A Second Look: BTVS S3D1

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Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jun 29, 2007, 2:42:21 AM6/29/07
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A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon

Hey, this one plays a lot better the second time around. Knowing that
Chantrlilyanne has a future helps. And seeing the way this is an
introduction to our year of identity crises, growth, and moving on
definitely helps. I'm a season premiere that sets the stage for
what's to come; and you are? But it's more than that. The L.A.
sequences create another world compared to what the show usually dose,
big and depressing, and keeps its characters hopeless without making
things boring for the viewer. Then it's - as it always is, they're
contractually obligated to do this story once a year - a joy to see
Buffy gradually begin to get her Slayer on, and the revolt in the hell
factory (character-wise, if not visually) snaps nicely into place as a
denouement for it. The scenes in Sunnydale that aren't the teaser or
the last scene can still blow me, but Buffy's story is solid work.
Rating: Good (up from Decent)


Season Three, Episode 2: "Dead Man's Party"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: James Whitmore, Jr.

This one has a lot of happy NG-related memories, since it spawned one
of those marathon threads, the longest until it finally got dethroned
much later, I think by "Primeval." Some people hated Buffy's friends
here, or thought they were out of character, and even many of my
allies in the "totally in character" camp were fine with the concept
of the episode but didn't dig the execution. I remember following the
posts rolling in from work, and being anxious to rush home and spend
some serious time putting together a lengthy post; I spent a lot of
words putting myself in Willow et al's position (Buffy's side of the
argument is easier to see for most people, since we're following
her). I was fairly proud of it. DMP also was the first step in the
revelation that zombies are a lot more fun than I'd given them credit
for. Anyway, short story is that I love this episode, about as much
as ever. The comedy, especially from Oz and Cordelia, strikes me as
funnier the second time around. Giles rules, especially when
confronting Snyder. And the sequence in which we're made to empathize
with Buffy as much as possible, and then turn things around and see
what the others are holding her accountable for, remains one of my
favorite trips through the emotional wringer. My brother was a fan
too, and I knew that he was sold on the show pretty much for good at
this point.
Rating: Excellent


Season Three, Episode 3: "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
Writer: David Greenwalt
Director: James A. Contner

Faith... [drool]. This is a good one too, basically starting the S3 arc
proper while throwing in enough tie-backs to DMP to keep it (and
"Anne") functioning as a bridge. At first I enjoyed it but wondered
if it'd hold up if I'd been in a different mood. Now I say it's just
good. The other new characters introduced in the title won't stick
around for long, but Dushku comes close to stealing the show in her
debut, with an endlessly entertaining hero who's already showing hints
of her ultimate direction this year. The dialogue from everyone
crackles - it's one of the more quotable episodes of BTVS -- all the
while providing some quality angsting for our hero, leading up to one
of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."
Rating: Good


Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: James Whitmore, Jr.

I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which Faith
appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're episodes like
this one that get in the way. Still not appreciating the "all men are
beasts" theme, although at least sometimes they can be good
domesticated _White Fang_ style beasts. B&TB spends far too much of
its time on the hilariously transforming boyfriend of death and his
doormat, neither of whom we're inclined to care about, and pretty much
screws up its attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the
point where it didn't even register originally. Just not that much
worth caring about. On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
strong mostly dialogue-free moments, especially towards the end, and
Oz gets a little screen time for himself, giving us a rare look into
how he reacts when weighed down with something that can't be
nonchalanted away.
Rating: Decent


Additional comments on S3D1: Ah, Season Three. Besides being glad to
have gotten here because, well, S3 is good, was very glad to have left
those S2 loading menus behind.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

bookworm

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Jun 29, 2007, 6:31:54 AM6/29/07
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if I like an ep or not is solely depending on wheter I can relate to it,
or not. and as a few friends stopped talking to me after a year I spent
abroad (although we even kept contact while I was gone), I could relate
to this ep a lot, always. therefore I loved it like nobody else did I
knew. But there's someone out there who rates it excellent too, cool...

> leading up to one
> of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."
> Rating: Good
>

one of my favorite btvs-moments...

> On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
> strong mostly dialogue-free moments,

did anybody else notice that angel holds buffy around the waist the
exact same way as does peter "colossus" rasputin kitty "shadowcat" pride
in astonishing x-men iss.4.

Michael Ikeda

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Jun 29, 2007, 6:48:54 AM6/29/07
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Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a
> three.

>

> Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which
> Faith appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're
> episodes like this one that get in the way. Still not
> appreciating the "all men are beasts" theme, although at least
> sometimes they can be good domesticated _White Fang_ style
> beasts. B&TB spends far too much of its time on the hilariously
> transforming boyfriend of death and his doormat, neither of whom
> we're inclined to care about, and pretty much screws up its
> attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the point
> where it didn't even register originally. Just not that much
> worth caring about. On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
> strong mostly dialogue-free moments, especially towards the end,
> and Oz gets a little screen time for himself, giving us a rare
> look into how he reacts when weighed down with something that
> can't be nonchalanted away.
> Rating: Decent

If I gave ratings, this would be an excellent. I enjoyed the way
it intertwined the three key relationships (Oz/Willow, Buffy/Angel,
Debbie/Pete) for our comparison and contrast.

And loved Buffy's reaction to Angel's return. From her
astonishment at their first encounter, to her reactions to his
insanity, to her desperate grasping-at-straws conversation with
Giles, to the realization that there is real hope for Angel, to the
closer as she watches over a sleeping Angel. Almost picture
perfect, the entire "B" plot of it...

And all the little moments. Willow calmly gathering evidence and
THEN fainting. And later her joy at Oz being cleared. Giles'
speech about monsters. Buffy's ironic lecturing of Debbie. Etc.

(I'm a little surprised that you didn't originally catch the
analogy between Debbie/Pete and Buffy/Angel. I loved the episode,
but I didn't see the analogy as being exactly subtle.)

--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

David L. Burkhead

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Jun 29, 2007, 10:38:50 AM6/29/07
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"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Hey, this one plays a lot better the second time around. Knowing that
> Chantrlilyanne has a future helps. And seeing the way this is an
> introduction to our year of identity crises, growth, and moving on
> definitely helps. I'm a season premiere that sets the stage for
> what's to come; and you are? But it's more than that. The L.A.
> sequences create another world compared to what the show usually dose,
> big and depressing, and keeps its characters hopeless without making
> things boring for the viewer. Then it's - as it always is, they're
> contractually obligated to do this story once a year - a joy to see
> Buffy gradually begin to get her Slayer on, and the revolt in the hell
> factory (character-wise, if not visually) snaps nicely into place as a
> denouement for it. The scenes in Sunnydale that aren't the teaser or
> the last scene can still blow me, but Buffy's story is solid work.
> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

One of the things I got from this one is the idea that you can run away
from anything except yourself. Much as she may want to, Buffy cannot really
put down her calling as The Slayer. And in the end, when it comes right
down to it, she finds that she doesn't want to. When Buffy is being Anne
she appears to be chronically depressed and hopeless herself. Yet when she
finally re-accepts her Slayer part "I'm Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" it's like
she comes alive. And the pacing changes from that point. Instead of being
slow and gloomy, it moves into fast-paced action.

One particular high point for me was that it was Chantlinlyanne (love
that, BTW) that pushed "Ken" off the walkway. One of the things I like
about Buffy is the effect she has on the people around her. Association
with Buffy seems to bring out the best in people and they become more than
they ever dreamed possible.

I had no problem with how the various regulars acted here, except
possibly for Joyce (more on that later). Buffy had basically disappeared
off the face of the Earth as far as her friends knew, and of course they had
no idea of the reasons Buffy left, so naturally they felt awkward and
uncomfortable. Willow, at this point in the series is still quite a "perky"
character so The Party That Got Out of Hand was entirely in character, IMO.

Now, on the subject of Joyce. When Buffy's packing to go again, Joyce
immediately starts railing on her. Far from the best approach, IMO, but
understandable. But when Buffy counters with the "You told me to."
(Becomings "If you go out that door, don't even think about coming back."),
Joyce responds heatedly with a "I handled that badly but..." without giving
any consideration to how Buffy might feel. Bad. Bad. Bad. However, I
can't really say whether this is "out of character" for Joyce since, again
IMO, she's never really all that well defined as a character.

On the whole, my empathy is all with Buffy here. The others have
absolutely no idea what she's been going through, and I really don't think
Joyce had told anyone what her last words to Buffy were before Buffy left,
especially after what she said to Giles in Anne ("I blame you.").

> Season Three, Episode 3: "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Faith... [drool]. This is a good one too, basically starting the S3 arc
> proper while throwing in enough tie-backs to DMP to keep it (and
> "Anne") functioning as a bridge. At first I enjoyed it but wondered
> if it'd hold up if I'd been in a different mood. Now I say it's just
> good. The other new characters introduced in the title won't stick
> around for long, but Dushku comes close to stealing the show in her
> debut, with an endlessly entertaining hero who's already showing hints
> of her ultimate direction this year. The dialogue from everyone
> crackles - it's one of the more quotable episodes of BTVS -- all the
> while providing some quality angsting for our hero, leading up to one
> of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."
> Rating: Good

I consider Giles subterfuge to get Buffy to open up about what happened
one of the best points of this ep. It firmly established how much Giles
cares about Buffy

> Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which Faith
> appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're episodes like
> this one that get in the way. Still not appreciating the "all men are
> beasts" theme, although at least sometimes they can be good
> domesticated _White Fang_ style beasts. B&TB spends far too much of
> its time on the hilariously transforming boyfriend of death and his
> doormat, neither of whom we're inclined to care about, and pretty much
> screws up its attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the
> point where it didn't even register originally. Just not that much
> worth caring about. On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
> strong mostly dialogue-free moments, especially towards the end, and
> Oz gets a little screen time for himself, giving us a rare look into
> how he reacts when weighed down with something that can't be
> nonchalanted away.
> Rating: Decent

The analogy didn't even register with me on the second viewing. In
fact, even after you point it out, I still don't see it.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@asmicro.com "While we live, let us live."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://www.coldservings.com -- Back from hiatus!
Updates Wednesdays

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

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Jun 29, 2007, 11:01:58 AM6/29/07
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> Hey, this one plays a lot better the second time around. Knowing that
> Chantrlilyanne has a future helps. And seeing the way this is an
> introduction to our year of identity crises, growth, and moving on

ive always wondered
whether at some point buffy chantrelle and angel compare notes
realize they all know each other pairwise

> Season Three, Episode 2: "Dead Man's Party"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>

> some serious time putting together a lengthy post; I spent a lot of
> words putting myself in Willow et al's position (Buffy's side of the
> argument is easier to see for most people, since we're following

xanders an ass

> funnier the second time around. Giles rules, especially when
> confronting Snyder. And the sequence in which we're made to empathize

ehtan calls giles the sniveling tweed clad watcher
and saying that just a role
but giles claims that is what he is now

in some scenes without the children present like the museum with acathala
it certainly seems to be what he is

but other cases where his patience wears thin
you get a flashj of how unpleasant ripper really could be

> Season Three, Episode 3: "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Faith... [drool]. This is a good one too, basically starting the S3 arc

and turns out scott hope is really gay

> while providing some quality angsting for our hero, leading up to one
> of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."

this is the first time willow is shown magic is not all sweetness light
and fluffy bunny rabbits hop hop hopping in the clover patch
that altering reality can have devastating effect

one hopes willow learns a lesson from this
and decides to be more careful in the future

> Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which Faith
> appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're episodes like
> this one that get in the way. Still not appreciating the "all men are
> beasts" theme, although at least sometimes they can be good

i regard faith as the idiot banky of this episode
(banky says all you need to turn a lesbian straight is a good deep dicking
kevin smith said he put those words in bankys mouth
because banky is an idiot and that invalidates bankys claim)
(also apparently from bankys case
all you need to turn a straight man gay is a good deep dicking)

i never regarded the episode as evil men vs good women
but rather the beast is in all of us all of the time
(as another woman would claim later on in the series)
and so thats not what matters
what matters is how we deal with it

> point where it didn't even register originally. Just not that much
> worth caring about. On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
> strong mostly dialogue-free moments, especially towards the end, and

ah
the transformative power of love
aint it sweet

maybe angel could prove his love even more by ripping out the hearts of demons
and feeding them to buffy

arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

unread,
Jun 29, 2007, 11:17:52 AM6/29/07
to
> One particular high point for me was that it was Chantlinlyanne (love
> that, BTW) that pushed "Ken" off the walkway. One of the things I like
> about Buffy is the effect she has on the people around her. Association
> with Buffy seems to bring out the best in people and they become more than
> they ever dreamed possible.

one of things that bothers me is all the humans in hell
who are already too deadened to react during the fight
and make no attempt to escape

then the entrance seals and they are stuck there till they die

> Now, on the subject of Joyce. When Buffy's packing to go again, Joyce
> immediately starts railing on her. Far from the best approach, IMO, but
> understandable. But when Buffy counters with the "You told me to."

i explain that as her evolution from the movie
in the movie buffy isnt sure if her mother even knows buffys name

then her marriage collapses and her daughter is expelled
and everything comes apart between the end of the movie and series opener
where joyce has to put her life back together
and perhaps threatened by childs welfare and a custody hearing
joyce decides to finally learn to be a mother

and hasnt really finished the lessons yet

David L. Burkhead

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Jun 29, 2007, 11:34:14 AM6/29/07
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"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-0977B...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...

