AOQ Review 7-22: "Chosen"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
(or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
Writers: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
Well, first of all Buffy gets to kill Caleb again... I don't see what
was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
the series's rapidly dwindling time. I suppose it's traditional
for woman-hating villains to take it in the crotch at some point. EVS.
This leads to Buffy and Angel having a last graveyard chat. It's a
callback to the show's early days, but I admit I was hoping to see
the two of them stand side by side against evil again; this seems more
like a token appearance. One thing that's definitely changed since
S1 is Boreanaz's comic timing; I smile just thinking about the
delivery on the "everyone has a soul now" ramble. Spike is a bit
of a point of contention, with Buffy sort of saying out loud that he
means a lot to her, but the conversation is more about Buffy. This
part doesn't rock my world, although it has that vague regret and
twinge of enduring hope for them to somehow work it out that I've
enjoyed in all the ATS-era B/A scenes. I would like to note that the
cookie speech suggests that she definitely intends to (and seems
confident in her ability to) survive to bake another day. After all
the failed attempts to have a normal life, two early deaths, most of a
season of not really wanting to live, we end up with dessert analogies.
As one may have concluded based on my review of "End Of Days," I
was expecting that the First would try to find a way to play Spike
against Buffy. Instead it mostly stands around mouthing vague
discouragements. Or maybe it thought it'd done its job, and badly
misjudged him. All in all, this episode cements how the First never
really emerged as much of a villain for me - then again, this isn't
a show about the villains, and this one blends into the background
perhaps more easily than any other in the series. I'm with those
like Mike who don't feel the need to care much one way or the other
about Big Bad, other than as something to hang character moments from.
Speaking of which, there's a nice little scene between our hero and
her undead lover; it speaks for itself, but it's nice.
Champion!Spike's redemption arc seems very earned for me, and
remember that I was initially skeptical. Then it's on to the big
fight, and a few last quiet scenes to lead up to it. I get a kick out
of Buffy shrugging off Dawn defying her wishes; this is just how it is.
The D&D game, with Andrew running things, is kinda stupid but in a
totally in-character way, and I laughed. And if I cared at all about
any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one. Anyway, there's a
conscious sense of touching base with the show's history that works
whether one is a Scoobie facing death or a viewer facing the final
episode. It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
banter together before themselves moving off one at a time. Going for
another "the Earth is definitely doomed" riff may have been pushing
it, though. Also note that Buffy's in her element, applying a
villain's words in a way it hadn't intended and again coming up
with a solution that's outside the system. I like the visual of the
Buffy-on-Buffy action... just using their mouths, I mean... um... you
know what I'm talking about.
"Buffy, what you said, it - it flies in the face of everything
we've ever - every generation has ever done in the fight against
evil. I think it's bloody brilliant." A big part of Giles's
character in one line.
The visuals are strong and evocative. The mass of hell minions as
Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
destruction consuming Sunnydale. Knocking the sign into the pit adds
that little extra personal touch, as the series has been so good at.
Willow going all blonde and white-goddess-like just strikes me as sorta
cheesy, the whole visual and everything. I feel like it "should"
bother me more, as an end to the Dark Willow fallout, but I think I'm
not too upset because one doesn't have to view it as a
"solution." The magic is something she'll always live with,
right? Redemption and recovery can happen one day at a time, for the
rest of her life, not through some big epiphany. Anyway, the followup
"that was nifty" reminds me of why she's such a great character.
Also love the little sheepish look playing off Buffy's "this woman
is more powerful..." bit.
I used the phrase "symbolically right" above, and it describes my
general feelings about "Chosen." For the most part, it feels right
for the characters to end their journey here. In that respect it's
reminiscent of Season Seven as a whole, which has been fulfilling as
far as themes go. Just having known these people for so long allows
for a sense of incredibly rich character history that's come through
in this and other episodes (such as this year's masterpiece,
"Selfless"). But also like Season Seven, there are a few places
where "Chosen" feels shoddy on a more literal narrative sense as
the story falls apart some. That's also why, despite the
number-crunching below, I'd say I like S6 better than S7 (the two are
probably my favorite years of the show that aren't my beloved Season
Three. S2 is up there too, though), even though S7 scores a little
higher based purely on the rough individual-episode rankings. Both are
more than the sum of their parts, but S7 is somewhat less more; the
hiccups in the narrative don't bother me as deeply as they do some
people, but they're harder to entirely brush past.
"Chosen" also reminds me of the last Joss-penned season finale,
"The Gift," in that we have an episode that plays right on many
levels but certain bits don't hold up to scrutiny. Sadly, it gets
more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
distracting for me:
1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
for them.
2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
that this might not be the best kind of monster to create? You've
now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
to propose that this power lends itself to be used only for good, but
there's a one-word rebuttal: Faith.
Speaking of whom... you know how towards the end of a story, the author
sometimes feels the need to start pairing characters off left and
right? That's basically what I get from the stuff with Faith and
Robin Wood, but I feel like the personalities and the actors gel well
enough to make it forgivable. There's enough background and
right-place right-time to justify the initial hookup, and they're
still driven by curiosity. I don't feel like whether or not the
right combination of charm and sexual assertiveness can help Faith work
through her issues with men was a primary concern, given everything
else going on, but I don't mind watching it. I totally called the
fake-out during his "death" scene; the show knows he's one of the
ones who could conceivably die, so just goes all-out with the false
death.
Trachtenberg may have played a role in picking Dawn's clothes all
year, but this seems to be like what the character has always wanted to
wear. How did it go over with the dirty old man contingent?
Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke, gets killed while helping
keep Andrew alive, as a natural extension of (and as
backwards-foreshadowed by) their talk last episode. Sorry to see you
go. I very much like the last Xander/Andrew moment at the end. As for
the other big central character's death, Spike goes out in style, as
seems fitting. Both the effects and his last words make for something
that's sad, but not depressing because it's a triumph, the peak of
his hero's journey. Vg nyfb pnhtug zr ol fhecevfr, tvira gung V
gubhtug ur fgvyy unq n ovt cneg gb cynl bire ba Qrnq Obl'f fubj.
Znlor ur'yy Funafuh?
So the show ends looking over the ruins of Sunnydale and its Hellmouth.
Xander's wisecracking, Willow's enjoying the enormity of it, Giles
is spoiling the mood. And then instead of giving Buffy the last word,
the show poses a question for her that stays unanswered as she smiles
and we fade to black. It's one of those ideas I've always liked
- the moment that the story ends is the moment that the hero begins
living her own life, no longer a slave to destiny or to the needs of
the world... or the viewer. Whether she keeps killing stuff or tries
something else is up to her alone, not to us or the writers. Unless
Joss later decides to resurrect her show as a comic book, that is.
That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
So...
One-sentence summary: I am content.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Seven ratings:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good
12) "Potential" - Good
13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
14) "First Date" - Decent
15) "Get It Done" - Decent
16) "Storyteller" - Good
17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
18) "Dirty Girls" - Good
19) "Empty Places" - Good
20) "Touched" - Excellent
21) "End Of Days" - Good
22) "Chosen" - Good]
BY THE NUMBERS
[Note: "Bargaining" is counted twice]
_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ Season Seven
Bad - 1
Weak - 1
Decent - 6
Good - 11
Excellent - 2
SUPERLATIVE - 1
Average rating: 3.68 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 64%
_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_, complete series
ABOMINATION - 0
Bad - 3
Weak - 11
Decent - 45
Good - 62
Excellent - 22
SUPERLATIVE - 1
Ratings by season:
S1: Mean = 3.67, 50% quality
S2: Mean = 3.55, 64% quality
S3: Mean= 3.86, 68% quality
S4: Mean= 3.5, 55% quality
S5: Mean = 3.55, 50% quality
S6: Mean = 3.68, 62% quality
S7: Mean= 3.68, 64% quality
Complete series: Mean = 3.64, 59% quality
(Harmony) Watcher
>news:1161400373....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
>(or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
>Writers: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
Hurray, no more BtVS spoilers. :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
> the series's rapidly dwindling time. I suppose it's traditional
two scenes i repeat are parker getting hit with a branch
and caleb splitting from the show
nobody gets to be mean to our miss buffy
> S1 is Boreanaz's comic timing; I smile just thinking about the
> delivery on the "everyone has a soul now" ramble. Spike is a bit
in case you didnt notice in the basement spike did a drawing of angels face
and stuck it to the punching bag
> misjudged him. All in all, this episode cements how the First never
> really emerged as much of a villain for me - then again, this isn't
> a show about the villains, and this one blends into the background
> perhaps more easily than any other in the series. I'm with those
> like Mike who don't feel the need to care much one way or the other
> about Big Bad, other than as something to hang character moments from.
youve been asking how do you defeat an enemy which has no body
this echoes angels trip to the head office
people have souls and souls dont mean youre good
they mean you get to choose to be good (or evil)
and as long as there is a free choice some souls will choose evil
the way you defeat first evil is you choose not to be evil
when buffy tells fe to get out of her face
besides the visual pun its buffy facing the evil within her
and choosing not to submit to it
thats when she defeats first evil
so yeah in the end first evil is indeed nothing more
than a testing of the characters to hang their moments from
> The D&D game, with Andrew running things, is kinda stupid but in a
> totally in-character way, and I laughed. And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one. Anyway, there's a
alas amanda we did not know you well
she was put in the scene so you would remember her when she died
poor giles what a career highlight for him
> Willow going all blonde and white-goddess-like just strikes me as sorta
> cheesy, the whole visual and everything. I feel like it "should"
> bother me more, as an end to the Dark Willow fallout, but I think I'm
okay
so youve been complaining because willow hasnt done much
and now that shes doing much you dont like that either?
> putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> for them.
the house scenes are packed with potentials but at the school just a fraction
are the rest waiting at the house till it fell in the sink hole?
i think instead it was budget problems
ideally all the potentials would be shown present at the school
but getting them to csu northridge location would be more expensive
and rigging them to do stunts in the fight would be more expensive
so all those extra slayers are implied at cavern in my version
fifty to hundred slayers at one place are a force to be reckoned with
> 3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
> Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> that this might not be the best kind of monster to create? You've
> now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
its widely thought that giles is going to rebuild the watchers
and they will continuing their traditions - sort of
but now the slayers do not have to put up with crap
and the slayers and watchers will operate on a more equal footing
also if the slayers can choose to band together
and as long as they are mostly good people
they can attend to problem makers among their own ranks
of course slayers could instead decide to take over the world
lets hope they are better than that
> controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
> umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
> a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
you have to worry about the guy who was hitting the trailer woman
> Speaking of whom... you know how towards the end of a story, the author
> sometimes feels the need to start pairing characters off left and
> right? That's basically what I get from the stuff with Faith and
> Robin Wood, but I feel like the personalities and the actors gel well
fiath is still clearly damaged
i dont think robin luuuuuvvvs her but he does seem to want to help her
i didnt see them as pairing off surrounded by fat grandchildren
but maybe faith forming a stable relation with someone someday
> Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
> worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
whedon commented that it was a war and in war theres has to be a cost
but that he decided for the fans sake that core four would survive
(also caufield might have been happy to walk away from the character)
also he commented that willow and kennedy are indeed paired off
because he wants at least one happy couple at the end of the series
> it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke, gets killed while helping
> keep Andrew alive, as a natural extension of (and as
she wasnt keeping andrew alive
what andrew told xander was a lie to comfort xander
andrew had survived by good luck and anya had died by bad luck
there was no meaning implied in her death
brutal and pointless like so many deaths in war
> backwards-foreshadowed by) their talk last episode. Sorry to see you
> go. I very much like the last Xander/Andrew moment at the end. As for
> the other big central character's death, Spike goes out in style, as
> seems fitting. Both the effects and his last words make for something
> that's sad, but not depressing because it's a triumph, the peak of
note that cassies prediction that buffy would tell him came true
anyway so how many times do you have to kill spike before he stays dead?
ballpark fgiure?
> and we fade to black. It's one of those ideas I've always liked
> - the moment that the story ends is the moment that the hero begins
> living her own life, no longer a slave to destiny or to the needs of
> the world... or the viewer. Whether she keeps killing stuff or tries
> something else is up to her alone, not to us or the writers. Unless
> Joss later decides to resurrect her show as a comic book, that is.
the series ends in a nice way
that it comes to a definite conclusion
(the hellmouth is closed and fe is squashed)
but it also continues because there are still slayers and there still evil
and there are still hellmouths in cleveland baghdad pyong yang washington dc etc
> That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
now rewatch welcome to the hellmouth
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
Wes <3254176>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
>(or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
>Writers: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
>
>
>As one may have concluded based on my review of "End Of Days," I
>was expecting that the First would try to find a way to play Spike
>against Buffy. Instead it mostly stands around mouthing vague
>discouragements. Or maybe it thought it'd done its job, and badly
>misjudged him. All in all, this episode cements how the First never
>really emerged as much of a villain for me - then again, this isn't
>a show about the villains, and this one blends into the background
>perhaps more easily than any other in the series. I'm with those
>like Mike who don't feel the need to care much one way or the other
>about Big Bad, other than as something to hang character moments from.
>
>"Buffy, what you said, it - it flies in the face of everything
>we've ever - every generation has ever done in the fight against
>evil. I think it's bloody brilliant." A big part of Giles's
>character in one line.
>
'Graduation Day II' writ large.
The First was scrunch once 'everyone' chose to do their part against
evil. The opposite of what had been established by the Shadowmen and
maintained by the CoW to fight the servants of evil.
>
>1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
>Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
>find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
>Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
>dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
>putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
>plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
>one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
>previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
>for them.
>
Joss has made his point and wants a flashy finish. My *big* problem
with S7 is that 'the story' and 'the point of the story' don't always
mesh very good.
Not to diminish the death of Spike. He chose to do his part because it
was the right thing to do. I only wish it hadn't involved yet another
magic artifact introduced at just the right time.
>2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
>übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
>of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
>was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
>we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
>not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
>Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
>maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
>actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
>
I've never been one who thought this was a big problem. OK, Andrew
even fighting them off in Chosen is OTT, but those earlier episodes
were about Buffy, not the Ubie.
In BOTN it takes 30 seconds for Buffy to initially stake it. In EoD
she gets 3 of them in about 20 seconds. Regardless of what Giles says
about them the turok-han don't seem to be any worse than 'normal'
vampires, there's just a lot of them.
Fanwank: The last time they walked the earth the humans ran from them
in fear so they weren't expecting 20-30 superheroes waiting at the
door. Additionally, the hellmouth probably wasn't supposed to open
until the superheroes were all dead so the rank-and-file ubies didn't
even need to know that such humans existed.
>3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
>Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
>thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
>that this might not be the best kind of monster to create? You've
>now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
>controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
>umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
>a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
>to propose that this power lends itself to be used only for good, but
>there's a one-word rebuttal: Faith.
>
There are lots of people with you on this one. IMO it fits into 'the
point of the story' better than into 'the story'. Textually, it would
have been better to drop Willow's lines on the subject and leave out
the scenes of the 'unknown potentials'.
>That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
>
>
Like I had anything else to do.
Wes
Apteryx
news:1161400373....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
(or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
Writers: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
>confident in her ability to) survive to bake another day. After all
>the failed attempts to have a normal life, two early deaths, most of a
>season of not really wanting to live, we end up with dessert analogies.
Half baked I thought. As was the 2nd last minute secret weapon
episode. It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
banter together before themselves moving off one at a time. Going for
another "the Earth is definitely doomed" riff may have been pushing
it, though.
Yes, and yes. The camera zooming in on the core four left alone was
great though.
>Also note that Buffy's in her element, applying a
>villain's words in a way it hadn't intended and again coming up
>with a solution that's outside the system. I like the visual of the
>Buffy-on-Buffy action... just using their mouths, I mean... um... you
>know what I'm talking about.
That was the scene where the First as Buffy really worked - it was
possibly wasted earlier (and maybe later)
>The visuals are strong and evocative. The mass of hell minions as
>Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
>as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
>destruction consuming Sunnydale.
Visuals by LOTR, music by Last of the Mohicans
>1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
>Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
>find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
>Angel got it and what's in those files.
This is the most signicant thing that watching AtS 4 adds to BtVS 7, but
I don't think it answers there knowing how it would work - I didn't
think they did (not an AtS spoiler - I may just not remember them giving
that answer, since I try to avoid watching AtS 4 whenever possible.
> But several lines of
>dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
>putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
>plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
>one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
>previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
>for them.
Especially stupid when they went into the hellmouth before Willow's
spell kicked in - hence before they even knew it would work. And yet
Willow's spell was unnecessary, Spike alone could have done it.
>2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
>übervamps were all strong and stuff?
Yeah
>3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
>Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
>thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
>that this might not be the best kind of monster to create?
Yeah
>Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
>worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
>it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke, gets killed while helping
>keep Andrew alive, as a natural extension of (and as
>backwards-foreshadowed by) their talk last episode. Sorry to see you
>go.
Whedon, yet again, is not a nice man.
>So the show ends looking over the ruins of Sunnydale and its Hellmouth.
>Xander's wisecracking, Willow's enjoying the enormity of it, Giles
>is spoiling the mood. And then instead of giving Buffy the last word,
>the show poses a question for her that stays unanswered as she smiles
>and we fade to black. It's one of those ideas I've always liked
>- the moment that the story ends is the moment that the hero begins
>living her own life, no longer a slave to destiny or to the needs of
>the world... or the viewer. Whether she keeps killing stuff or tries
>something else is up to her alone, not to us or the writers. Unless
>Joss later decides to resurrect her show as a comic book, that is.
It was a good ending note
>AOQ rating: Good
I'd only go as far as Decent, but it was a big improvement on recent
episodes. In fact that seems to me to be a recurring theme of the post
Whedon era of BtVS (S4 on). The episodes leading up to the finales are
contrived, as other writers strive manfully to deliver the characters to
Whedon's pre-arranged starting positions for the finale. The finales
themselves, while not great (I'm counting Primeval as the season-arc
finale of S4 here, with Restless as a bonus epsiode) are such a relief
after what has immediately preceded them.
One nit-pick you didn't mention is something that hangs over the
supposedly happy ending. Even without Spike around to remind us, we
surely know that magic always has consequences. Resurrecting just one
Slayer apparently created a weakness in the Slayer line that gave the
First a chance to destroy it. And now they've made every potential a
Slayer? That's gotta cost.
