Dawn/Dr. Who/spoiler
the Cohens
dimension. In Dr. Who, circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the key to
time, and the seventh part of the key to time was a princess, or a human
being. Thus, the idea of Dawn in Buffy: The Vampire Slayer was taken from
Dr. Who.
ITALTRAV
was an innocent and had to learn everything (Dawn seems way too babyish to me
for a 14 year old, but it makes sense if she is a brand new being.) If some
Egyptian type demons/deities show up, we'll know it's a rip-off of "The Fifth
Element" for sure.
Diana
<< Subject: Dawn/Dr. Who/spoiler
From: the Cohens ste...@earthlink.net
Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2000 22:12
Message-id: <B61BB9A4.2C7F%ste...@earthlink.net>
David M. Sueme
wrote:
You have a keen grasp of the obvious. To me and you - but as to
George Avalos, well, the bell curve is another issue, isn't it?
Dave
Oren Ronen
news:B61BB9A4.2C7F%ste...@earthlink.net...
Sigh.
Yes, the plot from Dr. Who and the current BtVS Dawn plot share some
elements. However, I do not believe for one second that Joss sat down and
conciously copied storylines from other shows.
Look, you can't really have truly original plots anymore. Nearly everything
has been done. I can assure you that not only Dr. Who, but countless other
SF books used similiar themes.
Let's concentrate on what Joss and his writers do with idea. There are
already many interesting differences between the Who plot and the Buffy one,
the main one being that in Buffy the key is made to be the protagonist's
sibling. You should also keep in mind that at this point we don't yet
understand the complete nature of Dawn. Being "The Key" is somewhat vague,
and I'm sure the show will elaborate on the matter in future episodes, and
that it will be quite different from the way Who used the idea.
Sorry about the rant (hey, my first rant! I guess the newsgroup is really
starting to get to me).
Oren Ronen
or...@isdn.net.il
king...@my-deja.com
> > Buffy's sister Dawn is a key to another dimension. In Dr. Who,
> > circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the key to time...Thus, the
Preach one, Brother Oren! I am sick to death of smarty pants fanboys
pointing out how some element of a current series is a rip-off of some
other series, book, movie...whatever.
EVERYTHING has been done before. The fact that the current BTVS plot
has some minor elements that are similar to Dr. Who is COINCIDENCE. The
Mutant Enemy staff has proved time and again that they are great,
original story tellers.
You could say "Wish World, well that's a rip-off of "Mirror Mirror"
from Star Trek." Then someone could counter "Oh, but that's a rip-off
of the Lost In Space where they went to the evil universe", and I'll be
if you do some research and find the Asimov, Bradbury, Ellison or
somebody did it before them! And THEY got the idea from Dr. Jeckyl &
Mr. Hyde!
In another instance, you could take the current storyline: The key to
another dimension (another reality) is given human form. Sounds alot
like the story of Christ to me! He was given human form and had to die
to OPEN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN (another reality)...so I guess the
writers of Dr. Who are ripping off the BIBLE!!!
And by the way...the story of Jesus, is ripped off from Hercules (a god
has a son with a mortal woman, has powers that ordinary men don't, he
performs labors/miracles...)
So there.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David M. Sueme
>Sigh.
>Yes, the plot from Dr. Who and the current BtVS Dawn plot share some
>elements. However, I do not believe for one second that Joss sat down and
>conciously copied storylines from other shows.
Then you are a fool. There have been so many obvious borrowing that
I've utterly lost track - I can't remember the last one, lest the
total of fifty or so...
...but at this point, if there is anyone who doesn't see that the
whole Buffy thing is a borrowing of Yohko Mano, then arrainge a sleep
over with K B Lampke and watch an episode of "Friends" and have a good
time. Just don't choke on a Pepsi bottle cap.
Dave
seriously, I'm not going to perturb my brain cells unless I have a
commitments for some real mea culpa.
Mike Zeares
>
>seriously, I'm not going to perturb my brain cells unless I have a
>commitments for some real mea culpa.
That would presume that you have some that are capable of firing in sequence.
Not much evidence of that lately.
-- Mike Zeares (why not ad hominem him? He never makes any sense anyway.)
