AOQ Review 2-17: "Passion"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
(or "I wanted to get right...")
Writer: Ty King
Director: Michael Gershman
After a painful show like 3B, I usually go through a period of doubt
and feeling confrontational towards the show. Convince me, stupid
vampire show, that you're still worth watching. And it doesn't
help that so far the show hasn't done that right away - IRYJ was
followed by the initially-dull TPS, SAR by the uneven "School
Hard," and BE by the rather bland "Surprise." So how about
throwing me a bone this time? Well...
"Passion" opens with a montage of people looking happy and such.
I'd nitpick over how quickly Willow got over the "won't even talk
to [Xander]" stage mentioned in 3B, but I'm all in favor of any
excuse to ignore that episode, so we'll move on. The four teenage
leads enjoy a moment of calm while Angel watches from the shadows. And
ends up lying down next to our favorite Slayer. He's a practitioner
of real psychological warfare, like we haven't seen thus far in the
series. As a viewer, I was a little disoriented watching at this
point, wondering whether this was some kind of flashback or something,
but that quickly gets cleared up.
At school, there's some status-quo stuff ("Watcher's pet,"
etc.), which I think mainly serves the purpose of injecting some light
moments to balance out all the doom and gloom to come. I don't
really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this episode.
Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic delivery
on "what if they don't respect my authority?" My hunch is that
someone thought it was particularly important to set up the theme of
saving files on disk, but I'd disagree. [An interesting story of how
people have different reactions... during the part where Willow is
agonizing over all the things that could go wrong if she were running
class, Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
reproach or something?]
Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
make what's yet to come more depressing.
Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
snappy dialogue.
Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker.
Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
doing so. Not nuclear physics. Also, was I the only one who responded
to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
(don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
carry a cross?
Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
"shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
weight to pull off the high melodrama.
With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
"Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
Slayer? Intriguing...
The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
since that's not common behavior for most people. Going through with
the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
come back to it or if it's lost forever.
Some short takes:
1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
his narration.
2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
times the logic police point it out.
5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
"regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
have to play along with that.
Well, you're back on my good side, show. Keep it up.
So...
One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good
8) "The Dark Age" - Good
9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
11) "Ted" - Excellent
12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
13) "Surprise" - Decent
14) "Innocence" - Excellent
15) "Phases" - Decent
16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
17) "Passion" - Good]
Michael Ikeda
news:1140649192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> At school, there's some status-quo stuff ("Watcher's pet,"
> etc.), which I think mainly serves the purpose of injecting some
> light moments to balance out all the doom and gloom to come. I
> don't really see why the fluff with the computer class is in
> this episode. Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's
> classic delivery on "what if they don't respect my authority?"
> My hunch is that someone thought it was particularly important
> to set up the theme of saving files on disk, but I'd disagree.
It also sets up the fact that Willow DOES take over the computer
class after Jenny dies.
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really
> Stupid Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the
> idea. It's unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for
> me, that she's so obviously setting herself up to get in
> trouble. You're a savvy internet-using member of the late
> twentieth century; have you never seen a horror movie? You
> don't explain your dangerous plans to random characters who
> could easily betray you or be intimidated into doing so. Not
> nuclear physics.
Given Dru's vision, it probably wouldn't have mattered whether she
told the shop owner what she was doing. Angelus would likely have
paid her a visit anyway.
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads
> is done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't
> hear the dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it
> works because the rest of the episode (and the series) has
> established the necessary weight to pull off the high melodrama.
There's an interesting little note in that scene. Buffy silently
implodes while Willow cries openly. And so Joyce first comforts
Willow.
> Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm
> interested in continuing to see one or two per episode, as long
> as they eventually go somewhere. For now, it's small steps:
> Drusilla seems a little more manipulative, Angelus a little more
> condescending, Spike a little more annoyed... There's also a
> legitimate strategic disagreement running along with their
> personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his personal
> style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
> have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he
> may have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like
> a skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't
> been since "Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep
> that up in small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru
> to stay out of the personal conflict is weird; what happened to
> ganging up on the Slayer? Intriguing...
The thing about Angelus is that he doesn't really CARE that much
whether his toying with Buffy is actually more effective. He wants
to cause the maximum amount of pain. Whether this helps him
ultimately kill Buffy is almost beside the point.
>
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is
> impressive since that's not common behavior for most people.
> Going through with the funeral footage helps it sink in that
> Calendar is really gone (just like a real funeral does). The
> final shot of the disk falling behind the shelf in a nice way to
> close this one, regardless of whether they come back to it or if
> it's lost forever.
>
>
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad
> Eggs"), does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it
> benefits anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
It's been a long time since there's been any real benefit to keeping
Joyce in the dark. However, both Giles' and Buffy's natural
instincts in such matters tends toward secrecy. And with Angel now
soulless there's the not-so-little matter of presenting convincing
evidence.
Na nqqvgvbany crefbany ernfba sbe Ohssl abg gryyvat Wblpr vf tvira va
Frnfba fvk.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
> (or "I wanted to get right...")
> Writer: Ty King
> Director: Michael Gershman
bakers dozen parades, stand and debate...
>
<snip>
[An interesting story of how
> people have different reactions... during the part where Willow is
> agonizing over all the things that could go wrong if she were running
> class, Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
> fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
> way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
> that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
> reproach or something?]
Although I love everything about "Passion"... this made me laugh.
>
> Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
> trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
> want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
> all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
> make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
> really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
> make what's yet to come more depressing.
>
> Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
> silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
> but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
> cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
> vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
> exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
> snappy dialogue.
>
> Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker.
That is actually one of my favorite scenes.
>
<snip>
>
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
> done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
> dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
> the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
> weight to pull off the high melodrama.
>
> With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
> unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
> stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
> actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
> that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Yeah, Angelus is definitely a sadistic SOB. DB plays this part so well.
Also, it is really fun to hate Angelus.
>
> Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
> continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
> somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
> manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
> annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
> along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
> personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
> have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
> have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
> skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
> "Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
> small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
> the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
> Slayer? Intriguing...
It really does have to make you wonder the reasoning behind Spike's
actions here.
>
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
> since that's not common behavior for most people. Going through with
> the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
> like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
> the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
> come back to it or if it's lost forever.
>
> Some short takes:
>
> 1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
> voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
> because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
> bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
> Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
> his narration.
I thought the narration added a nice touch to the episode.
>
<snip>
>
> Well, you're back on my good side, show. Keep it up.
>
I wish I could comment more but it's really been a long time since I've
watched this episode. If you decide to continue on to Season 3, I'll
start watching them to follow along since I own 3-7.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I agree.
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
>(or "I wanted to get right...")
>Writer: Ty King
>Director: Michael Gershman
First things first: feel free to watch the interview with Whedon in
the special features. I just did. No spoilers
<SNIP>
>
>"Passion" opens with a montage of people looking happy and such.
>I'd nitpick over how quickly Willow got over the "won't even talk
>to [Xander]" stage mentioned in 3B, but I'm all in favor of any
>excuse to ignore that episode, so we'll move on. The four teenage
>leads enjoy a moment of calm while Angel watches from the shadows. And
>ends up lying down next to our favorite Slayer. He's a practitioner
>of real psychological warfare, like we haven't seen thus far in the
>series. As a viewer, I was a little disoriented watching at this
>point, wondering whether this was some kind of flashback or something,
>but that quickly gets cleared up.
I just finished re-watching this one. Probably the 5th time or 6th
I've seen it. It's an amazing hour. This episode should have gotten an
Emmy, or at least a Hugo. Incredibly creepy. Major sad. Perfect? Maybe
not, but great. And the absolutely incredible thing is it is not the
best episode of the season.
