AOQ Review 2-8: "The Dark Age"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 8: "The Dark Age"
(or "Was Giles' old band cooler than The Electras?")
Writers: Dean Batali and Rob Des Hostel
Director: Bruce Seth Green
I don't have a clever opening or summary statement here. Make up
your own.
Obviously the main thrust of this one is about Giles literally facing a
demon from his past. We introduce it all in the most economical manner
possible with that ten-second dream sequence that basically tells us
all we need to know to understand the rest of the show. (Speaking of
well-chosen visual devices, I also like the fade from one scene to
another when Giles starts telling his story, apparently in response to
the conversation in the library.) Although the kids are surprised to
find out that he wasn't always the type who wishes there were more
than twelve grades (hey, that's what college and grad school are
for!), the viewer probably isn't so stunned. Nor is his history
dabbling in magic so outlandish for a character on this show.
Less expected is the way Rupert behaves in response. We're used to
him being the authority figure who holds duty above everything else.
Directing things but always needing help for the actual ass-kicking,
quietly bantering, quietly cultivating his friendship with his Slayer,
quietly enjoying squirming for Jenny Calendar, and so on. We're not
used to him missing an important (aren't they all?) vampire-related
event, sure, but even more so, we don't expect him to then
transparently deny that anything's wrong, when a moron could tell
that something is. Buffy isn't just experiencing the trauma of
realizing that her father-figure drifted around in a cocaine haze until
he was thirty or whatever; she's seeing his past tangibly affecting
him _now_, and him not behaving responsibly about it. So one can see
why she doesn't know what to say when she continues to try to figure
out what's going on, especially after he's suddenly yelling at her
to stay away.
My only real reactions to the blood-collection sequence are that 1)
Buffy narrating her thoughts out loud isn't as clunky as it by all
rights should be, and 2) Apparently Angel sees vampires stealing blood
supplies as a problem. Still no word on where he gets his, but I still
like the immune-to-hepatitis/HIV/etc. theory. Buffy seems a little
hesitant to leave him to handle so much blood, but we're ultimately
seeing some trust here, in the aftermath of "Lie To Me."
Naturally Giles' past comes out before long. And people start
getting killed and possessed. The show takes a gamble in letting the
audience know that Calendar is possessed considerably before the
characters do, and I think it does work to build suspense. Our heroes
don't know exactly how the demon works, after all. And they figure
it out pretty quickly, never seeming too dim, and then we immediately
cut to the phone quietly being unplugged... It's strange that the
monster would make its attack on Giles so overtly sexually-charged
compared to the others. I guess it knew it'd keep him off-balance.
This might also be part of what's responsible for Jenny's avoidant
reaction after she gets her body back.
What's going on also somehow involves Ethan from "Halloween,"
returning sooner than I'd expected. Looking back, I don't recall a
lot actually happening in TDA, and I think it's because a good part
of watching TDA for the first time is wondering what everyone's
motivations are. Ethan is really the one who helps make that work. Is
he plotting something? He obviously isn't a good person, but is he
involved in the monster story or just another victim? He can't be
trusted for long, but should our heroes be paranoid about turning their
backs to him for a millisecond? (Yes.) The way he attacks Buffy
isn't exactly unexpected, but I still didn't pick up on his
tattooing plan. He's a good slimy villain, in part because it's
not hard to believe him: he did kinda like Buffy, and he may even be
capable of tiny amounts of remorse, but he's also far more fond of
self-preservation.
I have to ask, why does the library have a makeshift cage? It's come
into play in two shows now, and I have no idea why it's there.
Sinking feeling alert: (This comes in part from believing I read a
spoiler but not being completely sure I saw what I thought I did.) The
script keeps setting up obvious circumstances that get Xander and
Cordelia physically close to each other. I'm warning you, show, only
madness lies this way...
As much as I love Willow, I'm not so wild about the way she sounds
when she yells (either here or in "Reptile Boy.") But her brains
and Angel's (spiritual) brawn get to save the day, which is always
nice. That's a really... strange solution to a demon problem.
Nothing to add to that.
The ending sequences hit a lot of the right notes. If you like Giles
at all, it's hard not to wince at Calendar's initial
standoffishness, and the rest of the scene isn't much happier.