Dave Stone
> In Buffy:The Vampire Slayer, Buffy's sister Dawn is a key to another
> dimension. In Dr. Who, circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the key to
> time, and the seventh part of the key to time was a princess ...
Of course, you're missing the point that _Buffy_ *is* _Doctor Who_ -
only the emphasis has been taken off the Doctor (currently going under
the name of Giles) and put on one of his Assistants.
And let's just say that the 'Council' is situated slightly farther
afield than England ...
--
Take care. Have fun. Bring your own Banjo.
http://www.sgloomi.demon.co.uk
Buy the FREE THE FATAL FIVE shirt from:
http://www.cafepress.com/sgloomi/
king...@my-deja.com
dsu...@ais.net (David M. Sueme) wrote:
> On 25 Oct 2000 01:59:15 -0500, "Oren Ronen" <or...@isdn.net.il> wrote:
>
> >Sigh.
> >Yes, the plot from Dr. Who and the current BtVS Dawn plot share some
> >elements. However, I do not believe for one second that Joss sat
down and
> >conciously copied storylines from other shows.
>
> Then you are a fool. There have been so many obvious borrowing that
> I've utterly lost track - I can't remember the last one, lest the
> total of fifty or so...
There is a difference between "borrowing" and "copying". The best
example is the recent episode where Xander is split in two. Within the
Buffy-verse, they acknowledge that Star Trek did pretty much the same
story!
Read my other post, EVERYTHING has been done before. It would be
pretty difficult for Joss and Co. to come up with a
conflict/character/monster whatever that is completely original and has
never been done in the genre before. But they do manage to put their
own interesting twist on it.
>
> ...but at this point, if there is anyone who doesn't see that the
> whole Buffy thing is a borrowing of Yohko Mano, then arrainge a sleep
> over with K B Lampke and watch an episode of "Friends" and have a good
> time. Just don't choke on a Pepsi bottle cap.
Jeezus Christmas, move out of your parents basement, already! I hope
you are kidding about the above statement. If not, you are exactly
everything I hate about SF fandom. "I know more obscure crap about
obscure crap than you do".
You know what the real thrust behind your (fanboys) constant nitpicking
of movies/tv/books about where they stole/copied/borrowed their ideas
from? You have to prove how you're smarter than the writers, cause
you're so damn jealous that they are actually making a living at
creating something interesting and you're working in a Kinko's so you
can afford the latest "Spawn" toys.
So what if Joss Whedon is inspired by/steals from Dr. Who, Japanese
anime or Hammer films? Shakespeare took his material from myths &
historic events and "Taming of the Shrew" is a re-working of a play
that was a "standard" around that time.
Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
LancerZ
da...@sgloomi.demon.co.uk (Dave Stone) wrote:
> the Cohens <ste...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In Buffy:The Vampire Slayer, Buffy's sister Dawn is a key to another
> > dimension. In Dr. Who, circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the
key to
> > time, and the seventh part of the key to time was a princess ...
>
> Of course, you're missing the point that _Buffy_ *is* _Doctor Who_ -
> only the emphasis has been taken off the Doctor (currently going under
> the name of Giles) and put on one of his Assistants.
>
> And let's just say that the 'Council' is situated slightly farther
> afield than England ...
>
This has been a favorite theory of mine as well, ever since the
introduction of "The Master" in Season One. Just goes to show that a
new version of Doctor Who has the potential to be successful.
LancerZ
LancerZ
king...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <39f7bf03$0$56642$3929...@news.execpc.com>,
> dsu...@ais.net (David M. Sueme) wrote:
> > On 25 Oct 2000 01:59:15 -0500, "Oren Ronen" <or...@isdn.net.il>
wrote:
> >
> > >Sigh.
> > >Yes, the plot from Dr. Who and the current BtVS Dawn plot share
some
> > >elements. However, I do not believe for one second that Joss sat
> down and
> > >conciously copied storylines from other shows.
> >
> > Then you are a fool. There have been so many obvious borrowing that
> > I've utterly lost track - I can't remember the last one, lest the
> > total of fifty or so...
>
> There is a difference between "borrowing" and "copying". The best
> example is the recent episode where Xander is split in two. Within
the
> Buffy-verse, they acknowledge that Star Trek did pretty much the same
> story!
