mall motherhuggers
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-4C803...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> The chancier part was offering info from the Initiative. But I guess
>> he'd
>> genuinely helped them in the past just enough for Giles to go for it -
>> however warily.
>
> the part were spike has to act like hes out of breath from running
> umm vampires dont breathe right?
>
>> My last comment is that I don't think the episode should be taken that
>> seriously. Yes, there's an important dramatic component to it, but
>> mostly
>
> ive never known whether that bloody hell was directed at willow or xander
Uh.. Good question. I don't know. I had always taken for granted that it
was Willow. But it works the other way just as well.
Well, his hangover will be just as big either way.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > Althought Marsters is doing his damndest to save it, Spike and Adam's
> > chat is more or less the equivalent of sitting around laughing in an
> > evil manner.
>
> Hmmph.
>
> ADAM: You feel smothered. Trapped like an animal. Pure in its ferocity,
> unable to actualize the urges within. Clinging to one truth. Like a flame
> struggling to burn within an enclosed glass. That a beast this powerful
> cannot be contained. Inevitably it will break free and savage the land
> again.
Characters who talk in bad poetry have never done much for me.
> A little flashback to your Goodbye Iowa review:
>
> > Still at large to be addressed, as far as I can tell: ...Spike's plans for
> > the future (wild guess here, but I think he'll end up turning to the >
> > Scoobies to save him)
>
> Predictions can be funny things. Not to say that still won't happen.
I'm rarely a perfect prognosticator, but ME are particularly good at
doing the unexpected in just about the right amounts.
> Spike nailed the dissension bit with Giles. The easiest of the three
> because he could stick to the truth.
And a big reason why I could buy Giles' behavior at the end more than I
could the others. Spike isn't making shit up, he pushes him over the
edge by playing to things that have built up all year. The other
reason is that Giles in the last scene is avoidant rather than
confrontational, as one might expect as a climax to his arc this year.
In contrast, the stuff with the other three tries for the same thing.
No one is missing the fact that Spike is just the catalyst for issues
that've been building for awhile to come to the surface. But after a
year of slow and realistic drifting apart, the "comedy of errors" (as
you call it) shouting match seems contrived. Again, I don't think the
Scoobies are like The Beatles because they don't fundamentally hate
each other. I see the issues they're having, I see the paranoia about
what the others might think of them, and I don't see it playing out the
way it does.
> > Worst moment for me is Angel's
> > "don't push me, boy." Not only is Boreanaz's delivery terrible, but
> > on a character level, I don't see any way for that particular line to
> > come out of Angel's mouth that doesn't seem wrong, no matter how well
> > it's played.
>
> Well, he's jealous. He's in a bad mood from being jumped by four soldiers -
> who he thinks Riley set on him. And Riley is pushing him about losing his
> soul - as in sex with Buffy, which is what Riley is having and Angel is
> jealous about. It's a put down. Seems earned to me.
When Angel gets angry, he's usually either cold and deadpan, or
extremely strident and decisive, speechmaking. The growling one-line
threats don't seem like his style at all, and I don't recall him ever
calling anyone "boy."
> Works for me. I get a kick out of the whole testosterone match in the dorm
> room.
Because all guys, regardless of their actual personalities, can be
easily moved to roll around in the dirt punching each other.
> > This is framed as a followup to "Sanctuary," but it feels like more of
> > an afterthought to even out the number of crossover appearances or
> > something
>
> Probably true. And the BtVS story line didn't have a good place to insert
> Angel the way Sanctuary gave a natural place for Buffy.
Buffy was integral to "Sanctuary," Angel seems, as you've said, out of
place here. I didn't have that problem at all with "Pangs," BTW.
> > Unfortunately, another equally dumb squabble isn't as casually brushed
> > away. The big fight between the main characters can best be described
> > as taking stock of the running themes of the season, and then pissing
> > on them. What we have here isn't an argument [a connected series of
> > statements intended to establish a proposition],
>
> Yes it is.
No it isn't. (And this isn't an argument either, by the way. An
argument is more than just contradiction.)
> > Just to be clear, I don't object to the idea of seeing our heroes get
> > into a major dispute either. "Becoming," "Dead Man's Party,"
> > and "Revelations" showed arguments based on actual issues; "The
> > Yoko Factor" has a bunch of children who're angry because the
> > writers wanted them to have a fight.
>
> Which I'm afraid to say is much the same criticism given to Dead Man's
> Party - as is not having a legit reason for it.
I just want to say that if there's anyone here who liked this scene and
complained about the one in DMP for that reason, then the DVD
manufacturers must be playing around, because we're clearly watching
different shows. That'd be the only explanation.
> > I don't like Buffy, fresh off defusing a similarly stupid
> > fight, sinking to the idiots' level before storming off.
