Why Don't They Just Bring Joyce Back?
SunBirdChic34
I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
Joyce?
FeLiCiTy23
involved the supernatural.
H. McDaniel
Buffy wouldn't let them for one thing ;)
-McDaniel
Kellee C.
any others either, according to Willow.
Kellee
"H. McDaniel" <noneof...@yourmammas.house> wrote in message
news:3C145850...@yourmammas.house...
Kungaloosh!
"SunBirdChic34" <sunbir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011210011359...@mb-fq.aol.com...
1. They could only bring Buffy back because she died of supernatural causes.
2. They used the last Urn of Osiris to do it.
3. I don't think Buffy would be in any hury to rip Joyce out of Heaven.
Tim Bruening
"Kellee C." wrote:
> Plus the urn of Osiris was broken during Buffy's ressurection. There aren't
> any others either, according to Willow.
I suggest that Super Witch Willow make some more!
First Fallen
They did...or at least they tried. Dawn was desperate to bring Joyce back,
so Spike took her to see Doc. He gave her a spell, but warned her that it
probably wouldn't turn out like she wanted. Dawn perfromed the spell, and
Joyce was resurrected. She made her way back to the Summers' home, but
before she got inside, Dawn was made to realize what she did was wrong, and
she broke the spell. The resurrected Joyce disappeared.
We were lead to believe that what came back wasn't at all like the Joyce
everyone knew. She came back wrong, possibly just an animated corpse.
The difference between Buffy's and Joyce's deaths were, Joyce died
naturally...she was supposed to die that way. Buffy's death was mystical,
and unnatrual. Because of the circumstances of Buffy's death, she could be
brought back, but Joyce can't...at least not come back as the person she
was.
Besides, Kristine Sutherland wanted to leave the show.
Marlowe
> I believe they said they were able to bring Buffy back because her death
> involved the supernatural.
She died from supernatural means, huh? I thought she died from hitting
the ground really hard. Shows what I know....
Mar
Peter Meilinger
:>I mean if they can bring back Buffy, then why dont they know bring back
: Joyce?
:>I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
:>Joyce?
: They did...or at least they tried. Dawn was desperate to bring Joyce back,
: so Spike took her to see Doc. He gave her a spell, but warned her that it
: probably wouldn't turn out like she wanted. Dawn perfromed the spell, and
: Joyce was resurrected. She made her way back to the Summers' home, but
: before she got inside, Dawn was made to realize what she did was wrong, and
: she broke the spell. The resurrected Joyce disappeared.
: We were lead to believe that what came back wasn't at all like the Joyce
: everyone knew. She came back wrong, possibly just an animated corpse.
Two things occur to me here:
1) Dawn isn't a spellcaster. We have no way of knowing whether Willow
and Tara could have done the spell right, or if the result we saw
was the only possible way Joyce would come back.
2) Buffy also apparently came back wrong, but I doubt very much
we'll get anyone rushing to cancel the resurrection spell.
: The difference between Buffy's and Joyce's deaths were, Joyce died
: naturally...she was supposed to die that way. Buffy's death was mystical,
: and unnatrual. Because of the circumstances of Buffy's death, she could be
: brought back, but Joyce can't...at least not come back as the person she
: was.
Yeah, but I always saw that as a flimsy rationale. I mean, first
we get a show whose whole message is "Don't tamper with death!" and
then a few episodes later, Buffy comes back from the dead. Again.
: Besides, Kristine Sutherland wanted to leave the show.
That would be the biggest reason, yeah.
Pete
mK[mark]
news:7c6aaabb.01121...@posting.google.com...
> She died from supernatural means, huh? I thought she died from hitting
> the ground really hard. Shows what I know....
>
> Mar
She died before she hit the ground. The portal closed the moment she died.
The portal closed while she was still in the air.
Sean Medlock
>Besides, Kristine Sutherland wanted to leave the show.
Which is the only explanation I need. Didn't she move to Europe?
Sean
salmoneous
> Besides, Kristine Sutherland wanted to leave the show.
But what's Sarah Chalke doing now?
