AOQ Angel Review 1-9: "Hero"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads
ANGEL
Season One, Episode 9: "Hero"
(or "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men
do nothing")
Writers: Howard Gordon and Tim Minear
Director: Tucker Gates
Part of the fun of writing these reviews is watching shows that aired
years ago with completely unspoiled eyes, so that everything, even the
"surprises" that everyone knew about in advance due to the nature
of TV, can be truly surprising. When it works out. Sadly, no setup is
infallible. This episode, for example, contains a rather significant
event that I'd have preferred not to have stupidly spoiled myself
about (stupid Special Features...). Ah, well, I'll do my best to
judge fairly, the same way as the rest of us do when such things
happen. And at least I didn't read the spoiler until just before
watching "Hero..."
Another aspect of that comes in the teaser. I already pretty much knew
the Dark Avenger scene, having read it when scanning through the script
for "Corrupt." My thought at the time was that it'd have been
fun to see that filmed. And I got my wish, and for some reason it
didn't quite live up to what I'd expected. It's a funny idea,
and one which would seem to be just up the show's alley as far as
tone goes. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt, or maybe Carpenter doing
(intentionally) terrible acting annoys me on some visceral level. In
any case, this teaser ends up being one of the weaker ones, and we drag
on well into the first act before we do anything beyond shooting bad
commercials for AI. This did not have me feeling good about the
episode coming in.
Things pick up some once Doyle and Angel have their man-to-man chat.
This still isn't a great scene, since it involves so much dry
recapping of the previous episode, but the quiet way it's played
works, and it finally sets the appropriate mood for a story about
heroism. This is of course immediately followed by Doyle legitimately
trying to tell Cordelia about his demon heritage, before predictably
being interrupted by the episode developing a plot to go along with all
the thematic stuff - I'm just glad we didn't get a "what was it
you wanted to tell me?" "Oh, nothing," followup for once.
Angel's gang meets some demon-people more destitute than they are.
Most of the interactions are competent but not particularly exciting.
Actually, you can repeat that sentence at random intervals throughout
the rest of the review to cover any moments that I don't get around
to mentioning: competent but not particularly exciting.
Here Doyle's back-story is interesting enough, thanks in part to the
innovative and seldom-used device of actually showing the past in
flashback rather than just presenting it as expository dialogue. Plus,
Storytelling 101 says that if you want to see how someone's changed
as a person, you start by showing him leaving his "family" to die
while saving his own ass. A little obvious, but works for me. I
wasn't such a big fan of the scenes with the runaway kid, who
apparently upholds the tradition passed down through the generations of
not really being able to act.
It's come up before in these threads, but let's mention again that
there's been a change in the way demons are portrayed, at least the
half-breeds (of course, according to "Hero," vampires are
half-breeds too). On BTVS, demons were mostly treated as animals, and
killing one didn't "count" as any kind of manslaughter until at
least late S3, where they started bringing in some ambiguity. Here a
half-demon is treated as a human with a different body type. Given the
Genuine People Personalities, or semblance thereof, that a lot of
demons have managed, I welcome that change. I guess it bothers some
people?
I don't have an opinion yet about the neo-Nazi cultist demons.
It's a weird enough premise that I will simply state "huh." Same
response to Doyle's neck of unusual twistability.
Funny moments, although they're a bit silly include Cordelia with the
breath freshener, and later in that scene her repeated demands of "so
we're booking them on a cruise?" Also, Angel calling one of the
demons "football-head." It's mildly funny because it's true.
Cordelia ultimately learns the truth about our favorite visionary, and
doesn't really seem to care. Wasn't really expecting that. It's
a nice little scene.
Of course, I'd assume that this episode is mainly going to be
remembered for its last five minutes. That's what I remember, since
they were enough to bring my rating above Decent. As mentioned in the
intro, I did know that he was going to die, but not that it'd be in
this episode; I figured that out once Angel started talking about
jumping into the Light Of Banish Humans. I have to imagine it'd have
been something of a surprise otherwise, though. I feel like most shows
wouldn't kill of a main cast-member after nine episodes. They'd do
it earlier or later. This is so... mid-first-season.
So is Doyle the real deal in the hero department now? Has he
adequately atoned for his past inaction? It's still a moment filled
with stereotypical bravado, as he kisses the girl and swings off to
make his noble sacrifice. I'm going to say that if you're in a
situation where you're offered the chance to sit back and survive,
and you decide that the other guy is less expendable and do the job
yourself, you deserve to have a moment of action-movie heroics.
Although I like the idea of closing with the silent viewing of the
videotape and giving Doyle the last word, I wasn't really enamored of
the original scene in the first place, so it didn't do as much for me
as perhaps it could have. The exception to that is the very end -
"is that it? Am I done?" seems like a good way to say goodbye to
the character (even if IWRY ended with a similar phrase). He's a
hero here, but most of the time he was the closest thing ATS had to an
average guy. And for reasons I can't properly explain, now thinking
back on it I get a little sad thinking about him saying "Angel
Investigations is the *best*." Maybe because it's sad that the
last videotape of him is from before he found his inner hero and before
this operation he created had a chance to become much of a success.
