AOQ Review 2-17: "Passion"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
(or "I wanted to get right...")
Writer: Ty King
Director: Michael Gershman
After a painful show like 3B, I usually go through a period of doubt
and feeling confrontational towards the show. Convince me, stupid
vampire show, that you're still worth watching. And it doesn't
help that so far the show hasn't done that right away - IRYJ was
followed by the initially-dull TPS, SAR by the uneven "School
Hard," and BE by the rather bland "Surprise." So how about
throwing me a bone this time? Well...
"Passion" opens with a montage of people looking happy and such.
I'd nitpick over how quickly Willow got over the "won't even talk
to [Xander]" stage mentioned in 3B, but I'm all in favor of any
excuse to ignore that episode, so we'll move on. The four teenage
leads enjoy a moment of calm while Angel watches from the shadows. And
ends up lying down next to our favorite Slayer. He's a practitioner
of real psychological warfare, like we haven't seen thus far in the
series. As a viewer, I was a little disoriented watching at this
point, wondering whether this was some kind of flashback or something,
but that quickly gets cleared up.
At school, there's some status-quo stuff ("Watcher's pet,"
etc.), which I think mainly serves the purpose of injecting some light
moments to balance out all the doom and gloom to come. I don't
really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this episode.
Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic delivery
on "what if they don't respect my authority?" My hunch is that
someone thought it was particularly important to set up the theme of
saving files on disk, but I'd disagree. [An interesting story of how
people have different reactions... during the part where Willow is
agonizing over all the things that could go wrong if she were running
class, Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
reproach or something?]
Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
make what's yet to come more depressing.
Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
snappy dialogue.
Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker.
Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
doing so. Not nuclear physics. Also, was I the only one who responded
to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
(don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
carry a cross?
Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
"shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
weight to pull off the high melodrama.
With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
"Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
Slayer? Intriguing...
The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
since that's not common behavior for most people. Going through with
the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
come back to it or if it's lost forever.
Some short takes:
1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
his narration.
2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
times the logic police point it out.
5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
"regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
have to play along with that.
Well, you're back on my good side, show. Keep it up.
So...
One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good
8) "The Dark Age" - Good
9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
11) "Ted" - Excellent
12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
13) "Surprise" - Decent
14) "Innocence" - Excellent
15) "Phases" - Decent
16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
17) "Passion" - Good]
Michael Ikeda
news:1140649192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> At school, there's some status-quo stuff ("Watcher's pet,"
> etc.), which I think mainly serves the purpose of injecting some
> light moments to balance out all the doom and gloom to come. I
> don't really see why the fluff with the computer class is in
> this episode. Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's
> classic delivery on "what if they don't respect my authority?"
> My hunch is that someone thought it was particularly important
> to set up the theme of saving files on disk, but I'd disagree.
It also sets up the fact that Willow DOES take over the computer
class after Jenny dies.
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really
> Stupid Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the
> idea. It's unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for
> me, that she's so obviously setting herself up to get in
> trouble. You're a savvy internet-using member of the late
> twentieth century; have you never seen a horror movie? You
> don't explain your dangerous plans to random characters who
> could easily betray you or be intimidated into doing so. Not
> nuclear physics.
Given Dru's vision, it probably wouldn't have mattered whether she
told the shop owner what she was doing. Angelus would likely have
paid her a visit anyway.
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads
> is done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't
> hear the dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it
> works because the rest of the episode (and the series) has
> established the necessary weight to pull off the high melodrama.
There's an interesting little note in that scene. Buffy silently
implodes while Willow cries openly. And so Joyce first comforts
Willow.
> Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm
> interested in continuing to see one or two per episode, as long
> as they eventually go somewhere. For now, it's small steps:
> Drusilla seems a little more manipulative, Angelus a little more
> condescending, Spike a little more annoyed... There's also a
> legitimate strategic disagreement running along with their
> personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his personal
> style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
> have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he
> may have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like
> a skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't
> been since "Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep
> that up in small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru
> to stay out of the personal conflict is weird; what happened to
> ganging up on the Slayer? Intriguing...
The thing about Angelus is that he doesn't really CARE that much
whether his toying with Buffy is actually more effective. He wants
to cause the maximum amount of pain. Whether this helps him
ultimately kill Buffy is almost beside the point.
>
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is
> impressive since that's not common behavior for most people.
> Going through with the funeral footage helps it sink in that
> Calendar is really gone (just like a real funeral does). The
> final shot of the disk falling behind the shelf in a nice way to
> close this one, regardless of whether they come back to it or if
> it's lost forever.
>
>
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad
> Eggs"), does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it
> benefits anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
It's been a long time since there's been any real benefit to keeping
Joyce in the dark. However, both Giles' and Buffy's natural
instincts in such matters tends toward secrecy. And with Angel now
soulless there's the not-so-little matter of presenting convincing
evidence.
Na nqqvgvbany crefbany ernfba sbe Ohssl abg gryyvat Wblpr vf tvira va
Frnfba fvk.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
> (or "I wanted to get right...")
> Writer: Ty King
> Director: Michael Gershman
bakers dozen parades, stand and debate...
>
<snip>
[An interesting story of how
> people have different reactions... during the part where Willow is
> agonizing over all the things that could go wrong if she were running
> class, Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
> fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
> way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
> that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
> reproach or something?]
Although I love everything about "Passion"... this made me laugh.
>
> Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
> trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
> want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
> all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
> make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
> really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
> make what's yet to come more depressing.
>
> Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
> silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
> but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
> cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
> vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
> exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
> snappy dialogue.
>
> Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker.
That is actually one of my favorite scenes.
>
<snip>
>
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
> done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
> dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
> the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
> weight to pull off the high melodrama.
>
> With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
> unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
> stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
> actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
> that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Yeah, Angelus is definitely a sadistic SOB. DB plays this part so well.
Also, it is really fun to hate Angelus.
>
> Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
> continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
> somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
> manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
> annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
> along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
> personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
> have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
> have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
> skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
> "Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
> small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
> the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
> Slayer? Intriguing...
It really does have to make you wonder the reasoning behind Spike's
actions here.
>
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
> since that's not common behavior for most people. Going through with
> the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
> like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
> the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
> come back to it or if it's lost forever.
>
> Some short takes:
>
> 1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
> voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
> because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
> bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
> Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
> his narration.
I thought the narration added a nice touch to the episode.
>
<snip>
>
> Well, you're back on my good side, show. Keep it up.
>
I wish I could comment more but it's really been a long time since I've
watched this episode. If you decide to continue on to Season 3, I'll
start watching them to follow along since I own 3-7.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I agree.
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
>(or "I wanted to get right...")
>Writer: Ty King
>Director: Michael Gershman
First things first: feel free to watch the interview with Whedon in
the special features. I just did. No spoilers
<SNIP>
>
>"Passion" opens with a montage of people looking happy and such.
>I'd nitpick over how quickly Willow got over the "won't even talk
>to [Xander]" stage mentioned in 3B, but I'm all in favor of any
>excuse to ignore that episode, so we'll move on. The four teenage
>leads enjoy a moment of calm while Angel watches from the shadows. And
>ends up lying down next to our favorite Slayer. He's a practitioner
>of real psychological warfare, like we haven't seen thus far in the
>series. As a viewer, I was a little disoriented watching at this
>point, wondering whether this was some kind of flashback or something,
>but that quickly gets cleared up.
I just finished re-watching this one. Probably the 5th time or 6th
I've seen it. It's an amazing hour. This episode should have gotten an
Emmy, or at least a Hugo. Incredibly creepy. Major sad. Perfect? Maybe
not, but great. And the absolutely incredible thing is it is not the
best episode of the season.
<SNIP>
>" She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
>way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
>that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
>reproach or something?]
I don't know either. But I get what you're saying.
BTW, my wife cannot stand SMG OR AH, so count yourself lucky.
>
>Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
>trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
>want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
>all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
>make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
>really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
>make what's yet to come more depressing.
And Buffy, without any prodding that we're ket in on, makes the move
for the truce in the schoolyard. All is well. For a second.
<SNIP>
BTW, Jenny was looking for the curse to recurse Angelus, not for a
curse removal.
>
>Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
>unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
>obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
>internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
>seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
>random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
>doing so. Not nuclear physics. Also, was I the only one who responded
>to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
>(don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
>carry a cross?
Yes. Damsel in distress. The anti-Buffy theme. And it works. Works
tremendously well because we care about her, and we care about what
she means to Giles.
>
>Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
>photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
>irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
>before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
>quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
>moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
>"shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
>she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
>both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
>little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
And Angelus' kill orgasm. Go listen to what Joss says about all this.
>
>Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
>done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
>dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
>the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
>weight to pull off the high melodrama.
You betcha!
>
>With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
>unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
>stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
>actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
>that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
>playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
>Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
>kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Angelus is three times the fiend Spike was painted as. Angelus is the
master sadist. Spike's a Cub Scout in comparison.
BTW, you realize we had never seen nor heard that Giles had ever
invited Angel into his house. BUT when at Buffy's to pick up the spell
book Giles says to Willow he's going to do his place that night (neat
little fill in that there must have been an invite sometime even if
we never saw it).
>
>Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
>continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
>somewhere.
Dru and the puppy? A riot. "Open wide." Vampire comic relief.
> For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
>manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
>annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
>along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
>personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
>thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
>have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
>have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
>skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
>"Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
>small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
>the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
>Slayer? Intriguing...
You're kidding right? Xander's not the only one that would like to
eliminate a rival for his lady's affections. Roller Boy too has
decided un-life was a lot more fun without Angelus around. Angelus has
no buddy/buddy loyalty to Spike, andf the sentiment is returned.
>
>The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
>shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
>since that's not common behavior for most people.
And an emotional killer. I teared up yet again.
>Going through with
>the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
>like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
>the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
>come back to it or if it's lost forever.
Ah, 1998 and floppy disks. I'm surprised it wasn't a recycled AOL
giveaway.
>
>Some short takes:
>
>1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
>voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
>because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
>bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
>Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
>his narration.
>
Worked for me. I think there's another version, possibly a wild feed
where someone else does the voiceover, maybe Giles? Or I'm confusing
it with something else.
>2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
>superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
>always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
And "Buffy" will always stick humor in the oddest places.
>
>3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
>does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
>anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
Secret identity and all that. Watcher/Slayer tradition. How long can
that go on as to Buffy?
>
>4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
>screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
>that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
>times the logic police point it out.
I think we're getting into the curse thing, not necessarily the sex
thing. Could be there was suits pressure to throw some gulit in there
with the sex.
>
>5) Where's Oz during all this?
Dingoes Ate My Baby had an out of town gig.
> Not even a mention. One of the
>problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
>"regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
>have to play along with that.
Well juggled here IMO.
>
>Well, you're back on my good side, show. Keep it up.
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
>[Season Two so far:
>1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
>2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
>3) "School Hard" - Decent
>4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
>5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
>6) "Halloween" - Good
>7) "Lie To Me" - Good
>8) "The Dark Age" - Good
>9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
>10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
>11) "Ted" - Excellent
>12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
>13) "Surprise" - Decent
>14) "Innocence" - Excellent
>15) "Phases" - Decent
>16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
>17) "Passion" - Good]
BZZZZZT! Sorry, no (IMO of course. YMMV). Excellent plus, and not the
best of the season.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>It really does have to make you wonder the reasoning behind Spike's
>actions here.
>>
He's envious, jealous and pissed off and would gladly see Angelus fit
into an ashtray.
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
(or "I wanted to get right...")
Writer: Ty King
Director: Michael Gershman
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
Weeeee!
This is the one that I've been waiting for. Like you, watching the
show originally, this was the episode that locked for me. Up until
this point, my viewing was on again, off again, ok, I'll watch it this
week. Passion made me actually hold my breath and, at one point,
mentally cry out No!
Innocense, Surprise were interesting but with all the talk of a Vampire
cursed with a soul, was there any real Surprise when he actually lost
it?
> After a painful show like 3B, I usually go through a period of doubt
> and feeling confrontational towards the show. Convince me, stupid
> vampire show, that you're still worth watching. And it doesn't
> help that so far the show hasn't done that right away - IRYJ was
> followed by the initially-dull TPS, SAR by the uneven "School
> Hard," and BE by the rather bland "Surprise." So how about
> throwing me a bone this time? Well...
Althought I loved BBB for the laughs- still love it, at the original
airing of Passions, my belief was that this "little show may survive
one more season, tops". I will have to agree with you on the bone
toss.
>From AOQ review of Innocense
> BTVS has a lot of action in it overall, but since we viewers are so
> desensitized to the killin' stuff, it doesn't always achieve the
> visceral thrills it should.
I believe I asked what could be worse than killing a human being. What
I wanted to say, but couldn't, was that I'm sure the writers were
thinking the same exact thing and possibly asked themselves the same
question. There is something worse than killing a human being. Much,
much worse. Using that death to laugh in another person's face.
>> The four teenage
>> leads enjoy a moment of calm while Angel watches from the shadows.
Interesting phrasing because that opening scene always felt very
unnerving. I thought it was brilliantly done, the smiles and the
laughter vs. the almost monotone voiceover and and loving snear of
Angel. I have only come to appreciate it more with each viewing. This
ep is an easy #1 in my S2 favs. Then again, I've always been afraid of
the dark.
I also have to say, that since your viewing is on DVD, you missed the
hell of ending with Angel pulling her hair back and watching THEN the
opening credits and THEN the damn commercials. The next scene, with
her awakening to find the gift was perfect and worth the wait, Here We
Go!!!!!!!!
> Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
> fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
> way."
