AOQ Angel Review 2-16: "Epiphany"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads.
ANGEL
Season Two, Episode 16: "Epiphany"
(or "Threw up when I saw what I'd done/Oh, the wake-up bomb")
Writer: Tim Minear
Director: Tom Wright
So, as expected, no soul loss. The opening plays out with Angel and
Darla slowly putting together what's happened. I do think Darla
seems a little thick in not realizing that sex isn't always true
happiness (glad to see the show continuing to take my side on that
one). This exchange kinda goes on and on, but I think it's worth it
just for Angel's rambling attempts to make a coherent thought out of
his epiphany, spelling things out for the viewer while allowing for
some comedy as they talk past each other. There's also an element of
dark parody of the bedroom scene from "Innocence," I think, with
the monster hesitatingly asking whether "it" was good.
Darla, of course, goes on to pit Lindsey against Angel so as to give
the episode a mid-show action sequence. It's a little bit
interesting that she refers to the ring as "my pay" and acts like
she doesn't want to be touched and is trying to get rid of him. One
thing that's not made entirely clear is what exactly she tells him
- the truth would probably be enough to get him seething, but Darla
could've easily indulged her knack for roleplaying. I also think
it's interesting that Angel apologizes for not having tried harder to
help back in "Blind Date;" I didn't see him do anything wrong
there. Our one-armed man has been getting dumber ever week since
Darla's been around, so we'll see how he reacts to being ditched.
So having hit his nadir, Angel's ready to try yet again to turn
himself around. The idea's okay, but the lame proximate villains and
a few of the details make this episode overall a disappointment
compared to the strength of its predecessor. Things feel a little too
easy, not so much in terms of the atonement itself, but in terms of so
easily being inserted back into the mix, showing up in all the right
places at the right times. For instance, remember how powerful
Kate's suicide attempt was? It feels a little cheapened by the fact
that Angel can go out, get laid, and a take a nap before bothering to
stop by, and she'll still be totally okay.
Our hero confides in the Host first, and luckily keeps things brief. I
still don't particularly care for the Host as a spiritual advisor,
since there's just not that much depth of either insight or personal
connection. At least he's only on the fringes of the story. Also,
what's up with "I'm not your link with the Powers" leading into
him somehow knowing that the others are in danger? Angel's
interactions with the rest of the AI staff come off better, as his
former employees don't seem particularly impressed by this great
epiphany. Gunn is particularly fun in his mocking Angel's fondness
for the word. When he's being all consumed with his mission and
broody it's easy to forget that Angel doesn't avoid unnecessary
conversation only because he's "dark," but because he has trouble
talking to people. Unfortunately for him, there're some who aren't
going to take kindly to attempts to banter his way back into the group
without any straight talk about the last few months. Maybe some tea
would help.
Thrown in there I suppose I should mention Wesley's speech about
Cordelia, S2 Version. I think it's pretty good, especially since it
ties into everyone else's issues too. The exact nature of how the
character has changed makes sense to me, but it's been in the
background enough that I didn't notice until it was pointed out. So
here it is again: "you don't know her at all. For months now you
haven't cared to. Otherwise you might have realized that our Cordelia
has become a very solitary girl. She's not the vain, carefree creature
she once was... well, certainly not carefree. It's the visions, you
see. The visions that were meant to guide you. You could turn away
from them. She doesn't have that luxury. She knows and experiences
the pain in this city, and because of who she is, she feels compelled
to do something about it. It's left her little time for anything else.
You'd have known that, if you hadn't had you head firmly up your...
place that isn't on top of your neck."
Speaking of whom, I totally called her having a vision of herself.
"That was helpful!" is still pretty funny. I very much dislike the
stuff with the Invasion Of The Eye Creatures, despite (or, ironically,
because of) Carpenter actually doing a good job of selling fear for
once. Forcibly impregnating her with their young while she's begging
them not to feels way too much like a rape scene to be treated as
ultimately no big deal, as this one is, so the whole thing is one of
the most unpleasant moments of the series for me.
On a more flippant note, this scene is also offensive for another
reason - it makes mention of the events of "Expecting,"
preventing us from treating it as something totally divorced from the
rest of the series. Damn you, Minear. The writers like to kick Cordy
around from time to time, it seems. Having grown up on fantasy novels
and comic books, it doesn't feel right to me for the one female
character in the heroes' group to be such a non-combatant. Maybe
I'd feel better if the writers would let Kate start stabbing things
again. Or bring back Faith.
Now, getting back to no big deal in the long run - are the Eye
Creatures really worth building suspense moments around? As we learn,
they're more interested in making more rise than in killing (this
week, anyway. Seems inconsistent with the previous episode, for those
who care about a consistent portrayal for these stupid things). They
have to keep their victims alive for some time to incubate their young,
especially considering that the little girl probably had her third eye
for at least a few days. And once one knows the cure, it seems like a
pretty easy ritual. So what's the rush? Angel could've shown up
half an hour later and everything probably would've been fine. This
whole story would've been shoddy as the plot of a single episode, let
alone as the denouement to a pseudo-two-parter.
Moving on past the crap, I was feeling like I wanted more Angel/Kate
aftermath just as the episode delivered it. This is my favorite scene
of the week, for its mix of various subdued tones - there's worry,
some discomfort, relief, heartfelt gratitude, and a touch of humor.