They'll have to change the opening titles now, right? Doyle's in
one of the last shots and everything.
So...
One-sentence summary: Drags some, and then makes itself memorable in
the end.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season One so far:
1) "City Of" - Good
2) "Lonely Hearts" - Weak
3) "Into The Dark" - Good
4) "I Fall To Pieces" - Good
5) "Rm W/ A Vu" - Decent
6) "Sense And Sensitivity" - Weak
7) "The Bachelor Party" - Decent
8) "I Will Remember You" - Excellent
9) "Hero" - Good]
eli...@gmail.com
>the end.
>On BTVS, demons were mostly treated as animals, and
>killing one didn't "count" as any kind of manslaughter until at
>least late S3, where they started bringing in some ambiguity. Here a
>half-demon is treated as a human with a different body type.
I think that's partly because Angel is a demon himself, and partly due
to the different basis of the shows:
Buffy is a warrior, protecting people by killing the dangerous demons.
Angel *helps* people, which (sometimes) includes killing demons, but
generally the show is broader, if that makes sense.
Mohamel
The actor playing Doyle ,Glenn Quinn, died of a drug overdose in late
2002. Dies a Hero in the show but sadly goes in a most unfortunate way
in real life.RIP G.
mo
burt...@hotmail.com
> I don't have an opinion yet about the neo-Nazi cultist demons.
> It's a weird enough premise that I will simply state "huh."
Pretty glaring continuity error here, though, since only a dozen or so
episodes ago on BtVS, we were told that *all* demons on Earth are
half-breeds. You could fanwank that Anya just didn't know what she was
talking about, but given that she's been travelling in demon circles
for over a thousand years and has been shown to have pretty extensive
knowledge about demons, that really doesn't wash IMO.
Still, it was a good episode. Ah Doyle, we hardly knew ye....
Mel
Did the Scourge come from Earth, or from elsewhere?
Also, just because the Scourge _believe_ themselves to be "pure" demons,
that doesn't make it so. It may just be their excuse for killing what
they don't like.
Mel
eli...@gmail.com
(Why does that look wrong? I think I've forgotten how to spell today.)
- if such a thing existed.
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> >>I don't have an opinion yet about the neo-Nazi cultist demons.
> >>It's a weird enough premise that I will simply state "huh."
> >
> >
> > Pretty glaring continuity error here, though, since only a dozen or so
> > episodes ago on BtVS, we were told that *all* demons on Earth are
> > half-breeds. You could fanwank that Anya just didn't know what she was
> > talking about, but given that she's been travelling in demon circles
> > for over a thousand years and has been shown to have pretty extensive
> > knowledge about demons, that really doesn't wash IMO.
> >
> > Still, it was a good episode. Ah Doyle, we hardly knew ye....
> >
>
> Did the Scourge come from Earth, or from elsewhere?
As I recall, Anya said something like "all demons that walk the earth
are tainted." And given Doyle's flashback, we know that the Scourge
have been around for at least a few years.
> Also, just because the Scourge _believe_ themselves to be "pure" demons,
> that doesn't make it so. It may just be their excuse for killing what
> they don't like.
I initially thought so too, but if they hadn't been "pure," they would
have been killed by their own beacon.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> episodes ago on BtVS, we were told that *all* demons on Earth are
> half-breeds. You could fanwank that Anya just didn't know what she was
or maybe its the claims of purity that are as suspect among demons
as among humans
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-484C9...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Pretty glaring continuity error here, though, since only a dozen or so
> > episodes ago on BtVS, we were told that *all* demons on Earth are
> > half-breeds. You could fanwank that Anya just didn't know what she was
>
> or maybe its the claims of purity that are as suspect among demons
> as among humans
The difference is that in this instance, we have that beacon thingy that
kills all impure demons. Since they aren't killed by their own gadget,
their claims of purity seem somewhat objective.
eli...@gmail.com
>kills all impure demons. Since they aren't killed by their own gadget,
>their claims of purity seem somewhat objective.
Maybe they're from another dimension? This is what Giles said in 'The
Harvest':
"For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home,
their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this
reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that
remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain
creatures... [...] The books tell the last demon to leave this reality
fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed,
infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they
walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others
to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the
old ones to return."
I'm not saying the Scourge are old ones, since they seem to be acting
independently (and in defiance of orders from someone higer up), but
they could be from elsewhere, rtying to re-claim the Earth for
themselves:
"I say we will not stop until each and every half-breed is erased and
our purity rules this planet! We will not stop because the Higher Order
demands it!"
One Bit Shy
news:1146320621.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Another aspect of that comes in the teaser. I already pretty much knew
> the Dark Avenger scene, having read it when scanning through the script
> for "Corrupt." My thought at the time was that it'd have been
> fun to see that filmed. And I got my wish, and for some reason it
> didn't quite live up to what I'd expected. It's a funny idea,
> and one which would seem to be just up the show's alley as far as
> tone goes. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt, or maybe Carpenter doing
> (intentionally) terrible acting annoys me on some visceral level. In
> any case, this teaser ends up being one of the weaker ones, and we drag
> on well into the first act before we do anything beyond shooting bad
> commercials for AI. This did not have me feeling good about the
> episode coming in.
