BtVS officially sucks now ("Seeing Red" spoilers)
Mark Moore
Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
window?
3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
for the series.
I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
related to the show.
If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
and put the show out of its miserable existence.
Mark
James Cardwell
Mark Moore wrote in message
<8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com>...
Well as for have no meaning, I guess you will have to watch the upcoming
episodes to determine that.
Aim: Take a look at it again. Warren is waving the gun around and firing
as he is backing out of the yard. And one shot seemed to be aimed high.
Ripper
wrote:
>What the hell was up with this episode?
>
>Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
>deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
Hey how many times have we seen Buffy's Mom now after SHE supposedly
died. And Buffy died, but she's alive now. How do you know Tara's
going to STAY dead?
>
>Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
Most death's don't....
>
>It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
>
>Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
>
>1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
>When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
>to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
>some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
She turned around to tell Willow and they were discussing the hope
that Xandar and Buffy would make up when Warren showed up.
>
>2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
>of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
>window?
Warren got knocked over by something or someone in the melee
(Xander?) and the gun went off.
>
>3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
She was talking to Willow.
>
>4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
>
>In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
>terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
>annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
>other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
>
>I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
>for the series.
Tara dies and Willow goes after Warren.
Don't fall in love with any particular character. Joss has no sacred
cows in his series. Major characters die off on this show.
>I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
>related to the show.
>
>If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
>the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
>the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
>and put the show out of its miserable existence.
>
Sorry, but this show is a stroke of brilliance. It's not formula or
predictable. And that's a rare thing in a TV show today.
In short, get over it...it's a TV show. I'm sure Amber Benson will be
around for other roles on another shows if not this one. And I
wouldn't totally rule her out on coming back.
Stranger things have happened.
Jonathan
wrote:
>What the hell was up with this episode?
Well, I loved it
>Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
>deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
I thought it was done in Tribute, I was moved, it's been a long time
coming. I wonder what Miss. Benson herself thought of it?
>Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
So you've seen next weeks episode? And the ones for season 7? We
don't know if her death has any meaning or not
>It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
I agree with you here, although it gave Michael Dorn extra air time
which was definitely needed
>Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
I think the writing was fine, I was more disappointed in the
direction, that scene with Spike riding away on his bike was
butchered, but I don't think the directing has been very good since
they've been on UPN
>1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
>When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
>to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
>some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
I doubt she stood there watching Buffy and Xander talking, she was
probly talking to Willow, like she should be
>2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
>of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
>window?
I'm not sure if you've ever actually fired a handgun or not? Well, I
have, and the way he was running and shooting at the same time, it's
impossible to aim while having your head and your whole body not
facing your target, let alone it's general direction, and with the way
guns kick back, without any concentration he couldn't hit the side of
a barn from 10 feet out, thus he missed Buffy by like 20 feet with
Tara's fatal shot
>3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
Probly talking to Willow
>4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
Since the windows weren't open, and we have no idea what she could
actually hear at that distance through presumably thick house walls
>In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
>terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
>annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
>other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
I'll agree it was Horrid, but It's a plot device, I'm sorry to see
Amber go, I loved her character, I love her acting ability, I love
everything I've heard come out of Ambers mouth, not to mention she's
just the kind of woman I'd love to meet (the real Amber, and Tara :) )
As long as they go somewhere good with it I'll be ok, it's a Drama,
and tonights episode is what I call good Drama :)
>I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
>for the series.
It's a big risk, but I applaud entertainment that is risky, and not
predictable, one of the reasons I've been watching Buffy since day
one, and will continue to do so.
>I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
>related to the show.
As is your right as a consumer, I hope to have every season on DVD
when it's all said and done, even season six with the low points and
the high points
>If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
>the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
>the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
>and put the show out of its miserable existence.
My father has a Nielson box, I think maybe I'll go and watch it with
him next week, and I'll make sure it's logged :)
Enjoy the next episode (If your gonna watch it that is)
Peace,
Jonathan :)
Don't try and confuse me with the fact's, Dave....
....Phil Hartman, News Radio
"Take what you can from your dreams, and make them as real as anything" - Dave Matthews-
"It just means that you'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me." --Willow to Xander in "Innocence"
Willow: hey, clothes,
Tara: better not get used to them (Seeing Red)
9/11/01
Heffaloo
"Mark Moore" <rory_ll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com...
> What the hell was up with this episode?
So, you expected a decent individual like Tara to eavesdrop on an obviously
private conversation between two people she respects? In the amount of time
it takes to empty a revolver, Tara should have heard the shots, raced to the
window, interpreted the chaos in the yard, and prepared an appropriate
spell? Was Warren in a trained firing stance, feet shoulder width apart,
off hand holding the shooting hand's wrist, aiming with both eyes open,
calmly exhaling while gently squeezing the trigger? Or was he shooting
wildly then hauling ass from someone who so recently whupped him? Do the
dozens of people getting shot by stray bullets in Los Angeles have
appropriate, plot-driven moments in their lives to be killed by gang members
shooting at someone else? Or are they just in the wrong place at the wrong
time?
I don't have any problem with the show. I have loved every season. I hope
the cast signs for an eighth season.
And I thought Nielson households used electronic monitoring of the
television now.
Heffaloo
--
"I guess I just prefer to see the dark side of things.
The glass is always half-empty.
And cracked.
And I just cut my lip on it.
And chipped a tooth."
--Janeane Garofalo
Brian the Snorf
>
> Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
He wanted to do it in the first episode with Jesse, he was finally able to
do it here. If anything, I'm almost 100 percent sure it was intended as a
tribute to Amber Benson.
> Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
> It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
The "purpose", from a writing standpoint, is to make Willow go over the
edge, which it does.
> Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
>
> 1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
Watch the episode again. She turns around to look at Willow after looking
out the window. Anyway, 2-3 minutes had passed between the last W/T scene
and the shootings, for all we know, she could have left the room and come
back.
> 2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> window?
He wasn't, he just was running backwards and shooting. He wasn't even
looking for the final shot. Anyway, chances are he's never used a gun
before.
> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
See above.
> 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
Apparently not. It wasn't like he had been there for more than 10 seconds.
> In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
> terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
Corporate?
> I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> for the series.
See, stuff like this is so stupid. Did you lose all respect for ST: TNG
when Yar died?
> I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
> related to the show.
>
> If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> and put the show out of its miserable existence.
Uh huh. Whatever. Anyway, it's been renewed. But Season 7 should be the
last, so you can rejoice.
-Snorf
Hunter
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> What the hell was up with this episode?
>
> Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
-----
Not if he has further use of her.
>
> Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
-----
Probably the point. Evil does not have to have a motive to kill; and
make no mistake, that is what killed Tara, evil; even if the immediate
cause was that Warren couldn't shot stra=-ight
>
> It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
----
Again, that was the point. The Oil slick entity killed Tasha for the
hell of it, Warren accidently kill Tara aiming for Buffy; he did not
even know she was there.
>
> Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
>
> 1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
----
She did not know he was there and her back was turned to the window
>
> 2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> window?
-----
He didn't. He was shooting wildly at Buffy and possibly Xander and
most importantly, he fired the shot that killed Tara when he was
totally turned around and running from the scence but his arm was
fully extended behind him, still firing at Buffy and Xander but with
his wist angled up involuntarily toward's Willow's window
>
> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
---
She was talking to Willow. She probably turned toward the window when
she heard the shots, turned back toward Willow with a "is that a gun?"
look on her face and at that moment was shot through the back. All
that happenened in the three seconds he was firing.
>
> 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
----
Him talking? Doubtful. Deepends on the background noise and how high
up they were. I'm sure she heard the shots but did not have time to
react. She is not a soldier or a cop or a criminal or any other
position in which to expect gunfire.
>
> In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
> terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
----
That's life.
>
> I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> for the series.
----
Tara's dead. Willow going to the darkside is a strong indicator of
that.
>
> I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
> related to the show.
>
> If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> and put the show out of its miserable existence.
>
>
> Mark
----
Might as well see it through to the end. Chances are excellent that
next season is the last. Poor Dawn, this is not going to help her
abandonment issues.
---->Hunter
Hunter
> On 7 May 2002 22:35:28 -0700, rory_ll...@hotmail.com (Mark Moore)
> wrote:
>
> >What the hell was up with this episode?
> >
> >Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> >deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
> Hey how many times have we seen Buffy's Mom now after SHE supposedly
> died. And Buffy died, but she's alive now. How do you know Tara's
> going to STAY dead?
>
> >
> >Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
> Most death's don't....
>
> >
> >It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
> >
> >Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
> >
> >1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> >When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> >to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> >some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
>
> She turned around to tell Willow and they were discussing the hope
> that Xandar and Buffy would make up when Warren showed up.
> >
> >2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> >of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> >window?
>
> Warren got knocked over by something or someone in the melee
> (Xander?) and the gun went off.
Xander was no where near Warren. Warren was firing wildly, his wildest
shot was when he was turning to run but still firing-blindly
now-behind him. That was the final shot, the killing shot that caught
Tara.
>
> >
> >3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
>
> She was talking to Willow.
>
> >
> >4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
> >
> >In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
> >terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> >annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> >other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
> >
> >I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> >for the series.
>
> Tara dies and Willow goes after Warren.
>
> Don't fall in love with any particular character. Joss has no sacred
> cows in his series. Major characters die off on this show.
Yes, but since this is paranormal show and not one based on reality
like "NYPD Blue" or "ER", so they can come back in another form.
>
> >I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
> >related to the show.
> >
> >If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> >the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> >the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> >and put the show out of its miserable existence.
> >
>
> Sorry, but this show is a stroke of brilliance. It's not formula or
> predictable. And that's a rare thing in a TV show today.
>
> In short, get over it...it's a TV show. I'm sure Amber Benson will be
> around for other roles on another shows if not this one. And I
> wouldn't totally rule her out on coming back.
>
> Stranger things have happened.
I think you can count on it.
------>Hunter
Rhonda Tipton
> predictable. And that's a rare thing in a TV show today.
>
> In short, get over it...it's a TV show. I'm sure Amber Benson will be
> around for other roles on another shows if not this one. And I
> wouldn't totally rule her out on coming back.
>
> Stranger things have happened.
I totally agree. It was a great episode (as are all of them). To be
tugging on people's emotions this much shows just how brilliant Joss
Whedon really is.
~Rhonda
Sarah
> "Mark Moore" <rory_ll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > What the hell was up with this episode?
>
> So, you expected a decent individual like Tara to eavesdrop on an obviously
> private conversation between two people she respects? In the amount of time
> it takes to empty a revolver, Tara should have heard the shots, raced to the
> window, interpreted the chaos in the yard, and prepared an appropriate
> spell? Was Warren in a trained firing stance, feet shoulder width apart,
> off hand holding the shooting hand's wrist, aiming with both eyes open,
> calmly exhaling while gently squeezing the trigger? Or was he shooting
> wildly then hauling ass from someone who so recently whupped him? Do the
> dozens of people getting shot by stray bullets in Los Angeles have
> appropriate, plot-driven moments in their lives to be killed by gang members
> shooting at someone else? Or are they just in the wrong place at the wrong
> time?
>
> I don't have any problem with the show. I have loved every season. I hope
> the cast signs for an eighth season.
>
Shhhhhh!!! If everyone keeps saying it will end with season 7, it
won't happen. If people say it will live a long life, it will die at
the end of 7.
That's just the way the world works.
It will end with season 7!
-Sarah
Mark Moore
> >deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
> I thought it was done in Tribute, I was moved, it's been a long time
> coming. I wonder what Miss. Benson herself thought of it?
Well, after the preview saying "You've heard the rumors" and
"Everything you think you know is wrong" (setting things up so we
don't know what to expect), I think that adding her to the theme song
was a cheap attempt at trying to deceive us into thinking Tara will
survive.
Besides, Joss always said that he wants to kill a charatcer from the
theme song. Adding Tara was a way for him to grant his own wish.
> >Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
> So you've seen next weeks episode? And the ones for season 7? We
> don't know if her death has any meaning or not
It has no meaning. If Tara died in a heroic fashion, I'd understand,
but she was killed in a cowardly act of violence.
What happens in the future doesn't matter. Nothing can give her death
meaning AFTER it's occured.
> >It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
>
> I agree with you here, although it gave Michael Dorn extra air time
> which was definitely needed
Speak for yourself. I'd take Denise over Michael anyday.
> >1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> >When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> >to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> >some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
>
> I doubt she stood there watching Buffy and Xander talking, she was
> probly talking to Willow, like she should be
She's already talked to Willow. Why wouldn't two friends potentially
making up interest her enough to watch and see what happens?
> >2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> >of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> >window?
>
> I'm not sure if you've ever actually fired a handgun or not? Well, I
Nope.
> >In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
> >terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> >annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> >other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
>
> I'll agree it was Horrid, but It's a plot device, I'm sorry to see
That's redundant and oxymoronic. Plot devices ARE horrid.
> As long as they go somewhere good with it I'll be ok, it's a Drama,
> and tonights episode is what I call good Drama :)
BtVS isn't supposed to be angsty, soapish drama. It's supposed to be a
dramedy.
> Enjoy the next episode (If your gonna watch it that is)
I'm gonna watch, but I probably won't enjoy it.
Mark
Daniel
The show is getting annoying, and they're clearly losing a lot of
viewers after this season. I'm sorry, but all the people on this
newsgroup giving that last episode 5 stars must be comparing with a
different show than I've watched for the past 6 years. I have seen
every single episode, and frankly this whole season has negatively
redefined, muted, or neutered every single character.
Tara acted completely different than she's been in the past 3 seasons,
Xander continuously gets more stupid, Buffy is just an annoying
whiner, Spike now becomes a rapist (I thought he was a murderer)
though he's never been sexually evil before, the three little boys are
just boring. Anya is pretty much keeping to character, but she's so
pathetic that's not much fun either.
I'm missing season 4 too. I agree that Buffy should deal sooner or
later with humans with guns, but add that intelligent bit of writing
to this pile of crap and the sum doesn't come out with much. Through
all the rewriting, BTVS forgot to do one thing this season- entertain.
I'm playing checkers next week instead.
db
Mark Elliott
"Brian the Snorf" <bria...@alumni.grinnell.edu> wrote in message
news:cu4C8.80293$vX.4918@rwcrnsc53...
>
> "Mark Moore" <rory_ll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > What the hell was up with this episode?
> >
> > Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> > deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
> He wanted to do it in the first episode with Jesse, he was finally able to
> do it here. If anything, I'm almost 100 percent sure it was intended as a
> tribute to Amber Benson.
>
> > Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
> >
> > It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
I don't see why a characters deaths have to have a meaning, sometimes in
life people die senseless deaths and dramas are supposed to reflect at least
partially real life. Tara is not the first person real or fake to have been
shot and killed by a stray bullet, real people don't have the magic
immortality that comes from a place in the credits :-)
bicklebear
something? I'm glad it's been made official that the show sucks. Now
I won't have to bother getting wrapped up in its terrific plot
developments or shocking endings anymore. More time to watch
predictable pap like Charmed! Thanks!
Todd
>
> Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
> Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
Precisely. It was without meaning, as are the deaths of many people
who get in the way of petty childish squabbles that some dolt thinks
they can solve with a gun. Pulling out a gun in the Buffyverse is a
serious thing, as it brings everything much closer to real life than
it usually is. It's making a very strong point, and in that it has a
lot of meaning.
Carmikl
>
.
>
> Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
Both of the controversial scenes, the rape and Tara's death, were
contrived, poorly written and directed. Warren didn't seem to be
interacting with anyone. His scene was probably shot after all of the
other actors went home.
>
> 1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
I think she had already turned and walked away from the window when
Warren arrived.
>
> 2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> window?
Buffy was down, and Xander was unarmed. Warren had nothing to fear, he
could have walked up and finished the job with little effort. The wild
shot in the air was horribly contrived and unbelievable..
>
> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
She was far enough away from the window that a bullet fired from the
yard one story down should have hit the ceiling, but not Tara.
>
> 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
She should have at least heard the gun and reacted. Maybe she didn't
have time to duck (though it seems she did), but at least a change in
facial expression would have been likely. Willow didn't reach either.
>
Matt
> > >Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
> >
> > So you've seen next weeks episode? And the ones for season 7? We
> > don't know if her death has any meaning or not
>
> It has no meaning. If Tara died in a heroic fashion, I'd understand,
> but she was killed in a cowardly act of violence.
>
> What happens in the future doesn't matter. Nothing can give her death
> meaning AFTER it's occured.
Death usually doesn't have meaning. I loved the fact that they killed her
off in such a sudden unexpected fashion. I'm tired of shows that always have
to have a big caracter die when doing something heroic.
Next week is too far away. :)
Guava Baby
> It's official?! Yey! Do we have to bring it to a notary republic, or
> something?
No, a notary public should do. No need to travel to the land of notaries!
Leigh
Blackberry
>
>Precisely. It was without meaning, as are the deaths of many people
>who get in the way of petty childish squabbles that some dolt thinks
>they can solve with a gun. Pulling out a gun in the Buffyverse is a
>serious thing, as it brings everything much closer to real life than
>it usually is. It's making a very strong point, and in that it has a
>lot of meaning.
Exactly. Humans can be even more evil than demons and vampires can be. All
they want is death, but humans are good at really torturing one another with
lingering pain.
--
I believe in everything, nothing is sacred.
I believe in nothing, everything is sacred.
- from "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues" by Tom Robbins
Christopher Gross
Most of this has already been dealt with by previous posters, but I just
*have* to respond to one part:
In article <8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com>,
Mark Moore <rory_ll...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
>the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
>the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
>and put the show out of its miserable existence.
Let me get this straight. You hate the show and want it cancelled, so you
urge Nielson households to lie about watching it ... but you don't stop
watching it, and you don't encourage those Nielson households to stop
watching either! I can't help but find this a little bizarre.
--Chris
--
______________________________________________________________________
Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@gwu.edu
Dr. Bond
Handgun fire in outside areas sounds a lot like fire crackers and
less like that big boom sound you tend to hear at the movies.
The only real deep sounding guns are the big shot guns and elephant
guns. A rifle is a bit of a bigger sound, but it depends on the size
of the barrel.
Christopher Gross
>Mark Moore wrote:
>>
>.
Adding some more spoiler space....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
>Both of the controversial scenes, the rape and Tara's death, were
>contrived, poorly written and directed.
Woah! Couldn't disagree more. I think both those scenes were very well
set up and directed, more so than the rest of the episode.
(Well, except for the thing of Spike's foot appearing in the mirror during
the rape scene. That's sloppy. On the other hand, vampire-mirror errors
have occurred earlier in the series, and I've lived with it. I watched
the episode twice and didn't notice the foot. Now that I've heard about
it, I probably still won't notice it when watching that scene, any more
than I notice the migrating paper towel roll in The Body.)
>Warren didn't seem to be
>interacting with anyone. His scene was probably shot after all of the
>other actors went home.
Warren was carefully framed so that you couldn't see his gun hand, but you
didn't *notice* you weren't seeing his hands either. I thought this was a
great touch. It added shock to the scene even for me. It must have
*really* heightened the surprise for viewers who avoided the blight of
spoilers. As for not interacting with anyone, if they had shown too much
of Buffy and Xander's reaction, it would have been clear that Warren had
some kind of real threat with him, detracting from the surprise.
>Buffy was down, and Xander was unarmed. Warren had nothing to fear, he
>could have walked up and finished the job with little effort. The wild
>shot in the air was horribly contrived and unbelievable..
From start to finish the shooting just lasted a couple of seconds.
Warren was firing wildly from the first shot, and by the last shot he had
already started running away. This is very very realistic and believable.
Now if Warren, who has probably never touched a gun before and knows how
fast the Slayer is, had aimed carefully instead of blazing away ... If
Warren was able to fire a bullet a second without having a few go wild ...
if Warren had calmly walked up and finished off the Slayer, confident that
she wouldn't reach up, grab him by the orbs, and pummel him to death ...
any of THOSE options would have been horribly contrived and unbelievable.
>> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
>
>She was far enough away from the window that a bullet fired from the
>yard one story down should have hit the ceiling, but not Tara.
You might be right there, I'll have to review the tape. It depends on how
far Warren was from the house and what angle the gun was at when he fired.
But even if you're right here, it's the kind of minor error that wouldn't
bother me.
>> 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
>
>She should have at least heard the gun and reacted. Maybe she didn't
>have time to duck (though it seems she did), but at least a change in
>facial expression would have been likely. Willow didn't reach either.
This doesn't bother me either. It was only a couple of seconds, and
anyway if Tara and Willow aren't very familiar with guns, they might not
have thought much of the sound. (Especially if it was muffled by closed
windows.)
san...@sarwate.net
Also, deaths on this show have always been more meaningful to the
survivors than to the person who is actually dead (vampires excepted).