She's faced death and such before, but did this one break her
interest in these things? I don't see this as an inconsistency, just
a demonstration that you never really know for sure what someone will
or won't be able to handle. Jenny's last "sometime" bit
isn't a flat-out rejection, but it has all the stink of the
ever-popular "indefinite hiatus." Poor Giles. The final exchange
with Buffy would work anyway, but it makes even more sense given that
this episode comes right after "Lie To Me," with all the reversals
in the talk about how grown-ups act and so on. It's strange that
they'd be so eager to get back to loud music, given that the guy from
the beginning may have died because it was too loud...
Ethan is a survivor. It seems he outlived his supernatural plot device
once again. I think it'd be good to see him drop in from time to
time in episodes with totally different styles. What's odd is that
"Halloween" made me think that our favorite Watcher had some
unusual powers, not just an unusual history. I hope there's more
story to come for the two Brits.
Although this one is probably a step down from "Halloween" and
"Lie To Me," it marks the third episode in a row that's left me
feeling good about the series. BTVS hadn't managed three in a row
until now, so this bodes quite well.
So...
One-sentence summary: An interesting look at Giles in dark times
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good
8) "The Dark Age" - Good]
Scythe Matters
> Nor is his history
> dabbling in magic so outlandish for a character on this show.
This is one of the retcons I hinted at earlier. From "The Witch" --
Giles: I assume the, uh, all the spells are reversed. It was my first
casting, so... (inhales) I may have got it wrong.
It's an improvement in the character, as I think you'd agree, but it
_is_ a retcon. (The fanwank, of course, is that he was deliberately
lying in "The Witch" for reasons that should be obvious to you now.)
Thankfully, the show doesn't do this _too_ often...especially now, when
most of the mythology and backstory remains unwritten.
> He's a good slimy villain, in part because it's
> not hard to believe him: he did kinda like Buffy, and he may even be
> capable of tiny amounts of remorse, but he's also far more fond of
> self-preservation.
You're right. From "Halloween" --
Ethan: Chaos. I remain, as ever, thy faithful, degenerate son.
He works badness, but he's not "evil" in the same way, say, Spike is.
That makes him interesting, as a different sort of villain.
> I have to ask, why does the library have a makeshift cage? It's come
> into play in two shows now, and I have no idea why it's there.
My school library had a locked room rather than a cage. In it: computer
equipment (before the days of computer labs, which arrived at my school
during that period), AV equipment, magazines (presumably because of the
likelihood of theft), new/unsorted shipments.
On "Buffy," it's never made clear. In terms of the Buffyverse, maybe the
rare/valuable books go there. In terms of what "we know," however, it's
obviously where the weapons go...can't have them lying around the
library unsupervised.
> Although this one is probably a step down from "Halloween" and
> "Lie To Me," it marks the third episode in a row that's left me
> feeling good about the series.
That's a good way to put it. And this analysis/review was excellent.
Well done.
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have to ask, why does the library have a makeshift cage? It's come
> into play in two shows now, and I have no idea why it's there.
>
Ostensibly, it is where the really valuable or special request books are
kept that cannot be shelved in the stacks for various reasons of
content. Some books would disappear otherwise.
HWL
Espen Schjønberg
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> Nor is his history
>> dabbling in magic so outlandish for a character on this show.
>
>
> This is one of the retcons I hinted at earlier. From "The Witch" --
>
> Giles: I assume the, uh, all the spells are reversed. It was my first
> casting, so... (inhales) I may have got it wrong.
>
> It's an improvement in the character, as I think you'd agree, but it
> _is_ a retcon. (The fanwank, of course, is that he was deliberately
> lying in "The Witch" for reasons that should be obvious to you now.)
Well, that's not fanwank, that's the obvious _truth_. ;-)
After all, he succeded with his "first" spell, and should that spell be
easy? I think not.
He was lying because he didn't want Buff to know how scarred his soul
was by the earlier spells he has done. Naturally, someone there to help
the Slayer is an old warlock himself, protecting the Slayer from doing
the theologically dangerous stuff. He is not the "hero" - hero - he is
some kind of wetwork man.
>> Although this one is probably a step down from "Halloween" and
>> "Lie To Me," it marks the third episode in a row that's left me
>> feeling good about the series.