I'll give 'em credit for trying something a little different, and for how
the made up supper hero shtick sets up the ordinary hero story both in theme
and in the advertisement representations. I also enjoyed Cordelia being
self referential in the narration. But I still end up pretty much the same
place you do. It came across a lot flatter than it should have. Didn't
make me laugh much. Even the closing, "I heard that," which should have
been funny, seemed deflated by poor staging of the setup. (Doyle's prior
remark should have been more clearly an aside.)
I liked Doyle's commercial better, though it seemed less humorous than I
would expect initially. The reason for that, of course, becomes evident at
the end - and well worth the somewhat subdued tone here. It was funny
enough
> Things pick up some once Doyle and Angel have their man-to-man chat.
> This still isn't a great scene, since it involves so much dry
> recapping of the previous episode, but the quiet way it's played
> works, and it finally sets the appropriate mood for a story about
> heroism. This is of course immediately followed by Doyle legitimately
> trying to tell Cordelia about his demon heritage, before predictably
> being interrupted by the episode developing a plot to go along with all
> the thematic stuff - I'm just glad we didn't get a "what was it
> you wanted to tell me?" "Oh, nothing," followup for once.
I liked both of these scenes within the framework of the episode.
Especially how Doyle's words with Angel further set up the hero angle.
(Gullable me still didn't see any of this coming, so it work as a sad
remembrance much as the literal remembrance of Doyle's commercial works.)
However, they were both tainted by the sour taste left me from IWRY. First
Doyle finds out what happened with Buffy. And then Cordelia - of all
people. But does Buffy know? It just seems wrong.
> Angel's gang meets some demon-people more destitute than they are.
> Most of the interactions are competent but not particularly exciting.
> Actually, you can repeat that sentence at random intervals throughout
> the rest of the review to cover any moments that I don't get around
> to mentioning: competent but not particularly exciting.
Every scene with them was horrific to me. Not in the sense of bad acting -
which I didn't notice one way or the other - but in their representation of
holocaust victims. Their hollow look, being packed together, hiding in
holes, attempting to escape in a tramp steamer to some distant sanctuary
(promised land), clinging to a fading hope of some kind of divine
intervention that is becoming despair at divine abandonment. I think this
is the most dismal thing yet seen in either series - and it infuses the
whole episode with its mood.
> Here Doyle's back-story is interesting enough, thanks in part to the
> innovative and seldom-used device of actually showing the past in
> flashback rather than just presenting it as expository dialogue. Plus,
> Storytelling 101 says that if you want to see how someone's changed
> as a person, you start by showing him leaving his "family" to die
> while saving his own ass. A little obvious, but works for me.
The Doyle story as a whole works well for me and is what I think is best
about the episode. This part, however, gets a little shaky to my mind.
It's playing so strongly to the broader holocaust theme (standing by while
people are led off to die) that it tramples a little on Doyle's character.
Not that Doyle couldn't or wouldn't have acted akin to that. On the
contrary, it provides some logical sense to what makes up his character and
his coming demise. But it's such a forced path overwhelming story element
that Doyle's character becomes secondary to it and not terribly natural.
With this, what's the point now of The Bachelor Party? The reasons exposed
there for his running from life and his demon side now seem pretty much
irrelevant. Even banal.
> I
> wasn't such a big fan of the scenes with the runaway kid, who
> apparently upholds the tradition passed down through the generations of
> not really being able to act.
The depiction doesn't work very well for me, but I think they're trying to
show the attempt by one to rebel against the passive acceptance of fate by
the larger group. Passive acceptance, the small level of resistance, and
its own futility due to being outcast from everywhere are all holocaust
themes.
> It's come up before in these threads, but let's mention again that
> there's been a change in the way demons are portrayed, at least the
> half-breeds (of course, according to "Hero," vampires are
> half-breeds too). On BTVS, demons were mostly treated as animals, and
> killing one didn't "count" as any kind of manslaughter until at
> least late S3, where they started bringing in some ambiguity. Here a
> half-demon is treated as a human with a different body type. Given the
> Genuine People Personalities, or semblance thereof, that a lot of
> demons have managed, I welcome that change. I guess it bothers some
> people?
It doesn't bother me. The advantages of moral clarity with demons as
animals (let's say vicious evil animals) I think got used up some time ago
and largely gets bogged down with dull repetition. It's just more
interesting to have varying types. And both more interesting and truer to
the nature of the show to broaden the realm of moral ambiguity. I think the
Faith experience left moral clarity pretty tattered.
One interesting thing to me about the humanity of the demons in this episode
is how it works with the holocaust theme. We already know from Anya in BtVS
S3 that all the demons on earth are "tainted" - human/demon hybrids. Which
means that the Nazi demons are too - that their claim to some kind of racial
purity is meaningless. I like how that supports the Nazi theme - maybe the
only aspect I really like.
> I don't have an opinion yet about the neo-Nazi cultist demons.
> It's a weird enough premise that I will simply state "huh."
