AOQ Review 4-11: "Doomed"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
(or "You can't go to school again")
Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
Director: James A. Contner
I think this is our first three-writer script. Did they bounce it
around trying to get some life out of it or something?
Cool opening this week as we pick up with the same scene we left off
with at the end of "Hush." I don't think the show has done that
before, actually. Especially nice given that the two aired like a
month apart. The silence doesn't seem to have helped our couple,
since Buffy seems especially angry this time around. She really had
her heart set on the normal-guy thing...
There's a lot of Buffy/Riley stuff throughout the episode, so let's
talk about it up front. After a brief attempt to address the problems
that their respective vocations might cause, the episode mostly boils
their problems down to Buffy deciding that because past relationships
that were vaguely similar ended up Doomed, so will this one. And she
needs a little time and a little bit of cold logic to get past that.
Which makes sense in the context of her arc this season, but it
doesn't make watching it any more entertaining. The "you want to
stay in that dark place... it's safer there" confrontation is one
of those scenes where I could analytically say "yes, good point, this
'should' be brought up," but I can't really say that the scene
"worked." Something about the actual delivery seems more like a
disconnected series of outbursts and monologues than an actual
conversation. Plus it was only slightly less than blindingly obvious
at this point that they'd kiss at the end of the episode, and I
wouldn't care.
The fact that Riley is boring doesn't help either. And just because
the show loves me so much, Blucas graduates to
picture-in-the-opening-titles status. Ugh. Well, we survived three
seasons of Cordelia, we can survive this. And I don't in fact
particularly dislike Riley, given that doing so would require him to be
capable of eliciting an emotional reaction at all. Actually, the
character did work for me for one fleeting moment this time: his
self-mocking diatribe about his letting the Initiative down with his
inability to ad-lib. I think that's maybe the third Riley scene
I've cared about to any extent (the first two were in "Fear
Itself" and "Pangs," for the record - maybe we should keep
count).
The scenes juxtaposing Slaypack brainstorming and Initiative
brainstorming gave me way more phony-sounding declarative
"military" talk than I care to see. The most
probably-unintentionally funny moment of the episode is Riley's
reference to getting a look at the enemy as "my visual analysis."
I mean, really. Random note here: The Initiative uses the metric
system.
This is all wrapped up in the nominal plot, which is one of the weakest
the show has come up with in quite some time. A bunch of demons want
to open the Hellmouth, and our heroes fight them. The excitement is
whatever the exact opposite of palpable is. The writers do at least
realize that just having "the end of the world" without any other
reason to care isn't going to make much of an impression on our
heroes, given the kind of stuff they deal with. So it seems even
weirder that "Doomed" acknowledges that but doesn't spice things
up, unless you count the rather pointless stroll through the old sets.
Xander and Willow have nothing interesting to say about being back in
school, for instance. (This, by the way, is more of what I mean when I
sometimes say that just because you can cram a bunch of different
iterations of the same theme into an episode doesn't mean that you
should. The writers tend to think it's really interesting to, say,
have characters feel similarly to the way they did in high school, and
then shortly afterwards physically put them back in high school. I
just don't get engaged by that kind of thing, if the show doesn't
do anything else with it.)
How far in advance did everyone realize that the three demons were the
sacrifice? I hope no one was surprised when the heroes finally figured
it out. I do like the climax of this story okay, with Buffy rappelling
into the crack, but the rest is plenty of nothing.
I have no comment about Percy's reappearance, since it doesn't
merit much thought. It's weird seeing Willow regress to social
awkwardness after the beginning of the year. The dialogue rather
explicitly suggests that Oz played a big role in making her feel cool,
which played a role in making her cool. Huh.
And a comment from Mrs. Quality about Willow: "Pink and red do *not*
go together."
