Normal Again proves Buffy is in the hospital
Alberich
random choices. I'm glad I had the chance to see "Normal Again" and
"Villains" back to back. Because it's clear there is a connection
between them. The key is in the episode "Normal Again".
I was surprised to see the phrase "your world is breaking down" and
"your friends are going mad." Keep this in mind when you think about
these episodes. It's because these are clues to the final season on
Buffy. It all starts with the end of Season 5. When the Scoobies are
fighting Glory, we last see Glory in all her "madness" and we simply
assumed that Glory was a "mad" god. But taken in context with "Normal
Again", it's clear there's a connection. From the end of season 5, the
emphasis was on the slow deterioration of the characters delving into
their dark sides. So when I watched "Normal Again" I was intrigued by
one fact: when Buffy wanted to end her stay in the hospital, she
promised she'd do everything in her power to "overcome" her friends who
were keeping her trapped in the fictional world of Sunnydale. They were
part of Buffy's "madness". All of her friends don't exist. In fact, they
are all manifestations of Buffy's madness. If we believe "Normal Again"
to be the real Buffy Summers locked in the mental institution, then it
should not come as a complete surprise that the most normal person in
Buffy's "world" is Tara. It's an important clue that Tara is the one who
keeps Buffy "trapped" in her world. She's the outsider, the non Scoobie
who gives the Sunnydale world credence and its depth. Buffy in her fight
to destroy her Sunnydale world was able to capture Xander, Dawn and
Willow. She locks them into the cellar…a classic reference to the
subconscious mind that has deep, dark desires. In "Normal World" the
Buffy in the hospital has doubts about leaving the Sunnydale of her
creation, and that's why there's Tara. Because it was only Tara that was
able to free Buffy from destroying her own Wonderland because Buffy
herself didn't want to give it up. Tara was Buffy's consciousness not
wanting to give up Sunnydale.
Tara was the manifestation of Sunnydale becoming reality and normalcy
for the Buffy locked in the mental institution. It was a natural growth
in Buffy's world to have her friends starting to develop relationships
that created the sense that Buffy's world was indeed, real. But the
Buffy in the hospital is undergoing treatments, therapy and constant
supervision in the hopes of helping her come out of the delusion of
being the "Slayer". Toward the end of "Normal Again", Buffy's doctor
urges Buffy to do "whatever it takes" to kill the fictional world of
friends she's created in the 6 years she's been in the hospital. Now
here's the irony: it was Tara that helped Buffy decide to continue
living in her dreamworld, but it was Tara that pays the ultimate price:
Buffy killed Tara. Not Warren. If "Normal Again" is to be believed, then
everything that happened since Tara's death is a long drawn out campaign
from Buffy herself in ridding herself of everything that exists in her
dreamworld that's encouraging her to carry on in the Sunnydale of her
imagination. So, the killing of Tara was Buffy's doing. She "imagined" a
scenario that Buffy herself created that allowed her to kill off Tara.
By doing this Buffy has snuffed out the one person that made Sunnydale
real. Killing Tara was an important step for Buffy to take…but it had to
look like it was from an outsider…and not Buffy herself. Others have to
do the dirty deeds to help Buffy from feeling the guilt in killing off
her friends one by one. So Tara was the first victim in Buffy's campaign
to rid of herself the imaginary world she's created while in the mental
institution. This whole season is about Buffy using the "First/Morphy"
as her defence mechanism in killing off the Slayer line as well as
killing off her friends. When Buffy starts to regret what she's
doing…and this will manifest itself when Buffy reunites with Spike down
the line…Buffy will become possessed by the First/Morphy. Buffy will
realize once she gets back to Spike that she must destroy the Sunnydale
world she's inhabited. Because in the line from "Normal Again", Buffy
taunted Dawn saying "having a relationship with a vampire isn't your
idea of crazy?" is the clue. When Buffy reunites with Spike, she'll
realize that she IS crazy and must rid herself of everybody in the
Sunnydale world she's come to love because she wants to be normal. Buffy
will become possessed by the First/Morphy. Morphy is Buffy's
consciousness fighting the dreamworld Buffy has created because Buffy
herself cannot be held responsible for what happens to her friends. It
has to be an "outsider" that does in her "family" hence the Big Bad -
which in this case for Season 7 is The First. The shocking conclusion to
Season 7 will be the revelation that the Big Bad is Buffy
herself…because she chooses to end the world she's known for 7 years
while in the mental institution.
And if you don't believe the above..ask yourself this question: At the
end of "Normal Again" the Buffy in the Sunnydale world asks Willow to
make the antidote drink for her to take so that she can be sure she's
"cured" from seeing the hallucinations. Well, why would it be necessary
for the Buffy in the Sunnydale world to request an antidote to seeing
hallinations if she knows being in the Sunnydale world is her real
world? Because the buffy in the Sunnydale world still isn't convinced
she's living in the real world! So the kicker is that Buffy really is in
the mental institution. Notice how Dawn is important in "Normal Again".
Buffy created Dawn so it keeps her tied to the Sunnydale world. Dawn is
the "Key" to it all for Buffy. Without Dawn, Buffy would have ended her
stay in "Sunnydale" long ago.
buck naked
"Alberich" <Albe...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
**SNIP**
Alberich,
I've been reading your postings for a while now...and I must say I'm
impressed. I haven't seen anyone write so much and say so little.
Congratulations!!!!!
David Johnston
wrote:
>And if you don't believe the above..ask yourself this question: At the
>end of "Normal Again" the Buffy in the Sunnydale world asks Willow to
>make the antidote drink for her to take so that she can be sure she's
>"cured" from seeing the hallucinations. Well, why would it be necessary
>for the Buffy in the Sunnydale world to request an antidote to seeing
>hallinations if she knows being in the Sunnydale world is her real
>world?
Uh...because she doesn't want to see hallucinations?
For one thing, she's liable to get locked up for real if she
keeps going into these fugue states where she's unable to see
the real world.
Klyfix
<Albe...@somewhere.com> writes:
>
>And if you don't believe the above..ask yourself this question: At the
>end of "Normal Again" the Buffy in the Sunnydale world asks Willow to
>make the antidote drink for her to take so that she can be sure she's
>"cured" from seeing the hallucinations. Well, why would it be necessary
>for the Buffy in the Sunnydale world to request an antidote to seeing
>hallinations if she knows being in the Sunnydale world is her real
>world? Because the buffy in the Sunnydale world still isn't convinced
>she's living in the real world! So the kicker is that Buffy really is in
>the mental institution. Notice how Dawn is important in "Normal Again".
>Buffy created Dawn so it keeps her tied to the Sunnydale world. Dawn is
>the "Key" to it all for Buffy. Without Dawn, Buffy would have ended her
>stay in "Sunnydale" long ago.
>
Well, the whole of your argument is interesting, and makes a certain
sense, but there's a few problems with Sunnydale and everything
in it being but a manifestation of Buffy's delusion.
Like Angel. The series, that is. There's a group of people, clearly in the
Buffyverse, who however have almost no contact at all with the folk back
in Sunnydale. Can Buffy be imagining them along with everything in
Sunnydale?
One wacky possibility of course is that _both_ worlds exist.
Yes, really.
Buffy's consciousness, her spirit or whatever, is multidimensional.
Normally, the seperate lives in the different dimensions wouldn't
interact at all. But as Buffy in the Sunnydale existance is in active
contact with all manner of magics and even died a couple of times
and was brought back the different consciousness have touched.
Buffy in the Normalverse is insane because she's seen her alternate
reality too clearly, and when Buffyverse Buffy was put in contact
with her alternate by the demon poison the blending caused her
to be insane herself. Had she killed her friends, Buffyverse Buffy
would be the one in the catatonic state.
Note that I'm getting most of this idea from certain H.P. Lovecraft stories.
V. S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...
Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html
A rodent with mad skillz, uh, no.
Stra...@webtv.net
all the story lines and spin off tv shows. But to have Buffy in a mental
institution would be a cheap ending.If this show has been going on 7
years, and it ends by having Buffy just imagining ,it would not be
creative at all.Your plot was interesting , your points are worth
thinking about. It was a good episode.What would be a great ending, is
to kill them all.Have one main cast member die each episode, until Buffy
is alone. Than, play up the last show, as it will answer all the
questions.I don't know what the questions are, since I don't watch this
much. But I am sure the fans of this show have a list of questions.
The Jade-Spider
wrote:
> Notice how Dawn is important in "Normal Again".