I'm not sure yet myself what I think of the episode's treatment of the
subject. It's kind of a big topic to lay upon the show. But I do think it
makes the show rather less than fun to watch. And while it does
thematically support Doyle's story, I think it may deflate a little the
power of it personally. Just my initial sense. I haven't fully assimilated
this yet.
> Same
> response to Doyle's neck of unusual twistability.
Poorly handled in my opinion - unless I missed a prior setup. Seems to me
there would have been ample opportunity back in The Bachelor Party (perhaps
during the fight) for the capability to be hinted at.
> Cordelia ultimately learns the truth about our favorite visionary, and
> doesn't really seem to care. Wasn't really expecting that. It's
> a nice little scene.
Excellent scene. They'd been setting up a kind of unwitting bigotry from
her for a while with various anti-demon remarks. But leave it to Cordelia
to state the obvious that she works for a vampire - also the guy she calls a
hero and wants to dress up in cape and tights. And I'm glad they got their
moment together before Doyle died. A little kindness for him at least.
> Of course, I'd assume that this episode is mainly going to be
> remembered for its last five minutes. That's what I remember, since
> they were enough to bring my rating above Decent. As mentioned in the
> intro, I did know that he was going to die, but not that it'd be in
> this episode; I figured that out once Angel started talking about
> jumping into the Light Of Banish Humans. I have to imagine it'd have
> been something of a surprise otherwise, though. I feel like most shows
> wouldn't kill of a main cast-member after nine episodes. They'd do
> it earlier or later. This is so... mid-first-season.
I think right around then is when most people would figure it out. They
might hope he would somehow survive, but the hero theme would demand that he
make the sacrifice, not Angel. A couple odd thoughts came to my mind...
I know that I hadn't exactly warmed up to Doyle, but gee, I didn't mean he
had to get killed.
Just prior to this episode I had been thinking what a small cast this series
had. Well, we're down to two regulars now, plus whatever Kate is. That's
awfully small.
With those two notions I can't help but wonder what Joss and company were
thinking. It feels like a series retooling is in the offing. Was Doyle
considered a failed character?
> So is Doyle the real deal in the hero department now? Has he
> adequately atoned for his past inaction? It's still a moment filled
> with stereotypical bravado, as he kisses the girl and swings off to
> make his noble sacrifice. I'm going to say that if you're in a
> situation where you're offered the chance to sit back and survive,
> and you decide that the other guy is less expendable and do the job
> yourself, you deserve to have a moment of action-movie heroics.
I sure think of him as a hero - and redeemed.
> Although I like the idea of closing with the silent viewing of the
> videotape and giving Doyle the last word, I wasn't really enamored of
> the original scene in the first place, so it didn't do as much for me
> as perhaps it could have. The exception to that is the very end -
> "is that it? Am I done?" seems like a good way to say goodbye to
> the character (even if IWRY ended with a similar phrase).
The scene works very well for me. I think it was written more for this
moment than the first, which is perhaps less than peferct writing, but it
still gets this part right. The other thing I like about it is that it
breaks the hold of the Nazi part of the story. It doesn't end with that
battle, but rather with the wistful remembrance of what was and might have
been.
> He's a
> hero here, but most of the time he was the closest thing ATS had to an
> average guy. And for reasons I can't properly explain, now thinking
> back on it I get a little sad thinking about him saying "Angel
> Investigations is the *best*." Maybe because it's sad that the
> last videotape of him is from before he found his inner hero and before
> this operation he created had a chance to become much of a success.
>
> They'll have to change the opening titles now, right? Doyle's in
> one of the last shots and everything.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Drags some, and then makes itself memorable in
> the end.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I can only give it a Decent. Perhaps some day I'll be able to better
appreciate the Nazi element of the story. But for now it just brings down
the good of Doyle's story for me. But at least that's good. Otherwise this
episode would be in the Weak to Bad range for me now.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:btr1702-BEEDCD...@news.giganews.com...
If you take their word for what their gadget does.
The Nazis claimed the Jews carried the genes for things like mental illness
and went through great pains to provide "scientific" proof linking insane
asylum inmates to that tainted gene pool.
Not all claims are true.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "BTR1701" <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:btr1702-BEEDCD...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article
> >> or maybe its the claims of purity that are as suspect among demons
> >> as among humans
> >
> > The difference is that in this instance, we have that beacon thingy that
> > kills all impure demons. Since they aren't killed by their own gadget,
> > their claims of purity seem somewhat objective.
>
> If you take their word for what their gadget does.
>
> The Nazis claimed the Jews carried the genes for things like mental illness
> and went through great pains to provide "scientific" proof linking insane
> asylum inmates to that tainted gene pool.
>
> Not all claims are true.
That's a good interpretation, and helps put an good spin on some of the
Holocaust imagery (which you noticed more than I did on first viewing,
and you're right that it seems too weighty for this episode to
support). I can't help feeling that we're thinking it through more
clearly than the writers were.
-AOQ
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:So is Doyle the real deal in the hero department now? Has he
:adequately atoned for his past inaction? It's still a moment filled
:with stereotypical bravado, as he kisses the girl and swings off to
:make his noble sacrifice.
There's something unusual about that kiss.