It will be very interesting to see what Mrs. Q thinks of Willow in the
future. Please, Please, Please keep her in the loop. Her opinion will
be very helpful. No more for now...........................
> Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
> trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
> want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
> all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
> make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
> really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
> make what's yet to come more depressing.
And the music................more in a moment.
> but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
> but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
> cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
> vulnerable.
What's more interesting is the less obvious and least unaddressed
point: How is it that a few mind games and harsh words get a man
cursed? There was much discussion, prior to this ep, about the cursed
Angel, but the info from S1 long forgotten. Maybe time for a refresher
course?
> Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker.
And a great Fisherman, too! Was I the only one who noticed, on first
viewing, that she was feeding the tank? I found it a little
distracting up and until......Oh!
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
> unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
> obviously setting herself up to get in trouble.
Keep in mind that Angelus did not take exception. Dru's vision, Dru's
visit. Without her, he would have never known.
And no word about Sunshine. Have you no compassion?
You're a savvy
> internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
> seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
> random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
> doing so. Not nuclear physics.
Interesting take. I'll try and keep it in mind. But I do have a
question for someone who may know:
Vf gung gur Zntvp Obk? V xrrc ybbxvat ohg vg frrzf fb qvssrerag sebz
gur bar va Ybire'f Jnyx naq orlbaq. Fbzrguvat nobhg gur ynlbhg. Znlor
vg'f whfg zr.
Also, was I the only one who responded
> to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
> (don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
> carry a cross?
I belive my actual reaction was "Oh, she's screwed!" dumb shock.
Wow, no mention of the fact that Jenny was the one who gave the others
a means to protect themselves, yet nothing could protect her. And also
interesting are the circumstances that led to Buffy being nowhere in
sight at Jenny's demise.
Fav line: "Sorry Angel. Changed the locks." SLAM!
No mention of the brilliant execution. The way that each scene seemed
to flow timewise. One exception but it can slide.
> Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
> photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
> irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
> before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
> quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
> moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
> "shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
> she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
> both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
> little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
and really, really scary too. Especially with the lights off and the
volume turned way up.
> the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
> quite possible that Jenny could die here
While you saw this as a "she's done", I was still operating under the
"most tv is like the original Star Trek". Look at the uniform, she
can't die. I brought up TNG before, the ep there that caught my
attention....The demise of Tasha Yar, which got a "but, but, but, the
uniform" Nice when a show says, "we can do what ever we want, it's our
series".
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
> done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
> dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
> the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
> weight to pull off the high melodrama.
>
> With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
> unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
> stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
> actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
> that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Wow! That's it? That's all?
Giles first peek at the long stem rose on the door.
Romantic auria playing in the background.
"Jenny, it's me."
Iced Champaigne and a one word note "Upstairs"
the long line of candles and roses leading up the the bedroom
and Jenny lying on the bed
dead
Now back to Spike
You didn't cry? There wasn't a lump in your throat?
The next scene with Angel smiling at the pain on Buffy and Willow's
face after you could almost hear him laughing as he took one final
glance at Gile's gift.
You didn't ...... you didn't.......Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
I'm better now.
With all the previous talk of the curse, good, bad, well thought out or
not. Vengence and vengence alone. When Gypsies have to deal with a
man who not only kills but.............killin 'em just ain't enough.
As you can clearly see on Gile's face when he's gathering for the
attack or with the first swing of the bat. What's worse than killing,
using that death to laugh in someone else's heart. What's worse than
simply killing the killer, making him feel your pain. Vengence.
> Drusilla seems a little more
> manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
> annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
> along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
> personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
> have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
> have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
> skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
> "Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
> small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
> the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
> Slayer? Intriguing...
more later......................
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
> since that's not common behavior for most people. Going through with
> the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
> like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
> the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
> come back to it or if it's lost forever.
Now for the music which I know has been brought up before. I wanted to
wait because it's kind of hard to talk about CB without spoilers and I
will try now. The final song you have heard before, no doubt, but what
you might find interesting is how many times you've heard it. How many
different instruments have been used. How many meters and phrasing
have been used. The music is beautifully composed and really captures
the moment as you will learn later, S4 if you can make it that long.
Beck knows when to start the music, it's never arbitrary, and he knows
just how much of the music to play and when and using which instruments
to get the point across. And, I may be wrong, but the end of Passion
as the first time Remembering Jenny was heard in it's entirety. But
you've heard it many, many times before. Always a little different,
but always the same.
> "the ecstasy of grief" into his narration.
No tears???? Not even a furrowed brow?????
> 2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
> always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
No, you will get absolutely no arguement from me.
> 4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
> screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
> that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
> times the logic police point it out.
Joyce unaware, Buffy very aware that it lifted the curse. Hindsight
20/20 always. Even at 17.
> 5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
> problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
> "regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
> have to play along with that.
My rating would be a simple: YES! Up until this ep, I had been waiting
for the show to do something to impress me, surprise me, show me that
you are different from regular tv. Passion did. I stopped missing
episodes and started catching up on missed one's.
Glad you enjoyed. Just one more question.
When Giles dropped the champaigne bottle, wasn't there just a
little............??
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>Now for the music which I know has been brought up before. I wanted to
>wait because it's kind of hard to talk about CB without spoilers and I
>will try now. The final song you have heard before, no doubt, but what
>you might find interesting is how many times you've heard it. How many
>different instruments have been used. How many meters and phrasing
>have been used. The music is beautifully composed and really captures
>the moment as you will learn later, S4 if you can make it that long.
>Beck knows when to start the music, it's never arbitrary, and he knows
>just how much of the music to play and when and using which instruments
>to get the point across. And, I may be wrong, but the end of Passion
>as the first time Remembering Jenny was heard in it's entirety. But
>you've heard it many, many times before. Always a little different,
>but always the same.
>
Thank you h.d. I forgot to mention the music myself. Wonderful scoring
by Beck. Really seamless intergration.
While we're on "the Arts," no one ever seems to comment on what a
decent artist evil, evil Angelus is. A monster with a delicate line.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Worked for me. I think there's another version, possibly a wild feed
> where someone else does the voiceover, maybe Giles? Or I'm confusing
> it with something else.
You're confusing it with Becoming, which also has voice overs, for which
there are a couple of different versions.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
KenM47
>In article <787qv115qojf3iemv...@4ax.com>,
> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Worked for me. I think there's another version, possibly a wild feed
>> where someone else does the voiceover, maybe Giles? Or I'm confusing
>> it with something else.
>
>You're confusing it with Becoming, which also has voice overs, for which
>there are a couple of different versions.
Thanks Don
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Vf gung gur Zntvp Obk? V xrrc ybbxvat ohg vg frrzf fb qvssrerag sebz
> gur bar va Ybire'f Jnyx naq orlbaq. Fbzrguvat nobhg gur ynlbhg. Znlor
> vg'f whfg zr.
Vg jnf n qvssrerag ybpngvba sebz jung orpnzr Gur Zntvp Obk (Nsgre orvat
Hapyr Obo'f Zntvp Pnovarg sbe n juvyr.)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
hopelessly devoted
Thank you. Makes sense. Now I can stop looking at it.
hopelessly devoted
Death is your art. You make it with your hands. I like it.
kenm47
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
> that was rhetorical.
Then next time use the darn rhetorical emoticon!
:-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mel
hopelessly devoted wrote:
<rest of post snipped>
>
> Glad you enjoyed. Just one more question.
>
> When Giles dropped the champaigne bottle, wasn't there just a
> little............??
>
This is the first episode chronologically that always gets me teary.
From the closing moments of "the talk" between Buffy and Joyce right
through to the end.
Mel
Carlos Moreno
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
>
> AOQ rating: Good
*sigh* still suffering from that indigestion right before BBB? ;-)
I know, I know -- I said it before and I insist on it now: if we
*always* agreed about everything, things would be extremely boring...
But, MAN! Talk about an aftershock of BBB blurring your judgement...
How can you not loudly and emphatically rate this episode as by far
the most absolutely extraordinary thing the show has given us so
far?!! It's like, sooooooooooo far above anything else that we've
seen (yes, including "Innocence") so far...
Ok, BBB (though I'm still deeply shocked at the mere mention that
the episode is bad -- let alone candidate for worst episode) fits
the pattern of your profound dislike for the X/C element... But
Passion, after reading your comment about Angelus in "Innocence",
your detailed observations about the absolute mastery in the
scenes (the bedroom scene/dialog, for instance), and your liking
of Boreanaz portraying Angelus, the most genuinely scary true
monster that we've seen so far -- clever, focused, sadistic and
determined to cause as much pain as possible in the most artful
way possible...
How can you not think that Passion is the most extraordinary
thing the show has given us so far?!! I really can not understand
this one (I mean, I could understand it if you had been a person
who dislikes the darker aspects of the show -- but so far you've
shown precisely the opposite pattern... Not too much in sync
with the light, humor-based facet, and more in sync with the
dark episodes).
Jenny's death, and the scene where Giles finds out is, like,
OH MY GOD, I don't think I'll ever be able to find words (in
any language!) to describe just how brilliant that is!! And
Angelus' joy when looking at Buffy receiving the news... I
don't think the word "priceless" even begins to cover it.
Anyway, we'll let you off with a warning, but only this one
time... ;-) And only because of the aftershock of BBB (which
now that I think about it, we should not accept that as an
excuse -- that one was already inexcusable!! So, on second
thought, you're going to prison! Guilty as charged!!! :-))
Carlos
--
Carlos Moreno
> I just finished re-watching this one. Probably the 5th time or 6th
> I've seen it. It's an amazing hour. This episode should have gotten an
> Emmy, or at least a Hugo. Incredibly creepy. Major sad. Perfect? Maybe
> not, but great. And the absolutely incredible thing is it is not the
> best episode of the season.
I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, Becoming is
incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
this one, Becoming seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
yes, the flashbacks are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
new dimension... But I don't know, Passion is so unique, so
unbelievably surprising, so good at an unexpected level -- as
you say, an episode that should have gotten a multitude of awards
(yes, Becoming too, I know!! :-))
[no, I'm not putting spoiler space or warnings, since it was two
days ago that Mrs. AOQ indicated they were going to watch the
finale -- so, I'm convinced that at this point, AOQ must have
even worked on his review for Becoming]
>>" She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
>>way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
>>that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
>>reproach or something?]
>
> I don't know either. But I get what you're saying.
I'm probably going to go again against popular opinion, but I
think I'm gonna side with Mrs. AOQ on this one -- Willow some
times can be truly and unbelievably lame and annoying! This
was probably one of those times...
Don't get me wrong: I *love* Willow! Really love her and find
her an awesome character!! But really, some times she can be
quite annoying.
Carlos
--
Scythe Matters
> I'd nitpick over how quickly Willow got over the "won't even talk
> to [Xander]" stage mentioned in 3B
Actually, if you pay attention to how long it takes them to actually
exchange words, you'll see it's not entirely over. At their first
interaction, she blows him off after one line and without addressing
him. The very first time she directly addresses him -- very late in the
episode -- it's to scold him:
----
Cordelia: So Giles is gonna try to kill Angel then?
Xander: Well, it's about time somebody did.
Willow: Xander!
And she doesn't talk to him for the rest of the episode.
----
So: she's over it? Uh, no.
> I don't
> really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this episode.
> Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic delivery
> on "what if they don't respect my authority?"
Did you not see the end of the episode? It's there to set up the
justification for Willow actually taking over the class, which would
otherwise be completely out of the blue.
> Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
> reproach or something?]
We'll all have a nice long chat about gendered reactions to Buffyverse
characters while you're reviewing seasons 5 and 6. It's something to,
uh, "look forward to." :-/
> The net effect is to
> make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
> really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
> make what's yet to come more depressing.
Yes. Joss: "always go for the pain." The death is painful enough on its
own. Its more painful because of the guilt that it lays on Buffy. And
its infinitely more painful because, after "The Dark Age" and then
"Innocence," we're finally about to repair the one source of happiness
in either Giles' or Jenny's lives.
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
> unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
> obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
> internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
> seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
> random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
> doing so.
Uh, that's not how Angelus found out, that's just how he learned the
precise details of something he already knew. He never would have been
in the classroom without Drusilla's vision (her visit to the magic shop
was post-vision, acquiring the aforementioned details). This is, in
part, why she is such a dangerous character compared to the other
baddies...because she's intermittently clairvoyant and thus can
anticipate some of our heroes' actions.
Jenny might have violated a basic rule of stock horror plots, but
there's no consequences without Drusilla's "gift." And in any case, this
isn't really about Angelus stopping the re-cursing, it's about Angelus
killing someone that Buffy could have saved by staking him when she had
the chance. Jenny's death, like so many other devices in these shows, is
mighty painful but in the end really is only a means to a different end.
It's not about Jenny. It's not, really, even about Jenny and Giles. It's
about Buffy and Angel.
> Also, was I the only one who responded
> to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
It appears that the door was locked somehow, given her inability to open
it despite tugging at the doorknob. Note that she couldn't get out until
he threw her through a door.
> (don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
> carry a cross?
Crosses aren't a prophylactic in the Buffyverse. Vampires don't like
them, but they can tolerate them if their need is strong enough, and
crosses can be batted away by an enraged vampire if the plot requires
them to do so. A cross wouldn't have saved Jenny. A Slayer might have,
though.
> Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
> photographed.
Yes, yes and yes again.
> the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
> quite possible that Jenny could die here
As Joss says on this very DVD: it's important that the audience realize
that characters can die. (He goes on to say that it's important for the
actors to realize this. ;-) )
> The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
> "shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
> she'd survive after all.