The one real redeeming thing about this episode is Spike, who salvages
what he can of the whole losers' plot. I particularly like the
rapport he and his host have been building as he leeches off Xander's
minimum wage. Both characters have fairly entertaining speeches in
which they verbally tear each other apart. And I'd say the Big
Ex-Bad gets the better of things, since he reads people so well. We
know that the other Scoobies aren't tenth-grade losers that Buffy's
looking for an excuse to ditch, but what matters is that, when
they're in that particular mind-state, it could very well feel true.
Spike can keep up a demoralizing stream of relentless mockery of
anyone, and he even has poise with the self-loathing. I think that as
far as he's concerned, he may be life's bitch, but at least he's
man enough to admit it. Along the way, there are fun moments like the
initial reveal of him wearing that outfit, and the darkly comic suicide
attempt. Not so wild about the closing scene for some reason, though.
And no comment yet about Spike's sudden ability to fight evil without
migraines; I'm sure there's more story to come there.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Spike trying to attack Xander with the wrench
- "Oh, as usual, dear"
- "Ah'm just an ol' pal of Xander's, here..."
So...
One-sentence summary: Show some life, people!
AOQ rating: Weak
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak]
Exp315
little better this time than when I first saw it years ago. I think
it's the "I've seen so much drivel passing for TV entertainment since
then that any Buffy at all looks good by comparison" syndrome.
Why don't you slow down a little AOQ, give us a chance to get out ahead
of you again! :-)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Why don't you slow down a little AOQ, give us a chance to get out ahead
> of you again! :-)
Does anyone else want to request slower posting? I'm watching them
really fast...
-AOQ
peachy ashie passion
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
> (or "You can't go to school again")
> Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> I think this is our first three-writer script. Did they bounce it
> around trying to get some life out of it or something?
>
> Cool opening this week as we pick up with the same scene we left off
> with at the end of "Hush." I don't think the show has done that
> before, actually. Especially nice given that the two aired like a
> month apart. The silence doesn't seem to have helped our couple,
> since Buffy seems especially angry this time around. She really had
> her heart set on the normal-guy thing...
I just have to say, I thought the ep was about as weak as you did,
with one huge exception.
Buffy and Riley's fight before the quake - I love.
I watch it every chance I get, and then turn off the rest of the episode.
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> And no comment yet about Spike's sudden ability to fight evil without
> migraines; I'm sure there's more story to come there.
Actually, AOQ, I think I've discovered a reason for YOU to slow down.
If you think about it, this is the first time we've seen since he got
out of the Initiative him coming up against demons. Note: a
distinction between demons and evil. Of course, we haven't seen him
fighting any just plain evil human beings yet. Assuming that the men
he fought when escaping from the dorm room are all not-evil, hahah.
Getting whopped on the head by Harmony while still suffering from
headaches because of fighting his way out of the Initiative isn't
evidence that she triggered the chip.
"I can fight demons!" stated with happy enthusiasm by Spike.
Arbitrar Of Quality
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > And no comment yet about Spike's sudden ability to fight evil without
> > migraines; I'm sure there's more story to come there.
>
> Actually, AOQ, I think I've discovered a reason for YOU to slow down.
> If you think about it, this is the first time we've seen since he got
> out of the Initiative him coming up against demons.
Ah. Not that much more story, apparently.
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:1146629698.9...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> sacrifice? I hope no one was surprised when the heroes finally figured
> it out. I do like the climax of this story okay, with Buffy rappelling
> into the crack, but the rest is plenty of nothing.
She gave that demon a pretty big head start, but still managed to catch it
up in the fall. If Galileo had thrown a demon and a slayer off the Leaning
Tower of Pisa, which would have reached the ground first? (well ok, Galileo
probably, but it does appear that slayers are substantially denser than
demons, and so slowed down less by air resistance in free fall)
> I have no comment about Percy's reappearance, since it doesn't
> merit much thought. It's weird seeing Willow regress to social
> awkwardness after the beginning of the year. The dialogue rather
> explicitly suggests that Oz played a big role in making her feel cool,
> which played a role in making her cool. Huh.