There's a kind of healing here that we don't see in Angel's
interactions with anyone else. Also the lack of an invite is food for
thought. I noticed it at the time and thought of it as a little bit of
sloppyness, but it was part of the plan. The character who always wore
a cross around her neck even before she met Angel suggests that
there's a purpose or design after all. Don't know if this will be
raised again, but I'd be fine with never knowing how he got in, as a
deliberate blank spot in the mythology. A couple flakes of magic snow,
if you will. As the quiet punchline to the episode's running joke,
I'm a fan of "it sounds like you had an epiphany." "I keep saying
that. But nobody's listening."
I called "I wanna work for you" before he said it, but it's a
decent enough ending image. Angel's new thing is trying to throw
himself completely into his role as a servant of Right, and part of
that is giving up some of the self-importance and Big Gestures he
sometimes slips into. We'll see how long this new humility lasts.
I'm going to guess not long, but I've been wrong before.
As in the previous episode, David Fury gets an on-screen cameo. I
forget who he played, though.
In place of a standard "previously on..." the transcript has an
incredibly cheesy sounding narrator-assisted recap of the story so far,
luckily not on the DVDs. We'll just say that the network put it
together rather than ME.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "I think I'm speaking for everyone when I say if all you're gonna
do is switch back to brood mode, we'd rather have you evil."
So...
One-sentence summary: Somewhat disappointing, still keeps things
moving.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Two so far:
1) "Judgment" - Weak
2) "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" - Decent
3) "First Impressions" - Good
4) "Untouched" - Excellent*
5) "Dear Boy" - Good
6) "Guise Will Be Guise" - Decent
7) "Darla" - Good
8) "The Shroud Of Rahmon" - Decent
9) "The Trial" - Excellent
10) "Reunion" - Good
11) "Redefinition" - Decent
12) "Blood Money" - Decent
13) "Happy Anniversary" - Decent
14) "The Thin Dead Line" - Decent
15) "Reprise" - Good
16) "Epiphany" - Decent]
* rating changed from original review
lili...@gmail.com
Actually one thing about the similarities with the scene in Innocence
is to empathize the Buffy-Darla similarities. Buffy really is just a
stand in for Darla in Angel's obsessions and that scene fits that.
Lore
Elisi
> Moving on past the crap, I was feeling like I wanted more Angel/Kate
> aftermath just as the episode delivered it. This is my favorite scene
> of the week, for its mix of various subdued tones - there's worry,
> some discomfort, relief, heartfelt gratitude, and a touch of humor.
> There's a kind of healing here that we don't see in Angel's
> interactions with anyone else. Also the lack of an invite is food for
> thought. I noticed it at the time and thought of it as a little bit of
> sloppyness, but it was part of the plan. The character who always wore
> a cross around her neck even before she met Angel suggests that
> there's a purpose or design after all. Don't know if this will be
> raised again, but I'd be fine with never knowing how he got in, as a
> deliberate blank spot in the mythology. A couple flakes of magic snow,
> if you will. As the quiet punchline to the episode's running joke,
> I'm a fan of "it sounds like you had an epiphany." "I keep saying
> that. But nobody's listening."
That scene has some of my favourite lines ever:
Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great
glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that
matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now,
today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally
just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because
- I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is
no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest
thing in the world."
I love that. (I also managed to purge my mind of the eye-demons - I'd
forgotten that they were in this episode, and was vaguely wondering
which monster was the one they fought...) So, I'd say that parts of
this was excellent, and parts dull as anything!
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Epiphany"
> (or "Threw up when I saw what I'd done/Oh, the wake-up bomb")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tom Wright
>
> Thrown in there I suppose I should mention Wesley's speech about
> Cordelia, S2 Version. I think it's pretty good, especially since it
> ties into everyone else's issues too. The exact nature of how the
> character has changed makes sense to me, but it's been in the
> background enough that I didn't notice until it was pointed out. So
> here it is again: "you don't know her at all. For months now you
> haven't cared to. Otherwise you might have realized that our Cordelia
> has become a very solitary girl. She's not the vain, carefree creature
> she once was... well, certainly not carefree. It's the visions, you
> see. The visions that were meant to guide you. You could turn away
> from them. She doesn't have that luxury. She knows and experiences
> the pain in this city, and because of who she is, she feels compelled
> to do something about it. It's left her little time for anything else.
> You'd have known that, if you hadn't had you head firmly up your...
> place that isn't on top of your neck."
>
I was buying into Wesley's lecture until I realized he's completely full
of it. He says Angel would have known Cordy no longer had friends to go
out with on a Friday night if he'd been around but Wes had no idea
either until speaking with her on the phone a few hours before.
And the visions have left her little time for anything else? Hello? How
many visions has she had since Angel fired them? I count 2, the first
one after their karaoke trio at Caritas and the second one, about
herself, in this episode.
Of course, what Wes also doesn't know is that Angel _was_ around after
he was shot, but Cordy drove him off. Don't get me started on Cordy in
this episode. Suffice to say her second rejection of Angel comes across
as putting her own hurt feelings above the mission she supposedly cares
so much about now.
Mel
One Bit Shy
news:1152283266.9...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Epiphany"
> So, as expected, no soul loss. The opening plays out with Angel and
> Darla slowly putting together what's happened.