>
>
> That's a good way to put it. And this analysis/review was excellent.
> Well done.
Well, I have never liked this ep much. And i seem to dislike it the more
if I try to rewatch it :-/
The loud music to make a mans cry for help unheard? Hate it from the
very first scene.
Dark Age is in a sense a chaotic episode. The plan itself seems to be
based on luck. Plus, it doesn't involve Buffy. She is mainly a
troublemaker in this ep.
--
Espen
Mike Zeares
wrote.
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> My only real reactions to the blood-collection sequence are that 1)
> Buffy narrating her thoughts out loud isn't as clunky as it by all
> rights should be [snip]
Heh. I had the same reaction when I rewatched it last week. "This is
clunky. Why doesn't that bother me?"
> Naturally Giles' past comes out before long. And people start
> getting killed and possessed.
Well, people have to make their own fun in Sunnydale.
> I have to ask, why does the library have a makeshift cage? It's come
> into play in two shows now, and I have no idea why it's there.
So people can get trapped in it. Duh. ;-)
> Sinking feeling alert: (This comes in part from believing I read a
> spoiler but not being completely sure I saw what I thought I did.) The
> script keeps setting up obvious circumstances that get Xander and
> Cordelia physically close to each other. I'm warning you, show, only
> madness lies this way...
"Madness, and... Madness a-and stabbing pain, and, a-and, uh...
oh... oh... memory of, uh, i-ill deeds I have done."
> As much as I love Willow, I'm not so wild about the way she sounds
> when she yells (either here or in "Reptile Boy.") But her brains
> and Angel's (spiritual) brawn get to save the day, which is always
> nice. That's a really... strange solution to a demon problem.
> Nothing to add to that.
And it fed the endless debate about the nature of the vampire. Angel
seems to imply that there's a separate demonic entity inside him apart
from his human soul. Which raises all sorts of questions (such as, do
they talk to each other?). Or maybe he was speaking metaphorically.
> Ethan is a survivor. It seems he outlived his supernatural plot device
> once again. I think it'd be good to see him drop in from time to
> time in episodes with totally different styles. What's odd is that
> "Halloween" made me think that our favorite Watcher had some
> unusual powers, not just an unusual history. I hope there's more
> story to come for the two Brits.
I believe there's some fanfic, but it might not be exactly what you're
looking for.
> Although this one is probably a step down from "Halloween" and
> "Lie To Me," it marks the third episode in a row that's left me
> feeling good about the series. BTVS hadn't managed three in a row
> until now, so this bodes quite well.
This little trilogy is one of my favorite parts of the entire series
(combined with RB which has some moments I really like, it makes S2
Disc 2 one of my favorite DVDs). I've seen the early episodes so many
times now that it's getting hard to watch any of them without
fast-forwarding. But I always watch all of these three. Back in S2,
they also served to pull me back into my late S1 level of fandom, after
what I thought were very uneven episodes.
My "completely insane" level of fandom was yet to come.
-- Mike Zeares
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 8: "The Dark Age"
>(or "Was Giles' old band cooler than The Electras?")
>Writers: Dean Batali and Rob Des Hostel
>Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
<SNIP>
>
>I have to ask, why does the library have a makeshift cage? It's come
>into play in two shows now, and I have no idea why it's there.
I never doubted it. I do not think they ever explained it, but I do
believe some libraries (maybe not often in a high school setting)
might just have some valuable tomes hanging around that the librarian
is supposed to care for. Like donated letters of a local author that
happens to be an alumni, that kind of thing.
<SNIP>
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: An interesting look at Giles in dark times
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
>[Season Two so far:
>1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
>2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
>3) "School Hard" - Decent
>4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
>5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
>6) "Halloween" - Good
>7) "Lie To Me" - Good
>8) "The Dark Age" - Good]
OK. I can go for good. For me, this was the episode of the season I
liked the least. It bothered me that they were in my view clumsily
retconning Giles' history. I can get him rejecting his past, but I
always had trouble with this history suggesting almost a
schizophrenia. I later accepted it as a given, I just thought it was
kind of an afterthought that yes began in Halloween, but which I don't
think had been invented until the need for a season 2. It did not feel
as organic to me as other plot developments.