> > One particular high point for me was that it was Chantlinlyanne
(love
> > that, BTW) that pushed "Ken" off the walkway. One of the things I like
> > about Buffy is the effect she has on the people around her. Association
> > with Buffy seems to bring out the best in people and they become more
than
> > they ever dreamed possible.
>
> one of things that bothers me is all the humans in hell
> who are already too deadened to react during the fight
> and make no attempt to escape

One of the realities of the show, an ugly reality but reality
nontheless, is that you can't save everyone.

> then the entrance seals and they are stuck there till they die


> > Now, on the subject of Joyce. When Buffy's packing to go again,
Joyce
> > immediately starts railing on her. Far from the best approach, IMO, but
> > understandable. But when Buffy counters with the "You told me to."
>
> i explain that as her evolution from the movie
> in the movie buffy isnt sure if her mother even knows buffys name
>
> then her marriage collapses and her daughter is expelled
> and everything comes apart between the end of the movie and series opener
> where joyce has to put her life back together
> and perhaps threatened by childs welfare and a custody hearing
> joyce decides to finally learn to be a mother

Mm. Maybe. Although in place of "movie", I'd say the "Origins" comic
which is much closer than the movie to the bits of the story we get through
the series.

BTW, when I first saw the movie 'lo these many years ago, I thought it
was lightweight fluff. Seeing the TV series encouraged me to get the movie
and try it again. Well, I still found it to be lightweight fluff (although
the look of Swanson, braless under those tight shirts at least made it
watchable).

burt...@hotmail.com

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Jun 29, 2007, 12:36:24 PM6/29/07
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On Jun 28, 10:42 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon

(snip)

> The scenes in Sunnydale that aren't the teaser or
> the last scene can still blow me, but Buffy's story is solid work.

I can't remember if you said you noticed this or not, but the scene
where everyone's back for the first day of school, where Willow goes
from the library down the hall to the lounge, is done in one single
shot. It uses multiple sets, has multiple actors coming in and out of
the shot, and it's all done in one long tracking shot with no cuts.
Very impressive work from Joss and the actors involved, IMO.

Oh, and one other thing about this episode - Buffy fights off the evil
forces oppressing the lower classes with a hammer and sickle. How's
that for symbolism?

> Thoughts?

Here's one thing I find hilarious. Angel reappears at the end of
"Faith, Hope & Trick" buck naked, back from hell and out of his mind.
Yet, between the end of that episode and the beginning of "Beauty and
the Beasts," he somehow manages to find and put on a pair of pants
despite still being all crazy and feral. Impressive, no?

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

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Jun 29, 2007, 1:25:51 PM6/29/07
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In article <7MedndVVqKz6uBjb...@giganews.com>,

"David L. Burkhead" <dbur...@sff.net> wrote:

> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-0977B...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > > One particular high point for me was that it was Chantlinlyanne
> (love
> > > that, BTW) that pushed "Ken" off the walkway. One of the things I like
> > > about Buffy is the effect she has on the people around her. Association
> > > with Buffy seems to bring out the best in people and they become more
> than
> > > they ever dreamed possible.
> >
> > one of things that bothers me is all the humans in hell
> > who are already too deadened to react during the fight
> > and make no attempt to escape
>
> One of the realities of the show, an ugly reality but reality
> nontheless, is that you can't save everyone.
>
> > then the entrance seals and they are stuck there till they die

its like watching a sinking ship
all you see is the iron hull slipping beneath the waves
silent and almost graceful

its easy to forget the humans still inside
clawing futilely at steel bulkheads to escape

> BTW, when I first saw the movie 'lo these many years ago, I thought it
> was lightweight fluff. Seeing the TV series encouraged me to get the movie
> and try it again. Well, I still found it to be lightweight fluff (although
> the look of Swanson, braless under those tight shirts at least made it
> watchable).

if i like a story i tend to see the story the writer intended
instead of what got presented

makes doctor who a better series than they could afford to film in the day

chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu

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Jun 29, 2007, 3:22:50 PM6/29/07
to
In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.

.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon

Once again I'll mention my love for all the season openers and their
various approaches to the task of introducing the season and
re-introducing the characters. I always enjoy the reveal that the woman
confronting the vampire is, hey, not Buffy but Willow. And the way her
confident act slips when it looks like the vampire will indeed come and
get it. And my personal favorite, learning that Willow has formalized a
"past tense rule" for talking about Buffy. Imagining how the Slayerette
crew developed over the summer is interesting, and probably a fertile
ground for fanfic.

> things boring for the viewer. Then it's - as it always is, they're
> contractually obligated to do this story once a year - a joy to see
> Buffy gradually begin to get her Slayer on,

"I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. And you are?" is of course a classic. But
in its quieter way, the moment before that, when the guards kill that one
kid and Buffy snaps back into (grim) life, is just as good.

> and the revolt in the hell
> factory (character-wise, if not visually) snaps nicely into place as a
> denouement for it.

Burt already mentioned the hammer and sickle. That always distracts me a
little and detracts from the fight scene. As the old SAT analogy section
would have put it, "hammer and sickle" IS TO "struggle against oppression"
AS "swastika" IS TO "German nationhood." On the other hand, Buffy's look
during the fight scene, with the simple straight hair, plain slacks and
zippered sweatshirt, is actually one of my favorites for her.

My favorite moment is the Gandhi impression. Who could fail to enjoy
something that blasphemous?

> The scenes in Sunnydale that aren't the teaser or
> the last scene can still blow me,

Eh, I liked 'em. The oner during the first day of school is both fun and
technically impressive. Cordy and Xander's non-reunion is interesting:
I get the impression that they're each uncomfortable with how much they
like the other, and that's why each waits for the other to get effusive
first. And Larry's little speech is hilarious. I also liked "depressing
night" at the Bronze and Giles' talk with Joyce. (In blaming Giles, Joyce
seems to be well aware that she's scapegoating him and he isn't the true
cause of all the trouble, but she just has to get those feelings off her
chest anyway.) But in the end, the Sunnydale scenes only amount to an
update, a rather lengthy update, on our non-Buffy cast. There isn't
enough story there to make even a B-storyline. Maybe this is one reason
AOQ doesn't like them?

Always loved the final scene. <sniff>

> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

Good for me too.

> Season Three, Episode 2: "Dead Man's Party"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.

So it turns out the group would have been better hashing out their
differences as soon as Buffy got back, instead of pretending everything
was fine now. Repression leads to exactly the kind of explosion they
probably thought they were avoiding. Fortunately, they all learn their
lesson here, and never make that mistake again....

One little bit I absolutely love is Giles in the kitchen, tearing up where
no one can see him and then regaining his composure before returning to
the kids. It's one of the best moments in an episode already filled with
great Giles moments, from "Do you like my mask?" to the confrontation with
Snyder.

The big centerpiece argument works well enough for me. Not as good as
Revelations, perhaps, but it's up there. Almost as painful-in-good-way
are the scenes before it, when Buffy tries to talk to Willow and Xander,
they can't get beyond breezy everything-is-fine chatter, and no one can
quite realize what they're doing and stop it. If only someone could have
said "All right, what's the what?" maybe they would have been able to
confess and work out their issues in a calmer way. Two hypothetical
questions: If Willow hadn't arrived just then, would Buffy actually have
run away again? And if they zombies hadn't arrived just then, would the
argument have continued spiralling out of control to the point where it
permanently damaged their relationships?

I don't think I've ever enjoyed the death of an innocent victim quite as
much as when that one zombie snapped the stoner dude's neck.

> Rating: Excellent

Can't quite go that far. The zombies were too silly-looking, there were a
few annoying sloppy bits like "dead" Pat still walking, and this was one
of the less enjoyable instances of the "overhearing only the worst part of
a conversation about you" cliche. I'll give it a Good, though.

> Season Three, Episode 3: "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: James A. Contner

.
> Faith... [drool].

What more need be said? ED is great in all her scenes (as she will be
almost every other time she appears on screen), both before and after her
breezy fun facade cracks.

As for the other characters, Scott Hope has always been one of my least
favorites. (Though he is at least more height-appropriate for Buffy than
Angel or Riley. The camera men must have appreciated that.) Mr. Trick is
a lot better, but I think he goes a little over the top during FHT; they
get the balance better in later episodes.

I wonder if Kakistos was this stupid back in his early days, before he got
so old and powerful and overconfident?

> Rating: Good

Heck, I'm considering Excellent.

> Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.

I haven't been counting, but this probably the S3 episode I've watched the
least. The main story just never really engages me. But it's not exactly
*bad*, and so calling BatB my second least-favorite episode of the season
is actually less a rip on the episode than a tribute to the season's
overall quality.

OFV Xander's excessive slackerness during Oz-watch annoyed me. It felt
like another one of those occasions where Xander is being made *too*
buffoonish, sacrificing character for plot, which is a mortal sin. But
later I decided that it actually makes sense, because over the past 3/4 of
a year, Oz-watch must have become routine and uneventful in the Scoobies'
minds. So far as we know, nothing untoward has happened during Oz's
werewolf phases. Therefore it was natural for slackerly Xander to feel
confident in going to sleep on watch, figuring that nothing will happen,
and that if Oz does start to break out of the cage it will wake him up
anyway.

*Hate* this version of the wolf costume. *Love* Willow pulling his tail
to distract him from Faith.

I actually kind of like whatsisname's look when the beast in him comes
out. Instead of just having him morph, they send him into frenzied
movement that vaguely conveys the feeling of pure rage.

So there's beast in every man, eh? I wonder if Oz's and Angel's parts
were intended as a message that the beast lurking in every man can be
*good*, if it's used properly?

> Rating: Decent

Agreed.

> Additional comments on S3D1: Ah, Season Three. Besides being glad to
> have gotten here because, well, S3 is good, was very glad to have left
> those S2 loading menus behind.

Agreed on that too. I also like the opening credits, with the new font on
the title featuring that iconic B (later seen in the "WWBD?" bumper
sticker, among many other places), and the new version of the theme song
(never really cared for the witch-shriek in the old version).
Unfortunately I have the weird early pressing of the DVDs where the old
theme song is still used on the first three episodes.


--Chris

______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jun 29, 2007, 4:05:58 PM6/29/07
to
On Jun 29, 10:01 am, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des

anges <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hey, this one plays a lot better the second time around. Knowing that
> > Chantrlilyanne has a future helps. And seeing the way this is an
> > introduction to our year of identity crises, growth, and moving on
>
> ive always wondered
> whether at some point buffy chantrelle and angel compare notes
> realize they all know each other pairwise

I don't think we ever find out for sure whether Angel remembers her.
I can see it either way. It was definitely a conscious choice to have
her not recognize him; Mere Smith says that the ATS writers talked it
over a little bit.

> > while providing some quality angsting for our hero, leading up to one
> > of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."
>
> this is the first time willow is shown magic is not all sweetness light
> and fluffy bunny rabbits hop hop hopping in the clover patch

Heh.

