AOQ Review 7-6: "Him"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
(or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: Michael Gershman
Just to show that one never can tell, "Him" starts with one of the
strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose. They even end up being a
team again. Good to know that Buffy did in fact tell the others about
the soul, since I was imagining for some reason that she'd keep all
her associations with Spike secret. Said soul has wisely been used, as
with Darla, not to simplify or predictable-ize things; no one except
possibly Peroxide Boy really knows exactly what the difference is
between then and now. Even better than the opening is the follow-up
Buffy/Dawn conversation... or so it seems. Buffy acts, for a fleeting
moment, open with her sister in a way that she hasn't been in the
past, frankly talking to her about the things she doesn't understand,
spurred on by Dawn's occasional nudges. "I'm just trying to
understand." Both the scene and the episode start to teeter when she
brings up Xander leaving Anya at the altar - um, what the hell does
that have to do with anything? - and then both collapse with a thunk
at the same time as Dawn does. Komedy and stuff.
It's time once again to ask the question that most recently also
defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
of a loss to explain why this episode exists or why anyone thought it
was a good idea, especially on the heels of something as great as
"Selfless." My first thought was that maybe it was meant as a look
at the teenage lust that was part of the early days of the show, from
an outside perspective. There's never any doubt from moment one that
Dawn is under the influence of something supernatural. The plot could
have been something out of an S1/2 episode, except that the viewer
isn't seeing things from Dawn's perspective, but rather from the
more adult view, looking back on the incomprehensible melodrama of it
all. Seeing Buffy try to get through to her sister and listening to
the latter whine and pout for half the show isn't particularly
entertaining (or even watchable), sure, but maybe there's some
thematic purpose, which could maybe be expanded by Buffy suddenly
finding herself in that same situation?
Maybe someone enjoys treating the characters badly - finds it either
fun or uncomfortably poignant to see Dawn ignored, make a fool of
herself, get involved in catfights, and so on, and then seeing everyone
else brought down to her level too? Or maybe it's a commentary on
guys like R.J., who have the evil power to, simply by existing, turn
all women into conniving sex-crazed bitches... okay, I really don't
see how that works on a metaphorical level, so forget it.
Maybe it's all an inferior attempt to recapture the alleged magic of
"Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered," which is directly referenced
at one point, and indirectly referenced by making Xander the sane one?
The very idea of an inferior version of 3B makes my mind boggle, so
it's probably best not to pursue that line of thought either; the
worst parts of "Him" aren't as actively worthy of lobbed bricks,
but there's very little good to be found on the side. Most of what
is worth watching comes, not surprisingly, from the unaffected guys and
the pre-thralled, who provide the occasional good reaction to the
insanity around them (love Xander and Willow with the consecutive
double-take after seeing Dawn's face in the Bronze). The piecing
together the story of the jacket and its unsuspecting bearers fails to
particularly suck.
And while I'm taking an interlude to mention good things about the
episode:
"Is sitting there drinking soda some kind of a Zen non-answer?"
"I'm just saying... once you get back the soul, doesn't that mean you
start, like, picking up your own wet towels off the floor?" "No,
but maybe you start to feel really bad about leaving them there."
(While we're on 3B, though, let me just mention that I very much
don't like Xander's wistful "good times!" in response to an
event that almost left him dead, involved violating his friends'
minds in a way that put them in humiliating situations, left him
thoroughly ashamed of himself, and so on. Maybe that's just my
dislike for that episode coming through, though, so I imagine that
those who liked it might be able to take the callback more as harmless
fun.)
In any case, though, maybe I'm way overthinking it, and someone
thought this story would simply be a lot of fun, without a deeper
meaning? The four-way montage and music during the last act certainly
suggest that this is the primary purpose of "Him." As does the
very idea of Willow being attracted to a guy, and responding by trying
to "fix" him (I'm telling you: bi, and in denial). This comic
absurdity actually succeeds exactly once, during the moment in which
Buffy and her really big gun go after Principal Wood. Something about
the music, his non-reactions, the way we only see it through the
window, Spike heroically staggering around with the weapon... this is
fairly amusing. The rest is quite tiresome, but the series has managed
inexplicably beloved bad comedy episodes before. I half expect all you
insane troll comedy people to inform me that seeing our hero stammering
and blushing like a kid half her age is the height of thigh-slapping
hilarity, and it's my sense of humor that's broken.
Or maybe it's just a bad idea executed badly?
One moment that's quite funny, although it's not meant to be, is
Buffy saving Dawn from having her head split by the train, apparently
through the well-known Slayer skill of distorting space and time.
Again, no matter what malady the writers choose to afflict her with,
she's the Protector. The method, though... the train appears to be a
few seconds away from making contact, and our gang isn't that far
away. Buffy takes at least that much time just getting up on top of a
train, then rides it for maybe a second, then hops back down, and is
there in the (ta-da!) nick of time. That kind of badness is almost an
art.
Anya's run as a masked burglar and not talking about it afterward
feels like half a joke. How would this tie into the plot at all (maybe
she wants to become fabulously wealthy and able to provide goods and
services for her man? EVS), and why is she so reluctant to talk about
it? Is the show trying to do something long-term with this story or
something? Note that the idea of D'Hoffryn sending demons to kill
Anya also makes roughly no sense at all, unless there's more that the
series hasn't told us yet. I dunno. I'm tired of thinking about
this - let's move on. No more love spells and lust-glamours, okay,
show? Those things? Never a good idea.
So...
One-sentence summary: Bleah.
AOQ rating: Bad
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad]
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe that's just my
> dislike for that episode coming through,
Gee, d'ya think?
This is my "guilty pleasure" episode. A homage to the S2 B-movie homages
(most of which I dislike - go figure). 100% dumb, broad and not so much
with the deep.
Worth it just for this:
XANDER: Oh. Oh! No! "Daddy"? No, I wasn't? When I was looking, I wasn't?
Oh, God!
WILLOW: Right there with ya.
and:
ANYA: His physical presence has a penis!
WILLOW: I can work around it!
>(I'm telling you: bi, and in denial).
XANDER: Will, honey... R.J.'s a guy.
WILLOW: I did notice that, yeah. 'S why I'm doing my spell, 'cause, you
know, he doesn't have to be.
She doesn't want the stick...
And quite a few others.
> Those things? Never a good idea.
Memo to self: Never forget AoQ's lack of a sense of humour.
Somebody on the UK group drew an ascii diagram of how the train thing
worked. The editing was still diabolical though. I vaguely recall that
this was because they had one less train than they needed (but might be
mis-remembering).
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Aaron Forever
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
>
> defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
> of a loss to explain why this episode exists or why anyone thought it
> was a good idea, especially on the heels of something as great as
> "Selfless." My first thought was that maybe it was meant as a look
> at the teenage lust that was part of the early days of the show, from
> an outside perspective. There's never any doubt from moment one that
> Dawn is under the influence of something supernatural. The plot could
> have been something out of an S1/2 episode, except that the viewer
> isn't seeing things from Dawn's perspective, but rather from the
> more adult view, looking back on the incomprehensible melodrama of it
> all. Seeing Buffy try to get through to her sister and listening to
> the latter whine and pout for half the show isn't particularly
> entertaining (or even watchable), sure, but maybe there's some
> thematic purpose, which could maybe be expanded by Buffy suddenly
> finding herself in that same situation?
>
Answering the question "why" (does this exist)... I'd say it's probably
because after season 6 (and during it, even) they decided that they had
to follow up big, dramatic, depressing episodes with frivolous light
comedy. In the first 3... or even 4 or 5 seasons, each episode was
usually a balance of comedy and drama. In S6 & 7, the writers,
producers, whoever, became too enamored with themselves and the idea
that they were being Arty and Important that they lost that balance.
Which is how you get episodes like this... so they can say "hey, we're
still a funny show." Despite not usually being funny when they go this
direction.
Terry
news:1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
I enjoyed the comedy of this episode enough, I guess, but I can't really
disagree with any one of your points. I think the highlight is definitely
all the background stuff going on. Which maybe isn't a good thing.
> (maybe
> she wants to become fabulously wealthy and able to provide goods and
> services for her man? EVS)
*snicker* Have you been watching Rockstar: Supernova?
- Terry
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Bleah.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
>
I knew you'd hate this one just because of your dislike of BBB but it's
funny darn it! A particular highlight for me is when Xander and Spike
visit RJ's brother and Spike walks over to the shelf and subtly starts
turning the angels around to face away from him. Amusing.
Plus, it had the Charlie's Angels Montage! And the Bazooka made a
comeback! Sometimes an episode full of silly fun can actually be fun
without having any big meaning behind it.
George W Harris
The execution of Spike and Xander's cunning
plan to deprive R.J. of the magic jacket.
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
>>
> defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
> of a loss to explain why this episode exists or why anyone thought it
> was a good idea, especially on the heels of something as great as
> "Selfless."
Hehe. "Him" is one of my guiltiest of pleasures. After it aired, I
asked, "what drugs were the writers on, and where can I get some?"
Ever since, I have dealt with the episode by pretending that I'm
really, really stoned. 'Cause everything's funny when you're stoned!
Um, so I'm told.
>>
> In any case, though, maybe I'm way overthinking it, and someone
> thought this story would simply be a lot of fun, without a deeper
> meaning?
Yeah. Go with that.
There are many things that I love about "Him." I'll just list a few.
- Dawn's squeak-and-fall-down maneuver. I was like, yay, running gag!
- Summers still drives like a spaaaaaz!
- The ep follows Rule #1 of BtVS comedy: make Emma say "penis."
- Whoa, Gellar, you run like a spaaaaaz! Inadvertently funny, that
one, but always makes me grin. It's the flailing arms.
- Wood's little "hmmmm" look, *after* all the commotion in the
background. I don't know why that's funny, but I love it.
- "I'm in the management program."
And now we come to the most important part of the episode. I refer, of
course, to Dawn Dancing. I think the DOMFDD had been formed after the
musical, but this was our greatest moment. I'll also give kudos to
Michelle for her flouncing, eye-rolling, sneering, and general
bratting. Her "I don't care" had Faith overtones. Well done.
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
> Plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose. They even end up being a
spike and xander sitting in a tree
k-i-
who wouldve thunk those crazy kids would ever get together again
> Maybe someone enjoys treating the characters badly - finds it either
> fun or uncomfortably poignant to see Dawn ignored, make a fool of
> herself, get involved in catfights, and so on, and then seeing everyone
> else brought down to her level too? Or maybe it's a commentary on
its painful to watch dawn through the cheerleader
until the comedy starts
> insanity around them (love Xander and Willow with the consecutive
willows bi
> In any case, though, maybe I'm way overthinking it, and someone
> thought this story would simply be a lot of fun, without a deeper
> meaning? The four-way montage and music during the last act certainly
im an angel
you dont look like an angel
im a special kind of angel - im a charlies angel
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> One moment that's quite funny, although it's not meant to be, is
> Buffy saving Dawn from having her head split by the train, apparently
> through the well-known Slayer skill of distorting space and time.
> Again, no matter what malady the writers choose to afflict her with,
> she's the Protector. The method, though... the train appears to be a
> few seconds away from making contact, and our gang isn't that far
> away. Buffy takes at least that much time just getting up on top of a
> train, then rides it for maybe a second, then hops back down, and is
> there in the (ta-da!) nick of time. That kind of badness is almost an
> art.
One thing that a lot of people seem to miss, was that there were two
trains, running in opposite directions on parallel sets of track. Buffy
had to get past train A in order to save Dawn from train B on the far
tracks.
