AOQ Review 1-12: "Prophecy Girl"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
(or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
_Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
seems like an ending. The major plots of Season One come to a
conclusion, and the character dynamics reach a point where our heroes
can walk off into the sunset (i.e. nightclub). And lots of stuff gets
blowed up real good too. If everything finished here, "Prphecy
Girl" would put the appropriate cap on Buffy: The Miniseries.
It doesn't start that way. In fact, things open pretty generically;
Xander likes Buffy, the Master likes talking, Buffy tolerates killing
vampires, and Giles has an affinity for ominous prophecies. But it
becomes clear early on that it's time to actually move ahead with
things; I think the moment that really happens is when Xander seemingly
overcomes the script's attempts to drag the scene out and finally
makes his move on Buffy. From there I like how they quickly brush past
the standard TV attempts to be noncommittal about it ("look, either
you feel something or you don't") while finding time to slip in a
joke or two ("... or if she does, she's playing it really close to
the vest"). The aftermath is well played; Xander knows he
shouldn't lash out at Buffy, but it's impossible not to feel at
least a little angry. She doesn't blame him for that, they
understand each other, but there's just nothing either of them can
say to make the situation any less unpleasant. The followup scene
between Xander and Willow is also pretty good for some of the same
reasons.
Buffy's day doesn't get any better. Not only has Angel been
avoiding her, but there's the whole impending death thing. Her
reaction is to say "fuck it, I don't care about the world."
Childish in the greater scheme of things, but a reasonable reaction
from a sixteen-year-old who hasn't quite accepted that life isn't
fair. This is one of those scenes that I imagine would be difficult
from an actor's perspective. It calls for the ability to give an
emotionally-charged monologue that consists mostly of yelling without
sounding too histrionic or melodramatic, and it moves from sarcasm to
frustration to violent anger and ends with a mix of guilt and fear
("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
Obviously, this thread echoes "Welcome To the Hellmouth." Back
then it seemed like a token reluctant-hero routine that served mainly
to let the show announce to the audience that it was all hip and
self-aware and stuff. Twelve episodes later, we have a much better
sense of where Buffy's coming from. The symmetry continues in that
Willow is the one who ultimately draws Buffy back into Slayership. In
the end, she's a hero who'll do what has to be done.
Speaking of heroics, let's not forget how awesome it is seeing Xander
come through in the clutch, realizing that Angel is the key to helping
Buffy and coming in prepared to deal with him. Xander's actions take
courage and all that, but also require him to have a good sense of what
he can and can't personally handle. I do wonder how he got ahold of
our friendly vampire, though: if Angel was ever given a permanent
address at which he could be reliably found, I missed it. The sequence
makes one wonder what it says about Angel, that he was willing to sit
around until someone came along to coax him into helping. Now that our
writing staff seems to have finally really figured out who Xander is, I
may have to start pulling for a B/X relationship, although I'm open
to alternatives. (I also refuse to use the term "shipper" or
combine characters' names; you gotta have some standards.)
The other development worth mentioning in the early parts of the
episode is that the show seems to be ready to shake up the core
four-heroes dynamic by letting Calendar and Cordelia hang out with the
clique. The former is still entertaining enough, although I can't
say I really care about her all that much either way; if the writers
decide that Giles should have someone his own age to banter with, who
am I to argue? As for the latter character, well, I guess she's
mysteriously recovered from Sunnydale Forgetty-itis now that it's in
the script. The exchanges between her and Willow have a good rhythm to
them, enough so that I wonder why the two of them haven't been given
more scenes together ("I like your dress." "No you don't."
"Yeah, I really don't, but I do need your help.") A policy of
mutual tolerance makes sense from both sides; Cordelia gets someone to
do her nerdy work and indirect access Buffy when needed, and Willow
gets to pretend to have more than two friends. (Cordelia still sucks,
though. I'm not backing down on that one so easily.)
Eventually the die is cast and Buffy goes to meet her fate. [BTW, Mrs.
Quality didn't think it seemed quite in-character for her to just
punch out Giles that way. I disagree.] There're two outstanding
scenes during this sequence, both of which involve the theme of
skipping the standard drawn-out stuff and getting on with things. The
first is Buffy's laconic meeting with Colin. I didn't really
expect that the prophecy's "lead her into Hell" would turn out to
be so literal. And then the initial confrontation with the Master is
handled perfectly. Buffy, terrified but not showing it at all. The
Master sees right through it, starts to suggest that they skip the
"feeble banter stage," and she shoots him mid-sentence. So very
BTVS.
For the record, CPR doesn't tend to work very well unless you open an
airway (by tilting the patient's head) first. Also, unless you have
one of those electric shocky things (and sometimes even then), CPR
doesn't too often revive people so much as just keep them alive until
real help arrives. Just saying. Also, I'm afraid I don't really
buy "clinically dead" as an acceptable prophecy loophole.
The ending sequences almost have to be something of a letdown given the
gooey goodness that have lead up to them. They're still quite fun,
if a little silly for their own good. The car ride through the school
and the various monsters in the library make me imagine the crew saying
"we've got some leftover budget, and dammit, we're gonna use
it." It's like a music video. As I was watching the final
confrontation, I wondered whether it would seem dumb to a new viewer
who'd just flipped over to the show We care, though, because
through twelve episodes of varying quality, the series has succeeded in
making us interested in what happens to these people. (Some shows
benefit from being viewed as a complete work, yes?) In the end, the
world is saved, and I hope the Master stays dead. He's served his
purpose; it's time to make a fresh start.
Any idea what happened to Colin?
I haven't mentioned the scene with Joyce Summers yet, since it ties
into the closing thoughts. But I think it's probably my favorite of
the mother-daughter scenes so far. They can't talk about everything,
but they do manage real affection from time to time. I assumed that
Buffy's penchant for stylized one-liners was just the difference
between Teen Hero and Outside World, but this episode suggests from
whom she really got her sense of humor ("I'm sure you're just
feeling full from that food you almost touched.") The dress is too
nice a gesture to ruin by mentioning that it's less appropriate in
the face of impending death. And of course it leads to the show's
big running joke (well, two, if you count the unspoken one that the
dress somehow stays spotless), which is quite fun. The final iteration
of the gag which closes the episode gives us one last smile, and going
out with a wry joke seems like an appropriate note on which to conclude
Buffy: The Miniseries.
Well. I think I'll give myself a little summer hiatus, and you can
speculate over whether my reviews will be renewed for another season
(hint: yes). Meet me back here in a week or so for Season Two.
So....
One-sentence summary: A near-perfect way to end Season One.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season One ratings:
1) "Welcome To The Hellmouth" - Good
2) "The Harvest" - Decent
3) "Witch" - Excellent
4) "Teacher's Pet" - Decent
5) "Never Kill A Boy On The First Date" - Decent
6) "The Pack" - Excellent
7) "Angel" - Good
8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak
9) "The Puppet Show" - Decent
10) "Nightmares" - Good
11) "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight" - Decent
12) "Prophecy Girl" - Excellent]
BY THE NUMBERS
_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ Season One
ABOMINATION - 0
Bad - 0
Weak - 1
Decent - 5
Good - 3
Excellent - 3
SUPERLATIVE - 0
Average rating: 3.67 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ so far
See "Season One"
Average ratings by season:
S1 - 3.67
Series so far - See S1
Eric Hunter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
> (or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
> I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
> _Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
> seems like an ending.
If memory serves, Joss knew that they had been renewed
by the time PG was filmed, but not at the time it was
plotted to conclude the season.
> The exchanges between her [Cordelia] and Willow have a
> good rhythm to them, enough so that I wonder why the two
> of them haven't been given more scenes together ("I like
> your dress." "No you don't." "Yeah, I really don't, but I do
> need your help.") A policy of mutual tolerance makes
> sense from both sides; Cordelia gets someone to do
> her nerdy work and indirect access Buffy when needed,
> and Willow gets to pretend to have more than two friends.
> (Cordelia still sucks, though. I'm not backing down on that
> one so easily.)
But she is becoming more three-dimensional, isn't she?
> I'm afraid I don't really buy "clinically dead" as an
> acceptable prophecy loophole.
Well, ... she was dead, and would have remained dead
if not for the CPR The prophecy didn't say she'd STAY
dead, after all. ;-)
> Any idea what happened to Colin?
Yes, but we can't tell you. There has been a pattern
established in BtVS already that events in one episode
affect characters in future episodes, i.e. Cordy
remembers that Buffy helped her in OSOM, and so
is more inclined to treat her with some respect in PG.
That pattern also applies to seasons. What happened
in S1 will be remembered in S2-S7, and those
experiences will affect the characters.
Eric.
--
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Stay tuned....
>
> I haven't mentioned the scene with Joyce Summers yet, since it ties
> into the closing thoughts. But I think it's probably my favorite of
> the mother-daughter scenes so far. They can't talk about everything,
> but they do manage real affection from time to time. I assumed that
> Buffy's penchant for stylized one-liners was just the difference
> between Teen Hero and Outside World, but this episode suggests from
> whom she really got her sense of humor ("I'm sure you're just
> feeling full from that food you almost touched.") The dress is too
> nice a gesture to ruin by mentioning that it's less appropriate in
> the face of impending death. And of course it leads to the show's
> big running joke (well, two, if you count the unspoken one that the
> dress somehow stays spotless), which is quite fun. The final iteration
> of the gag which closes the episode gives us one last smile, and going
> out with a wry joke seems like an appropriate note on which to conclude
> Buffy: The Miniseries.
>
> Well. I think I'll give myself a little summer hiatus, and you can
> speculate over whether my reviews will be renewed for another season
> (hint: yes). Meet me back here in a week or so for Season Two.
Woohoo! If you liked Season 1, I think it's safe to say you'll love
Season 2. It's the season that reeled me in and made Buffy a must see
Tuesday night event. :)
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
> I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
> _Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
> seems like an ending.
They had no idea if they'd get a second season. The first episode still
hadn't aired when they wrapped the finale.
> Buffy's day doesn't get any better. Not only has Angel been
> avoiding her, but there's the whole impending death thing. Her
> reaction is to say "fuck it, I don't care about the world."
> Childish in the greater scheme of things, but a reasonable reaction
> from a sixteen-year-old who hasn't quite accepted that life isn't
> fair. This is one of those scenes that I imagine would be difficult
> from an actor's perspective. It calls for the ability to give an
> emotionally-charged monologue that consists mostly of yelling without
> sounding too histrionic or melodramatic, and it moves from sarcasm to
> frustration to violent anger and ends with a mix of guilt and fear
> ("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
> absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
>
> Obviously, this thread echoes "Welcome To the Hellmouth." Back
> then it seemed like a token reluctant-hero routine that served mainly
> to let the show announce to the audience that it was all hip and
> self-aware and stuff. Twelve episodes later, we have a much better
> sense of where Buffy's coming from. The symmetry continues in that
> Willow is the one who ultimately draws Buffy back into Slayership. In
> the end, she's a hero who'll do what has to be done.
Part of the synchronicity is from them going back and refilming the
confrontation between Buffy and Giles in WTTH after they finished
'Prophecy Girl.'
They did that scene three times, once for the presentation, once when
they filmed WTTH, and again after they were done with 'Prophecy Girl.'
Joss joked that he wanted to do a "Back to the Future" type episode, so
he could make SMG do that scene *again*.
> Any idea what happened to Colin?
Yes, and I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Mike Zeares
things I agree with. So I have practically nothing to say about your
review. Except, perhaps, for the traditional "I agree with this post."
A few random comments...
"Prophecy Girl" was my "Best Episode Ever" for a long, long time, and
it's still way up there.
One scene you didn't mention was when Cordy and Willow found the guys
in the A/V room. It was a moment of true horror on a series that
usually undercuts the horror with humor. There was nothing funny
there. I remember being really freaked out by that bloody handprint on
the t.v.
