Inconsistent Vampire Invitation Rules
pjmc...@gate.net
SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
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In the Angel episode 5 by 5 Faith beats a guy up, steals his apartment keys
and
breaks in. She gives angel a "open invitation" to come get her.
In Buffy episode "Real Me" (5.02) Buffy claims that only Dawn could have
invited Harmony into her house , because she is the only one with a right to
do so under the rules governing vampires.
So what gives ? Why can a thug who busts into your apartment invite vampires
in,
but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
Seems inconsistent to me.
Steve Palmer
>So what gives ? Why can a thug who busts into your apartment invite
vampires
>in, but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
>Seems inconsistent to me.
The only explanation I can think of is that, since Faith had been sleeping
in the guy's apartment for a few days, she technically counted as a
resident.
Cosmic Ray
by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much like
English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it comes
to title.
--
Ray Lehmann
http://raylehmann.tripod.com
"It is inaccurate to say I hate everything. I'm strongly in favor of common
sense, common honesty and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible
for public office." -- Henry Louis Mencken
<pjmc...@gate.net> wrote in message news:8rftb2$ri4$1...@news.gate.net...
>
> SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
>
>
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> 3
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> 0
> 1
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> In the Angel episode 5 by 5 Faith beats a guy up, steals his apartment
keys
> and
> breaks in. She gives angel a "open invitation" to come get her.
>
> In Buffy episode "Real Me" (5.02) Buffy claims that only Dawn could have
> invited Harmony into her house , because she is the only one with a right
to
> do so under the rules governing vampires.
>
Calvin Byer
Angel couldn't enter the apt until either he was invited, or the father died.
Once Faith killed the guy in "5 by 5", his apt had no owner and could be claimed
by Faith.
Steve Palmer
>Once Faith killed the guy in "5 by 5", his apt had no owner and could be
claimed
>by Faith.
Faith didn't kill him; he was in the hospital, and that's why he didn't come
home during Faith's stay.
Greg Brewer
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I believe it was said that he was in the hospital and not dead.
What I wonder is subdivisions of a house. Angel couldn't come into Buffy's
dorm room without an invite but come into the dorm. So could a vamp go into
someones bedroom if invited into the house? I would guess that the
invitation is implied for parts where the invitor has dominion. So since
Buffy's mom can invite Drac into Buffy's room then inviting him into the
house implies Buffy's room. So if you are in your dorm room and you invite
a vamp in, can you safely hide in your roommate's closet?
Also, they apparently don't need an invite where no one lives. So why did
Ms. Calendar? ask Angel "who invited you"? And how about the hidey hole the
pregnant lady was hiding in? She lived there but didn't invite Angel in.
And I think there has been an episode or two where Wesley invited Angel into
someplace he didn't live. Not sure about that one. And how about that
burrow demon? He entered the victims apartment, the victim appeared to
still be alive, but the fact that he could enter should have told him he was
too late.
Don Sample
wrote:
> Also, Remember the Angel ep where Kate's father was being attacked by
> vamps, and Angel couldn't enter the apt until either he was invited,
> or the father died. Once Faith killed the guy in "5 by 5", his apt
> had no owner and could be claimed by Faith.
He wasn't dead. Just hospitalized.
The bit of rule changing I didn't like was when Von Helsing Jr. tossed
the Bible to Angel, and it burned him. I'm pretty sure we've seen
Angel handling a bible before without difficulties.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://www.synapse.net/~dsample/BBC
Quando omni flunkus moritati
som...@who.hates.junkmail
the power to invite a vamp into anyone's home...
You know, like the way 007 has a "license to kill" in order to
accomplish his goal, it is possible that TPTB may have a rule that
since the slayer is charged with destroying vamps, then she can do
whatever is necessary - even invite a vamp into someone else's home!
Whether or not that is what Joss has in mind, I like the theory
because it is rather clever.
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:56:08 -0500, "Steve Palmer"
<spa...@mdanderson.org> wrote:
>pjmc...@gate.net wrote in message <8rftb2$ri4$1...@news.gate.net>...
>
>
>>So what gives ? Why can a thug who busts into your apartment invite
>vampires
>>in, but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
>>Seems inconsistent to me.
>
som...@who.hates.junkmail
either considered "public" places, or private and owned by the
university. I think that the vamp only needs an invite for a personal
domain... otherwise they would not be able to enter a hotel, a store,
etc. There is clearly a certain amount of "open invitation" implied in
any such locations. Once you get to the actual dorm room, though, that
is considered the domain of its residents.
blac...@jolly-roger.com
<pjmc...@gate.net> wrote:
>
> SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
>
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
>
> In the Angel episode 5 by 5 Faith beats a guy up, steals his
apartment keys
> and
> breaks in. She gives angel a "open invitation" to come get her.
>
> In Buffy episode "Real Me" (5.02) Buffy claims that only Dawn could
have
> invited Harmony into her house , because she is the only one with a
right to
> do so under the rules governing vampires.
>
vampires
> in,
> but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
> Seems inconsistent to me.