Well, I did alright with the easy part of predicting what would happen, but
I can't believe it didn't occur to me to think what Darla would expect.
When Darla shows up with, "Don't fight it my love," I had a momentary
thrill at the thought that maybe Angel would try to scam Darla with a fake
soul loss. But then I realized he'd already done that once (with Faith) and
that such a scheme would have been beyond Angel's capabilities in the state
of mind he was in last episode. No, epiphany is the right choice.
Still, it was a fun thought for a bit.
> I do think Darla
> seems a little thick in not realizing that sex isn't always true
> happiness (glad to see the show continuing to take my side on that
> one).
I don't think you're being fair to Darla. When I realized what Darla
thought, I was taken back to Dear Boy when Angel said, "You took me places,
showed me things, huh? You blew the top off my head. But you never made me
happy." How hurt and angry Darla was at that. And how disbelieving. She
was the definition of bliss.
This scene choice works very well for me specifically because of what a big
deal this would be for Darla. All the talk of how perfect the sex was isn't
gratuitous. Right now in her vampire state she can't imagine a happiness
more perfect than she witnessed. "You gave yourself over so completely,
Angelus. I felt you surrender."
In a way, I feel kind of badly for Darla. She thought this was her big
triumph. But now, not only has she failed, she's been forced to face the
irrefutable truth of what Angel told her in Dear Boy that she didn't want to
believe. Darla has got to be hurting bad after this.
> This exchange kinda goes on and on, but I think it's worth it
> just for Angel's rambling attempts to make a coherent thought out of
> his epiphany, spelling things out for the viewer while allowing for
> some comedy as they talk past each other. There's also an element of
> dark parody of the bedroom scene from "Innocence," I think, with
> the monster hesitatingly asking whether "it" was good.
Oh, I did have a heartly laugh at Darla hesitatingly asking if she wasn't
good. There's a nice expression on Angel's face right then too. He notices
the connection.
Epiphany or not, I think the notion of Darla "saving" him still gets a bit
murky. (I'm not entirely convinced that if Angel had succeeded in saving
Darla earlier in the season that he would somehow be worse off for it.) But
no matter. I don't think I'll ever be convinced that Angel is any kind of
master of philosophy either. As John Lennon said, "Whatever gets you
through the night is alright."
> Darla, of course, goes on to pit Lindsey against Angel so as to give
> the episode a mid-show action sequence.
It wasn't clear to me that was what Darla was doing. She struck me as
somewhat conflicted about Lindsey. I'd be interested in other opinions. In
any case, I really liked the shot composition of them sitting on the ends of
the couch as far from each other as possible.
> It's a little bit
> interesting that she refers to the ring as "my pay"
I was kind of disappointed about the ring. I was hoping to hear a purpose
for her interest in it. Oh, well. At least the show expended the effort to
resolve the fact of its existance. And I do observe that somewhere there
still must be a dimension with Senior Partners that probably doesn't have
much to do with the elevator Angel road on.
> I also think
> it's interesting that Angel apologizes for not having tried harder to
> help back in "Blind Date;" I didn't see him do anything wrong
> there. Our one-armed man has been getting dumber ever week since
> Darla's been around, so we'll see how he reacts to being ditched.
Well, he sure was acting out a lot in his foolish assault on Angel. But
even though he ended up getting the crap beat out of himself, somehow I
think it helped Lindsey get some stuff out of his system. I also very much
enjoyed the staging of that scene.
> For instance, remember how powerful
> Kate's suicide attempt was? It feels a little cheapened by the fact
> that Angel can go out, get laid, and a take a nap before bothering to
> stop by, and she'll still be totally okay.
In terms of the timing we can see, it would seem to me that if she could be
saved when she was, then she probably would have survived on her own. On
the other hand, there is the PTB factor...
> Our hero confides in the Host first, and luckily keeps things brief. I
> still don't particularly care for the Host as a spiritual advisor,
I'm getting a little more used to his manner - don't mind the character so
much now. But spiritual advisor? Yeah, I struggle with that too.
> Also,
> what's up with "I'm not your link with the Powers" leading into
> him somehow knowing that the others are in danger?
What's the confusion? He has some kind of natural ability to read people's
possible paths - sometimes more clearly than other times. But that doesn't
mean he's linked to the PTB.
> Gunn is particularly fun in his mocking Angel's fondness
> for the word.
Gunn's epiphany riff is a terrific speech and delivery. I may be forgetting
something, but that struck me as his best performance to date.
> Thrown in there I suppose I should mention Wesley's speech about
> Cordelia, S2 Version. I think it's pretty good, especially since it
> ties into everyone else's issues too.
It's ok and gets its point across. But I'm not entirely with it. The setup
of Angel imagining her out on the town seems forced to me. And, prior to the
firing anyway, I think he knew and understood Cordelia better than he's
getting credit for. Albeit with gaps. Still, you're right that there is
value in taking a moment to get across how the visions are affecting Cordy.
> Speaking of whom, I totally called her having a vision of herself.
> "That was helpful!" is still pretty funny.
Damn. I sure didn't see that coming. But, yes, it's funny, albeit a little
puzzling. Why *would* the PTB send such a useless vision? Is it just for
the sake of a throwaway joke?