>
> And a comment from Mrs. Quality about Willow: "Pink and red do *not*
> go together."
>
> The one real redeeming thing about this episode is Spike, who salvages
> what he can of the whole losers' plot. I particularly like the
> rapport he and his host have been building as he leeches off Xander's
> minimum wage. Both characters have fairly entertaining speeches in
> which they verbally tear each other apart. And I'd say the Big
> Ex-Bad gets the better of things, since he reads people so well. We
> know that the other Scoobies aren't tenth-grade losers that Buffy's
> looking for an excuse to ditch, but what matters is that, when
> they're in that particular mind-state, it could very well feel true.
> Spike can keep up a demoralizing stream of relentless mockery of
> anyone, and he even has poise with the self-loathing. I think that as
> far as he's concerned, he may be life's bitch, but at least he's
> man enough to admit it. Along the way, there are fun moments like the
> initial reveal of him wearing that outfit, and the darkly comic suicide
> attempt. Not so wild about the closing scene for some reason, though.
>
> And no comment yet about Spike's sudden ability to fight evil without
> migraines; I'm sure there's more story to come there.
Well, apart from Spike's own comment.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
There is very little to like in this episode. But sometimes a little is
enough. There is at least the matter of Willow suffering the trauma of being
called a nerd (along with that other little thing with the dead body). And
there is Spike. The episode picks itself up off the floor pretty much
whenever Spike appears - depressed Spike, Spike with the wrench, malicious
Spike realising he can at least hurt Willow and Xander with words, and
finally Spike on a mission at the end, when he realises he can kill demons.
C'mon!
It's not much, but I give it a Decent. To me its the 87th best in BtVS, 14th
best in Season 4.
--
Apteryx
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
> (or "You can't go to school again")
> Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> I think this is our first three-writer script. Did they bounce it
> around trying to get some life out of it or something?
Heh. I think it was actually a time issue. Several writers commented
on the decreasing amount of time they had to write scripts as the
series went along. These multi-writer scripts will become more common
in following seasons.
> Random note here: The Initiative uses the metric
> system.
So does the entire U.S. military. I lost the ability to estimate
distance in feet.
> This is all wrapped up in the nominal plot, which is one of the weakest
> the show has come up with in quite some time.
No argument here. For a long time I couldn't even remember what the
nominal plot of the episode was without looking it up. And then I
wouldn't care.
> How far in advance did everyone realize that the three demons were the
> sacrifice? I hope no one was surprised when the heroes finally figured
> it out. I do like the climax of this story okay, with Buffy rappelling
> into the crack, but the rest is plenty of nothing.
A lot of the discussion of this episode centered around whether it was
physically possible for Buffy to have caught the demon. The easiest
fanwank, which might have been endorsed by Joss, is that the demon
landed on a ledge. That didn't stop people from discussing the
aerodynamics of an unladen Slayer.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
Apteryx wrote:
>
> She gave that demon a pretty big head start, but still managed to catch it
> up in the fall. If Galileo had thrown a demon and a slayer off the Leaning
> Tower of Pisa, which would have reached the ground first? (well ok, Galileo
> probably, but it does appear that slayers are substantially denser than
> demons, and so slowed down less by air resistance in free fall)
I just want to point out that I sent my post in which I quipped about
people discussing Slayer aerodynamics BEFORE I read this post. Heh.
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> aerodynamics of an unladen Slayer.
caribbean bostonian or californian slayer?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
news:1146634850....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> A lot of the discussion of this episode centered around whether it was
> physically possible for Buffy to have caught the demon. The easiest
> fanwank, which might have been endorsed by Joss, is that the demon
> landed on a ledge. That didn't stop people from discussing the
> aerodynamics of an unladen Slayer.