We've seen that vamps can't enter occupied hotel rooms without being
asked, so it seems to be a matter who is the actual occupent, not
neccisarily the owner...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Marc Nieporent
Cosmic Ray <lehma...@home.com> claimed:
>I think this is, in real estate, what we'd dub "adverse possession." Whether
>by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
>squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much like
>English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it comes
>to title.
Mere title isn't enough, in fact. Kate's father died, and Angel could
come in. Possession must be _required._ Until Kate claimed the
apartment, it seemed to be vacant.
Or, Joss screwed up on continuity.
Or, maybe, Buffy was just wrong.
--
David M. Nieporent Roberto Petagine for the
niep...@alumni.princeton.edu Hall of Fame
ray...@yahoo.com
I think the whole dominion rule is thrown out the window if demons or
vamps live there. angel has walked in on tons of vamps nests w/out
invitation. even (I think) in situations where humans were held
captive there for food sources. (hence living there)
the demon thing lived there to so that made it so angel could walk in
w/out an invite.
course he was dead at that point so he shouldnt have counted as living
there anymore. but maybe once a demon or vamp lives in a place it
kinda desecrates it for a while making it so any vamp can just walk
in.
just theories.
Tim Bruening
pjmc...@gate.net wrote:
Angel could have gotten the invitation from the beaten up guy (I think Angel
said something about visiting that guy in the hospital).
When Harmony's vampires kidnap Dawn later in the episode, why don't they force
Dawn to invite them in as well?
Tim Bruening
Cosmic Ray wrote:
> I think this is, in real estate, what we'd dub "adverse possession." Whether
> by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
> squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much like
> English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it comes
> to title.
Had Xander been alone in Buffy's house, could he (being in dominion over the
house by virtual of being the only person in the house) have invited Harmony in?
Munch of Ray Lehmann's great questions about why an invading thug like Faith
could invite Angel into a home she had invaded whereas neither Xander nor Anya
could invite Harmony into Buffy's home.
Tim Bruening
Calvin Byer wrote:
> Also, Remember the Angel ep where Kate's father was being attacked by vamps, and
> Angel couldn't enter the apt until either he was invited, or the father died.
> Once Faith killed the guy in "5 by 5", his apt had no owner and could be claimed
> by Faith.
But Faith didn't kill that man!
> Cosmic Ray wrote:
>
> > I think this is, in real estate, what we'd dub "adverse possession." Whether
> > by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
> > squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much like
> > English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it comes
> > to title.
> >
> > --
> > Ray Lehmann
> > http://raylehmann.tripod.com
> >
> > "It is inaccurate to say I hate everything. I'm strongly in favor of common
> > sense, common honesty and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible
> > for public office." -- Henry Louis Mencken
> >
> > <pjmc...@gate.net> wrote in message news:8rftb2$ri4$1...@news.gate.net...
> > >
Greg Brewer
"Tim Bruening" <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:39DC3917...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
Spoilers for "Real Me" (Buffy 5.02) and 5x5 (Angel 1.?)
> Cosmic Ray wrote:
>
> > I think this is, in real estate, what we'd dub "adverse possession."
Whether
> > by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
> > squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much
like
> > English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it
comes
> > to title.
>
> Had Xander been alone in Buffy's house, could he (being in dominion over
the
> house by virtual of being the only person in the house) have invited
Harmony in?
>
> Munch of Ray Lehmann's great questions about why an invading thug like
Faith
> could invite Angel into a home she had invaded whereas neither Xander nor
Anya
> could invite Harmony into Buffy's home.
But Faith was living there. Remember the book store owner's threat.
Something like, "I'm going to put a bed role down here so you can't come in
here."
Mark Nobles
> In article <8rftb2$ri4$1...@news.gate.net>,
> <pjmc...@gate.net> wrote:
> >
> > SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
> >
> > 1
> > 2
> > 3
> > 4
> > 5
> > 6
> > 7
> > 8
> > 9
> > 0
> > 1
> > 2
> > 3
> >
> We've seen that vamps can't enter occupied hotel rooms without being
> asked, so it seems to be a matter who is the actual occupent, not
> neccisarily the owner...
>
We have also seen that they can enter an occupied hotel room without
being asked - Kakistos charged into Faith's Spartan apartment without so
much as a by your leave.
But the way Buffy put it, it was someone who lived there, not the owner.
No one had any problem with Dawn being able to invite Harm in, because
she lives there. If vampires actually required the owner to invite them
in, only bankers would have to worry about vampires, since they own all
the property in the world. Everybody else just makes payments.
--
Harmony has minions?
Thomas
I think that it simply requires that the person has slept there for
a while. Until it feels like home? Faith felt at home in that guys
apartment?
Cosmic Ray
answer them, but I'll give it a shot.
Greg Brewer <nospa...@brewer.net> wrote in message
news:8rg6b6$m63$1...@news.hal-pc.org...