<SNIP>
>" She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
>way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
>that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
>reproach or something?]
I don't know either. But I get what you're saying.
BTW, my wife cannot stand SMG OR AH, so count yourself lucky.
>
>Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
>trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
>want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
>all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
>make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
>really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
>make what's yet to come more depressing.
And Buffy, without any prodding that we're ket in on, makes the move
for the truce in the schoolyard. All is well. For a second.
<SNIP>
BTW, Jenny was looking for the curse to recurse Angelus, not for a
curse removal.
>
>Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
>unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
>obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
>internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
>seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
>random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
>doing so. Not nuclear physics. Also, was I the only one who responded
>to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
>(don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
>carry a cross?
Yes. Damsel in distress. The anti-Buffy theme. And it works. Works
tremendously well because we care about her, and we care about what
she means to Giles.
>
>Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
>photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
>irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
>before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
>quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
>moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
>"shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
>she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
>both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
>little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
And Angelus' kill orgasm. Go listen to what Joss says about all this.
>
>Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
>done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
>dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
>the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
>weight to pull off the high melodrama.
You betcha!
>
>With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
>unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
>stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
>actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
>that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
>playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
>Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
>kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Angelus is three times the fiend Spike was painted as. Angelus is the
master sadist. Spike's a Cub Scout in comparison.
BTW, you realize we had never seen nor heard that Giles had ever
invited Angel into his house. BUT when at Buffy's to pick up the spell
book Giles says to Willow he's going to do his place that night (neat
little fill in that there must have been an invite sometime even if
we never saw it).
>
>Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
>continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
>somewhere.
Dru and the puppy? A riot. "Open wide." Vampire comic relief.
> For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
>manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
>annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
>along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
>personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
>thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
>have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
>have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
>skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
>"Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
>small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
>the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
>Slayer? Intriguing...
You're kidding right? Xander's not the only one that would like to
eliminate a rival for his lady's affections. Roller Boy too has
decided un-life was a lot more fun without Angelus around. Angelus has
no buddy/buddy loyalty to Spike, andf the sentiment is returned.
>
>The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
>shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
>since that's not common behavior for most people.
And an emotional killer. I teared up yet again.
>Going through with
>the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
>like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
>the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
>come back to it or if it's lost forever.
Ah, 1998 and floppy disks. I'm surprised it wasn't a recycled AOL
giveaway.
>
>Some short takes:
>
>1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
>voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
>because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
>bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
>Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
>his narration.
>
Worked for me. I think there's another version, possibly a wild feed
where someone else does the voiceover, maybe Giles? Or I'm confusing
it with something else.
>2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
>superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
>always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
And "Buffy" will always stick humor in the oddest places.
>
>3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
>does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
>anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
Secret identity and all that. Watcher/Slayer tradition. How long can
that go on as to Buffy?
>
>4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
>screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
>that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
>times the logic police point it out.
I think we're getting into the curse thing, not necessarily the sex
thing. Could be there was suits pressure to throw some gulit in there
with the sex.
>
>5) Where's Oz during all this?
Dingoes Ate My Baby had an out of town gig.
> Not even a mention. One of the
>problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
>"regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
>have to play along with that.
Well juggled here IMO.
>
>Well, you're back on my good side, show. Keep it up.
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
>[Season Two so far:
>1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
>2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
>3) "School Hard" - Decent
>4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
>5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
>6) "Halloween" - Good
>7) "Lie To Me" - Good
>8) "The Dark Age" - Good
>9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
>10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
>11) "Ted" - Excellent
>12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
>13) "Surprise" - Decent
>14) "Innocence" - Excellent
>15) "Phases" - Decent
>16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
>17) "Passion" - Good]
BZZZZZT! Sorry, no (IMO of course. YMMV). Excellent plus, and not the
best of the season.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>It really does have to make you wonder the reasoning behind Spike's
>actions here.
>>
He's envious, jealous and pissed off and would gladly see Angelus fit
into an ashtray.
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
(or "I wanted to get right...")
Writer: Ty King
Director: Michael Gershman
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
Weeeee!
This is the one that I've been waiting for. Like you, watching the
show originally, this was the episode that locked for me. Up until
this point, my viewing was on again, off again, ok, I'll watch it this
week. Passion made me actually hold my breath and, at one point,
mentally cry out No!
Innocense, Surprise were interesting but with all the talk of a Vampire
cursed with a soul, was there any real Surprise when he actually lost
it?
> After a painful show like 3B, I usually go through a period of doubt
> and feeling confrontational towards the show. Convince me, stupid
> vampire show, that you're still worth watching. And it doesn't
> help that so far the show hasn't done that right away - IRYJ was
> followed by the initially-dull TPS, SAR by the uneven "School
> Hard," and BE by the rather bland "Surprise." So how about
> throwing me a bone this time? Well...
Althought I loved BBB for the laughs- still love it, at the original
airing of Passions, my belief was that this "little show may survive
one more season, tops". I will have to agree with you on the bone
toss.
>From AOQ review of Innocense
> BTVS has a lot of action in it overall, but since we viewers are so
> desensitized to the killin' stuff, it doesn't always achieve the
> visceral thrills it should.
I believe I asked what could be worse than killing a human being. What
I wanted to say, but couldn't, was that I'm sure the writers were
thinking the same exact thing and possibly asked themselves the same
question. There is something worse than killing a human being. Much,
much worse. Using that death to laugh in another person's face.
>> The four teenage
>> leads enjoy a moment of calm while Angel watches from the shadows.
Interesting phrasing because that opening scene always felt very
unnerving. I thought it was brilliantly done, the smiles and the
laughter vs. the almost monotone voiceover and and loving snear of
Angel. I have only come to appreciate it more with each viewing. This
ep is an easy #1 in my S2 favs. Then again, I've always been afraid of
the dark.
I also have to say, that since your viewing is on DVD, you missed the
hell of ending with Angel pulling her hair back and watching THEN the
opening credits and THEN the damn commercials. The next scene, with
her awakening to find the gift was perfect and worth the wait, Here We
Go!!!!!!!!
> Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
> fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
> way."
It will be very interesting to see what Mrs. Q thinks of Willow in the
future. Please, Please, Please keep her in the loop. Her opinion will
be very helpful. No more for now...........................
> Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
> trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
> want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
> all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
> make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
> really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
> make what's yet to come more depressing.
And the music................more in a moment.
> but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
> but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
> cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
> vulnerable.
What's more interesting is the less obvious and least unaddressed
point: How is it that a few mind games and harsh words get a man
cursed? There was much discussion, prior to this ep, about the cursed
Angel, but the info from S1 long forgotten. Maybe time for a refresher
course?
> Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age stalker.
And a great Fisherman, too! Was I the only one who noticed, on first
viewing, that she was feeding the tank? I found it a little
distracting up and until......Oh!
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
> unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
> obviously setting herself up to get in trouble.
Keep in mind that Angelus did not take exception. Dru's vision, Dru's
visit. Without her, he would have never known.
And no word about Sunshine. Have you no compassion?
You're a savvy
> internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
> seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
> random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
> doing so. Not nuclear physics.
Interesting take. I'll try and keep it in mind. But I do have a
question for someone who may know:
Vf gung gur Zntvp Obk? V xrrc ybbxvat ohg vg frrzf fb qvssrerag sebz
gur bar va Ybire'f Jnyx naq orlbaq. Fbzrguvat nobhg gur ynlbhg. Znlor
vg'f whfg zr.