But a better ending than was looking likely after the last 3 episodes.
To me, this is the 105th best BtVS episode, 13th best in season 7
Apteryx
yamsham
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161400373....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
>übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
>of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
>was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
>we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
>not compute,
Maybe they weren't done baking yet?
Mike Voss
3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
that this might not be the best kind of monster to create?
This was adressed in an Angel ep, quite nicely but with
a lame ending :-)
Mike
Apteryx
news:1161400373....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ Season Seven
>Bad - 1
>Weak - 1
>Decent - 6
>Good - 11
>Excellent - 2
>SUPERLATIVE - 1
>Average rating: 3.68 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
>Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 64%
This is probably the season where we are furthest apart. I get:
Bad - 3
Weak - 4
Decent - 8
Good - 7
Two of the Goods are very high Goods, both in my top 20 BtVS episodes.
My average rating in my different numerical system is 5.06, or middling
Decent. On this viewing my average rating for S7 improved slightly from
5.08. Interestingly that increased average came from my disliking the
weaker 2nd half of the season a little less this time. At the halfway
point, my appreciation of the stronger 1st half had diminished
sufficiently that the average for the season at that point had fallen to
5.11, and S7 had temporarily lost its coveted 10th place amongst the 12
Buffyverse seasons to AtS 3, with which it has always had a fierce
rivalry.
Quality % in your terms (Good or better) would be only 33% for me, which
is certainly the lowest amongst BtVS seasons (although its rival AtS 3
currently manages only 13.6%, and the horrible season of AtS only 4.5%)
Apteryx
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> Writers: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
We've had our differences in the past (you mostly haven't seen them,
because I just haven't had time to get into discussions), but we're in
pretty much complete agreement on this one. And for most of S7, for
that matter. I'm glad for you that you were able to enjoy the season.
Much better than being consumed with bitter, seething resentment, I say
(the seethers are of course welcome to their bitterness. I have
lingering anger over, for example, The X-Files myself, so it's not as
if I can't understand them). Anyway, I think your review here
perfectly sums up what's right and what's wrong with "Chosen." It is a
lot like "The Gift," in that it only works if you don't look at the
plot mechanics too closely. Or better yet, at all. Even a S7 defender
like myself can admit that Buffy's plan was idiotic in the extreme, and
only worked because Joss said so.
One thing that's definitely changed since
> S1 is Boreanaz's comic timing; I smile just thinking about the
> delivery on the "everyone has a soul now" ramble.
DB had improved a LOT. Also, Angel was never funnier than when he was
being a pissy bitch.
> And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one.
And it's the final iteration of that running gag. I've been amused by
it, for what it's worth.
The thing that annoys me most about "Chosen" is that Joss never gave us
a shot or series of shots that made it easy (or even possible) to count
heads at the end. We only saw 4 out of the 40 Good Guys die (Buffy,
Willow, Xander, Giles, Faith, Wood, Anya, Spike, Andrew, and officially
30 Potentials, including the named ones), but it looks like a lot fewer
than 36 got out. I've only been able to come up with about 18 for a
count, and that only after obsessively rewatching frame-by-frame.
Maybe someone has better numbers. But it looks like 50% casualties to
me. Maybe 2/3 for the Potentials. Going into the Seal was a one-way
ticket for most of those nameless girls.
I agree totally with your paragraph about how S7 is "less more" than
S6. I was still "I'll die if I miss an ep," but not as much, you know?
Your 3 points of concern were debated extensively back in the day, and
are still being argued/complained about in some corners of the Web even
now. So you're definitely on-target.
> Trachtenberg may have played a role in picking Dawn's clothes all
> year, but this seems to be like what the character has always wanted to
> wear. How did it go over with the dirty old man contingent?
You know, I've never really noticed her clothes in "Chosen." I did
notice her look of fury and hate as she swung at an Ubie. I also
noticed her shrieks of fury when she jumped on the back of a cop a few
eps ago. Dawn went from a charatcer who was mostly annoying to one I'd
want on my side in a fight.
Speaking of character development, this was what I posted on Television
Without Pity after this ep:
Vi's to do list:
1. Kick ass.
2. Take names.
3. Star in spin-off series "Vi the Vampire Slayer."
I just loved how frickin' hardcore she got, compared to her early "wee
tim'rous beastie" phase. A lot of other people made the same kind of
comments -- kudos to the actress.
> That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
Thanks for watching and posting.
-- Mike Zeares
JJ Karhu
<a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1161400373....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>The visuals are strong and evocative. The mass of hell minions as
>>Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
>>as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
>>destruction consuming Sunnydale.
>
>Visuals by LOTR, music by Last of the Mohicans
A hefty touch of Gladiator in there as well. But it works.
>> But several lines of
>>dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
>>putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
>>plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
>>one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
>>previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
>>for them.
>
>Especially stupid when they went into the hellmouth before Willow's
>spell kicked in - hence before they even knew it would work. And yet
>Willow's spell was unnecessary, Spike alone could have done it.
And let's not forget that there's one little hole through which those
ubies that get past the Slayers must pass in order to get
above-ground. Yet, the rest of the Scoobies spread out into the school
to hold them off. I would've stayed right at the hole, chopping off
some heads.
Or blasting a hole through the roof, letting sunshine fall on the
hole.
This episode is certainly a very fine example of how Whedon goes for
the emotions, not the logic.
// JJ
Ian Galbraith
> And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one.
You gotta love Vi in this episode though.
> Anyway, there's a
> conscious sense of touching base with the show's history that works
> whether one is a Scoobie facing death or a viewer facing the final
> episode. It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
> to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
> banter together before themselves moving off one at a time.
Agreed, even if its not the shows best episode its certainly a very
suitable ending to the whole show.
> But also like Season Seven, there are a few places
> where "Chosen" feels shoddy on a more literal narrative sense as
> the story falls apart some. That's also why, despite the
> number-crunching below, I'd say I like S6 better than S7
Agreed although I ranked more episodes in S7 excellent than you and indeed
I probably have more S7 episodes ranked excellent than S6 but I still think
S6 is better overall.
[snip]
> "Chosen" also reminds me of the last Joss-penned season finale,
> "The Gift," in that we have an episode that plays right on many
> levels but certain bits don't hold up to scrutiny. Sadly, it gets
> more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
> distracting for me:
The Gift is a better episode for me as well.
[snip]
> That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
Thanks for writing, the newsgroup has certainly been a better place for it.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I am content.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Excellent for me.
> [Season Seven ratings:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
Good
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
Good
> 4) "Help" - Good
Excellent
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
Excellent
> 6) "Him" - Bad
Decent
> 7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
Excellent
> 8) "Sleeper" - Decent
Good
> 9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
Decent
> 10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
Weak
> 11) "Showtime" - Good
Decent
> 12) "Potential" - Good
Good
> 13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
Good
> 14) "First Date" - Decent
Decent
> 15) "Get It Done" - Decent
Excellent
> 16) "Storyteller" - Good
Excellent
> 17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
Excellent
> 18) "Dirty Girls" - Good
Good
> 19) "Empty Places" - Good
Decent
> 20) "Touched" - Excellent
Good
> 21) "End Of Days" - Good
Good
> 22) "Chosen" - Good]
Excellent
[snip]
> Ratings by season:
> S1: Mean = 3.67, 50% quality
> S2: Mean = 3.55, 64% quality
> S3: Mean= 3.86, 68% quality
> S4: Mean= 3.5, 55% quality
> S5: Mean = 3.55, 50% quality
> S6: Mean = 3.68, 62% quality
> S7: Mean= 3.68, 64% quality
> Complete series: Mean = 3.64, 59% quality
My season rankings: 6, 7 & 5, 2, 3, 4, 1
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> Writers: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Well, first of all Buffy gets to kill Caleb again... I don't see what
> was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
> the series's rapidly dwindling time.
C'mon - villians *never* die the first time you kill them! It's cliche,
but...
> This leads to Buffy and Angel having a last graveyard chat. It's a
> callback to the show's early days, but I admit I was hoping to see
> the two of them stand side by side against evil again; this seems more
> like a token appearance.
They had him for 7 hours I think...
> One thing that's definitely changed since
> S1 is Boreanaz's comic timing; I smile just thinking about the
> delivery on the "everyone has a soul now" ramble.
Petty Angel is one of my favourite things in this or any world. And I
think their kiss & chat was very important for Buffy. When he first
arrived he was so obviously The Big Hero, like she's always seen him in
her mind... and then he turns into Jealous Petty Guy! I think she
finally lets go of the metal image she's had since she was 16, and sees
him for who he is. It doesn't change her feelings, but is another part
of growing up. It began with a kiss, and ended with one... and of
course they might one day get their happy ending. Who knows.
> After all
> the failed attempts to have a normal life, two early deaths, most of a
> season of not really wanting to live, we end up with dessert analogies.
I love the cookie-dough speech. And of course it ties in wonderfully
with the ending.
> All in all, this episode cements how the First never
> really emerged as much of a villain for me - then again, this isn't
> a show about the villains, and this one blends into the background
> perhaps more easily than any other in the series. I'm with those
> like Mike who don't feel the need to care much one way or the other
> about Big Bad, other than as something to hang character moments from.
That's a very good way of looking at it - to defeat it they have to
overcome their own fears. The First is like that little devil on your
shoulder, trying to get you to do the bad thing. Like S6 the battles
are mostly internal, which is why I like it very much.
> Speaking of which, there's a nice little scene between our hero and
> her undead lover; it speaks for itself, but it's nice.
> Champion!Spike's redemption arc seems very earned for me, and
> remember that I was initially skeptical.
My favourite story ever! :) And I love their second night - that
fade-to-black is one of the best things Joss ever did. As he says on
the comentary:
"To me it's almost the most important shot in the show, because it
shows the mystery of their relationship; and that's one where I
wanted the audience to fill in the blank. I wanted whatever _you_ want
to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their
last night together they made love - great. If people believe that on
their last night together they talked all night, if people believe they
had a fight - great. Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer. The
viewer has earned that and I love that analytical nature that there
should be work for the viewer to do in that sense. Emotionally I think
that makes it more textured, and that shot of the two of them looking
at each other I just find that beautiful ... "
> Then it's on to the big
> fight, and a few last quiet scenes to lead up to it. I get a kick out
> of Buffy shrugging off Dawn defying her wishes; this is just how it is.
Awww, the Nibblet's all growed up!
> The D&D game, with Andrew running things, is kinda stupid but in a
> totally in-character way, and I laughed. And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one.
Which is of course why she gets killed... oh and Andrew is wearing
Buffy's Little Red Riding Hood cloak from 'Fear, Itself'.
> Anyway, there's a
> conscious sense of touching base with the show's history that works
> whether one is a Scoobie facing death or a viewer facing the final
> episode.
*sniff*
> It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
> to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
> banter together before themselves moving off one at a time. Going for
> another "the Earth is definitely doomed" riff may have been pushing
> it, though.
Joss might have been a bit sentimantal, bless him.
> Also note that Buffy's in her element, applying a
> villain's words in a way it hadn't intended and again coming up
> with a solution that's outside the system. I like the visual of the
> Buffy-on-Buffy action... just using their mouths, I mean... um... you
> know what I'm talking about.
>
> "Buffy, what you said, it - it flies in the face of everything
> we've ever - every generation has ever done in the fight against
> evil. I think it's bloody brilliant." A big part of Giles's
> character in one line.
And it heals their rift from 'The Gift', where they had their huge
shouting match.
> The visuals are strong and evocative. The mass of hell minions as
> Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
> as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
> destruction consuming Sunnydale. Knocking the sign into the pit adds
> that little extra personal touch, as the series has been so good at.
I love it for being totally epic. *happy sigh*
> Willow going all blonde and white-goddess-like just strikes me as sorta
> cheesy, the whole visual and everything. I feel like it "should"
> bother me more, as an end to the Dark Willow fallout, but I think I'm
> not too upset because one doesn't have to view it as a
> "solution." The magic is something she'll always live with,
> right? Redemption and recovery can happen one day at a time, for the
> rest of her life, not through some big epiphany. Anyway, the followup
> "that was nifty" reminds me of why she's such a great character.
It's about reaching deeper down than the darkenss - and finding light.
We've had so much about the _First_ Evil all season, indicating that
that's where the power lies - but they break through and find what's
underneath all that (Wicca good and love the earth and woman power...
etc) It's cheesy, but I love it. :)
> Also love the little sheepish look playing off Buffy's "this woman
> is more powerful..." bit.
Actually talking about the speech, it's another thing that reminds me
of The Gift. Then Buffy's last, inspiring words to her troops were:
BUFFY: Everybody knows their jobs. Remember, the ritual starts, we all
die. And I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn.
To which Spike and Giles shared their little British moment:
SPIKE: Well, not exactly the St. Crispin's Day speech, was it?
GILES: We few... we happy few.
SPIKE: We band of buggered.
This time though - she *does* give her St Crispin's Day speech:
Buffy: Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change
our destiny. From now on, every girl in the world who might be a
slayer... will be a slayer. Every girl who could have the power... will
have the power... can stand up, will stand up. Slayers... every one of
us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?
I love that speech.
> I used the phrase "symbolically right" above, and it describes my
> general feelings about "Chosen." For the most part, it feels right
> for the characters to end their journey here. In that respect it's
> reminiscent of Season Seven as a whole, which has been fulfilling as
> far as themes go. Just having known these people for so long allows
> for a sense of incredibly rich character history that's come through
> in this and other episodes (such as this year's masterpiece,
> "Selfless"). But also like Season Seven, there are a few places
> where "Chosen" feels shoddy on a more literal narrative sense as
> the story falls apart some. That's also why, despite the
> number-crunching below, I'd say I like S6 better than S7
The thing is that S6 and S7 come as a pair - they are a whole. The
characters are torn down in S6. Every one of them falls apart. S7 puts
them back together and makes them more - and yes they're a bit
battered, and not as shiny as they once were, but I still love that
journey. It ain't perfect, but I'm more than happy with what we got.
> 1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
> Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
> find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
> Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
> dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
> putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> for them.
A lot of people have commented on this (as you might expect), but more
than anything it's symbolic. To quote Joss' commentary again:
"And this, this I knew I was coming to from the start of the season -
pretty early on in it. Buffy was isolated as a character - even in the
world Buffy and her gang never ensemble. Always like the star and the
others in the magazines and what not, and it was very important to me
to say: OK, great that you've worshipped this one iconic character,
but find it in yourself everybody; and that's why we shot the people
all over."
> 2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
> übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> Room thought this was in any way a problem.
Last Joss quote:
"People complained again that the vampires were too easy to kill - they
were supposed to be stronger than other vampires, and the fact of the
matter is: it's true. Like the convenient magic it's true, because
again I was more interested in showing the empowerment than I was in
the continuity. To make every vampire as hard to kill as the first one
would have been too hard."
Joss's strengths and weaknesses as a writer showing rather clearly in
this ep! :)
> 3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
> Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> that this might not be the best kind of monster to create?
Well that's their job now - to find them all.
> Speaking of whom... you know how towards the end of a story, the author
> sometimes feels the need to start pairing characters off left and
> right? That's basically what I get from the stuff with Faith and
> Robin Wood, but I feel like the personalities and the actors gel well
> enough to make it forgivable.
I do like that pairing a lot - because it might just be a momentary
connection, or maybe something more. It's left wide open.
> Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
> worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
> it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke, gets killed while helping
> keep Andrew alive, as a natural extension of (and as
> backwards-foreshadowed by) their talk last episode. Sorry to see you
> go. I very much like the last Xander/Andrew moment at the end.
Well the point is that Anya's death _is_ pointless. Spike gets to save
the world - Anya just dies. It's Joss saying that death is often
meaningless. It just happens. (Xander calls out for her and she's
_right there_ - but he doesn't see her.) But then we get Andrew, who
finally discovers that his gift for storytelling can be a positive - he
can give Anya's death meaning. Can help Xander through that most
difficult and painful of moments.
> As for
> the other big central character's death, Spike goes out in style, as
> seems fitting. Both the effects and his last words make for something
> that's sad, but not depressing because it's a triumph, the peak of
> his hero's journey.
There is no part of that I don't love. Flaming hands? Knocks me out
every.single.time. But about that last exchange:
"I love you."/"No you don't."
The thing is - denial doesn't mean disbelief (to those of you who think
he didn't believe her - fine! I'm just pointing out another way of
looking at it, OK? I really don't want to argue about it). Because this
most glorious of scenes has a S6 parallel - the alleybeating in 'Dead
Things':
BUFFY: I have to do this. Just let me go.
SPIKE: I can't. I love you.
BUFFY: No, you don't.
SPIKE: You think I haven't tried not to?
To point out another parallel with The Gift: Death is your gift. Buffy
was confused by this in 'Intervention' - was it a gift to give, or one
that she received. And - it was both! In The Gift, her death was a gift
to Dawn (and the world). But now Spike's death is a gift to Buffy:
"Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will
bring you to your gift."
Or as Spike put it in 'Beneath You':
"She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and
love. He will be loved."
Except of course instead of taking Buffy's love, he gives it back to
her. He doesn't need it anymore. To quote OMWF:
"You have to go on living. So one of us is living".
But more than anything, the scene echoes 'Becoming'. Buffy and the
vampire she loves at the end of the world. To quote the_royal_anna:
'It's the most wonderful contrast. Angel may have got his soul back at
the last minute but Buffy still had to kill him like a monster. But
Spike - Spike dies a man.'
(From this beautiful post by the_royal_anna that you should read if you
like: http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/1340.html - no spoilers,
but avoid the comments.)
We see this most clearly in these words:
Buffy (to Angel): "Close your eyes."
(Angel gets killed, the victim of his own choices.)
Spike (to himself): "I wanna see how it ends."
(Spike dies with his eyes open, having deliberately chosen his role -
years worth of trying to be his own man coming together.)
Don't get me wrong btw, I *adore* Becoming. But I'm very grateful that
it wasn't the end of the story.
> So the show ends looking over the ruins of Sunnydale and its Hellmouth.
> Xander's wisecracking (to keep from crying, bless him.)
> Willow's enjoying the enormity of it (They saved the world!!!!),
> Giles is spoiling the mood (heh).
> And then instead of giving Buffy the last word,
Her last words on the show are "I love you" and "Spike". But yeah, I
love her silence and smile at the end. Just beautiful.