> Maybe spoilers, I don't understand who would be spoiled.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> What I wonder is subdivisions of a house. Angel couldn't come into
Buffy's
> dorm room without an invite but come into the dorm. So could a vamp go
into
> someones bedroom if invited into the house? I would guess that the
> invitation is implied for parts where the invitor has dominion. So since
> Buffy's mom can invite Drac into Buffy's room then inviting him into the
> house implies Buffy's room. So if you are in your dorm room and you
invite
> a vamp in, can you safely hide in your roommate's closet?
I would say yes. The residents of a traditional home have dominion (or
"estate," in their case a permanent, freehold estate) over the entire home.
The invitation thus extends to that entire area over which they hold that
dominion. But in a dormitory, there are public areas, which vamps can
access, and private rooms. Each of the occupants of those rooms has a
different kind of estate, a limited, temporary, leasehold estate over just
the area within their rooms. An invite into one room would not extend to any
other rooms where the occupant did not reside.
> Also, they apparently don't need an invite where no one lives. So why did
> Ms. Calendar? ask Angel "who invited you"?
Was this when he broke into the school?
I've never quite understood why the school, which has no residents claiming
either permanent or temporary occupancy, would be subject to the vampire
rules. A school is a public building. And while there may be rules
established governing allowable behavior in that building, or who may or may
not be admitted and under what terms, it's by no means a "home." It is
possible that jenny had cast a protection spell at some point, perhaps just
over her room, or perhaps over the entire school, and didn't count on the
Latin greeting trumping that spell.
And how about the hidey hole the
> pregnant lady was hiding in? She lived there but didn't invite Angel in.
I have no GOOD explanation from that. It was a public space that she lived
in, yes, and she was doing something illegal by holing away there, and she
never had clear title to the space --- but neither did Faith in the example
that was given earlier. Perhaps it's simply that, in Faith's case, dominion
over the apartment was TRANSFERED to the hospitalized gent, to her, while in
the pregnant woman's case, dominion was already granted to the public, and
there was no title to transfer, so she had no standing to establish a
private corner of what was already a public space. Strikes me as convoluted,
but it's the best explanation I can offer.
> And I think there has been an episode or two where Wesley invited Angel
into
> someplace he didn't live. Not sure about that one.
Don't recall that ever happening.
And how about that
> burrow demon? He entered the victims apartment, the victim appeared to
> still be alive, but the fact that he could enter should have told him he
was
> too late.
My understanding, though perhaps I'm missing something, is that this
restriction only binds vampires, not other demons. There have certainly been
demons that have broken into any number of homes (think about those that
busted through Xander's walls when he became a "magnet" for them) over the
years.
Cosmic Ray
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer,alt.tv.angel
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Vampire Invitation Rules
> We've seen that vamps can't enter occupied hotel rooms without being
> asked, so it seems to be a matter who is the actual occupent, not
> neccisarily the owner...
I know I'm probably boring people with stuff, but when it comes to real
property, or real estate, people refer to what is known as a "bundle" of
property rights, each implying various degress of ownership. I can have an
easement on someone else's land, for instance, that allows me to cross it,
and that's a small kind of ownership, but that easement wouldn't let me, for
instance, cut down trees on the property, or enter the house without
permission.
An owner of a hotel, like an owner of an apartment building or dorm, has a
freehold estate in that building, and can then dole out limited leases that
allow others a more limited kind of ownership of different areas of the
building. A guest in a hotel room does not have free and clear title to do
whatever they like, but they have contracted to purchase a smaller bundle of
property rights, which, for instance, let them dictate who may or may not
enter their room, and on what conditions.
To establish the difference between that, and Xander and Anya babysitting
over at the Summers home, X and A did NOT get any kind of leasehold estate.
What they received from Mrs. Summers when she invited them into their home
is a "license," which permits them to enter for a period of time solely
determined by the owner, but gives them NONE of the rights of ownership. In
this case, it's an informal license, agreed to orally, with no exchange of
money (presumably, though perhaps Xander was paid for his time.) A license
can also be formal and involve a written contract, as in when you purchase a
ticket to a concert. On the back, written in legalese, are the terms and
conditions of your license, which allow you to enter and enjoy the space for
a certain period of time, but give you none of the rights of ownership.
And I swear I'm not usually this boring! :-)
Ray Lehmann
http://raylehmann.tripod.com
"It is inaccurate to say I hate everything. I'm strongly in favor of common
sense, common honesty and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible
for public office." -- Henry Louis Mencken
> > 6
> > 7
> > 8
> > 9
> > 0
> > 1
> > 2
> > 3
> >
> > In the Angel episode 5 by 5 Faith beats a guy up, steals his
> apartment keys
> > and
> > breaks in. She gives angel a "open invitation" to come get her.
> >
> > In Buffy episode "Real Me" (5.02) Buffy claims that only Dawn could
> have
> > invited Harmony into her house , because she is the only one with a
> right to
> > do so under the rules governing vampires.
> >
> > So what gives ? Why can a thug who busts into your apartment invite
> vampires
> > in,
> > but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
> > Seems inconsistent to me.
>
> We've seen that vamps can't enter occupied hotel rooms without being
> asked, so it seems to be a matter who is the actual occupent, not
> neccisarily the owner...