It also bothered me, because I liked the character, that we were
getting this revived unresolved sexual tension between him and Jenny,
although again in retrospect it really became an unresolved
relationship issue that just happened to have sexual overtones.
Rewatching TDA made me dislike it a lot less because it does appear
we're getting all kinds of growth on Buffy's part.
I still don't love the episode, but I don't dislike it either. It's
just not as good as others IMO.
Ken (Brooklyn)
William George Ferguson
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
On the subject of '2)', there was a lot of speculation back in 97 that
Angel being there wasn't so much a noble desire to defend the hospital
supplies from the evol vampires (no, I'm not a Homicide, Life on the
Streets fan, but a lot of long-time posters to this group were, and a
couple of quotes from it have become fixed in the atbvs lexicon), as much
as well, 'everyone knows it's blood delivery night'.
>Naturally Giles' past comes out before long. And people start
>getting killed and possessed. The show takes a gamble in letting the
>audience know that Calendar is possessed considerably before the
>characters do, and I think it does work to build suspense. Our heroes
>don't know exactly how the demon works, after all. And they figure
>it out pretty quickly, never seeming too dim, and then we immediately
>cut to the phone quietly being unplugged... It's strange that the
>monster would make its attack on Giles so overtly sexually-charged
>compared to the others. I guess it knew it'd keep him off-balance.
>This might also be part of what's responsible for Jenny's avoidant
>reaction after she gets her body back.
One of things working there is that Whedon has established with Jesse
getting vamped and Flutie getting eaten that even if you're a recurring
character (aka Ms. Calender), if you aren't one of the core four you're
shirt is pink with the chance of darkening to red. I really expected
Jenny to be killed or vamped in WSWB, and I really thought they were
going to kill her off here.
>What's going on also somehow involves Ethan from "Halloween,"
>returning sooner than I'd expected. Looking back, I don't recall a
>lot actually happening in TDA, and I think it's because a good part
>of watching TDA for the first time is wondering what everyone's
>motivations are. Ethan is really the one who helps make that work. Is
>he plotting something? He obviously isn't a good person, but is he
>involved in the monster story or just another victim? He can't be
>trusted for long, but should our heroes be paranoid about turning their
>backs to him for a millisecond? (Yes.) The way he attacks Buffy
>isn't exactly unexpected, but I still didn't pick up on his
>tattooing plan. He's a good slimy villain, in part because it's
>not hard to believe him: he did kinda like Buffy, and he may even be
>capable of tiny amounts of remorse, but he's also far more fond of
>self-preservation.
Robin Sachs does a wonderful job with Ethan.
>I have to ask, why does the library have a makeshift cage? It's come
>into play in two shows now, and I have no idea why it's there.
That's actually not uncommon in older school libraries. It houses the
the books that the school feels aren't appropriate for students to have
unsupervised access to, but feel too opposed to Grundyism to just not
have. Also, any supplies that are expensive enough that the school
doesn't want them to grow little feet and walk off.
Of course, those cages probably couldn't hold a hyena-possessed student
or a demon-possessed adult.
>As much as I love Willow, I'm not so wild about the way she sounds
>when she yells (either here or in "Reptile Boy.") But her brains
>and Angel's (spiritual) brawn get to save the day, which is always
>nice. That's a really... strange solution to a demon problem.
>Nothing to add to that.
>The ending sequences hit a lot of the right notes. If you like Giles
>at all, it's hard not to wince at Calendar's initial
>standoffishness, and the rest of the scene isn't much happier.
>She's faced death and such before, but did this one break her
>interest in these things? I don't see this as an inconsistency, just
>a demonstration that you never really know for sure what someone will
>or won't be able to handle. Jenny's last "sometime" bit
>isn't a flat-out rejection, but it has all the stink of the
>ever-popular "indefinite hiatus." Poor Giles. The final exchange
>with Buffy would work anyway, but it makes even more sense given that
>this episode comes right after "Lie To Me," with all the reversals
>in the talk about how grown-ups act and so on. It's strange that
>they'd be so eager to get back to loud music, given that the guy from
>the beginning may have died because it was too loud...
There's something here that you missed, or maybe just didn't comment on.