But my suggestion works better if demons are made of wood :)
--
Apteryx
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> There's a lot of Buffy/Riley stuff throughout the episode, so let's
> talk about it up front. After a brief attempt to address the problems
> that their respective vocations might cause, the episode mostly boils
> their problems down to Buffy deciding that because past relationships
> that were vaguely similar ended up Doomed, so will this one. And she
> needs a little time and a little bit of cold logic to get past that.
> Which makes sense in the context of her arc this season, but it
> doesn't make watching it any more entertaining. The "you want to
> stay in that dark place... it's safer there" confrontation is one
> of those scenes where I could analytically say "yes, good point, this
> 'should' be brought up," but I can't really say that the scene
> "worked." Something about the actual delivery seems more like a
> disconnected series of outbursts and monologues than an actual
> conversation. Plus it was only slightly less than blindingly obvious
> at this point that they'd kiss at the end of the episode, and I
> wouldn't care.
They have very little chemistry.
[snip]
> This is all wrapped up in the nominal plot, which is one of the weakest
> the show has come up with in quite some time. A bunch of demons want
> to open the Hellmouth, and our heroes fight them. The excitement is
> whatever the exact opposite of palpable is. The writers do at least
> realize that just having "the end of the world" without any other
> reason to care isn't going to make much of an impression on our
> heroes, given the kind of stuff they deal with. So it seems even
> weirder that "Doomed" acknowledges that but doesn't spice things
> up, unless you count the rather pointless stroll through the old sets.
I've always found it weird that they would play this relatively straight
after doing The Zeppo in S3.
[snip]
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Show some life, people!
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Can't disagree with you here, this doesn't even have many good lines.
--
You can't stop the signal
vague disclaimer
Hey, some of us already deep into S5 (again).
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
> (or "You can't go to school again")
> Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> I think this is our first three-writer script. Did they bounce it
> around trying to get some life out of it or something?
Personally, I think this shows how much time Whedon had spent on Hush,
and now he didn't contribute much. There, what you have left without
him: stupidity.
> The fact that Riley is boring doesn't help either.
I don't feel that boring covers it. No, boring falls short.
;-)
> Well, we survived three seasons of Cordelia, we can survive this.
You know what? Comparing Riley and Cordy? That's the most appalling
thing you have ever said. If there are any God, you will burn in hell
for that one.
And look, no smiley.
> I do like the climax of this story okay, with Buffy rappelling
> into the crack, but the rest is plenty of nothing.
I suspect that thing is Fury. Too much rope with hook.
And she would never get them in time. Never. That's the kind of thing I
cannot handle, because I am a machine, demanding the physics to work.
> The one real redeeming thing about this episode is Spike, who salvages
> what he can of the whole losers' plot. I particularly like the
> rapport he and his host have been building as he leeches off Xander's
> minimum wage. Both characters have fairly entertaining speeches in
> which they verbally tear each other apart. And I'd say the Big
> Ex-Bad gets the better of things, since he reads people so well.
They wanted to replace Cordy with Anya, but I think Spike gets all the
good points Cordy at this stage _would_ have gotten.
> AOQ rating: Weak
You are _far_ to nice. Really. This one is bad. Utterly bad.
--
Espen
eli...@gmail.com
>good points Cordy at this stage _would_ have gotten.
James Marsters said that he was told he'd be the 'Cordy replacement' so
to speak - the one on the sidelines telling the heroes they were all
stupid etc. Of course Anya also has the thing of speaking before
thinking that Cordy had.
I can't hink of anything to say about this episode - I mean I don't
hate it or anything, it's just very... bland. Although it has my
least-favourite line of all of BtVS: "I can feel my skin humming."
Young men should _never_ be poetic!
jil...@hotmail.com
Hey, there COULD be much more story! But if I were to tell you, then
that would be spoiling so I'm not going to teeeeeeell you. There may
or may not be any more story about Spike's chip and what it keeps him
from attacking.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
in three episodes spike announces he is the frito bandito
and offers chips and bean dip to everyone
peachy ashie passion
> On 03.05.2006 06:14, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
>> (or "You can't go to school again")
>> Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
>> Director: James A. Contner
>>
>> I think this is our first three-writer script. Did they bounce it
>> around trying to get some life out of it or something?