Buffy
>>>>>>>>Train A>>>>>>>>>>>>========================================
=============================D============<<<<<<<<<Train B<<<<<<<<<
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
Not one of my favourite episodes. The bit with Dawn trying out for the
cheerleading squad is the most painful scene in all of Buffy. I just
can't watch it.
I did keep hoping to see someone show up with a feather boa, though,
every time "A Summer Place" started to play.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
.
> Just to show that one never can tell, "Him" starts with one of the
> strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
> to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
> favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
> Plus ?a change, plus c'est la meme chose. They even end up being a
> team again.
Agreed. The Spike-Xander scenes are the highlight of this episode. I
especially liked their encounter with RJ's brother Lance. Also good is
the scene at the Bronze, at least until Buffy tries to put a stop to
Dawn's sexy dance. As you say, pretty much all the decent parts come when
we're watching people who are not currently under RJ's thrall.
> understand." Both the scene and the episode start to teeter when she
> brings up Xander leaving Anya at the altar - um, what the hell does
> that have to do with anything? - and then both collapse with a thunk
> at the same time as Dawn does. Komedy and stuff.
The Dawn-thunk might have been slightly funnier if we hadn't already seen
a far better one in STSP. I guess Dawn's comment about Xander leaving
Anya at the altar, as an example of the evil that people can do even
with souls, was intended to show Dawn's romantic, idealistic views about
love and relationships.
> (While we're on 3B, though, let me just mention that I very much
> don't like Xander's wistful "good times!" in response to an
> event that almost left him dead, involved violating his friends'
> minds in a way that put them in humiliating situations, left him
> thoroughly ashamed of himself, and so on. Maybe that's just my
> dislike for that episode coming through, though, so I imagine that
> those who liked it might be able to take the callback more as harmless
> fun.)
For what it's worth, I don't hate Him as much as you seem to, but I still
don't enjoy this particular bit of harmless fun. Perhaps the best thing
is to just assume that Xander is joking. (The shooting script implies
otherwise, though -- it says that Xander has "gone all dreamy" during the
flashback.)
The very worst part, for me, was Dawn's cheerleading routine. It was
totally predictable and unfunny, or rather, only funny if you're amused
when characters you love humiliate themselves. I'm just the opposite -- I
find that even harder to watch than characters I love finding their
mother's dead bodies or getting shot or nearly getting raped. That
probably says more about my appearing-in-front-of-crowd phobia than it
does about Him.
I actually think Michelle did a pretty good job with the material that she
was given -- better than Sarah in this case. And at least Dawn didn't
shriek "get out!" this time.
Some other things that bothered me: If every female who saw the jacket
fell under its spell, then why wasn't *every* girl in school after RJ?
Anya seems unnecessarily worried about being identified as the mystery
bandit (maybe she's still low on self-confidence after Selfless?). It
would have been better to have some explanation for the jacket, even just
a single line about RJ's father getting it from the notorious demon X;
just saying "eh, Hellmouth" was unnecessarily lazy. And it also would
have been nice to have a scene with RJ struggling in the post-jacket
world.
> AOQ rating: Bad
I wouldn't go that far. There are enough good laughs to partly make up
for the rest of it. It doesn't reach the level of classic dumb-but-funny
episodes like Pangs, though. I'll give it a high Weak (to raise it above
Beer Bad's Weak), maybe even a very very low Decent.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
>
> strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
> to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
> favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
> Plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose. They even end up being a
> team again. Good to know that Buffy did in fact tell the others about
> the soul, since I was imagining for some reason that she'd keep all
> her associations with Spike secret. Said soul has wisely been used, as
> with Darla, not to simplify or predictable-ize things; no one except
> possibly Peroxide Boy really knows exactly what the difference is
> between then and now. Even better than the opening is the follow-up
> Buffy/Dawn conversation... or so it seems. Buffy acts, for a fleeting
> moment, open with her sister in a way that she hasn't been in the
> past, frankly talking to her about the things she doesn't understand,
> spurred on by Dawn's occasional nudges. "I'm just trying to
> understand." Both the scene and the episode start to teeter when she
> brings up Xander leaving Anya at the altar - um, what the hell does
> that have to do with anything? - and then both collapse with a thunk
> at the same time as Dawn does. Komedy and stuff.
>
> It's time once again to ask the question that most recently also
> defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
> of a loss to explain why this episode exists
snip
> One-sentence summary: Bleah.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
Yep. Too much bitching about how dark and relentlessly grim s6 had
been. So s7 had to pepper its darkness with perky humor. Somehow,
though, the edge has gone out of the comedy here--no one's heart is in
it. The comedy depends on situation, not clever writing, and the
episode therefore looks like Happy Days with fangs. The one moment I
liked was the tacit nod to bad 1970s TV with the gag about Charlie's
Angels, which is to BtVS's feminism what Kool Whip is to Devonshire
cream. Or something.
And I did like the little scene of Wood working at his desk while in
the background Spike tackles Buffy in dumbshow, seen through a
TV-screen-like window. Again, the gag itself is stale, but DB Woodside
has good comic chops and a nice way with a deadpan. And I liked seeing
Spike's heroism lampooned a little. The more Spike grows into his
Suffering Hero role, the harder it is to laugh about him. So that was a
nice bit of leavening.
As for the Dawn Sexeh Dance, deliberately echoing Buffy's s1 Sexeh
Dance (not to mention Cute Boy giving her his jacket): Yeah yeah we get
it: Dawn is the next generation of Summers girls to go to Sunnydale
High and fall for a vampire. As Anya's favorite philosopher says,
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. I kept
hoping the episode would do something substantive with the
repetition--give us some hint at least that there are Forces At Work
compelling Dawn to repeat her sister's history. Or something, Maybe it
was there, but I didn't see it.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Whoops. Am moron. The Cute Boy giving jacket to Dawn is the other
irritating Dawn episode, "All the Way," from s6. The two blur in my
mind. Poor tiresome Dawn: her taste in guys makes Buffy's look
reasonable.
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > One moment that's quite funny, although it's not meant to be, is
> > Buffy saving Dawn from having her head split by the train, apparently
> > through the well-known Slayer skill of distorting space and time.
> > Again, no matter what malady the writers choose to afflict her with,
> > she's the Protector. The method, though... the train appears to be a
> > few seconds away from making contact, and our gang isn't that far
> > away. Buffy takes at least that much time just getting up on top of a
> > train, then rides it for maybe a second, then hops back down, and is
> > there in the (ta-da!) nick of time. That kind of badness is almost an
> > art.
>
> One thing that a lot of people seem to miss, was that there were two
> trains, running in opposite directions on parallel sets of track. Buffy
> had to get past train A in order to save Dawn from train B on the far
> tracks.
one of the side issues that bothers me is the train didnt brake
its practically impossible for train at speed
to stop in the time the engineer sees someone on tracks
but they are still supposed to use emergency brakes and whatever else
and then afterwards wait for the ambulance and-or coroner
theres nothing quite like hearing the wheels crunch over a human body
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> compelling Dawn to repeat her sister's history. Or something, Maybe it
> was there, but I didn't see it.
as the great freud himself pointed out
sometimes a rutabaga is just a rutabaga
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > (maybe
> > she wants to become fabulously wealthy and able to provide goods and
> > services for her man? EVS)
>
> *snicker* Have you been watching Rockstar: Supernova?
Was wondering if anyone would pick up on that. It's a great phrase to
use semi-ironically at random, so expect many more reviews to contain
it.
-AOQ
~we're not allowed to call them "Supernova" anymore, since the original
band of that name successfully sued to get it back~
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-12DC7...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-AA3616...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One moment that's quite funny, although it's not meant to be, is
> > > Buffy saving Dawn from having her head split by the train, apparently
> > > through the well-known Slayer skill of distorting space and time.
> > > Again, no matter what malady the writers choose to afflict her with,
> > > she's the Protector. The method, though... the train appears to be a
> > > few seconds away from making contact, and our gang isn't that far
> > > away. Buffy takes at least that much time just getting up on top of a
> > > train, then rides it for maybe a second, then hops back down, and is
> > > there in the (ta-da!) nick of time. That kind of badness is almost an
> > > art.
> >
> > One thing that a lot of people seem to miss, was that there were two
> > trains, running in opposite directions on parallel sets of track. Buffy
> > had to get past train A in order to save Dawn from train B on the far
> > tracks.
>
> one of the side issues that bothers me is the train didnt brake
> its practically impossible for train at speed
> to stop in the time the engineer sees someone on tracks
> but they are still supposed to use emergency brakes and whatever else
> and then afterwards wait for the ambulance and-or coroner
That assumes that the engineer even saw anything. A fair number of
train accidents have been caused by the engineer being asleep on the
job.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > One moment that's quite funny, although it's not meant to be, is
> > Buffy saving Dawn from having her head split by the train, apparently
> > through the well-known Slayer skill of distorting space and time.
> > Again, no matter what malady the writers choose to afflict her with,
> > she's the Protector. The method, though... the train appears to be a
> > few seconds away from making contact, and our gang isn't that far
> > away. Buffy takes at least that much time just getting up on top of a
> > train, then rides it for maybe a second, then hops back down, and is
> > there in the (ta-da!) nick of time. That kind of badness is almost an
> > art.
>
> One thing that a lot of people seem to miss, was that there were two
> trains, running in opposite directions on parallel sets of track. Buffy
> had to get past train A in order to save Dawn from train B on the far
> tracks.
It still looks ridiculous, given how much time it takes her to get up
and down relative to how close the train is to Dawn when we see her.
And I thought there was only one train too until I read the transcript,
so it's badly shot if that's such a common misconception.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.
And in this very same scene, we also have Buffy at least partially
excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."
I remember thinking back when I first saw this that we were going to be
in for a hell of a lot of Spike canonization this season, often at the
expense of the other characters. I really hoped I was wrong about
that....
Arbitrar Of Quality
Malsperanza wrote:
> Yep. Too much bitching about how dark and relentlessly grim s6 had
> been. So s7 had to pepper its darkness with perky humor. Somehow,
> though, the edge has gone out of the comedy here--no one's heart is in
> it. The comedy depends on situation, not clever writing, and the
> episode therefore looks like Happy Days with fangs.
I like the way you put that.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
Well said. I agree completely.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And here we have one of the show's worst moments ever - Dawn comparing
> Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
> Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
> is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
> fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
> the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.
I may try pretending that it tells us something or other about Dawn's
view of life or EVS, rather than being intended as a legit comparison.
Feel free to do the same if it'll help.
> And in this very same scene, we also have Buffy at least partially
> excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."
That's more of an explanation for the soul-quest than an excue, I
think. Though I feel like she's basically excusing Soul!Spike for
everything wrong the evil version did. Which, like it or not, is not
exactly without precedent for this character.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
i doubt the engineer would be asleep in a rail yard
anyway its a generic movie-tv issue of mine
trains and buses hit people or nearly hit them
without an emergency braking or stopping after
in the first blade movie a city bus nearly hits a girl
which does happen
but the bus never brakes nor stops after nor anything else
again a bus cannot stop quickly safely
but there will be an effort
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
i saw it as a scale and safety problem
the trains used in the filming have to be going dead slow
(in some of the shots you can tell the trains are only going a few mph)
also it doesnt look like a big yard
so youve got slow trains in a small yard with plenty of safety in the shoot
and they have to make it look fast and over a large distance
and at great danger
and some point you either watch another show
or squint your eyes and swallow the premise
Arbitrar Of Quality
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> i saw it as a scale and safety problem
> the trains used in the filming have to be going dead slow
> (in some of the shots you can tell the trains are only going a few mph)
> also it doesnt look like a big yard
>
> so youve got slow trains in a small yard with plenty of safety in the shoot
> and they have to make it look fast and over a large distance
> and at great danger
>
> and some point you either watch another show
> or squint your eyes and swallow the premise
How about watching a different episode of the same show?
