AOQ Review 4-19: "New Moon Rising"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
(or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: James A. Contner
There's a certain frequently-quoted line from _Firefly_ that comes to
mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
I like cats, so I'm glad to see us start with discussing one. "You
mean it'd be sort of like a familiar?" "Actually, I was thinking
it would be sort of like a pet." One of Mrs. Q's college friends
had a contraband cat that way. Hope Tara follows through. And they
sweetly hold hands... Must... restrain... inner Jayne. This brings us
to our standard period of banter, which brings us to the now-standard
ending of the teaser by panning over a returning character. Well, as
I'd guessed from the title, it's Oz, so this one should be good.
I thought it was interesting that the fiancée didn't want Willow to
get back together with Oz, since she was digging the thing with Tara.
Still, it's hard to argue with the chemistry and the writing. Look
at the joy in the scene where Oz takes Willow out to "show her
something." That's kinda the Oz equivalent of doing something
hugely dramatic. There's also the all-night chat in bed. He
hasn't lost his way of probing to the heart of a situation - when
she says that she's just stayed in Sunnydale while he's been
traveling, he answers that it "doesn't mean you haven't been
through a lot." Like an invitation to give him a heads-up on
anything that's changed that she wants to address. And although he
goes ahead and enrolls in classes again, he says he's not going to
push her, and more or less lives up to it. The issue seems like
it'll be left to where Willow falls, especially with Amber Benson
doing a near-Hannigan-caliber job of sympathy-inducing sulking.
Random quote I liked: "A woman in Tibet traded it to me for the
Radiohead record."
Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured it'd
seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we wouldn't
see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of adolescence? But
after actually seeing the buildup episodes, "The I In Team" in
particular, I started to feel better about the idea. First, the fact
that they're partners in witchcraft has given their relationship a
spiritual, sexualized side that's firmly in place by the time of NMR.
Second, it's been a very well executed slow build since "Hush,"
to the point where We The Viewer could trace Willow beginning to see
her friend in that light. There's a line here that sums it up
matter-of-factly: "There's something between us. It - it wasn't
something I was looking for. It's just powerful." Again, I know
what Jayne would say about the idea of these two together, but I'm
trying to hold off here.
The "saying my name like that" gag sucks, but then I like Buffy's
matter-of-fact "No matter what, somebody's gonna get hurt. And the
important thing is, you just have to be honest, or it's gonna be a lot
worse." And sure enough, even at his most mild-mannered, realizing
how much dishonesty there's already been brings out Oz's
movie-monster side.
One thing that's worth clarifying is that NMR doesn't actually
involve Willow making a choice between two relationships per se, since
the werewolf still ensures that Oz can't be with her. Most of the
Ozwolf stuff doesn't do much for me, so it's a good thing it's
not at the core of the show. The mechanism by which he's able to
intermittently suppress it isn't exactly well defined. I don't
know who mauled Graham - wasn't Oz with Willow during that time?
And the nice "run!" moment is sadly dulled by following it up with
that stupid gorilla costume. The intermediate form actually looks
worst of all. I'm talking "Phases" bad. But I do have to say
that I don't consider the wolf thing to be too much of a cheat or
cop-out, simply because the wolf thing is a big part of why we're in
this situation in the first place. Also, one could argue that the
choice is made, just more subtly, given that she's okay with Oz's
decision to leave now in a way that she wasn't back in "Wild At
Heart."
The alliance between Spike and Adam is an interesting bit of mutual
self-interest playing its hand. The Adam The Half-A-Scout gag is silly
but fun. Other stuff I liked: Spike's sudden (failed) attack,
Spike's "when it comes to the fighting, she does have a slight
tendency to win," and the way it's not entirely clear which side
he'll end up on. Also, the idea that despite the Scoobies' efforts
this season not to lapse into trusting Spike (and constant reminders
from William himself that he's evil) to the point where he can betray
them, it could still happen.
There's a really great little moment when Willow's insisting on
tagging along, and Buffy kinda looks at Xander for a second for
confirmation before allowing it. You know her better than anyone, what
do you think? Keep doing stuff like that, show.
Although it's of course not as interesting as Willow's arc,
there's another story here, in which Agent Finn gets in touch with
his inner anarchist. It's well paired with the A-story, sometimes
intersecting and sometimes just paralleling. Beginning with Riley's
reflexive bigotry is a little forced, even if it does give us the
well-played "okay, I'm up less than a minute, and somehow I've
managed to piss you off" part. But then his mutiny falls into place
naturally as he sees what's going on, analyzes, and draws
conclusions. It doesn't seem to take much struggle or soul-searching
to make his choice, and I'd say that's because previous episodes
have already shown him making the decision to walk out, even if he
didn't know it. We basically knew going in that he'd side with
Slayer over Initiative, but he was kinda hoping he wouldn't have to
choose between them at all, that he could somehow make them compatible.
Now his hand is forced with the arrival of Dumbass Colonel Guy, and he
thus seems strikingly secure and confident in leaving.
NMR takes care to make Riley's decision also be about him, not just
Buffy. He doesn't try to break Oz out just because he's trying to
please Buffy or prove himself to her or whatever. He's also thinking
about thing in a way he hadn't before, and objects to keeping Oz as a
prisoner on a level of personal morality. As a certain Slayer would
say, because it's wrong. Buffy decides it's time to share
everything with him at the end; she's been doing some moving on in
her own right.
The final W/O exchange has a little bit of sniffling and such, but
it's not the outpouring of tears and misery and such we saw in WAH.
This is the more adult followup, now that time has passed. That's
because, although this episode is a breakup episode of sorts, it's
not a downer, and ends on a positively upbeat note. Take for example
this exchange:
WILLOW: It was my fault. I upset you.
OZ: [sarcastic] Well, so we're safe then. Cuz you'll never do that
again.
[Willow tries to look amused.]
OZ: But... you're happy?
WILLOW: [smiles] I am. I can't explain it...
OZ: It may be safer for both of us if you don't.
So, there is some pain and regret, but they're able to deal with it.
Willow's ready to let her time with Oz be a part of her while being
happy where she is. And Riley's found something more difficult but
more rewarding than a soldier's life. This is the healing, the part
where we're ready to say goodbye to old loves and move on to new
places. I think the whole season's been trying for that feeling,
with mixed results, and it's hitting on all cylinders this week.
Do the frequent mentions of breakfast in this episode have anything to
do with the all-important cheese metaphor?
I think Blucas probably has a higher shirtlessness-per-appearance ratio
now than even Boreanaz did.
Mrs. Quality really loved the way it ended, with Willow and Tara
together, Willow's quiet "I mean," and ending by blowing out the
candle. As for me...
The hell with it. I'll be in my bunk.
So...
One-sentence summary: A strong bookend to S4's other Excellent
episode.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak
12) "A New Man" - Decent
13) "The I In Team" - Good
14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
16) "Who Are You?" - Good
17) "Superstar" - Decent
18) "Where The Wild Things Are" - Decent
19) "New Moon Rising" - Excellent]
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
> (or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> There's a certain frequently-quoted line from _Firefly_ that comes to
> mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
>
> I like cats, so I'm glad to see us start with discussing one. "You
> mean it'd be sort of like a familiar?" "Actually, I was thinking
> it would be sort of like a pet." One of Mrs. Q's college friends
> had a contraband cat that way. Hope Tara follows through. And they
> sweetly hold hands... Must... restrain... inner Jayne.
Aw, why be different?
> This brings us
> to our standard period of banter, which brings us to the now-standard
> ending of the teaser by panning over a returning character. Well, as
> I'd guessed from the title, it's Oz, so this one should be good.
And Willow is truly stunned. Another scene where Alyson shows us what
she can express with barely *any* dialogue.
>
> The "saying my name like that" gag sucks, but then I like Buffy's
> matter-of-fact "No matter what, somebody's gonna get hurt. And the
> important thing is, you just have to be honest, or it's gonna be a lot
> worse."
And the slow, slow reveal when you can see the exact moment when Willow
decides to tell Buffy, and the exact moment when Buffy "Gets it" before
Willow actually finishes explaining.
> One thing that's worth clarifying is that NMR doesn't actually
> involve Willow making a choice between two relationships per se, since
> the werewolf still ensures that Oz can't be with her. Most of the
> Ozwolf stuff doesn't do much for me, so it's a good thing it's
> not at the core of the show. The mechanism by which he's able to
> intermittently suppress it isn't exactly well defined. I don't
> know who mauled Graham - wasn't Oz with Willow during that time?
> And the nice "run!" moment is sadly dulled by following it up with
> that stupid gorilla costume. The intermediate form actually looks
> worst of all. I'm talking "Phases" bad.
I'm probably the only poster on here who's admitted to liking the
original wolf better, but it would have been better with movable features.
> Although it's of course not as interesting as Willow's arc,
> there's another story here, in which Agent Finn gets in touch with
> his inner anarchist. It's well paired with the A-story, sometimes
> intersecting and sometimes just paralleling. Beginning with Riley's
> reflexive bigotry is a little forced, even if it does give us the
> well-played "okay, I'm up less than a minute, and somehow I've
> managed to piss you off" part. But then his mutiny falls into place
> naturally as he sees what's going on, analyzes, and draws
> conclusions. It doesn't seem to take much struggle or soul-searching
> to make his choice, and I'd say that's because previous episodes
> have already shown him making the decision to walk out, even if he
> didn't know it. We basically knew going in that he'd side with
> Slayer over Initiative, but he was kinda hoping he wouldn't have to
> choose between them at all, that he could somehow make them compatible.
> Now his hand is forced with the arrival of Dumbass Colonel Guy, and he
> thus seems strikingly secure and confident in leaving.
>
> NMR takes care to make Riley's decision also be about him, not just
> Buffy. He doesn't try to break Oz out just because he's trying to
> please Buffy or prove himself to her or whatever. He's also thinking
> about thing in a way he hadn't before, and objects to keeping Oz as a
> prisoner on a level of personal morality. As a certain Slayer would
> say, because it's wrong.
I never bought Riley as a Sooper-Sojer type in the first place.
Military, sure, he'd be right at home in regular Army, but as black ops,
especially team leader? Nope. Marc Blucas did well in his quietly
efficient scenes, but his tough-guy commander scenes fell flat to me.
> So, there is some pain and regret, but they're able to deal with it.
> Willow's ready to let her time with Oz be a part of her while being
> happy where she is. And Riley's found something more difficult but
> more rewarding than a soldier's life. This is the healing, the part
> where we're ready to say goodbye to old loves and move on to new
> places. I think the whole season's been trying for that feeling,
> with mixed results, and it's hitting on all cylinders this week.
Me, too.
>
> Do the frequent mentions of breakfast in this episode have anything to
> do with the all-important cheese metaphor?
Mmmm, cheese omelet. Crap. Now I'm hungry and it's too late to eat...
> Mrs. Quality really loved the way it ended, with Willow and Tara
> together, Willow's quiet "I mean," and ending by blowing out the
> candle.
Me, too.
> As for me...
>
> The hell with it. I'll be in my bunk.
>
Me, too. Mine, that is...
> One-sentence summary: A strong bookend to S4's other Excellent
> episode.
Totally agree.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> how much dishonesty there's already been brings out Oz's
> movie-monster side.
its not dishonesty
its sexual competition
oz was assuming he would have his willow back
and then he realized he might have a competitor for willows bed
and then with the wolf as metaphor for sexuality
au revoir monsieur le metaphore
> his inner anarchist. It's well paired with the A-story, sometimes
> intersecting and sometimes just paralleling. Beginning with Riley's
> reflexive bigotry is a little forced, even if it does give us the
> well-played "okay, I'm up less than a minute, and somehow I've
> managed to piss you off" part. But then his mutiny falls into place
note buffys hypocrisy and how she doesnt come clean about
riley is freaked about willows unconventional relation with oz
and so buffy goes on a good little liberal rant about tolerance
then buffy is freaked about willows unconvential relation with tara
and realizes her hypocrisy but doesnt admit to riley
after giving him a hard time
> NMR takes care to make Riley's decision also be about him, not just
> Buffy. He doesn't try to break Oz out just because he's trying to
> please Buffy or prove himself to her or whatever. He's also thinking
> about thing in a way he hadn't before, and objects to keeping Oz as a
> prisoner on a level of personal morality. As a certain Slayer would
this is captain white bread youre talking about
youre talking like he might have depth
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
> (or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> There's a certain frequently-quoted line from Firefly that comes to
> mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
>
Gee, I just can't guess what that would be.
> I don't
> know who mauled Graham - wasn't Oz with Willow during that time?