In WSWB, we saw them showing Buffy suffering extreme post traumatic
stress, which should actually be expected given what happeded in Prophecy
Girl, although tv series don't usually carry that kind of consequence
forward (and by the way, back in 97 I didn't believe that Buffy was
completely 'over it' by this point, she just moved to different and more
functional coping mechanisms). In this episode, Jenny experiences the
metaphorical equivalent of rape, a major violation of her very being. The
reaction we see at the end is a very standard reaction of rape victims.
>Although this one is probably a step down from "Halloween" and
>"Lie To Me," it marks the third episode in a row that's left me
>feeling good about the series. BTVS hadn't managed three in a row
>until now, so this bodes quite well.
You know how quickly you picked up on the obvious use of 'Angel' and
'Angelous' to identify old unsouled Angel from new, improved Angel, now
with lemon soul? As a convention, when discussing what we had learned of
young Giles versus current Giles, we started using 'Giles' and 'Rupert'
the same way about at this point.
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: An interesting look at Giles in dark times
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
>[Season Two so far:
>1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
>2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
>3) "School Hard" - Decent
>4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
>5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
>6) "Halloween" - Good
>7) "Lie To Me" - Good
>8) "The Dark Age" - Good]
1) I rate it much higher, and did at the time
2) As River Tam said, that's the general opinion
3) You rate it a little worse than most (but I don't disagree)
4) You rate it a lot higher than most
5) You rate it a little higher than most
6) Again, see the Oracle of River
7) You rate it a little lower than most
8) This is one of the dichotomy, love it/hate it eps
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
vague disclaimer
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> 2) As River Tam said, that's the general opinion
Wasn't it "It's a popular theory"? (in response to "Girl, you ain't
quite right.")
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > Nor is his history
> > dabbling in magic so outlandish for a character on this show.
>
> This is one of the retcons I hinted at earlier. From "The Witch" --
>
> Giles: I assume the, uh, all the spells are reversed. It was my first
> casting, so... (inhales) I may have got it wrong.
>
> It's an improvement in the character, as I think you'd agree, but it
> _is_ a retcon. (The fanwank, of course, is that he was deliberately
> lying in "The Witch" for reasons that should be obvious to you now.)
> Thankfully, the show doesn't do this _too_ often...especially now, when
> most of the mythology and backstory remains unwritten.
Another possibility is that it was Ethan who did the actual casting,
back in the Eyghon days. Giles was still just the research guy.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
> On the subject of '2)', there was a lot of speculation back in 97 that
> Angel being there wasn't so much a noble desire to defend the hospital
> supplies from the evol vampires (no, I'm not a Homicide, Life on the
> Streets fan, but a lot of long-time posters to this group were, and a
> couple of quotes from it have become fixed in the atbvs lexicon), as much
> as well, 'everyone knows it's blood delivery night'.
It's possible that he has an arrangement with someone at the hospital,
to get their old expired blood on the nights that they get their
shipment of fresh blood.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> There's something here that you missed, or maybe just didn't comment on.
[snip]
> In this episode, Jenny experiences the
> metaphorical equivalent of rape, a major violation of her very being. The
> reaction we see at the end is a very standard reaction of rape victims.
Didn't consider it that way before, but it's food for thought.
> You know how quickly you picked up on the obvious use of 'Angel' and
> 'Angelous' to identify old unsouled Angel from new, improved Angel, now
> with lemon soul? As a convention, when discussing what we had learned of
> young Giles versus current Giles, we started using 'Giles' and 'Rupert'
> the same way about at this point.
Which is which?
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Dark Age is in a sense a chaotic episode. The plan itself seems to be
> based on luck. Plus, it doesn't involve Buffy. She is mainly a
> troublemaker in this ep.
Just out of curiousity, why do you see Buffy not being the hero in
every show as a flaw? I like ensamble shows, so I don't see why one
character should always be the star of everything. I know at its core
BTVS is Buffy's show, but the supporting cast deserve some love too.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
> > You know how quickly you picked up on the obvious use of 'Angel' and
> > 'Angelous' to identify old unsouled Angel from new, improved Angel, now
> > with lemon soul? As a convention, when discussing what we had learned of
> > young Giles versus current Giles, we started using 'Giles' and 'Rupert'
> > the same way about at this point.