> that altering reality can have devastating effect
>
> one hopes willow learns a lesson from this
> and decides to be more careful in the future

I'm sure she got the message, and we won't see any trouble from her on
that front.

> > I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which Faith
> > appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're episodes like
> > this one that get in the way. Still not appreciating the "all men are
> > beasts" theme, although at least sometimes they can be good
>
> i regard faith as the idiot banky of this episode
> (banky says all you need to turn a lesbian straight is a good deep dicking
> kevin smith said he put those words in bankys mouth
> because banky is an idiot and that invalidates bankys claim)
> (also apparently from bankys case
> all you need to turn a straight man gay is a good deep dicking)

Banky turns out to be right often enough that that doesn't quite work
like it should, though (he pegs exactly the reasons things will go
wrong between Holden and Alyssa, yes?). Anyway, I wish I could go
with that rationale, but given that the original title was, in fact,
"All Men Are Beasts..."

> i never regarded the episode as evil men vs good women
> but rather the beast is in all of us all of the time
> (as another woman would claim later on in the series)
> and so thats not what matters
> what matters is how we deal with it

Marti's werewolf episodes will ultimately (thankfully) evolve the
analogy into the primal side in all of us - certainly that's the case
by the time of "Wild At Heart" - but in the earlier treatments, it's
played as more of a masculine thing.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jun 29, 2007, 4:07:18 PM6/29/07
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On Jun 29, 11:36 am, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Here's one thing I find hilarious. Angel reappears at the end of
> "Faith, Hope & Trick" buck naked, back from hell and out of his mind.
> Yet, between the end of that episode and the beginning of "Beauty and
> the Beasts," he somehow manages to find and put on a pair of pants
> despite still being all crazy and feral. Impressive, no?

I think people have mentioned that based on this and the beginning of
"Innocence," a theory developed at the time that Angel has the special
unique power of being able to summon pants in times of crisis.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jun 29, 2007, 4:27:03 PM6/29/07
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On Jun 29, 9:38 am, "David L. Burkhead" <dburkh...@sff.net> wrote:

> Now, on the subject of Joyce. When Buffy's packing to go again, Joyce
> immediately starts railing on her. Far from the best approach, IMO, but
> understandable. But when Buffy counters with the "You told me to."
> (Becomings "If you go out that door, don't even think about coming back."),
> Joyce responds heatedly with a "I handled that badly but..." without giving
> any consideration to how Buffy might feel. Bad. Bad. Bad. However, I
> can't really say whether this is "out of character" for Joyce since, again
> IMO, she's never really all that well defined as a character.

This is an urgent enough moment that she can be forgiven for the
omission, but it might be nice to see some remorse from her at some
point in the show. Agreed with the notion that Joyce is never a
particularly well defined character (and I'm discounting entirely the
character of Buffy's Mom from the movie, who can never be reconciled
with TV's Joyce Summers in my mind). This is essentially the same
situation as "Becoming II," where Buffy puts off talking to Joyce
until a time comes when everything needs to come out Right Now. Bec2
perhaps has a better premise for such a clash - the fate of the
world's at stake - but DMP does the scene better, and makes Joyce's
side work better for me.

> On the whole, my empathy is all with Buffy here. The others have
> absolutely no idea what she's been going through, and I really don't think
> Joyce had told anyone what her last words to Buffy were before Buffy left,
> especially after what she said to Giles in Anne ("I blame you.").

They're hurting too, even if they react like adolescents rather than
getting everything right. Buffy abandons them (to fight the forces of
darkness despite having no knack for it... but knowing the way the
show operates, the loss of a friend is probably more important to
them) without even letting them know if she's alive, after they
(discounting Joyce) supported her to the very end. She comes back
into town and seems to be trying to avoid the topic as much as they
are. There's the awkwardness that you mentioned as they (ineptly) try
to give her and themselves space to slowly let things get comfrotable
again, and she responds by leaving again. I feel for them at the same
time as my heart is breaking for Buffy. Have I mentioned that I
really like this episode, especially since I need to be one of its
defenders?

> > B&TB spends far too much of
> > its time on the hilariously transforming boyfriend of death and his
> > doormat, neither of whom we're inclined to care about, and pretty much
> > screws up its attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the
> > point where it didn't even register originally.
>

> The analogy didn't even register with me on the second viewing. In
> fact, even after you point it out, I still don't see it.

Well, talk to Michael Ikeda or anyone else to whom it's "obvious." In
the original review thread, Scythe Matters pointed out, in addition to
Buffy's little speech to Debbie, numerous visual cues that we're
supposed to use in order to connect Buffy's relationship with a
dangerous man that's causing her such pain with Pete and Debbie's
abusive setup. I'm literal-minded enough that the stories remain
nothing alike at all to me, and that's after knowing how it'll turn
out, and everything from later in BTVS and (especially) ATS that'll
highlight why Angel and Buffy are so wrong for each other at this
point.

-AOQ

George W Harris

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Jun 29, 2007, 4:42:42 PM6/29/07
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On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:34:14 -0400, "David L. Burkhead"
<dbur...@sff.net> wrote:

: BTW, when I first saw the movie 'lo these many years ago, I thought it


:was lightweight fluff. Seeing the TV series encouraged me to get the movie
:and try it again. Well, I still found it to be lightweight fluff (although
:the look of Swanson, braless under those tight shirts at least made it
:watchable).

As Pike said, they scoff at gravity.
:
:--

:David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"

--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jun 29, 2007, 4:48:42 PM6/29/07
to
On Jun 29, 2:22 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > things boring for the viewer. Then it's - as it always is, they're
> > contractually obligated to do this story once a year - a joy to see
> > Buffy gradually begin to get her Slayer on,
>
> "I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. And you are?" is of course a classic. But
> in its quieter way, the moment before that, when the guards kill that one
> kid and Buffy snaps back into (grim) life, is just as good.

Ripping the phone off the wall was the first one that made me grin
that way.

> I also liked "depressing
> night" at the Bronze

I always forget whether this or FH&T is the episode that features
_Angel_'s Darling Violetta. (Yes, it could very easily be looked up,
if I wanted to.)

> But in the end, the Sunnydale scenes only amount to an
> update, a rather lengthy update, on our non-Buffy cast. There isn't
> enough story there to make even a B-storyline. Maybe this is one reason
> AOQ doesn't like them?

I've heard people argue that the directionless bursts of alleged
comedy are supposed to be dissonant with the focused main story, cuz
everything's all incomplete and stuff. To me it's just dissonant cuz
it kills the momentum of the episode. It should also be mentioned
that there's a real contrast between the relatively (although
certainly not free of pain) breezy way the non-Buffys' lives are going
in "Anne" and the angstiness implied in "Dead Man's Party." My
episode bias leads to conclude that "Anne" is the problem, on account
of the fact that DMP's version more sense to me, it's a more important
plot point in that episode than this one, and, of course, the sucking-
ass factor. [Die, swelling music.]

> The big centerpiece argument works well enough for me. Not as good as
> Revelations, perhaps, but it's up there. Almost as painful-in-good-way
> are the scenes before it, when Buffy tries to talk to Willow and Xander,
> they can't get beyond breezy everything-is-fine chatter, and no one can
> quite realize what they're doing and stop it. If only someone could have
> said "All right, what's the what?" maybe they would have been able to
> confess and work out their issues in a calmer way.

And poor Buffy, drifting through the party, limited to fifteen-second
conversations with her only friends conducted through forced grins...
[sniff] (Seriously, I find it so incredibly painful to watch.)

> Two hypothetical
> questions: If Willow hadn't arrived just then, would Buffy actually have
> run away again? And if they zombies hadn't arrived just then, would the
> argument have continued spiralling out of control to the point where it
> permanently damaged their relationships?

We'll never know. I'd like to think they'd have pulled through - the
emotional connection they built during their formative years in the
first two seasons is quite strong, as seen with the various other
crises their friendship will encounter over the next five.

> As for the other characters, Scott Hope has always been one of my least
> favorites. (Though he is at least more height-appropriate for Buffy than
> Angel or Riley. The camera men must have appreciated that.)

The whole relationship with Scott is so half-baked, given that he's
one of the main character's boyfriends. He's apparently strictly
there to represent the "Hope" of moving on and/or the option of having
a "normal" love life, rather than to be a character, even if he gets
some of the good lines in B&TB.

> OFV Xander's excessive slackerness during Oz-watch annoyed me. It felt
> like another one of those occasions where Xander is being made *too*
> buffoonish, sacrificing character for plot, which is a mortal sin.

If only more fans (and writers *coughJaneandDougcough*) felt the same
way about the mortal sin thing.

> *Hate* this version of the wolf costume. *Love* Willow pulling his tail
> to distract him from Faith.

I originally read that backwards, and was confused at your strange
tastes... I hate all Buffyverse wolf costumes (the Gay Possum from
"Phases" is still worse than this, for me), especially the mid-
transformation version from "New Moon Rising"

> I actually kind of like whatsisname's look when the beast in him comes
> out. Instead of just having him morph, they send him into frenzied
> movement that vaguely conveys the feeling of pure rage.

C'mon, I can't be the only one who finds the transformation ritual
beyond hilarious.

-AOQ

David L. Burkhead

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Jun 29, 2007, 5:22:48 PM6/29/07
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"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183148823....@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 29, 9:38 am, "David L. Burkhead" <dburkh...@sff.net> wrote:
>
> > Now, on the subject of Joyce. When Buffy's packing to go again,
Joyce
> > immediately starts railing on her. Far from the best approach, IMO, but
> > understandable. But when Buffy counters with the "You told me to."
> > (Becomings "If you go out that door, don't even think about coming
back."),
> > Joyce responds heatedly with a "I handled that badly but..." without
giving
> > any consideration to how Buffy might feel. Bad. Bad. Bad. However, I
> > can't really say whether this is "out of character" for Joyce since,
again
> > IMO, she's never really all that well defined as a character.
>
> This is an urgent enough moment that she can be forgiven for the
> omission, but it might be nice to see some remorse from her at some
> point in the show. Agreed with the notion that Joyce is never a
> particularly well defined character (and I'm discounting entirely the
> character of Buffy's Mom from the movie, who can never be reconciled
> with TV's Joyce Summers in my mind). This is essentially the same
> situation as "Becoming II," where Buffy puts off talking to Joyce
> until a time comes when everything needs to come out Right Now. Bec2
> perhaps has a better premise for such a clash - the fate of the
> world's at stake - but DMP does the scene better, and makes Joyce's
> side work better for me.

I would really have liked to see "because you told me to" to have
brought her up short. Some kind of remorse later would have been #2.

> > On the whole, my empathy is all with Buffy here. The others have
> > absolutely no idea what she's been going through, and I really don't
think
> > Joyce had told anyone what her last words to Buffy were before Buffy
left,
> > especially after what she said to Giles in Anne ("I blame you.").
>
> They're hurting too, even if they react like adolescents rather than
> getting everything right. Buffy abandons them (to fight the forces of
> darkness despite having no knack for it... but knowing the way the
> show operates, the loss of a friend is probably more important to
> them) without even letting them know if she's alive, after they
> (discounting Joyce) supported her to the very end. She comes back
> into town and seems to be trying to avoid the topic as much as they
> are. There's the awkwardness that you mentioned as they (ineptly) try
> to give her and themselves space to slowly let things get comfrotable
> again, and she responds by leaving again. I feel for them at the same
> time as my heart is breaking for Buffy. Have I mentioned that I
> really like this episode, especially since I need to be one of its
> defenders?

Oh, I certainly wouldn't want to leave the impression that I was blaming
any of them (except possibly for Joyce). All their feelings are perfectly
valid given what they know at the time. And Willow seems to be the most
loyal of all, holding on, refusing to even think about Buffy in the past
tense. It's both endearing and frightening (on second viewing, where I see
what paths that same loyalty and refusal to think of Buffy as really gone
will push her on later) at the same time.

Still and all, I feel far more for Buffy. She's gone through more
heartache than any of them can even imagine. Not having been faced with,
for mere seconds, reunited with the love of my life for brief seconds and
then having to kill her (for my case) with my own hands, without even an
explanation, to save the world. Which leads me to wonder--I presume it
happens sometime offscreen, but how did Buffy explain to Angel how she had
come to say she loved him and then drive a sword through him?