Trivia time - in attempting find Ms. Chalke's name for the
oh-so-humorous post above, I typed a few words into Google and out
popped ...........
Alyson Hannigan!
Small world we live in. (Not to mention the whole Doyle thing.)
Ron Jarrell
She moved to Europe, Italy, I believe, some time ago. That's why
before last season she was scarce for a while. She was perfectly
willing to appear when needed, but the cost of flying her in from Italy
for an episode meant that they couldn't justify it unless there was a
really strong reason to have Joyce around for most of an episode, and
the episodes just weren't laying out that way. I don't think she
necessarily wanted to leave the show before they killed her; it was
just a dramatically appropriate time to do it.
H. McDaniel
>
> First Fallen <no...@nope.com> wrote:
> :>I mean if they can bring back Buffy, then why dont they know bring back
> : Joyce?
> :>I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
> :>Joyce?
>
> : They did...or at least they tried. Dawn was desperate to bring Joyce back,
> : so Spike took her to see Doc. He gave her a spell, but warned her that it
> : probably wouldn't turn out like she wanted. Dawn perfromed the spell, and
> : Joyce was resurrected. She made her way back to the Summers' home, but
> : before she got inside, Dawn was made to realize what she did was wrong, and
> : she broke the spell. The resurrected Joyce disappeared.
>
> : We were lead to believe that what came back wasn't at all like the Joyce
> : everyone knew. She came back wrong, possibly just an animated corpse.
>
> Two things occur to me here:
>
> 1) Dawn isn't a spellcaster. We have no way of knowing whether Willow
> and Tara could have done the spell right, or if the result we saw
> was the only possible way Joyce would come back.
>
> 2) Buffy also apparently came back wrong, but I doubt very much
> we'll get anyone rushing to cancel the resurrection spell.
I'd cancel her and resurrect Kristy Swanson.
-McDaniel
H. McDaniel
>
> Sean Medlock <sea...@aol.commapsquhp> wrote:
> > "First Fallen" no...@nope.com wrote:
>
> >>Besides, Kristine Sutherland wanted to leave the show.
>
> > Which is the only explanation I need. Didn't she move to Europe?
>
> She moved to Europe, Italy, I believe, some time ago. That's why
> before last season she was scarce for a while. She was perfectly
> willing to appear when needed, but the cost of flying her in from Italy
> for an episode meant that they couldn't justify it unless there was a
> really strong reason to have Joyce around for most of an episode, and
> the episodes just weren't laying out that way.
No doubt you mean flying here in first class or even on the Concorde, paying
for a couple hundred bucks worth of fruit for her dressing room, personal
assistant, a suite in a nice hotel (couple thousand a night), after hours
entertainment, limo to and from the airport... that kind of thing?
Just flying to Italy doesn't cost *that* much... unless you want to do it in
style and keep a suite permanently reseved in some hotel ;)
-McDaniel
DannyboymcNY
>From: sunbir...@aol.com (SunBirdChic34)
>Date: 12/10/2001 1:13 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20011210011359...@mb-fq.aol.com>
Because the Urn of Osiris was destroyed and because Kristine Sutherland chose
to leave the show.
DannyboymcNY
>From: tan...@bu.edu (Marlowe)
>Date: 12/10/2001 8:59 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <7c6aaabb.01121...@posting.google.com>
Buffy was dead before she hit hte ground. The portal sucked out her life.
TXHorns79
>>Joyce?
>>I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
>>Joyce?
>
mother did. Secondly, they had a replacement for Buffy so no one knew she was
dead. Everyone knows Joyce is dead, all her records list her as deceased. How
would they explain her sudden reappearance to everyone? Thirdly, there was
only one urn that Willow knew of and it was destroyed by the biker gang.
Lastly, Dawn did try to bring Joyce back and it worked, but she canceled the
spell at the last minute when she realized it was wrong and what might come
back might not be the Joyce that she wants to come back.
>Because the Urn of Osiris was destroyed and because Kristine Sutherland chose
>to leave the show.