Perhaps an argument could be made that this is true about death
generally. Certainly, I think the writers hold this view, because the
big deaths in the Buffy/ Angelverse seem to bear it out. Consider:
Jesse - Solidifies Xander's hatred of vamps, including more complex
creatures like Angel and Spike.
Jenny - Significant to Giles for obvious reasons, but also to others
in the "Becoming" arc, since restoring Angelus' soul becomes a way of
honoring Jenny.
Doyle - ultimately leads to Cordelia's sense of mission/ purpose and a
whole lot of growing up. Also, I think, gives Angel a greater sense
of guilt and a certain protectiveness towards his adopted family
(unless one of them screws up royally, as recently happened).
Joyce - Significant to the major Scoobies. Buffy for obvious reasons
(she's now the grown-up), Giles secondarily (he's now the "sole
parent", or views himself in that role), Xander and Willow tertially
(not sure if that's a word - but both Xander and Willow were closer to
Joyce than to their own mothers).
Tara - Full significance TBD, but clearly sends Willow off the deep
end.
Just thoughts.
Sam7777
> wrote:
>
> >What the hell was up with this episode?
> >
> >Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> >deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
> Hey how many times have we seen Buffy's Mom now after SHE supposedly
> died. And Buffy died, but she's alive now. How do you know Tara's
> going to STAY dead?
>
> >
> >Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
> Most death's don't....
>
death. They spent a whole episode on it. Not sure why they are
rehashing it now.
Not really. Joss has never killed any of the regular characters.
Ever. He kills the "red shirt" secondary characters like Jenny and
Tara so it's not really that big of a risk to kill a recurring
character who contract is limited.
> >I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
> >related to the show.
> >
> >If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> >the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> >the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> >and put the show out of its miserable existence.
> >
>
> Sorry, but this show is a stroke of brilliance. It's not formula or
> predictable. And that's a rare thing in a TV show today.
>
It is formula to kill the "red shirt" secondary character to generate
drama without risking the main characters. The minute that I heard
about the BSD, I knew it was Tara because she was the recurring
character. It was easy for me to predict as was Willow's descent into
Black magic because of it cuz I saw it last season.
They are repeating the senseless death plot from "The Body" and
Willow's rampage plots from "Tough Love" only this time we get 3 eps
of that. This seems to me a rehash of the Glory plot with Willow
taking the Glory role and Tara getting some really tough love. Last
season Buffy went nuts in "Weight of the World". This season Buffy
went nuts in "Normal Again". Last season Tara was mind sucked by
Glory in episode 19. This season Tara was killed by Warren in episode
19. Last season Willow went on a black magic rampage against Glory.
This season she's going on a black magic rampage against the nerds.
> In short, get over it...it's a TV show. I'm sure Amber Benson will be
> around for other roles on another shows if not this one. And I
> wouldn't totally rule her out on coming back.
>
One way to get over it is to change the channel as Steven DeKnight
suggested at the BronzeBeta board. Hopefully for the show, not too
many people will do that.
> Stranger things have happened.
Yep. Also more orginla things have happened.
Blackberry
>
>I think they made the senseless death point last season with Joyce's
>death. They spent a whole episode on it. Not sure why they are
>rehashing it now.
What about Jenny Calendar? What about the Mayor's assistant? What about Ben?
I seem to remember a *lot* of ignominious deaths.
Don Sample
<chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
> In article <3CD93A10...@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> >Mark Moore wrote:
>
> >> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
> >
> >She was far enough away from the window that a bullet fired from the
> >yard one story down should have hit the ceiling, but not Tara.
>
> You might be right there, I'll have to review the tape. It depends on how
> far Warren was from the house and what angle the gun was at when he fired.
> But even if you're right here, it's the kind of minor error that wouldn't
> bother me.
And as soon as the bullet hit the window all bets are off as to where
it's going next. Bullets *don't* travel in straight lines after
they've hit hard objects.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://www.synapse.net/~dsample/BBC
Quando omni flunkus moritati
a&w
> > >deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
> >
> > I thought it was done in Tribute, I was moved, it's been a long time
> > coming. I wonder what Miss. Benson herself thought of it?
>
> Well, after the preview saying "You've heard the rumors" and
> "Everything you think you know is wrong" (setting things up so we
> don't know what to expect), I think that adding her to the theme song
> was a cheap attempt at trying to deceive us into thinking Tara will
> survive.
>
> Besides, Joss always said that he wants to kill a charatcer from the
> theme song. Adding Tara was a way for him to grant his own wish.
>
Actually he already did that with Doyle in Angel.
Carmikl
>
> In article <3CD93A10...@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >Mark Moore wrote:
> >>
> >.
>
> Adding some more spoiler space....
>
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> >Both of the controversial scenes, the rape and Tara's death, were
> >contrived, poorly written and directed.
>
> Woah! Couldn't disagree more. I think both those scenes were very well
> set up and directed, more so than the rest of the episode.
>
> >Buffy was down, and Xander was unarmed. Warren had nothing to fear, he
> >could have walked up and finished the job with little effort. The wild
> >shot in the air was horribly contrived and unbelievable..
>
> From start to finish the shooting just lasted a couple of seconds.
> Warren was firing wildly from the first shot, and by the last shot he had
> already started running away. This is very very realistic and believable.
>
> Now if Warren, who has probably never touched a gun before and knows how
> fast the Slayer is, had aimed carefully instead of blazing away ...
He did aim, and he was able to hit Buffy with in inches of her heart
with the first or second shot. You said you were a target shooter, how
hard would that be for someone who never fired a gun before. I've been a
target shooter for 45 years, and I'm good, but I doubt that I could get
off a shot like that.
I should say that in 45 years of shooting I've never shot at a living
creature, even as a corpsman in Vietnam for 11 months.
> If Warren was able to fire a bullet a second without having a few go wild ...
> if Warren had calmly walked up and finished off the Slayer, confident that
> she wouldn't reach up, grab him by the orbs, and pummel him to death ...
All he had to do is close the distance and take careful aim, he didn't
have to come within her potential reach.
Sam7777
> On 7 May 2002 22:35:28 -0700, rory_ll...@hotmail.com (Mark Moore)
> wrote:
>
> >What the hell was up with this episode?
>
> Well, I loved it
>
> >Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> >deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
> I thought it was done in Tribute, I was moved, it's been a long time
> coming. I wonder what Miss. Benson herself thought of it?
>
> >Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
> So you've seen next weeks episode? And the ones for season 7? We
> don't know if her death has any meaning or not
>
Joss' statement of "back to basics" and Willo no longer being a junkie
indicate that the Willow issue is resolved this season.
> >It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
>
> I agree with you here, although it gave Michael Dorn extra air time
> which was definitely needed
>
> >Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
>
> I think the writing was fine, I was more disappointed in the
> direction, that scene with Spike riding away on his bike was
> butchered, but I don't think the directing has been very good since
> they've been on UPN
>
Absolutely. The editting has been especially choppy since "Wrecked".
Not really that big a risk as Tara was a secondary character. It
would have been more of a risk to have a regular character die. It
was obvious that Tara was the BSD.
> >I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
> >related to the show.
>
> As is your right as a consumer, I hope to have every season on DVD
> when it's all said and done, even season six with the low points and
> the high points
>
I don't plan to watch "Firefly" but I wasn't going to anyway. Afte
umpteenth years of Trek, I've had enough starship shows.
> >If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> >the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> >the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> >and put the show out of its miserable existence.
>
> My father has a Nielson box, I think maybe I'll go and watch it with
> him next week, and I'll make sure it's logged :)
>
I was a nielsen diary person in March and I made sure to see the Buffy
repeat that week but the ratings for the repeats were still very low.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the ratings for May
sweeps.
RogerM
>
> What the hell was up with this episode?
>
> deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
>
>
Good analogy, I enjoyed her death too.
> Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
>
> 1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
>
> 2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> window?
>
> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
>
> 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
>
> In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
> terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
>
A lot of people die that way. Stupid, cruel, and pointless.
> I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> for the series.
>
Get ready. I think she's toast. At least until Willow brings her back.
--
WARNING: The above message likely contains one or more generalizations.
Please do not attempt to disprove them with isolated exceptions.
"Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose." - Dale
Gribble
"From now on, whenever people get wood, they'll think of Trojans" - Ned
Flanders
"Stupid everything!" - Rocko, 'Undergrads'
Don Sample
> Christopher Gross wrote:
> >
>
> > If Warren was able to fire a bullet a second without having a few go wild
> > ...
> > if Warren had calmly walked up and finished off the Slayer, confident that
> > she wouldn't reach up, grab him by the orbs, and pummel him to death ...
>
> All he had to do is close the distance and take careful aim, he didn't
> have to come within her potential reach.
Yet strangely enough, shootings like this one happen all the time.
Most people shooting guns really aren't thinking all that clearly.
Steve Farrell
somebody called rory_ll...@hotmail.com (Mark Moore) made the following
views known to all at alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
> 1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
> When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
>
> 2) Warren seemed to be guessing while firing. He hit Buffy and a bunch
> of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> window?
And isn't that the point? Tara's death was plain bad luck. Warren didn't
set out to kill her. Warren didn't even aim the gun at her. The meaningless
of Tara's death was the point.
Tara's death was the kind of nasty, unpleasant death that happens day in
day out not just in BtVS but in real life. Caught on the wrong end of a bad
guy's bullet.
This happens in *every single episode* to random one-line characters. And
major characters also die (though Tara has the distinction of being the
only official Scooby ever to die). The only meaning behind Jenny Calendar's
death - if there was any - was that she was killed by someone she used to
trust. Joyce's death was poignant because it was natural and unexpected
(well, unexpected if you hadn't read spoilers). Doyle's death had meaning
because he sacrificed his life (although there is a good proportion of the
Angel viewing public who think that was very silly). Tara's death was just
plain bad luck.
> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
Why shouldn't she have been? She's a witch, not a clairvoyant.
> 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
I expect so. It's possible she wasn't expecting him to go kill crazy.
> In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
> terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
> If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> and put the show out of its miserable existence.
Nobody on that show is sacred. I wouldn't have been surprised if Xander had
died in the bar scene, or if Buffy staked Spike in the shower room. Well, I
*would*, but I wouldn't be all 'THEY KILLED A REGULAR CHARACTER! THOSE
BASTARDS! I WILL NEVER WATCH BUFFY AGAIN, EXCEPT I WILL BECAUSE THOUSANDS
OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID THEY'LL NEVER WATCH BUFFY AGAIN AFTER (insert episode)
AND YET STILL DO', or anything.
Steve
--
'I tried being patient, but it took too long' - Anya, BtVS
Jonathan
wrote:
>> I thought it was done in Tribute, I was moved, it's been a long time
>> coming. I wonder what Miss. Benson herself thought of it?
>
>Well, after the preview saying "You've heard the rumors" and
>"Everything you think you know is wrong" (setting things up so we
>don't know what to expect), I think that adding her to the theme song
>was a cheap attempt at trying to deceive us into thinking Tara will
>survive.
Yes, that whole "What you heard is wrong" trick was lame. I knew
somebody was going to die, probly Tara, but I make a conscious effort
to not read spoilers. To the average viewer who doesn't follow the
news group, like my sister who was completely shocked (and loved the
whole eppy) the whole "You've heard the rumors" thing was meaningless
>Besides, Joss always said that he wants to kill a charatcer from the
>theme song. Adding Tara was a way for him to grant his own wish.
>
>> >Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>>
>> So you've seen next weeks episode? And the ones for season 7? We
>> don't know if her death has any meaning or not
>
>It has no meaning. If Tara died in a heroic fashion, I'd understand,
>but she was killed in a cowardly act of violence.
>What happens in the future doesn't matter. Nothing can give her death
>meaning AFTER it's occured.
This whole season was supposed to be about the Scoobs growing up, and
unfortunately sometimes life pulls the rug out from under you for no
apparent reason, making one have to try and deal, and grow as people
after the fact. Hopefully Tara's death will allow for some type of
plot development that couldn't have occurred without it. If not, and
her death was a complete waste plot wise, I will be extremely
disappointed, but this remains to be seen.
>> >1) Tara was standing by the window, looking out at Buffy and Xander.
>> >When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
>> >to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
>> >some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
>>
>> I doubt she stood there watching Buffy and Xander talking, she was
>> probly talking to Willow, like she should be
>
>She's already talked to Willow. Why wouldn't two friends potentially
>making up interest her enough to watch and see what happens?
Being as blissfully happy as Tara and Willow were at that moment I'm
surprised they wern't back in the bedroom again. I would suspect that
while they were happy that they were making up, it was more of an
afterthought
>> >In short, the way Tara died sucked, blew, and was generally horrid,
>> >terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
>> >annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
>> >other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
>>
>> I'll agree it was Horrid, but It's a plot device, I'm sorry to see
>
>That's redundant and oxymoronic. Plot devices ARE horrid.
But sometimes necessary to further the story, we'll have to see where
they go with it from here
>> As long as they go somewhere good with it I'll be ok, it's a Drama,
>> and tonights episode is what I call good Drama :)
>
>BtVS isn't supposed to be angsty, soapish drama. It's supposed to be a
>dramedy.
Buffy has always had elements of a soapish drama in it, even way back
in season one (Willow loves Xander - Xander wants Buffy - Buffy loves
Angel - Xander and Angel are jealous of each other, ect.) Perhaps it's
more so this season, it hasn't bothered me, and I've still been able
to laugh this season so the comedy element is still there in my eyes
>> Enjoy the next episode (If your gonna watch it that is)
>
>I'm gonna watch, but I probably won't enjoy it.
I hope to read your comments about next weeks one too, your post
spurred a reaction from me that I usually do not show, and I'm happy
to have read it, I truly respect differing points of view
Peace Mark,
Jonathan :)
Don't try and confuse me with the fact's, Dave....
....Phil Hartman, News Radio
"Take what you can from your dreams, and make them as real as anything" - Dave Matthews-
"It just means that you'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me." --Willow to Xander in "Innocence"
Willow: hey, clothes,
Tara: better not get used to them (Seeing Red)
9/11/01
Christopher Gross
>>
>> In article <3CD93A10...@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> >Mark Moore wrote:
>> >>
>> >.
>>
>> Adding some more spoiler space....
>>
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>>
>> >could have walked up and finished the job with little effort. The wild
>> >shot in the air was horribly contrived and unbelievable..
>>
>> From start to finish the shooting just lasted a couple of seconds.
>> Warren was firing wildly from the first shot, and by the last shot he had
>> already started running away. This is very very realistic and believable.
>>
>> Now if Warren, who has probably never touched a gun before and knows how
>> fast the Slayer is, had aimed carefully instead of blazing away ...
>
>He did aim, and he was able to hit Buffy with in inches of her heart
>with the first or second shot.
I'll have to watch the episode again [I'm saying that so often, I should
write a macro to type it for me], but I don't remember Warren taking
careful aim. As I recall he went from rant to point to shoot in about one
second, and he did not raise the gun to eye level to line up the shot.
But I'll admit my memory has failed before. (At least I think it has!)
>You said you were a target shooter, how
>hard would that be for someone who never fired a gun before.
Not too easy, but not implausibly hard either. Really, I just think it
was a lucky shot. If you unload four or five shots at someone from a
distance of fifteen or twenty feet, getting one hit in the upper chest
doesn't seem *that* unlikely to me. Even if the distribution of the
bullets was perfectly random, there'd be a *small* chance Buffy would get
hit in the upper chest. And Warren was at least pointing at her, so the
chances were that much higher than pure random chance.
As for my own experience: I fired a .22 four or five times as a kid, but
never touched a handgun until I was 28, when I went to that target range
with some friends. We started by firing a 9mm automatic, at a range of 10
yards (not 7, which I gather is more usual). My first time up I didn't
even aim too hard, concentrating on getting used to the noise and kick.
I fired six shots at a paper human silhouette target. All six were on the
paper, five were in the black, four were in the central "kill zone." And
I'm no more renowned for my coordination than Warren is. Admittedly, I
was using a two-handed stance and firing more slowly. But even allowing
for that, I don't find what Warren did beyond the bounds of plausibility.
Another point about Warren walking away instead of finishing Buffy off:
If he saw Buffy's wound, near her heart, he may have assumed that she was
already dead. No need to remain at the crime scene for any more shots.
Anyway, whether or not what we saw on the screen was technically accurate,
I'm willing to buy it. The story says Warren fired several shots at
Buffy. One hit her and the others went wild, one hitting Tara. ME made a
good-faith effort of showing that on the screen. Even if they didn't get
all the details perfect, I'm willing to buy it, because the basic premise
doesn't strike me as too implausible to believe. It's no more implausible
than, say, Buffy showing up just as a vampire attacks her friends in When
She Was Bad, for example.
--Chris
(who reiterates that he's not an expert on any of this)
Carmikl
>
> In article <abblqn$i...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>, Christopher Gross
> <chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>
> > In article <3CD93A10...@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Mark Moore wrote:
> >
> > >> 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
> > >
> > >She was far enough away from the window that a bullet fired from the
> > >yard one story down should have hit the ceiling, but not Tara.
> >
> > You might be right there, I'll have to review the tape. It depends on how
> > far Warren was from the house and what angle the gun was at when he fired.
> > But even if you're right here, it's the kind of minor error that wouldn't
> > bother me.
>
> And as soon as the bullet hit the window all bets are off as to where
> it's going next. Bullets *don't* travel in straight lines after
> they've hit hard objects.
>
favorite prey. I've never seen a bottle redirect a bullet. Considering
that bullet had enough velocity to go completely through Tara, I don't
think the window had an effect.
EGK
At that angle, the glass would be more apt to deflect the bullet even
farther upwards if anything at all. Sort of skimming off it like a flat
rock on a pond. Even that's pretty iffy. It's sure not going to have
enough effect to actually redirect it back down towards level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
- (Calvin and Hobbes)
Santa del Sangre
>
> Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
>
>
>
>
> When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> to get as far AWAY from the window as possible (or at least perform
> some witchy voodoo on Warren to get rid of the gun)?
>
> of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> window?
>
>
>
> terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
>
> for the series.
>
> related to the show.
>
Re: Amber in the Credits -- Joss Whedon is a megalo-maniac who is now
drunk on his own fame. He is like the invisible member of the "Nerd
Empire" -- really just another sad, pathetic little man. I can't
reason why anyone would call him a "God."
Re: Tara's Death -- Agree with you completely. Totally unbelievable,
and completely unnecessary. Big rotten tomato to M.E. on this one. I
hope they have a gigantic magic shit-shovel on hand.
SdS
Blackberry
>
>I've been a target shooter all of my life, with bottles and cans as my
>favorite prey. I've never seen a bottle redirect a bullet. Considering
>that bullet had enough velocity to go completely through Tara, I don't
>think the window had an effect.
I guess I'm just weird in that I don't have a problem with a little dramatic
license in a dramatic work. In a fantasy world, sometimes the fantastic happens
("fantastic" in the original meaning, from the same root as "fantasy").
Blackberry
>
>Re: Amber in the Credits -- Joss Whedon is a megalo-maniac who is now
>drunk on his own fame. He is like the invisible member of the "Nerd
>Empire" -- really just another sad, pathetic little man. I can't
>reason why anyone would call him a "God."
Dang it, I was going to reply, but then I realized that I *always* fall for
trolls.
David Milligan
"a&w" <a...@w.com> wrote in message
news:nyeC8.17301$GLp1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> "Mark Moore" <rory_ll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > > >Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> > > >deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
> > >
> > > I thought it was done in Tribute, I was moved, it's been a long time
> > > coming. I wonder what Miss. Benson herself thought of it?
> >
> > Well, after the preview saying "You've heard the rumors" and
> > "Everything you think you know is wrong" (setting things up so we
> > don't know what to expect), I think that adding her to the theme song
> > was a cheap attempt at trying to deceive us into thinking Tara will
> > survive.
> >
Joyce came back (sorta) and Buffy came back, so why not Tara? (discounting
TBTB and what they want)
Sam7777
> On 8 May 2002 10:41:22 -0700, sam7...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >I think they made the senseless death point last season with Joyce's
> >death. They spent a whole episode on it. Not sure why they are
> >rehashing it now.
>
> What about Jenny Calendar? What about the Mayor's assistant? What about Ben?
> I seem to remember a *lot* of ignominious deaths.
>
Absolutely and all of secondary "red shirt" characters but they made a
real episode long point about senseless death last season with Joyce
in "The Body". The point has been made. I'd like to see something
new.
Mark Moore
> shot was when he was turning to run but still firing-blindly
> now-behind him. That was the final shot, the killing shot that caught
> Tara.