>
> I especially lose you there. The center of the argument - especially for
> Buffy - is everybody making a stink about Buffy discounting their help. She
> really is seriously trying to deal with what she thinks is a big deal and is
> getting undercut. Throughout the argument she is, correctly, saying that
> this isn't helping. And she shuts down the argument with the most sensible
> thing anybody says.
[snip]
> Buffy: (raising her voice) No! No, you said you wanted to go. So let's go!
> All of us. We'll walk into that cave with you two attacking me and the
> funny drunk drooling on my shoe! Hey! Hey, maybe that's the secret way of
> killing Adam?!
> Xander: Buffy . . .
> Buffy: (hurt and angry) Is that it? Is that how you can help? (a beat)
> You're not answering me! How can you possibly help?
>
> I'm sure she'll regret that later - as well as the bitter remark about The
> Slayer and her friends. But she's essentially right anyway. And they
> really have let her down. She has cause to be angry and real need to shut
> it down and get on her way. (Note that Xander and Willow couldn't answer.)
> This isn't like the Riley/Angel fight, where it was at least easy to
> understand and they weren't yelling at her. To her this is chaos, a kind of
> rebellion, for lousy reasons, and it's getting in her way.
Since I was on her side about the whole thing, I could understand her
wanting to push it aside, and eventually to leave, but she just sinks
to their level with the namecalling and the accusations. She at least
has a reason to be angry, though, so, uh, I guess I'm less bothered,
and don't really disagree with much of what you say.
> My last comment is that I don't think the episode should be taken that
> seriously.
I couldn't shake the feeling that despite the jokes, it was played for
serious (melo)drama, which tended to undercut the humorous moments
(which I didn't think were that funny anyway).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Sorry. Although I thought the "To be continued" might have been a
> giveaway. I was actually expecting you to comment on that and post up
> your "Primeval" review right away. Well, we know what happens when one
> assumes.
What's strange is that I don't really think of TYF/Prim as a
cliffhanger situation even thought it clearly is. Because TYF is so
limp, I guess. Well, does anyone want the "Primeval" (and "War Zone")
review sooner than usual, or shall we stick with one a day?
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
I'd have to disagree that Buffy and her friends drifting apart worked
as a seasonal theme. Certain individual episodes showcased the idea
very well, but the episodes in between just had them all hanging out
together like they always did. There was no consistency.
Apteryx
news:1148414210.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>threads.
>It's now pretty universally agreed that the Slaypack make Buffy a
>threat, as a reservoir of support or whatever you want to call it. A
>lot of this episode is about sabotaging it; specifically, Spike doing
>so. If he's been waving a sign saying "I AM SOWING DISCORD," he
>wouldn't have been all that much more conspicuous. His scene with
>Giles I did like, starting with another acoustic-god performance
>(anyone want to do the dissertation on the irony of "Freebird" as a
>song choice? I'm too tired), his little yell upon being discovered,
>and Spike's absolutely true observation that his former protégée is
>treating him "very much like a retired librarian." The stuff with
>everyone else, though, is just variations of "hey, [character I spend
>no time with] was talking shit about you and saying exactly what I
>think you fear. By the way, I am sowing discord." Hey, I just
>realized that if I were writing this, I'd have left out the initial
>explanation of his plan, let the viewer figure it out as it happened,
>and moved a few lines of the whys and wherefores into the later
>Spike/Adam scene. It'd have played better, I'm telling you. But if I
>were writing it I wouldn't have gone this route at all, so...
I was initially tempted to leap to the defence of TYF, because my reaction
to it has mellowed over the years. Sure, the everybody turn on Buffy theme
when conned by Spike is insufficiently supported by what we have seen
before, and yes, Angel's crossover is the lamest thing until his next one,
and sure, there is that whole all-men-are-testosterone-laden-morons theme
.... Actually those are pretty good reasons, I wonder if Danger Mouse is on
:)
I think the main problem stems from the fact that Joss Whedon no longer had
the same degree of hands on control that he had on the first 3 seasons. He
had mapped out a season arc where Buffy's growing isolation from her friends
would blow up in her face shortly before the finale, but the implementation
of that plan by other writers was flawed. I don't think the blame can be
laid at Petrie's door for writing this episode. He would have had his riding
instructions, to have the friends break up. But I don't think that could
have been realistically achieved in this one episode without a lot more
foundation having been laid in earlier episodes about how bad Buffy's
isolation was becoming.
>So...
>One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
>AOQ rating: Weak
This is another of the (at least 5) episodes that have once dead last on my
list of favourite season 4 episodes. It's still my least favourite episode
without a werewolf in it. But there is Giles. And I quite like the Spike and
Adam interaction. And I don't know that I'm entirely satisfied with
Shakespeare's motivation for Brutus to turn on his friend either, but
sometimes you have to accept that a dramatic work will show friends turning
on each other partly for the reasons shown in the work, and partly for a
whole lot of other stuff they didn't have time to show. But TYF is still
Weak. Its my 125th favourite BtVS episode, 20th best in Season 4.