Were the climactic "bullet-time" scenes in last season's
finale "borrowed" or "copied" from "The Matrix." (Which incidently
borrowed major elements from Doctor Who.)
I don't think anyone is saying that copying somethign else is
neccessarily bad. Bad, good, it's all in how it's done, and Whedon
always does it well.
>
> Read my other post, EVERYTHING has been done before. It would be
> pretty difficult for Joss and Co. to come up with a
> conflict/character/monster whatever that is completely original and
has
> never been done in the genre before. But they do manage to put their
> own interesting twist on it.
It always bothers me to hear a set in stone statement that says there's
positively nothing new under the sun. I think that's the strength of
Buffy. Whedon DOES manage to come up with some pretty darn original
ideas from time to to time. I'm pretty sure the cursed vampire with a
soul was a first.
>
> >
> > ...but at this point, if there is anyone who doesn't see that the
> > whole Buffy thing is a borrowing of Yohko Mano, then arrainge a
sleep
> > over with K B Lampke and watch an episode of "Friends" and have a
good
> > time. Just don't choke on a Pepsi bottle cap.
>
> Jeezus Christmas, move out of your parents basement, already! I hope
> you are kidding about the above statement. If not, you are exactly
> everything I hate about SF fandom. "I know more obscure crap about
> obscure crap than you do".
>
> You know what the real thrust behind your (fanboys) constant
nitpicking
> of movies/tv/books about where they stole/copied/borrowed their ideas
> from? You have to prove how you're smarter than the writers, cause
> you're so damn jealous that they are actually making a living at
> creating something interesting and you're working in a Kinko's so you
> can afford the latest "Spawn" toys.
Ouch. No need to get personal. Keep in mind we're all cumminicating on
a usenet group devoted to a sci-fi show... You know what they say about
glass houses...
>
> So what if Joss Whedon is inspired by/steals from Dr. Who, Japanese
> anime or Hammer films? Shakespeare took his material from myths &
> historic events and "Taming of the Shrew" is a re-working of a play
> that was a "standard" around that time.
>
> Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
I think that's what everyone is saying, and we're just having fun
picking out which parts were influenced by what...
My whole point is EVERYTHING in the current realm of Sci-Fi and Fantasy
stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
LancerZ
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
> the Cohens <ste...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> In Buffy:The Vampire Slayer, Buffy's sister Dawn is a key to another
>> dimension. In Dr. Who, circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the key to
>> time, and the seventh part of the key to time was a princess ...
> Of course, you're missing the point that _Buffy_ *is* _Doctor Who_ -
> only the emphasis has been taken off the Doctor (currently going under
> the name of Giles) and put on one of his Assistants.
Nah - she can't be a Companion, she doesn't scream nearly enough. ;)
> And let's just say that the 'Council' is situated slightly farther
> afield than England ...
But it's still made up of a bunch of stuffed shirts who have lost touch
with the goings on of the "real" universe...
Tirya
--
| Yet another in a long series of diversions in an attempt |
| to avoid responsibility. |
| TDC Inca Jeeper | AlTeam #99 | http://www.enteract.com/~tirya |
R Shaw
writes:
>
>>> In Buffy:The Vampire Slayer, Buffy's sister Dawn is a key to another
>>> dimension. In Dr. Who, circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the key to
>>> time, and the seventh part of the key to time was a princess ...
>
>> Of course, you're missing the point that _Buffy_ *is* _Doctor Who_ -
>> only the emphasis has been taken off the Doctor (currently going under
>> the name of Giles) and put on one of his Assistants.
>
>Nah - she can't be a Companion, she doesn't scream nearly enough. ;)
Leela didn't scream, she was a skilled warrior. Besides screaming
can be useful. In one of the early seasons, the companion killed some
monstrous seaweed by screaming at it (remember Hush).
Dr Who covered all the major SF plots, and most of the rest too.
It is inevitable that some of them will turn up in Buffy too but i'ts
all purely coincidental.
---
Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort
Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first.
That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.
Robert
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
>>
>>>> In Buffy:The Vampire Slayer, Buffy's sister Dawn is a key to another
>>>> dimension. In Dr. Who, circa 1980, the Doctor was assembling the key to
>>>> time, and the seventh part of the key to time was a princess ...
