A Second Look: BTVS S2D3
Arbitrar Of Quality
cross-posted to a.t.a. from now on, if only because Google is
statistically less likely to screw up message listings for both
newsgroups at once.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 9: "What's My Line (Part I)"
Writers: Howard Gordon and Marti Noxon
Director: David Solomon
A great credited debut for Marti, this one has improved for me (and I
always liked it). It's one of those episodes that stands out more for
how it feels than for what happens. Some solid character moments all
around, some intensity from Spike and Dru in the face of a writer-
admitted McGuffin, and some strong B/A romantic moments that capture
the essence of young lust. I'm struck even more this time by (even
though I'm still not convinced that it "should" be as big a deal as
all that) how David Solomon's direction, with loads of acting help
from our star, sells the viewer so well on how distraught Buffy is in
the face of this new life-swallowing danger. The plotting does have a
few nice touches though - the fake-out concerning Kendra is really
clever, and there's an ending that re-casts everything and keeps one
guessing.... Just what a Part I is supposed to do. Oh, on second
viewing, I was rather tickled by the scene where Buffy is wandering
through the halls in a state of panic, seeing Taraka assasins around
every corner... and one of the people she walks past is Weapons Lady
from Part II. For those keeping track of the pre-"Innocence" buildup
(and allegory about growing up, if you want to read it that way),
Buffy's felt the need to, while accepting her calling as the Slayer,
downplay this thing that gets her all killed and stuff as just a job,
not something that's central to her Buffy-ness. It's something she
does because she has to, like going to school. Which brings us to
WML.
Rating: Excellent (up from Good)
Season Two, Episode 10: "What's My Line (Part II)"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Semel
For a long time I referred to the ill-conceived and atrociously staged
and acted Xander/Cordelia closet scene as "The Scene That Should Not
Be." I eventually found I sequence that I hate even more intensely
(here's a hint: it comes early-ish in Season Four and appears to spawn
a really long argument every time it's brought up), but the closet
still stands out as about the nadir for me of BTVS getting too serious
about not taking itself seriously (engaging in farce with its main
characters, and so on). As for the rest of WML2, it's pretty good,
although it doesn't have a whole lot of depth (wears its moral on its
sleeve, really) or the raw power of Part I. Some cheap-looking but
energetic fight sequences, and some enjoyable buddy-movie exchanges
between Buffy and Kendra; I'm fond of Kendra, and think she livened
things up. Slayers generally have that effect on me (prior to S7,
anyway).
Rating: Good
Season Two, Episode 11: "Ted"
Writers: David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
Director: Bruce Seth Green
"Ted" seems to be a love or hate episode for most, and I'm firmly in
the former category, ranking it as pretty clearly my favorite of the
season pre-"Innocence." This was also an episode where my brother
said he'd want to keep watching the series if it stayed this good
("Innocence" and aftermath were what finally won him over, BTW). I
never get tired of that turnaround - Ted is such a loathsome
individual, and a threat totally unlike anything Buffy's dealt with
before, so I'm completely with her in the thrill she gets when Ted
hits her, and thus turns into just another thing that she can pound
the shit out of... until he takes that fall... Brilliant stuff. After
that, the rest of the episode could be total garbage and I probably
wouldn't care much. It's not, though. Even with the pseudo cop-out,
the issues stay raised, robot Ted is still a villain worth really
really hating, and the dialogue includes some of my favorite lines of
the series (mostly from Giles). Re-reading the thread for the
original review is interesting, for Don's non-supernatural rewrite,
although it would get rid of Joss's favorite act break, and for OBS's
argument about why the actual ending fits the BTVS story better.
Rating: Excellent
Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Greenwalt
Zzzzzz... and here's BTVS at its most worthless. I think I'm obligated
to throw in a mention of Buffy's last defense mechanism against the
traumatic experience of PG, which is throwing herself into this oh-so-
deep-and-romantically-doomed love with Angel; this, of course, doesn't
bode well. Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
character I could appreciate. (Actually, I think "Witch," "Prophecy
Girl" and the bit with Hank in WSWB are the only times she ever came
close to working for me.) Okay, I don't feel like talking about BE
and its idiot plot anymore. It's not the worst episode of the series,
but other than maybe "Him," I can't think of one so totally devoid of
anything that would interest me in watching it.
Rating: Bad
General comments on S2D3: None, really. I think it's vaguely
interesting that WML2 plays as if it were the last episode before
winter hiatus, even though it isn't.
Thoughts?
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1180502490.2...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
You know, I never much cared about the growing up allegory. I went more for
the personal stories of these characters. But the buildup applies to that
just as much. There's a lot of setup going on in S2. In this last watching
I'm especially conscious of the repetition of the notion that people aren't
who they seem to be. In this week's (and next's) flavor of that theme we
have three unknown assassins who could be anybody - with the added spice of
another slayer mixed in to make it all that much harder to tell the good
from the bad.
Quietly related to that, I believe, is something else that's been repeated a
lot this season - Buffy being rescued by her friends. In this episode it's
Angel who steps in to save her from her imminent demise. Next episode it'll
be Kendra interrupting the firing of a gun at Buffy. Variations on the
theme have played out in Some Assembly Required, School Hard & Halloween
too. Buffy's been getting a lot of help this year - though it may not feel
that way to her.
Don rightly pointed out that I can't know that Buffy would have died in
School Hard without Joyce's aid. But I can't know she would have lived
either. The only "reality" available is the one where Joyce stepped in with
a fire axe. What we can know is that the depiction was of a Buffy in
immediate peril until friends and family come to the rescue - a scenario
repeatedly played out the first half of the season.
That makes perfect sense for supporting the general theme that Buffy is a
special slayer - a stronger one - because of her friends. Their backup
allows her to achieve more than the other slayers. Without them she'd still
be dead in that puddle in the Master's lair. Xander breathing life into her
then was the great symbolic moment of the series expressing her dependence
on them. Her life is literally drawn from their life. We've continued that
example repeatedly since - almost to the point of it seeming routine. It
almost seems like over kill. (Or perhaps that should be under kill, for one
thinks Buffy would have died a few times now without help.)
I think when you combine it with this season's theme of people not being who
they seem to be it becomes clearer. That latter theme soon enough develops
into not being able to trust and/or depend on people - even those closest to
you. Eventually Buffy won't have them to help her, and you get the great
season closing of Buffy on her own - first in battle - then in life.
There are a whole lot of interesting things about that message of ultimately
being alone - a message that flat out contradicts the family message so
often emphasized at other times. One of them is what it says about Buffy's
ability as a slayer. Frankly, she's not very good at it at this point. Not
compared to what we will see in later seasons. Right now she really does
seem terribly dependent on others saving her butt. In the next episode,
Kendra will take the usual Watcher attitude that friends and emotions and so
on are the problem. There's much that Kendra doesn't understand, but she
still has a point. Their help can prevent Buffy from being strong on her
own.
The slayer trap has so many terrible levels. One of them is the point we
reach this year where success means sacrificing who you love the most. All
the help she's been getting so far is just setting Buffy up for the
inevitable great battle alone.
> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)
I wrote the above tangentially related bit partly because of how I see this
episode helping to set up the season conclusion, but mostly because I'm not
much of a fan of this episode. It does do its job of setting up some nice
complexities to be unraveled next episode. And it does have a variety of
very nice moments. (On the understated side, I'm very fond of Giles and
Buffy's walk through the cemetery when he suggests that Buffy consider law
enforcement as a skill. The look on her face is priceless - as is the
gesture for Giles to look at the crypt they've come upon.) However, it's a
very draggy episode for me. And it'll have to wait until Part II for most
things to much matter to me.
Props for the wonderful cliff hanger, however.
I'd only rate it Decent
> Season Two, Episode 10: "What's My Line (Part II)"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Semel
>
> For a long time I referred to the ill-conceived and atrociously staged
> and acted Xander/Cordelia closet scene as "The Scene That Should Not
> Be." I eventually found I sequence that I hate even more intensely
> (here's a hint: it comes early-ish in Season Four and appears to spawn
> a really long argument every time it's brought up),
I think Spike and Willow could have had a brilliantly co-dependent
relationship to shame all co-dependent relationships and I'll always think
it a shame they never had a go at it.
