Is the Big Scooby Death Such a Bad Thing? (Spoiler- whatever, we all know who it is)
Matthew Suke
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Is Tara dying such a bad thing? I'll be the first to concede that the
style in which she dies sucks. Obvious set up. Poor ploting. Far to
oportunistic sure, but is it really so bad? Frankly the Willow-Tara
stuff doesn't do a thing for me.
Let me rephrase that, it does something for me, but that's not what
I'm getting at.
Willow-Tara, fantasies aside (Willow-Tara-Amy-Buffy... that list goes
on...), doesn't really interest me as a plot line. I find this is the
case with most of the Season 4+ relationships. This isn't nostalgia
either. The first season I saw was Season 5. Also, none of the Buffy
relationships were all that interesting either. That Buffy-Angel stuff
was torturously repetitive and boring. That only got good when Angel
went bad, and I guess that's not much of a "couple thing" at that
point. Riley? Boring. Do we count Pike (Luke "Remember Me?" Perry)?
And the Buffy-Spike stuff is bottom of the barrel awful. Xander-Anya?
Eh. Hey, back to that Willow-Tara-Amy-Buffy fantasy, throw in Ms.
Calendar too.
I think the best relationships were the early Willow and Xander ones.
The original Willow-loves-Xander, Xander-Loves-Buffy stuff was great.
Remember the ice cream on Willow's nose? Classic.
Then the Willow-loves-Xander, Xander-Loves-Cordelia (and still Buffy)
was great stuff too. Then throw Oz in and it's Camelot.
Xander-Cordelia, Willow-Oz. Great stuff. And then Willow-Xander!! That
was an actual shock. I really wanted Wil to get Xander, but not like
that! What a great story line. Poor Oz and Cordelia! And then the get
back together stuff! And the Cordy-Xander dumpage!
Sure it was juvenile, but man it was a lot more fun, interesting, and
engrossing.
I could feel for Willow when she was longing for Xander. And Buffy's
let's be friends speech to Xander evokes that time you got shot down.
Who didn't freak out when Oz left town? Poor Willow was devestated!!
I can't say I feel that kind of investment in Willow-Tara, Xander-Anya
(I liked their song and dance though), and please just make
Buffy-Spike stop already.
Willow is the linchpin here. If she gets freed up, we can get back to
some of that goodness. Hell, Xander still loves Buffy, let's get Wil
back on Xander's case. Or maybe Xander-loves-Willow,
Willow-loves-Buffy. Let's get Oz back. I've seen Greg the Bunny! Seth
Green will have some free time on his hands next season.
- Matthew Suke
Silveragent
matsu...@yahoo.com (Matthew Suke) wrote:
From your mouth to God's ear.
Consider for a moment the ramifications of W/X:
1. Buffy's gotta be CAREFUL around her pals. Both are together and that
changes EVERYTHING.
2. The "Friends" discovery type sequence. Buffy finds out. Dawn finds
out. ANYA FINDS OUT. Lotta laughs/heartbreak/weird stuff can come out.
3. The standard "Bad Girl" redemption mode with "Wounded Good Guy" being
taken care of by "reforming bad girl". Think Faith/Wes for the kinda
heat that pairing would bring ESPECIALLY after Willow has killed
someone. Wow. And ME unfortunately cannot get Dushku. So W/X would be
the next best thing.
4. AH is a beautiful women. Did I mention AH is beautiful. Perhaps the
most beautiful gal on Buffy (and yes SMG is stunning). People really dig
her. Willow in a relationship -- especially one as complicated as W/X ??
A natural.
5. Willow can still be gay, with a "Xander exception" and allow Xander
some growth by accepting that and knowing that Tara will always be #1 in
Willow's heart, not caring since he knows Willow really loves him. A
more open and accepting Xander in a natural way. And a complicated but
loving relationship that WORKS.
6. Anya's natural rival is Willow. Always has been. Always will be. A
natural payoff to the vengeance has cost theme and a way for Anya to be
"noble" and accept the changed circumstances.
7. Spike saving Anya, Buffy, or Dawn merely incenses Xander (it works
for Buffy though). Since S7 requires a unified group (according to Joss
it's Buffy: Year ONE) then Xander would be required to be on board.
Willow saved by Spike while she's with Xander would allow Xander
acceptance after Spankya and the "scene" without igniting sexual
jealousy (Will essentially gay means no jealousy of Spike). Thus Spike
in whatever form can rejoin the group.
