Brits: Giles' accent in Band Candy?
what name
all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well, Spike.
His accent shifted some... I don't know how to explain it exactly. He sounded
more cheeky, younger, more insolent. So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd like
to know why teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if Giles
now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or university
drilled into him?
Thanks,
Aura
--
Xander: "You have no shame."
Cordelia: "Please. Like shame is something to be proud of??"
meredith
ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) wrote:
> Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when
> Giles got all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and
> more like, well, Spike. His accent shifted some... I don't know how
> to explain it exactly. He sounded more cheeky, younger, more
> insolent. So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd like to know why
> teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if Giles
> now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or
> university drilled into him?
>
> Thanks, Aura
>
Not that this is an answer to your question, but I suspect that the
accent he used in Band Candy is his real accent, since JM has said that
he's been basing his accent on ASH' real one.
--
meredith
"If you want me to leave, you can put your hands
on my hot tight little body and make me." - Spike, IWMTLY
Mary
ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) wrote:
> Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when Giles got
> all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well,
Spike.
I'm not a Brit, but I read a recent interview with ASH in "Eve" magazine
which could very well shed some light on this. Here's the excerpt:
Q: Have you ever camped up your `posh English bloke' image in real
life?
Tony: No, actually, I've always dumbed it down. I went to grammar
school, but my father, who was public school from the age of six,
used to take me to task about my accent and insist I talked properly.
Then I'd go to school and have seven shades of shit kicked out of me
for being a posh git. So I used to adapt, talk normally at home and
then talk like the rest of the kids at school. I still do that, a
bit. It's part of that whole chameleon thing, a basic insecurity
about who you really are.
--
Mary's Photo Album
http://www.maryloye.com
Aethelrede
>Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when Giles
got
>all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well,
Spike.
>His accent shifted some... I don't know how to explain it exactly. He
sounded
>more cheeky, younger, more insolent. So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd
like
>to know why teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if
Giles
>now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or
university
>drilled into him?
I'd say, as a card carrying British Citizen, that Mr Giles' accent was
definitely more, dare I say, "lower class" during most of Band Candy and
more like the one Spike uses, except that back when Spike was William
(Insert Last Name Here) the bloody awful poet he didn't talk that way
because nobody did.
I'd make a guess and say that Rupert (goodness me, but how I hate that
name) was a young man raised to go to Oxford like about 5 generations of his
family before (Cambridge was where "other people" went, at a guess), but he
rebelled and went down-market and revelled with his inferiors and picked up
their accent. And then came to his senses and stopped being "Ripper" and
graduated as a fully paid up Clerk of Oxenford, one Rupert Giles, BA
Who got to boink Joyce, twice, on the hood of a Sunnydale police
car. Way to go, Rupert.
I'd give a lot to boink her once, anywhere, anyhow, any way she wanted
it. Kristine Sutherland is such a totally beautiful woman, and did a
wonderful job as Mrs Summers.
Mad Hamish
wrote:
>Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when Giles got
>all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well, Spike.
>His accent shifted some... I don't know how to explain it exactly. He sounded
>more cheeky, younger, more insolent. So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd like
>to know why teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if Giles
>now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or university
>drilled into him?
>
or whether the teen speak was something that he developed as Ripper
to get more street cred...
--
"Hope is replaced by fear and dreams by survival, most of us get by."
Stuart Adamson 1958-2001
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_l...@bigpond.com
Harry the Horse
news:I8n98.5915$9%6.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I'd say, as a card carrying British Citizen, that Mr Giles' accent was
> definitely more, dare I say, "lower class" during most of Band Candy and
> more like the one Spike uses, except that back when Spike was William
> (Insert Last Name Here) the bloody awful poet he didn't talk that way
> because nobody did.
> I'd make a guess and say that Rupert (goodness me, but how I hate that
> name) was a young man raised to go to Oxford like about 5 generations of
his
> family before (Cambridge was where "other people" went, at a guess), but
he
> rebelled and went down-market and revelled with his inferiors and picked
up
> their accent. And then came to his senses and stopped being "Ripper" and
> graduated as a fully paid up Clerk of Oxenford, one Rupert Giles, BA
>
upbringing, adopted a fake proletarian accent, and then when things got
hairy, returned to his establishment roots and graduated from Oxford.'
FFS, what is a 'Clerk of Oxenford'? I'm sure I never met one.
Dave Wilton
Chaucer reference. The "Clerk of Oxenford" was one of the characters
in "The Canterbury Tales." Modern English translation: Oxford Don
(Professor).
--Dave Wilton
da...@wilton.net
http://www.wordorigins.org
Andrew McColl
meredith wrote:
> In article <20020209141339...@mb-mt.aol.com>,
> ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) wrote:
>
> > Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when
> > Giles got all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and
> > more like, well, Spike. His accent shifted some... I don't know how
> > to explain it exactly. He sounded more cheeky, younger, more
> > insolent. So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd like to know why
> > teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if Giles
> > now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or
> > university drilled into him?
> >
> > Thanks, Aura
Ripper's accent always reminds me of clips I've seen of the Sex Pistols'
Bill Grundy interview in the mid 70s. Since the Pistols' were drunk at the
time, and since Grundy was being a complete jerk, the band exaggerated
their (bad) language (after arguably being goaded into it by Grundy in the
first place), and also exaggerated their working class accents. Shortly
thereafter, such affected 'English working class' accents became
commonplace among mid-to-late 70s middle-class Punks in the UK. Giles'
'Ripper' incarnation would credibly have been part of that scene, and as
for Spike -the Punk thing would seem to have been a big thing for him too
(apart from the Billy Idol/Generation X look, remember Harm burning his
copy of 'Never Mind The Bollocks' around the time of the best fight scene
in any Buffy ep ever?)
So with that rationalization, my own guess is that Giles' manner of speech
is the natural Giles, while the Ripper accent was always an affectation.
Paul Hammond
Harry the Horse <ha...@horse.com> wrote in message
news:101334720...@eos.uk.clara.net...
>
> FFS, what is a 'Clerk of Oxenford'? I'm sure I never met one.
>
A graduate of Oxford University (cf The Caunterbury Tales)
what name
> It's part of that whole chameleon thing, a basic insecurity
>about who you really are.
Awwwwwww!!! I think I'm doubly in love now, with the actor AND the character.
C.M. Chandler
Join the club and take a number. ;)
Catherine Chandler l "Nobody gets a hole in one
StarGazerCMC at aol dot com l their first time at bat."
Philip Chien
ofnon...@aol.comspamsued writes:
>>Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list.
Yankee here - from where we know how to talk right (in Brooklyn!)
> In Band Candy, when Giles got
>all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well, Spike.
>His accent shifted some... I don't know how to explain it exactly. He sounded
>more cheeky, younger, more insolent.
That's Anthony Stewart Head's actual accent in real life. Yes folks -
British folks can do a british accent when they need to!
> So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd like
>to know why teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if Giles
>now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or university
>drilled into him?
Yup. For most of the American public (and much of the rest of the world
world) there are different social qualities associated with British
accents. A very precise London accent is seen as more sophisticated than
a Cockney accent, for example. While a Liverpool accent is seen as being
a rock star's accent. I'm curious as to whether native English people
also have these assumptions, possibly on a subconcious level.
One time I met a five-year-old British girl who spoke with a perfect
London accent. My subconcious mind idly wondered just how long it took
for her to learn such a sophisticated speaking style. Then my concious
mind caught up and in a wry sense of humor I thought to myself that it
probably took exactly five years for her to learn how to speak like that!
So it's not surprising that as a kid Ripper Giles would speak with an
accent that's perceived as more 'rough and tumble' while as an adult
dressed in tweed he would speak in an accent which is more
'sophisticated'.
Same thing in other fields. You hear test pilots with the most ethnic
sounding names speak with a West Virginia accent because of Chuck Yeager.
And I can't count the number of Harvard graduates who picked up a
Har-vhad accent in just four years!
An accent is often the first indication of a person's character, and
therefore how they're perceived. And many people do cultivate a specific
speaking quality - including Rupert Giles.
BTW - as stated many times James Marsters in real life has a natural
Californian sounding voice. He does many different accents (which is
different from imitations). But it was clearly established in "Fool For
Love" that Spike's accent was something he developed when he 'moved up
the food chain' and Angel even comments about how silly it is for Spike
to put on airs.
Philip Chien, KC4YER (at) amsat.org
Earth News - space writer and consultant
my E-mail address is purposely incorrect to avoid SPAM-bots. I will not
accept any unsolicited E-mail or commercial advertisements.
what name
>>Awwwwwww!!! I think I'm doubly in love now, with the actor AND the
>character.
And Catherine said:
>Join the club and take a number. ;)
<g> So he's one of those, eh? Those actors who the fans adore on- and
off-screen? I don't know anything about ASH. Is he as crushable as Giles?
C.M. Chandler
>And Catherine said:
>>Join the club and take a number. ;)
>
><g> So he's one of those, eh? Those actors who the fans adore on- and
>off-screen? I don't know anything about ASH. Is he as crushable as Giles?
Probably even more so. The man giggles. :)
He's quite adorable. Check out some of his sites where he's been talking about
his new show, Manchild. It's a BBC show with a bunch of 50-something men going
through mid-life crisis. Looks funny and sexy, and I'm really wishing the US
had BBC over here.
Aethelrede
Harry the Horse wrote in message <101334720...@eos.uk.clara.net>...
Wow. Who died and made you the big word-counting editor.
How many words are people allowed to use per day?
>FFS, what is a 'Clerk of Oxenford'? I'm sure I never met one.
And not too up on literature or historical references.
Aethelrede
Philip Chien wrote in message ...
>In article <20020209141339...@mb-mt.aol.com> what name,
>ofnon...@aol.comspamsued writes:
>>>Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list.
>
>Yankee here - from where we know how to talk right (in Brooklyn!)
>
>> In Band Candy, when Giles got
>>all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well,
Spike.
>>His accent shifted some... I don't know how to explain it exactly. He
sounded
>>more cheeky, younger, more insolent.
>
>That's Anthony Stewart Head's actual accent in real life. Yes folks -
>British folks can do a british accent when they need to!
>
>> So anyway, if you noticed this, I'd like
>>to know why teen-Giles spoke differently than grown-Giles. I wondered if
Giles
>>now speaks in an "academic" way, something that his prep school or
university
>>drilled into him?
>
>Yup. For most of the American public (and much of the rest of the world
>world) there are different social qualities associated with British
>accents. A very precise London accent is seen as more sophisticated than
>a Cockney accent, for example. While a Liverpool accent is seen as being
>a rock star's accent. I'm curious as to whether native English people
>also have these assumptions, possibly on a subconcious level.
The way you speak is very important in Britain. Some regional accents
have a very low ranking, Irish (North or South) did when I was young: Scots
accents are usually accepted, and several rural accents still carry
overtones of rustic stupidity.
"An Englishman only has to open his mouth to make another Englishman
despise him"
>One time I met a five-year-old British girl who spoke with a perfect
>London accent. My subconcious mind idly wondered just how long it took
>for her to learn such a sophisticated speaking style. Then my concious
>mind caught up and in a wry sense of humor I thought to myself that it
>probably took exactly five years for her to learn how to speak like that!
>
>So it's not surprising that as a kid Ripper Giles would speak with an
>accent that's perceived as more 'rough and tumble' while as an adult
>dressed in tweed he would speak in an accent which is more
>'sophisticated'.
>
>Same thing in other fields. You hear test pilots with the most ethnic
>sounding names speak with a West Virginia accent because of Chuck Yeager.
> And I can't count the number of Harvard graduates who picked up a
>Har-vhad accent in just four years!
>
>An accent is often the first indication of a person's character, and
>therefore how they're perceived. And many people do cultivate a specific
>speaking quality - including Rupert Giles.
it depends on whether they speak they way everyone in their
neighbourhood speaks, how everyone in their social class speaks (that
"London Accent"), or in a manner hat expresses a desire for upward or other
movement. Lots of people brought up to speak like Giles are going over to a
more Spike-like way of speech , for reasons I think are stupid.