--
Apteryx
Wes <>
wrote:
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1148414210.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Hey, I just
>> realized that if I were writing this, I'd have left out the initial
>> explanation of his plan, let the viewer figure it out as it happened,
>> and moved a few lines of the whys and wherefores into the later
>> Spike/Adam scene. It'd have played better, I'm telling you. But if I
>
>Well, you didn't like what was done, so of course you look for an
>alternative. But the idea was to enjoy the play *with* Spike rather than
>just see it happen. Since seeing it happen comes in the payoff squabble at
>the end, I think it really is more fun to know the objective up front and
>enjoy the setup along with Spike.
>
I think it would have been more dramatic if we had not known about
Spikes plan in advance and would have made for an equally good time.
But since I think the episode was meant to be more comedy than drama,
it works for me as is.
Give it a good+, one or two ticks short of excellent.
Wes
>> So...
>
>> One-sentence summary: No, no... you're doing it all wrong.
>
>> AOQ rating: Weak
>
>Excellent
>
>OBS
>
Wes <>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> > Just to be clear, I don't object to the idea of seeing our heroes get
>> > into a major dispute either. "Becoming," "Dead Man's Party,"
>> > and "Revelations" showed arguments based on actual issues; "The
>> > Yoko Factor" has a bunch of children who're angry because the
>> > writers wanted them to have a fight.
>>
>> Which I'm afraid to say is much the same criticism given to Dead Man's
>> Party - as is not having a legit reason for it.
>
>I just want to say that if there's anyone here who liked this scene and
>complained about the one in DMP for that reason, then the DVD
>manufacturers must be playing around, because we're clearly watching
>different shows. That'd be the only explanation.
>
>
>-AOQ
I'll check my dvds.
Wes
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> > Unfortunately, another equally dumb squabble isn't as casually brushed
>> > away. The big fight between the main characters can best be described
>> > as taking stock of the running themes of the season, and then pissing
>> > on them. What we have here isn't an argument [a connected series of
>> > statements intended to establish a proposition],
>>
>> Yes it is.
>
> No it isn't. (And this isn't an argument either, by the way. An
> argument is more than just contradiction.)
If I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
----
Or perhaps we should just move on to being hit in the head lessons.
(I performed this routine in college radio theater a long time ago. Along
with the Lumberjack Song.)
OBS
Eric Hunter
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>>> statements intended to establish a proposition],
>>
>> Yes it is.
>
> No it isn't. (And this isn't an argument either, by the way. An
> argument is more than just contradiction.)
Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position...
Eric.
--
Sam
For what it's worth, I read these at work when I'm bored, and as such
would be happy to see them posted as fast as you can crank them out.
Since it would allow more time for reading these and less time, y'know,
working.
--Sam
Kevin
One Bit Shy wrote:
> Willow's fear is newer, but more fragile. She's only just
> admitted to being gay (and as we see here, that fact hadn't
> been fully spread yet), so she's still afraid of fallout.
I'm not sure we've been told exactly what had or had not been fully
spread yet.
(*ZING!*)
> I think the most discordant moment this episode - maybe even for the whole
> season - is when Angel initially appears in his classic coat flapping pose.
> I was really struck by that this last viewing. Boy, does he look out of
> place. Like he really doesn't belong here anymore.
Indeed. I think Buffy's appearance in Sanctuary, though more apropos
(Faith), was almost as disconcerting; their worlds are separate now,
and should stay that way. It's funny -- Angel was central to S1&2 of
BTVS, his return in S3 left him meandering in and out of usefulness,
and his spinoff only happened because DB's acting had improved
enormously. But it came just in time; if Joss hadn't believed DB could
carry his own show, they'd need to drop him -- or else let that coat
flap its way through S4 like the houseguest who doesn't know when to
leave. Even with Cordy and then Wesley forging links from BTVS to AtS,
within one season the divergence is striking.
--Kevin
DysgraphicProgrammer
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
> trust?")
> Writer: Doug Petrie
> Director: David Grossman
> "I keep thinking
> 'okay, that's the cutest thing ever,' and then she does something
> cuter and completely resets the whole scale."
This is kind of the way I see Willow
DysgraphicProgrammer
Please stick to one a day. And I hope you plan to give a "summer break"
between seasons again. I have my Seasons B5 & A2 on order, but not yet
arrived.