> > > B&TB spends far too much of
> > > its time on the hilariously transforming boyfriend of death and his
> > > doormat, neither of whom we're inclined to care about, and pretty much
> > > screws up its attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the
> > > point where it didn't even register originally.
> >
> > The analogy didn't even register with me on the second viewing. In
> > fact, even after you point it out, I still don't see it.
>
> Well, talk to Michael Ikeda or anyone else to whom it's "obvious." In
> the original review thread, Scythe Matters pointed out, in addition to
> Buffy's little speech to Debbie, numerous visual cues that we're
> supposed to use in order to connect Buffy's relationship with a
> dangerous man that's causing her such pain with Pete and Debbie's
> abusive setup. I'm literal-minded enough that the stories remain
> nothing alike at all to me, and that's after knowing how it'll turn
> out, and everything from later in BTVS and (especially) ATS that'll
> highlight why Angel and Buffy are so wrong for each other at this
> point.

I still don't buy it. What makes the Buffy/Angel love so tragic is that
the pain Angel causes is forced on him by the terms of that curse.
What's-his-name _chooses_ to become a monster. There's just no comparison.

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

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Jun 29, 2007, 5:22:03 PM6/29/07
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> I don't think I've ever enjoyed the death of an innocent victim quite as
> much as when that one zombie snapped the stoner dude's neck.

not quite so innocent

hes the one that answered the phone
ignored giles trying to warn them
and hung up on giles calling him mr belvedere

Michael Ikeda

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Jun 29, 2007, 6:25:00 PM6/29/07
to
"David L. Burkhead" <dbur...@sff.net> wrote in
news:8sCdnW2zgd-E6hjb...@giganews.com:

The analogy isn't so much between the situations of Angel and Pete as
it is between the actions of Buffy and Debbie.

Although perhaps "Three-way comparison and contrast" (Willow/Oz,
Buffy/Angel, Debbie/Pete) would be a better phrase.

Don Sample

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Jun 29, 2007, 6:27:25 PM6/29/07
to
In article <clra83peuu5fhkedi...@4ax.com>,

George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:34:14 -0400, "David L. Burkhead"
> <dbur...@sff.net> wrote:
>
> : BTW, when I first saw the movie 'lo these many years ago, I thought it
> :was lightweight fluff. Seeing the TV series encouraged me to get the movie
> :and try it again. Well, I still found it to be lightweight fluff (although
> :the look of Swanson, braless under those tight shirts at least made it
> :watchable).
>
> As Pike said, they scoff at gravity.
> :

I think that was Pike's friend Benny.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

David L. Burkhead

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Jun 29, 2007, 8:03:54 PM6/29/07
to

Still don't buy it, but then again, I don't consider Angel and Angelus to be
the same "person." As Buffy said in LTM: "You die and a demon sets up shop
in your old house."

--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"

mailto:dbur...@sff.net "While we live, let us live."

Apteryx

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Jun 30, 2007, 4:50:39 AM6/30/07
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"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

>A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Hey, this one plays a lot better the second time around. Knowing that
> Chantrlilyanne has a future helps. And seeing the way this is an
> introduction to our year of identity crises, growth, and moving on
> definitely helps. I'm a season premiere that sets the stage for
> what's to come; and you are? But it's more than that. The L.A.
> sequences create another world compared to what the show usually dose,
> big and depressing, and keeps its characters hopeless without making
> things boring for the viewer. Then it's - as it always is, they're
> contractually obligated to do this story once a year - a joy to see
> Buffy gradually begin to get her Slayer on, and the revolt in the hell
> factory (character-wise, if not visually) snaps nicely into place as a
> denouement for it. The scenes in Sunnydale that aren't the teaser or
> the last scene can still blow me, but Buffy's story is solid work.
> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

It is necessary for the season for Buffy to start this depressed, so you
could say the epsiode takes a hit for the season. But in itself it is often
dull, with highlight moments, especially around the fightback. For me it
moved from just below the Good/Decent boundary (where it was at the time of
your original review) to just above it when I rewatched it last November,
and held that position in this viewing. It is now my 78th favourite BtVS
episode, 18th best in season 3 (last year was 80th and 18th).

More fun than the first episode, but spoiled a bit by the extreme positions
taken by the characters in their big argument. Plus, although it's a better
zombie episode than SAR, and probably better than the zombie portions of The
Zeppo, its still only a zombie episode. But I noted in commenting on your
original review that it was an episode that I seemed to upgrade slightly
each time I saw it, and that has continued. If it continued to climb in my
ratings at the same rate as it has in the past, it could reach Excellent in
15-18 years, but for now is still only Decent. It is my 99th favourite BtVS
episode, 20th best in season 3 (last year was 111th and 22nd).

> Season Three, Episode 3: "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Faith... [drool]. This is a good one too, basically starting the S3 arc
> proper while throwing in enough tie-backs to DMP to keep it (and
> "Anne") functioning as a bridge. At first I enjoyed it but wondered
> if it'd hold up if I'd been in a different mood. Now I say it's just
> good. The other new characters introduced in the title won't stick
> around for long, but Dushku comes close to stealing the show in her
> debut, with an endlessly entertaining hero who's already showing hints
> of her ultimate direction this year. The dialogue from everyone
> crackles - it's one of the more quotable episodes of BTVS -- all the
> while providing some quality angsting for our hero, leading up to one
> of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."
> Rating: Good

There is nothing bad about this episode - well except for the whole thing
with Kakistos, but that's just plot, it doesn't matter. Possibly the best
dialogue to date, everything sparkles.. I'd agree with Good, but its a good
Good. It's my 25th favourite BtVS episode, 5th best in season 3 (last year
was 35th and 7th, so that's a gain for FHT).

> Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which Faith
> appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're episodes like
> this one that get in the way. Still not appreciating the "all men are
> beasts" theme, although at least sometimes they can be good
> domesticated _White Fang_ style beasts. B&TB spends far too much of
> its time on the hilariously transforming boyfriend of death and his
> doormat, neither of whom we're inclined to care about, and pretty much
> screws up its attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the
> point where it didn't even register originally. Just not that much
> worth caring about. On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
> strong mostly dialogue-free moments, especially towards the end, and
> Oz gets a little screen time for himself, giving us a rare look into
> how he reacts when weighed down with something that can't be
> nonchalanted away.
> Rating: Decent

Pretty much agree. Obviously an important episode, with Angel's return, but
its not much fun. It's my 101st favourite BtVS episode 21st best in season 3
(last year was 101st and 20th).

--
Apteryx


Marc Espie

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Jun 30, 2007, 7:16:45 AM6/30/07
to
In article <hsCdndnbdeP2hRjb...@giganews.com>,

David L. Burkhead <dbur...@sff.net> wrote:

> Now, on the subject of Joyce. When Buffy's packing to go again, Joyce
>immediately starts railing on her. Far from the best approach, IMO, but
>understandable. But when Buffy counters with the "You told me to."
>(Becomings "If you go out that door, don't even think about coming back."),
>Joyce responds heatedly with a "I handled that badly but..." without giving
>any consideration to how Buffy might feel. Bad. Bad. Bad. However, I
>can't really say whether this is "out of character" for Joyce since, again
>IMO, she's never really all that well defined as a character.

I think that, up to a point, Buffy is narrated from the point of view of
the adolescent characters, so grown up figures like Giles and Joyce are
sometimes somewhat incoherent, this probably comes from motives that
are not perceptible from the main protagonists.

If you look at all the cues in there, Joyce is trying to have a life, to
work in a new city, with almost no relations, some necessity to get enough
income to subsidize both her and her daughter... it's probably not really
easy for her, especially with Buffy passing off as a rebel child that's
got expelled from one school already. A lot of parents would have given
up earlier, but Joyce keeps trying new things to keep her life and protect
her child. Of course it doesn't work out, because, what the hell, she's got
a *slayer* on her hand... No, I think that Joyce is a fairly consistent
character: she tries whatever she can to put some order in her life, even
though she's basically *completely* overwhelmed by what's going on.

Buffy comes violently into conflict with her mum during the earlier seasons,
and with Giles in the later seasons. At which times, some of the behavior
of the characters is `somewhat out of character'. (for instance, I'm still
not convinced about Giles not trusting Buffy more and deciding not to run
her through the insane test of the council at all).

Michael Ikeda

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Jun 30, 2007, 7:25:19 AM6/30/07
to
"David L. Burkhead" <dbur...@sff.net> wrote in
news:zJWdnRfMpo9JBhjb...@giganews.com:

Buffy is oversimplifying in LTM. There is continuity of memory and
and of the feeling of identity and the personality of the vampire
is influenced by the personality of the person. It's more accurate
to say that the vampire is a twisted version of the original
person.

Angelus is PART of Angel. Everything that makes Angelus Angelus is
still there in Angel, just controlled and rechannelled by the soul.

(Somewhat like Oz in "New Moon Rising". The wolf is still there,
still part of what Oz is, but it normally isn't in control.)

(In some sense the "New Moon Rising" Oz has become more similar to
Pete. Oz's monstrous side is now triggered by anger just as Pete's
was. With the VERY important distinction that Oz tries to keep the
wolf from surfacing, while Pete revels in the ferocity of his
monstrous side.)

One Bit Shy

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Jun 30, 2007, 11:11:14 PM6/30/07
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"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

>A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Hey, this one plays a lot better the second time around. Knowing that
> Chantrlilyanne has a future helps.

I always thought that Lily taking on Anne's identity at the end offered hope
for her, even if not certainty. It also suggested to me the hope that
Buffy's calling could have lasting impact on people beyond the life saving
of the moment. I guess Angel would have to be considered the first
character redeemed (or at least seeking redemption) through Buffy's
intervention. But might Lily be the first hint that putting people on the
path of redemption is one of Buffy's eternal qualities?


> And seeing the way this is an
> introduction to our year of identity crises, growth, and moving on
> definitely helps. I'm a season premiere that sets the stage for
> what's to come; and you are? But it's more than that. The L.A.
> sequences create another world compared to what the show usually dose,
> big and depressing, and keeps its characters hopeless without making
> things boring for the viewer. Then it's - as it always is, they're
> contractually obligated to do this story once a year - a joy to see
> Buffy gradually begin to get her Slayer on, and the revolt in the hell
> factory (character-wise, if not visually) snaps nicely into place as a
> denouement for it. The scenes in Sunnydale that aren't the teaser or
> the last scene can still blow me, but Buffy's story is solid work.
> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

I wrote a whole lot about Anne over the course of the earlier S3 discussion.
Yeah, it's about self identity - as S3 will be. And Lily serves as a
generic identity stand in for every major character in S3 BtVS. It can
still be fun to try and pick out who, most of all. I think I'd vote Faith.
Different personality of course, but only Faith is as lost as Lily. Also,
like Lily, Faith is the one who serially latches onto people who will take
her in hand. And both Faith and Lily want, in some sense at least, to
actually be Buffy. That comes clearer for Faith in S4, but I think it's
here in S3 too. Still, everybody gets a shot at being Lily this season.

I don't know if it means anything, but I think it's interesting that in
Buffy's dream Angel finds her - would find her anywhere. While nobody
else - not even Giles - is able to find her.

I noticed a couple of things about the Sunnydale side of Anne that had
eluded me before.

First there's the bit that few people seem to like about Cordelia and Xander
suddenly not being comfortable with each other when they meet up after the
summer. This time I immediately followed Anne with a rewaching of DMP and
was quickly struck with a "duh" moment. Cordelia/Xander is a simple
precurser to the awkward discomfort between Buffy and her friends when she
returns. In both cases they're aching to see each other when they're apart.
But when they actually meet up it's suddenly uncomfortable. C/X demonstrate
the natural truth of that in a very traditional school age sense.
Seperation tends to mentally distance people in a way that isn't instantly
reversed upon reconnection. For kids, summer is a kind of annual lesson in
that. It's quite traditional for beginning of school meetings to be awkward
as you find that people have changed in little ways that you don't
understand. He's dressing different. When did she get boobs? A new
boyfriend? You've decided to go vegan? It's a tense moment. Sometimes for
no reason. Sometimes for very good reason.