Paul Hammond
C.M. Chandler <starga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020211212048...@mb-fj.aol.com...
> ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) said:
>
> >And Catherine said:
> >>Join the club and take a number. ;)
> >
> ><g> So he's one of those, eh? Those actors who the fans adore on- and
> >off-screen? I don't know anything about ASH. Is he as crushable as Giles?
>
> Probably even more so. The man giggles. :)
>
> He's quite adorable. Check out some of his sites where he's been talking
about
> his new show, Manchild. It's a BBC show with a bunch of 50-something men
going
> through mid-life crisis. Looks funny and sexy, and I'm really wishing the
US
> had BBC over here.
He's on that? Well, I'll be making the effort to watch it then.
Nigel Havers, one of the other stars, was promoting it on a chat
show yesterday - the hosts tried to sell it as a male, middle-aged
and British version of "Sex and the City" - at that stage, I thought
it looked good, but not worth putting myself out for.
Incidentally, the clip showed Nigel Havers talking to the camera
as he received a massage - so for ASH fans there might be a
chance of seeing some flesh (sorry, didn't mean to *rub it in*!)
Paul
C.M. Chandler
>as he received a massage - so for ASH fans there might be a
>chance of seeing some flesh (sorry, didn't mean to *rub it in*!)
>
Oh, I'd say there's a definite possibility. Given the promo for the first
episode.... (ASH plays James, btw)
Promo for Manchild below:
<<New comedy starring Nigel Havers and Anthony Head, about a group of
middle-aged men determined to live life to the full. An embarrassing climax to
a date cause James to seek medical help. >>
If the clip they showed on one of the talk shows ASH was on the other day is
any indication, you can take the word "climax" however you want. It's gonna be
quite naughty. :)
what name
>more Spike-like way of speech , for reasons I think are stupid.
What're the reasons?
And BTW... um... I want to ask you something, but I'm afraid it'll come out
wrong on USENET, so please don't think I'm trying to be offensive. About the
thing in England with making assumptions based on how other Englishmen talk. It
doesn't seem very . . . nice. I mean, Americans and America are really big on
not discriminating based on appearance, accent, national origin, etc. Sure, on
a TV show when they want a character to appear "simple," they have a southern
drawl. But no one in real life honestly believes that everyone who speaks with
a southern accent is a certain type of person. Ok, maybe some do, but it's not
acceptable to think like that.
And something about Europe in general...I traveled there when I was 16 with a
school group, and the chaperones kept telling us not to act like Americans. I
know that Americans are noisier than Brits or most Europeans, and there's a
time and a place for everything-- no goofing around in Saint Mark's Cathedral.
That's fine. But we got looks for getting a little loud just hanging around the
hotels. Are we really that bad? In the States, everyone talks about tolerating
customs of people who come from other countries. It's like this ideal we try
to live up to, even though not everyone does it, and no one does it all the
time. And it has its own can of worms: lots of sensitive Americans can't talk
about racial differences *at*all* without feeling guilty. I guess what I'm
asking is, are Americans the only people who think about "tolerance" and stuff?
And if so, are we on the wrong path here trying to find some common ground in
an extremely mixed society? I don't want to sound rude, and I'm sorry if I
come off as haughty. I don't mean to be.
C.M. Chandler
>wrong on USENET, so please don't think I'm trying to be offensive. About the
>thing in England with making assumptions based on how other Englishmen talk.
>It
>doesn't seem very . . . nice. I mean, Americans and America are really big
>on
>not discriminating based on appearance, accent, national origin, etc. Sure,
>on
>a TV show when they want a character to appear "simple," they have a southern
>drawl. But no one in real life honestly believes that everyone who speaks
>with
>a southern accent is a certain type of person. Ok, maybe some do, but it's
>not
>acceptable to think like that.
As someone who lives in the deep south (the southern part of Alabama), trust me
when I say there are a lot more Americans out there who do think it's
acceptable than people would like to admit. I've had to face the discrimination
of being a southerner my entire life. I've had people ask me if Alabama has
paved roads and running water, if we still have slaves and if I know how to
read. The worst part is that they usually aren't teasing -- they actually
believe that circumstances like that are the norm.
Anyway, it's good that *you* don't think that way, but it's definitely not as
diminished in the U.S. as you would think.
Gert Wallage
> it'll come out wrong on USENET, so please don't think
> I'm trying to be offensive. About the thing in England with
> making assumptions based on how other Englishmen talk. It
> doesn't seem very . . . nice. I mean, Americans and America
> are really big on not discriminating based on appearance,
> accent, national origin, etc. Sure, on a TV show when they
> want a character to appear "simple," they have a southern
> drawl. But no one in real life honestly believes that everyone
> who speaks with a southern accent is a certain type of person.
To generalize very, very broadly about Britain and the "accent issue" ...
until relatively recently, if you were British, your accent was a dead
giveaway as to which class you came from. Regional accents were frowned
upon, not so much because they were regional per se, but because if you had
one, it meant that it hadn't been schooled out of you. The educated upper
classes, regardless of which part of the country they came from, tended to
speak with the same accent. (Give a listen to Queen Elizabeth sometime and
you'll get an idea of the preferred accent for the aristocracy. <shudder>)
More recently (and here Aethelrede may want to correct me!), accents have
come to be more associated with education than with class, although of
course both education and class are still very closely linked. For
example, because certain areas of the country are known for being primarily
rural/agricultural, and therefore post-secondary education is pursued by
fewer people, those areas are thought of as "uneducated" and therefore you
get people assuming that you're a "yokel" if you speak in those accents.
For example, my husband's native speech is in a beautiful North Devonian
accent, but because of the prejudices associated with West Country accents,
and because he trained to be a schoolteacher, he tends to speak in the RP
(received pronunciation) accent that he learned at grammar school. Such a
pity, too, because frankly the Devonian accent is much more appealing.
Actually, I'm not convinced that Americans don't share similar speech
prejudices. How many strong regional accents do you hear on American
national news programs, for example? Heard any "hillybilly" accents lately
in a non-comic context? It doesn't take too much TV-watching to learn
which accents are and aren't well regarded in America.
> And something about Europe in general...I traveled there when
> I was 16 with a school group, and the chaperones kept telling
> us not to act like Americans. I know that Americans are noisier
> than Brits or most Europeans, and there's a time and a place
> for everything-- no goofing around in Saint Mark's Cathedral.
> That's fine. But we got looks for getting a little loud just hanging
> around the hotels. Are we really that bad?
I don't know what your school group were doing, so it's impossible to say
exactly what behaviour prompted the "looks" you're mentioning. But you
have to remember that the English will tend to evaluate behaviour based on
what's normal to them. If English kids behave in a way that's considered
yobbish, then foreign kids behaving in that way will be assumed to be
yobbish too. So, "when in Rome..."
Gert
Laura Geyer
> Actually, I'm not convinced that Americans don't share similar speech
> prejudices. How many strong regional accents do you hear on American
> national news programs, for example? Heard any "hillybilly" accents lately
> in a non-comic context? It doesn't take too much TV-watching to learn
> which accents are and aren't well regarded in America.
I think the original poster was being a bit naive. Yes there is a lot of
emphasis in the schools here to treat everyone the same regardless of
background, but to say that snobbery and prejudice has been wiped out is a
bit silly. Just ask anyone who grew up in the south east.
Americans don't have quite as many highly localized accents as there are
in the UK, but we do have them. I've worked long and hard to lose my
Philadelphia accent because frankly, it sounds irritating and, well,
stupid (I will consider it lost on the day that I can unconsciously say
the word "water" with out the U and the D). I had a roommate in college
who spoke in a different accent depending on which member of her family
she was speaking to: the slightly-over-pronounced-attempting-to-be-
accent-less accent that she used in class or with professors, the "I've
never been more than five miles away from Flatbush" accent when talking
to her Father, the upscale Manhatenite when talking to her sister,
LonGisland when talking to her Mother...
Like you pointed out in the UK, I've noticed a link to education, but
beyond the really obvious links (certain "low-class" accents also
incorporate dialects that are, compared to more "acceptable" accents,
chock full of bad grammar and slang) I think it's at least partially
because the more education you have the more highly mobile you tend to be.
I hang out with a lot of academics. We tend to be globe trotters since
you go where the jobs are. Add to that the fact that Universities tend
to have people from all over concentrated in a small area, you're hard
pressed to find a strong regional accent among us.
Cheers,
Laura
--
I think I speak for all of us when I say Huh?
--Buffy
Arnold Kim
what name <ofnon...@aol.comspamsued> wrote in message
news:20020212215512...@mb-mg.aol.com...
> >Lots of people brought up to speak like Giles are going over to a
> >more Spike-like way of speech , for reasons I think are stupid.
>
> What're the reasons?
>
> And BTW... um... I want to ask you something, but I'm afraid it'll come
out
> wrong on USENET, so please don't think I'm trying to be offensive. About
the
> thing in England with making assumptions based on how other Englishmen
talk. It
> doesn't seem very . . . nice. I mean, Americans and America are really
big on
> not discriminating based on appearance, accent, national origin, etc.
Sure, on
> a TV show when they want a character to appear "simple," they have a
southern
> drawl. But no one in real life honestly believes that everyone who speaks
with
> a southern accent is a certain type of person. Ok, maybe some do, but
it's not
> acceptable to think like that.
It's a lot more prevalent than you think. New York and Southern accents,
for instance, still carry negative connotations, particularly about
intelligence. I know that around here in the New York area there are
actually classes offered that teach you to lose your Brooklyn accent.
> And something about Europe in general...I traveled there when I was 16
with a
> school group, and the chaperones kept telling us not to act like
Americans. I
> know that Americans are noisier than Brits or most Europeans, and there's
a
> time and a place for everything-- no goofing around in Saint Mark's
Cathedral.
> That's fine. But we got looks for getting a little loud just hanging
around the
> hotels. Are we really that bad? In the States, everyone talks about
tolerating
> customs of people who come from other countries. It's like this ideal we
try
> to live up to, even though not everyone does it, and no one does it all
the
> time. And it has its own can of worms: lots of sensitive Americans can't
talk
> about racial differences *at*all* without feeling guilty. I guess what I'm
> asking is, are Americans the only people who think about "tolerance" and
stuff?
I think we have to think more about it, if only for the reason that we're
probably the most ethnically diverse nation in the world. Most other
countries are predominantly one ethnic group. It wouldn't be quite as much
of an issue if we were all WASPs.
Arnold Kim
pendell
>
> To generalize very, very broadly about Britain and the "accent issue" ...
> until relatively recently, if you were British, your accent was a dead
> giveaway as to which class you came from. Regional accents were frowned
> upon, not so much because they were regional per se, but because if you had
> one, it meant that it hadn't been schooled out of you.
>
> Gert
Brings up an interesting question ..
What does a "standard American" accent sound like to British ears
(think the one the anchors have on CNN and other news shows)?
Does it sound like a particular regional dialect? Or does it stand by
itself? Does it imply a given class (besides "f*ing tourist")?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Dave Paisley
Mary wrote:
>
> In article <20020209141339...@mb-mt.aol.com>,
> ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) wrote:
>
> > Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when Giles got
> > all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well,
> Spike.
>
> I'm not a Brit, but I read a recent interview with ASH in "Eve" magazine
> which could very well shed some light on this. Here's the excerpt:
>
> Q: Have you ever camped up your `posh English bloke' image in real
> life?
>
> Tony: No, actually, I've always dumbed it down. I went to grammar
> school, but my father, who was public school from the age of six,
And non-Brits please note that in Britain, "public school" really means
"hoity-toity private school".
Grammar school was (and whatever remnants there are of it now) an
academically upper level school run as part of the state system.
So even though Grammar school may sound posh, it's nowhere near the
level of a public school. I can only imagine how awful it would be to
take an upper-crust public school accent to a more proletarian grammar
school.
> used to take me to task about my accent and insist I talked properly.