> the show poses a question for her that stays unanswered as she smiles
> and we fade to black. It's one of those ideas I've always liked
> - the moment that the story ends is the moment that the hero begins
> living her own life, no longer a slave to destiny or to the needs of
> the world... or the viewer. Whether she keeps killing stuff or tries
> something else is up to her alone, not to us or the writers.
This is why I love the fact that the show didn't end after 'The Gift'.
That's not to say that The Gift isn't a fantastic ending, but I love
the fact that Buffy isn't The Slayer Who Died, but The Slayer Who
Lived. The one who never followed the rules and ended up undoing them.
:)
> Unless
> Joss later decides to resurrect her show as a comic book, that is.
Well...
> That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
No kidding. Thanks for writing! I've enjoyed muchly!
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I am content.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I can't put a rating on this one. When I first watched it, I did not
know of fandom or any of that stuff. And my initial reaction was very
simple: 'OMG THEY KILLED SPIKE!!!!!!' (Incredible and amazing way to go
- BUT THEY KILLED HIM!!!) Since we'd just had broadband installed I
went online to find out anything at all... and the rest is history! *g*
Stephen Tempest
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
Notice the clue in the episode title: the missing word "... One". :)
>Well, first of all Buffy gets to kill Caleb again... I don't see what
>was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
>the series's rapidly dwindling time. I suppose it's traditional
>for woman-hating villains to take it in the crotch at some point.
It's also traditional for villains to come back after they're supposed
to be dead, so I don't have a problem with BtVS putting in a homage to
the genre that inspired it.
Also, because The First is a non-corporeal entity that - as mariposas
said - can't be killed by physical means, it seems right to have Buffy
dealing with a Big Bad that *can* be killed in such a way in the
finale.
(Random trivia which I haven't seen mentioned yet, although I may have
missed it: the writing team had started referring privately to Caleb
as 'The Second' by this time)
> This leads to Buffy and Angel having a last graveyard chat. It's a
>callback to the show's early days, but I admit I was hoping to see
>the two of them stand side by side against evil again; this seems more
>like a token appearance.
Would you care to make a prediction now on whether Buffy will make a
guest appearance in the final episode or two of 'Angel'?
>Speaking of which, there's a nice little scene between our hero and
>her undead lover; it speaks for itself, but it's nice.
The giving-the-amulet one, or the one where Buffy comes downstairs and
looks at Spike wordlessly across the basement? Because the latter
doesn't so much speak for itself, as deliberately leave itself vague
so Spuffy 'shippers and non-shippers can each read their own
interpretation into what happened next...
>It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
>to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
>banter together before themselves moving off one at a time.
I loved that scene on first viewing, because I was watching everyone
go about their business and totally didn't realise that we'd been
stripped down to the original Core Four - until the camera pulled back
to show them, and I thought "Yes! Of course!"
They also created the mood of tension and foreboding really well, I
thought. You really felt that these people were fully aware that they
might be going to their deaths.
>"Buffy, what you said, it - it flies in the face of everything
>we've ever - every generation has ever done in the fight against
>evil. I think it's bloody brilliant." A big part of Giles's
>character in one line.
The moment where the tension between him and Buffy is finally
resolved, and also Giles' return to his original character after the
intrusion of Pod-Giles. (Or 'traumatised by the loss of all his
friends and colleagues and the destruction of his world' Giles, if you
want to be fair)
>Willow going all blonde and white-goddess-like just strikes me as sorta
>cheesy, the whole visual and everything. I feel like it "should"
>bother me more, as an end to the Dark Willow fallout, but I think I'm
>not too upset because one doesn't have to view it as a
>"solution." The magic is something she'll always live with,
>right? Redemption and recovery can happen one day at a time, for the
>rest of her life, not through some big epiphany.
My other favourite moment on first viewing - unfortunately, now I know
what's going to happen it loses its impact on-rewatching. But I was
totally taken by surprise, and to me this *was* Willow's redemption.
She's using magic as powerful as any she's ever used, with no
hesitation... but she's using it not for personal benefit, not for
destruction and harm, but to empower other people. A selfless and
charitable use of magic... and we see a new side of her.
Since you aren't going to mention it, I also want to point out the
insight we get into Kennedy's character. When she's helping Willow set
up, she's all brash confidence and reassurance, and apparently
convinced the magic will work fine. Once Willow's casting the
spell,though, we see that this is a front; Kennedy muttering to
herself shows that she's just as nervous about the magic as Willow,
but she's been deliberately suppressing her own fear in order to help
strengthen Willow.
>Sadly, it gets
>more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
>distracting for me:
OK. These three points, as you might guess, cause more controversy and
argument than just about anything except 'is Willow really gay?' and
'how can Buffy's blood work instead of Dawn's, and did her death here
call a third Slayer?'...
I won't disagree that these are apparent plot-holes. For some people,
that's apparently a deal-breaker right there and then: and they put
the blame on the usual suspects "laziness" and "bad writing".
(Although Joss himself wrote this episode, so it's impractical to
blame Marti Noxon for it, thankfully).
Joss himself would probably argue that as long as you're excited,
moved, saddened or enthused by what you're watching, the nitty-gritty
details are unimportant.
Others, including me, choose to believe that the plot probably made
perfect sense to Joss when he was writing it, and so it's a question
of connecting together the clues and hints to make sense of the whole.
(Which is half the fun, and why newsgroups like this are still in
existence four years later).
>1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
>Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
>find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
>Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
>dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
>putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
>plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
>one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
>previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
>for them.
My interpretation: they knew that the amulet was a powerful weapon,
but not how exactly it would work or what exactly it would do. So they
brought it along anyway, but didn't make it the cornerstone of their
plans. The Chosen spell was indeed the mainstay of the plan. As Buffy
says sarcastically:
"An army _of_vampires_. However will I fight..."
At Rorke's Drift 150 or so normal human soldiers beat off an attack
from 4,000 or so enemies. If we assume one Slayer is equal to five
normal humans, the odds seem pretty good, actually. :)
There's also the fact that the physical battle isn't the real point.
The main enemy here is The First, and its victories are won through
manipulating people: causing them to despair or turn on their
comrades. It's Buffy's refusal to do that, and the cooperation of
everyone to the same cause, that really defeats The First here.
In a previous discussion on this subject, I found the following quote
really appropriate:
"Even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched
their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs
were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate
and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking
in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."
... and don't tell me that Joss didn't have Lord of the Rings firmly
in mind when he wrote this episode...
>2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
>übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
>of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
>was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
>we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
>not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
>Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
>maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
>actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
Perhaps it would, although it's a very nice explanation in itself. If
The First can do this to Caleb, you'd really have to explain why it
*wouldn't* have done it to the Turok-han as well.
You could even see the reveal of The First empowering Caleb as showing
us _in general_ how it manages to have super-powered minions, rather
than a specific explanation of Caleb's own power.
There's also the simple, mundane fact that the Turok-han The First
would choose to send out of the Hellmouth on its own, rather than in a
group, is almost bound to be the strongest, most dangerous one it
has... the champion of its race.
And finally, others have already mentioned that every time Buffy
fights Turok-han they get easier and easier for her to beat. It's a
question of learning what works, gaining confidence that this opponent
is vulnerable, and maybe something mystical as well. (Since it's a
common factor on the show that every time an opponent beats Buffy, she
comes back later and outfights it... and every time she's killed or
sugffers a near-death experience, she comes back stronger from that
too).
>3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
>Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
>thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
>that this might not be the best kind of monster to create? You've
>now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
>controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
>umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
>a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
>to propose that this power lends itself to be used only for good, but
>there's a one-word rebuttal: Faith.
Two ways to answer that, one literal and one symbolic.
Literally... yes, it's a potential problem (although one that's a
fertile field for more stories set in the Buffyverse, you have to
admit). But being a Slayer isn't only about superstrength and rapid
healing. You also get reliable instincts, prophetic dreams, and a
connection to all the Slayers that went before you. This was actually
made more explicit in the shooting script, which contained a line that
the Scythe contained "the energy and history" of all previous Slayers,
which when released by Willow's spell would presumably become the
heritage and birthright of the new Slayers. (To be blunt, those of you
who've read Larry Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" will
recognise that Superman's problem described in there is one Buffy
never had (both Parker and Riley are still alive and intact), so
clearly a Slayer's restraint over her superstrength is right down at
the automatic reflex level).
Symbolically: it's a metaphor for empowerment, and specifically for a
girl becoming a woman. (You can see that as the underlying metaphor
for the entire show, in fact.) The thing is, empowerment is messy. If
you give people the power to make their own decisions, sometimes they
can screw up. Sometimes bad things happen - which could have been
avoided if you kept all the power for yourself and didn't let others
have any responsibility. The spell Buffy and Willow create in 'Chosen'
doesn't shy away from these consequences... and symbolically, it's
very important that they don't. The Shadow Men and the old Watchers
were all about treating Slayers like children (or trained dogs) and
restraining their powers. Now, Slayers are going to be treated like
adults.
>As for
>the other big central character's death, Spike goes out in style, as
>seems fitting. Both the effects and his last words make for something
>that's sad, but not depressing because it's a triumph, the peak of
>his hero's journey.
My thoughts exactly. On first viewing season 7, I'd been semi-spoiled
that at least one major character would die in the finale, and Spike's
name was one of those mentioned as a possibility; but I knew nothing
for sure. But in 'Beneath You' when he crucifies himself on that
cross, I totally called that in the finale he would sacrifice his life
to save mankind...
> Vg nyfb pnhtug zr ol fhecevfr, tvira gung V
>gubhtug ur fgvyy unq n ovt cneg gb cynl bire ba Qrnq Obl'f fubj.
>Znlor ur'yy Funafuh?
...He descended into Hell; on the third day he rose again...
>So the show ends looking over the ruins of Sunnydale and its Hellmouth.
> Xander's wisecracking, Willow's enjoying the enormity of it, Giles
>is spoiling the mood. And then instead of giving Buffy the last word,
I wonder; do Dawn-haters resent the fact that she got the last words
spoken on the show? :)
So, AoQ, what *are* we gonna do now?
Stephen
Elisi
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> There's also the fact that the physical battle isn't the real point.
> The main enemy here is The First, and its victories are won through
> manipulating people: causing them to despair or turn on their
> comrades. It's Buffy's refusal to do that, and the cooperation of
> everyone to the same cause, that really defeats The First here.
>
> In a previous discussion on this subject, I found the following quote
> really appropriate:
>
> "Even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched
> their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs
> were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate
> and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking
> in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."
>
> ... and don't tell me that Joss didn't have Lord of the Rings firmly
> in mind when he wrote this episode...
>From the shooting script:
~~~~~~
BUFFY: I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing
but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a
step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a
little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking
five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be,
like, "dude..."
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> 1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
> Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
> find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
> Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
> dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
> putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> for them.
Yes, that and my big question: why did they open the Hellmouth and go
down into it BEFORE Willow did her big spell. Seems like you'd like to
know that the spell actually worked and turned everyone into Slayers
before you opened the door and stirred up the hornets' nest.
BTR1701
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In a previous discussion on this subject, I found the following quote
> really appropriate:
>
> "Even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched
> their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs
> were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate
> and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking
> in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."
>
> ... and don't tell me that Joss didn't have Lord of the Rings firmly
> in mind when he wrote this episode...
If he did, and something similar was his intention, then it didn't
really come through in the final product. The super-vampires never seem
to halt or waver or look afraid. They just kept coming and coming with
the same ferocity they always displayed.
> >2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
> >übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> >of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> >was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> >we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> >not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> >Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
> >maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
> >actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
>
> Perhaps it would, although it's a very nice explanation in itself. If
> The First can do this to Caleb, you'd really have to explain why it
> *wouldn't* have done it to the Turok-han as well.
Except that begs the question: if the only reason the first Turok-Han
was such a bad-ass is because The First was hyper-charging it, and
normal Turok-Hans are no more hard to kill than your run-of-the-mill
vampire, then what's the point of having Turok-Hans at all? Why didn't
they just use an army of vampires instead of creating this whole
different type and going to the lengths of explaining how hard they are
to kill, etc.?
> My thoughts exactly. On first viewing season 7, I'd been semi-spoiled
> that at least one major character would die in the finale, and Spike's
> name was one of those mentioned as a possibility; but I knew nothing
> for sure. But in 'Beneath You' when he crucifies himself on that
> cross, I totally called that in the finale he would sacrifice his life
> to save mankind...
Naq lrg ur qvqa'g, qvq ur? Oevatvat uvz bire gb gur NATRY fubj cerggl
zhpu ehvarq gung ragver nep.
> So, AoQ, what *are* we gonna do now?
When the ANGEL reviews resume, are they gonna be posted here or over on
alt.tv.angel?
Where do we go from here?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
> >distracting for me:
>
> OK. These three points, as you might guess, cause more controversy and
> argument than just about anything except 'is Willow really gay?' and
> 'how can Buffy's blood work instead of Dawn's, and did her death here
> call a third Slayer?'...
to me the biggest plot hole was the hole
nowhere in california can you have direct sunlight
coming down a hole that way
unless the planet is having a seriously bad day
even in san diego on solstice noon the sun is not directly overhead
these are important issues
for example in mib ii theres a scene to let you know the movie
actually takes place thousands of years in the past or future
(orion is not a summer constellation in this era)
Stephen Tempest
>Yes, that and my big question: why did they open the Hellmouth and go
>down into it BEFORE Willow did her big spell. Seems like you'd like to
>know that the spell actually worked and turned everyone into Slayers
>before you opened the door and stirred up the hornets' nest.
Fanwank time: because Willow's spell needed the Hellmouth to already
be open before she'd be able to cast it. Why else would she
deliberately be sitting in the Principal's office, directly over the
Seal? If the Hellmouth wasn't a factor in the spell, she could have
been safely at home, or sitting in the school bus outside.
Stephen
hayes62
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <g50kj2p0l8fiu651e...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In a previous discussion on this subject, I found the following quote
> > really appropriate:
> >
> > "Even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched
> > their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs
> > were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate
> > and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking
> > in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."
> >
> > ... and don't tell me that Joss didn't have Lord of the Rings firmly
> > in mind when he wrote this episode...
>
> If he did, and something similar was his intention, then it didn't
> really come through in the final product. The super-vampires never seem
> to halt or waver or look afraid. They just kept coming and coming with
> the same ferocity they always displayed.
I thought there was a definite change in attitude after Buffy came back
with the 5 in one blow. While she was down it was all despairing music,
Anya and Amanda got killed, Wood got stabbed. When she got back the
music turned and suddenly they seemed to have the Ubies on the run,
Faith threw a bunch of them off her, Vi and Kennedy got in some good
kills and the amulet which had stalled as Buffy went down re-activated.
> > >2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
> > >übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> > >of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> > >was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> > >we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> > >not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> > >Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
> > >maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
> > >actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
> >
> > Perhaps it would, although it's a very nice explanation in itself. If
> > The First can do this to Caleb, you'd really have to explain why it
> > *wouldn't* have done it to the Turok-han as well.
>
> Except that begs the question: if the only reason the first Turok-Han
> was such a bad-ass is because The First was hyper-charging it, and
> normal Turok-Hans are no more hard to kill than your run-of-the-mill
> vampire, then what's the point of having Turok-Hans at all? Why didn't
> they just use an army of vampires instead of creating this whole
> different type and going to the lengths of explaining how hard they are
> to kill, etc.?
Because the Turok-Han are more controllable? Normal vamps would
probably just start fighting amongst themselves. Plus they're flamable
and there's no evidence the Ubies are.
~H
hayes62
numbers of Uberdemons? The need to do it in the hellmouth was part of
the reason I thought the demon in the Shadowmen's spell might have
acted as a catalyst rather than being the power as such.
~H
Espen Schjønberg
> Fynlre." Abg whfg gur barf tngurerq; nyy bire gur jbeyq. Juvyr gung
> gubhtug fbhaqf avpr naq rzcbjrevat naq fghss, qbrf vg bpphe gb nalbar
> gung guvf zvtug abg or gur orfg xvaq bs zbafgre gb perngr?
>
> Guvf jnf nqerffrq va na Natry rc, dhvgr avpryl ohg jvgu
> n ynzr raqvat :-)
>
> Zvxr
Lrnu, vg fubhyq or cerggl boivbhf vg'f n fcbvyre gb xabj guvf rsber lbh
fgnegvat bhg jvgu qnan, "jura jvyy gur znq fynlre nccrne? vg zhfg or
guvf bar. Bx. "
--
Espen
Paul Hyett
>
>Because the Turok-Han are more controllable? Normal vamps would
>probably just start fighting amongst themselves. Plus they're flamable
>and there's no evidence the Ubies are.
Except in the episode where the first one appeared - its hand was
smouldering when Buffy escaped into the sunlight.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
hayes62
potentially flame thrower resistant.
~H
BTR1701
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <g50kj2p0l8fiu651e...@4ax.com>,
> > Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > In a previous discussion on this subject, I found the following quote
> > > really appropriate:
> > >
> > > "Even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched
> > > their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs
> > > were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate
> > > and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking
> > > in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."
> > >
> > > ... and don't tell me that Joss didn't have Lord of the Rings firmly
> > > in mind when he wrote this episode...
> >
> > If he did, and something similar was his intention, then it didn't
> > really come through in the final product. The super-vampires never seem
> > to halt or waver or look afraid. They just kept coming and coming with
> > the same ferocity they always displayed.
>
> I thought there was a definite change in attitude after Buffy came back
> with the 5 in one blow. While she was down it was all despairing music,
> Anya and Amanda got killed, Wood got stabbed. When she got back the
> music turned and suddenly they seemed to have the Ubies on the run,
> Faith threw a bunch of them off her, Vi and Kennedy got in some good
> kills and the amulet which had stalled as Buffy went down re-activated.
There may have been a change in attitude among the Slayers (and the guy
who wrote the soundtrack) but the vampires themselves never behaved any
differently, which was what the Mordor quote was suggesting.
> > > >2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
> > > >übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> > > >of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> > > >was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> > > >we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> > > >not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> > > >Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
> > > >maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
> > > >actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps it would, although it's a very nice explanation in itself. If
> > > The First can do this to Caleb, you'd really have to explain why it
> > > *wouldn't* have done it to the Turok-han as well.