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:1277g13...@news.supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148414210.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
>
> >
> > Worst moment for me is Angel's
> > "don't push me, boy." Not only is Boreanaz's delivery terrible, but
> > on a character level, I don't see any way for that particular line to
> > come out of Angel's mouth that doesn't seem wrong, no matter how well
> > it's played.
>
> Well, he's jealous. He's in a bad mood from being jumped by four
soldiers -
> who he thinks Riley set on him. And Riley is pushing him about losing his
> soul - as in sex with Buffy, which is what Riley is having and Angel is
> jealous about. It's a put down. Seems earned to me.
>
>
> > On the "little to like" front, I guess Buffy's
> > exasperated "you've got to be kidding me" counts for something.
>
> Works for me. I get a kick out of the whole testosterone match in the
dorm
> room.
>
>
Angel and Buffy and the Angel outburst at the end of AtS "Sanctuary".
Perhaps that's why it didn't work for him here either.
Calling Riley "boy" was childish of Angel, but that was exactly the point.
That was how Angel must have felt. He was already genuinely angry at Buffy
in LA even though he regretted it and must have tried to suppress it
afterwards. So Angel simply blamed it on Riley when the Initiative guys
attacked him. From Angel's POV, he sacrificed and suffered alone because he
wanted the "best" for Buffy. But what did she do in return? Gloat. And what
did her boyfriend do? Try to beat him up (from Angel's POV). There was only
so much the poor guy could take.
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-4C803...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
he'd
> > genuinely helped them in the past just enough for Giles to go for it -
> > however warily.
>
> the part were spike has to act like hes out of breath from running
> umm vampires dont breathe right?
>
> > My last comment is that I don't think the episode should be taken that
> > seriously. Yes, there's an important dramatic component to it, but
mostly
>
> ive never known whether that bloody hell was directed at willow or xander
>
fourth wall.
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-4C803...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
he'd
> > genuinely helped them in the past just enough for Giles to go for it -
> > however warily.
>
> the part were spike has to act like hes out of breath from running
> umm vampires dont breathe right?
>
> > My last comment is that I don't think the episode should be taken that
> > seriously. Yes, there's an important dramatic component to it, but
mostly
>
> ive never known whether that bloody hell was directed at willow or xander
>
hell". Was that his first "bloody hell" in BtVS?
==Harmony Watcher==
kenm47
season.
They really needed a longer season, or for Joss to decide to not have a
season ender in season 4.
It was OK as that, IMO.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> > Althought Marsters is doing his damndest to save it, Spike and Adam's
>> > chat is more or less the equivalent of sitting around laughing in an
>> > evil manner.
>>
>> Hmmph.
>>
>> ADAM: You feel smothered. Trapped like an animal. Pure in its
>> ferocity,
>> unable to actualize the urges within. Clinging to one truth. Like a
>> flame
>> struggling to burn within an enclosed glass. That a beast this powerful
>> cannot be contained. Inevitably it will break free and savage the land
>> again.
>
> Characters who talk in bad poetry have never done much for me.
Hmmph again.
Adam is a romantic at heart - as is Spike. He speaks with florid prose
because he has a florid dream. He is the dawn of a new age and a new
species and is about to embark on a glorious conquest. He recruits his
minions by infusing in them the wonder of that vision and seducing them with
a taste of their own exalted potential. He's a prophet, not a poet. And
his word skill is that of a demagogue. The fierce beast savaging the land
works not for its poetry, bur for its touching upon Spike's own dreams.
Spike is too self centered and cynical to stay bedazzled for long.
Especially by as dangerous a loon as Adam. But for a moment you can see him
touched by the dream. Spike is like the classic rebel teen lashing out with
boundless, but unfocussed energy. Reaching for glory, but utterly clueless
where to find it - comicly so. The chip in his head is the horror that
cages him in mundane life, blocking him from the power to achieve glory.
And he is obsessed by it. But is that really what blocks him? Did he
achieve that glory before the chip?
I guess I'm suggesting that there's a little bit of a character moment for
Spike here that maybe shouldn't be dismissed on the back of language too
flowery for your taste. Oh, it's not essential. There are ample variations
on the theme past and future. It's just that part of it is actually stated
here.
In BtVS, Big Bad oration is commonly for more than just sounding evil.
>> A little flashback to your Goodbye Iowa review:
>>
>> > Still at large to be addressed, as far as I can tell: ...Spike's plans
>> > for
>> > the future (wild guess here, but I think he'll end up turning to the >
>> > Scoobies to save him)
>>
>> Predictions can be funny things. Not to say that still won't happen.
>
> I'm rarely a perfect prognosticator, but ME are particularly good at
> doing the unexpected in just about the right amounts.
This is OK for you to read, AOQ. It looks just one episode into the future.