> Then I'd go to school and have seven shades of shit kicked out of me
> for being a posh git. So I used to adapt, talk normally at home and
> then talk like the rest of the kids at school. I still do that, a
> bit. It's part of that whole chameleon thing, a basic insecurity
> about who you really are.
Yep. learn how to blend in. It's a useful skill.
dave
Dave Paisley
"C.M. Chandler" wrote:
>
> >And BTW... um... I want to ask you something, but I'm afraid it'll come out
> >wrong on USENET, so please don't think I'm trying to be offensive. About the
> >thing in England with making assumptions based on how other Englishmen talk.
> >It
> >doesn't seem very . . . nice. I mean, Americans and America are really big
> >on
> >not discriminating based on appearance, accent, national origin, etc. Sure,
> >on
> >a TV show when they want a character to appear "simple," they have a southern
> >drawl. But no one in real life honestly believes that everyone who speaks
> >with
> >a southern accent is a certain type of person. Ok, maybe some do, but it's
> >not
> >acceptable to think like that.
>
> As someone who lives in the deep south (the southern part of Alabama), trust me
> when I say there are a lot more Americans out there who do think it's
> acceptable than people would like to admit. I've had to face the discrimination
> of being a southerner my entire life. I've had people ask me if Alabama has
> paved roads and running water, if we still have slaves and if I know how to
> read. The worst part is that they usually aren't teasing -- they actually
> believe that circumstances like that are the norm.
Blame it on the Dukes of Hazard ;-)
> Anyway, it's good that *you* don't think that way, but it's definitely not as
> diminished in the U.S. as you would think.
When I moved to North America (from England) in the early 80s, the two
biggest US shows in England were the Dukes of Hazard and Dallas. Which
one were we supposed to believe was real? :-D
dave
Arnold Kim
pendell <pen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2df7cf31.02021...@posting.google.com...
Well, I had an English professor (who was actually from England) last year
who jokingly tried to imitate an "American" accent, and one thing I noticed
was that he made the "a" sound in words like "had" overwhelmingly nasal, to
the point where it sounded like a caricature.
Of course, the Brits on the newsgroup could probably speak better about this
than I can.
Arnold Kim
Aethelrede
I don't know that's necessarily true: I caught some shit in primary
school (UK equivalent of grade school), which was in a pretty mean area of
London. but I got to go to a grammar school, where the way I normally spoke
was accepted. And after the time someone threw a punch at me and I threw
him over my shoulder into a large muddy puddle nobody tried it again. Very
few people in the UK knew much about Judo then, so my iota of knowledge
scared the hell out of them.
But is true beyond all denial that the way you speak in the UK is a
major social marker, unless you have money and are wearing a really well cut
suit and know all sorts of important people and are recognised in the right
restaurants and clubs. Then you're either a labour politician, a crook, a
bent copper or Michael Caine.
Dave Paisley
Aethelrede wrote:
>
> Dave Paisley wrote
> >
> >Mary wrote:
> >>
> >> ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when Giles got
> >> > all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like, well,
> >> Spike.
> >>
> >> I'm not a Brit, but I read a recent interview with ASH in "Eve" magazine
> >> which could very well shed some light on this. Here's the excerpt:
> >>
> >> Q: Have you ever camped up your `posh English bloke' image in real
> >> life?
> >>
> >> Tony: No, actually, I've always dumbed it down. I went to grammar
> >> school, but my father, who was public school from the age of six,
> >
> >
> >And non-Brits please note that in Britain, "public school" really means
> >"hoity-toity private school".
> >
> >Grammar school was (and whatever remnants there are of it now) an
> >academically upper level school run as part of the state system.
> >
> >So even though Grammar school may sound posh, it's nowhere near the
> >level of a public school. I can only imagine how awful it would be to
> >take an upper-crust public school accent to a more proletarian grammar
> >school.
Note: While here I may refer to accents as being middle/working/upper
class, it's really a combination of social status and regional dialect
that determines where an accent fits in the social scheme of things. The
North is generally assumed to be working class. The Southeast is
generally upper class, the rest can vary quite a bit. In any region, the
middle class population (of which there are many sub-strata) will be
looking to smooth out any rougher "working class" edges to their accents
and is always at least subconsciously looking to move up to the next
level.
People in the UK are much more likely to label themselves, and confine
themselves to their own stratum of society - they "know their place."
That's why it can be hard for the first generation in a family that
breaks the mo(u)ld - it's seen as a betrayal of the family roots. The
first generation to have a child go to college, for instance, would
often be labeled by the older generations as "too smart for us now" with
a certain amount of resentment.
All of this is also true in the US, but in a much less intense way.
> >> used to take me to task about my accent and insist I talked properly.
> >> Then I'd go to school and have seven shades of shit kicked out of me
> >> for being a posh git. So I used to adapt, talk normally at home and
> >> then talk like the rest of the kids at school. I still do that, a
> >> bit. It's part of that whole chameleon thing, a basic insecurity
> >> about who you really are.
>
> I don't know that's necessarily true: I caught some shit in primary
> school (UK equivalent of grade school), which was in a pretty mean area of
> London.
I'm guessing you came from a "middle class" place then, and moved to a
rougher "working class" place in Elementary school where your "middle
class" accent came across as "putting on airs". Or it could just be the
pack mentality picking on the newcomer.
> but I got to go to a grammar school, where the way I normally spoke
> was accepted.
Which makes sense - your "middle class" accent would fit right in with
grammar school.
> And after the time someone threw a punch at me and I threw
> him over my shoulder into a large muddy puddle nobody tried it again. Very
> few people in the UK knew much about Judo then, so my iota of knowledge
> scared the hell out of them.
Sounds like you passed the test ;-)
> But is true beyond all denial that the way you speak in the UK is a
> major social marker, unless you have money and are wearing a really well cut
> suit and know all sorts of important people and are recognised in the right
> restaurants and clubs. Then you're either a labour politician, a crook, a
> bent copper or Michael Caine.
Even if you have money, etc., the "real" upper crust *knows* you're a
social climber (because you didn't use the right fork, etc...) and will
treat you accordingly (i.e. usually like a piece of dog crap that just
attached itself to their shiny new shoes.)
It's all fun stuff... I don't miss the place at all ;-)
dave
Dave Paisley
Arnold Kim wrote:
>
> pendell <pen...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Gert Wallage" <gwal...@telus.com.net> wrote
> > >
> > > To generalize very, very broadly about Britain and the "accent issue"
> ...
> > > until relatively recently, if you were British, your accent was a dead
> > > giveaway as to which class you came from. Regional accents were frowned
> > > upon, not so much because they were regional per se, but because if you had
> > > one, it meant that it hadn't been schooled out of you.
> > [snip]
> > >
> > > Gert
> >
> > Brings up an interesting question ..
> >
> > What does a "standard American" accent sound like to British ears
> > (think the one the anchors have on CNN and other news shows)?
Living in WA, the accent here is fairly neutral. I've lived in Philly,
and that's pretty conspicuous. We can't even go by the Evening news
anchor test because one of those is Canadian.
> > Does it sound like a particular regional dialect? Or does it stand by
> > itself? Does it imply a given class (besides "f*ing tourist")?
It's more idiom than anything else. I still sound British to Americans
but American to Brits (even my family!)
That's because I use American idiom, but speak with a (still mostly)
British accent (watered down and refined Geordie for those that know or
care)
> Well, I had an English professor (who was actually from England) last year
> who jokingly tried to imitate an "American" accent, and one thing I noticed
> was that he made the "a" sound in words like "had" overwhelmingly nasal, to
> the point where it sounded like a caricature.
There are several sounds I can't or won't change, one of them being the
pronunciation of "half". To me it's still haaah-f, not haf or, even
worse, heeaaf, which is how the American pronunciation sounds to me.
And how Americans can tell the difference between Don and Dawn beats me.
And pen and pin.
And there's you nasal vowel sound. To me, most Americans say the same
sound for pen and pin and it's a weird cross (ha!) between the two. Only
the context helps, but if you're putting a notice up on a board and
someone asks me to pass the pe/in, I'm usually at a loss to figure out
what they want. Do they want to write something or stick something to
the board?
> Of course, the Brits on the newsgroup could probably speak better about this
> than I can.
Being one (a Brit) who has now lived in Canada and the US for 20 years,
I think I can speak to the issue ;-)
First, I'd say that when the average non-traveled Brit thinks of an
American accent it will usually be something like a Texan/cowboy accent.
So when it comes to attempting to imitate an American accent it will
usually come out as some variant on a Texan drawl. Maybe it's because of
all those 1930s and 40s Westerns, and the fact that it's very
identifiable and easy to caricature.
The reverse effect is that of Americans thinking that a British accent
is typically the very posh BBC announcer accent.
I think any ethnic group attempting to imitate some other ethnic group
inevitably starts off with an over the top caricature. Subtlety comes
later.
Being from the northeast of England, my original accent was almost
unintelligible even in other parts of England, so it's changed over the
years. Even now, most Americans guess that I'm Australian because they
know I'm not American, but they can't believe that I'm British because I
don't fit the stereotypical BBC voice they expect. Giles, OTOH, is
exactly that, thereby reinforcing the stereotype.
Having just started watching Buffy, (1st season DVD, FX and the new
episodes - it's tough keeping three eras together in my head), I was
initially impressed with James Marsters "Billy Idol" voice/accent, but
it only works in short chunks. I was less impressed in the second Spike
ep that I saw. Still, it's good enough to not be a distraction. (Unlike
Dr. Zhivago, where most of the Russians speak with very regional British
accents... "Eh up, Vassily, where's tha goin' then?" - yecch... can't
get past that.)
dave
Kate Collins
>
>
> Aethelrede wrote:
>
> snip
>
> People in the UK are much more likely to label themselves, and confine
> themselves to their own stratum of society - they "know their place."
> That's why it can be hard for the first generation in a family that
> breaks the mo(u)ld - it's seen as a betrayal of the family roots. The
> first generation to have a child go to college, for instance, would
> often be labeled by the older generations as "too smart for us now"
> with a certain amount of resentment.
>
> All of this is also true in the US, but in a much less intense way.
Actually, I would have to argue this point. The US is extremely varied
in attitudes as well as cultures. In the culture in which I was reared,
each generation actually PUSHED the next into better education, etc.
In many respects, part of our heritage is that one is judged on one's own
merits and accomplishments more than anything else. While this is not
ALWAYS true, it is more the rule than the exception.
For instance, in the South, we have the concept of "trash". This has
nothing to do with someone's socio-economic level and everything to do
with their behaviour. Evander Holyfield is something of a hero while
Mike Tyson is considered, quite frankly, trashy.
>
>> But is true beyond all denial that the way you speak in the UK is
>> a
>> major social marker, unless you have money and are wearing a really
>> well cut suit and know all sorts of important people and are
>> recognised in the right restaurants and clubs. Then you're either a
>> labour politician, a crook, a bent copper or Michael Caine.
>
> Even if you have money, etc., the "real" upper crust *knows* you're a
> social climber (because you didn't use the right fork, etc...) and
> will treat you accordingly (i.e. usually like a piece of dog crap that
> just attached itself to their shiny new shoes.)
I find that in certain sections of the US, money is more of a cultural
marker than in others.
>
> It's all fun stuff... I don't miss the place at all ;-)
>
> dave
>
--
-K-----
"I am Scylla, the Rock. At least on my good days."
Dave Paisley
>
> Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > Aethelrede wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> > People in the UK are much more likely to label themselves, and confine
> > themselves to their own stratum of society - they "know their place."
> > That's why it can be hard for the first generation in a family that
> > breaks the mo(u)ld - it's seen as a betrayal of the family roots. The
> > first generation to have a child go to college, for instance, would
> > often be labeled by the older generations as "too smart for us now"
> > with a certain amount of resentment.
> >
> > All of this is also true in the US, but in a much less intense way.
>
> Actually, I would have to argue this point. The US is extremely varied
> in attitudes as well as cultures. In the culture in which I was reared,
> each generation actually PUSHED the next into better education, etc.