Absolutely. Because at this point in any other episode, she either gets
away or Buffy arrives to save the day. But this is not any other episode.
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
> done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
> dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
> the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
> weight to pull off the high melodrama.
I think the Willow reaction especially, but also the Buffy/Willow/Joyce
interaction here is brilliantly acted and filmed.
> Now that's just _mean_.
"Always go for the pain." More terrific acting, this time from Head.
Also important: Giles was the one who lectured Buffy on not letting
Angelus provoke her. Thereby guaranteeing that he'd be the victim of
Angelus' provocation.
A tangential aside: notice that after a few moments of significant
maturation on Xander's part, he's back on the anti-Angel train, and this
time he's the conductor and the engineer (and also with the coal
shoveling). Except that, for once, he's probably right...and Buffy knows it.
> I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
This is too difficult to answer in depth right now, though I suspect
others (in the responses I haven't yet read) will have tried. But no, I
don't think that Angelus and Spike are comparable at this point. The
intensity of the psychological warfare being conducted by Angelus is far
beyond anything Spike could possibly conceive. Spike up to this point,
at his best/worst, is a snarky and somewhat apathetic but effective
(until Buffy, that is) killer. That's already changing since the church
collapse, of course, but I'm describing Spike pre-collapse. Angelus is
all about the dramatic, emotional, slow-burning evil. He'll kill just to
kill if it's all he has, but that's not his raison d'être, and in fact
he often seems to get much more pleasure from the *non*-kill, if it
causes more pain than a clean kill.
> Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
> continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
> somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
> manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
> annoyed...
Consistent with the very first interactions between the three of them.
This time, you saw it from the beginning...which is partially a
testament to the clarity of Marsters' acting, and partially to your credit.
> There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
> along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
> personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous.
This is an insightful response.
> Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
> the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
> Slayer? Intriguing...
Another insightful response.
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
> since that's not common behavior for most people.
Agreed.
> 1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
> voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
> because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show.
I tend to think they add a great deal, because they demonstrate that
Angelus is playing our characters are being played like cheap
instruments. Not just our heroes, but our villians as well. As the
omniscient narrator, he gets to fully inhabit this role.
> 2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
> always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
I'm clipping and pasting this comment next to the other dozen. ;-)
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
Seriously, now: what does Buffy say to her?
"Hey, Mom. Listen...I'm The Chosen One, I'm a vampire slayer, I kill
demons in my spare time, I've saved the entire world several times, I
sneak out of the house every night even when I'm grounded, I (and
Willow, and Xander, and Giles) lie to you on a daily basis, and I'm
likely to die any day now. By the way, Oz is a werewolf. You were
possessed by a giant slug and your last boyfriend was an evil robot. Oh,
yeah, and incidentally I just gave it up to a 200+ year old guy who just
snapped my computer teacher's neck and is killing my classmates. Uh...if
you see him anywhere, run."
This is the Joyce who has been in complete denial, the Joyce who
wouldn't listen to a moment of explanation from Buffy in "Bad Eggs," the
Joyce...well, now, let's repeat the question: what would Buffy say to her?
Or, as the episode put it more cleverly:
----
Giles: (looks up the stairs) Would you, um... Perhaps I should
intervene on, on Buffy's behalf w-w-with her mother. Um, maybe... say
something?
Willow: Sure! Like, what would you say?
Giles: (looks up the stairs again) W... Uh...
She reaches for the doorknob and opens it.
Giles: You will tell Buffy I dropped by? (goes out)
Willow: You bet. (closes the door)
----
> 4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
> screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
> that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
> times the logic police point it out.
----
Angelus: It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we
obey. What other choice do we have?
----
> 5) Where's Oz during all this?
Presumably not contracted for the episode. ;-)
> AOQ rating: Good
Should be "excellent." When I first saw this, I would have agreed with
"good" -- though on the high side of "good" -- but subsequent viewings
have convinced me that this is a brilliant episode. Moreover, reading
your review and comparing it to the episodes you've rated "excellent," I
find your rating inexplicable. But, chacun à son goût.
Mike Zeares
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
Ack, now I'm behind you. DVD time tonight.
Anyway, ever since it first aired I've had mixed reactions to
"Passions." Roughly the first half of the episode just seems "off,"
somehow. My major objections are the voice-overs, which I think are
completely superfluous, and Xander's dialogue/Nick's acting prior to
the scene in Giles' apartment (where both suddenly worked perfectly).
However, the last half of the ep is just amazing.
Am I the only one who thinks Buffy looked like absolute crap at this
point in the season? The stress of what happened to Angel was really
showing on her (I believe this was deliberate, since the makeup/hair
people could make her look any way they chose). I think it's
particularly noticable when she and Giles are at Jenny's grave. The
girl was getting worn down.
-- Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters
> I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
> think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, ***** is
> incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
> this one, ***** seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
> yes, the ***** are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
> new dimension...
Carlos, spoilers! Plus, "expectation spoilers," which AoQ has already
suggested he'd rather not see. Let's not talk about how stupendously
awesome the season 3 finale "Cordelia's Bad Perm" is, let's let him find
out for himself, OK?
I agree that it's possible they've already watched the episodes in
question, though also remember that we have at least one other newbie
following along. Besides, what's fun about these discussions is limiting
them to what we know up to the point we've reached. We don't need AoQ to
talk about the series as a whole.
hopelessly devoted
> BTW, you realize we had never seen nor heard that Giles had ever
> invited Angel into his house. BUT when at Buffy's to pick up the spell
> book Giles says to Willow he's going to do his place that night (neat
> little fill in that there must have been an invite sometime even if
> we never saw it).
Great Catch!!!!! I never noticed.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
>(or "I wanted to get right...")
>Writer: Ty King
>Director: Michael Gershman
>
>[An interesting story of how
>people have different reactions... during the part where Willow is
>agonizing over all the things that could go wrong if she were running
>class, Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
>fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
>way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
>that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
>reproach or something?]
I think you've got it :)
Actually, I never found Willow to be above reproach, and I loved her all
the more, not in spite of her faults (and she certainly has them) but
because of them. They make her much more interesting than if she really
was little miss perfect.
>Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
>trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
>want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
>all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
>make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
>really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
>make what's yet to come more depressing.
My favorite Jenny scene in the ep is the Jenny/Buffy. ("... and I just
want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according to
several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they wrote
needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect on
Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants her
to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her life.
>Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
>silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
>but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
>cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
>vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
>exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
>snappy dialogue.
On the newsgroup, following Innocence, the entry restriction was very much
in people's mind, and we were actively cataloging the places we knew he
had been invited into (we missed Cordy's car I think). Everybody and her
sister was pointing out 'Hey, Willow invited him in!' even before Phases
had aired.
>
>Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>Curse.
Actually, she was trying to do the RSC. The curse was already reversed
when Buffy boinked the undead. Keep in mind that the curse is having a
soul. Running around unsouled and terrorizing people is the natural
state.
>Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
>unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
>obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
>internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
>seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
>random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
>doing so. Not nuclear physics. Also, was I the only one who responded
>to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
>(don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
>carry a cross?
As shown when she did run, it wouldn't have.
Also, I don't think Jenny told the shop owner all that much. What screwed
her was that Dru, like Buffy, has visions. she didn't need to torture
stuff from the shop-owner, she could mostly see it in her head, and warned
Angel.
Also, did you pick up by this point that Buffy and Dru have difficulty
'seeing' each other, their visions tend to mask them from each other (Dru
complains about it).
>Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
>photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
>irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
>before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
>quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
>moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
>"shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
>she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
>both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
>little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
A couple of things, as I've mentioned, I pretty strongly expected Jenny to
be killed or vamped in WSWB, and I though it likely that she was going to
be killed in The Dark Age, when she wasn't killed in Innocence, I started
thinking that the red shirt had passed her by and started to relax. In
retrospect, I think that was exactly what they were going for in the
earlier episodes.
Also, Angel breaking her neck rather than biting, was almost certainly
meant to show that she was not just merely dead, but really quite
sincerely dead, no coming back as a vampire.
>Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
>done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
>dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
>the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
>weight to pull off the high melodrama.
What sells the scene is the audience seeing it from Angel's viewpoint.
>With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
>unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
>stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
>actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
>that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
>playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
>Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
>kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Well, Angel was Spike's yoda, so it would make sense there would be
similarities. However, by this point we already know that Spike has a
rather severe case of Attention Deficit Disorder. He doesn't even have
the patience to follow his own plans, how likely is it that he'll follow
someone else'sp plan. In his first appearance, he set up a plan to attack
on St. Vigius Day, then attacked a day early because he couldn't wait.
>Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
>continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
>somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
>manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
>annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
>along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
>personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
>thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
>have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
>have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
>skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
>"Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
>small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
>the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
>Slayer? Intriguing...
Did you try coming up with a rhyme for 'lungs'?
>1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
>voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
>because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
>bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
>Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
>his narration.
The voice over was very highly debated, and was very divisive, generally
people either loved it or hated it. I was on the 'lame' side of the
argument.
>3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
>does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
>anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
By this point of the season, my rant on it had pretty much flattened into
a screaming crescendo.
>4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
>screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
>that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
>times the logic police point it out.
Take a globe and pick out the point on it furthest from 'not blaming
herself' and that's where you'll find Buffy. We've already seen (in
Nightmares and Ted) that Buffy absolutely excels at blaming herself,
rightly or not. At this point we're getting the full meal deal of what we
only got a glimpse of in Ted. Buffy blames herself for everything.
>5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
>problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
>"regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
>have to play along with that.
Hey, he's the lead guitar in a rock band that's good enough to be the
house band at the main nightclub in the area, and to play out of town
gigs.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Daniel Damouth
news:1140649192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
> I
> don't really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this
> episode. Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic
> delivery on "what if they don't respect my authority?" My hunch
> is that someone thought it was particularly important to set up
> the theme of saving files on disk, but I'd disagree.
A criticism reminiscent of your objection to showing the talent show
in "The Puppet Show".
Here, you object to the computer class? I counted. There's exactly
10 seconds of class stuff, establishing that it is a computer class,
which explains all the computers and that they have portable media,
and gives a good setup for Willow and Jenny to interact naturally, so
that Jenny could ask her to sub. Pointless? It's entirely pointy.
> Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
> trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
> want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
> all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is
> to make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite
> everything, they really do want to be together - also a standard
> technique to try to make what's yet to come more depressing.
That's a very technical observation, but you don't really follow up
by telling us what your reaction was to the payoff. Were you
depressed or moved in any way? That's the heart of many fans'
attachment to this episode and this show. In fact, if there is a
single point to the episode, it's the emotional hit that they want to
deliver to you. Sometimes your reviews read like a school assignment
on a subject you're ambivalent about.
> Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age
> stalker.
>
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really
> Stupid Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the
> idea. It's unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me,
> that she's so obviously setting herself up to get in trouble.
> You're a savvy internet-using member of the late twentieth
> century; have you never seen a horror movie? You don't explain
> your dangerous plans to random characters who could easily betray
> you or be intimidated into doing so. Not nuclear physics.
This is perhaps a fair criticism of the writing, but not of Jenny.
Horror movies are good guides for how to conduct yourself in real
life? And she doesn't think about the other people in the episode as
"characters". And she doesn't know that Dru has some weird psychic
ability.
> Also,
> was I the only one who responded to Angel's appearance by mentally
> yelling "run, you moron!" (don't know if it would have helped,
> but...)? And why doesn't she carry a cross?
Yes, that was my reaction when I first saw it. But there's something
else going on that I don't fully understand. The direction Jenny
wants to run in is towards the back of the classroom. There might be
a door there (by which Angel might have entered). So she has to sort
of go past Angel to get out. And I think she was edging in that
direction, waiting for the chance to slip past. When she finally
went for it, she didn't make it past him. Only as a last resort did
she go back into the school, which as we all know has most of its
doors locked after hours.
[...]
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is
> impressive since that's not common behavior for most people.
So, the acting is good. But did the scene induce any other reaction
in you? Were you, in fact, ordered (court ordered) to review Buffy?
> Some short takes:
>
> 1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
> voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
> because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But
> one bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out
> about Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief"
> into his narration.
I never liked most of the narration either, but it does answer the
question "why doesn't Angel just kill her", which was in my mind when
I first saw it.
> 2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute.
> There'll always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
>
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
How about this: Buffy needs Joyce. Things get a lot harder if she
decides to move away (which is what she did last time Buffy got in
trouble). Does Buffy then run away from Joyce and return to
Sunnydale?
> 4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification
> of screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
> that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
> times the logic police point it out.
The guilt just keeps piling up in Buffy. I will note that there were
long discussions in this newsgroup about whether Buffy really did
anything wrong by sleeping with Angel. Yes, she couldn't have known
about the loophole in the curse. OTOH, Angel turning into Angelus
was a metaphor for a guy changing nature after scoring. Should she
have taken the risk of sleeping with *anyone* at that age? As Giles
said, she "acted rashly".
> 5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
> problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
> "regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
> have to play along with that.
I see it the other way. The episodes determine who's a guest star
and who's a regular. If Oz had been written into "Passion" then Seth
would have showed up for work (barring a conflict). But he wasn't.
I was surprised you didn't mention Giles' "classic battle strategy"
explanation for Angel's behavior. Yeah, right, he's just trying to
"throw you off your game", to "goad you into some mishap". It was so
stupid I couldn't believe Giles said it.
On another note, I appreciated the fighting and fight choreography in
this one. The battles were gritty, dirty, punches, kicks, grabbing
and shoving, Buffy shoving a pole through the stairs to trip Angel up
and not really succeeding. Contrasted with many shows (Xena, et
al.), the fighting seems more real here. A little more messy. Makes
me feel that the characters are really invested.