> >
> > Except that begs the question: if the only reason the first Turok-Han
> > was such a bad-ass is because The First was hyper-charging it, and
> > normal Turok-Hans are no more hard to kill than your run-of-the-mill
> > vampire, then what's the point of having Turok-Hans at all? Why didn't
> > they just use an army of vampires instead of creating this whole
> > different type and going to the lengths of explaining how hard they are
> > to kill, etc.?
>
> Because the Turok-Han are more controllable? Normal vamps would
> probably just start fighting amongst themselves. Plus they're flamable
> and there's no evidence the Ubies are.
Other than the fact that 90% were killed by being burned to a cinder,
you mean?
And the ones that got caught in the sunlight when Dawn pulled the tarp
off the skylight?
BTR1701
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >Yes, that and my big question: why did they open the Hellmouth and go
> >down into it BEFORE Willow did her big spell. Seems like you'd like to
> >know that the spell actually worked and turned everyone into Slayers
> >before you opened the door and stirred up the hornets' nest.
>
> Fanwank time: because Willow's spell needed the Hellmouth to already
> be open before she'd be able to cast it.
Well, sure. You can say that but there's zero evidence for that being
the case. You could just as easily say that Willow's spell needed Faith
to being wearing a red tank-top for it to work.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
It was more impressive when Sauron did it, actually. Buffy knocked five
back. Sauron knocked an entire army back.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > And if I cared at all about
> > any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one.
>
> And it's the final iteration of that running gag. I've been amused by
> it, for what it's worth.
Good to know that someone has (other than me, of course).
> The thing that annoys me most about "Chosen" is that Joss never gave us
> a shot or series of shots that made it easy (or even possible) to count
> heads at the end. We only saw 4 out of the 40 Good Guys die (Buffy,
> Willow, Xander, Giles, Faith, Wood, Anya, Spike, Andrew, and officially
> 30 Potentials, including the named ones), but it looks like a lot fewer
> than 36 got out. I've only been able to come up with about 18 for a
> count, and that only after obsessively rewatching frame-by-frame.
> Maybe someone has better numbers. But it looks like 50% casualties to
> me. Maybe 2/3 for the Potentials. Going into the Seal was a one-way
> ticket for most of those nameless girls.
They should've showed grls dropping left and right (or had more escape,
but I want more blood). Kinda fits in with the interchangable way the
show's been treating them all season.
> You know, I've never really noticed her clothes in "Chosen." I did
> notice her look of fury and hate as she swung at an Ubie. I also
> noticed her shrieks of fury when she jumped on the back of a cop a few
> eps ago. Dawn went from a charatcer who was mostly annoying to one I'd
> want on my side in a fight.
She's always been a biter.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> My favourite story ever! :) And I love their second night - that
> fade-to-black is one of the best things Joss ever did. As he says on
> the comentary:
>
> "To me it's almost the most important shot in the show, because it
> shows the mystery of their relationship; and that's one where I
> wanted the audience to fill in the blank. I wanted whatever _you_ want
> to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their
> last night together they made love - great. If people believe that on
> their last night together they talked all night, if people believe they
> had a fight - great. Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer. The
> viewer has earned that and I love that analytical nature that there
> should be work for the viewer to do in that sense. Emotionally I think
> that makes it more textured, and that shot of the two of them looking
> at each other I just find that beautiful ... "
I thought sex was pretty clearly implied. But does it really matter,
given how well the fade-out worked?
> A lot of people have commented on this (as you might expect), but more
> than anything it's symbolic. To quote Joss' commentary again:
>
> "And this, this I knew I was coming to from the start of the season -
> pretty early on in it. Buffy was isolated as a character - even in the
> world Buffy and her gang never ensemble. Always like the star and the
> others in the magazines and what not, and it was very important to me
> to say: OK, great that you've worshipped this one iconic character,
> but find it in yourself everybody; and that's why we shot the people
> all over."
Except that not everybody gets to find it in themselves (even with the
obvious exclusion of guys). "Slayers, all of them" doesn't include
every girl, only those lucky enough to have, as Pearl Jam would say,
won the lottery when they were born. Normal kids like Dawn are still
what they've always been.
> Last Joss quote:
>
> "People complained again that the vampires were too easy to kill - they
> were supposed to be stronger than other vampires, and the fact of the
> matter is: it's true. Like the convenient magic it's true, because
> again I was more interested in showing the empowerment than I was in
> the continuity. To make every vampire as hard to kill as the first one
> would have been too hard."
>
> Joss's strengths and weaknesses as a writer showing rather clearly in
> this ep! :)
Agreed on that. That's a great summary of what he is and isn't good
at.
> > 3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
> > Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> > thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> > that this might not be the best kind of monster to create?
>
> Well that's their job now - to find them all.
I'm torn between going for a Pokémon joke or pointing out that giving
everyone a "job" would weaken the point of the ending. Destiny's done
with them; involvement in the world-shaking stuff has to be by choice
now.
> Well the point is that Anya's death _is_ pointless. Spike gets to save
> the world - Anya just dies. It's Joss saying that death is often
> meaningless. It just happens. (Xander calls out for her and she's
> _right there_ - but he doesn't see her.) But then we get Andrew, who
> finally discovers that his gift for storytelling can be a positive - he
> can give Anya's death meaning. Can help Xander through that most
> difficult and painful of moments.
Thank you, that's a very nice way of thinking about it.
> Buffy (to Angel): "Close your eyes."
>
> (Angel gets killed, the victim of his own choices.)
>
> Spike (to himself): "I wanna see how it ends."
>
> (Spike dies with his eyes open, having deliberately chosen his role -
> years worth of trying to be his own man coming together.)
That's just... neat.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> Writers: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
So according to the show's own internal logic, Buffy and Willow are now
rapists. Way to go, Joss. That's something I could have lived without
seeing you do to these characters.
Mike Voss
news:1161459439....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> > (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> > Writers: Joss Whedon
> > Director: Joss Whedon
>
> You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
> but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
> bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
> ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
> her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
> and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
> hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
Absolutely not. They got what Buffy got: a chance to fulfill
their potential. What the Shadow Men tried to do to Buffy
was introduce a concentrated power rooted in darkness.
Buffy and Willow did NOT attempt to force this on the
world's potentials. They were given the power only,
as Buffy had gotten it and Faith had gotten it.
Mike
Arbitrar Of Quality
> You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
> but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
> bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
> ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
> her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
> and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
> hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
>
> So according to the show's own internal logic, Buffy and Willow are now
> rapists. Way to go, Joss. That's something I could have lived without
> seeing you do to these characters.
Well, they're careful to always use the term "violation" rather than
"rape." The show's not as clear as it could be there, but part of the
violation might involve making the First Slayer the only one who's been
chosen, the one who has to give her life for the world, and treating
her as their pet killer. The new era of Slayers is going to operate by
a very different model than the Shadow Men and the old Watchers used.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
But they didn't get the power the same way Buffy and Faith got it. They
got the power because Willow cast a spell that forced the power on
them. The very same power that the Shadowmen gave to the first Slayer.
So if the Shadowmen forcing the Slayer power on the first Slayer
without her consent is rape, how is Buffy and Willow forcing the Slayer
power on hundreds or thousands of Potentials without their consent not
rape?
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > > 3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
> > > Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> > > thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> > > that this might not be the best kind of monster to create?
> >
> > Well that's their job now - to find them all.
>
> I'm torn between going for a Pokémon joke or pointing out that giving
> everyone a "job" would weaken the point of the ending. Destiny's done
> with them; involvement in the world-shaking stuff has to be by choice
> now.
Just how many girls became Slayers is subject to debate, with people
supporting anything from there being dozens of them, up to thousands of
them. I tend to come in on the low side, given all the effort that the
Scoobies put into gathering potentials, and the First into killing them,
most of the surviving potentials should have been in Sunnydale already.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
burt...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
> > but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
> > bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
> > ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
> > her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
> > and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
> > hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
> >
> > So according to the show's own internal logic, Buffy and Willow are now
> > rapists. Way to go, Joss. That's something I could have lived without
> > seeing you do to these characters.
>
> Well, they're careful to always use the term "violation" rather than
> "rape."
Well, this line here from Buffy in "Get It Done":
"You think I came all this way to get knocked up by some demon dust?"
says pretty clearly that the metaphor is about rape and not just
"violation." Note the use of the term "knocked up."
> The show's not as clear as it could be there, but part of the
> violation might involve making the First Slayer the only one who's been
> chosen, the one who has to give her life for the world, and treating
> her as their pet killer. The new era of Slayers is going to operate by
> a very different model than the Shadow Men and the old Watchers used.
But it was the act itself - the act of forcing the Slayer power on a
girl who didn't consent to receive it - that was portrayed as rape. Not
the things that may have happened after the act.
hayes62
Clearly I was unclear, by flamable I meant flamable by flames. Molotov
cocktails. cigarette lighters that kind of thing.
~H
hayes62
Clearly I was unclear, by flamable I meant flamable by flames. Molotov
cocktails, cigarette lighters that kind of thing.
~H
hayes62
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
> > > but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
> > > bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
> > > ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
> > > her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
> > > and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
> > > hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
> > >
> > > So according to the show's own internal logic, Buffy and Willow are now
> > > rapists. Way to go, Joss. That's something I could have lived without
> > > seeing you do to these characters.
> >
> > Well, they're careful to always use the term "violation" rather than
> > "rape."
>
> Well, this line here from Buffy in "Get It Done":
>
> "You think I came all this way to get knocked up by some demon dust?"
>
> says pretty clearly that the metaphor is about rape and not just
> "violation." Note the use of the term "knocked up."
Ignoring the fact that a metaphor is a way of pointing out that one
thing is like another not that one thing is exactly the same as
another, being knocked up by demon dust sounds more like a mystical
impregnation than a rape. Not that that's necessarily better.
> > The show's not as clear as it could be there, but part of the
> > violation might involve making the First Slayer the only one who's been
> > chosen, the one who has to give her life for the world, and treating
> > her as their pet killer. The new era of Slayers is going to operate by
> > a very different model than the Shadow Men and the old Watchers used.
>
> But it was the act itself - the act of forcing the Slayer power on a
> girl who didn't consent to receive it - that was portrayed as rape. Not
> the things that may have happened after the act.
As others have pointed out, it's equally possible to see the potentials
as having a power that the old stae of affairs forcibly denied them
access to. They might have the dreams but not the freedom to choose to
fulfill them. One analogy might be with the laws that used to prevent
women access to university education or to the professions. As with
Slaying not avenues that all would be suited to or wish to take up but
removing those barriers was nevertheless a big step foraward in women's
emancipation.
~H
Elisi
We see the difference on screen. In GiD Buffy was chained to a rock,
screaming in pain as the demon essence entered her. That is what the
original creation of the Slayer was like. The calling of a new Slayer
is clearly different - Buffy wasn't even aware that she'd become a
Slayer before her Watcher arrived. We see the Potentials in Chosen get
swept away by their new power, full of self-assurance - not screaming
in pain.
Mel
They already had the power within them. The spell simply unlocked it.
Mel
hayes62
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> Writers: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
> the series's rapidly dwindling time. I suppose it's traditional
> for woman-hating villains to take it in the crotch at some point. EVS.
Always good to kick start an episode with a good slay.
> This leads to Buffy and Angel having a last graveyard chat. It's a
> callback to the show's early days, but I admit I was hoping to see
> the two of them stand side by side against evil again; this seems more
> like a token appearance. One thing that's definitely changed since
> S1 is Boreanaz's comic timing; I smile just thinking about the
> delivery on the "everyone has a soul now" ramble. Spike is a bit
> of a point of contention, with Buffy sort of saying out loud that he
> means a lot to her, but the conversation is more about Buffy. This
> part doesn't rock my world, although it has that vague regret and
> twinge of enduring hope for them to somehow work it out that I've
> enjoyed in all the ATS-era B/A scenes. I would like to note that the
> cookie speech suggests that she definitely intends to (and seems
> confident in her ability to) survive to bake another day. After all
> the failed attempts to have a normal life, two early deaths, most of a
> season of not really wanting to live, we end up with dessert analogies.
A very Buffy Summers metaphor, inelegant, homely and turning out ever
so slightly inappropriate but I liked the sentiment. Very Angel to be
always walking away and equally gratifying that this time it's
because she asked him to go.
> As one may have concluded based on my review of "End Of Days," I
> was expecting that the First would try to find a way to play Spike
> against Buffy. Instead it mostly stands around mouthing vague
> discouragements. Or maybe it thought it'd done its job, and badly
> misjudged him. All in all, this episode cements how the First never
> really emerged as much of a villain for me - then again, this isn't
> a show about the villains, and this one blends into the background
> perhaps more easily than any other in the series. I'm with those
> like Mike who don't feel the need to care much one way or the other
> about Big Bad, other than as something to hang character moments from.
> Speaking of which, there's a nice little scene between our hero and
> her undead lover; it speaks for itself, but it's nice.
This episode it finally struck me that the First never tells anyone
anything they couldn't have figured out (or in Andrew's case
dreamed up) themselves. It only ever had the power that people gave it
after all, no wonder its plan was to make itself a real boy.
> Champion!Spike's redemption arc seems very earned for me, and
> remember that I was initially skeptical. Then it's on to the big
> fight, and a few last quiet scenes to lead up to it. I get a kick out
> of Buffy shrugging off Dawn defying her wishes; this is just how it is.
> The D&D game, with Andrew running things, is kinda stupid but in a
> totally in-character way, and I laughed. And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one. Anyway, there's a
> conscious sense of touching base with the show's history that works
> whether one is a Scoobie facing death or a viewer facing the final
> episode. It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
> to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
> banter together before themselves moving off one at a time. Going for
> another "the Earth is definitely doomed" riff may have been pushing
> it, though. Also note that Buffy's in her element, applying a
> villain's words in a way it hadn't intended and again coming up
> with a solution that's outside the system. I like the visual of the
> Buffy-on-Buffy action... just using their mouths, I mean... um... you
> know what I'm talking about.
>
> "Buffy, what you said, it - it flies in the face of everything
> we've ever - every generation has ever done in the fight against
> evil. I think it's bloody brilliant." A big part of Giles's
> character in one line.
I think a large part of the podGiles behaviour was because he's lost
faith in his Slayer but in the end no-one was ever so
characteristically happy to be proved wrong.
> The visuals are strong and evocative. The mass of hell minions as
> Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
> as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
> destruction consuming Sunnydale. Knocking the sign into the pit adds
> that little extra personal touch, as the series has been so good at.
> Willow going all blonde and white-goddess-like just strikes me as sorta
> cheesy, the whole visual and everything. I feel like it "should"
> bother me more, as an end to the Dark Willow fallout, but I think I'm
> not too upset because one doesn't have to view it as a
> "solution." The magic is something she'll always live with,
> right? Redemption and recovery can happen one day at a time, for the
> rest of her life, not through some big epiphany. Anyway, the followup
> "that was nifty" reminds me of why she's such a great character.
> Also love the little sheepish look playing off Buffy's "this woman
> is more powerful..." bit.
Willow's story was the only one that felt a little rushed to me. I
wish there could have been more discussion of the power suck in GiD.
Kennedy could have brought it up in Touched in lieu of the annoyingly
cute bondage metaphor.
> I used the phrase "symbolically right" above, and it describes my
> general feelings about "Chosen." For the most part, it feels right
> for the characters to end their journey here. In that respect it's
> reminiscent of Season Seven as a whole, which has been fulfilling as
> far as themes go. Just having known these people for so long allows
> for a sense of incredibly rich character history that's come through
> in this and other episodes (such as this year's masterpiece,
> "Selfless"). But also like Season Seven, there are a few places
> where "Chosen" feels shoddy on a more literal narrative sense as
> the story falls apart some. That's also why, despite the
> number-crunching below, I'd say I like S6 better than S7 (the two are
> probably my favorite years of the show that aren't my beloved Season
> Three. S2 is up there too, though), even though S7 scores a little
> higher based purely on the rough individual-episode rankings. Both are
> more than the sum of their parts, but S7 is somewhat less more; the
> hiccups in the narrative don't bother me as deeply as they do some
> people, but they're harder to entirely brush past.
I think S6 has higher high points than 7 but when it's bad it's
very bad ::cough:: Older and Far Away ::cough:: so if I have to compare
S7 wins on points. It also wins for ending the season with such a
magnificent paradigm-shifting twist that that finally heals the
psychological fault line of Buffy's heroic, but existentially
isolating, calling and, to wax biblical, sets her people free. For the
most part I find the alleged plot holes and narrative faults of S7
either par for the Joss or failures to answer questions that the season
merely raises in passing, adjuncts to the story not its heart. Like
the instability in the Slayer line or whether Joyce's words to Dawn
came true.
> "Chosen" also reminds me of the last Joss-penned season finale,
> "The Gift," in that we have an episode that plays right on many
> levels but certain bits don't hold up to scrutiny. Sadly, it gets
> more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
> distracting for me:
>
> 1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
> Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
> find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
> Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
> dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
> putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> for them.
I'm fairly simple minded about these things. When I watched GD II I
figured the plan was for the Senior class to hold off the Mayor while
Buffy used Faith's knife to lure him into the library and on to the
bomb. When I saw Chosen I figured the plan was for the Slayers to beat
back the Ubie-army for long enough to give the amulet time to scrub its
bubbles and effect the clean up Spike mentioned. One improvement on the
GD plan was that this time they had some contingency arrangements. If
Spike were killed they'd created a whole army of ensouled but more
than human candidates to wear the amulet in his place. If it never
triggered the emerging Turok Han would still have Angel Inc and all the
new Slayers around the world to contend with.
> 2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
> übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
> maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
> actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
It actually never occurred to me that all Turok Han should be equally
powerful. Standard vamps vary considerably in strength and fighting
prowess so why not these? Also one point of Buffy's plan was to face
the still growing army before it reached its full strength and that
could mean both numerically and individually - most of Ubies are
likely still evil cookie dough.
> 3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
> Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> that this might not be the best kind of monster to create? You've
> now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
> controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
> umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
> a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
> to propose that this power lends itself to be used only for good, but
> there's a one-word rebuttal: Faith.
Neither Buffy nor Faith ever seemed to have a problem with acts of
accidental superstrength. It appears to be something that needs to be
consciously drawn on when not fighting demons. In the event, Faith's
destructive powers were limited to the odd mugging in between hiring
herself out as a paid assassin.