That's a typical middle class trait. The middle class has always
sacrificed for the next generation to have better opportunities. In many
ways, the US doesn't have much of a true working class. Even the
steelworker union types (who you might think would be true working
class) behave in a more middle class fashion than anything else. They're
more likely to invest and save, send their kids to college (or at least
want them to go) than their counterparts in the UK.
When I said that class stuff in the US also holds true, but watered
down, I believe the really major difference is the almost total lack of
a UK-style working class.
> In many respects, part of our heritage is that one is judged on one's own
> merits and accomplishments more than anything else. While this is not
> ALWAYS true, it is more the rule than the exception.
>
> For instance, in the South, we have the concept of "trash". This has
> nothing to do with someone's socio-economic level and everything to do
> with their behaviour. Evander Holyfield is something of a hero while
> Mike Tyson is considered, quite frankly, trashy.
The US is less of a meritocracy than most people think, but it's still
more of one than anywhere else.
And the lowest rung on the social ladder seems to be "trash", which is
anything but a "working" class.
> >> But is true beyond all denial that the way you speak in the UK is a
> >> major social marker, unless you have money and are wearing a really
> >> well cut suit and know all sorts of important people and are
> >> recognised in the right restaurants and clubs. Then you're either a
> >> labour politician, a crook, a bent copper or Michael Caine.
> >
> > Even if you have money, etc., the "real" upper crust *knows* you're a
> > social climber (because you didn't use the right fork, etc...) and
> > will treat you accordingly (i.e. usually like a piece of dog crap that
> > just attached itself to their shiny new shoes.)
>
> I find that in certain sections of the US, money is more of a cultural
> marker than in others.
Money is *the* cultural marker. If you have enough money here, nothing
else matters.
And there's not a lot wrong with that. ;-)
dave
Pixie Dust
news:3C6BD277...@yahoo.com...
> And how Americans can tell the difference between Don and Dawn beats me.
>
> And pen and pin.
The vowel sounds are different. You can feel the difference in the shapes
your mouth, lips, and jaws make.
> First, I'd say that when the average non-traveled Brit thinks of an
> American accent it will usually be something like a Texan/cowboy accent.
> So when it comes to attempting to imitate an American accent it will
> usually come out as some variant on a Texan drawl. Maybe it's because of
> all those 1930s and 40s Westerns, and the fact that it's very
> identifiable and easy to caricature.
Yes, and annoying to listen to the caricature by certain British actors! :)
It comes across as bigotry in the sense that they seem to have never
bothered to listen to the differences among real Americans.
Pixie Dust
> > >Mary wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ofnon...@aol.comspamsued (what name) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi. I'm asking this Q to any Brit on the list. In Band Candy, when
Giles got
> > >> > all teenagery, he started talking less like himself and more like,
well,
> > >> Spike.
I posted on this before; glad the topic finally took off. It seemed to me
that anyone wanting to sounded "dan gerous and edgy" had to affect a more
lower class accent. Lots of people here were making up stories that Giles
was really of a lower class and got classed up at university, but was that
ever established in the show?
Even more to the point, Spike seemed to come from a drawing-room life and
yet got all street punkish as a vamp, as if only that kind of accent would
give his character the right attitude. It seems affectatious to me when
people change accents like that, but maybe they are just responding to other
people's shallow desires for a certain stereotypical image.
> > >> I'm not a Brit, but I read a recent interview with ASH in "Eve"
magazine
> > >> which could very well shed some light on this. Here's the excerpt:
> > >>
> > >> Q: Have you ever camped up your `posh English bloke' image in real
> > >> life?
> > >>
> > >> Tony: No, actually, I've always dumbed it down.
I read some post here claiming that his accent was really the opposite,
lower class, and that the JM imitated his vamp accent from ASH's really one.
Which is the real story, do you think?
> Note: While here I may refer to accents as being middle/working/upper
> class, it's really a combination of social status and regional dialect
> that determines where an accent fits in the social scheme of things. The
> North is generally assumed to be working class. The Southeast is
> generally upper class, the rest can vary quite a bit. In any region, the
> middle class population (of which there are many sub-strata) will be
> looking to smooth out any rougher "working class" edges to their accents
> and is always at least subconsciously looking to move up to the next
> level.
That fascinates me. I can't pick out all the accents, being an American who
has never been to Europe, but I do wonder when I see someone like Jamie
what's-his-name from The Naked Chef show. He seemd what we would call upper
middle class, dad a successful business owner with a very nice house in the
country, sends his kid to France for cooking school and the kid makes it big
in the city.
And what about the engineer on the new Star Trek? He was featured on the
latest Enterprise ep. and I felt his accent, if not his actual voice, was
very similar to some of the vocal talent in the computer game called BAlck
and White. Anyone know about that? Those accents sound similar, but I
wouldn't know how to place them on your demographic continuum.
> often be labeled by the older generations as "too smart for us now" with
> a certain amount of resentment.
Smart people are dragged down by the masses here, too, "masses" meaning
schoolmates, neighbors, coworkers, etc. I doubt it is milder than what you
go through, just more insidious. Having lived in the South I can vouch that
the more codified societies may seem more repressive, but obvious social
institutions are easier to rebel against than one-on-one oppression.
Dave Paisley
Pixie Dust wrote:
>
> "Dave Paisley" <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > And how Americans can tell the difference between Don and Dawn beats me.
> >
> > And pen and pin.
>
> The vowel sounds are different. You can feel the difference in the shapes
> your mouth, lips, and jaws make.
Yeah, but my ears can't detect your muscle state :-)
> > First, I'd say that when the average non-traveled Brit thinks of an
> > American accent it will usually be something like a Texan/cowboy accent.
> > So when it comes to attempting to imitate an American accent it will
> > usually come out as some variant on a Texan drawl. Maybe it's because of
> > all those 1930s and 40s Westerns, and the fact that it's very
> > identifiable and easy to caricature.
>
> Yes, and annoying to listen to the caricature by certain British actors! :)
> It comes across as bigotry in the sense that they seem to have never
> bothered to listen to the differences among real Americans.
Good point.
I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
Case in point: Ben Kingsley in Sneakers.
It also pisses me off when Brits say that Americans have no sense of
humo(u)r. They say American humor is too slapsticky - not at all subtle.
And that from the country that spawned Benny Hill...
dave
Pixie Dust
news:KhTa8.3380$jb4.2366819499@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> And what about the engineer on the new Star Trek? He was featured on the
> latest Enterprise ep. and I felt his accent, if not his actual voice, was
> very similar to some of the vocal talent in the computer game called BAlck
> and White. Anyone know about that? Those accents sound similar, but I
> wouldn't know how to place them on your demographic continuum.
Sorry it seems like I'm replying to my own post, but how else would you edit
a ng post? I meant the *weapons specialist*. That actor, btw, was in a
Buffy ep., the one about her 18th birthday trial. Did anyone else notice
that?
Cheers :)
Pixie Dust
> I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
>
> Case in point: Ben Kingsley in Sneakers.
Or Emma Thompson. Those are supposed to be world-class actors, and even
they aren't getting it!
In the opposite direction, how did you feel about Gyneth Paltrow's accent in
Shakespeare in Love? I would ask about what's-her-name in Bridget Jones'
Dairy, but even to me that one sounded weird.
> It also pisses me off when Brits say that Americans have no sense of
> humo(u)r. They say American humor is too slapsticky - not at all subtle.
> And that from the country that spawned Benny Hill...
No kidding. We have many varied types of humor, some very sophisticated.
That stereotype must have also come from people just repeating a prejudice
without bothering to check it out (and yet import our TV shows -- I believe
Frasier is quite popular!). I do know that people trying to live in another
country, esp. when trying to speak another language, have the most trouble
understanding humor.
morte...@yahoo.com
> Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3C6BCA68...@yahoo.com:
>
> >
> >
> > Aethelrede wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> > People in the UK are much more likely to label themselves, and confine
> > themselves to their own stratum of society - they "know their place."
> > That's why it can be hard for the first generation in a family that
> > breaks the mo(u)ld - it's seen as a betrayal of the family roots. The
> > first generation to have a child go to college, for instance, would
> > often be labeled by the older generations as "too smart for us now"
> > with a certain amount of resentment.
> >
> > All of this is also true in the US, but in a much less intense way.
>
> Actually, I would have to argue this point. The US is extremely varied
> in attitudes as well as cultures. In the culture in which I was reared,
> each generation actually PUSHED the next into better education, etc.
>
> In many respects, part of our heritage is that one is judged on one's own
> merits and accomplishments more than anything else. While this is not
> ALWAYS true, it is more the rule than the exception.
>
> For instance, in the South, we have the concept of "trash". This has
> nothing to do with someone's socio-economic level and everything to do
> with their behaviour. Evander Holyfield is something of a hero while
> Mike Tyson is considered, quite frankly, trashy.
I think it's fair to say it exists to a degree here as well, for
instance (and I'm not intending to start a political debate), both
Gore and Bush were Ivy-League educated scions of New England
(orginially) political dynasties, but I think Bush specifically played
up the "C Student" reputation to give him more of a 'common man' rep
and less of a 'snobby/too good for us' rep that Gore sort of got.
And I think most college-educated parents would, at the very least, be
fairly disappointed if their child decided not pursue a college
education.
As for people being judged on their 'own merits and accomplishments',
that's something of a fallacy, in the fact that ones background often
is a huge factor in what one achieves in life: the majority of people
in the US generally stay in the socio-economic class they were born
into.
> >
> >> But is true beyond all denial that the way you speak in the UK is
> >> a
> >> major social marker, unless you have money and are wearing a really
> >> well cut suit and know all sorts of important people and are
> >> recognised in the right restaurants and clubs. Then you're either a
> >> labour politician, a crook, a bent copper or Michael Caine.
> >
> > Even if you have money, etc., the "real" upper crust *knows* you're a
> > social climber (because you didn't use the right fork, etc...) and
> > will treat you accordingly (i.e. usually like a piece of dog crap that
> > just attached itself to their shiny new shoes.)
>
> I find that in certain sections of the US, money is more of a cultural
> marker than in others.
I'll agree there, it does seem that disdain of 'nouveau-riche' is only
limited to certain communities here.
Ted
>
> What does a "standard American" accent sound like to British ears
> (think the one the anchors have on CNN and other news shows)?
>
> Does it sound like a particular regional dialect? Or does it stand by
> itself? Does it imply a given class (besides "f*ing tourist")?
This brings back some memories:
I was an exchange student in the UK, and (to give you an idea of my
accent) I'm from New England. Here's some of the reactions I got, and
where:
-(London)"What part of Canada are you from?"
-(L.)"You're like... an American English-person."
-(Kent) "(Audible gasp) You're an American!"
I never figured out if the second was meant as a compliment, or what!
There were some odd stereotypes, too ('you must own a dozen guns',
etc.), but that could just be a side-effect of where I was studying?
(We also kept getting asked 'is life back home like that?' during
movies like 'Pulp Fiction' or 'Heathers'- but I'm sure that was just
teasing. :) )
One of the things I brought back from that was to not to make the same
sort of assumptions, myself. Not a bad lesson, I guess.
Anyway (to wrench it back on-topic): As well as the accents, how well
do you think the Buffyverse shows handle Britain, on the whole?
It's generally in reaction to Giles or Wesley, but I remember a
British reviewer getting steamed when Xander suggested "English soccer
fan" as a possible non-Slayer career for Buffy.
Well?
Dave Paisley
Gavin Clayton wrote:
>
> This is what "Pixie Dust" <spam...@yahoo.com> just wrote:
>
> >In the opposite direction, how did you feel about Gyneth Paltrow's accent in
> >Shakespeare in Love? I would ask about what's-her-name in Bridget Jones'
> >Dairy, but even to me that one sounded weird.
Bridget Jones Dairy? I don't remember seeing any cows. (and please, no
fair making remarks about Rene Z's weight ;-)
Rene Z. was somewhat believable, but I thought the movie was so-so at
best, so I really didn't care.
> Gwyneth Paltrow actually does an *excellent* English accent. She's
> done it in quite a few films... Sliding Doors, Emma, etc.