Also, was I the only one who responded
> to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
> (don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
> carry a cross?
I belive my actual reaction was "Oh, she's screwed!" dumb shock.
Wow, no mention of the fact that Jenny was the one who gave the others
a means to protect themselves, yet nothing could protect her. And also
interesting are the circumstances that led to Buffy being nowhere in
sight at Jenny's demise.
Fav line: "Sorry Angel. Changed the locks." SLAM!
No mention of the brilliant execution. The way that each scene seemed
to flow timewise. One exception but it can slide.
> Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
> photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
> irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
> before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
> quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
> moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
> "shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
> she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
> both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
> little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
and really, really scary too. Especially with the lights off and the
volume turned way up.
> the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
> quite possible that Jenny could die here
While you saw this as a "she's done", I was still operating under the
"most tv is like the original Star Trek". Look at the uniform, she
can't die. I brought up TNG before, the ep there that caught my
attention....The demise of Tasha Yar, which got a "but, but, but, the
uniform" Nice when a show says, "we can do what ever we want, it's our
series".
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
> done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
> dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
> the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
> weight to pull off the high melodrama.
>
> With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
> unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
> stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
> actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
> that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Wow! That's it? That's all?
Giles first peek at the long stem rose on the door.
Romantic auria playing in the background.
"Jenny, it's me."
Iced Champaigne and a one word note "Upstairs"
the long line of candles and roses leading up the the bedroom
and Jenny lying on the bed
dead
Now back to Spike
You didn't cry? There wasn't a lump in your throat?
The next scene with Angel smiling at the pain on Buffy and Willow's
face after you could almost hear him laughing as he took one final
glance at Gile's gift.
You didn't ...... you didn't.......Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
I'm better now.
With all the previous talk of the curse, good, bad, well thought out or
not. Vengence and vengence alone. When Gypsies have to deal with a
man who not only kills but.............killin 'em just ain't enough.
As you can clearly see on Gile's face when he's gathering for the
attack or with the first swing of the bat. What's worse than killing,
using that death to laugh in someone else's heart. What's worse than
simply killing the killer, making him feel your pain. Vengence.
> Drusilla seems a little more
> manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
> annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
> along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
> personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
> have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
> have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
> skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
> "Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
> small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
> the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
> Slayer? Intriguing...
more later......................
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
> since that's not common behavior for most people. Going through with
> the funeral footage helps it sink in that Calendar is really gone (just
> like a real funeral does). The final shot of the disk falling behind
> the shelf in a nice way to close this one, regardless of whether they
> come back to it or if it's lost forever.
Now for the music which I know has been brought up before. I wanted to
wait because it's kind of hard to talk about CB without spoilers and I
will try now. The final song you have heard before, no doubt, but what
you might find interesting is how many times you've heard it. How many
different instruments have been used. How many meters and phrasing
have been used. The music is beautifully composed and really captures
the moment as you will learn later, S4 if you can make it that long.
Beck knows when to start the music, it's never arbitrary, and he knows
just how much of the music to play and when and using which instruments
to get the point across. And, I may be wrong, but the end of Passion
as the first time Remembering Jenny was heard in it's entirety. But
you've heard it many, many times before. Always a little different,
but always the same.
> "the ecstasy of grief" into his narration.
No tears???? Not even a furrowed brow?????
> 2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
> always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
No, you will get absolutely no arguement from me.
> 4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
> screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
> that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
> times the logic police point it out.
Joyce unaware, Buffy very aware that it lifted the curse. Hindsight
20/20 always. Even at 17.
> 5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
> problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
> "regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
> have to play along with that.
My rating would be a simple: YES! Up until this ep, I had been waiting
for the show to do something to impress me, surprise me, show me that
you are different from regular tv. Passion did. I stopped missing
episodes and started catching up on missed one's.
Glad you enjoyed. Just one more question.
When Giles dropped the champaigne bottle, wasn't there just a
little............??
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>Now for the music which I know has been brought up before. I wanted to
>wait because it's kind of hard to talk about CB without spoilers and I
>will try now. The final song you have heard before, no doubt, but what
>you might find interesting is how many times you've heard it. How many
>different instruments have been used. How many meters and phrasing
>have been used. The music is beautifully composed and really captures
>the moment as you will learn later, S4 if you can make it that long.
>Beck knows when to start the music, it's never arbitrary, and he knows
>just how much of the music to play and when and using which instruments
>to get the point across. And, I may be wrong, but the end of Passion
>as the first time Remembering Jenny was heard in it's entirety. But
>you've heard it many, many times before. Always a little different,
>but always the same.
>
Thank you h.d. I forgot to mention the music myself. Wonderful scoring
by Beck. Really seamless intergration.
While we're on "the Arts," no one ever seems to comment on what a
decent artist evil, evil Angelus is. A monster with a delicate line.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Worked for me. I think there's another version, possibly a wild feed
> where someone else does the voiceover, maybe Giles? Or I'm confusing
> it with something else.
You're confusing it with Becoming, which also has voice overs, for which
there are a couple of different versions.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
KenM47
>In article <787qv115qojf3iemv...@4ax.com>,
> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Worked for me. I think there's another version, possibly a wild feed
>> where someone else does the voiceover, maybe Giles? Or I'm confusing
>> it with something else.
>
>You're confusing it with Becoming, which also has voice overs, for which
>there are a couple of different versions.
Thanks Don
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Vf gung gur Zntvp Obk? V xrrc ybbxvat ohg vg frrzf fb qvssrerag sebz
> gur bar va Ybire'f Jnyx naq orlbaq. Fbzrguvat nobhg gur ynlbhg. Znlor
> vg'f whfg zr.
Vg jnf n qvssrerag ybpngvba sebz jung orpnzr Gur Zntvp Obk (Nsgre orvat
Hapyr Obo'f Zntvp Pnovarg sbe n juvyr.)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
hopelessly devoted
Thank you. Makes sense. Now I can stop looking at it.
hopelessly devoted
Death is your art. You make it with your hands. I like it.
kenm47
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
> that was rhetorical.
Then next time use the darn rhetorical emoticon!
:-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mel
hopelessly devoted wrote:
<rest of post snipped>
>
> Glad you enjoyed. Just one more question.
>
> When Giles dropped the champaigne bottle, wasn't there just a
> little............??
>
This is the first episode chronologically that always gets me teary.
From the closing moments of "the talk" between Buffy and Joyce right
through to the end.
Mel
Carlos Moreno
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Delivers the goods (some of which are bads).
>
> AOQ rating: Good
*sigh* still suffering from that indigestion right before BBB? ;-)
I know, I know -- I said it before and I insist on it now: if we
*always* agreed about everything, things would be extremely boring...
But, MAN! Talk about an aftershock of BBB blurring your judgement...
How can you not loudly and emphatically rate this episode as by far
the most absolutely extraordinary thing the show has given us so
far?!! It's like, sooooooooooo far above anything else that we've
seen (yes, including "Innocence") so far...
Ok, BBB (though I'm still deeply shocked at the mere mention that
the episode is bad -- let alone candidate for worst episode) fits
the pattern of your profound dislike for the X/C element... But
Passion, after reading your comment about Angelus in "Innocence",
your detailed observations about the absolute mastery in the
scenes (the bedroom scene/dialog, for instance), and your liking
of Boreanaz portraying Angelus, the most genuinely scary true
monster that we've seen so far -- clever, focused, sadistic and
determined to cause as much pain as possible in the most artful
way possible...