It wasn't Oz. As you said, he was with Willow at the time, and the
things that attacked Graham's team had horns, so they weren't even
werewolves.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
eli...@gmail.com
>that they're partners in witchcraft has given their relationship a
>spiritual, sexualized side that's firmly in place by the time of NMR.
>Second, it's been a very well executed slow build since "Hush,"
>to the point where We The Viewer could trace Willow beginning to see
>her friend in that light.
stuff up, so once something happens you can look back and see how
naturally it has all progressed, even if nothing seemed to be happening
as such.
And Willow does have excellent taste in partners.
Paul Hyett
:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
>
>Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
>introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured it'd
>seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we wouldn't
>see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of adolescence?
We did - in S3, The Wish.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
(Harmony) Watcher
"Paul Hyett" <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Ts2udAZHCCcEFwr$@blueyonder.co.uk...
(http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1484) or
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7da1d5MPK7A).
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
(or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: James A. Contner
The final W/O exchange has a little bit of sniffling and such, but
it's not the outpouring of tears and misery and such we saw in WAH.
This is the more adult followup, now that time has passed. That's
because, although this episode is a breakup episode of sorts, it's
not a downer, and ends on a positively upbeat note. Take for example
this exchange:
WILLOW: It was my fault. I upset you.
OZ: [sarcastic] Well, so we're safe then. Cuz you'll never do that
again.
[Willow tries to look amused.]
OZ: But... you're happy?
WILLOW: [smiles] I am. I can't explain it...
OZ: It may be safer for both of us if you don't.
So, there is some pain and regret, but they're able to deal with it.
Willow's ready to let her time with Oz be a part of her while being
happy where she is. And Riley's found something more difficult but
more rewarding than a soldier's life. This is the healing, the part
where we're ready to say goodbye to old loves and move on to new
places. I think the whole season's been trying for that feeling,
with mixed results, and it's hitting on all cylinders this week.
<snip>
<spoilery>
Unir jr urneq sebz Bm ng nyy nsgre guvf rcvfbqr? V qba'g guvax V erpnyy ur
qvq. Xvaqn znqr zr guvax gung ur unq n gbhtu gvzr "zbivat ba". Creuncf ur
orpnzr n zbax va Gvorg.
</spoilery>
==Harmony Watcher==
Opus the Penguin
> There's a certain frequently-quoted line from _Firefly_ that comes to
> mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
Oh, wait! I know! Is it "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal"?
No? Hmmmm. How about "Wo xi wang ni man man si, dan kuai dian xia di
yu!"
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
> (or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> There's a certain frequently-quoted line from _Firefly_ that comes to
> mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
"Curse your sudden yet inevitable betrayal?" Or maybe it's just I that
quotes that frequently.
> I like cats, so I'm glad to see us start with discussing one. "You
> mean it'd be sort of like a familiar?" "Actually, I was thinking
> it would be sort of like a pet." One of Mrs. Q's college friends
> had a contraband cat that way. Hope Tara follows through. And they
> sweetly hold hands... Must... restrain... inner Jayne.
Easier than restraining the outer Jayne. That's guy's big. Anyway, I
think others have mentioned that sweetly holding hands was all the WB
would let them do at this point. Or pretty much any point.
Frustration grew, among the staff as well as fans.
> I thought it was interesting that the fiancée didn't want Willow to
> get back together with Oz, since she was digging the thing with Tara.
Must... resist... inner... Jayne....
I don't really have any reactions to the bulk of your review. Just
assume I agree with everything.
> The final W/O exchange has a little bit of sniffling and such, but
> it's not the outpouring of tears and misery and such we saw in WAH.
> This is the more adult followup, now that time has passed. That's
> because, although this episode is a breakup episode of sorts, it's
> not a downer, and ends on a positively upbeat note. Take for example
> this exchange:
>
> WILLOW: It was my fault. I upset you.
> OZ: [sarcastic] Well, so we're safe then. Cuz you'll never do that
> again.
> [Willow tries to look amused.]
> OZ: But... you're happy?
> WILLOW: [smiles] I am. I can't explain it...
> OZ: It may be safer for both of us if you don't.
That may be one of the best exchanges in the entire series, and that's
saying something. Absolutely perfect.
> Mrs. Quality really loved the way it ended, with Willow and Tara
> together, Willow's quiet "I mean," and ending by blowing out the
> candle.
After which they sat quietly in the dark and discussed Victorian
English literature.
> As for me...
>
> The hell with it. I'll be in my bunk.
Any more fanfic ideas springing to mind?
-- Mike Zeares
Michael Ikeda
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
> (or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
> Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
> introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured
> it'd seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we
> wouldn't see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of
> adolescence? But after actually seeing the buildup episodes,
> "The I In Team" in particular, I started to feel better about
> the idea. First, the fact that they're partners in witchcraft
> has given their relationship a spiritual, sexualized side that's
> firmly in place by the time of NMR.
> Second, it's been a very well executed slow build since "Hush,"
> to the point where We The Viewer could trace Willow beginning to
> see her friend in that light. There's a line here that sums it
> up matter-of-factly: "There's something between us. It - it
> wasn't something I was looking for. It's just powerful."
From what I gather, one reason for the slow build was likely the
WB's squeamishness about showing anything physical on-screen. Note
that we STILL haven't even seen them kiss, although it's basically
been stated that they've already done a lot more than that.
(I agree that the buildup is very well executed. Probably more
interesting than if Joss had used a more conventional way of
illustrating their developing romance.)
Another interesting note is (according to Aly in Nikki Stafford's
book "Bite Me!") that for a major chunk of the arc, Aly and Amber
weren't entirely sure where the W&T relationship was heading. Aly
didn't specify when exactly they knew, but it was apparently far
enough into the arc that it had become frustrating not knowing the
intended resolution.
Not sure if I mentioned this before, but Joss's initial image of
the Tara character was very different from Amber. Think it was in
the Season 5 "Casting Buffy" featurette that Joss described his
initial image of the character as "tiny and birdlike". According
to Joss, Marti Noxon lobbied for Amber and helped convince him to
give her a callback.
>
> The "saying my name like that" gag sucks
I rather liked it.
>
> One thing that's worth clarifying is that NMR doesn't actually
> involve Willow making a choice between two relationships per se,
> since the werewolf still ensures that Oz can't be with her.
Only if Oz doesn't stay calm all the time. :)
>
> There's a really great little moment when Willow's insisting on
> tagging along, and Buffy kinda looks at Xander for a second for
> confirmation before allowing it. You know her better than
> anyone, what do you think? Keep doing stuff like that, show.
>
Did not spot that. Note to self: watch scene more carefully next
time you scene episode.
> Now his hand is forced with the arrival of Dumbass Colonel Guy,
> and he
> thus seems strikingly secure and confident in leaving.
"Dumbass Colonel Guy". Good description...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Take for example
> this exchange:
>
> WILLOW: It was my fault. I upset you.
> OZ: [sarcastic] Well, so we're safe then. Cuz you'll never do that
> again.
> [Willow tries to look amused.]
> OZ: But... you're happy?
> WILLOW: [smiles] I am. I can't explain it...
> OZ: It may be safer for both of us if you don't.
I think this illustrates the nail/ head interface for the episode. I
guess is must be one of those strong director situations that Bill
Ferguson talks about, re-Alyson.
It is the *barest trace* of a smile that sells the scene. Just as the
*slightly too sudden* pulling away when they are outside looking at the
moon, together with the *merest flicker* of a frown that sells Willow's
inner turmoil. Talking on the bed there's a moment when she touches Oz's
shoulder and, again, whips it away just a *bit too* quickly. And then
there's the whole "uh-oh, why now" scene.
This ep is worth re-watching just for the Hannigan less-is-more
masterclass. It's extra flamey.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Stephen Tempest
>Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
>Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
>introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured it'd
>seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we wouldn't
>see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of adolescence?
Sounds like my cue:
When we meet Willow, she clearly thinks of herself as heterosexual,
but she hasn't actually had a relationship with a boy, ever, from what
we can see.
She does have a crush on a male friend she's known from childhood, who
sees her as a sister and has no sexual feelings for her. Can we say
"safe, familiar and unthreatening"?
Then she meets Oz, who is cool because he plays lead guitar in a band,
and is interested in her. Willow gets to drop the phrase "my
boyriend" into every second conversation she has. Can we say "looking
for social approval"?
Of course, it's important to note just how laid-back and non-sexual Oz
is. The two big emotional moments in their relationship are when
Willow makes a sexual advance to Oz and he _turns her down_, because
he senses that she's not doing it out of actual passion but just to
make a point...
Not that Willow is completely uninterested in sex. She certainly
shows an endless fascination with _Buffy's_ sex life. Can we say
"Hmmm"?
She does have the brief fluke with Xander, partly because he's
suddenly interested in her. She knows they're both in relationships
and it's wrong - but it's not as if doing something slightly illicit
and against the rules ever got Willow excited, is it?
Then there's the moment she finally loses her virginity with Oz, the
night before the apocalypse. Can we say "exception for impending
death situations"?
And the two of them are sleeping together for about four months,
maximum, before Oz leaves her for another woman. A woman who revels
in her animal sexuality . Can we say "wonder if that's a metaphor for
what Oz felt was missing in his relationship with Willow? And if so,
since she's clearly a passionate person, I wonder why her heart wasn't
in it?"?
So, any hints there? Maybe the odd one or two? :) And I haven't even
mentioned Doppelgangland...
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality (tsm...@wildmail.com) wrote:
>
>> There's a certain frequently-quoted line from _Firefly_ that comes to
>> mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
>
> Oh, wait! I know! Is it "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal"?
> No? Hmmmm. How about "Wo xi wang ni man man si, dan kuai dian xia di
> yu!"
>
Dammit! I can't believe I just tried to un-ROT-13 that...
Stephen Tempest
>The "saying my name like that" gag sucks, but then I like Buffy's
>matter-of-fact "No matter what, somebody's gonna get hurt. And the
>important thing is, you just have to be honest, or it's gonna be a lot
>worse."
Some brilliant acting moments in that scene:
Willow taking a deep breath and steeling herself before coming out*
with the words "It's complicated because of Tara."
* So to speak...
The look on Willow's face when Buffy misunderstands what she means for
a moment...
Buffy denying that she's freaked out by Willow's news, repeating "No,
no" and clearly lying her ass off - then she too visibly pulls herself
together and says "No, absolutely not" in a completely different tone
of voice - an entirely sincere one, this time.
>The mechanism by which he's able to
>intermittently suppress it isn't exactly well defined.
Self-control, denial and willpower, plus magic. Of course, strong
emotion (in Oz! Who knew?) causes him to lose it during the episode...
Pbzcner Jvyybj gelvat gb hfr frys-pbageby naq zntvp gb fhccerff ure
bja qnex fvqr va gur frpbaq unys bs frnfba fvk...
>NMR takes care to make Riley's decision also be about him, not just
>Buffy. He doesn't try to break Oz out just because he's trying to
>please Buffy or prove himself to her or whatever. He's also thinking
>about thing in a way he hadn't before, and objects to keeping Oz as a
>prisoner on a level of personal morality.
He's seen that HSTs aren't just animals - some of them are people.
The certainties that his world was built on (early morning exercises
are an important symbol here) are crumbling, and he needs to find new
ones.
>I think Blucas probably has a higher shirtlessness-per-appearance ratio
>now than even Boreanaz did.
It's a Marti Noxon episode, didn't you notice? <g>
Stephen
drifter
> Arbitrar Of Quality (tsm...@wildmail.com) wrote:
>
>> There's a certain frequently-quoted line from _Firefly_ that comes to
>> mind here. I won't use it here. Too obvious. Not yet, anyway.
>
> Oh, wait! I know! Is it "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal"?
> No? Hmmmm. How about "Wo xi wang ni man man si, dan kuai dian xia di
> yu!"
Weird. I Babel-fished that and it came out, "I am a leaf on the wind;
blow me!"
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> but she hasn't actually had a relationship with a boy, ever, from what
> we can see.
doesnt have to be either-or
Arbitrar Of Quality
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
> >Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
> >introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured it'd
> >seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we wouldn't
> >see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of adolescence?
>
> Sounds like my cue:
>
> When we meet Willow, she clearly thinks of herself as heterosexual,
> but she hasn't actually had a relationship with a boy, ever, from what
> we can see.
Well, she and Xander were together in their pre-school days...
> She does have a crush on a male friend she's known from childhood, who
> sees her as a sister and has no sexual feelings for her. Can we say
> "safe, familiar and unthreatening"?