>
>
B. Richardson
Faith wasn't living there; it wasn't her home. She was just using it as a base
for a few days until she could get Angel. Afterward, I'm sure she would have
moved on. All she did was spend a few nights there and if that's the criteria,
then Xander should have been able to invite Harmony in seeing as how he's
stayed over at Buffy's house on several occasions.
That apartment did not belong to Faith, it was not her home. It was the guy's
home and he was still alive in the hospital. If someone like Faith can just
beat the hell out of someone and/or break into his place and then successfully
invite vampires in, I don't see why all the other vampires don't just pay some
lowlife or homeless guy to break into ANYONE's home when they want in and then
invite them inside.
The fans can come up with all the rationalizations they want but the Buffy and
Angel shows have contradicted themselves so often on this issue that there's
really no saving it at this point. (Anybody remember the vampires that seemed
to have no problem breaking into Buffy's dorm room in Freshman but Angel
needing her to invite him in?)
Bottom line: the writers have just screwed up. It happens.
Mark Nobles
[giant snip]
>A license
> can also be formal and involve a written contract, as in when you purchase a
> ticket to a concert. On the back, written in legalese, are the terms and
> conditions of your license,
So not only are all vampires adept in martial arts, but they are also
lawyers. Sheesh. No wonder they are picky about who they swap bodily
fluids with.
--
Harmony has minions?
Greg Brewer
news:jo3D5.35625$ib7.5...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
> First wanted to say, very good questions, Greg. I don't know that I can
> answer them, but I'll give it a shot.
>
> Greg Brewer <nospa...@brewer.net> wrote in message
> news:8rg6b6$m63$1...@news.hal-pc.org...
> > Maybe spoilers, I don't understand who would be spoiled.
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> And how about the hidey hole the
> > pregnant lady was hiding in? She lived there but didn't invite Angel
in.
>
> I have no GOOD explanation from that. It was a public space that she lived
> in, yes, and she was doing something illegal by holing away there, and she
> never had clear title to the space --- but neither did Faith in the
example
> that was given earlier. Perhaps it's simply that, in Faith's case,
dominion
> over the apartment was TRANSFERED to the hospitalized gent, to her, while
in
> the pregnant woman's case, dominion was already granted to the public, and
> there was no title to transfer, so she had no standing to establish a
> private corner of what was already a public space. Strikes me as
convoluted,
> but it's the best explanation I can offer.
I'm not sure there can be a really good rule for public space converted for
private use. Let's say that there's a bus station and someones bus won't be
there until morning so he unrolls his sleeping bag on sleeps. Vamp goes to
enter and can't, someone is -- arguably -- living there. Bus stations may
be privately or publicly owned. Not too different from what the shop owner
was threatening when he thought he was yelling after Angel. In neither case
was the area owned by the individual sleeping there.
As far as Faith's motel room was concerned, wasn't she behind on paying for
it. The proprietor was with them, albeit dead, when she was attacked so
maybe she was officially evicted.
>
> > And I think there has been an episode or two where Wesley invited Angel
> into
> > someplace he didn't live. Not sure about that one.
>
> Don't recall that ever happening.
I recall 2 instances where it happened. One was when Angel told him
"crashing another Vamp's lair is no problem." I can't remember the details
of the second. I think it was the episode with Barney the empath demon.
Didn't Wesley have to invite Angel in. Funny if I remember correctly since
Wesley didn't live there and it wasn't a human's abode.
> And how about that
> > burrow demon? He entered the victims apartment, the victim appeared to
> > still be alive, but the fact that he could enter should have told him he
> was
> > too late.
>
> My understanding, though perhaps I'm missing something, is that this
> restriction only binds vampires, not other demons. There have certainly
been
> demons that have broken into any number of homes (think about those that
> busted through Xander's walls when he became a "magnet" for them) over the
> years.
I think you misunderstand. My memory is not that great. Angel arrives at
the apartment where he thinks the next victim is to be killed. We know that
he's too late. I'm thinking that it is the victims apartment. He enters
the apartment. That should have told him he was too late. If he were still
alive, he couldn't get in. But maybe I'm wrong and they were in the last
victim's apartment in which case Angel knew he was too late.
Greg
Cosmic Ray
apartment was the owner of the apartment building (unless we are to assume
it wasn't technically an apartment, but a condominium, in which case he
could OWN the apartment himself.)
In any case, I think the rules have to do with residency, more than pure
ownership. Dawn did not own the Summers home, but she had established
residency there, and so was empowered to invite vamps in.
Ray Lehmann
http://raylehmann.tripod.com
"It is inaccurate to say I hate everything. I'm strongly in favor of common
sense, common honesty and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible
for public office." -- Henry Louis Mencken
----- Original Message -----
From: Calvin Byer <cb...@agency.com>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer,alt.tv.angel
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Vampire Invitation Rules
H.G.Hettinger
<btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Faith wasn't living there; it wasn't her home. She was just using it as a base
>for a few days until she could get Angel. Afterward, I'm sure she would have
>moved on. All she did was spend a few nights there and if that's the criteria,
>then Xander should have been able to invite Harmony in seeing as how he's
>stayed over at Buffy's house on several occasions.