>Buffy created Dawn so it keeps her tied to the Sunnydale world. Dawn is
>the "Key" to it all for Buffy. Without Dawn, Buffy would have ended her
>stay in "Sunnydale" long ago.
Not that I agree with you [I don't], but another tidbit that would fit
with your line of thinking is that "Joyce" [FE?] told Dawn that Buffy
won't choose her.
JS
Alberich
an0n...@noway.com says...
Whedon for being the asshole for writing this psychobabble for 7 years
as well. After all, he's written "so much and say so little" far better
than I.
Dennis S. DuBay II
>Whedon for being the asshole for writing this psychobabble for 7 years
>as well. After all, he's written "so much and say so little" far better
>than I.
You probably can do one of two things, Alberich:
1. Stop watching the show
2. Stop visiting ATBVS
3. Jump in the middle of on coming traffic.
Your choice, just pick one of them.
I mean, for god sake, brother. Why would you watch a show and join in on the
discussion at the show's newsgroup, if you don't like the show? Is your life
that shitty?
drovar
"Dennis S. DuBay II" <dennisd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021225122231...@mb-fs.aol.com...
> I mean, for god sake, brother. Why would you watch a show and join in on
the
> discussion at the show's newsgroup, if you don't like the show? Is your
life
> that shitty?
He must have been in training over at Trek Today and Trek BBS. They mostly
hate "Enterprise" with a passion; call you an idiot and a fool if you happen
to mention that you kind of like it, scream for it to be cancelled and
insult anyone and everyone connected with the show . . . and watch it every
week.
Hal
>.If this show has been going on 7
>years, and it ends by having Buffy just imagining ,it would not be
>creative at all.
Aren't the Alice books creative?
Also, didn't Tolkien have some not-nice things to say about stories
that ended like that? Something along the line that stories are
supposed to help us escape from this dreary world and this illusion is
shattered if the story ends with 'it was all really just a dream'.
However, my often quite faulty memory may be distorting what he
actually wrote. I think it was in his essay on fairy stories.
Hal
Alberich
dennisd...@aol.com says...
I can get what the clues seem to me to be suggesting in my opinion which
way Joss Wheddon is taking the series when it reaches its conclusion.
And until we get offical word from UPN or whatever on decisions
otherwise, it's beginning to look like this season is it.
JustMe
You reached the same conclusion I had after watching a rerun of Normal
Again, but in a way it doesn't make sense.
ME had made comments that they would like to continue the show( or do a
spin-off), after the end of this season with or without SMG.
BUT, if this season ends with Buffy waking up in the mental hospital that
wouldn't work. They'de be left with Buffy, SMG who may not resign for more
seasons, and lose all the scoobies.
ie, the only one left is the one that may not stay..
Alberich
wh...@nospam.com says...
if I'm still there, Will?!"
To this I have to quote something by C.S. Lewis the theologian and
philospher. It's a beautiful way he describes imagination and
literature:
"Literary experience heals the wound, without undermining the privilege
of individuality. There are mass emotions that heal the wound; but they
destroy the privilege. In them our separate selves are pooled and we
sink back into subindividuality. But in reading great literature I
become a thousand men and yet remain myself. Like the night sky in the
Greek poem, I see with myriad eyes, but it is still I who see. Here, as
in worship, in love, in moral action and in knowing, I transcend myself;
and am never more myself than when I do." C.S. Lewis.
If "Normal Again" really is Joss's vision for Buffy Summers it's a
devastating blow to us because we've invested our emotional and
intellectual virtues into rooting for her. Of course we know it's all
fiction, but the vision of that fictional world as being entirely false
is an affront not only to the viewers of this series but to all people
who enjoy fiction in general.
By taking this beautiful world away from us Joss Whedon is saying we
have no right to believe the visions he's created because, based on
comments in "Normal Again"..."they're not real." "your world is slowly
coming apart." "do whatever it takes" to destroy this "world". It's Joss
Whedon spoon feeding us bitter medicine we don't want to swallow. It's
not fair that he has to take this world away from us because we've
learned so much from it. Joss Whedon may have been influenced by author
Golding from his novel "Lord of the Flies" when the boys are finally
rescued and the skipper from the British warship laughs off the
"foolish" stories of the boys as pure nonsense. The lessons we learned
from Buffy the Vampire Slayer aren't like disposable contact lenses
never to be reused. There are many meanings to these episodes that can
only be learned after repeated viewings and that's the incredible thing
about this show.
What really hurts me about "Normal Again" is the implication that our
imaginations don't count. They mean nothing. We're all trapped in our
own mental hospitals and we have to fight them. We have to kill them in
order to live. I don't believe this and I think it's morally
irresponsible to try following this view. I learn more from carefully
reading the works of J.R Barrie who created the Peter Pan story (which
is a very strong influence on the Buffy series) than by not paying
attention to that "nonsense". Freudian psychoanalysis destroys whatever
magic there is in our worlds that gives us hope for the future and our
will to live. "Normal Again" was such an ugly frightening episode it
scared me more than any horror film I've ever seen. It's also an episode
I'd throw onto The Twilight Zone as a standalone as well. Joss Whedon
has succeeded in scaring me. But not in the way he wanted. This episode
is pure poison and I'm sorry he filmed this. It totally colors my view
of the series and it hurts me deeply that this is the way he feels about
fiction. I certainly hope Sarah Michelle Gellar doesn't believe Joss
Whedon's view about this matter. Because if she DID...I'd drop watching
the Buffy series and forget about getting those BtVS DVDs right now. And
I won't purchase them if "Normal Again"s view prevails when this series
ends.
Banazir the Jedi Hobbit
This rings a bell, but for the life of me I can't remember ATM.
Nay Alfantolians? Halp!
(I'm aslo drawing a blank on which TV series other than St. Elsewhere
ended this way.)
--
Banazir
Bill Anderson
"Banazir the Jedi Hobbit" <hs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:91a1d472.02122...@posting.google.com...
> (I'm aslo drawing a blank on which TV series other than St. Elsewhere
> ended this way.)
Newhart. That, however, was supremely creative -- it turned out that the
whole series was dreamt by the character Bob Newhart played in his previous
series. One of the finest moments in television comedy, IMHO.
And, of course, one whole season of Dallas was a dream.
Ray Lavelle
Buffy, I loved it!! Although you make some interesting points, I
think you are reading way to much into it. My feeling is that Normal
Again was just a self contained episode and that we'll never see a
reference to it again.
I think that the thing that draws Buffy back into Sunnydale in the end
is the talk her mom gives to her. She describes the type of person
Buffy is and at that moment Buffy realizes that those are the
characteristics of the Slayer, not of a crazy girl. In her Sunnydale
reality, the whole mental institution visions were created by the
deamon so she needed to have Willow create the antidote otherwise she
wouldn't be cured in that reality. In the other reality where she is
just a crazy girl, that antidote could just be seen as a symbol of her
wanting to remain in the fantasy world, which is why that's such an
interesting episode because they leave it open as a possibility that
she could really be crazy.
I would love to see them reference Normal Again in future episodes but
I think that if in the end it turned out that Buffy was just a crazy
girl in a mental institution this whole time, a lot of diehard fans
would take this as an insult. I doubt the writers would want to risk
that considering how many fanatic Buffy fans are out there. Also keep
in mind that doing so would ruin the Angel series and the possibility
of any Buffy spin offs, which Joss has said there was a good posibilty
of (keeping my fingers crossed for Faith spinoff).
Alberich <Albe...@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1872f20b8...@news.cyburban.com>...
Hal
wrote:
>I thought Normal Again was one of the most brilliant episodes of
>Buffy, I loved it!! Although you make some interesting points, I
>think you are reading way to much into it. My feeling is that Normal
>Again was just a self contained episode and that we'll never see a
>reference to it again.
>I think that the thing that draws Buffy back into Sunnydale in the end
>is the talk her mom gives to her. She describes the type of person
>Buffy is and at that moment Buffy realizes that those are the
>characteristics of the Slayer, not of a crazy girl. In her Sunnydale
>reality, the whole mental institution visions were created by the
>deamon so she needed to have Willow create the antidote otherwise she
>wouldn't be cured in that reality. In the other reality where she is
>just a crazy girl, that antidote could just be seen as a symbol of her
>wanting to remain in the fantasy world, which is why that's such an
>interesting episode because they leave it open as a possibility that
>she could really be crazy.
You nailed it down pretty well. At least that is pretty much how I
viewed the episode.
Her mother talking about having to rely on herself reminded me of the
end of Season 2 where Buffy came to realize that she had to rely on
herself.