> but the closet
> still stands out as about the nadir for me of BTVS getting too serious
> about not taking itself seriously (engaging in farce with its main
> characters, and so on).
<shrug> I still like it.
> As for the rest of WML2, it's pretty good,
> although it doesn't have a whole lot of depth (wears its moral on its
> sleeve, really) or the raw power of Part I. Some cheap-looking but
> energetic fight sequences, and some enjoyable buddy-movie exchanges
> between Buffy and Kendra; I'm fond of Kendra, and think she livened
> things up. Slayers generally have that effect on me (prior to S7,
> anyway).
I love how foreshadowy the conversation with Kendra about Angel is.
Buffy: Look, you saw me with Angel, and he is a vampire, but he's good.
Kendra: Angel? You mean Angelus? I've read about him. He is a monster.
Giles: No, no, no, he's, he's good now.
Willow: (smiles) Really!
Buffy: He had a gypsy curse.
Kendra: He has a what?
Buffy: Y'know what, just trust me on this one, okay? He's on the home team
now.
Kendra: I cannot believe you. He looked to me just like anodder animal when
I...
And then the wonderful Dru moment when she first speaks to Angel.
Drusilla: You've been a very bad daddy.
Spekaing of Drusilla, note how Kendra (and everybody else really) focuses on
the imminent rise of Drusilla as the terrible event whose portents caused
Kendra's watcher to send her to Sunnydale. With the wonderful closing shot
of the cured Drusilla carrying Spike out of the wreckage of the church, the
suggestion is quite strong that a major power has risen. It's nice support
for my oft ridiculed theory that Drusilla is the true big bad of S2.
> Rating: Good
Part II works a lot better for me than Part I does. I really like Kendra
and the fresh look at how a slayer might be. And I really like putting
Angel, Spike & Dru together. Of course that's influenced by what we'll see
all the way through AtS S5, but I'm not complaining about the start. The
episode's closing fight flags a bit with some less than stellar staging -
such as the bug stomping, wimpy fire, and not so spectacular organ collapse.
Net effect is a Good for me.
> Season Two, Episode 11: "Ted"
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> "Ted" seems to be a love or hate episode for most, and I'm firmly in
> the former category, ranking it as pretty clearly my favorite of the
> season pre-"Innocence." This was also an episode where my brother
> said he'd want to keep watching the series if it stayed this good
> ("Innocence" and aftermath were what finally won him over, BTW). I
> never get tired of that turnaround - Ted is such a loathsome
> individual, and a threat totally unlike anything Buffy's dealt with
> before, so I'm completely with her in the thrill she gets when Ted
> hits her, and thus turns into just another thing that she can pound
> the shit out of... until he takes that fall... Brilliant stuff. After
> that, the rest of the episode could be total garbage and I probably
> wouldn't care much. It's not, though. Even with the pseudo cop-out,
> the issues stay raised, robot Ted is still a villain worth really
> really hating, and the dialogue includes some of my favorite lines of
> the series (mostly from Giles). Re-reading the thread for the
> original review is interesting, for Don's non-supernatural rewrite,
> although it would get rid of Joss's favorite act break, and for OBS's
> argument about why the actual ending fits the BTVS story better.
That was one of the better discussion threads I think. It's also where I
got a copy of the ASCII layout of the Summers house.
I won't repeat the argument I made in the earlier review - though I think
it's accurate. But I'll add that Ted isn't just a stand alone episode.
It's also intended to support the setup for the big Angelus story to come.
Ted isn't the great emotional and moral challenge for Buffy this season.
Angelus is.
There are a number of ways that Ted supports what's to come - such as its
role in establishing the binds and the tensions between Buffy and Joyce that
help make the ultimate break-up between them all that more traumatic.
But I think the biggest one is how the dilemma created in Buffy's mind
surrounding Ted's "death" feeds the much greater dilemma she'll face with
Angelus. The experience Buffy has with Ted demonstrates that slayer
decisions aren't necessarily easy or obvious. It's all too easy to kill
someone who doesn't deserve death. That presumably adds to giving Buffy
pause facing Angelus. Sure, there's the bias of her Angel love, but much of
that is also drawn from the knowledge of the decent and good creature that
could reside in him. One that shouldn't die. With Ted we see from Buffy's
reaction that her heart rebels against a wrongful death no matter the
excuse.
But the real complication is that Buffy's instincts said that Ted was all
wrong from the beginning. Her instincts (presumably slayer instincts)
proved correct. (You need robot Ted for this to be shown.) It's not so
simple as acting responsibly or letting go of her hubris or whatever other
lesson you might want to draw from Ted. People aren't what they seem to be
on multiple levels and conventional wisdom can steer you wrong.
That might suggest that killing Angelus is therefore the easier choice,
except that Buffy's instincts *aren't* telling her that.
Ted, the person/robot, doesn't really matter to Buffy. He did serve well to
shock Buffy with the true implications of her life and death dealing
abilities, but there is no personal emotional resonance regarding him. Ted
was a kind of dress rehearsal for the real deal. In the end she kills Ted,
who truly deserves it. Then she comes back and kills (so Buffy thinks)
Angel. And it devastates her.
Ted is the introduction to a theme of moral ambiguity around Buffy's death
dealing abilities and morally ambiguous choices that will be played out in
several ways through the series. Besides Angelus this season, we have
rather prominent to kill or not to kill decisions surrounding Faith, Dawn
and Spike to come. We also have a couple innocent deaths to come. Another
reason that Ted needs to be a robot in the end is that this is so not the
time or character to attempt to resolve the issue. The answer could never
be so pat as whatever might be done this episode. Ted's just the beginning.
> Rating: Excellent
I've already commented many times how the human Ted is so creepy and
disturbing to me that I find the early parts of the episode difficult to
watch. Watching him manipulate Joyce and alienate her from Buffy strikes me
as too real for me to handle watching comfortably. So I can never love this
episode. I do respect it though and am happy to give it a Good rating with
the suspicion that more objectively it likely deserves more.
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
> Zzzzzz... and here's BTVS at its most worthless. I think I'm obligated
> to throw in a mention of Buffy's last defense mechanism against the
> traumatic experience of PG, which is throwing herself into this oh-so-
> deep-and-romantically-doomed love with Angel; this, of course, doesn't
> bode well. Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
> cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
> character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
> week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
> character I could appreciate. (Actually, I think "Witch," "Prophecy
> Girl" and the bit with Hank in WSWB are the only times she ever came
> close to working for me.) Okay, I don't feel like talking about BE
> and its idiot plot anymore. It's not the worst episode of the series,
> but other than maybe "Him," I can't think of one so totally devoid of
> anything that would interest me in watching it.
> Rating: Bad
I think I'll repost my original response to this.
- For me this is the worst episode in the whole series. The only thing I
like
- about it is Cordelia - which is rather wasted on you I fear. ;-)
-
- Of course that means everything looks up from here.
There are two episodes near the end of S7 that I dislike more, but that's
largely an emotional response to content. While I also have some issues
with their construction, they're not as bad as this.
Even so, there's enough entertaining moments to allow the episode to hang
onto a Weak rating. There are no BtVS episodes that garner an outright Bad
reaction from me. I don't actively hate watching this episode.
Side note - this has my personal vote for worst monster depiction on BtVS.
The mommy monster is extraordinarily lame. A good case could be made for
Doublemeat having the stupidest looking monster, but it's so ridiculous that
at least you can laugh at it. Not so this one. Incidentally, does making
this week's monster a mommy monster mean that it's a metaphor for Joyce's
hold on Buffy? God, I hope not. That would make this episode even lamer.
>
>
> General comments on S2D3: None, really. I think it's vaguely
> interesting that WML2 plays as if it were the last episode before
> winter hiatus, even though it isn't.
>
>
> Thoughts?
We've come to a turning point in the season. (Well, Surprise isn't actually
all that special, but it's still a turning point.) An opportunity to say
that the first 12 episodes of S2 (matching the total of S1) is overall the
worst stretch of BtVS for its entire run. Much weaker to my mind than S1.
There's only one episode (the first) that earns an Excellent from me.