-AOQ
Terry
> Terry wrote:
>
>> *snicker* Have you been watching Rockstar: Supernova?
>
> Was wondering if anyone would pick up on that. It's a great phrase to
> use semi-ironically at random, so expect many more reviews to contain
> it.
I just love that all his fans were using EVS as a rallying cry. "Hey,
Toby! You're so awesome and dreamy! WHATEVER!!!! You're like the most
whatever guy EVER!"
>
> -AOQ
> ~we're not allowed to call them "Supernova" anymore, since the original
> band of that name successfully sued to get it back~
Actually, they've decided the band name is "Rockstar Supernova."
Unfortunately, I'm not kidding. I'm also not a Lukas girl... you'll find
me on the Magni tour.
Ok, back to your regularly scheduled Buffy feast!
- Terry
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
i mean puh-lease
youre telling me theres this hole under the library
where all these monsters come out to play?
is everybody here really stoned?
One Bit Shy
news:1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Just to show that one never can tell, "Him" starts with one of the
> strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
> to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
> favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
BUFFY: It's not coddling. Now go to your closet.
Eh. The scene's OK - mainly just for the moving of Spike to Xander's place.
But I didn't get much else out of it other than the line above that I like.
> Even better than the opening is the follow-up
> Buffy/Dawn conversation... or so it seems. Buffy acts, for a fleeting
> moment, open with her sister in a way that she hasn't been in the
> past, frankly talking to her about the things she doesn't understand,
> spurred on by Dawn's occasional nudges. "I'm just trying to
> understand." Both the scene and the episode start to teeter when she
> brings up Xander leaving Anya at the altar - um, what the hell does
> that have to do with anything?
Broadly it's about love making people act crazy - the theme of the episode.
Specifically it's a response to the notion that getting a soul would make
Spike a better man. I think it's actually kind of natural. Dawn is just
picking an example of a souled guy she knows (and she doesn't know many)
acting badly so as to illustrate that the soul isn't all that it's cracked
up to be.
I rather like this conversation - including the Xander part. But the best
is just hearing Buffy wonder about her feelings.
> - and then both collapse with a thunk
> at the same time as Dawn does. Komedy and stuff.
Oh, no. We all know what that means.
> It's time once again to ask the question that most recently also
> defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why?
I know nothing.
But I'll guess. Aside from wanting generally to have a silly comedy
somewhere, I think they wanted a Dawn in high school episode with some
romance and a chance for her to be sexy. I also think that they are
consciously paying homage to early series episodes - this time BB&B. Part
of a final season farewell. In spite of your opinion of BB&B, that was a
very popular episode.
> but maybe there's some
> thematic purpose, which could maybe be expanded by Buffy suddenly
> finding herself in that same situation?
I think love will make you crazy is about it.
> Maybe someone enjoys treating the characters badly - finds it either
> fun or uncomfortably poignant to see Dawn ignored, make a fool of
> herself, get involved in catfights, and so on, and then seeing everyone
> else brought down to her level too?
To the extent that there was any real character stuff in this episode (which
isn't a very far extent), I'd say Dawn got the most. Obviously her
infatuation wasn't real, but I think they attempted to show some real stuff
around the edges. Letting loose in the Bronze and subsequent confrontation
with Buffy feels like a preview of what has to come their way eventually.
Their personalities seem to demand it. Dawn's sense of trust in and then
betrayal by Buffy gets at how tied to Buffy Dawn feels, and both the
yearnings and fears she's built into the bond. Mostly I'd say they played
on Dawn's sense of being the little girl in a world of giants. (Even though
she's not the shortest one there. <g>) She feels she can't win. The
competition is too far in front of her. They played on that at least 3
times with the gang in the hallway, the cheerleading tryout & the
culminating competition with Buffy, Anya & Willow.
I guess you could say she won that competition too, by coming up with the
biggest gesture. If you were going to draw some grand conclusion, then I
suppose this would be it. In the competition Buffy went for violence,
Willow went for magic & Anya went for money - all super-obvious one word
descriptions of their personal drives. Dawn goes for suicide.
I'm not saying that actually means anything. But you were looking for some
kind of deeper purpose, so I'm pointing out what was offered.
> Or maybe it's a commentary on
> guys like R.J., who have the evil power to, simply by existing, turn
> all women into conniving sex-crazed bitches... okay, I really don't
> see how that works on a metaphorical level, so forget it.
I have a suspicion (no particular foundation) that somebody on the writing
staff took the opportunity to ridicule some old high school football hero
who got the girls. The kicker is R.J.'s brother. As in that's all those
strutting roosters ever amount to.
> Maybe it's all an inferior attempt to recapture the alleged magic of
> "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered," which is directly referenced
> at one point, and indirectly referenced by making Xander the sane one?
I think so, yes.
> (love Xander and Willow with the consecutive
> double-take after seeing Dawn's face in the Bronze).
The Bronze scene (all of it really) is, I think, the best in the episode.
Maybe the only one I'd genuinely call good. (You see, I don't really like
this episode. But I'm having fun talking about it because I can't believe
you could really get in such a tizzy over a silly little comedy.)
> The piecing
> together the story of the jacket and its unsuspecting bearers fails to
> particularly suck.
The scene with the brother is decent. I like Spike looking at the angels
and then turning them away from him.
Spike, on the other hand seems very odd to me through these scenes. Abashed
and mad keeps him quiet? I don't know. But he doesn't seem to have any
personality. He's just sort of there doing what he's told.
> In any case, though, maybe I'm way overthinking it
No! <g>
> The four-way montage
Here I think it actually does get a little amusing for a while, very briefly
reaching a genuinely hysterical level with Buffy and her rocket launcher.
That generates a guffaw out of me when she approaches the window, and again
when she chases Spike.
> Anya's run as a masked burglar and not talking about it afterward
> feels like half a joke. How would this tie into the plot at all (maybe
> she wants to become fabulously wealthy and able to provide goods and
> services for her man? EVS), and why is she so reluctant to talk about
> it?
It was illegal and she presumably still has the money.
Anya: OK, great, ice cream. My treat.
> Note that the idea of D'Hoffryn sending demons to kill
> Anya also makes roughly no sense at all,
Noted.
> So...
> One-sentence summary: Bleah.
> AOQ rating: Bad
The comedy is about as lightweight as it gets, but very little of it
actively bothered me, while here and there I enjoyed the moment. Dancing
Dawn and reaction is a definite highlight - as is the rocket launcher.
None of which has anything to do with what I don't like about the episode,
and I'll never tell.
Weak
OBS
Jeff Jacoby
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
>> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
>
>
>> Just to show that one never can tell, "Him" starts with one of the
>> strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
>> to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
>> favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
>> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
>
> BUFFY: It's not coddling. Now go to your closet.
>
> Eh. The scene's OK - mainly just for the moving of Spike to Xander's place.
> But I didn't get much else out of it other than the line above that I like.
Uh, why does Buffy put Spike with Xander? I mean, if
she's so concerned about Spike being in the school's
basement, why doesn't she offer her own? Or why doesn't
Xander suggest this?
Jeff
Ari
> That's more of an explanation for the soul-quest than an excue, I
> think. Though I feel like she's basically excusing Soul!Spike for
> everything wrong the evil version did. Which, like it or not, is not
> exactly without precedent for this character.
I don't see the logic in blaming Spike for anything he did soulless
either, when basically the whole soul/soulless thing was used to allow
Angel to do very bad things and then still be able to come back from
it. Heh. This reminds me of how to further their own agendas, some fans
will come up with the wankiest of theories on why one deserves to be
condemned but not the other. At one point I would even have called it a
common phenomena.
Ari
> Spike, on the other hand seems very odd to me through these scenes. Abashed
> and mad keeps him quiet? I don't know. But he doesn't seem to have any
> personality. He's just sort of there doing what he's told.
I think quiet looks good on him. It's a welcome change of pace to see
him tone it down a couple hundred notches.
Arbitrar Of Quality
>
> One thing that a lot of people seem to miss, was that there were two
> trains, running in opposite directions on parallel sets of track. Buffy
> had to get past train A in order to save Dawn from train B on the far
> tracks.
>
> Buffy
>
> >>>>>>>>Train A>>>>>>>>>>>>========================================
>
> =============================D============<<<<<<<<<Train B<<<<<<<<<
Two trains are approaching Sunnydale from opposite directions,
beginning 80 miles apart. One train travels northbound at 40 miles per
hour and the other travels southbound at 40 miles per hour. A slayer
runs back and forth between the front ends of the trains at a constant
speed of 10 miles per hour. At the moment that the trains meet in
Sunnydale, what total distance will the slayer have traveled?
-AOQ
Don Sample
Jeff Jacoby <jja...@not.real.com> wrote:
Considering what happened in "Seeing Red," and the rest of their history
from last year, she doesn't want to be sleeping in the same house as him.
Scythe Matters
> AOQ rating: Bad
Yeah, there was no chance in hell that you'd like this one.
I really enjoy the seventies montage, and especially the audacity to try
it. I laugh out loud at the rocket launcher/Wood/Spike scenes and their
setup/postlude. And that's really about the it. The rest is mostly
dismal, save a line or two here or there.
> Maybe someone enjoys treating the characters badly - finds it either
> fun or uncomfortably poignant to see Dawn ignored, make a fool of
> herself, get involved in catfights, and so on, and then seeing everyone
> else brought down to her level too? Or maybe it's a commentary on
> guys like R.J., who have the evil power to, simply by existing, turn
> all women into conniving sex-crazed bitches... okay, I really don't
> see how that works on a metaphorical level, so forget it.
Heh.
> Maybe it's all an inferior attempt to recapture the alleged magic of
> "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered," which is directly referenced
> at one point, and indirectly referenced by making Xander the sane one?
As OBS noted, your hatred for that episode is not universally shared.
I view "Him" much in that fashion. They tried for the same sort of vibe
as "BB&B." But with all the history, backstory, seriousness, etc., it
just doesn't work anymore. The humor in "Selfless" (or more relevantly,
"Lessons") worked. This doesn't. Humor doesn't exist in a vacuum.
> (While we're on 3B, though, let me just mention that I very much
> don't like Xander's wistful "good times!" in response to an
> event that almost left him dead, involved violating his friends'
> minds in a way that put them in humiliating situations, left him
> thoroughly ashamed of himself, and so on. Maybe that's just my
> dislike for that episode coming through, though, so I imagine that
> those who liked it might be able to take the callback more as harmless
> fun.)
You think?
In retrospect, I can definitely see Xander's reaction. It makes sense.
Especially after the last episode, where he should be questioning his
entire existence and its purpose.
> Or maybe it's just a bad idea executed badly?
Well, yeah. Thankfuly, the next episode is completely of the good.
> Anya's run as a masked burglar and not talking about it afterward
> feels like half a joke.
I agree. I always felt like they left a punchline on the cutting room
floor here. (I don't know what it would have been.)
The next episode happens very soon, if you own the DVDs. Move on. Soon.
What else is there to say? Dawn...anorexic but sexy, I guess.
Willow...I'm with you here, but don't want to re-ignite the endless
bi/gay argument. Hannigan's good while the episode allows her to be
non-cartoony. Buffy is actually nicely drawn. Ditto Dawn, given the
limitations of the storyline (which are major). But mostly, there's very
little for the actors to do in the face of this crap.
OBS:
> But I'm having fun talking about it because I can't believe
> you could really get in such a tizzy over a silly little comedy.
Yes. A continuing problem for AoQ. "Bad" is not necessarily wrong for
this episode, but the episode is just not that important. He needs an
"eh..." rating.