My friend Tommy and I discussed the episode at work today. We both
agree that, no matter how "wildly" Warren was firing, it makes zero
sense for him to aim the gun up so high.
We also agree that Tara would've beem interested in seeing if Buffy
and Xander made up and should've backed away from the window.
Mark
Mark Moore
> > terrible, contrived, unworthy, poorly written, unnecessary, stupid,
> > annoying, insulting, crappy, dismissive, shitty, corporate, and all
> > other manner of foul and uncouth adjectives.
>
I dunno. I copied and pasted that stuff from a "Transformers: Beast
Machines" episode review.
> > I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> > for the series.
>
> See, stuff like this is so stupid. Did you lose all respect for ST: TNG
> when Yar died?
I started watching ST:TNG at the series finale.
> Uh huh. Whatever. Anyway, it's been renewed. But Season 7 should be the
> last, so you can rejoice.
I'll play an MP3 of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" on that night.
Mark
Mark Moore
> life people die senseless deaths and dramas are supposed to reflect at least
> partially real life. Tara is not the first person real or fake to have been
> shot and killed by a stray bullet, real people don't have the magic
> immortality that comes from a place in the credits :-)
That kind of "magic immortality" didn't work for Tara. =(
Mark
Don Sample
> > Xander was no where near Warren. Warren was firing wildly, his wildest
> > shot was when he was turning to run but still firing-blindly
> > now-behind him. That was the final shot, the killing shot that caught
> > Tara.
>
> My friend Tommy and I discussed the episode at work today. We both
> agree that, no matter how "wildly" Warren was firing, it makes zero
> sense for him to aim the gun up so high.
I suggest that you or your friend try running in one direction, and
pointing a gun back behind you, and then see how accurately you shoot.
Mark Moore
> urge Nielson households to lie about watching it ... but you don't stop
> watching it, and you don't encourage those Nielson households to stop
> watching either! I can't help but find this a little bizarre.
I'm going to stick with the show until the end, but the sooner the end
comes, the better.
Mark
Supasweetfreak
ep, and like Jenny, Oz, and Angel before her, Tara's time had passed.
The show has to move forward, not stay in a rut. Now the excitement
of seeing how Willow changes as a consequence! :) It might be good, it
might be bad, it might be scary, but at least it won't be the same
old, same old and be blah inducing like the W/T relationship was
getting.
Don Sample
That sort of attitude strikes me as somewhat masochistic.
Random Handle
news:b68a3c92.02050...@posting.google.com...
> Jonathan <snlto...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<eeghdu83qfvm3rikc...@4ax.com>...
> > On 7 May 2002 22:35:28 -0700, rory_ll...@hotmail.com (Mark Moore)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >What the hell was up with this episode?
> >
> > Well, I loved it
Me too, great on the melodrama. They seem to be getting back on track.
> Joss' statement of "back to basics" and Willo no longer being a junkie
> indicate that the Willow issue is resolved this season.
Hm. I loved the dark Willow scenes from "next week's ep." Made us laugh :)
> > >It was empty, a death without purpose
Sure there was a purpose, to set Willow off again.
> > >Besides, the whole scene was poorly-written:
We loved it.
> > >When Warren arrived and drew a gun, shouldn't that have been her cue
> > >to get as far AWAY from the window as possible
She was facing toward the room, not looking out, if I recall. She and
Willow couldn't stop making googly eyes at each other. I also liked the way
the show didn't pull any punches about the gay kissing etc. Let middle
America fume. But I'm glad they pulled their punch on the rape.
> > >of random places in the yard. Why would he aim his gun up at the
> > >window?
I think the point was that he was too upset to aim at all. He had come
unhinged.
> > I'll agree it was Horrid, but It's a plot device, I'm sorry to see
> > Amber go, I loved her character, I love her acting ability, I love
> > everything I've heard come out of Ambers mouth, not to mention she's
> > just the kind of woman I'd love to meet (the real Amber, and Tara :) )
> > As long as they go somewhere good with it I'll be ok, it's a Drama,
> > and tonights episode is what I call good Drama :)
It's what I would call great melodrama.
Besides her personality, what I liked about the casting/wardrobe of Tara was
that she has a belly on her, making every time they showed her an
in-your-face to the super-skinny Hollywood notions of what female
attractiveness should be.
> > >I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> > >for the series.
Nah, this ep. made me regain respect. And since the blurb for next week
says the group copes with the death of one of their own, plus the next
week's scenes of furious dark Willow -- loved the hair btw! --, plus the
obvious shot through the heart, hello!, you have to assume Tara died.
Carmikl
>
>
> > 3) Why was Tara standing with her back to the window?
>
> Why shouldn't she have been? She's a witch, not a clairvoyant.
>
> > 4) Did Tara not hear Warren?
>
> I expect so. It's possible she wasn't expecting him to go kill crazy.
Certainly Tara and Willow would have heard the gunshots. It was the
fifth shot that hit Tara, but neither of them even changed their facial
expression at the sound of gunfire. Maybe they didn't have time to duck,
but there should have been some reaction like turning her head in the
direction of the sound. That's just bad writing and bad direction.
Fallis Maximus
(I read the rest, now I'm quoting the best.)
~Another point about Warren walking away instead of finishing Buffy off:
~If he saw Buffy's wound, near her heart, he may have assumed that she was
~already dead. No need to remain at the crime scene for any more shots.
Or, maybe, the next scene will be him looking up at the dark clouds &
lightning gathering over the upper story of the house, and, as Willow's
voice echoes out & over the entire neighborhood, his face goes completely
white! Then, he runs like, well, the expletive of YOUR CHOICE!
---
My rabbit's just turned into frogs, they croaked.
Mark Jones
rory_ll...@hotmail.com (Mark Moore) did utter the following:
>My friend Tommy and I discussed the episode at work today. We both
>agree that, no matter how "wildly" Warren was firing, it makes zero
>sense for him to aim the gun up so high.
>
>We also agree that Tara would've beem interested in seeing if Buffy
>and Xander made up and should've backed away from the window.
Not very familiar with the realities of gunfire, are you? There's
this little thing called "recoil" and a man blindly yanking a
trigger as rapidly as he can--I doubt Warrne has either training or
the patience to _get_ training in shooting properly--can very easily
wind up firing the gun high enough to shoot through a second story
window.
--
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk."
--Tuco, _The Good the Bad and the Ugly_
Carmikl
>
> It's official?! Yey! Do we have to bring it to a notary republic
What's that? Is it a form of government, or the homeland of all
notaries?
Kirk
news:3cdbfb5f...@news.newsguy.com...
> And yea, verily, on 8 May 2002 16:18:38 -0700
> rory_ll...@hotmail.com (Mark Moore) did utter the following:
>
> >My friend Tommy and I discussed the episode at work today. We both
> >agree that, no matter how "wildly" Warren was firing, it makes zero
> >sense for him to aim the gun up so high.
> >
> >We also agree that Tara would've beem interested in seeing if Buffy
> >and Xander made up and should've backed away from the window.
I go shooting a couple times a year, and one thing I've noticed is that the
ceiling of the indoor range I go to is just *peppered* with bullet holes,
some almost right above where the shooters fire from.
-- Kirk
Proving, once and for all, that
men can wear capri - style pants.
Christopher Gross
Just a couple of quick comments re: the last scene.
First, some spoiler space:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Now, last night I reviewed the scene as carefully as possible. My VCR
can't do slo-mo, and freeze frames are all staticky, but I think I
understand the details of the last scene a lot better.
On some points, I think I was right. Warren definitely didn't aim
carefully. Contrary to what I said earlier, he did at least raise the gun
to eye level; but then he fired immediately, without taking even half a
second to line the shot up. Also, he fired five shots in three seconds,
too fast for careful aiming. The first three shots were at least pointed
at Buffy, the last two were completely wild.
I also still think I was right about Buffy getting hit. Although Warren
wasn't aiming carefully, Buffy was less than 20 feet away. At that range,
it's not implausible that Warren hit her with one of his first three
shots. (It's hard to be sure exactly how far away Warren is. As best I
can tell, Buffy had stood up but was still next to the bench. The bench
looks to be no more than 8 ft. from the little split rail fence, and the
big fence where Warren stood seems to be about 10 ft. beyond that.)
On the other hand, I think I was wrong about the shot that hit Tara.
Carmikl and the other skeptics are right, it does look pretty hard to draw
a straight line from the gun to the hole in the window to Tara's wound.
Not impossible, but much more unlikely than I had thought earlier. (Same
thing for Tara seeing Xander from the window. If only they'd had Tara
standing right next to the window, neither of these problems would be
noticeable.)
However, the Tara-shooting-angle problem doesn't ruin the scene for
me. As far as I'm concerned, it's totally plausible that Warren shoots
wildly, that one bullet hits Buffy, and that a stray shot hits Tara. I
can overlook minor errors in showing these shots on the screen.
--Chris
Carmikl
>
> Just a couple of quick comments re: the last scene.
>
> First, some spoiler space:
>
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
>
> On some points, I think I was right. Warren definitely didn't aim
> carefully. Contrary to what I said earlier, he did at least raise the gun
> to eye level; but then he fired immediately, without taking even half a
> second to line the shot up.
Buffy isn't a paper target. she wasn't likely to stay still very long
while he lined up his shot.
> Also, he fired five shots in three seconds,
> too fast for careful aiming. The first three shots were at least pointed
> at Buffy,
You can't take much time between shots at a moving target like Buffy
before she gets behind cover?
> the last two were completely wild.
>
> I also still think I was right about Buffy getting hit. Although Warren
> wasn't aiming carefully, Buffy was less than 20 feet away. At that range,
> it's not implausible that Warren hit her with one of his first three
> shots.
It had to be the second or third. After the first shot Buffy turned and
pushed Xander out of the way. You can't see that without slow motion.
I think you misunderstood what I meant in an earlier post. I don't think
that was the first time Warren fired a gun, and I thought his aim was
pretty good under the circumstances. Much better than I could do.
That's what makes his two final wild shots so hard to understand. He
should have either finished the job, or just turned to run away.
(It's hard to be sure exactly how far away Warren is. As best I
> can tell, Buffy had stood up but was still next to the bench. The bench
> looks to be no more than 8 ft. from the little split rail fence, and the
> big fence where Warren stood seems to be about 10 ft. beyond that.)
>
> On the other hand, I think I was wrong about the shot that hit Tara.
> Carmikl and the other skeptics are right, it does look pretty hard to draw
> a straight line from the gun to the hole in the window to Tara's wound.
> Not impossible, but much more unlikely than I had thought earlier. (Same
> thing for Tara seeing Xander from the window. If only they'd had Tara
> standing right next to the window, neither of these problems would be
> noticeable.)
>
> However, the Tara-shooting-angle problem doesn't ruin the scene for
> me. As far as I'm concerned, it's totally plausible that Warren shoots
> wildly, that one bullet hits Buffy, and that a stray shot hits Tara. I
> can overlook minor errors in showing these shots on the screen.
>
The shooting scene doesn't bother me as much as the fact that neither
Tara or Willow reacted to the sound of the gunfire. At the very least,
Tara's head should have turned toward the direction of the sound. That
would be and instinctive reaction.
bicklebear
it's public again.
You'd think after 6 years in the finance business I'd know what these
terms mean.
bicklebear
> > something?
>
> No, a notary public should do. No need to travel to the land of notaries!
>
It'd be a fun trip, though! And we could get all our notarizing done all at once!
> Leigh
Christopher Gross
Newsgroups: gwu.general
Subject: Re: all your base are belong to us ?
Summary:
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In article <t6tv6.128$Rf7...@grover.nit.gwu.edu>,
Jeffrey Boulier <jeff...@gwu.edu> wrote:
>I'm assuming that the above phrase came from a real Japanese video game
>programmer with a bit less English than he thought. Am I right? Which game
>is it from?
I believe it's from the Sega Genesis game Zero Wing (or Wing Zero?). A
friend forwarded this to me:
<http://www.imsa.edu/~dank/AYB2.swf>
You'll need the Flash plugin.
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Xander: Opinions?(HB SPOILERS of course)
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In article <5b424975.02030...@posting.google.com>,
Jarrod Harmier <har...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[some spoilers for old episodes]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > 3) And if you think Buffy has never thought of Xander as possibly
>> > being more then a friend, you haven't seen enough episodes.
>>
>> Please refresh our memories...besides Beauty and the Beast.Really, cuz your
>> numbers 1 and 2...I like those.
>
>Sure thing.
>
>There are many subtle and not-so-subtle Buffy/Xander moments, both
>happy and not-so-happy.
I agree with your point, but not most of your examples. There are plenty
of scenes where we see Xander loves Buffy as more than a friend, but
only a few where Buffy feels that way about Xander.
>"Prophecy Girl": Contains one of the most heartbreaking Buffy/Xander
>moments in the entire series. However, it also contains one of the
>most inspiring Buffy/Xander moments of all the episodes at this time.
I think I know which scenes you're referring to. IMO both are cases of
Buffy thinking "I love Xander as a friend, but not romantically." Xander,
of course, feels differently, but we're focusing on how B feels about X
here.
>"Inca Mummy Girl": Just before Xander is about to take Ampata to the
>dance/party, Buffy tells him that he looks nice. When they finally
>leave, Buffy looks out the door with a wistful look on her face.
Here I think she felt wistful because she wished she was falling in love
and going to the dance, not because she wanted Xander specifically.
> In
>the very last scene, Buffy and Xander have a conversation that ends
>with them talking about him brining her back to life in "Prophecy
>Girl" and they share a look that lasts a little too long to be called
>"just friendly".
This one I definitely agree with.
>"Phases": The arm punch scene. You'll know it when you see it. It's
>so cute.
Definitely cute, but it showed X's feelings about B, not B's about X.
> The fight scene in the mortuary and the hug and the look
>Buffy and Xander share because of it.
I agree about this one too.
>Is it just me, but is "Buffy"
>the only series that can make a hug after a fight in a mortuary
>classify as an incredibly romantic moment?
It's not just you!
>"Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered": The scene with Buffy and the
>raincoat and what Xander DOESN'T DO and why he doesn't do it. The
>scene where Buffy and Xander talk about what he didn't do.
The way I see it, Buffy was definitely impressed by the way Xander "comes
through," but there was no sign she was thinking of him as a potential
love interest for herself. It's another "I love him as a friend" scene.
>"Killed By Death": The classic "white knight" scene between Angelus
>and Xander. (This scene still gives me chills.) The "watching her
>back" scene". In this Cordelia, accuses Xander of checking out
>Buffy's butt using "watching her back" as euphemism. (This is
>important since it connects to a later episode.)
These are great scenes, but again, they only show X's feelings about B,
not B's about X.
>"Go Fish": The Speedo scene where Xander says, "I'm undercover."
>Buffy smirks and says, "You're not under much."
She was looking, but I don't see her wanting to touch.
>"Becoming" part II: In the beginning of the episode, when the police
>are trying to make her leave, Buffy sees Xander unconscious in the
>stacks and says, "Wait! Just see if he's okay! Please!" The hug in
>the hallway of the hospital.
These scenes definitely show that Buffy loves Xander, but they don't
have anything in them that says "love as possible lover" as opposed to
"love as dear friend."
> Note: Just in case anyone wants to use the "lie" to
>deflate any hopes for B/X, Joss has already stated that Xander lied to
>protect Buffy.
A bit off topic, but I agree with you about the whole "lie" issue. I'm
new to this NG, but I've seen Xander get bashed for it on various web
pages. IMO, jealousy was a small part of Xander's motivation for
lying; desire to protect Buffy was a much bigger part. (After all, the
last attempt at restoring Angel's soul, which ended with Kendra dead and
Willow near death, was still fresh in his mind.) Also, I don't think the
lie made any practical difference. Either way, she couldn't have stopped
Angel from finishing the ritual, so she would still have had to push him
through the gate to hell. Note that Buffy never seems to resent Xander
for his lie.
>"Bad Girls": The conversation scene between Faith and Buffy about
>Xander. Buffy says, "Thanks for the poetry. And, no. I love Xander.
>I just don't...*love* Xander. Besides, I think it ruins friendship
>to do that stuff." Faith replies, "You think too much." (This
>suggests that Buffy's at least though about Xander in that fashion.)
I half-agree here. It suggests Buffy has *thought* about it, but it also
suggests that she decided no.
>"Earshot": Buffy overhears Xander's "naked Buffy" thoughts in the
>library, confronts him, and he leaps out his seat and quickly exits.
>Buffy's face has a slight smile showing that she wasn't really hurt by
>his thoughts but amused by them and his reaction to her knowing about
>his thoughts. Later in the episode, he asks if she can still read his
>thoughts. She shakes her head. "Just when I wasn't thinking about
>sex." He cares about what Buffy thinks of him.
Still another case where
>
>"Graduation": The touching scene between Buffy and Xander after she
>has decided to kill Faith. Xander says, "I don't want to lose you."
>"I won't get hurt." "That's not what I mean." The two "key guy"
>scenes. Okay, they're not technically Buffy/Xander scenes, but in the
>first scene when Xander realizes he's become Buffy's "key guy" he gets
>all excited and then faces "the mind numbing fear" with the relative
>calm he used at the ends of "The Zeppo". The second "key guy" scene
>highlights his rivalry with Angel and the fact that Buffy is starting
>to stop viewing Angel as her "key guy".
>
>"The Freshman": When Buffy sees Xander for the first time, she jumps
>into his arms. Possibly the scene where Xander infers that he was a
>male stripper and Buffy has look of amusement...mixed with something
>else. (She's probably remembering how he looked in a Speedo.) The
>"You're my hero" speech.
>
>"Living Conditions": The scene where Buffy meets Parker (a.k.a
>Poop-head, a.k.a Id boy). Why does this classify as a Buffy/Xander
>moment? First, Parker is an inferior-to-the-original Xander clone
>based on his hair, smile, and his his Xander-lite humor. Except
>Parker is a total jerk. (They just don't get to that until the next
>episode.) Second, in this scene, Parker says, "I'll watch your
>back." When Buffy turns and enters the cafeteria, Parker tilts his
>head so that his eyes have a good view of where her posterior would
>be. (Our view of Buffy is blocked by the wall.) This is where the
>"watching her back" scene from "Killed By Death" is important. I
>think the writers were trying to make a subtle connection between
>Parker and Xander and suggest that Buffy fell for Parker because he
>had certain physical similarities to Xander. The original shooting
>script didn't make any specific physical description of Parker
>excepted that he was older and handsome. Also, the original script
>didn't have the "I'll watch your back" line. Also, Parker dresses a
>lot like hyena-Xander starts to dress in "The Pack".
>
>"Fear, Itself": When Buffy sees Xander in his costume she says, "Like
>the tux Xand." There's something about her tone of voice.
>
>"Beer Bad": The scene in the bar when Xander is trying to talk to
>Buffy after she sees Parker with another young woman. The "Boy smells
>nice" scene.
>
>"The Initiative": The scene where Xander goes to the party to get
>Buffy and they leave hand in hand. The scene where Xander indicates
>he's jealous of Riley. (He never comes out and says it, of course.)
>The conversation they have somewhat mirrors a conversation they had in
>"Teacher's Pet" where Xander brought up the subject of Angel.
>
>"Restless": (Possibly) The scene where Buffy calls him "big brother"
>and his face gives off a pained expression as he asks, "Brother?" My
>interpretation is that Buffy was not tallking about loving Xander like
>a brother but acknowledging his role as her "white knight" and
>possibly his feelings for her. (You really have to watch "Killed by
>Death".) Xander's dream seems to be ruled by his insecurities which
>don't allow him to hear what Buffy is really saying and don't allow
>him to understand what Giles and Anya is saying. (I'm fairly certain
>the enjoining spell allowed Xander's insecurities to utitlize Giles'
>knowledge of languages to mask what Giles and Anya were saying to him
>when they started speaking French.)
>
>"Buffy vs. Dracula": Even when under the thrall of Dracula, Xander
>asks if it's okay if he takes her to Dracula. He doesn't try to force
>her. Hmm.
>
>"The Replacement": The scene where Xander continually shields Buffy
>from the blast, until he actually gets hit. The version I saw on FX
>cut some of it. Good thing I taped it off of the WB when it was
>originally broadcast.
>
>"I Was Made to Love You": A shot of her hugging "puffy Xander" and her
>contented moans and sighs at doing so. A piece of dialogue that
>suggests that Xander still has feelings for Buffy. The scene where
>April apologizes to Buffy about hurting her and says that Buffy's
>boyfriend could take care of her. Xander is the first guy to start
>moving. Ben comes in from the side and he doesn't seem to walk as
>fast as Xander does. At the end, Buffy says she doesn't need to be in
>a relationship right now and says she needs to be alone with Buffy.