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Maybe it only kills demons that are less than 99 44/100% pure.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season One, Episode 9: "Hero"
>(or "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men
>do nothing")
>Writers: Howard Gordon and Tim Minear
>Director: Tucker Gates
>
<SNIP>
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Drags some, and then makes itself memorable in
>the end.
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
I hated and still hate the Nazi demons. I don't know if Joss or David
or whoever always intended to off Doyle, or the decision got made
along the way because of the actor's drug issues. Give Quinn credit
for being a professional on his last outing.
Too many demons, too many shadow worlds.
And what was with the WW2 motorcycle to cap it? Maybe this stuff works
better in a comic book.
Weak IMO. Would be worse but for the sadness of Doyle and the last
scene.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
since this was based on hitler et al
its instructive that hitler and himmler and the rest
did not fit into any of the categories of pure bred aryans
so they adjusted the categories to fit their glorious leaders
since they built the beacon themselves
they couldve adjusted its definitions of purity
to include themselves as pure
BTR1701
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> I think right around then is when most people would figure it out. They
> might hope he would somehow survive, but the hero theme would demand that he
> make the sacrifice, not Angel. A couple odd thoughts came to my mind...
>
> I know that I hadn't exactly warmed up to Doyle, but gee, I didn't mean he
> had to get killed.
>
> Just prior to this episode I had been thinking what a small cast this series
> had. Well, we're down to two regulars now, plus whatever Kate is. That's
> awfully small.
>
> With those two notions I can't help but wonder what Joss and company were
> thinking. It feels like a series retooling is in the offing. Was Doyle
> considered a failed character?
No, the actor was the failure. He had major drug problems and ultimately
died of an overdose after leaving the show. People claim that Whedon was
planning to kill off Doyle all along but that just doesn't pass the
sniff test with me. I suspect if he was planning to kill him off, it
would have been further down the road. It was a little too early in the
series run for them to be killing off major characters who they'd just
barely started fleshing out.
eli...@gmail.com
was written out so quickly. Which is a shame, because they had very
good chemistry on-screen.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> Maybe it only kills demons that are less than 99 44/100% pure.
You're not gonna jokey-reference your way out of this one.
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:1146320621.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> remembered for its last five minutes. That's what I remember, since
> they were enough to bring my rating above Decent. As mentioned in the
> intro, I did know that he was going to die, but not that it'd be in
> this episode; I figured that out once Angel started talking about
> jumping into the Light Of Banish Humans. I have to imagine it'd have
> been something of a surprise otherwise, though. I feel like most shows
> wouldn't kill of a main cast-member after nine episodes. They'd do
> it earlier or later. This is so... mid-first-season.
>
>
> videotape and giving Doyle the last word, I wasn't really enamored of
> the original scene in the first place, so it didn't do as much for me
> as perhaps it could have. The exception to that is the very end -
> "is that it? Am I done?" seems like a good way to say goodbye to
> the character (even if IWRY ended with a similar phrase). He's a
> hero here, but most of the time he was the closest thing ATS had to an
> average guy. And for reasons I can't properly explain, now thinking
> back on it I get a little sad thinking about him saying "Angel
> Investigations is the *best*." Maybe because it's sad that the
> last videotape of him is from before he found his inner hero and before
> this operation he created had a chance to become much of a success.
>
> They'll have to change the opening titles now, right? Doyle's in
> one of the last shots and everything.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Drags some, and then makes itself memorable in
> the end.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Obviously the ending is the highlight, and rescues what would otherwise be a
very weak episode. I mean, demon Nazi militias operating secretly in LA?.
And why do the refugees think they'll be safe on that island. The ending
redeems Doyle, and partly redeems the episode. But because I think the rest
of the episode seems much weaker to me, the ending only brings it up to a
good Decent. It is my 56th favourite AtS episode, 11th best in Season 1
--
Apteryx
Mel
BTR1701 wrote:
It kills all impure demons, or demons who are contaminated with
humanity? They could be impure hybrids, just not bred with humans. Or,
as I said before, maybe they don't originate from Earth or this
dimension so are "pure" where they come from.
It's pretty clear they aren't of the Old Ones class of pure demon.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Just prior to this episode I had been thinking what a small cast this series
> had. Well, we're down to two regulars now, plus whatever Kate is. That's
> awfully small.
Yeah, that is indeed awfully small. I don't know if it's relevant to
this point, but I'm reminded of what Mike Zeares posted in the "Lonely
Hearts" thread.
"The show had a bit of trouble finding its direction. The original
conception was that, as Buffy was a metaphor for teens, Angel would be
a metaphor for twenty-somethings. Then they remembered that Angel is
actually a 240 year old vampire. So the next idea, which became the
early promo slogan, was that Angel would help people fight their own
personal demons (while also fighting actual demons). The idea was that
it would be an anthology show, with the episodes built around guest
stars. Basically, your typical detective show, with a supernatural
twist.
"The exact point at which they remembered that their show was in fact
produced by Joss Whedon is left as an exercise for the viewer."
Right now it has splashes of a core-cast Whedon show, but is still
structurally set up like a detective show.