> Spike, on the other hand seems very odd to me through these scenes. Abashed
> and mad keeps him quiet? I don't know. But he doesn't seem to have any
> personality. He's just sort of there doing what he's told.
You can just see the "unresolved plot line" theme bubbling and stewing.
There's so much with Spike that seems to beg exploration. He really
seems to be hiding something, and not just from Xander.
I just think this episode is sloppy. One tiny little good idea, beaten
into the ground until it's no longer amusing...like SNL these
days...without much conseuquence. Thankfully (for you) you'll only have
one more purely comedic episode to deal with. Everything else is quite
serious, even when it's not.
Ari
shameless fangirly ways on the ever so disdaining masses and because no
one else will mention it, I will. Did anyone catch Thad Luckinbill's
guest appearance on Nip/Tuck this week? Dayum, he really does have a
nice ass. The rest of him isn't so bad either. Definitely improved with
age and better clothing. :drools: Next time I watch this episode, I'll
probably be checking out R.J.'s rear end right along with Anya and
Willow. Tee hee hee.
One day I swear I will post something of actual substance, but alas
today is not that day.
Apteryx
news:1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>threads.
>It's time once again to ask the question that most recently also
>defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
>of a loss to explain why this episode exists or why anyone thought it
>was a good idea, especially on the heels of something as great as
>"Selfless."
Clearly to make up for the severe humour shortage lately. It would have been
better if they had been trickling more humour into the heavy epsidoes we
have seen lately, but by this stage I proabably rate Him a little higher
than it deserves simply because an injection of humour was so clearly
needed.
>Maybe someone enjoys treating the characters badly - finds it either
>fun or uncomfortably poignant to see Dawn ignored, make a fool of
>herself, get involved in catfights, and so on, and then seeing everyone
>else brought down to her level too? Or maybe it's a commentary on
>guys like R.J., who have the evil power to, simply by existing, turn
>all women into conniving sex-crazed bitches... okay, I really don't
>see how that works on a metaphorical level, so forget it.
I'd say it was more about having fun. Some people like that.
>Maybe it's all an inferior attempt to recapture the alleged magic of
>"Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered," which is directly referenced
>at one point, and indirectly referenced by making Xander the sane one?
Definetely an infertior BBB. But I'm comfortable with that.
>And while I'm taking an interlude to mention good things about the
>episode:
>"Is sitting there drinking soda some kind of a Zen non-answer?"
>"I'm just saying... once you get back the soul, doesn't that mean you
>start, like, picking up your own wet towels off the floor?" "No,
>but maybe you start to feel really bad about leaving them there."
You don't even mention the reminder that MT is really great at falling? She
should do it more often.
>(While we're on 3B, though, let me just mention that I very much
>don't like Xander's wistful "good times!" in response to an
>event that almost left him dead, involved violating his friends'
>minds in a way that put them in humiliating situations, left him
>thoroughly ashamed of himself, and so on. Maybe that's just my
>dislike for that episode coming through, though, so I imagine that
>those who liked it might be able to take the callback more as harmless
>fun.)
Pretty much. Plus a comment on the rosying effect of memory, because that
pretty clearly wasn't Xander's attitude at the end of BBB.
>suggest that this is the primary purpose of "Him." As does the
>very idea of Willow being attracted to a guy, and responding by trying
>to "fix" him (I'm telling you: bi, and in denial).
In fact, initially being prepared to "work around" his penis.
>This comic
>absurdity actually succeeds exactly once, during the moment in which
>Buffy and her really big gun go after Principal Wood. Something about
>the music, his non-reactions, the way we only see it through the
>window, Spike heroically staggering around with the weapon... this is
>fairly amusing.
That's probably the highlight of the episode for me too, although I'd rate
it better than fairly amusing.
>The rest is quite tiresome, but the series has managed
>inexplicably beloved bad comedy episodes before. I half expect all you
>insane troll comedy people to inform me that seeing our hero stammering
>and blushing like a kid half her age is the height of thigh-slapping
>hilarity, and it's my sense of humor that's broken.
At least your predictive abilities are still working well
>Anya's run as a masked burglar and not talking about it afterward
>feels like half a joke. How would this tie into the plot at all (maybe
>she wants to become fabulously wealthy and able to provide goods and
>services for her man? EVS), and why is she so reluctant to talk about
>it?
How many masked robbers aren't reluctant to talk about what they've done?
AOQ rating: Bad
A low Good for me. A bit better than Beer Bad and Gone, not quite as good as
Inca Mummy Girl (and a long way short of BBB). It's my 73rd favourite BtVS
episode, 6th best in season 7
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
spike still has a chip and cannot harm any humans except buffy
(v xabj v xabj)
plus having attempted rapist - even he is not responsible for that
in the basement of the house where your little sister lives
icky
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > And here we have one of the show's worst moments ever - Dawn comparing
> > Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
> > Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
> > is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
> > fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
> > the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.
>
> I may try pretending that it tells us something or other about Dawn's
> view of life or EVS, rather than being intended as a legit comparison.
> Feel free to do the same if it'll help.
The problem is that, since Dawn was never shown to be very upset about
Xander leaving Anya at the altar, and since she *really* doesn't like
Spike at this point in the series, this really does seem like a case of
the writers talking through her, rather than something that would be
in-character for her to say. I actually could say more here, but not
without spoilers.
> > And in this very same scene, we also have Buffy at least partially
> > excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."
>
> That's more of an explanation for the soul-quest than an excue, I
> think. Though I feel like she's basically excusing Soul!Spike for
> everything wrong the evil version did. Which, like it or not, is not
> exactly without precedent for this character.
Actually, thinking about it, you don't even need a new version. Given
what the writers did with Willow after her murderous rampage last year,
they definitely are being consistent in their disgusting and
reprehensible moral message that says that doing the most horrible and
evil things is perfectly okay so long as you feel bad about it
afterward....
Rincewind
>
> ... Thankfully (for you) you'll only have one more purely comedic episode
> to deal with.
What episode are you talking about?
If it is Fgbelgryyre I totally disagree: it is not purely comedic, it is
another Selfless: very serious stuff presented in a classic Espenson comedic
way.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: Oh, look! Sensible shoes!
Paul Hyett
:
>>
>> One thing that a lot of people seem to miss, was that there were two
>> trains, running in opposite directions on parallel sets of track. Buffy
>> had to get past train A in order to save Dawn from train B on the far
>> tracks.
>
>It still looks ridiculous, given how much time it takes her to get up
>and down relative to how close the train is to Dawn when we see her.
>And I thought there was only one train too until I read the transcript,
>so it's badly shot if that's such a common misconception.
I never thought there was only one train.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Paul Hyett
:
>>
>I knew you'd hate this one just because of your dislike of BBB but it's
>funny darn it! A particular highlight for me is when Xander and Spike
>visit RJ's brother and Spike walks over to the shelf and subtly starts
>turning the angels around to face away from him. Amusing.
I'll have to check that. Wouldn't touching them burn him, though?
Rincewind
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
>(or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
>Director: Michael Gershman
I don't have much to say about this episode, mostly because I hate it almost
as much as you do.
I guess my sense of humor is just as broken as yours, except that I rate BBB
a high Decent bordering on Good.
But Him doesn't even come near to a Decent rating. You can't expect a season
2 plot to work in season 7.
The only two moments I actually liked are the scene at the Bronze (yes, I'm
a dirty old man) (and BTW Willow is obviously gay, not bi...) and Xander and
Spike's "plan":
XANDER: Now you're sure you understand the plan?
SPIKE: I think I got it, yeah.
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Bleah.
One-sentence summary: if I could find some Lethe's Bramble I would probably
erase the memory of it from my brain.
>AOQ rating: Bad
Yeah, Bad.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
TARA (at the end of Tabula Rasa): No biggie, Willow! Remember when I fucked
up with the whole Demon-blinding spell that almost got you all killed? So,
we all make mistakes. Can you just be kissing me?
lili...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
> to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
> favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
> team again. Good to know that Buffy did in fact tell the others about
> the soul, since I was imagining for some reason that she'd keep all
> her associations with Spike secret. Said soul has wisely been used, as
> with Darla, not to simplify or predictable-ize things; no one except
> possibly Peroxide Boy really knows exactly what the difference is
> between then and now. Even better than the opening is the follow-up
> Buffy/Dawn conversation... or so it seems. Buffy acts, for a fleeting
> moment, open with her sister in a way that she hasn't been in the
> past, frankly talking to her about the things she doesn't understand,
> spurred on by Dawn's occasional nudges. "I'm just trying to
> understand." Both the scene and the episode start to teeter when she
> brings up Xander leaving Anya at the altar - um, what the hell does
> at the same time as Dawn does. Komedy and stuff.
>
> defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
> of a loss to explain why this episode exists or why anyone thought it
> was a good idea, especially on the heels of something as great as
> at the teenage lust that was part of the early days of the show, from
> an outside perspective. There's never any doubt from moment one that
> Dawn is under the influence of something supernatural. The plot could
> have been something out of an S1/2 episode, except that the viewer
> isn't seeing things from Dawn's perspective, but rather from the
> more adult view, looking back on the incomprehensible melodrama of it
> all. Seeing Buffy try to get through to her sister and listening to
> the latter whine and pout for half the show isn't particularly
> thematic purpose, which could maybe be expanded by Buffy suddenly
> finding herself in that same situation?
>
> fun or uncomfortably poignant to see Dawn ignored, make a fool of
> herself, get involved in catfights, and so on, and then seeing everyone
> else brought down to her level too? Or maybe it's a commentary on
> guys like R.J., who have the evil power to, simply by existing, turn
> all women into conniving sex-crazed bitches... okay, I really don't
> see how that works on a metaphorical level, so forget it.
>
> "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered," which is directly referenced
> at one point, and indirectly referenced by making Xander the sane one?
> it's probably best not to pursue that line of thought either; the
> worst parts of "Him" aren't as actively worthy of lobbed bricks,
> but there's very little good to be found on the side. Most of what
> is worth watching comes, not surprisingly, from the unaffected guys and
> the pre-thralled, who provide the occasional good reaction to the
> insanity around them (love Xander and Willow with the consecutive
> double-take after seeing Dawn's face in the Bronze). The piecing
> together the story of the jacket and its unsuspecting bearers fails to
> particularly suck.
>
> episode:
> "Is sitting there drinking soda some kind of a Zen non-answer?"
> "I'm just saying... once you get back the soul, doesn't that mean you
> start, like, picking up your own wet towels off the floor?" "No,
> but maybe you start to feel really bad about leaving them there."
>
> don't like Xander's wistful "good times!" in response to an
> event that almost left him dead, involved violating his friends'
> minds in a way that put them in humiliating situations, left him
> thoroughly ashamed of himself, and so on. Maybe that's just my
> dislike for that episode coming through, though, so I imagine that
> those who liked it might be able to take the callback more as harmless
> fun.)
>
> thought this story would simply be a lot of fun, without a deeper
> meaning? The four-way montage and music during the last act certainly
> suggest that this is the primary purpose of "Him." As does the
> very idea of Willow being attracted to a guy, and responding by trying
> absurdity actually succeeds exactly once, during the moment in which
> Buffy and her really big gun go after Principal Wood. Something about
> the music, his non-reactions, the way we only see it through the
> window, Spike heroically staggering around with the weapon... this is
> inexplicably beloved bad comedy episodes before. I half expect all you
> insane troll comedy people to inform me that seeing our hero stammering
> and blushing like a kid half her age is the height of thigh-slapping
> hilarity, and it's my sense of humor that's broken.
>
>
> Buffy saving Dawn from having her head split by the train, apparently
> through the well-known Slayer skill of distorting space and time.