Indeed, on an episode by episode basis, S2 really should rank as the worst
season over all. It's just that the handful of extraordinary notes that
will be hit in the second half of the season, and the way it transforms the
whole feel of the series gives S2 an unforgettable aura no other season can
match. It's a paradox. Anyway - see you at the next recap.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1180502490.2...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Well, its all pretty good, especially with Buffy/Angel heating up, but I
would only go as far as Good. It's my 63rd favourite BtVS episode, 12th best
in season 2. I don't know how that compares to last year (although I don't
think my rating has changed much), because although I remember reading your
original reviews of both WML episodes, and thought I replied to them,
Google Groups disagrees. Either Google ate my posts, or I abandoned them
before posting.
>Season Two, Episode 10: "What's My Line (Part II)"
>Writer: Marti Noxon
>Director: David Semel
>
>For a long time I referred to the ill-conceived and atrociously staged
>and acted Xander/Cordelia closet scene as "The Scene That Should Not
> Be."
Ah, out of the closet at last. To Tristan and Isolde, Romeo and Juliet, Bush
and Blair, BtVS adds Xander and Cordy, together at last.
> I eventually found I sequence that I hate even more intensely
> (here's a hint: it comes early-ish in Season Four and appears to spawn
> a really long argument every time it's brought up), but the closet
> still stands out as about the nadir for me of BTVS getting too serious
> about not taking itself seriously (engaging in farce with its main
> characters, and so on).
Not getting serious about taking itself seriously leads to taking itself
seriously, taking itself seriously leads to pretentiousness, pretentiousness
leads to Anne Rice.
> As for the rest of WML2, it's pretty good,
> although it doesn't have a whole lot of depth (wears its moral on its
> sleeve, really) or the raw power of Part I. Some cheap-looking but
> energetic fight sequences, and some enjoyable buddy-movie exchanges
> between Buffy and Kendra; I'm fond of Kendra, and think she livened
> things up. Slayers generally have that effect on me (prior to S7,
> anyway).
> Rating: Good
Good for me too. Apart from Xander/Cordy, the contest between Kendra and
Buffy, and Buffy's discomfort at finding that she's not as much of a
Watcher's Slayer as Kendra is the highlight of the episode. It's my 58th
favourite BtVS episode, 10th best in season 2
> Season Two, Episode 11: "Ted"
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> "Ted" seems to be a love or hate episode for most, and I'm firmly in
As with a lot of things that "everybody" either loves or hates, I don't feel
either about "Ted". It's just a pretty good episode. It seems mostly filler,
although there's plenty of good stuff going on as Buffy feels under attack
even in her own home. OTOH in the context of the series as a whole, it is
hard to overlook that Joyce is put in a the same group as Warren and Spike,
and in fact is the dumbest of the three, as she does not even realise that
her lover is a robot.
> the former category, ranking it as pretty clearly my favorite of the
> season pre-"Innocence." This was also an episode where my brother
> said he'd want to keep watching the series if it stayed this good
> ("Innocence" and aftermath were what finally won him over, BTW). I
> never get tired of that turnaround - Ted is such a loathsome
> individual, and a threat totally unlike anything Buffy's dealt with
> before, so I'm completely with her in the thrill she gets when Ted
> hits her, and thus turns into just another thing that she can pound
> the shit out of... until he takes that fall... Brilliant stuff. After
> that, the rest of the episode could be total garbage and I probably
> wouldn't care much. It's not, though. Even with the pseudo cop-out,
> the issues stay raised, robot Ted is still a villain worth really
> really hating, and the dialogue includes some of my favorite lines of
> the series (mostly from Giles). Re-reading the thread for the
> original review is interesting, for Don's non-supernatural rewrite,
> although it would get rid of Joss's favorite act break, and for OBS's
> argument about why the actual ending fits the BTVS story better.
> Rating: Excellent
Good for me. It is my 77th favourite BtVS episode, 16th best in season 2
(last year was 76th and 16th).
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
> Zzzzzz... and here's BTVS at its most worthless. I think I'm obligated
> to throw in a mention of Buffy's last defense mechanism against the
> traumatic experience of PG, which is throwing herself into this oh-so-
> deep-and-romantically-doomed love with Angel; this, of course, doesn't
> bode well. Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
> cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
> character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
> week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
> character I could appreciate. (Actually, I think "Witch," "Prophecy
> Girl" and the bit with Hank in WSWB are the only times she ever came
> close to working for me.) Okay, I don't feel like talking about BE
> and its idiot plot anymore. It's not the worst episode of the series,
> but other than maybe "Him," I can't think of one so totally devoid of
> anything that would interest me in watching it.
> Rating: Bad
A popular view, but I still think its a little unfair. Sure, the whole
Bezoar thing is not to be taken seriously, and ratty Joyce at the end is
painful, but it still has fun with Cordy's lesson on the dangers of teenage
sex and the first ever example of a smart vampire - "Alright, it's over".
Plus, Buffy dealing with most of the people she most relies on turning
against her - premonitiony much? I'd call it Decent. It is now my 114th
favourite BtVS episode, 20th best in season 2 (a year ago was 96th and
18th).
--
Apteryx
William George Ferguson
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
Well, an argument could be made that the surviving vamps at the end of the
Harvest were the first example of smart vampires, but they had just had a
very strong object lesson to help their decision making process. My own
pick for 'first example of a smart vampire' would be Sheila in School Hard.
She's a brand new vamp, doesn't have the background, and when Buffy stops
the axe, she looks at her and it, then takes off at top speed in the other
direction. A very fast, and very accurate, assessment of the situation and
her options.
--
You've reached the Tittles. We can't come to the phone right now
If you want to leave a message for Christine, Press 1
For Bentley, Press 2
Or to speak to, or worship, Master Tarfall, Underlord of Pain, Press 3
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free. BTW, they're getting
> cross-posted to a.t.a. from now on, if only because Google is
> statistically less likely to screw up message listings for both
> newsgroups at once.
.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 9: "What's My Line (Part I)"
> Writers: Howard Gordon and Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
What's My Line I and II are pretty good, but I feel like they're somewhat
overrated. There's some good stuff in both episodes, and no really
crippling flaws, but to me both halves feel like they're trying to be more
significant than they actually manage. I think the very fact that it's a
two-parter makes me feel like it's overreaching itself, since two-parters
are usually Big Deals -- all the others were season openers and finales
(or semi-finales in the case of S4), major turning points, or guest
appearances by Eliza Dushku.
> the essence of young lust. I'm struck even more this time by (even
> though I'm still not convinced that it "should" be as big a deal as
> all that) how David Solomon's direction, with loads of acting help
> from our star, sells the viewer so well on how distraught Buffy is in
> the face of this new life-swallowing danger.
SMG is great here, and ASH ain't bad either. But one problem I have with
the episode is that the Order of Taraka just don't feel any more scary
than the usual MOTW. (And of course the most interesting-looking one
turns out to not be part of the Order after all.) I understand that the
real threat is that the Order will never stop trying until Buffy's dead,
but that just doesn't work at building tension as long as the assassins
that we see are less than overwhelming in power. Maybe it would have
worked better for me if there had been more attacks, to emphasize the
never-stopping part. I dunno. But like I said, both actors do a great
job of selling their worry. I like it that Giles accidentally makes Buffy
even more frightened than he meant to. In a lot of ways Buffy is still a
kid, and it's extremely upsetting for kids to see their "parents"
frightened.
I really enjoy the tension that career week adds to Buffy and Giles's
relationship, the forward movement on the Buffy-Angel front (especially
the kiss at the ice rink), one of my Buffy favorite quotes ("Note to self:
religion -- freaky"), and the introduction of Kendra. Oh, and we also get
the introduction of recurring elements like Willie the Snitch, the phrase
"Scooby Gang," and my personal favorite, Mr. Gordo! (Alas, he never
really gets as much screen time as that unnamed stuffed cow.)
Sometimes people comment that Buffy's interest in Dorothy Hammill seems
unlikely, given that Buffy wasn't born until five years after Hammill
became famous. This is easy to explain away: there must have been all
sorts of books and TV shows about Hammill after the 1976 Olympics, and
Buffy could easily have encountered one at an impressionable age.
Us Willow-lovers take comfort in knowing that while she later becomes a
junkie, kills a man (or at least thinks she does), and tries to destroy
the world, at least she never goes to work for Microsoft.
> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)
I'd stick with Good.
> Season Two, Episode 10: "What's My Line (Part II)"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Semel
.
> For a long time I referred to the ill-conceived and atrociously staged
> and acted Xander/Cordelia closet scene as "The Scene That Should Not
> Be." I eventually found I sequence that I hate even more intensely
> (here's a hint: it comes early-ish in Season Four and appears to spawn
> a really long argument every time it's brought up), but the closet
The scene actually takes place in Buffy's basement. I understand that you
would have preferred this relationship to stay in the closet, though.
And a lot of Xander-Cordy smoochies in the next few episodes do indeed
take place in closets at school.... Anyway, what can I say, I find it
amusing. It could be that the Xander-Cordy relationship was deliberately
made as jokey as possible (at least from now until Innocence) as a
counterweight to the more serious drama of Buffy-Angel.
WML2 is most memorable for Kendra, and I do like her, but I don't think
nearly enough was done with her. The contrast between her emotionless
singlemindedness and Buffy's pro-emotion, pro-social-life approach was
much too simplistic. The scene where Buffy provokes her to anger and then
says "See? Emotion" felt like the big character moment from a half-hour
sitcom. I would have liked a longer, more extensive and less one-sided
look at Kendra's way of doing things and a more gradual conversion of her
to Buffy's way. In the end, we only get to know Kendra just enough for it
to hurt when she's killed in Becoming I.
Being an irritable sort of person, I'm always really irritated by the
mention of the Slayer's Handbook. Forget the apparent contradiction of
Giles saying in NKABOTFD that he didn't have a manual, as well as the
improbable idea that Buffy never even heard of it from *either* of her
Watchers or any research material that the gang has gone through. What
really annoys me is that it simply does not feel *right* for the mythos.
Slayerdom is an occult, mysterious, indeed mystical thing, and having a
printed handbook for it is as jarringly out of place as a sex scene in a
Care Bears movie. It doesn't matter whether you assume that it's a good
handbook, or a stupid Watchers' Council tradition that Buffy is well rid
of, I have the same reaction either way. (BTW, we learn of another
Watcher, but the WC itself still hasn't been mentioned yet.) But what
saves this part for me is that the script immediately pokes fun at the
whole idea by having Willow ask if there's a t-shirt too.
I was a little disappointed by the ease with which Xander and Cordelia
kill the bug man. It would have been neat to see the bugs trying to form
together, maybe assembling a few body parts that try to fight back, as
Xander and Cordy stomp on them. That probably would have been beyond
BTVS's budget, though.
> Rating: Good
I'd say Good too.
> Season Two, Episode 11: "Ted"
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
.
> "Ted" seems to be a love or hate episode for most, and I'm firmly in
> the former category, ranking it as pretty clearly my favorite of the
> season pre-"Innocence."
I'm in neither camp. Looking back on it now, I'd say Ted is a good
episode, but I don't think I've ever cared about it enough to love it or
hate it.
Like OBS, I'm too creeped out by the first half of the episode, when Ted
manipulates Joyce and turns her against Buffy, to enjoy watching it.
That doesn't count against the quality of the episode, but the extreme
ease with which Ted manipulates people (even when the drugged food is
taken into account) does. I wonder what would have happened if Buffy had
given in and ate a mini-pizza, just to be polite? ... But of course the
heart of the episode isn't Ted's plot, it's his "death" and the aftermath.
Here I agree with AOQ -- this part shines. It actually gets a lot of its
power from the hard-to-watch creepiness of the first half, which drove
Buffy to hate Ted. If she hadn't hated him, she could have accepted his
death as a genuine accident; but since she did, she has to suspect herself
of hitting Ted harder than she needed to, making his death not just an
accident but an abuse of her powers and something close to murder.
A small detail I loved was the understated way Ted's earlier victims were
found. All we see is the grim look on Xander's face, and all we here is
his one-line explanation as they're on their way out. This is far more
effective than actually showing us the skeletons in Ted's closet would
have been.
> Re-reading the thread for the
> original review is interesting, for Don's non-supernatural rewrite,
> although it would get rid of Joss's favorite act break, and for OBS's
> argument about why the actual ending fits the BTVS story better.
I checked the original thread out this morning. (Which I think I'll do
for all these threads, which I suspect will take the place of those
"revisiting AOQ" threads Apteryx started for season 1.) While I'm not
really bothered by the robot "cop out," I think Don's idea would have made
for a *great* episode. However, I'm also sympathetic to the view that it
would have made Ted a little too important, when the *really* important
stuff is coming up in Surprise/Innocence, Passion and the Becomings.
Would killing Angel in Becoming still have had the same impact if Buffy
had already killed a real person in Ted? Well, yeah, probably. It'd be
pretty hard to diminish that. Still, it was probably best not to take any
chances.
Unlike a lot of people, I don't recall ever having a problem with John
Ritter as Ted. Well, the first time I saw Ted, I might have kept thinking
"Heh. Three's Company" for the first few minutes, but after that I was
over it.
> Rating: Excellent
I'd only go to Good, but I think you've convinced me to make it a higher
Good than I would have given it before.
> Season Two, Episode 12: "Bad Eggs"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
Okay, so Bad Eggs is ... not good. But I think there are enough redeeming
moments (mostly outside of the main plot) to make it watchable, and the
episode as a whole beats Teacher's Pet and IRYJ, at least, as cheesy fun.
I wouldn't call it a "guilty pleasure," but "non-hate with only a little
guilt" might fit.
From the original review:
> At school, everyone gets an egg to care for as if it's a baby. Ever
> notice how this particular hackneyed assignment is given in every TV
> high school and no real-life high schools?
We did it at my high school. However, we each got an individual egg,
rather than having to choose egg-rearing partners. I'm not sure if that
was to teach us the difficulty of single parenthood, or just to avoid
conflict between partners when someone broke an egg.
> Zzzzzz... and here's BTVS at its most worthless. I think I'm obligated
> to throw in a mention of Buffy's last defense mechanism against the
> traumatic experience of PG, which is throwing herself into this oh-so-
> deep-and-romantically-doomed love with Angel; this, of course, doesn't
> bode well.
Bode well for the character, or for the show? Buffy's line "When I think
about the future, all I see is you [Angel]" is overly melodramatic, but
maybe authentically so for a 16-year-old. Anyway, the scne as a whole is
interesting. After worrying about her lack of a future in WML, Buffy is
now using her relationship with Angel as a mechanism to avoid thinking
about it at all. Underlying both WML and BE is the creeping certainty
that Buffy's future will consist mainly of a lot of fighting and an early
grave. Even in a weak episode, the show never forgets this, not for a
minute.
> Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
> cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
> character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
> week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
> character I could appreciate. (Actually, I think "Witch," "Prophecy
> Girl" and the bit with Hank in WSWB are the only times she ever came
> close to working for me.)
Do you mean *ever* ever, or just up to this point in the series? I'll
agree that Joyce's character is much too one-note in Bad Eggs.
Bad Eggs includes another of my favorite Buffy lines: "I always say, a day
without an autopsy is like a day without sunshine." I'm also amused by
the surviving Gorch yelling at Buffy "This is all your fault!" and her
offended "How?!" And I sometimes chuckle at Giles instinctively pushing
the gas leak story before he even knows what the real story is.
> Rating: Bad
Merely Weak in my book.
If I was rewatching the whole season, at this point I'd be tapping my foot
impatiently waiting for Surprise and Innocence.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Michael Ikeda
news:135ufs1...@corp.supernews.com:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free. BTW, they're
>> getting cross-posted to a.t.a. from now on, if only because
>> Google is statistically less likely to screw up message
>> listings for both newsgroups at once.
>
>> Season Two, Episode 11: "Ted"
>> Writers: David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
>> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> .