>Xander responds by saying, "Well, she's a pretty cool person to be
>alone with."
>
>"Spiral": The scene outside of the gas station where Buffy and Xander
>meet the Knights for an exchange. This shows that his "key guy"
>status that he gained in "Graduation" is not only intact but has been
>strengthened. This scene also shows the level of trust that they have
>built over the years. A good relationship needs trust.
>
>"All the Way": After Buffy and Xander have a talk on the porch, Xander
>goes back in. Buffy stays outside and the camera focuses on a young
>woman who is approached by--presumably--her boyfriend. We don't see
>his face, but his clothes and the we walks make him look like Xander.
>
>> Tayana@-->-----
>> Oh, I don't get crazy, crazy on me equals spaz
>> ~Willow~
>
>
>Caffeine fuels my body, B/X fuels my soul.
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: My ranking of BtVS eps so far
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Okay, I'll give it a shot. (Some minor spoilers....)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Excellent:
Once More With Feeling
Very Good:
Bargaining I
After Life
All the Way (Dawn may be annoying, but Michelle does a GREAT job playing
her)
Tabula Rasa
Good:
Bargaining II
Flooded
Life Serial
Doublemeat Palace (very funny, and I liked the way they set us up to think
DM Medleys are made out of people, only to have the truth be much weirder)
Dead Things (I like how the nerds are evolving from comic relief to true
villainy)
Older and Far Away
Hell's Bells
Merely Adequate:
Smashed
Wrecked
Gone (Buffy's invisible pranks were a little overdone)
As You Were
Poor:
None. I have to admit, I'm an easy grader as far as Buffy goes: one good
scene, or a handful of good lines, is enough to drag an episode out of
"poor" territory in my book.
Just realized that the episodes I don't have on tape and have only seen
once cluster towards the bottom of the poll. Hmm....
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: The age thing in regard to this season.
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In article <qnOi8.1803$Uk6.1...@weber.videotron.net>,
NightBaron <g_ber...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>I'm curious about something. I'm 23 years old, and i know that Buffy fans
>range from much younger to much older, but i was curious if the opinions
>about this season could be categorized by age group.
I doubt it. I actually agree with you about this season -- I'm 33, and I
like season 6 well enough -- but I strongly doubt that you'll find any
correlation between viewers' ages and how they feel about s6.
It's interesting that most people who have responded to this thread so far
seem to judge s6 by how similar the Scoobies' lives are to
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: In Buffyverse: vamps and demons = evil?
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In article <rVkk8.13268$pC1.2...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
Ken <kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>1) They are evil because they deliberately and repeatedly kill or harm
>people (not to mention property). They do so because they have to fill a
>craving to live. They also do so because they love abusing their power
>(enhanced strength and speed).
Most vamps also seem to enjoy terrifying, torturing and otherwise hurting
humans, in addition to feeding off them.
>
>2) While they have a craving, they don't HAVE to have use humans, or kill
>humans, or use unwilling humans. So there is an alternative. Not all vamps
>go on powertrips (not just killing humans for food, but scaring them,
>dominating them), even tho many do. Some lie low and just try to get by
>without getting noticed--and thus hunted down.
>
>3) While the overwhelming majority seem to be immoral (i.e., when given a
>choice, they deliberately choose the "evil" or more "evil" path), some seem
>to be amoral (i.e., doesn't go out of their way to do "evil", but doesn't
>shirk from it either). CAN they be moral (i.e., deliberately choose the
>"good" path)?
>
>It seems they could, by simply hunting criminals or animals. What has been
>shown in the Buffyverse that contradicts that? It seems they are "evil"
>mostly because it's so EASY to be so (i.e., vampire strength vs puny scared
>humans). Plus they have enormous peer pressure.
>
>And yet, BTVS has shown some good demons, werewolves and at least some
>not-so-bad vamps who dine on willing humans. ANGEL has shown plenty of good
>demons, such as Gru, Lorne, even Cordy is partially demon now and fights the
>good fight (like Doyle did).
>
>Maybe, just maybe, given the time, shown alternatives and encouragement
>vamps could be good? Altho having some garlic, stakes or silver blades
>nearby wouldn't hurt, just in case they ''fall off the wagon''.
>
>-- Ken from Chicago
>
>
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Broken-hearted Demon Sex (spoilers)
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In article <hASz8.12087$Ii2.1...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Spoilers
>
>
>
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>After reading the wildfeed for Entropy, the sex scene, the recriminations,
>the hurt feelings, I didn't feel too sorry for Xander or Buffy. But after
>watching Entropy, seeing first hand, how hurt and angry they were,
>well.......I still didn't feel sorry for Xander or Buffy. And do you know
>why? Well, let me tell you, it's because DEMON'S HAVE FEELINGS TOO! That's
>right. Spike very well might be an "evil soulless thing", but he's an "evil
>soulless thing" who feels the pain of rejection. And he was as clearly
y>dumped as any being possibly could be. No mistake about it. Buffy told
him
>to move on, she doesn't love him. There isn't any reason in the world why
>he shouldn't do just exactly that. Anya's situation is a little more
>complicated, but, not by much. What's interesting about Anya is that, up
>until now, we've really only seen her humanity. We had a glimpse of demon
>Anya in "The Wish" but not enough to tell us anything about what vengeance
>demons are really like. As it turns out demon Anya and human Anya are
>virtually identical. Take away the unattractive bulging veins and the
>ability to wish people into perdition, and Anyanka is simply Anya. Or
>vice-versa. Whereas, Spike and William, Angelus and Angel, etc..are really
>two very different things. Or, are they? More murky waters courtesy of the
>ME writing staff. However you want to slice the demon/human pie, I felt
>more empathy for Anya and Spike last night than I did for Buffy and Xander.
>That was a first.
>
>Spike can be so completely charming when he wants to be. I love the way he
>assured Anya that she was the only Scooby he wouldn't bite if he had the
>chance.
>
>Anya might be a very attractive demon/woman, but that hairstyle has got to
>go. Last season she was the only cast member that looked half-way decent.
>This season she could use some work.
>
>Xander got a hair-cut. A much needed improvement.
>
>Buffy is _not_ a hat person
>
>I'm glad the Key is banned from half the stores in Sunnydale. I don't think
>Buffy should be joking with her about the things she stole.
>
>Willow's outfit looked less than horrible, but, that dress hanging on the
>bedroom door has got to go.
>
>I think Tara misses being a part of the gang as much, or more, than she
>misses being with Willow.
>
>The nerd storyline was confusing and a little hard to follow, if I hadn't
>read spoilers and other viewers comments I don't think I would have had the
>slightest idea about what they were doing. Andrew is running perpetually a
>quart low. He thinks Spike is "so cool." Any takers on how long before we
>see vamp Andrew? I say early Season 7, unless, Warren kills him first.
>
>Overall, I think Entropy was a big set-up for a demon/human epiphany for the
>gang. They have more in common than any of them want to admit. And the
>line that separates good from evil is pretty darn fuzzy. If I was Buffy, I
>would pop Xander in the nose. It's none of his business who she has sex
>with and he's hardly in a place to pass judgment. Then I would turn around
>and pop Spike in the nose for kissing and telling. Anya is clearly still
>very much in love with Xander and she hit the nail on the head. He's
>running scared. I'm glad she realizes that he's the problem and it's not
>her fault. (well, until she boinked Spike on the Magic Box table, anyway) I
>don't think much will be cleared up by the end of this season, but I think
>next season will see Xander and Anya back together and a very different
>Spike on the scene. I hope ME let's him come back as a brunette. With his
>bright blue eyes it would be a very striking combination, and prepare
>everyone to accept that whatever has happened to him, he's a changed
>man/demon.
>
>
>Shannon
>
>
>
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: "Entropy", a slightly-early review (spoilerinos)
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In article <e93b592a.0205...@posting.google.com>,
Stephen Robinson <blacks...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Angel's becoming Angelus was simply moral justification for Xander's
>jealousy, as it later was in Season Three.
My view is slightly different. EVERYONE had good reason to hate Angel by.
When the good Angel came back, they all got over it, to varying degrees.
Xander, like everyone else, had very real non-jealousy reasons to hate
Angel; but his jealousy kept him from getting over it as much as the other
Scoobies did. In short jealousy was an aggravating factor, but not the
whole story. And don't forget, even Xander was willing to tolerate Angel
in the third season; his hatred only really bubbled up when something
special happened to set him off, like Angel feeding off of Buffy.
>As for Spike, they fought beside each other when Buffy was dead. Spike
>has saved Xander on more than one occasion during the course of a
>battle. I can understand simply just not liking him, but he seems to
>focus on the events of, say, "Lover's Walk," more than "The Weight of
>the World" or "Spiral." Speaking of which, I'd hope the nice scene
>Xander and Spike had in that episode would have meant that they had
>come to some sort of terms with each other. But, just like with many
>character developments, this season has completely abandoned that.
I don't know if they've really abandoned it. For example, in Spiral,
Xander and Spike start to come to terms, but it ends quickly when they
start disagreeing about what to do. In Normal Again, they fight, but then
they cooperate soon afterwards to hunt the demon that hurt Buffy. Xander
and Spike's relationship varies according to the circumstances.
There's
just not much bringing them together, and a lot
>
>>
>> Do you really believe that Anya has moved on? If she had moved on then why
>> would she be so keen to see Xander suffer - which IMO I think reflects badly
>> on Anya, as she was starting to grow as a human but when something goes
>> wrong she turns back into a demon and tries to get everybody to curse
>> Xander. I totally understand revenge but I don't think that Anya is going to
>> come out of this totally clean either - and if Anya doesn't decide herself
>> to quit the vengeance gig then she is going to end up much worse then
>> Xander.
>
>It's ironic to me that they were so concerned about girls getting the
>wrong idea with the Spike/Buffy relationship, but the Xander/Anya one
>was far worse. Anya was essentially a bad person whom Xander loved
>because she was hot. I'm sorry, but when he's damning Spike, yet
>sleeping with someone who committed horrible acts of evil for ten
>times longer than Spike (and showed very little remorse for it even
>with a soul). Worse is that Anya's humanity meant nothing to her for
>its own sake. Once Xander breaks up with her, she returns to her evil
>ways.
>
>And think about this: What if after Buffy ditched Spike, Spike ran off
>and had his chip removed and started slaughtering people. This is just
>as bad. Where can they go with Anya's character?
>
>Also, why the hell can't anyone tell that Anya is not human anymore?
>She doesn't have a soul, remember? Shouldn't Xander detect that?
>Wouldn't Spike (remember Angel's "You don't smell human.")?
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <3CD168C6...@netscape.net>,
ellenkb <elle...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Christopher Gross wrote:
>
>> In article <3CD0AFDC...@netscape.net>,
>> ellenkb <elle...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>SPOILERS THROUGH PRESENT AND FUTURE RUMORS COMMENTED ON
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
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>
>This is the debate I was trying to avoid. I know many people love xander and
>
>will defend his honor until their last breath and disagree with a lot of what
>
>I had to say, but I had to say it. I had to get it off my chest because other
>
>wise I would have just kept re-writing the letter over and over in my head
>
>until it exploded... You can ignore that if you'd like and we'll continue our
>
>conversation...
>
> >
>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>His self righteousness really gets on my nerves. The way he was
>>>disgusted with Buffy for also having sex with Spike... Who is he to
>>>judge her? You can be friends with Xander as long as you're perfect and
>>>never do anything questionable in his eyes.
>>>
>>
>> Riiigghhht.... Like the way he hated Giles after the Ripper's dark past
>> was revealed. Like the way he never forgave Buffy for running off after
>> Becoming II, or hiding Angel in season 3. Like the way he refused to have
>> anything to do with Cordelia after her long-time abuse of him and his
>> friends. Like the way he hated Willow after Wrecked. Like the way he
>> hated Anya for having been a vengeance demon. Like the way he hated Oz
>> for being a werewolf. Like the way he hates Dawn for stealing. Like he
>> hates Tara for casting the spell in Family. And so on.
>>
>
>
>Actually, I think Xander pretty much hated buffy for running away and
>let her know exactly how he felt in Dead Man's Party. He had no idea
>what she was going through and had no right to judge. Yeah, sure he
>eventually came around and forgave her after she saved his life, again
>and for the millionth time... what a great guy. I think he always hated
>Angel and never forgave him, even when Angel was a souled good guy. He
>just doesn't like the guys that Buffy likes because he's jealous and
>immature and could never see Angel as a warrior for the good, only
>competition for the girl he then had the hots for.
>
>>
>> Sounds like you're just upset that someone other than Spike is seen as the
>> good guy. I love Spike's character, but I love him for his ambiguity, not
>> because he's clearly a good guy. He's not. He helps the Scoobies a.)
>> becaue he loves Buffy and b.) because he likes to kill, and demons and
>> vamps are the only ones he can kill. After Buffy dies, he apparently
>> stays in Sunnydale because he promised Buffy to protect Dawn, NOT because
>> he cares about anyone else there. Now, do I hate Spike for his flaws?
>> No! They make him a better character. And I don't see why you have
>> Xander for his flaws (the real ones, that is, not made-up shit). They
>> make him a more interesting character than Mr. Perfect would be.
>>
>
>
>I had a whole response prepared for this but since at the end of your
>paragraph you tossed in that I'm just making up shit, I might as well
>not even bother.
>
>
>>>I really hope that spike goes to africa,
>>>gets re-souled and turned back into william and then makes his way back
>>>to sunnydale to kick xander's ass!
>>>
>>
>> If Spike ever gets re-ensouled, he should be as crippled by guilt as Angel
>> was. Far from kicking Xander's ass, he should tell him "I'm different
>> now, but you were perfectly right to hate me back in my soulless days."
>> --Chris
>
>yes, you had a right to hate me all those times I was saving your ass.
>
>ellen
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <aartmq$c...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>,
Christopher Gross <chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
>Summary:
>Expires:
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>
>In article <3CD168C6...@netscape.net>,
>ellenkb <elle...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>SPOILERS THROUGH PRESENT AND FUTURE RUMORS COMMENTED ON
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
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>>>>.
>>>>.
>>
>>
>>This is the debate I was trying to avoid. I know many people love xander
>and >will defend his honor until their last breath and disagree with a lot
>of what >I had to say, but I had to say it. I had to get it off my chest
>because other >wise I would have just kept re-writing the letter over and
>over in my head >until it exploded...
>
>Hey, I can understand the urge to vent. I felt something similar when I
>wrote my reply.
>
>>Actually, I think Xander pretty much hated buffy for running away and
>>let her know exactly how he felt in Dead Man's Party. He had no idea
>>what she was going through and had no right to judge. Yeah, sure he
>>eventually came around and forgave her after she saved his life, again
>>and for the millionth time... what a great guy.
>
>First of all, in that episode Xander clearly didn't *hate* Buffy. He was
>angry with her, but that's different. He was very happy to see her at
>first, which is hardly the way he'd act about someone he hated! The anger
>only bubbled up at the party, when everyone thought Buffy might disappear
>again. Secondly, Willow and Joyce showed the same anger towards Buffy; so
>why single Xander out? Finally, you make it sound like Xander only
>forgave Buffy because she saved his life, but I see NO evidence for this
>in the episode. What I see is the Scoobies having unresolved anger
>amongst themselves, getting into an argument, then being put in danger,
>working as a team again, and realizing that they don't want to fight each
>other. Xander, Buffy, Willow and Joyce were ALL angry, and the danger
>made them ALL forget their anger. Xander was no better or worse than the
>other three.
>
>>I think he always hated
>>Angel and never forgave him, even when Angel was a souled good guy.
>
>Xander was certainly jealous of Angel, but he also had very real practical
>reasons to hate him. The jealousy kept him from forgiving, but it wasn't
>the main source of his hatred. Note that (despite his "I hated Angel long
>before it was popular" comment) he doesn't do anything that indicates he
>really *hates* Angel until after Innocence, when they find out that he's
>Angelus again. And while his jealousy keeps him from completely forgiving
>Angel, he's willing to tolerate him in season 3. He even helps with the
>research to save Angel in Amends.
>
>>He
>>just doesn't like the guys that Buffy likes because he's jealous and
>>immature and could never see Angel as a warrior for the good, only
>>competition for the girl he then had the hots for.
>
>Ah, but what about Riley? It took a while, but Xander eventually became
>friends with Riley and even tried to help make Buffy and Riley's
>relationship work. There's more to Xander than just jealousy.
>
>>> Sounds like you're just upset that someone other than Spike is seen as the
>>> good guy. I love Spike's character, but I love him for his ambiguity, not
>>> because he's clearly a good guy. He's not. He helps the Scoobies a.)
>>> becaue he loves Buffy and b.) because he likes to kill, and demons and
>>> vamps are the only ones he can kill. After Buffy dies, he apparently
>>> stays in Sunnydale because he promised Buffy to protect Dawn, NOT because
>>> he cares about anyone else there. Now, do I hate Spike for his flaws?
>>> No! They make him a better character. And I don't see why you have
>>> Xander for his flaws (the real ones, that is, not made-up shit). They
>>> make him a more interesting character than Mr. Perfect would be.
>>
>>I had a whole response prepared for this but since at the end of your
>>paragraph you tossed in that I'm just making up shit, I might as well
>>not even bother.
>
>All right, I apologize for that crack. Making what I consider erroneous
>interpretations is NOT the same as "making up shit." I withdraw the
>"made-up shit" statement. Now, what was your response?
>
>>> If Spike ever gets re-ensouled, he should be as crippled by guilt as Angel
>>> was. Far from kicking Xander's ass, he should tell him "I'm different
>>> now, but you were perfectly right to hate me back in my soulless days."
>>> --Chris
>>
>>yes, you had a right to hate me all those times I was saving your ass.
>
>More like "Yes, you were right to hate me all that time when I was a
>vicious monster who tried to kill you and the people dearest to you
>numerous times; and also during the time when I had, quite against my
>will, lost the ability to kill humans, but still mocked and needled and
>mentally tormented you whenever I got the chance; and furthermore, the
>times (not really as numerous as some people think) when I helped save
>your ass don't merit enough gratitude to counterbalance your justified
>hatred, since these actions were motivated mainly by a selfish desire to
>get in good with the woman I lusted after, plus my personal pleasure in
>the act of killing, even if it was only killing vampires and demons." Of
>course, that would be an awful long speech for a TV show.
>
>
>--Chris
>
>--
>______________________________________________________________________
>Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
>chr...@gwu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <3CD1A2F7...@mindspring.com>,
Guava Baby <guav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Murderer?!?! Because he wanted to destroy Spike? I think we're forgeting
>> that Spike isn't a person, he's a thing. If you're going to grant vampires
>> personhood and a right to life then we'll need to rename the show "Buffy,
>> the Serial Killer" because she's slaughtered hundreds.
>
>Yes, but Spike is defenseless and *can't* physically hurt humans (other than
>Buffy). I think this raises him to a certain level of personhood.
It makes killing him unnecessary, provided you trust the Initiative's
technology to work, and y
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <whfA8.2563$8n2.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
Volin <Vo...@kaltara.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Likewise, Spike even when he was a villain I always thought that he had a
>certain honour, and while he tried to talk the talk I never thought he was
>anywhere near as evil as Angelus (or the Master).
Spike definitely seems to be an unusual personality for a vamp. Aside
from needing the blood, all vamps enjoy human suffering in itself.
However, the degree varies a great deal. Angelus enjoyed tormenting and
killing humans the most. Spike enjoyed it too, but he enjoyed other
things -- ty
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: "Entropy", a slightly-early review (spoilerinos)
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In article <1ada1b70.02050...@posting.google.com>,
Dan Armato <daniel...@aol.com> wrote:
>"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wHHz8.152451$in3.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>...
>> "Richard Edwards" <ri...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:3CCF42C6...@insight.rr.com...
>> > Al Smith wrote:
>> > <snip opinion>
>> >
>> > Wow. I couldn't disagree with your opinion regarding Xander more. I
>> > was even a little disgusted by it. Sure, Xander screwed up bad and did
>> > something horrible to Anya, but he's still a good person. Spike's the
>> > asshole here with his total disregard with how he's going to hurt
>> > Xander, Buffy, AND Anya (she hasn't moved, are you blind?), and Anya's
>> > just managed to screw up as bad (if not worse, because her motivations
>> > were much less pure) as Xander.
>> >
>> > I would have cheered if Xander had killed Spike. Barring that, I find
>> > his reaction completely satisfactory. Massive, wrenching hurt does that
>> > kind of thing to people.
>
>That is a scary POV, if you are justifying attempter murder because
>your ex-lover is with somebody else. OJ Simpson much?