>
>That apartment did not belong to Faith, it was not her home. It was the guy's
>home and he was still alive in the hospital. If someone like Faith can just
>beat the hell out of someone and/or break into his place and then successfully
>invite vampires in, I don't see why all the other vampires don't just pay some
>lowlife or homeless guy to break into ANYONE's home when they want in and then
>invite them inside.
But the guy wasn't dead, he was in the hospital. All Angel had to do
was go over there (or even just call) and say: "Hi, my name's Angel.
I'm a Private Investigator after the girl that just beat you up so
brutally. We think that she might have taken over your apartment as
her new base of operations, since she took your keys. I'd like to go
over there and take a look around - if you don't have no objections?"
If the guy says yes, that would likely constitute a viable invitation.
>
>The fans can come up with all the rationalizations they want but the Buffy and
>Angel shows have contradicted themselves so often on this issue that there's
>really no saving it at this point. (Anybody remember the vampires that seemed
>to have no problem breaking into Buffy's dorm room in Freshman but Angel
>needing her to invite him in?)
>
>Bottom line: the writers have just screwed up. It happens.
Sure they do. Just look at the contradictory dates we have been given
for Angel's age.
hgh
H.G.Hettinger
>In article <8rftb2$ri4$1...@news.gate.net>,
> <pjmc...@gate.net> wrote:
>>
>> SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
>>
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 4
>> 5
>> 6
>> 7
>> 8
>> 9
>> 0
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>>
>We've seen that vamps can't enter occupied hotel rooms without being
>asked, so it seems to be a matter who is the actual occupent, not
>neccisarily the owner...
When did we see that? I though we saw the exact oposite. Angelus was
able to walk into Enyos' hotel room without an invitation. Kakistos
seemed to have no problem getting into Faith's motel room.
A more obvious screw up happened in 'Angel' in S1 where one of the
Three was able to stick his arm into Buffy's house, while later we see
vampires bounce off what amoounts to an invisible and unpassable wall
when they try to enter a house.
hgh
AB/LB
>
>
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> 0
> 1
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>
The man she beat up was a pimp who may not have been the permanent
dweller of that apartment. Perhaps he was running from the law himself or
perhaps Pimps are consdiered evil, have forfeited their own souls, and no
longer have certain forms of protection from vampires..
Amy J.
"David Marc Nieporent" <niep...@shell.monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:8rgi90$qin$1...@shell.monmouth.com...
Whether
> >by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
> >squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much like
> >English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it
comes
> >to title.
>
> come in. Possession must be _required._ Until Kate claimed the
> apartment, it seemed to be vacant.
>
> Or, Joss screwed up on continuity.
>
> Or, maybe, Buffy was just wrong.
OR maybe Buffy was just being a bitch to Dawn because she knew it was Dawn.
Especially since Xander wouldn't invite someone in when he knew they were a
vamp.
K.B. Lamke
Cosmic Ray wrote:
> I think this is, in real estate, what we'd dub "adverse possession." Whether
> by hook or by crook, Faith had claimed dominion over the home, much as a
> squatter might "homestead" a piece of land. It would seem TPTB, much like
> English torts, consider current possession 9/10ths of the law when it comes
> to title.
>
> --
> Ray Lehmann
> http://raylehmann.tripod.com
>
It might also involve the 'rules of engagement' or conquest.
Faith went into combat with an opponent (granted said
opponent was not aware) and bested said opponent. Under
certain traditions she is allowed to take possesion of
his, um, possessions.
K.B.Lamke
liv
(snip)
>The bit of rule changing I didn't like was when Von Helsing Jr. tossed
>the Bible to Angel, and it burned him. I'm pretty sure we've seen
>Angel handling a bible before without difficulties.
=========
I don't remember one way or the other, but it wouldn't matter, I
imagine, if the bible was a bible that had been blessed or used in the
performance of sacraments (or some such nonsense). I can see ways
around that one.
liv
l...@garbage.ziplink.net
take out the garbage to reply...
If you can't beat your computer at chess try kickboxing.
W. Rose
Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>
> pjmc...@gate.net wrote:
>
> > SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
> >
> > 1
> > 2
> > 3
> > 4
> > 5
> > 6
> > 7
> > 8
> > 9
> > 0
> > 1
> > 2
> > 3
> >
apartment keys
> > and
> > breaks in. She gives angel a "open invitation" to come get her.
> >
> > In Buffy episode "Real Me" (5.02) Buffy claims that only Dawn could
have
> > invited Harmony into her house , because she is the only one with a
right to
> > do so under the rules governing vampires.
> >
> > So what gives ? Why can a thug who busts into your apartment invite
vampires
> > in,
> > but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
> > Seems inconsistent to me.
>
think Angel
> said something about visiting that guy in the hospital).
>
> When Harmony's vampires kidnap Dawn later in the episode, why don't
they force
> Dawn to invite them in as well?
>
Te same reason they didn't bite her... "That's not the plan..."