> Like OBS, I'm too creeped out by the first half of the episode,
> when Ted manipulates Joyce and turns her against Buffy, to enjoy
> watching it. That doesn't count against the quality of the
> episode, but the extreme ease with which Ted manipulates people
> (even when the drugged food is taken into account) does. I
> wonder what would have happened if Buffy had given in and ate a
> mini-pizza, just to be polite? ... But of course the heart of
> the episode isn't Ted's plot, it's his "death" and the
> aftermath. Here I agree with AOQ -- this part shines. It
> actually gets a lot of its power from the hard-to-watch
> creepiness of the first half, which drove Buffy to hate Ted. If
> she hadn't hated him, she could have accepted his death as a
> genuine accident; but since she did, she has to suspect herself
> of hitting Ted harder than she needed to, making his death not
> just an accident but an abuse of her powers and something close
> to murder.
>
Not so much suspecting that she hit Ted harder then she needed too,
as suspecting that she continued the fight longer than she needed to.
If she hadn't hated Ted, she'd probably never have thrown the blow
that knocked Ted down the stairs.
(Doesn't mean that the last couple of blows were unjustified, just
that Buffy would normally have stopped before throwing them.)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
One Bit Shy
news:135ufs1...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Bode well for the character, or for the show? Buffy's line "When I think
> about the future, all I see is you [Angel]" is overly melodramatic, but
> maybe authentically so for a 16-year-old. Anyway, the scne as a whole is
> interesting. After worrying about her lack of a future in WML, Buffy is
> now using her relationship with Angel as a mechanism to avoid thinking
> about it at all. Underlying both WML and BE is the creeping certainty
> that Buffy's future will consist mainly of a lot of fighting and an early
> grave. Even in a weak episode, the show never forgets this, not for a
> minute.
Sometimes I find myself wondering why more time isn't spent on the futility
of a human-vampire relationship since the human can only grow old and die
while the vampire stays unchanged. Then I remember what you remind us of
above. It doesn't matter to Buffy because she expects to die young anyway.
Forever is a short-term prospect for that poor girl.
OBS
Don Sample
And when you get right down to it, vampire average life expectancy isn't
much better than a human's. Sure they've got a chance to live a long
time, but most of them don't. They get killed by some Slayer, or other
vampire hunter, or by some other vampire who doesn't like them. Or
maybe they just get drunk and pass out one night, and get killed by the
sunrise.
Once Angel decided to stop being brood boy, and start fighting monsters,
his life expectancy was no better than Buffy's.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-FC833D...@news.giganews.com...
That's probably true. But do you think Angel perceives it that way yet?
He's lived an awfully long time. (And survived a lot of scrapes.) I'd
expect him to see the potential long-term problem. But by the same token,
he'd know the life expectancy of slayers.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
>
> Zzzzzz... and here's BTVS at its most worthless. I think I'm obligated
but the gorch brothers
> bode well. Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
> cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
> character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
> week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
the role was never intended to be that important
in the movie buffy is not even sure her mother knows her daughters name
the series mother could be explained as the same kind
of self involved neglectful mother
who was brought to something like reality
when her daughter allegedly burnt down the gym (because of the absestos)
and got expelled from school (ive got tardy slips and im not afraid to use them)
and decided to actually try to learn to be a mother
just before the series begins and so shes learning bit by bit
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1180502490.2...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> That makes perfect sense for supporting the general theme that Buffy is a
> special slayer - a stronger one - because of her friends. Their backup
> allows her to achieve more than the other slayers. Without them she'd still
> be dead in that puddle in the Master's lair. Xander breathing life into her
> then was the great symbolic moment of the series expressing her dependence
> on them. Her life is literally drawn from their life. We've continued that
> example repeatedly since - almost to the point of it seeming routine. It
> almost seems like over kill. (Or perhaps that should be under kill, for one
> thinks Buffy would have died a few times now without help.)
> There are a whole lot of interesting things about that message of ultimately
> being alone - a message that flat out contradicts the family message so
> often emphasized at other times. One of them is what it says about Buffy's
> ability as a slayer. Frankly, she's not very good at it at this point. Not
> compared to what we will see in later seasons. Right now she really does
> seem terribly dependent on others saving her butt. In the next episode,
> Kendra will take the usual Watcher attitude that friends and emotions and so
> on are the problem. There's much that Kendra doesn't understand, but she
> still has a point. Their help can prevent Buffy from being strong on her
> own.
Is she really not so good at being a Slayer simply because she has
people helping her out? You argue it both ways, much like the show
does. WML posits that she's a better Slayer than the traditional
model precisely because she brings in friends, emotions, resistance to
rules, and all the stuff that makes her one Slayer in all the world
who'll change everything. What I get from many of these situations is
that, much like you say, she's put in situations where a friendless
Slayer would have died, and she succeeds. Maybe bringing people into
the game who'll end up saving her doesn't fit the traditional
Watchers' definition of successful Slayage, but I think Buffy does
well for herself. The first time the show really makes a compelling
argument otherwise for me is when she has such difficulty killing
Angel.
The paradoxical ending of the season can be read as a statement that
at some point one has to shed these attachments and stand alone, but
one could also say that she needed others' strength to help her get to
standing alone so capably. On the special occasion when it had to be
just her, she was... well, ready for it, but not for the aftermath.
Both philosophies are true to some extent in life, of course, so why
not on the show?
(Just kinda re-realized that amidst all the focus about Faith
representing the part of Buffy that doesn't accept any authority,
she's also the extension of only looking out for and trusting oneself,
rejecting the chance to make deeper connections with people. So
that's why she has to be introduced in the "aftermath of S2" phase of
S3.)
> > For a long time I referred to the ill-conceived and atrociously staged
> > and acted Xander/Cordelia closet scene as "The Scene That Should Not
> > Be." I eventually found I sequence that I hate even more intensely
> > (here's a hint: it comes early-ish in Season Four and appears to spawn
> > a really long argument every time it's brought up),
>
> I think Spike and Willow could have had a brilliantly co-dependent
> relationship to shame all co-dependent relationships and I'll always think
> it a shame they never had a go at it.
Can't say I've thought much about such a possibility. It could work.
But I'll just be faux-clever and quip that after "The Initiative,"
their story could only have gotten better.
> Spekaing of Drusilla, note how Kendra (and everybody else really) focuses on
> the imminent rise of Drusilla as the terrible event whose portents caused
> Kendra's watcher to send her to Sunnydale. With the wonderful closing shot
> of the cured Drusilla carrying Spike out of the wreckage of the church, the
> suggestion is quite strong that a major power has risen. It's nice support
> for my oft ridiculed theory that Drusilla is the true big bad of S2.
Drusilla floats through the story nudging events along without really
being the center of the on-screen action; here, as elsewhere, the
spotlight tends to shine more the people under her influence, Spike in
particular. I wouldn't be able to neatly summarize Drusilla's part in
the series, but I don't think we really need a singlular "true" Big
Bad who renders all others false.
> But I think the biggest one is how the dilemma created in Buffy's mind
> surrounding Ted's "death" feeds the much greater dilemma she'll face with
> Angelus. The experience Buffy has with Ted demonstrates that slayer
> decisions aren't necessarily easy or obvious. It's all too easy to kill
> someone who doesn't deserve death. That presumably adds to giving Buffy
> pause facing Angelus. Sure, there's the bias of her Angel love, but much of
> that is also drawn from the knowledge of the decent and good creature that
> could reside in him. One that shouldn't die. With Ted we see from Buffy's
> reaction that her heart rebels against a wrongful death no matter the
> excuse.
>
> But the real complication is that Buffy's instincts said that Ted was all
> wrong from the beginning. Her instincts (presumably slayer instincts)
> proved correct. (You need robot Ted for this to be shown.) It's not so
> simple as acting responsibly or letting go of her hubris or whatever other
> lesson you might want to draw from Ted. People aren't what they seem to be
> on multiple levels and conventional wisdom can steer you wrong.
>
> That might suggest that killing Angelus is therefore the easier choice,
> except that Buffy's instincts *aren't* telling her that.
>
I'm really not so wild about Buffy's magical Slayer instincts. They
only detract from the stories for me, when she doesn't have to puzzle
things out and guess like the rest of us mere mortals, except with the
fate of the world resting in her hands.
Understanding those who say that the greater scheme of the series
requires that "Ted" not be a life-shattering episode. It still goes
to a very intense place that hadn't been seen before, so I'm
understandably reluctant to give up any of it.
> Even so, there's enough entertaining moments to allow the episode to hang
> onto a Weak rating. There are no BtVS episodes that garner an outright Bad
> reaction from me. I don't actively hate watching this episode.