Hal
Mark Reichert
> random choices. I'm glad I had the chance to see "Normal Again" and
> "Villains" back to back. Because it's clear there is a connection
> between them. The key is in the episode "Normal Again".
I suppose that it never occured to you that the reason they were
showing those episodes was because they could. UPN still had repeat
rights to those episodes which is why they weren't shown on FX.
coyotes morgan mair fheal
dallas killed off a main character
had a disasterous season
and then brought him back with it was all dream
the bob newhart show and st elsewhere ended this way
presumably as a parody of dallas
since bob newhart was a comedy
and st elsewhere was comedy-drama
to have buffy end that way would probably lead to angry mobs
hunting down whedon
especially since instutiionalized buffy was getting
really bad treatment from her doctor
(you dont treat hallucinations by going deeper into them)
Alberich
mair_...@yahoo.com says...
This was referring to taking control of the dream and manipulating it to
recreate the flow of that dream. I think this is what the doctor was
trying to do.
coyotes morgan mair fheal
> > really bad treatment from her doctor
> > (you dont treat hallucinations by going deeper into them)
> >
>
> This was referring to taking control of the dream and manipulating it to
> recreate the flow of that dream. I think this is what the doctor was
> trying to do.
hallucinations arent dreams
the way to take control of hallucinations
is to try to find a drug that stops them
Smaug69
> random choices. I'm glad I had the chance to see "Normal Again" and
> "Villains" back to back. Because it's clear there is a connection
> between them. The key is in the episode "Normal Again".
<snip interesting stuff>
> And if you don't believe the above..ask yourself this question: At the
> end of "Normal Again" the Buffy in the Sunnydale world asks Willow to
> make the antidote drink for her to take so that she can be sure she's
> "cured" from seeing the hallucinations. Well, why would it be necessary
> for the Buffy in the Sunnydale world to request an antidote to seeing
> hallinations if she knows being in the Sunnydale world is her real
> world?
You went to all this trouble to make a cogent point about the real
world being the mental institution and you don't know the answer to
this question?
Why would anyone want to continue to have hallucinations of any kind?
How could anyone function if they kept going back and forth like that?
Don't you think that would drive anyone insane? Buffy would have to be
put into a mental institution for real without the antidote.
> Because the buffy in the Sunnydale world still isn't convinced
> she's living in the real world! So the kicker is that Buffy really is in
> the mental institution. Notice how Dawn is important in "Normal Again".
> Buffy created Dawn so it keeps her tied to the Sunnydale world. Dawn is
> the "Key" to it all for Buffy. Without Dawn, Buffy would have ended her
> stay in "Sunnydale" long ago.
Nice set up, but you blew it at the end.
Smaug69
Alberich
Smaug69
Buffy was already convinced. That is why she "chose" to stay in the
Sunnydale world. But she needed the antidote to prevent further
hallucinations. No matter what world she thought was real, having
continued hallucinations is not good.
Smaug69
Alberich
You're simply saying Buffy chose to live in the Sunnydale world which is
real now that Buffy chose it over the world she inhabited while in the
hospital. But this is still saying the Buffyverse isn't real and it's
real only because Buffy chooses to maintain the fiction of its reality.
In other words, Buffy still believes that she might be existing for real
in the mental institution. But she chose to be with her "friends"
because they mean more to her than anything that exists in the reality
she's currently inhabiting at the hospital. The interesting thing about
"Normal Again" is the doctor's description of Buffy's inner world of the
Slayer. According to his diagnosis, Buffy "created" the Buffyverse as a
defence mechanism. But a defence mechanism against what? Against whom?
This seems to suggest that Buffy never had a vision of this Buffyverse
until she was actually committed. In other words, Buffy Summers may be
experiecing real mental problems and her visions of the Buffyverse was
created AFTER she was committed. This means that Buffy's world is really
that of a sick woman whose mind and thoughts we're being asked to take
as reality.
Remember the famous German silent film classic "The Cabinet of Dr.
Caligari"? In that film we experience the events of a person who
describes the mad world of an experimental psychiatrist using
somnambolism as a weapon to commit murder. Only at the end do we realize
we've been victims of the thoughts of an actual mental patient who is
under the care of an actual Dr. Caligari in the institution. We're left
to speculate on whether we witnessed the delusions of a sick mind or did
we see the revelations of a sick mind who saw the truth behind Dr.
Caligari? So I can't take this episode is mere coincidence in the grand
plan of things that Joss Whedon created solely for the purpose of
throwing misdirection in our faces. I think Joss Whedon, as a student of
film and art was probably well aware of this famous German film classic
and this episode was his homage to that movie and the famous German film
director Fritz Lang. In essence, Joss Whedon is telling us we should be
questioning our own sanity for watching this program and "believing" it.
Which explains his need to film this ugly episode which throws cold
water on our beliefs behind the Buffyverse and Buffy Summers herself.
ELurio
is back "home."
It is a convention of the cinema to have a last scene like that show the REAL
world.
eric l.
Alberich
says...
asking Willow to make some more just after Buffy defeats the
vampire/monster. Which could mean one of two things: One...she's still
hallucinating the scenes of herself in the mental hospital or Two...she
really is in the mental hospital.
The one thing that would clear all this up is Joss Whedon himself. It
would be nice getting some perspective from him on this matter. But I
doubt we'll ever know until that last frame of the Buffy series is
shown...which I'm beginning to feel is coming to an end. Buffy Summers
is looking more and more likely a patient in a mental institution
imagining herself as the Slayer.
David Johnston
wrote:
>shown...which I'm beginning to feel is coming to an end. Buffy Summers
>is looking more and more likely a patient in a mental institution
>imagining herself as the Slayer.
And yet, you never seem to tell us why it is looking more and more
likely to you.
Smaug69
incoherently:
<snip>
>You're simply saying Buffy chose to live in the Sunnydale world which is
>real now that Buffy chose it over the world she inhabited while in the
>hospital.
And all you are saying is the opposite. How do you explain the demon
poison and what it does to Buffy?
> But this is still saying the Buffyverse isn't real and it's
>real only because Buffy chooses to maintain the fiction of its reality.
Philosophers have been saying that about reality for centuries. :-)
--
"Who comes to slay the dragon- come to watch him fall?
Making arrows out of pointed words. Giant killers, at the call."
Smaug69
incoherently:
>In article <20021226210245...@mb-cf.aol.com>, elu...@aol.com
>says...
>> The last scene in the hospital takes place AFTER Buffy takes the antidote and
>> is back "home."
>>
>> It is a convention of the cinema to have a last scene like that show the REAL
>> world.
>>
>> eric l.
>>
>We don't see Buffy take the antidote in the Buffyverse. We do see her
>asking Willow to make some more just after Buffy defeats the
>vampire/monster. Which could mean one of two things: One...she's still
>hallucinating the scenes of herself in the mental hospital or Two...she
>really is in the mental hospital.
So now you are admitting you don't know which is real? Why did you
start this thread then?
>The one thing that would clear all this up is Joss Whedon himself.
Do youexpect me to take anything he says in interviews seriously? LOL.
Not bloody likely.
> It
>would be nice getting some perspective from him on this matter. But I
>doubt we'll ever know until that last frame of the Buffy series is
>shown...which I'm beginning to feel is coming to an end. Buffy Summers
>is looking more and more likely a patient in a mental institution
>imagining herself as the Slayer.
Hardly.
Smaug69
incoherently:
>The last scene in the hospital takes place AFTER Buffy takes the antidote and
>is back "home."
Sorry, you lose. Buffy still hadn't taken the antidote.
>It is a convention of the cinema to have a last scene like that show the REAL
>world.
TV isn't cinema and not everything has to follow convention.
Alberich
smau...@carolinaxx.rrxx.com says...
> From somewhere over there Alberich <Albe...@somewhere.com> mumbled
> incoherently:
>
> <snip>
>
> >You're simply saying Buffy chose to live in the Sunnydale world which is
> >real now that Buffy chose it over the world she inhabited while in the
> >hospital.
>
> And all you are saying is the opposite. How do you explain the demon
> poison and what it does to Buffy?
There's no evidence to suggest the demon poison caused her to imagine
being in the mental institution. Remember that she killed the demon
before the episode ended and THEN we see her in a catatonic state with
the doctor saying "We've lost her." Besides, you mean to tell me
everytime Buffy gets sticked with a needle and some pointy object she's
suddenly going to hallucinate about being in the hospital ward? C'mon.