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> The aftermath is well played; Xander knows he
> shouldn't lash out at Buffy, but it's impossible not to feel at
> least a little angry.
It's hard for me to listen to the dialogue in that scene. On a good
day I can take it. But it often hits too close to home.
> ("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
> absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
The phrase "hit it out of the park" would be an understatment. I am
spellbound by that scene every single time I watch it. The part that
just kills me is her quiet "do you think it'll hurt?"
> Eventually the die is cast and Buffy goes to meet her fate. [BTW, Mrs.
> Quality didn't think it seemed quite in-character for her to just
> punch out Giles that way. I disagree.]
I agree with you. [grin] William George Ferguson used to have a .sig
that went something like, "From day one, Buffy only resorts to thought
after she has established that violence won't work."
> For the record, CPR doesn't tend to work very well unless you open an
> airway (by tilting the patient's head) first. Also, unless you have
> one of those electric shocky things (and sometimes even then), CPR
> doesn't too often revive people so much as just keep them alive until
> real help arrives. Just saying.
My crap-garbage theory has always been that Xander didn't save her.
She was dead, and Something Else sent her back. This is based mostly
on the slight focus shift that occurs just as Buffy opens her eyes.
But that's just my opinion.
> Well. I think I'll give myself a little summer hiatus, and you can
> speculate over whether my reviews will be renewed for another season
> (hint: yes). Meet me back here in a week or so for Season Two.
Ok. Good, that'll give me time to complete my BSG marathon that I just
started.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Mine too.
-- Mike Zeares
Carlos Moreno
>> Any idea what happened to Colin?
>
> Yes, and I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
No, *we*'d have to kill *you* ... for spoiling the poor guy even
though he asked not to!! ;-)
Carlos
--
Daniel Damouth
news:1138078439.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>> For the record, CPR doesn't tend to work very well unless you
>> open an airway (by tilting the patient's head) first. Also,
>> unless you have one of those electric shocky things (and
>> sometimes even then), CPR doesn't too often revive people so much
>> as just keep them alive until real help arrives. Just saying.
>
> My crap-garbage theory has always been that Xander didn't save
> her. She was dead, and Something Else sent her back. This is
> based mostly on the slight focus shift that occurs just as Buffy
> opens her eyes.
I always notice the little magical sound effect. And then she
miraculously feels stronger, and can resist the Master's hypno. I
think the "miracle" interpretation is supportable.
-Dan Damouth
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
I hope you appreciate the heroic effort everyone has made, not to say,
'Wait until you see Prophecy Girl'.
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
>(or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
>Writer: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
>
>Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
>I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
>_Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
>seems like an ending. The major plots of Season One come to a
>conclusion, and the character dynamics reach a point where our heroes
>can walk off into the sunset (i.e. nightclub). And lots of stuff gets
>blowed up real good too. If everything finished here, "Prphecy
>Girl" would put the appropriate cap on Buffy: The Miniseries.
They had no guarantee when they shot Prophecy Girl that there would even
be a first season aired. The 12 episodes were shot in the fall of 1996,
and were all finished long before Welcome to the Hellmouth aired in March
of 1997. In fact, as Don Sample mentions, parts of WttH was re-shot to
fit better with PG. Also, you may have noticed that scenes from Prophecy
Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm) at the start of WttH. Prophecy Girl
was very definitely deliberately shot so that it could serve as a series
finale if necessary.
>It doesn't start that way. In fact, things open pretty generically;
>Xander likes Buffy, the Master likes talking, Buffy tolerates killing
>vampires, and Giles has an affinity for ominous prophecies. But it
>becomes clear early on that it's time to actually move ahead with
>things; I think the moment that really happens is when Xander seemingly
>overcomes the script's attempts to drag the scene out and finally
>makes his move on Buffy. From there I like how they quickly brush past
>the standard TV attempts to be noncommittal about it ("look, either
>you feel something or you don't") while finding time to slip in a
>joke or two ("... or if she does, she's playing it really close to
>the vest").
"On a scale of one to ten, it sucked."
>The aftermath is well played; Xander knows he
>shouldn't lash out at Buffy, but it's impossible not to feel at
>least a little angry. She doesn't blame him for that, they
>understand each other, but there's just nothing either of them can
>say to make the situation any less unpleasant. The followup scene
>between Xander and Willow is also pretty good for some of the same
>reasons.
The most important thing about the scene is, Willow grows a backbone. At
the start she's willing to play the Buffy part, just so she can have
Xander vicariously pitching woo at her. When he off-handedly asks her to
the dance after being (politely) shot down by Buffy, she shoots him down
not nearly so politely.
>Buffy's day doesn't get any better. Not only has Angel been
>avoiding her, but there's the whole impending death thing. Her
>reaction is to say "fuck it, I don't care about the world."
>Childish in the greater scheme of things, but a reasonable reaction
>from a sixteen-year-old who hasn't quite accepted that life isn't
>fair. This is one of those scenes that I imagine would be difficult
>from an actor's perspective. It calls for the ability to give an
>emotionally-charged monologue that consists mostly of yelling without
>sounding too histrionic or melodramatic, and it moves from sarcasm to
>frustration to violent anger and ends with a mix of guilt and fear
>("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
>absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
>Obviously, this thread echoes "Welcome To the Hellmouth." Back
>then it seemed like a token reluctant-hero routine that served mainly
>to let the show announce to the audience that it was all hip and
>self-aware and stuff. Twelve episodes later, we have a much better
>sense of where Buffy's coming from. The symmetry continues in that
>Willow is the one who ultimately draws Buffy back into Slayership. In
>the end, she's a hero who'll do what has to be done.
And, after a season with cheesy robots, horny dummies, silly insect women,
and so on, you have a simple scene absolutely pure horror, the A/V room
scene.
>Speaking of heroics, let's not forget how awesome it is seeing Xander
>come through in the clutch, realizing that Angel is the key to helping
>Buffy and coming in prepared to deal with him. Xander's actions take
>courage and all that, but also require him to have a good sense of what
>he can and can't personally handle. I do wonder how he got ahold of
>our friendly vampire, though: if Angel was ever given a permanent
>address at which he could be reliably found, I missed it. The sequence
>makes one wonder what it says about Angel, that he was willing to sit
>around until someone came along to coax him into helping. Now that our
>writing staff seems to have finally really figured out who Xander is, I
>may have to start pulling for a B/X relationship, although I'm open
>to alternatives. (I also refuse to use the term "shipper" or
>combine characters' names; you gotta have some standards.)
The cute name combos got used for some other couplings later on, but this
particular triangle pretty much stayed B/A and B/X all the way through in
the discussions.
>The other development worth mentioning in the early parts of the
>episode is that the show seems to be ready to shake up the core
>four-heroes dynamic by letting Calendar and Cordelia hang out with the
>clique. The former is still entertaining enough, although I can't
>say I really care about her all that much either way; if the writers
>decide that Giles should have someone his own age to banter with, who
>am I to argue? As for the latter character, well, I guess she's
>mysteriously recovered from Sunnydale Forgetty-itis now that it's in
>the script.
Her being forced to go to Buffy for help in OOMOOS pretty much broke
through the forgetty effect. Plus, a whole parking lot full of vamps will
get your attention. (and note, Cordy bites a vamp, maybe the first time
I've ever seen that particular reversal happen with vampires)
>The exchanges between her and Willow have a good rhythm to
>them, enough so that I wonder why the two of them haven't been given
>more scenes together ("I like your dress." "No you don't."
>"Yeah, I really don't, but I do need your help.") A policy of
>mutual tolerance makes sense from both sides; Cordelia gets someone to
>do her nerdy work and indirect access Buffy when needed, and Willow
>gets to pretend to have more than two friends. (Cordelia still sucks,
>though. I'm not backing down on that one so easily.)
What this episode did better than previous episodes is show, rather than
just tell us, that these kids have known each other their entire lives.
Willow isn't Marcie, some faceless kid in the background that Cordelia
didn't notice (heck, Xander and Williow didn't even notice her), this is a
girl that can tell stories about her from the 2nd and 3rd grade.
>Eventually the die is cast and Buffy goes to meet her fate. [BTW, Mrs.
>Quality didn't think it seemed quite in-character for her to just
>punch out Giles that way. I disagree.]
Plus it set up the wonderful exchange between Buffy and Jenny
"When he comes to, tell him... I don't know, make up something cool and
tell him I said it."
>There're two outstanding
>scenes during this sequence, both of which involve the theme of
>skipping the standard drawn-out stuff and getting on with things. The
>first is Buffy's laconic meeting with Colin. I didn't really
>expect that the prophecy's "lead her into Hell" would turn out to
>be so literal. And then the initial confrontation with the Master is
>handled perfectly. Buffy, terrified but not showing it at all. The
>Master sees right through it, starts to suggest that they skip the
>"feeble banter stage," and she shoots him mid-sentence. So very
>BTVS.
>
>For the record, CPR doesn't tend to work very well unless you open an
>airway (by tilting the patient's head) first. Also, unless you have
>one of those electric shocky things (and sometimes even then), CPR
>doesn't too often revive people so much as just keep them alive until
>real help arrives. Just saying. Also, I'm afraid I don't really
>buy "clinically dead" as an acceptable prophecy loophole.
What can I say, Buffy flunked the written.
And as Zeares says, there's a lot of us that speculated that Xander didn't
revive her unaided. In that scene, Xander has actually stopped doing the
the CPR and is staring at Angel over her body when her eyes flip open and
she coughs up some water.
This was very heavily debated, well, for a long time, much longer than
jsut the summer of 97. The phrase we tended to use for the unknown
'something' that we thought intervened was 'Mystical Force For Good', or
MFFG for short.
[skip discussion of the dress "Yeah, yeah, big hit with everyone."]
And leaving with the final word on the Master
"Loser."
"Buffy Summers never resorts to thought until she establishes that
violence won't work"
-me
See you in a week or so, for another 'written and directed by...'
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Daniel Damouth
archived).
Do other people laugh in the middle of the somber montage of pain, at
the point when Xander is actually listening to country music (Patsy
Cline)?
I've long thought that that was a perfect superposition of sadness and
humor. One of Joss's hallmarks, for me, has been combining sadness and
humor at the same time.
-Dan Damouth
Mike Zeares
Daniel Damouth wrote:
> My days of posting organized comments about the show are gone (but
> archived).
>
> Do other people laugh in the middle of the somber montage of pain, at
> the point when Xander is actually listening to country music (Patsy
> Cline)?
I laughed out loud the first time. It's always gotten a smile from me
since then.
-- Mike Zeares, whose archived comments are mostly of the disorganized
variety.
Mike Zeares
William George Ferguson wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2006 18:57:57 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
>
> I hope you appreciate the heroic effort everyone has made, not to say,
> 'Wait until you see Prophecy Girl'.
I nearly had to knock myself unconscious.
> Prophecy Girl
> was very definitely deliberately shot so that it could serve as a series
> finale if necessary.
There's an alternate universe where BtVS aired on FOX and was cancelled
after S1. The last episode aired was the two-hour pilot "Welcome to
the Hellmouth."
> And, after a season with cheesy robots, horny dummies, silly insect women,
> and so on, you have a simple scene absolutely pure horror, the A/V room
> scene.
Vampires never seemed scarier on the show. And there weren't even any
in the scene.
This just occurred to me, almost 9 years later. We saw Willow's
reaction to that scene. But we didn't see Cordelia dealing with it.
We saw the result -- her arrival in the nick (sp?)of time. She
obviously went through a similar epiphany as Willow. It was personal
now. The process started in OOM.... But holding her dead boyfriend
made it impossible for her to ignore the obvious any more. She was In
The Know, about the vampires, and about Buffy. It's impressive to me
how quickly she got to the same mental space as the Slayerettes. Well,
Cordy never was a "oh, this can't be happening!" kind of girl.