OK, like many people, I totally didn't realize that Gwyneth is American
until long after she was a star. I lover her in SiL.
> Lots of actors get the chance to do English accents, because American
> actors tend to get cast in British films because they are bigger stars
> than British actors.
>
> But TV actors are truly awful at English accents. I cannot watch
> Frasier if one of Daphne's "relatives" is on the show. Awful.
I dunno, I kinda like Simon, the brother. But maybe it's just the total
over the top portrayal of the British yob that gets me.
> >> It also pisses me off when Brits say that Americans have no sense of
> >> humo(u)r. They say American humor is too slapsticky - not at all subtle.
> >> And that from the country that spawned Benny Hill...
> >
> >No kidding. We have many varied types of humor, some very sophisticated.
>
> This is true, Americans certainly do have a sense of irony and wit. I
> think every culture just doesn't quite "Get" another culture's humour
> (and I don't think *anybody* gets the French humour, for example).
Well, they're big on farce, which is also a British thing (and which
Frasier does excellently once or twice a season.)
> But I think the American wit often lacks something... the English are
> very good at making sad things funny... black humour... putting
> themselves down. I don't think Americans get that, due to having a
> different outlook on life.
Americans not good at black humor? How about M*A*S*H, which was often
nothing but.
And Friends features a lot of self deprecating humor.
What I don't think Americans do very well is over the top lunacy like
Python, Fawlty Towers or Red Dwarf (don't care for the latter, but you
get the idea.) Partly this comes from the American notion that a show
*ought* to run for ever, while Brit TV will happily do 6 or 12 episodes
then quit. (Case in point: Fawlty Towers.) So the Brit shows can take a
few quality ideas and really make the most of them. The American "run it
till it dies of exhaustion" philosophy tends to lead to a creative boom,
followed by a golden era, followed by a gradual decline, followed by a
scraping of the barrel, by which time the show gets canceled. (BTW, I'm
not saying which phase I think Buffy is in ;-)
Nor are they good at gentle, rustic humor like The Good life (or Good
Neighbors as they called it on PBS.)
One things American TV does well is something like Buffy (and so we
finally get back on topic ;-) British TV doesn't have the market or
budget to do something this lavish. I mean can you imagine Buffy on a
Dr. Who budget? The people complaining about unrealistic fight sequences
would really have something to bitch about then...
dave
Dave Paisley
Ted wrote:
>
> pen...@hotmail.com (pendell) wrote in message news:<2df7cf31.02021...@posting.google.com>...
>
> >
> > What does a "standard American" accent sound like to British ears
> > (think the one the anchors have on CNN and other news shows)?
> >
> > Does it sound like a particular regional dialect? Or does it stand by
> > itself? Does it imply a given class (besides "f*ing tourist")?
>
> This brings back some memories:
>
> I was an exchange student in the UK, and (to give you an idea of my
> accent) I'm from New England. Here's some of the reactions I got, and
> where:
>
> -(London)"What part of Canada are you from?"
> -(L.)"You're like... an American English-person."
> -(Kent) "(Audible gasp) You're an American!"
>
> I never figured out if the second was meant as a compliment, or what!
Don't bet on it...
> There were some odd stereotypes, too ('you must own a dozen guns',
> etc.), but that could just be a side-effect of where I was studying?
Don't bet on it... Some people over there think the Dukes of Hazard was
a documentary :-D
> (We also kept getting asked 'is life back home like that?' during
> movies like 'Pulp Fiction' or 'Heathers'- but I'm sure that was just
> teasing. :) )
Don't bet on it... (anyone sense a theme developing?)
> One of the things I brought back from that was to not to make the same
> sort of assumptions, myself. Not a bad lesson, I guess.
>
> Anyway (to wrench it back on-topic): As well as the accents, how well
> do you think the Buffyverse shows handle Britain, on the whole?
I'm just getting into Buffy, so I haven't seen enough to cover all the
Brit references, but Giles is great - just the right level of Oxford
Professor.
> It's generally in reaction to Giles or Wesley, but I remember a
> British reviewer getting steamed when Xander suggested "English soccer
> fan" as a possible non-Slayer career for Buffy.
The Xander quote is right on. While the view of the British soccer fan
may be a pretty stereotypical one, it's well deserved. I feared for my
life numerous times at soccer games in England. Deaths at games due to
fan violence keep happening over there, most usually these days in games
between European teams. Plus, geez Mr. Reviewer, buy a sense of humor,
please (or maybe just mop up some of that excess Brit sense of humor
that's just swilling around everywhere.)
> Well?
Hole in the ground? ;-)
dave
Kate Collins
>
>
> Good point.
>
> I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
>
> snip
>
> dave
Actually, Branagh in "Dead Again" wasn't too bad. Or does he count as
British?
Andrew McColl
I've NEVER heard a Brit say such a thing. What does get said over here is that
Americans have no sense of irony, an assertion I personally doubt.
Kate Collins
news:aebf4170.02021...@posting.google.com:
> Kate Collins <krco...@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:<Xns91B56E335F0Fk...@130.133.1.4>...
>> Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:3C6BCA68...@yahoo.com:
>>
>
> I think it's fair to say it exists to a degree here as well, for
> instance (and I'm not intending to start a political debate), both
> Gore and Bush were Ivy-League educated scions of New England
> (orginially) political dynasties, but I think Bush specifically played
> up the "C Student" reputation to give him more of a 'common man' rep
> and less of a 'snobby/too good for us' rep that Gore sort of got.
Now, see, I didn't get that at all. In the discussions that I both were a
part of and overheard, his academics were viewed with contempt rather than
comraderie. And this cut across all economic brackets. It was seen more
as a statement of his father's power than his "good ole boy" facade.
>
> And I think most college-educated parents would, at the very least, be
> fairly disappointed if their child decided not pursue a college
> education.
>
> As for people being judged on their 'own merits and accomplishments',
> that's something of a fallacy, in the fact that ones background often
> is a huge factor in what one achieves in life: the majority of people
> in the US generally stay in the socio-economic class they were born
> into.
Interesting. My grandfather was a share-cropper. Neither of my parents
finished high school My evidence may be more anecdotal than statistical,
but my experience does not support your statement.
>> I find that in certain sections of the US, money is more of a
>> cultural marker than in others.
>
> I'll agree there, it does seem that disdain of 'nouveau-riche' is only
> limited to certain communities here.
>
Indeed. The idea of the "genteel poor" was very prevalent in my childhood
culture.
Andrew McColl
Gavin Clayton wrote:
> But I think the American wit often lacks something... the English are
> very good at making sad things funny... black humour... putting
> themselves down. I don't think Americans get that, due to having a
> different outlook on life.
>
>
Self-deprecation: yeah we're good at that. But then we've got so much material
to work with. Black (gallows) humour? Forget it: that's where Americans kick
our butts. When Brits attempt dark comedy the results are usually awful
(Blackadder Goes Forth being the only exception that springs to mind).
Dave Paisley
Kate Collins wrote:
>
> Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >
> > Good point.
> >
> > I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
> >
> > snip
> >
> > dave
>
> Actually, Branagh in "Dead Again" wasn't too bad. Or does he count as
> British?
Let's see...
Birth name: Kenneth Charles Branagh
Date of birth (location) 10 December 1960, (Belfast, Northern Ireland,
UK)
So, definitely British, but also Irish. It's been a long time since I
saw Dead Again, and I remember enjoying it, so he obviously didn't suck.
OTOH, was he supposed to be an American?
Sometimes that's just never an issue in a story.
dave
Ice Queen
> And there's you nasal vowel sound. To me, most Americans say the same
> sound for pen and pin and it's a weird cross (ha!) between the two. Only
> the context helps, but if you're putting a notice up on a board and
> someone asks me to pass the pe/in, I'm usually at a loss to figure out
> what they want. Do they want to write something or stick something to
> the board?
Funny you should mention that. In Developmental Psych this week, we
just learned about how infants acquire language skills. I don't
remember the exact ages, but before something like two years of age
[total guess], infants have the ability to learn any basic sound the
human voice can make. But there's a short window-- if they don't learn
a certain language that has unique sounds to it by 2, they will never
learn to distinguish those sounds. Like your problem with "pin" and
"pen." The two words sound completely different to you than to us who
have learned to speak "American english" as children, but you missed
your chance to learn to distinguish the sounds by the time you were a
toddler. You actually hear the words differently than an American
hears them.
Aura
Pamela J. Ashworth
Yup, I didn't till his second scene, but he was more in the light
then. Dominic Keating.
--
Pam *from* Boston -- I've caught up on Buffy, but now I'm behind on everything else!
Scott Bakula starring in ENTERPRISE, Wednesdays at 8 on UPN
Latest Scott Bakula Appearances and News
http://www.bakulanews.com
Pixie Dust
news:3u4o6u8npgia113ou...@4ax.com...
> But TV actors are truly awful at English accents. I cannot watch
> Frasier if one of Daphne's "relatives" is on the show. Awful.
I recently found out the actor who plays her oafish brother is Anthony
LaPaglia, a very good Australian actor who plays Americans. (Very funny in
So I Married an Ax Murderer!)
Pixie Dust
> Actually, Branagh in "Dead Again" wasn't too bad. Or does he count as
> British?
Heh. I didn't see that movie, but from what I can recall, yeah, he does
manage to "pass." :)
Pixie Dust
> I'm just getting into Buffy, so I haven't seen enough to cover all the
> Brit references, but Giles is great - just the right level of Oxford
> Professor.
Is their accent typically a mumbly Hugh Grantish sort of thing, because I
have to rewind my Tivo very often to figure out what Giles has mumbled!
Paul Hammond
Well, Kenneth Brannagh is, indeed, British.
So, the impressive one would be Brannagh's Woody Allen
accent in "Celebrity"
Tante Joan
Ashworth) wrote:
>"Pixie Dust" <spam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>"Pixie Dust" <spam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:KhTa8.3380$jb4.2366819499@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>>> And what about the engineer on the new Star Trek? He was featured on the
>>> latest Enterprise ep. and I felt his accent, if not his actual voice, was
>>> very similar to some of the vocal talent in the computer game called BAlck
>>> and White. Anyone know about that? Those accents sound similar, but I
>>> wouldn't know how to place them on your demographic continuum.
>>
>>Sorry it seems like I'm replying to my own post, but how else would you edit
>>a ng post? I meant the *weapons specialist*. That actor, btw, was in a
>>Buffy ep., the one about her 18th birthday trial. Did anyone else notice
>>that?
>>
>Yup, I didn't till his second scene, but he was more in the light
>then. Dominic Keating.
Who is, I believe, the son of Charles Keating. Although he's most
recently acted in soaps ("Another World," "Port Charles"), CK is very
familiar to big-screen movie fans and also as Rex, Julia Marchmain's
politico husband, in the TV production of "Brideshead Revisited.")
TJ
Philip Chien
writes:
>I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
Would you accept actresses?
Kate Winslet and Marina Sirtis both have very lovely English accents.
But can talk with quite passable American accents when required for the
role. And I believe Marina Sirtis does a quite good Betazoid accent too.
Philip Chien, KC4YER (at) amsat.org
Earth News - space writer and consultant
my E-mail address is purposely incorrect to avoid SPAM-bots. I will not
accept any unsolicited E-mail or commercial advertisements.
David Milligan
"Philip Chien" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Kijb8.66520$TI5.3...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> In article <3C6C0468...@yahoo.com> Dave Paisley, dr...@yahoo.com
> writes:
> >I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
>
> Would you accept actresses?
>
> Kate Winslet and Marina Sirtis both have very lovely English accents.
> But can talk with quite passable American accents when required for the
> role. And I believe Marina Sirtis does a quite good Betazoid accent too.
Lucy Lawless has a pretty good American accent. Until I found out she was
from NZ, I assumed from her "accent" she was USofA born and bred.
Dave Paisley
> "Gavin Clayton" <gavin....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> > But TV actors are truly awful at English accents. I cannot watch
> > Frasier if one of Daphne's "relatives" is on the show. Awful.