There. I think I've covered the Three Levels of Joss (spectacle,
message, and emotion).
-Dan Damouth
kenm47
ROT13
Ohg frnfba terngarff, VZB, yvrf jvgu Fnenu Z'f "Shyy bs Tenpr." V
pnaabg guvax bs nabgure fubj gung yrsg zr fgnevat ng gur fperra arneyl
nhqvoyl fboovat, srryvat nf qenvarq nf V gura sryg. Nznmvatyl, vg fgvyy
trgf gb zr, n yvggyr yrff, ohg vg trgf gb zr.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
I've got to say thanks again. Really a pleasure to read your replies,
particularly where AOQ seems to some (you, me, Carlos, etc.) to be off.
Have we just all got Stockholm syndrome? Under Buffy's spell way too
long? Could AOQ be more dead on, and we're deluding ourselves?
Nah!
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
point in the season? The stress of what happened to Angel was really
showing on her (I believe this was deliberate, since the makeup/hair
people could make her look any way they chose). I think it's
particularly noticable when she and Giles are at Jenny's grave. The
girl was getting worn down."
Well she looked good in that raincoat and out of it in BB&B. But she
did look sick, kinda fluish, when Willow came over for that overnight
and later at Jenny's grave. Like she was coming down with something?
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according
to
several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they
wrote
needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect
on
Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants
her
to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her
life. "
There is that. Funny though, as much as I thought Buffy was being
unduly harsh and nasty, the follow up reads to me as Buffy saying to
Jenny you're important to Giles so you are important to me, and some
day I will get over it, so you can now come back into our lives.
Yes, she could have been more explicit, but I think what Buffy has to
live with is that because she chose to not dust Angelus when she had
the chance Jenny dies.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
'seeing' each other, their visions tend to mask them from each other
(Dru
complains about it)."
I think I knew/realized that, but never expressly put it together.
Thanks to you WGF also for your extensive comments.
For a show long off the air, this newsgroup is still alive and fun.
Thanks again AOQ for the catalyst.
Ken (Brooklyn) <in a thankful mood this a.m.>
kenm47
in you? Were you, in fact, ordered (court ordered) to review Buffy? "
LOL
Thanks to you too Dan. And anyone else I've failed to personally thank.
I am really enjoying this, having missed it the first time around.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
with a response (at least from me):
- Demands to know why I only wrote one paragraph about a certain thing
instead of three
- Demands over why I saw something as merely "effective" rather than
having it move me to the core of my being
- Ratings quibbles over any distinction other than not-Good ("Decent"
and below) vs. "Good" or higher. ("Decent" or higher vs. "Bad" or
lower may also be an acceptable topic under certain circumstances.)
They're subjective; I don't have to justify them logically.
Have a nice day.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Althought I loved BBB for the laughs- still love it, at the original
> airing of Passions, my belief was that this "little show may survive
> one more season, tops". I will have to agree with you on the bone
> toss.
One thing I'm learning here is that this series has the ability to keep
coming up with the goods regardless of what's gone before who who gets
killed off.
> It will be very interesting to see what Mrs. Q thinks of Willow in the
> future. Please, Please, Please keep her in the loop. Her opinion will
> be very helpful. No more for now...........................
We agree on so much that I usually try to point it out when we strongly
disagree on something. Anyway, will do.
> What's more interesting is the less obvious and least unaddressed
> point: How is it that a few mind games and harsh words get a man
> cursed? There was much discussion, prior to this ep, about the cursed
> Angel, but the info from S1 long forgotten. Maybe time for a refresher
> course?
I don't get the question. Didn't Angelus get cursed because he killed
someone whose family took it personally? That's all it takes to elicit
vengeance. Plus Angelus doesn't just kill people, he methodically
hurts them and those they love as much as possible... it's the kinda
thing that makes you want him to suffer or something. And you
basically say exactly that later in the response, so... I don't get the
question.
> You didn't cry? There wasn't a lump in your throat?
> The next scene with Angel smiling at the pain on Buffy and Willow's
> face after you could almost hear him laughing as he took one final
> glance at Gile's gift.
>
> You didn't ...... you didn't.......Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Nope. Heart of stone and all. Certainly effective stuff, it just
didn't happen to rip out the core of my being. But the fact that it
got such strong responses from so many people means that the show's
doing something right, yes?
Like I said, I was glad they showed the tombstone. Seeing "Jennifer
Calender" etched in stone so matter-of-factly there drove home the
point for me, made it final. And it gives the viewer a quieter moment
to really reflect on what (and who) has been lost
> Now for the music which I know has been brought up before. I wanted to
> wait because it's kind of hard to talk about CB without spoilers and I
> will try now. The final song you have heard before, no doubt, but what
> you might find interesting is how many times you've heard it. How many
> different instruments have been used. How many meters and phrasing
> have been used. The music is beautifully composed and really captures
> the moment as you will learn later, S4 if you can make it that long.
> Beck knows when to start the music, it's never arbitrary, and he knows
> just how much of the music to play and when and using which instruments
> to get the point across. And, I may be wrong, but the end of Passion
> as the first time Remembering Jenny was heard in it's entirety. But
> you've heard it many, many times before. Always a little different,
> but always the same.
Interesting. I've found that (with the sole exception of _Cowboy
Bebop_), I almost never notice music when watching TV (or most movies).
It just doesn't register unless it's getting in the way. That'll be
worth paying attention to on re-watchings.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> My favorite Jenny scene in the ep is the Jenny/Buffy. ("... and I just
> want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according to
> several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
> ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they wrote
> needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect on
> Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
> 'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
> death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants her
> to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her life.
Agreed, although like Ken points out, she's also trying to remove
herself as a barrier keeping Giles and Calendar from working things out
between them on their own. Just a little too late...
Re: Angel's invitations, you'll notice how in the Angel/Willow scene
from "Lie To Me" they lingered on the invitation a little, making sure
the vieer would remember it? That's an example of how a scene can work
both in its original context (inviting a vampire in is always a big
deal, and Willow's simple thrill/apprehension about having such a big
guy alone with her) and also as setup.
> >Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> >Curse.
>
> Actually, she was trying to do the RSC. The curse was already reversed
> when Buffy boinked the undead. Keep in mind that the curse is having a
> soul. Running around unsouled and terrorizing people is the natural
> state.
Yeah, my typo.
> Also, did you pick up by this point that Buffy and Dru have difficulty
> 'seeing' each other, their visions tend to mask them from each other (Dru
> complains about it).
No. Oh, speaking of visions, I guess since Dru helped Angelus prevent
the re-souling, Buffy's dream about her killing Angel can be said to
have come to pass. (if anyone thinks that's already been fulfilled in
any other metaphorical context, let me know, sinc I'm not seeing it).
> Well, Angel was Spike's yoda, so it would make sense there would be
> similarities. However, by this point we already know that Spike has a
> rather severe case of Attention Deficit Disorder. He doesn't even have
> the patience to follow his own plans, how likely is it that he'll follow
> someone else'sp plan. In his first appearance, he set up a plan to attack
> on St. Vigius Day, then attacked a day early because he couldn't wait.
Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you're right.
-AOQ
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> Curse.
The curse makes more sense if you remember what the people who cast it
were going for. They didn't care about justice or goodness or
protecting the world from Angelus or any of that. It was a purely
vengeance-driven expression of sadism. It's like a curse from a fairy
tale -- what will inflict the most pain on the victim? If you're
dealing with a handsome prince, you turn him into a monster, or a frog.
Well, they were dealing with a monster, so they inflicted a conscience
on him.
But they didn't do it to make him into a nice person, or to make him a
hero, or even to stop Angelus from eating people. Those were just happy
side effects. The purpose was to make Angelus suffer, which it of
course succeeded at in spades.
If, however, Angel actually became *content* with his state of affairs,
as he was beginning to become with Buffy, then the purpose of the curse
has been broken. He's not suffering anymore. The soul has become a
benefit to him, rather than a crushing agony. And they can't have that.
Plus, it's a curse. It operates on fairy tale rules. There's always
some weird clause that breaks the curse. Remember, losing his soul
wasn't the curse. *Having* a soul was the curse. And just like Beauty
and the Beast or the Frog Prince or whatever, the curse was broken by
true love. It's just that in this case, the curse is what was keeping
the handsome prince a handsome prince, and when the curse was broken,
he turned back into a beast.
--Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality
Daniel Damouth wrote:
> A criticism reminiscent of your objection to showing the talent show
> in "The Puppet Show".
>
> Here, you object to the computer class? I counted. There's exactly
> 10 seconds of class stuff, establishing that it is a computer class,
> which explains all the computers and that they have portable media,
> and gives a good setup for Willow and Jenny to interact naturally, so
> that Jenny could ask her to sub. Pointless? It's entirely pointy.
I meant the whole scene. And you'll notice I said "seems" pointless
without passing final judgment on future plans - I couldn't have known
at that point that Jvyybj grnpuvat jnf tbvat gb or na batbvat
fgbelyvar, abg whfg fbzrguvat sbe "Cnffvba" nybar. (See, I'm
learning.)
> That's a very technical observation, but you don't really follow up
> by telling us what your reaction was to the payoff. Were you
> depressed or moved in any way? That's the heart of many fans'
> attachment to this episode and this show. In fact, if there is a
> single point to the episode, it's the emotional hit that they want to
> deliver to you. Sometimes your reviews read like a school assignment
> on a subject you're ambivalent about.
Heh, point taken. I do tend towards a dry, observation-focused writing
style; I think that's just the way I'm handling this, scrutinizing
things as someone new to the Buffyverse. But yeah, my reviews will
look like that... especially if I find something effective enough to
hold my attention but not enough to stir a really deep emotional
reaction. The more invested I am, the more gushy the language gets. A
general rule is that if I talk about something at all, I find it
interesting (either good or bad, which is usually clear from context);
the subjects I'm ambivalent about won't get mentioned at all.
> So, the acting is good. But did the scene induce any other reaction
> in you? Were you, in fact, ordered (court ordered) to review Buffy?
Heh. As long as the show keeps producing quality episodes like
"Passion," it's a hobby, and I'm having fun.
> Yes, she couldn't have known
> about the loophole in the curse. OTOH, Angel turning into Angelus
> was a metaphor for a guy changing nature after scoring. Should she
> have taken the risk of sleeping with *anyone* at that age? As Giles
> said, she "acted rashly".
I wouldn't generally recommend that seventeen-year-olds sleep with
people who've had bicentennials, but I thought at the time that they'd
established enough trust that it was an entirely understandable choice,
and one which she can't consider a mistake on her part (rationally,
that is... people in pain aren't always so rational). Of course, given
all the things she still didn't know about Angel, maybe that feeling
was deceptive.
-AOQ
Carlos Moreno
> Carlos Moreno wrote:
>
>> I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
>> think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, ***** is
>> incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
>> this one, ***** seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
>> yes, the ***** are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
>> new dimension...
>
>
> Carlos, spoilers! Plus, "expectation spoilers," which AoQ has already
> suggested he'd rather not see.
Oh yes -- you will have a hard time finding someone pickier than
me when it comes to spoilers; and yes, I perfectly understand
the notion of "expectation spoilers", and the notion that merely
knowing that there is a big deal about spoilers (for a specific
episode, for instance) constitutes a spoiler...
But again, it's been more than three days that AOQ (well, Elissa,
AKA Mrs. AOQ) said that they were about to watch the season finale
that day. That's why I was sure that it would be ok to skip
forward and talk about Becoming (not in-depth, it was just a
comparative thing, in the context of Ken's comment)
> what's fun about these discussions is limiting
> them to what we know up to the point we've reached.
Oh yes!!! I can not agree more with this!! Another detail that I
find pretty fun is that we're once in a while throwing a spoiler in
a way that only those who know the series catch -- for instance,
Espen's comment some time around Innocence (or Surprise?), telling
AOQ something like: "you got that? you want me to write it down
for you?" -- I really had a good laugh with that; and of course,
there was no way that AOQ could have known that it was a spoiler,
or be spoiled in any way by that comment that only those who know
the show caught.
Carlos
--
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> No. Oh, speaking of visions, I guess since Dru helped Angelus prevent
> the re-souling, Buffy's dream about her killing Angel can be said to
> have come to pass. (if anyone thinks that's already been fulfilled in
> any other metaphorical context, let me know, sinc I'm not seeing it).
>
Well, it was Drusilla's plan to put the Judge back together that set
off the sequence of events which ultimately resulted in Buffy and Angel
having sex, and Angel losing his soul. So maybe you could finagle it in
that way.
>
> Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you're right.
>
In addition to Spike's impatience, there's also the matter that Spike
seemed, on the whole, a much more pragmatic vampire than Angel. It's
not that Spike wasn't sadistic, he liked torturing his victims as much
as the next vampire, but you get the impression from the earlier
episodes where he's in charge that he wouldn't be the sort of villain
to say something like, "Death is too good for my enemies, I want them
to suffer," either. Spike is the kind of villain who'd make fun of that
villain, and then snap the hero's neck before they have a chance to
escape.
So watching Angel tormenting Buffy but letting her live, when he could
have killed her easily, must be fairly excruciating.
--Sam
rrh...@acme.com
KenM47 wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
> >unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
> >stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
> >actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
> >that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> >playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> >Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> >kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
>
> Angelus is three times the fiend Spike was painted as. Angelus is the
> master sadist. Spike's a Cub Scout in comparison.