How can you not think that Passion is the most extraordinary
thing the show has given us so far?!! I really can not understand
this one (I mean, I could understand it if you had been a person
who dislikes the darker aspects of the show -- but so far you've
shown precisely the opposite pattern... Not too much in sync
with the light, humor-based facet, and more in sync with the
dark episodes).
Jenny's death, and the scene where Giles finds out is, like,
OH MY GOD, I don't think I'll ever be able to find words (in
any language!) to describe just how brilliant that is!! And
Angelus' joy when looking at Buffy receiving the news... I
don't think the word "priceless" even begins to cover it.
Anyway, we'll let you off with a warning, but only this one
time... ;-) And only because of the aftershock of BBB (which
now that I think about it, we should not accept that as an
excuse -- that one was already inexcusable!! So, on second
thought, you're going to prison! Guilty as charged!!! :-))
Carlos
--
Carlos Moreno
> I just finished re-watching this one. Probably the 5th time or 6th
> I've seen it. It's an amazing hour. This episode should have gotten an
> Emmy, or at least a Hugo. Incredibly creepy. Major sad. Perfect? Maybe
> not, but great. And the absolutely incredible thing is it is not the
> best episode of the season.
I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, Becoming is
incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
this one, Becoming seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
yes, the flashbacks are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
new dimension... But I don't know, Passion is so unique, so
unbelievably surprising, so good at an unexpected level -- as
you say, an episode that should have gotten a multitude of awards
(yes, Becoming too, I know!! :-))
[no, I'm not putting spoiler space or warnings, since it was two
days ago that Mrs. AOQ indicated they were going to watch the
finale -- so, I'm convinced that at this point, AOQ must have
even worked on his review for Becoming]
>>" She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
>>way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
>>that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
>>reproach or something?]
>
> I don't know either. But I get what you're saying.
I'm probably going to go again against popular opinion, but I
think I'm gonna side with Mrs. AOQ on this one -- Willow some
times can be truly and unbelievably lame and annoying! This
was probably one of those times...
Don't get me wrong: I *love* Willow! Really love her and find
her an awesome character!! But really, some times she can be
quite annoying.
Carlos
--
Scythe Matters
> I'd nitpick over how quickly Willow got over the "won't even talk
> to [Xander]" stage mentioned in 3B
Actually, if you pay attention to how long it takes them to actually
exchange words, you'll see it's not entirely over. At their first
interaction, she blows him off after one line and without addressing
him. The very first time she directly addresses him -- very late in the
episode -- it's to scold him:
----
Cordelia: So Giles is gonna try to kill Angel then?
Xander: Well, it's about time somebody did.
Willow: Xander!
And she doesn't talk to him for the rest of the episode.
----
So: she's over it? Uh, no.
> I don't
> really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this episode.
> Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic delivery
> on "what if they don't respect my authority?"
Did you not see the end of the episode? It's there to set up the
justification for Willow actually taking over the class, which would
otherwise be completely out of the blue.
> Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
> reproach or something?]
We'll all have a nice long chat about gendered reactions to Buffyverse
characters while you're reviewing seasons 5 and 6. It's something to,
uh, "look forward to." :-/
> The net effect is to
> make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
> really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
> make what's yet to come more depressing.
Yes. Joss: "always go for the pain." The death is painful enough on its
own. Its more painful because of the guilt that it lays on Buffy. And
its infinitely more painful because, after "The Dark Age" and then
"Innocence," we're finally about to repair the one source of happiness
in either Giles' or Jenny's lives.
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
> unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
> obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
> internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
> seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
> random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
> doing so.
Uh, that's not how Angelus found out, that's just how he learned the
precise details of something he already knew. He never would have been
in the classroom without Drusilla's vision (her visit to the magic shop
was post-vision, acquiring the aforementioned details). This is, in
part, why she is such a dangerous character compared to the other
baddies...because she's intermittently clairvoyant and thus can
anticipate some of our heroes' actions.
Jenny might have violated a basic rule of stock horror plots, but
there's no consequences without Drusilla's "gift." And in any case, this
isn't really about Angelus stopping the re-cursing, it's about Angelus
killing someone that Buffy could have saved by staking him when she had
the chance. Jenny's death, like so many other devices in these shows, is
mighty painful but in the end really is only a means to a different end.
It's not about Jenny. It's not, really, even about Jenny and Giles. It's
about Buffy and Angel.
> Also, was I the only one who responded
> to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
It appears that the door was locked somehow, given her inability to open
it despite tugging at the doorknob. Note that she couldn't get out until
he threw her through a door.
> (don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
> carry a cross?
Crosses aren't a prophylactic in the Buffyverse. Vampires don't like
them, but they can tolerate them if their need is strong enough, and
crosses can be batted away by an enraged vampire if the plot requires
them to do so. A cross wouldn't have saved Jenny. A Slayer might have,
though.
> Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
> photographed.
Yes, yes and yes again.
> the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
> quite possible that Jenny could die here
As Joss says on this very DVD: it's important that the audience realize
that characters can die. (He goes on to say that it's important for the
actors to realize this. ;-) )
> The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
> "shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
> she'd survive after all.
Absolutely. Because at this point in any other episode, she either gets
away or Buffy arrives to save the day. But this is not any other episode.
> Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
> done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
> dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
> the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
> weight to pull off the high melodrama.
I think the Willow reaction especially, but also the Buffy/Willow/Joyce
interaction here is brilliantly acted and filmed.
> Now that's just _mean_.
"Always go for the pain." More terrific acting, this time from Head.
Also important: Giles was the one who lectured Buffy on not letting
Angelus provoke her. Thereby guaranteeing that he'd be the victim of
Angelus' provocation.
A tangential aside: notice that after a few moments of significant
maturation on Xander's part, he's back on the anti-Angel train, and this
time he's the conductor and the engineer (and also with the coal
shoveling). Except that, for once, he's probably right...and Buffy knows it.
> I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
This is too difficult to answer in depth right now, though I suspect
others (in the responses I haven't yet read) will have tried. But no, I
don't think that Angelus and Spike are comparable at this point. The
intensity of the psychological warfare being conducted by Angelus is far
beyond anything Spike could possibly conceive. Spike up to this point,
at his best/worst, is a snarky and somewhat apathetic but effective
(until Buffy, that is) killer. That's already changing since the church
collapse, of course, but I'm describing Spike pre-collapse. Angelus is
all about the dramatic, emotional, slow-burning evil. He'll kill just to
kill if it's all he has, but that's not his raison d'être, and in fact
he often seems to get much more pleasure from the *non*-kill, if it
causes more pain than a clean kill.
> Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
> continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
> somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
> manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
> annoyed...
Consistent with the very first interactions between the three of them.
This time, you saw it from the beginning...which is partially a
testament to the clarity of Marsters' acting, and partially to your credit.
> There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
> along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
> personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
> thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous.
This is an insightful response.
> Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
> the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
> Slayer? Intriguing...
Another insightful response.
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is impressive
> since that's not common behavior for most people.
Agreed.
> 1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
> voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
> because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show.
I tend to think they add a great deal, because they demonstrate that
Angelus is playing our characters are being played like cheap
instruments. Not just our heroes, but our villians as well. As the
omniscient narrator, he gets to fully inhabit this role.
> 2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
> always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
I'm clipping and pasting this comment next to the other dozen. ;-)
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
Seriously, now: what does Buffy say to her?