Estron
> Anybody remember the vampires that seemed to have no problem breaking into
> Buffy's dorm room in Freshman but Angel needing her to invite him in?
Was it ever established that Kathy, Buffy's roommate at the time, could
not have invited them in?
--
As always, all opinions are just that.
Pax vobiscum.
est...@tfs.net
Kansas City, Missouri
B. Richardson
> B. Richardson wrote:
>
> > Anybody remember the vampires that seemed to have no problem breaking into
> > Buffy's dorm room in Freshman but Angel needing her to invite him in?
>
> Was it ever established that Kathy, Buffy's roommate at the time, could
> not have invited them in?
They broke in when no one was there. A whole gang of them.
It strains credibility to say that Kathy might have invited Sunday's whole gang
into their dorm room earlier in the day.
As I said before, there's really no "explaining" the invitation rule at this
point. It's just an example of extremely poor continuity and lack of attention
to detail on the part of the writers.
Nimrod13
*living* in a home--where they *own* it or not. Hence Faith can invite Angel
into that apartment, while Xander cannot invite Harmony into the Summers house.
Likewise any invitation will do, even if elaborate ("Why don't you stop by
sometime?" or "When I get a place, you're invited." or even "I'll see you later
in my library.").
Nimrod13
ray...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:10:28 -0500, "Greg Brewer"
> <nospa...@brewer.net> wrote:
>
> >Maybe spoilers, I don't understand who would be spoiled.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >a vamp in, can you safely hide in your roommate's closet?
> >
> >Also, they apparently don't need an invite where no one lives. So why did
> >Ms. Calendar? ask Angel "who invited you"? And how about the hidey hole the
> >pregnant lady was hiding in? She lived there but didn't invite Angel in.
Tim Bruening
Nimrod13 wrote:
> I'd make the point that the "invitation" must come from someone actually
> *living* in a home--where they *own* it or not. Hence Faith can invite Angel
> into that apartment, while Xander cannot invite Harmony into the Summers house.
> Likewise any invitation will do, even if elaborate ("Why don't you stop by
> sometime?" or "When I get a place, you're invited." or even "I'll see you later
> in my library.").
But Faith wasn't the legal resident of that apartment? How can she have the
authority to invite a vampire in?
Munch of questions about how Faith can invite a vampire into an apartment she has
commandeered, and why Xander can't invite a vampire into Buffy's home.
Don Sample
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
Vampires don't care about legalities. The important thing may have
been that Faith *was* living there.
Or maybe the previous occupant had been gone long enough that as far a
vampires were concerned no one was living there.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://www.synapse.net/~dsample/BBC
Quando omni flunkus moritati
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 10/8/00 3:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <39E01DAC...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>
>Spoilers for Real Me, 5x5:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Nimrod13 wrote:
>
>> I'd make the point that the "invitation" must come from someone actually
>> *living* in a home--where they *own* it or not. Hence Faith can invite
>Angel
>> into that apartment, while Xander cannot invite Harmony into the Summers
>house.
>> Likewise any invitation will do, even if elaborate ("Why don't you stop by
>> sometime?" or "When I get a place, you're invited." or even "I'll see you
>later
>> in my library.").
>
>But Faith wasn't the legal resident of that apartment? How can she have the
>authority to invite a vampire in?
What does legality have to do with it? I think the point was that, regardless
of how it came to be, Faith was living in the apartment. Similarly, Dawn
doesn't really belong in Buffy's house, but she still has invitation powers.
>Munch of questions about how Faith can invite a vampire into an apartment she
>has
>commandeered, and why Xander can't invite a vampire into Buffy's home.
Easy. Xander does not, and has never, lived in Buffy's house. Not even
illegally.
Tim Bruening
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <39E01DAC...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening
> <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> > Spoilers for Real Me, 5x5:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nimrod13 wrote:
> >
> > > I'd make the point that the "invitation" must come from someone actually
> > > *living* in a home--where they *own* it or not. Hence Faith can invite
> > > Angel
> > > into that apartment, while Xander cannot invite Harmony into the Summers
> > > house.
> > > Likewise any invitation will do, even if elaborate ("Why don't you stop by
> > > sometime?" or "When I get a place, you're invited." or even "I'll see you
> > > later
> > > in my library.").
> >
> > But Faith wasn't the legal resident of that apartment? How can she
> > have the authority to invite a vampire in?
> >
> > Munch of questions about how Faith can invite a vampire into an
> > apartment she has commandeered, and why Xander can't invite a vampire
> > into Buffy's home.
>
> Vampires don't care about legalities. The important thing may have
> been that Faith *was* living there.
>
> Or maybe the previous occupant had been gone long enough that as far a
> vampires were concerned no one was living there.
The previous occupant had only been gone a few days, and had every intention of
returning, and is also the legal resident of that apartment, so how can the
apartment be empty for the purposes of vampire entry?
B. Richardson
Because otherwise there's no way for the fans to explain the writers' apalling
inconsistency on this issue.