Another moment in Anne that really struck me was the transition from the
bustling chaotic first day of school that's so much about re-establishing
connections with everybody, to the exceedingly lonely scene of Buffy just
sitting by herself. Some of the jumps between L.A. and Sunnydale were
little more than meanwhile back on the ranch, but this one spoke volumes.
Buffy is supposed to be in the midst of that happy high school scene.
Instead she's brooding alone far, far from that life. I think it's the
gloomiest moment of the episode.

One very little thing I noticed is how enthusiasticly friendly Cordelia is
to Willow. And to a significant degree so is Willow to Cordelia, though
Cordy proves to be a bit overbearing.

I'm glad you enoyed the episode more this time. I think it's one of the
more interesting season openers from a thematic point of view, but less
interesting for its simple narrative. It ears a modest Good from me.

DMP has a couple wow moments for me. First is the reunion of Buffy with her
friends. The whole scene is terrific, but it's the expression on Xander's
face that really sells it. (Sometimes the guy can really act.) Also
wonderful in contrast is Willow's happy expression.

The second is when Buffy calls out, "Mom!" when her creepy middle aged
friend visits. As I mentioned before, I think those few seconds are when
Buffy most acts like a typical teenager in the series.

I threw out a ton of thoughts in that old discussion. (It was at the time
the most impressive review I'd seen from you. A moment when you really
captured what the show was doing - which put you several steps in front of
most.) I don't want to go there again, but I would like to mention a few of
the more organic elements of the big fight that I think are nicely done.

First is the simple and fairly obvious observation that everybody's feelings
were pent up - and shown to be. The explosive nature of the fight largely
comes from that. The relative ease at which they all get back together at
the end is also at least partly due to that as well. Once released, the
feelings aren't quite as compelling. There's room for the love again. (Not
that everything is fixed. And the larger reason for reconciliation is the
zombie fight reminding them why they were together to begin with.)

Second is noting how there's nothing like fights between best friends and
family. Nobody can make you hurt as much as the people who love you. Quite
the paradox in life, but no less true for it. That simple truth has a hell
of a lot to do with the bitter tone of this spat.

But while their intimacy puts them in touch with each other's weaknesses to
exploit, that doesn't mean that the content is untrue. The reason the barbs
of those close to you strike deep is because there's so much truth to them.
Many of the elements of this fight will return down the rode. DMP is to
some extent an extended season opener in the sense of it foreshadowing
difficulties to come. I like how this time, instead of the rehearsal format
of the prior years where versions of scenes and episodes are play-acted in
advance, we get down into people's feelings.

Giles is kind of an oddity this episode. It appears that the only thing
pent up in him is fear for Buffy's well being. His release is found simply
in her return. He isn't a bundle of resentments like everybody else is.
But what does happen to him is that he can't get through to Buffy when she's
in trouble - just as he could do nothing for her when she was in hiding -
and Buffy figures out the solution to the demon without his aid. Now
there's a portent for you. Giles will build some resentment later on - then
be humiliated and lose most everything. But most of all, he's on a path to
be ever less important and less effective as Watcher. Oh, he'll still have
his moments - as he does with Snyder this episode. But the tide has turned.
As one explores the idea more, one might get the idea that it turned when
Angel did last season. Giles was remarkebly restrained at placing any blame
on Buffy for what happened with Angelus. I think this may have been due to
a sense that he was failing as a watcher to be what Buffy needed. Inside he
must even nurse the notion that he effectively betrayed Buffy by caving to
Drusilla's Jenny trap and revealing the critical information to Angel.

I'm going rather afield there, but in S3 there's a shift with Giles that
probably starts here. Previously, Giles moved in parallel to Buffy. He was
caught in his own version of the slayer trap. His life was at peril. It
was dangerous and difficult for him to have dear friends. (See Jenny's
fate.) Aspects of that will continue. But now the emphasis moves to his
struggle to even be a watcher. Everybody else seeks their identity. Giles
already has his, but is in peril of losing it. As he fights that struggle,
there is a growing suggestion that Buffy may be the cause of it. Right now
he has no resentments. That won't always be true. Eventually he'll find
himself wearing the WC mantle, acting like he once refused to in order to
best support Buffy.
----
I appreciate your take on DMP and mostly agree with its substance. Alas, my
enjoyment of the epiosde doesn't match up to that. Much of it is an
unpleasant experience. I also find it a slow kind of dull episode. I'm
afraid it remains in the Decent category for me. Albeit a thought provoking
Decent.


> Season Three, Episode 3: "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Faith... [drool]. This is a good one too, basically starting the S3 arc
> proper while throwing in enough tie-backs to DMP to keep it (and
> "Anne") functioning as a bridge. At first I enjoyed it but wondered
> if it'd hold up if I'd been in a different mood. Now I say it's just
> good. The other new characters introduced in the title won't stick
> around for long, but Dushku comes close to stealing the show in her
> debut, with an endlessly entertaining hero who's already showing hints
> of her ultimate direction this year. The dialogue from everyone
> crackles - it's one of the more quotable episodes of BTVS -- all the
> while providing some quality angsting for our hero, leading up to one
> of the show's most sublime Big Reveals on "there is no spell."
> Rating: Good

I'm not going to expend much effort on this episode. Faith is a kick. A
wonderful debut for her. There are some nice call backs and looks ahead.
Buffy projects herself onto Faith when she lambasts Faith for running away.
There and in some other ways we quickly move to each looking at the other as
an alternate model to living and slaying. And, well, I could go on about
that, but it's been done to death and the reast of the season does it
better.

Mostly I'm not very fond of the episode. It helps set up a lot of things,
but seems rather light weight in the doing. Some viewings I'm so carried
away by Faith fun to be charitable about the episode. Today it'll have to
settle for a Decent rating.


> Season Three, Episode 4: "Beauty And The Beasts"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> I wanted to try to establish a rule that every episode in which Faith
> appears is automatically Good or higher. But there're episodes like
> this one that get in the way. Still not appreciating the "all men are
> beasts" theme, although at least sometimes they can be good
> domesticated _White Fang_ style beasts. B&TB spends far too much of
> its time on the hilariously transforming boyfriend of death and his
> doormat, neither of whom we're inclined to care about, and pretty much
> screws up its attempts to analogize them with Buffy and Angel, to the
> point where it didn't even register originally. Just not that much
> worth caring about. On the plus side, Angel's return gives some
> strong mostly dialogue-free moments, especially towards the end, and
> Oz gets a little screen time for himself, giving us a rare look into
> how he reacts when weighed down with something that can't be
> nonchalanted away.
> Rating: Decent

I don't think I have anything to add to my original posting. I'll mention
that one of Scythe's best posts was his analysis of how Debbie/Pete compare
to Buffy/Angel.

Still a Good from me. I still laugh at Giles's tranquilizer gun induced
fall and Willow pulling Were-Oz's tail.


OBS


(Harmony) Watcher

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Jun 30, 2007, 11:47:09 PM6/30/07
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"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: These threads don't have a deck. They have a three.
>
>
>
>
I have a question on this episode since the first time I watched it, and
have never gotten around to ask it. Maybe someone can help me out. What
happened to Pat the zombie queen? Didn't Buffy poked at her zombie eyes? I
would presume she would be dead. How did they get rid of her body?

--
==Harmony Watcher==


mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

unread,
Jun 30, 2007, 11:58:33 PM6/30/07
to
> I have a question on this episode since the first time I watched it, and
> have never gotten around to ask it. Maybe someone can help me out. What
> happened to Pat the zombie queen? Didn't Buffy poked at her zombie eyes? I
> would presume she would be dead. How did they get rid of her body?

shes dead jim

she died earlier in the attack (broken neck?)
all the zombies vaporized
simplifying the clean up

(Harmony) Watcher

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Jul 1, 2007, 12:25:42 AM7/1/07
to

"Michael Ikeda" <mmi...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:Bo6dneLaG5UCoBvb...@rcn.net...
Indeed, Angel and Angelus are not two separate entities. The differences in
their outward behavior is observable, but we must not forget that Angel =
Liam's soul + demon, both inside Liam's husk. The demon is somehow
temporarily repressed from being the one who's calling the shots.

What Buffy knew about the history of vamps at that time must have been only
Giles-taught, and she is just regurgitating Watchers' dogma. With her own
emotional confusion about Angel, Buffy is oversimplifying by a mile when she
tries to draw a sharp line of distinction between Angel and Angelus.

Since David (Burkehead) has already seen Redefinition in AtS, I wont rot13
this. I think it is quite clear that the walking and talking Angel does not
even believe that there is always a sharp line between the "Angel" and
"Angelus". IIRC, Darla first called the demon + Liam's husk "Angel" which
means the same thing as "Angelus" in another language.

--
==Harmony Watcher==


(Harmony) Watcher

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Jul 1, 2007, 12:47:08 AM7/1/07
to

"Marc Espie" <es...@lain.home> wrote in message
news:f65e2t$2lti$1...@biggoron.nerim.net...
Agreed.

--
==Harmony Watcher==


(Harmony) Watcher

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Jul 1, 2007, 1:01:08 AM7/1/07
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<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:138an0a...@corp.supernews.com...
... until Spike came along in S4, and tried to drive wedges between the
Scoobies. I think they almost didn't learn the lesson.

--
==Harmony Watcher==


(Harmony) Watcher

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Jul 1, 2007, 1:03:56 AM7/1/07
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"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-DFF57...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...

> > I have a question on this episode since the first time I watched it, and
> > have never gotten around to ask it. Maybe someone can help me out. What
> > happened to Pat the zombie queen? Didn't Buffy poked at her zombie eyes?
I
> > would presume she would be dead. How did they get rid of her body?
>
> shes dead jim
>
> she died earlier in the attack (broken neck?)
> all the zombies vaporized
> simplifying the clean up
>
Thanks. I guess there were no worthy CSIs back then, :)

--
==Harmony Watcher==


Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jul 1, 2007, 2:18:04 AM7/1/07
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On Jun 30, 3:50 am, "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> Plus, although it's a better
> zombie episode than SAR, and probably better than the zombie portions of The
> Zeppo, its still only a zombie episode.

To be fair, although the zombie guy in SAR pretty much acts like a
stereotypical zombie, it'd be more accurate to judge him as a
Frankenstein's-creature type character than a zombie.

But I noted in commenting on your
> original review that it was an episode that I seemed to upgrade slightly
> each time I saw it, and that has continued. If it continued to climb in my
> ratings at the same rate as it has in the past, it could reach Excellent in
> 15-18 years, but for now is still only Decent.

Go DMP! Keep chasing that dream!

> It is my 99th favourite BtVS
> episode, 20th best in season 3 (last year was 111th and 22nd).

No longer the worst of S3 for you, huh? (And as you said at the time,
given that S3 rocks fairly consistently, no shame in that anyway.) So
what's the new least-good show of the year? (Well, I guess the rest
of us will soon find out.)

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality

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Jul 1, 2007, 2:49:12 AM7/1/07
to
On Jun 30, 10:11 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> I always thought that Lily taking on Anne's identity at the end offered hope


> for her, even if not certainty. It also suggested to me the hope that
> Buffy's calling could have lasting impact on people beyond the life saving
> of the moment. I guess Angel would have to be considered the first
> character redeemed (or at least seeking redemption) through Buffy's
> intervention. But might Lily be the first hint that putting people on the
> path of redemption is one of Buffy's eternal qualities?

That's kind of the original concept for Angel's show, interestingly.
He'd fight the literal monsters, and set the guest star of the week on
the path to taking their lives into their own hands. As for results,
well,we've had fun comparing the fates of the people Angel tries to
help (operative word being "tries") compared to Buffy.