Alberich
smau...@carolinaxx.rrxx.com says...
spilled alot of ink on this episode and I'd like to hear your theory
about the whole thing. If you believe that Buffy DOES exist in the
Buffyverse and the Buffy in the hospital was the illusion...I'd like to
read it.
drovar
"ELurio" <elu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021226210245...@mb-cf.aol.com...
> The last scene in the hospital takes place AFTER Buffy takes the antidote
and
> is back "home."
Actually no. She never drinks the antidote on screen. To me that says that
final hospital scene is just another hallucination.
Mikeith
Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you were smart enough to do a google
search on this topic back when this episode first aired (and you hadn't
started rewarding us yet with your incredibly insightful views) you would
see alot of heated debates on this subject. Debates which ENDED when Marti
Noxon did an interview in which she said that she didn't want to give the
impression that Buffy was in a mental hospital it was just a funny twist
ending they added on for laughs. She also said they wouldnt be bringing it
up a gain and that there would be no St Elsewhere type ending for the show,
which at the time is what people were worried about. I'm noy gonna Google
search this for you, you can do it yourself, but I do distinctly remember
it.
Mikeith
Actually, here is the google searh and the pertinent interview section, so
you can now drop this whole subject.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=7s2p8.116289%247b
.10835718%40bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com&rnum=41&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dmarti%2Bn
ormal%2Bagain%2Bgroup:alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer.*%26start%3D40%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D
%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D7s2p8.116289%25247b.10835718%2540bin7.n
nrp.aus1.giganews.com%26rnum%3D41
The following is E Online's Watch with Wanda interview with Marti Noxon:
Let's start with the episode that really riled up the fans: Did Buffy's trip
to the mental hospital mean the entire show is just a hallucination?
Noxon: We never meant for it to be a statement of the show. If so, it would
have been the very last episode of Buffy. We just wanted to have a little
fun and say: "Could it have all been her hallucination?" It was a brain
teaser. We believe in the world of Buffy. Wholeheartedly.
Smaug69
I did all of my "analyses" back when this episode first aired. I don't
feel like hunting them down, but if you want to read them feel free to
Google to your heart's content. There were plenty of threads with
input from both sides.
Smaug69
Smaug69
> In article <1uin0vksfv330ns0u...@4ax.com>,
> smau...@carolinaxx.rrxx.com says...
> > From somewhere over there Alberich <Albe...@somewhere.com> mumbled
> > incoherently:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >You're simply saying Buffy chose to live in the Sunnydale world which is
> > >real now that Buffy chose it over the world she inhabited while in the
> > >hospital.
> >
> > And all you are saying is the opposite. How do you explain the demon
> > poison and what it does to Buffy?
>
> There's no evidence to suggest the demon poison caused her to imagine
> being in the mental institution.
She didn't start seeing the mental institution until AFTER she was
poisoned. That's plain evidence.
> Remember that she killed the demon
> before the episode ended and THEN we see her in a catatonic state with
> the doctor saying "We've lost her."
Killing the demon did not counteract the poison. She needed the
antidote which she had not taken before that last scene.
>Besides, you mean to tell me
> everytime Buffy gets sticked with a needle and some pointy object she's
> suddenly going to hallucinate about being in the hospital ward? C'mon.
Have you forgotten what Buffy was going through in Season 6? She came
back from what she thought was heaven to a place she considered to be
hell. And it was her friends who brought her back. She avoided telling
them how she felt(until OMWF dragged it out of her) and closed herself
off to all but Spike(and that relationship was killing her). She was
depressed and practically suicidal for most of the season. So it's not
that much of a stretch to imagine that any kind of hallucination or
dream would be about her existence in Sunnydale as the Slayer not
being real and her Mom being alive and still with her Dad.
Does it seem more plausible that a girl like Buffy would have an
elaborate dimensia revolving around her being some superpowerful
Slayer in a place that was always full of death and darkness- where
her dad was gone and her mother was dead?
Normal Again was a one-time twist of a show. And nothing more.
Smaug69
A Johnson
-------------------------
I'm a teenage drama queen; I'll throw my guts up for self esteem.
She didn't know how to live in a town that was rough./Walking home in a
wrapped up world, she survived but she's feeling old/Because she found
all things cold.
"Do not judge what you can't understand"
... isn't it one of the ten commandments? Thou Shalt Not Doubt Joss
Whedon's Genius?
V.Cwhore
a o
n k
i e
l
l
a
ANIM8Rfsk
<< He must have been in training over at Trek Today and Trek BBS. They mostly
hate "Enterprise" with a passion; call you an idiot and a fool if you happen
to mention that you kind of like it, scream for it to be cancelled and
insult anyone and everyone connected with the show . . . and watch it every
week. >>
Yeah, but that's reasonable. :-)
Conrad Z. Risher
<snipped all kinds of argumentative stuff>
> Buffy was already convinced. That is why she "chose" to stay in the
> Sunnydale world. But she needed the antidote to prevent further
Interesting. I felt that she made her choice based on her varied
utility in the two worlds offered. Much as Joyce & Hank _wanted_ her
in the institution-world, Willow, Xander, et al. _needed_ her in the
Sunnydale world. It felt more noble that way.
Mike Jackson
I for one agree with you. I only started watching during the middle of
season six, but caught up thanks to FX and DVD. Whedon doesn't seem to leave
plot threads hanging -- how else do you explain this season dredging up a
villain from a one-shot episode four seasons ago? Or Amy? Or mentioning in
passing things that happened years ago. "Normal Again" -- I hope,
personally -- won't be anything different. It's not unlike "Total Recall,"
where everything that happens after the first 20 or so minutes is all a
dream. If ME handles this carefully, I think it will be a great ending to
the series. Perhaps it won't be purely a dream, maybe more like a link she
has to an alternate dimension, which would explain why the characters that
have moved on to "Angel" are persistent even when they're outside of
Sunnydale.
Alberich, don't let everyone give you crap...good theories, even if they are
wrong, are worth developing.
:) mike
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> There's no evidence to suggest the demon poison caused her to imagine
> being in the mental institution. Remember that she killed the demon
> before the episode ended and THEN we see her in a catatonic state with
> the doctor saying "We've lost her." Besides, you mean to tell me
> everytime Buffy gets sticked with a needle and some pointy object she's
> suddenly going to hallucinate about being in the hospital ward? C'mon.
Well, nothing to suggest that's what happened, other than this:
ANGLE: THE DEMON'S KNUCKLES.
SHNK!! A long, needle-like stinger springs out, dripping.
Buffy comes at it. They spar evenly, until the demon spins her, grabs
her and BURIES ITS STINGER INTO HER UPPER ARM. Buffy struggles, trying
to shake herself out of its embrace. She flails, desperate, aggressive,
then...
FLASH CUT TO:
INT. ASYLUM - CELL - NIGHT
Buffy is up on her feet in a tiny room, an institutional cot next to
her. She wears a white clinic gown and flails away just like in the
alley. A HYPODERMIC NEEDLE STUCK IN HER ARM. TWO ORDERLIES trying to
restrain her.
And Buffy's account later:
INT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - LIVING ROOM - DAY
Willow comes out of the kitchen with a glass of water filled with ice
cubes.
BUFFY
I've been having these... flashes.
Hallucinations, I guess.
WILLOW
Since when?
Willow hands the glass to Buffy who sits in a chair, still in her pj's.
Buffy takes a sip. Soft spoken - still piecing it together. Willow sits
next to DAWN and Xander on the couch. Bedding evident from him sleeping
over on the couch.
BUFFY
Night before last. I was checking
houses on the list you put
together, looking for Warren and
his pals. Then bam. Some kind of
gross, waxy demon thing poked me.
DAWN
Wax like icky ear stuff?
BUFFY
More like a melted candle.
XANDER
And when you say poke --
BUFFY
In the arm.
(rubbing the wound)
It stung me or something, and then
it was like I --
(thinks better of it)
No. Not like. I was in an
institution.
WILLOW
(hopefully)
For higher learning?
BUFFY
I didn't know what it was at
first. But then it happened a
couple more times. There were
doctors, nurses, other patients...
She's amazed and confused even recounting it.
BUFFY (cont'd)
They told me I was sick. Crazy,
I guess. And that Sunnydale
And... all of this. None of it
was real. Just part of some
delusion in my head.
And the Troika's reactions:
ON WARREN and ANDREW entering, carrying a couple of packages from
upstairs, sharing a laugh.
WARREN
Dude, that poison's got her
drooling like a--
WIDEN to find a somewhat miffed Jonathan waiting there expectantly like
a wife who's been waiting up for an errant husband.