B. K. Schoonover
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
>
> > In article <39E01DAC...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening
> > <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> > > Spoilers for Real Me, 5x5:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
I am of the opinion that Faith became a resident of that apartment by
force. She seized with force, from the previous occupant, the right to
claim it as her own. It may not by nice, but purchasing a thing isn't
the only way to make it your own.
Brian
Tim Bruening
pjmc...@gate.net wrote:
> SPoilers for episode 5.2 of Buffy.
>
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
>
> In the Angel episode 5 by 5 Faith beats a guy up, steals his apartment keys
> and
> breaks in. She gives angel a "open invitation" to come get her.
>
> In Buffy episode "Real Me" (5.02) Buffy claims that only Dawn could have
> invited Harmony into her house , because she is the only one with a right to
> do so under the rules governing vampires.
>
> So what gives ? Why can a thug who busts into your apartment invite vampires
> in, but not hired help (Xander&Anya) ?
> Seems inconsistent to me.
If the Summers were to go on summer vacation and ask Xander to house sit, would
Xander be able to invite vampires into Buffy's house?
Tracker
fictional TV show. If allowing Xander to invite them in works for the plot,
then the writers will allow him to do so.news:39E29F20...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
jinx
----------
In article <bks-E35442.2...@news.earthlink.net>, "B. K.
Schoonover" <b...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
In the scene before Angel enters the apartment where Faith is he asks what
hospital the first guy who Faith assaulted was taken to.
Presumably either :
a) the guy died
b) the guy was in a coma which is good enough to activae the "if the
inhabitant is dead a vampire may enter" clause.
c) Angel said "Mind if I go to your apartment and kick the ass of the bitch
who did this to you?"
JinX
pjmc...@gate.net
B. Richardson <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39E0F588...@ix.netcom.com...
> Because otherwise there's no way for the fans to explain the writers'
apalling
> inconsistency on this issue.
Actually, there is.
As Vocah said, the Old Order passes away.
So basically, the supernatural balance that resulted in whatever set of
rules we started with
is now shifting, producing a new set of rules.
B. Richardson
> > If the Summers were to go on summer vacation and ask Xander to house sit, would
> > Xander be able to invite vampires into Buffy's house?
>
> Only if he lived there. In other words, slept and ate there.
But that's just as arbitrary as anything else. Who says the definition of "living"
somewhere is sleeping and eating? I rarely eat at my own apartment. I eat out almost
every night. So do I not live in my own home? If vampires were real would that mean
they could enter my place without an invite because I neglected to ingest food there
enough times?
Faith didn't anymore "live" in that guy's apartment than I did. She used it as a
base over the course of the one or two days that she was hunting for Angel. The
rightful owner was still alive and she logically had no intention of staying there
after dusting Angel since she'd have to know she'd be caught eventually if she did.
That apartment was just a place to stash her stuff while she hunted, nothing more.
Certainly not her residence and certainly not to the point where she'd be able to
invite a vampire in when Xander could not at Buffy's house. Xander has almost
certainly slept and ate more at Buffy's place than Faith did in that apartment and I
would wager Buffy's house "felt more like home" to him than the apartment did to
Faith.
No matter how you look at it, these "rules" make no sense. The writers have dropped
the ball. Period.
>
>
> -Mrk
Tim Bruening
jinx wrote:
> In the scene before Angel enters the apartment where Faith is he asks what
> hospital the first guy who Faith assaulted was taken to.
> Presumably either :
> a) the guy died
> b) the guy was in a coma which is good enough to activae the "if the
> inhabitant is dead a vampire may enter" clause.
> c) Angel said "Mind if I go to your apartment and kick the ass of the bitch
> who did this to you?"
In which episode is it revealed that a vampire may enter a person's home
uninvited if said person is in a coma?
Mark Grismer
-Mrk
jinx
----------
In article <39E3FE50...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
It hasn't been said, I'm suggesting that it is a possible loophole in the
rule if a coma is viewed as a semi-death like state.
JInX
Mark Grismer
> somewhere is sleeping and eating? I rarely eat at my own apartment. I eat out almost
> every night. So do I not live in my own home? If vampires were real would that mean
> they could enter my place without an invite because I neglected to ingest food there
> enough times?
>
> Faith didn't anymore "live" in that guy's apartment than I did. She used it as a
> base over the course of the one or two days that she was hunting for Angel. The
> rightful owner was still alive and she logically had no intention of staying there
> after dusting Angel since she'd have to know she'd be caught eventually if she did.
> That apartment was just a place to stash her stuff while she hunted, nothing more.
> Certainly not her residence and certainly not to the point where she'd be able to
> invite a vampire in when Xander could not at Buffy's house. Xander has almost
> certainly slept and ate more at Buffy's place than Faith did in that apartment and I
> would wager Buffy's house "felt more like home" to him than the apartment did to
> Faith.
>
> No matter how you look at it, these "rules" make no sense. The writers have dropped
> the ball. Period.
>
Most likely. It would be better if they had come up with a ruleset
first, but I'm going to add my personal theory (which I am, I admit,
making up right here and now):
Vampires are creatures of the night, there is a mystical bond of some
sort between them and the night. Or more specifically, a mystical
conflict between them and daylight. What else do we know about the cycle
of night and day? For humans it means sleep, perchance to dream.