Spike is basically a football hooligan, or one of those guys who will
get in a fight then have a drink with his opponent afterwards. He
likes violence for its own sake. Since he is a vampire the love of
violence is exaggerated, so that he will routinely kill and drink from
his opponent (which makes that drink afterwards problematic...). But
he is different from Angelus. Angelus is a sadist. The difference
between the two is one of kind, not merely of degree. They complement
one another such that under some circumstances their differences don't
matter, but their goals are not the same.
> >2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> >superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
> >always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
I see it more as being like the bookstore owner who loves literature
and finely crafted books, but who also stocks Jackie Collins and Tom
Clancy because, after all, there's rent to pay and James Joyce isn't
going to get it done.
> >3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> >does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> >anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
>
> Secret identity and all that. Watcher/Slayer tradition. How long can
> that go on as to Buffy?
It is also very teenager-like. Didn't we all sneak out of the house
sometimes? This is merely exaggerated in the Buffyverse. It isn't the
result of Buffy and Giles sitting down and doing a cost/benefit
analysis.
Richard R. Hershberger
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Interesting. I've found that (with the sole exception of _Cowboy
> Bebop_), I almost never notice music when watching TV (or most movies).
> It just doesn't register unless it's getting in the way. That'll be
> worth paying attention to on re-watchings.
>
There is one bit of the score in particular which cames to real
prominance this season, and eventually manages to become an essential
part of the emotional experience: The Buffy-Angel love theme. There's a
very specific bit of music they always play when the two of them are
having their Dramatic Romance, and it's used extraordinarily
effectively.
At the risk of mild spoilers, it is also used in one of the show's best
metatextual gags later on in the series, which one might miss if
they're not at least passingly aware when it's playing.
--Sam
kenm47
best
metatextual gags later on in the series, which one might miss if
they're not at least passingly aware when it's playing.
--Sam"
OK. That's a memory challenge. ROT 13:
Fbzrjurer va Gur Mrccb?
BTW, I tried to point that B/A theme out to AOQ when it made it's first
appearance in Surprise, IIRC. Can get to me just thinking about it, let
alone hearing the piano start plinking it out before the string section
kicks in.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Sam
Ohssl/Natry zrybqenzn, naq gur Ohssl/Natry Ybir Gurzr fperrpurf gb n
unyg. Gura, nf fbba nf ur yrnirf, vg xvpxf onpx vagb shyy fjvat.
Scythe Matters
> Interesting. I've found that (with the sole exception of _Cowboy
> Bebop_), I almost never notice music when watching TV (or most movies).
> It just doesn't register unless it's getting in the way. That'll be
> worth paying attention to on re-watchings.
Now *that's* a shame. Because the music on Buffy -- especially when from
the mind and hands of Chris Beck -- is extraordinary, sometimes beyond
belief.
Antipathy to music is also going to cause a rather specific problem down
the road. Several, actually. ;-)
Jeff Jacoby
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>> Curse.
>
> The curse makes more sense if you remember what the people who cast it
> were going for. They didn't care about justice or goodness or
> protecting the world from Angelus or any of that. It was a purely
> vengeance-driven expression of sadism. It's like a curse from a fairy
> tale -- what will inflict the most pain on the victim? If you're
> dealing with a handsome prince, you turn him into a monster, or a frog.
> Well, they were dealing with a monster, so they inflicted a conscience
> on him.
>
> But they didn't do it to make him into a nice person, or to make him a
> hero, or even to stop Angelus from eating people. Those were just happy
> side effects. The purpose was to make Angelus suffer, which it of
> course succeeded at in spades.
>
> If, however, Angel actually became *content* with his state of affairs,
> as he was beginning to become with Buffy, then the purpose of the curse
> has been broken. He's not suffering anymore. The soul has become a
> benefit to him, rather than a crushing agony. And they can't have that.
This begs the question, after he was cursed why didn't
they just tie him up and throw him into a hut for a hundred
years, where they could keep an eye on him, rather than
letting him loose in the world where who-knows-what might
happen?
Jeff
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Interesting. I've found that (with the sole exception of _Cowboy
> Bebop_), I almost never notice music when watching TV (or most movies).
> It just doesn't register unless it's getting in the way. That'll be
> worth paying attention to on re-watchings.
I've rewatched eps just to listen to Beck's scores. I even have a cd
of some of his more popular themes that a person made (there is, or
maybe used to be, a website where you could get a lot of score clips).
The thing that makes Beck's scores stand out from most of the other
series' composers is his use of leitmotif, mainly for characters'
relationships. The Buffy/Angel love theme is the most famous of them.
Giles and Jenny had one too, most noticable at the end of "Passion."
Chris Beck used to hang around here a little bit, which was way cool.
-- Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters
> This begs the question, after he was cursed why didn't
> they just tie him up and throw him into a hut for a hundred
> years, where they could keep an eye on him
They *were* keeping an eye on him.
I tend to think -- based on no particular evidence -- that they didn't
really contemplate the idea of him finding true happiness; that his
misery would be so all-consuming that he'd never emerge from it. After
all, this is how they viewed their own misery, so why should his be
different? They watched him to verify that he still suffered, but if
they believed he was likely to re-lose his soul at any given moment,
you'd think they'd have shared information about the trigger with their
"spies"...because, rather obviously, they would be among his first
targets. Which turned out to be the case: first the uncle, then Jenny.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Re: Angel's invitations, you'll notice how in the Angel/Willow scene
> from "Lie To Me" they lingered on the invitation a little, making sure
> the vieer would remember it? That's an example of how a scene can work
> both in its original context (inviting a vampire in is always a big
> deal, and Willow's simple thrill/apprehension about having such a big
> guy alone with her) and also as setup.
Good point. There was also WSWB, which explicitly made the point that
a vampire could come in whenever it wanted, once invited (Angel was
just being polite). Both eps written by Joss Whedon, of course. It's
fun to go back and see the foreshadowing that you didn't know was
foreshadowing the first time you saw it.
> No. Oh, speaking of visions, I guess since Dru helped Angelus prevent
> the re-souling, Buffy's dream about her killing Angel can be said to
> have come to pass. (if anyone thinks that's already been fulfilled in
> any other metaphorical context, let me know, sinc I'm not seeing it).
Ooh, I never thought of that. Man, I came back to this newsgroup at
just the right time.
-- Mike Zeares
kenm47
Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2006 06:57:00 -0800, Sam <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> >> Curse.
> >
<SNIP for length>
> >
> > If, however, Angel actually became *content* with his state of affairs,
> > as he was beginning to become with Buffy, then the purpose of the curse
> > has been broken. He's not suffering anymore. The soul has become a
> > benefit to him, rather than a crushing agony. And they can't have that.
>
> This begs the question, after he was cursed why didn't
> they just tie him up and throw him into a hut for a hundred
> years, where they could keep an eye on him, rather than
> letting him loose in the world where who-knows-what might
> happen?
>
>
> Jeff
ROT13:
V'ir fhttrfgrq rneyvre, lbh sbyx whfg qba'g trg ubj pbzcyrk guvf Ebznav
phefr vf. Lbh frrz gb guvax vg jbhyq abg rapbzcnff Natryhf pbzvat onpx,
naq yngre Natry ertnvavat pbageby bs gur uhfx jvgu Natryhf ohevrq
vafvqr. Natryhf univat oevrsyl orra serr ntnva naq abj n pncgvir iblrhe
nf Natry fgehttyrf jvgu uvf pbafpvrapr naq cnvaf sebz oryvrivat ur
pnaabg or jvgu uvf gehr ybir (nygubhtu bar jbhyq guvax gung gur jbeel
pbhyq gnxr gur rqtr bss gur cresrpg unccvarff bs univat uvf gehr 17
l.b. ybir gnxr uvz gb ure orq - jryy, uvf orq, ohg lbh xabj jung V
zrna) naq jung'f uvf cynpr va guvf jbeyq. Natry'f yngre cnva naq
qrcerffvba naq qrfcrengvba pbhyq or n fubj va vgfrys. Bu jnvg! Vg jnf.
Guvf vf n irel pbzcyrk phefr.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Just for the record, the following topics will no longer be dignified
> with a response (at least from me):
[snip]
> Have a nice day.
So we can still pick on you for your Cordelia hate? ;-)
-- Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters
> I've rewatched eps just to listen to Beck's scores.
Me too.
> The thing that makes Beck's scores stand out from most of the other
> series' composers is his use of leitmotif, mainly for characters'
> relationships.
Well, I'd say that it does make him stand out from most TV series'
composers (because they mostly suck), but not from the good ones, who do
indeed use them. Another good TV series composer was Chris Franke, who
littered his scores with themes and variations on themes attached to
characters (and also events).
> The Buffy/Angel love theme is the most famous of them.
Yes, absolutely...gubhtu Orpx frrzrq gb cersre gur Ohssl/Evyrl gurzr. V
pna frr uvf cbvag, orpnhfr grpuavpnyyl vg vf n orggre cvrpr bs zhfvp,
ohg gur ceboyrz vf gung gurer jrer ab Ohssl/Evyrl zbzragf gb zngpu gur
rzbgvbany cbjre bs vgf hfr va "Orpbzvat, VV" be gur raq bs "Snvgu, Ubcr
& Gevpx." Fb, va gur raq, V erfcbaq zber gb gur Ohssl/Natry gurzr,
orpnhfr vg "zrnag" zber. V nyfb ybirq ubj, nf frnfba guerr jrag nybat,
ur onfvpnyyl qrpbafgehpgrq naq "ntrq" gur O/N gurzr hagvy bayl ovgf,
cvrprf naq fhttrfgvbaf bs vg jrer yrsg ol gur raq bs gur frnfba. (Ur qvq
gur fnzr gb gur O/E gurzr ol gur gvzr ur yrsg, nf jryy.) Oevyyvnag jbex.
The difference in seasons when there were Beck scores mixed in with
non-Beck was just amazing.
> Chris Beck used to hang around here a little bit, which was way cool.
He seems to be doing well for himself, which makes me happy.
George W Harris
:Spike is basically a football hooligan, or one of those guys who will
:get in a fight then have a drink with his opponent afterwards.
Or actually in Spike's case, have a drink from his
opponent afterward.
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Patrician
"Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
news:NMadnda6hrVs0WDe...@rcn.net...
> Carlos Moreno wrote:
>
>> I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
>> think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, ***** is
>> incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
>> this one, ***** seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
>> yes, the ***** are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
>> new dimension...
>
> Carlos, spoilers! Plus, "expectation spoilers," which AoQ has already
> awesome the season 3 finale "Cordelia's Bad Perm" is, let's let him find
> out for himself, OK?
I much prefer the second part "The Chipped Fingernail".
> I agree that it's possible they've already watched the episodes in
> question, though also remember that we have at least one other newbie
> following along. Besides, what's fun about these discussions is limiting
> them to what we know up to the point we've reached. We don't need AoQ to
> talk about the series as a whole.
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Carlos, I understand where you are coming from on this.
>
> ROT13
>
> Ohg frnfba terngarff, VZB, yvrf jvgu Fnenu Z'f "Shyy bs Tenpr." V
> pnaabg guvax bs nabgure fubj gung yrsg zr fgnevat ng gur fperra arneyl
> nhqvoyl fboovat, srryvat nf qenvarq nf V gura sryg. Nznmvatyl, vg fgvyy
> trgf gb zr, n yvggyr yrff, ohg vg trgf gb zr.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
I, of course, am waiting with bated breath to see if AOQ's review for
Becoming II will contain those two immortal phrases:
1) Xander Lied!
and
2) What was that song?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1140700070.6...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Carlos, I understand where you are coming from on this.
> >
> > ROT13
> >
> > Ohg frnfba terngarff, VZB, yvrf jvgu Fnenu Z'f "Shyy bs Tenpr." V
> > pnaabg guvax bs nabgure fubj gung yrsg zr fgnevat ng gur fperra arneyl
> > nhqvoyl fboovat, srryvat nf qenvarq nf V gura sryg. Nznmvatyl, vg fgvyy
> > trgf gb zr, n yvggyr yrff, ohg vg trgf gb zr.
> >
> > Ken (Brooklyn)
>
> I, of course, am waiting with bated breath to see if AOQ's review for
> Becoming II will contain those two immortal phrases:
Ack! I was supposed to ROT-13 that! Well AOQ has said that he's a few
episodes ahead, maybe he's already got it written.
hopelessly devoted
Probably could have been stated better as Maybe the writers thought it
was time for a refresher course.
> > You didn't cry? There wasn't a lump in your throat?
> > The next scene with Angel smiling at the pain on Buffy and Willow's
> > face after you could almost hear him laughing as he took one final
> > glance at Gile's gift.
> >
> > You didn't ...... you didn't.......Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
>
> Nope. Heart of stone and all. Certainly effective stuff, it just
> didn't happen to rip out the core of my being. But the fact that it
> got such strong responses from so many people means that the show's
> doing something right, yes?
I appreciate a man who can stay fair and objective. (Naq vs vg jrer
Cnaqben'f obk lbh jrer bcravat V zvtug fnl "Tbbq ybbx jvgu gung". Ohg
guvf obk vf n yvggyr qvssrerag. Lbh zvtug npghnyyl arrq gb n juvc naq
n punve. V pnyy Bm'f genad tha.)
Don Sample
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> > Curse.
>
> The curse makes more sense if you remember what the people who cast it
> were going for. They didn't care about justice or goodness or
> protecting the world from Angelus or any of that. It was a purely
> vengeance-driven expression of sadism. It's like a curse from a fairy
> tale -- what will inflict the most pain on the victim? If you're
> dealing with a handsome prince, you turn him into a monster, or a frog.