> Again, no matter what malady the writers choose to afflict her with,
> she's the Protector. The method, though... the train appears to be a
> few seconds away from making contact, and our gang isn't that far
> away. Buffy takes at least that much time just getting up on top of a
> train, then rides it for maybe a second, then hops back down, and is
> there in the (ta-da!) nick of time. That kind of badness is almost an
> art.
>
> feels like half a joke. How would this tie into the plot at all (maybe
> she wants to become fabulously wealthy and able to provide goods and
> services for her man? EVS), and why is she so reluctant to talk about
> something? Note that the idea of D'Hoffryn sending demons to kill
> Anya also makes roughly no sense at all, unless there's more that the
> series hasn't told us yet. I dunno. I'm tired of thinking about
> this - let's move on. No more love spells and lust-glamours, okay,
> show? Those things? Never a good idea.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Bleah.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
>
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
> 6) "Him" - Bad]
Thank you thank you thank you.
Finally someone who agrees on how bad, and basically boring this ep is.
I was starting to wonder, since so many people I know seem to love it.
In fact, the only scene in this ep that I really like, is the starting
scene with Spike moving in with Xander, something they could have done
a lot more with here and the very short scene at RJ's brother's place.
Where Spike turns around those Angel figurines. Other than that I tend
to find this ep basically annoying.
It does seem weird how Buffy's scenes with RJ are played for laugh.
She's an adult here, working for the school and she basically seduces
and humps a teenage boy. From what we get to see it's unclear wether RJ
even realizes he's causing this. Yet it's played for laughs...
Just imagine that scene, with a male teacher, and Dawn as the teenager
in question.... Try and switch the genders even if only for a second
and see how NOT funny that scene becomes.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
Nah, she should have just mentioned Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in
season one instead. Would have made it much easier to accept.
It's annoying how easily Xander's rape attempt on Buffy was ignored.
Or Faiths rape attempt on Xander for that matter.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality schreef:
Well it's not like Xander didn't get away with the same thing back in
S1 after he tried to rape Buffy in the Pack, as soon as they healed him
from that hyena spirit.
Lore
Daniel Damouth
news:1158480426.8...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>> 6) "Him" - Bad]
>
> Thank you thank you thank you.
>
> Finally someone who agrees on how bad, and basically boring this
> ep is. I was starting to wonder, since so many people I know seem
> to love it.
Do you count any episodes among your favorites that don't prominently
feature Spike?
-DD
lili...@gmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
Well at least it's better than saying doing evil things is ok, long as
you pretend it never happened afterwards. Like say Buffy's abuse of
Spike in s6, Xander's attempted rape of Buffy, Faith's attempted rape
of Xander, Buffy's attempted rape of Spike in Gone, Willow's rape of
Tara, Giles betraying Buffy in Helpless, Angel's murder of Jenny and
lots of other people, ....
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
Daniel Damouth schreef:
Well I liked Angel in s1, it's one of the only two eps in s1 that I
like, so that says something*g*
Lore
Scythe Matters
> What episode are you talking about?
I didn't even have to decrypt that. But here's the counter-argument: if
you don't think that AoQ is going to view that as a comedic episode, you
haven't been reading his reviews. I can't say more without spoiling or
rot13-ing, ohg boivbhfyl gur raq vf aba-pbzrqvp. V qba'g xabj nobhg jung
cerprqrf vg, gubhtu.
Don Sample
Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
Why? No one has ever said anything about vampires being burned by angel
figurines.
Rincewind
> Rincewind wrote:
>
>> What episode are you talking about?
>
> I didn't even have to decrypt that. But here's the counter-argument: if
> you don't think that AoQ is going to view that as a comedic episode, you
> haven't been reading his reviews.
I have read most of them and I think I have figured out how his sense of
humor works.
When the comedy is based on very original ideas he usually likes it, so I
bet he will rate this episode at least a high Good, maybe a low Excellent.
And he will love gur jr ner nf tbqf cneg...
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
JOYCE: Do I really need to spell this out for you, Angel? Vampire. Vampire
Slayer. PMS.
ANGEL: Right, I'm outta here. I'll send you a card from LA.
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
Well not a lot of people love this one. I don't have time to go through
the threads, so here's my input. Sorry if it overlaps with what others
have said.
This is high on fluff and low on the serious. It is what it is, but it
almost justifies the less than stellar stuff because of the scene with
the bazooka. *happy sigh*
Anyway, try to look back at the very start of the season:
Buffy, Xander and Dawn were OK, but rather lonely I think.
Anya was a demon, and isolated.
Spike was crazy in the school basement, and isolated.
Willow was in England, isolated and scared by her powers.
Through these first 6 episodes, we've been given hints about the Big
Bad, and slowly dealt with the problems of the isolated characters. In
this episode, Buffy brings them all together - she visits Anya and
tells her that they're friends. She gets Spike out of the basement.
At the end they're all together (except for Spike, but he was happily
helping Xander earlier on, just like old times) again. Buffy has pulled
her Scooby gang back in, everyone is more or less OK, and the past has
been forgiven/put aside.
So what happens now?
- One more note. A favourite bit of mine is when Spike and Xander are
in Lance's house, and Spike turns all the angels to face the wall. A
nicely underplayed moment that says a lot.
Wouter Valentijn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
<snip>
> this - let's move on. No more love spells and lust-glamours, okay,
> show? Those things? Never a good idea.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Bleah.
>
> AOQ rating: Bad
>
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
> 6) "Him" - Bad]
Hmm...
Most of the time I agree with your ratings. I've back tracked the reviews to
about 'The Freshmen' and most of the time I agree completely.
Not this time though.
Shows like this one, or BBB or 'The Zeppo' I would rate as 'good'. They are
not very serious drama of course, but they are great comedies. And slightly
on the insane side.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
There is trouble in my mind
There is dark. There is dark and there is light.
There is no order there is chaos and there is crime
There is no one home tonight in the empire in my mind
Empire In My Mind by Jakob Dylan
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> > (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> > Director: Michael Gershman
> >> One-sentence summary: Bleah.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Bad
>
> Well not a lot of people love this one. I don't have time to go through
> the threads, so here's my input. Sorry if it overlaps with what others
> have said.
wait till the episode -her-
that whacky willow
at least it will explain the how the second musical episode came about
> This is high on fluff and low on the serious. It is what it is, but it
> almost justifies the less than stellar stuff because of the scene with
> the bazooka. *happy sigh*
love makes you do the whacky
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
(or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: Michael Gershman
Just to show that one never can tell, "Him" starts with one of the
strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose. They even end up being a
team again. Good to know that Buffy did in fact tell the others about
the soul, since I was imagining for some reason that she'd keep all
her associations with Spike secret. Said soul has wisely been used, as
with Darla, not to simplify or predictable-ize things; no one except
possibly Peroxide Boy really knows exactly what the difference is
between then and now. Even better than the opening is the follow-up
Buffy/Dawn conversation... or so it seems. Buffy acts, for a fleeting
moment, open with her sister in a way that she hasn't been in the
past, frankly talking to her about the things she doesn't understand,
spurred on by Dawn's occasional nudges. "I'm just trying to
understand." Both the scene and the episode start to teeter when she
brings up Xander leaving Anya at the altar - um, what the hell does
that have to do with anything? - and then both collapse with a thunk
at the same time as Dawn does. Komedy and stuff.
It's time once again to ask the question that most recently also
defined my opinions about ATS's "Expecting:" why? I am at a bit
of a loss to explain why this episode exists or why anyone thought it
<snip>
Arb, Arb, Arb. it's good-natured spoof of ... shippers. Fans who become so
focused on the 'ship that logic and reason fade, as if they are bespelled.
The lack of onscreen evidence for a 'ship is moot to them. It's the 'ship
that counts, their 'ship.
Well, at least for the more ... intense ... shippers.
-- Ken from Chcago
jil...@hotmail.com
MAGIC!!!! MAGIC over-rides nature. I know so many men don't want
Willow to be gay, but need I remind you that there's no way Buffy is
going to blow up Principal Wood. There is no way Willow is going to
fall in love with a teenage pasty-faced blond boy (even if she was
utterly straight). And there is no way Dawn is going to go an commit
suicide by train for a boy. Okay, what Anya did probably is not a
no-way.
The coat, though not by any choice of the boy wearing it as he was
clueless, is another violation of any poor (and apparently YOUNG) woman
who happens to see the boy in it when the magic is triggered.
Elisi
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> > (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
> > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> > Director: Michael Gershman
> >
> >
> >
> > So...
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Bleah.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Bad
>
> >
> funny darn it! A particular highlight for me is when Xander and Spike
> visit RJ's brother and Spike walks over to the shelf and subtly starts
> turning the angels around to face away from him. Amusing.
You found it amusing? Well I can see that, but it always struck me as
something that went much deeper. The guilt of his soul, the judgment he
feels he deserves, angels as messengers from above...
There is also an angel decoration on the house outside that Spike
notices. I think it's a reminder of what he is, on several levels.
>
> Plus, it had the Charlie's Angels Montage! And the Bazooka made a
> comeback! Sometimes an episode full of silly fun can actually be fun
> without having any big meaning behind it.
magista
> Two trains are approaching Sunnydale from opposite directions,
> beginning 80 miles apart. One train travels northbound at 40 miles per
> hour and the other travels southbound at 40 miles per hour. A slayer
> runs back and forth between the front ends of the trains at a constant
> speed of 10 miles per hour. At the moment that the trains meet in
> Sunnydale, what total distance will the slayer have traveled?
>
> -AOQ
Technically? 10 miles, according to the numbers you've set out. But of
course it's an impossible problem, because the trains would leave her
behind long before she could run from one to the other.
/nerd
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
>
> > And here we have one of the show's worst moments ever - Dawn comparing
> > Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
> > Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
> > is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
> > fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
> > the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.
> >
> > And in this very same scene, we also have Buffy at least partially
> > excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."
> >
> > I remember thinking back when I first saw this that we were going to be
> > in for a hell of a lot of Spike canonization this season, often at the
> > expense of the other characters. I really hoped I was wrong about
> > that....
>
> Nah, she should have just mentioned Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in
> season one instead. Would have made it much easier to accept.
Since Xander never tried to rape Buffy, I'm not sure why Dawn would
have mentioned that....
Stephen Tempest
>You found it amusing? Well I can see that, but it always struck me as
>something that went much deeper. The guilt of his soul, the judgment he
>feels he deserves, angels as messengers from above...
>
>There is also an angel decoration on the house outside that Spike
>notices. I think it's a reminder of what he is, on several levels.
Huh. And I always assumed it was just his jealousy and Freudian
rivalry of Angel coming to the fore...
Stephen
Elisi
>From 'The Pack':
Xander growls and rolls Buffy over onto her back so he's on top now and
has her arms pinned down.
Buffy: Get off of me.
Xander: Is that what you really want? (Buffy struggles a bit) We both
know what you really want. You want danger, don't cha? You like your
men dangerous.
Buffy: You're in trouble, Xander. You are infected with some hyena
thing, it's like a demonic possession!
Xander: Dangerous and mean, right? Like Angel. Your Mystery Guy. Well,
guess who just got mean.
<snip>
Cut to Buffy and Xander. He is still on top of her.
Xander: Do you know how long... I've waited... until you'd stop
pretending that we aren't attracted...
Buffy throws him off of her and quickly gets up to face him. He gets
up, too, and begins to approach her as she backs away.
Xander: Until Willow... stops kidding herself... that I could settle
with anyone but you?
Buffy: Look, Xander, I don't wanna hurt you...
He grabs her by the shoulders and pushes her against the vending
machine.