> I very much dislike the
> stuff with the Invasion Of The Eye Creatures, despite (or, ironically,
> because of) Carpenter actually doing a good job of selling fear for
> once. Forcibly impregnating her with their young while she's begging
> them not to feels way too much like a rape scene to be treated as
> ultimately no big deal, as this one is, so the whole thing is one of
> the most unpleasant moments of the series for me.
Um. Well. Until you said it, that didn't occur to me. Without that
intruding thought, most of this stuff worked fine for me. Her getting the
third eye was kind of neat for a while. I rather enjoyed her seeing both
Gunn and Wesley simultaneously because of the eye. (And the wheeled one's
little bits with the stuck wheel and toppling over.)
> Seems inconsistent with the previous episode, for those
> who care about a consistent portrayal for these stupid things). They
> have to keep their victims alive for some time to incubate their young,
> especially considering that the little girl probably had her third eye
> for at least a few days.
Yes, that seems to be a rather blatant failure of continuity. And the
swelling music as Angel crashes the truck through the window was probably
overdone - though I do appreciate that a little as a kind of announcement
that the old Angel is back.
> Moving on past the crap, I was feeling like I wanted more Angel/Kate
> aftermath just as the episode delivered it.
The first scene with Kate put me off initially. "Thanks. - Now get out." I
was afraid we would get another terribly unsatisfactory Kate drive by. But
no, and in retrospect I realize that Kate would have come to the realization
that she hadn't invited Angel in sometime after this scene - which itself
explains why she had such a different attitude talking to Angel at the end.
Not a bad construction.
> This is my favorite scene
> of the week, for its mix of various subdued tones - there's worry,
> some discomfort, relief, heartfelt gratitude, and a touch of humor.
> There's a kind of healing here that we don't see in Angel's
> interactions with anyone else. Also the lack of an invite is food for
> thought. I noticed it at the time and thought of it as a little bit of
> sloppyness, but it was part of the plan.
I noticed it at the time too, but thought I must have forgotten a past scene
when she did invite him in.
> The character who always wore
> a cross around her neck even before she met Angel suggests that
> there's a purpose or design after all. Don't know if this will be
> raised again, but I'd be fine with never knowing how he got in, as a
> deliberate blank spot in the mythology. A couple flakes of magic snow,
> if you will. As the quiet punchline to the episode's running joke,
> I'm a fan of "it sounds like you had an epiphany." "I keep saying
> that. But nobody's listening."
I liked that line and moment a lot, not just for the humor, but for letting
Angel relax and feel good for a moment.
Angel's big epiphany line - "If - nothing we do matters, - then all that
matters is what we do," seems to come from the school of philosophy that all
great thoughts must be expressed obscurely, but sound really deep, man.
Again I'm reminded of the getting stoned scene in Animal House when Pinto (I
think) is blown away by the concept of universes within universes within
universes.
But it grounds Angel for the time being, which appears to be good. And I
expect he'll stay away from grand gestures at least until the next
opportunity presents.
> I called "I wanna work for you" before he said it,
Not me. I don't seem to anticpate much of anything as it happens. I have
to work at my predictions. But, hey, I think I did a pretty good job
predicting the outcome of the Surprise reprise - even if I missd the Darla
part.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Somewhat disappointing, still keeps things
> moving.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
The episode worked better for me. I think it managed to move on from last
episode's despair pretty well. You're right that getting back in with Angel
Investigations was easier than it probably should have been. But the idea
of working for them and earning their trust is a pretty good excuse for
letting that happen. I'm not exactly keen on the idea of returning to
gentleman vampire detective, but that's for the future to sort out. I'm
also wondering if that's it for Darla for a while. Though I had expected a
longer break after Darla (the episode) than there turned out to be. We'll
see. I also note that there doesn't seem to be a place for Dru now. Is she
done for the season?
Anyway, I rate this as Good.
OBS
On a separate, but related note, I have a question for people who have
watched both BtVS and AtS.
With the influence of the PTB suggested for Angel's entrance into Kate's
apartment - and just generally looking at the kinds of powers and demons and
so on in AtS, I'm sensing a growing divergence in the nature of the
universes in these two series.
I'm curious how much people think of the two as one big universe - or rather
two separate (if closely related) universes.
Please, no cites. I'm not looking for spoilers, or debate, or even
explanation. I'm just trying to get a feel for what consensus there may (or
may not) be of how separate people view the two universes.
Apteryx
news:1152283266.9...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> episodes in these review threads.
>
> Kate's suicide attempt was? It feels a little cheapened by the fact
> that Angel can go out, get laid, and a take a nap before bothering to
> stop by, and she'll still be totally okay.
It does a bit. But that does depend on what the pills were she took. And a
brief public service warning for anyone who finds a friend who has ODed and
uses TV as a guide to medical treatment - depending again on exactly what
the pills were, the fact that you get the person to wake up does not mean
that they are safe. Generally their blood and possibly their stomach will
still be full of toxic substances. They need medical attention and almost
certainly hospilisation, ASAP.
> Our hero confides in the Host first, and luckily keeps things brief. I
> still don't particularly care for the Host as a spiritual advisor,
> since there's just not that much depth of either insight or personal
> connection. At least he's only on the fringes of the story. Also,
> what's up with "I'm not your link with the Powers" leading into
> him somehow knowing that the others are in danger?
The Host's knowledge of the future doesn't depend on the PTB. But it
normally does depend on him seeing a person who's future he's reading
singing. If he saw this danger the last time he saw Cordy, Wes, or Gunn
sing, he was remarkably discreete about it at the time.