> Well, they were dealing with a monster, so they inflicted a conscience
> on him.
It's not giving him a soul that doesn't make any sense. It's the "If he
ever experiences a moment of total happiness, he will lose his soul"
part of the curse that doesn't make any sense.
Even more so, that they never seem to have told him about it. If that
was part of the curse from the beginning, they should have rubbed it in.
"Ha ha! You will be miserable for the rest of your immortal life! And
if by some strange quirk of fate, you ever do become happy, you will
lose your soul and become a ravening monster again! Ha ha!"
kenm47
was part of the curse from the beginning, they should have rubbed it
in.
"Ha ha! You will be miserable for the rest of your immortal life! And
if by some strange quirk of fate, you ever do become happy, you will
lose your soul and become a ravening monster again! Ha ha!" "
That nagging feeling would cut down the odds of a moment of "true" (I
used to think that was "perfect") happiness.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Stephen Tempest
>Ohg frnfba terngarff, VZB, yvrf jvgu Fnenu Z'f "Shyy bs Tenpr." V
>pnaabg guvax bs nabgure fubj gung yrsg zr fgnevat ng gur fperra arneyl
>nhqvoyl fboovat, srryvat nf qenvarq nf V gura sryg. Nznmvatyl, vg fgvyy
>trgf gb zr, n yvggyr yrff, ohg vg trgf gb zr.
Absolutely. I even went out and bought the CD purely on the strength
of that one song...
Stephen
Jeff Jacoby
> Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>
>> This begs the question, after he was cursed why didn't
>> they just tie him up and throw him into a hut for a hundred
>> years, where they could keep an eye on him
>
> They *were* keeping an eye on him.
We only know that by the late 1990's they were keeping
an eye on him. We have no direct evidence of what they
were doing in the intervening years.
> I tend to think -- based on no particular evidence -- that they didn't
> really contemplate the idea of him finding true happiness; that his
> misery would be so all-consuming that he'd never emerge from it. After
> all, this is how they viewed their own misery, so why should his be
> different?
Because it's a big world and anything can happen? They
obviously thought there must have been some finite chance,
else why spy on him at all?
> They watched him to verify that he still suffered, but if
> they believed he was likely to re-lose his soul at any given moment,
> you'd think they'd have shared information about the trigger with their
> "spies"...because, rather obviously, they would be among his first
> targets. Which turned out to be the case: first the uncle, then Jenny.
Being aware of the loophole, no matter how unlikely they
thought it might come into play, they were incredibly stupid
to take even the slightest chance. Tie him up, keep him
captive and be certain he never gets a happy.
Jeff
Jeff Jacoby
>
> Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>> On 23 Feb 2006 06:57:00 -0800, Sam <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> >> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>> >> Curse.
>> >
>
><SNIP for length>
>
>> >
>> > If, however, Angel actually became *content* with his state of affairs,
>> > as he was beginning to become with Buffy, then the purpose of the curse
>> > has been broken. He's not suffering anymore. The soul has become a
>> > benefit to him, rather than a crushing agony. And they can't have that.
>>
>> This begs the question, after he was cursed why didn't
>> they just tie him up and throw him into a hut for a hundred
>> years, where they could keep an eye on him, rather than
>> letting him loose in the world where who-knows-what might
>> happen?
>>
un-rot13'd...
> This is a very complex curse.
The more complex a thing is the more likely something
will go wrong. That's why I suggested they should have
simplified the matter by keeping him captive and reducing
the number of outside influences.
Stupid curse, stupid gypsies (Pfft, we will speak of them no more).
Jeff
kenm47
will go wrong. That's why I suggested they should have
simplified the matter by keeping him captive and reducing
the number of outside influences."
ROT13
V frrz gb erpnyy Qneyn, Qeh naq Fcvxr ba n yvggyr Tlcfl pnzc envqvat
cnegl - (nsgre Natryhf unq unq uvf bja yvggyr envq?). Zvtug abg unir
orra gung znal nebhaq gb fgnaq thneq qhgl. Pbhyq or whfg abg gung znal
nebhaq.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters wrote:
> Mike Zeares wrote:
>
> > I've rewatched eps just to listen to Beck's scores.
>
> Me too.
>
> > The thing that makes Beck's scores stand out from most of the other
> > series' composers is his use of leitmotif, mainly for characters'
> > relationships.
>
> Well, I'd say that it does make him stand out from most TV series'
> composers (because they mostly suck), but not from the good ones, who do
> indeed use them. Another good TV series composer was Chris Franke, who
> littered his scores with themes and variations on themes attached to
> characters (and also events).
I was referring only to the other BtVS composers. Some of the others
reused themes, but not to the extent that Beck did. I liked Chris
Franke's work a lot too. I have one of his soundtrack CDs somewhere.
I just rewatched "Passion." I had forgotten that Beck used the
Giles/Jenny theme throughout the entire score, like the way he used the
Buffy/Angel theme in "Innocence."
-- Mike Zeares
Jeff Jacoby
ROT13:
Bxnl, tbbq cbvag. Gura unir gur ynfg pbhcyr bs tlcfvrf qb
fbzrguvat fvzvyne gb jung Pbaabe qvq: Gvr uvz gvtug, qhzc
uvz vagb n pbssva, naq ohel vg qrrc.
Jeff
kenm47
Bxnl, tbbq cbvag. Gura unir gur ynfg pbhcyr bs tlcfvrf qb
fbzrguvat fvzvyne gb jung Pbaabe qvq: Gvr uvz gvtug, qhzc
uvz vagb n pbssva, naq ohel vg qrrc.
Jeff "
Ah yes, the old "woulda, coulda, shoulda." :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
Scythe Matters
> We only know that by the late 1990's they were keeping
> an eye on him. We have no direct evidence of what they
> were doing in the intervening years.
True, but why then and not before? There's no reason for them to have
posted a watch on Angel at that particular time, but not before. It's
more sensible to conclude that the watch was ongoing, despite the lack
of direct evidence.
> Because it's a big world and anything can happen? They
> obviously thought there must have been some finite chance,
> else why spy on him at all?
First, if they thought there was a "finite chance," they'd have been
watching him the whole time (given that when they believed that it was a
*likely* chance, they sent Enyos to stop it), which defeats your
previous contention.
Second...
----
Enyos: (interrupts) The elder woman has been reading signs.
***Something is different.***
(and)
Enyos: We control nothing. We are not wizards, Janna. We merely play
our part.
Jenny: Angel could be of help to us. I mean, he may be the only chance
we have to stop the Judge.
Enyos: It is too late for that.
Jenny: Why?
Enyos: The curse. ***Angel is meant to suffer, not to live as human.***
One moment of true happiness, of contentment, one moment where the soul
that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, and that soul is taken
from him.
Jenny: Then, if somehow, if... if it's happened... then Angelus is
back.
Enyos: I hoped to stop it. But I realize now it was arranged to be so.
----
The starred text suggests that they didn't expect this event.
(Incidentally, it also suggests that the extended view of the curse --
that it's meant to include losing and regaining his soul to amp up the
pain, as some have suggested -- also wasn't intended.)
Third...
----
Jenny: I promise you. Angel still suffers. And he makes amends for his
evil. He even saved my life.
----
They sent a watcher, but they didn't tell her to watch for the
possibility of pure happiness? Why would they not tell her if that was
their concern? It defies logic. Jenny thinks she's to watch for
continued suffering, and (though this is perhaps her own interpretation
of her role) signs of his redemption. If they were previously concerned
about him losing his soul, they would have given her different
information about her mission.
> Being aware of the loophole, no matter how unlikely they
> thought it might come into play, they were incredibly stupid
> to take even the slightest chance.
Again...
----
Enyos: We control nothing. We are not wizards, Janna. We merely play
our part.
----
I don't think anyone disagrees that it's stupid from a strategic point
of view, especially in retrospect. But it's not strategic, as they go to
great pains to detail. It's vengeance.
> Tie him up, keep him captive and be certain he never gets a happy.
Given Angelus' history, that seems kinda dangerous. Then you're begging
the survival instinct to overcome his suffering. One slip-up, and he's
free and out of their control. If that were the direction of their
thinking and they were being logical, they'd have staked him, not cursed
him.
Even if they weren't willing to let him off the hook by staking him,
certainly *telling* him about the condition that uncurses him would have
better served their purposes *were they of the belief that it might
happen*. Theoretically, remorseful Angel does not want to become a
vampire again (chggvat nfvqr rkcybengvbaf bs guvf gurzr ba gur fcvabss,
juvpu unira'g unccrarq lrg), so he actually aids their cause if he knows
what can happen. Instead, they seem to have kept it a secret even from
some portion of their own people. That strongly suggests that they
weren't worried about Angel breaking the curse.
Scythe Matters
> I was referring only to the other BtVS composers.
Ah, OK. It wasn't clear because "series'" can refer to either the
possessive of the singular or the plural, I guess. ;-)
I did like the work that some other composers did, but "like" doesn't
approach how I feel about Beck's work. V zrna, gur "Pubfra" fpber vf
svar naq nyy, ohg vg'f pregnvayl abg rira va gur fnzr yrnthr nf "Gur Tvsg."
kenm47
we disagree on all of the ramifications of:
"Enyos: I hoped to stop it. But I realize now it was arranged to be
so."
and the follow up:
"Enyos: And now she will have to kill him.
Jenny: (stands up) Unless he kills her first! Uncle, this is insanity!
People are going to die.
Enyos: Yes. It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance."
Ken (Brooklyn)
Scythe Matters
> Well Scythe, regarding the curse and all it's curlicues, let's just say
> we disagree on all of the ramifications of
[deletia]
Yes, I think we do. ;-)
Sam
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1140706619.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> > > Curse.
> >
> > The curse makes more sense if you remember what the people who cast it
> > were going for. They didn't care about justice or goodness or
> > protecting the world from Angelus or any of that. It was a purely
> > vengeance-driven expression of sadism. It's like a curse from a fairy
> > tale -- what will inflict the most pain on the victim? If you're
> > dealing with a handsome prince, you turn him into a monster, or a frog.
> > Well, they were dealing with a monster, so they inflicted a conscience
> > on him.
>
> It's not giving him a soul that doesn't make any sense. It's the "If he
> ever experiences a moment of total happiness, he will lose his soul"
> part of the curse that doesn't make any sense.
>
Sure it does, for exactly the reason Enyos says -- they didn't want to
accidentally have their curse let the object of their vengeance lead a
happy, fulfilling productive life as a member of human society. They
didn't think there was much risk of that happening, but at the same
time, they recognized the possibiliy that letting Angelus have a soul
might eventually mean he'd start to, y'know, use it.
And they didn't want that to happen. If their curse ever became
something beneficial to Angelus, then they'd make sure it was taken
away.
Which is exactly what happened.
(And, again, there's the fairy tale aspect. True love always breaks the
curse.)
--Sam
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "The more complex a thing is the more likely something
> will go wrong. That's why I suggested they should have
> simplified the matter by keeping him captive and reducing
> the number of outside influences."
>
> ROT13
> Might not have
> been that many around to stand guard duty. Could be just not that many
> around.
They obviously had Jenny, and probably others before her. It really
doesn't make sense that they never told her about the escape clause in
the curse.
kenm47
doesn't make sense that they never told her about the escape clause in
the curse. "
It's vengeance we serve. We don't need no stinkin' "sense."
:-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
Ok, let me see if I can straighten this out:
Two Gypsies walk into a bar smiling
G1: Two Beers
Bartender: What are the two of you smiling about.
G2: We just cursed this freak vampire.
G1: Yeah. Bastard.
Bartender: Wow! Which curse did you use?
G2: Gave him back his soul.
G1: Should've seen the look on his face.
Bartender: That's a good one. What'd you do about that little clause.
G1: What clause?
Bartender: The "out" clause.
G2: Out Clause?
Bartender: You didn't read the fine print? Actual Size? Make sure
both hands are free? One moments happiness?
G1: Damn.
G2: Now what?
Bartender: Well, you've got two choices. You can curse him again or
you can watch him.
G2: Is there a curse that keeps people from finding happiness?
Bartender: Sure, there's a curse for everything.
G1: Does that one have an out clause?
Bartender: They all have an out clause.
G2: Then I guess we better watch then.
G1: I've got it. We'll tell him about the out clause.......
blank stare from G2 and Bartender.
G2: Good. We'll tell the vampire how to stop suffering and start
killing again.
G1: Ok. We'll watch.
Why wasn't Jenny told? Take a look at the timing of Jenny's
appearance. Looks like a rush job to me.
One Bit Shy
news:1140649192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
(or "I wanted to get right...")
Writer: Ty King
Director: Michael Gershman
Damn. My reader refuses to insert the > for your text. I'll have to quote.
<grumble> Hope it makes sense.
...
"At school, there's some status-quo stuff ("Watcher's pet,"
etc.)"
I get a kick out of that exchange... And Xander's right too.
...
"I don't
really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this episode.
Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic delivery
on "what if they don't respect my authority?""
You've already heard the explanation about justifying having her lead the
class later. And it's amusing in its own right. (Which makes it self
justifying.) But I think there's another story supporting reason. Part of
the show is about Jenny's redemption. So:
Step 1 - Get right with Willow.
Step 2 - Bring in the real problems - Giles and Buffy.
Step 3 - Remind Giles and Buffy - via Willow - that this is a problem that
needs to be dealt with.
...
"Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
reproach or something?"
I'm afraid I'm not in a position to disprove it.
...
"Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
snappy dialogue."
Here's my only Cordelia comment for the episode. I hope it's clear that
when she's running on about the car that it's really about her wanting to be
part of the group - which is still on uncertain grounds. As you can see
later at Willow's when she's told she can leave now and she kind of snaps
back at them - since she doesn't really want to leave.