-AOQ
jil...@hotmail.com
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On BTVS, demons were mostly treated as animals, and
> >killing one didn't "count" as any kind of manslaughter until at
> >least late S3, where they started bringing in some ambiguity. Here a
> >half-demon is treated as a human with a different body type.
> I think that's partly because Angel is a demon himself, and partly due
> to the different basis of the shows:
> Buffy is a warrior, protecting people by killing the dangerous demons.
> Angel *helps* people, which (sometimes) includes killing demons, but
> generally the show is broader, if that makes sense.
Well, to AOQ and you, this is how I feel it goes:
Buffy is reactionary. She does not go out and murder random demons
because she sees one. I mean, heck she knows where Willy's is! She
fights and kills if she can the evil demons who are slaughtering people
(or just trying to). She lives on the Hellmouth, where the demons come
in an attempt to destroy the world.
There is no question that in the Buffy AND sub-verse of Angel vampires
are evil. The only vampire we know who is not evil is the one with a
soul, and he's pretty self-centered (which is not the same thing as
evil).
jil...@hotmail.com
I think they came from elsewhere. Also, didn't anyone notice that the
Scourge refer to humans as "mutants"? Like for example, they might
have mutated from demons?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> eli...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >On BTVS, demons were mostly treated as animals, and
> > >killing one didn't "count" as any kind of manslaughter until at
> > >least late S3, where they started bringing in some ambiguity. Here a
> > >half-demon is treated as a human with a different body type.
> > I think that's partly because Angel is a demon himself, and partly due
> > to the different basis of the shows:
> > Buffy is a warrior, protecting people by killing the dangerous demons.
> > Angel *helps* people, which (sometimes) includes killing demons, but
> > generally the show is broader, if that makes sense.
>
> Well, to AOQ and you, this is how I feel it goes:
>
> Buffy is reactionary. She does not go out and murder random demons
> because she sees one. I mean, heck she knows where Willy's is! She
> fights and kills if she can the evil demons who are slaughtering people
> (or just trying to). She lives on the Hellmouth, where the demons come
> in an attempt to destroy the world.
the slayer is the dogcatcher
if the dogs are obedient and harmless the dogcatcher can ignore them
if the dogs are dangerous the dogcatcher takes them
and puts them to sleep if necessary
> There is no question that in the Buffy AND sub-verse of Angel vampires
> are evil. The only vampire we know who is not evil is the one with a
> soul, and he's pretty self-centered (which is not the same thing as
> evil).
dogs dont have a conscience
they can be made vicious by training or breeding or pain
and have to be put down
but its not an issue of morality
jil...@hotmail.com
Yup!
But despite the angry-puppy analogy, vampires in this Joss-verse
are not dogs. They are not made vicious by training or breeding or
pain, THEY ARE VICIOUS by nature.
Patrick MM
news:1146346601.7...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I heard that he and David Boreanaz didn't get along, which was why he
> was written out so quickly. Which is a shame, because they had very
> good chemistry on-screen.
>
According to IMDB, that's not so: "Was good friends with David Boreanez and
Christian Kane of Angel. Both recall on the Season 5 DVD commentary how hard
and emotional it was for them to use the name Doyle and how much they miss
him."
Regardless of why it happened, I think killing Doyle was a great choice, the
character just didn't work that well, certainly not as well as the guy who
turned up to replace him. I don't think it's a coincidence that the series
really starts to improve around the time he gets killed off.
patrick
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
Don Sample
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
DB and Glenn Quinn continued to be seen together in public, after Quinn
had left the show. One of the rumours at the time was that they got
along *too* well, and Joss was worried that Quinn would pull Boreanez
down with him, with his substance abuse problems.
There was a certain amount of irony in the situation, since it was
rumoured that Quinn was brought in as Doyle because of Max Perlich's
(who played Whistler in Becoming) drug problems.
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> I can't help feeling that we're thinking it through more
> clearly than the writers were.
>
Bloody hell, yeah! And *that* is true of every long thread on this
newsgroup. BTVS & ATS have some fine writers, but even Joss, master
script-doctor and visionary overlord that he his, doesn't penetrate an
episode at the sub-atomic level as our collective criticism does. The
criticism is still valid, usually, and speculation can spark
fascinating discussion, but it's nice to remember that writers can't
spend 24 hours a day on their scripts. "Pause before wanking." :)
--Kevin
KenM47
They could have spent a little more time before coming up with this
pseudo-holocaust crap.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
If the writers had something symbolic in mind for the light thing, it hasn't
come to me yet. The best I've come up with is that it's mass killing
ability could represent genocide. But that's already been made clear in
other ways, so it doesn't seem necessary. At the moment I think it's mainly
a construct for killing Doyle.
But I would think it pretty sloppy writing on this theme if it really were
intended to validate their pure blood claim.
OBS
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Tim Minear has been quite active in various online formums, and for
quite a while his sig line was "I killed Doyle and I'd do it again. But
maybe lose the nazis, I dunno."
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> This episode, for example, contains a rather significant
> event that I'd have preferred not to have stupidly spoiled myself
> about (stupid Special Features...).
The rest of us were sufficiently spoiled. The news of Doyle's death was
announced by Wanda (now Kristin of E! TV) a month or so before it
happened. The one time she gets something right...