>
> Speaking of whom, I totally called her having a vision of herself.
> "That was helpful!" is still pretty funny.
Yeah, that was good. PTB have a dark sense of humour.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Somewhat disappointing, still keeps things
> moving.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Decent for me too. The bits that rap up and explain Reprise are good, but we
didn't need a whole episode for that. Everything else, lame. Overall, my
58th favourite AtS episode, 20th best in season 2.
--
Apteryx
James Craine
Mel wrote:
>
>
> I was buying into Wesley's lecture until I realized he's completely full
> of it. He says Angel would have known Cordy no longer had friends to go
> out with on a Friday night if he'd been around but Wes had no idea
> either until speaking with her on the phone a few hours before.
>
> And the visions have left her little time for anything else? Hello? How
> many visions has she had since Angel fired them? I count 2, the first
> one after their karaoke trio at Caritas and the second one, about
> herself, in this episode.
>
> Of course, what Wes also doesn't know is that Angel _was_ around after
> he was shot, but Cordy drove him off. Don't get me started on Cordy in
> this episode. Suffice to say her second rejection of Angel comes across
> as putting her own hurt feelings above the mission she supposedly cares
> so much about now.
>
>
> Mel
>
I figured that plot happened that we didn't see. Other
visions, other rescues, between episodes worth filming. Do
we know the number of days in Angelverse time between 'Your
fired' and 'I want to work for you'?
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>
>
>>I do think Darla
>>seems a little thick in not realizing that sex isn't always true
>>happiness (glad to see the show continuing to take my side on that
>>one).
>
>
> I don't think you're being fair to Darla. When I realized what Darla
> thought, I was taken back to Dear Boy when Angel said, "You took me places,
> showed me things, huh? You blew the top off my head. But you never made me
> happy." How hurt and angry Darla was at that. And how disbelieving. She
> was the definition of bliss.
>
> This scene choice works very well for me specifically because of what a big
> deal this would be for Darla. All the talk of how perfect the sex was isn't
> gratuitous. Right now in her vampire state she can't imagine a happiness
> more perfect than she witnessed. "You gave yourself over so completely,
> Angelus. I felt you surrender."
>
> In a way, I feel kind of badly for Darla. She thought this was her big
> triumph. But now, not only has she failed, she's been forced to face the
> irrefutable truth of what Angel told her in Dear Boy that she didn't want to
> believe. Darla has got to be hurting bad after this.
>
>
<sarcasm on> She's just a soulless evil evil thing. She can't possibly
feel emotional pain. <sarcasm off>
Just couldn't resist :-)
Mel
One Bit Shy
Mel
James Craine wrote:
Wesley said it was a few months, but it didn't really seem that long.
This is why on first view I thought the firing episode was the season
finale, because so much time supposedly passed in between. Seeing the
show in proper season format, however, kind of left me with a disconnect
because all this happened in 4-5 episodes, a little over a month real
time. But in show time it seems to have been about 4 months or maybe longer.
Mel
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Epiphany"
> (or "Threw up when I saw what I'd done/Oh, the wake-up bomb")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tom Wright
>
> Moving on past the crap, I was feeling like I wanted more Angel/Kate
> aftermath just as the episode delivered it. This is my favorite scene
> of the week, for its mix of various subdued tones - there's worry,
> some discomfort, relief, heartfelt gratitude, and a touch of humor.
> There's a kind of healing here that we don't see in Angel's
> interactions with anyone else. Also the lack of an invite is food for
> thought. I noticed it at the time and thought of it as a little bit of
> sloppyness, but it was part of the plan. The character who always wore
> a cross around her neck even before she met Angel suggests that
> there's a purpose or design after all. Don't know if this will be
> raised again, but I'd be fine with never knowing how he got in, as a
> deliberate blank spot in the mythology. A couple flakes of magic snow,
> if you will. As the quiet punchline to the episode's running joke,
> I'm a fan of "it sounds like you had an epiphany." "I keep saying
> that. But nobody's listening."
Unfortunately, this is the point when Kate decided to change her name to
Serena Southerlyn, and move to New York to begin a new career as a
lesbian ADA.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-218EF5...@news.giganews.com...
Yeah, I figured that had to be coming up here pretty soon. Oh, well. I'm
sure she got a pay raise out of it.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Serena Southerlyn, and move to New York to begin a new career as a
> lesbian ADA.
common factor in willow and kates lives
cordelia chase
gay em up cordy
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Mauro
Reunion, which ended with "you're fired" more or less, first aired December
19, 2000. Epiphanies first aired February 27, 2001. Five episodes aired
between them, so really this all happened in 7 episodes, not 4-5 -- will, I
guess it depends on if you are counting just the ones between or also
counting "you're fired" and "I want to work for you." At any rate, that's 7
episodes by my count, about a third of the second season, shown over a
little more than two months in "our" time. But I always assumed that in the
first couple of seasons, things continued to happen when we weren't
watching, i.e. the episodes are not the only adventures for Angel et al.