-- Mike Zeares (ouch, that was a lot of thoughts)
John Briggs
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
>> (or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
>> Writer: Joss Whedon
>> Director: Joss Whedon
>>
>> Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
>> I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
>> _Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
>> seems like an ending.
>
> If memory serves, Joss knew that they had been renewed
> by the time PG was filmed, but not at the time it was
> plotted to conclude the season.
Memory doesn't serve. The whole first season was completed before the
premiere aired. The decision to renew must have been taken shortly
afterwards, but on the basis of the suits' reaction to the whole season
rather than the public's.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> In article <1138071477.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
>> I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
>> _Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
>> seems like an ending.
>
> They had no idea if they'd get a second season. The first episode
> still hadn't aired when they wrapped the finale.
They clearly intended a second season - there's a glaring great plothole
sitting in the middle of the frame :-)
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> On 23 Jan 2006 18:57:57 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>
> I hope you appreciate the heroic effort everyone has made, not to say,
> 'Wait until you see Prophecy Girl'.
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
>> (or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
>> Writer: Joss Whedon
>> Director: Joss Whedon
>>
>> Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
>> I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
>> _Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
>> seems like an ending. The major plots of Season One come to a
>> conclusion, and the character dynamics reach a point where our heroes
>> can walk off into the sunset (i.e. nightclub). And lots of stuff
>> gets blowed up real good too. If everything finished here, "Prphecy
>> Girl" would put the appropriate cap on Buffy: The Miniseries.
>
> They had no guarantee when they shot Prophecy Girl that there would
> even be a first season aired. The 12 episodes were shot in the fall
> of 1996, and were all finished long before Welcome to the Hellmouth
> aired in March of 1997.
It was a bit tighter than that - "Prophecy Girl", the re-shoots and
additional scenes for WttH and "The Harvest" were shot at the very end of
January.
> In fact, as Don Sample mentions, parts of WttH was re-shot to fit better
> with PG.
That was NOT the reason for the re-shoots!
> Also, you may have noticed
> that scenes from Prophecy Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm) at the
> start of WttH. Prophecy Girl was very definitely deliberately shot
> so that it could serve as a series finale if necessary.
That was the case with each season finale.
--
John Briggs
Espen Schjønberg
>>her. She was dead, and Something Else sent her back. >
>
I vote no to this. It is just the filmmakers being a bit weak on how to
jump-start a human.
> And then she
> miraculously feels stronger, and can resist the Master's hypno.
Thats because she now meets him for the second time. She's got some
Borg-qualities.
--
Espen
John Briggs
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
> (or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
>
> into the closing thoughts. But I think it's probably my favorite of
> the mother-daughter scenes so far. They can't talk about everything,
> but they do manage real affection from time to time. I assumed that
> Buffy's penchant for stylized one-liners was just the difference
> between Teen Hero and Outside World, but this episode suggests from
> whom she really got her sense of humor ("I'm sure you're just
> feeling full from that food you almost touched.")
She gets it from the writer (see above).
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
>
> The final iteration of the gag which closes the episode gives us one last
> smile, and going out with a wry joke seems like an appropriate note on
> which to conclude Buffy: The Miniseries.
It was an afterthought - it wasn't in the original script.
--
John Briggs
shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
> (or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
Aha - the good stuff...
> Joss takes the camera himself for the final show of the first season.
> I'm not clear on exactly how certain or uncertain the future of
> _Buffy_ was for the creators at this point, but "Prophecy Girl"
> seems like an ending.
Even where they did know they were coming back the season finales
usually worked as an ending.
>The major plots of Season One come to a
> conclusion, and the character dynamics reach a point where our heroes
> can walk off into the sunset (i.e. nightclub). And lots of stuff gets
> blowed up real good too. If everything finished here, "Prphecy
> Girl" would put the appropriate cap on Buffy: The Miniseries.
>
> It doesn't start that way. In fact, things open pretty generically;
> Xander likes Buffy, the Master likes talking, Buffy tolerates killing
> vampires,
'tolerates' is an odd word. In the opening teaser she's clearly
enjoying it, despite complaining to Giles that it's getting tougher.
> and Giles has an affinity for ominous prophecies. But it
> becomes clear early on that it's time to actually move ahead with
> things; I think the moment that really happens is when Xander seemingly
> overcomes the script's attempts to drag the scene out and finally
> makes his move on Buffy.
Anyone who's ever been in Xander's position, a probably doomed attempt
to get the girl of your dreams, knows that that's how it feels -
there's always a part of you that wants to drag it out, both for fear
of actually doing it and for fear of hearing the inevitable 'no', and
then when you finally do summon up the courage you grab the moment with
both hands and go for it quickly so's you won't have time to back out.
I think Joss captured it precisely.
> From there I like how they quickly brush past
> the standard TV attempts to be noncommittal about it ("look, either
> you feel something or you don't") while finding time to slip in a
> joke or two ("... or if she does, she's playing it really close to
> the vest"). The aftermath is well played; Xander knows he
> shouldn't lash out at Buffy, but it's impossible not to feel at
> least a little angry. She doesn't blame him for that, they
> understand each other, but there's just nothing either of them can
> say to make the situation any less unpleasant. The followup scene
> between Xander and Willow is also pretty good for some of the same
> reasons.
Yep. This is what Joss does. Pain, rejection and angst. This is where
he lives.
>
> Buffy's day doesn't get any better. Not only has Angel been
> avoiding her, but there's the whole impending death thing. Her
> reaction is to say "fuck it, I don't care about the world."
> Childish in the greater scheme of things, but a reasonable reaction
> from a sixteen-year-old who hasn't quite accepted that life isn't
> fair. This is one of those scenes that I imagine would be difficult
> from an actor's perspective. It calls for the ability to give an
> emotionally-charged monologue that consists mostly of yelling without
> sounding too histrionic or melodramatic, and it moves from sarcasm to
> frustration to violent anger and ends with a mix of guilt and fear
> ("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
> absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
>
Yep. Gellar's a superb actor in my view and this is a scene that
showcases why. However as is often the case, she's also doing a lot of
good work that you don't necessarily notice because it's not as
'flashy'. Also I think she didn't always get credit for performance
when people were less sympathetic to the character.
> Obviously, this thread echoes "Welcome To the Hellmouth." Back
> then it seemed like a token reluctant-hero routine that served mainly
> to let the show announce to the audience that it was all hip and
> self-aware and stuff. Twelve episodes later, we have a much better
> sense of where Buffy's coming from. The symmetry continues in that
> Willow is the one who ultimately draws Buffy back into Slayership. In
> the end, she's a hero who'll do what has to be done.
>
> Speaking of heroics, let's not forget how awesome it is seeing Xander
> come through in the clutch, realizing that Angel is the key to helping
> Buffy and coming in prepared to deal with him. Xander's actions take
> courage and all that, but also require him to have a good sense of what
> he can and can't personally handle. I do wonder how he got ahold of
> our friendly vampire, though: if Angel was ever given a permanent
> address at which he could be reliably found, I missed it.
Well Giles has his phone number.
>The sequence
> makes one wonder what it says about Angel, that he was willing to sit
> around until someone came along to coax him into helping. Now that our
> writing staff seems to have finally really figured out who Xander is, I
> may have to start pulling for a B/X relationship, although I'm open
> to alternatives. (I also refuse to use the term "shipper" or
> combine characters' names; you gotta have some standards.)
>
That's a relief but let me encourage you not to 'pull for' any
particular relationship too much. A lot of people other the years have
ended up not enjoying stuff because they were too busy pulling for X
and weren't able to enjoy Y when it happened instead. That certainly
happened to me early on, but I flatter myself I learnt from it.
> The other development worth mentioning in the early parts of the
> episode is that the show seems to be ready to shake up the core
> four-heroes dynamic by letting Calendar and Cordelia hang out with the
> clique. The former is still entertaining enough, although I can't
> say I really care about her all that much either way; if the writers
> decide that Giles should have someone his own age to banter with, who
> am I to argue? As for the latter character, well, I guess she's
> mysteriously recovered from Sunnydale Forgetty-itis now that it's in
> the script. The exchanges between her and Willow have a good rhythm to
> them, enough so that I wonder why the two of them haven't been given
> more scenes together ("I like your dress." "No you don't."
> "Yeah, I really don't, but I do need your help.") A policy of
> mutual tolerance makes sense from both sides; Cordelia gets someone to
> do her nerdy work and indirect access Buffy when needed, and Willow
> gets to pretend to have more than two friends. (Cordelia still sucks,
> though. I'm not backing down on that one so easily.)
Fair enough. At least one of my favourite characters in the show was
someone I wasn't keen on to begin with.
>
> Eventually the die is cast and Buffy goes to meet her fate. [BTW, Mrs.
> Quality didn't think it seemed quite in-character for her to just
> punch out Giles that way. I disagree.] There're two outstanding
> scenes during this sequence, both of which involve the theme of
> skipping the standard drawn-out stuff and getting on with things. The
> first is Buffy's laconic meeting with Colin. I didn't really
> expect that the prophecy's "lead her into Hell" would turn out to
> be so literal.
No. Did you feel it was a cop-out? I think I sort of did the first time
I saw it. But it moves the story forward to where it needs to go - the
Buffy/Master confrontation - so I don't really care.
> And then the initial confrontation with the Master is
> handled perfectly. Buffy, terrified but not showing it at all. The
> Master sees right through it, starts to suggest that they skip the
> "feeble banter stage," and she shoots him mid-sentence. So very
> BTVS.
Indeed :)
>
> For the record, CPR doesn't tend to work very well unless you open an
> airway (by tilting the patient's head) first. Also, unless you have
> one of those electric shocky things (and sometimes even then), CPR
> doesn't too often revive people so much as just keep them alive until
> real help arrives. Just saying.
I don't know if I go in for the mystical theories that others have but
I do know Buffy's stronger than a normal human, so her body doesn't
necessarily work exactly the same. Again though, it's a story thing.
> Also, I'm afraid I don't really
> buy "clinically dead" as an acceptable prophecy loophole.
>
Well those that write the prophecies get to decide that.
> The ending sequences almost have to be something of a letdown given the
> gooey goodness that have lead up to them. They're still quite fun,
> if a little silly for their own good. The car ride through the school
> and the various monsters in the library make me imagine the crew saying
> "we've got some leftover budget, and dammit, we're gonna use
> it." It's like a music video. As I was watching the final
> confrontation, I wondered whether it would seem dumb to a new viewer
> who'd just flipped over to the show
Probably, but I don't think I'd ever use that as a criteria for judging
any show. If a show has to make sense at any point without the forgoing
part of the episode, never mind stuff from previous episodes, then I
can't see how you could make anything but the most bland, predictable,
formulaic... Ohhhh.
> We care, though, because
> through twelve episodes of varying quality, the series has succeeded in
> making us interested in what happens to these people. (Some shows
> benefit from being viewed as a complete work, yes?)
Or if not as a complete work then they at least allow for continuity. I
think looking back at 1997, the 90s in general, it was around that time
that TV shows started to have ongoing stories and developing characters
rather than the big reset button at the end of the episode. Actually I
suspect we'd had that here in the UK a little longer because your
scheduling system favours shows that can be (re-)watched easily.
>In the end, the
> world is saved, and I hope the Master stays dead. He's served his
> purpose; it's time to make a fresh start.
>
I kind of liked him when he was being funny. The speech at the
beginning where he does the typical overblown villain speech during the
earthquake and then turns to Colin and says 'What do you reckon 4.5?'
was priceless. But I think you're right.
It'll be interesting to see what you make of the next crop of baddies.
> Any idea what happened to Colin?
Of course. Look, I'll make a deal with you: I'll continue the Herculean
effort of biting my tongue every time I see something that begs for a
reference to an upcoming episode and in return how about you not ask
direct questions the answers to which can only be spoilers. Deal?