>>
>>> Of course, you're missing the point that _Buffy_ *is* _Doctor Who_ -
>>> only the emphasis has been taken off the Doctor (currently going under
>>> the name of Giles) and put on one of his Assistants.
>>
>>Nah - she can't be a Companion, she doesn't scream nearly enough. ;)
> Leela didn't scream, she was a skilled warrior. Besides screaming
> can be useful. In one of the early seasons, the companion killed some
> monstrous seaweed by screaming at it (remember Hush).
True, but it took halfway through the Fourth Doctor to finally find a
companion whose primary job function wasn't summed up as "Runner and
screamer"... ;)
Fun website:
http://members.aol.com/kevinesin/esin/index.html
> Dr Who covered all the major SF plots, and most of the rest too.
> It is inevitable that some of them will turn up in Buffy too but i'ts
> all purely coincidental.
Agreed. But if they bring in the Sunnydale equivalent of K-9, there's
going to be an uproar... ;)
Tirya
--
| There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through |
| a suitable application of high explosives. |
K.B. Lamke
"David M. Sueme" wrote:
> On 25 Oct 2000 01:59:15 -0500, "Oren Ronen" <or...@isdn.net.il> wrote:
>
> >Sigh.
> >Yes, the plot from Dr. Who and the current BtVS Dawn plot share some
> >elements. However, I do not believe for one second that Joss sat down and
> >conciously copied storylines from other shows.
>
> Then you are a fool. There have been so many obvious borrowing that
> I've utterly lost track - I can't remember the last one, lest the
> total of fifty or so...
>
But, as has been stated, virtually all of SF these days resembles other SF
Even if they do it on purpose, it's not considered a bad thing.
(unless they just copy - plagiarism is a different thing)
>
> ...but at this point, if there is anyone who doesn't see that the
> whole Buffy thing is a borrowing of Yohko Mano, then arrainge a sleep
> over with K B Lampke and watch an episode of "Friends" and have a good
> time. Just don't choke on a Pepsi bottle cap.
>
(sigh, nobody gets my name right, not even my friend Dave)
well, I've never seen Yohko Mano (or don't think so), not real
interested in 'Friends' and don't like pepsi.
However, I would consider a sleepover if the female in question is willing
(Guys, find someone else)
>
> Dave
>
> seriously, I'm not going to perturb my brain cells unless I have a
> commitments for some real mea culpa.
Welcome back, Dave.
K.B.Lamke
Klyfix
Sueme) writes:
A Key implies a Door or Gate (okay, granted that wasn't what the
deal was in the "The Key of Time" stories but this isn't the same
thing necessarily) and that's probablly also manifesting as
a person. Somebody who came from nowhere and has no
known relatives and seems to have something to hide.......
V. S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...
Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html
RPG and SF, predictions, philosophy, and other things.
"I wear the cheese; it does not wear me. - BtVS, "Restless"
David M. Sueme
>Then you are a fool. There have been so many obvious borrowing that
I made two obvious grammatical errors in this post.
My fault.
Dave
David M. Sueme
>In article <39f7bf03$0$56642$3929...@news.execpc.com>, dsu...@ais.net says...
>>
>>seriously, I'm not going to perturb my brain cells unless I have a
>>commitments for some real mea culpa.
>
>That would presume that you have some that are capable of firing in sequence.
>Not much evidence of that lately.
>
>-- Mike Zeares (why not ad hominem him? He never makes any sense anyway.
It's the 25th anniversary of the first printing of "Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance" and you want me to make sense? This shows
little regard for the historical perspective.
Dave
David M. Sueme
>There is a difference between "borrowing" and "copying". The best
>example is the recent episode where Xander is split in two. Within the
>Buffy-verse, they acknowledge that Star Trek did pretty much the same
>story!
Within the buffyverse, they only rarely acknowledge the source. That
is why most of it is copying.
>Jeezus Christmas, move out of your parents basement, already! I hope
>you are kidding about the above statement. If not, you are exactly
>everything I hate about SF fandom. "I know more obscure crap about
>obscure crap than you do".