...
"Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker."
Creepy. The whole show is creepy. Very much a mood piece.
...
"Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
obviously setting herself up to get in trouble."
Hmmm. You really think so? Hmmm. I've always gone right along with that.
I like the magic store scene for the technical stuff about the spell. "You
do know that the trans-literation annals for the ritual of the undead were
lost. Without the annals the surviving text is jibberish." Geek magic
talk. Aside from helping explain what Jenny is doing, I suspect it's just
poking fun at geeks everywhere.
...
"Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
photographed."
Even with the action it's still about mood. The feel of this episode is
classic scary horror. BtVS does that very well when it really aims for it,
but usually doesn't go quite that direction.
It's interesting that the extended chase offered hope of escape to you. I
gather others got that element too. For me it was building fear and
despair. I was kind of dumb when I first saw the show and had not a notion
that Jenny's time was near an end until Angel showed up in her classroom.
That was a shock. And then the chase gave me some more time for the idea to
well up more terrifying. It just got more hopeless. I don't quite know
why. People escape frequently on Buffy. But for some reason, after Angel
appeared, it seemed done to me.
...
"Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
weight to pull off the high melodrama."
Hmmm. I guess that was melodrama at the phone. But melodrama seen through
a window by Angel exulting in triumph. Hell of a touch. Made me cry.
And Buffy collapsing... My god, the weight that crashed down on her then.
Look at what her lover has done. And it's all her fault. And how awful was
she to Jenny when she last spoke to her. And how she's let Giles down....
Sorry. I just had to engage in some hair rending.
...
"...as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being."
That seems only half-way there to me. Just mean would be Spike. (This is
just...neat.) Angelus sees this as art. Their roles have somewhat
reversed - yes. But Angelus's ways are very different.
...
"...the ending suggests he may
have pushed the wrong button this time."
Yes he did. But would Angelus care?
...
"Buffy's acting like a
skilled Slayer..."
That's twice now that she's kicked Angel's butt in combat. Hmmm. Maybe he
should care if he pushed the wrong button. That night was mostly a triumph
for Angel. But he obviously wasn't counting on the retaliation. Which is
kind of dumb. How clearly is Angel thinking?
...
"Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
Slayer? Intriguing..."
"No fair going into the ring unless he tags you first." I love how dryly
Spike delivers that line. I guess Angel's on his own.
...
"The final shot of the disk falling behind
the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
come back to it or if it's lost forever."
Plus Buffy saying, "Nothing ever's going to bring him back," right before
it. Is that hope? Or lost opportunity? It's one of the places I tear up.
It's all loss to me then.
...
"1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
his narration."
Notice that Buffy does a little voice over at the end too. Seems to add
weight to her words to me.
I think the voice over in general adds to the atmosphere with tone and
ideas. (Somebody's whispering underlying themes of darkness to you as you
drink in the action.) The acting... could be debated. I thought it was
accepatable.
I confess I have a bias for such a device. Once upon a lost age I acted and
wrote in radio theater.
...
"4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
times the logic police point it out."
I think you're looking the wrong direction here. She's confessing to mom
that she slept with an older guy and now is in trouble over it. She has no
choice but to say it was a mistake.
Besides, as someone else pointed out, to Buffy, everything's her fault.
...
"AOQ rating: Good"
Hmmm. Let's see. Oh, yes. The dog. I laughed at that a lot. The moment
might also serve as an opening to ponder the similarities and differences
between human and vampire love.... Should you ever care to.
I also laughed a lot at Jonathon and friend interrupting everybody in the
library. "Does this look like a Barnes and Noble?". (After all, how often
do you see anybody but the gang in the library? Slayer Central.)
Did you notice how Angel kind of cracked his neck following both of his
killings? (There was one way back at the beginning if you forgot.) Neat
little mannerism.
"Faster Pussycat, Kill! Kill!" didn't work for me. Too campy for the
moment. Not many off moments though. It was a pretty taught show in my
estimation.
Lots of good commentary from others here. It's a very emotional show that
excites reaction befitting it's name. I hope you don't take too poorly
expressions of disappointment that it wasn't as emotional for you.
This would be an Excellent for me. The outstanding spooky horror feel to
it. The elegance of Angel's awful expression in both words and deed. The
terrible grief over the loss of Jenny that affects on numerous levels. And
the pressure on Buffy that's wounding her and steeling her at the same time.
I never got around to ranking the shows, but looking at the season list I
think I'd place it 3rd or 4th for this season. Essentially tied with When
She Was Bad - which I like a whole lot more than most.
One Bit Shy
news:1140701356....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> "My favorite Jenny scene in the ep is the Jenny/Buffy. ("... and I just
>
> want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according
> to
> several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
>
> ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they
> wrote
> needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect
> on
> Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
> 'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
> death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants
> her
> to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her
> life. "
>
> There is that. Funny though, as much as I thought Buffy was being
> unduly harsh and nasty, the follow up reads to me as Buffy saying to
> Jenny you're important to Giles so you are important to me, and some
> day I will get over it, so you can now come back into our lives.
I don't quite agree. Yes, Buffy got the guilts then and had to free Jenny
to see Giles. (Besides, Giles really needed it.) But when Jenny started
talking about making it up to her, Buffy cut her off sharply. She made it
very clear to Jenny that things weren't ok with her.
> Yes, she could have been more explicit, but I think what Buffy has to
> live with is that because she chose to not dust Angelus when she had
> the chance Jenny dies.
That's more important. But her bitterness towards Jenny I think is there
too.
OBS
William George Ferguson
wrote:
Gurl znl jryy unir zrnag gb qb gung, orsber Fcvxr naq Qeh unq gurve
riravat fanpx.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Arbitrar Of Quality
> So we can still pick on you for your Cordelia hate? ;-)
Feel free.
-AOQ
Don Sample
Gur tlcfl ryqre unq nyernql unq uvf zbzrag bs tybngvat: "Vg uhegf, lrf?
Tbbq. Vg jvyy uheg zber. ... Lbh qba'g erzrzore, Rirelguvat lbh'ir qbar
sbe n uhaqerq lrnef. Va n zbzrag, lbh jvyy. Gur snpr bs rirelbar lbh
xvyyrq. Bhe qnhtugre'f snpr. Gurl jvyy unhag lbh, naq lbh jvyy xabj jung
gehr fhssrevat vf." Gung jnf gur gvzr gb qb vg, ohg nsgre gung, ur whfg
yrg Natry tb.
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Why wasn't Jenny told? Take a look at the timing of Jenny's
> appearance. Looks like a rush job to me.
What rush? She'd been on the job for almost a year. Even if there was
some sort of rush to get her into position to start with, they'd had
lots of time to brief her after she took the job.
George W Harris
wrote:
:It was a pretty taught show in my
:estimation.
<peeve>
"Taut"
<\peeve>
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Daniel Damouth
news:11vseua...@news.supernews.com:
> Damn. My reader refuses to insert the > for your text. I'll have
> to quote. <grumble> Hope it makes sense.
Download free agent or xnews.
-DD
John Briggs
> In article <1140700070.6...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Carlos, I understand where you are coming from on this.
>>
>> ROT13
>>
>> Ohg frnfba terngarff, VZB, yvrf jvgu Fnenu Z'f "Shyy bs Tenpr." V
>> pnaabg guvax bs nabgure fubj gung yrsg zr fgnevat ng gur fperra
>> arneyl nhqvoyl fboovat, srryvat nf qenvarq nf V gura sryg.
>> Nznmvatyl, vg fgvyy trgf gb zr, n yvggyr yrff, ohg vg trgf gb zr.
>>
>
> I, of course, am waiting with bated breath to see if AOQ's review for
> Becoming II will contain those two immortal phrases:
>
> 1) Xander Lied!
> and
> 2) What was that song?
You know, perhaps it is just me, but that had me puzzling as to which song
Das Xanderlied was...
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Are we discussing fiction or fact. Fiction being that we will roll
> this issue around forever and still never come to a resolution because
> of the facts. The facts: Jenny Calendar of the Kalderash clan was
> first seen in Angel (B and A getting close) which was coincidentally
> the ep right before. I say coincidentally because her original role
> was nothing more than love interest for Giles.
>
> Seems like a rush job to me because the facts are very clear. She was
> hired on to play Nicki which was later changed to Jenny and nothing
> more. Somewhere down the line, I believe well down the line, they got
> the idea that it would make for a great story line (because other than
> dear old uncle spilling the beans, there are no prior eps that truely
> support the Gypsy vigil).
All of which is totally irrelevant at the time of Surprise/Innocence.
Jenny was an established character who had been in Sunnydale for almost
a year. Even if they didn't decide to make her Angel's watcher until
they were writing 'Surprise,' part of the backstory for that decision
would have been that she'd been watching him for a year, so the clan had
a year in which to fully brief her about Angel's curse.
One Bit Shy
news:3rosv15qjuerrg75m...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:48:39 -0500, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>
> wrote:
>
> :It was a pretty taught show in my
> :estimation.
>
> <peeve>
>
> "Taut"
LOL Sloppy. But that deserves a peeve too.
One Bit Shy
news:Xns9773B5FCF78A...@66.75.164.120...
I have xnews. Don't like it as well for this purpose. That was an unusual
event.
OBS
Jeff Jacoby
> Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>
>> We only know that by the late 1990's they were keeping
>> an eye on him. We have no direct evidence of what they
>> were doing in the intervening years.
>
> True, but why then and not before? There's no reason for them to have
> posted a watch on Angel at that particular time, but not before. It's
> more sensible to conclude that the watch was ongoing, despite the lack
> of direct evidence.
>
>> Because it's a big world and anything can happen? They
>> obviously thought there must have been some finite chance,
>> else why spy on him at all?
>
> First, if they thought there was a "finite chance," they'd have been
> watching him the whole time (given that when they believed that it was a
> *likely* chance, they sent Enyos to stop it), which defeats your
> previous contention.
Actually it was not so much a contention as an observation, so there's
nothing to defeat.
> Second...
>
Highlighting the starred text of the Jenny-Enyos dialog...
> Enyos: (interrupts) The elder woman has been reading signs.
> ***Something is different.***
[snip]
> Enyos: The curse. ***Angel is meant to suffer, not to live as human.***
> One moment of true happiness, of contentment, one moment where the soul
> that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, and that soul is taken
> from him.
[snip]
> The starred text suggests that they didn't expect this event.
I don't quite see this as you do. The second passage
("not meant to live as human") falls more in favor of
keeping him captive, I think.
> Third...
>
> ----
>
> Jenny: I promise you. Angel still suffers. And he makes amends for his
> evil. He even saved my life.
>
> ----
>
> They sent a watcher, but they didn't tell her to watch for the
> possibility of pure happiness? Why would they not tell her if that was
> their concern? It defies logic.
Agreed... They were stupid.
[snip]
> Again...
>
> ----
>
> Enyos: We control nothing. We are not wizards, Janna. We merely play
> our part.
That's a cop-out on their part. They had control enough to
create the curse in the first place (even if they couldn't
control all the details and fine print). They expect their
spy to act and make sure he continues to suffer (i.e. exerting
a measure of control).
> I don't think anyone disagrees that it's stupid from a strategic point
> of view, especially in retrospect. But it's not strategic, as they go to
> great pains to detail. It's vengeance.
>
>> Tie him up, keep him captive and be certain he never gets a happy.
>
> Given Angelus' history, that seems kinda dangerous. Then you're begging
> the survival instinct to overcome his suffering. One slip-up, and he's
> free and out of their control. If that were the direction of their
> thinking and they were being logical, they'd have staked him, not cursed
> him.
So the three scenarios are:
1. Curse him. Let him free into the world to suffer. Watch from
afar so we'll hopefully find out in time if he's about to
stop suffering.
2. Curse him. Hold him captive. Watch up close as he suffers
in captivity (were he's less likely to get any moment of
happiness than if he were free). And if he manages to escape,
well that'd suck, but you're no worse off than #1
3. Stake him right away. No fuss, some dust, no suffering.
I suggest #2 would cause the most suffering for the longest
time.
> Even if they weren't willing to let him off the hook by staking him,
> certainly *telling* him about the condition that uncurses him would have
> better served their purposes *were they of the belief that it might
> happen*. Theoretically, remorseful Angel does not want to become a
> vampire again
Suppose he was a serial killer before being vamped?
> (chggvat nfvqr rkcybengvbaf bs guvf gurzr ba gur fcvabss,
> juvpu unira'g unccrarq lrg), so he actually aids their cause if he knows
> what can happen. Instead, they seem to have kept it a secret even from
> some portion of their own people. That strongly suggests that they
> weren't worried about Angel breaking the curse.
If they weren't worried then why spy on him at all?
I think what it really suggests is that they were stupid.
Jeff
Mel
Sam wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>>Curse.
>
>
> The curse makes more sense if you remember what the people who cast it
> were going for. They didn't care about justice or goodness or
> protecting the world from Angelus or any of that. It was a purely
> vengeance-driven expression of sadism. It's like a curse from a fairy
> tale -- what will inflict the most pain on the victim? If you're
> dealing with a handsome prince, you turn him into a monster, or a frog.
> Well, they were dealing with a monster, so they inflicted a conscience
> on him.
>
> But they didn't do it to make him into a nice person, or to make him a
> hero, or even to stop Angelus from eating people. Those were just happy
> side effects. The purpose was to make Angelus suffer, which it of
> course succeeded at in spades.