> I noticed a couple of things about the Sunnydale side of Anne that had
> eluded me before.
>
> First there's the bit that few people seem to like about Cordelia and Xander
> suddenly not being comfortable with each other when they meet up after the
> summer. This time I immediately followed Anne with a rewaching of DMP and
> was quickly struck with a "duh" moment. Cordelia/Xander is a simple
> precurser to the awkward discomfort between Buffy and her friends when she
> returns. In both cases they're aching to see each other when they're apart.
> But when they actually meet up it's suddenly uncomfortable. C/X demonstrate
> the natural truth of that in a very traditional school age sense.
> Seperation tends to mentally distance people in a way that isn't instantly
> reversed upon reconnection. For kids, summer is a kind of annual lesson in
> that. It's quite traditional for beginning of school meetings to be awkward
> as you find that people have changed in little ways that you don't
> understand. He's dressing different. When did she get boobs? A new
> boyfriend? You've decided to go vegan? It's a tense moment. Sometimes for
> no reason. Sometimes for very good reason.

That's kind of one of my problems with that whole sequence. The setup
before their meeting is actually really good; I'm bubbling with
nervous excitement about seeing him/her again after months apart. S/
he's a bright spot in my life, no matter how much the me of a year ago
tells me that I "shouldn't" be in love like this. My excitement's
tempered by the fact that I'm kinda terrified that things won't be the
same anymore. Then we actually get the meeting, and it's not
discomfort so much as an alleged "comedy" of stupidity. As usual for
Xander and Cordelia, the actors over-act everything (doubtless with
Joss cheering them on) to the point of cartoonishness, and their
reconciliation is a re-enactment of their ridiculous first kiss from
WML2. It reinforces the impression that nothing about this
relationship is meant to be taken seriously, it's nothing more than a
parody of teenage silliness. And I don't really take kindly to main
characters with the potential for depth being used exclusively as
jokes (not that Cordelia was much beyond a joke to begin with). Thank
Cthulhu we're almost done with this arc, because it's never done
anything for me.

> But while their intimacy puts them in touch with each other's weaknesses to
> exploit, that doesn't mean that the content is untrue. The reason the barbs
> of those close to you strike deep is because there's so much truth to them.
> Many of the elements of this fight will return down the rode. DMP is to
> some extent an extended season opener in the sense of it foreshadowing
> difficulties to come. I like how this time, instead of the rehearsal format
> of the prior years where versions of scenes and episodes are play-acted in
> advance, we get down into people's feelings.

Good point. It successfully juggles the tasks of paving the road over
enough to continue with the season, establishing stuff that'll come
into play down the road, all the while organically creating a crisis
that feels urgent in the now.

> I'm going rather afield there, but in S3 there's a shift with Giles that
> probably starts here. Previously, Giles moved in parallel to Buffy. He was
> caught in his own version of the slayer trap. His life was at peril. It
> was dangerous and difficult for him to have dear friends. (See Jenny's
> fate.) Aspects of that will continue. But now the emphasis moves to his
> struggle to even be a watcher. Everybody else seeks their identity. Giles
> already has his, but is in peril of losing it. As he fights that struggle,
> there is a growing suggestion that Buffy may be the cause of it. Right now
> he has no resentments. That won't always be true. Eventually he'll find
> himself wearing the WC mantle, acting like he once refused to in order to
> best support Buffy.

One thing I haven't really thought about much beyond reading your
posts is the notion that Giles as a father figure for Buffy is
something established in the first two seasons, so that we can see
that he's not right for that role starting with S3. That would
theoretically make this year an important one for exploring the ways
in which he's perhaps flawed and perhaps different than we thought he
was (as opposed to S6/7, where I'm bothered by what I can't see as
anything other than a concerted and deliberate attempt to fully
undermine the character's integrity). We'll have to keep an eye on
him throughout the year. "Helpless" comes to mind, but nothing else
jumps out at me right now. Where does S4 fit in, it's what's
basically an identity crisis story? In fact, in FH&T, he's right on
top of things in terms of interacting with his Slayer, and has got the
closest thing to a cure for what's ailing Buffy as can be said to
exist.

> Mostly I'm not very fond of the episode. It helps set up a lot of things,
> but seems rather light weight in the doing. Some viewings I'm so carried
> away by Faith fun to be charitable about the episode. Today it'll have to
> settle for a Decent rating.

To me, FH&T also achieves its goal of being entertaining and important
in the present at the same time as it's setting stuff up. In fact, if
"Anne" and DMP feel (especially before one understands the
foreshadowing) like still doing clean-up from the after-effects of S2,
this episode shows the last tangible steps to fully moving on while
introducing the beginnings of a new story. It has the momentum
factor, like it's part of something both big and new.

-AOQ

(Harmony) Watcher

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Jul 1, 2007, 5:40:43 AM7/1/07
to

"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-DFF57...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > I have a question on this episode since the first time I watched it, and
> > have never gotten around to ask it. Maybe someone can help me out. What
> > happened to Pat the zombie queen? Didn't Buffy poked at her zombie eyes?
I
> > would presume she would be dead. How did they get rid of her body?
>
> shes dead jim
>
> she died earlier in the attack (broken neck?)
> all the zombies vaporized
> simplifying the clean up
>
Hey, wait a minute. I do not remember seeing any "poofing" of zombies. Did I
miss something?

--
==Harmony Watcher==


Michael Ikeda

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Jul 1, 2007, 8:16:59 AM7/1/07
to
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote in
news:vEKhi.76569$NV3.47377@pd7urf2no:

Yes.

When Buffy killed the zombie god, all of the zombies vanished
(including Pat).

chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu

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Jul 1, 2007, 11:19:00 AM7/1/07
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In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

>> I also liked "depressing
>> night" at the Bronze
>
> I always forget whether this or FH&T is the episode that features
> _Angel_'s Darling Violetta. (Yes, it could very easily be looked up,
> if I wanted to.)

In case you haven't gotten the urge to look it up, Darling Violetta
appears in FH&T. The Anne band is called Bellylove. (Presumably because
their bellies are the very *first* of their bodily parts that people
notice....)

> I've heard people argue that the directionless bursts of alleged
> comedy are supposed to be dissonant with the focused main story, cuz
> everything's all incomplete and stuff. To me it's just dissonant cuz
> it kills the momentum of the episode. It should also be mentioned
> that there's a real contrast between the relatively (although
> certainly not free of pain) breezy way the non-Buffys' lives are going
> in "Anne" and the angstiness implied in "Dead Man's Party." My
> episode bias leads to conclude that "Anne" is the problem, on account
> of the fact that DMP's version more sense to me, it's a more important
> plot point in that episode than this one, and, of course, the sucking-
> ass factor. [Die, swelling music.]

The above-mentioned theory about deliberate dissonance may have some
merit. But I suspect the contrast in mood between the Buffy scenes and the
Sunnydale scenes mostly came about because Joss just didn't want to make
the whole season premiere a moody downer. There are plenty of hints at
the pain Buffy's friends have been feeling, but we spend more time on the
humorous side of Xander and Cordy's reunion, simply as comic relief. (Not
saying you have to like it, of course, just speculating about *why* the
Slayerette scenes are slanted toward the breezy side.)

> The whole relationship with Scott is so half-baked, given that he's
> one of the main character's boyfriends. He's apparently strictly
> there to represent the "Hope" of moving on and/or the option of having
> a "normal" love life, rather than to be a character, even if he gets
> some of the good lines in B&TB.

I guess this false Hope also serves to remind us of how much killing Angel
still weighs on Buffy's mind (in case we needed another reminder), and how
it will handicap her attempts to have that elusive "normal" love life.
This is clearest in the scene where Scott gives Buffy that friendship
ring. (Personally, I think rings have too many serious implications to
make good gifts so early in a relationship. Unless maybe they're jokey
plastic skull rings with flashing red eyes.)

>> *Hate* this version of the wolf costume. *Love* Willow pulling his tail
>> to distract him from Faith.
>
> I originally read that backwards, and was confused at your strange
> tastes...

I like to call myself weird. But could anyone really be *that* weird?

>> I actually kind of like whatsisname's look when the beast in him comes
>> out. Instead of just having him morph, they send him into frenzied
>> movement that vaguely conveys the feeling of pure rage.
>
> C'mon, I can't be the only one who finds the transformation ritual
> beyond hilarious.

Well, okay, I admit it: it's hilarious too. But I still appreciate what
they were trying with the enraged head-shaking.

chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu

unread,
Jul 1, 2007, 11:25:40 AM7/1/07
to
In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:

>> > Season Three, Episode 2: "Dead Man's Party"
>> > Writer: Marti Noxon
>> > Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>>
>> So it turns out the group would have been better hashing out their
>> differences as soon as Buffy got back, instead of pretending everything
>> was fine now. Repression leads to exactly the kind of explosion they
>> probably thought they were avoiding. Fortunately, they all learn their
>> lesson here, and never make that mistake again....
>>
> ... until Spike came along in S4, and tried to drive wedges between the
> Scoobies. I think they almost didn't learn the lesson.

As a brilliant young woman once said, "I was being sarcastic!" They will
make this same mistake again numerous times over the next five years --
the Spike-exacerbated blowup in S4 is only the most extreme example.

Apteryx

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Jul 2, 2007, 1:34:58 AM7/2/07
to
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183270684.5...@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

Not necessarily :)

I haven't checked, but it is entirely possible that there were some seasons
for which I didn't name a "22nd best" on your original reviews, if you go by
just my comments on each episode. That is because my ratings are always
contestable, and it is always possible that an early episode that is named
as 20th or 21st best at the time I commented on it is actually 22nd by the
time of your review of the last episode of that season. That is certainly
possible in this case, as the difference between my current 22nd and Beauty
and the Beasts (currently 21st) is pretty small, and the current 22nd could
easily overtake Beauty and the Beasts when I next watch it.

And that would be pretty appropriate in this case, as no episode of season 3
really deserves the opprobrium of being named worst in the season.

--
Apteryx


...did anyone else just go... (Colossale)

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Jul 2, 2007, 3:53:07 AM7/2/07
to
Apteryx <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> > Season Three, Episode 2: "Dead Man's Party"
> > Writer: Marti Noxon
> > Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
> >
> > This one has a lot of happy NG-related memories, since it spawned one

> > [cut]
> > Rating: Excellent

I never liked the writing in that one very much, but the Oingo
Boingo/Danny Elfman reference ("Dead Man's Party") is a major bonus.


--
I had this recurring dream / I was living another life
In another country / In another time / As I got older
The dream began to fade away / Until one day...
There she was... tapping me on my shoulder - Hogarth 2004

chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu

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Jul 2, 2007, 12:38:44 PM7/2/07
to
In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer ...did anyone else just go... (Colossale) <pikkio....@ranocch.io> wrote:

>
> I never liked the writing in that one very much, but the Oingo
> Boingo/Danny Elfman reference ("Dead Man's Party") is a major bonus.

Agreed there. Though I think my favorite Oingo Boingo song is "No One
Lives Forever." That one could have been referenced in any number of
Buffy episodes.

Does anyone know if Joss himself was the Oingo Boingo fan, or was it
someone else at Mutant Enemy?

chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu

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Jul 2, 2007, 1:35:20 PM7/2/07
to
In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:

>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
>> Writer: Joss Whedon
>> Director: Joss Whedon

.
> I don't know if it means anything, but I think it's interesting that in
> Buffy's dream Angel finds her - would find her anywhere. While nobody
> else - not even Giles - is able to find her.

That bit always struck me mainly as an indication of Buffy's obsession
over what happened with Angel, and her feelings of guilt for it. Her
dream is telling her that she'll always be haunted by those events, no
matter what she does or how far she runs. Note that this dream has the
same basic structure as the more overtly horrifying one in FH&T: it starts
off by reuniting Buffy with her lost love, then shifts to him reminding
her that she killed him.


>> Season Three, Episode 2: "Dead Man's Party"
>> Writer: Marti Noxon
>> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.

.


> DMP has a couple wow moments for me. First is the reunion of Buffy with her
> friends. The whole scene is terrific, but it's the expression on Xander's
> face that really sells it. (Sometimes the guy can really act.) Also
> wonderful in contrast is Willow's happy expression.

Both complemented nicely by Cordelia's mildly surprised, mildly pleased,
extremely casual greeting: "Oh, hey, Buffy." (Come to think of it, Cordy
didn't even ask if Buffy had returned when she first talked to Willow in
Anne. But on the other hand, Cordy does claim that she's joining the
vampire hunt for Buffy's sake, so maybe on some level she does care.)