>
> I haven't mentioned the scene with Joyce Summers yet, since it ties
> into the closing thoughts. But I think it's probably my favorite of
> the mother-daughter scenes so far. They can't talk about everything,
> but they do manage real affection from time to time. I assumed that
> Buffy's penchant for stylized one-liners was just the difference
> between Teen Hero and Outside World, but this episode suggests from
> whom she really got her sense of humor ("I'm sure you're just
> feeling full from that food you almost touched.")
If you think that's good, wait til you see... (remembers deal)
>The dress is too
> nice a gesture to ruin by mentioning that it's less appropriate in
> the face of impending death.
>From a dramatic stylistic metaphor-y point of view that's kind of the
point. From a story point of view - of course it's inappropriate but
Buffy's mom doesn't know what's going to happen so it'd be suspicious
for Buffy to leave the house not wearing it. I also get the feeling
Buffy's decided that she may be about to die but she's darn well going
to wear her dress
> And of course it leads to the show's
> big running joke (well, two, if you count the unspoken one that the
> dress somehow stays spotless), which is quite fun. The final iteration
> of the gag which closes the episode gives us one last smile, and going
> out with a wry joke seems like an appropriate note on which to conclude
> Buffy: The Miniseries.
>
> Well. I think I'll give myself a little summer hiatus, and you can
> speculate over whether my reviews will be renewed for another season
> (hint: yes). Meet me back here in a week or so for Season Two.
>
Cool.
Mike Zeares
John Briggs wrote:
> She gets it from the writer (see above).
That's a rather Mugglish way of looking at a fictional work. I'm just
sayin'.
-- Mike Zeares
shuggie
John Briggs wrote:
I'd say that's a radical definition of 'afterthought' given that script
revision is a standard process.
Mike Zeares
shuggie wrote:
> Yep. This is what Joss does. Pain, rejection and angst. This is where
> he lives.
I think it was David Greenwalt who said, "If Joss had had one good day
in high school, none of us would be here."
>
> Of course. Look, I'll make a deal with you: I'll continue the Herculean
> effort of biting my tongue every time I see something that begs for a
> reference to an upcoming episode and in return how about you not ask
> direct questions the answers to which can only be spoilers. Deal?
Yeah, no kidding. Questions like that make me suspect he's actually
fully familiar with the series and is just playing as if he's watching
it for the first time. Of course, I also suspect my neighbors are
attacking me with microwaves and that the Russians created Hurricane
Katrina (that's what I get for listening to late-night talk radio).
-- Mike Zeares, adjusting tinfoil
Mike Zeares
I can't remember if that last "I like your dress" bit was something
that David and Sarah came up with, or if it was something that Joss
added. I seem to recall reading something about it somewhere, but
finding the reference would be hopeless now.
-- Mike Zeares
kenm47
"the appropriate cap on Buffy: The Miniseries"
This is what I was suggesting earlier about trying to view the episode
as if you did not know the show would continue to a second season.
That was me then. I think not knowing added a lot to the experience at
the time at least for this lifetime TV addict.
According to Joss, all 12 episodes of Season 1, a mid-season
replacement, were in the can before WttH aired. He also wanted an
"end" in case there was no renewal. I gave him major points for
that. So, when Buffy was "killed" I accepted that maybe she was,
that her tale was told. When she came back "strong," and then
killed the big bad, I once again figured it was over. I mean where do
you go from there with the Big Bad disposed of. Needless to say, that
there was a Season 2 was good news to me.
BTW, another footnote for a pop culture reference dated in 1997 and
which I believe most missed and which I've never seen
"officially" acknowledged. "You have fruit punch mouth" and
then Buffy punches him - refers to a then dated advertising campaign
for Hawaiian Punch fruit drink where one cartoon character asked the
other "How about a Hawaiian Punch?," second character says
"Sure," and first character then punches second.
As to Xander/Buffy, the best thing about all of that (aside form
Country music being the music of pain) is that second choice Willow has
the ability to say "No." Xander still comes off as a foolishly
lusting teenager, and jealous. Yes, he's very important in this
episode in getting Angel to help him, but in one way or another every
one of the team is important for the final victory, including Cordy
rescuing Willow and Jenny.
The big denouement scene as you point out is just amazing. Up until now
Buffy seems to never really think about the danger she is in, the
possibility that she'll die. The prophecy makes that all too real.
"Do you think it'll hurt?" is as great a line in that scene as
"Giles, I'm sixteen years old. I don't wanna die." I mean after
"wow!" what is there to say?
Then we get the AV room tableau. The bloody palm print on the TV screen
showing the 3 Little Pigs. Just brilliant, as is Willow's speech to
Buffy when Buffy accepts her roll.
Buffy punching out Giles is right in character IMO (and a nice follow
up to Jenny's amazement that Buffy is The Slayer yet "so little."
A very important scene as Giles realizes the Anointed One may be a
child. But the prophecy is: "The Slayer will not know him, and he
will lead her into Hell." And what does overhearing Buffy say?
"So, I'm looking for a kid, huh? And he'll lead me to the Master?"
And what does she say to the Anointed One? "It's okay. I know who you
are." What to make of this? It wasn't sloppy writing. It was
letting the audience know these prophecy things are tricky business.
Bits of business I did not care for all that much: the power march to
the too loud theme, the vamp they run into but knock down instead of
dust, and "Loser" which to me then seemed an unnecessary line.
At the time I did not care that Angel had no breath for Buffy, but had
breath to speak, and just as he gets to Buffy and pulls her from the
water he's panting. Now it's slightly irritating.
BTW, I think we all liked her dress.
I'm glad you liked it, AOQ. I do think it's at worst an Excellent+
grade. Extra credit was deserved if only for Joss being willing to give
the fans closure of a sort if there was never to be an episode 13.
Thanks again for a reason to rewatch Season 1.
Ken (Brooklyn)
John Briggs
It's in "The Watcher's Guide" episode guide - reprinted in the S1 set
booklet.
--
John Briggs
shuggie
William George Ferguson wrote:
> The most important thing about the scene is, Willow grows a backbone. At
> the start she's willing to play the Buffy part, just so she can have
> Xander vicariously pitching woo at her. When he off-handedly asks her to
> the dance after being (politely) shot down by Buffy, she shoots him down
> not nearly so politely.
I'm not so sure about this. I think in the first scene it's something
Willow is consciously doing. As far as Xander's concerned he's
practicing and Willow's well aware that he's not asking her, so he's
not 'using' her at all. If anything it's Willow that's using the
experience to fantasize and get a little vicarious thrill.
When Xander asks her to the dance right after Buffy turned him down
then he *is* using Willow. He's treating her as a consolation prize, a
substitute and that's not fair. Also he goes out of his way to make
sure she knows it's not a proper date (even though we know he secretly
knows that's what she wants).
I think refusing to help Xander practice would be much more a statement
whereas refusing to be his also-ran was perfectly reasonable.
John Briggs
It is. The line is not in the early script version that I have. I haven't
got the published script book, so can't tell if it made it to the final
shooting script. I think you should check that before criticising what I
wrote. 'The Watcher's Guide' says "added during production", whatever
*that* means - I think they mean 'during post-production'. Would that
qualify as 'afterthought'?
--
John Briggs
kenm47
I do know Buffy's stronger than a normal human, so her body doesn't
necessarily work exactly the same. Again though, it's a story thing. "
I just figured there was something in The Master's saliva that when
mixed with Slayer blood gave Buffy an extra special strength boost,
sort of the mirror of The Master getting extra strength from drinking
Buffy's blood.
I wasn't reading posts back then, so this is the first I think I've
heard of the MFFG theory for Buffy's resurrection. I do think something
more than Xander's CPR was involved, but I'll stick with it being
Xander that actually prined the pump.
Ken (Brooklyn)
shuggie
shuggie wrote:
> >
> > Buffy's day doesn't get any better. Not only has Angel been
> > avoiding her, but there's the whole impending death thing. Her
> > reaction is to say "fuck it, I don't care about the world."
> > Childish in the greater scheme of things, but a reasonable reaction
> > from a sixteen-year-old who hasn't quite accepted that life isn't
> > fair. This is one of those scenes that I imagine would be difficult
> > from an actor's perspective. It calls for the ability to give an
> > emotionally-charged monologue that consists mostly of yelling without
> > sounding too histrionic or melodramatic, and it moves from sarcasm to
> > frustration to violent anger and ends with a mix of guilt and fear
> > ("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
> > absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
> >
>
> Yep. Gellar's a superb actor in my view and this is a scene that
> showcases why. However as is often the case, she's also doing a lot of
> good work that you don't necessarily notice because it's not as
> 'flashy'. Also I think she didn't always get credit for performance
> when people were less sympathetic to the character.
>
I forgot to mention that Ash deserves credit here too. The fact that
he's largely reacting shouldn't detract from the fact that's he's
contributing hugely to the scene.
kenm47
he's largely reacting shouldn't detract from the fact that's he's
contributing hugely to the scene."
Ditto
Ken (Brooklyn)
shuggie
Mike Zeares wrote:
> It is typical of me that I have very little to say in response to
> things I agree with. So I have practically nothing to say about your
> review. Except, perhaps, for the traditional "I agree with this post."
> A few random comments...
>
> "Prophecy Girl" was my "Best Episode Ever" for a long, long time, and
> it's still way up there.
>
> One scene you didn't mention was when Cordy and Willow found the guys
> in the A/V room. It was a moment of true horror on a series that
> usually undercuts the horror with humor. There was nothing funny
> there. I remember being really freaked out by that bloody handprint on
> the t.v.
>
Yeah. Joss recently said that they 'forgot to make [BtVS] scary' - this
is one ep where they didn't.
shuggie
John Briggs wrote:
> shuggie wrote:
> > John Briggs wrote:
> >
> >> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The final iteration of the gag which closes the episode gives us
> >>> one last smile, and going out with a wry joke seems like an
> >>> appropriate note on which to conclude Buffy: The Miniseries.
> >>
> >> It was an afterthought - it wasn't in the original script.
> >
> > I'd say that's a radical definition of 'afterthought' given that
> > script revision is a standard process.
>
> It is. The line is not in the early script version that I have. I haven't
> got the published script book, so can't tell if it made it to the final
> shooting script. I think you should check that before criticising what I
> wrote.
I have my own criteria for criticising you, thanks. I'm criticising you
because you're being overly pedantic and using that pedantry to attack
something I admire. I can't remember the last time you posted something
positive, or even positively negative (as in "I hate this
character/plotline") rather than all this quibbling about dates of
scripts, definitions of 'pilot' and so on. You are tripping over the
roots of the trees, never looking up to see the beautiful wood you're
in.
>'The Watcher's Guide' says "added during production", whatever
> *that* means - I think they mean 'during post-production'. Would that
> qualify as 'afterthought'?
I just dislike the word 'afterthought' as it carries implications that
this was kind of careless, happy accident whereas in fact what you
have, on most TV shows not just BtVS, is a constant series of
adjustments, of creative decisions. I dislike that you effectively
dismiss a good one because it happened late in the process.
John Briggs
> John Briggs wrote:
>> shuggie wrote:
>>> John Briggs wrote:
>>>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The final iteration of the gag which closes the episode gives us
>>>>> one last smile, and going out with a wry joke seems like an
>>>>> appropriate note on which to conclude Buffy: The Miniseries.
>>>>
>>>> It was an afterthought - it wasn't in the original script.
>>>
>>> I'd say that's a radical definition of 'afterthought' given that
>>> script revision is a standard process.
>>
>> It is. The line is not in the early script version that I have. I
>> haven't got the published script book, so can't tell if it made it
>> to the final shooting script. I think you should check that before
>> criticising what I wrote.
>
> I have my own criteria for criticising you, thanks. I'm criticising
> you because you're being overly pedantic and using that pedantry to
> attack something I admire.
I'm not attacking anything. I made a factual observation. If there was a
point to it, it was to issue a caution against believing that everything was
pre-planned. In this case, it would appear that the final effect was
created during editing. Don't you find that interesting?