>
> If, however, Angel actually became *content* with his state of affairs,
> as he was beginning to become with Buffy, then the purpose of the curse
> has been broken. He's not suffering anymore. The soul has become a
> benefit to him, rather than a crushing agony. And they can't have that.
I think an argument can be made that Angelus, the demon inside Angel,
would suffer _even more_ when Angel is happy. (teeny possible spoiler:
Erzrzore va VBURSL ubj Natryhf ungrq srryvat ybir naq sryg ur unq gb
fpeho vg bss uvf fxva?) Angel in love could be the absolute worst
torture for Angelus, who thrives on and most enjoys pain and sorrow.
The way it actually works, the curse punishes the soul (of Liam) as much
as it punishes the demon. When the soul no longer suffers the demon no
longer suffers either, ie it's free again. You'd think there'd be a way
to do the latter without the former, but maybe that's too complicated
for a "simple" gypsy curse.
Mel
>
>
> Plus, it's a curse. It operates on fairy tale rules. There's always
> some weird clause that breaks the curse. Remember, losing his soul
> wasn't the curse. *Having* a soul was the curse. And just like Beauty
> and the Beast or the Frog Prince or whatever, the curse was broken by
> true love. It's just that in this case, the curse is what was keeping
> the handsome prince a handsome prince, and when the curse was broken,
> he turned back into a beast.
>
> --Sam
>
Mel
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> hopelessly devoted wrote:
> > Are we discussing fiction or fact. Fiction being that we will roll
> > this issue around forever and still never come to a resolution because
> > of the facts. The facts: Wraal Pnyraqne bs gur Xnyqrenfu pyna jnf
> > svefg frra va Natry (O naq N trggvat pybfr) juvpu jnf pbvapvqragnyyl
> > gur rc evtug orsber. V fnl pbvapvqragnyyl orpnhfr ure bevtvany ebyr
> > jnf abguvat zber guna ybir vagrerfg sbe Tvyrf.
> >
<snip some ROT-13 stuff>
> Fbeel, vg fubhyq ernq
> svefg frra nsgre Natry
Why are you ROT-13ing any of that? You are discussing events that have
already transpired.
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> I'm a little confused so bare with me.......
>
> The left a plothole.
>
> Are you trying to prove or disprove this?
I'm saying that leaving Jenny in the dark about the curse's exit clause
was a stupid thing for the Kalderash to do. When the writers decided to
make Jenny a spy is completely irrelevant to that.
Clairel
Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:39:00 -0500, Scythe <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> > Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> >
> >> they just tie him up and throw him into a hut for a hundred
> >> years, where they could keep an eye on him
> >
> > They *were* keeping an eye on him.
>
> We only know that by the late 1990's they were keeping
> an eye on him. We have no direct evidence of what they
> were doing in the intervening years.
>
> > really contemplate the idea of him finding true happiness; that his
> > misery would be so all-consuming that he'd never emerge from it. After
> > all, this is how they viewed their own misery, so why should his be
> > different?
>
> Because it's a big world and anything can happen? They
> obviously thought there must have been some finite chance,
> else why spy on him at all?
>
> > they believed he was likely to re-lose his soul at any given moment,
> > you'd think they'd have shared information about the trigger with their
> > "spies"...because, rather obviously, they would be among his first
> > targets. Which turned out to be the case: first the uncle, then Jenny.
>
> Being aware of the loophole, no matter how unlikely they
> thought it might come into play, they were incredibly stupid
> to take even the slightest chance. Tie him up, keep him
> captive and be certain he never gets a happy.
--I tend to think that just keeping Angel captive and feeding him pig's
blood once a day would make Angel's life too simple and free of anxiety
to satisfy the gypsies' vengefulness.
I'm making a distinction here between guilt and anxiety. A captive
Angel would feel guilt about his past crimes, certainly. But an Angel
who is at large in the world and has to make his own way will feel not
only guilt about the past, but also anxiety about the future. Every
time he finds it hard to get hold of some animal blood to satisfy his
hunger, he'll find it hard to be around people without biting ino them.
He'll face constant dilemmas about what is and isn't morally
acceptable. For instance, if he comes upon somebody who has been
violently attacked and is on the point of death, or has just died, is
it okay to take blood from the dead or dying person? I mean, why let
good blood go to waste? And if the guy is doomed to die anyway,
through no fault of Angel's . . . But that's a slippery slope to set
one's foot on, isn't it?
If Angel were captive his existence would be boring and monotonous, but
he'd have the comfort of knowing he couldn't do any more harm. Whereas
being at large in the world keeps him constantly on edge.
For the gypsies, the chance he'd have that moment of perfect happiness
while at large in the world was an acceptable risk, given the gains
they got by maximizing his anxiety.
Clairel
Michael Ikeda
news:dsample-89310C...@news.giganews.com:
(snipped)
>
> I'm saying that leaving Jenny in the dark about the curse's exit
> clause was a stupid thing for the Kalderash to do. When the
> writers decided to make Jenny a spy is completely irrelevant to
> that.
>
Apparently the Kalderash have roughly the same attitude as the
Watcher's Council when it comes to sharing information with
underlings...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Michael Ikeda
news:r4CdnV1Ovun...@rcn.net:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad
>> Eggs"), does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that
>> it benefits anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
>
> Seriously, now: what does Buffy say to her?
>
> "Hey, Mom. Listen...I'm The Chosen One, I'm a vampire slayer, I
> kill demons in my spare time, I've saved the entire world
> several times, I sneak out of the house every night even when
> I'm grounded, I (and Willow, and Xander, and Giles) lie to you
> on a daily basis, and I'm likely to die any day now. By the way,
> Oz is a werewolf. You were possessed by a giant slug and your
> last boyfriend was an evil robot. Oh, yeah, and incidentally I
> just gave it up to a 200+ year old guy who just snapped my
> computer teacher's neck and is killing my classmates. Uh...if
> you see him anywhere, run."
>
It does occur to me that, if she waits until the night before the
next full moon, Buffy can at least provide a convincing demonstration
of the "Oz is a werewolf" part. Explaining the rest would be much
easier after that.
One nitpick. I think Joyce actually saw enough to know that her last
boyfriend was an evil robot.
BTR1701
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in
> news:r4CdnV1Ovun...@rcn.net:
>
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
>
> >
> >> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad
> >> Eggs"), does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that
> >> it benefits anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
> >
> > Seriously, now: what does Buffy say to her?
> >
> > "Hey, Mom. Listen...I'm The Chosen One, I'm a vampire slayer, I
> > kill demons in my spare time, I've saved the entire world
> > several times, I sneak out of the house every night even when
> > I'm grounded, I (and Willow, and Xander, and Giles) lie to you
> > on a daily basis, and I'm likely to die any day now. By the way,
> > Oz is a werewolf. You were possessed by a giant slug and your
> > last boyfriend was an evil robot. Oh, yeah, and incidentally I
> > just gave it up to a 200+ year old guy who just snapped my
> > computer teacher's neck and is killing my classmates. Uh...if
> > you see him anywhere, run."
> >
>
> It does occur to me that, if she waits until the night before the
> next full moon, Buffy can at least provide a convincing demonstration
> of the "Oz is a werewolf" part. Explaining the rest would be much
> easier after that.
She could provide quite a few convincing demonstration of her own. All
she has to do is go outside and lift up the car.
BTR1701
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Are we discussing fiction or fact. Fiction being that we will roll
> this issue around forever and still never come to a resolution because
> of the facts. The facts: Wraal Pnyraqne bs gur Xnyqrenfu pyna jnf
> svefg frra va Natry (O naq N trggvat pybfr) juvpu jnf pbvapvqragnyyl
> gur rc evtug orsber. V fnl pbvapvqragnyyl orpnhfr ure bevtvany ebyr
> jnf abguvat zber guna ybir vagrerfg sbe Tvyrf.
>
> Frrzf yvxr n ehfu wbo gb zr orpnhfr gur snpgf ner irel pyrne. Fur jnf
> uverq ba gb cynl Avpxv juvpu jnf yngre punatrq gb Wraal naq abguvat
> zber. Fbzrjurer qbja gur yvar, V oryvrir jryy qbja gur yvar, gurl tbg
> gur vqrn gung vg jbhyq znxr sbe n terng fgbel yvar (orpnhfr bgure guna
> qrne byq hapyr fcvyyvat gur ornaf, gurer ner ab cevbe rcf gung gehryl
> fhccbeg gur Tlcfl ivtvy).
>
> Gurl svyyrq va gur oynaxf, zbfg ohg abg nyy, naq crbcyr unir orra
> orngvat gurve urnqf ntnvafg n jnyy gelvat gb znxr frafr bs fbzrguvat
> gung gurl ehfurq gb chyy bss, dhvgr jryy VZB. Gurl pynvzrq gur evtug
> bs negvfgvp yvoregl naq gur qvfphffvba bs gur "jul qvqa'g jub fnl guvf
> nobhg gung orsber lbh xabj jub unq n punapr gb qb lbh xabj jung?"
> juvyr ragregnvavat vf tbvat gb erznva sberire haerfbyirq orpnhfr rira
> gurl qvqa'g pbaarpg gubfr cnegvphyne qbgf. Gur ernfba gurer vf gur
> anttvat ubyr vf orpnhfr gurl qvq n ehfu wbo.
>
> Abj gur erny dhrfgvba vf jung fgbelyvar jbhyq gurl unir hfrq unq gurl
> xvyyrq Bm vafgrnq bs Wraal nf "bevtvanyyl" cneg bs gur cyna. Jbhyq
> gung nyfb unir vaibyirq Natry. Vs fb ubj? Naq vs abg, jung ebhgr
> jbhyq gurl unir gnxra? Naq ubj jbhyq gung ebhgr unir nssrpgrq gur
> bhgpbzr? Vs ng nyy........
You didn't have to scramble all that. Nothing in there is a spoiler for
anything up to the episode "Passion".
Michael Ikeda
news:5kjqv1h65u6555nb7...@4ax.com:
> On 22 Feb 2006 14:59:52 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>Also,
>>was I the only one who responded to Angel's appearance by
>>mentally yelling "run, you moron!" (don't know if it would have
>>helped, but...)? And why doesn't she carry a cross?
>
> As shown when she did run, it wouldn't have.
One interesting note that I haven't seen any commentary on is Angelus'
little "playing with the food" moment when he quotes the sign on the
school that translates into "Enter all ye who seek knowledge".
(Of course, as both Jenny and Angelus know, the school counts as a
public place so Angelus doesn't need an invitation. And even if he did
need an invitation, they both know that Angel had already been in the
school more than once. One possibility is that Jenny simply lost track
of the time.)
Stephen Tempest
>One nitpick. I think Joyce actually saw enough to know that her last
>boyfriend was an evil robot.
Va frnfba 4 fur npghnyyl fnlf "Qba'g trg zr jebat, V'z fgvyy n yvggyr
tha ful. Pregnvayl qvqa'g uryc gung zl ynfg oblsevraq ghearq bhg gb or
n ubzvpvqny ebobg." Fb rvgure fur erzrzorerq nyy nybat, be svaqvat bhg
nobhg Ohssl va Orpbzvat yvsgrq gur irvyf bs Fhaalqnyr Sbetrgglvgvf...
(kudos to AoQ for coming up with that phrase, incidentally)
...naq fur erzrzorerq nobhg Grq gura...
Stephen
Sam
Mel wrote:
>
> I think an argument can be made that Angelus, the demon inside Angel,
> would suffer _even more_ when Angel is happy. (teeny possible spoiler:
> Erzrzore va VBURSL ubj Natryhf ungrq srryvat ybir naq sryg ur unq gb
> fpeho vg bss uvf fxva?) Angel in love could be the absolute worst
> torture for Angelus, who thrives on and most enjoys pain and sorrow.
>
> The way it actually works, the curse punishes the soul (of Liam) as much
> as it punishes the demon. When the soul no longer suffers the demon no
> longer suffers either, ie it's free again. You'd think there'd be a way
> to do the latter without the former, but maybe that's too complicated
> for a "simple" gypsy curse.
>
I was worried about how to comment on this, but then I realized that my
viewpoint on it now is pretty much the same as it was in season 2, so:
I'm not convinced that the distinction between the soul and the demon
are as cut and dried as you make it out to be. Although separate in
theory, when Angel has a soul, he still only possesses a single
consciounsess. It's not as if Angelus is locked up in Angel's
subconscious somewhere, like a separate being. There's just the one
mind in his head. One set of emotions, one set of memories, one set of
thoughts, and so forth.
If he's happy, then he's happy. It's not as if Angel is happy, and
Angelus is miserable somewhere inside him. While the curse is in
effect, at least, they're the same guy. Which is why even when he has a
soul, Angel still has all of Angelus' sadistic, monstrous urges and
tendencies -- he just feels bad about it.
--Sam
Jeff Jacoby
I understand what you're getting at, but I don't agree
the additional anxiety means much in comparison to the
guilt of hundreds or thousands of deaths.
- If he's tied up, confined and alone, he'd have *nothing*
else to do BUT re-live all the deaths he caused, day in
and day out, 24/7, for tens or hundreds of years.
- Given that the magics are imperfect (hence the loophole
in the first place), how do they know he didn't get the
soul of, say, a serial killer? He wouldn't be feeling
much anxiety in your scenario above (nor much guilt, either,
I admit).
- And if he does now have the soul of a serial killer...well
it still makes more sense to confine him so that he's at
least suffering from the loneliness and boredom.
- Or suppose he's feeling so bad about everything he did
he decides to catch the sunrise the day after receiving
the soul. Poof, he's gone, no more suffering. Probably
not what the gypsies wanted (they wanted eternal suffering)
Jeff