>
> I recently found out the actor who plays her oafish brother is Anthony
> LaPaglia, a very good Australian actor who plays Americans. (Very funny in
> So I Married an Ax Murderer!)
Ahh... favorite movie alert!
"Excuse me miss, I believe I ordered the LARGE..."
--
d.a.v.e
Aethelrede
>Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3C6BCA68...@yahoo.com:
>
>>
>>
>> Aethelrede wrote:
>>
>In many respects, part of our heritage is that one is judged on one's own
>merits and accomplishments more than anything else. While this is not
>ALWAYS true, it is more the rule than the exception.
>
>For instance, in the South, we have the concept of "trash". This has
>nothing to do with someone's socio-economic level and everything to do
>with their behaviour. Evander Holyfield is something of a hero while
>Mike Tyson is considered, quite frankly, trashy.
Well, biting off a chunk of someone's ear will get you that rep. I
consider the chicke Tysons trash too: they spread bribes around a little too
openly and the way they openly paid to allow frozen chicken to be sold as
"chilled, fresh chicken" puts them in with the trash for me.
>>> But is true beyond all denial that the way you speak in the UK is
>>> a
>>> major social marker, unless you have money and are wearing a really
>>> well cut suit and know all sorts of important people and are
>>> recognised in the right restaurants and clubs. Then you're either a
>>> labour politician, a crook, a bent copper or Michael Caine.
>>
>> Even if you have money, etc., the "real" upper crust *knows* you're a
>> social climber (because you didn't use the right fork, etc...) and
>> will treat you accordingly (i.e. usually like a piece of dog crap that
>> just attached itself to their shiny new shoes.)
Not if you don't pretend to be one. There are thousands of markers that
label you instantly: using the wrong fork isn't one: they're set out on the
table in the order you use them, and you can always talk to your neighbour
until you see someone pick up the proper eating-iron, but the British upper
class has always been very tolerant of its inferiors, which is why they've
lasted so long: constant recruitment.
>
>I find that in certain sections of the US, money is more of a cultural
>marker than in others.
Money seems to me to be the biggest social marker, except that being
"Fred Smith The Third", or owning the largest or oldest house in town can
count for more as long as there's money too. Of course, in Hollywood and
Washington there are other rules because money isn't an issue there: it just
show up in large amounts or you wouldn't be allowed into the club.
Aethelrede
>pen...@hotmail.com (pendell) wrote in message
news:<2df7cf31.02021...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>
>> What does a "standard American" accent sound like to British ears
>> (think the one the anchors have on CNN and other news shows)?
>>
>> Does it sound like a particular regional dialect? Or does it stand by
>> itself? Does it imply a given class (besides "f*ing tourist")?
>
>This brings back some memories:
>
>I was an exchange student in the UK, and (to give you an idea of my
>accent) I'm from New England. Here's some of the reactions I got, and
>where:
>
>do you think the Buffyverse shows handle Britain, on the whole?
There's that whole "British food = Garbage" thing: as someone who has
lived in the UK for longer than a week, what is your opinion?
Gert Wallage
>> say the same sound for pen and pin and it's a weird cross
>> (ha!) between the two.
> Funny you should mention that. In Developmental Psych this
> week, we just learned about how infants acquire language
> skills. I don't remember the exact ages, but before something
> like two years of age [total guess], infants have the ability to
> learn any basic sound the human voice can make. But there's
> a short window-- if they don't learn a certain language that
> has unique sounds to it by 2, they will never learn to distinguish
> those sounds. Like your problem with "pin" and "pen." The
> two words sound completely different to you than to us who
> have learned to speak "American english" as children, but you
> missed your chance to learn to distinguish the sounds by the
> time you were a toddler. You actually hear the words
> differently than an American hears them.
This makes sense to me. Once I took part in a student exchange in Mexico,
and my Spanish-speaking counterpart told me that she couldn't really hear
the difference between "ankle" and "uncle," or "boss" and "bus."
Gert
Gert Wallage
> accents. But can talk with quite passable American accents
> when required for the role.
I've always found Marina Sirtis's American accent to be a little off. It's
something to do with the clear way she enunciates certain consonants, I
think - voicing some consonants that North Americans leave unvoiced
("water" instead of "wadder"). Not that this is a bad thing, of course.
Gert
Gert Wallage
> who has lived in the UK for longer than a week, what is your
> opinion?
Not that you asked me, but here's my view. It's nonsense!
The menus at mainstream British restaurants and pubs *used* to be pretty
stodgy and unimaginative, say back in the late '60's and early '70's when I
first visited the country. But in the 90's, when I actually moved to
England and lived there for a few years, I discovered that it was a whole
different ... cricket match.
Today there's much more variety, less overcooking (!), and a newfound
interest in how other countries and cultures prepare food. Also very
impressively, most menus offer several vegetarian options, reflecting the
fact that ~10% of the population is now vegetarian. (McDonald's serves
veggie burgers, for instance, which is more than they do over here.)
I remember going into a bakery in south Cumbria in 1992 and asking whether
they had bagels. The first shop assistant had no idea what I was talking
about, but the other one said, "Bay-gels! Oh yes, Delia Smith was talking
about bay-gels last night on her programme." Six months later, the bakery
was offering fresh bagels too. (Not that this is the yardstick by which
culinary sophistication should be measured, of course, but the Delia Smiths
of Great Britain have created a real revolution in the British attitude to
food.)
So basically - I think British food is frequently excellent! And I get a
little annoyed when BtVS claims that it's poor. Perhaps Joss is simply
remembering his public school days?
Gert
(who stopped worrying and learned to love Marmite)
Gert Wallage
> little off. It's something to do with the clear way she
> enunciates certain consonants, I think - voicing some
> consonants that North Americans leave unvoiced
> ("water" instead of "wadder").
It's naff to reply to my own post, but I got that voiced/unvoiced thing the
wrong way round. Always do. Should have known better.
Gerd
Pamela J. Ashworth
>On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:14:26 GMT, pash...@mindspring.com (Pamela J.
>Ashworth) wrote:
>
>>"Pixie Dust" <spam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Pixie Dust" <spam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:KhTa8.3380$jb4.2366819499@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> And what about the engineer on the new Star Trek? He was featured on the
>>>> latest Enterprise ep. and I felt his accent, if not his actual voice, was
>>>> very similar to some of the vocal talent in the computer game called BAlck
>>>> and White. Anyone know about that? Those accents sound similar, but I
>>>> wouldn't know how to place them on your demographic continuum.
>>>
>>
>>Yup, I didn't till his second scene, but he was more in the light
>>then. Dominic Keating.
>
>Who is, I believe, the son of Charles Keating. Although he's most
>recently acted in soaps ("Another World," "Port Charles"), CK is very
>familiar to big-screen movie fans and also as Rex, Julia Marchmain's
>politico husband, in the TV production of "Brideshead Revisited.")
>TJ
I'm guessing no. The following was found at
http://dominickeating.com/Communciator135.htm
Keating had no intrinsic interest in acting as a career, however,
choosing instead to read history at University College in London while
keeping up with some plays.
"I secretly harbored the thought of being an actor in my profession,"
he admits. "I traveled quite a bit, my mother said I was highly a
educated waiter. Then one day, I woke up and decided that I really
wanted to be an actor. What I did was call up Directory Inquiries,
what you call 411; it rang, the voice said 'Ello? And I said, 'I want
to be an actor.' And she said 'Can I give you one number at a time?'
That was 1988 and that was the start."
He plunged ahead and struck gold within a year when he was cast as a
regular on Desmond's, a comedy series set in a West Indies barbershop.
The show enjoyed a successful five-year run on British television and
was picked up for a year on US cable.
Keating moved to Los Angeles in 1994 and picked a hell of a time to
arrive, he says and laughs; two days after the devastating Northridge
earthquake.
John S. Olson
> I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
Ever see "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
Can't really remember the actor's name -- Tony Hoskins?
Anyway, it utterly floored me when, months after the
movie, I heard his natural speaking voice in an interview.
In the movie, he sounded *exactly* like a gruff American
private eye.
JSO
John S. Olson
> Funny you should mention that. In Developmental Psych this week, we
> just learned about how infants acquire language skills. I don't
> remember the exact ages, but before something like two years of age
> [total guess], infants have the ability to learn any basic sound the
> human voice can make. But there's a short window-- if they don't learn
> a certain language that has unique sounds to it by 2, they will never
> learn to distinguish those sounds.
Japanese doesn't distinguish between R and L; instead, they
have a sound that's about halfway between them. This is where
the stereotype comes from -- "I rike it vely much" -- but they
don't actually transpose the sounds. It's just that, to an ear
trained for English, it sounds more like an R when you were
expecting an L, and vice versa.
Actually, the sound shifts a bit depending on context, so
they can learn to make the distinction. But it's never as
easy as it is for us.
And fair's fair -- native English speakers *always* have
trouble with the long vowels and the double consonants.
I know I did.
JSO
Jay R. Ashworth
John S. Olson <ols...@toad.net> said to him:
> Dave Paisley wrote:
> > I've never heard a British actor do a good American accent.
>
> Ever see "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
>
> Can't really remember the actor's name -- Tony Hoskins?
Bob Hoskins.
> Anyway, it utterly floored me when, months after the
> movie, I heard his natural speaking voice in an interview.
> In the movie, he sounded *exactly* like a gruff American
> private eye.
He's a *Brit*?
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth j...@baylink.com
Member of the Technical Staff Baylink
The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think
Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274
God, unlike Anya, is fond of bunnies. -- Chelsea Christenson
Paul Hammond
John S. Olson <ols...@toad.net> wrote in message
news:3C6FCBB9...@toad.net...
Bob Hoskins.
He had quite a good Birmingham accent in another film he did,
too.
His natural accent is London - which I guess is kind of what
James Marsters aims for with Spike.
Paul
Gert Wallage
>> Ever see "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
>> Can't really remember the actor's name -- Tony Hoskins?
> Bob Hoskins.
>> Anyway, it utterly floored me when, months after the
>> movie, I heard his natural speaking voice in an interview.
>> In the movie, he sounded *exactly* like a gruff American
>> private eye.
> He's a *Brit*?
Not only that - he's a Londoner! (Couldn't tell you exactly which part,
though... I don't have the ear for that. Lisson Grove? ;-)
Gert
Ted
> > There's that whole "British food = Garbage" thing: as someone
> > who has lived in the UK for longer than a week, what is your
> > opinion?
>
> Not that you asked me, but here's my view. It's nonsense!
Agreed- most of us wondered what the fuss was about. Maybe it used to
be true, but people chafed enough at the reputation to do something
about it?
I thought London had amazing variety- just pick a style. Fast food's
pretty much the same, everywhere, with minor variations (i.e. kebab
places instead of sub-shops. Pizza was good, too- except there's corn
on it sometimes, which borders on unholy.) ;)
About the only really bad place I ate at in London was a Chinese
restaurant called "Chinese Restaurant" -dead giveaway, in retrospect!
(We mainly bought & fixed our own food, but that was OK, too.)
Elsewhere, still no complaints. I had a "Welsh Breakfast" that, except
for geography, was 100% identical to an "English Breakfast". Maybe the
bacon had an accent, but I didn't notice...
So, FWIW, I'd say it was an old stereotype with inertia on its side.
Even the 'bad' food wasn't _spectacularly_ bad- hardly 'garbage'.
BTW, was there a crack about British food in an ep, somewhere?
Gert Wallage
> somewhere?
Offhand, the only one I can think was Whistler's comment in "Becoming, Part
II" when he peeks in Giles's refrigerator and says: "Raiding an
Englishman's fridge is like dating a nun. You're never gonna get the good
stuff."
Pfft. I'll bet Whistler never dated any nuns, either.
Gert
Paul Hammond
> > BTW, was there a crack about British food in an ep,
> > somewhere?
>
> Offhand, the only one I can think was Whistler's comment in "Becoming,
Part
> II" when he peeks in Giles's refrigerator and says: "Raiding an
> Englishman's fridge is like dating a nun. You're never gonna get the good
> stuff."