In many ways I suspect that the old problem with a Slayer going rogue
would have been that the hellmouth/world was left unguarded (which we
saw the effect of in Bargaining) rather than the damage she personally
might inflict. With multiple Slayers this becomes less of an issue.
Unlike most demons, evil Slayers can be taken down with a gun if
necessary. Or a better option, made possible by the activation, would
be for other Slayers to do the job (with sub-lethal force). It's a
self-correcting problem.
[snip]
> That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
And for writing.
~H
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
Another aspect of it: "Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"
The Potentials were given the choice. They chose to become Slayers.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-E734C7...@news.giganews.com...
the earth to gather a Potential? How much money do the Scoobies have, and
how can they afford to gather everybody in view of the fact that the Council
of Watchers have been decimated?
> most of the surviving potentials should have been in Sunnydale already.
>
That's an assumption, and it is not guaranteed. As far as I can tell,
Watchers and those white witches of the Coven only had ad hoc ways of
locating Potentials. Imagine some poor girl, financially speaking, in a
remote village in an untamed jungle or in the Arctic being activated. How on
earth could she get to Sunnydale without money (even if there were a "homing
beacon" calling her to Sunnydale)?
It's far more likely that the world was now "littered" with many "lost"
Slayers, many of which didn't know what the heck they were supposed to be,
only that they had superpowers. By Murphy's Law, many of them would become
perfect villains.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
lili...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> Writers: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
> the series's rapidly dwindling time. I suppose it's traditional
> for woman-hating villains to take it in the crotch at some point. EVS.
> callback to the show's early days, but I admit I was hoping to see
> the two of them stand side by side against evil again; this seems more
> like a token appearance. One thing that's definitely changed since
> S1 is Boreanaz's comic timing; I smile just thinking about the
> delivery on the "everyone has a soul now" ramble. Spike is a bit
> of a point of contention, with Buffy sort of saying out loud that he
> means a lot to her, but the conversation is more about Buffy. This
> part doesn't rock my world, although it has that vague regret and
> twinge of enduring hope for them to somehow work it out that I've
> enjoyed in all the ATS-era B/A scenes. I would like to note that the
> cookie speech suggests that she definitely intends to (and seems
> confident in her ability to) survive to bake another day. After all
> the failed attempts to have a normal life, two early deaths, most of a
> season of not really wanting to live, we end up with dessert analogies.
>
> was expecting that the First would try to find a way to play Spike
> against Buffy. Instead it mostly stands around mouthing vague
> discouragements. Or maybe it thought it'd done its job, and badly
> misjudged him. All in all, this episode cements how the First never
> really emerged as much of a villain for me - then again, this isn't
> a show about the villains, and this one blends into the background
> perhaps more easily than any other in the series. I'm with those
> like Mike who don't feel the need to care much one way or the other
> about Big Bad, other than as something to hang character moments from.
> Speaking of which, there's a nice little scene between our hero and
> her undead lover; it speaks for itself, but it's nice.
> remember that I was initially skeptical. Then it's on to the big
> fight, and a few last quiet scenes to lead up to it. I get a kick out
> of Buffy shrugging off Dawn defying her wishes; this is just how it is.
> The D&D game, with Andrew running things, is kinda stupid but in a
> totally in-character way, and I laughed. And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one. Anyway, there's a
> conscious sense of touching base with the show's history that works
> whether one is a Scoobie facing death or a viewer facing the final
> episode. It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
> to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
> banter together before themselves moving off one at a time. Going for
> another "the Earth is definitely doomed" riff may have been pushing
> it, though. Also note that Buffy's in her element, applying a
> villain's words in a way it hadn't intended and again coming up
> with a solution that's outside the system. I like the visual of the
> Buffy-on-Buffy action... just using their mouths, I mean... um... you
> know what I'm talking about.
>
> "Buffy, what you said, it - it flies in the face of everything
> we've ever - every generation has ever done in the fight against
> evil. I think it's bloody brilliant." A big part of Giles's
> character in one line.
>
> Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
> as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
> destruction consuming Sunnydale. Knocking the sign into the pit adds
> that little extra personal touch, as the series has been so good at.
> Willow going all blonde and white-goddess-like just strikes me as sorta
> cheesy, the whole visual and everything. I feel like it "should"
> bother me more, as an end to the Dark Willow fallout, but I think I'm
> not too upset because one doesn't have to view it as a
> "solution." The magic is something she'll always live with,
> right? Redemption and recovery can happen one day at a time, for the
> rest of her life, not through some big epiphany. Anyway, the followup
> "that was nifty" reminds me of why she's such a great character.
> Also love the little sheepish look playing off Buffy's "this woman
> is more powerful..." bit.
>
> general feelings about "Chosen." For the most part, it feels right
> for the characters to end their journey here. In that respect it's
> reminiscent of Season Seven as a whole, which has been fulfilling as
> far as themes go. Just having known these people for so long allows
> for a sense of incredibly rich character history that's come through
> in this and other episodes (such as this year's masterpiece,
> "Selfless"). But also like Season Seven, there are a few places
> where "Chosen" feels shoddy on a more literal narrative sense as
> the story falls apart some. That's also why, despite the
> number-crunching below, I'd say I like S6 better than S7 (the two are
> probably my favorite years of the show that aren't my beloved Season
> Three. S2 is up there too, though), even though S7 scores a little
> higher based purely on the rough individual-episode rankings. Both are
> more than the sum of their parts, but S7 is somewhat less more; the
> hiccups in the narrative don't bother me as deeply as they do some
> people, but they're harder to entirely brush past.
>
> "The Gift," in that we have an episode that plays right on many
> levels but certain bits don't hold up to scrutiny. Sadly, it gets
> more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
> distracting for me:
>
> 1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
> Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
> find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
> Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
> dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
> putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> for them.
>
> übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
> maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
> actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
>
> Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
> controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
> umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
> a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
> to propose that this power lends itself to be used only for good, but
> there's a one-word rebuttal: Faith.
>
> sometimes feels the need to start pairing characters off left and
> right? That's basically what I get from the stuff with Faith and
> Robin Wood, but I feel like the personalities and the actors gel well
> enough to make it forgivable. There's enough background and
> right-place right-time to justify the initial hookup, and they're
> still driven by curiosity. I don't feel like whether or not the
> right combination of charm and sexual assertiveness can help Faith work
> through her issues with men was a primary concern, given everything
> else going on, but I don't mind watching it. I totally called the
> fake-out during his "death" scene; the show knows he's one of the
> ones who could conceivably die, so just goes all-out with the false
> death.
>
> Trachtenberg may have played a role in picking Dawn's clothes all
> year, but this seems to be like what the character has always wanted to
> wear. How did it go over with the dirty old man contingent?
>
> Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
> worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
> it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke, gets killed while helping
> keep Andrew alive, as a natural extension of (and as
> backwards-foreshadowed by) their talk last episode. Sorry to see you
> go. I very much like the last Xander/Andrew moment at the end. As for
> the other big central character's death, Spike goes out in style, as
> seems fitting. Both the effects and his last words make for something
> that's sad, but not depressing because it's a triumph, the peak of
> his hero's journey. Vg nyfb pnhtug zr ol fhecevfr, tvira gung V
> gubhtug ur fgvyy unq n ovt cneg gb cynl bire ba Qrnq Obl'f fubj.
> Znlor ur'yy Funafuh?
>
> So the show ends looking over the ruins of Sunnydale and its Hellmouth.
> Xander's wisecracking, Willow's enjoying the enormity of it, Giles
> is spoiling the mood. And then instead of giving Buffy the last word,
> the show poses a question for her that stays unanswered as she smiles
> and we fade to black. It's one of those ideas I've always liked
> - the moment that the story ends is the moment that the hero begins
> living her own life, no longer a slave to destiny or to the needs of
> the world... or the viewer. Whether she keeps killing stuff or tries
> something else is up to her alone, not to us or the writers. Unless
> Joss later decides to resurrect her show as a comic book, that is.
>
> That was quite a ride. Thanks for reading.
>
>
>
> One-sentence summary: I am content.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Seven ratings:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
> 6) "Him" - Bad
> 7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
> 8) "Sleeper" - Decent
> 9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
> 10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
> 11) "Showtime" - Good
> 12) "Potential" - Good
> 13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
> 14) "First Date" - Decent
> 15) "Get It Done" - Decent
> 16) "Storyteller" - Good
> 17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
> 18) "Dirty Girls" - Good
> 19) "Empty Places" - Good
> 20) "Touched" - Excellent
> 21) "End Of Days" - Good
> 22) "Chosen" - Good]
>
>
> BY THE NUMBERS
> [Note: "Bargaining" is counted twice]
>
> _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ Season Seven
>
> Bad - 1
> Weak - 1
> Decent - 6
> Good - 11
> Excellent - 2
> SUPERLATIVE - 1
>
> Average rating: 3.68 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
> Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 64%
>
>
> _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_, complete series
>
> ABOMINATION - 0
> Bad - 3
> Weak - 11
> Decent - 45
> Good - 62
> Excellent - 22
> SUPERLATIVE - 1
>
> Ratings by season:
> S1: Mean = 3.67, 50% quality
> S2: Mean = 3.55, 64% quality
> S3: Mean= 3.86, 68% quality
> S4: Mean= 3.5, 55% quality
> S5: Mean = 3.55, 50% quality
> S6: Mean = 3.68, 62% quality
> S7: Mean= 3.68, 64% quality
> Complete series: Mean = 3.64, 59% quality
Actually, I like that Buffy's last words on the show are:"I love you,
Spike" *g*
It almost makes the ep worth watching.
I do think that Chosen is a tragedy, that Buffy has given the First
exactly what it wants. Hundreds, possibly thousands of slayers all over
the world, just ready and ripe to be corrupted by the First.
My main theory ever since Buffy ended, has been that the First's plan
was to scare Buffy, then lead her to the scythe ... all with the
intention of scaring her into activating all the slayers.
It might have misjudged itself slightly, in that it failed to have
Spike killed or corrupted. I still think that it saw Spike as the
biggest threat and without Spike, Buffy, the scoobs and the potentials
would have all been dead, as the First intended.
But I don't think that releasing that army of Ubervamps was its goal,
in fact, the ubervamps were a means to an end so that Buffy would
empower the slayers. Because it's the slayers that are the threat that
the world has to deal with now...
Lore
PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the kiss is the most
disgusting scene of Buffy ever, it's one of the few moments in all of
Buffy that I've ever despised Buffy herself. At least Spike was more
mature than me and just decided to release his anger on a punching bag.
(Harmony) Watcher
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:1161462073.2...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Clearly I was unclear, by flamable I meant flamable by flames. Molotov
> cocktails, cigarette lighters that kind of thing.
>
Can you explain how sunlight would turn a vamp or Turok Han into a cinder
block if not by flames?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Apteryx
But Buffy was bullshitting them. There was no choice. Potentials not in
the room when she offered that "choice" to those present were activated.
Presumably so would any potentials in the room who turned it down.
--
Apteryx
BTR1701
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
How do we know a good blast of napalm wouldn't finish one off?
Don Sample
A decimated CoW still leaves 90% of them out there. They had the coven
and others looking for the MCs too.
> > most of the surviving potentials should have been in Sunnydale already.
> >
> That's an assumption, and it is not guaranteed. As far as I can tell,
> Watchers and those white witches of the Coven only had ad hoc ways of
> locating Potentials. Imagine some poor girl, financially speaking, in a
> remote village in an untamed jungle or in the Arctic being activated. How on
> earth could she get to Sunnydale without money (even if there were a "homing
> beacon" calling her to Sunnydale)?
The other thing is the First's plan. If it was really trying to kill
*all* the potentials, then it had to have a reasonable expectation that
it could *find* all the potentials, which means that there can't really
be all that many of them.
BTR1701
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the kiss is the most
> disgusting scene of Buffy ever,
So scenes of cold-blooded murder are less disgusting to you than Spike
getting his feelings hurt?
Wow, you certainly have drunk the Kool-Aid.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> Another aspect of it: "Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"
>
> The Potentials were given the choice. They chose to become Slayers.
Yeah, the one's that happened to be in the room. The others all of the
world? Not so much.
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
That is a presumption on your part. It may be that some of the girls in
Buffy's living room said "no thanks" and walked away, and weren't
called. It is possible that each and every girl who was called also had
to make the choice.
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
Magic.
lili...@gmail.com
BTR1701 schreef:
Scenes of cold blooded murder are horrible, but they're part of the
series. Buffy degrading herself, being pulled entirely ooc just so that
Angel can keep the Bangel shippers happy. The way she was de-matured
just for Joss cookie dough joke (which by the way makes no sense, cause
no one is ever finished baking. Hell, the only way a person can be
finished growing is when they're dead. The idea of Buffy assuming that
she can't be in a relationship until she's done is the stupidest thing
said on Buffy ever. Because that's just NOT how life works.)
Honestly, Joss forced Buffy back into the role of the star struck
little girl with a crush on her dark knight and the only way I can get
through that scene is to see it as Buffy kindly and finally letting go
of Angel once and for all with no intention of ever hooking up with him
ever again.
Lore
jil...@hotmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
> but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
> bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
> ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
> her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
> and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
> hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
>
> So according to the show's own internal logic, Buffy and Willow are now
> rapists. Way to go, Joss. That's something I could have lived without
> seeing you do to these characters.
Here we go again.
No. Putting a demonic presence into a protesting girl is tantamount to
rape. Opening the gates for horses at a race course is completely
different.
My not-so-humble opinion to follow:
Secondary point. All of the girls activated were potentials. Er...
Potential slayers live their lives with strange and interesting dreams
about being powerful and fighting monsters. Those that are Chosen have
already had years of subconscious conditioning. Why did the First
think it could get away with this? The First could only find
Potentials that had already been found. It watches, it listens... it's
The First Evil, for goodness sakes. The Watchers and the Coven
effectively led it to Potentials. My guess is that the potentials who
hadn't been found are the most protected, and in general the least
likely to be Chosen. Maybe they weren't born or conceived as close to
the very moment you had to be.
My other theory is the Slayer power is seeded in all Potentials. So it
doesn't matter how many there are Chosen, because each and every one of
them will be as powerful as she can be before she dies.
(Harmony) Watcher
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161469234.0...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> My main theory ever since Buffy ended, has been that the
> First's plan was to scare Buffy, then lead her to the
> scythe ... all with the intention of scaring her into
> activating all the slayers.
>
> It might have misjudged itself slightly, in that it
> failed to have Spike killed or corrupted. I still
> think that it saw Spike as the biggest threat and
> without Spike, Buffy, the scoobs and the potentials
> would have all been dead, as the First intended.
>
> But I don't think that releasing that army of
> Ubervamps was its goal, in fact, the ubervamps
> were a means to an end so that Buffy would
> empower the slayers. Because it's the slayers
> that are the threat that the world has to deal with now...
>
No disrepect intended, but isn't that fairly close to 3D Master's theory
about the First (that the First was playing dumb all along but was
skillfully manipulating Buffy into achieving what it wanted in the first
place)?
> Lore
> PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the
> kiss is the most disgusting scene of Buffy ever, it's one
> of the few moments in all of Buffy that I've ever despised
> Buffy herself. At least Spike was more mature than me and
> just decided to release his anger on a punching bag.
>
>
I sensed your pain, but it would have been equally disgusting if Buffy
kissed Spike just before she left the cavern.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <F6x_g.166957$1T2.65689@pd7urf2no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > "hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> > news:1161462073.2...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Clearly I was unclear, by flamable I meant flamable by flames. Molotov
> > > cocktails, cigarette lighters that kind of thing.
> > >
> > Can you explain how sunlight would turn a vamp or Turok Han into a cinder
> > block if not by flames?
>
> Magic.
they are impure and cannot bear the gaze of the goddess sol
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
BTR1701
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> BTR1701 schreef:
>
> > In article <1161469234.0...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the kiss is the most
> > > disgusting scene of Buffy ever,
> >
> > So scenes of cold-blooded murder are less disgusting to you than Spike
> > getting his feelings hurt?
> >
> > Wow, you certainly have drunk the Kool-Aid.
>
> Scenes of cold blooded murder are horrible, but they're part of the
> series.
So is Spike getting his feelings hurt.
> The idea of Buffy assuming that she can't be in
> a relationship until she's done is the stupidest thing
> said on Buffy ever. Because that's just NOT how life works.)
That's how Buffy sees it working. Maybe she's wrong. Big surprise. Like
she's never been wrong before.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Unless it hadn't thought that part of its plan through, either. (Like
the part about how it was gonna take over the world with a few thousand
creatures who are vulnerable enough that they can be killed by a sunny
day and/or a couple dozen stronger-than-average girls.)
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-79748...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-035CA9...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <F6x_g.166957$1T2.65689@pd7urf2no>,
> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1161462073.2...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Clearly I was unclear, by flamable I meant flamable by flames. Molotov
> > > > cocktails, cigarette lighters that kind of thing.
> > > >
> > > Can you explain how sunlight would turn a vamp or Turok Han into a cinder
> > > block if not by flames?
> >
> > Magic.
>
> they are impure and cannot bear the gaze of the goddess sol
So then by that logic anything that doesn't burst into flames during the
daylight *is* pure?
(Harmony) Watcher
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161473161....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> BTR1701 schreef:
>
> > In article <1161469234.0...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the kiss is the
most
> > > disgusting scene of Buffy ever,
> >
> > So scenes of cold-blooded murder are less disgusting to you than Spike
> > getting his feelings hurt?
> >
> > Wow, you certainly have drunk the Kool-Aid.
>
> Scenes of cold blooded murder are horrible, but they're part of the
> series. Buffy degrading herself, being pulled entirely ooc just so that
> Angel can keep the Bangel shippers happy. The way she was de-matured
> just for Joss cookie dough joke (which by the way makes no sense, cause
> no one is ever finished baking. Hell, the only way a person can be
> finished growing is when they're dead. The idea of Buffy assuming that
> she can't be in a relationship until she's done is the stupidest thing
> said on Buffy ever. Because that's just NOT how life works.)
>
>
> Honestly, Joss forced Buffy back into the role of the star struck
> little girl with a crush on her dark knight and the only way I can get
> through that scene is to see it as Buffy kindly and finally letting go
> of Angel once and for all with no intention of ever hooking up with him
> ever again.