>
>> >
>> > Please note, I'm not saying that killing Spike would be _right_. I'm
>> > not making that strong of a statement.
>> >
>> > Later,
>> > Richard
>> >
>> > (By the way, your wrong as to when Dawn figured out about Buffy and
>> > Xander. It was before the confrontation.)
>>
>> When I saw Xander heading down the street with that axe, I was just beyond
>> disgusted. He crushes and humiliates his fiance, and he thinks he has the
>> right to go kill Spike? Geez, did Anya get drunk and turn to get-even sex,
>> or not-feel-so-lonely sex, or whatever it was, with Spike, because Xander
>> was such a great guy? Look, Xander is not Anya's husband, fiance, or
>> boyfriend, and he has NO RIGHT to try to kill Spike! Anya is free to do as
>> she pleases, and whose fault is that? XANDER'S!! He created that
>> situation -- he created a broken, vulnerable Anya. Now, Anya is responsible
>> for her decision to sleep with Spike -- but Xander has no right to say
>> anything, or do anything about it. Who does he think he is -- Spike can't
>> fight back, and Xander knows it! What a punk Xander is. I am not saying
>> what Spike and Anya did was right -- but it was a surprisingly human choice
>> for a vampire and a demon. Buffy made it quite clear to Spike that he
>> should move on -- how could she possibly be surprised that he would? She
>> TOLD him to! What -- was he supposed to mope around forever after a woman
>> who told him she didn't love him? Please. I think Xander going to kill
>> Spike is MUCH worse than Spike having sex with Anya. Spike and Anya are
>> single, thanks to their callous, insensitive exes. Xander may still care
>> about Anya, love Anya, but he has to accept that his actions may have ended
>> any chance they had. That's reality. But Xander going after Spike with an
>> axe, a Spike who can't fight back? When Xander and Anya are no longer
>> together (thanks to him) and he therefore has not been betrayed (although he
>> may feel that way -- I am sure Anya knows how it feels), how dare he get the
>> idea that he can kill Spike? Xander is the selfish, bad, EVIL one here,
>> imho.
>
>I'm solidly in the Nimue camp here. I knew people would defend Xander
>on this board (people will always find a way to justify the most over
>the top behavior, no matter what), but I still shake my head in wonder
>when I see it.
>
>Xander has always had a "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. A
>big character flaw is that he cannot see things from others points of
>view. He has hardly ever walked in (or attempted to even try on)
>another's shoes. He sees things his way and if something does not fit
>into his world (like Buffy and Spike boinkage), he condemns everybody
>as wacko and immoral and bad and wrong and disgusting, when it is none
>of his beeswax. He is NOT the arbiter of morality.
>
>Look at Dead Man's Party----he never even paused to consider Buffy's
>feelings. Then there is the whole "Xander's lie" thing, but that need
>not be rehashed. He justs gets a big happy when he believes he has the
>"moral high ground" and goes too far. I didn't like his little speech
>to Buffy about how great Riley was, either. And, as we all know, he
>has always had a big honkin' inferiority complex. That is why is is
>the class clown. It hides his insecurities. It can be cute and funny
>and all, but he can go way overboard at times, especially when coupled
>with the "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. He was jealous of
>Angel and is now jealous of Spike. Spike "gets the chicks" as it were.
>Xander didn't, now he did, but Spike one-upped him again. Then there
>is the whole deep seeded, repressed Buffy lust....A lot of things
>bubbled to the surface. But, violence is no way to fight your own
>inner demons.
>
>Of course, Xander has had his moments. His is very likable in general,
>and his foppishness (sp?) makes you overlook some big flaws. He does
>care about his friends and has shown himself to be very brave (even
>when misguided in some cases) when the chips are down. I think we all
>identified with the early "never gets the girl" high school Xander
>complex. I can even see his POV, somewhat, when it comes to calling
>off the wedding (I've never really been a huge Anya fan either, so
>maybe that plays into it a bit)---it was an awful, hurtful thing that
>he did---but I can sort of see why he did what he did. His timing was
>very bad (understatement of the year here!) and he really jumped into
>the whole proposal thing too fast and without thinking. I'll give him
>some lattitude here...he is really still a kid in many respects.
>BUT....he went way over the line in Entropy. The Dr. Hyde came out,
>big time. Xander just expected Anya to forgive him and everything to
>be "Xander-world right" again. Well, big news here for you
>Xand....Anya has feelings too. She fully had the right not to forgive
>him. Xander has to accept the blame himself, not push it off on Spike
>or Anya or what he sees as everybody else's "disgusting" behavior. It
>is an internal demon he should kill, not a (fully innocent in this
>case) Spike.
>Funny that he could not see that. Kind of sad really. Xander got in
>over his head, screwed up, and didn't want to face the consequences.
>Not a good moment for Xander.
>
>Anya and Spike. First, Spike is not obligated to do what is in the
>best interest of the Xander/Anya relationship. He is a third party
>and, in no way, has to answer to Xander for his actions. This is
>especially true since Xander has always treated Spike like crap, even
>when Spike was clearly fighting on the good side. ANYA AND XANDER WERE
>BROKEN UP at the time. I don't know if Ross and Rachel were "on a
>break", but Buffy made it very clear to Spike that, at least for now,
>it was over---and Anya made it quite clear to Xander that they were
>not an item. Clearly, there was no reason to think otherwise,
>especially from the POV of Anya and Spike. Spike didn't plan it at
>all. It just felt right at the moment. So, the table top humping
>wasn't the most healthy thing in the world for the two of them.
>Neither is drinking a, loaded with fat(!), double mocha coconut
>Frappacino from Starbucks (mmmmmmmmmm). But, the act, in itself wasn't
>evil. You had 2 unattached parties being orgasm buddies. And, since
>when does a quick fling in the sack (er, on the table) even belong on
>the same playing field as attempted murder, in the immorality scale?
>Or beating up a helpless person, for that matter? Some sense of scale,
>please!
>
>I can see Xander being depressed. I can see him being angry at himself
>(seems he still hasn't grasped the seriousness of leving somebody at
>the altar). Why is he angry at Spike for this. I guess it is human
>nature to deflect the guilt from himself to the competition (Spike)
>because he could not accept that he caused all of this. So, he
>sublimates his anger. Fine, sulk all you want. I feel bad for you that
>you screwed up. But then, he goes completely OJ and tries to KILL (as
>in murder in cold blood) Spike. I can understand the hurt and
>misdirected initial anger, but trying to kill somebody.....? What if
>it wasn't Spike....what if it had been some guy Anya picked up in a
>bar. Should he die because Anya's ex is all jealous (poor baby). Well,
>too bad. You abandoned Anya, now she doesn't come running back to you
>and you blame her?
>
>Whether you like it or not, Buffy is the one who is the slayer. If she
>sees Spike as a creature that is not evil and considers him not
>stakable, then Xander should respect that. She has included Spike,
>somewhat, in the group and sees him as a sentient being. He HAS done a
>lot for the group. Xander should respect Spike's right to exist, even
>if only as a common decency for his friend Buffy, at the very least.
>Would he like it if Buffy wanted to kill Anya (who has, like Spike,
>quite a shaded past herself, you know). Does Buffy treat Anya like
>crap? No. Why? Well, for one, she has some tact and courtesy. Plus,
>she respects Xander and is willing to accept his friend into the
>group, regardless of the trouble she has caused.
>
>And finally, where does Xander get off (bathroom,playboy this week, I
>guess) but seriously, where does he get off passing judgement on
>Buffy? I mean, really, what gives? He walks away from the entire group
>in disgust? Huh?
>
>So, yes I like the "butt-monkey Xander" who makes the dumb remarks yet
>bravely stands with his friends in battle. I love the Xander who
>propped up Buffy's faith in herself. I like the Soldier guy in the
>Halloween episode. I like the Xander who was honestly blind to
>Willow's high school crush. I like the Xander that saved Buffy in her
>encounter with The Master. The unsung hero Xander. The lovable loser
>who never gets the girl, yet never gives up trying, and makes a fool
>out of himself being ever dorky and awkward. The everyman's hero. I
>like that Xander. That is the Xander I think of when somebody says
>"Xander".
>
>
>I loathe the Mr. Hyde Moralist Xander who thinks only his way is best.
>This dark side has come out in the past and there are times when I
>wanted to really kick his ass myself.
>
>I once coined the term Xander's "Beer Muscles of Moral Indignation" or
>something similiar, a while ago when he showed his ugly Mr. Hyde face
>in Dead Man's Party (which I try to block from my mind because I
>really want to like Xander). What I mean by this is that when Xander
>thinks he is right, he thinks he is invincible. He talks the big talk,
>so to speak and his mouth writes checks his body just can't cash (ode
>to all those Top Gun fans!) This was in reference to Dead Man's Party.
>He went off on Buffy with a vengeance.....and acted like Mr. Tough
>guy.
>
> This side came out in full force in Entropy. The Xander we think we
>know is truly devolving into a state of chaos, and to his shame, it is
>his fault, in toto. Right now, it is very hard to ignore his complete
>and utter "assholishness". If the theme is still "Oh Grow Up", I think
>Xander has taken some major steps backward this season.
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: "Entropy", a slightly-early review (spoilerinos)
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In article <1ada1b70.02050...@posting.google.com>,
Dan Armato <daniel...@aol.com> wrote:
>"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wHHz8.152451$in3.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>...
>> "Richard Edwards" <ri...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:3CCF42C6...@insight.rr.com...
>> > Al Smith wrote:
>> > <snip opinion>
>> >
>> > Wow. I couldn't disagree with your opinion regarding Xander more. I
>> > was even a little disgusted by it. Sure, Xander screwed up bad and did
>> > something horrible to Anya, but he's still a good person. Spike's the
>> > asshole here with his total disregard with how he's going to hurt
>> > Xander, Buffy, AND Anya (she hasn't moved, are you blind?), and Anya's
>> > just managed to screw up as bad (if not worse, because her motivations
>> > were much less pure) as Xander.
>> >
>> > I would have cheered if Xander had killed Spike. Barring that, I find
>> > his reaction completely satisfactory. Massive, wrenching hurt does that
>> > kind of thing to people.
>
>That is a scary POV, if you are justifying attempter murder because
>your ex-lover is with somebody else. OJ Simpson much?
>
>> >
>> > Please note, I'm not saying that killing Spike would be _right_. I'm
>> > not making that strong of a statement.
>> >
>> > Later,
>> > Richard
>> >
>> > (By the way, your wrong as to when Dawn figured out about Buffy and
>> > Xander. It was before the confrontation.)
>>
>> When I saw Xander heading down the street with that axe, I was just beyond
>> disgusted. He crushes and humiliates his fiance, and he thinks he has the
>> right to go kill Spike? Geez, did Anya get drunk and turn to get-even sex,
>> or not-feel-so-lonely sex, or whatever it was, with Spike, because Xander
>> was such a great guy? Look, Xander is not Anya's husband, fiance, or
>> boyfriend, and he has NO RIGHT to try to kill Spike! Anya is free to do as
>> she pleases, and whose fault is that? XANDER'S!! He created that
>> situation -- he created a broken, vulnerable Anya. Now, Anya is responsible
>> for her decision to sleep with Spike -- but Xander has no right to say
>> anything, or do anything about it. Who does he think he is -- Spike can't
>> fight back, and Xander knows it! What a punk Xander is. I am not saying
>> what Spike and Anya did was right -- but it was a surprisingly human choice
>> for a vampire and a demon. Buffy made it quite clear to Spike that he
>> should move on -- how could she possibly be surprised that he would? She
>> TOLD him to! What -- was he supposed to mope around forever after a woman
>> who told him she didn't love him? Please. I think Xander going to kill
>> Spike is MUCH worse than Spike having sex with Anya. Spike and Anya are
>> single, thanks to their callous, insensitive exes. Xander may still care
>> about Anya, love Anya, but he has to accept that his actions may have ended
>> any chance they had. That's reality. But Xander going after Spike with an
>> axe, a Spike who can't fight back? When Xander and Anya are no longer
>> together (thanks to him) and he therefore has not been betrayed (although he
>> may feel that way -- I am sure Anya knows how it feels), how dare he get the
>> idea that he can kill Spike? Xander is the selfish, bad, EVIL one here,
>> imho.
>
>I'm solidly in the Nimue camp here. I knew people would defend Xander
>on this board (people will always find a way to justify the most over
>the top behavior, no matter what), but I still shake my head in wonder
>when I see it.
>
>Xander has always had a "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. A
>big character flaw is that he cannot see things from others points of
>view. He has hardly ever walked in (or attempted to even try on)
>another's shoes. He sees things his way and if something does not fit
>into his world (like Buffy and Spike boinkage), he condemns everybody
>as wacko and immoral and bad and wrong and disgusting, when it is none
>of his beeswax. He is NOT the arbiter of morality.
>
>Look at Dead Man's Party----he never even paused to consider Buffy's
>feelings. Then there is the whole "Xander's lie" thing, but that need
>not be rehashed. He justs gets a big happy when he believes he has the
>"moral high ground" and goes too far. I didn't like his little speech
>to Buffy about how great Riley was, either. And, as we all know, he
>has always had a big honkin' inferiority complex. That is why is is
>the class clown. It hides his insecurities. It can be cute and funny
>and all, but he can go way overboard at times, especially when coupled
>with the "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. He was jealous of
>Angel and is now jealous of Spike. Spike "gets the chicks" as it were.
>Xander didn't, now he did, but Spike one-upped him again. Then there
>is the whole deep seeded, repressed Buffy lust....A lot of things
>bubbled to the surface. But, violence is no way to fight your own
>inner demons.
>
>Of course, Xander has had his moments. His is very likable in general,
>and his foppishness (sp?) makes you overlook some big flaws. He does
>care about his friends and has shown himself to be very brave (even
>when misguided in some cases) when the chips are down. I think we all
>identified with the early "never gets the girl" high school Xander
>complex. I can even see his POV, somewhat, when it comes to calling
>off the wedding (I've never really been a huge Anya fan either, so
>maybe that plays into it a bit)---it was an awful, hurtful thing that
>he did---but I can sort of see why he did what he did. His timing was
>very bad (understatement of the year here!) and he really jumped into
>the whole proposal thing too fast and without thinking. I'll give him
>some lattitude here...he is really still a kid in many respects.
>BUT....he went way over the line in Entropy. The Dr. Hyde came out,
>big time. Xander just expected Anya to forgive him and everything to
>be "Xander-world right" again. Well, big news here for you
>Xand....Anya has feelings too. She fully had the right not to forgive
>him. Xander has to accept the blame himself, not push it off on Spike
>or Anya or what he sees as everybody else's "disgusting" behavior. It
>is an internal demon he should kill, not a (fully innocent in this
>case) Spike.
>Funny that he could not see that. Kind of sad really. Xander got in
>over his head, screwed up, and didn't want to face the consequences.
>Not a good moment for Xander.
>
>Anya and Spike. First, Spike is not obligated to do what is in the
>best interest of the Xander/Anya relationship. He is a third party
>and, in no way, has to answer to Xander for his actions. This is
>especially true since Xander has always treated Spike like crap, even
>when Spike was clearly fighting on the good side. ANYA AND XANDER WERE
>BROKEN UP at the time. I don't know if Ross and Rachel were "on a
>break", but Buffy made it very clear to Spike that, at least for now,
>it was over---and Anya made it quite clear to Xander that they were
>not an item. Clearly, there was no reason to think otherwise,
>especially from the POV of Anya and Spike. Spike didn't plan it at
>all. It just felt right at the moment. So, the table top humping
>wasn't the most healthy thing in the world for the two of them.
>Neither is drinking a, loaded with fat(!), double mocha coconut
>Frappacino from Starbucks (mmmmmmmmmm). But, the act, in itself wasn't
>evil. You had 2 unattached parties being orgasm buddies. And, since
>when does a quick fling in the sack (er, on the table) even belong on
>the same playing field as attempted murder, in the immorality scale?
>Or beating up a helpless person, for that matter? Some sense of scale,
>please!
>
>I can see Xander being depressed. I can see him being angry at himself
>(seems he still hasn't grasped the seriousness of leving somebody at
>the altar). Why is he angry at Spike for this. I guess it is human
>nature to deflect the guilt from himself to the competition (Spike)
>because he could not accept that he caused all of this. So, he
>sublimates his anger. Fine, sulk all you want. I feel bad for you that
>you screwed up. But then, he goes completely OJ and tries to KILL (as
>in murder in cold blood) Spike. I can understand the hurt and
>misdirected initial anger, but trying to kill somebody.....? What if
>it wasn't Spike....what if it had been some guy Anya picked up in a
>bar. Should he die because Anya's ex is all jealous (poor baby). Well,
>too bad. You abandoned Anya, now she doesn't come running back to you
>and you blame her?
>
>Whether you like it or not, Buffy is the one who is the slayer. If she
>sees Spike as a creature that is not evil and considers him not
>stakable, then Xander should respect that. She has included Spike,
>somewhat, in the group and sees him as a sentient being. He HAS done a
>lot for the group. Xander should respect Spike's right to exist, even
>if only as a common decency for his friend Buffy, at the very least.
>Would he like it if Buffy wanted to kill Anya (who has, like Spike,
>quite a shaded past herself, you know). Does Buffy treat Anya like
>crap? No. Why? Well, for one, she has some tact and courtesy. Plus,
>she respects Xander and is willing to accept his friend into the
>group, regardless of the trouble she has caused.
>
>And finally, where does Xander get off (bathroom,playboy this week, I
>guess) but seriously, where does he get off passing judgement on
>Buffy? I mean, really, what gives? He walks away from the entire group
>in disgust? Huh?
>
>So, yes I like the "butt-monkey Xander" who makes the dumb remarks yet
>bravely stands with his friends in battle. I love the Xander who
>propped up Buffy's faith in herself. I like the Soldier guy in the
>Halloween episode. I like the Xander who was honestly blind to
>Willow's high school crush. I like the Xander that saved Buffy in her
>encounter with The Master. The unsung hero Xander. The lovable loser
>who never gets the girl, yet never gives up trying, and makes a fool
>out of himself being ever dorky and awkward. The everyman's hero. I
>like that Xander. That is the Xander I think of when somebody says
>"Xander".
>
>
>I loathe the Mr. Hyde Moralist Xander who thinks only his way is best.
>This dark side has come out in the past and there are times when I
>wanted to really kick his ass myself.
>
>I once coined the term Xander's "Beer Muscles of Moral Indignation" or
>something similiar, a while ago when he showed his ugly Mr. Hyde face
>in Dead Man's Party (which I try to block from my mind because I
>really want to like Xander). What I mean by this is that when Xander
>thinks he is right, he thinks he is invincible. He talks the big talk,
>so to speak and his mouth writes checks his body just can't cash (ode
>to all those Top Gun fans!) This was in reference to Dead Man's Party.
>He went off on Buffy with a vengeance.....and acted like Mr. Tough
>guy.
>
> This side came out in full force in Entropy. The Xander we think we
>know is truly devolving into a state of chaos, and to his shame, it is
>his fault, in toto. Right now, it is very hard to ignore his complete
>and utter "assholishness". If the theme is still "Oh Grow Up", I think
>Xander has taken some major steps backward this season.
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <aaugcr$3pc$1...@news3.bu.edu>,
Peter Meilinger <mell...@bu.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Gross <chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>: In article <75f34eb.02050...@posting.google.com>,
>: MLGM <mlgm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>:>
>:>No, most of don't like Xander because he's a racist and sexist creep.
Just in case there's any confusion, those were MLGM's words, not mine.
>
>I'd love to hear your argument for why Xander's a racist. If you
>mean because he hates all vampires, don't forget Buffy. Xander
>may hate them, but she's the one who does her best to kill damned
>near every one of them she comes across. Which is worse?
>
>There have been few enough non-white humans on the show that
>I really don't see where you're coming from there.
>
>:>But emotionally he has
>:>been incrediably abusive to women from day one.
>
>: I'd be interested in seeing some specific examples to back up these
>: assertions.
>
>You can make a case for emotionally insensitive easily enough, I
>think. At least in regards to Anya - the way he treated her a
>lot of the time always bugged the hell out of me. I don't think
>it was abusive by any means, but it also wasn't nice. It certainly
>wasn't "incredibly abusive."
>
>And I can't think of anyone else he's been abusive towards. He
>was clueless about Willow's crush, so he hurt her feelings
>more than once. Not deliberately, though. He traded barbs
>with Cordelia, but it's not like she was anything even
>resembling an innocent victim there. For one thing, she
>gave as good as she got. And if you want to bring in the
>Lover's Walk fiasco, then Willow's just as culpable. He's
>yelled at Buffy more than once, but abuse isn't what I'd
>call any of that. Just good old fashioned knock down drag
>out screaming matches, really.