Personally I believe that while the 'resident' sleeps and dreams he/she
establishes dominion over the 'residence' within his/her private
dreamworld. Establishing a personal territory of sorts.
The dreamworld is a complex and difficult to understand thing, it is
extremely mallable and appears to be governed more by emotions then by
physics. When a person sleeps, and dreams, they develop an emotional
attachment to where they are sleeping, it usually becomes a 'safe zone.'
This is, in many ways, similiar to how 'faith' (not Faith, in this
context) works. A subconscious tap into the human psyche, if you will. A
vampire cannot attack a person of faith with a cross because that
person's psyche screams out against it, thus blocking with concentrated
psychic force (of course, this doesn't work in Buffy, since inanimate
crosses burn as well, apparently blessing is enough). A similiar thing
happens when the vampire attempts to enter the locale that a person has
established as his/her psyche 'safe zone.'
It would seem to me, however, that these zones would have relative
strengths depending on attachments. In the case of the pregnant woman,
she was on the run. Who knows how long she had spent in that cubby.
Perhaps a single night, probably no more then a week. Most likely some
amount of time inbetween. Enough time to establish a 'safe zone'? Sure.
But she would have had to have felt safe there, which seems unlikely. In
the case of the dorms, students would likely establish a 'safe zone' in
their dorm, but depending on how long previous residents had been there
there could certainly be overlapping safe zones. If I recall correctly,
most of the vamps in the first seasons were residents of Sunnyvale
before crossing over, and many had possibly been in the dorms, either by
living there themselves or having been invited in at one point or
another. Also a dorm resident, especially with roomies that aren't
close, is used to strangers coming and going. The barrier would thus be
more permiable.
In regards to Angel asking to be invited in, as I recall when he has
done this he doesn't even attempt to enter first. He could be just
making sure, in some cases the resident may be a demon that he thinks is
human so while he doesn't really need permission he doesn't know that.
So rather then embarrass himself (which, oddly enough, seems to be a
concern for Angel) he asks for the invite.
As for the guy in the hospital: certainly be thrown into the hospital
and/or under general anesthetic could throw the maintenance of the
personal safe
zone into disarray.
Of course, all of this is simply AN explaination. Certainly not THE
explaination, unless of course some of the 'powers that be' read this
and find themselves inspired...
-Mrk
B. Richardson
> ----------
> In article <39E3FE50...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening
> <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> > Spoilers for 5x5:
> >
> > jinx wrote:
>
> >> In the scene before Angel enters the apartment where Faith is he asks what
> >> hospital the first guy who Faith assaulted was taken to.
> >> Presumably either :
> >> a) the guy died
> >> b) the guy was in a coma which is good enough to activae the "if the
> >> inhabitant is dead a vampire may enter" clause.
> >> c) Angel said "Mind if I go to your apartment and kick the ass of the bitch
> >> who did this to you?"
> >
> > In which episode is it revealed that a vampire may enter a person's home
> > uninvited if said person is in a coma?
> >
> It hasn't been said, I'm suggesting that it is a possible loophole in the
> rule if a coma is viewed as a semi-death like state.
Viewed by who?
jinx
<btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> In article <39E3FE50...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >
>> > In which episode is it revealed that a vampire may enter a person's home
>> > uninvited if said person is in a coma?
>> >
>> It hasn't been said, I'm suggesting that it is a possible loophole in the
>> rule if a coma is viewed as a semi-death like state.
>
> Viewed by who?
>
By what/whomever force that holds a vampire outside of a home until they are
invited to enter.
Don't overanalyze this. It's MAGIC and were talking about VAMPIRES here.
JInX
dvd...@webtv.net
was the only one present in the apartment at that time,
While Xander and Anya couldn't invite the vamp into Buffy's home,
because Buffy's mother and Dawn , legal owners of the house, were
present in the house at the time.
dvd...@webtv.net
balance that resulted in whatever set of rules we started with
is now shifting, producing a new set of rules.
I know that's "Angel" you're talking about, but I'll go way out here and
say that the reason is
DAWN!!!! heheheh.
Don Croyle
The episode was from Dawn's point of view, and the way she saw things
isn't necessarily the way they happened. I can believe that she'd
hear:
"You can't invite her in. Only someone who lives here can-"
in place of:
"You wouldn't invite her in. You know better than-"
more readily that I can believe all the legalistic explanations.
--
I've always wanted to be a dilettante, but I've never quite been ready
to make the commitment.
R Lawrence
>The episode was from Dawn's point of view, and the way she saw things
>isn't necessarily the way they happened. I can believe that she'd
>hear:
>
>"You can't invite her in. Only someone who lives here can-"
>
>in place of:
>
>"You wouldn't invite her in. You know better than-"
>
>more readily that I can believe all the legalistic explanations.
There's also the possibility (which I haven't noticed anyone mention in
this thread) that Buffy was simply mistaken about who can invite a vampire
in. There have been a few occasions on the two shows where characters have
*said* things about the invite rules that have turned out to be wrong.