>
I thought I remember reading that Kristine was just living abroad and that was
the reason she was seen so little in Season 4, but Joss asked her to come back
to appear more in Season 5 because he wanted to kill off her character? I
thought it was more his decision than hers, but I could be wrong.
ElfBard
> dead. Everyone knows Joyce is dead, all her records list her as deceased.
How
> would they explain her sudden reappearance to everyone
<Joyce> I'm getting better!
Sean Sinclair
> >Joyce?
> >I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
> >Joyce?
>
> Because the Urn of Osiris was destroyed and because Kristine Sutherland
chose
> to leave the show.
Besides... even if they could get past all the obstacles people have
mentioned in this thread... remember the look of horror on Willow's face
when Buffy revealed that she'd been ripped out of "Heaven" in OMWF? Joss
has said in interviews that he wanted to bring Buffy back in a way that
didn't trivialize bringing someone back from the dead, and I thought the
Heaven plot twist was a good way of getting that point home. The scoobies
probably all agree it's best to let Joyce rest in peace.
DannyboymcNY
>Date: 12/10/2001 5:50 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3c15a...@news.iprimus.com.au>
I wouldn't even bother with explanations. Just say that you're back and so
obviously not dead.
BAD
wrote:
I wouldn't even bother with explanations. Just say that you're back
and so
obviously not dead.
Insurance fraud!
Mark Brown
Osiris is generally a pretty even-tempered deity, but I imagine even he'll
get annoyed if the same group comes to him and asks him to break the rules
for them ~again.~
Mark
"Not without some ~major~ favours."
Philip Chien
sunbir...@aol.com writes:
>I mean if they can bring back Buffy, then why dont they know bring back Joyce?
>I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
>Joyce?
A simple question, but a complicated answer because there are so many
reasons.
The actress who played Joyce was interested in leaving the series. While
it would have been possible to recast the past (is Susan Sarandon
available?) that's undesirable. Coinciding with this was Joss Whedon's
decision that it would make a good story to kill off a major supporting
character. What makes it extremely significant is it was a loved
character from the very beginning of Buffy, a character extremely close
to Buffy, and a natural death (not caused by a demon or living on a
Hellmouth). The net result was one of the strongest most critically
aclaimed shows - "The Body" (to be aired on UPN on December 18th).
Many fans though that Joyce's death wasn't real, that her new boyfriend
caused it, Dawn as the key would touch Joyce and bring her back to life,
or Dawn's spell would bring her back to life. They didn't. Unlike
every(?) other death we've seen in the Buffyverse Joyce died of natural
reasons and her death is permanent. That's pretty significant from a
story telling perspective. Look at Spock's death in 'The Weath o Khan" -
big deal, they brought him back in the very next movie - and even told
you they were going to do so in the title 'The Search for Spock". Death
was the best thing to happen to Tasha Yar's character on "Star Trek: The
Next Generation". But Joyce was the only major BtVS character (as
opposed to a one-shot guest star, or even a supporting role for a season
- like Jenny Calendar). Jenny's death was a major story point - and it
had a major impact on the viewers because her relationship with Giles was
just getting serious. But it was death by vampire, hardly something
unusual in Sunnydale - even though Angelius went out of his way to make
sure it was as painful as possible for Giles also.
So bringing Joyce back to life - not quite perfect or perfect - would
cheapen "The Body" and upset fans which expect better storylines.
And Willow does note tha there are consquences to bringing back anybody
from the dead, even if she gives Dawn the information she needs to find
the spells which Dawn attempts to use.
So why was it okay to bring Buffy back? Well, UPN would be rather upset
if Mutant Enemy and Fox just delievered 22 empty hour-long videotapes ;-)
There's little doubt in the viewer's mind that Buffy _will_ return from
the dead, the only question is how. Let's face it, it's not much of a
spoiler if it's on a giant billboard! The logic is Buffy's death was
supernatural - going through the rift - and when her body hit the ground
it was already dead. And Willow was convinced that Buffy's supernatural
death could have put her soul in limbo and she needed to bring Buffy back
from hell. Okay, so she was wrong - herck, we all make mistakes. ;-)
I don't see any contradiction with leaving Joyce to rest in peace after
her natural death vs. trying to restore Buffy after her supernatural
death. Or how either was executed.