>
>You know what the real thrust behind your (fanboys) constant nitpicking
>of movies/tv/books about where they stole/copied/borrowed their ideas
>from? You have to prove how you're smarter than the writers, cause
>you're so damn jealous that they are actually making a living at
>creating something interesting and you're working in a Kinko's so you
>can afford the latest "Spawn" toys.
>
>So what if Joss Whedon is inspired by/steals from Dr. Who, Japanese
>anime or Hammer films? Shakespeare took his material from myths &
>historic events and "Taming of the Shrew" is a re-working of a play
>that was a "standard" around that time.
>
>Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
You know, you and I might actually agree eventually, but at the moment
you are wrong because you don't understand the concept of "integrity".
Dave
David M. Sueme
>Were the climactic "bullet-time" scenes in last season's
>finale "borrowed" or "copied" from "The Matrix." (Which incidently
>borrowed major elements from Doctor Who.)
The Matrix is entire a dumbed-down version of William Gibson's novel
"Neuromancer". Instead of shooting data around cyberspace, they shoot
John Wayne's turds. Bullets.
As my version of Buffy's maybe sister used to say... "bore---ing!". I
eventually came to respect her judgement on certain issues.
Dave
David M. Sueme
>Agreed. But if they bring in the Sunnydale equivalent of K-9, there's
>going to be an uproar... ;)
There's going to be a line around the block of people wanting to trade
in PlayStation 2 devices.
Dave
George Avalos
king...@my-deja.com wrote in message
>So what if Joss Whedon is inspired by/steals from Dr. Who, Japanese
>anime or Hammer films? Shakespeare took his material from myths &
>historic events and "Taming of the Shrew" is a re-working of a play
>that was a "standard" around that time.
>
>Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
They can't help *but* be. Some posters (actually, about one) have claimed
that Whedon lifted the 'Buffy' idea from some Devil Hunter anime. So, dumb
as I am, I did some research to determine whether it was likely, or even
possible. Here's what I found out a year or two back.
According to the official Web site for the Yoko Demon Hunter anime, the
first cartoon aired in Japan at the end of 1991. In March 1992, 'Buffy the
Vampire Slayer' the movie appeared in U.S. theaters. So if Whedon had gotten
the idea from the anime, we would have to believe that he was in Japan at
the end of 1991 to see the cartoon when it showed on Japanese TV. The only
way it works is if somebody got him a copy of the video tape of what at that
time was an obscure Japanese cartoon, obscure at that time in the U.S..
Why is it unlikely that Whedon was in Japan at the time? Whedon would have
had to have been in the middle of filming or even in post-production, for
the 'Buffy' movie at the time the Yoko cartoon was out. Plus, he would have
had a script outline done *before* the cartoon was on Japanese TV. Ripping
off of this particular concept would have been the closest thing to
impossible.
The poseur, I mean, the poster, has never responded to this conflict in
time, a conflict that torpedoes and sinks his theory about Whedon's source
for 'Buffy.' Wherever Whedon got the idea, it wasn't this particular
Japanese cartoon.
And yes, you're right: There are only 7 plots in Hollywood. The art -- and
artifice -- of today's movies and television programs is to fashion a unique
and creative interpretation of the many previous versions of any idea that
is being presented on camera. In this, Whedon has succeeded more often than
he has failed. Which is a better track record than most TV show-runners.
--George
--George
Alma G
>
>
> It always bothers me to hear a set in stone statement that says there's
> positively nothing new under the sun. I think that's the strength of
> Buffy. Whedon DOES manage to come up with some pretty darn original
> ideas from time to to time. I'm pretty sure the cursed vampire with a
> soul was a first.
I guess you never saw Dark Shadows. ;-)
Okay, so, technically, Barnabas was a different breed of bloodsucker
and he was cursed with vampirism, the soul part was his own. But, he
suffered and moped and dressed in black and saved the innocent. Just
like another vamp we know.
Ditto Nick Knight of Forever Knight, who wore a bit less black, but
made up for it with even more moping and a job as a police detective.
This is not to take away from Joss Whedon, mind you. He may not have
any absolutely startling, never-before-dreamed-of ideas tanning
themselves in the sunshine. But, he puts some fabulous new spins on
concepts and conventions we've seen in other stories. Hush was a great
example of this. The Gentlemen and their specific "fairytale" are
original to Joss. But, the themes are so familiar and the characters so
archetypal of the more gruesome Grim's Tales, that a lot of people
(myself included) went looking for the story they came from.