V jnf orvat n ovg boyvdhr gurer. V rawblrq obgu bs gur cerqvpgvbaf orpnhfr
gurl jrer nyzbfg gurer - rfcrpvnyyl gur frpbaq bar - rfprcg gung Fcvxr
gjvfgf rirelguvat. Fcvxr *qbrf* ghea gb gur Fpbbovrf gb fnir uvz - jura uvf
znpuvangvbaf snyy ncneg. Ohg svefg ur snxrf tbvat gb gurz naq gevrf gb frg
n genc. V guvax vg'f shaal gung lbh gvzrq lbhe cerqvpvgvba rknpgyl ng gur
cbvag gung gur cnggrea punatrq. Fcrnxf jryy bs OgIF'f frafr bs qenzngvp
gvzvat V guvax.
Gur frpbaq cerqvpgvba ernyyl unq zr ynhtuvat. Rira Fcvxr jnf ybbxvat sbe
Nqnz gb erartr ba uvf cebzvfrf, naq ur jnf fgehat nybat. Ohg abg orpnhfr bs
Nqnz. Orpnhfr Fcvxr xrcg fperjvat hc. Jr'yy arire xabj vs Nqnz jbhyq unir
xrcg uvf cebzvfr.
>> Spike nailed the dissension bit with Giles. The easiest of the three
>> because he could stick to the truth.
>
> And a big reason why I could buy Giles' behavior at the end more than I
> could the others. Spike isn't making shit up, he pushes him over the
> edge by playing to things that have built up all year. The other
> reason is that Giles in the last scene is avoidant rather than
> confrontational, as one might expect as a climax to his arc this year.
>
> In contrast, the stuff with the other three tries for the same thing.
> No one is missing the fact that Spike is just the catalyst for issues
> that've been building for awhile to come to the surface. But after a
> year of slow and realistic drifting apart, the "comedy of errors" (as
> you call it) shouting match seems contrived. Again, I don't think the
> Scoobies are like The Beatles because they don't fundamentally hate
> each other. I see the issues they're having, I see the paranoia about
> what the others might think of them, and I don't see it playing out the
> way it does.
But they don't hate each other. Just as they didn't in Dead Man's Party.
(Again, you can read this, AOQ. Just one episode forward.) Naq gurl qba'g
oernx hc. Whfg nf gurl qvqa'g va QZC. Fcvxr unq n pyrire vqrn gung jnf
nyzbfg tbbq rabhtu, ohg cebirq gb or jebat va gur raq. Vg jnfa'g rabhtu gb
oernx gurz hc - whfg rabhtu gb unir na nethzrag.
I realize that the conventional wisdom is that the situation was
inadequately set up through the season, but I really disagree. If anything,
it's been too blatantly set up for my tastes. I think the divergance of
views starts with what I think is way exaggerating the depth of the fight at
the end. Everybody was in a bad mood to begin with, got a little snippy,
and it escalated into a full family squabble. Yes, it got a bit brutal at
times, but that's what family fights do. They know each other's soft spots
too well not to strike home. But families break up harder than that, and
assuming that's the end of the Scoobies gives Spike way more credit than
he's ever earned. Of course the seasonal setup wasn't enough for their
breakup. It was just enough for a squabble.
Remember Fear Itself? When Willow rebelled at Buffy going alone? Willow
didn't just sulk. She got pissed off. That's a specific presage of this
scene, showing both content and tone. See, the other thing that I think
differentiates my viewpoint is that I consider the Scoobies to be
considerably more volatile than others seem to. I think they love each
other, but they also constantly misread each other and hide stuff from each
other and generally create their own havoc. And they will get mad. There's
nothing unatural to me about them blowing up here. It's just this year's
fight. And they needed one. It'd been too long. This is one of the ways
they get each other's attentions because, you know, they suck at
sensitivity.
What's tragic to me about this hangup, (Not just yours, AOQ) is that it
gets in the way of appreciating how beautifully constructed this episode
really is. I love the intricacy of the closing fight. The timing, the
editing, and the acting seem spot on to me. I like how the interlude in the
bathroom with Tara and Anya and the yelling in the background really
emphasizes the feeling of a family fight. And Spike's devious mind at work
is so much fun to watch. (Like the expression on his face as he watches
Tara play with Willow's hair.) And how we're reminded of the parallel
family breakdown within the Initiative. After all, they're rivals more so
than enemies. Who will prove stronger in the end? Stay tuned...
And it's so much fun. <sigh>
OBS
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> Gur frpbaq cerqvpgvba ernyyl unq zr ynhtuvat. Rira Fcvxr jnf ybbxvat sbe
> Nqnz gb erartr ba uvf cebzvfrf, naq ur jnf fgehat nybat. Ohg abg orpnhfr bs
> Nqnz. Orpnhfr Fcvxr xrcg fperjvat hc. Jr'yy arire xabj vs Nqnz jbhyq unir
> xrcg uvf cebzvfr.