>
>Xander's been physically abusive towards Spike on more
>than one occasion. But so has Buffy, and she's hit Spike
>without cause many more times than Xander has.
>
>Pete
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Xander is a big fat idiot
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In article <3cd7e...@goliath.newsgroups.com>,
Julian Cook <jul...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>You could always learn how to write English first.
Do you mean James? His post sounded like good English to me! He even got
"bated breath" right, when so many people write "baited breath." That
always makes me think of people with worms, minnows and other fisherman's
bait stuffed in their cheeks....
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Plot holes in last episode
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In article <3cd94e72...@news.earthlink.net>,
mad...@somewhere.com <mad...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
>Second, why was johnothin so upset to try and kill buffy. It is not
>like Buffy hasn't foiled his plans before. Why was this time so
>special.
Jonathan didn't try to kill Buffy; he jumped her to have the chance to
whisper the secret to defeating Warren t
>
>Also was this the first time Tara had her name in the opening credits.
>Were the producers just screwing with us
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: BtVS officially sucks now ("Seeing Red" spoilers)
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Certainly! I don't think it was implausible or anything. In fact, I
think it's more believable this way than if he had aimed carefully. Same
thing with his shooting speed.
>It had to be the second or third. After the first shot Buffy turned and
>pushed Xander out of the way. You can't see that without slow motion.
At normal speed, you just catch a glimpse of Xander falling, and you're
not sure if he was pushed or shot. I'm sure that was deliberate. When I
first saw it, for a split second I thought, "Holy shit, *Xander* is the
one who gets killed!"
>I think you misunderstood what I meant in an earlier post. I don't think
>that was the first time Warren fired a gun, and I thought his aim was
>pretty good under the circumstances. Much better than I could do.
>That's what makes his two final wild shots so hard to understand. He
>should have either finished the job, or just turned to run away.
Oh, in that case, I *did* misunderstand you. Sorry about that! I'll try
not to make it a habit. ;) But I don't find those wild parting shots
hard to understand. They can be attributed to Warren being caught up in
the excitement, if nothing else.
>The shooting scene doesn't bother me as much as the fact that neither
>Tara or Willow reacted to the sound of the gunfire. At the very least,
>Tara's head should have turned toward the direction of the sound. That
>would be and instinctive reaction.
I agree with you there. However, I can fan-wank it away: if Tara didn't
recognize the sounds as gunshots, in her mind the noise might not have
seemed threatening, so it couldn't divert her attention from whatever
Willow was saying. At any rate, it doesn't bother me enough to spoil the
scene.
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: BtVS officially sucks now ("Seeing Red" spoilers)
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Newsgroups: gwu.general
Subject: Re: all your base are belong to us ?
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In article <t6tv6.128$Rf7...@grover.nit.gwu.edu>,
Jeffrey Boulier <jeff...@gwu.edu> wrote:
>I'm assuming that the above phrase came from a real Japanese video game
>programmer with a bit less English than he thought. Am I right? Which game
>is it from?
I believe it's from the Sega Genesis game Zero Wing (or Wing Zero?). A
friend forwarded this to me:
<http://www.imsa.edu/~dank/AYB2.swf>
You'll need the Flash plugin.
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Xander: Opinions?(HB SPOILERS of course)
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In article <5b424975.02030...@posting.google.com>,
Jarrod Harmier <har...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[some spoilers for old episodes]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
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>> > > >
>> > 3) And if you think Buffy has never thought of Xander as possibly
>> > being more then a friend, you haven't seen enough episodes.
>>
>> Please refresh our memories...besides Beauty and the Beast.Really, cuz your
>> numbers 1 and 2...I like those.
>
>Sure thing.
>
>There are many subtle and not-so-subtle Buffy/Xander moments, both
>happy and not-so-happy.
I agree with your point, but not most of your examples. There are plenty
of scenes where we see Xander loves Buffy as more than a friend, but
only a few where Buffy feels that way about Xander.
>"Prophecy Girl": Contains one of the most heartbreaking Buffy/Xander
>moments in the entire series. However, it also contains one of the
>most inspiring Buffy/Xander moments of all the episodes at this time.
I think I know which scenes you're referring to. IMO both are cases of
Buffy thinking "I love Xander as a friend, but not romantically." Xander,
of course, feels differently, but we're focusing on how B feels about X
here.
>"Inca Mummy Girl": Just before Xander is about to take Ampata to the
>dance/party, Buffy tells him that he looks nice. When they finally
>leave, Buffy looks out the door with a wistful look on her face.
Here I think she felt wistful because she wished she was falling in love
and going to the dance, not because she wanted Xander specifically.
> In
>the very last scene, Buffy and Xander have a conversation that ends
>with them talking about him brining her back to life in "Prophecy
>Girl" and they share a look that lasts a little too long to be called
>"just friendly".
This one I definitely agree with.
>"Phases": The arm punch scene. You'll know it when you see it. It's
>so cute.
Definitely cute, but it showed X's feelings about B, not B's about X.
> The fight scene in the mortuary and the hug and the look
>Buffy and Xander share because of it.
I agree about this one too.
>Is it just me, but is "Buffy"
>the only series that can make a hug after a fight in a mortuary
>classify as an incredibly romantic moment?
It's not just you!
>"Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered": The scene with Buffy and the
>raincoat and what Xander DOESN'T DO and why he doesn't do it. The
>scene where Buffy and Xander talk about what he didn't do.
The way I see it, Buffy was definitely impressed by the way Xander "comes
through," but there was no sign she was thinking of him as a potential
love interest for herself. It's another "I love him as a friend" scene.
>"Killed By Death": The classic "white knight" scene between Angelus
>and Xander. (This scene still gives me chills.) The "watching her
>back" scene". In this Cordelia, accuses Xander of checking out
>Buffy's butt using "watching her back" as euphemism. (This is
>important since it connects to a later episode.)
These are great scenes, but again, they only show X's feelings about B,
not B's about X.
>"Go Fish": The Speedo scene where Xander says, "I'm undercover."
>Buffy smirks and says, "You're not under much."
She was looking, but I don't see her wanting to touch.
>"Becoming" part II: In the beginning of the episode, when the police
>are trying to make her leave, Buffy sees Xander unconscious in the
>stacks and says, "Wait! Just see if he's okay! Please!" The hug in
>the hallway of the hospital.
These scenes definitely show that Buffy loves Xander, but they don't
have anything in them that says "love as possible lover" as opposed to
"love as dear friend."
> Note: Just in case anyone wants to use the "lie" to
>deflate any hopes for B/X, Joss has already stated that Xander lied to
>protect Buffy.
A bit off topic, but I agree with you about the whole "lie" issue. I'm
new to this NG, but I've seen Xander get bashed for it on various web
pages. IMO, jealousy was a small part of Xander's motivation for
lying; desire to protect Buffy was a much bigger part. (After all, the
last attempt at restoring Angel's soul, which ended with Kendra dead and
Willow near death, was still fresh in his mind.) Also, I don't think the
lie made any practical difference. Either way, she couldn't have stopped
Angel from finishing the ritual, so she would still have had to push him
through the gate to hell. Note that Buffy never seems to resent Xander
for his lie.
>"Bad Girls": The conversation scene between Faith and Buffy about
>Xander. Buffy says, "Thanks for the poetry. And, no. I love Xander.
>I just don't...*love* Xander. Besides, I think it ruins friendship
>to do that stuff." Faith replies, "You think too much." (This
>suggests that Buffy's at least though about Xander in that fashion.)
I half-agree here. It suggests Buffy has *thought* about it, but it also
suggests that she decided no.
>"Earshot": Buffy overhears Xander's "naked Buffy" thoughts in the
>library, confronts him, and he leaps out his seat and quickly exits.
>Buffy's face has a slight smile showing that she wasn't really hurt by
>his thoughts but amused by them and his reaction to her knowing about
>his thoughts. Later in the episode, he asks if she can still read his
>thoughts. She shakes her head. "Just when I wasn't thinking about
>sex." He cares about what Buffy thinks of him.
Still another case where
>
>"Graduation": The touching scene between Buffy and Xander after she
>has decided to kill Faith. Xander says, "I don't want to lose you."
>"I won't get hurt." "That's not what I mean." The two "key guy"
>scenes. Okay, they're not technically Buffy/Xander scenes, but in the
>first scene when Xander realizes he's become Buffy's "key guy" he gets
>all excited and then faces "the mind numbing fear" with the relative
>calm he used at the ends of "The Zeppo". The second "key guy" scene
>highlights his rivalry with Angel and the fact that Buffy is starting
>to stop viewing Angel as her "key guy".
>
>"The Freshman": When Buffy sees Xander for the first time, she jumps
>into his arms. Possibly the scene where Xander infers that he was a
>male stripper and Buffy has look of amusement...mixed with something
>else. (She's probably remembering how he looked in a Speedo.) The
>"You're my hero" speech.
>
>"Living Conditions": The scene where Buffy meets Parker (a.k.a
>Poop-head, a.k.a Id boy). Why does this classify as a Buffy/Xander
>moment? First, Parker is an inferior-to-the-original Xander clone
>based on his hair, smile, and his his Xander-lite humor. Except
>Parker is a total jerk. (They just don't get to that until the next
>episode.) Second, in this scene, Parker says, "I'll watch your
>back." When Buffy turns and enters the cafeteria, Parker tilts his
>head so that his eyes have a good view of where her posterior would
>be. (Our view of Buffy is blocked by the wall.) This is where the
>"watching her back" scene from "Killed By Death" is important. I
>think the writers were trying to make a subtle connection between
>Parker and Xander and suggest that Buffy fell for Parker because he
>had certain physical similarities to Xander. The original shooting
>script didn't make any specific physical description of Parker
>excepted that he was older and handsome. Also, the original script
>didn't have the "I'll watch your back" line. Also, Parker dresses a
>lot like hyena-Xander starts to dress in "The Pack".
>
>"Fear, Itself": When Buffy sees Xander in his costume she says, "Like
>the tux Xand." There's something about her tone of voice.
>
>"Beer Bad": The scene in the bar when Xander is trying to talk to
>Buffy after she sees Parker with another young woman. The "Boy smells
>nice" scene.
>
>"The Initiative": The scene where Xander goes to the party to get
>Buffy and they leave hand in hand. The scene where Xander indicates
>he's jealous of Riley. (He never comes out and says it, of course.)
>The conversation they have somewhat mirrors a conversation they had in
>"Teacher's Pet" where Xander brought up the subject of Angel.
>
>"Restless": (Possibly) The scene where Buffy calls him "big brother"
>and his face gives off a pained expression as he asks, "Brother?" My
>interpretation is that Buffy was not tallking about loving Xander like
>a brother but acknowledging his role as her "white knight" and
>possibly his feelings for her. (You really have to watch "Killed by
>Death".) Xander's dream seems to be ruled by his insecurities which
>don't allow him to hear what Buffy is really saying and don't allow
>him to understand what Giles and Anya is saying. (I'm fairly certain
>the enjoining spell allowed Xander's insecurities to utitlize Giles'
>knowledge of languages to mask what Giles and Anya were saying to him
>when they started speaking French.)
>
>"Buffy vs. Dracula": Even when under the thrall of Dracula, Xander
>asks if it's okay if he takes her to Dracula. He doesn't try to force
>her. Hmm.
>
>"The Replacement": The scene where Xander continually shields Buffy
>from the blast, until he actually gets hit. The version I saw on FX
>cut some of it. Good thing I taped it off of the WB when it was
>originally broadcast.
>
>"I Was Made to Love You": A shot of her hugging "puffy Xander" and her
>contented moans and sighs at doing so. A piece of dialogue that
>suggests that Xander still has feelings for Buffy. The scene where
>April apologizes to Buffy about hurting her and says that Buffy's
>boyfriend could take care of her. Xander is the first guy to start
>moving. Ben comes in from the side and he doesn't seem to walk as
>fast as Xander does. At the end, Buffy says she doesn't need to be in
>a relationship right now and says she needs to be alone with Buffy.
>Xander responds by saying, "Well, she's a pretty cool person to be
>alone with."
>
>"Spiral": The scene outside of the gas station where Buffy and Xander
>meet the Knights for an exchange. This shows that his "key guy"
>status that he gained in "Graduation" is not only intact but has been
>strengthened. This scene also shows the level of trust that they have
>built over the years. A good relationship needs trust.
>
>"All the Way": After Buffy and Xander have a talk on the porch, Xander
>goes back in. Buffy stays outside and the camera focuses on a young
>woman who is approached by--presumably--her boyfriend. We don't see
>his face, but his clothes and the we walks make him look like Xander.
>
>> Tayana@-->-----
>> Oh, I don't get crazy, crazy on me equals spaz
>> ~Willow~
>
>
>Caffeine fuels my body, B/X fuels my soul.
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: My ranking of BtVS eps so far
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Okay, I'll give it a shot. (Some minor spoilers....)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Excellent:
Once More With Feeling
Very Good:
Bargaining I
After Life
All the Way (Dawn may be annoying, but Michelle does a GREAT job playing
her)
Tabula Rasa
Good:
Bargaining II
Flooded
Life Serial
Doublemeat Palace (very funny, and I liked the way they set us up to think
DM Medleys are made out of people, only to have the truth be much weirder)
Dead Things (I like how the nerds are evolving from comic relief to true
villainy)
Older and Far Away
Hell's Bells
Merely Adequate:
Smashed
Wrecked
Gone (Buffy's invisible pranks were a little overdone)
As You Were
Poor:
None. I have to admit, I'm an easy grader as far as Buffy goes: one good
scene, or a handful of good lines, is enough to drag an episode out of
"poor" territory in my book.
Just realized that the episodes I don't have on tape and have only seen
once cluster towards the bottom of the poll. Hmm....
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: The age thing in regard to this season.
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In article <qnOi8.1803$Uk6.1...@weber.videotron.net>,
NightBaron <g_ber...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>I'm curious about something. I'm 23 years old, and i know that Buffy fans
>range from much younger to much older, but i was curious if the opinions
>about this season could be categorized by age group.
I doubt it. I actually agree with you about this season -- I'm 33, and I
like season 6 well enough -- but I strongly doubt that you'll find any
correlation between viewers' ages and how they feel about s6.
It's interesting that most people who have responded to this thread so far
seem to judge s6 by how similar the Scoobies' lives are to
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: In Buffyverse: vamps and demons = evil?
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In article <rVkk8.13268$pC1.2...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
Ken <kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>1) They are evil because they deliberately and repeatedly kill or harm
>people (not to mention property). They do so because they have to fill a
>craving to live. They also do so because they love abusing their power
>(enhanced strength and speed).
Most vamps also seem to enjoy terrifying, torturing and otherwise hurting
humans, in addition to feeding off them.
>
>2) While they have a craving, they don't HAVE to have use humans, or kill
>humans, or use unwilling humans. So there is an alternative. Not all vamps
>go on powertrips (not just killing humans for food, but scaring them,
>dominating them), even tho many do. Some lie low and just try to get by
>without getting noticed--and thus hunted down.
>
>3) While the overwhelming majority seem to be immoral (i.e., when given a
>choice, they deliberately choose the "evil" or more "evil" path), some seem
>to be amoral (i.e., doesn't go out of their way to do "evil", but doesn't
>shirk from it either). CAN they be moral (i.e., deliberately choose the
>"good" path)?
>
>It seems they could, by simply hunting criminals or animals. What has been
>shown in the Buffyverse that contradicts that? It seems they are "evil"
>mostly because it's so EASY to be so (i.e., vampire strength vs puny scared
>humans). Plus they have enormous peer pressure.
>
>And yet, BTVS has shown some good demons, werewolves and at least some
>not-so-bad vamps who dine on willing humans. ANGEL has shown plenty of good
>demons, such as Gru, Lorne, even Cordy is partially demon now and fights the
>good fight (like Doyle did).
>
>Maybe, just maybe, given the time, shown alternatives and encouragement
>vamps could be good? Altho having some garlic, stakes or silver blades
>nearby wouldn't hurt, just in case they ''fall off the wagon''.
>
>-- Ken from Chicago
>
>
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Broken-hearted Demon Sex (spoilers)
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In article <hASz8.12087$Ii2.1...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>After reading the wildfeed for Entropy, the sex scene, the recriminations,
>the hurt feelings, I didn't feel too sorry for Xander or Buffy. But after
>watching Entropy, seeing first hand, how hurt and angry they were,
>well.......I still didn't feel sorry for Xander or Buffy. And do you know
>why? Well, let me tell you, it's because DEMON'S HAVE FEELINGS TOO! That's
>right. Spike very well might be an "evil soulless thing", but he's an "evil
>soulless thing" who feels the pain of rejection. And he was as clearly
y>dumped as any being possibly could be. No mistake about it. Buffy told
him
>to move on, she doesn't love him. There isn't any reason in the world why
>he shouldn't do just exactly that. Anya's situation is a little more
>complicated, but, not by much. What's interesting about Anya is that, up
>until now, we've really only seen her humanity. We had a glimpse of demon
>Anya in "The Wish" but not enough to tell us anything about what vengeance
>demons are really like. As it turns out demon Anya and human Anya are
>virtually identical. Take away the unattractive bulging veins and the
>ability to wish people into perdition, and Anyanka is simply Anya. Or
>vice-versa. Whereas, Spike and William, Angelus and Angel, etc..are really
>two very different things. Or, are they? More murky waters courtesy of the
>ME writing staff. However you want to slice the demon/human pie, I felt
>more empathy for Anya and Spike last night than I did for Buffy and Xander.
>That was a first.
>
>Spike can be so completely charming when he wants to be. I love the way he
>assured Anya that she was the only Scooby he wouldn't bite if he had the
>chance.
>
>Anya might be a very attractive demon/woman, but that hairstyle has got to
>go. Last season she was the only cast member that looked half-way decent.
>This season she could use some work.
>
>Xander got a hair-cut. A much needed improvement.
>
>Buffy is _not_ a hat person
>
>I'm glad the Key is banned from half the stores in Sunnydale. I don't think
>Buffy should be joking with her about the things she stole.
>
>Willow's outfit looked less than horrible, but, that dress hanging on the
>bedroom door has got to go.
>
>I think Tara misses being a part of the gang as much, or more, than she
>misses being with Willow.
>
>The nerd storyline was confusing and a little hard to follow, if I hadn't
>read spoilers and other viewers comments I don't think I would have had the
>slightest idea about what they were doing. Andrew is running perpetually a
>quart low. He thinks Spike is "so cool." Any takers on how long before we
>see vamp Andrew? I say early Season 7, unless, Warren kills him first.
>
>Overall, I think Entropy was a big set-up for a demon/human epiphany for the
>gang. They have more in common than any of them want to admit. And the
>line that separates good from evil is pretty darn fuzzy. If I was Buffy, I
>would pop Xander in the nose. It's none of his business who she has sex
>with and he's hardly in a place to pass judgment. Then I would turn around
>and pop Spike in the nose for kissing and telling. Anya is clearly still
>very much in love with Xander and she hit the nail on the head. He's
>running scared. I'm glad she realizes that he's the problem and it's not
>her fault. (well, until she boinked Spike on the Magic Box table, anyway) I
>don't think much will be cleared up by the end of this season, but I think
>next season will see Xander and Anya back together and a very different
>Spike on the scene. I hope ME let's him come back as a brunette. With his
>bright blue eyes it would be a very striking combination, and prepare
>everyone to accept that whatever has happened to him, he's a changed
>man/demon.
>
>
>Shannon
>
>
>
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: "Entropy", a slightly-early review (spoilerinos)
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In article <e93b592a.0205...@posting.google.com>,
Stephen Robinson <blacks...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Angel's becoming Angelus was simply moral justification for Xander's
>jealousy, as it later was in Season Three.
My view is slightly different. EVERYONE had good reason to hate Angel by.
When the good Angel came back, they all got over it, to varying degrees.
Xander, like everyone else, had very real non-jealousy reasons to hate
Angel; but his jealousy kept him from getting over it as much as the other
Scoobies did. In short jealousy was an aggravating factor, but not the
whole story. And don't forget, even Xander was willing to tolerate Angel
in the third season; his hatred only really bubbled up when something
special happened to set him off, like Angel feeding off of Buffy.
>As for Spike, they fought beside each other when Buffy was dead. Spike
>has saved Xander on more than one occasion during the course of a
>battle. I can understand simply just not liking him, but he seems to
>focus on the events of, say, "Lover's Walk," more than "The Weight of
>the World" or "Spiral." Speaking of which, I'd hope the nice scene
>Xander and Spike had in that episode would have meant that they had
>come to some sort of terms with each other. But, just like with many
>character developments, this season has completely abandoned that.