Sure, you could pick it to death and point to all the thematic
antecedents the episode has in literature and other media. But, that
doesn't make the episode itself and its execution less brilliant.
The same goes for the Dawn arc. (though, I'll hold off on declaring how
brilliant it is, just now) I can see its likeness to the Key Of Time arc
on Doctor Who. But, that in itself shouldn't invalidate it as a
worthwhile Buffy story. What matters is where Joss goes with it and what
new twists he can give it along the way.
Alma Geddon
It's The End Of The World As We Know It...Again
http://www.geocities.com:80/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html
Immor...@yahoo.com
remember that movie but I seem to remember someone who was a key or a
gate in it or something. I'm sure any similarities are coincedence.
king...@my-deja.com
> >
> >Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
>
> You know, you and I might actually agree eventually, but at the moment
> you are wrong because you don't understand the concept of "integrity".
>
When a story uses a similar element from another story (ala use of
Matrix-style action) because it's popular at the time, it's borrowing.
When the publisher turns to the writer and says, "You need ideas, well
there is a whole stack of comic books over there to copy from" that's
stealing. The above example is a true story that Harlan Ellison tells.
Another thing, Buffy used elements from the Matrix, right? But all the
action in the Matrix is heavily influenced by Hong Kong action movies!
>The Matrix is entire a dumbed-down version of William Gibson's
novel "Neuromancer".
Matrix and ALL "cyber-punk" was influenced by Neuromancer. I would
hardly say that Matrix was a version of Neuromancer. In N. cyberspace
was not an accurate representation of the world, it was something
different. If you want to get into it, you can see the idea of the
movie in many Philip K. Dick books. He used the theme of "what is
reality?" in a number of books. One even where people were all jacked
into a computer generated reality that they thought was real life, when
actually they were on a deep space mission. Do I think the writers of
the Matrix read some PKD. Probably. Do I think they sat down and copied
a PKD book and just changed it around a bit? No. Same for most of
movies and tv. I give the writers a bit more credit and *ahem*
integrity.
Do I think when Rambo was big, other producers said, Let's make a movie
like that? Sure. Do I ever here anyone complaining when there are a
trend of movies that are pretty much the rehash of the same tired
stories. Hardly ever. But, god forbid the creative team of one of the
best written, creative, daring series on TV today uses an element that
almost, sorta like something that happened in Stanislaw Lem book, and
some smarty pants has to check in and prove how much smarter he is than
everyone else and alert everyone to "The Conspiracy".
king...@my-deja.com
LancerZ <lan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > Read my other post, EVERYTHING has been done before. It would be
> > pretty difficult for Joss and Co. to come up with a
> > conflict/character/monster whatever that is completely original and
> has
> > never been done in the genre before. But they do manage to put their
> > own interesting twist on it.
>
> It always bothers me to hear a set in stone statement that says
there's
> positively nothing new under the sun. I think that's the strength of
> Buffy. Whedon DOES manage to come up with some pretty darn original
> ideas from time to to time. I'm pretty sure the cursed vampire with a
> soul was a first.
OK, EVERYTHING is a pretty broad statment. But really, there are
literally thousands of years of story telling on this planet. Just
about any conflict/character you or I can think of has been done
before. It may not be Hollywood or Japanese Anime or the BBC, it might
be the stories of Hammurabi (sp?), Irish folk tales or German Opera.
Does that make your idea a rip-off ? No. Hell, Bob Kane freely admits
that Batman was inspired by a silent movie called "The Bat". Do the
stories and character of Batman far and away transcend the source
material? You better believe it!
> > Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
>
> I think that's what everyone is saying, and we're just having fun
> picking out which parts were influenced by what...
>
> My whole point is EVERYTHING in the current realm of Sci-Fi and
Fantasy
> stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
Yeah, well fun is fun. It's my pet peeve of "smarter than thou" types
who like to criticize something that is good and entertaining, just
because it's "like" something that came before, so therefore
it's "stolen" or a "rip-off".