8. Anyone else think from Spoilers that Xander is nearly as suicidal as
Willow is ? A Xander suicide attempt in S7 followed by a ghostly
intervention by Tara to encourage Will to hookup with the one person who
loves Willow as much as Tara could well be in the cards.
9. NB said in an Aussie convention that "Tara will be back, but not as
we know her." Could Tara "possess" Xander in an attempt to make the W/X
more "Kitten friendly"? Perhaps -- it would be funny to see NB doing
AB's character stuck inside "Xander".
10. After Willow's drained of her power, the SG would seem to need a
witch. That means Amy, uncertain Anya, or a "possessed" Xander by Tara.
11. If S7 is the last we need ONE happy ending -- and Willow and Xander
are two of the saddest sack characters around and deserve some happiness
with each other -- their love for each other seems profoundly
illustrated in the S6 finale.
12. Welcome to The Hellmouth -- Xander scopes out Buffy, falls at
Willow's feet (and checks out her excellent legs). A fitting end to the
show by going back to the beginning. And yeah they could do it with
Willow still being fundamentally gay with Xander exception.
13. Willow pregnant would give a whole new meaning to "why we fight" and
allow for a "future slayer" bit with Willow's daughter having the slayer
birthmark. Fun huh?
Matthew Suke
tension again.
As far as the gay-except-for-Xander theory, I dunno that the show's gone
out of its way to portray Willow as gay. I mean is she off men for good?
I dunno that we can make that assumption. The whole Tara thing just
evolved in Season 4. It wasn't like OK, Willow's gay now. It was more
like, Willow's with Tara now. The story is about them, not about a
lifestyle choice. We can start tossing labels like gay, or bi around,
but even if we do, I don't think that's going to bind the character to a
certain course of action.
I think a new (or old) love intrest could easily be male. Also, with the
exception of age aside, I think Willow's relationship with Oz is just as
big as the Tara one. And the whole Willow-Xander connection, whether
sexual or otherwise is bigger than the both of them.
Later seasons have spent more time dealing with Buffy-Willow friendship
than on Xander-Willow. But they've been friends longer, and despite the
reduced screen time, we get reminders like in Hell's Bells that these
two are the closest in the series.
I don't want to speculate on the particulars, but I think the earlier
seasons had:
1. Evil Demons (not demons are people too)
2. Scary Demons (Not clem playing cards)
3. Endearing Relationships. Not the bigger than life ones. The
smaller, real, intimate ones that we can relate to.
- Matthew Suke
Guava Baby
For me it is. I'm not exactly upset about it since it had been spoiled to death,
so it certainly was no surprise, but I'm disappointed. There's not much reason
for me to watch the show anymore since I so, so, so don't care about any of the
remaining characters. I liked Giles and Tara - the only two whose values I could
relate to. I didn't always agree with them, but at least I mostly did. The rest
of the characters are disgusting. I may watch a few more eps but for me, there's
little point.
Leigh
Bethany Townsend
totally cheap, but now that she's out of the way, maybe things can get
better. Besides, Willow was always better with Oz and much more
interesting with Xander.
Also, if they do try something lame to bring Tara back, it's just
going to remind us of the stupid way they killed her! They're not
going to bring her back otherwise it'll undermine the effect of
killing characters on the show.
========================================
Bethy T
matsu...@yahoo.com (Matthew Suke) wrote in message news:<34425f29.02050...@posting.google.com>...
J. Aldridge
Everyone i know is saying its a bad thing. I just want to see the old stuff
again. Nerdy Willow (although her being dark is cool), goofy Xander, Oz and
Willow, Faith for heavens sakes!
This season has sucked. Looks like the final 3 eps will get better but
still...
"Bethany Townsend" <betha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:86f03b45.02050...@posting.google.com...
Janette
betha...@yahoo.com (Bethany Townsend) wrote:
>You're totaly on target Matt baby. The way they killed her off was
>totally cheap, but now that she's out of the way, maybe things can get
>better. Besides, Willow was always better with Oz and much more
>interesting with Xander.
is involved another series (Greg the bunny). After burning
his bridges behind him hell will freeze over before he
returns to BTVS.
-----------------------------------------------
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Janette
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away "J. Aldridge"
<j...@jageneration.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Finally, someone sees it my way! Thankyou Bethany!
>Everyone i know is saying its a bad thing. I just want to see the old stuff
>again. Nerdy Willow (although her being dark is cool), goofy Xander, Oz and
>Willow, Faith for heavens sakes!