> I can't remember the last time you posted
> something positive, or even positively negative (as in "I hate this
> character/plotline") rather than all this quibbling about dates of
> scripts, definitions of 'pilot' and so on. You are tripping over the
> roots of the trees, never looking up to see the beautiful wood you're
> in.
Perhaps I should mention that I don't think much of your criteria?
>> 'The Watcher's Guide' says "added during production", whatever
>> *that* means - I think they mean 'during post-production'. Would
>> that qualify as 'afterthought'?
>
> I just dislike the word 'afterthought' as it carries implications that
> this was kind of careless, happy accident whereas in fact what you
> have, on most TV shows not just BtVS, is a constant series of
> adjustments, of creative decisions. I dislike that you effectively
> dismiss a good one because it happened late in the process.
Who's giving radical interpretations of the word 'afterthought' now? The
word carries no such implications. "Careless", no - "happy", yes. That's
exactly what it was. Had it occurred to Joss earlier he would have scripted
it. And had someone else been directing, it probably wouldn't have
happened. Why did you imagine that by studying the development of the
scripts, and the relationship between the scripts and the finished
programmes, I might have somehow missed the "constant series of
adjustments"? BTW, most TV shows are not like BtVS. "Creative decisions"
is much too polite for them :-)
I would suggest that sticking to factual details avoids the dangers of
over-emotional interpretation :-)
(I know someone who dislikes the word 'squirrel', and someone else who
objects to the word 'gift'. They are both mocked for their foibles.)
--
John Briggs
Espen Schjønberg
> At the time I did not care that Angel had no breath for Buffy, but had
> breath to speak, and just as he gets to Buffy and pulls her from the
> water he's panting. Now it's slightly irritating.
Angels panting is _very_ irritating. In every episode he pants. But this
is probably the actors only way of displaying stress etc.
Regards the breath as life-saving tool: it is possible Angel is lying,
he just doesnt know how to do this, or he is to afraid just at the time
being for breaking the girl (given she is a slayer, weak one that)or my
personal favorite: (which I am the only one to advocate, apparently:) in
the Buffyverse, this is bordering to magic, and to breath life in
someone you cannot be dead. So a machine couldn't have done it, and
neither a vampire. Or at least Angels suspects something like this, and
ask the living person to do it to optimize the probabilities.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
kenm47
Thank you,
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
someone you cannot be dead. So a machine couldn't have done it, and
neither a vampire. Or at least Angels suspects something like this, and
ask the living person to do it to optimize the probabilities."
I like it.
Thanks.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Carlos Moreno
> Yeah, no kidding. Questions like that make me suspect he's actually
> fully familiar with the series and is just playing as if he's watching
> it for the first time. Of course, I also suspect my neighbors are
> attacking me with microwaves
Your neighbours *are* attacking you with microwaves... Or did you
think for a second that they like you?! ;-)
> and that the Russians created Hurricane
> Katrina (that's what I get for listening to late-night talk radio).
Got this one wrong -- Katrina was created by the American government
to attack the Russians; but then, they appointed NASA scientists to
make calculations; once again, those incompetent idiots mixed the
scientific international metric standard with their idiotic inches
and other non-standard units, so the miscalculation led to a
disastrous self-attack.
Carlos
--
John Briggs
> On 24.01.2006 14:40, kenm47 wrote:
>
>> At the time I did not care that Angel had no breath for Buffy, but
>> had breath to speak, and just as he gets to Buffy and pulls her from
>> the water he's panting. Now it's slightly irritating.
>
> Angels panting is _very_ irritating. In every episode he pants. But
> this is probably the actors only way of displaying stress etc.
Or indicating that the actor doesn't take enough exercise. That he was only
slim because he couldn't get work, and thus eat. Foreshadowing that with
success he would rapidly put on weight, causing havoc with continuity :-)
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> Can you two please take it outside (at least outside this thread).
We were arguing over a point which is highly relevant to this thread. Did
you realise that the "Loser" line you hate so much was Joss's original
keynote for the end of this scene?
--
John Briggs
kenm47
Did
you realise that the "Loser" line you hate so much was Joss's original
keynote for the end of this scene?
--
John Briggs"
You seem to feel a need to turn this thread into adversarial arguments.
I don't.
BTW, Joss is not God. And I didn't say I hate it, "so much" or at all.
I said "I did not care for all that much" and
"to me then seemed an unnecessary line."
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Bits of business I did not care for all that much: the power march to
> the too loud theme,
I've always liked that. It's the only time in the entire series that
they used the theme music in an episode.
(I don't think they even used it the way they did at the end, with a
soft, piano rendition of it, in any other episode.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
John Briggs
> You seem to feel a need to turn this thread into adversarial arguments. I
> don't.
I see. So "Can you two please take it outside (at least outside this
thread)" was not adversarial?
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> In article <1138110012.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Bits of business I did not care for all that much: the power march to
>> the too loud theme,
>
> I've always liked that. It's the only time in the entire series that
> they used the theme music in an episode.
>
> (I don't think they even used it the way they did at the end, with a
> soft, piano rendition of it, in any other episode.)
Except as the theme to OMWF, of course. (That was the only way I recognised
it!)
--
John Briggs
kenm47
No, it was a polite request for courteous behavior. Sorry you can't
tell the difference.
BTW, I'm done chatting with you.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
But it's not like he was doing a lot of strenuous running through sewers
before they filmed that scene. He'd probably been sitting around
waiting for the lighting guys to get set up, and memorizing his lines
for the next scene he had to do.
There's the story about Dustin Hoffman in 'Marathon Man.' He'd do
things like go out and run around the block before he had to do a scene
where he was supposed to be tired from running. Lawrence Olivier
supposedly told him "You should try acting, it's much less work" after
he'd done something like that too many times.
shuggie
Perhaps I should cut this short by pointing out that if you truly
believe that 'afterthought' is value neutral then I accept that you're
weren't intending to be critical. However 'afterthought' almost always
has negative associations when I hear it used ("The plot was fine but
the characterisation was an afterthought", "I liked the dress but her
hat looked like an afterthought", "It's a car designed for speed,
comfort is an afterthought") hence our definitions are (radically)
different. Which was my point.
John Briggs
> John Briggs wrote:
>> kenm47 wrote:
>>>
>>> You seem to feel a need to turn this thread into adversarial
>>> arguments. I don't.
>>
>> I see. So "Can you two please take it outside (at least outside this
>> thread)" was not adversarial?
>
> tell the difference.
Who died and made you the boss?
--
John Briggs
shuggie
John Briggs wrote:
Buffy, but only for a second ;)
John Briggs
I think you will find that (generally speaking) the dictionaries support me
:-)
--
John Briggs
kenm47
things like go out and run around the block before he had to do a scene
where he was supposed to be tired from running. Lawrence Olivier
supposedly told him "You should try acting, it's much less work" after
he'd done something like that too many times."
LOL
BTW, that reminds me. I don't think AOQ or any responses commented on
what IMO was terrific stunt double work that first year. I know there
are times when you say "That's a double," but much more often than not
no such thought crossed my mind to take me out of the moment.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> There's an alternate universe where BtVS aired on FOX and was cancelled
> after S1. The last episode aired was the two-hour pilot "Welcome to
> the Hellmouth."
Heh.
> This just occurred to me, almost 9 years later. We saw Willow's
> reaction to that scene. But we didn't see Cordelia dealing with it.
> We saw the result -- her arrival in the nick (sp?)of time. She
> obviously went through a similar epiphany as Willow. It was personal
> now. The process started in OOM.... But holding her dead boyfriend
> made it impossible for her to ignore the obvious any more. She was In
> The Know, about the vampires, and about Buffy. It's impressive to me
> how quickly she got to the same mental space as the Slayerettes. Well,
> Cordy never was a "oh, this can't be happening!" kind of girl.
Except for when the script says she is. "The Harvest" comes to mind.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Do other people laugh in the middle of the somber montage of pain, at
> the point when Xander is actually listening to country music (Patsy
> Cline)?
>
> I've long thought that that was a perfect superposition of sadness and
> humor. One of Joss's hallmarks, for me, has been combining sadness and
> humor at the same time.
It made me smile. I actually also laughed at Willow calling and Xander
hanging up without answering. Sad, but done in a funny way.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> That's a relief but let me encourage you not to 'pull for' any
> particular relationship too much. A lot of people other the years have
> ended up not enjoying stuff because they were too busy pulling for X
> and weren't able to enjoy Y when it happened instead. That certainly
> happened to me early on, but I flatter myself I learnt from it.
Well, like I said, I'm open to alternatives. I just think as of
finishing watching PG, I'd kinda like to see Buffy and Xander get
together. But I have absolutely no objections to B/A, B/lonely
forever, B/Sp... (yes, flipping through bad fanfiction in my MSTing
days did make me aware that there's someone else I haven't met yet
who'll be relevant). Just as long as it's done well, that is.
> I didn't really
> > expect that the prophecy's "lead her into Hell" would turn out to
> > be so literal.
>
> No. Did you feel it was a cop-out? I think I sort of did the first time
> I saw it. But it moves the story forward to where it needs to go - the
> Buffy/Master confrontation - so I don't really care.
Actually, I thought it was kinda clever to do it that way.
> > Any idea what happened to Colin?
>
> Of course. Look, I'll make a deal with you: I'll continue the Herculean
> effort of biting my tongue every time I see something that begs for a
> reference to an upcoming episode and in return how about you not ask
> direct questions the answers to which can only be spoilers. Deal?
It's like a presidential debate; I'm only addressing other people
"rhetorically" ;-).
As far as Colin goes, I thought Joss just forgot about him since he'd
fufilled his role; I couldn't imagine him outliving his creator.
Watching BTVS with expectations... I don't know what I was thinking.
Arbitrar Of Quality
>
> > Yeah, no kidding. Questions like that make me suspect he's actually
> > fully familiar with the series and is just playing as if he's watching
> > it for the first time.
I don't enjoy having my integrity questioned. [that was flippant,
which is hard to convey in text]. I assure you that I write each
review with no knowledge of anything yet to come.
Carlos Moreno wrote:
> > and that the Russians created Hurricane
> > Katrina (that's what I get for listening to late-night talk radio).
>
> Got this one wrong -- Katrina was created by the American government
> to attack the Russians; but then, they appointed NASA scientists to
> make calculations; once again, those incompetent idiots mixed the
> scientific international metric standard with their idiotic inches
> and other non-standard units, so the miscalculation led to a
> disastrous self-attack.
But what about Scarecrow's brain?
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:1138108978.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> shuggie wrote:
>
>> Yep. This is what Joss does. Pain, rejection and angst. This is where
>> he lives.
>
> I think it was David Greenwalt who said, "If Joss had had one good day
> in high school, none of us would be here."
>
>>
>> Of course. Look, I'll make a deal with you: I'll continue the Herculean
>> effort of biting my tongue every time I see something that begs for a
>> reference to an upcoming episode and in return how about you not ask
>> direct questions the answers to which can only be spoilers. Deal?
>
> fully familiar with the series and is just playing as if he's watching
> Katrina (that's what I get for listening to late-night talk radio).
I suspected the same from the outset, and I'm not given to paranoia or
conspiracy theories (I even belief that Oswald killed JFK, probably acting
alone).
But perhaps the truth lies somewhere between the 5 minutes of BtVS that he
spoke of having seen before embarking on this project, and having seen every
episode multiple times as many of us have. For instance, when I bought the
S1 DVDs 3 years ago as a first step that ended in me collecting the lot, I
had seen maybe 8-9 hours of BtVS and a few minutes of AtS, not including any
complete episode (although I had seen the majority of a few episodes,
including WTTH and OMWF, and had taped 2/3s of the latter). AOQ may not know
any more in total about the series than I knew from that, even if some of
the specific things he seems to know about, I didn't.