I think Mutant Enemy were always more willing to play with time on Angel
than they were on Buffy. On Buffy, each season appeared to more or less
start with the beginning of the school year and end with the beginning of
summer vacation. I guess there were never any summer apocalypses (or
apocalypsi, or apocalypso, or whatever the plural of apocalypse actually is
:-)
Besides Buffy, what shows can anyone think of that specified how much
"realtime" a season lasts? Aside from Buffy, off the top of my head I can
think of 24 with each episode being an hour, and Babylon 5, where each
season was supposed to be exactly one calendar year but the episodes were
not necessarily evenly spaced within that year. I haven't watched Veronica
Mars, but from what I understand, it seems to more or less follow the Buffy
method of dealing with one school year per season so far. Up until the last
half-hour of it's second season, the first two seasons of the new Battlestar
Galactica were supposed to have taken place within a span of only several
months.
Any others?
Stephen Tempest
>On a separate, but related note, I have a question for people who have
>watched both BtVS and AtS.
>
>With the influence of the PTB suggested for Angel's entrance into Kate's
>apartment - and just generally looking at the kinds of powers and demons and
>so on in AtS, I'm sensing a growing divergence in the nature of the
>universes in these two series.
>
>I'm curious how much people think of the two as one big universe - or rather
>two separate (if closely related) universes.
As the shows go on, there are more incongruities cropping up...
differences in tone, different supernatural entities appearing on each
show, and the fact that world-shaking apocalypses in Sunnydale
apparently have no effect in Los Angeles, and vice-versa. Another
difference is that on 'Angel' human characters, like Gunn and now
Wesley, can be effective anti-demon fighters despite their lack of
supernatural powers: something that wouldn't work stylistically on
'Buffy' because of that show's basic concept.
But I never lost the sense that these are the same universe; just
viewed from different perspectives, and with different stories being
told in each.
It probably helps that I'm one of those people who can enjoy the
story, the ideas, and the creators' intent - rather than obsessing
over the exact consistency of every little detail... <g>
Stephen
Mel
Well, I don't really count Reunion, because Redefinition picks up only a
few minutes later. Epiphany also picks up right where Reprise leaves
off. So, 5 episodes.
I certainly don't think much time passed bewtween The Thin Dead Line and
Epiphany because Wes is still in the wheelchair and still has stitches
that tend to tear if he tries to get up. The only place any significant
time could have passed is between Redifinition and Blood Money (when
Angel is following Anne around) or between BM, HA, and TTDL. But that
sure didn't seem like months either.
In any case, it's still a lot longer show time than real time. I don't
think Wesley's remark of a few months would strike me as so wrong if the
show had done more to indicate that much time went by.
>
> I think Mutant Enemy were always more willing to play with time on Angel
> than they were on Buffy. On Buffy, each season appeared to more or less
> start with the beginning of the school year and end with the beginning of
> summer vacation. I guess there were never any summer apocalypses (or
> apocalypsi, or apocalypso, or whatever the plural of apocalypse actually is
> :-)
Maybe demons take off for summer vacation too??
>
> Besides Buffy, what shows can anyone think of that specified how much
> "realtime" a season lasts? Aside from Buffy, off the top of my head I can
> think of 24 with each episode being an hour, and Babylon 5, where each
> season was supposed to be exactly one calendar year but the episodes were
> not necessarily evenly spaced within that year. I haven't watched Veronica
> Mars, but from what I understand, it seems to more or less follow the Buffy
> method of dealing with one school year per season so far. Up until the last
> half-hour of it's second season, the first two seasons of the new Battlestar
> Galactica were supposed to have taken place within a span of only several
> months.
>
> Any others?
>
Can't think of any right away, but I don't watch a lot of tv these days.
Mel
Mohamel
The people on Lost have been on the island for 60 odd days at the end of
season 2
mo
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-DA3BB...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > Unfortunately, this is the point when Kate decided to change her name to
> > Serena Southerlyn, and move to New York to begin a new career as a
> > lesbian ADA.
>
> common factor in willow and kates lives
>
> cordelia chase
>
> gay em up cordy
>
think if Cordy had kissed Kate early on in Season 1, the PTB would have
ditched her in a flash and passed her headache on to Kate. But never mind
the headache transference part, :p
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
as the play says
kiss me kate
3D Master
>> In a way, I feel kind of badly for Darla. She thought this was her
>> big triumph. But now, not only has she failed, she's been forced to
>> face the irrefutable truth of what Angel told her in Dear Boy that she
>> didn't want to believe. Darla has got to be hurting bad after this.
>>
>>
>
> <sarcasm on> She's just a soulless evil evil thing. She can't possibly
> feel emotional pain. <sarcasm off>
>
> Just couldn't resist :-)
Uh, whoever said that because your a soulless evil evil thing you can't
feel emotional pain? As soulless evil evil demon-animated corpse thing
you can't feel love, or selfless things. You have no capacity for good.
Those are two very different things.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152283266.9...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> > I do think Darla
> > seems a little thick in not realizing that sex isn't always true
> > happiness (glad to see the show continuing to take my side on that
> > one).
>
> I don't think you're being fair to Darla. When I realized what Darla
> thought, I was taken back to Dear Boy when Angel said, "You took me places,
> showed me things, huh? You blew the top off my head. But you never made me
> happy." How hurt and angry Darla was at that. And how disbelieving. She
> was the definition of bliss.
>
> This scene choice works very well for me specifically because of what a big
> deal this would be for Darla. All the talk of how perfect the sex was isn't
> gratuitous. Right now in her vampire state she can't imagine a happiness
> more perfect than she witnessed. "You gave yourself over so completely,
> Angelus. I felt you surrender."