"Hey, Mom. Listen...I'm The Chosen One, I'm a vampire slayer, I kill
demons in my spare time, I've saved the entire world several times, I
sneak out of the house every night even when I'm grounded, I (and
Willow, and Xander, and Giles) lie to you on a daily basis, and I'm
likely to die any day now. By the way, Oz is a werewolf. You were
possessed by a giant slug and your last boyfriend was an evil robot. Oh,
yeah, and incidentally I just gave it up to a 200+ year old guy who just
snapped my computer teacher's neck and is killing my classmates. Uh...if
you see him anywhere, run."
This is the Joyce who has been in complete denial, the Joyce who
wouldn't listen to a moment of explanation from Buffy in "Bad Eggs," the
Joyce...well, now, let's repeat the question: what would Buffy say to her?
Or, as the episode put it more cleverly:
----
Giles: (looks up the stairs) Would you, um... Perhaps I should
intervene on, on Buffy's behalf w-w-with her mother. Um, maybe... say
something?
Willow: Sure! Like, what would you say?
Giles: (looks up the stairs again) W... Uh...
She reaches for the doorknob and opens it.
Giles: You will tell Buffy I dropped by? (goes out)
Willow: You bet. (closes the door)
----
> 4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
> screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
> that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
> times the logic police point it out.
----
Angelus: It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we
obey. What other choice do we have?
----
> 5) Where's Oz during all this?
Presumably not contracted for the episode. ;-)
> AOQ rating: Good
Should be "excellent." When I first saw this, I would have agreed with
"good" -- though on the high side of "good" -- but subsequent viewings
have convinced me that this is a brilliant episode. Moreover, reading
your review and comparing it to the episodes you've rated "excellent," I
find your rating inexplicable. But, chacun à son goût.
Mike Zeares
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
Ack, now I'm behind you. DVD time tonight.
Anyway, ever since it first aired I've had mixed reactions to
"Passions." Roughly the first half of the episode just seems "off,"
somehow. My major objections are the voice-overs, which I think are
completely superfluous, and Xander's dialogue/Nick's acting prior to
the scene in Giles' apartment (where both suddenly worked perfectly).
However, the last half of the ep is just amazing.
Am I the only one who thinks Buffy looked like absolute crap at this
point in the season? The stress of what happened to Angel was really
showing on her (I believe this was deliberate, since the makeup/hair
people could make her look any way they chose). I think it's
particularly noticable when she and Giles are at Jenny's grave. The
girl was getting worn down.
-- Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters
> I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
> think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, ***** is
> incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
> this one, ***** seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
> yes, the ***** are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
> new dimension...
Carlos, spoilers! Plus, "expectation spoilers," which AoQ has already
suggested he'd rather not see. Let's not talk about how stupendously
awesome the season 3 finale "Cordelia's Bad Perm" is, let's let him find
out for himself, OK?
I agree that it's possible they've already watched the episodes in
question, though also remember that we have at least one other newbie
following along. Besides, what's fun about these discussions is limiting
them to what we know up to the point we've reached. We don't need AoQ to
talk about the series as a whole.
hopelessly devoted
> BTW, you realize we had never seen nor heard that Giles had ever
> invited Angel into his house. BUT when at Buffy's to pick up the spell
> book Giles says to Willow he's going to do his place that night (neat
> little fill in that there must have been an invite sometime even if
> we never saw it).
Great Catch!!!!! I never noticed.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 17: "Passion"
>(or "I wanted to get right...")
>Writer: Ty King
>Director: Michael Gershman
>
>[An interesting story of how
>people have different reactions... during the part where Willow is
>agonizing over all the things that could go wrong if she were running
>class, Mrs. Quality was sighing loudly and finally said "oh, shut the
>fuck up." She later explained "seriously, no one talks that
>way." Whereas I couldn't imagine much that could make me react
>that way to Willow. Is it just we boy geeks who find her above
>reproach or something?]
I think you've got it :)
Actually, I never found Willow to be above reproach, and I loved her all
the more, not in spite of her faults (and she certainly has them) but
because of them. They make her much more interesting than if she really
was little miss perfect.
>Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
>trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
>want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
>all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is to
>make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite everything, they
>really do want to be together - also a standard technique to try to
>make what's yet to come more depressing.
My favorite Jenny scene in the ep is the Jenny/Buffy. ("... and I just
want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according to
several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they wrote
needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect on
Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants her
to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her life.
>Our heroes hope that by ignoring Angel, he'll go away. Seems like a
>silly strategy, but at least it brings everyone to realize an obvious
>but previously (mostly) unaddressed point: all the various homes (and
>cars) that Angel has been invited into over the last few months are
>vulnerable. So let's crucifix them up and such. Nothing too
>exciting here other than Joyce's scene, but it moves along with some
>snappy dialogue.
On the newsgroup, following Innocence, the entry restriction was very much
in people's mind, and we were actively cataloging the places we knew he
had been invited into (we missed Cordy's car I think). Everybody and her
sister was pointing out 'Hey, Willow invited him in!' even before Phases
had aired.
>
>Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
>Curse.
Actually, she was trying to do the RSC. The curse was already reversed
when Buffy boinked the undead. Keep in mind that the curse is having a
soul. Running around unsouled and terrorizing people is the natural
state.
>Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the idea. It's
>unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me, that she's so
>obviously setting herself up to get in trouble. You're a savvy
>internet-using member of the late twentieth century; have you never
>seen a horror movie? You don't explain your dangerous plans to
>random characters who could easily betray you or be intimidated into
>doing so. Not nuclear physics. Also, was I the only one who responded
>to Angel's appearance by mentally yelling "run, you moron!"
>(don't know if it would have helped, but...)? And why doesn't she
>carry a cross?
As shown when she did run, it wouldn't have.
Also, I don't think Jenny told the shop owner all that much. What screwed
her was that Dru, like Buffy, has visions. she didn't need to torture
stuff from the shop-owner, she could mostly see it in her head, and warned
Angel.
Also, did you pick up by this point that Buffy and Dru have difficulty
'seeing' each other, their visions tend to mask them from each other (Dru
complains about it).
>Once we get to the actual chase, it's very well done, beautifully
>photographed. We're doing a standard horror-movie scene without much
>irony, and one reason it works so well is that, as discussed many times
>before, the way the series treats its supporting cast means that it's
>quite possible that Jenny could die here, so there's suspense from
>moment one. The scene goes on for some time, rather than being a quick
>"shocking kill," thus making it seem more likely (for me) that
>she'd survive after all. Even the thing with the cart, which had
>both the fiancée and I gong "oh, come on..." serves to disarm us a
>little so the end of the sequence can deliver its gut-punch.
A couple of things, as I've mentioned, I pretty strongly expected Jenny to
be killed or vamped in WSWB, and I though it likely that she was going to
be killed in The Dark Age, when she wasn't killed in Innocence, I started
thinking that the red shirt had passed her by and started to relax. In
retrospect, I think that was exactly what they were going for in the
earlier episodes.
Also, Angel breaking her neck rather than biting, was almost certainly
meant to show that she was not just merely dead, but really quite
sincerely dead, no coming back as a vampire.
>Jumping ahead a little, the reaction to her death from our leads is
>done in a conventional film manner (somber music, we don't hear the
>dialogue, Buffy drops the phone in shock, etc.), and it works because
>the rest of the episode (and the series) has established the necessary
>weight to pull off the high melodrama.
What sells the scene is the audience seeing it from Angel's viewpoint.