Vg jnfa'g fb zhpu gung Fcvxr xrcg fperjvat hc. Vg jnf gung Nqnz xrcg
nqqvat zber pbaqvgvbaf.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-4866F4...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <12796ue...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>
>> Gur frpbaq cerqvpgvba ernyyl unq zr ynhtuvat. Rira Fcvxr jnf ybbxvat sbe
>> Nqnz gb erartr ba uvf cebzvfrf, naq ur jnf fgehat nybat. Ohg abg orpnhfr
>> bs
>> Nqnz. Orpnhfr Fcvxr xrcg fperjvat hc. Jr'yy arire xabj vs Nqnz jbhyq
>> unir
>> xrcg uvf cebzvfr.
>
> Vg jnfa'g fb zhpu gung Fcvxr xrcg fperjvat hc. Vg jnf gung Nqnz xrcg
> nqqvat zber pbaqvgvbaf.
Ur bayl nqqrq trggvat evq bs Ohssl'f sevraqf - nsgre Fcvxr znqr fhpu n fgvax
nobhg gurz. Naq orsber nal bs gur cynl jrag qbja. V guvax gur gnfx jnf
cerggl pyrne. Trg Ohssl vagb gur Vavgvngvir jvgubhg ure sevraqf. Fcvxr
xrcg gelvat gb trg cnvq bss rneyl, ohg ur arire tbg vg qbar.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
I tend to agree with Stephen here.
A recurring prelude to their arguments is a split developing among
the Scoobies, especially between Buffy and the others but being
ignored until something sparks an explosion. The gradual drifting
apart was an argument waiting to happen. Spike just added a little
manipulation to make it happen when he wanted it to happen. And
the reason that the Scoobies were so ready to believe him (apart
from Spike's past record of often being perceptive about such
matters) was that he was telling each of them things that they
already more than half believed.
In short, I thought the argument was both well set up and
believable.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Michael Ikeda
news:1277g13...@news.supernews.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148414210.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Four, Episode 20: "The Yoko Factor"
>> This one doesn't start so well, with the chat between the
>> Dumbass Colonel Guy and his superior, which continues the
>> process of ensuring that the Intiative remain a stock Sinister
>> Soldier Group. It's hard to tell whether the discussion about
>> Riley being central to whatever they're doing will be
>> remembered, although the "connection" between him and Adam
>> which resurfaces at the end might be involved. One bit I'm
>> not fond of is the obsession with the idea that Riley thinks
>> too much; maybe thought wouldn't be valued for a private, but
>> once you become an officer in command of a group of men, I'd
>> imagine intelligence would be a worthwhile attribute. The
>> problem is that he was getting inquisitive about the wrong
>> things, I'd say.
>
> Evidently Colonel Dumbass's job is not to think too much. Aside
> from some general information about the state of affairs within
> the Initiative, we do learn that the big cheeses in charge don't
> know much about Buffy and that Dumbass doesn't believe in her.
> Just a girl.
And speaking of Colonel Dumbass: "It's not my mess".
Yes it is, or it should be. He's in command, it's his mess.
(Not that I don't doubt that there are plenty of officers who would
take the same sort of attitude as the Colonel.)
>> By the way, I am sowing discord."
>
> Heh. Well he was. But most of his actual words were to
> downplay it or change the topic. Other than Giles, which was a
> different play, the targets ran with the idea quite on their own
> and largely ignored Spike.
Precisely. They were already half-thinking the sorts of things
Spike was suggesting, all that was necessary was for someone to say
it out loud.
>> Some dissent doesn't need any outside influence to get sown.
>> After all the talk about trust and openness, Buffy still left
>> out part of the Angel story. That's interesting, and the scene
>> where Xander fills in the blanks is well played.
>
> Buffy left out *two* parts of the Angel story. Buffy didn't
> tell Riley about her sending Angel to Hell either. That might
> be harder for Riley to cope with than the sex part.
But I'm sure that Buffy's learned her lesson and will stop being so
secretive.
At least until the next time...
> So, Giles really is bitter about his situation in life. Xander
> really does feel isolated and not taken seriously. Willow
> really is hyper sensitive about her gay status. Everybody
> really is sensitive to Buffy officiously doing what she feels
> like and discounting them. Everybody really is disconnected
> from each other vulnerable to imagining the worst. And Buffy
> really is let down here. We've spent a season setting this up.
> Why couldn't Spike exploit it?