> First is the simple and fairly obvious observation that everybody's feelings
> were pent up - and shown to be. The explosive nature of the fight largely
> comes from that. The relative ease at which they all get back together at
> the end is also at least partly due to that as well. Once released, the
> feelings aren't quite as compelling. There's room for the love again.

Perhaps comparable to Buffy confessing her problems to Giles in Grave.
Once she gets that off her chest (and once Giles responds with laughter
instead of either anger or excessive sympathy), the ice is finally broken
and she can start healing herself.

> I'm going rather afield there, but in S3 there's a shift with Giles that
> probably starts here. Previously, Giles moved in parallel to Buffy. He was
> caught in his own version of the slayer trap. His life was at peril. It
> was dangerous and difficult for him to have dear friends. (See Jenny's
> fate.) Aspects of that will continue. But now the emphasis moves to his
> struggle to even be a watcher. Everybody else seeks their identity. Giles
> already has his, but is in peril of losing it. As he fights that struggle,
> there is a growing suggestion that Buffy may be the cause of it. Right now
> he has no resentments. That won't always be true. Eventually he'll find
> himself wearing the WC mantle, acting like he once refused to in order to
> best support Buffy.

Interesting thoughts, worth keeping in mind as we go through the series
again. I don't have any big thoughts on the subject myself, but you have
provoked a couple of little thoughts. First, in seasons 4 through 6, Giles
struggles to build a personal life for himself outside of Watcherhood.
This is not too dissimilar from Buffy's struggle to have a life in season
1 and 2. Giles winds up where Buffy started. (And in struggling to
figure out how to both lead and empower a bunch of future Slayers, Buffy
in season 7 kind of winds up where Giles started.) Second, maybe Giles's
journey throughout S3 and after is just The Dark Age writ large: the
father figure reveals his human flaws and, while not losing his daughter
figure's respect, is demoted from leader to something closer to a peer.
Third, while Giles's story stops moving in parallel to Buffy's, until
season 7 his big developments are almost always reactions to events in
Buffy's life: her Crucimentum get him fired, she quits the Watchers'
Council, she gets involved with Riley and needs the others less, she
decides she needs a Watcher after all, she dies, and so on.

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

unread,
Jul 2, 2007, 2:16:30 PM7/2/07
to
In article <138idqo...@corp.supernews.com>,
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:

> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >> Season Three, Episode 1: "Anne"
> >> Writer: Joss Whedon
> >> Director: Joss Whedon
> .
> > I don't know if it means anything, but I think it's interesting that in
> > Buffy's dream Angel finds her - would find her anywhere. While nobody
> > else - not even Giles - is able to find her.
>
> That bit always struck me mainly as an indication of Buffy's obsession
> over what happened with Angel, and her feelings of guilt for it. Her
> dream is telling her that she'll always be haunted by those events, no
> matter what she does or how far she runs. Note that this dream has the
> same basic structure as the more overtly horrifying one in FH&T: it starts
> off by reuniting Buffy with her lost love, then shifts to him reminding
> her that she killed him.

when he confronts her at the end of beauty and the beasts
buffy starts with no idea what she is facing
he just killed the other student
is there anything remotely human inside?
is he so angry with her that he will instantly turn on her to destroy her?
she has been preparing herself all summer to face to his rage

instead he drops to the floor wanting only to forgive and be forgiven

One Bit Shy

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Jul 2, 2007, 9:35:45 PM7/2/07
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<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:138fhf4...@corp.supernews.com...

> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:


>> I've heard people argue that the directionless bursts of alleged
>> comedy are supposed to be dissonant with the focused main story, cuz
>> everything's all incomplete and stuff. To me it's just dissonant cuz
>> it kills the momentum of the episode. It should also be mentioned
>> that there's a real contrast between the relatively (although
>> certainly not free of pain) breezy way the non-Buffys' lives are going
>> in "Anne" and the angstiness implied in "Dead Man's Party." My
>> episode bias leads to conclude that "Anne" is the problem, on account
>> of the fact that DMP's version more sense to me, it's a more important
>> plot point in that episode than this one, and, of course, the sucking-
>> ass factor. [Die, swelling music.]
>
> The above-mentioned theory about deliberate dissonance may have some
> merit. But I suspect the contrast in mood between the Buffy scenes and the
> Sunnydale scenes mostly came about because Joss just didn't want to make
> the whole season premiere a moody downer. There are plenty of hints at
> the pain Buffy's friends have been feeling, but we spend more time on the
> humorous side of Xander and Cordy's reunion, simply as comic relief. (Not
> saying you have to like it, of course, just speculating about *why* the
> Slayerette scenes are slanted toward the breezy side.)

Joss certainly is big on comic relief. (There's a fair amount in the Anne
part as it is.) But I don't think he needs anything as extensive as this to
accomplish it. I believe the broad point is simply that Buffy is out of
place - that she really belongs in Sunnydale. The fact that the Scoobies
miss her is a relatively small part of that point. The greater one is to
use the contrast to demonstrate that L.A. is the wrong place. We can see
she doesn't belong there - isn't happy there - has no purpose or identity
there. That sense is all that much stronger when we're constantly nagged
with where she does belong, where she does have purpose and identity.

Joss doesn't dwell on the explanation - the existance of the contrast
probably is sufficient. But one could easily imagine the notion being
extended. For example, Buffy is probably aware that school would be
starting a new year then and could easily be imagining what's going on -
what she's rejected - not so different from what we see. In a sense, those
scenes are kind of call to her to come home.

In L.A. Lily performs the same function directly by stubbornly intruding
into her exile - in a rather jarring fashion to Buffy. Insisting that she
recapture her purpose and identity.

The hell she is sent to is pretty dissonant in itself, litterly beating her
into submission - or, as it turns out, into bringing back out the slayer she
really is. All of these in their ways are external forces demanding that
she pull herself out of her funk and fulfill her calling. There's no
escaping she's Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

----

The Sunnydale scenes also do a little house cleaning. Help set up Giles and
Joyce. Help set up the notion that Giles can't always help Buffy. Set up
that post-summer reunions can be hard. Prolly some other stuff I'm not
remembering.


OBS


One Bit Shy

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Jul 2, 2007, 10:16:43 PM7/2/07
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"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183272552.3...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 30, 10:11 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1183099341....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> As usual for


> Xander and Cordelia, the actors over-act everything (doubtless with
> Joss cheering them on) to the point of cartoonishness, and their
> reconciliation is a re-enactment of their ridiculous first kiss from
> WML2. It reinforces the impression that nothing about this
> relationship is meant to be taken seriously, it's nothing more than a
> parody of teenage silliness. And I don't really take kindly to main
> characters with the potential for depth being used exclusively as
> jokes (not that Cordelia was much beyond a joke to begin with). Thank
> Cthulhu we're almost done with this arc, because it's never done
> anything for me.

I won't dispute that. I like Anne, but it's far from perfect. While I
understand the intent of the X/C part better now, I still think it's a bit
ham-handed. And as for their arc - I like S2's version a lot more than you,
but I think it lets down a lot this season. Cordy has moments, but I feel
like she's jammed into them for the moment and then ignored. Soon enough
it'll all be about positioning her for AtS.


>> I'm going rather afield there, but in S3 there's a shift with Giles that
>> probably starts here. Previously, Giles moved in parallel to Buffy. He
>> was
>> caught in his own version of the slayer trap. His life was at peril. It
>> was dangerous and difficult for him to have dear friends. (See Jenny's
>> fate.) Aspects of that will continue. But now the emphasis moves to his
>> struggle to even be a watcher. Everybody else seeks their identity.
>> Giles
>> already has his, but is in peril of losing it. As he fights that
>> struggle,
>> there is a growing suggestion that Buffy may be the cause of it. Right
>> now
>> he has no resentments. That won't always be true. Eventually he'll find
>> himself wearing the WC mantle, acting like he once refused to in order to
>> best support Buffy.
>
> One thing I haven't really thought about much beyond reading your
> posts is the notion that Giles as a father figure for Buffy is
> something established in the first two seasons,

I'm probably a lousy reference for that subject because I never liked
pushing him into father figure. Lets say I'm biased. I quietly cheer when
Helpless pointedly has him turn from father role. That doesn't mean he
doesn't care for Buffy - Helpless also refutes that pretty strongly.


> so that we can see
> that he's not right for that role starting with S3. That would
> theoretically make this year an important one for exploring the ways
> in which he's perhaps flawed and perhaps different than we thought he
> was (as opposed to S6/7, where I'm bothered by what I can't see as
> anything other than a concerted and deliberate attempt to fully
> undermine the character's integrity).

I think this helps clarify why he might act as he does in S6/7 - or at least
rationalize it. But that has its limits. As you may recall, I struggled
pretty mightily with his behavior in those two seasons myself. With massive
fan wanking effort I sort of came to peace with him leaving in S6.
S7... -er- no.


> We'll have to keep an eye on
> him throughout the year. "Helpless" comes to mind, but nothing else
> jumps out at me right now. Where does S4 fit in, it's what's
> basically an identity crisis story? In fact, in FH&T, he's right on
> top of things in terms of interacting with his Slayer, and has got the
> closest thing to a cure for what's ailing Buffy as can be said to
> exist.

It's not instantaneous. Giles has very good moments. And will in future
years. FH&T is one of the good ones. But that's not a father at work
there. It's the kind of manipulation that a mentor does - or a coach - or a
director (which Joss would be familiar with).

I don't recall a lot on the father figure front this year - except for
Helpless. I think we'll have to wait for S5 to revisit that. S3 I think
goes more to a declining ability to aid Buffy and Buffy increasingly taking
charge. (Which, after all, is an important part of her developoment.) Much
of that is Buffy seizing control and initiative. But I think, from Giles's
perspective anyway, some of it is Giles falling short. Helpless is
devastating that way - getting rebuked by both Buffy and the WC.
Revelations may have some of that too. Xander's come uppance is the more
obvious story, but Giles gets a little humiliation there too.

Well, we'll see.


>
>> Mostly I'm not very fond of the episode. It helps set up a lot of
>> things,
>> but seems rather light weight in the doing. Some viewings I'm so carried
>> away by Faith fun to be charitable about the episode. Today it'll have
>> to
>> settle for a Decent rating.
>
> To me, FH&T also achieves its goal of being entertaining and important
> in the present at the same time as it's setting stuff up. In fact, if
> "Anne" and DMP feel (especially before one understands the
> foreshadowing) like still doing clean-up from the after-effects of S2,
> this episode shows the last tangible steps to fully moving on while
> introducing the beginnings of a new story. It has the momentum
> factor, like it's part of something both big and new.

Fair enough. Maybe it's too many watchings of it weighing in - though I
don't think I ever truly loved it. <shrug> It's early. The really, really
good stuff comes soon enough.

OBS


...did anyone else just go... (Colossale)

unread,
Jul 3, 2007, 3:50:31 AM7/3/07
to
<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote:

> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer ...did anyone else just go... (Colossale)
> <pikkio....@ranocch.io> wrote:
>
> >
> > I never liked the writing in that one very much, but the Oingo
> > Boingo/Danny Elfman reference ("Dead Man's Party") is a major bonus.
>
> Agreed there.

> Though I think my favorite Oingo Boingo song is "No One
> Lives Forever."

Actually, I think there are too many Boingo songs to die for to pick
just one, especially given the broad scope of the band, you know, from
sarcasm-fueled social commentary (Only A Lad - killer track, btw) to
schizo-dreamy romantic melancholic inspection of out deeper feelings or
whatever you want to call it (Good for your Soul).

> That one could have been referenced in any number of
> Buffy episodes.

Yeah, and so do a huge pile of songs. The first that comes to my mind is
Good For Your Soul <=> Doppelgangland (killer song, killer episode).

> Does anyone know if Joss himself was the Oingo Boingo fan, or was it
> someone else at Mutant Enemy?

Dunno, but it would not surprise me at all if it was Joss himself: he is
a huge all-around rock fan, as the frequent references peeks into the
music world suggest.
And Giles' record collection, of course.

P.s.: Sorry, I haven't had my usual dozen cups of coffee AND my English
sucks anyway, so the whole shebang could easily be riddled of mistakes.
Please don't be too hard on me.