>This season has sucked. Looks like the final 3 eps will get better but
>still...
-----------------------------------------------
Shorty
awhile but i have a real hard time believing a girl who had and
unrelenting crush on one guy for 18 years of her life all the sudden
becomes permanently gay.
On 8 May 2002 15:52:22 -0700, betha...@yahoo.com (Bethany Townsend)
wrote:
H. McDaniel
"Let's hope Tara stays dead"
I'll drink to that!
-McDaniel
H. McDaniel
> A long time ago in a galaxy far far away
> betha...@yahoo.com (Bethany Townsend) wrote:
> >You're totaly on target Matt baby. The way they killed her off was
> >totally cheap, but now that she's out of the way, maybe things can get
> >better. Besides, Willow was always better with Oz and much more
> >interesting with Xander.
> Except that Oz can't return. the Actor who played him
> is involved another series (Greg the bunny).
Played. Past tense. Say it slowly with me, "p-l-a-y-e-d". Oz can
return anytime. They might want to come up with some goofy "spell"
reason for why he looks different is all.
-McDaniel
ElfBard
> interesting with Xander.
Wh00t!! You tell em!
> Also, if they do try something lame to bring Tara back, it's just
> going to remind us of the stupid way they killed her! They're not
> going to bring her back otherwise it'll undermine the effect of
> killing characters on the show.
Honestly I think they allready have started undermining it. If they keep
going it wont be long before a dead scooby is met with Dragonball gags...
ElfBard
> Put Willow and Xander together finally!
Yes!
>I mean sure she was gay for
> awhile but i have a real hard time believing a girl who had and
> unrelenting crush on one guy for 18 years of her life all the sudden
> becomes permanently gay.
If she was ever "gay" at all. I *still* say she's bi.
Tim Bruening
Tim Bruening
ElfBard wrote:
> > Put Willow and Xander together finally!
>
> Yes!
But what about Buffy/Xander?
Janette
<cut_Xs_off_to_re...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Played. Past tense. Say it slowly with me, "p-l-a-y-e-d". Oz can
>return anytime. They might want to come up with some goofy "spell"
>reason for why he looks different is all.
Considering the bridges he burned with BTVS fandom I would
not hold my breath waiting for him to return to BTVS.
When he made the comments about Greg the Bunny IMHO he
did it knowing he was ending any chance he had of returning
to BTVS in any capacity.
Sure it is possible but all parties would have to be
very desperate to get to that point. I don't see that
happening.
H. McDaniel
> A long time ago in a galaxy far far away "H. McDaniel"
> <cut_Xs_off_to_re...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Played. Past tense. Say it slowly with me, "p-l-a-y-e-d". Oz can
> >return anytime. They might want to come up with some goofy "spell"
> >reason for why he looks different is all.
>
> Considering the bridges he burned with BTVS fandom I would
> not hold my breath waiting for him to return to BTVS.
You missed my point. The point is that the chracter Oz could be brought
back with somebody besides Seth playing the role given a sufficently
"goofy spell reason for why he looks different".
As to Seth's comments about BtVS... hey these people are all actors,
producers and writers included. When Joss sees Seth saying bad
things about BtVS it may not be as big a deal to him as it is to your
average fan(atic) BtVS watcher.
-McDaniel
Volin
"Tim Bruening" <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:3CDA14DC...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
Course they could go for Buffy/Xander/Willow - now if they went even more
adult that could keep the series going for several more years :-)
Smelsch
> Why?
Because characters who die (or rather, who are in the 'otherworld') in
dragonball routinely get wished back to life by Shenlong or Porunga...
the eternal dragons.... wooooo... it would sort of make sense. Buffy's
come back from the dead about as many times as Goku... :-)
ElfBard
> > Why?
>
> Because characters who die (or rather, who are in the 'otherworld') in
> dragonball routinely get wished back to life by Shenlong or Porunga...
> the eternal dragons.... wooooo... it would sort of make sense. Buffy's
> come back from the dead about as many times as Goku... :-)
And at the end of S4 she went SSJ1 ;P
ElfBard
> >
> > Yes!
>
> But what about Buffy/Xander?
What about it?
Hank Tiffany
Are you certain she is?
And I suspect that, even if she is all-the-way-dead, that the
...
{not
really
sure
if
this
is
a
spoiler
but what the hey
I'm feeling
spacey.
8-{)#
}
...big, smoky face in the prevue that says done, might just
be part of a scene where Willow sells her soul(or something)
to bring Tara back. Or maybe offers to go get Warren and
trade his in on Tara? And of course, Tara will be appalled.