I don't know if they've really abandoned it. For example, in Spiral,
Xander and Spike start to come to terms, but it ends quickly when they
start disagreeing about what to do. In Normal Again, they fight, but then
they cooperate soon afterwards to hunt the demon that hurt Buffy. Xander
and Spike's relationship varies according to the circumstances.
There's
just not much bringing them together, and a lot
>
>>
>> Do you really believe that Anya has moved on? If she had moved on then why
>> would she be so keen to see Xander suffer - which IMO I think reflects badly
>> on Anya, as she was starting to grow as a human but when something goes
>> wrong she turns back into a demon and tries to get everybody to curse
>> Xander. I totally understand revenge but I don't think that Anya is going to
>> come out of this totally clean either - and if Anya doesn't decide herself
>> to quit the vengeance gig then she is going to end up much worse then
>> Xander.
>
>It's ironic to me that they were so concerned about girls getting the
>wrong idea with the Spike/Buffy relationship, but the Xander/Anya one
>was far worse. Anya was essentially a bad person whom Xander loved
>because she was hot. I'm sorry, but when he's damning Spike, yet
>sleeping with someone who committed horrible acts of evil for ten
>times longer than Spike (and showed very little remorse for it even
>with a soul). Worse is that Anya's humanity meant nothing to her for
>its own sake. Once Xander breaks up with her, she returns to her evil
>ways.
>
>And think about this: What if after Buffy ditched Spike, Spike ran off
>and had his chip removed and started slaughtering people. This is just
>as bad. Where can they go with Anya's character?
>
>Also, why the hell can't anyone tell that Anya is not human anymore?
>She doesn't have a soul, remember? Shouldn't Xander detect that?
>Wouldn't Spike (remember Angel's "You don't smell human.")?
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <3CD168C6...@netscape.net>,
ellenkb <elle...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Christopher Gross wrote:
>
>> In article <3CD0AFDC...@netscape.net>,
>> ellenkb <elle...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>SPOILERS THROUGH PRESENT AND FUTURE RUMORS COMMENTED ON
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>
>
>This is the debate I was trying to avoid. I know many people love xander and
>
>will defend his honor until their last breath and disagree with a lot of what
>
>I had to say, but I had to say it. I had to get it off my chest because other
>
>wise I would have just kept re-writing the letter over and over in my head
>
>until it exploded... You can ignore that if you'd like and we'll continue our
>
>conversation...
>
> >
>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>His self righteousness really gets on my nerves. The way he was
>>>disgusted with Buffy for also having sex with Spike... Who is he to
>>>judge her? You can be friends with Xander as long as you're perfect and
>>>never do anything questionable in his eyes.
>>>
>>
>> Riiigghhht.... Like the way he hated Giles after the Ripper's dark past
>> was revealed. Like the way he never forgave Buffy for running off after
>> Becoming II, or hiding Angel in season 3. Like the way he refused to have
>> anything to do with Cordelia after her long-time abuse of him and his
>> friends. Like the way he hated Willow after Wrecked. Like the way he
>> hated Anya for having been a vengeance demon. Like the way he hated Oz
>> for being a werewolf. Like the way he hates Dawn for stealing. Like he
>> hates Tara for casting the spell in Family. And so on.
>>
>
>
>Actually, I think Xander pretty much hated buffy for running away and
>let her know exactly how he felt in Dead Man's Party. He had no idea
>what she was going through and had no right to judge. Yeah, sure he
>eventually came around and forgave her after she saved his life, again
>and for the millionth time... what a great guy. I think he always hated
>Angel and never forgave him, even when Angel was a souled good guy. He
>just doesn't like the guys that Buffy likes because he's jealous and
>immature and could never see Angel as a warrior for the good, only
>competition for the girl he then had the hots for.
>
>>
>> Sounds like you're just upset that someone other than Spike is seen as the
>> good guy. I love Spike's character, but I love him for his ambiguity, not
>> because he's clearly a good guy. He's not. He helps the Scoobies a.)
>> becaue he loves Buffy and b.) because he likes to kill, and demons and
>> vamps are the only ones he can kill. After Buffy dies, he apparently
>> stays in Sunnydale because he promised Buffy to protect Dawn, NOT because
>> he cares about anyone else there. Now, do I hate Spike for his flaws?
>> No! They make him a better character. And I don't see why you have
>> Xander for his flaws (the real ones, that is, not made-up shit). They
>> make him a more interesting character than Mr. Perfect would be.
>>
>
>
>I had a whole response prepared for this but since at the end of your
>paragraph you tossed in that I'm just making up shit, I might as well
>not even bother.
>
>
>>>I really hope that spike goes to africa,
>>>gets re-souled and turned back into william and then makes his way back
>>>to sunnydale to kick xander's ass!
>>>
>>
>> If Spike ever gets re-ensouled, he should be as crippled by guilt as Angel
>> was. Far from kicking Xander's ass, he should tell him "I'm different
>> now, but you were perfectly right to hate me back in my soulless days."
>> --Chris
>
>yes, you had a right to hate me all those times I was saving your ass.
>
>ellen
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <aartmq$c...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>,
Christopher Gross <chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
>Summary:
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>
>In article <3CD168C6...@netscape.net>,
>ellenkb <elle...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>SPOILERS THROUGH PRESENT AND FUTURE RUMORS COMMENTED ON
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>
>>
>>This is the debate I was trying to avoid. I know many people love xander
>and >will defend his honor until their last breath and disagree with a lot
>of what >I had to say, but I had to say it. I had to get it off my chest
>because other >wise I would have just kept re-writing the letter over and
>over in my head >until it exploded...
>
>Hey, I can understand the urge to vent. I felt something similar when I
>wrote my reply.
>
>>Actually, I think Xander pretty much hated buffy for running away and
>>let her know exactly how he felt in Dead Man's Party. He had no idea
>>what she was going through and had no right to judge. Yeah, sure he
>>eventually came around and forgave her after she saved his life, again
>>and for the millionth time... what a great guy.
>
>First of all, in that episode Xander clearly didn't *hate* Buffy. He was
>angry with her, but that's different. He was very happy to see her at
>first, which is hardly the way he'd act about someone he hated! The anger
>only bubbled up at the party, when everyone thought Buffy might disappear
>again. Secondly, Willow and Joyce showed the same anger towards Buffy; so
>why single Xander out? Finally, you make it sound like Xander only
>forgave Buffy because she saved his life, but I see NO evidence for this
>in the episode. What I see is the Scoobies having unresolved anger
>amongst themselves, getting into an argument, then being put in danger,
>working as a team again, and realizing that they don't want to fight each
>other. Xander, Buffy, Willow and Joyce were ALL angry, and the danger
>made them ALL forget their anger. Xander was no better or worse than the
>other three.
>
>>I think he always hated
>>Angel and never forgave him, even when Angel was a souled good guy.
>
>Xander was certainly jealous of Angel, but he also had very real practical
>reasons to hate him. The jealousy kept him from forgiving, but it wasn't
>the main source of his hatred. Note that (despite his "I hated Angel long
>before it was popular" comment) he doesn't do anything that indicates he
>really *hates* Angel until after Innocence, when they find out that he's
>Angelus again. And while his jealousy keeps him from completely forgiving
>Angel, he's willing to tolerate him in season 3. He even helps with the
>research to save Angel in Amends.
>
>>He
>>just doesn't like the guys that Buffy likes because he's jealous and
>>immature and could never see Angel as a warrior for the good, only
>>competition for the girl he then had the hots for.
>
>Ah, but what about Riley? It took a while, but Xander eventually became
>friends with Riley and even tried to help make Buffy and Riley's
>relationship work. There's more to Xander than just jealousy.
>
>>> Sounds like you're just upset that someone other than Spike is seen as the
>>> good guy. I love Spike's character, but I love him for his ambiguity, not
>>> because he's clearly a good guy. He's not. He helps the Scoobies a.)
>>> becaue he loves Buffy and b.) because he likes to kill, and demons and
>>> vamps are the only ones he can kill. After Buffy dies, he apparently
>>> stays in Sunnydale because he promised Buffy to protect Dawn, NOT because
>>> he cares about anyone else there. Now, do I hate Spike for his flaws?
>>> No! They make him a better character. And I don't see why you have
>>> Xander for his flaws (the real ones, that is, not made-up shit). They
>>> make him a more interesting character than Mr. Perfect would be.
>>
>>I had a whole response prepared for this but since at the end of your
>>paragraph you tossed in that I'm just making up shit, I might as well
>>not even bother.
>
>All right, I apologize for that crack. Making what I consider erroneous
>interpretations is NOT the same as "making up shit." I withdraw the
>"made-up shit" statement. Now, what was your response?
>
>>> If Spike ever gets re-ensouled, he should be as crippled by guilt as Angel
>>> was. Far from kicking Xander's ass, he should tell him "I'm different
>>> now, but you were perfectly right to hate me back in my soulless days."
>>> --Chris
>>
>>yes, you had a right to hate me all those times I was saving your ass.
>
>More like "Yes, you were right to hate me all that time when I was a
>vicious monster who tried to kill you and the people dearest to you
>numerous times; and also during the time when I had, quite against my
>will, lost the ability to kill humans, but still mocked and needled and
>mentally tormented you whenever I got the chance; and furthermore, the
>times (not really as numerous as some people think) when I helped save
>your ass don't merit enough gratitude to counterbalance your justified
>hatred, since these actions were motivated mainly by a selfish desire to
>get in good with the woman I lusted after, plus my personal pleasure in
>the act of killing, even if it was only killing vampires and demons." Of
>course, that would be an awful long speech for a TV show.
>
>
>--Chris
>
>--
>______________________________________________________________________
>Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
>chr...@gwu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <3CD1A2F7...@mindspring.com>,
Guava Baby <guav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Murderer?!?! Because he wanted to destroy Spike? I think we're forgeting
>> that Spike isn't a person, he's a thing. If you're going to grant vampires
>> personhood and a right to life then we'll need to rename the show "Buffy,
>> the Serial Killer" because she's slaughtered hundreds.
>
>Yes, but Spike is defenseless and *can't* physically hurt humans (other than
>Buffy). I think this raises him to a certain level of personhood.
It makes killing him unnecessary, provided you trust the Initiative's
technology to work, and y
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <whfA8.2563$8n2.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
Volin <Vo...@kaltara.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Likewise, Spike even when he was a villain I always thought that he had a
>certain honour, and while he tried to talk the talk I never thought he was
>anywhere near as evil as Angelus (or the Master).
Spike definitely seems to be an unusual personality for a vamp. Aside
from needing the blood, all vamps enjoy human suffering in itself.
However, the degree varies a great deal. Angelus enjoyed tormenting and
killing humans the most. Spike enjoyed it too, but he enjoyed other
things -- ty
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: "Entropy", a slightly-early review (spoilerinos)
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In article <1ada1b70.02050...@posting.google.com>,
Dan Armato <daniel...@aol.com> wrote:
>"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wHHz8.152451$in3.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>...
>> "Richard Edwards" <ri...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:3CCF42C6...@insight.rr.com...
>> > Al Smith wrote:
>> > <snip opinion>
>> >
>> > Wow. I couldn't disagree with your opinion regarding Xander more. I
>> > was even a little disgusted by it. Sure, Xander screwed up bad and did
>> > something horrible to Anya, but he's still a good person. Spike's the
>> > asshole here with his total disregard with how he's going to hurt
>> > Xander, Buffy, AND Anya (she hasn't moved, are you blind?), and Anya's
>> > just managed to screw up as bad (if not worse, because her motivations
>> > were much less pure) as Xander.
>> >
>> > I would have cheered if Xander had killed Spike. Barring that, I find
>> > his reaction completely satisfactory. Massive, wrenching hurt does that
>> > kind of thing to people.
>
>That is a scary POV, if you are justifying attempter murder because
>your ex-lover is with somebody else. OJ Simpson much?
>
>> >
>> > Please note, I'm not saying that killing Spike would be _right_. I'm
>> > not making that strong of a statement.
>> >
>> > Later,
>> > Richard
>> >
>> > (By the way, your wrong as to when Dawn figured out about Buffy and
>> > Xander. It was before the confrontation.)
>>
>> When I saw Xander heading down the street with that axe, I was just beyond
>> disgusted. He crushes and humiliates his fiance, and he thinks he has the
>> right to go kill Spike? Geez, did Anya get drunk and turn to get-even sex,
>> or not-feel-so-lonely sex, or whatever it was, with Spike, because Xander
>> was such a great guy? Look, Xander is not Anya's husband, fiance, or
>> boyfriend, and he has NO RIGHT to try to kill Spike! Anya is free to do as
>> she pleases, and whose fault is that? XANDER'S!! He created that
>> situation -- he created a broken, vulnerable Anya. Now, Anya is responsible
>> for her decision to sleep with Spike -- but Xander has no right to say
>> anything, or do anything about it. Who does he think he is -- Spike can't
>> fight back, and Xander knows it! What a punk Xander is. I am not saying
>> what Spike and Anya did was right -- but it was a surprisingly human choice
>> for a vampire and a demon. Buffy made it quite clear to Spike that he
>> should move on -- how could she possibly be surprised that he would? She
>> TOLD him to! What -- was he supposed to mope around forever after a woman
>> who told him she didn't love him? Please. I think Xander going to kill
>> Spike is MUCH worse than Spike having sex with Anya. Spike and Anya are
>> single, thanks to their callous, insensitive exes. Xander may still care
>> about Anya, love Anya, but he has to accept that his actions may have ended
>> any chance they had. That's reality. But Xander going after Spike with an
>> axe, a Spike who can't fight back? When Xander and Anya are no longer
>> together (thanks to him) and he therefore has not been betrayed (although he
>> may feel that way -- I am sure Anya knows how it feels), how dare he get the
>> idea that he can kill Spike? Xander is the selfish, bad, EVIL one here,
>> imho.
>
>I'm solidly in the Nimue camp here. I knew people would defend Xander
>on this board (people will always find a way to justify the most over
>the top behavior, no matter what), but I still shake my head in wonder
>when I see it.
>
>Xander has always had a "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. A
>big character flaw is that he cannot see things from others points of
>view. He has hardly ever walked in (or attempted to even try on)
>another's shoes. He sees things his way and if something does not fit
>into his world (like Buffy and Spike boinkage), he condemns everybody
>as wacko and immoral and bad and wrong and disgusting, when it is none
>of his beeswax. He is NOT the arbiter of morality.
>
>Look at Dead Man's Party----he never even paused to consider Buffy's
>feelings. Then there is the whole "Xander's lie" thing, but that need
>not be rehashed. He justs gets a big happy when he believes he has the
>"moral high ground" and goes too far. I didn't like his little speech
>to Buffy about how great Riley was, either. And, as we all know, he
>has always had a big honkin' inferiority complex. That is why is is
>the class clown. It hides his insecurities. It can be cute and funny
>and all, but he can go way overboard at times, especially when coupled
>with the "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. He was jealous of
>Angel and is now jealous of Spike. Spike "gets the chicks" as it were.
>Xander didn't, now he did, but Spike one-upped him again. Then there
>is the whole deep seeded, repressed Buffy lust....A lot of things
>bubbled to the surface. But, violence is no way to fight your own
>inner demons.
>
>Of course, Xander has had his moments. His is very likable in general,
>and his foppishness (sp?) makes you overlook some big flaws. He does
>care about his friends and has shown himself to be very brave (even
>when misguided in some cases) when the chips are down. I think we all
>identified with the early "never gets the girl" high school Xander
>complex. I can even see his POV, somewhat, when it comes to calling
>off the wedding (I've never really been a huge Anya fan either, so
>maybe that plays into it a bit)---it was an awful, hurtful thing that
>he did---but I can sort of see why he did what he did. His timing was
>very bad (understatement of the year here!) and he really jumped into
>the whole proposal thing too fast and without thinking. I'll give him
>some lattitude here...he is really still a kid in many respects.
>BUT....he went way over the line in Entropy. The Dr. Hyde came out,
>big time. Xander just expected Anya to forgive him and everything to
>be "Xander-world right" again. Well, big news here for you
>Xand....Anya has feelings too. She fully had the right not to forgive
>him. Xander has to accept the blame himself, not push it off on Spike
>or Anya or what he sees as everybody else's "disgusting" behavior. It
>is an internal demon he should kill, not a (fully innocent in this
>case) Spike.
>Funny that he could not see that. Kind of sad really. Xander got in
>over his head, screwed up, and didn't want to face the consequences.
>Not a good moment for Xander.
>
>Anya and Spike. First, Spike is not obligated to do what is in the
>best interest of the Xander/Anya relationship. He is a third party
>and, in no way, has to answer to Xander for his actions. This is
>especially true since Xander has always treated Spike like crap, even
>when Spike was clearly fighting on the good side. ANYA AND XANDER WERE
>BROKEN UP at the time. I don't know if Ross and Rachel were "on a
>break", but Buffy made it very clear to Spike that, at least for now,
>it was over---and Anya made it quite clear to Xander that they were
>not an item. Clearly, there was no reason to think otherwise,
>especially from the POV of Anya and Spike. Spike didn't plan it at
>all. It just felt right at the moment. So, the table top humping
>wasn't the most healthy thing in the world for the two of them.
>Neither is drinking a, loaded with fat(!), double mocha coconut
>Frappacino from Starbucks (mmmmmmmmmm). But, the act, in itself wasn't
>evil. You had 2 unattached parties being orgasm buddies. And, since
>when does a quick fling in the sack (er, on the table) even belong on
>the same playing field as attempted murder, in the immorality scale?
>Or beating up a helpless person, for that matter? Some sense of scale,
>please!
>
>I can see Xander being depressed. I can see him being angry at himself
>(seems he still hasn't grasped the seriousness of leving somebody at
>the altar). Why is he angry at Spike for this. I guess it is human
>nature to deflect the guilt from himself to the competition (Spike)
>because he could not accept that he caused all of this. So, he
>sublimates his anger. Fine, sulk all you want. I feel bad for you that
>you screwed up. But then, he goes completely OJ and tries to KILL (as
>in murder in cold blood) Spike. I can understand the hurt and
>misdirected initial anger, but trying to kill somebody.....? What if
>it wasn't Spike....what if it had been some guy Anya picked up in a
>bar. Should he die because Anya's ex is all jealous (poor baby). Well,
>too bad. You abandoned Anya, now she doesn't come running back to you
>and you blame her?
>
>Whether you like it or not, Buffy is the one who is the slayer. If she
>sees Spike as a creature that is not evil and considers him not
>stakable, then Xander should respect that. She has included Spike,
>somewhat, in the group and sees him as a sentient being. He HAS done a
>lot for the group. Xander should respect Spike's right to exist, even
>if only as a common decency for his friend Buffy, at the very least.
>Would he like it if Buffy wanted to kill Anya (who has, like Spike,
>quite a shaded past herself, you know). Does Buffy treat Anya like
>crap? No. Why? Well, for one, she has some tact and courtesy. Plus,
>she respects Xander and is willing to accept his friend into the
>group, regardless of the trouble she has caused.
>
>And finally, where does Xander get off (bathroom,playboy this week, I
>guess) but seriously, where does he get off passing judgement on
>Buffy? I mean, really, what gives? He walks away from the entire group
>in disgust? Huh?
>
>So, yes I like the "butt-monkey Xander" who makes the dumb remarks yet
>bravely stands with his friends in battle. I love the Xander who
>propped up Buffy's faith in herself. I like the Soldier guy in the
>Halloween episode. I like the Xander who was honestly blind to
>Willow's high school crush. I like the Xander that saved Buffy in her
>encounter with The Master. The unsung hero Xander. The lovable loser
>who never gets the girl, yet never gives up trying, and makes a fool
>out of himself being ever dorky and awkward. The everyman's hero. I
>like that Xander. That is the Xander I think of when somebody says
>"Xander".
>
>
>I loathe the Mr. Hyde Moralist Xander who thinks only his way is best.
>This dark side has come out in the past and there are times when I
>wanted to really kick his ass myself.
>
>I once coined the term Xander's "Beer Muscles of Moral Indignation" or
>something similiar, a while ago when he showed his ugly Mr. Hyde face
>in Dead Man's Party (which I try to block from my mind because I
>really want to like Xander). What I mean by this is that when Xander
>thinks he is right, he thinks he is invincible. He talks the big talk,
>so to speak and his mouth writes checks his body just can't cash (ode
>to all those Top Gun fans!) This was in reference to Dead Man's Party.
>He went off on Buffy with a vengeance.....and acted like Mr. Tough
>guy.
>
> This side came out in full force in Entropy. The Xander we think we
>know is truly devolving into a state of chaos, and to his shame, it is
>his fault, in toto. Right now, it is very hard to ignore his complete
>and utter "assholishness". If the theme is still "Oh Grow Up", I think
>Xander has taken some major steps backward this season.