> Then she meets Oz, who is cool because he plays lead guitar in a band,
> and is interested in her. Willow gets to drop the phrase "my
> boyriend" into every second conversation she has. Can we say "looking
> for social approval"?
> Of course, it's important to note just how laid-back and non-sexual Oz
> is. The two big emotional moments in their relationship are when
> Willow makes a sexual advance to Oz and he _turns her down_, because
> he senses that she's not doing it out of actual passion but just to
> make a point...
It's an interesting thought, but I don't really see the need to dismiss
Willow's relationship with Oz that way. She's deliriously happy to be
with him, not just for social approval but because she wants a
boyfriend (as also seen in "Robot"), and because of Oz himself. She
seems more often than not to be the one pushing to get closer to him,
physically and emotionally, and we see in "Wild At Heart" that she's
the one wanting frequent sex. I'm hard-pressed to see any indication
that she doesn't have very strong, very specifically romantic feelings
for him. They're both kinda quietly passionate people, and their
scenes together reflect that... and I imagine that things with Tara
will have a similar vibe, espeically given the network lameassery.
> She does have the brief fluke with Xander, partly because he's
> suddenly interested in her. She knows they're both in relationships
> and it's wrong - but it's not as if doing something slightly illicit
> and against the rules ever got Willow excited, is it?
The danger excites her... as does the whole "irresistable sexual
attraction to a guy" thing,
> Then there's the moment she finally loses her virginity with Oz, the
> night before the apocalypse. Can we say "exception for impending
> death situations"?
> And the two of them are sleeping together for about four months,
> maximum, before Oz leaves her for another woman. A woman who revels
> in her animal sexuality . Can we say "wonder if that's a metaphor for
> what Oz felt was missing in his relationship with Willow? And if so,
> since she's clearly a passionate person, I wonder why her heart wasn't
> in it?"?
That's one read. Mine is more that Oz's desires as a person and those
of his wolf side are in conflict. Willow appeals to the gentler part
of him we know and love, and it's this beast that's insidiously taking
him over and wiping out the original person that finds Veruca more
interesting. Again, he's the one pulling back sexually from Willow,
not the other way around, and by the above framework, it's probably
because he's afraid of his wolfly urges. As we discussed in the WAH
review, I don't think that's a good episode in which to get too carried
away with the metaphors, since that detracts from the power of the
human story.
> So, any hints there? Maybe the odd one or two? :) And I haven't even
> mentioned Doppelgangland...
Which I'd forgotten about, and is a good point to bring up. And
supports the idea that she has a wide capacity for sexual interest,
given that Vamp!Willow in TW and DGL seems willing to lick anyone
lickable, male or female, heartbeat or no.
-AOQ
Stephen Tempest
>Well, she and Xander were together in their pre-school days...
That would be addressed in my next paragraph:
>> She does have a crush on a male friend she's known from childhood, who
>> sees her as a sister and has no sexual feelings for her. Can we say
>> "safe, familiar and unthreatening"?
>It's an interesting thought, but I don't really see the need to dismiss
>Willow's relationship with Oz that way. She's deliriously happy to be
>with him, not just for social approval but because she wants a
>boyfriend (as also seen in "Robot"), and because of Oz himself.
I think they're all important factors, of course. Social approval is
important for Willow, not least for her own self-image: for years
she's been the wallflower, the one who never gets dates - so it means
a lot to her when someone finally pays her attention, and finds her
attractive. We've seen that from the very first episode.
I think she's also the kind of person who not just wants but *needs* a
confidante, someone to feel close to, talk to and share things with.
Their gender isn't as relevant as their personality.
So, am I 'dismissing' her relationship with Oz? Not really... to be
honest, I doubt if the writers had planned from the start to turn her
lesbian in season 4, so their relationship was written in seasons 2
and 3 as a perfectly genuine one. (Although I've read somewhere,
perhaps on this very newsgroup, that Joss *had* planned from the early
days to have either Xander or Willow turn out to be gay once they left
school, and planted a few clues in the early seasons that could be
built on later - the way things turned out, it was Willow that got
chosen for that storyline. Not sure how much truth there is in
that...)
And for the record, I do appreciate I may have painted a rather, um,
one-sided picture of Willow's sexuality in my original post, to prove
my point... Personally, I'd class her as about a 4 on the Kinsey
scale, not a 6... (Although discussing that further will involve
spoilers, so I'll stop there).
>That's one read. Mine is more that Oz's desires as a person and those
>of his wolf side are in conflict. Willow appeals to the gentler part
>of him we know and love, and it's this beast that's insidiously taking
>him over and wiping out the original person that finds Veruca more
>interesting. Again, he's the one pulling back sexually from Willow,
>not the other way around, and by the above framework, it's probably
>because he's afraid of his wolfly urges.
Sure. That's the surface metaphor. :)
Stephen
alphakitten
> The danger excites her... as does the whole "irresistable sexual
> attraction to a guy" thing,
I don't see any genuine irresistable sexual attraction in the fluke. The
second they get caught, the attraction evaporates. They both immediately
set about trying to win Oz and Cordy back. Neither of them are seen even
considering the possibility of pursuing a relationship with each other.
IMO, the thrill was all tied to the naughtiness and the guilt and the
fear of being found out.
~Angel
eli...@gmail.com
>perhaps on this very newsgroup, that Joss *had* planned from the early
>days to have either Xander or Willow turn out to be gay once they left
>school, and planted a few clues in the early seasons that could be
>built on later - the way things turned out, it was Willow that got
>chosen for that storyline. Not sure how much truth there is in
>that...
very glad they didn't go with Xander - he's so irredeemably straight in
my head.
KenM47
I always liked his episode and thought the Oz love story very
touching, and loved Willow being with the one she loved. It was and is
Excellent for me.
BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
never thought of in these terms before.
With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
so to speak.
And BTW what are Buffy's green leather pants in this episode?
Ken (Brooklyn)
Apteryx
news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>AOQ rating: Excellent
This one's not for me. I never really liked any of the werewolf stories
much, and this one's by Marti Noxon, so do the math. Didn't Jerry Springer
already do a show on werewolves and the lesbians who love them?
I think it was a strategic mistake to make Oz both a werewolf and Willow's
boyfriend (one or the other would have been fine, but not both). For 2 and a
half seasons we had a superhero and her relationship with a non-human,
offset against her normal friends and their normal relationships, or lack
thereof (normal in the sense of being relationships any viewer might have,
even if they don't know any vampires or werewolves). The normality of
Buffy's friends is an essential aspect of the story for me. The running gag
of Xander being a demon magnet doesn't detract from that, because it is
that - a running gag.
And what's with the shoddy Tibetan craftsmanship? Change Oz so that instead
of turning lethal predictably 3 nights a month, he changes whenever he gets
pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer. Can Oz get a refund? And given that
change in him, isn't the Initiative right to want him locked up? Compare to
someone with a mental illness such that he can function normally most of the
time, but whenever put under severe emotional stress, he kills. And do we
know that people bitten by Oz in future but not killed won't become the same
kind of werewolf as him (triggered by emotion rather than phases of the
moon)? If they are, then Buffy has released a far more dangerous monster
than Adam.
Not much Preston Sturges-like dialogue here for me either, but I did like
Adam's comment the "parts of him" had been boy scouts, and Anya's "Slap my
hand now!"
For me its the 130th best BtVS episode, 22nd best in Season 4
--
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
>BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
>something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
>never thought of in these terms before.
>
>With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
>traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
>so to speak.
That's one reason I was never 100% happy with their relationship as
depicted here
Nygubhtu Gnen qrirybcrq n ybg bs frys-pbasvqrapr va frnfba fvk,
Naq bs pbhefr Xraarql jnf rknpgyl jung Jvyybj arrqrq va frnfba
frira... nygubhtu V fhfcrpg V'yy or nyzbfg nybar va ubyqvat gung
bcvavba. <t>
Stephen
Don Sample
wrote:
> And what's with the shoddy Tibetan craftsmanship? Change Oz so that instead
> of turning lethal predictably 3 nights a month, he changes whenever he gets
> pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer.
We don't know if it's whenever he gets pissed off. It might still only
happen during those three days, so he has to take precautions on those
days not to be around anything that's likely to make him upset.
Rowan Hawthorn
V'ir fnvq gur fnzr guvat - ohg V hfhnyyl znxr fher V unir ybgf bs oyhag
jrncbaf unaql jura V zragvba vg...
One Bit Shy
news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I like cats, so I'm glad to see us start with discussing one. "You
> mean it'd be sort of like a familiar?" "Actually, I was thinking
> it would be sort of like a pet."
Maybe it's just me, but I think those are kind of telling lines about the
difference between the two.
On the other hand, I like cats too. Nothing quite like a kitty going
bonkers. Better keep it away from Amy though.
> One of Mrs. Q's college friends
> had a contraband cat that way. Hope Tara follows through. And they
> sweetly hold hands... Must... restrain... inner Jayne. This brings us
> to our standard period of banter, which brings us to the now-standard
> ending of the teaser by panning over a returning character. Well, as
> I'd guessed from the title, it's Oz, so this one should be good.
When I first saw this I had no idea what the title was and didn't expect Oz
at all. But even now I still jump when he appears at the door.
The return of past cast members have been surprises before. There's
certainly no reason to expect Spike to show up in Lovers Walk. Or Faith
just a few episodes ago. They both surprised quite well.
But this is different. It's not, "Oh, cool. Look who's back." It's, "Oh,
my god! This is a problem."
I'm immediately struck by how thoroughly Oz has been put out of everybody's
head. Including the audience. We've forgotten about him.
It's not the most surprising entrance the series will give us, but it's
pretty damn good for such an understated one.
Then Oz walks towards Willow and stops with Tara's knees between them. God,
that must have been uncomfortable for her.
And then, later, leave it to Anya to verbalize the obvious. "Everyone's
uncomfortable now." From anybody else that would be such a stupid line.
But from her it caps the scene beautifully.
There are some other things in this scene too. Anya's last remark, for
example, serves as the other bookend to earlier "snide" remarks to Giles. A
nice illustration of her inept handling of the social graces. It's not just
rude. I mean, she *is* rude and annoying. But there's also a solid dose of
innocent honesty too. And it's not just lack of impulse control either.
She really doesn't get why and when these social niceties apply. Terribly
annoying, as Giles can attest too. But rather endearing too, as Xander can
attest to.
Presumably a lot of this is because of her demon background. (Though we
have some reason to believe she wasn't exactly on firm ground in her
pre-demon days either.) It's just not the way most demons think. If you
watch closely, you can see some of the same thing in Spike. Of course he's
devious, scheming and generally nasty too. And there are a lot of things he
sees better than anybody. But there's also a piece that just doesn't get
it. One of the many parts of him that I really get a kick out of.
But I digress. Back to the uncomfortable remark. The other interesting
thing about that to me is that Anya, of course, doesn't really care about
Willow and Oz. She's just making an observation about the vibe that she
feels strongly enough to verbalize. She's not the only one to verbalize
that. Riley does too in the follow-up scene. And specifically in terms of
there being more than the break-up at work. I think it's interesting that
the two who know Willow the least are the ones that catch on the most that
something's up.
Back to Anya's snide remark. Giles reaction is kind of curious. Yes, Anya
was insulting. But Giles knows that's Anya being Anya, and how much could
he really care what Anya thinks? Methinks his need to get all watcher
assertive then is being drawn from a different place. Anya's the excuse.
Lastly, Xander had a really cool moment in there when he stepped forward to
greet Oz, breaking the ice, and bridging the gap between Oz and everybody
else. Of course, in typical Xander fashion, he uses the joke to ease the
tension. But the particular joke is pretty smart. Welcoming Oz on the one
hand, while acknowledging people's discomfort on the other. It's so, well,
mature of him.
Little things all in a little scene, I know. But I think it's a really good
scene.
> I thought it was interesting that the fiancée didn't want Willow to
> get back together with Oz, since she was digging the thing with Tara.
> Still, it's hard to argue with the chemistry and the writing. Look
> at the joy in the scene where Oz takes Willow out to "show her
> something." That's kinda the Oz equivalent of doing something
> hugely dramatic. There's also the all-night chat in bed. He
> hasn't lost his way of probing to the heart of a situation - when
> she says that she's just stayed in Sunnydale while he's been
> traveling, he answers that it "doesn't mean you haven't been
> through a lot." Like an invitation to give him a heads-up on
> anything that's changed that she wants to address. And although he
> goes ahead and enrolls in classes again, he says he's not going to
> push her, and more or less lives up to it. The issue seems like
> it'll be left to where Willow falls, especially with Amber Benson
> doing a near-Hannigan-caliber job of sympathy-inducing sulking.