JONATHAN
Where've you guys been?
Warren and Andrew share a look.
WARREN
Picking up some stuff.
ANDREW
And checking out Buffy on the
van's remote surveillance.
WARREN
Andrew's demon pet's done some
number on the Slayer. She's
tripping like a Ken Russell film
festival.
He and Andrew high five as they cross to a computer table, putting down
their packages.
And Willow's research:
INT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - LIVING ROOM - DAY
Buffy is alone, sitting on the couch. Zoning out on a picture of Hank,
Joyce and herself from way back. Longing.
Then Willow walks in from the dining room.
WILLOW
Buffy, good news. I found the
demon. Fits your description and
symptoms perfectly. Look, is this
it?
She holds a printed-out picture of the demon. It takes Buffy a moment to
focus and look at it. She nods.
WILLOW (cont'd)
See? It's gonna be okay. Its
pokey stinger carries an antidote
to its own poison.
But Buffy seems preoccupied. Lost in questions. Vulnerable.
BUFFY
Will... I feel so lost.
WILLOW
I know. You're confused, but it's
just that crazy juice inside you.
--
E. D. Brooks | kalima...@attbi.com | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Why, in my day, we used to fight the Lord of
Terror with nothing but a sharp stick!" -- www.reallifecomics.com
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> There's no evidence to suggest the demon poison caused her to imagine
> being in the mental institution. Remember that she killed the demon
> before the episode ended and THEN we see her in a catatonic state with
> the doctor saying "We've lost her." Besides, you mean to tell me
> everytime Buffy gets sticked with a needle and some pointy object she's
> suddenly going to hallucinate about being in the hospital ward? C'mon.
Oh, forgot. Last bit: She clearly doesn't get the antidote (or at least
enough of it) until after the trick-ending.
The others are on the ground. Still suspect of Buffy. Traumatized and
not sure if and when they'll get over her attacks. But then Willow gets
up, overcome with concern and sympathy.
WILLOW
Buffy.
Xander reassures the others.
XANDER
We're okay. Everything's okay.
WILLOW
Buffy, sit. You'll fall over.
BUFFY
No...
She looks at Willow. Catching her breath. Standing as if it's keeping
her in this reality. Dazed, but defiant now.
BUFFY (cont'd)
I can't. Not until I have the
antidote.
WILLOW
Okay. We'll make more. We'll
take care of it.
Things settle. It's all over.
But then...
FLASH CUT TO:
INT. ASYLUM - CELL - NIGHT
Buffy stands, facing the wall with as blank a stare as ever. The doctor
checks her eyes with a flashlight.
Hank and Joyce stand by. Hank holding Joyce as she cries.
Finally, the doctor stops. Turns to face them, shaking his head.
DOCTOR
I'm so sorry. There's no reaction
at all.
(a beat)
I'm afraid we've lost her.
THE CAMERA PULLS BACK SLOWLY, DOWN THE HALL. Leaving the doctor and
Buffy's parents helpless, and Buffy lost in a distant delusion.
BLACK OUT
Alberich
says...
of that on here. I need to read that more carefully. There are things in
the screenplay that allows you to pick up even more clues. Please
continue from that last scene.
Shy Guy
"Banazir the Jedi Hobbit" <hs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:91a1d472.02122...@posting.google.com...
> (I'm aslo drawing a blank on which TV series other than St. Elsewhere
> ended this way.)
Dallas and Newhart were mentioned a couple of times.
I haven't seen anyone mention Roseanne. On the last episode it was revealed
that the events of the shows were a retelling of a series of books written
by author Roseanne Connor. At least some of the events shown diverged from
what had happened to the "real-life" Connors. For example, the "real-life"
Dan Connor died from his heart attack, he didn't recover as shown on the
series. Becky and Darlene did indeed marry Mark and David, however in
"real-life" Becky married David, and Darlene married Mark. And I don't
believe the family actually won the lottery.
If it sounds convoluted and confusing, believe me it was. It was a bit
difficult to determine what events had actually "happened" to the characters
we knew for several years, and what hadn't. Personally, it would have been
a lot simpler if they had simply played off the last season only (they win
the lottery, Dan runs off to California with another woman) as a dream, in a
tip of the hat to Dallas. Earlier in the series, when the Becky character
was recast with a second actress, they paid homage to Bewitched and the two
Darrins. Cute.
And yes, I placed "real-life" in quotations because I do understand that it
is all fiction.
Shy Guy
Shy Guy
"Ray Lavelle" <bostonp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8653140.02122...@posting.google.com...
> I would love to see them reference Normal Again in future episodes but
> I think that if in the end it turned out that Buffy was just a crazy
> girl in a mental institution this whole time, a lot of diehard fans
> would take this as an insult. I doubt the writers would want to risk
> that considering how many fanatic Buffy fans are out there.
Why is it okay to be a fan of the adventures of a teen superheroine and her
wacky gang of friends when it is the fictional ramblings of a creative and
talented man (Whedon) but it is insulting to be a fan of the adventures of a
teen superheroine and her wacky gang of friends if it is the delusional
ramblings of a mentally ill young woman, both of which are the fictional
ramblings of a creative and talented man (Whedon)? I don't get it. You
mean the episodes you loved will suddenly no longer be enjoyable? I don't
get it. The fact that you would be disatisfied with the ending of a series
you loved? That I get. Lots of great series have had crappy, disatisfying,
anticlimactic final episodes, but they're still great series.
Shy Guy (who still enjoys almost all the episodes of Seinfeld, and who also
thinks most people here will be unhappy with the final episode of BTVS, no
matter how it ends, and who also thinks the Wizard of Oz is a great film,
ending included.)
> keep in mind that doing so would ruin the Angel series and the possibility
> of any Buffy spin offs, which Joss has said there was a good posibilty
> of (keeping my fingers crossed for Faith spinoff).
I'd still enjoy the Angel series, even if I had to accept that the series
was actually fictional (all those LA local news stories about fireballs not
withstanding.)
And I'd enjoy a Faith series even if it only happened in MY own mind.
(Several scenes with Eliza Dushka have already played out there.)
David Johnston
wrote:
The reason why I believe Buffy wasn't in the hospital is simple.
No psychiatrist would encourage a patient to roleplay mass murder
of her hallucinations. Nor would such a therapeutic course of
treatment prove efficacious. With hallucinations that severe,
psychotherapy is pretty much a waste of time anyway. You
go straight to the anti-schizophrenia drugs.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> That was excellent. Was that the screenplay?! I'd like you to post more
> of that on here. I need to read that more carefully. There are things in
> the screenplay that allows you to pick up even more clues. Please
> continue from that last scene.
That was the screenplay.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< I haven't seen anyone mention Roseanne. On the last episode it was revealed
that the events of the shows were a retelling of a series of books written
by author Roseanne Connor. >>
Was it supposed to be the entire series, or just the last season?
Cernunnos
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20021228115613...@mb-ch.aol.com...
The whole show. she admits to taking a fantasy license with her family.
Apparently her sister was gay,which makes sense. and her daughters each
ended up with the other boy friend... oh and Dan died of the heart
attack...they never won the lottery, all kinds of things... it harkens back
to an early season episode where roseanne mentions how she has stopped
writing.
at the time it was really quite sad.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< The whole show. she admits to taking a fantasy license with her family.
Apparently her sister was gay,which makes sense. and her daughters each
ended up with the other boy friend... oh and Dan died of the heart
attack...they never won the lottery, all kinds of things... it harkens back
to an early season episode where roseanne mentions how she has stopped
writing.
at the time it was really quite sad. >>
Yeah, you're right, I was thinking is was just all in her head after Dan's
death, which was what she was dropping hints about, but the actual presentation
meant everything had been twisted. And it really was sad.
ELurio
She lied. They mentioned it in the last episode of last season.
eric l.
Jonathan Roberts
czri...@yahoo.com (Conrad Z. Risher) wrote:
> Interesting. I felt that she made her choice based on her varied
> utility in the two worlds offered. Much as Joyce & Hank _wanted_ her
> in the institution-world, Willow, Xander, et al. _needed_ her in the
> Sunnydale world. It felt more noble that way.
Again, as I noted when the episode first aired, many Buffy episodes are
symbolic of choices people make in our "real world" during the course of
their lives.
Buffy was presented with the choice of A) going to the Asylum World and
being her parents' little girl again. Note that she would be 21 years
old with an eighth-grade education, would likely be on anti-psychotic
medication for the rest of her life, and would be unlikely to really fit
into any position in this world.