>
Yes. They were heading for that sort of argument anyway. Spike
just made it happen a little sooner.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I was initially tempted to leap to the defence of TYF, because my reaction
> to it has mellowed over the years. Sure, the everybody turn on Buffy theme
> when conned by Spike is insufficiently supported by what we have seen
> before, and yes, Angel's crossover is the lamest thing until his next one,
> and sure, there is that whole all-men-are-testosterone-laden-morons theme
> .... Actually those are pretty good reasons, I wonder if Danger Mouse is on
> :)
Amuse'd.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> believable.
the split on season four seems to always be
people who were upset about the splintering
and were upset about the protrayal thereof
and those people who were upset about the splintering
and realized the show was intentionally protraying that
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > In contrast, the stuff with the other three tries for the same thing.
> > No one is missing the fact that Spike is just the catalyst for issues
> > that've been building for awhile to come to the surface. But after a
> > year of slow and realistic drifting apart, the "comedy of errors" (as
> > you call it) shouting match seems contrived. Again, I don't think the
> > Scoobies are like The Beatles because they don't fundamentally hate
> > each other. I see the issues they're having, I see the paranoia about
> > what the others might think of them, and I don't see it playing out the
> > way it does.
>
> But they don't hate each other. Just as they didn't in Dead Man's Party.
> (Again, you can read this, AOQ. Just one episode forward.) Naq gurl qba'g
> oernx hc. Whfg nf gurl qvqa'g va QZC. Fcvxr unq n pyrire vqrn gung jnf
> nyzbfg tbbq rabhtu, ohg cebirq gb or jebat va gur raq. Vg jnfa'g rabhtu gb
> oernx gurz hc - whfg rabhtu gb unir na nethzrag.
Uvf vqrn pyrneyl jnfa'g nyy gung pyrire, tvira gung ur fhccbfrqyl unf
guvf vzcerffvir vafvtug vagb jung crbcyr ner guvaxvat. Nalbar jub
xabjf gur tebhc jbhyq xabj gung gurel'er abg tbvat gb fgbc orvat
sevraqf orpnhfr bs fbzrguvat yvxr guvf. Cyhf, vg'f abg npghnyyl n
oybjbss sbe nalguvat, tvira gung gurl qba'g ernyyl frrz gb or va gbb
zhpu bs n qvssrerag cynpr nsgre "Cevzriny" guna gurl jrer orsber "Gur
Lbxb Snpgbe."
[Maybe we should wait for the Prim thread, but it reflects more on my
problems with TYF.]
> I realize that the conventional wisdom is that the situation was
> inadequately set up through the season, but I really disagree. If anything,
> it's been too blatantly set up for my tastes. I think the divergance of
> views starts with what I think is way exaggerating the depth of the fight at
> the end. Everybody was in a bad mood to begin with, got a little snippy,
> and it escalated into a full family squabble. Yes, it got a bit brutal at
> times, but that's what family fights do. They know each other's soft spots
> too well not to strike home. But families break up harder than that, and
> assuming that's the end of the Scoobies gives Spike way more credit than
> he's ever earned. Of course the seasonal setup wasn't enough for their
> breakup. It was just enough for a squabble.
I'm going to be insisting to my dying day here that TYF itself doesn't
support your view. Something like this, among well-written characters,
would a stupid little squabble among friends that they'll be able to
laugh about the next day. Like in "Fear Itself." But the episode
plays it as a big moment of catharsis and threatened severing. The
audience is meant to worry about this, as a potential breakup of
Beatles proportions springing from the deep ongoing issues of the
season. Not buying it.
> What's tragic to me about this hangup, (Not just yours, AOQ) is that it
> gets in the way of appreciating how beautifully constructed this episode
> really is. I love the intricacy of the closing fight. The timing, the
> editing, and the acting seem spot on to me.
As explained in the original review, putting aside any feelings that
the argument is conceptually wrong, I say it's "executionally" wrong
too.
> And it's so much fun. <sigh>
Well, glad someone feels that way. Actually, I'm not, since I'd rather
see the fans united in disdain of the moments I really hate, but such
is life.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> the split on season four seems to always be
>
> people who were upset about the splintering
> and were upset about the protrayal thereof
>
> and those people who were upset about the splintering
> and realized the show was intentionally protraying that
They're not mutually exculsive.
-AOQ
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> And speaking of Colonel Dumbass: "It's not my mess".
His name was McNamara. No need to make up any insulting names for him.
Mike Zeares
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <Bd2dndvXdfF...@rcn.net>,
> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > And speaking of Colonel Dumbass: "It's not my mess".
>
> His name was McNamara. No need to make up any insulting names for him.
It's military tradition to give officers nicknames, often insulting.
My Guard unit had a Captain who tried to take a tank across a creek in
flood and promptly sank it. We called him Captain Snorkel. Not to his
face, of course.
Colonel Dumbass works fine for me. Colonel In-Way-Over-His-Head takes
too long to type.
-- Mike Zeares (since when do we have to show a need to make up
insulting names anyway?)