> Cordelia ultimately learns the truth about our favorite visionary, and
> doesn't really seem to care. Wasn't really expecting that.
Well, duh. She works for a vampire. I never have understood why people
thought Cordelia would have a problem with Doyle's heritage.
> They'll have to change the opening titles now, right? Doyle's in
> one of the last shots and everything.
Yeah, well...
> AOQ rating: Good
I give this one way more credit than it probably deserves, mostly for
the ending shot and for what it tried to do. Another bonus, of all the
characters Whedon has and will kill off, this is the one and only time
a character's death honored the character, so it got even more points
for that.
Terry
KenM47
KenM47
Hey! Jenny died because she was working late on the resouling curse!
That was pretty honorable.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Shuggie
> This episode, for example, contains a rather significant
> event that I'd have preferred not to have stupidly spoiled myself
> about (stupid Special Features...).
Oh please tell me you didn't watch the Season 1 overview? There are at
least 3 big surprises spoiled in that thing.
As a general rule the extras and commentaries on Buffy/Angel DVDs assume
you've already watched all the episodes, not only of the season you're
watching but future ones as well.
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
Jeff Jacoby
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1146320621.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>> Cordelia ultimately learns the truth about our favorite visionary, and
>> doesn't really seem to care. Wasn't really expecting that. It's
>> a nice little scene.
>
> Excellent scene. They'd been setting up a kind of unwitting bigotry from
> her for a while with various anti-demon remarks. But leave it to Cordelia
> to state the obvious that she works for a vampire - also the guy she calls a
> hero and wants to dress up in cape and tights. And I'm glad they got their
> moment together before Doyle died. A little kindness for him at least.
I can appreciate what they tried to do and why, but the
poor execution of the scene overwhelms everything else.
To me the scene came off very mechanical, ala:
- actor reads line from cue card
- actor assumes appropriate facial expression
- actor says line
- repeat till end of scene
I'm a fan of Ms. Carpenter's acting in the series, and of her
character, and I fully realize she's not going to be a great
actor of our times, but her acting in this scene was simply
(and uncharacteristically, IMO) horrible. Quinn's wasn't much
better.
Maybe it was the editing, the directing, or whatever--and not
the acting--but it still stunk. Really ruined what should have
been a great scene.
Jeff
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > This episode, for example, contains a rather significant
> > event that I'd have preferred not to have stupidly spoiled myself
> > about (stupid Special Features...).
>
> Oh please tell me you didn't watch the Season 1 overview? There are at
> least 3 big surprises spoiled in that thing.
No, it was from the actor bios. I thought I'd heard that Quinn had
died, so i was taking a look. But the actor bios are filled with
details about the characters, too...
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:htudnTjMwZL...@comcast.com...
I just went back and looked at it. What I think you're reacting to appears
to me to be a pacing issue induced from the way the scene is written. Most
of the lines are of the type that require a reaction, but only non-verbal is
provided. So the scene goes speak, pause, speak, pause, etc. It's a little
odd, and neither of them are especially good actors to make it work.
Whatever the cause, I think I recognize what you're talking about and
acknowledge it as less than good.
The thing is that the situational power is still there. Emotionally I'm
reacting to what's happening more so than how it's depicted. That goes to
my own philosophy of watching. I love good depictions and can be taken out
of a scene by particularly bad ones. But for the vast world in between I
tend to tolerate the unevenness of depiction and try to go with the idea as
it works in my head. If the idea doesn't work, then it's hopeless. But if
it works, then I'll go with the scene. The idea is great here, IMO. And
the depiction functionally serves it adequately. Just how I see things.
(And of course, that pacing issue - or whatever - may come across to you
like fingernails on a blackboard.)
I'm glad I looked again, incidentally. I didn't notice the CGI effect
during the kiss the first time.
OBS
Lord Usher
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>> Also, just because the Scourge _believe_ themselves to be "pure"
>> demons, that doesn't make it so. It may just be their excuse for
>> killing what they don't like.
>
> I initially thought so too, but if they hadn't been "pure," they would
> have been killed by their own beacon.
Not necessarily. They could've just been "pure enough" by whatever
arbitrary standard the beacon assayed -- perhaps a race of demons who
hybridized with humans only once way back at the dawn of civilzation, and
from that point on reproduced independently. (Unlike, say, vampires, who
rely on human hosts to reproduce.)
After all, Buffyverse demons who are *really* pure aren't humanoid at all
-- they're giant quasi-Lovecraftian horrors like the ascended Mayor.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
BTR1701
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Either that or the writers just aren't being consistent across the two
shows.
Espen Schjønberg
>
> The difference is that in this instance, we have that beacon thingy that
> kills all impure demons. Since they aren't killed by their own gadget,
> their claims of purity seem somewhat objective.
Angel survived from the same distance they did.
I didn't like this "nuke" though. Too powerful.
Also, this "neo-nazi" thing was a bit- I don't know why I didn't like it.
Obviously, there are good demons, evil demons, and neutral demons. To
let the neutral demons live as a right is to go a bit far from me.
(Please no spoilers for future episodes in this thread.)