Xander: Now do you wanna hurt me?
Buffy struggles, but the possessed Xander is too strong.
Xander: Come on, Slayer. I like it when you're scared.
She struggles a bit more.
Xander: The more I scare you, (sniffs her) the better you smell.
<snip>
Buffy: He tried his hand at felony sexual assault.
Willow: Oh, Buffy, the hyena in him didn't...
Buffy: No. (they arrange him on the floor of the cage) No, but it's
safe to say that in his animal state his idea of wooing doesn't involve
a Yanni CD and a bottle of Chianti. (locks the cage) There, that
oughtta hold him. Where's Giles?
-----------------
About your other points:
Dawn wasn't 'comparing' the rape to the non-wedding. She quite simply
reached out for an example of someone with a soul doing something bad.
Her comment is actually showing that the writers are *not* sanctifying
Spike - she's suggesting that a soul might not make Spike automatically
'good'.
Buffy's comment about Spike 'knowing how wrong it was' is to indicate
that he went off to get his soul afterwards. It's not about excusing
him, but about showing that he was capable of guilt. Like Willow feels
guilty about killing Warren. Does her guilt excuse her?
Elisi
Oh there's probably plenty of that too. :) And speaking of Angel,
there's a *fantastic* (very short) ficlet that you *must* read:
http://www.allaboutspike.com/fic.html?id=606
(BIG SPOILERS FOR ATS!!!)
Malsperanza
I think this is one of the clearest examples of how s7 rushes its
story. Dawn *tells* us how the show will view Spike's rape attempt from
now on, whereas the show allowed Willow to show us how she was slowly
earning back her position in the world and among her friends (though
even that is rushed, when Willow comes back from England without our
having seen any of the work she presumably had to do to get to that
point.)
Too often, Dawn is used as an exposition fairy or plot device; s7 is no
different (most of the time). It doesn't help with an already rather
shallowly conceived character.
~Mal
drifter
"I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it..."
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Malsperanza
Because the show chooses to give less meaning and weight to those
events. The scene in Buffy's bathroom is filmed as a rape scene.
Faith's assault on Xander is filmed as a mixture of romantic-sex-scene
and comedy-sex-scene. Not a lot of implied comedy in the Buffy/Spike
scene.
Some of the prejudices may be the viewers'; but a lot of the decisions
about what "counts" as an evil!rape is the decision of the show's
writers and directors.
~Mal
drifter
> What else is there to say? Dawn...anorexic but sexy, I guess.
Anorexic? Dawn? Anorexics don't have hips like that.
You might be thinking of Nicole Richie, except for the "sexy" part.
Nicole was on some talk show this week, looking like she was in her 50's,
and like she was ridden hard all the way there. My god, what a hag.
ANYway...
At this point in the show you can see MT blossoming into an impossibly
hot young woman. At least I can. Your mileage apparently varies.
Daniel Damouth
news:1158481837....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
>
> Daniel Damouth schreef:
>
>> lili...@gmail.com wrote in
>> news:1158480426.8...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> 6) "Him" - Bad]
>> >
>> > Thank you thank you thank you.
>> >
>> > Finally someone who agrees on how bad, and basically boring
>> > this ep is. I was starting to wonder, since so many people I
>> > know seem to love it.
>>
>> Do you count any episodes among your favorites that don't
>> prominently feature Spike?
> Well I liked Angel in s1, it's one of the only two eps in s1 that
> I like, so that says something*g*
How come your eye twitches every time I say Spike's name?
-DD
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
> > >
> > > > And here we have one of the show's worst moments ever - Dawn comparing
> > > > Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
> > > > Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
> > > > is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
> > > > fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
> > > > the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.
> > > >
> > > > And in this very same scene, we also have Buffy at least partially
> > > > excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."
> > > >
> > > > I remember thinking back when I first saw this that we were going to be
> > > > in for a hell of a lot of Spike canonization this season, often at the
> > > > expense of the other characters. I really hoped I was wrong about
> > > > that....
> > >
> > > Nah, she should have just mentioned Xander's attempted rape of Buffy in
> > > season one instead. Would have made it much easier to accept.
> >
> > Since Xander never tried to rape Buffy, I'm not sure why Dawn would
> > have mentioned that....
>
> >From 'The Pack':
That wasn't Xander, that was the hyena spirit controlling his body.
Come on, people.
> About your other points:
>
> Dawn wasn't 'comparing' the rape to the non-wedding. She quite simply
> reached out for an example of someone with a soul doing something bad.
If that was all she was going for, then Warren, who murdered one of her
closest friends and tried to murder her sister, would have been a much
better example.
The only reason I can see for the writers mentioning the non-wedding in
connection with the attempted rape was to try to make Spike look better
by saying that what Xander did was just as (or almost as) bad as what
Spike did. To tear down another character in order to make their
favorite look better by comparassion. Again, this is something I would
expect from some of the more extreme fans out there. To see the actual
writers of the show do it was extremely disappointing, to say the least.
Malsperanza
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
>
> <snip>
>
> Arb, Arb, Arb. it's good-natured spoof of ... shippers. Fans who become so
> focused on the 'ship that logic and reason fade, as if they are bespelled.
> The lack of onscreen evidence for a 'ship is moot to them. It's the 'ship
> that counts, their 'ship.
Now *that* makes sense.
For me, it isn't enough to say that this episode is about the power of
magic, or love makes people crazy, because by now nearly all the
episodes have those themes. But this lightweight spoof episode is
pretty much a last lull before the impending storm (or at least that's
what's implied); so it's a last chance to pretend that Sunnyvale's
problems with love and magic are only slightly worse than everyone
else's: Captain of the football team cheats in love and football with a
magic jacket. Nice little metaphor for the angst and clique-ism of high
school--in other words, a throwback to s1.
For me it doesn't work, and feels like filler. BtVS comedy works best
when it is closely intertwined with tragedy, horror, and big ideas. As
a character in "Pirates of the Caribbean" says, "That's what you call
ironic."
~Mal
burt...@hotmail.com
Regardless of whether or not the writers were going to claim that
Spike's rape attempt was no big deal from then on (which is plenty bad
enough in its own right), claiming that leaving a woman at the altar is
somehow equivalent to trying to rape her is absolutely contemptible. If
this is the kind of moral message the show is going to be sending this
season, that's just shameful. There's really no other way to put it.
lili...@gmail.com
Daniel Damouth schreef:
> lili...@gmail.com wrote in
> news:1158481837....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Daniel Damouth schreef:
> >
> >> lili...@gmail.com wrote in
> >> news:1158480426.8...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >> >> 6) "Him" - Bad]
> >> >
> >> > Thank you thank you thank you.
> >> >
> >> > Finally someone who agrees on how bad, and basically boring
> >> > this ep is. I was starting to wonder, since so many people I
> >> > know seem to love it.
> >>
> >> Do you count any episodes among your favorites that don't
> >> prominently feature Spike?
>
> > Well I liked Angel in s1, it's one of the only two eps in s1 that
> > I like, so that says something*g*
>
> How come your eye twitches every time I say Spike's name?
>
> -DD
Does it? No idea, his name just makes me smile. It's the whole, 'being
the majority of the reason why Buffy was worth watching'- thing
Without Spike, I might have still watched the series while it was on,
like I did in s1-3, but it woudln't have been something I stayed home
for and it definitely woudln't have interested me to read and write
fanfic about it.
It's like Smallville or Charmed, I don't mind watching it if I don't
have something better to do, but there's no real reason for me to wait
up for it and I sure don't buy any of the dvd's of either series.
Lore
Elisi
> That wasn't Xander, that was the hyena spirit controlling his body.
> Come on, people.
The hyena spirit brought out his hidden desires and twisted them. It's
how evil works. I'm not blamming him at all, I was just quoting. I have
no problems with Xander, and the attack in The Pack is played very
differently. Also Hyena!Xander is doing it for fun, which is miles away
from Spike's angry desperation.
Do you blame souled!Spike for the AR? He does, so I guess that makes
you happy?
> > About your other points:
> >
> > Dawn wasn't 'comparing' the rape to the non-wedding. She quite simply
> > reached out for an example of someone with a soul doing something bad.
>
> If that was all she was going for, then Warren, who murdered one of her
> closest friends and tried to murder her sister, would have been a much
> better example.
>
> The only reason I can see for the writers mentioning the non-wedding in
> connection with the attempted rape was to try to make Spike look better
> by saying that what Xander did was just as (or almost as) bad as what
> Spike did. To tear down another character in order to make their
> favorite look better by comparassion. Again, this is something I would
> expect from some of the more extreme fans out there. To see the actual
> writers of the show do it was extremely disappointing, to say the least.
I'm sorry, but I never saw it like that. I guess mentioning Xander was
less painful than talking about people who'd died, esp since Xander and
Anya apparently made up last episode.
And the conversation with Buffy grows out of this, I think:
BUFFY
No. A thousand gallons of no. OK, it's just-things are different
now-he has a soul.
XANDER
I'm sure that'll be a real comfort when he soulfully attacks you again.
DAWN
Yeah, what does that mean exactly-that Spike is all soul-having?
It's about feelings, and how they make people behave - which is where
the Xander thing comes in, I suddenly realise. It's Dawn trying to
understand why 'you always hurt the one you love'. Xander and Spike
both hurt the women they loved, and Dawn can't work out why - if you
love someone, surely you want to make them happy? If it all ends in
tears, then why bother at all?
Is it really better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at
all?
lili...@gmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
He tried to rape her in the Pack. Clear attempted rape if Buffy hadn't
hit him with a desk.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
Malsperanza schreef:
Which to me can be seen as a form of misandry coming from the writers.
When a woman tries to rape a man, it's seen as funny, even if the woman
is stronger than the man in question... when it's the other way around.
And if it's a woman doing it to another woman, than it's treated as
probably best ignored.
I would have loved to see the reaction if the scene in Gone had been
played without the funny music and showing Spike trying to stop Buffy,
who'd be clearly shown instead of using invisible Buffy. And then Spike
having to throw her out to get her to stop. Because basically, that
scene was the same as the one in seeing red.
To not even start on how they ignored the scene in s3 where Xander
tried to go talk to Faith and she tried to either rape and/or kill
Xander, which she woudl have gone through with, if Angel hadn't come in
to save Xander.
bs pbhefr, vafgrnq bs pbasebagvat Snvgu jvgu gung va f7, fur trgf gur
avpr ebznapr jvgu Jbbq naq jr trg gung cvyybj fprar sbeprq ba
hf...*tehzoyr* Uryy, Snvgu rira tbg gb wbxr nobhg ure encr nggrzcg ba
Knaqre naq jr jrer fhccbfrq gb frr gung nf abezny.
Lore
Malsperanza
I think there is some misandry in the show (which the writers
apparently mistake for feminism, every time they make cute remarks
about how fragile men are). But this idea--that rape can only be
perpetrated by men on women, because men actually would love to be
sexually assaulted by strong (foxy) women, is way more deeply embedded
in pop culture--I don't think BtVS is entirely to blame for buying into
that a little bit. Sexual relations in BtVS are almost always used to
further reveal the private issues of individual characters--and that's
particularly true of the Xander/Faith episode.
More troublesome to me is the way Xander is portrayed afterward as
being a bit boastful about his liaison with Faith. What he's apparently
really worried about is the sekrit geting out that he was a virgin.
Being a virgin is far more disturbing and shameful to a guy in
Buffyverse than either committing or being a victim of sexual assault.
But that particular obnoxious message is so common on TV shows and in
movies that it can't even be singled out. For the most part, Buffyverse
tries to be a bit more intelligent about these cliches than most shows.