>
>
> Personally, I think this shows how much time Whedon had spent on Hush,
> and now he didn't contribute much. There, what you have left without
> him: stupidity.
>
>> The fact that Riley is boring doesn't help either.
>
>
> I don't feel that boring covers it. No, boring falls short.
>
> ;-)
>
>> Well, we survived three seasons of Cordelia, we can survive this.
>
>
> You know what? Comparing Riley and Cordy? That's the most appalling
> thing you have ever said. If there are any God, you will burn in hell
> for that one.
>
> And look, no smiley.
Ok, that one needed a spray warning. Really.
Sam
Not much more *backstory*, anyway. That bit's about as straightforward
as it seems -- the chip stops Spike from hurting human beings. And only
human beings.
In terms of story potential, though, I have to admit that I found the
idea of the still-wholeheartedly-evil Spike suddenly wanting to fight
evil purely for the fun of killing things rather intriguing. And, of
course, his rousing speech about fighting evil for puppies and
Christmas is one of the funnier Spike moments.
--Sam
alphakitten
> It's not much, but I give it a Decent. To me its the 87th best in BtVS, 14th
> best in Season 4.
>
It's the 132nd best in BtVS, 20th best in S4 for me. So I'm going with Bad.
~Angel
Arbitrar Of Quality
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > landed on a ledge. That didn't stop people from discussing the
> > aerodynamics of an unladen Slayer.
>
> caribbean bostonian or californian slayer?
I'm not going to be able to top that one.
-AOQ
Espen Schjønberg
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>>landed on a ledge. That didn't stop people from discussing the
>>>aerodynamics of an unladen Slayer.
>>
>>caribbean bostonian or californian slayer?
>
>
> I'm not going to be able to top that one.
This discussion is not going up, but down.
--
Espen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
my scale is along the lines that the worst episodes of btvs
are better than the best episodes of nigh on all other series
i dont watch passion or gur obql but thats because theyre too painful
alphakitten
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <4458D4B0...@netscape.net>,
> alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Apteryx wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It's not much, but I give it a Decent. To me its the 87th best in BtVS,
>>>14th
>>>best in Season 4.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>It's the 132nd best in BtVS, 20th best in S4 for me. So I'm going with Bad.
>
>
> my scale is along the lines that the worst episodes of btvs
> are better than the best episodes of nigh on all other series
My scale is along the lines that the worst episodes of BtVS are better
than the best episodes of everything that's not named "The Sopranos" or
"Deadwood".
>
> i dont watch passion or gur obql but thats because theyre too painful
I watch 'em all. I don't mind painful, and even those eps have priceless
moments of random hilarity. Okay Gur Obql, not so much, but still.
~Angel
One Bit Shy
> Cool opening this week as we pick up with the same scene we left off
> with at the end of "Hush." I don't think the show has done that
> before, actually. Especially nice given that the two aired like a
> month apart. The silence doesn't seem to have helped our couple,
> since Buffy seems especially angry this time around. She really had
> her heart set on the normal-guy thing...
I always like the framing of the shot with them sitting their facing
each other in silence. It also reminds me that some of their best
moments together were in the silence of Hush. The initial shock of
facing each other. Watching in wonder each other fight (especially
Riley's wonder). The silent exchange around smashing the box -
especially the puppy dog look for approval by Riley when he smashed the
wrong thing....
KInd of highlights in contrast how weak the chemistry is in this
episode and how essentially dull much of the conversation is between
them.
Even so, this first conversation is the one that worked best for me.
More on that in a sec.
> There's a lot of Buffy/Riley stuff throughout the episode, so let's
> talk about it up front. After a brief attempt to address the problems
> that their respective vocations might cause, the episode mostly boils
> their problems down to Buffy deciding that because past relationships
> that were vaguely similar ended up Doomed, so will this one. And she
> needs a little time and a little bit of cold logic to get past that.