That represents the choice of remaining in childhood.
The other choice was to go to Sunnydale and be the Slayer.
This represents the choice of moving into the Adult World, with all the
difficulties that entails: losing the full-time support of your parents,
having less security, but interacting with people as an adult and having
meaningful work to do in contributing to society. That she receives
little reward for that work makes it all the more "realistic."
I'd say the choice she made was the wise one.
--
-- Jon
jonathan roberts * guitar keyboard vocal * North River Preservation
-------------------------------------------------------------------
What Would Satan Drive?
Immortus45
...Well, why would it be necessary
for the Buffy in the Sunnydale world to request an antidote to seeing
hallinations if she knows being in the Sunnydale world is her real
world?
Because she thought the hospital was a hallucination and she wanted to
be cured of it.
Immortus45
> ending included.)
People are going to probably think I'm completely clueless for saying
this but I have to confess , I always thought Oz was supposed to be
real. I thought the ruby slippers magically transported her back to
Kansas where she was found by her family who just assumed it was a
dream and dismissed it. In talking to other people I was surprised to
discover that I'm the only person who had that interpretation.
Everyone else has every confidence that it was supposed to be a dream
and they tell me that I completely misinterpreted the ending. I
haven't seen the movie since I was a kid so maybe watching it again
from an adult perspective would lead me to a different conclusion.
E. Deirdre Brooks
The movie leaves it open for both interpretations, but I suspect you
could learn something about how people choose to interpret it.
Given the long series of Oz books Frank L. Baum wrote, I'm inclined to
go with your version. :)
Conrad Z. Risher
<snip>
> Given the long series of Oz books Frank L. Baum wrote, I'm inclined to
> go with your version. :)
Lest there be any doubt, we all know that Ms. Brooks meant to write
"L. Frank Baum".
Conrad Risher -- who still smarts over making that mistake and losing
It's Academic standing more than a few years ago
Robyn
> > utility in the two worlds offered.
It is all about choices. The hospital world offered the easy way out.
After being brought back to life in this "hard" world, Buffy has been
looking for a way out. She's miserable and disconnected. She needed to
make a life choice and she did. Joyce's words to her were the key. "The
world feels like a hard place." This is the trigger for her. The person
who always believed in her needed to tell her she was a strong person and
only the strong take the hard way out.
Philip Chien
news:3cbP9.571$%a7.31...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com:
> I haven't seen anyone mention Roseanne.
Parenthetical note. Joss Whedon was a staff writer on "Roseanne" although
I'm not certain which seasons. I have this longing suspicion that one of
Darlene's friends who made the comment "We're just two normal people who
like to dress up like Klingongs every now and then" came from Joss. It's
interesting to note that at least three actors on Rosanne - Glenn Quinn,
Alyson Hannigan, and Riff Regan (the original Willow) were cast in later
Joss Whedon series.
> On the last episode it was
> revealed that the events of the shows were a retelling of a series of
> books written by author Roseanne Connor.
The last season was pretty kooky where the Connor family won the lottery
but for some reason decided to still live in their lower middle class home
(real reason - new sets cost money to construct). And many of the episodes
were pretty far out that year from what I recall.
If they had only done the final episode I would have been pretty impressed.
But after a year of episodes which had little or nothing to do with the
series as a whole - I had pretty much given up at that point and was just
watching out of momentum.
> Earlier in
> the series, when the Becky character was recast with a second actress,
> they paid homage to Bewitched and the two Darrins. Cute.
More than once. When the original actress returned they did another
homage, (ISTR to the Patty Duke show) and in a going to Disneyworld episode
they had the actress who wasn't doing the role at the time do it along with
an announcer saying "Tonight the role of Becky Connor will be played by"
and even having the character say "Gee I'm glad I showed up this week" -
some very nice nods to the audience when the show was IMHO far funnier than
the final season.
One of the more interesting things about "Normal Again" is that, unlike the
other series mentioned ("St. Elsewhere", "Bob Newheart", etc.) it was not
the end of the series - or even the end of the season. It was just another
episodes that moved a bit of the story arc along as well as told its own
story.
"Normal Again" would have made a *fantastic* last episode for Buffy. As it
was it was a *great* later portion of the season episode and for me one of
the highlights of the season. It can be interpeted many different ways and
each way has its own shades of gray and insights into the characters.
If you don't like the META storyline then just assume that everything
inside the mental hospital was an illusion caused by the demon's poison.
But for me "Normal Again" is certainly in my top ten list of Buffy episodes
- I like episodes which take risks with the series's concept and make you
think.
Philip Chien
(who is pretty certain that if there's a "Normal Again"-like show for the
final episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" will be done in an innovative
way which is different from what other series have done before.)
Pelerin Galimatias
says...
>One of the more interesting things about "Normal Again" is that, unlike the
>other series mentioned ("St. Elsewhere", "Bob Newheart", etc.) it was not
>the end of the series - or even the end of the season. It was just another
>episodes that moved a bit of the story arc along as well as told its own
>story.
>
>"Normal Again" would have made a *fantastic* last episode for Buffy. As it
>was it was a *great* later portion of the season episode and for me one of
>the highlights of the season. It can be interpeted many different ways and
>each way has its own shades of gray and insights into the characters.
>
>If you don't like the META storyline then just assume that everything
>inside the mental hospital was an illusion caused by the demon's poison.
>
>But for me "Normal Again" is certainly in my top ten list of Buffy episodes
>- I like episodes which take risks with the series's concept and make you
>think.
>
>Philip Chien
>(who is pretty certain that if there's a "Normal Again"-like show for the
>final episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" will be done in an innovative
>way which is different from what other series have done before.)
>
would have made an excellent series finale. SMG is a much underrated
actor. (The way the episode ended made the hospital scene the reality.)
--
0000001000000100000110001000011010001111110010111011101000010000
coyotes morgan mair fheal
> would have made an excellent series finale. SMG is a much underrated
> actor. (The way the episode ended made the hospital scene the reality.)
no
the way it ended was because buffy hadnt taken the antidote yet
after a six and half year emotional commitment
if joss turns around and says 'just kidding folks'
i wont be the only one hunting him down in the streets
st elsewhere and newhart got away with because they were much lighter
you can check with dallas fans
but my understandinfg is that killed that show
SHOES*@att.net Nat and Al Enquirer
-- snip --
> I'd drop watching
> the Buffy series and forget about getting those BtVS DVDs right now. And
> I won't purchase them if "Normal Again"s view prevails when this series
> ends.
How does the Angel series figure into you theory?
--
Respectfully,
_////|\\\\_
(-)= )|( =(-)
/ / | \ \
(_ ) | ( _)
//// | \\\\
(_____|_____)
Nat and Al
I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be
expected only from the strong. - attributed to Leo C. Rosten (1908-1997)
We are no longer making a public e-mail address available. Please reply in
the newsgroup or post a request for an exchange of private e-mail.
nimue
I have never, ever, EVER HATED!!!!!! an episode of ANY SHOW as much as I
HATED Normal Again. I hate being f***** with that way.
--
nimue
"The schools are not as good as they used to be, and never were."
- Will Rogers -
nimue
>> I also place "Normal Again" in my top 10, maybe 5, and think that it
>> would have made an excellent series finale. SMG is a much underrated
>> actor. (The way the episode ended made the hospital scene the
>> reality.)
>
> no
> the way it ended was because buffy hadnt taken the antidote yet
>
> after a six and half year emotional commitment
> if joss turns around and says 'just kidding folks'
> i wont be the only one hunting him down in the streets
You won't, indeed. I'll be right there beside you!
>
> st elsewhere and newhart got away with because they were much lighter
>
> you can check with dallas fans
> but my understandinfg is that killed that show
--
nimue
> wh...@nospam.com says...> > news:MPG.1873f6691...@news.cyburban.com...
> > > In article <20021225122231...@mb-fs.aol.com>,
> > > dennisd...@aol.com says...
> > > > >Congratulations on being an asshole yourself. You can also thank Joss
> > > > >Whedon for being the asshole for writing this psychobabble for 7 years
> > > > >as well. After all, he's written "so much and say so little" far better
> > > > >than I.
> > > >
> > > > You probably can do one of two things, Alberich:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Stop watching the show
> > > > 2. Stop visiting ATBVS
> > > > 3. Jump in the middle of on coming traffic.
> > > >
> > > > Your choice, just pick one of them.
> > > >
> > > > I mean, for god sake, brother. Why would you watch a show and join in on
> the
> > > > discussion at the show's newsgroup, if you don't like the show? Is your
> life
> > > > that shitty?