A little flash-back to one of your remarks back in Wild At Heart:
> Having Oz realize next episode that he can control the wolf better than
> he thought would be retcon-ish.
(Please note how nobody responded to that with even a hint of spoilage.) Of
course this isn't the next episode. But I'm curious if you think now that
it's at all retcon-ish.
My biggest issue with this episode (biggest being very small in this case)
is that I never felt Willow being drawn back towards Oz. The outcome was
never at issue. That's not as bad as it might sound. Mainly that just
adjusts the story a little to Willow having to make the real commitment to
Tara and letting the secret out. And bringing closure to Oz. That's fine
with me. It's enough for Oz's presence to be an uncomfortable complication
and to serve as catalyst for a Willow/Tara commitment and Riley's second
break with the Initiative.
But I think parts were intended to suggest that Willow really was torn
between the two. I didn't buy that. I'm sure she was torn over what to do
about the problem. (And, as you note, she got off easy on that and
got to watch circumstances do all the work.) But she knew who she wanted.
> Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
> Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
> introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured it'd
> seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we wouldn't
> see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of adolescence? But
> after actually seeing the buildup episodes, "The I In Team" in
> particular, I started to feel better about the idea. First, the fact
> that they're partners in witchcraft has given their relationship a
> spiritual, sexualized side that's firmly in place by the time of NMR.
> Second, it's been a very well executed slow build since "Hush,"
> to the point where We The Viewer could trace Willow beginning to see
> her friend in that light. There's a line here that sums it up
> matter-of-factly: "There's something between us. It - it wasn't
> something I was looking for. It's just powerful." Again, I know
> what Jayne would say about the idea of these two together, but I'm
> trying to hold off here.
As best as I can tell, Seth Green really did leave the show of his own
volition. And the show really had intended the relationship with Oz to
continue. So I don't see how there could be that many clues in past
seasons. Though some fun attempts have been made to rationalize it and
there is kinda gay vampire Willow (in a season all about finding identity no
less -heh-). But, really, there wasn't a lot of time to set it up. There
are a few S4 clues, however. Such as Willow's scene with Parker in Beer
Bad.
Willow: Yes. I wanted to give you a piece of my mind. I'm tired of you
men and your manness.
----------
Willow: I mean, you men. It's all about the sex! You find a woman,
drag her to your den, do whatever's necessary just as long as you get
the sex. I tell you men haven't changed since the dawn of time.
As you may recall, this is before the split with Oz, but after Oz's
fascination with Veruca begins. So the Parker scene is largely her venting
her upset with Oz. But, as you can see, it takes on a general anti-men
tone. There are a couple more moments of that sort that I'm not going to
hunt down. It's not a very strong clue, nor particularly clever.
But I think that's good. Indeed, it may have forced the show not to take
the easy way. The way the relationship is actually built is very personal
and far more than mere sexual preference. You hit the really big influence
with their shared witchcraft. Aside from the rather less than metaphoric
sensuality and orgasm depicted, just doing it through magic is something
that has to thrill Willow. How could life be better than that? Magic was
also the door into the relationship and, interestingly, the more important
hidden setup. Willow met Tara at the Wicca group. Well, as you may recall,
it was the orientation meetings of the Wicca group that kept Willow away
from Oz's cage the nights he hooked up with Veruca. And then the Hush
moment, of course, that instantly bonded them - also occurring at a point
when Willow was frustrated at how poor her spells worked.
I think another important factor is Tara's total devotion. I get the
feeling that Willow is kind of a sucker for that. It's not really what
she's used to in life - until Oz. And now multiplied with Tara to the
extreme. Oz was devoted, but still utterly independent when he thought he
needed to be. They were equals. Tara is almost totally subservient. (I
say almost because we have seen one moment where Tara didn't do what Willow
wanted when she sabotaged the locator spell. Willow didn't see it though.)
And, well, I think Willow is getting off on that a bit.
I don't want to over emphasize the latter. Willow can't help that it feels
good. And it's more Tara's seduction than it is Willow taking advantage.
But the point is that it's an influence outside mere sexuality.
> The "saying my name like that" gag sucks, but then I like Buffy's
> matter-of-fact "No matter what, somebody's gonna get hurt. And the
> important thing is, you just have to be honest, or it's gonna be a lot
> worse."
I love that scene for all the reasons others have already pointed out. This
is AH's high point for me in this episode. Don't know why you don't like
the Will repeats. It works for me as a kind of nervous stutter.
> And sure enough, even at his most mild-mannered, realizing
> how much dishonesty there's already been brings out Oz's
> movie-monster side.
In the daytime you notice. I think that's kind of interesting. And must
provide an extra level of freak out for Oz. All that time that he's been
building up a regimen to repress his wolf side through will power and it
turns out that (emotional) will power also sets it free at any time. His
solution would appear to be harder than he counted on.
> One thing that's worth clarifying is that NMR doesn't actually
> involve Willow making a choice between two relationships per se, since
> the werewolf still ensures that Oz can't be with her.
One might say that Willow gets off easy here.
> Most of the
> Ozwolf stuff doesn't do much for me, so it's a good thing it's
> not at the core of the show. The mechanism by which he's able to
> intermittently suppress it isn't exactly well defined. I don't
> know who mauled Graham - wasn't Oz with Willow during that time?
> And the nice "run!" moment is sadly dulled by following it up with
> that stupid gorilla costume. The intermediate form actually looks
> worst of all. I'm talking "Phases" bad.
None of the wolf outfits worked. But to be honest, lots of monster costumes
are pretty cheesy.
> But I do have to say
> that I don't consider the wolf thing to be too much of a cheat or
> cop-out, simply because the wolf thing is a big part of why we're in
> this situation in the first place. Also, one could argue that the
> choice is made, just more subtly, given that she's okay with Oz's
> decision to leave now in a way that she wasn't back in "Wild At
> Heart."
As I said above, I think the choice had always been made. But Willow still
got off easy by not having to deliver the news.
> The alliance between Spike and Adam is an interesting bit of mutual
> self-interest playing its hand. The Adam The Half-A-Scout gag is silly
> but fun. Other stuff I liked: Spike's sudden (failed) attack,
> Spike's "when it comes to the fighting, she does have a slight
> tendency to win," and the way it's not entirely clear which side
> he'll end up on. Also, the idea that despite the Scoobies' efforts
> this season not to lapse into trusting Spike (and constant reminders
> from William himself that he's evil) to the point where he can betray
> them, it could still happen.
It sure has been comical watching Spike insist he's evil. But then there's
that thing about whenever ideas are repeated in BtVS, they must mean
something.... On the other hand, dear William the Bloody does like to do
things his way. I guess you'll just have to watch and see.
> There's a really great little moment when Willow's insisting on
> tagging along, and Buffy kinda looks at Xander for a second for
> confirmation before allowing it. You know her better than anyone, what
> do you think? Keep doing stuff like that, show.
That's a good catch. I've never noticed that.
> Dumbass Colonel Guy
Heh
> This is the healing, the part
> where we're ready to say goodbye to old loves and move on to new
> places. I think the whole season's been trying for that feeling,
> with mixed results, and it's hitting on all cylinders this week.
Good. Yes, that's part of it. I'll have more to say about that at the end
of the season.
> Do the frequent mentions of breakfast in this episode have anything to
> do with the all-important cheese metaphor?
Is cheese a big part of your breakfast?
Question. Was there anything in here mentioning Angel's call to Giles? I
didn't see it.
Moment. Anya and Giles slapping hands in celebration.
> So...
> One-sentence summary: A strong bookend to S4's other Excellent
> episode.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
It's a very satisfying episode and rates Excellent for me too. But there
are at least 5 episodes this season I think are better.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:EsydnWSYY_B...@giganews.com...
> I never bought Riley as a Sooper-Sojer type in the first place. Military,
> sure, he'd be right at home in regular Army, but as black ops, especially
> team leader? Nope. Marc Blucas did well in his quietly efficient scenes,
> but his tough-guy commander scenes fell flat to me.
I don't think Riley saw it as black ops. Secret, yes. But that was largely
not to panic the civilians. The black ops aspect is what blew his mind and
made him quit. He was pretty much protect and serve. In that capacity, I
think he was a fine leader. So, sucking at black ops is kind of the point.
Perhaps the real question is why Maggie Walsh picked him as her pet.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>>> BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
>>> something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
>>> never thought of in these terms before.
>>>
>>> With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
>>> traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
>>> so to speak.
>>
>> That's one reason I was never 100% happy with their relationship as
>> depicted here
>>
>> Nygubhtu Gnen qrirybcrq n ybg bs frys-pbasvqrapr va frnfba fvk,
>>
>> Naq bs pbhefr Xraarql jnf rknpgyl jung Jvyybj arrqrq va frnfba
>> frira... nygubhtu V fhfcrpg V'yy or nyzbfg nybar va ubyqvat gung
>> bcvavba. <t>
>>
>> Stephen
>
> V'ir fnvq gur fnzr guvat - ohg V hfhnyyl znxr fher V unir ybgf bs oyhag
> jrncbaf unaql jura V zragvba vg...
V guvax gur vqrn vf evtug. Gur rkrphgvba whfg trgf n ovg shaxl.
OBS
One Bit Shy
"KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:oqu172h5dplq3faj4...@4ax.com...
>I don't know if this is heretical or not.
>
> I always liked his episode and thought the Oz love story very
> touching, and loved Willow being with the one she loved. It was and is
> Excellent for me.
>
> BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
> something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
> never thought of in these terms before.
>
> With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
> traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
> so to speak.
Yes, I agree with you. However, there's an extra subtlety to it. Willow's
not acting butch or taking advantage of Tara this way. Really, it's Tara's
way of seducing Willow. And you will note that Tara did defy Willow once -
secretly - when she sabotaged the locator spell.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:EsydnWSYY_B...@giganews.com...
>
>> I never bought Riley as a Sooper-Sojer type in the first place. Military,
>> sure, he'd be right at home in regular Army, but as black ops, especially
>> team leader? Nope. Marc Blucas did well in his quietly efficient scenes,
>> but his tough-guy commander scenes fell flat to me.
>
>
> I don't think Riley saw it as black ops.
Well, no, he almost certainly didn't. But then, since the Initiative
recruited him from *special ops* to begin with, he would have to be
truly naive to think that he was never going to be assigned a
questionable mission. But then, of course, he was naive about a lot of
things.
> Secret, yes. But that was largely
> not to panic the civilians. The black ops aspect is what blew his mind and
> made him quit. He was pretty much protect and serve. In that capacity, I
> think he was a fine leader. So, sucking at black ops is kind of the point.
>
> Perhaps the real question is why Maggie Walsh picked him as her pet.
1) He *was* good at his job until he began to realize the true face of
it, and 2) until he met Buffy, he wasn't inclined to question his
assignments or even wonder about them, making him a perfect patsy.
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:1272b0n...@news.supernews.com...
stereotyping], he was a "construct", and she grew him out of a petrie dish?
==Harmony Watcher==
Rowan Hawthorn
Abg rabhtu gvzr sbe gur punenpgref gb qrirybc.
One Bit Shy
news:e4qvsi$rqs$1...@emma.aioe.org...
> I think it was a strategic mistake to make Oz both a werewolf and Willow's
> boyfriend (one or the other would have been fine, but not both). For 2 and
> a half seasons we had a superhero and her relationship with a non-human,
> offset against her normal friends and their normal relationships, or lack
> thereof (normal in the sense of being relationships any viewer might have,
> even if they don't know any vampires or werewolves). The normality of
> Buffy's friends is an essential aspect of the story for me. The running
> gag of Xander being a demon magnet doesn't detract from that, because it
> is that - a running gag.
You may be right about the werewolf thing, though I'm not entirely
convinced. Most of the time Oz was normal.
I think Oz posed a different problem for the show myself. I don't think he
could ever be fully part of the Scoobies. Hanging with Willow was the only
reason he was there to begin with. And he has such an independent spirit
that eventually he'd have to cut his own path. Even if he wasn't a
werewolf, Oz would need to go to Tibet.
OBS
KenM47
>
>"KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:oqu172h5dplq3faj4...@4ax.com...
>>I don't know if this is heretical or not.
>>
>> I always liked his episode and thought the Oz love story very
>> touching, and loved Willow being with the one she loved. It was and is
>> Excellent for me.
>>
>> BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
>> something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
>> never thought of in these terms before.
>>
>> With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
>> traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
>> so to speak.