> I would have loved to see the reaction if the scene in Gone had been
> played without the funny music and showing Spike trying to stop Buffy,
> who'd be clearly shown instead of using invisible Buffy. And then Spike
> having to throw her out to get her to stop.
Me too--and I was sort of expecting that scene, in fact. It would have
been interesting, and would certainly have fit with Spike's vaguely
increasing sense of responsibility in s6. But in "Gone" we see
Weak!Spike giving in to his desires at every chance he gets. Later, he
does criticize Buffy, noting that she got off on being invisible and
irresponsible, and that it wasn't good. (But I would have been sorry to
miss Buffy's line "I told you to stop seeing me.")
~Mal
drifter
> burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
>>>> comparing Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's
>>>> attempted rape of Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between
>>>> the two actions. This is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from
>>>> crazy Spike fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the
>>>> actual writers of the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment
>>>> ever for me on Buffy.
>>>
>>> Dawn's view of life or EVS, rather than being intended as a legit
>>> comparison. Feel free to do the same if it'll help.
>>
>> The problem is that, since Dawn was never shown to be very upset
>> about Xander leaving Anya at the altar, and since she *really*
>> doesn't like Spike at this point in the series, this really does
>> seem like a case of the writers talking through her, rather than
>> something that would be in-character for her to say. I actually
>> could say more here, but not without spoilers.
>>
>>>> excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it
>>>> was."
>>>
>>> think. Though I feel like she's basically excusing Soul!Spike for
>>> everything wrong the evil version did. Which, like it or not, is
>>> not exactly without precedent for this character.
>>
>> Actually, thinking about it, you don't even need a new version. Given
>> what the writers did with Willow after her murderous rampage last
>> year, they definitely are being consistent in their disgusting and
>> reprehensible moral message that says that doing the most horrible
>> and evil things is perfectly okay so long as you feel bad about it
>> afterward....
>
> you pretend it never happened afterwards. Like say Buffy's abuse of
> Spike in s6, Xander's attempted rape of Buffy,
Under the influence of the hyena spirit, IOW, not in his right mind...
> Faith's attempted rape of Xander,
Faith was going to murder Xander. I think he would have been fine with
her just raping him.
> Buffy's attempted rape of Spike in Gone, Willow's rape of
> Tara,
I don't see either of these the same way you do.
> Giles betraying Buffy in Helpless, Angel's murder of Jenny and
> lots of other people, ....
>
> Lore
Angel didn't murder Jenny; Angelus did. It's been established that
Angel and Angelus are two different people in the same body. Angelus
actually hates Angel, and considers himself the rightful "owner" of the
body they are in.
lili...@gmail.com
drifter schreef:
I see both Spike and Angel as still the same people, with or without
souls. Angel is Angelus is Liam, just as much as Spike is still Spike
is William.
Just like Giles is Ripper and Willow is darkWillow and Xander is
hyenaXander and Anya is Anyanka... There might be a demon or spirit
influence, but it's still the human persona that guides it.
If I don't take the easy way out for Spike, then why should that excuse
hold for Angel.
Lore
Elisi
Well... (from 'Darla', during the Boxer Rebellion):
Darla: "You still have a soul."
Angel: "I'm still a vampire."
Darla turns around: "You're not. - Look at you. I don't know what you
are anymore."
Angel: "You know what I am. You *made* me. Darla. I'm Angelus."
Darla: "Not anymore."
Angel slowly stepping closer: "I can be again. Just give me a chance
to prove it to you."
Darla: "You almost made me believe you."
Angel: "Believe it. - We can have the whirlwind back."
Darla looks up at him: "We can do this."
Angel with a slight smile: "Yes, we can."
Darla: "We can do anything."
Angel pulls her close: "Anything we like."
They kiss.
I've made an equation:
Angelus (demon + Liam's memories) + Soul (guilt, empathy etc.) = Angel.
Angelus is a part of Angel, one that he tries to keep hidden, but the
demon is _him_. Without it, he'd be dead.
I don't blame Angel for his actions un-souled, but it's not a simple
matter when he _is_ souled. Angelus doesn't go 'poof'.
The writers have actually likened vampirism to alcholism - which I find
very apt. Angel as a recovering alcholic makes a lot of sense. Any
recovering alcoholic is only one drink away from falling off the wagon
(one moment of true happiness...), and when drunk will cause incredible
damage and hurt to those around him (or her).
Paul Hyett
>> >>
>> >I knew you'd hate this one just because of your dislike of BBB but it's
>> >funny darn it! A particular highlight for me is when Xander and Spike
>> >visit RJ's brother and Spike walks over to the shelf and subtly starts
>> >turning the angels around to face away from him. Amusing.
>>
>
>Why? No one has ever said anything about vampires being burned by angel
>figurines.
But they are affected by some holy objects though - water & crosses for
example...
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
drifter
> More troublesome to me is the way Xander is portrayed afterward as
> being a bit boastful about his liaison with Faith. What he's
> apparently really worried about is the sekrit geting out that he was
> a virgin. Being a virgin is far more disturbing and shameful to a guy
> in Buffyverse than either committing or being a victim of sexual
> assault.
I think maybe you're confusing F/X's first (well, only) sex scene with
the one where Xander goes to "talk her in" after she killed the Deputy
Mayor, and she started choking him before Angel clubbed her
unconcious (after "threatening" to have sex with him...um, I'm talking
about *Faith* with Xander, not Angel with Xander). I don't think
Xander saw himself as a victim the first time.
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > That wasn't Xander, that was the hyena spirit controlling his body.
> > Come on, people.
>
> The hyena spirit brought out his hidden desires and twisted them. It's
> how evil works.
So Xander had a hidden desire to eat a raw piglet that was probably
still *alive* when he first bit into it?
And those other students, they had a hidden desire to be cannibals, and
all the hyena spirits did was bring it out?
That's beyond ridiculous.
> I'm not blamming him at all, I was just quoting. I have
> no problems with Xander, and the attack in The Pack is played very
> differently. Also Hyena!Xander is doing it for fun, which is miles away
> from Spike's angry desperation.
>
> Do you blame souled!Spike for the AR? He does, so I guess that makes
> you happy?
Well, by the rules of the show established early on, souled Spike is a
completely different being from vampire Spike.
However, Joss did a lot to muddy the waters on that subject (and I
can't talk about most of it without spoilers), so as to the question of
do I blame souled Spike for the attempted rape, the answer is "sort
of."
Saying that there's an equivalency between leaving a woman at the altar
and attempted rape because they both hurt the women the men in question
loved is like saying there's an equivalency between jaywalking and
murder because they're both against the law.
To quote Samuel L. Jackson, it ain't in the same ballpark, it ain't in
the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport.
burt...@hotmail.com
That wasn't Xander, it was the hyena spirit controlling his body. We've
been over this before.
Patrician
<burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158473914....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> > Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
>> > Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
>> > is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
>> > fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
>> > the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.
>>
>> view of life or EVS, rather than being intended as a legit comparison.
>> Feel free to do the same if it'll help.
>
> The problem is that, since Dawn was never shown to be very upset about
> Xander leaving Anya at the altar, and since she *really* doesn't like
> Spike at this point in the series, this really does seem like a case of
> the writers talking through her, rather than something that would be
> in-character for her to say. I actually could say more here, but not
> without spoilers.
>
>> > excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."
>>
>> think. Though I feel like she's basically excusing Soul!Spike for
>> everything wrong the evil version did. Which, like it or not, is not
>> exactly without precedent for this character.
>
> Actually, thinking about it, you don't even need a new version. Given
> what the writers did with Willow after her murderous rampage last year,
> they definitely are being consistent in their disgusting and
> reprehensible moral message that says that doing the most horrible and
> evil things is perfectly okay so long as you feel bad about it
> afterward....
>
I'm sorry but I really fail to see why a TV show *has* to put out *any*
moral message at all? It's just a TV show, just entertainment. I feel that
sometimes people read way too much into a programme and/or look too deeply
for meaning where there is none intended.
BtVS is a case in point. It's pure fantasy, it has no connection to real
life at all and no one in it ever reacts as people would in *our* reality.
So why read moral messages into it? It's not a documentary after all.
Trev
George W Harris
:burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
:
:> That wasn't Xander, that was the hyena spirit controlling his body.
:> Come on, people.
:
:The hyena spirit brought out his hidden desires and twisted them.
It was called animal *possession*. The spirit
*possessed* Xander, it didn't influence him. It knew
what he knew, but its desires were its own (or do you
think Xander had a hidden desire to eat raw pork, and
the other four had a hidden desire for cannibalism?).
You might as well blame Buffy for illegally using
her mother's credit cards in WAY?
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Patrician
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158519744.5...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Agreed. The whole Angel/Angelus are two seperate beings is nothing but fan
wanking by the people that like Angel but not when he is Angelus.
Trev
George W Harris
:
:burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
:
:> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
:>
:> Since Xander never tried to rape Buffy, I'm not sure why Dawn would
:> have mentioned that....
:
:He tried to rape her in the Pack. Clear attempted rape if Buffy hadn't
:hit him with a desk.
And Buffy used her mother's credit cards without
asking in WAY. Naq Natry ovg Yvynu va Pnecr Abpgrz.
:
:Lore
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
Wouter Valentijn
Holy water is blessed specifically by a priest.
Crosses are more of a direct symbol / magic / thingy.
Maybe the angels were too commercial? ;-)
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
There is trouble in my mind
There is dark. There is dark and there is light.
There is no order there is chaos and there is crime
There is no one home tonight in the empire in my mind
Empire In My Mind by Jakob Dylan
Wouter Valentijn
Yes. That was his first time (he was 'up with people') and it was
concentual.
That second time he forgot the 'save word', as Angel sarcasticly put it when
Faith semi seriously came up with an excuse why she was choking her latest
'boy toy' out of misplaced anger and frustration.
Wes <>
wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:16:44 -0400, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158452200.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
>>> (or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
>>
>>
>>> Just to show that one never can tell, "Him" starts with one of the
>>> strongest written teasers in awhile. Buffy's followed up on the need
>>> to get Spike out of that basement - no dropped plot threads from my
>>> favorite episodes, huh? - and of course he and Xander get to spend
>>> more quality time together, with neither thrilled with the arrangement.
>>
>> BUFFY: It's not coddling. Now go to your closet.
>>
>> Eh. The scene's OK - mainly just for the moving of Spike to Xander's place.
>> But I didn't get much else out of it other than the line above that I like.
>
>Uh, why does Buffy put Spike with Xander? I mean, if
>she's so concerned about Spike being in the school's
>basement, why doesn't she offer her own? Or why doesn't
>Xander suggest this?
>
>
>Jeff
Xander lied. This is his punishment.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Paul Hyett" <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote in message
news:+nmVf0F7...@blueyonder.co.uk...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer on Sat, 16 Sep 2006, MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote
> :
> >>
> >I knew you'd hate this one just because of your dislike of BBB but it's
> >funny darn it! A particular highlight for me is when Xander and Spike
> >visit RJ's brother and Spike walks over to the shelf and subtly starts
> >turning the angels around to face away from him. Amusing.
>
> I'll have to check that. Wouldn't touching them burn him, though?
>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Wes <>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
>(or "ZOMG TRANSEXUAL SPELL LOL!!!")
>Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>Director: Michael Gershman
>
>
>One-sentence summary: Bleah.
>
>AOQ rating: Bad
>
Humor is your friend. Embrace it.
I like it, no guilt involved.
magista
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> That wasn't Xander, that was the hyena spirit controlling his body.
> Come on, people.
>
That wasn't souled!Spike, that was the demon controlling his unsouled
body.