>
> Which is which?
>
> -AOQ
Actually, I think he means 'Giles' and 'Ripper.' Giles is a mild
mannered librarian, who gets his books, and looks stuff up. Ripper can
be a mean, cold blooded bastard, who'll kick a man when he's down in
order to help protect the people he cares about. (e.g. his treatment of
Ethan in Halloween.)
arnold kim
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139610359.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>> You know how quickly you picked up on the obvious use of 'Angel' and
>> 'Angelous' to identify old unsouled Angel from new, improved Angel, now
>> with lemon soul? As a convention, when discussing what we had learned of
>> young Giles versus current Giles, we started using 'Giles' and 'Rupert'
>> the same way about at this point.
>
> Which is which?
I think by "Rupert" he means "Ripper"- Giles' nickname from his 20s. Older
Giles is Giles, younger Giles is "Ripper".
Arnold Kim
jil...@hotmail.com
Mike Zeares wrote:
> And it fed the endless debate about the nature of the vampire. Angel
> seems to imply that there's a separate demonic entity inside him apart
> from his human soul. Which raises all sorts of questions (such as, do
> they talk to each other?). Or maybe he was speaking metaphorically.
At that point it occurred to me, yes. In being inflicted with his
human soul, Angel now has to deal with both the vampire soul (demon)
and the human soul. The human soul evidently is the more powerful and
holds sway over the personality. But physically, he is still a vampire.
Apteryx
news:ebcpu1dcud9uhpg5e...@4ax.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>So...
>>
>>One-sentence summary: An interesting look at Giles in dark times
>>
>>AOQ rating: Good
>>
>
>
> liked the least. It bothered me that they were in my view clumsily
> retconning Giles' history. I can get him rejecting his past, but I
> always had trouble with this history suggesting almost a
> schizophrenia. I later accepted it as a given, I just thought it was
> kind of an afterthought that yes began in Halloween, but which I don't
> think had been invented until the need for a season 2. It did not feel
> as organic to me as other plot developments.
That is one of the reasons I also don't like The Dark Age so much (although
not the least of Season 2, I rank it 19th in Season 2 and 103rd overall).
There is also the fact that as a story, it just doesn't seem to hang
together that well. And the eventual solution seems to require Angel to risk
his undeath on what is just a hunch.
Apart from the fact of retconning Giles's history there is also the fact of
the new history they give him. There is some character assassination going
on here. Its not so much the worshiping of Eyghon, we've all done a bit of
that at college, but that Bay City Rollers gag at the end is simply
gratuitous.
Oddly enough, despite being in one of may favourite seasons, TDA was the
episode I had watched least often of all BtVS episodes until I included in a
tour of frequently skipped Season 2 episodes at the start of this year.
--
Apteryx
a2zmom
a bit of nice character development for Giles, but it points up
something common to a lot of teenagers. They tend to assume that adults
sprung fully formed from the forehead of Zeus and were never dumbass
teens in their own right.
Sadly, in my opinion, a lot of fandom has seen fit to use this episode
to make some incredilby bizarre assumptions about the characters, the
worst being that Giles has some sort of split personality. Having
lived through the late sixties and early seventies, I can say
unequivacably that a vast majority of my friends were heavy drinkers,
drug users and more than a few were into casual sex. The vast majority
are now responsible, boring type grown-ups with boring type jobs and
boring type married lives. The only difference is that Giles had access
to more dangerous forms of recrational toys, so to speak. People grow
up and while the past certainly informs the present, that isn't all
there is to one.
In fact, one way of loooking at Ethan is he's who Giles would have been
if Giles had decided never to grow up. Because what's more chaotic than
a person in their late teens, early twenties?
The other character that I think people got weird over because of this
ep is Angel. There is no indication at any time that Angel is listening
to "evil demon voices" in his head. I would say he's speaking
metaphorically at the end fight because he doesn't have a demon insside
him - he is a demon, albeit one with a conscience. I just assumed that
during the fight he was basically not thinking, instead running on pure
demonic instinct as it were. Doesn't mean he's an insane nutter
listening to his evil half all the time.
Two last points - that cage is actually called a "book cage" and it's
used to store rare and valuble books, as several others have pointed
out.