--
Apteryx
Shuggie
> Well, like I said, I'm open to alternatives. I just think as of
> finishing watching PG, I'd kinda like to see Buffy and Xander get
> together. But I have absolutely no objections to B/A, B/lonely
> forever, B/Sp... (yes, flipping through bad fanfiction in my MSTing
> days did make me aware that there's someone else I haven't met yet
> who'll be relevant). Just as long as it's done well, that is.
That's my philosophy :)
>> > Any idea what happened to Colin?
>>
>> Of course. Look, I'll make a deal with you: I'll continue the Herculean
>> effort of biting my tongue every time I see something that begs for a
>> reference to an upcoming episode and in return how about you not ask
>> direct questions the answers to which can only be spoilers. Deal?
>
> It's like a presidential debate; I'm only addressing other people
> "rhetorically" ;-).
>
I realise that. It's just hard enough to resist spoiling as it is. In a
way I'm impressed you got all the way through season 1 without getting
spoiled. In the days when this ng was really busy there were plenty of
people who didn't care about spoiling others. I'm in the UK and we were
usually months behind. It wasn't safe to come here if you wanted to stay
unspoiled.
Hopefully you won't have that problem though.
--
Shuggie
Daniel Damouth
news:gmoBf.7459$Y6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net:
>> Also, you may have noticed
>> that scenes from Prophecy Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm) at
>> the start of WttH. Prophecy Girl was very definitely
>> deliberately shot so that it could serve as a series finale if
>> necessary.
>
> That was the case with each season finale.
I doubt this. Why would they do that in the cases when they knew it
wasn't necessary?
-Dan Damouth
John Briggs
(a) In case it was necessary. (They didn't always know.)
(b) To give an artistic shape to the season end. See also (a).
(c) So that it wouldn't look out of place when it was necessary. (Whether
they knew or not.)
--
John Briggs
Daniel Damouth
> Daniel Damouth wrote:
>> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
>> news:gmoBf.7459$Y6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net:
>>
>>>> Also, you may have noticed
>>>> that scenes from Prophecy Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm)
>>>> at the start of WttH. Prophecy Girl was very definitely
>>>> deliberately shot so that it could serve as a series finale if
>>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> That was the case with each season finale.
>>
>> I doubt this. Why would they do that in the cases when they knew
>> it wasn't necessary?
> (b) To give an artistic shape to the season end.
I was afraid you were going to say something weaselly like that.
-Dan Damouth
vague disclaimer
Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> news:6exBf.11948$mf2....@newsfe6-win.ntli.net:
>
> > Daniel Damouth wrote:
> >> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> >> news:gmoBf.7459$Y6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net:
> >>
> >>>> Also, you may have noticed
> >>>> that scenes from Prophecy Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm)
> >>>> at the start of WttH. Prophecy Girl was very definitely
> >>>> deliberately shot so that it could serve as a series finale if
> >>>> necessary.
> >>>
> >>> That was the case with each season finale.
> >>
> >> I doubt this. Why would they do that in the cases when they knew
> >> it wasn't necessary?
>
> > (b) To give an artistic shape to the season end.
>
> I was afraid you were going to say something weaselly like that.
>
> -Dan Damouth
>
Joss stated on one of the commentaries that he avoided cliffhanger
endings so that if, for any reason, the show ended (eg ratings went
through the floor and it was cancelled between seasons) that any season
finale would provide a satisfactory ending to the show - that is to say,
could be a legit series finale.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Shuggie
- "I don't care. Giles, I'm sixteen years old, I don't want to die."
(yes, yet again, I cried.)
- "That's not cute, that's annoying. I'm annoyed.", "Right, I'm furious"
(V.funny line right before v.scary moment.)
- "It wasn't our world any more, they made it theirs. And they had fun."
- "The part that gets me though, is where Buffy is the vampire slayer -
she's so little!" ;)
- "You're in love with her", "aren't you?"
- Night of the Living Dead on the school football field.
- "Oh look, a bad guy!"
Oh, and FWIW I timed it - Buffy 'dies' for exactly 2 minutes 4 seconds.
Since most people could hold their breath that long without too much
trouble I don't think we need to go looking for mystical explanations.
Mike Zeares
Don Sample wrote:
> I've always liked that. It's the only time in the entire series that
> they used the theme music in an episode.
>
> (I don't think they even used it the way they did at the end, with a
> soft, piano rendition of it, in any other episode.)
The theme was very briefly stated with violins during the final scene
of "Chosen." It's included in the long version of the "Chosen" score
that's available on Robert Duncan's website.
I liked Walter Murphy's piano treatment of it at the end of PG, along
with the rest of the score. It was by far his best work of the season.
-- Mike Zeares
Apteryx
news:1138071477.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> One-sentence summary: A near-perfect way to end Season One.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Glad you liked this one. I was beginning to think that your ratings might be
close to the inverse of mine.
I use numerical ratings, 1-9, with 1 being the best. The ratings mean
specific standards in relation to movies, but for a TV series mean just an
episode about as good as a movie of that rating. I very rarely give ratings
of 1 or 2 (2 BtVS episodes are in the 1.x range, and 4 more in the 2.x
range, so I think ratings in the 3.x range probably equate roughly to your
Excellent, and ratings in the 6.x range (as low as it gets for BtVS) to your
Weak.
> [Season One ratings:
> 1) "Welcome To The Hellmouth" - Good
Apteryx Rating 3.45 (16th best of 144 BtVS episodes)
> 2) "The Harvest" - Decent
Apteryx Rating 3.87 (39th)
> 3) "Witch" - Excellent
Apteryx Rating 4.07 (53rd)
> 4) "Teacher's Pet" - Decent
Apteryx Rating 4.65 (84th)
> 5) "Never Kill A Boy On The First Date" - Decent
Apteryx Rating 4 (47th)
> 6) "The Pack" - Excellent
Apteryx Rating 4.33 (67th)
> 7) "Angel" - Good
Apteryx Rating 3.25 (13th)
> 8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak
Apteryx Rating 4.77 (94th)
> 9) "The Puppet Show" - Decent
Apteryx Rating 3.6 (18th)
> 10) "Nightmares" - Good
Apteryx Rating 3.89 (42nd)
> 11) "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight" - Decent
Apteryx Rating 5.12 (112th)
> 12) "Prophecy Girl" - Excellent]
Apteryx Rating 3.35 (15th)
>
> Average rating: 3.67 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
For me, the average rating of S1 works out to 4.02. That is the best average
rating of any BtVS season, although by a vanishingly small margin (one other
season is currently at 4.03, another at 4.08, and as the ratings change
slightly every time I watch a season, S1's place on top is far from safe).
One of the great things about BtVS is the way it appeals in different ways
to different people. That means there are no seasons (or even episodes) that
everyone loves, or that everyone hates. You just have to find out for
yourself what kind of Buffy fan you are.
--
Apteryx
MBB
news:1138110521.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> I'm not so sure about this. I think in the first scene it's something
> Willow is consciously doing. As far as Xander's concerned he's
> practicing and Willow's well aware that he's not asking her, so he's
> not 'using' her at all. If anything it's Willow that's using the
> experience to fantasize and get a little vicarious thrill.
>
I agree. Although it could have started that she was being just his
very nice best friend,mand then subcontiously started dreaming.
> When Xander asks her to the dance right after Buffy turned him down
> then he *is* using Willow.
I think he asked her out as a friend, not as a (substitude)date. After all,
they have been friends for a long time, it is likely they went to
schoolparties together as friends before. (2 singles making fun of the
couples :-P ) Plus he sees her as 'one of the guys', so not exactly a
replacement *girl* :-P
I don't think he intents to hurts her, she is his best friend.
(Likewise I don't think Willow attemped to hurt Xander when she kept
pushing Buffy to date Angel while Xander was around)
> He's treating her as a consolation prize, a
> substitute and that's not fair. Also he goes out of his way to make
> sure she knows it's not a proper date (even though we know he secretly
> knows that's what she wants).
I doubt he was aware of Willows feelings, why else whould he ahve been so
confused when Buffy brought up 'him and Willow'?
There's a difference between uncontiously knowing and secretly knowing.
I think this scene is the first time becomes actually aware of
Willows crush.
(After all, he is not very good at dating and reading signals ment for him,
otherwise he would not have been so surprised/disappointed Buffy had
*still* not noticed his advances :-P )
On the other hand, if he *did* know about her feelings, it would have been
harsh to ask *another* girl as rebound, choosing 2 girls over Willow. It
could ahve been possible that Buffy not even willing to try made him think
he should at least give Willow a chance to take him on a date.
But like I said, I don't think he knew and just wanted to be around his
friend when he was hurt.
>
> I think refusing to help Xander practice would be much more a
> statement whereas refusing to be his also-ran was perfectly
> reasonable.
>
I agree - especially if she had stated *why* she would refuse. let him know
she is in the running.
But if she'd done that, she would not have been 'Willow'. :-)
--
+0==)]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
<MBB>-
One Bit Shy
news:1138110012.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ...I did not care for all that much: the power march to
> the too loud theme...
I'm curious about this. You're the first to say anything about that moment
in this thread, which seems odd to me.
From a promotional point of view, I would think that's the money shot of the
show - perhaps of the season.
From an episode story point of view, that's the reversal. (Not the earlier
moment where she felt strong. That was still survival and not yet clear
what the effect would be.) One instantly knows then that the Master is
toast.
From a season story arc point of view, it could be considered the climax -
the moment when Buffy truly becomes the Slayer in full. Full power. Full
understanding. Full commitment.
I suspect also that Joss completed his "fixing" of the movie with that
scene.
I understand that it's highly manipulative and a kind of cliche in the way
it was constructed. But the whole season deals with movie cliches. And
it's only partly cliche. It's just as much the final statement of his girl
power theme - the cut to the power march revealing the shoes, dress and
blonde girl with real power. I get the feeling Joss had been aiming for
that moment the whole year.
I always liked it myself, but I note a seeming indifference to it here and
was wondering why. Am I missing some conventional Buffy wisdom or
something?
One Bit Shy
KenM47
I'm just expressing a personal point of view. You may be right, but
after all that preceded it, from the crisis in the library, to the AV
room, to the heartfelt with Willow, I found it unsubtle, cliche,
markedly cartoonish (not in a good way) and just out of place .
Perhaps I'm the only one.
No, I can't say what I would have done differently. Maybe a different
piece of music would have taken care of it for me. I definitely would
have had the "bad guy" dusted rather than merely knocked down.
Happily, the "march" did not take up too much time.
Ken (Brooklyn)
George W Harris
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:> Also, you may have noticed
:> that scenes from Prophecy Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm) at the
:> start of WttH. Prophecy Girl was very definitely deliberately shot
:> so that it could serve as a series finale if necessary.
:
:That was the case with each season finale.
Certainly not the case with Season 4.
:--
:John Briggs
:
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Bill Reid
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138071477.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season One, Episode 12: "Prophecy Girl"
> (or "So let it be written, so let it be undone")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Buffy's day doesn't get any better. Not only has Angel been
> avoiding her, but there's the whole impending death thing. Her
> reaction is to say "fuck it, I don't care about the world."
> Childish in the greater scheme of things, but a reasonable reaction
> from a sixteen-year-old who hasn't quite accepted that life isn't
> fair. This is one of those scenes that I imagine would be difficult
> from an actor's perspective. It calls for the ability to give an
> emotionally-charged monologue that consists mostly of yelling without
> sounding too histrionic or melodramatic, and it moves from sarcasm to
> frustration to violent anger and ends with a mix of guilt and fear
> ("I'm sixteen. I don't want to die."). In any case, Gellar
> absolutely nails the whole thing. A good one for the actor portfolio.
>
Yeah, overall Sarah Michelle Gellar does a great job as "Buffy"
throughout the series, even in the latter seasons where I didn't
like the scripts. I ain't sayin' she's the greatest actress in the
history of the moving arts, but she MADE that role her own.