>
>Yes, I agree with you. However, there's an extra subtlety to it. Willow's
>not acting butch or taking advantage of Tara this way.
I wasn't suggesting either. But she is acting dominant.
> Really, it's Tara's way of seducing Willow.
Are you suggesting it's a ploy? Conscious or unconscious?
I don't think so. I think that's just the way Tara is.
(juvpu vf shegure rkcynvarq va Snzvyl)
>And you will note that Tara did defy Willow once -
>secretly - when she sabotaged the locator spell.
>
>OBS
>
Well ... (zber frys-cerfreingvba guna qrsvnapr - Snzvyl ntnva.)
Ken (Brooklyn)
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:1272dem...@news.supernews.com...
a werewolf? (To visit the "Shadow"? <g>) In fact, there are a few other
places on Earth that he could learn to "un-wolf"--at least in other
fantasy/fiction worlds.
==Harmony Watcher==
Opus the Penguin
Not really. But it's a good retcon.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
One Bit Shy
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>
>>"KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>news:oqu172h5dplq3faj4...@4ax.com...
>>>I don't know if this is heretical or not.
>>>
>>> I always liked his episode and thought the Oz love story very
>>> touching, and loved Willow being with the one she loved. It was and is
>>> Excellent for me.
>>>
>>> BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
>>> something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
>>> never thought of in these terms before.
>>>
>>> With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
>>> traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
>>> so to speak.
>>
>>Yes, I agree with you. However, there's an extra subtlety to it.
>>Willow's
>>not acting butch or taking advantage of Tara this way.
>
> I wasn't suggesting either. But she is acting dominant.
>
>> Really, it's Tara's way of seducing Willow.
>
> Are you suggesting it's a ploy? Conscious or unconscious?
>
> I don't think so. I think that's just the way Tara is.
No, I don't mean a ploy exactly, though she does want to seduce Willow.
It's just that Tara is the one initiating this, even though she's in the
passive role. It's a funny kind of dominance/passive relationship because
Willow, the dominant one, isn't seizing control. Tara is handing it to her.
This is new to Willow, something she normally avoids unless she's riled up.
But I think she finds it irresistable now. So even though it's not really a
ploy, it does the trick.
> (juvpu vf shegure rkcynvarq va Snzvyl)
Sure.
>>And you will note that Tara did defy Willow once -
>>secretly - when she sabotaged the locator spell.
>
> Well ... (zber frys-cerfreingvba guna qrsvnapr - Snzvyl ntnva.)
Yeah, true. Perhaps not such a good example. I was just looking for
something independent. But I don't think it changes the main point of
Willow passively taking on the dominant role.
OBS
eli...@gmail.com
>volition. And the show really had intended the relationship with Oz to
>continue.
apparently he'd had a whole season arc worked out for Oz, and then had
to rush it. So the end result would probably have been the same, but
the set-up might have been a lot better. But then - as you say - it's
nice that W/T evolves the way it does.
One Bit Shy
news:9Lacg.179815$P01.58270@pd7tw3no...
It's metaphoric. Oz is just the kind of guy who at some point would need to
find himself through a personal journey. Maybe it'd be poetry slams in New
York. Or deck hand on a tramp steamer. Or servant to a guru in Tibet.
Whatever it is, I can't imagine Oz acting as the Slayer's helper
indefinitely. One of these days he'd learn that chord and then he'd need to
do something else.
OBS
eli...@gmail.com
>traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
>so to speak.
ba gb punyyratr ure yvxr arvure Bm naq pregnvayl abg Gnen unq rire qbar!
Paul Hyett
>
>And what's with the shoddy Tibetan craftsmanship? Change Oz so that instead
>of turning lethal predictably 3 nights a month, he changes whenever he gets
>pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer. Can Oz get a refund?
Maybe that compromise was part of the original deal? Oz was pretty
laid-back, so he'd probably figured it would be worth the risk.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
and the Art of Fretboard Magic" if he were not a werewolf, that is. But to
find the inner tranquility he needs to tame the wolfy, an alternative to
chanting alongside the monks is to learn to play transcendental music on the
Chinese quqin or the Indian bansuri flute. But no matter what, he must throw
away all his DragonBall or DragonBall Z DVDs, :)
==Harmony Watcher==
eli...@gmail.com
>Buffy's friends is an essential aspect of the story for me.
Hmm, I see what you're saying, but...
Ohssl\'f sevraqf fgnegrq bss abezny, ohg guebhtu gurve pbaarpgvba jvgu
ure fcha bss va qvssrerag qverpgvbaf guna gurl jbhyq bgurejvfr unir
tbar. Jvyybj jbhyq arire unir tbggra vagb zntvp (naq nyy gung sbyybjrq
ba sebz gurer).
Knaqre vf bs pbhefr gur bar jub \'fgnlf abezny\', ohg rira uvf yvsr
trgf funxra hc qhr gb uvf sevraqfuvc jvgu gur Fynlre.
Vg\'f abg cerggl, ohg vg nyjnlf fgehpx zr nf n ernyvfgvp va gur
pvephzfgnaprf - vs lbh\'er gung pybfr gb gur rcvpragre bs n fgbez,
lbh\'er obhaq gb raq hc qnzntrq.
Apteryx
news:dsample-07A369...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <e4qvsi$rqs$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> And what's with the shoddy Tibetan craftsmanship? Change Oz so that
>> instead
>> of turning lethal predictably 3 nights a month, he changes whenever he
>> gets
>> pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer.
>
> We don't know if it's whenever he gets pissed off. It might still only
> happen during those three days, so he has to take precautions on those
> days not to be around anything that's likely to make him upset.
I think the implication is that the trigger has changed. In fact we know it
has changed in at least one respect - he turns into a wolf during the day.
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
theres an old vulcan proverb
only oz could go to tibet
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
news:1148288486.0...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Vg vfa'g whfg Knaqre gung fgnlf abezny. Tvyrf fgnlf "abezny" (rira vs jr
yrnea gung ur jnf arire nf abezny nf ur frrzrq). Wblpr erznvaf abezny sbe
gur erfg bs ure gvzr va gur frevrf. Pbeqryvn jnf abezny gvyy ybat nsgre fur
yrsg Fhaalqnyr. Rira Qnja, jub jnf pyrneyl abg "abezny" va ernyvgl, jnf fb
va cenpgvpr. Gnen jnf abezny, rira vs fur qvqa'g xabj vg, ncneg sebz (va
pbzcnevfba gb Jvyybj) n yvggyr qnooyvat va zntvp. Naq Naln orpnzr uhzna
(gjvpr) naq jnf uhzna sbe zbfg bs gur frevrf.
Gur bqq bar bhg vf abg Knaqre sbe fgnlvat "abezny", ohg Jvyybj sbe abg.
Svefg jvgu gur jbysvr ybire, naq gura jvgu gur zntvp. Naq bs pbhefr Bm
uvzfrys. Orvat nssrpgrq ol jung unccraf gb naq nebhaq gurz vf bar guvat. Ohg
evinyyvat Ohssl va gur rppragevgl bs ure eryngvbafuvcf naq ure cbjre vf zber
guna gung.
--
Apteryx
(Harmony) Watcher
may or may not have anything to do with the time of day. Maybe the main
trigger now was extreme emotional stress including jealousy. I'm quite sure
that part of the stress Oz experienced was the result of smelling Tara's
scent on Willow (since we have the scene where he was able to pick up
Willow's scent on Tara)!
==Harmony Watcher==
KenM47
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-4D1DB...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
Mnchkn Convention.
==Harmony Watcher==
KenM47
Or getting a chance to put on that particular pair of shoes and really
liking the fit.
Ken (Brooklyn)
eli...@gmail.com
Nu, V frr jung lbh zrna. Ohg gura V guvax gung jvgu ure oenvaf, Jvyybj
jbhyq unir tbar sne, juvpurire ebnq fur\'q tbar qbja (erzrzore
\'Jung\'f Zl Yvar\'?).
Jbhyq ybir gb qvfphff shegure, ohg fnqyl ynpx gvzr.
ajs...@aol.com
between the two. I didn't buy that. I'm sure she was torn over what
to do
about the problem. (And, as you note, she got off easy on that and
got to watch circumstances do all the work.) But she knew who she
wanted."
Then Willow is a total bitch, because she had Tara convinced
that she was going back to boys town.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Apteryx wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I think it was a strategic mistake to make Oz both a werewolf and Willow's
> boyfriend (one or the other would have been fine, but not both). For 2 and a
> half seasons we had a superhero and her relationship with a non-human,
> offset against her normal friends and their normal relationships, or lack
> thereof (normal in the sense of being relationships any viewer might have,
> even if they don't know any vampires or werewolves). The normality of
> Buffy's friends is an essential aspect of the story for me. The running gag
> of Xander being a demon magnet doesn't detract from that, because it is
> that - a running gag.
What about Willow's arc throughout the series so far, starting as a
normal girl, meeting magic, and embracing it as part of herself?
That's been an important part of the show for me. I think after they
met Buffy, our heroes couldn't really be "normal" anymore. But their
thought processes, relationships, etc. are still grounded in the
everyday world.
> And what's with the shoddy Tibetan craftsmanship?
Once again, the magical aid can create as many problems as it solves in
this series.
> Change Oz so that instead
> of turning lethal predictably 3 nights a month, he changes whenever he gets
> pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer. Can Oz get a refund? And given that
> change in him, isn't the Initiative right to want him locked up?
The mechanism isn't clear for me (or perhaps for him). Like others
have said, we don't know whether wolf-izing is a threat outside of the
full-moon cycle, and we don't know how angry he'd need to get, and
whether a change could happen at all without Willow.
> For me its the 130th best BtVS episode, 22nd best in Season 4
Worse than "Doomed" or WTWTA? Well, suit yourself, but...
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
alphakitten wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > The danger excites her... as does the whole "irresistable sexual
> > attraction to a guy" thing,
> I don't see any genuine irresistable sexual attraction in the fluke. The
> second they get caught, the attraction evaporates. They both immediately
> set about trying to win Oz and Cordy back. Neither of them are seen even
> considering the possibility of pursuing a relationship with each other.
Well, yeah, but you can't deny that there was physical attraction there
before that. Of course it was colored by the circumstances; I'd
actually say that the reason it fizzled is even more shaped by those
same circumstances, since everything between them is now irrevocably
tied to the end of "Lovers Walk."
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Presumably a lot of this is because of her demon background. (Though we
> have some reason to believe she wasn't exactly on firm ground in her
> pre-demon days either.) It's just not the way most demons think. If you
> watch closely, you can see some of the same thing in Spike. Of course he's
> devious, scheming and generally nasty too. And there are a lot of things he
> sees better than anybody. But there's also a piece that just doesn't get
> it. One of the many parts of him that I really get a kick out of.
I hadn't thought of Spike in comparison to Anya that way, but it makes
sense.
> A little flash-back to one of your remarks back in Wild At Heart:
>
> > Having Oz realize next episode that he can control the wolf better than
> > he thought would be retcon-ish.
>
> (Please note how nobody responded to that with even a hint of spoilage.) Of
> course this isn't the next episode. But I'm curious if you think now that
> it's at all retcon-ish.
Nope. Regardless of whether or not Oz re-wolfed, enough time has
passed that this episode can build on WAH, not undo it.
> My biggest issue with this episode (biggest being very small in this case)
> is that I never felt Willow being drawn back towards Oz. The outcome was
> never at issue. That's not as bad as it might sound. Mainly that just
> adjusts the story a little to Willow having to make the real commitment to
> Tara and letting the secret out. And bringing closure to Oz. That's fine
> with me. It's enough for Oz's presence to be an uncomfortable complication
> and to serve as catalyst for a Willow/Tara commitment and Riley's second
> break with the Initiative.
>
> But I think parts were intended to suggest that Willow really was torn
> between the two. I didn't buy that. I'm sure she was torn over what to do
> about the problem. (And, as you note, she got off easy on that and
> got to watch circumstances do all the work.) But she knew who she wanted.
I'm not sure I see it that way. The way the episode is written, the
suspense isn't in what Willow wants to do, since despite her
misgivings, she knows she wants to hook up with Tara. The drama isn't
about what she wants so much as what she'll do, whether she'll be able
to articulate that choice and commit to it, like you say above. It's a
nudge in a direction that she's already leaning. I think that
especially if you compare it to Riley's part in the episode, which is
also more about action than decision, you'll see that this is indeed
what NMR is trying to convey.
> But I think that's good. Indeed, it may have forced the show not to take
> the easy way. The way the relationship is actually built is very personal
> and far more than mere sexual preference.