>
> In a way, I feel kind of badly for Darla. She thought this was her big
> triumph. But now, not only has she failed, she's been forced to face the
> irrefutable truth of what Angel told her in Dear Boy that she didn't want to
> believe. Darla has got to be hurting bad after this.
Similarlyy chuckling at the "evil, evil thing" responses below, but
Darla as a whole is a pretty interesting study of the effect of a soul.
> > Speaking of whom, I totally called her having a vision of herself.
> > "That was helpful!" is still pretty funny.
>
> Damn. I sure didn't see that coming. But, yes, it's funny, albeit a little
> puzzling. Why *would* the PTB send such a useless vision? Is it just for
> the sake of a throwaway joke?
I'm not convinced the PTB are really so totally in control. They get
things just right sometimes, but sometimes they're more of a vague,
unfocused power.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Unfortunately, this is the point when Kate decided to change her name to
> Serena Southerlyn, and move to New York to begin a new career as a
> lesbian ADA.
Should one conclude from this that this is the last time we'll see her
on ATS? Yes, a yes-or-no answer is okay despite the spoilage involved.
If so, that sucks with the fury of a thousand, uh, suckers.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > puzzling. Why *would* the PTB send such a useless vision? Is it just for
> > the sake of a throwaway joke?
>
> I'm not convinced the PTB are really so totally in control. They get
powers that be what?
George W Harris
wrote:
:> Darla, of course, goes on to pit Lindsey against Angel so as to give
:> the episode a mid-show action sequence.
:
:It wasn't clear to me that was what Darla was doing. She struck me as
:somewhat conflicted about Lindsey. I'd be interested in other opinions. In
:any case, I really liked the shot composition of them sitting on the ends of
:the couch as far from each other as possible.
I've always felt that, since Darla was vamped
she's felt contempt for Lindsay, and was never doing
anything more than using him.
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I've always felt that, since Darla was vamped
> she's felt contempt for Lindsay, and was never doing
> anything more than using him.
I haven't seen any indication to suggest otherwise either, and t seems
particularly clear in Rep/Epiph. She seemed to be enjoying seeing how
much she could play wth his head in "Redefinition" too.
-AOQ
reld...@usa.net
--I notice nobody answered your query. Well, the one-word answer is
"yes."
And are you serious when you write that it sucks? I never enjoyed
Kate's character; always thought she was boring, and didn't fit in well
with AtS. It always seemed like a different show when Kate was on
screen -- not the AtS I eventually came to love, but just some generic
cop show.
Clairel
reld...@usa.net
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Epiphany"
> (or "Threw up when I saw what I'd done/Oh, the wake-up bomb")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tom Wright
>
> seems a little thick in not realizing that sex isn't always true
> happiness (glad to see the show continuing to take my side on that
> just for Angel's rambling attempts to make a coherent thought out of
> his epiphany, spelling things out for the viewer while allowing for
> some comedy as they talk past each other. There's also an element of
> dark parody of the bedroom scene from "Innocence," I think, with
> the monster hesitatingly asking whether "it" was good.
>
> interesting that she refers to the ring as "my pay" and acts like
> she doesn't want to be touched and is trying to get rid of him. One
> thing that's not made entirely clear is what exactly she tells him
> - the truth would probably be enough to get him seething, but Darla
> it's interesting that Angel apologizes for not having tried harder to
> help back in "Blind Date;" I didn't see him do anything wrong
> there.
--A bit of NG history that might be interesting for AOQ: the speech in
which Angel apologizes to Lindsey was inserted by the writer
specifically because of some complaints that somebody who used to post
on the NG was making during season 2. Her name was Trombley (a name
you might want to remember, AOQ, though I won't tell you the reason
why--just remember it, okay?). .Her criticisms of AtS on this NG
tended to be terribly self-righteous, humorless, and priggish. And she
made a big deal of the fact that Angel was supposed to help people and
save their souls, but he didn't even try with Lindsey: Angel was all
cynical and scoffing when Lindsey poured his heart out to Angel back in
the episode "Blind Date," etc., etc.
I don't really agree with any of that, but the writers took it
seriously enough to insert a speech just to correct what Trombley said
was wrong with Angel's treatment of Lindsey. And then, AOQ, you know
what was really rich?
Trombley didn't pay any attention to what Angel said to Lindsey during
this scene. She claimed she couldn't hear the dialogue properly or
couldn't focus on it because she was so distracted by all the violent
action going on at the same time.
Minear actually had to post here and explain to Trombley what he was
trying to do in that scene. And basically her response was just, "Oh."
You can google all this and read the relevant threads if you want to.
I'm surprised nobody else on this thread told you the story. Can't
believe I'm the only one who still remembers it. It maybe because
Trombley's posts annoyed me so much -- she was the complete antithesis
of me, as an AtS/BtVS fan and analyst.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
reld...@usa.net wrote:
> --A bit of NG history that might be interesting for AOQ: the speech in
> which Angel apologizes to Lindsey was inserted by the writer
> specifically because of some complaints that somebody who used to post
> on the NG was making during season 2. Her name was Trombley (a name
> you might want to remember, AOQ, though I won't tell you the reason
> why--just remember it, okay?).