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
[snippage]
>> So what if Joss Whedon is inspired by/steals from Dr. Who, Japanese
>> anime or Hammer films? Shakespeare took his material from myths &
>> historic events and "Taming of the Shrew" is a re-working of a play
>> that was a "standard" around that time.
>>
>> Very simply, a writer is influenced by EVERYTHING that comes before.
> I think that's what everyone is saying, and we're just having fun
> picking out which parts were influenced by what...
> My whole point is EVERYTHING in the current realm of Sci-Fi and Fantasy
> stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
Which then raises the question of... what did Doctor Who steal its core
ideas from? :D
Tirya
--
| Programming: The art of debugging an empty file. |
dvd...@webtv.net
Sci-Fi and Fantasy stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
I disagree. I'm pretty sure that The Twiligght Zone did some stories
about time travel ( at least one) and that show aired years before
Doctor Who ever aired. The Twilight Zone aired in the 1950's and early
1960's. Doctor Who didn't air until 1963. And The Twilight Zone
definitely did a stories avout otherd imensios, and about alternate
universes, before Doctor Who ever did.
Dave Stone
> My whole point is EVERYTHING in the current realm of Sci-Fi and Fantasy
> stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
Like resistance to the Borg being futile rather than useless. As done by
a race that for some reason can't actually pronounce the word 'futile'
properly.
Of course, someone once made the point that the original 'resistance is
useless' was really quoted out of context from a Cyberman electronics
manual, and immediately followed by 'impedance is a far more useful
concept'.
Those of us still carrying Doctor Who on in our own small way, of
course, don't really care who rips it off. Somebody uses one idea, we
simply come up with another one. We've just, for example, [spoiler]ed
the [spoiler] and then [spoiler] it back only to [spoiler] the
[spoiler]'s entire bloody [spoiler] ...
Alane Sue
>Sci-Fi and Fantasy stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
>-----------------------------------------------------
>I disagree. I'm pretty sure that The Twiligght Zone did some stories
>about time travel ( at least one) and that show aired years before
>Doctor Who ever aired.
I have a Doctor Who book called "The Discontinuity Guide." It lists the "roots"
of each DW episode. The series borrowed themes from other and earlier sci-fi
stories. It started right with the first story, "An Unearthly Child," with
borrowing from H.G. Wells' "The Time Machine" and "2,000 Leagues Under the
Sea."
There's nothing new under the sun.
Alane
Relive the undead nights (and days) of Dark Shadows
http://fly.to/bat.net
JamesCraine
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com wrote:
> > Of course, you're missing the point that _Buffy_ *is* _Doctor Who_ -
> > only the emphasis has been taken off the Doctor (currently going under
> > the name of Giles) and put on one of his Assistants.
>
> Nah - she can't be a Companion, she doesn't scream nearly enough. ;)
>
She could be like Leela of the Sevateem. She didn't scream and she was quite
competent. (Liked her fashion sense too.) In fact, she was my favorite
companion.
Scott Smith
news:1ej6obo.xb6kxjwb6fggN%da...@sgloomi.demon.co.uk...
> LancerZ <lan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > My whole point is EVERYTHING in the current realm of Sci-Fi and Fantasy
> > stole it's core ideas from Doctor Who... :-)
>
> Like resistance to the Borg being futile rather than useless. As done by
> a race that for some reason can't actually pronounce the word 'futile'
> properly.
Er, what? They pronounce it fine.
David M. Sueme
<James_...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>She could be like Leela of the Sevateem. She didn't scream and she was quite
>competent. (Liked her fashion sense too.) In fact, she was my favorite
>companion.
I liked her, but the Doc and I are agreed: Lalla Ward was the best
Romana of them all.
And one of my favorite current intellectual icons, Richard Dawkins
(The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype) must have been impressed.
He married Lalla.
Dave
Captain Average
David M. Sueme wrote
>I liked her, but the Doc and I are agreed: Lalla Ward was the best
>Romana of them all.
At least he thought that way until *after* the divorce... *G*
>
>And one of my favorite current intellectual icons, Richard Dawkins
>(The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype) must have been impressed.
>He married Lalla.
Apres M. Baker, n'est-ce pas?
Captain Average
Superhero Whovian...
David M. Sueme
My favorite Doctor, but Dawkins has to be more interesting. There is
a big long article in the current Scientific American based on an idea
Dawkins advanced as a sort of humorous aside - the famous "memes".