Agreed on that.
> Question. Was there anything in here mentioning Angel's call to Giles? I
> didn't see it.
No. Trying to put together an internal timeline, I think FxF and WAH
start about the same time, and the call happens after WAH.
-AOQ
George W Harris
wrote:
:"But I think parts were intended to suggest that Willow really was torn
No, Tara had herself convinced. She ran
away as soon as Oz showed up, and never talked to
Willow until after Oz left.
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Rowan Hawthorn
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> I think it was a strategic mistake to make Oz both a werewolf and Willow's
>> boyfriend (one or the other would have been fine, but not both). For 2 and a
>> half seasons we had a superhero and her relationship with a non-human,
>> offset against her normal friends and their normal relationships, or lack
>> thereof (normal in the sense of being relationships any viewer might have,
>> even if they don't know any vampires or werewolves). The normality of
>> Buffy's friends is an essential aspect of the story for me. The running gag
>> of Xander being a demon magnet doesn't detract from that, because it is
>> that - a running gag.
>
> What about Willow's arc throughout the series so far, starting as a
> normal girl, meeting magic, and embracing it as part of herself?
> That's been an important part of the show for me.
Yes. One could argue that the series is very nearly as much about
Willow's journey as it is Buffy's.
Stephen Tempest
>Perhaps the real question is why Maggie Walsh picked him as her pet.
To be the male/human component of her supersoldier breeding programme?
Nqnz ertneqf uvz nf n oebgure, nsgre nyy...
Stephen
peachy ashie passion
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>>> BUT on this rewatching it also occurred to me that Tara gave Willow
>>> something she never got from Oz, or even her Xander crush. Something I
>>> never thought of in these terms before.
>>>
>>> With Tara, Willow got to be the dominant one (dare I say the
>>> traditional "male") in the relationship, the one that wears the pants
>>> so to speak.
>>
>>
>> That's one reason I was never 100% happy with their relationship as
>> depicted here
>>
>> Nygubhtu Gnen qrirybcrq n ybg bs frys-pbasvqrapr va frnfba fvk,
>>
>> Naq bs pbhefr Xraarql jnf rknpgyl jung Jvyybj arrqrq va frnfba
>> frira... nygubhtu V fhfcrpg V'yy or nyzbfg nybar va ubyqvat gung
>> bcvavba. <t>
>>
>> Stephen
>
>
> V'ir fnvq gur fnzr guvat - ohg V hfhnyyl znxr fher V unir ybgf bs oyhag
> jrncbaf unaql jura V zragvba vg...
>
Ooooh oooh ooh! We can have a club!! I LOOOOOOOOOOVE it.
And maybe call it a support group, cuz I thought I was all alone in it!
peachy ashie passion
I think, in fact, that this is the only way Willow could take the
dominant role.. by it being assertively handed to her.
rrh...@acme.com
>
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> > review threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
> > (or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
> > Writer: Marti Noxon
> > Director: James A. Contner
> >
>
> >
> > Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
> > Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
> > introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured
> > it'd seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we
> > wouldn't see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of
> > "The I In Team" in particular, I started to feel better about
> > the idea. First, the fact that they're partners in witchcraft
> > has given their relationship a spiritual, sexualized side that's
> > firmly in place by the time of NMR.
> > Second, it's been a very well executed slow build since "Hush,"
> > to the point where We The Viewer could trace Willow beginning to
> > see her friend in that light. There's a line here that sums it
> > up matter-of-factly: "There's something between us. It - it
> > wasn't something I was looking for. It's just powerful."
>
> From what I gather, one reason for the slow build was likely the
> WB's squeamishness about showing anything physical on-screen. Note
> that we STILL haven't even seen them kiss, although it's basically
> been stated that they've already done a lot more than that.
>
> (I agree that the buildup is very well executed. Probably more
> interesting than if Joss had used a more conventional way of
> illustrating their developing romance.)
>
> Another interesting note is (according to Aly in Nikki Stafford's
> book "Bite Me!") that for a major chunk of the arc, Aly and Amber
> weren't entirely sure where the W&T relationship was heading. Aly
> didn't specify when exactly they knew, but it was apparently far
> enough into the arc that it had become frustrating not knowing the
> intended resolution.
>
> Not sure if I mentioned this before, but Joss's initial image of
> the Tara character was very different from Amber. Think it was in
> the Season 5 "Casting Buffy" featurette that Joss described his
> initial image of the character as "tiny and birdlike". According
> to Joss, Marti Noxon lobbied for Amber and helped convince him to
> give her a callback.
Interesting. I either forgot that or never watched that featurette.
What does the "death to Marti!" faction make of that factoid, I wonder?
Richard R. Hershberger
Don Sample
I think you mean NMR there. (After all this time, I'm having trouble
remembering all the TLAs for episode titles...it gets even more
confusing in season 6, when we start reusing some of the old ones.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
peachy ashie passion
Naq V jbhyq nethr gung jvgubhg Gnen nf n fgrccvat fgbar, Jvyybj pbhyq
arire unir orra noyr gb evfr gb gur punyyratr bs Xraarql.
rrh...@acme.com
Opus the Penguin wrote:
> Stephen Tempest (ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>Now, thanks to the wonderful world of spoilers, I've known that
> >>Willow and Tara would get together since long before Tara was
> >>introduced. I wasn't looking forward to that, since I figured
> >>it'd seem forced; if Willow were bi, what're the odds that we
> >>wouldn't see any hint of it over three and a half seasons of
> >>adolescence?
> >
> >
> > When we meet Willow, she clearly thinks of herself as
> > heterosexual, but she hasn't actually had a relationship with a
> > boy, ever, from what we can see.
> >
> > She does have a crush on a male friend she's known from childhood,
> > who sees her as a sister and has no sexual feelings for her. Can
> > we say "safe, familiar and unthreatening"?
> >
> > Then she meets Oz, who is cool because he plays lead guitar in a
> > band, and is interested in her. Willow gets to drop the phrase
> > "my boyriend" into every second conversation she has. Can we say
> > "looking for social approval"?
> >
> > Of course, it's important to note just how laid-back and
> > non-sexual Oz is. The two big emotional moments in their
> > relationship are when Willow makes a sexual advance to Oz and he
> > _turns her down_, because he senses that she's not doing it out of
> > actual passion but just to make a point...
> >
> > Not that Willow is completely uninterested in sex. She certainly
> > shows an endless fascination with _Buffy's_ sex life. Can we say
> > "Hmmm"?
> >
> > She does have the brief fluke with Xander, partly because he's
> > suddenly interested in her. She knows they're both in
> > relationships and it's wrong - but it's not as if doing something
> > slightly illicit and against the rules ever got Willow excited, is
> > it?
> >
> > Then there's the moment she finally loses her virginity with Oz,
> > the night before the apocalypse. Can we say "exception for
> > impending death situations"?
> >
> > And the two of them are sleeping together for about four months,
> > maximum, before Oz leaves her for another woman. A woman who
> > revels in her animal sexuality . Can we say "wonder if that's a
> > metaphor for what Oz felt was missing in his relationship with
> > Willow? And if so, since she's clearly a passionate person, I
> > wonder why her heart wasn't in it?"?
> >
> >
> >
> > So, any hints there? Maybe the odd one or two? :)
>
> Not really. But it's a good retcon.
Indeed, it is a splendid retcon! A retcon for the ages! Had I only
seen the earlier seasons once or twice I might nearly have believed it.
For whatever it is worth, I buy the idea that Joss had this as a
possibility all along. I don't buy that Willow's relationship with Oz
was ever for a moment intended as a tepid lesbian-in-the-closet (even
to herself) charade. If it was understated, well, come on: it's
Willow and Oz.
Richard R. Hershberger
(Harmony) Watcher
was, somehow, more magic-related, as learning some eastern magic from
Tibetan monks. That may or may not be true depending on what one means by
"magic". For me, it's more likely that Oz learned the basics of
transcendental meditation which might have helped him to find his inner
peace and to control his otherwise boiling senses three nights a month.
<rest snipped>
==Harmony Watcher==
One Bit Shy
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
I had rambled on so much already that I pretty much left off the Riley part.
Now I'm glad I did. That's a really good connection that had slipped my
awareness before. Better than anything I had to offer. That's the stuff
that makes the series so rewatchable. Always another subtlety to find.
Anyway, how you describe the Willow dilemma is just how I feel about the
situation and where the drama is to be found. But I still sense that the
show attempts to push the notion some that the choice of who was in doubt.
I think this is especially evident in the Willow/Tara interlude before Oz
turns wolf. (When Willow scents up Tara. I do like how Oz finds out.)
WILLOW: I don't know. I just - life was starting to get so good again,
and -- You're a big part of that. And here comes the thing I wanted most of
all, and... I don't know what to do, I ... I wanna know, but I don't.
I'm sure part of this is to keep Tara convinced Willow will go with Oz - a
dramatic necessity to make the end work. And I do realize that the scene as
a whole serves as a kind of half step towards finally telling Tara that she
really wants her. But Willow can't complete the step. Not with Oz here...
You know, as I think through this, I think I just figured out my problem.
And I feel kind of dumb. It's the sexual orientation issue - a lot more
important here than I had given it credit for. I had been thinking Willow
was blocked by the fear of facing Oz with the truth. (Which to a large
extent she is. Willow doesn't like confrontation where any light is shined
on her.) But the larger block is simply admitting her sexual orientation.
That's what's going on. That's the crux of her revelation to Buffy. And
telling her not so long ago lover that has got to be terrifying. And, most
of all, saying yes to Tara is admitting to herself that she's gay. Damn.
It's so obvious. The show had so understated that aspect from Hush on that
I couldn't see it when it was the elephant in the living room here.
I think I need to retire from this analysis gig.
OBS
KenM47
Rowan Hawthorn
Works for me.
Rowan Hawthorn
>
>
> Anyway, how you describe the Willow dilemma is just how I feel about the
> situation and where the drama is to be found. But I still sense that the
> show attempts to push the notion some that the choice of who was in doubt.
> I think this is especially evident in the Willow/Tara interlude before Oz
> turns wolf. (When Willow scents up Tara. I do like how Oz finds out.)
Yeah, and the first thing that went through my mind was, "But she
doesn't even wear perfume... oh, yeah. I'll be in my bunk. Again..."
>
> WILLOW: I don't know. I just - life was starting to get so good again,
> and -- You're a big part of that. And here comes the thing I wanted most of
> all, and... I don't know what to do, I ... I wanna know, but I don't.
>
> I'm sure part of this is to keep Tara convinced Willow will go with Oz - a
> dramatic necessity to make the end work. And I do realize that the scene as
> a whole serves as a kind of half step towards finally telling Tara that she
> really wants her. But Willow can't complete the step. Not with Oz here...
Well, there's also Willow's reluctance to let go, even when she's "moved
on." (As in her fluking with Xander, and sitting in the restroom crying
when she found out about Xander and Faith, even though she was with Oz
by then.
>
> You know, as I think through this, I think I just figured out my problem.
> And I feel kind of dumb. It's the sexual orientation issue - a lot more
> important here than I had given it credit for. I had been thinking Willow
> was blocked by the fear of facing Oz with the truth. (Which to a large
> extent she is. Willow doesn't like confrontation where any light is shined
> on her.) But the larger block is simply admitting her sexual orientation.
Of course. Willow - for all the changes she's gone through with the
magick, and the new self-assurance, and the moving away from her old
nerdhood - really doesn't like upsetting the status quo. She *also*
tends to see things in black and white even while casting them in shades
of gray. That's why the fans who insist "Willow is really bi" are, IMO,
probably right, but missing the point with their complaints about how
her protestations of "Gay now!" just don't ring true: her assertions are
likely meant to convince *herself* as much as anybody else; I can't see
Willow going from "I like boys!" to "I like girls!" to "Oh, I like
both!" without a whole lot of struggling.
> That's what's going on. That's the crux of her revelation to Buffy. And
> telling her not so long ago lover that has got to be terrifying. And, most
> of all, saying yes to Tara is admitting to herself that she's gay. Damn.
> It's so obvious. The show had so understated that aspect from Hush on that
> I couldn't see it when it was the elephant in the living room here.
>
> I think I need to retire from this analysis gig.
Nah, you just need another marathon of the entire series... :-)
Eric Hunter
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> threads.
>
>
>
>
> This one's not for me. I never really liked any of the werewolf
> stories much,
>
> And what's with the shoddy Tibetan craftsmanship? Change Oz
> he changes whenever he gets pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer.
Lycanthropy is not always solely linked to the moon.