>
... juvpu jnf, bs pbhefr, cebira snyfr, bapr-naq-sbe-nyy, va gur rneyvre NgF
rcvfbqr "VJEL". Ohssl jbhyq arire trg bire ure pehfu ba ure svefg ybir sbe
gur erfg bs ure yvsr. Fjrrg tvey, lbh xabj.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
If that's a scenario which we're supposed to take seriously, then they
should have shown us a scene with Dawn, Xander and Andrew manning the
phones, calling the potentials all over the world, explaining to them
the entire history of the Slayer, telling them that they have the chance
to be one, and asking them to give their consent. And while they're at
it, they could show us why any one of these far-flung potentials would
consider the whole thing as something other than a crazy crank call.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> Writers: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
.
> Well, first of all Buffy gets to kill Caleb again... I don't see what
> was so wrong with the first killing to make this a worthwhile use of
> the series's rapidly dwindling time. I suppose it's traditional
> for woman-hating villains to take it in the crotch at some point. EVS.
Aside from sheer traditionalism, I think the main reason for Caleb to come
back is so that Buffy has a distinct, individual villain to kill. The
climactic fight of the finale is against a horde of anonymous ubervamps
and Bringers. It also served to give Nathan Fillion one more episode for
his resume (and paycheck). Note how Caleb's black eyes run over and spill
down his cheeks; apparently the First gave him one hell of a powerup while
we weren't looking, but Buffy makes short work of him anyway. I like the
little swing she uses to bring the Scythe up into Caleb's crotch. And I
*love* her horribly corny little joke and burst of laughter. It deflates
any premature feeling of resolution; it reminds us of Buffy's frivolous
side (too little seen of late); and it must have been exquisitely painful
for Spike -- what he sees is Buffy being happy and light-hearted with
Angel in the room and Spike apparently gone.
> This leads to Buffy and Angel having a last graveyard chat.
This is the Whedonesque payoff to Angel's overly melodramatic arrival in
End of Days. The melodrama is undercut by humor, and there's nothing like
a simple resolution to the B/A story; just the opposite, the point is that
Buffy herself isn't ready for one. I take her choice of analogy as
another reminder of Buffy's frivolous side, or maybe her general habit of
clumsy yet strangely eloquent speech, or maybe just one last junk food
reference. Two little directorial touches I liked were the angel monument
looming behind them during most of this conversation (a reminder of the
shadow of Angelus hanging over their relationship?) and the way Angel
leaves by walking backwards into shadow (definitely an echo of their first
meeting, possibly a comment on Angel's character).
> As one may have concluded based on my review of "End Of Days," I
> was expecting that the First would try to find a way to play Spike
> against Buffy. Instead it mostly stands around mouthing vague
> discouragements. Or maybe it thought it'd done its job, and badly
> misjudged him.
This was probably a deliberate misdirect, but surprisingly they don't play
it up at all. The most notable part here is not the First's inadequate
attempts at sabotage but what it shows us about Spike's growth. However
petty he gets, he doesn't come close to falling for the First's
manipulation. I wouldn't say he's "redeemed," but he has at least made
progress towards becoming a good man. (See, I'm not totally opposed to
Spike's redemption; I just think it comes *now*, rather than in FFL or
Intervention or DT or Grave.) He seems more humbled, even intimidated,
than proud when Buffy declares him a champion by giving him the
thingamajig. And he cuts back on the macho cock-of-the-walk swagger,
thank gawd.
> I get a kick out
> of Buffy shrugging off Dawn defying her wishes; this is just how it is.
Another very Whedonesque moment, when a potential lengthy tearful argument
is compressesd into a kick in the shin and "If you get killed, I'm
telling." The same goes for their brief non-goodbye before the big fight.
It feels a bit weird that these scenes consitute the *only* interaction
between the sisters for 41/42s of the episode, but both scenes are very
well done, saying a lot with very few words. I also liked Xander's "Don't
look at me. This is a Summers thing. It's all very violent." You really
don't want to get between those two.
> The D&D game, with Andrew running things, is kinda stupid but in a
> totally in-character way, and I laughed.
Just like most (though not all) of the TIRSBILA moments throughout the
series are still totally in-character. The whole scene is a little gem,
from the initial misdirect that they're planning the real battle to
Andrew's cape to the final sight of Anya snoring on the table. And of
course Joss had to get another one-shot scene in. (There's another nice
incongruous D&D game in Freaks and Geeks, though I don't remember if Sarah
Hagen was in that one.)
About Spike and Buffy's last night together: I don't see them making love.
It just don't have a sex vibe to me. But I do imagine them holding each
other through the night, much like they did in Touched. And that means
that regardless of the sex or lack thereof, I picture them as behaving
like lovers for that final night.
> And if I cared at all about
> any of the MC5x10^23, Amanda would be the one.
I have to join the chorus speaking up for Vi. She's really come a long
way from the girl in the funny knit cap who squeaks when Spike scares her.
Then she was adorable; now ... well, I think "incredibly hot" covers it.
> Anyway, there's a
> conscious sense of touching base with the show's history that works
> whether one is a Scoobie facing death or a viewer facing the final
> episode. It's symbolically right to finish back at the school, and
> to have everyone else fade away and let the original four have a last
> banter together before themselves moving off one at a time. Going for
> another "the Earth is definitely doomed" riff may have been pushing
> it, though.
Aw, I liked that. The initial moment of silence shows how seriously they
all feel. Then, they're done. I wanted to cheer when Buffy brightly asks
the others what they want to do tomorrow. It's not just unexpected and
funny. No serious speech could have served so well as this banter as a
reaffirmation of their bond and the emotional strength Buffy has found.
(A good example of showing instead of telling.) The echo of The Harvest
bookends the whole series; it's also an echo of Buffy and Wood's
conversation in the season 7 opener, which took place on the same spot and
is seeen with the same circling camera. The silent walk down the hall is
nice too, and somewhat makes up for the core four being separate during
the big battle.
Which brings me to one of my disappointments about the end of the season
(and to some extent the whole season). Look at the last three episodes.
In Touched, Spike has Buffy to himself for the whole episode. In End of
Days and Chosen, Xander, Faith, and Angel have nice one-on-one scenes with
Buffy, but Willow, Dawn and Giles only get brief exchanges with her during
group scenes. [Sorry, I didn't mean for this to sound so much like I was
describing a porno.] They're nice exchanges, but still. And while Willow
at least gets to do something really cool, Giles and Dawn's biggest
moments come while plaing D&D and pulling down a tarp (or maybe when
tasering Xander). Meanwhile, Spike has, what, four big one-on-one moments
with Buffy, maybe five (if you count the conversation and the holding in
Touched separately), plus the ambiguous last night together, plus he gets
the single biggest cool moment of them all when he brings the Hellmouth
down. I don't begrudge Spike his time with Buffy, but I want the others
to have more! Willow and Giles in particular are shorted, as they have
been for most of the season. Maybe there was no way to fix this without
turning the last two finale into a long checklist of B/W scene, B/D scene,
B/G scene, etc. Maybe. But things still feel disappointingly out of
whack.
> Redemption and recovery can happen one day at a time, for the
> rest of her life, not through some big epiphany. Anyway, the followup
> "that was nifty" reminds me of why she's such a great character.
> Also love the little sheepish look playing off Buffy's "this woman
> is more powerful..." bit.
Well said. I also liked her nervous little laugh when she asks Kennedy
"You ready to, heh heh, kill me?"
And then we finally find out what Buffy's plan is. I have to admit I
didn't figure it out until the show actually told us. I knew Willow was
going to do some sort of magic to empower the Potentials, but I was
thinking along the lines of some temporary strength enhancement, or maybe
a duplicate of the Scythe for everyone, or something. The real plan is
obviously a lot better, logically and thematically. (I guess that's why
Joss is Joss and I'm just me.) Every Potential in the world becomes a
Slayer. This ties together several continuing threads. There's the power
thing, obviously, going back to the beginning of Lessons. There's the
Buffy as leader theme. She's back in charge, in that she plans and gives
direction, but the way she leads now is by empowering others. Maybe not
an example that every leader could follow in every circumstance, but it's
much better suited to Buffy's strengths and personality than leading in
the style of an army general (or a Watcher). It's the followup to the
Guardian's cryptic message that Buffy already has weapons: the Scythe is
important mainly as a tool to empower the Potentials that Buffy already
has. It's the supreme example of Buffy "redefining the job." And it's
the culmination of the series-long story of Buffy's struggle with being
the Chosen One. She's still Chosen, but no longer has the burden of being
the One (or One of Two). In retrospect, it seems like the perfect way to
end the show.
Quibble time: I'm not happy with the idea that the Shadow Men just *chose*
to have a single Slayer, so they could control her in their nefarious male
way. IMO empowering the Potentials is feminist enough without having to
drag in some nasty males to contrast it to. And the idea that they could
have always had scores of Chosen Ones kinda diminishes the Slayer for me,
since before this I had figured that the Shadow Men had to strain every
ounce of their power just to make one Slayer. It also seems to diminish
Willow's achievement, since it implies that the Shadow Men could have done
the same thing if they felt like it. Not a big deal though, certainly
nowhere near as annoying as the Shadow Men in Get It Done or the Guardian
in End of Days. And Buffy might have just been guessing that the Shadow
Men "made up that rule" anyway.
> "Chosen" also reminds me of the last Joss-penned season finale,
> "The Gift," in that we have an episode that plays right on many
> levels but certain bits don't hold up to scrutiny. Sadly, it gets
> more noticeable here than it did there. Just the three that were most
> distracting for me:
Agreed. I think it's considerably worse in Chosen than The Gift. The
Summers blood thing was the only real weak point I saw in The Gift,
whereas Chosen has several. Others have already gone into the logical
flaws in Buffy's plan; you can fanwank them away, but there's a lot of
wanking required. Eventually your fanwanking arm gets tired. I can look
past plot holes and lapses of logic to the emotional and thematic levels,
but it would be better if I didn't have to. And there are some thematic
and emotional problems too, most importantly in having Spike rather than
Buffy and her empowered army deliver the decisive blow. It's a fine end
to *Spike's* arc, but leaves Buffy without that satisfying moment of
supreme heroism and badassery.
> else going on, but I don't mind watching it. I totally called the
> fake-out during his "death" scene; the show knows he's one of the
> ones who could conceivably die, so just goes all-out with the false
> death.
And now Wood's already made good on his promise to surprise Faith.
> Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
> worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
> it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke,
As well as one last monkey reference. I feel bad when people refer to
Anya's death (which btw was quite remarkably brutal) as pointless or
senseless. She didn't single-handedly save the world, but she was
fighting the good fight when she died, one little footsoldier in Buffy's
army. And she did take out a couple of ubervamps, either one of which
might have killed some of her friends as they fled the school. I say Anya
went out a hero.
> Sorry to see you
> go. I very much like the last Xander/Andrew moment at the end.
Fans (including me) have sometimes complained about Xander joining in the
happy ending right after learning of Anya's death. After watching again,
I think the important thing here is that Xander apparently realized Anya
was dead *before* he talked to Andrew. He was already over the first
shock and somewhat comforted by Andrew's exaggeration. This allows him to
feel the joy and relief of victory without forgetting about Anya's death.
> As for
> the other big central character's death, Spike goes out in style, as
> seems fitting. Both the effects and his last words make for something
> that's sad, but not depressing because it's a triumph, the peak of
> his hero's journey.
My take on the final Buffy-Spike scene: I think Buffy really did love
Spike at that moment. (Or at least she thought she did, which amounts
to the same thing since we're only talking about a moment here.) She
wasn't just telling Spike "I love you" to comfort him, she really meant
it. But it's easy to love someone when he's saving the world, and even
easier when you know he's going to be dust in a few minutes. What Spike
realizes at this final, supremely truthful moment, is that she doesn't
love him the *way* he wants. If he survived, it could never work out
between them. That's what his "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it"
meant. It's an update of his little speech in The Gift: "I know you'll
never love me. I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man." In
both cases he realizes he can't have what he wants, and is grateful for
what Buffy does give him. But in The Gift he blames himself for being a
monster who isn't worthy of Buffy, who treats him better than he deserves.
In Chosen, there's no blame, just a bittersweet recognition that given
their natures and his past, things couldn't have gone any better than they
did between them. And he's okay with that. YMMV, of course.
Bs pbhefr frnfba svir bs gur bgure fubj pbzcyvpngrf nyy guvf. Vg'f abg
hayvxr Ohssl'f erghea va Onetnvavat; ur ybfrf uvf arng erfbyhgvba naq trgf
fghpx jvgu n zrffl nsgrezngu. Ohg gung'f va gur shgher. Abj, va gur ynfg
uryyzbhgu fprar va Pubfra, Fcvxr vf pyrne naq ubarfg jvgu uvzfrys naq
Ohssl.
> Vg nyfb pnhtug zr ol fhecevfr, tvira gung V
> gubhtug ur fgvyy unq n ovt cneg gb cynl bire ba Qrnq Obl'f fubj.
> Znlor ur'yy Funafuh?
What's wrong with flashbacks?
> So the show ends looking over the ruins of Sunnydale and its Hellmouth.
> Xander's wisecracking, Willow's enjoying the enormity of it, Giles
> is spoiling the mood. And then instead of giving Buffy the last word,
> the show poses a question for her that stays unanswered as she smiles
> and we fade to black. It's one of those ideas I've always liked
> - the moment that the story ends is the moment that the hero begins
> living her own life, no longer a slave to destiny or to the needs of
> the world... or the viewer. Whether she keeps killing stuff or tries
> something else is up to her alone, not to us or the writers.
Yes, yes, yes. The whole point of the final scene is that now Buffy,
against all expectations, now has a real chance at life ahead of her.
(Her look down the long highway to the horizon is supposed to symbolize
this.) Her nascent smile is all about hope and anticipation. Tying her
down to any specific future, whatever it might be, could never be as
satisfying as that moment of hope.
> Unless
> Joss later decides to resurrect her show as a comic book, that is.
Is anyone else scared shitless about the upcoming comic? Joss has a
penchant for killing people I love. (Naq V'z abg fher ur'yy srry obhaq gb
xrrc gb jung jr urneq nobhg gur tnat va Qnzntr naq GTVD.)
> One-sentence summary: I am content.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I love Chosen. I knew going into it that I would love it unless it was
seriously unsatisfying (the same attitude I had going into Serenity), and
it wasn't, so I did. But that love is mainly because Chosen wraps up a
show that I loved to death. As with WTTH, it's hard to judge Chosen
strictly on its own merits and not its place in the overall series. If I
make the effort to do that, I have to say that there was a lot of
sloppiness in the plotting, a little in the theme, and there wasn't enough
core-four-on-core-four action. Looking at it that way, I have to knock it
down from Excellent to a high Good. But that's as low as I'm willing to
go.
Reading AOQ's reviews has prompted me to re-watch every episode of season
7 in order for the first time since the DVDs came out. Between that and
the discussions, I think I've come to a new understanding of the whole
season, and I like it more than I did a year or two ago. But it hasn't
moved up in my estimation enough to change its relative position: I'd
still call it a tie with season 1 for weakest season of Buffy. But I'd
rather watch the weakest seasons of Buffy than the best seasons of 99% of
the shows out there.
My ratings, complete with the usual modifiers and uncertainties:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
Good
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
Good
> 4) "Help" - Good
Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
Good (it's all good!)
> 6) "Him" - Bad
(guess not) Weak, or maybe a very very low Decent.
> 7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
Excellent
> 8) "Sleeper" - Decent
A high Decent.
> 9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
Very Good.
> 10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
A high Decent, nearly Good.
> 11) "Showtime" - Good
Decent
> 12) "Potential" - Good
Good
> 13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
Weak
> 14) "First Date" - Decent
Decent
> 15) "Get It Done" - Decent
High Decent or low Good.
> 16) "Storyteller" - Good
A very high Good.
> 17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
Decent
> 18) "Dirty Girls" - Good
Good
> 19) "Empty Places" - Good
Good
> 20) "Touched" - Excellent
Good
> 21) "End Of Days" - Good
Very low Good or high Decent.
> 22) "Chosen" - Good]
Good
Thanks for doing these reviews, AOQ! I've enjoyed them thoroughly.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
lili...@gmail.com
(Harmony) Watcher schreef:
Why?
At least Buffy had a bond with Spike by the end of s7. She hasn't even
spoken with Angel since the beginning of s6. There's plain out nothing
left between Buffy and Angel, nothing but the illusions both hold about
the other.
Buffy might still cling to her fantasies about Angel, but there's no
reality to them whatsoever. It's just an illusion she's held on to for
so long that she really needed a wake up call to see how little the
real Angel had to do with the Angel that Buffy imagined him to be.
Lore
Stephen Tempest
>How much money do the Scoobies have, and
>how can they afford to gather everybody in view of the fact that the Council
>of Watchers have been decimated?
Very little. However, they do have a gifted, semi-ethical computer
hacker who's also the most powerful witch in the Western Hemisphere;
and the Watchers' Council presumably had all the profits of 10,000
years of careful investment tucked away in Swiss bank accounts, which
are now going unclaimed since the Council was destroyed...
(Even assuming Giles hasn't inherited the rights to the accounts
legally)
>That's an assumption, and it is not guaranteed. As far as I can tell,
>Watchers and those white witches of the Coven only had ad hoc ways of
>locating Potentials.
Willow, on the other hand, now has a direct magical connection to all
of them:
"I can feel them, Buffy. All over. There are Slayers awakening
everywhere."
(Which also implies that there really are a lot more Potentials than
The First or the Council ever suspected)
Stephen
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> 1) I'm unclear on how much everyone knew about how Spike's Artifact
> Of +15 Purification would work; maybe once I catch up in L.A. I'll
> find out things I "should" have known at this point about where
> Angel got it and what's in those files. But several lines of
> dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
> putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> for them.
They knew Angel's attempted translation. On the UK group someone
grumbled that we didn't see Giles researching (but got D&D instead). Me?
After 7 years I don't need to see him doing that to know that he did,
and am content to assume they had a broad idea that if they stopped the
rising dark, the scrubbing bubbles would do the clean up.
Which Spike seemed to get, if no-one else.