That having been said, they were awfully close to each other, a couple of
seasons between the two would have offered more perspective.
Philip Chien, KC4YER (at) amsat.org
Earth News - space writer and consultant
my E-mail address is purposely incorrect to avoid SPAM-bots. I will not
accept any unsolicited E-mail or commercial advertisements.
Smaug69
> In article <20011210011359...@mb-fq.aol.com> SunBirdChic34,
> sunbir...@aol.com writes:
> >I mean if they can bring back Buffy, then why dont they know bring back Joyce?
> >I know its a hard thing to do and all but if it worked for Buffy, why not
> >Joyce?
>
> A simple question, but a complicated answer because there are so many
> reasons.
>
> The actress who played Joyce was interested in leaving the series. While
> it would have been possible to recast the past (is Susan Sarandon
> available?) that's undesirable. Coinciding with this was Joss Whedon's
> decision that it would make a good story to kill off a major supporting
> character. What makes it extremely significant is it was a loved
> character from the very beginning of Buffy, a character extremely close
> to Buffy, and a natural death (not caused by a demon or living on a
> Hellmouth). The net result was one of the strongest most critically
> aclaimed shows - "The Body" (to be aired on UPN on December 18th).
>
> Many fans though that Joyce's death wasn't real, that her new boyfriend
> caused it, Dawn as the key would touch Joyce and bring her back to life,
> or Dawn's spell would bring her back to life. They didn't. Unlike
> every(?) other death we've seen in the Buffyverse Joyce died of natural
> reasons and her death is permanent. That's pretty significant from a
> story telling perspective. Look at Spock's death in 'The Weath o Khan" -
Is it wrath or wreath? ;-)
> big deal, they brought him back in the very next movie - and even told
> you they were going to do so in the title 'The Search for Spock".
I have a friend that refuses to watch ST III because they pussied out.
> Death
> was the best thing to happen to Tasha Yar's character on "Star Trek: The
> Next Generation". But Joyce was the only major BtVS character
I think you lost your train of thought here. Choo choo.
>(as opposed to a one-shot guest star, or even a supporting role for a
season
> - like Jenny Calendar). Jenny's death was a major story point - and it
> had a major impact on the viewers because her relationship with Giles was
> just getting serious. But it was death by vampire, hardly something
> unusual in Sunnydale - even though Angelius went out of his way to make
> sure it was as painful as possible for Giles also.
>
> So bringing Joyce back to life - not quite perfect or perfect - would
> cheapen "The Body" and upset fans which expect better storylines.
If they want those kind of storylines, Guiding Light comes on every
day at 3PM EST.
> And Willow does note tha there are consquences to bringing back anybody
> from the dead, even if she gives Dawn the information she needs to find
> the spells which Dawn attempts to use.
>
> So why was it okay to bring Buffy back? Well, UPN would be rather upset
> if Mutant Enemy and Fox just delievered 22 empty hour-long videotapes ;-)
Didn't they sign a 44 episode deal?
> There's little doubt in the viewer's mind that Buffy _will_ return from
> the dead, the only question is how. Let's face it, it's not much of a
> spoiler if it's on a giant billboard! The logic is Buffy's death was
> supernatural - going through the rift - and when her body hit the ground
> it was already dead. And Willow was convinced that Buffy's supernatural
> death could have put her soul in limbo and she needed to bring Buffy back
> from hell. Okay, so she was wrong - herck, we all make mistakes. ;-)
It was a logical assumption, but actually going through with it was a
huge step for her. The consequences of which will play out the rest of
the series.
> I don't see any contradiction with leaving Joyce to rest in peace after
> her natural death vs. trying to restore Buffy after her supernatural
> death. Or how either was executed.
I agree.
> That having been said, they were awfully close to each other, a couple of
> seasons between the two would have offered more perspective.
In the eyes of some people- I think- they were damned if they did and
damned if they didn't.(regarding anything the writers did after The
Body)
Smaug69