>With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
>unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
>stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
>actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
>that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
>playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
>Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
>kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
Well, Angel was Spike's yoda, so it would make sense there would be
similarities. However, by this point we already know that Spike has a
rather severe case of Attention Deficit Disorder. He doesn't even have
the patience to follow his own plans, how likely is it that he'll follow
someone else'sp plan. In his first appearance, he set up a plan to attack
on St. Vigius Day, then attacked a day early because he couldn't wait.
>Speaking of whom, how about those vampire scenes? I'm interested in
>continuing to see one or two per episode, as long as they eventually go
>somewhere. For now, it's small steps: Drusilla seems a little more
>manipulative, Angelus a little more condescending, Spike a little more
>annoyed... There's also a legitimate strategic disagreement running
>along with their personal issues: one vampire is a big proponent of his
>personal style of get-into-the-enemy's-head warfare, while the other
>thinks it'll only make the Slayer more dangerous. Until now I'd
>have gone with Dead Boy on this one, but the ending suggests he may
>have pushed the wrong button this time. Buffy's acting like a
>skilled Slayer in the ending sequences in a way she hasn't been since
>"Innocence," but then again, maybe she can only keep that up in
>small doses. We'll see. Spike's final order to Dru to stay out of
>the personal conflict is weird; what happened to ganging up on the
>Slayer? Intriguing...
Did you try coming up with a rhyme for 'lungs'?
>1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
>voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
>because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But one
>bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out about
>Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief" into
>his narration.
The voice over was very highly debated, and was very divisive, generally
people either loved it or hated it. I was on the 'lame' side of the
argument.
>3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
>does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
>anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
By this point of the season, my rant on it had pretty much flattened into
a screaming crescendo.
>4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification of
>screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
>that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
>times the logic police point it out.
Take a globe and pick out the point on it furthest from 'not blaming
herself' and that's where you'll find Buffy. We've already seen (in
Nightmares and Ted) that Buffy absolutely excels at blaming herself,
rightly or not. At this point we're getting the full meal deal of what we
only got a glimpse of in Ted. Buffy blames herself for everything.
>5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
>problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
>"regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
>have to play along with that.
Hey, he's the lead guitar in a rock band that's good enough to be the
house band at the main nightclub in the area, and to play out of town
gigs.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Daniel Damouth
news:1140649192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
> I
> don't really see why the fluff with the computer class is in this
> episode. Seems pointless, and that's even with Hannigan's classic
> delivery on "what if they don't respect my authority?" My hunch
> is that someone thought it was particularly important to set up
> the theme of saving files on disk, but I'd disagree.
A criticism reminiscent of your objection to showing the talent show
in "The Puppet Show".
Here, you object to the computer class? I counted. There's exactly
10 seconds of class stuff, establishing that it is a computer class,
which explains all the computers and that they have portable media,
and gives a good setup for Willow and Jenny to interact naturally, so
that Jenny could ask her to sub. Pointless? It's entirely pointy.
> Calendar is involved in a few nice scenes early, as she's still
> trying to get back on Giles' good side. I like his lines "Do you
> want to?" and "I'm not the one you need to make it up to," and
> all the implicit stuff in their conversation. The net effect is
> to make it crystal-clear to both characters that despite
> everything, they really do want to be together - also a standard
> technique to try to make what's yet to come more depressing.
That's a very technical observation, but you don't really follow up
by telling us what your reaction was to the payoff. Were you
depressed or moved in any way? That's the heart of many fans'
attachment to this episode and this show. In fact, if there is a
single point to the episode, it's the emotional hit that they want to
deliver to you. Sometimes your reviews read like a school assignment
on a subject you're ambivalent about.
> Angel does a commendable impression of a disturbed college-age
> stalker.
>
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really
> Stupid Curse. Unsurprisingly, Angelus takes exception to the
> idea. It's unfortunate, and it hurts the episode a little for me,
> that she's so obviously setting herself up to get in trouble.
> You're a savvy internet-using member of the late twentieth
> century; have you never seen a horror movie? You don't explain
> your dangerous plans to random characters who could easily betray
> you or be intimidated into doing so. Not nuclear physics.
This is perhaps a fair criticism of the writing, but not of Jenny.
Horror movies are good guides for how to conduct yourself in real
life? And she doesn't think about the other people in the episode as
"characters". And she doesn't know that Dru has some weird psychic
ability.
> Also,
> was I the only one who responded to Angel's appearance by mentally
> yelling "run, you moron!" (don't know if it would have helped,
> but...)? And why doesn't she carry a cross?
Yes, that was my reaction when I first saw it. But there's something
else going on that I don't fully understand. The direction Jenny
wants to run in is towards the back of the classroom. There might be
a door there (by which Angel might have entered). So she has to sort
of go past Angel to get out. And I think she was edging in that
direction, waiting for the chance to slip past. When she finally
went for it, she didn't make it past him. Only as a last resort did
she go back into the school, which as we all know has most of its
doors locked after hours.
[...]
> The part at the end where Buffy hits Giles and then cries on his
> shoulder a second later seems real and natural, which is
> impressive since that's not common behavior for most people.
So, the acting is good. But did the scene induce any other reaction
in you? Were you, in fact, ordered (court ordered) to review Buffy?
> Some short takes:
>
> 1) I haven't yet mentioned the device of having Angel's running
> voiceover'd musings about the nature of passion and such. That's
> because they mostly neither add to nor detract from the show. But
> one bit that worked for me is over Buffy and Willow finding out
> about Calendar, when he slips a mention of "the ecstasy of grief"
> into his narration.
I never liked most of the narration either, but it does answer the
question "why doesn't Angel just kill her", which was in my mind when
I first saw it.
> 2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute.
> There'll always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
>
> 3) Following up on William's comment (in response to "Bad Eggs"),
> does anyone want to argue any conceivable reason that it benefits
> anyone to keep Joyce in the dark at this point?
How about this: Buffy needs Joyce. Things get a lot harder if she
decides to move away (which is what she did last time Buffy got in
trouble). Does Buffy then run away from Joyce and return to
Sunnydale?
> 4) Interesting that Buffy would agree with Joyce's classification
> of screwing Angel as a "mistake." Guess she hasn't quite accepted
> that she really didn't do anything wrong there, no matter how many
> times the logic police point it out.
The guilt just keeps piling up in Buffy. I will note that there were
long discussions in this newsgroup about whether Buffy really did
anything wrong by sleeping with Angel. Yes, she couldn't have known
about the loophole in the curse. OTOH, Angel turning into Angelus
was a metaphor for a guy changing nature after scoring. Should she
have taken the risk of sleeping with *anyone* at that age? As Giles
said, she "acted rashly".
> 5) Where's Oz during all this? Not even a mention. One of the
> problems common to long-running shows - you've got your
> "regulars" and your "guest stars," and the episodes themselves
> have to play along with that.
I see it the other way. The episodes determine who's a guest star
and who's a regular. If Oz had been written into "Passion" then Seth
would have showed up for work (barring a conflict). But he wasn't.
I was surprised you didn't mention Giles' "classic battle strategy"
explanation for Angel's behavior. Yeah, right, he's just trying to
"throw you off your game", to "goad you into some mishap". It was so
stupid I couldn't believe Giles said it.
On another note, I appreciated the fighting and fight choreography in
this one. The battles were gritty, dirty, punches, kicks, grabbing
and shoving, Buffy shoving a pole through the stairs to trip Angel up
and not really succeeding. Contrasted with many shows (Xena, et
al.), the fighting seems more real here. A little more messy. Makes
me feel that the characters are really invested.
There. I think I've covered the Three Levels of Joss (spectacle,
message, and emotion).