> 2) Except our heroes prevail, because... hey, remember how those
> übervamps were all strong and stuff? To the point where *the majority
> of two fucking episodes* was spent dealing with how a single turok-han
> was a formidable challenge for even a Slayer as skilled as Buffy? Now
> we have Anya and Andrew taking out like six of them on their own. Does
> not compute, and it's simply baffling that no one in the Writer's
> Room thought this was in any way a problem. Don has proposed that
> maybe the First was specially powering up the BOTN/S one, but if so,
> actually conveying or mentioning that would've been nice.
Joss has said time and time (and time and time) again that he will
always place dramatic force above anal continuity.
But anyway, as well as all being slayers now they have also been
training for 6 months or so and have been gathering intel (Andrew and
Anya's session, remember?).
And as the passing of the Deus Ax Machina symbolised, they were
functioning as a combat unit - a team. A Slayer powered mincing machine.
Power shared and all that stuff.
And they controlled the high ground and only exit.
Things have changed rather a lot since Showtime.
> 3) "Every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a
> Slayer." Not just the ones gathered; all over the world. While that
> thought sounds nice and empowering and stuff, does it occur to anyone
> that this might not be the best kind of monster to create? You've
> now got a world crawling with Slayers with no training, no practice in
> controlling their incredible destructive skill. What happens when the
> umpire of that baseball game calls a strike when the pitch was clearly
> a foot outside, and literally gets her head knocked off? One could try
> to propose that this power lends itself to be used only for good, but
> there's a one-word rebuttal: Faith.
Gosh. Do you think that might set some themes for a putative Season 8/
spin-off (not to mention some truly terrible fanfic)?
I hope so (apart from the fanfic bit).
--
What does not kill me makes me stronger. Unless it leaves me as a quadriplegic.
(Harmony) Watcher
"JJ Karhu" <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote in message
news:9hrjj21176tmtu133...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:56:20 +1300, "Apteryx"
> <a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1161400373....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >>The visuals are strong and evocative. The mass of hell minions as
> >>Buffy and Faith and the others pass their scythe-axe around looks good,
> >>as does the part where they're burned through, as does the wave of
> >>destruction consuming Sunnydale.
> >
>
> A hefty touch of Gladiator in there as well. But it works.
>
> >> But several lines of
> >>dialogue imply that this wasn't Buffy's whole plan, that she was
> >>putting a lot of stock in the Chosen. And that's really a stupid
> >>plan. A couple dozen Slayers is a formidable army, but you only have
> >>one scythe-axe, and there are literally hundreds of the enemy,
> >>previously trapped underground, and you've opened the way to Earth
> >>for them.
> >
> >spell kicked in - hence before they even knew it would work. And yet
> >Willow's spell was unnecessary, Spike alone could have done it.
>
> And let's not forget that there's one little hole through which those
> ubies that get past the Slayers must pass in order to get
> above-ground. Yet, the rest of the Scoobies spread out into the school
> to hold them off. I would've stayed right at the hole, chopping off
> some heads.
>
> Or blasting a hole through the roof, letting sunshine fall on the
> hole.
>
> This episode is certainly a very fine example of how Whedon goes for
> the emotions, not the logic.
>
>
When the logic goes so bad that it becomes an eyesore, not just a
brain-sore, it undermines the emotional content it wanted to achieve. The
series finale does nothing much for me. Why "happy" ending? More should have
perished, maybe even Buffy. And how the heck did an old man like Giles
protect himself in a fight with Ubbies? (Oh, I know. He probably used dark
magick.) I'd say that once a handful of Ubbies got above the ground, most of
the "Scoobies" should have been toast except Willow and Giles.
In fact, Season 7 does little for me except LMPTM, Selfless and CWDP. Those
few episodes and, perhaps, a few occasional scenes here and there in the
rest of Season 7, added substantial content to the mythology, and raised
even more challenging questions. But the rest of Season 7 were just ho-hum,
and about as good as a regular Sunday night B movie. Season 7 is the worst
planned and *executed* Season of all the seasons despite its glorified
intentions.
Season 7, and in particular, the series finale, is not commensurate with the
skills and talent of JW and the rest of the ME writers. Somebody's childhood
fantasies about some lightning bug in space with no aliens ruined it for
us--OK, for me. I expected better.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
BTR1701
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> Joss has said time and time (and time and time) again that he will
> always place dramatic force above anal continuity.
Actually, he said it once and people have repeated it time and time (and
time and time) again.
> And they controlled the high ground and only exit.
Not so much controlled, considering that the vampires got past them and
into the school.
BTR1701
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "JJ Karhu" <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote in message
> > This episode is certainly a very fine example of how Whedon goes for
> > the emotions, not the logic.
> >
> >
> When the logic goes so bad that it becomes an eyesore, not just a
> brain-sore, it undermines the emotional content it wanted to achieve. The
> series finale does nothing much for me. Why "happy" ending? More should have
> perished, maybe even Buffy. And how the heck did an old man like Giles
> protect himself in a fight with Ubbies?
Fnzr jnl zrer zbegnyf fhqqrayl jrer noyr gb svtug naq xvyy inzcverf naq
nyy fbegf bs qrzbaf bire ba NATRY (vapyhqvat Serq, jub jrvtug nyy bs 90
yof qevccvat jrg): jevgre'f svng.
hayes62
We don't. Hence the phrase "there's no evidence the Ubies are (as
susceptible to fire as standard vamps)."
~H
hayes62
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <hu9kj2dp25i9jn06v...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> > >Yes, that and my big question: why did they open the Hellmouth and go
> > >down into it BEFORE Willow did her big spell. Seems like you'd like to
> > >know that the spell actually worked and turned everyone into Slayers
> > >before you opened the door and stirred up the hornets' nest.
> >
> > Fanwank time: because Willow's spell needed the Hellmouth to already
> > be open before she'd be able to cast it.
>
> Well, sure. You can say that but there's zero evidence for that being
> the case. You could just as easily say that Willow's spell needed Faith
> to being wearing a red tank-top for it to work.
Or a denim jacket and kind of beigey shirt. Very fetching. Willow so
rarely does the same spell twice, it is difficult to be certain of the
role of clothing in magic. Probably locater spells are free of
sartorial influence (although with the patchy success rate it's hard
to be sure what the demons are wearing, they could all be naked like
the Gnarl). I think a case could be made for the white dress of Bambi
slaughter as a necessary component of the ritual, since it's very
unlike what she normally wears, and Dark!Willow clearly felt it
important to change her top before going to save Buffy from the bullet.
If she'd been better dressed maybe Osiris would have listened to her.
~H
Michael Ikeda
news:1161473161....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> BTR1701 schreef:
>
>> In article
>> <1161469234.0...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the kiss
>> > is the most disgusting scene of Buffy ever,
>>
>> So scenes of cold-blooded murder are less disgusting to you
>> than Spike getting his feelings hurt?
>>
>> Wow, you certainly have drunk the Kool-Aid.
>
> Scenes of cold blooded murder are horrible, but they're part of
> the series. Buffy degrading herself, being pulled entirely ooc
> just so that Angel can keep the Bangel shippers happy.
And Angel and Buffy having powerful emotional ties that aren't ever
going to entirely go away is part of BOTH series.
While the scene was a shout-out to the fans who have been there since
the beginning, it isn't really out of character for either of the two
characters involved.
The way
> she was de-matured just for Joss cookie dough joke (which by the
> way makes no sense, cause no one is ever finished baking. Hell,
> the only way a person can be finished growing is when they're
> dead. The idea of Buffy assuming that she can't be in a
> relationship until she's done is the stupidest thing said on
> Buffy ever. Because that's just NOT how life works.)
>
It's Buffy realizing that she isn't ready yet for a permanent "The
One" kind of relationship. And that there's nothing wrong with that.
While the phrasing is a bit clumsy, the realization isn't at all
stupid.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
alphakitten
> lili...@gmail.com wrote in
> news:1161473161....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>BTR1701 schreef:
>>
>>
>>>In article
>>><1161469234.0...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>>> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>PS: And I still think that that opening scene with the kiss
>>>>is the most disgusting scene of Buffy ever,
>>>
>>>So scenes of cold-blooded murder are less disgusting to you
>>>than Spike getting his feelings hurt?
>>>
>>>Wow, you certainly have drunk the Kool-Aid.
>>
>>Scenes of cold blooded murder are horrible, but they're part of
>>the series. Buffy degrading herself, being pulled entirely ooc
>>just so that Angel can keep the Bangel shippers happy.
>
>
> And Angel and Buffy having powerful emotional ties that aren't ever
> going to entirely go away is part of BOTH series.
>
> While the scene was a shout-out to the fans who have been there since
> the beginning, it isn't really out of character for either of the two
> characters involved.
The problem for me is how it reflects on the characters.
Natry fcraqf bire n lrne vafvfgvat ur'f va ybir jvgu Pbeql, gura jura
fur'f vapbairavagyl pbzngbfr, ur tbrf favssvat nebhaq Ohssl ntnva.
In EoD, Buffy opens the door to a real official relationship with Spike.
Then Angel shows up and she opens the door to a possible future with
him. Then she returns directly to Spike's bed, apparently to keep
herself amused until she's done baking and ready for Angel.
I can't figure a way to view it in which they don't both look like
titanic assholes.
~Angel
Michael Ikeda
news:453B5161...@netscape.net:
No one has ever claimed that Buffy and Angel bring out the best in
each other.
However, Buffy isn't saying that Angel is the one she's going to
end up with. She's explicitly NOT saying that. She isn't saying
that she's going to end up with Spike, either. She's saying she
doesn't know and isn't ready yet to make any permanent decision.
To some extent, of course, both Buffy and Angel will always think
of each other as the One Great Love of their lives. That's
something deeply ingrained in both of their emotions. Doesn't mean
they'll ever get to a point where resuming a romance is a good
idea.
(They also have very idealized images of each other. Which, as
Lawrence Watt-Evans pointed out in "Matchmaking on the Hellmouth"
(in "Seven Seasons of Buffy"), is itself a very important reason
why they won't ever be able to stay together.)
BTR1701
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
Well, there's no evidence that a good dousing of powdered sugar won't
kill them either. Some things are kind of assumed.
alphakitten
At the very least, she admits that she does fantasize about ending up
with him, which (for me, anyway) looms uncomfortably over her return to
Spike.
> To some extent, of course, both Buffy and Angel will always think
> of each other as the One Great Love of their lives. That's
> something deeply ingrained in both of their emotions. Doesn't mean
> they'll ever get to a point where resuming a romance is a good
> idea.
>
> (They also have very idealized images of each other. Which, as
> Lawrence Watt-Evans pointed out in "Matchmaking on the Hellmouth"
> (in "Seven Seasons of Buffy"), is itself a very important reason
> why they won't ever be able to stay together.)
>
I agree with that entirely.
~Angel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Which brings me to one of my disappointments about the end of the season
> (and to some extent the whole season). Look at the last three episodes.
> In Touched, Spike has Buffy to himself for the whole episode. In End of
> Days and Chosen, Xander, Faith, and Angel have nice one-on-one scenes with
> Buffy, but Willow, Dawn and Giles only get brief exchanges with her during
> group scenes. [Sorry, I didn't mean for this to sound so much like I was
> describing a porno.] They're nice exchanges, but still. And while Willow
> at least gets to do something really cool, Giles and Dawn's biggest
> moments come while plaing D&D and pulling down a tarp (or maybe when
> tasering Xander). Meanwhile, Spike has, what, four big one-on-one moments
> with Buffy, maybe five (if you count the conversation and the holding in
> Touched separately), plus the ambiguous last night together, plus he gets
> the single biggest cool moment of them all when he brings the Hellmouth
> down. I don't begrudge Spike his time with Buffy, but I want the others
> to have more! Willow and Giles in particular are shorted, as they have
> been for most of the season. Maybe there was no way to fix this without
> turning the last two finale into a long checklist of B/W scene, B/D scene,
> B/G scene, etc. Maybe. But things still feel disappointingly out of
> whack.
I'd call it a S7 thing in general; those three get excluded at
different times due to the fact that there are simply way too many
characters. Not a big deal for me with regard to EOD/C since they know
each other well enough that they can say a lot with little glances and
one-liners, and hey there's always tomorrow.
> Quibble time: I'm not happy with the idea that the Shadow Men just *chose*
> to have a single Slayer, so they could control her in their nefarious male
> way. IMO empowering the Potentials is feminist enough without having to
> drag in some nasty males to contrast it to. And the idea that they could
> have always had scores of Chosen Ones kinda diminishes the Slayer for me,
> since before this I had figured that the Shadow Men had to strain every
> ounce of their power just to make one Slayer. It also seems to diminish
> Willow's achievement, since it implies that the Shadow Men could have done
> the same thing if they felt like it. Not a big deal though, certainly
> nowhere near as annoying as the Shadow Men in Get It Done or the Guardian
> in End of Days. And Buffy might have just been guessing that the Shadow
> Men "made up that rule" anyway.
It works better for me if you think of it as Buffy just hyperbolizing
and being all metaphorical and stuff. As you clearly already know, the
real point is that if the Universe isn't being fair, Buffy's solution
is to redefine the game. Writ large in this instance, and part of the
whole idea of her character from the moment Joss came up with his goofy
vampire horror/comedy thing.
> > Since it's the last episode, in theory anyone can die. I wasn't
> > worried about Buffy or Xander, but a full third of the main cast eats
> > it here. Anya, after one last bunny joke,
>
> As well as one last monkey reference. I feel bad when people refer to
> Anya's death (which btw was quite remarkably brutal) as pointless or
> senseless. She didn't single-handedly save the world, but she was
> fighting the good fight when she died, one little footsoldier in Buffy's
> army. And she did take out a couple of ubervamps, either one of which
> might have killed some of her friends as they fled the school. I say Anya
> went out a hero.
Fair enough. It's a semantic thing, I think, since people just want to
constrast it with the glorious sacrifices that are so rare in the
Buffyverse ("The Gift," Spike in "Chosen") with those who get killed
because that's what evil things and people do. Everyone who went into
battle with Buffy knew the risks, and some didn't survive.
> My ratings, complete with the usual modifiers and uncertainties:
We're pretty close this year, despite our different relative rankings
of the season. I think you just like the show as a whole a little more
devotedly. Or I'm more curmugeonly (sp?), etc.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> You know Buffy. Sweet girl, ... .
Oh, meant to comment on a bit of continuity porn but forgot. Although
the phrasing isn't exactly the same, that line reminds me a lot of
Angel's summary of Buffy (when he's pretending to be evil) in "School
Hard."
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Honestly, Joss forced Buffy back into the role of the star struck
> little girl with a crush on her dark knight and the only way I can get
> through that scene is to see it as Buffy kindly and finally letting go
> of Angel once and for all with no intention of ever hooking up with him
> ever again.
You're missing the whole point of the sequence, then. In EOD Buffy
sees Angel as the sixteen-year-old in her still imagines him to be; I
thought that bit was overdone, but that's clearly what they're going
for. In "Chosen" she takes a second to bask and pretend that things
are still simple, then pulls away, acutely aware that they're not.
Michael Ikeda's posts on the topic say most of what I want to say about
it. But just as a look into the mind of a B/A fan (i.e. me), I think
that summary is accurate... except for the "no intention" thing. They
have such deep feelings for each other, and the passion and trust they
developed when they were both (emotionally speaking) much younger is
something that they'll never put aside. But that same intensity has
prevented them from being able to step back and move into a more adult
relationship ("Forever" is a good example of what I'm talking about).
Although Buffy's not in a relationship with him per se, Spike's in her
heart now, and understands her in a way her previous lovers haven't.
Buffy and Angel are wrong for each other for several reasons that are
far more important than the initial Forbidden Love stuff, and it can
probably never happen. Fans and characters alike have been forced to
face that fact. But one can never quite bear to give up hope... maybe
with a little more time, they'll change enough that things will somehow
be different...
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > As well as one last monkey reference. I feel bad when people refer to
> > Anya's death (which btw was quite remarkably brutal) as pointless or
> > senseless. She didn't single-handedly save the world, but she was
> > fighting the good fight when she died, one little footsoldier in Buffy's
> > army. And she did take out a couple of ubervamps, either one of which
> > might have killed some of her friends as they fled the school. I say Anya
> > went out a hero.
>
> Fair enough. It's a semantic thing, I think, since people just want to
> constrast it with the glorious sacrifices that are so rare in the
> Buffyverse ("The Gift," Spike in "Chosen") with those who get killed
actually it was pointless after all
they were to keep turok-han from reaching sewers
however the school the sewers and everything else went down
the sinkhole that ate sunnydale
and the six of them couldve just waited in the bus
or stayed with willow to guard her
for all the good their battles did
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Would you care to make a prediction now on whether Buffy will make a
> guest appearance in the final episode or two of 'Angel'?
Hmmm. My gut feeling would be to say no, if only because I know the
actor was so anxious to move on to other things. A spinoff by the end
is often a separate world from the show that spawned it. From what
I've heard from fans of the shows, the ending of _Frasier_ didn't
scream out for _Cheers_ cameos. Someone might expect Daria to make a
minor appearance in a _Beavis And Butt-head_ revival, but the latter
two would just be out of place on the former's show. Angel was part of
BTVS for three years, so the finale wouldn't feel right without him,
whereas Buffy's only been cameo appearances and backstory for ATS, and
her story came to a satisfying ending in "Chosen."
That being said, I'm a sucker for crossovers and would love to see
Buffy appear in the inriguingly titled "Not Fade Away." It'll be the
last televised moment ever in the 'verse named after her, so I do kinda
want her to be part of it.
> >Speaking of which, there's a nice little scene between our hero and
> >her undead lover; it speaks for itself, but it's nice.
>
> But I was
> totally taken by surprise, and to me this *was* Willow's redemption.
> She's using magic as powerful as any she's ever used, with no
> hesitation... but she's using it not for personal benefit, not for
> destruction and harm, but to empower other people. A selfless and
> charitable use of magic... and we see a new side of her.
True, but that's what the situation calls for here. Sometimes it'll
call for the kind of spells that're more directly destructive, the
stuff that can make a witch go black-haired and veiny. I think she'll
be able to handle it, but this fight against herself never ends, as far
as I'm concerned.
> (To be blunt, those of you
> who've read Larry Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" will
> recognise that Superman's problem described in there is one Buffy
> never had (both Parker and Riley are still alive and intact), so
> clearly a Slayer's restraint over her superstrength is right down at
> the automatic reflex level).