While I don't disagree on the dullness of these exchanges - the lack of
chemistry - I do disagree about their meaning. Their part of the
episode is learning about each other - but most of all, Riley learning
about Buffy - and by extension the way things *really* are.
Going back to the first scene when they ask each other who they are,
Riley doesn't actually answer. Indeed he says very little about the
Initiative throughout the show. Perversely, Buffy tells Riley who he
is - and freaks him out a little by being so accurate.
But, when Buffy tells Riley who she is, he's totally ignorant - unable
to understand. The Slayer? What's that? (I rather like Buffy's,
"Look it up. Slayer. Comma. The.")
You see, this episode really isn't much about Buffy. It's very much
about Riley. It's his world that's being rocked - not Buffy's.
When he returns to the Initiative and talks to Forrest, he hears about
the Slayer as a fairy tale. And demons are just animals - that's all.
But he can see that the Slayer is real and immensely powerful. And
he's beginning to understand that demons are something considerably
more than animals. I don't know what Buffy tells Riley about the
Vahrall demons, but even a hint of the end of the world ritual and
talismans and sacrifices would be utterly beyond Riley's prior
understanding.
The same goes for the more personal aspect of he and Buffy. Buffy's
message to him - hammered over and over - is that Riley doesn't
understand. And she's right every time. Much more so than Riley is in
reverse. Riley's trying to figure out what's going on. Buffy knows.
Riley: You don't go after a demon that size by yourself.
Buffy: I do.
Riley is quick enough to grasp that's because she's the Slayer and he's
not. But until that moment it was an implication he didn't realize.
And he continues to struggle throughout with the implications of this
being a truly relentless way of life for Buffy.
Riley: I mean, you're a fry cook and so am I!
Buffy: Yeah, but you're an amateur fry cook and I come form a long line
of fry cooks that don't live past 25.
Riley: Which is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Look, I know
the risks of what we do. I also know it's more rewarding than any
other job on the planet... and fun.
Buffy: Fun? The last person I know that believed that is in a coma
right now because she had so much fun on the job.
Riley thinks that's just bad attitude. But he doesn't know death like
Buffy does. Riley's caught up in the adventure of demon fighting -
which Buffy actually does understand. But Buffy also understands the
downside of that "fun" in a way that Riley has never conceived.
On the surface these conversations are Riley trying to win Buffy and
her coming up with excuses. But I suggest they're really about
upsetting Riley's established world.
When the earthquake hit, Buffy said it wasn't her first time. Which
served as reminder of the terrors back in S1. But that angst kind of
fizzled here and was largely treated as a joke. ("It's the end of the
world." "Again?") In the end it's Riley's world that's shook. And
this is Riley's first time.
----
Also, time and logic isn't what gets Buffy to accept Riley. Riley
proved himself good in a fight and provided useful, greatly needed
help. In other words, he earned it by deed, not by words.
> The fact that Riley is boring doesn't help either. And just because
> the show loves me so much, Blucas graduates to
> picture-in-the-opening-titles status. Ugh. Well, we survived three
> seasons of Cordelia, we can survive this. And I don't in fact
> particularly dislike Riley, given that doing so would require him to be
> capable of eliciting an emotional reaction at all. Actually, the
> character did work for me for one fleeting moment this time: his
> self-mocking diatribe about his letting the Initiative down with his
> inability to ad-lib. I think that's maybe the third Riley scene
> I've cared about to any extent (the first two were in "Fear
> Itself" and "Pangs," for the record - maybe we should keep
> count).
All I can suggest for Riley is that if he's not working well for you
(which is not unusual at all), try to follow emotional context with him
rather then emotional expression. He may be dull, but that doesn't
mean that what he goes through is dull.