Michael Ikeda

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Jul 3, 2007, 6:18:37 PM7/3/07
to
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:138jccm...@news.supernews.com:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1183272552.3...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

>
>

>> so that we can see
>> that he's not right for that role starting with S3. That would
>> theoretically make this year an important one for exploring the
>> ways in which he's perhaps flawed and perhaps different than we
>> thought he was (as opposed to S6/7, where I'm bothered by what
>> I can't see as anything other than a concerted and deliberate
>> attempt to fully undermine the character's integrity).
>
> I think this helps clarify why he might act as he does in S6/7 -
> or at least rationalize it. But that has its limits. As you
> may recall, I struggled pretty mightily with his behavior in
> those two seasons myself. With massive fan wanking effort I
> sort of came to peace with him leaving in S6.
> S7... -er- no.
>

I've never had any trouble with Giles' characterization in either
Season 6 or 7.

In Season 6 he honestly believes (with some evidence) that his
presence is keeping Buffy from dealing with her situation.

In Season 7, Giles is not only in an unfamiliar situation, he has
suddenly effectively become the Watcher's Council. Both of which
tend to influence him in a more "traditional" direction. Which is
why his attitude is more Season Oneish, at least with respect to
the Potentials.

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

unread,
Jul 3, 2007, 7:17:18 PM7/3/07
to
In article <67OdnR9DjKygVhfb...@rcn.net>,
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:

the only season seven issue seem to be lies my parent told me
where buffy and apparently most of the audience feels he betrayed her

it would be interesting to have gotten his reaction at the end of the episode
when spike had been successfully detriggered (hiyo silver)

at the beginning of that episode giles is right and buffy is wrong
and the end of the episode is buffy is right abd we dont know where files is
(robin is of course in the wrong throughout)

One Bit Shy

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Jul 3, 2007, 7:54:50 PM7/3/07
to
"Michael Ikeda" <mmi...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:67OdnR9DjKygVhfb...@rcn.net...

Well, I don't think I'm up for the details here, but yes, my problems would
center on his leaving in S6 and his scheme to kill Spike in S7 - though the
behavior is a little broader than that. Especially in S7. Broadly
speaking, I think his limits as father figure that start getting explored in
S3 do a lot to explain S6. And his struggle to hold onto his watcher
identity that also starts in S3 explains much of S7. Alas, I don't find
that terribly satisfactory. To me it also requires a reduction in
perception and a forgetting of what he's learned from and about Buffy. Some
other stuff too, but not now.

OBS


Daniel Damouth

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Jul 3, 2007, 9:24:32 PM7/3/07
to
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:138jccm...@news.supernews.com:
[...]

>> One thing I haven't really thought about much beyond reading your
>> posts is the notion that Giles as a father figure for Buffy is
>> something established in the first two seasons,
>
> I'm probably a lousy reference for that subject because I never
> liked pushing him into father figure. Lets say I'm biased. I
> quietly cheer when Helpless pointedly has him turn from father
> role. That doesn't mean he doesn't care for Buffy - Helpless also
> refutes that pretty strongly.

What are you saying? I thought Helpless clearly established that Giles
had a father's love for Buffy -- not just because the council stated it
directly, but in his actions once he'd decided to stop the test.

-Dan Damouth

One Bit Shy

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Jul 4, 2007, 12:55:08 AM7/4/07
to

"Daniel Damouth" <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9962BB418DAF...@66.250.146.128...

Giles loves Buffy. I'm not disputing that. And in Helpless, his love for
her leads him to reject the Council's wishes, and give him insight into the
bankrupt ways of the Council in the process. But while there may be a kind
of equivalence to a father's love - the relationship between Watcher and
Slayer would often be intense I think - I don't see that as being the same
as being father. The Watcher crafts the Slayer - something Giles is
dedicated to with love and unusual consideration for Buffy - but he doesn't
rear the child. Or at least Giles doesn't. What Giles will show
persistently is a discomfort and even dislike for getting into family type
things. He's only truly comfortable with the more formal teacher student
relationship - however close that may be.

Previously that wasn't clear. In S2 Giles appeared to be moving into a very
fatherly role. The same level of intimacy wasn't quite reached in early S3,
but some of the trappings were present, such as in his dealings with Joyce -
which tried to move towards working together jointly.

But in Helpless, when we see Buffy's father blow off his time with her, we
then see Buffy reach out to Giles and have him essentially ignore the
suggestion of doing something together that wasn't business. Buffy even
speaks of it as something families do together. Not a peep from Giles.
Granted, at the time Giles was in the middle of his deception. But he never
does go to the ice show with her or anything like it that I can think of.
An invisible line is drawn in this episode I believe. One that will rarely
and only very temporarily be crossed. Giles would give his life for Buffy.
He'll be rather less willing to help her handle Dawn when the burden is
breaking Buffy. And this limitation in Giles is the only way I know how to
reconcile his departure in S6.

OBS


chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu

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Jul 4, 2007, 12:24:40 PM7/4/07
to
In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:

>>> I'm probably a lousy reference for that subject because I never
>>> liked pushing him into father figure. Lets say I'm biased. I
>>> quietly cheer when Helpless pointedly has him turn from father
>>> role. That doesn't mean he doesn't care for Buffy - Helpless also
>>> refutes that pretty strongly.
>>
>> What are you saying? I thought Helpless clearly established that Giles
>> had a father's love for Buffy -- not just because the council stated it
>> directly, but in his actions once he'd decided to stop the test.
>
> Giles loves Buffy. I'm not disputing that. And in Helpless, his love for
> her leads him to reject the Council's wishes, and give him insight into the
> bankrupt ways of the Council in the process. But while there may be a kind
> of equivalence to a father's love - the relationship between Watcher and
> Slayer would often be intense I think - I don't see that as being the same
> as being father. The Watcher crafts the Slayer - something Giles is
> dedicated to with love and unusual consideration for Buffy - but he doesn't
> rear the child. Or at least Giles doesn't. What Giles will show
> persistently is a discomfort and even dislike for getting into family type
> things. He's only truly comfortable with the more formal teacher student
> relationship - however close that may be.

I'd take a different approach to the question: Giles does have a father's
love for Buffy, but their relationship does not develop as a
father-daughter relationship. Buffy fills a daughter's place in Giles's
emotional life, and sometimes, at least, Giles fills a father's place in
Buffy's emotional life. (For the former, Giles's dream in Restless is
significant; for a lighthearted but not meaningless example of the latter,
see Something Blue). But while Giles's love is paternal in nature,
circumstances won't allow it to be just that. Buffy's destiny gets in the
way. There are always broader considerations, other people's very lives
on the line, that keep pushing their relationship off of the
father-daughter path. For the good of the world, he has to treat her as a
Slayer first and foremost. The result is that their relationship is a big
confused mess, not parent-child, not teacher-student, not friend-friend,
but with elements of all three.

> But in Helpless, when we see Buffy's father blow off his time with her, we
> then see Buffy reach out to Giles and have him essentially ignore the
> suggestion of doing something together that wasn't business. Buffy even
> speaks of it as something families do together. Not a peep from Giles.
> Granted, at the time Giles was in the middle of his deception.

I think that's a bigger factor than you're allowing for. It seems to me
that Giles is deliberately ignoring Buffy's hints because they're just
making what he's about to do even harder for him. The point of the whole
scene is to make the deception more painful for both of them (Giles now
and Buffy later). It does this by *playing up* the father-daughter side
of their relationship, not by playing it down.

I'm undecided about how exactly this fits in with Giles's actions in S6
and 7, so I'll skip that part for now. Maybe I'll have more definite
thoughts next time the topic comes up.

One Bit Shy

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Jul 4, 2007, 5:38:16 PM7/4/07
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<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:138nie8...@corp.supernews.com...

I don't really disagree with that. Heaven knows BtVS bends over backwards
to ensure that relationships can never be simple and clear cut. But I don't
think it's complete. Over the course of the series I think Giles shows a
distaste for anything that moves outside of their -er- professional
relationship. (Yeah, "professional" sucks, but I couldn't think of a better
word.) And will even push back against it - or not comprehend it.

In S5's Intervention, Buffy will approach Giles with her fears that being
The Slayer is hardening her. But it's not being The Slayer that's prompting
this. It's in the context of having lost her mother and having lost Riley
and struggling with Dawn - just generally drowning in non-Slayer real life.
And she feels like she's failing at it because she's losing her capacity to
love. She goes through her "I love you" routine guaranteed to make Giles
squirm. (That part's OK. He's English after all. <g>) And so on.

Giles's response to this is to send Buffy on her First Slayer quest. A pure
Watcher's solution. That quest proves to be quite powerful. (Whether it's
actually good for Buffy or not can be debated.) But that's not the point.
The whole way that Giles approaches Buffy's problem is as a Slayer crisis in
search of a Slayer/Watcher solution. It's a stunningly all professional
response to an intimate emotional situation. Maybe the quest is a good
idea, but what Buffy is looking for is connection to her humanity - to feel
the love. That's not what Giles gives her. His first thought is to
reconnect her to her Slayer identity. In the process, Buffy's spirit guide
will eventually reconnect her to her love, but it's not Giles doing it.

Something akin to this happens a little later when Buffy tries to get Giles
to help Buffy handle a difficult Dawn. Giles, quite obtusely, analyzes it
as a Dawn problem, concluding that Buffy's the better person to handle it -
so sorry. He gives no evidence of recognizing that the plea isn't for
Dawn's sake, but rather for Buffy's sake, since she's close to breaking down
under the pressures on her. For me, that marked the low point for Giles as
father figure because it demonstrated he wasn't up to it. He couldn't bring
forth the father's instinct to always place his daughter's welfare first.
S6's departure just confirms it. His rationale only works if his value is
limited to what a Watcher brings.

Again, this doesn't mean he doesn't love her. The conclusion of the Gift
shows otherwise.

I'll grant you that Restless's infantile representation of Buffy in Giles's
dream probably suggests that Giles is holding Buffy back from growing up in
all facets of her life - not just being Slayer. His role is shown to extend
beyond Slayer tending. That Buffy has to leave the nest is something I'm
pretty sure Joss was reaching for across the board - Giles being just one
part of it. But I don't think that precludes the notion of Giles not being
very good as father figure. The Restless dream would also seem to suggest
Giles's own struggle in giving up a normal life to be a Watcher. (The
Watcher trap - akin to the Slayer trap.) But while the yearning for
something more is there, the dream seems to show to me that his Watcher
identity is dominant.


>> But in Helpless, when we see Buffy's father blow off his time with her,
>> we
>> then see Buffy reach out to Giles and have him essentially ignore the
>> suggestion of doing something together that wasn't business. Buffy even
>> speaks of it as something families do together. Not a peep from Giles.
>> Granted, at the time Giles was in the middle of his deception.
>
> I think that's a bigger factor than you're allowing for. It seems to me
> that Giles is deliberately ignoring Buffy's hints because they're just
> making what he's about to do even harder for him. The point of the whole
> scene is to make the deception more painful for both of them (Giles now
> and Buffy later). It does this by *playing up* the father-daughter side
> of their relationship, not by playing it down.

To an extent, yes. But he still carried through with the drugging. His
second thoughts can't entirely make up for his failure to protect Buffy to
start with. As can be seen by the resulting strained relationship with
Buffy. The loss of trust is palpable. The notion of Giles as an emotional
safe haven (as she wishes her real father was) is seriously damaged. I
would suggest that in playing up the father-daughter aspect, they only
emphasize it falling short.

But I don't want to place too much of a burden upon this episode alone.
We're watching relationships developed and adjusted incrementally over the
course of years. Even big moments have limited influence in that greater
picture. I don't focus on this episode for its dramatic transformation in
relationship. Buffy and Giles will remain close and brush against the
father figure again. Rather I see it as a kind of cresting of the tide and
subsequent reversal of direction. In episodes not so much earlier we see
Giles attending the home coming dance in hopes of seeing Buffy crowned
queen, and later engaged in Buffy's personal well being to the astonishing
point of suggesting that she should leave for college and let Faith handle
the slaying. That's a very fatherly level of interest that, to my eyes
anyway, recedes after this.


OBS


mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

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Jul 4, 2007, 6:33:53 PM7/4/07