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Espen Schjønberg
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>Cordelia ultimately learns the truth about our favorite visionary, and
>>doesn't really seem to care. Wasn't really expecting that.
>
>
> Well, duh. She works for a vampire. I never have understood why people
> thought Cordelia would have a problem with Doyle's heritage.
It shows she is bigger than expected. But they wanted us to believe she
still was the selfish girl, wanting to pretend she lived a normal life,
among humans.
It should be a big difference between working with another human for a
vampire, and working just for demons.
Of course, I knew she would cope at this stage. She knew the world
wasn't what she had thought anymore.
I think.
--
Espen
Espen Schjønberg
>
> Regardless of why it happened, I think killing Doyle was a great choice, the
> character just didn't work that well,
I beg to differ. It really started to work for me. And I need some
warming-up, a process both Angel and Cordy already had finished with
success.
So to expect Doyle to work from the start, would have been unfair.
Really, given the advantage Angel and Cordy had had, he was not at all
lagging.
They couldn't know how well the new planes would work when they killed
Doyle. (As this is a review of 1-9, let us not go into that discussion
here. Later.)
RIP , Glenn Quinn.
--
Espen
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> That's a good interpretation, and helps put an good spin on some of the
> Holocaust imagery (which you noticed more than I did on first viewing,
> and you're right that it seems too weighty for this episode to
> clearly than the writers were.
>
I think you're right about that, and that they were going for something
a bit simpler -- all demons are somewhat 'tainted' with humanity, but
some are much more human than others. At one end of the spectrum you've
got the Old Ones, which are Lovecraftian monstrosities, pure demons. At
the other end of the spectrum you've got Doyle and the halfbreeds from
this episode.
All the other demons are somewhere in between, some leaning a lot more
heavily toward the Old One side, some more human.
Sam
One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> If the writers had something symbolic in mind for the light thing, it hasn't
> come to me yet. The best I've come up with is that it's mass killing
> ability could represent genocide. But that's already been made clear in
> other ways, so it doesn't seem necessary. At the moment I think it's mainly
> a construct for killing Doyle.
>
> But I would think it pretty sloppy writing on this theme if it really were
> intended to validate their pure blood claim.
>
> OBS
The thing is, the show pretty much does validate their pure blood
claim. The actual demon mythology of the show is pretty much exactly in
line with the Scourge's claims. Which, in retrospect, was maybe a
reason not to go with Nazi imagery for them.
On the other hand, given the idea of demons as an entire order of being
with an inverted sense of morality -- for (nearly all) demons, good is
evil and evil is good -- I have to admit there's something sort of
intriguing about the idea that for demons, Nazism is 'right'.
--Sam
One Bit Shy
I don't know how it validates it if they'e not pure demon. The
mythology is that the demons that walk the earth are demon-human
hybrids.
OBS
Sam
One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> I don't know how it validates it if they'e not pure demon. The
> mythology is that the demons that walk the earth are demon-human
> hybrids.
>
> OBS
But some are far more human than others -- as shown by the fact that
virtually every demon is inherently evil, except for the rare few who
have so thoroughly crossbred with humans as to be effectively human
themselves.
Every demon is somewhat hybridized. But the Judge clearly has a whole
lot less human parentage than Doyle. The Scourge have some human blood,
as shown by the fact that they're bipedal and have basic bilateral
symmetry, as opposed to the utterly inhuman Old Ones -- but they're
also obviously of the 'irredeemably evil, soulless monster' variety
that seems to make up the huge majority of the demon population, the
only real exceptions to which are a the results of bizarre one of a
kind circumstance (ie, Angel) or a handful of demons like Doyle or the
family in "Hero," whom we are explicitly told have interbred so
thoroughly that even other demons see them as mostly human.
--Sam
alphakitten
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>>This episode, for example, contains a rather significant
>>event that I'd have preferred not to have stupidly spoiled myself
>>about (stupid Special Features...).
>
>
> The rest of us were sufficiently spoiled. The news of Doyle's death was
> announced by Wanda (now Kristin of E! TV) a month or so before it
> happened. The one time she gets something right...
>
>
>>Cordelia ultimately learns the truth about our favorite visionary, and
>>doesn't really seem to care. Wasn't really expecting that.
>
>
> Well, duh. She works for a vampire. I never have understood why people
> thought Cordelia would have a problem with Doyle's heritage.
Probably because she wasn't considering dating Angel. Her being happy to
work for a demon didn't guarantee she'd be okay with smooching one.
~Angel
James Craine
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>I don't have an opinion yet about the neo-Nazi cultist demons.
>>It's a weird enough premise that I will simply state "huh."
>
>
> Pretty glaring continuity error here, though, since only a dozen or so
> episodes ago on BtVS, we were told that *all* demons on Earth are
> half-breeds. You could fanwank that Anya just didn't know what she was
> talking about, but given that she's been travelling in demon circles
> for over a thousand years and has been shown to have pretty extensive
> knowledge about demons, that really doesn't wash IMO.
>
> Still, it was a good episode. Ah Doyle, we hardly knew ye....
>
By the standards of the typical racial-purist type nearly
every human is a half-breed. But that doesn't stop them from
proclaiming some are and some aren't.