>
Tara tends to get the things to say about England - which are
usually pretty funny, like "you're going to England, how exotic
(realising) Unless you're English".
So, I guess she might have said something about "garbage food"
sometime - or if it wasn't her, it would be Xander.
The one above is pretty funny, though I guess it depends on
reinforcing the stereotype.
Talking about food and countries - I heard on a language
programme last night how the Spanish pronounce the
word "croissant" - ie, it doesn't sound French any more.
In English, we try to pronounce the word as a French word,
in Spanish they don't.
Paul
Laura Geyer
> "Gert Wallage" <gwal...@telus.com.net> wrote in message news:<VwEb8.3003$Ym3.9...@news0.telusplanet.net>...
>> > There's that whole "British food = Garbage" thing: as someone
>> > who has lived in the UK for longer than a week, what is your
>> > opinion?
>>
>> Not that you asked me, but here's my view. It's nonsense!
>
> Agreed- most of us wondered what the fuss was about. Maybe it used to
> be true, but people chafed enough at the reputation to do something
> about it?
>
> I thought London had amazing variety- just pick a style. Fast food's
> pretty much the same, everywhere, with minor variations (i.e. kebab
> places instead of sub-shops. Pizza was good, too- except there's corn
> on it sometimes, which borders on unholy.) ;)
> About the only really bad place I ate at in London was a Chinese
> restaurant called "Chinese Restaurant" -dead giveaway, in retrospect!
Notice that you're talking about London and kebabs are Middle eastern, not
English. My experience in England was that the best food was ethnic food
from elsewhere and ethnic food became harder to find the farther you got
from London. Best food anywhere in the UK seems to be curry.
These are the people that make a cheese sandwich by shredding some
Cheddar, mixing it with mayonnaise and slathering it on white bread. Still
for the most part it wasn't bad-certainly no worse than say, the Mid-west
USA (not to offend anyone, but it's been my experience that the farther
you get from the coasts the more the food tends to be heavy, bland and in
enormous portions).
Traditional English food seems to be based almost entirely on what stored
well and grew in England-as a result it tends to be low on the fresh
veggies and high in starch and fat-and mostly boiled to death (frankly
that's the best way to prepare a root vegetable that's leftover from last
year). Since the inception of mass refrigeration and the end of postwar
rationing that's all changed, but traditional food changes slowly. The
reputation has probably stuck in the US only because American food has
changed much faster-more ethnicities to draw on and greater availability
of fresh food.
If you want really gross cooking, try Scotland. For get Haggis, they have
deep fried, well, anything. Fish, Veggies, Snicker's bars...
> So, FWIW, I'd say it was an old stereotype with inertia on its side.
> Even the 'bad' food wasn't _spectacularly_ bad- hardly 'garbage'.
Agreed.
Cheers,
Laura
--
Wesley: It's what would make me feel better. A humongous
serving of bangers and mash. Heavy on the gravy,
and a nice thick Black and Tan. I'm starving.
Gunn: I hear that. 'Cept make it a quarter pounder with
cheese -- no, two quarter pounders with cheese,
a large fries, and a big-ass Coke.
(A pause. Wes and Gunn look at Angel)
Angel: You really don't want me to play this game.
--Angel: Over the Rainbow (the shooting script)
Dave Paisley
Gert Wallage wrote:
>
> > There's that whole "British food = Garbage" thing: as someone
> > who has lived in the UK for longer than a week, what is your
> > opinion?
>
> Not that you asked me, but here's my view. It's nonsense!
>
> The menus at mainstream British restaurants and pubs *used* to be pretty
> stodgy and unimaginative, say back in the late '60's and early '70's when I
> first visited the country. But in the 90's, when I actually moved to
> England and lived there for a few years, I discovered that it was a whole
> different ... cricket match.
Slightly better, but not much.
> Today there's much more variety, less overcooking (!), and a newfound
> interest in how other countries and cultures prepare food. Also very
> impressively, most menus offer several vegetarian options, reflecting the
> fact that ~10% of the population is now vegetarian. (McDonald's serves
> veggie burgers, for instance, which is more than they do over here.)
You have heard of mad cow disease (BSE), right?
That was (and continues to be) a huge scare that was enough to swear a
lot of people off meat for good. McDonalds would serve veggie burgers
here if anyone ever bought them (and they have tried.)
Now if we could only persuade smokers that cigarettes cause cancer...
dave
Paul Hammond
Laura Geyer <lge...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:a4rdq7$8fa$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
> Ted <T...@nospam.2ndmail.com> wrote:
> > "Gert Wallage" <gwal...@telus.com.net> wrote in message
news:<VwEb8.3003$Ym3.9...@news0.telusplanet.net>...
> >> > There's that whole "British food = Garbage" thing: as someone
> >> > who has lived in the UK for longer than a week, what is your
> >> > opinion?
> >>
> >> Not that you asked me, but here's my view. It's nonsense!
> >
> > Agreed- most of us wondered what the fuss was about. Maybe it used to
> > be true, but people chafed enough at the reputation to do something
> > about it?
> >
> > I thought London had amazing variety- just pick a style. Fast food's
> > pretty much the same, everywhere, with minor variations (i.e. kebab
> > places instead of sub-shops. Pizza was good, too- except there's corn
> > on it sometimes, which borders on unholy.) ;)
> > About the only really bad place I ate at in London was a Chinese
> > restaurant called "Chinese Restaurant" -dead giveaway, in retrospect!
>
> Notice that you're talking about London and kebabs are Middle eastern, not
> English. My experience in England was that the best food was ethnic food
> from elsewhere and ethnic food became harder to find the farther you got
> from London. Best food anywhere in the UK seems to be curry.
>
Kebabs are ubiquitous. And, usually, when you are talking about
whether you can find good eating in a place, you *don't* disallow
the range of Italian, French, Chinese restaurants you can find in
the place because it's not "native" cuisine - those restaurants
exist to serve a clientele - if their taste doesn't match the
customers', they'd go out of business.
>
> Traditional English food seems to be based almost entirely on what stored
> well and grew in England-as a result it tends to be low on the fresh
> veggies and high in starch and fat-and mostly boiled to death (frankly
> that's the best way to prepare a root vegetable that's leftover from last
> year). Since the inception of mass refrigeration and the end of postwar
> rationing that's all changed, but traditional food changes slowly. The
> reputation has probably stuck in the US only because American food has
> changed much faster-more ethnicities to draw on and greater availability
> of fresh food.
>
And, also because most Americans have an image of Britain that
is frozen in the 50s - when we still had post-war rationing
for 5 years - or even from GIs impression of the food during
the war when we had to used powdered eggs.
> If you want really gross cooking, try Scotland. For get Haggis, they have
> deep fried, well, anything. Fish, Veggies, Snicker's bars...
>
Yes - someone did a "cook's tour" of the world, and in Glasgow
went to a chippy where they would deep fry virtually anything
for you - it got to be a competition where they were trying to
find the grossest thing for him to eat. The pizza slice had
been done before, but I think they got there with the pickled
egg.
Later in the programme, he experienced a very different (much
healthier and fresher) traditional Scottish cuisine when he joined the
upper crust for a shooting party, and they had a rather nice
meal while they where out.
Actually, vegetables fried in the right sort of batter can be quite
tasty - they are on the menu at quite a classy cafe in my home
town, which also serves an amazing flat bread with one of
those soft french cheeses, sun-dried tomatoes and peppers
in it for only £2.50 (around $4).
> --
> Wesley: It's what would make me feel better. A humongous
> serving of bangers and mash. Heavy on the gravy,
> and a nice thick Black and Tan. I'm starving.
> Gunn: I hear that. 'Cept make it a quarter pounder with
> cheese -- no, two quarter pounders with cheese,
> a large fries, and a big-ass Coke.
>
> (A pause. Wes and Gunn look at Angel)
>
> Angel: You really don't want me to play this game.
>
> --Angel: Over the Rainbow (the shooting script)
>
Though, oddly enough, they skipped this scene on the screen.
And, I don't really know what a "Black and Tan" is, unless it's
some kind of sausage for Wes's bangers and mash.
Paul
Dave Paisley
Paul Hammond wrote:
>
> Laura Geyer <lge...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> > --
> > Wesley: It's what would make me feel better. A humongous
> > serving of bangers and mash. Heavy on the gravy,
> > and a nice thick Black and Tan. I'm starving.
> > Gunn: I hear that. 'Cept make it a quarter pounder with
> > cheese -- no, two quarter pounders with cheese,
> > a large fries, and a big-ass Coke.
> >
> > (A pause. Wes and Gunn look at Angel)
> >
> > Angel: You really don't want me to play this game.
> >
> > --Angel: Over the Rainbow (the shooting script)
> >
>
> Though, oddly enough, they skipped this scene on the screen.
>
> And, I don't really know what a "Black and Tan" is, unless it's
> some kind of sausage for Wes's bangers and mash.
Wesley was referring to beer - half Guinness (the black) and half bitter
(the tan.)
The "tan" half can consist of a variety of different lighter colored
beers (of course, anything else is lighter than Guinness.) Consider the
following (from http://www.ivo.se/guinness/bnt.html):
> What's a Black & Tan?
> The answer depends on who you ask. The all-Guinness Black &
> Tan is Harp's Lager and Guinness. (Harp's is brewed by Guinness
> at Dundalk). Many consider the classic Black & Tan to be Bass
> Pale Ale and Guinness. (To some Irish, they appreciate the fact
> that the Irish comes out on top!) However, Bass Ale is not as
> available in Ireland as it used to be, and either Harp or
> Smithwicks is generally used. However, there are many
> variations involving a stout or porter and another lighter coloured
> beer, either lager or ale.
It seems kind of a robust drink for Wesley, who comes across as more of
a Chardonnay sipper, if you know what I mean. Not that there's anything
wrong with that.
Of course, another meaning for the phrase Black & Tan also has its
origins in Ireland, which may also account for the Irish liking the fact
that the Irish half comes out on top...
> Member of a British auxiliary force employed in Ireland against the
> republicans (1920-21). When Irish nationalist agitation intensified after
> World War I, many Irish police resigned and were replaced by these
> temporary English recruits, who dressed in a mixed "black and tan"
> outfit because of a shortage of uniforms. In their efforts to thwart the
> terrorism of the Irish Republican Army, the Black and Tans themselves
> engaged in brutal reprisals.
hth,
dave
Laura Geyer
That's rather the point-You can find an amazing variety of good food
_in_London_ but the farther you get from there the harder it is to find.
Much like the Mid-west.
Cheers,
Laura
--
"Oh! I know this one: 'Slaying entails certain sacrifices... blah
blah bliddy blah. I'm so stuffy, give me a scone.'"
"It's as if you know me."
--Buffy and Giles
BtVS: Inca Mummy Girl
Andrew McColl
Paul Hammond wrote:
>
>
> And, I don't really know what a "Black and Tan" is, unless it's
> some kind of sausage for Wes's bangers and mash.
>
> Paul
'Black and Tan' is Stout, usually Guinness.
Dave Paisley
As noted elsewhere, Guinness is the "black" in "black and tan". The tan
is some kind of bitter/pale ale/lager depending on taste and local
custom.
dave
Mad Hamish
<paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
>Laura Geyer <lge...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
>news:a4rdq7$8fa$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
>>
>> Wesley: It's what would make me feel better. A humongous
>> serving of bangers and mash. Heavy on the gravy,
>> and a nice thick Black and Tan. I'm starving.
>> Gunn: I hear that. 'Cept make it a quarter pounder with
>> cheese -- no, two quarter pounders with cheese,
>> a large fries, and a big-ass Coke.
>>
>> (A pause. Wes and Gunn look at Angel)
>>
>> Angel: You really don't want me to play this game.
>>
>> --Angel: Over the Rainbow (the shooting script)
>>
>
>Though, oddly enough, they skipped this scene on the screen.
>
>And, I don't really know what a "Black and Tan" is, unless it's
>some kind of sausage for Wes's bangers and mash.
>
from the Guinness FAQ
http://www.ivo.se/guinness/bnt.html
A:
What is a Black & Tan?