Do you consider any of the Whedon oeuvre outright painful to watch?
(I forget whether you gave out any Bad ratings for ATS, and I think
that FF never fell below Decent for either of us, despite a few close
calls.)
> We've come to a turning point in the season. (Well, Surprise isn't actually
> all that special, but it's still a turning point.) An opportunity to say
> that the first 12 episodes of S2 (matching the total of S1) is overall the
> worst stretch of BtVS for its entire run. Much weaker to my mind than S1.
I appear to be alone in thinking that this second fourth (roughly) of
S2 is when the series started hitting its stride, and is one of its
better periods. After pretty much a terrible start (considering that
the series had already produced PG/WSWB and such, it was harder to go
back to lesser quality eps), Season Two was finally delivering
enjoyable TV with some kind of consistency. In the seventeen episodes
prior to "Halloween," I didn't (and still don't on re-watching) have
three Good-or-above episodes in a row, and suddenly I got six in a
row. [And I believe that you rank all but one of the #6-11 run Good
as well. I'm aware that too much low-Good without perceived momentum
can be kinda tiresome, but there still seems to be a lot of unarguable
quality there.] It was disappointing to me when "Bad Eggs" signaled
the return of the extreme hit-and-miss feel of S1, and the season
never recovers - granted, the hits tend to be triples and home runs,
but through the end of S2, it strikes out way more often than I'd
like.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I don't know how that compares to last year (although I don't
> think my rating has changed much), because although I remember reading your
> original reviews of both WML episodes, and thought I replied to them,
> Google Groups disagrees. Either Google ate my posts, or I abandoned them
> before posting.
I don't remember seeing them the first time around, but as one may
have noticed, there are a lot of posts in some of those threads. (I
did read every one, honestly. Well, except for the encrypted stuff,
and the parts that degenerated into name-calling or, worse, stuff like
analysis of how Olaf's hammer works.)
> > I eventually found I sequence that I hate even more intensely
> > (here's a hint: it comes early-ish in Season Four and appears to spawn
> > a really long argument every time it's brought up), but the closet
> > still stands out as about the nadir for me of BTVS getting too serious
> > about not taking itself seriously (engaging in farce with its main
> > characters, and so on).
>
> Not getting serious about taking itself seriously leads to taking itself
> seriously, taking itself seriously leads to pretentiousness, pretentiousness
> leads to Anne Rice.
A concerted effort to not take oneself seriously leads to getting
serious about it, though. You can't fight seriousness by making a
serious effort. Forced casualness isn't really casual.
-AOQ
~I'm not taking this topic seriously anymore, if that wasn't clear~
Arbitrar Of Quality
anges <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > bode well. Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
> > cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
> > character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
> > week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
>
> the role was never intended to be that important
>
> in the movie buffy is not even sure her mother knows her daughters name
> the series mother could be explained as the same kind
> of self involved neglectful mother
> who was brought to something like reality
> when her daughter allegedly burnt down the gym (because of the absestos)
> and got expelled from school (ive got tardy slips and im not afraid to use them)
> and decided to actually try to learn to be a mother
> just before the series begins and so shes learning bit by bit
We're led to believe pretty much from the beginning that TV!Buffy is
much closer to her mom than Movie!Buffy is. The LDM had a standard
teen-movie might-at-well-be-absent parent, while Joss has said that he
specifically tried to make Joyce and the other adults on the show more
nuanced characters.
-AOQ
Don Sample
I think that having friends helping her ultimately makes her a better
Slayer, because her friends help her live long enough to gain the
experience that make her so effective in the later seasons. In the
early seasons she rarely takes on more than one vamp at a time, and
tends to avoid fights against more than one. In later seasons she is
routinely taking on three or more vamps at a time.
> I'm really not so wild about Buffy's magical Slayer instincts. They
> only detract from the stories for me, when she doesn't have to puzzle
> things out and guess like the rest of us mere mortals, except with the
> fate of the world resting in her hands.
They've never really been all that effective. Most of us spotted that
Angel was a vampire well before she got hit with the clue by four.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Being an irritable sort of person, I'm always really irritated by the
> mention of the Slayer's Handbook. Forget the apparent contradiction of
> Giles saying in NKABOTFD that he didn't have a manual, as well as the
> improbable idea that Buffy never even heard of it from *either* of her
> Watchers or any research material that the gang has gone through. What
> really annoys me is that it simply does not feel *right* for the mythos.
> Slayerdom is an occult, mysterious, indeed mystical thing, and having a
> printed handbook for it is as jarringly out of place as a sex scene in a
> Care Bears movie. It doesn't matter whether you assume that it's a good
> handbook, or a stupid Watchers' Council tradition that Buffy is well rid
> of, I have the same reaction either way.
Maybe it's only something that certain Watchers use? That might make
sense if, as some have suggested, it's more of a pamphlet of
platitudes than an actual guide, only suitable for young Potentials
who have authoritarian Watchers.
> I was a little disappointed by the ease with which Xander and Cordelia
> kill the bug man. It would have been neat to see the bugs trying to form
> together, maybe assembling a few body parts that try to fight back, as
> Xander and Cordy stomp on them. That probably would have been beyond
> BTVS's budget, though.
I'm impressed that Worm Guy was in their budget at all. He seems like
an idea that sounded cool to someone (i.e. Joss) but which doesn't
hold up to a full episode. As others have asked, how is he supposed
to actually kill anyone?
> Like OBS, I'm too creeped out by the first half of the episode, when Ted
> manipulates Joyce and turns her against Buffy, to enjoy watching it.
> That doesn't count against the quality of the episode, but the extreme
> ease with which Ted manipulates people (even when the drugged food is
> taken into account) does. I wonder what would have happened if Buffy had
> given in and ate a mini-pizza, just to be polite? ... But of course the
> heart of the episode isn't Ted's plot, it's his "death" and the aftermath.
> Here I agree with AOQ -- this part shines. It actually gets a lot of its
> power from the hard-to-watch creepiness of the first half, which drove
> Buffy to hate Ted. If she hadn't hated him, she could have accepted his
> death as a genuine accident; but since she did, she has to suspect herself
> of hitting Ted harder than she needed to, making his death not just an
> accident but an abuse of her powers and something close to murder.
Well, yeah. It's important that he straddle the line between "human
being" and monster, so that Buffy can convincingly be made to see him
as the latter for a second and just let loose, ideally with the viewer
cheering her on. The booklet with the Chosen Collection (in which
"Ted" is listed as one of Joss's favorite episodes that he didn't
direct) he expresses his love for the act break at the end of act
three, but it's the act two break that I think is such a piece of
brilliance.
> > Re-reading the thread for the
> > original review is interesting, for Don's non-supernatural rewrite,
> > although it would get rid of Joss's favorite act break, and for OBS's
> > argument about why the actual ending fits the BTVS story better.
>
> I checked the original thread out this morning. (Which I think I'll do
> for all these threads, which I suspect will take the place of those
> "revisiting AOQ" threads Apteryx started for season 1.) While I'm not
> really bothered by the robot "cop out," I think Don's idea would have made
> for a *great* episode. However, I'm also sympathetic to the view that it
> would have made Ted a little too important, when the *really* important
> stuff is coming up in Surprise/Innocence, Passion and the Becomings.
> Would killing Angel in Becoming still have had the same impact if Buffy
> had already killed a real person in Ted? Well, yeah, probably. It'd be
> pretty hard to diminish that. Still, it was probably best not to take any
> chances.
It's a reasonable argument. I'll point out that Buffy still doesn't
permanently kill anyone in Don's "how I would have ended Ted"
scenario.
> > Zzzzzz... and here's BTVS at its most worthless. I think I'm obligated
> > to throw in a mention of Buffy's last defense mechanism against the
> > traumatic experience of PG, which is throwing herself into this oh-so-
> > deep-and-romantically-doomed love with Angel; this, of course, doesn't
> > bode well.
>
> Bode well for the character, or for the show?
For the character. It's another youthful ideal that has to be
thoroughly torn apart. Although from this viewer's perspective, the B/
A scenes in BE and "Surprise" are a serious step down from earlier in
the year, so it's a good thing something comes along to shake things
up...