Secondly, I always assumed that Angel was hanging around the hospital
because it's a good day and place to take down vamps, since that's what
he does nowadays. Buffy, otoh, isn't completly sure of his motivations.
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> Apart from the fact of retconning Giles's history there is also the fact of
> the new history they give him. There is some character assassination going
> on here. Its not so much the worshiping of Eyghon, we've all done a bit of
> that at college, but that Bay City Rollers gag at the end is simply
> gratuitous.
I think that Giles was making a joke with the Bay City Rollers.
Everything we learn later about his taste in music seems to contradict
that statement.
Apteryx
news:dsample-BA6765...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <BKcHf.141398$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Apart from the fact of retconning Giles's history there is also the fact
>> of
>> the new history they give him. There is some character assassination
>> going
>> on here. Its not so much the worshiping of Eyghon, we've all done a bit
>> of
>> that at college, but that Bay City Rollers gag at the end is simply
>> gratuitous.
>
> I think that Giles was making a joke with the Bay City Rollers.
> Everything we learn later about his taste in music seems to contradict
> that statement.
I was joking about it too. Certainly I have always preferred to take that
remark as a joke. Taking it seriously is just too disturbing.
But I'm actually not quite certain that the writers intended it as that.
What we learn later is hardly a guide to what is meant now, since much of
what learn about Giles in this episode contradicts much of what we knew
before. And even going by what is learned later, there is clearly a
difference between Giles' taste as the young Ripper and as the librarian
Giles. Taking it seriously would be consistent with either the theme of
Buffy's partial disillusionment with Giles (not only can he endanger his
friends, but he also has terrible taste in music) or with Giles' return late
in the episode from cool but unreliable Ripper to safe but nerdy Giles.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
From everything we know about Giles, he would have been in the middle of
his bad-boy Ripper phase when the Bay City Rollers were big, and they
were only big with the teeny-bopper crowd. 'Ripper' would rather have
had his finger nails torn off than admit that he liked the Bay City
Rollers.
Tvyrf vf fubja gb fgvyy unir uvf erpbeq pbyyrpgvba, juvpu, juvyr vg znl
unir fbzr pynffvpny naq bcren va vg, nyfb unf tebhcf yvxr Pernz, naq
Iryirg Haqretebhaq. Ur yvxrf fbatf ol Ylaleq Fxlaleq, naq gur Jub, naq
hfrq gb gryy tveyf ur jnf bar bs gur bevtvany zrzoref bs Cvax Syblq gb
vzcerff gurz.
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Giles now, Rupert then. Also Ripper for then (re Ethan's introduction in
Halloween), and Ripper when badass Giles puts in the odd appearance).
drifter
Musical tastes do change. In high school I had 8-tracks of Olivia
Newton-John and Barry Manilow. Soon, though, Olivia and Barry
fell by the wayside and I started building my library of Jethro Tull,
which I still listen to.
I think what he was doing with the Bay City Rollers remark was letting
Buffy know that she could treat him as the "old" Giles she was familiar
with. Sort of a "Let's move on" nudge.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
John Briggs
>
> Apart from the fact of retconning Giles's history there is also the
> fact of the new history they give him. There is some character
> assassination going on here. Its not so much the worshiping of
> Eyghon, we've all done a bit of that at college, but that Bay City
> Rollers gag at the end is simply gratuitous.
In a sense, it is all retconning, as Joss started out without a "Bible", ie
there was not a backstory worked out beforehand, so they were literally
making it up as they went along. This would be fairly normal for a, er,
normal series, but a bible is pretty well essential for a soap. They did
create a bible later, but only from things that were actually in the
scripts, which didn't really solve the problem. The lack of a bible meant
that when one or other of the writers slipped up with the "You were my sire"
line in "School Hard", no one else noticed.
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
It wasn't that they didn't notice, it was that they thought that keeping
the line was more important than keeping it consistent with the
backstory that they had for the characters. Joss was right there with
his explanation for what Spike really meant when he said that, as soon
as the episode aired.
kenm47
slipped up with the
Shhhhhhhh!
Ken (Brooklyn)
John Briggs
They didn't have a backstory (except possibly in Joss's head) - that was the
whole point. They would have known that they had to come up with an
explanation at the time when it aired, because they were shooting "Lie to
Me" at the time - that was the point at which the inconsistency showed up .