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> > In article <Bd2dndvXdfF...@rcn.net>,
> > Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > And speaking of Colonel Dumbass: "It's not my mess".
> >
> > His name was McNamara. No need to make up any insulting names for him.
>
> It's military tradition to give officers nicknames, often insulting.
> My Guard unit had a Captain who tried to take a tank across a creek in
> flood and promptly sank it. We called him Captain Snorkel. Not to his
> face, of course.
>
> Colonel Dumbass works fine for me. Colonel In-Way-Over-His-Head takes
> too long to type.
To many members of the US Military just calling him "McNamara" would be
insulting enough.
(Secretary of Defence Robert McNamara is blamed by many for the way the
Vietnam war fought, and lost. He was despised by many in the military of
the time, and since.)
ajs...@aol.com
out of the doofus that shall not be named?
Don't get me wrong, at first I had nothing against the doofus that
shall not be named. A bit boring? Considering Buffy's lifestyle
that's quite possibly a plus.
But the more the doofus that shall not be named started whining after
he became disillusioned with the initiative the more I wanted Spike to
pull out the brakeline of his car or something.
For that matter, am I the only one who was offended that Buffy's
boyfriend thought that she would dump him for Angelus? He thinks the
sex was so good that she'd overlook the nun raping serial killing world
destroying thing? Maybe leave him so sexually exhausted that he can't
manage to walk out of bed?
Buffy should have given him a severe tongue lashing, although I
would have enjoyed her slapping him silly more.
Eric Hunter
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> inadequately set up through the season, but I really disagree. If
>> anything, it's been too blatantly set up for my tastes. I think the
>> depth of the fight at the end. Everybody was in a bad mood to begin
>> with, got a little snippy, and it escalated into a full family
>> squabble. Yes, it got a bit brutal at times, but that's what family
>> fights do. They know each other's soft spots too well not to strike
>> home. But families break up harder than that, and assuming that's
>> the end of the Scoobies gives Spike way more credit than he's ever
>> earned. Of course the seasonal setup wasn't enough for their
>> breakup. It was just enough for a squabble.
>
> I'm going to be insisting to my dying day here that TYF itself doesn't
> support your view. Something like this, among well-written
> characters, would a stupid little squabble among friends that they'll
> be able to laugh about the next day. Like in "Fear Itself." But
> the episode plays it as a big moment of catharsis and threatened
> severing. The audience is meant to worry about this, as a potential
> breakup of Beatles proportions springing from the deep ongoing
> issues of the season. Not buying it.
The Beatles breakup was Earth shaking because it was
The Beatles, not because of the level of animosity.
Paul, George and Ringo worked together afterward,
and Paul and John toyed with taking up Lorne Michaels
offer of scale to bring the band back together on
"Saturday Night Live". But, just as John Hinckley made
The Beatles breakup permanent, so too, could Adam
have done so in Primeval, if Spike hadn't said to Buffy:
Spike (o.s.): Can't ignore valuable information
Cut to Spike.
Spike: just 'cause you two birds fell out, now can you?
It was this comment that clued Buffy in to the fact that
Spike had been the catalyst behind the Scoobie fight,
and it was that fact that allowed her to reform the group
in time. Without that, the Scoobies could have, and
probably would have stayed annoyed with each other
long enough for Adam's plan to have worked, and then
Buffy would be dead, and it would have been a Beatles
breakup.
Eric.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
> So was I the only one who really enjoyed seeing Angel beat the snot
> out of the doofus that shall not be named?
No, I kinda got a kick out of that, myself. Just another little dose of
reality for Riley (who I didn't hate, but wasn't really fond of, either...)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Steve Schaffner
> Kevin wrote:
>
> > Hear, hear -- I agree completely with your review. The contrast with
> > the conflicts in Revelations (also credited to Petrie) is again
> > notable.
>
> Doug Petrie is probably the writer who confuses me the most. He has a
> knack like none of the other regular staff for writing individual
> scenes that really annoy me on a fundamental level. But he's also
> given us cool stuff like "Revelations" and "This Year's Girl."
>
> -AOQ
> ~maybe I should do what the Marti-haters do and insist that Joss must
> have ghostwritten everything I like in a Doug episode~
Or just insist that Marti wrote everything you hate in a Doug episode.
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
Opus the Penguin
> drifter wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> > The stuff with
>> > everyone else, though, is just variations of "hey, [character I
>> > spend no time with] was talking shit about you and saying
>> > exactly what I think you fear. By the way, I am sowing
>> > discord."
>>
>> Have you ever considered re-doing your reviews as parodies of
>> the existing scripts, once you get done?
>
> I have no sense of humor, remember?
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Good one!
Oh ... wait ... you're serious.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
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what riley would say in buffys room
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
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