-Dan Damouth
kenm47
ROT13
Ohg frnfba terngarff, VZB, yvrf jvgu Fnenu Z'f "Shyy bs Tenpr." V
pnaabg guvax bs nabgure fubj gung yrsg zr fgnevat ng gur fperra arneyl
nhqvoyl fboovat, srryvat nf qenvarq nf V gura sryg. Nznmvatyl, vg fgvyy
trgf gb zr, n yvggyr yrff, ohg vg trgf gb zr.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
I've got to say thanks again. Really a pleasure to read your replies,
particularly where AOQ seems to some (you, me, Carlos, etc.) to be off.
Have we just all got Stockholm syndrome? Under Buffy's spell way too
long? Could AOQ be more dead on, and we're deluding ourselves?
Nah!
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
point in the season? The stress of what happened to Angel was really
showing on her (I believe this was deliberate, since the makeup/hair
people could make her look any way they chose). I think it's
particularly noticable when she and Giles are at Jenny's grave. The
girl was getting worn down."
Well she looked good in that raincoat and out of it in BB&B. But she
did look sick, kinda fluish, when Willow came over for that overnight
and later at Jenny's grave. Like she was coming down with something?
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according
to
several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they
wrote
needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect
on
Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants
her
to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her
life. "
There is that. Funny though, as much as I thought Buffy was being
unduly harsh and nasty, the follow up reads to me as Buffy saying to
Jenny you're important to Giles so you are important to me, and some
day I will get over it, so you can now come back into our lives.
Yes, she could have been more explicit, but I think what Buffy has to
live with is that because she chose to not dust Angelus when she had
the chance Jenny dies.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
'seeing' each other, their visions tend to mask them from each other
(Dru
complains about it)."
I think I knew/realized that, but never expressly put it together.
Thanks to you WGF also for your extensive comments.
For a show long off the air, this newsgroup is still alive and fun.
Thanks again AOQ for the catalyst.
Ken (Brooklyn) <in a thankful mood this a.m.>
kenm47
in you? Were you, in fact, ordered (court ordered) to review Buffy? "
LOL
Thanks to you too Dan. And anyone else I've failed to personally thank.
I am really enjoying this, having missed it the first time around.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
with a response (at least from me):
- Demands to know why I only wrote one paragraph about a certain thing
instead of three
- Demands over why I saw something as merely "effective" rather than
having it move me to the core of my being
- Ratings quibbles over any distinction other than not-Good ("Decent"
and below) vs. "Good" or higher. ("Decent" or higher vs. "Bad" or
lower may also be an acceptable topic under certain circumstances.)
They're subjective; I don't have to justify them logically.
Have a nice day.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Althought I loved BBB for the laughs- still love it, at the original
> airing of Passions, my belief was that this "little show may survive
> one more season, tops". I will have to agree with you on the bone
> toss.
One thing I'm learning here is that this series has the ability to keep
coming up with the goods regardless of what's gone before who who gets
killed off.
> It will be very interesting to see what Mrs. Q thinks of Willow in the
> future. Please, Please, Please keep her in the loop. Her opinion will
> be very helpful. No more for now...........................
We agree on so much that I usually try to point it out when we strongly
disagree on something. Anyway, will do.
> What's more interesting is the less obvious and least unaddressed
> point: How is it that a few mind games and harsh words get a man
> cursed? There was much discussion, prior to this ep, about the cursed
> Angel, but the info from S1 long forgotten. Maybe time for a refresher
> course?
I don't get the question. Didn't Angelus get cursed because he killed
someone whose family took it personally? That's all it takes to elicit
vengeance. Plus Angelus doesn't just kill people, he methodically
hurts them and those they love as much as possible... it's the kinda
thing that makes you want him to suffer or something. And you
basically say exactly that later in the response, so... I don't get the
question.
> You didn't cry? There wasn't a lump in your throat?
> The next scene with Angel smiling at the pain on Buffy and Willow's
> face after you could almost hear him laughing as he took one final
> glance at Gile's gift.
>
> You didn't ...... you didn't.......Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Nope. Heart of stone and all. Certainly effective stuff, it just
didn't happen to rip out the core of my being. But the fact that it
got such strong responses from so many people means that the show's
doing something right, yes?
Like I said, I was glad they showed the tombstone. Seeing "Jennifer
Calender" etched in stone so matter-of-factly there drove home the
point for me, made it final. And it gives the viewer a quieter moment
to really reflect on what (and who) has been lost
> Now for the music which I know has been brought up before. I wanted to
> wait because it's kind of hard to talk about CB without spoilers and I
> will try now. The final song you have heard before, no doubt, but what
> you might find interesting is how many times you've heard it. How many
> different instruments have been used. How many meters and phrasing
> have been used. The music is beautifully composed and really captures
> the moment as you will learn later, S4 if you can make it that long.
> Beck knows when to start the music, it's never arbitrary, and he knows
> just how much of the music to play and when and using which instruments
> to get the point across. And, I may be wrong, but the end of Passion
> as the first time Remembering Jenny was heard in it's entirety. But
> you've heard it many, many times before. Always a little different,
> but always the same.
Interesting. I've found that (with the sole exception of _Cowboy
Bebop_), I almost never notice music when watching TV (or most movies).
It just doesn't register unless it's getting in the way. That'll be
worth paying attention to on re-watchings.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> My favorite Jenny scene in the ep is the Jenny/Buffy. ("... and I just
> want to say, Good. Keep it up.") One of the show mantras, according to
> several of the writers is 'where's the Buffy' (it was what Whedon would
> ask them as he was reading script drafts). Basically whatever they wrote
> needed to either illuminate something about Buffy or have some affect on
> Buffy. This scene, more than most the others in the episode, is a
> 'where's the Buffy'. In her last conversation with Jenny before her
> death, she tells her that she hasn't and won't forgive her, and wants her
> to suffer. That's what Buffy gets to live with for the rest of her life.
Agreed, although like Ken points out, she's also trying to remove
herself as a barrier keeping Giles and Calendar from working things out
between them on their own. Just a little too late...
Re: Angel's invitations, you'll notice how in the Angel/Willow scene
from "Lie To Me" they lingered on the invitation a little, making sure
the vieer would remember it? That's an example of how a scene can work
both in its original context (inviting a vampire in is always a big
deal, and Willow's simple thrill/apprehension about having such a big
guy alone with her) and also as setup.
> >Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> >Curse.
>
> Actually, she was trying to do the RSC. The curse was already reversed
> when Buffy boinked the undead. Keep in mind that the curse is having a
> soul. Running around unsouled and terrorizing people is the natural
> state.
Yeah, my typo.
> Also, did you pick up by this point that Buffy and Dru have difficulty
> 'seeing' each other, their visions tend to mask them from each other (Dru
> complains about it).
No. Oh, speaking of visions, I guess since Dru helped Angelus prevent
the re-souling, Buffy's dream about her killing Angel can be said to
have come to pass. (if anyone thinks that's already been fulfilled in
any other metaphorical context, let me know, sinc I'm not seeing it).
> Well, Angel was Spike's yoda, so it would make sense there would be
> similarities. However, by this point we already know that Spike has a
> rather severe case of Attention Deficit Disorder. He doesn't even have
> the patience to follow his own plans, how likely is it that he'll follow
> someone else'sp plan. In his first appearance, he set up a plan to attack
> on St. Vigius Day, then attacked a day early because he couldn't wait.
Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you're right.
-AOQ
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Meanwhile, Calendar is going about trying to reverse the Really Stupid
> Curse.