There are many stories of "experienced" werewolves
who can resist the change during the full moon, and
change at other times when threatened, or even at
will.
> given that change in him, isn't the Initiative right to want
> him locked up? Compare to someone with a mental illness such
> that he can function normally most of the time, but whenever put
> under severe emotional stress, he kills. And do we know that people
> bitten by Oz in future but not killed won't become the same kind of
> werewolf as him (triggered by emotion rather than phases of the
> moon)? If they are, then Buffy has released a far more dangerous
> monster than Adam.
We know very little about lycanthropy in the Buffyverse,
and almost all of it is based on the fairly atypical Oz, but,
if Oz learned to control his inner-wolf, than others could
to, and it is not unreasonable to assume that a lycan with
anger-management issues would tend to change not just
when the moon was full, but whenever he got really angry.
The wolf is always there, and even the Initiative suspected
that the change wasn't strictly tied to the moon.
Eric.
--
peachy ashie passion
Yay!! Club meeing at the Bronze?
drifter
I think they're spraying for cockroaches.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
(Harmony) Watcher
"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JJmdnTwkR-4...@giganews.com...
both. I'd think thoughts along these lines must be rushing through her mind
when she was crying in the bathroom:
*Why did Xander leave the "I-hate-Cordelia-Club"
and slept with Cordy?
*Why did Xander sleep with murderous Faith but not
sweet Willow?
*There must be something wrong with Willow.
*Willow must be just an old reliable, doormat person
and homework gal!
And look at how anger took over her and she used words to attack Faith
despite the fact that her own life was in danger in Choices:
http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1371
Or just another round of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7da1d5MPK7A
==Harmony Watcher==
Eric Hunter
> My biggest issue with this episode (biggest being very small in this
> case) is that I never felt Willow being drawn back towards Oz.
I don't think she was, but he's still her first boyfriend
and first lover, and he will always have a special place
in her heart, so the fact that went on this quest to learn
to control his inner-wolf, and he came back to her is
huge.
> The outcome was never at issue. That's not as bad as it might sound.
> Mainly that just adjusts the story a little to Willow having to make
> the real commitment to Tara and letting the secret out. And bringing
> closure to Oz. That's fine with me. It's enough for Oz's presence
> to be an uncomfortable complication and to serve as catalyst for a
> Willow/Tara commitment and Riley's second break with the Initiative.
Right.
> But I think parts were intended to suggest that Willow really was torn
> between the two. I didn't buy that. I'm sure she was torn over what
> to do about the problem. But she knew who she wanted.
Oz returning, in this way, was a dream come true for Willow.
It was something she wanted desperately, even as she was
falling in love with Tara. So, what she was torn about, I think,
was the cognitive dissonance between finally having what she
wanted, and discovering that she didn't want it any more. She
probably didn't realize how strong her feelings for Tara were,
until she was faced with the choice.
Eric
--
Arbitrar Of Quality
KenM47 wrote:
> rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> >
> >For whatever it is worth, I buy the idea that Joss had this as a
> >possibility all along. I don't buy that Willow's relationship with Oz
> >was ever for a moment intended as a tepid lesbian-in-the-closet (even
> >to herself) charade. If it was understated, well, come on: it's
> >Willow and Oz.
> >
> >Richard R. Hershberger
>
> IAWTP
Seconded.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I think I need to retire from this analysis gig.
Nooooooo!
Besides, you're working freelance anyway.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"Eric Hunter" <hunt...@comcast.invalid> wrote:
> We know very little about lycanthropy in the Buffyverse,
> and almost all of it is based on the fairly atypical Oz, but,
> if Oz learned to control his inner-wolf, than others could
> to, and it is not unreasonable to assume that a lycan with
> anger-management issues would tend to change not just
> when the moon was full, but whenever he got really angry.
> The wolf is always there, and even the Initiative suspected
> that the change wasn't strictly tied to the moon.
>
> Eric.
Well, they did have that big honking clue of having captured him during
daylight.
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> Perhaps she was more angry at Xander than jealous. It's likely a mixture of
> both. I'd think thoughts along these lines must be rushing through her mind
> when she was crying in the bathroom:
>
> *Why did Xander leave the "I-hate-Cordelia-Club"
> and slept with Cordy?
Xander never slept with Cordy. (Using the usual euphemistic meaning for
"slept with" which doesn't include actual sleeping. Maybe back in
Kindergarten they had neighbouring mats during nap-time.)
One Bit Shy
>>
>>
>> Anyway, how you describe the Willow dilemma is just how I feel about the
>> situation and where the drama is to be found. But I still sense that the
>> show attempts to push the notion some that the choice of who was in
>> doubt. I think this is especially evident in the Willow/Tara interlude
>> before Oz turns wolf. (When Willow scents up Tara. I do like how Oz
>> finds out.)
>
> Yeah, and the first thing that went through my mind was, "But she doesn't
> even wear perfume... oh, yeah. I'll be in my bunk. Again..."
You better stay there. You've seen what happens to guys that get between
Willow and Tara.
Wait a minute. I don't think that came out quite right.
>> You know, as I think through this, I think I just figured out my problem.
>> And I feel kind of dumb. It's the sexual orientation issue - a lot more
>> important here than I had given it credit for. I had been thinking
>> Willow was blocked by the fear of facing Oz with the truth. (Which to a
>> large extent she is. Willow doesn't like confrontation where any light
>> is shined on her.) But the larger block is simply admitting her sexual
>> orientation.
>
> Of course.
Yeah, yeah. Of course you say, "Of course." Rub it in.
> Willow - for all the changes she's gone through with the magick, and the
> new self-assurance, and the moving away from her old nerdhood - really
> doesn't like upsetting the status quo. She *also* tends to see things in
> black and white even while casting them in shades of gray. That's why the
> fans who insist "Willow is really bi" are, IMO, probably right, but
> missing the point with their complaints about how her protestations of
> "Gay now!" just don't ring true: her assertions are likely meant to
> convince *herself* as much as anybody else; I can't see Willow going from
> "I like boys!" to "I like girls!" to "Oh, I like both!" without a whole
> lot of struggling.
I've never much cared about the question. But it's funny, thinking back to
the fluke, I've always kind of assumed in the back of my head that if Willow
and Xander were caught alone again in an impending death situation that
they'd take the exemption.
>> That's what's going on. That's the crux of her revelation to Buffy. And
>> telling her not so long ago lover that has got to be terrifying. And,
>> most of all, saying yes to Tara is admitting to herself that she's gay.
>> Damn. It's so obvious. The show had so understated that aspect from Hush
>> on that I couldn't see it when it was the elephant in the living room
>> here.
>>
>> I think I need to retire from this analysis gig.
>
> Nah, you just need another marathon of the entire series... :-)
I live in an apartment and I sometimes wonder what my neighbors must think
constantly hearing the Buffy theme song through the walls.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:JJmdnTwkR-4...@giganews.com...
>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, how you describe the Willow dilemma is just how I feel about the
>>> situation and where the drama is to be found. But I still sense that the
>>> show attempts to push the notion some that the choice of who was in
>>> doubt. I think this is especially evident in the Willow/Tara interlude
>>> before Oz turns wolf. (When Willow scents up Tara. I do like how Oz
>>> finds out.)
>> Yeah, and the first thing that went through my mind was, "But she doesn't
>> even wear perfume... oh, yeah. I'll be in my bunk. Again..."
>
> You better stay there. You've seen what happens to guys that get between
> Willow and Tara.
>
> Wait a minute. I don't think that came out quite right.
Oh, yeah, it did! Willow-Tara sandwich! <eyes glaze over>
>
>
>>> You know, as I think through this, I think I just figured out my problem.
>>> And I feel kind of dumb. It's the sexual orientation issue - a lot more
>>> important here than I had given it credit for. I had been thinking
>>> Willow was blocked by the fear of facing Oz with the truth. (Which to a
>>> large extent she is. Willow doesn't like confrontation where any light
>>> is shined on her.) But the larger block is simply admitting her sexual
>>> orientation.
>> Of course.
>
> Yeah, yeah. Of course you say, "Of course." Rub it in.
Sorry. Just a *little* rub.
>
>
>> Willow - for all the changes she's gone through with the magick, and the
>> new self-assurance, and the moving away from her old nerdhood - really
>> doesn't like upsetting the status quo. She *also* tends to see things in
>> black and white even while casting them in shades of gray. That's why the
>> fans who insist "Willow is really bi" are, IMO, probably right, but
>> missing the point with their complaints about how her protestations of
>> "Gay now!" just don't ring true: her assertions are likely meant to
>> convince *herself* as much as anybody else; I can't see Willow going from
>> "I like boys!" to "I like girls!" to "Oh, I like both!" without a whole
>> lot of struggling.
>
> I've never much cared about the question.
Me, neither, and it doesn't really matter. Beyond a physical and
emotional attraction to both sexes (or not,) I think it's pretty clear
that for Willow, a good deal of what attracts her to someone is having
someone, male or female, who actually *sees* her for herself, and not
just her talents. In *her* mind, anyway: *we* know that Buffy and
Xander and Giles think the world of her regardless of whether or not
she's Computer Girl or Super Witch, but Willow's insecurity doesn't let
her think that way.
> But it's funny, thinking back to
> the fluke, I've always kind of assumed in the back of my head that if Willow
> and Xander were caught alone again in an impending death situation that
> they'd take the exemption.
>
Probably. At least up until Willow discovered how much Tara *really*
meant to her; after that, I don't know.
>
>>> That's what's going on. That's the crux of her revelation to Buffy. And
>>> telling her not so long ago lover that has got to be terrifying. And,
>>> most of all, saying yes to Tara is admitting to herself that she's gay.
>>> Damn. It's so obvious. The show had so understated that aspect from Hush
>>> on that I couldn't see it when it was the elephant in the living room
>>> here.
>>>
>>> I think I need to retire from this analysis gig.
>> Nah, you just need another marathon of the entire series... :-)
>
> I live in an apartment and I sometimes wonder what my neighbors must think
> constantly hearing the Buffy theme song through the walls.
I had the same thought, but I solved that problem - a 13" LCD TV on the
corner of my desk with headphones... :-)
ajs...@aol.com
thought Willow was going to choose Oz over her.
So why didn't Willow reassure Tara? Did she lack the english skills
to say "I won't leave you?"
Did she not care about causing Tara pain?
Or was Tara right?
I know which option makes the most sense considering Willow's
characterization over the years.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-0D5A34...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <_prcg.182247$P01.87728@pd7tw3no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps she was more angry at Xander than jealous. It's likely a mixture
of
> > both. I'd think thoughts along these lines must be rushing through her
mind
> > when she was crying in the bathroom:
> >
> > *Why did Xander leave the "I-hate-Cordelia-Club"
> > and slept with Cordy?
>
> Xander never slept with Cordy. (Using the usual euphemistic meaning for
> "slept with" which doesn't include actual sleeping. Maybe back in
> Kindergarten they had neighbouring mats during nap-time.)
>
base" with Cordelia? On a related note, is there conclusive evidence that
Faith took Xander's virginity? Qb lbh guvax Cunagbz Qraavf tbg zber rlr
pnaqvrf guna Knaqre sebz Pbeql!?
==Harmony Watcher==
Eric Hunter
> In article <ycadnZy_V-O...@comcast.com>,
> "Eric Hunter" <hunt...@comcast.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The wolf is always there, and even the Initiative suspected
>> that the change wasn't strictly tied to the moon.
>
> captured him during daylight.
Yes, but I was referring to this:
DOC 2: I always suspected that stuff about werewolf transformations
being based on a lunar cycle was campfire talk.
(Doc 2 puts the tip of the instrument on Oz's chest and zaps him with
electricity. Oz screams and turns into the werewolf.)
DOC 2: See that? Transformation related to negative stimulation.
Not, "I always figured that the stuff about werewolf transformations
being based on a lunar cycle was legit, I guess I was wrong."
I see a clear implication that Oz's ability to control his
transformation, and his loss of control, upon discovering
Willow's lie of omission, is not unique to Oz, but that it
is something any werewolf could achieve.
Eric.
--
KenM47
>
>"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
>news:dsample-0D5A34...@news.giganews.com...
>> In article <_prcg.182247$P01.87728@pd7tw3no>,
>> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Perhaps she was more angry at Xander than jealous. It's likely a mixture
>of
>> > both. I'd think thoughts along these lines must be rushing through her
>mind
>> > when she was crying in the bathroom:
>> >
>> > *Why did Xander leave the "I-hate-Cordelia-Club"
>> > and slept with Cordy?