> > > >
> > > What makes you say I don't like the show? I'm pointing out as clearly as
> > > I can get what the clues seem to me to be suggesting in my opinion which
> > > way Joss Wheddon is taking the series when it reaches its conclusion.
> > > And until we get offical word from UPN or whatever on decisions
> > > otherwise, it's beginning to look like this season is it.
> >
> > You reached the same conclusion I had after watching a rerun of Normal
> > Again, but in a way it doesn't make sense.
> > ME had made comments that they would like to continue the show( or do a
> > spin-off), after the end of this season with or without SMG.
> > BUT, if this season ends with Buffy waking up in the mental hospital that
> > wouldn't work. They'de be left with Buffy, SMG who may not resign for more
> > seasons, and lose all the scoobies.
> > ie, the only one left is the one that may not stay..
> >
> >
> >
> It's Buffy's anguished remark to Willow is what got me: Buffy said "What
> if I'm still there, Will?!"
>
> To this I have to quote something by C.S. Lewis the theologian and
> philospher. It's a beautiful way he describes imagination and
> literature:
>
> "Literary experience heals the wound, without undermining the privilege
> of individuality. There are mass emotions that heal the wound; but they
> destroy the privilege. In them our separate selves are pooled and we
> sink back into subindividuality. But in reading great literature I
> become a thousand men and yet remain myself. Like the night sky in the
> Greek poem, I see with myriad eyes, but it is still I who see. Here, as
> in worship, in love, in moral action and in knowing, I transcend myself;
> and am never more myself than when I do." C.S. Lewis.
>
> If "Normal Again" really is Joss's vision for Buffy Summers it's a
> devastating blow to us because we've invested our emotional and
> intellectual virtues into rooting for her. Of course we know it's all
> fiction, but the vision of that fictional world as being entirely false
> is an affront not only to the viewers of this series but to all people
> who enjoy fiction in general.
>
> By taking this beautiful world away from us Joss Whedon is saying we
> have no right to believe the visions he's created because, based on
> comments in "Normal Again"..."they're not real." "your world is slowly
> coming apart." "do whatever it takes" to destroy this "world". It's Joss
> Whedon spoon feeding us bitter medicine we don't want to swallow. It's
> not fair that he has to take this world away from us because we've
> learned so much from it. Joss Whedon may have been influenced by author
> Golding from his novel "Lord of the Flies" when the boys are finally
> rescued and the skipper from the British warship laughs off the
> "foolish" stories of the boys as pure nonsense. The lessons we learned
> from Buffy the Vampire Slayer aren't like disposable contact lenses
> never to be reused. There are many meanings to these episodes that can
> only be learned after repeated viewings and that's the incredible thing
> about this show.
>
> What really hurts me about "Normal Again" is the implication that our
> imaginations don't count. They mean nothing. We're all trapped in our
> own mental hospitals and we have to fight them. We have to kill them in
> order to live. I don't believe this and I think it's morally
> irresponsible to try following this view. I learn more from carefully
> reading the works of J.R Barrie who created the Peter Pan story (which
> is a very strong influence on the Buffy series) than by not paying
> attention to that "nonsense". Freudian psychoanalysis destroys whatever
> magic there is in our worlds that gives us hope for the future and our
> will to live. "Normal Again" was such an ugly frightening episode it
> scared me more than any horror film I've ever seen. It's also an episode
> I'd throw onto The Twilight Zone as a standalone as well. Joss Whedon
> has succeeded in scaring me. But not in the way he wanted. This episode
> is pure poison and I'm sorry he filmed this. It totally colors my view
> of the series and it hurts me deeply that this is the way he feels about
> fiction. I certainly hope Sarah Michelle Gellar doesn't believe Joss
> Whedon's view about this matter. Because if she DID...I'd drop watching
> I won't purchase them if "Normal Again"s view prevails when this series
> ends.
I have to say I think this is a brilliant post, and I agree with every
single thing you wrote. NA was the most ugly, frightening episode. I
hate having my emotional investment in the "reality" of the story
betrayed. I agree that I too would not spend one more penny on
anything Buffy if the series ends with a Normal Again type of episode.
It was a deeply upsetting episode. Not only did the world we had all
suspended disbelief for not exist -- and how dare ME not keep its side
of the bargain? -- but to curse (and it is a hideous curse) Buffy with
schizophrenia, one of the most horrible illnesses ever -- oh, it was
disgusting, and cruel, and irresponsible. I hate Joss for that, and
ME, and have done my best to forget about it. Again, if the series
ends this way, then I would never, ever support anything Joss did
again, and I would never spend one more cent on anything he has
already done.
Susan Sabo
> I have never, ever, EVER HATED!!!!!! an episode of ANY SHOW as much as I
> HATED Normal Again. I hate being f***** with that way.
>
I'm surprised that so many people feel this way. Being fucked with is one of
the reasons I love this show. You never know what to expect (so I think it's
best to just watch and enjoy the show, and try not to have *any*
expectations about what *should* happen).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Susan
I'm constantly amazed that I'm constantly amazed
by the actions of my government
nimue
I know. I hated it. End of all things Roseanne for me -- forever. I
haven't even watched a rerun, and I certainly will never watch
anything else she does.
Don Sample
<cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Alberich <Albe...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
> news:<MPG.1874194b4...@news.cyburban.com>...
> > It's Buffy's anguished remark to Willow is what got me: Buffy said "What
All of this is only a problem if you believe that the hospital was
"real" and the Buffyverse is the delusion. But if the hospital was the
drug induced delusion then none of Joss's world has been taken away
from us.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/
Quando omni flunkus moritati
nimue
Yes -- exactly. What we are saying is that if the final episode reveals the
hospital to be the "real" world, and the Buffyverse just a hallucination,
then we -- or perhaps I should just speak for myself, although I think
Alberich agrees with me -- I will feel utterly disgusted, dismayed, and
betrayed. I couldn't continue to invest time or money into a producer who
would do such a thing, and would withdraw my support for Joss and all his
creations if that happened. If I can't trust him; I can't be bothered.
nimue
>> I have never, ever, EVER HATED!!!!!! an episode of ANY SHOW as much
>> as I HATED Normal Again. I hate being f***** with that way.
>>
>
> I'm surprised that so many people feel this way. Being fucked with is
> one of the reasons I love this show. You never know what to expect
> (so I think it's best to just watch and enjoy the show, and try not
> to have *any* expectations about what *should* happen).
I do have one expectation -- that the world I am watching is "real." Bad
things can happen -- Joyce can die, Jonathan can die -- but I have to
believe that this world is "real." I suspended disbelief to buy into and
love the Buffyverse, and I need to have that respected.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Susan
>
> I'm constantly amazed that I'm constantly amazed
> by the actions of my government
--
Bill Bickel
was, it eliminates any possibility that Joss will actually end the series
with this premise.
Bill Bickel
http://www.comicsidontunderstand.com
http://crime.about.com/msubcomics.htm
http://www.missing-kids.us
Daryl Barnett
>
> All of this is only a problem if you believe that the hospital was
> "real" and the Buffyverse is the delusion. But if the hospital was the
> drug induced delusion then none of Joss's world has been taken away
> from us.
>
> --
> Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
> Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/
> Quando omni flunkus moritati
The drug made Buffy hallucinate. She was living in her real world, the
Buffyverse, and started to see something other that was different; the
quasi-reality of the mental hospital. The hallucinations were so strong
that she started to believe that it was another reality. She became torn
between two worlds, the new one of which offered some valid explanations
defining the old reality as unreal. But Buffy hallucinating in the
Buffyverse never physically entered the mental hospital. It was all of the
imagination. I think that she (in her real Buffyverse life) was deeply
seeking answers about the incredibly disrupted life that she was living and
could not figure out. She wanted answers and the schizophrenic experience
showed her a possible explanation. The hospital experience was never real.
She was never there.
db
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> "E. Deirdre Brooks" <kalima...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3E0FEE88...@attbi.com>...
> <snip>
> > Given the long series of Oz books Frank L. Baum wrote, I'm inclined to
> > go with your version. :)
>
> Lest there be any doubt, we all know that Ms. Brooks meant to write
> "L. Frank Baum".
I did!
> Conrad Risher -- who still smarts over making that mistake and losing
> It's Academic standing more than a few years ago
Ack. Over misplacement of an initial? Ack again.
nimue
Sing it, brother!