> Her criticisms of AtS on this NG
> tended to be terribly self-righteous, humorless, and priggish. And she
> made a big deal of the fact that Angel was supposed to help people and
> save their souls, but he didn't even try with Lindsey: Angel was all
> cynical and scoffing when Lindsey poured his heart out to Angel back in
> the episode "Blind Date," etc., etc.
As he had reason to be...
> I don't really agree with any of that, but the writers took it
> seriously enough to insert a speech just to correct what Trombley said
> was wrong with Angel's treatment of Lindsey.
... but I suppose I can buy that Angel post-epiphany would feel guilty
about not saving him, regardless of whether it was justified. A more
satisfying explanation than "the hand of the writer," anyway.
Interesting history lesson. Actually, attempting to Google for some of
those posts led me to accidentally come across what I believe is the
reason the Tormbley name becomes relevant later. It's in no way a
spoiler of any significance, so no damage done; I'll say that it's a
great little in-joke.
-AOQ
William George Ferguson
wrote:
And to be fair to Sarah Trombley (who was a Harvard professor, maybe still
is), she had a complete lack of a sense of humor in much the same way that
you do, as evidenced by the fact that she adopted that quote as her sig.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Arbitrar Of Quality
If I'd discovered the 'verse sometime before a few years after it
ceased to exist, maybe we could've had Quality Demons.
-AOQ
~they'd be way too impressed with themselves~
~~and would irritate other demons by explaining at length why although
humans make perfectly pleasant prey to hunt, they wouldn't rank them
higher than "good"~
cry...@panix.com
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>> On 17 Jul 2006 19:11:05 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
>> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> >Interesting history lesson. Actually, attempting to Google
>> >for some of those posts led me to accidentally come across
>> >what I believe is the reason the Tormbley name becomes
>> >relevant later. It's in no way a spoiler of any significance,
>> >so no damage done; I'll say that it's a great little in-joke.
>>
>> And to be fair to Sarah Trombley (who was a Harvard professor,
>> maybe still is), she had a complete lack of a sense of humor in
>> much the same way that you do, as evidenced by the fact that
>> she adopted that quote as her sig.
> If I'd discovered the 'verse sometime before a few years after
> it ceased to exist, maybe we could've had Quality Demons.
Turn the Judge into . . . The Arbitrar! Who Buffy makes fun of by
pointing out that it's not a word, and who points to people and
judges them "Bad" or "Good", and who mouths "Excellent" before
going to the mall? :-)
--
-Crystal
sienamystic
reld...@usa.net wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Should one conclude from this that this is the last time we'll see her
> > on ATS? Yes, a yes-or-no answer is okay despite the spoilage involved.
> > If so, that sucks with the fury of a thousand, uh, suckers.
>
> --I notice nobody answered your query. Well, the one-word answer is
> "yes."
>
> And are you serious when you write that it sucks? I never enjoyed
> Kate's character; always thought she was boring, and didn't fit in well
> with AtS. It always seemed like a different show when Kate was on
> screen -- not the AtS I eventually came to love, but just some generic
> cop show.
I like Kate, and would have been fine seeing her continue to be a
small, but still important aspect of the show. It was interesting
seeing Angel negotiate around somebody who was not really interested in
his bigger good vs. evil war, but instead wanted to look out for the
people who got caught in the crossfire. An ally, but a reluctant one.
I think it could have gone to interesting places.
Genevieve
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"sienamystic" <siena...@gmail.com> wrote:
the problem is kate is a private eye cliche
the cop on the inside that feeds the good guy all the straight dope
i think theyre moving away from that season one
into a more mystical kind of show
and kate is no longer that useful a character
Arbitrar Of Quality
She wasn't just the cop on the inside any more than Angel was just a
private eye, though. Especially after, you know, getting kicked off
the force. I was always interested in the interactions between those
two characters, and in having a human who knew about Angel but was
neither part of his team (or necessarily a friend) nor a designated
villain. Angel/Kate episodes provided some of the few bright spots of
S1, although the show didn't seem to have much to do with her in S2
before "Reprise."
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1153263288.5...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I appreciated the chemistry the two characters had and the intense emotional
challenge that Angel represented to Kate. The police part was the mechanism
used to get them together, but not what made her interesting to me.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1fiob2d3fbl6h720g...@4ax.com...
Should I ask what quote you refer to?
OBS
Clairel
-- Oh, please! She was a Harvard graduate student, that's all. Her
department might have let her be a section leader on some lower-level
courses, but that's very different from being a "Harvard professor."
And no, I'm not shocked that Harvard would admit her to a program of
graduate study or make her a section leader, because Harvard has done
as much for lots of other people of whom I thoroughly disapprove. :)
The Humorless Clairel
William George Ferguson
I actually looked up the Harvard class schedule for that session, and she
was the listed instructor on 3 sections. GAs and TAs don't get that
listing, at least from my knowledge. I'm not disputing that she was a
graduate student at Harvard, just saying the class schedule showed her
also teaching sections as the teacher of record. I would refer to such a
person as 'professor' or 'faculty' by courtesy, whether they are a full
professor, assistant professor, associate professor, visiting professor,
or whatever other title a university might come up with.
--
You've reached the Tittles. We can't come to the phone right now
If you want to leave a message for Christine, Press 1
For Bentley, Press 2
Or to speak to, or worship, Master Tarfall, Underlord of Pain, Press 3