It helped a little, I think, that Whedon kind of tilted the "Buffy"
character somewhat to certain personality traits of the actress herself,
such as yammering brainlessly at million words a minute, and annoying
self-centeredness.
But it is absolute heresy to suggest that just about any other actress
could have handled the role as well, particularly a real light-weight
like Kristen Bell...
> Obviously, this thread echoes "Welcome To the Hellmouth."
Yeah, and it echoes what I see as the overall theme of "Buffy".
I actually see the show as the longest-running existential drama
ever, kind of like 144 hours of "No Exit". Buffy is trapped in
the hell of high school, the hell of life, the absolute hell of
her "destiny", and she must forge an identity and purpose for
herself apart from that "destiny" to "battle" the hell of life.
I hope you don't think that it is a spoiler to reveal that the
show continues to echo this same theme right until the last episode.
But I will reveal that the myriad plot twists and turns as she makes
choices, some good, some bad, to create her unique identity in life
become much more sophisticated, metaphorical, and multi-layered as
the show continues.
> Back
> then it seemed like a token reluctant-hero routine that served mainly
> to let the show announce to the audience that it was all hip and
> self-aware and stuff. Twelve episodes later, we have a much better
> sense of where Buffy's coming from. The symmetry continues in that
> Willow is the one who ultimately draws Buffy back into Slayership. In
> the end, she's a hero who'll do what has to be done.
>
And per above, this is just the most simple and obvious plot illustrating
her choices to deal with her "destiny". It really is just kiddie-stuff
compared to what's coming...
> The other development worth mentioning in the early parts of the
> episode is that the show seems to be ready to shake up the core
> four-heroes dynamic by letting Calendar and Cordelia hang out with the
> clique. The former is still entertaining enough, although I can't
> say I really care about her all that much either way; if the writers
> decide that Giles should have someone his own age to banter with, who
> am I to argue?
> A policy of
> mutual tolerance makes sense from both sides; Cordelia gets someone to
> do her nerdy work and indirect access Buffy when needed, and Willow
> gets to pretend to have more than two friends. (Cordelia still sucks,
> though. I'm not backing down on that one so easily.)
>
Yeah, but does she sw...oh, forget it.
Look, let's face facts. It's a TV show. Both Calendar and Cordelia
are undeniably attractive women from two different age brackets. On TV,
you put a bunch of good-looking people in front of the camera so ugly
people at home will watch the show. The Cordelia character is pretty
much a 2-D stereotype, but in later episodes does get some really
funny stereotypical selfish air-head dialog...and she looks great.
Calendar gets to provoke Giles...and she looks great. It ain't all
Sartre...
> I didn't really
> expect that the prophecy's "lead her into Hell" would turn out to
> be so literal.
Note that the prophecy ("she will not know him, and he will lead her
into hell") was not actually fulfilled because she DID know him ("I know
who you are"). But they forecast that "prophecies are tricky things"...
> Just saying. Also, I'm afraid I don't really
> buy "clinically dead" as an acceptable prophecy loophole.
>
See above. The prophecy was already like Swiss cheese at that point.
> As I was watching the final
> confrontation, I wondered whether it would seem dumb to a new viewer
> who'd just flipped over to the show
How about just seeing the show title in "TV Guide"?
Again, I don't want to spoil you, but the rest of the series is full
of stuff that would seriously astound many people with its dumbness.
You haven't seen the last of the really cheesy monsters.
However, you will start seeing an improvement in the musical score,
all the way up to Emmy award-winning caliber. Eventually, the photography
will improve, after first getting improbably even worse. The editing
will get better, along with the sound effects. After a while, you
might notice that the show is better in just about all aspects than
any movie playing in the theaters at the time it aired.
> And of course it leads to the show's
> big running joke (well, two, if you count the unspoken one that the
> dress somehow stays spotless), which is quite fun. The final iteration
> of the gag which closes the episode gives us one last smile, and going
> out with a wry joke seems like an appropriate note on which to conclude
> Buffy: The Miniseries.
>
"Hey, Joss, I like your joke."
"Me too, that's why I used it ten times."
>
> One-sentence summary: A near-perfect way to end Season One.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
> [Season One ratings:
> 1) "Welcome To The Hellmouth" - Good
> 2) "The Harvest" - Decent
> 3) "Witch" - Excellent
> 4) "Teacher's Pet" - Decent
> 5) "Never Kill A Boy On The First Date" - Decent
> 6) "The Pack" - Excellent
> 7) "Angel" - Good
> 8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak
> 9) "The Puppet Show" - Decent
> 10) "Nightmares" - Good
> 11) "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight" - Decent
> 12) "Prophecy Girl" - Excellent]
>
>
> BY THE NUMBERS
>
> _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ Season One
>
> ABOMINATION - 0
> Bad - 0
> Weak - 1
> Decent - 5
> Good - 3
> Excellent - 3
> SUPERLATIVE - 0
>
Yeah, like everybody else here, I think you're gonna need a bigger scale.
If you thought this episode was "Excellent" for the reaons you stated,
you're
going to overflow that "SUPERLATIVE" buffer in short order...
---
William Ernest Reid
John Briggs
>
> Look, let's face facts. It's a TV show. Both Calendar and Cordelia
> are undeniably attractive women from two different age brackets.
Funny you should say that, as Robia LaMorte and Charisma Carpenter are
almost exactly the same age.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:39:56 GMT, "John Briggs"
> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>> Also, you may have noticed
>>> that scenes from Prophecy Girl were in Buffy's Slayerdream(tm) at
>>> the start of WttH. Prophecy Girl was very definitely deliberately
>>> shot so that it could serve as a series finale if necessary.
>>
>> That was the case with each season finale.
>
> Certainly not the case with Season 4.
Opinions differ.
--
John Briggs
George W Harris
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Well, people can hold all sorts of opinions, but,
while Season 4 didn't end just as Buffy is thrown out of
a plane, it also introduced all manner of unresolved
issues that certainly would have left the series bereft of
closure. It was far from the neat tie-ups we saw at the
ends of Seasons 1, 3, 5, 6, and 7.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
Daniel Damouth
news:l64o-1rj5-2D894...@mercury.nildram.net:
> Joss stated on one of the commentaries that he avoided cliffhanger
> endings so that if, for any reason, the show ended (eg ratings
> went through the floor and it was cancelled between seasons) that
> any season finale would provide a satisfactory ending to the show
> - that is to say, could be a legit series finale.
Makes perfect sense if there was indeed reasonable uncertainty every
time. OTOH, Joss has been known to lie to the fans.
-Dan Damouth
Matthias Wolf
>It doesn't start that way. In fact, things open pretty generically;
>Xander likes Buffy, the Master likes talking, Buffy tolerates killing
>vampires, and Giles has an affinity for ominous prophecies.
Actually, it is far from generic. Even considering the very high
standard set during S1 of BtVS, this is one of the best and tightly
constructed teasers I ever have seen. Think of it as an extreme
version of the Chekhov's Gun Technique.
The teaser opens with Xander, who will become as important in saving
the day as Buffy herself. But besides featuring him prominently, there
is no hint at that yet. Instead we get the normal teenage stuff of
muddled desires and relationships, albeit in a funny way (if you
aren't Willow). Choosing this scene as the opening also tells us that
the character's coming to terms with each other will matter as much as
the pending apocalypse.
On "the usual" cue, we cut to Buffy, falling down hard during a fight.
But at the end, she gets up and dusts her opponent. No, it's not yet
The Master, just a great way of foreshadowing it.
Intercut with Buffy's fight, we have Cordelia, her soon to be dead
boyfriend and, of course, her car.
Buffy's "Giles would be so proud" not only cues the cut to the
library, it also hints that for her being the slayer is still very
much defined by Giles' (traditional) viewpoint. She has yet to find
one by herself.
The aforementioned cut first shows us the roof of the library and the
skylight before a few dissolves bring us to Giles studying an
important prophecy, which shakes him up to his bones.
Actually, it's just an earthquake. And now we get the more typical
stuff that passes as teaser on most other TV shows. The earthquake
connects all the locations we visited before, some havoc is caused,
yadda, yadda.
Finally, from a crack in the library's floor (and not from the Bronze)
we go to The Master's lair, where the villain of the piece declares
his upcoming triumph.
See, it's all there ;-)
--
Matthias Wolf
kenm47
--
Matthias Wolf"
Nice analysis. Thanks.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Steve Schaffner
> >> ...I did not care for all that much: the power march to
> >> the too loud theme...
>
> I'm just expressing a personal point of view. You may be right, but
> after all that preceded it, from the crisis in the library, to the AV
> room, to the heartfelt with Willow, I found it unsubtle, cliche,
> markedly cartoonish (not in a good way) and just out of place .
> Perhaps I'm the only one.
No, you're not the only one. That sequence (especially "Oh look, a bad
guy") grates on me. A few minutes before I felt that I was watching a
girl confronting her own death, but at this point I'm suddenly aware
that I'm watching a TV show.
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
kenm47
Ken (Brooklyn)
Bill Reid
John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:PsIBf.18802$0N1....@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
almost a 20-year age difference.
But, again, let's face facts. It's a TV show, where you cast
30-year-olds as "teenagers".
I'm not sure of the actual age difference between the two
actresses, but I'd venture about seven years, actually based
mostly on LaMorte being a "Prince girl", and some of those
must be grandmothers by now. How'd I do?
---
William Ernest Reid
vague disclaimer
Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in
> news:l64o-1rj5-2D894...@mercury.nildram.net:
>
> > Joss stated on one of the commentaries that he avoided cliffhanger
> > endings so that if, for any reason, the show ended (eg ratings
> > went through the floor and it was cancelled between seasons) that
> > any season finale would provide a satisfactory ending to the show
> > - that is to say, could be a legit series finale.
>
> Makes perfect sense if there was indeed reasonable uncertainty every
> time.
I think there always is....
Matthias Wolf
No, I think you are mostly spot-on, except for one thing. It is not
about Buffy becoming the Slayer, it is about Buffy making the Slayer a
part of herself. The Slayer goes down to the Master and dies. A young
woman in full control of her own destiny emerges.
In an S7 episode, there is a small piece of dialogue that I always
thought is the shortest and smartest description of "Prophecy Girl".
The clever little exchange fits far better here and seems somewhat
wasted in S7. I think I can repeat it without spoiling anything for
AoQ. A girl, in search for the Slayer, arrives at the Sunnydale bus
station, gets in some trouble and gets rescued by Buffy.
Girl to Buffy: You are her!
Buffy: Her is me.
--
Matthias Wolf
kenm47
actresses, but I'd venture about seven years, actually based
mostly on LaMorte being a "Prince girl", and some of those
must be grandmothers by now. How'd I do? "
Per IMDb
Charisma Carpenter born 7/23/70
Robia LaMorte born 7/7/70
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
> Oh, and FWIW I timed it - Buffy 'dies' for exactly 2 minutes 4 seconds.
> Since most people could hold their breath that long without too much
> trouble I don't think we need to go looking for mystical explanations.
There is more to it than holding the breath, her heart has stopped. When
you hold your breath, your heart is pumping, so you use up the oxygen in
your lungs and also really all of whats in the blood.
But you don't get brain damage in two minutes and four seconds, it is
five to seven minutes.
(Where do I have that from - just the way she says it: _Five_ to
_seven_ minutes. It's a horror movie, was that the night of the living
dead?)
The reason for looking for mystical explanations are of course the
uselessness of Xander as a doctor. But thats OK with me.
And the "I feel different" makes someone wonder. What _did_ it mean?
I always thought the monster coming out looks a bit silly, though. And
the Master changes orientation when he lands.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Espen Schjønberg
> Note that the prophecy ("she will not know him, and he will lead her
> into hell") was not actually fulfilled because she DID know him ("I know
> who you are"). But they forecast that "prophecies are tricky things"...
OK, someone here hasn't heard of episode five.