Susan
"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Susan Sabo wrote:
>>> I have never, ever, EVER HATED!!!!!! an episode of ANY SHOW as much
>>> as I HATED Normal Again. I hate being f***** with that way.
>>>
>>
>> I'm surprised that so many people feel this way. Being fucked with is
>> one of the reasons I love this show. You never know what to expect
>> (so I think it's best to just watch and enjoy the show, and try not
>> to have *any* expectations about what *should* happen).
>
> I do have one expectation -- that the world I am watching is "real." Bad
> things can happen -- Joyce can die, Jonathan can die -- but I have to
> believe that this world is "real." I suspended disbelief to buy into and
> love the Buffyverse, and I need to have that respected.
I can understand what you mean...in theory. It just seems kind of ironic to
me that a fantasy show needs to be "real." Don't take offense, not knocking
your views. I see it as kind of an inside joke I guess, maybe that's why it
doesn't bother me.
Lillith Blau
> <snip>
>
> I for one agree with you. I only started watching during the middle of
> season six, but caught up thanks to FX and DVD. Whedon doesn't seem to leave
> plot threads hanging -- how else do you explain this season dredging up a
> villain from a one-shot episode four seasons ago? Or Amy? Or mentioning in
> passing things that happened years ago. "Normal Again" -- I hope,
> personally -- won't be anything different. It's not unlike "Total Recall,"
> where everything that happens after the first 20 or so minutes is all a
> dream. If ME handles this carefully, I think it will be a great ending to
> the series. Perhaps it won't be purely a dream, maybe more like a link she
> has to an alternate dimension, which would explain why the characters that
> have moved on to "Angel" are persistent even when they're outside of
> Sunnydale.
>
> Alberich, don't let everyone give you crap...good theories, even if they are
> wrong, are worth developing.
>
> :) mike
IF there is a NA type ending, I would think that:
1) We will be talking alternate universe instead of dream universe.
2) Somehow Buffy leaving BuffyVerse will be heroic - maybe it saves BuffyVerse?
Lilly
Philip Chien
news:d394a7d.03010...@posting.google.com:
> NA was the most ugly, frightening episode. I
> hate having my emotional investment in the "reality" of the story
> betrayed.
Nimue,
You've said this many times - again and again. I think we understand your
feelings on this show.
You probably didn't even like the "Star Trek: Next Generation" episodes
where Piccard makes the comment - "who knows, maybe we're all just images
in a box on top of some table." (I actually had to get up and pat my
television set after hearing that remark.)
I believe you're mature enough (read: polite way for saying old) to
remember the Burns and Allen show? I always envied George Burns for having
a television set which could actually spy on the story as it was being told
- the ultimate fourth wall show!
Just the very fact that "Normal Again" has so many passionate posts about
it - so many months after it aired - says it was a special episode.
If you don't like the META story then here's the way to watch the show. A
demon injects Buffy with this poison which causes her to hallucinate. She
misses her mother and wishes her parents never separated so she
hallucinates this life where they're together and never broke apart. Buffy
blames herself on some level for their separation (if she didn't become the
Slayer then it wouldn't have lead to their fighting, her finding a woman's
hankerchief in her father's car, her blurting out to them that she was
seeing vampires and killing them - forcing them to put her into a clinic
for a couple of weeks). So Buffy's mind makes up this universe where she's
in a mental hosptial and Sunnydale doesn't exist. But once the posion
wears off enough Buffy's Slayer powers enable her to fight it and push away
the hallucinations until Willow can brew up another batch of the antidote.
Simple - your TV reality remains intact.
But for me the show works on many levels because I enjoyed the META story.
It's interesting that the doctor mentions a couple of lucid months last
summer - which would coincide with when Buffy was dead in our reality.
(using the term "reality" in a pretty sureal way here.) Yeah the story
really plays with your mind and teases you - that's part of the appeal.
Think about one of the only lines Willow sang in OMWF - "Or some kid is
dreaming, and we're all in his whacky Broadway nightmare". The 'kid' is
Joss Whedon, and isn't that line a pretty good description of the musical?
Bottom line - for an episode to get so many people so emotionally attached
and riled up, it has to be a pretty special one. And that alone puts it
into one of my favorites list.
Philip Chien
(pretty certain of what reality he's in - but maybe it is just a nightmare)
someone
> In article <Xns92F54775327BC...@65.82.44.10>, nob...@nowhere.com
> says...
>>One of the more interesting things about "Normal Again" is that, unlike the
>>other series mentioned ("St. Elsewhere", "Bob Newheart", etc.) it was not
>>the end of the series - or even the end of the season. It was just another
>>episodes that moved a bit of the story arc along as well as told its own
>>story.
>>
>>"Normal Again" would have made a *fantastic* last episode for Buffy. As it
>>was it was a *great* later portion of the season episode and for me one of
>>the highlights of the season. It can be interpeted many different ways and
>>each way has its own shades of gray and insights into the characters.
>>
couldn't agree more- an ambiquous NA-like ending would blow me away; if
others, who have infinitely more inside knowledge than me, are to be
believed, this will never happen, and I fear I'll be disappointed with
anything "less". It would be too delicious for so many reasons... I'm
certain you've thought of a few yourself :-).
>>If you don't like the META storyline then just assume that everything
>>inside the mental hospital was an illusion caused by the demon's poison.
>>
>>But for me "Normal Again" is certainly in my top ten list of Buffy episodes
>>- I like episodes which take risks with the series's concept and make you
>>think.
>>
>>Philip Chien
>>(who is pretty certain that if there's a "Normal Again"-like show for the
>>final episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" will be done in an innovative
>>way which is different from what other series have done before.)
>>
yep
> I also place "Normal Again" in my top 10, maybe 5, and think that it
> would have made an excellent series finale. SMG is a much underrated
> actor. (The way the episode ended made the hospital scene the reality.)
I disagree with your last point, but I am, after all, rooting for
ambiguity. otherwise, "me too".
ed rhodes
> "Shy Guy" <his__s...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:3cbP9.571$%a7.31...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com:
>
> > I haven't seen anyone mention Roseanne.
>
> Parenthetical note. Joss Whedon was a staff writer on "Roseanne" although
> I'm not certain which seasons. I have this longing suspicion that one of
> Darlene's friends who made the comment "We're just two normal people who
> like to dress up like Klingongs every now and then" came from Joss. It's
> interesting to note that at least three actors on Rosanne - Glenn Quinn,
> Alyson Hannigan, and Riff Regan (the original Willow) were cast in later
> Joss Whedon series.
> > Earlier in
> > the series, when the Becky character was recast with a second actress,
> > they paid homage to Bewitched and the two Darrins. Cute.
>
> More than once. When the original actress returned they did another
> homage, (ISTR to the Patty Duke show) and in a going to Disneyworld episode
> they had the actress who wasn't doing the role at the time do it along with
> an announcer saying "Tonight the role of Becky Connor will be played by"
> and even having the character say "Gee I'm glad I showed up this week" -
> some very nice nods to the audience when the show was IMHO far funnier than
> the final season.
I also remember "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" where they re-cast the aunt
and only "Jazzy Jeff" realized it. Next season when the original
actress came back, Jeff was <still> the only person to realize there'd
been a change... and he was the only one to see that the "baby" had
become five or six over the course of the summer!
ed rhodes
Disney did a sequal (Return to Oz) where they get Dorothy locked up
for talking about this magical place she's been to... when her doctor
finds in her stuff a key from Oz, he supresses it.
ed rhodes
> and who also thinks the Wizard of Oz is a great film,
> > ending included.)
>
>
> People are going to probably think I'm completely clueless for saying
> this but I have to confess , I always thought Oz was supposed to be
> real. I thought the ruby slippers magically transported her back to
> Kansas where she was found by her family who just assumed it was a
> dream and dismissed it.
Not to get too anal, but if your theory was correct, why was the house
still there when she woke up?
Eeyore48
>> It's
>>interesting to note that at least three actors on Rosanne - Glenn Quinn,
>>Alyson Hannigan
AH was on Rosanna? Anyone happen to know what character she played and
for what eps? TIA!
Eeyore48
Magic?
I don't know - that's what I always thought, too... Maybe just because,
for most of us, we first see it when we were kids - suspension of
disbelief is easy - and we grow up believing what we first thought. On
the other hand, maybe folks like me, who thought Oz was "real" (within
the confines of the movie) are just hopelessly naive - I also think the
guy in "Slaughterhouse Five" was really time traveling (unstuck in time)
and really went to another planet. I was apparently the only one in my
english class who didn't think he was just mentally ill...