> After worrying about her lack of a future in WML, Buffy is
> now using her relationship with Angel as a mechanism to avoid thinking
> about it at all. Underlying both WML and BE is the creeping certainty
> that Buffy's future will consist mainly of a lot of fighting and an early
> grave.
Worth noting that it's not just an abstract concept that she's trying
so hard to avoid facing - she's already spent some time dead, and not
for tax reasons.
> > Also let me re-iterate that this is the episode that
> > cemented for me, with the bad comedy surrounding Joyce, that the
> > character would always be randomly jammed into whatever mom role this
> > week's script happened to call for, and would never emerge as a
> > character I could appreciate. (Actually, I think "Witch," "Prophecy
> > Girl" and the bit with Hank in WSWB are the only times she ever came
> > close to working for me.)
>
> Do you mean *ever* ever, or just up to this point in the series? I'll
> agree that Joyce's character is much too one-note in Bad Eggs.
Ever-ever. Joyce generally does not click for me, except in the
episodes listed. She has a good scene here and there, but I can't say
I care at all about her as a character.
-AOQ
Don Sample
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Movie Buffy's Mom didn't even have a name. She isn't even named in the
scripts.
(TV Buffy's mom isn't given a name in dialogue until season 2, but I
think that "Joyce Summers" did appear in the episode credits.)
Don Sample
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm impressed that Worm Guy was in their budget at all. He seems like
> an idea that sounded cool to someone (i.e. Joss) but which doesn't
> hold up to a full episode. As others have asked, how is he supposed
> to actually kill anyone?
When he's all together, he can kill anyone in any way that any other
person could.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> an idea that sounded cool to someone (i.e. Joss) but which doesn't
> hold up to a full episode. As others have asked, how is he supposed
> to actually kill anyone?
eats them like army ants or the mummy scarb beetles?
evelopes them and suffocates them?
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:Do you consider any of the Whedon oeuvre outright painful to watch?
Do any of his cinematic writing credits count? If
so, the movies "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Alien:
Resurrection" certainly qualify (although on a recent
attempted watching I discovered Hilary Swank and the
phrase "scoffs at gravity" (referring to Kristy Swanson's
breasts) in the former).
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 00:13:18 -0700, Arbitrar Of Quality
>
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> :Do you consider any of the Whedon oeuvre outright painful to watch?
>
> Do any of his cinematic writing credits count? If
> so, the movies "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Alien:
> Resurrection" certainly qualify (although on a recent
> attempted watching I discovered Hilary Swank and the
> phrase "scoffs at gravity" (referring to Kristy Swanson's
> breasts) in the former).
[shrug] I like the BTVS movie better than "Bad Eggs."
-AOQ
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> Is she really not so good at being a Slayer simply because she has
>> people helping her out? You argue it both ways, much like the show
>> does. WML posits that she's a better Slayer than the traditional
>> model precisely because she brings in friends, emotions, resistance to
>> rules, and all the stuff that makes her one Slayer in all the world
>> who'll change everything. What I get from many of these situations is
>> that, much like you say, she's put in situations where a friendless
>> Slayer would have died, and she succeeds. Maybe bringing people into
>> the game who'll end up saving her doesn't fit the traditional
>> Watchers' definition of successful Slayage, but I think Buffy does
>> well for herself. The first time the show really makes a compelling
>> argument otherwise for me is when she has such difficulty killing
>> Angel.
>
> I think that having friends helping her ultimately makes her a better
> Slayer, because her friends help her live long enough to gain the
> experience that make her so effective in the later seasons. In the
> early seasons she rarely takes on more than one vamp at a time, and
> tends to avoid fights against more than one. In later seasons she is
> routinely taking on three or more vamps at a time.
In addition to the practical help, Buffy's friends offer her important
emotional support, keeping her morale up, connecting her to the everyday
world, and giving her specific individuals to fight for instead of generic
humanity. If you accept Spike's theory in FFL that Slayers eventually
develop a death wish, then her friends' emotional support is as important
to Buffy's success as their work on the battlefield and in the library.
One Bit Shy
That's more or less where I was going with that. There's a duality to her
development that requires both her personal strength and the added strength
of her friends. But the way the show works is that it's very hard for those
two elements to truly work together in harmony. The more one leans one way,
the more it stresses the other. Continual tension. Up through here, the
series emphasizes the support of friends as Buffy's special strength.
What I'm suggesting is that it's also setting her up to be confronted by the
inadequacy of that by itself. To the point of nearly crushing her when
she's alone. This aspect of Buffy's personal story is what I find the
saddest. For all that her heart and friendships elevate her, she still
invariably, repeatedly distances herself from those around her. She does so
much alone. Still, it makes her a better slayer. Until she pulls too far
away and starts the cycle again... Maybe after Chosen she can find the
mutually supporting balance between those two facets of her strength that
has eluded her. I don't know. But here in S2, the backup she's come to
depend on is going to stop coming through, and her ties to the world will
seem to be her biggest problems. Sources of trouble. Points of attack.
Eventually to the point where her greatest love is one more obstacle to
overcome.
> (Just kinda re-realized that amidst all the focus about Faith
> representing the part of Buffy that doesn't accept any authority,
> she's also the extension of only looking out for and trusting oneself,
> rejecting the chance to make deeper connections with people. So
> that's why she has to be introduced in the "aftermath of S2" phase of
> S3.)
Oh, yeah. Much more important than the rebel part.
>> Spekaing of Drusilla, note how Kendra (and everybody else really) focuses
>> on
>> the imminent rise of Drusilla as the terrible event whose portents caused
>> Kendra's watcher to send her to Sunnydale. With the wonderful closing
>> shot
>> of the cured Drusilla carrying Spike out of the wreckage of the church,
>> the
>> suggestion is quite strong that a major power has risen. It's nice
>> support
>> for my oft ridiculed theory that Drusilla is the true big bad of S2.
>
> Drusilla floats through the story nudging events along without really
> being the center of the on-screen action; here, as elsewhere, the
> spotlight tends to shine more the people under her influence, Spike in
> particular. I wouldn't be able to neatly summarize Drusilla's part in
> the series, but I don't think we really need a singlular "true" Big
> Bad who renders all others false.
You're right. But I feel compelled to promote her because the depth of her
insidious influence never seems to get its due. Ever read Mists of Avalon?
It's a re-telling of the King Arthur story from the point of view of the
women who mostly stay in the castle. The action is a little scant since the
big events largely occur off-stage. The psychological drama is superb and
the hook is how King Arthur's story dances around those women. There's a
lot of dancing to Dru's fell music in BtVS S2 as well.
>> But the real complication is that Buffy's instincts said that Ted was all
>> wrong from the beginning. Her instincts (presumably slayer instincts)
>> proved correct. (You need robot Ted for this to be shown.) It's not so
>> simple as acting responsibly or letting go of her hubris or whatever
>> other
>> lesson you might want to draw from Ted. People aren't what they seem to
>> be
>> on multiple levels and conventional wisdom can steer you wrong.
>>
>> That might suggest that killing Angelus is therefore the easier choice,
>> except that Buffy's instincts *aren't* telling her that.
>>
>
> I'm really not so wild about Buffy's magical Slayer instincts.
Their existence is a disputed point. I'm fairly convinced they exist,
though far from being a highly honed and reliable tool. Much vaguer - like
an extension of her dreams. But I don't think the fact (or not) of their
magic properties need be made too much of. As so much of the series is, I
believe this is metaphorical too. It's more to trusting her heart. Much is
also made of Buffy following her heart, though that particular idea seems to
focus more on defending and/or standing up for good people (and monsters).
There's a lot of faith mixed into it too. The "slayer instinct" seems more
centered on recognizing danger. Both hint strongly at some kind of magical
influence in that they seem to be part of her enhanced slayer abilities.
Buffy just sees things other people don't - however it is that she
accomplishes it. Especially within people. One could argue that it started
with her picking out Willow to be a friend.
Indeed, one might argue that what truly makes Buffy different as a slayer is
that she applies her heart to her slayer abilities. Her other special
attributes derive from that.
> They
> only detract from the stories for me, when she doesn't have to puzzle
> things out and guess like the rest of us mere mortals, except with the
> fate of the world resting in her hands.