What is a Half-and-Half?
The answer depends on who you ask. The all-Guinness Black & Tan is
Harp's Lager and Guinness. (Harp's is brewed by Guinness at Dundalk).
Many consider the classic Black & Tan to be Bass Pale Ale and
Guinness. (To some Irish, they appreciate the fact that the Irish
comes out on top!) However, Bass Ale is not as available in Ireland as
it used to be, and either Harp or Smithwicks is generally used.
However, there are many variations involving a stout or porter and
another lighter coloured beer, either lager or ale.
A half-and-half is often just another name for a Black & Tan. However,
in many North American Irish pubs, the Bass/Guinness combination is
called a Black & Tan, while the Harp/Guinness combination is called a
Half-and-Half.
To quote Brendan E. Molloy b.mo...@ic.ac.uk: according to "The
Guinness Drinking Companion" by Leslie Dunkling:
Black and Tan = Guinness and Mild
Half and Half = Mild and Bitter
The above book (now sadly out of print) was published by Guinness
Publishing and if anyone knows they do! The full Oxford English
Dictionary also mentions these mixtures (look under Beer, Ale, Drink,
etc.). With the decline of Mild in the UK these names are dropping out
of use. In Dublin, where Mild is no longer available, you will get
Guinness mixed with Bitter if you ask for a Black and Tan. Some
publicans serve other combinations so it is best to check before you
buy.
[Note: Mild is a sweet 'Tan' coloured beer., that is typically light
in alcohol.]
However, Guinness promotional advertising refers to a Black & Tan as
being the Bass and Guinness version. Ken Papai described the ads as
follows
--
"Hope is replaced by fear and dreams by survival, most of us get by."
Stuart Adamson 1958-2001
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_l...@bigpond.com
ai...@rmta.org
[snip]
> That's rather the point-You can find an amazing variety of good food
> _in_London_ but the farther you get from there the harder it is to find.
> Much like the Mid-west.
i can vouch for this, unfortunately. my in-laws live out in the boonies
(cherryvile, missouri, population about 200), and their idea of a good
restaurant meal out there is utterly horrific. i always come off as a
huge snob if we go out out there.
i avoid rural areas altogether when travelling because of this. i'm
picky, so i go for the cities every time. and the thing about british
food is that it's dull. the good stuff is what they've imported, like
curries.
Aimee the Magdalene
| the view that the metaphysician is to be reckoned among the poets |
| appears to rest on the assumption that both talk nonsense. but |
| this assumption is false. in the vast majority of cases the |
| sentences produced by poets do have literal meaning. |
| - A.J. Ayer |
Aethelrede
Andrew McColl wrote in message <3C72C52E...@ntlworld.com>...
It's stout and pale ale mixed half and half. The most available stout
is Guinness, outside Ireland and the North of England. Since the Guinness
Brewery makes it a point to make draught Guinness widely available, while
pale ale is bottled, most people try to convince the bartender that the
"correct" way to make it is to put the draught Guinness in first, then the
pale ale, which they think will get them more than a pint because of
misjudging the amount of stout and giving then what's left in the bottle
But since every novice bartender is told about this before they start on
the job (I know I was), so they always pour the half pint of pale ale in
first, foaming it up if they work for a really cheap manager, then put in
the Guinness, making a remark about "The Irish coming out on top for once".
I can't stand the stuff myself: one or the other, but not mixed. If
you have to mix Guinness with anything, use champagne and make Buck's Fizz.
But be careful: it helps to cool the Guinness a bit first, which means
using bottled.
Gert Wallage
> good food _in_London_ but the farther you get from there
> the harder it is to find.
I found some surprisingly good menus in "ordinary" pubs and restaurants in
Cumbria and Lancashire.
Cornwall was another matter. Still, there's a bakery in Padstow that makes
wonderful banana-and-chocolate pasties...
Gert
Andrew McColl
Paul Hammond
Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C725FED...@yahoo.com...
The Chardonnay wouldn't go well with bangers and mash, though.
Thanks to the folks who explained what a "Black and Tan"
was - I have heard of it before.
Paul
Bethany Weber
>
> The Chardonnay wouldn't go well with bangers and mash, though.
>
> Thanks to the folks who explained what a "Black and Tan"
> was - I have heard of it before.
So now that that's been cleared up, what's bangers and mash?
As an aisde -- my experience as an exchange student in London was that
the food was excellent, with one exception: no decent Mexican.
Bethany
Robert Huff
> Still
> for the most part it wasn't bad-certainly no worse than say, the Mid-west
> USA (not to offend anyone, but it's been my experience that the farther
> you get from the coasts the more the food tends to be heavy,
bland and in
> enormous portions).
Depending on how you define "Mid-west USA", one should note
much of the traditional fare comes from farm country. When
burning 750+ calories before breakfast is considered an easy
day, "heavy" and "enormous portions" are _good_ things.
Robert Huff
Laura Geyer
> "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message news:<3c73...@212.67.96.135>...
>
>
>
>>
>> The Chardonnay wouldn't go well with bangers and mash, though.
>>
>> Thanks to the folks who explained what a "Black and Tan"
>> was - I have heard of it before.
>
> So now that that's been cleared up, what's bangers and mash?
>
Sausages and Mashed potatoes. With gravy.
Heavy, greasy and low on the spices. OTOH, pretty much every place has
_some_ food you can point to and say Yeauch! I grew up eating Scrapple, so
who the hell am I to criticize?
Cheers,
Laura
--
Could I have someone to eat?
--Spike
BtVS: Pangs
Dave Paisley
Bethany Weber wrote:
>
> "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message news:<3c73...@212.67.96.135>...
>
> >
> > The Chardonnay wouldn't go well with bangers and mash, though.
> >
> > Thanks to the folks who explained what a "Black and Tan"
> > was - I have heard of it before.
>
> So now that that's been cleared up, what's bangers and mash?
Sausages (bangers) and mashed potatoes (mash, duh ;-)
Not sure of how sausages became bangers (maybe prone to explosion on
cooking if not pricked with a fork?) and I can't find a slang dictionary
that gives an origin .
Anyone else know?
> As an aisde -- my experience as an exchange student in London was that
> the food was excellent, with one exception: no decent Mexican.
Not a lot of Mexican immigration into England, despite the gulf
stream...
dave
Robert Myers
wrote:
Though I can tell you as a Michigan-born the food is like that even
where people don't work like that.
--
rob m at rob myers dot net
Stephen Tempest
> and the thing about british
>food is that it's dull. the good stuff is what they've imported, like
>curries.
Actually, curry *is* British food, loosely adapted from Indian cuisine
- the same way that pizza is American food based on an Italian idea.
Chicken tikka masala was invented in Britain (and is now being
exported to India, apparently, much to their horror and bemusement).
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Offhand, the only one I can think was Whistler's comment in "Becoming, Part
>II" when he peeks in Giles's refrigerator and says: "Raiding an
>Englishman's fridge is like dating a nun. You're never gonna get the good
>stuff."
>
>Pfft. I'll bet Whistler never dated any nuns, either.
>
Can I just point out here that both Spike and Angel *have* dated a
nun? I'm pretty sure they got the good stuff, as well...
Stephen
"She eventually fled to a convent, and on the day she took her holy
orders, I turned her into a demon"
Ted
> As an aisde -- my experience as an exchange student in London was that
> the food was excellent, with one exception: no decent Mexican.
>
> Bethany
Really? I thought the Texas Embassy was pretty good.*
Then again, hello- Yankee! What do I know from good Mexican, right? :)
*(A Tex-Mex place about a block from Trafalgar Square. IIRC, the
building actually did serve as consular offices during the time Texas
was an independent Republic.)
======================================================================
"Warlock liked England. It was a nice country to be an American in."
-"Good Omens", Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett
Sarah Sammis
Tan half.
Sarah
Andrew McColl
Dave Paisley wrote:
> Bethany Weber wrote:
> >
> > "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message news:<3c73...@212.67.96.135>...
> >
> > >
> > > The Chardonnay wouldn't go well with bangers and mash, though.
> > >
> > > Thanks to the folks who explained what a "Black and Tan"
> > > was - I have heard of it before.
> >
> > So now that that's been cleared up, what's bangers and mash?
>
> Sausages (bangers) and mashed potatoes (mash, duh ;-)
>
> Not sure of how sausages became bangers (maybe prone to explosion on
> cooking if not pricked with a fork?)
Seem to recall it was something like that, back in the days of 'natural' skins on the sausages
as opposed to the mass-produced stuff largely used these days.
Paul Hammond
Stephen Tempest <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c7506bd...@news.demon.co.uk...
And, Baltis were invented in Birmingham - I must insist on having
one when I visit my friend there next weekend!
Paul
Bethany Weber
> Bethany Weber wrote:
> > So now that that's been cleared up, what's bangers and mash?
>
> Sausages (bangers) and mashed potatoes (mash, duh ;-)
Ah. Well, that's the new thing I've learned today. :-) Doesn't sound
too appealing, but then I've never been a fan of sausage except as a
breakfast meat or gound on pizza. (Or brautwurst. You can't go wrong
with a good braut.)
Bethany
Aethelrede
<7aeb402e.02022...@posting.google.com>...
It's a totally different type of sausage. They can be either pork the
more popular, or beef, and are mildly spiced and sold refrigerated to be
eaten within days of purchase, fried. They are a big part of the
traditional "Full English Breakfast": porridge followed by fried bacon (the
English kind, not the salted fat Americans call bacon), sausages, fried
eggs and a fried slice (which is plain bread, fried to a deep brown with the
rest, with the eggs served on it), and maybe fried potatoes. Followed by
lots of buttered toast and marmalade.
Sort of the American Heart Association's nightmare meal!
chibiangi
Aethelrede <æthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote in message
news:0_Be8.14780$Im1.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Mine too. Bleh.
Three kinds of meat for breakfast? My tummy is in knots just thinking about
it.
-- >not a breakfast fan.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FEB MBC Sushi!Girlie
"When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of
performing oral sex
on a poorly constructed snowman standing in the yard of people I have never
met."-ad
"My career lets me travel to all kinds of great overseas places, like
Canada."
-Britney Spears
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Udo Schmitz
> [...] brautwurst. You can't go wrong
> with a good braut.)
Sorry? I never heard of that? Do you mean bratwurst or...?
Regards, Udo
--
"A platform by a company not run by a sweaty shaved ape"
http://www.appleturns.com
Dave Paisley
chibiangi wrote:
> Aethelrede <ćthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote
> > Bethany Weber wrote
> > >Dave Paisley <dr...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >> Bethany Weber wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> > So now that that's been cleared up, what's bangers and mash?
> > >>
> > >> Sausages (bangers) and mashed potatoes (mash, duh ;-)
> > >
> > >Ah. Well, that's the new thing I've learned today. :-) Doesn't sound
> > >too appealing, but then I've never been a fan of sausage except as a
> > >breakfast meat or gound on pizza. (Or brautwurst. You can't go wrong
> > >with a good braut.)
> >
> > It's a totally different type of sausage. They can be either pork the
> > more popular, or beef, and are mildly spiced and sold refrigerated to be
> > eaten within days of purchase, fried. They are a big part of the
> > traditional "Full English Breakfast": porridge followed by fried bacon (the
> > English kind, not the salted fat Americans call bacon), sausages, fried
> > eggs and a fried slice (which is plain bread, fried to a deep brown with the
> > rest, with the eggs served on it), and maybe fried potatoes. Followed by
> > lots of buttered toast and marmalade.
> > Sort of the American Heart Association's nightmare meal!
>
> Mine too. Bleh.
> Three kinds of meat for breakfast? My tummy is in knots just thinking about
> it.
He even missed out the kidneys and black pudding, so there's *lots* more
off-the-chart artery clogging stuff to come.
And then there's the kippers, of course. Being vaguely related to fish
they're probably not instantly deadly, but you never know. There's
enough salt in there to at least elevate blood pressure to danger
levels.
> -- >not a breakfast fan.
Maybe you should try the Weetabix then?
dave