The buffy meme is a child of the yohko meme.
Dave
Captain Average
David M. Sueme wrote in message
<3a00e5b5$0$56652$3929...@news.execpc.com>...
But my point was that Dawkins married Lalla after she and Tom Baker were
divorced. OTOH, you're right about Dawkins being interesting - especially
the famous "memes".
Captain Average
The Un-Memed Superhero (At Least To This Point...)
David M. Sueme
<captain...@home.com> wrote:
>>>Apres M. Baker, n'est-ce pas?
>>
>But my point was that Dawkins married Lalla after she and Tom Baker were
>divorced. OTOH, you're right about Dawkins being interesting - especially
>the famous "memes".
You put your point in French. I'm an intellectual - I took German in
college while pursuing a degree in philosophy.
Dave
Janet Dornhoff, DVM
>
> LancerZ wrote:
> >
> > Whedon DOES manage to come up with some pretty darn original
> > ideas from time to to time. I'm pretty sure the cursed vampire with a
> > soul was a first.
>
> I guess you never saw Dark Shadows. ;-)
>
> Okay, so, technically, Barnabas was a different breed of bloodsucker
> and he was cursed with vampirism, the soul part was his own. But, he
> suffered and moped and dressed in black and saved the innocent. Just
> like another vamp we know.
>
> Ditto Nick Knight of Forever Knight, who wore a bit less black, but
> made up for it with even more moping and a job as a police detective.
As a fan of both Dark Shadows and Forever Knight, thank you. I was
about to point out the same thing.
However, allow me to point out that Nick Knight does *not* mope.
He broods.
Thank you.
-Janet <dorn...@prairienet.org>
"You, help me? No one can help me. My immortality is a curse,
a fall from grace. Evil is a metaphysical condition."
Sarah Trombley
>> > ideas from time to to time. I'm pretty sure the cursed vampire with a
>> > soul was a first.
>>
>> I guess you never saw Dark Shadows. ;-)
>>
>> Okay, so, technically, Barnabas was a different breed of bloodsucker
>> and he was cursed with vampirism, the soul part was his own. But, he
>> suffered and moped and dressed in black and saved the innocent. Just
>> like another vamp we know.
>>
>> Ditto Nick Knight of Forever Knight, who wore a bit less black, but
>> made up for it with even more moping and a job as a police detective.
>
>about to point out the same thing.
>
>However, allow me to point out that Nick Knight does *not* mope.
>
>He broods.
>
>Thank you.
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery..."
;)
--Sarah T.
"I _made_ you!"
"What you made was a mistake!"
Alma Geddon
>
> Alma G wrote:
> >
> > LancerZ wrote:
> > >
> > > ideas from time to to time. I'm pretty sure the cursed vampire with a
> > > soul was a first.
> >
> > I guess you never saw Dark Shadows. ;-)
> >
> > Okay, so, technically, Barnabas was a different breed of bloodsucker
> > and he was cursed with vampirism, the soul part was his own. But, he
> > suffered and moped and dressed in black and saved the innocent. Just
> > like another vamp we know.
> >
> > Ditto Nick Knight of Forever Knight, who wore a bit less black, but
> > made up for it with even more moping and a job as a police detective.
>
> about to point out the same thing.
>
> However, allow me to point out that Nick Knight does *not* mope.
>
> He broods.
>
> Thank you.
Oh, all right. I stand corrected...Actually, I *sit* corrected. This is
just *much* too picky a point to have to stand up for. ;-)
Alma Geddon
(a devoted Cousin, who'd still happily stand, sit or lie down for
*Lacroix*, any day.<eg>)
Janet Dornhoff, DVM
>
> Alma Geddon
> (a devoted Cousin, who'd still happily stand, sit or lie down for
> *Lacroix*, any day.<eg>)
With a name like Alma, shouldn't you be either a Ravenette or an FoD?
<weg>
-Janet <dorn...@prairienet.org>
Forever Vet -- NatPacker eight years and counting!
"And...you're not afraid?"
"Fear is based on ignorance. I'd rather try to understand. Understand
who you are, and....what you are."
"You're a unique woman."
"No. I'm a scientist."