The curse makes more sense if you remember what the people who cast it
were going for. They didn't care about justice or goodness or
protecting the world from Angelus or any of that. It was a purely
vengeance-driven expression of sadism. It's like a curse from a fairy
tale -- what will inflict the most pain on the victim? If you're
dealing with a handsome prince, you turn him into a monster, or a frog.
Well, they were dealing with a monster, so they inflicted a conscience
on him.
But they didn't do it to make him into a nice person, or to make him a
hero, or even to stop Angelus from eating people. Those were just happy
side effects. The purpose was to make Angelus suffer, which it of
course succeeded at in spades.
If, however, Angel actually became *content* with his state of affairs,
as he was beginning to become with Buffy, then the purpose of the curse
has been broken. He's not suffering anymore. The soul has become a
benefit to him, rather than a crushing agony. And they can't have that.
Plus, it's a curse. It operates on fairy tale rules. There's always
some weird clause that breaks the curse. Remember, losing his soul
wasn't the curse. *Having* a soul was the curse. And just like Beauty
and the Beast or the Frog Prince or whatever, the curse was broken by
true love. It's just that in this case, the curse is what was keeping
the handsome prince a handsome prince, and when the curse was broken,
he turned back into a beast.
--Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality
Daniel Damouth wrote:
> A criticism reminiscent of your objection to showing the talent show
> in "The Puppet Show".
>
> Here, you object to the computer class? I counted. There's exactly
> 10 seconds of class stuff, establishing that it is a computer class,
> which explains all the computers and that they have portable media,
> and gives a good setup for Willow and Jenny to interact naturally, so
> that Jenny could ask her to sub. Pointless? It's entirely pointy.
I meant the whole scene. And you'll notice I said "seems" pointless
without passing final judgment on future plans - I couldn't have known
at that point that Jvyybj grnpuvat jnf tbvat gb or na batbvat
fgbelyvar, abg whfg fbzrguvat sbe "Cnffvba" nybar. (See, I'm
learning.)
> That's a very technical observation, but you don't really follow up
> by telling us what your reaction was to the payoff. Were you
> depressed or moved in any way? That's the heart of many fans'
> attachment to this episode and this show. In fact, if there is a
> single point to the episode, it's the emotional hit that they want to
> deliver to you. Sometimes your reviews read like a school assignment
> on a subject you're ambivalent about.
Heh, point taken. I do tend towards a dry, observation-focused writing
style; I think that's just the way I'm handling this, scrutinizing
things as someone new to the Buffyverse. But yeah, my reviews will
look like that... especially if I find something effective enough to
hold my attention but not enough to stir a really deep emotional
reaction. The more invested I am, the more gushy the language gets. A
general rule is that if I talk about something at all, I find it
interesting (either good or bad, which is usually clear from context);
the subjects I'm ambivalent about won't get mentioned at all.
> So, the acting is good. But did the scene induce any other reaction
> in you? Were you, in fact, ordered (court ordered) to review Buffy?
Heh. As long as the show keeps producing quality episodes like
"Passion," it's a hobby, and I'm having fun.
> Yes, she couldn't have known
> about the loophole in the curse. OTOH, Angel turning into Angelus
> was a metaphor for a guy changing nature after scoring. Should she
> have taken the risk of sleeping with *anyone* at that age? As Giles
> said, she "acted rashly".
I wouldn't generally recommend that seventeen-year-olds sleep with
people who've had bicentennials, but I thought at the time that they'd
established enough trust that it was an entirely understandable choice,
and one which she can't consider a mistake on her part (rationally,
that is... people in pain aren't always so rational). Of course, given
all the things she still didn't know about Angel, maybe that feeling
was deceptive.
-AOQ
Carlos Moreno
> Carlos Moreno wrote:
>
>> I may probably go against popular opinion on this one, but I do
>> think it is the best episode of the season -- yes, ***** is
>> incredibly good at so many levels; but somehow, compared to
>> this one, ***** seems good in the conventional way; I mean,
>> yes, the ***** are introduced, giving the show such a lucid
>> new dimension...
>
>
> Carlos, spoilers! Plus, "expectation spoilers," which AoQ has already
> suggested he'd rather not see.
Oh yes -- you will have a hard time finding someone pickier than
me when it comes to spoilers; and yes, I perfectly understand
the notion of "expectation spoilers", and the notion that merely
knowing that there is a big deal about spoilers (for a specific
episode, for instance) constitutes a spoiler...
But again, it's been more than three days that AOQ (well, Elissa,
AKA Mrs. AOQ) said that they were about to watch the season finale
that day. That's why I was sure that it would be ok to skip
forward and talk about Becoming (not in-depth, it was just a
comparative thing, in the context of Ken's comment)
> what's fun about these discussions is limiting
> them to what we know up to the point we've reached.
Oh yes!!! I can not agree more with this!! Another detail that I
find pretty fun is that we're once in a while throwing a spoiler in
a way that only those who know the series catch -- for instance,
Espen's comment some time around Innocence (or Surprise?), telling
AOQ something like: "you got that? you want me to write it down
for you?" -- I really had a good laugh with that; and of course,
there was no way that AOQ could have known that it was a spoiler,
or be spoiled in any way by that comment that only those who know
the show caught.
Carlos
--
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> No. Oh, speaking of visions, I guess since Dru helped Angelus prevent
> the re-souling, Buffy's dream about her killing Angel can be said to
> have come to pass. (if anyone thinks that's already been fulfilled in
> any other metaphorical context, let me know, sinc I'm not seeing it).
>
Well, it was Drusilla's plan to put the Judge back together that set
off the sequence of events which ultimately resulted in Buffy and Angel
having sex, and Angel losing his soul. So maybe you could finagle it in
that way.
>
> Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you're right.
>
In addition to Spike's impatience, there's also the matter that Spike
seemed, on the whole, a much more pragmatic vampire than Angel. It's
not that Spike wasn't sadistic, he liked torturing his victims as much
as the next vampire, but you get the impression from the earlier
episodes where he's in charge that he wouldn't be the sort of villain
to say something like, "Death is too good for my enemies, I want them
to suffer," either. Spike is the kind of villain who'd make fun of that
villain, and then snap the hero's neck before they have a chance to
escape.
So watching Angel tormenting Buffy but letting her live, when he could
have killed her easily, must be fairly excruciating.
--Sam
rrh...@acme.com
KenM47 wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >With the middle-act action basically over, now we just watch stuff
> >unfold. The show builds more suspense by giving Giles a bunch of other
> >stuff to do before he gets home... and then spending awhile before
> >actually discovering the body as we see Angel's elaborate setup. Now
> >that's just _mean_. I just realized that Angel(us) is basically
> >playing the same Wisecracking Sadist archetype as "School Hard" era
> >Spike was... and although his dialogue isn't as snappy, he's the
> >kind of effective villain that Spike can only dream of being.
>
> Angelus is three times the fiend Spike was painted as. Angelus is the
> master sadist. Spike's a Cub Scout in comparison.
Spike is basically a football hooligan, or one of those guys who will
get in a fight then have a drink with his opponent afterwards. He
likes violence for its own sake. Since he is a vampire the love of
violence is exaggerated, so that he will routinely kill and drink from
his opponent (which makes that drink afterwards problematic...). But
he is different from Angelus. Angelus is a sadist. The difference
between the two is one of kind, not merely of degree. They complement
one another such that under some circumstances their differences don't
matter, but their goals are not the same.
> >2) So the magic shop needs to sell Ouija boards and other bullshit
> >superstition to stay in business in the modern era. Cute. There'll
> >always be the assholes who prey on the gullible...
I see it more as being li