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: "Entropy", a slightly-early review (spoilerinos)
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In article <1ada1b70.02050...@posting.google.com>,
Dan Armato <daniel...@aol.com> wrote:
>"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wHHz8.152451$in3.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>...
>> "Richard Edwards" <ri...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:3CCF42C6...@insight.rr.com...
>> > Al Smith wrote:
>> > <snip opinion>
>> >
>> > Wow. I couldn't disagree with your opinion regarding Xander more. I
>> > was even a little disgusted by it. Sure, Xander screwed up bad and did
>> > something horrible to Anya, but he's still a good person. Spike's the
>> > asshole here with his total disregard with how he's going to hurt
>> > Xander, Buffy, AND Anya (she hasn't moved, are you blind?), and Anya's
>> > just managed to screw up as bad (if not worse, because her motivations
>> > were much less pure) as Xander.
>> >
>> > I would have cheered if Xander had killed Spike. Barring that, I find
>> > his reaction completely satisfactory. Massive, wrenching hurt does that
>> > kind of thing to people.
>
>That is a scary POV, if you are justifying attempter murder because
>your ex-lover is with somebody else. OJ Simpson much?
>
>> >
>> > Please note, I'm not saying that killing Spike would be _right_. I'm
>> > not making that strong of a statement.
>> >
>> > Later,
>> > Richard
>> >
>> > (By the way, your wrong as to when Dawn figured out about Buffy and
>> > Xander. It was before the confrontation.)
>>
>> When I saw Xander heading down the street with that axe, I was just beyond
>> disgusted. He crushes and humiliates his fiance, and he thinks he has the
>> right to go kill Spike? Geez, did Anya get drunk and turn to get-even sex,
>> or not-feel-so-lonely sex, or whatever it was, with Spike, because Xander
>> was such a great guy? Look, Xander is not Anya's husband, fiance, or
>> boyfriend, and he has NO RIGHT to try to kill Spike! Anya is free to do as
>> she pleases, and whose fault is that? XANDER'S!! He created that
>> situation -- he created a broken, vulnerable Anya. Now, Anya is responsible
>> for her decision to sleep with Spike -- but Xander has no right to say
>> anything, or do anything about it. Who does he think he is -- Spike can't
>> fight back, and Xander knows it! What a punk Xander is. I am not saying
>> what Spike and Anya did was right -- but it was a surprisingly human choice
>> for a vampire and a demon. Buffy made it quite clear to Spike that he
>> should move on -- how could she possibly be surprised that he would? She
>> TOLD him to! What -- was he supposed to mope around forever after a woman
>> who told him she didn't love him? Please. I think Xander going to kill
>> Spike is MUCH worse than Spike having sex with Anya. Spike and Anya are
>> single, thanks to their callous, insensitive exes. Xander may still care
>> about Anya, love Anya, but he has to accept that his actions may have ended
>> any chance they had. That's reality. But Xander going after Spike with an
>> axe, a Spike who can't fight back? When Xander and Anya are no longer
>> together (thanks to him) and he therefore has not been betrayed (although he
>> may feel that way -- I am sure Anya knows how it feels), how dare he get the
>> idea that he can kill Spike? Xander is the selfish, bad, EVIL one here,
>> imho.
>
>I'm solidly in the Nimue camp here. I knew people would defend Xander
>on this board (people will always find a way to justify the most over
>the top behavior, no matter what), but I still shake my head in wonder
>when I see it.
>
>Xander has always had a "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. A
>big character flaw is that he cannot see things from others points of
>view. He has hardly ever walked in (or attempted to even try on)
>another's shoes. He sees things his way and if something does not fit
>into his world (like Buffy and Spike boinkage), he condemns everybody
>as wacko and immoral and bad and wrong and disgusting, when it is none
>of his beeswax. He is NOT the arbiter of morality.
>
>Look at Dead Man's Party----he never even paused to consider Buffy's
>feelings. Then there is the whole "Xander's lie" thing, but that need
>not be rehashed. He justs gets a big happy when he believes he has the
>"moral high ground" and goes too far. I didn't like his little speech
>to Buffy about how great Riley was, either. And, as we all know, he
>has always had a big honkin' inferiority complex. That is why is is
>the class clown. It hides his insecurities. It can be cute and funny
>and all, but he can go way overboard at times, especially when coupled
>with the "Xander's way is the right way" mentality. He was jealous of
>Angel and is now jealous of Spike. Spike "gets the chicks" as it were.
>Xander didn't, now he did, but Spike one-upped him again. Then there
>is the whole deep seeded, repressed Buffy lust....A lot of things
>bubbled to the surface. But, violence is no way to fight your own
>inner demons.
>
>Of course, Xander has had his moments. His is very likable in general,
>and his foppishness (sp?) makes you overlook some big flaws. He does
>care about his friends and has shown himself to be very brave (even
>when misguided in some cases) when the chips are down. I think we all
>identified with the early "never gets the girl" high school Xander
>complex. I can even see his POV, somewhat, when it comes to calling
>off the wedding (I've never really been a huge Anya fan either, so
>maybe that plays into it a bit)---it was an awful, hurtful thing that
>he did---but I can sort of see why he did what he did. His timing was
>very bad (understatement of the year here!) and he really jumped into
>the whole proposal thing too fast and without thinking. I'll give him
>some lattitude here...he is really still a kid in many respects.
>BUT....he went way over the line in Entropy. The Dr. Hyde came out,
>big time. Xander just expected Anya to forgive him and everything to
>be "Xander-world right" again. Well, big news here for you
>Xand....Anya has feelings too. She fully had the right not to forgive
>him. Xander has to accept the blame himself, not push it off on Spike
>or Anya or what he sees as everybody else's "disgusting" behavior. It
>is an internal demon he should kill, not a (fully innocent in this
>case) Spike.
>Funny that he could not see that. Kind of sad really. Xander got in
>over his head, screwed up, and didn't want to face the consequences.
>Not a good moment for Xander.
>
>Anya and Spike. First, Spike is not obligated to do what is in the
>best interest of the Xander/Anya relationship. He is a third party
>and, in no way, has to answer to Xander for his actions. This is
>especially true since Xander has always treated Spike like crap, even
>when Spike was clearly fighting on the good side. ANYA AND XANDER WERE
>BROKEN UP at the time. I don't know if Ross and Rachel were "on a
>break", but Buffy made it very clear to Spike that, at least for now,
>it was over---and Anya made it quite clear to Xander that they were
>not an item. Clearly, there was no reason to think otherwise,
>especially from the POV of Anya and Spike. Spike didn't plan it at
>all. It just felt right at the moment. So, the table top humping
>wasn't the most healthy thing in the world for the two of them.
>Neither is drinking a, loaded with fat(!), double mocha coconut
>Frappacino from Starbucks (mmmmmmmmmm). But, the act, in itself wasn't
>evil. You had 2 unattached parties being orgasm buddies. And, since
>when does a quick fling in the sack (er, on the table) even belong on
>the same playing field as attempted murder, in the immorality scale?
>Or beating up a helpless person, for that matter? Some sense of scale,
>please!
>
>I can see Xander being depressed. I can see him being angry at himself
>(seems he still hasn't grasped the seriousness of leving somebody at
>the altar). Why is he angry at Spike for this. I guess it is human
>nature to deflect the guilt from himself to the competition (Spike)
>because he could not accept that he caused all of this. So, he
>sublimates his anger. Fine, sulk all you want. I feel bad for you that
>you screwed up. But then, he goes completely OJ and tries to KILL (as
>in murder in cold blood) Spike. I can understand the hurt and
>misdirected initial anger, but trying to kill somebody.....? What if
>it wasn't Spike....what if it had been some guy Anya picked up in a
>bar. Should he die because Anya's ex is all jealous (poor baby). Well,
>too bad. You abandoned Anya, now she doesn't come running back to you
>and you blame her?
>
>Whether you like it or not, Buffy is the one who is the slayer. If she
>sees Spike as a creature that is not evil and considers him not
>stakable, then Xander should respect that. She has included Spike,
>somewhat, in the group and sees him as a sentient being. He HAS done a
>lot for the group. Xander should respect Spike's right to exist, even
>if only as a common decency for his friend Buffy, at the very least.
>Would he like it if Buffy wanted to kill Anya (who has, like Spike,
>quite a shaded past herself, you know). Does Buffy treat Anya like
>crap? No. Why? Well, for one, she has some tact and courtesy. Plus,
>she respects Xander and is willing to accept his friend into the
>group, regardless of the trouble she has caused.
>
>And finally, where does Xander get off (bathroom,playboy this week, I
>guess) but seriously, where does he get off passing judgement on
>Buffy? I mean, really, what gives? He walks away from the entire group
>in disgust? Huh?
>
>So, yes I like the "butt-monkey Xander" who makes the dumb remarks yet
>bravely stands with his friends in battle. I love the Xander who
>propped up Buffy's faith in herself. I like the Soldier guy in the
>Halloween episode. I like the Xander who was honestly blind to
>Willow's high school crush. I like the Xander that saved Buffy in her
>encounter with The Master. The unsung hero Xander. The lovable loser
>who never gets the girl, yet never gives up trying, and makes a fool
>out of himself being ever dorky and awkward. The everyman's hero. I
>like that Xander. That is the Xander I think of when somebody says
>"Xander".
>
>
>I loathe the Mr. Hyde Moralist Xander who thinks only his way is best.
>This dark side has come out in the past and there are times when I
>wanted to really kick his ass myself.
>
>I once coined the term Xander's "Beer Muscles of Moral Indignation" or
>something similiar, a while ago when he showed his ugly Mr. Hyde face
>in Dead Man's Party (which I try to block from my mind because I
>really want to like Xander). What I mean by this is that when Xander
>thinks he is right, he thinks he is invincible. He talks the big talk,
>so to speak and his mouth writes checks his body just can't cash (ode
>to all those Top Gun fans!) This was in reference to Dead Man's Party.
>He went off on Buffy with a vengeance.....and acted like Mr. Tough
>guy.
>
> This side came out in full force in Entropy. The Xander we think we
>know is truly devolving into a state of chaos, and to his shame, it is
>his fault, in toto. Right now, it is very hard to ignore his complete
>and utter "assholishness". If the theme is still "Oh Grow Up", I think
>Xander has taken some major steps backward this season.
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: my observations of Xander (and why I don't like him)
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In article <aaugcr$3pc$1...@news3.bu.edu>,
Peter Meilinger <mell...@bu.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Gross <chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>: In article <75f34eb.02050...@posting.google.com>,
>: MLGM <mlgm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>:>
>:>No, most of don't like Xander because he's a racist and sexist creep.
Just in case there's any confusion, those were MLGM's words, not mine.
>
>I'd love to hear your argument for why Xander's a racist. If you
>mean because he hates all vampires, don't forget Buffy. Xander
>may hate them, but she's the one who does her best to kill damned
>near every one of them she comes across. Which is worse?
>
>There have been few enough non-white humans on the show that
>I really don't see where you're coming from there.
>
>:>But emotionally he has
>:>been incrediably abusive to women from day one.
>
>: I'd be interested in seeing some specific examples to back up these
>: assertions.
>
>You can make a case for emotionally insensitive easily enough, I
>think. At least in regards to Anya - the way he treated her a
>lot of the time always bugged the hell out of me. I don't think
>it was abusive by any means, but it also wasn't nice. It certainly
>wasn't "incredibly abusive."
>
>And I can't think of anyone else he's been abusive towards. He
>was clueless about Willow's crush, so he hurt her feelings
>more than once. Not deliberately, though. He traded barbs
>with Cordelia, but it's not like she was anything even
>resembling an innocent victim there. For one thing, she
>gave as good as she got. And if you want to bring in the
>Lover's Walk fiasco, then Willow's just as culpable. He's
>yelled at Buffy more than once, but abuse isn't what I'd
>call any of that. Just good old fashioned knock down drag
>out screaming matches, really.
>
>Xander's been physically abusive towards Spike on more
>than one occasion. But so has Buffy, and she's hit Spike
>without cause many more times than Xander has.
>
>Pete
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Xander is a big fat idiot
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In article <3cd7e...@goliath.newsgroups.com>,
Julian Cook <jul...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>You could always learn how to write English first.
Do you mean James? His post sounded like good English to me! He even got
"bated breath" right, when so many people write "baited breath." That
always makes me think of people with worms, minnows and other fisherman's
bait stuffed in their cheeks....
--Chris
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Subject: Re: Plot holes in last episode
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Agreed. I don't think it was implausible or anything. In fact, I
think it's more believable this way than if he had aimed carefully. Same
thing with his shooting speed.
>It had to be the second or third. After the first shot Buffy turned and
>pushed Xander out of the way. You can't see that without slow motion.
At normal speed, you just catch a glimpse of Xander falling, and you're
not sure if he was pushed or shot. I'm sure that was deliberate. When I
first saw it, for a split second I thought, "Holy shit, *Xander* is the
one who gets killed!"
>I think you misunderstood what I meant in an earlier post. I don't think
>that was the first time Warren fired a gun, and I thought his aim was
>pretty good under the circumstances. Much better than I could do.
>That's what makes his two final wild shots so hard to understand. He
>should have either finished the job, or just turned to run away.
Oh, in that case, I *did* misunderstand you. Sorry about that! I'll try
not to make it a habit. ;) But I don't find those wild parting shots
hard to understand. They can be attributed to Warren being caught up in
the excitement, if nothing else.
>The shooting scene doesn't bother me as much as the fact that neither
>Tara or Willow reacted to the sound of the gunfire. At the very least,
>Tara's head should have turned toward the direction of the sound. That
>would be and instinctive reaction.
I agree with you there. However, I can fan-wank it away: if Tara didn't
recognize the sounds as gunshots, in her mind the noise might not have
seemed threatening, so it couldn't divert her attention from whatever
Willow was saying. At any rate, it doesn't bother me enough to detract
from the scene.
Christopher Gross
wound up posting a bunch of garbage from a temp file. I cancelled it, but
if anyone sees it anyway, my apologies.
In article <3CDAAFBE...@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
I agree. Just to be clear, I think it's very plausible that he didn't
pause to aim carefully. In fact it would be less believable if he
did. Same thing with his shooting speed.
>> I also still think I was right about Buffy getting hit. Although Warren
>> wasn't aiming carefully, Buffy was less than 20 feet away. At that range,
>> it's not implausible that Warren hit her with one of his first three
>> shots.
>
>It had to be the second or third. After the first shot Buffy turned and
>pushed Xander out of the way. You can't see that without slow motion.
At normal speed, you catch a glimpse of Xander falling but can't tell if
he was shot or just pushed down. This was surely deliberate. The first
time I saw it, for a split second I thought "Holy shit! The big Scooby
death is *Xander*!"
>I think you misunderstood what I meant in an earlier post. I don't think
>that was the first time Warren fired a gun, and I thought his aim was
>pretty good under the circumstances. Much better than I could do.
>That's what makes his two final wild shots so hard to understand. He
>should have either finished the job, or just turned to run away.
Ah, in that case I *did* misunderstand you. Sorry about that! I'll try
not to make it a habit. ;) But I personally don't find Andrew's last wild
firing hard to understand. He had already fired quickly, without aiming
carefully, because he was riled up, nervous and excited, so I think he
fired those last shots while running away for the same reason.
>The shooting scene doesn't bother me as much as the fact that neither
>Tara or Willow reacted to the sound of the gunfire. At the very least,
>Tara's head should have turned toward the direction of the sound. That
>would be and instinctive reaction.
That bothers me a little, too, but I can fan-wank around it. Maybe if
Tara didn't recognize the sounds as gunshots, her mind didn't find the
noise threatening, so even though she heard the noise it wasn't enough to
take her attention away from whatever Willow was saying. (They were
probably sharing happy thoughts about the gang all being together again
when the bullet hit.) Anyway, it doesn't bother me enough to detract from
the scene.
Sam7777
Um You didn't repaly to any of the stuff that I wrote.
Ken Arromdee
>Death usually doesn't have meaning. I loved the fact that they killed her
>off in such a sudden unexpected fashion. I'm tired of shows that always have
>to have a big caracter die when doing something heroic.
The "unexpected death" is itself a cliche. Look at how Tessa died on
Highlander, for instance.
--
Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible
things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be
fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"
Ken Arromdee
Tara was given a place in the credits specifically so that a person in the
credits could be killed off, which doesn't really count. She wasn't
normally a person in the credits.
David Milligan
> Tara was given a place in the credits specifically so that a person in the
> credits could be killed off, which doesn't really count. She wasn't
> normally a person in the credits.
> --
Is she going to be in the credits for the final two eps?
Estron
> Putting Tara in the opening theme song was a cruel, heartless
> deception on the part of Joss Whedon.
Wasn't much of a deception. Anyone who suddenly sees Amber in the
credits is going to be expecting something to be up with her.
> Tara's death did NOT have meaning!
>
> It was empty, a death without purpose, kind of like Tasha Yar.
Which was more or less the point. Bad things happen to good people
> I'm watching next Tuesday, but, if Tara dies, I'm losing all respect
> for the series.
You know, the next episode is already made, and won't be changed for
you. You can save the trouble of waiting and find out at The Buffy
Cross and Stake. But I think all you really want to do is argue.
> I refuse to support Joss. I'm not buying the DVDs or anything else
> related to the show.
And _that's_ going to make a difference to someone, I'm sure. After
that, are you going to hold your breath until you turn blue, or go out
into the garden and eat worms?
> If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> and put the show out of its miserable existence.
I believe it's already been renewed.
--
All opinions expressed are exactly that.
Pax vobiscum.
est...@tfs.net
Kansas City, Missouri
Don Sample
<chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
Everything about the way Warren used that gun said that he wasn't an
experienced shooter. He may have never fired a real gun before in his
life. The directions in the script for the shooting go:
Before she can react he raises a black automatic handgun and
opens fire, the violence of bullets exploding from the muzzle
startling even him.
Timothy A. McDaniel
Christopher Gross <chr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>In article <3CD93A10...@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com>
>wrote:
>>She was far enough away from the window that a bullet fired from the
>>yard one story down should have hit the ceiling, but not Tara.
>
>You might be right there, I'll have to review the tape. It depends
>on how far Warren was from the house and what angle the gun was at
>when he fired.
Ah -- there was a second gunman. We'll need to investigate it, with a
Warren commission.
--
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@us.ibm.com is my work account.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything
up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka....@hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
Timothy A. McDaniel
Timothy A. McDaniel <tm...@jump.net> wrote:
>Ah -- there was a second gunman. We'll need to investigate it, with a
>Warren commission.
Mea gulpa, mea gulpa, mea maxima gulpa! I should have read the group
before posting -- should have realized taht at least one regular
poster would make such a joke before I did. Sorry.
meatpie
news:8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com...
> What the hell was up with this episode?
*SNIP*
> If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
> the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
> the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
> and put the show out of its miserable existence.
>
>
> Mark
Just as a side note, there is no logging involved in being a Nielson Family.
They come in, hook up their equipment and it monitors what you watch, then
dials out on your phone line in the middle of the night to give the info to
the Nielson servers. Just FYI.
meatpie
--
mea...@mSePaAtMpSiUeX.org
Heey! MEATPIE!!
-Sheila, "School Hard"
Rev. Cyohtee - O'kōhome Ehohatse
issued forth:
>"Mark Moore" <rory_ll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8d108ea4.02050...@posting.google.com...
>> What the hell was up with this episode?
>
>*SNIP*
>
>> If there are any members of the Nielson Family in this group who feel
>> the same way I do, I suggest you not log when you watch the show. Let
>> the ratings go down. Maybe they'll cancel it at the end of this season
>> and put the show out of its miserable existence.
>>
>>
>> Mark
>
>Just as a side note, there is no logging involved in being a Nielson Family.
>They come in, hook up their equipment and it monitors what you watch, then
>dials out on your phone line in the middle of the night to give the info to
>the Nielson servers. Just FYI.
>
>
>meatpie
That is just one type of Neilsen Family. In 2000 we were asked by the
Neilsen people to fill out a paper log book stating what shows we
watched for some period of time (I believe it was 2 weeks) and mail
them back. They sent a log book for each person in the house.
--
Cyo cyo...@ucan.foad.org
http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org
Roger Murtaugh: Have you ever met anybody you didn't kill?
Martin Riggs: I haven't killed you, have I?
Al Dobyns
I only got 1 book even though we have 2 tv sets. So
I combined a little of our viewing on the one log book.
I put down BtVS on FX for the weekdays and the rest
was the Olympics (which explains why I missed some of
the episodes on UPN). No electronic boxes or anything
else.
Al