> This is all wrapped up in the nominal plot, which is one of the weakest
> the show has come up with in quite some time. A bunch of demons want
> to open the Hellmouth, and our heroes fight them. The excitement is
> whatever the exact opposite of palpable is. The writers do at least
> realize that just having "the end of the world" without any other
> reason to care isn't going to make much of an impression on our
> heroes, given the kind of stuff they deal with.
I call it the monster non-story of the week. An extraordinarly limp
plot. And the only reason to care offered - end of the world - is
essentially ridiculed. They pretty much hung up a sign on it saying,
"Pay no attention to this story. That's not what the episode's about."
It's entire purpose appears to serve as a series of constructs to get
characters where and when they need to be, doing the things they need
to do, for their own reasons.
Even so, I was amused at the end of the world - again! moment, along
with Buffy's I told you so. "I told you. I-I said end of the world
and you're like poo-poo southern California, poo-poo!" And Giles
realization that he had the talisman.
But on the even more downside, I don't know why it was necessary for
Giles to be so bloodied. And the closing fight scene was unimpressive
- downright stupid when Buffy defied the laws of physics to an absurd
level with her dive into the hole.
> How far in advance did everyone realize that the three demons were the
> sacrifice?
I don't remember. I'm not sure that I would have cared.
> I have no comment about Percy's reappearance, since it doesn't
> merit much thought. It's weird seeing Willow regress to social
> awkwardness after the beginning of the year. The dialogue rather
> explicitly suggests that Oz played a big role in making her feel cool,
> which played a role in making her cool. Huh.
Self image is what matters here. (Everybody already knows Percy is an
oaf.) Which leads to...
> And a comment from Mrs. Quality about Willow: "Pink and red do *not*
> go together."
Yes. Willow's dressing badly again. One hopes this will improve.
> The one real redeeming thing about this episode is Spike, who salvages
> what he can of the whole losers' plot. I particularly like the
> rapport he and his host have been building as he leeches off Xander's
> minimum wage. Both characters have fairly entertaining speeches in
> which they verbally tear each other apart. And I'd say the Big
> Ex-Bad gets the better of things, since he reads people so well. We
> know that the other Scoobies aren't tenth-grade losers that Buffy's
> looking for an excuse to ditch, but what matters is that, when
> they're in that particular mind-state, it could very well feel true.
> Spike can keep up a demoralizing stream of relentless mockery of
> anyone, and he even has poise with the self-loathing. I think that as
> far as he's concerned, he may be life's bitch, but at least he's
> man enough to admit it. Along the way, there are fun moments like the
> initial reveal of him wearing that outfit, and the darkly comic suicide
> attempt. Not so wild about the closing scene for some reason, though.
Spike's scenes are the highlight of the episode, yes. And very funny.
But look at the flow a little closer. The first purpose of the episode
is to advance Riley's story. The second is to advance Spike's story.
It's actually kind of a big deal.
Phase 1 - Humiliation. The clothes. Xander's brutal ridicule. (And
now the second time since the Initiative that he's been called
impotent.) He's driven so low that he attempts suicide - fails - and
then has to endure the indiginity of being shephered around town so
that he doesn't hurt himself. Having to put up with sweetness from
Willow (who he really would bite in a sec if he could) like, "It's
ooky. We know him, we can't just let him poof himself!" (You also
note, incidentally, Willow returning to the sympathy and a little of
the language from their Initiative encounter.)
Phase 2 - Retaliation. You're right about Spike's skill at the
demoralizing stream of relentless mockery. Calling Willow and Xander
Buffy's groupies seemed quite a blow. But there's one more thing to
notice - Spike's smile as he walks away from them. That was probably
the most fun Spike has had since the Initiative captured him. He may
not be able to fight, but he's not completely impotent.
Phase 3 - A new opportunity. The discovery that he can hit demons has
got to be huge for him. While this is not what he had in mind, it does
mean that he's not impotent. (In his own eyes anyway.) Who cares if
they're demons? He's evil. Betrayal is high art. What matters is
that he can exult in the joy of violence and be bad again.