>>
>> Xander never slept with Cordy. (Using the usual euphemistic meaning for
>> "slept with" which doesn't include actual sleeping. Maybe back in
>> Kindergarten they had neighbouring mats during nap-time.)
>>
>How would Willow even know whether or not Xander had gotten through "third
>base" with Cordelia? On a related note, is there conclusive evidence that
>Faith took Xander's virginity? Qb lbh guvax Cunagbz Qraavf tbg zber rlr
>pnaqvrf guna Knaqre sebz Pbeql!?
>
>==Harmony Watcher==
>
Xander's:
"Xander <nods>: Oh, I’m up.
<Faith smiles at him and gets closer. She stops rubbing
his chest and lowers her hand to his crotch.>
Xander: I’m suddenly very up. It’s just, um...<grins
sheepishly> I’ve never been up with people before.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-0D5A34...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <_prcg.182247$P01.87728@pd7tw3no>,
> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps she was more angry at Xander than jealous. It's likely a mixture
> of
> > > both. I'd think thoughts along these lines must be rushing through her
> mind
> > > when she was crying in the bathroom:
> > >
> > > *Why did Xander leave the "I-hate-Cordelia-Club"
> > > and slept with Cordy?
> >
> > Xander never slept with Cordy. (Using the usual euphemistic meaning for
> > "slept with" which doesn't include actual sleeping. Maybe back in
> > Kindergarten they had neighbouring mats during nap-time.)
> >
> How would Willow even know whether or not Xander had gotten through "third
> base" with Cordelia?
Xander and Willow tell each other everything.
> On a related note, is there conclusive evidence that
> Faith took Xander's virginity?
Other than Xander telling Faith "Oh, I'm up. I'm suddenly very up.
It's just, um...I've never been up with people before"?
> Qb lbh guvax Cunagbz Qraavf tbg zber rlr
> pnaqvrf guna Knaqre sebz Pbeql!?
Jr frr uvz fpehoovat ure onpx va gur ongu, va n shgher rcvfbqr. V
nyjnlf jbaqrerq vs ur cebivqrq bgure freivprf sbe ure.
Arbitrar Of Quality
ajs...@aol.com wrote:
> It was obvious from a conversation between Willow and Tara that Tara
> thought Willow was going to choose Oz over her.
>
> So why didn't Willow reassure Tara? Did she lack the english skills
> to say "I won't leave you?"
Pretty much, at least then. She wasn't quite ready to start a
relationship while giving up what she'd been dreaming of for months,
and on top of that was still coming to terms with being bisexual. I
don't see any need to read anything more sinister than that into it.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
> In article <kDvcg.183828$WI1.183213@pd7tw2no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> > news:dsample-0D5A34...@news.giganews.com...
> > > In article <_prcg.182247$P01.87728@pd7tw3no>,
> > > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps she was more angry at Xander than jealous. It's likely a
mixture
> > of
> > > > both. I'd think thoughts along these lines must be rushing through
her
> > mind
> > > > when she was crying in the bathroom:
> > > >
> > > > *Why did Xander leave the "I-hate-Cordelia-Club"
> > > > and slept with Cordy?
> > >
> > > Xander never slept with Cordy. (Using the usual euphemistic meaning
for
> > > "slept with" which doesn't include actual sleeping. Maybe back in
> > > Kindergarten they had neighbouring mats during nap-time.)
> > >
> > How would Willow even know whether or not Xander had gotten through
"third
> > base" with Cordelia?
>
> Xander and Willow tell each other everything.
>
Willow did right after the Faith-n-Xander motel scene.
==Harmony Watcher==
Rowan Hawthorn
Exactly. Willow was in *seriously* bad shape when Oz left, and for some
time thereafter. Then with absolutely no warning, no notice, she hasn't
even heard from him in months, he shows up. Considering Willow's
history of how she deals with stress, I'd find it more out of place if
she *hadn't* been in a bit of a quandary.
Apteryx
>
> Apteryx wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1148185935.0...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Willow's
>> boyfriend (one or the other would have been fine, but not both). For 2
>> and a
>> half seasons we had a superhero and her relationship with a non-human,
>> offset against her normal friends and their normal relationships, or lack
>> thereof (normal in the sense of being relationships any viewer might
>> have,
>> even if they don't know any vampires or werewolves). The normality of
>> Buffy's friends is an essential aspect of the story for me. The running
>> gag
>> of Xander being a demon magnet doesn't detract from that, because it is
>> that - a running gag.
>
> What about Willow's arc throughout the series so far, starting as a
> normal girl, meeting magic, and embracing it as part of herself?
> That's been an important part of the show for me. I think after they
> met Buffy, our heroes couldn't really be "normal" anymore. But their
> thought processes, relationships, etc. are still grounded in the
> everyday world.
When superheroes' sidekicks remain completely imaginery, or in print, there
is much less likely to be any suggestion that they should aquire powers
themselves. Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen with X-ray vision? That isn't what they
are in the story for. They are regular people that readers/audience can
relate to, who have the super hero friend that the readers/audience mostly
don't.
But as soon as you get actors portraying those characters, who would quite
like to be doing a bit more, or screenwriters looking for an easy way to
show the character's growth, you start to get superpower creep. I don't like
it
>> Change Oz so that instead
>> of turning lethal predictably 3 nights a month, he changes whenever he
>> gets
>> pissed off? Yeh, that's much safer. Can Oz get a refund? And given that
>> change in him, isn't the Initiative right to want him locked up?
>
> The mechanism isn't clear for me (or perhaps for him). Like others
> have said, we don't know whether wolf-izing is a threat outside of the
> full-moon cycle, and we don't know how angry he'd need to get, and
> whether a change could happen at all without Willow.
We know at least that. We know an electric shock can do it.
>> For me its the 130th best BtVS episode, 22nd best in Season 4
>
> Worse than "Doomed" or WTWTA? Well, suit yourself, but...
The writers of those episodes provided entertainment on the side for anyone
who didn't like the A story (which was a lot). They largely forgot to do
that for NMR. Even so, as I said in my comments on WTWTA, it was once my
least favourite. There is a total of a least 5 episodes that I can think of
that either are or have been my least liked Season 4 episode at one time or
another (in contrast Hush has always been my favourite Season 4 episode). I
don't think my rating of NMR has lowered at all since I first saw it to
cause it to now be the episode in that position (in fact I think my rating
for it has risen). It is just that the 4 other episodes that once ranked
below it (Wild At Heart, Goodbye Iowa, WTWTA, and one still to come) have
overtaken it when re-rated on re-viewing.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:UaOdnYAxYeYMG-_Z...@comcast.com...
> Don Sample wrote:
>> In article <ycadnZy_V-O...@comcast.com>,
>> "Eric Hunter" <hunt...@comcast.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> The wolf is always there, and even the Initiative suspected
>>> that the change wasn't strictly tied to the moon.
>>
>> Well, they did have that big honking clue of having
>> captured him during daylight.
>
> Yes, but I was referring to this:
>
> DOC 2: I always suspected that stuff about werewolf transformations
> being based on a lunar cycle was campfire talk.
>
> (Doc 2 puts the tip of the instrument on Oz's chest and zaps him with
> electricity. Oz screams and turns into the werewolf.)
>
> DOC 2: See that? Transformation related to negative stimulation.
If he hadn't had that theory, he wouldn't have had any reason to zap Ox
(unless he was just like that). The scriptwriters would have had to go to
Doc 3 (or necessary Doc 103) until they found one who did think that.
I just figured he was an idiot with a theory that was wrong in general, but
happened to fit the particular specimen before. It wouldn't be the first
time that ever happened.
But in one respect it doesn't matter whether all werewolves were always
prone to change ny negative stimuli, or whether it is just Oz, post Tibet.
The gang assumed that Oz did change only under the full moon, and made
precautions to live alongside him on that basis. If Oz (now or always)
changes on negative stimuli alone, he is not safe for anyone to be around,
and shouldn't be let loose.
--
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
>Indeed, it is a splendid retcon! A retcon for the ages! Had I only
>seen the earlier seasons once or twice I might nearly have believed it.
Thank you. :) But I can't take all the credit - the writers of the
first three seasons gave me so much material that fitted right into
place, that the retcon almost wrote itself...
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>>> Ooooh oooh ooh! We can have a club!! I LOOOOOOOOOOVE it.
>>>
>>> And maybe call it a support group, cuz I thought I was all alone in it!
>>
>>
>> Works for me.
>>
>
>
> Yay!! Club meeing at the Bronze?
I'm in. We can have incredibly alcoholic orangey-coloured cocktails
with umbrellas and stuff in them!
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Xander and Willow tell each other everything.
Not *quite* everything:
XANDER: So, uh, you and Oz, how can I put this... are we on first,
second or, ye gods?
WILLOW: That is none of your business, Alexander Harris.
XANDER (impressed): Oh, rounding second.
WILLOW: You don't know that. What about you and Cordelia?
XANDER: A gentleman never talks about his conquests.
>> On a related note, is there conclusive evidence that
>> Faith took Xander's virginity?
>
>Other than Xander telling Faith "Oh, I'm up. I'm suddenly very up.
>It's just, um...I've never been up with people before"?
And also, from later:
"Lrnu, jurarire fur fgnegf gnyxva' 'obhg trggva' nyy fjrngl jvgu
Knaqre yvxr gung, V whfg erzvaq ure V unq uvz svefg. Fuhgf ure evtug
gur uryy hc."
Stephen
peachy ashie passion
Drinks with umbrellas! You are so speaking my language!!!
DysgraphicProgrammer
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Four, Episode 19: "New Moon Rising"
> (or "A love triangle we can all enjoy")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
<big snip>
> The hell with it. I'll be in my bunk.
Goes well with:
KNAQRE: Fbzrgvzrf V guvax nobhg gjb jbzra qbvat n fcryy ... naq gura V
qb n fcryy ol zlfrys.
ajs...@aol.com
relationship while giving up what she'd been dreaming of for months,
and on top of that was still coming to terms with being bisexual. I
don't see any need to read anything more sinister than that into it."
Okay, that's one vote for Willow showing less succor to her
girlfriend then she's repeatedly shown to an insane vampire who had
kidnapped her and tried to kill her and her friends on multiple
occasions.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, because in my opinion
Willow wouldn't do that to Spike, much less Tara.
If however Tara was right, then there was just no succor to give.
vague disclaimer
"ajs...@aol.com" <ajs...@aol.com> wrote:
> It was obvious from a conversation between Willow and Tara that Tara
> thought Willow was going to choose Oz over her.
>
> So why didn't Willow reassure Tara?
Because at that point Willow wasn't sure?
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
ajs...@aol.com
That's exactly my point. Someone stated the theory that Willow
never intended to take Oz back.
Never mind that Willow had three conversations with three different
people in that episode and Oz, Buffy, and Tara all left thinking that
Oz had a shot.
That theory also requires that Willow hurt Oz by leading him on,
tortured Tara by allowing her to think she was about to be dumped,
mislead Buffy for no reason, and apparantly didn't feel the slightest
bit of guilt for hurting both of the loves of her life by misleading
them. Willow, whose first response is to comfort her mortal enemy,
letting Tara be tortured by false information that she could clear up
with a simple sentence. I don't think so.
Personally between the interpretation that Willow still had feelings
for Oz and the interpretation that requires that Willow acted like a
sociopathic compulsive liar I know which I think makes sense.
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Because at that point Willow wasn't sure?"
>
> That's exactly my point. Someone stated the theory that Willow
> never intended to take Oz back.
I must have missed that somewhere in the three or four posts relating to
this. What I saw people saying was that Willow knew by this time that
she wanted Tara, but was torn between the old love and the new. We all
know Willow has problems letting go, and as broken up as she was when Oz
left, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that she doesn't still
have some emotional attachment there.
>
> Never mind that Willow had three conversations with three different
> people in that episode and Oz, Buffy, and Tara all left thinking that
> Oz had a shot.
>
> That theory also requires that Willow hurt Oz by leading him on,
> tortured Tara by allowing her to think she was about to be dumped,
> mislead Buffy for no reason, and apparantly didn't feel the slightest
> bit of guilt for hurting both of the loves of her life by misleading
> them. Willow, whose first response is to comfort her mortal enemy,
> letting Tara be tortured by false information that she could clear up
> with a simple sentence. I don't think so.
>
> Personally between the interpretation that Willow still had feelings
> for Oz and the interpretation that requires that Willow acted like a
> sociopathic compulsive liar I know which I think makes sense.
>
Christ, another one of these. Since you're the only one who's even
*mentioned* the second one, I take it that's the winner, then, huh?