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
I am just pointing out that it is inconsistent with *Drusilla* being sired
by Angelus, as we learned in "Lie to Me".
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
We're straying into Spoiler territory here, So I've changed the subject
line.....
SPOILERS....
They did have a backstory, that they had told to James and Juliet.
During the promotion for season 2 they did interviews as "Spike" and
"Drusilla" that gave some of that backstory, and was contradicted by the
"You were my Sire, man!" line in 'School Hard', which the fans
immediately jumped on at the time. And Joss had his answer ready.
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
How does whoever sired Spike have anything to do with who sired Drusilla?
kenm47
No, it isn't.
Ken (Brooklyn)
John Briggs
> In article <ayrHf.86985$zt1....@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>,
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> kenm47 wrote:
>>> "The lack of a bible meant that when one or other of the writers
>>> slipped up with the
>>> " ********************* " line in "School Hard", no one else
>>> noticed."
>>>
>>>
>>> Shhhhhhhh!
>>
>> I am just pointing out that it is inconsistent with *Drusilla* being
>> sired by Angelus, as we learned in "Lie to Me".
>
> How does whoever sired Spike have anything to do with who sired
> Drusilla?
Because Joss would clearly not have intended them both to have been sired by
Angelus.
--
John Briggs
kenm47
I don't see why not. The pseudo brother/sister relationship would have
only added to the ick factor as sexually active vampires with an incest
spin.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
And when you combine it with the theory that Dru was Angel's sister (Not
disproved yet at this point in the story.) it becomes even better.
a2zmom
possible spoilers:
That was changed not becauae that would have made Angel Dru and Spike's
sire.I've heard tt was changed because the network was bothered by the
homosexual subtext of Angel being Spike's sire. Not that it mattered.
Throughtout season 2, there is a very strong homoerotic underpinning to
the Angel/Spike relationship which only becomes more pronounced as time
goes by.
hopelessly devoted
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
Weeeee!
Patrician
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8CsHf.39115$494....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
I admit that I haven't "studied" the Buffyverse as much as most here have,
and I am under the influence of seven or eight pints of London Pride, but
wasn't Drusilla Spike's Sire?
If so, as Angel was Drusillas Sire then in a round about way he was also
Spikes sire.
Trev
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Major Spoiler!!!!!!! Please move this to a different thread. :)
>
Clairel
Apteryx wrote:
> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ebcpu1dcud9uhpg5e...@4ax.com...
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>So...
> >>
> >>One-sentence summary: An interesting look at Giles in dark times
> >>
> >>AOQ rating: Good
> >>
> >
> >
> > OK. I can go for good. For me, this was the episode of the season I
> > liked the least. It bothered me that they were in my view clumsily
> > retconning Giles' history. I can get him rejecting his past, but I
> > always had trouble with this history suggesting almost a
> > schizophrenia. I later accepted it as a given, I just thought it was
> > kind of an afterthought that yes began in Halloween, but which I don't
> > think had been invented until the need for a season 2. It did not feel
> > as organic to me as other plot developments.
>
> That is one of the reasons I also don't like The Dark Age so much (although
> not the least of Season 2, I rank it 19th in Season 2 and 103rd overall).
> There is also the fact that as a story, it just doesn't seem to hang
> together that well. And the eventual solution seems to require Angel to risk
> his undeath on what is just a hunch.
>
> Apart from the fact of retconning Giles's history there is also the fact of
> the new history they give him. There is some character assassination going
> on here. Its not so much the worshiping of Eyghon, we've all done a bit of
> that at college,
--Ah, so true, so true.
The seventies. It was a different era. Young people these days--they
just don't know.
I was there, though, man. I was an undergraduate from 1974 through
1978. Come to think of it, I probably am exactly the same age Giles is
supposed to be.
Clairel
James Craine
a2zmom wrote:
>
> Secondly, I always assumed that Angel was hanging around the hospital
> because it's a good day and place to take down vamps, since that's what
> he does nowadays. Buffy, otoh, isn't completly sure of his motivations.
>
I believe he also took a pint as his 'payment' for saving
the rest of the shipment. That's ok by me. After all, Saint
Simon would have taken 10%.