>
> Understanding those who say that the greater scheme of the series
> requires that "Ted" not be a life-shattering episode. It still goes
> to a very intense place that hadn't been seen before, so I'm
> understandably reluctant to give up any of it.
Oh, you shouldn't give it up. It's exactly the intense personal place
depicted I believe. And it influences her. She'll anguish over mistaken
deaths a couple more times. And her feelings about it will influence her
actions. All largely starting here.
I don't mean to diminish the moment at all. And I don't think Ted as robot
does either. She went to that place and won't forget it. She surely knows
that next time, whoever it is might not turn out to be a monster.
I just don't like the idea that Ted should ever settle anything, that it
have but one clear moral answer for Buffy to file away so she can be a
"good" slayer. Ted the robot makes things harder, not easier. Sure, Buffy
can let go some of the guilt for now, but it only complicates the ethical
quandry next time. Ted is a big step in blurring the line between human and
monster and thereby trashing the moral clarity of Buffy's calling.
It's a devastating moment in itself - and - a pathway to broader series
themes. Both. The devastation of the moment is what gives power to the
lasting paradox. But it doesn't solve anything.
>> Even so, there's enough entertaining moments to allow the episode to hang
>> onto a Weak rating. There are no BtVS episodes that garner an outright
>> Bad
>> reaction from me. I don't actively hate watching this episode.
>
> Do you consider any of the Whedon oeuvre outright painful to watch?
> (I forget whether you gave out any Bad ratings for ATS, and I think
> that FF never fell below Decent for either of us, despite a few close
> calls.)
There are moments in AtS that I really hate - many more than either of the
other two series - but they're always balanced at least some by something
good. S4 is especially like that with several episodes that strike me as
half Excellent and half Bad. Does that count? I don't believe that it ever
translates into a full Bad rating for an episode. (Though I never rated S3
or the first half of S4.)
The closest that I think I got to an all around Bad rating was I Fall To
Pieces early in AtS S1.
Firefly never got close. As you say, it never feel below Decent.
There are a few Weak ratings in BtVS, but not many. I don't recall exactly
how many. Five at most.
So, yeah, you could definitely say that the Whedon oeuvre works quite well
for me. Even at its worst, there's still something fun to see.
>> We've come to a turning point in the season. (Well, Surprise isn't
>> actually
>> all that special, but it's still a turning point.) An opportunity to say
>> that the first 12 episodes of S2 (matching the total of S1) is overall
>> the
>> worst stretch of BtVS for its entire run. Much weaker to my mind than
>> S1.
>
> I appear to be alone in thinking that this second fourth (roughly) of
> S2 is when the series started hitting its stride, and is one of its
> better periods.
I don't know if you're alone or not. I've seen a fair number of fans who
assert S2 is the best, period. For some of them that can't all be
post-Innocence.
While I'm not where you are in appreciating the results, I would agree that
this middle period is transitioning BtVS into something more substantial and
harder. It can be easy to credit Innocence as transformative by itself, but
a lot of ground work is laid out in this period. Themes are changed. Moods
grow darker. Characters are given new edges.
Enduring parts of the series mythos are presented in this time too. Most
especially, this is when the Buffy/Angel romance truly flowers. However
sappy it gets at times, it's still nigh on impossible not to be drawn into
SMG's portrayal of the love sick teen. The peak of that for me is when she
caresses Angel's vamp-face saying she hadn't noticed the change.
There are a variety of comparable moments on various subjects that make this
period very much part of the underpinnings of the whole series. The closing
of Lie To Me alone is one of the best summings of the series ever.
And I'm thoroughly enchanted by Drusilla. If you add in the next episode,
you have much of my favorite Drusilla for the series.
So I do like and appreciate the episodes.
> After pretty much a terrible start (considering that
> the series had already produced PG/WSWB and such, it was harder to go
> back to lesser quality eps), Season Two was finally delivering
> enjoyable TV with some kind of consistency. In the seventeen episodes
> prior to "Halloween," I didn't (and still don't on re-watching) have
> three Good-or-above episodes in a row, and suddenly I got six in a
> row. [And I believe that you rank all but one of the #6-11 run Good
> as well. I'm aware that too much low-Good without perceived momentum
> can be kinda tiresome, but there still seems to be a lot of unarguable
> quality there.]
Yes, the first half of the 12 episode run I referred to is worse than the
second half by my standards. (Though oddly, the first episode is the best,
and the last the worst.) We weren't talking about quite the same thing.
Be that as it may, don't make too much of my own series of Good ratings.
The reasons for the favorable ratings are touched upon above, but most of
those Good ratings exist in the context of some disappointment - where I
really wished for something even better. Halloween, Lie To Me and both WML
episodes give less to me than I thought they promised. It's also a very
long stretch without an Excellent rating.
Looking back to S1, for all of its technical flaws, it was a season peppered
with Excellent ratings from me. It also had a very nicely constructed
unifying theme that made the season really work for itself.
Here in S2, the technical flaws are getting tiresome, and thus far the
themes are much more obscure and less apparantly unifying. By the end of
the season, much of that is corrected and you can see back to how the
earlier part supports it. But it doesn't feel like that while it's
happening - even in rewatching.
So the overall affect is the closest to tedious the series gets for me.
That's all relative of course. I'm not rushing to watch other TV in its
stead. And I'm happy you're getting more out of it than me. Somebody ought
to.
> It was disappointing to me when "Bad Eggs" signaled
> the return of the extreme hit-and-miss feel of S1, and the season
> never recovers - granted, the hits tend to be triples and home runs,
> but through the end of S2, it strikes out way more often than I'd
> like.
Hmmm. Well, I think I count five of the season's best six episodes yet to
come. Maybe even six of seven depending on where Surprise falls - which at
least will be in the top half. A few weaker episodes I give credit for
being "spunky" - the right spirit if not exactly well made. One I don't
remember very well right now. I might agree with you about your earlier
remark about bad pacing in the second half. At least in the sense that some
episodes are so oblivious to the greater story as to seem inappropriate. Go
Fish being the ultimate in misplaced episodes. (Go Fish probably wouldn't
be so bad otherwise.)
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1180703392....@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
LOL! I agree. Actually, I like Alien: Resurrection better too.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1180681998.1...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> I don't mean to diminish the moment at all. And I don't think Ted as robot
> does either. She went to that place and won't forget it. She surely knows
> that next time, whoever it is might not turn out to be a monster.
>
> I just don't like the idea that Ted should ever settle anything, that it
> have but one clear moral answer for Buffy to file away so she can be a
> "good" slayer. Ted the robot makes things harder, not easier. Sure, Buffy
> can let go some of the guilt for now, but it only complicates the ethical
> quandry next time. Ted is a big step in blurring the line between human and
> monster and thereby trashing the moral clarity of Buffy's calling.
>
> It's a devastating moment in itself - and - a pathway to broader series
> themes. Both. The devastation of the moment is what gives power to the
> lasting paradox. But it doesn't solve anything.
Well said, and I can definitely go with that to a degree. I don't
think I'll stop seeing "Ted" as an episode that could have been even
better than it is, though, since I'm very attuned to the mindset of
the here-and-now, with each episode as its own product and so on.
> There are moments in AtS that I really hate - many more than either of the
> other two series - but they're always balanced at least some by something
> good. S4 is especially like that with several episodes that strike me as
> half Excellent and half Bad. Does that count? I don't believe that it ever
> translates into a full Bad rating for an episode. (Though I never rated S3
> or the first half of S4.)
Well, how can you have an opinion without assigning each component
episode a discrete ranking on an arbitary pseduo-numerical scale?
-AOQ
~;-)~
Mike Zeares
>
> General comments on S2D3: None, really. I think it's vaguely
> interesting that WML2 plays as if it were the last episode before
> winter hiatus, even though it isn't.
>
> Thoughts?
WML2 was the last ep of November sweeps, and was a major turning point
in the Spike and Dru storyline. None of the other seasons really had
an early season turning point in quite the same way. It's one of the
structural things I really like about S2. S2 was built around its two-
part episodes (including the premiere, if you count WSWB as part 2 of
PG, which I always have).
"Bad Eggs" remains one of my all-time favorite guilty pleasures. I
can't justify it in any way.
-- Mike Zeares