Hank
Hitler, he only had one ball/Goering, had two but they were small
Himmler, was very simmlar/But poor old Goebbels had no balls at all
Shuggie
wrote:
>
>Are you certain she is?
>And I suspect that, even if she is all-the-way-dead, that the
>...
>
>{not
>
>
>really
>
>
>sure
>
>if
>this
>
>is
>
>a
>spoiler
>
>but what the hey
>
>I'm feeling
>
>spacey.
>
>8-{)#
>}
>...big, smoky face in the prevue that says done, might just
>be part of a scene where Willow sells her soul(or something)
>to bring Tara back. Or maybe offers to go get Warren and
>trade his in on Tara? And of course, Tara will be appalled.
>
Tara's dead. Deal. K?
--
Shug
TJMD
> Finally, someone sees it my way! Thankyou Bethany!
> Everyone i know is saying its a bad thing. I just want to see the old stuff
> again. Nerdy Willow (although her being dark is cool), goofy Xander, Oz and
> Willow, Faith for heavens sakes!
Yup, let the Scoobies live in the past and not grow up. Are you the
same as you were in High School? I know I'm not and that I've grown
since then. I'm glad they've changed since season 1. It's fun, it's
fresh, it's life.
> This season has sucked. Looks like the final 3 eps will get better but
> still...
To each their own, yes this season wasn't as good as some others, but
to me, it does not suck.
TJMD
TJMD
> You're totaly on target Matt baby. The way they killed her off was
> totally cheap, but now that she's out of the way, maybe things can get
> better. Besides, Willow was always better with Oz and much more
> interesting with Xander.
>
> Also, if they do try something lame to bring Tara back, it's just
> going to remind us of the stupid way they killed her! They're not
> going to bring her back otherwise it'll undermine the effect of
> killing characters on the show.
I was all for bring back Seth as Oz, but I don't want Tara dead. I
like her character, she has a normal feel to her. If anyone deserves
to die it's, it's... some bad guy.
TJMD
...I really like Tara she's just so normal.
lm
> Put Willow and Xander together finally! I mean sure she was gay for
> awhile but i have a real hard time believing a girl who had and
> unrelenting crush on one guy for 18 years of her life all the sudden
> becomes permanently gay.
>
hard time believing a girl could have a crush on a guy for 18 years
and suddenly becomes "permanently" gay? EVERY single one of my gay
friends (and one family member) liked/loved/dated/slept with the
opposite sex for years (not necessarily the sleeping with part) before
realizing they were gay. don't get me wrong, i loved willow and oz
but, uh, she's gay. sure some people go throught stages, change
sexual orentation more than once, but come on...
Paul Hammond
lm <dlux...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8220a1b3.02051...@posting.google.com...
> Shorty <notrea...@blah.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<16ujdugpc4gvt2n29...@4ax.com>...
> > Put Willow and Xander together finally! I mean sure she was gay for
> > awhile but i have a real hard time believing a girl who had and
> > unrelenting crush on one guy for 18 years of her life all the sudden
> > becomes permanently gay.
> >
> do any of you even know any gay people? whaddya mean you have a
> hard time believing a girl could have a crush on a guy for 18 years
> and suddenly becomes "permanently" gay? EVERY single one of my gay
> friends (and one family member) liked/loved/dated/slept with the
> opposite sex for years (not necessarily the sleeping with part) before
> realizing they were gay. don't get me wrong, i loved willow and oz
> but, uh, she's gay. sure some people go throught stages, change
> sexual orentation more than once, but come on...
Or bisexual, but otherwise, hey!
Personally, I'd hate it if they had Willow go back to dating
guys - it *would* kinda undermine the number of times
they've had Willow insist that she was GAY.
If they wanted to do Bisexual Willow, they shoulda had her
have a heart to heart with Xander one time, where they
work through all those feelings she had for X in
High School, and Xander says "Yes, what's with that?
You spend 10 years after me, and then turn gay?"
This, I say, would be a perfect opportunity for Willow
to have said psst - I'll tell you a secret - I still like
guys too!
Paul
Mark Evans
It's more like 15 years. Anyway maybe they still can,
whilst Xander mentions preying mantis, Inca mummy,
rogue slayer, vengance demon, woman who considered
him a "brother" and woman who decied she fancied girls.
Which probablty tops, demon android, werewolf, witch
and some heavy flirting from a vampire "twin sister".