BTW, I love the way SMG drops the Emily Dickinson on Willow in that episode.
--
Espen
kenm47
If you mean she did not know him then (NKABOTFD), well O.K., but he
wasn't leading her into hell then either. The prophecy makes it sound
like the two parts go hand-in-hand so to speak, that Buffy would be
tricked into following TAO because she did not know him.
I think it was intentional and significant that Buffy did KNOW The
Anointed One and gave him her hand so he could lead her into The
Master's hell. She faces her fate voluntarily.
Ken (Brooklyn)
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
In NKABTFD she didn't know the Annointed One and then went after the
wrong vamp.
Steve Schaffner
> Espen Schj=F8nberg wrote:
> > On 25.01.2006 09:25, Bill Reid wrote:
> >
> > > Note that the prophecy ("she will not know him, and he will lead her
> > > into hell") was not actually fulfilled because she DID know him ("I know
> > > who you are"). But they forecast that "prophecies are tricky things"...
> >
> > OK, someone here hasn't heard of episode five.
> >
> > BTW, I love the way SMG drops the Emily Dickinson on Willow in that episo=
> de.
> >
> > --
> > Espen
>
> If you mean she did not know him then (NKABOTFD), well O.K., but he
> wasn't leading her into hell then either. The prophecy makes it sound
> like the two parts go hand-in-hand so to speak, that Buffy would be
> tricked into following TAO because she did not know him.
That's the kind of trickiness prophecies are supposed to have. You
know, the "if you invade, you will destroy a great kingdom [and it
will be your own]" kind of thing.
> I think it was intentional and significant that Buffy did KNOW The
> Anointed One and gave him her hand so he could lead her into The
> Master's hell. She faces her fate voluntarily.
Sure.
Michael Ikeda
There wasn't really, at least after the first season. In Seasons 2-6
it was always fairly definite that there would be another season by
the time they actually had to start writing the concluding episodes.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Clairel
Daniel Damouth wrote:
> "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1138078439.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> For the record, CPR doesn't tend to work very well unless you
> >> open an airway (by tilting the patient's head) first. Also,
> >> unless you have one of those electric shocky things (and
> >> sometimes even then), CPR doesn't too often revive people so much
> >> as just keep them alive until real help arrives. Just saying.
> >
> > My crap-garbage theory has always been that Xander didn't save
> > her. She was dead, and Something Else sent her back. This is
> > based mostly on the slight focus shift that occurs just as Buffy
> > opens her eyes.
>
> I always notice the little magical sound effect. And then she
> miraculously feels stronger, and can resist the Master's hypno. I
> think the "miracle" interpretation is supportable.
--Yes, because unless something supernatural occurred there's no reason
why having some blood drained out of her and being deprived of oxygen
would make Buffy stronger, and more resistant to The Master.
Clairel
Clairel
Mike Zeares wrote:
> William George Ferguson wrote:
> > On 23 Jan 2006 18:57:57 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > >threads.
> >
> > 'Wait until you see Prophecy Girl'.
>
> I nearly had to knock myself unconscious.
>
> > Prophecy Girl
> > was very definitely deliberately shot so that it could serve as a series
> > finale if necessary.
>
> after S1. The last episode aired was the two-hour pilot "Welcome to
> the Hellmouth."
--World without sunshine! No! No!
I think I'd prefer to live in the World Of Nothing But Shrimp.
Clairel
John Briggs
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in
> news:l64o-1rj5-AD121...@mercury.nildram.net:
>
>> In article <Xns97562CAAAEB4...@66.75.164.119>,
>> Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in
>>> news:l64o-1rj5-2D894...@mercury.nildram.net:
>>>
>>>> Joss stated on one of the commentaries that he avoided
>>>> cliffhanger endings so that if, for any reason, the show
>>>> ended (eg ratings went through the floor and it was cancelled
>>>> between seasons) that any season finale would provide a
>>>> satisfactory ending to the show - that is to say, could be a
>>>> legit series finale.
>>>
>>> Makes perfect sense if there was indeed reasonable uncertainty
>>> every time.
>>
>> I think there always is....
>
> There wasn't really, at least after the first season. In Seasons 2-6
> it was always fairly definite that there would be another season by
> the time they actually had to start writing the concluding episodes.
You are absolutely wrong on that. By the time the final episodes were
broadcast: yes, by the time the final episodes were shot: maybe, by the time
the final episodes were written: usually not. For example (even if this is
an extreme example), in S5 the final scripts for the last four episodes were
all written and delivered in March 2001. The final episode was shot at the
beginning of April. At that time Fox were negotiating with at least two
different networks. So not only did ME not know whether there was going to
be another season, they didn't know which network it would be on!
--
John Briggs
Michael Ikeda
With two different networks bidding on the show it was a near
certainty that one of them would sign an agreement with Fox.
Especially since one of the networks had an especially good reason
to keep Fox happy, since it was simultaneously negotiating over
whether the Fox-owned UPN stations would stay with UPN (without the
Fox-owned UPN stations, UPN essentially would have ceased to exist
as a national network).
And (aside from Season 1) Season 5 was the close as it came to
being any uncertainty at all. In seasons 2-4 and 6 it was
essentially certain by mid-season that there would be a next
season.
Bill Reid
Hmmmmm...well, first, IMDB, you know, second, somebody
may be lying about their age here...shocking I know for a Hollywood
actress, but it might happen...
Any idea at what time and at what age LaMorte was a
"Prince girl"? Cuz I'm always quite bemused when I see the
age listed for some adult actor/actress that I used to watch when
I was eight years old, and somehow they're magically 10 years
younger than I am...
I absolutely love the guy, but probably the worst offender is
Steve Martin, who said with a straight face on a talk show that
he "just turned 50" (maybe it was a joke that fell flat), but he
was on the "Smothers Brothers" show in 1968 with noticeable
gray hair and apparently in his mid-thirties...
---
William Ernest Reid
Bill Reid
Steve Schaffner <s...@phosphorus.broad.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:ydlu0bs...@phosphorus.broad.mit.edu...
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> > Espen Schj=F8nberg wrote:
> > > On 25.01.2006 09:25, Bill Reid wrote:
> > >
> > > > Note that the prophecy ("she will not know him, and he will lead her
> > > > into hell") was not actually fulfilled because she DID know him ("I
know
> > > > who you are"). But they forecast that "prophecies are tricky
things"...
> > >
> > > OK, someone here hasn't heard of episode five.
> > >
> > wasn't leading her into hell then either. The prophecy makes it sound
> > like the two parts go hand-in-hand so to speak, that Buffy would be
> > tricked into following TAO because she did not know him.
>
> That's the kind of trickiness prophecies are supposed to have. You
> know, the "if you invade, you will destroy a great kingdom [and it
> will be your own]" kind of thing.
>
Apparently, prophecies are like legal documents, open to many
possible interpretations by different advocates, full of fine print and
conflicting clauses. But who, I ask you, who decides the actual
interpretation? <Brief pause while minds are blown>
> > I think it was intentional and significant that Buffy did KNOW The
> > Anointed One and gave him her hand so he could lead her into The
> > Master's hell. She faces her fate voluntarily.
>
> Sure.
>
One of many times that she chooses to be "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"
in the face of sure death...but death paradoxically that may release her
from the hell of life (getting a little ahead here). Except of course, just
when you think you're out, "they" keep dragging you right back in
(again, I encourage a passing knowledge of existentialism and
"No Exit" to fully appreciate what goes on in the show)...
---
William Ernest Reid
John Briggs
It was certain at the beinning of S6 - that was because it was a two-season
deal :-)
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> kenm47 <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:1138204611....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> "I'm not sure of the actual age difference between the two
>> actresses, but I'd venture about seven years, actually based
>> mostly on LaMorte being a "Prince girl", and some of those
>> must be grandmothers by now. How'd I do? "
>>
>> Per IMDb
>>
>> Charisma Carpenter born 7/23/70
>> Robia LaMorte born 7/7/70
>>
> Hmmmmm...well, first, IMDB, you know, second, somebody
> may be lying about their age here...shocking I know for a Hollywood
> actress, but it might happen...
>
> Any idea at what time and at what age LaMorte was a
> "Prince girl"?
1991, age 21? Does that sound plausible? ("Diamonds and Pearls")
--
John Briggs
vague disclaimer
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in
> news:l64o-1rj5-AD121...@mercury.nildram.net:
>
> > In article <Xns97562CAAAEB4...@66.75.164.119>,
> > Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in
> >> news:l64o-1rj5-2D894...@mercury.nildram.net:
> >>
> >> > Joss stated on one of the commentaries that he avoided
> >> > cliffhanger endings so that if, for any reason, the show
> >> > ended (eg ratings went through the floor and it was cancelled
> >> > between seasons) that any season finale would provide a
> >> > satisfactory ending to the show - that is to say, could be a
> >> > legit series finale.
> >>
> >> Makes perfect sense if there was indeed reasonable uncertainty
> >> every time.
> >
> > I think there always is....
>
> There wasn't really, at least after the first season. In Seasons 2-6
> it was always fairly definite that there would be another season by
> the time they actually had to start writing the concluding episodes.
There is always a risk that the number crunchers will decide that it is
cheaper to pay any contract penalty clauses than continue to make a show.
KenM47
Aside from Steve Martin having gone prematurely gray,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robia_LaMorte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma_Carpenter
Oh, and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Martin
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
"Matthias Wolf" <maw...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:ta7ft1tsscjj7bstc...@4ax.com...
I think we're aiming at more or less the same spot. It was difficult for me
to term it right - obviously she already was the Slayer. Perhaps I should
have said it was when she became complete.
Anyway I'm glad at least someone noted much the same. I don't want to make
too much of the scene - there's so much more in that episode. But it was
such an obviously emphasized moment that it seemed odd to ignore it.
> In an S7 episode, there is a small piece of dialogue that I always
> thought is the shortest and smartest description of "Prophecy Girl".
> The clever little exchange fits far better here and seems somewhat
> wasted in S7. I think I can repeat it without spoiling anything for
> AoQ. A girl, in search for the Slayer, arrives at the Sunnydale bus
> station, gets in some trouble and gets rescued by Buffy.
>
> Girl to Buffy: You are her!
> Buffy: Her is me.
I confess that kind of connection never occurred to me. Next time I see
that episode I'll try to remember the thought.
Cheers,
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:8qudt1hhfs9iuhgi2...@4ax.com...
>>
>
>
> I'm just expressing a personal point of view.
Oh, I know. Just curious what was behind it and how typical it was.
> You may be right, but
> after all that preceded it, from the crisis in the library, to the AV
> room, to the heartfelt with Willow, I found it unsubtle, cliche,
> markedly cartoonish (not in a good way) and just out of place .
> Perhaps I'm the only one.
Evidently not the only one. I would agree that it's unsubtle, cliche and
cartoonish. Our difference in perception appears to be that it didn't seem
out of place to me - not for that moment. What you described before it was
the spiral downward (complete with Patsy Cline) ultimately to her death.
This was the triumphal in the nick of time return. The girl's got her mojo
back.
> No, I can't say what I would have done differently. Maybe a different
> piece of music would have taken care of it for me. I definitely would
> have had the "bad guy" dusted rather than merely knocked down.
That I agree with. It was clumsy.
> Happily, the "march" did not take up too much time.
Nor should it.
OBS
Mike Zeares
> > Buffy: Her is me.
>
> I confess that kind of connection never occurred to me. Next time I see
> that episode I'll try to remember the thought.
Isn't it neat that here we are years later and we're still finding new
things?
-- Mike Zeares
Tom Breton
Not as far as I know, but for me the "manipulative and cliched" aspect
weighed just a little more heavily than the "climax" "Full power"
aspect.
--
Tom Breton, the calm-eyed visionary
John Briggs
Although that is more likely if (as in the case of "Firefly") you are paying
a different part of the same company :-)
--
John Briggs