Pretty much the same applies, seems to me. If Angel gets a bye for
killing Jenny (and everything else he's ever done), because "Angelus"
was controlling him and now he really regrets it, and Xander gets a bye
for his attempted rape of Buffy because the "hyena spirit" was
controlling him and he was so mortified that he hoped Buffy would never
mention it, and Faith gets a bye for her attempted rape and near murder
of Xander because of her "troubled past", then why doesn't Spike get
the same consideration, when he manages to express regret _even before
he has a soul_?
Ben Morrow
Quoth burt...@hotmail.com:
>
> Actually, thinking about it, you don't even need a new version. Given
> what the writers did with Willow after her murderous rampage last year,
> they definitely are being consistent in their disgusting and
> reprehensible moral message that says that doing the most horrible and
> evil things is perfectly okay so long as you feel bad about it
> afterward....
Repentance is the only necessity for forgiveness.
Forgiveness is the only necessity for redemption.
'Buffy' has always had a very Christian outlook.
Ben
--
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe: attack ships on fire off
the shoulder of Orion; I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the
Tannhauser Gate. All these moments will be lost, in time, like tears in rain.
Time to die. benm...@tiscali.co.uk
Arbitrar Of Quality
Terry wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1158463217.3...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Terry wrote:
> >
> >> *snicker* Have you been watching Rockstar: Supernova?
> >
> > Was wondering if anyone would pick up on that. It's a great phrase to
> > use semi-ironically at random, so expect many more reviews to contain
> > it.
>
> I just love that all his fans were using EVS as a rallying cry. "Hey,
> Toby! You're so awesome and dreamy! WHATEVER!!!! You're like the most
> whatever guy EVER!"
This should be too off topic to continue, but I can't resist. Other
than "EVS," the other thing I've picked up from this season is
referring to any strong thunderstorm (or hailstorm, or EVS) as "storm
large." Try it, it's fun.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
magista wrote:
> > Two trains are approaching Sunnydale from opposite directions,
> > beginning 80 miles apart. One train travels northbound at 40 miles per
> > hour and the other travels southbound at 40 miles per hour. A slayer
> > runs back and forth between the front ends of the trains at a constant
> > speed of 10 miles per hour. At the moment that the trains meet in
> > Sunnydale, what total distance will the slayer have traveled?
> Technically? 10 miles, according to the numbers you've set out. But of
> course it's an impossible problem, because the trains would leave her
> behind long before she could run from one to the other.
Correct on both counts.
-AOQ
~stupid typo. Stupid keyboard~
Arbitrar Of Quality
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> The very worst part, for me, was Dawn's cheerleading routine. It was
> totally predictable and unfunny, or rather, only funny if you're amused
> when characters you love humiliate themselves. I'm just the opposite -- I
> find that even harder to watch than characters I love finding their
> mother's dead bodies or getting shot or nearly getting raped. That
> probably says more about my appearing-in-front-of-crowd phobia than it
> does about Him.
Not necessarily. You don't have to have that phobia to not ever enjoy
the humiliation scenes on any level. I didn't even enjoy the coda of
"The Puppet Show" (unless I pretend it's out-of-character/non-canon),
which is pretty mild in comparison to some of the stuff the show does.
> I wouldn't go that far. There are enough good laughs to partly make up
> for the rest of it. It doesn't reach the level of classic dumb-but-funny
> episodes like Pangs, though.
I want to say that "Pangs" isn't dumb at all, except that it really
kinda is. But it's dumb in a clever way. Or something.
-AOQ
Malsperanza
This debate seems to hang mainly on Dawn's remark, but Dawn doesn't
speak for the whole show or its moral position. In fact, Dawn is even
more muddled and less thoughtful about moral issues than most of the
other characters--for one thing, she's 15 or so, and tends to see the
world in black-and-white--not surprising for her age and with her
unusual background. Plus, she is exceptionally self-involved, as we
have seen, and given to making snap judgments, based on how they affect
her. Also, she's not the sharpest tack in the box. And at the moment
when she speaks, she is mad at Xander, just as she was mad at Willow
and Tara for breaking up and spoiling *her* home life.
As I said in another part of this thread, I'm not sure the show has, or
tries to have, a consistent moral position or message--especially about
sexual violence. How can it, when the individual characters don't?
Various characters take various views of sexual aggression, and tend to
change their views to fit their own affections, allegiances, and
prejudices. If Spike had been the one to massacre a house full of frat
boys, Xander would have been out for his blood, not arguing for
leniency.
The show begins with the classic concept of vampirism as a metaphor for
sexual danger, just as Stoker and Anne Rice do. But over the course of
7 years, the show explores a variety of views about violence (sexual
and other), and about the idea of violence as entertainment. Somewhere
in s2, Buffy actually states this pretty clearly, when she says (I
think to Giles): "How do you think I feel, having the feelings I do for
Angel, and going out every night to stake vampires?" (WWTE) Which begs
the question raised earlier of whether Buffy is aware of any moral
ambiguity or problem with the idea of staking freshly risen vampires,
without finding out if they are capable of recovering their souls, as
Angel and Spike do.
By s7, Buffy has developed a pretty brutal answer to all these moral
questions: "I am the law," she says. That's what the presence of demons
and vampires does to the world: they make human law obsolete or
irrelevant, and chaos ensues, unless the Slayer--the One
Chosen--asserts a kind of totalitarian authority.
So if Buffy wants to say that Spike is forgiven for trying to rape her,
then that's the law. If Buffy wants to say that Anya is not forgiven
for murdering 12 frat boys, then that's the law. If Buffy wants to
adjudicate the rights and wrongs of Xander and Anya splitting up, then
she can do so. (She chooses not to play judge on that one, but she
could.)
We'll see what the show does with this idea, which has been percolating
since the beginning, but is only now stated baldly.
~Mal
jil...@hotmail.com
if it was only a passing thought. Perhaps he glanced at Dawn and
thought, "Gee, wouldn't it be fun to be her first?" Certainly he must
have found Buffy attractive when she was glaring at him (boys are like
that sometimes). And Anya's pretty, and so is Willow. So, like this
"Awe man, Buffy wanted me. It would be cool if these girls really want
me, too."
jil...@hotmail.com
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> drifter schreef:
> > Angel didn't murder Jenny; Angelus did. It's been established that
> > Angel and Angelus are two different people in the same body. Angelus
> > actually hates Angel, and considers himself the rightful "owner" of the
> > body they are in.
> I see both Spike and Angel as still the same people, with or without
> souls. Angel is Angelus is Liam, just as much as Spike is still Spike
> is William.
For me, I think the difference is that Angelus is a split personality.
He had to, in order to handle the soul. Hence Angelus is so vastly
different from when he has the soul. Angelus is not Liam, he's what
Liam became because he's a vampire without a soul. Angel is not Liam,
he's what Angelus made so that he wouldn't be changed by the soul.
Spike is not still William. He's the remnants of William. The soul
didn't turn him into the person he was before he was sired. Before he
was a vampire, he'd never murdered anyone (as far as we know), nor even
been nasty. Granted, like most bullied people he carried a fantasy
that he was better than the people who were asses to him. Now, unlike
Angel he's had a chip for a few years that reined him in, and is a tiny
bit prepared for having a soul because he's already gone through the "I
can't hurt people" part. But he certainly wasn't prepared for the
extremes of shock his soul goes into whenever the memories of evils
he's done cross his mind.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Malsperanza schreef:
>
> > lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > It's annoying how easily Xander's rape attempt on Buffy was ignored.
I agree with that, although not from the perspective of needing to
punish Xander for things he had no control over. The fact that both he
and Buffy remember having lived through it should have had a
discernable effect on their interactions after that, particularly for
him. The way "The Pack" ends with a concerted attempt to forget about
it is an appropriate ending for that episode, but it shouldn't have
been used as a total reset button.
> > Because the show chooses to give less meaning and weight to those
> > events. The scene in Buffy's bathroom is filmed as a rape scene.
> > Faith's assault on Xander is filmed as a mixture of romantic-sex-scene
> > and comedy-sex-scene.
As has been pointed out below, this is probably conflating two separate
scenes (from "The Zeppo" and "Consequences"). The former is entirely
consensual, and the latter is not played for comedy.
> I would have loved to see the reaction if the scene in Gone had been
> played without the funny music and showing Spike trying to stop Buffy,
> who'd be clearly shown instead of using invisible Buffy. And then Spike
> having to throw her out to get her to stop. Because basically, that
> scene was the same as the one in seeing red.
I'm baffled by the suggestion that the scene in "Gone" should be viewed
as rape, or anything remotely resembling "Seeing Red." Do we seriously
not think that if Spike hadn't momentarily chosen pleasure over
personal space, he couldn't have made Buffy stop with the head, or that
she wouldn't have stopped had he clearly told her to go away? Which he
presumaby did, eventually; there's no indication that Spike "throwing
her out" afterwards involved any physical force.
These are not the same scene:
----
INVISIBLE BUFFY: Why do you always have to ... (pouty) I thought we
were having fun.
Invisible Buffy comes up to Spike and he grabs her by the shoulders,
holds her away from him.
SPIKE: Yeah, now! But sooner or later your chums are gonna work out a
way to bring you back to living color. (lets her go) You need to go.
Get dressed if you can find your clothes, and push off. 'Cause if I
can't have all of you, I'd rather-
Spike breaks off, looks down toward his waist.
SPIKE: Okay, that's cheating.
[cut to another scene, then later...]
Cut to close shot of an empty soda can lying on the street. It suddenly
goes skittering down the street as if kicked.
INVISIBLE BUFFY: I don't believe this.
Wider shot of the street (residential area) with the can moving down
it. Sound of Buffy's footsteps. The camera follows her (and the can)
along the street.
INVISIBLE BUFFY: He threw *me* out? He threw *me*. Did I, like, fall
into some ... backward dimension here? Is this Bizarro World?
- "Gone"
-----
SPIKE: (whispers) Let yourself feel it.
He moves forward, puts his hands on her waist, pulls her toward him.
She resists.
BUFFY: No....
SPIKE: You love me.
BUFFY: Ow, no, stop it.
They struggle, Spike trying to kiss and grope Buffy, Buffy trying to
push him away. Sound of fabric ripping. Spike's hand is inside Buffy's
robe.
BUFFY: Spike, no - ow - what are you do-
She loses her balance and falls backward toward the tub. Her hand grabs
the shower curtain for balance, but it rips off the shower rod and
Buffy falls down, hitting her back against the side of the tub.
BUFFY: (yelling) Ow!
She falls to the floor beside the tub, groaning in pain. Spike gets on
top of her, holding her down. He grabs her face and tries to kiss her
as she continues trying to fight him off.
SPIKE: Let it go. Let yourself love me.
He continues saying similar things as Buffy continues saying "no" and
"stop" and "ow." Spike pulls at her clothing.
Buffy gets onto her stomach and tries to pull herself toward the door,
but Spike is on top of her, holding her down, pulling her arms away
from the door as she continues yelling and protesting.
Close on Spike wearing a determined and wild expression.
[blackout, commerical break]
Open on the same scene, overhead shot of Spike straddling Buffy on the
bathroom floor. Buffy continues struggling.
BUFFY: (yelling) No, stop it!
SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...
Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.
Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again.
Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over,
pins her hands to the floor.
BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...
SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...
BUFFY: Please don't do this...
SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.
He rips the front of her robe open. Buffy screams and struggles against
him as he tries to get her robe off.
BUFFY: Stop!!!
She gives him one last shove with her Slayer-strength and Spike goes
flying backward, crashing into the sink and the wall. Buffy gets to her
feet, holding her robe closed with one hand. It's torn so that one of
her shoulders is exposed.
- "Seeing Red"
I'd say there're some differences.
-AOQ