Doesn't stop them from choosing to use their stength in unsavory ways,
though. The symbolism for me is muddied by the fact that only certain
kids get to be Slayers, and the normal people around them are the ones
who'll suffer for their gorwing pains and moral choices.
-AOQ
drifter
/some snippage occurs/
> And how the heck did an old man like Giles protect himself in a fight
> with Ubbies? (Oh, I know. He probably used dark magick.)
Or he's just terribly skilled with a sword. Although he was portrayed most
often, while training Buffy, as Lucille Ball in clown shoes (something that
*really* irked me), the scene where he's fencing with Wes shows his real
ability. While Wes seriously tries to break through Giles' defense, Giles
easily holds him off while READING A NEWSPAPER. Remember, Ripper is
always there just under the surface.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
drifter
/snip/
> We're pretty close this year, despite our different relative rankings
> of the season. I think you just like the show as a whole a little
> more devotedly. Or I'm more curmugeonly (sp?), etc.
So, "Arbitrar," after 7 seasons, *now* you're worried about spelling?
OK, then; you only missed a "d."
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> I've heard from fans of the shows, the ending of _Frasier_ didn't
> scream out for _Cheers_ cameos. Someone might expect Daria to make a
> minor appearance in a _Beavis And Butt-head_ revival, but the latter
i thought you didnt want angel spoilers?
haha just kidding
season three is all about the cordy-angel love child
vague disclaimer
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <l64o-1rj5-E6705...@europe.isp.giganews.com>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
> > Joss has said time and time (and time and time) again that he will
> > always place dramatic force above anal continuity.
>
> Actually, he said it once and people have repeated it time and time (and
> time and time) again.
At least twice - once in one of the S2 commentaries (can't remember
which) and again in the Chosen commentary, with added world weariness.
> > And they controlled the high ground and only exit.
>
> Not so much controlled, considering that the vampires got past them and
> into the school.
Just as well they had a second line then.
vague disclaimer
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 22: "Chosen"
> > (or "SEE YOU SPACE SLAYER")
> > Writers: Joss Whedon
> > Director: Joss Whedon
>
> You and other people have covered a lot of the plot holes pretty well,
> but there's something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I thought I'd
> bring up. Recently, in "Get It Done," using the most unsubtle metaphor
> ever, the show told us that forcing the Slayer power on a girl without
> her consent is tantamount to rape. And yet that's exactly what Buffy
> and Willow did here - they forced the Slayer power on dozens or
> hundreds or thousands of girls without their consent.
>
> So according to the show's own internal logic, Buffy and Willow are now
> rapists. Way to go, Joss. That's something I could have lived without
> seeing you do to these characters.
Gosh. Burt having a gigantic "whoosh" moment. Who'da thunk it.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161526354....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hey, that was Rot13ed. I know, I know, I just remembered you reviewed AtS:
IWRY already, but still, you are not supposed to read rot13ed stuff! :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
Actually now that I've gone ahead and unscrambled it, you used the
"Chosen" half-quote twice. The first time was in plain text, then
there was the ROT13 part.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
There is no inherently sound reason why Bangel couldn't work right from the
beginning. It was only Joyce's fiat and it was her fault. She thought she
was doing the right thing when she told commanded Angel to make the hard
choices. And the Mayor clouded Angel and Buffy's judgments.
Unfortunately, the following references to AtS will be spoilery to AoQ:
Vg znxrf ab frafr. Natry jnf abg tbbq rabhtu sbe Ohssl, ohg ur jnf tbbq
rabhtu sbe Pbeql yngre. Naq ur jnf tbbq rabhtu sbe jbysl Avan.
It's all Joyce's fault. Had she known what the viewer knows after seven
seasons of BtVS and five seasons of AtS, matching Princess Buffy with a
normal Joe won't make any sense.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"alphakitten" <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:453B5161...@netscape.net...
Buffy had always been "jittery" (for lack of a better phrase) when Angel
came to call. Remember it was mostly her fault (in my opinion) that Angel
beat Riley up badly in Season 4. I'm amazed that Spike did not have enough
jealousy to turn to the dark side upon seeing Buffy jumping into the arms of
Angel. Says a lot about how the Williamy Spike had changed.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> seasons of BtVS and five seasons of AtS, matching Princess Buffy with a
> normal Joe won't make any sense.
do you really think buffy could be happy with an immortal as a lover?
Apteryx
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>_Buffy The Vampire Slayer_, complete series
>ABOMINATION - 0
>Bad - 3
>Weak - 11
>Decent - 45
>Good - 62
>Excellent - 22
>SUPERLATIVE - 1
I get:
Bad - 4
Weak - 14
Decent - 47
Good - 62
Excellent - 12
Superlative - 5
>Ratings by season:
For me (low scores good
>S1: Mean = 3.67, 50% quality
Mean = 3.98 (Good) 75% quality
>S2: Mean = 3.55, 64% quality
Mean = 4.04 (Good) 73% quality
>S3: Mean= 3.86, 68% quality
Mean = 4.08 (Good) 77% quality
>S4: Mean= 3.5, 55% quality
Mean = 4.28 (low Good), 50% quality
>S5: Mean = 3.55, 50% quality
Mean = 4.75 (Decent), 41% quality
>S6: Mean = 3.68, 62% quality
Mean = 4.64 (high Decent), 45% quality
>S7: Mean= 3.68, 64% quality
Mean = 5.06 (Decent), 32% quality
>Complete series: Mean = 3.64, 59% quality
Mean = 4.44 (low Good), 55% quality
Which is a numerical measure of my subjective impression that the show
deteriorated significantly after the end of Whedon's fulltime
involvement (ie, from S4 onwards). Yet those later seasons included
flashes of genius, including 4 of my 6 favourite episodes - OMWF, Hush,
The Body, & Restless - all of course written by Whedon.
Apteryx
(Harmony) Watcher
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-158E5...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > It's all Joyce's fault. Had she known what the viewer knows after seven
> > seasons of BtVS and five seasons of AtS, matching Princess Buffy with a
> > normal Joe won't make any sense.
>
> do you really think buffy could be happy with an immortal as a lover?
>
"Vzzbegny" (creuncf n xvafzra bs gur Uvtuynaqre).
Anyways, happiness is not the only deciding factor.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
James Craine
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> I do think that Chosen is a tragedy, that Buffy has given the First
> exactly what it wants. Hundreds, possibly thousands of slayers all over
> the world, just ready and ripe to be corrupted by the First.
>
> My main theory ever since Buffy ended, has been that the First's plan
> was to scare Buffy, then lead her to the scythe ... all with the
> intention of scaring her into activating all the slayers.
My theory is that the Slayer line passes through one, and
only one, slayer. Then when that slayer dies the next
potential is called. But now there are no potentials,
therfore when that slayer dies there will be no new slayer
called. So now, when the last of the newly empowered slayers
dies that will be it, no new slayers. (At least for about
400 years, until that Frey person gets the job, somehow.)
Michael Ikeda
news:%2S_g.174483$5R2.110831@pd7urf3no:
Angel has always felt that he couldn't hope to give Buffy the sort
of life she deserved. What Joyce said had an impact because it
agreed with what he already felt at a deeply ingrained emotional
level.
As far a Buffy/Angel is concerned, one of the biggest problems is
that they're each in love with an idealized image of the other.
That isn't something that's going to work in the long run.
In another post I mentioned something that Lawrence Watt-Evans had
said in an essay "Matchmaking on the Hellmouth" (in the book "Seven
Seasons of Buffy"). I think I'll go ahead and quote the relevant
paragraph:
"In a way, they have each idealized their image of each other until
they can't possibly stay together successfully--Angel sees Buffy as
a creature of light who he cannot be worthy of, who he can never
give what he deserves, rather than as a flawed and human girl,
while Buffy sees Angel as an ancient, dark, and powerful figure,
recognizing nothing of the Irish ne'er-do-well Liam was, nor of
what a doofus Angel can still sometimes be."
Vapvqragnyyl, Jngg-Rinaf nethrq gung Jrfyrl jnf gur orfg pnaqvqngr
sbe n ybat-grez ebznagvp eryngvbafuvc sbe Ohssl. Abgr gung uvf
rffnl jnf jevggra orsber NgF Frnfba 5 nverq. Boivbhfyl Wbff sbhaq
gur nethzrag fb pbaivapvat gung ur unq gb xvyy bss Jrfyrl. :)
Clairel
--But why on earth would you want such a thing? Two episodes ago you
said you had become an S/B fan; now you're saying you're still a B/A
fan? I don't see how you can be both. Surely it's got to be one or
the other.
For me, the time wasted on Angel's appearance at the end of episode
7.21 and the beginning of episode 7.22 is one of the two things I don't
like about the finale (the other thing is the dialogue among the four
characters who began the series, when they go their separate ways in
the high school -- to me it all, not just Giles's "The earth is doomed"
line, seemed very forced and artificial. Joss just lost his judgment
there in that scene as far as I'm concerned). Especially, Buffy
kissing Angel was repugnant, even if it did set up circumstances for
Spike to be noble, forbearing, and focused on the Greater Good as a
champion ought to be. I accept the need to show Spike passing a test
with flying colors, but it still speaks ill of Buffy's character that
she would kiss Angel that way, at such a time.
AOQ, you stated above on this thread that after the blackout in the
basement, you thought sex between Buffy and Spike was clearly implied.
I know Joss said on the commentary that it's up to each viewer to
imagine what they wish, but my own reading of Spike's character is that
the sex just couldn't happen. Why? Because he would never want it to
happen until Buffy told him she loved him. And she never tells him
that until they're down in the Hellmouth, and then he says he doesn't
believe her. If you were right about them having had sex the night
before, that would have meant Spike was doing a Riley -- sleeping with
a woman he was sure didn't love him. Soulless Spike was willing to do
that in season 6; ensouled Spike in season 7, feeling as he did about
Buffy, just could never do that IMO.
Also, AOQ, I noticed you had nothing to say about Cassie's prophecy
(from episode 7.4) coming true: "Someday she'll tell you." In your
review of 7.4, you said you thought Cassie's words were ambiguous and
could mean just about anything. I always thought Cassie meant Buffy
would tell Spike she loved him; that's the only thing that could make
Spike look so shocked and disturbed the moment Cassie made the
prophecy. I'm surprised you had nothing to say about this, or about
whether you think Spike was right about Buffy not meaning it, or
whether you think he was being overly modest and Buffy *did* mean it.
So had you forgotten all about Cassie's prophecy, or what?
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>> it. But just as a look into the mind of a B/A fan (i.e. me), I think
>> that summary is accurate... except for the "no intention" thing. They
>> have such deep feelings for each other, and the passion and trust they
>> developed when they were both (emotionally speaking) much younger is
>> something that they'll never put aside. But that same intensity has
>> prevented them from being able to step back and move into a more adult
>> relationship ("Forever" is a good example of what I'm talking about).
>> Although Buffy's not in a relationship with him per se, Spike's in her
>> heart now, and understands her in a way her previous lovers haven't.
>> Buffy and Angel are wrong for each other for several reasons that are
>> far more important than the initial Forbidden Love stuff, and it can
>> probably never happen. Fans and characters alike have been forced to
>> face that fact. But one can never quite bear to give up hope... maybe
>> with a little more time, they'll change enough that things will somehow
>> be different...
>
> --But why on earth would you want such a thing? Two episodes ago you
> said you had become an S/B fan; now you're saying you're still a B/A
> fan? I don't see how you can be both. Surely it's got to be one or
> the other.
>
Why on earth would that follow? The relationships, and the stories are
*different*, but unless one's universe centers around Spike to the
exclusion of every other character, there's no reason why they should be
mutually exclusive. Would you suggest that anyone who was a fan of
Willow/Oz could not possibly also be a fan of Willow/Tara? While that
may be true of *some* people with specific fixations, it's by no means a
logical conclusion (personally, I liked Willow/Tara the best of Willow's
relationships, but I also liked Willow/Oz *and* Willow/Kennedy. They're
different, but that's kinda the point.)
> For me, the time wasted on Angel's appearance at the end of episode
> 7.21 and the beginning of episode 7.22 is one of the two things I don't
> like about the finale (the other thing is the dialogue among the four
> characters who began the series, when they go their separate ways in
> the high school -- to me it all, not just Giles's "The earth is doomed"
> line, seemed very forced and artificial. Joss just lost his judgment
> there in that scene as far as I'm concerned). Especially, Buffy
> kissing Angel was repugnant, even if it did set up circumstances for
> Spike to be noble, forbearing, and focused on the Greater Good as a
> champion ought to be. I accept the need to show Spike passing a test
> with flying colors, but it still speaks ill of Buffy's character that
> she would kiss Angel that way, at such a time.
Or not, if one happens *not* to think that the Buffyverse *must* revolve
around Spuffy...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Mel
How do you figure that? She didn't even know Angel was in town until
afterwards. I put more fault in Riley for being jealous (for no reason)
and trying to take it out on Angel who conveniently showed up.
Mel
Jeff Jacoby
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote in
[snip]
>> There is no inherently sound reason why Bangel couldn't work
>> right from the beginning. It was only Joyce's fiat and it was
>> her fault. She thought she was doing the right thing when she
>> told commanded Angel to make the hard choices.
>
> Angel has always felt that he couldn't hope to give Buffy the sort
> of life she deserved. What Joyce said had an impact because it
> agreed with what he already felt at a deeply ingrained emotional
> level.
I really don't see that. Up until the Mayor's spiel, what can
you point to, actions or dialog, that show Angel doesn't believe
they can be together somehow?
> As far a Buffy/Angel is concerned, one of the biggest problems is
> that they're each in love with an idealized image of the other.
> That isn't something that's going to work in the long run.
Agreed. And as AoQ (or somebody) pointed out, the way she
steps back from him after the kiss is her acknowledgment of
that. They've grown up a lot (or at least changed a lot).
Maybe the people they are now, or the people they might be in
the future, could work. Maybe not, even probably not. But
despite their ups and downs I don't think there's anything in
the show(s) that completely shuts the door on them.
> In another post I mentioned something that Lawrence Watt-Evans had
> said in an essay "Matchmaking on the Hellmouth" (in the book "Seven
> Seasons of Buffy"). I think I'll go ahead and quote the relevant
> paragraph:
>
> "In a way, they have each idealized their image of each other until
> they can't possibly stay together successfully--Angel sees Buffy as
> a creature of light who he cannot be worthy of, who he can never
> give what he deserves, rather than as a flawed and human girl,
> while Buffy sees Angel as an ancient, dark, and powerful figure,
> recognizing nothing of the Irish ne'er-do-well Liam was, nor of
> what a doofus Angel can still sometimes be."
>
> Vapvqragnyyl, Jngg-Rinaf nethrq gung Jrfyrl jnf gur orfg pnaqvqngr
> sbe n ybat-grez ebznagvp eryngvbafuvc sbe Ohssl. Abgr gung uvf
> rffnl jnf jevggra orsber NgF Frnfba 5 nverq. Boivbhfyl Wbff sbhaq
> gur nethzrag fb pbaivapvat gung ur unq gb xvyy bss Jrfyrl. :)
Now that's just bizarre!
Jeff
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Four letters summarize it: IWRY
[snip]
> It's all Joyce's fault.
Those statements seem to contradict each other. The thing I like so
much about IWRY is that it strips away the various artificial
obstacles, including parental involvement, and still convincingly shows
why having two Buffverse shows is the better option for everyone
involved.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Michael Ikeda's posts on the topic say most of what I want to say about
> > it. But just as a look into the mind of a B/A fan (i.e. me), I think
> > that summary is accurate... except for the "no intention" thing. They
> > have such deep feelings for each other, and the passion and trust they
> > developed when they were both (emotionally speaking) much younger is
> > something that they'll never put aside. But that same intensity has
> > prevented them from being able to step back and move into a more adult
> > relationship ("Forever" is a good example of what I'm talking about).
> > Although Buffy's not in a relationship with him per se, Spike's in her
> > heart now, and understands her in a way her previous lovers haven't.
> > Buffy and Angel are wrong for each other for several reasons that are
> > far more important than the initial Forbidden Love stuff, and it can
> > probably never happen. Fans and characters alike have been forced to
> > face that fact. But one can never quite bear to give up hope... maybe
> > with a little more time, they'll change enough that things will somehow
> > be different...
>
> --But why on earth would you want such a thing? Two episodes ago you
> said you had become an S/B fan; now you're saying you're still a B/A
> fan? I don't see how you can be both. Surely it's got to be one or
> the other.
Absolutely wrong. You seem to not be able to fathom that for some
reason, since this has come up before. I, and I'd assume most fans,
see worthwhile things (and problems) in multiple relationships. I
don't believe that TV characters (or actual people) have one and only
one "right" person to hook up with. And I don't have any interest in
becomng the kind of fan who'll only accept the pairing he's
particularly attached to.
A question I posed for you awhile ago that you never responded to:
>> Is it really all the same to you who Buffy's with? Me, I
>> can't watch scenes with her and Angel, or her and Riley, without
>> getting physically nauseous.
Turning the questioning around, is that because of a particular problem
with the way those interactions play out, or have you decided in
advance, so to speak, that they're Not Right for Buffy? If the latter,
does that prevent you from appreciating the good scenes that came out
of these relationships (not very many in the case of Riley, admittedly,
but they're there if you're "receptive" enough)?
> Especially, Buffy
> kissing Angel was repugnant, even if it did set up circumstances for
> Spike to be noble, forbearing, and focused on the Greater Good as a
> champion ought to be. I accept the need to show Spike passing a test
> with flying colors, but it still speaks ill of Buffy's character that
> she would kiss Angel that way, at such a time.
I see no ill-speaking.
> Also, AOQ, I noticed you had nothing to say about Cassie's prophecy
> (from episode 7.4) coming true: "Someday she'll tell you." In your
> review of 7.4, you said you thought Cassie's words were ambiguous and
> could mean just about anything. I always thought Cassie meant Buffy
> would tell Spike she loved him; that's the only thing that could make
> Spike look so shocked and disturbed the moment Cassie made the
> prophecy. I'm surprised you had nothing to say about this, or about
> whether you think Spike was right about Buffy not meaning it, or
> whether you think he was being overly modest and Buffy *did* mean it.
Yeah, didn't think a whole lot about that. S7 was full of prophecies,
some direct and some more oblique.
-AOQ