"For justice and for the safety of puppies!"
> And no comment yet about Spike's sudden ability to fight evil without
> migraines; I'm sure there's more story to come there.
He's a main character and there's always more story to come. LOL!
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Spike trying to attack Xander with the wrench
> - "Oh, as usual, dear"
> - "Ah'm just an ol' pal of Xander's, here..."
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Show some life, people!
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
There are way too many problems with this show to classify it as Good.
But substantial advancement of two main characters occur, and there is
much entertainment in the frequent Spike scenes. I would consider it
Decent.
Even so, it's near the bottom for the season.
OBS
Shuggie
>>They wanted to replace Cordy with Anya, but I think Spike gets all the
>>good points Cordy at this stage _would_ have gotten.
>
> James Marsters said that he was told he'd be the 'Cordy replacement' so
> to speak - the one on the sidelines telling the heroes they were all
> stupid etc. Of course Anya also has the thing of speaking before
> thinking that Cordy had.
>
I think you mean '... the thing of telling it like it is because she
doesn't care what people think of her' (see: "tact is just not saying
true stuff - I'll pass")
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
> (or "You can't go to school again")
> Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
One thing that bothered me about this episode is that Riley was being
exceptionally stupid. It should have been blindingly obvious to him
that Buffy got a lot of her information about the Initiative from
Hostile 17, but it never even occurs to him. He even sees Spike at the
end, but doesn't recognize him.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 11: "Doomed"
> (or "You can't go to school again")
> Writers: Marti Noxon and David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
I personally think of it as "Spike got his mojo back!"
>
> I think this is our first three-writer script. Did they bounce it
> around trying to get some life out of it or something?
>
<snip>
>
> I think that's maybe the third Riley scene
> I've cared about to any extent (the first two were in "Fear
> Itself" and "Pangs," for the record - maybe we should keep
> count).
Can we not and say we did? Less time and energy that way.
> The scenes juxtaposing Slaypack brainstorming and Initiative
> brainstorming gave me way more phony-sounding declarative
> "military" talk than I care to see. The most
> probably-unintentionally funny moment of the episode is Riley's
> reference to getting a look at the enemy as "my visual analysis."
> I mean, really. Random note here: The Initiative uses the metric
> system.
The Initiative is my least favorite story line as a whole. It's got some
good moments but it never captured my attention like it should have. I
give this episode some credit because the scenes not associated with it
are pretty good.
>
> This is all wrapped up in the nominal plot, which is one of the weakest
> the show has come up with in quite some time. A bunch of demons want
> to open the Hellmouth, and our heroes fight them. The excitement is
> whatever the exact opposite of palpable is. The writers do at least
> realize that just having "the end of the world" without any other
> reason to care isn't going to make much of an impression on our
> heroes, given the kind of stuff they deal with. So it seems even
> weirder that "Doomed" acknowledges that but doesn't spice things
> up, unless you count the rather pointless stroll through the old sets.
"Mayor meat" ugh.
<snip>
>
> And a comment from Mrs. Quality about Willow: "Pink and red do *not*
> go together."
Poor fashion challenged Willow.
>
> The one real redeeming thing about this episode is Spike, who salvages
> what he can of the whole losers' plot. I particularly like the
> rapport he and his host have been building as he leeches off Xander's
> minimum wage. Both characters have fairly entertaining speeches in
> which they verbally tear each other apart. And I'd say the Big
> Ex-Bad gets the better of things, since he reads people so well. We
> know that the other Scoobies aren't tenth-grade losers that Buffy's
> looking for an excuse to ditch, but what matters is that, when
> they're in that particular mind-state, it could very well feel true.
> Spike can keep up a demoralizing stream of relentless mockery of
> anyone, and he even has poise with the self-loathing. I think that as
> far as he's concerned, he may be life's bitch, but at least he's
> man enough to admit it. Along the way, there are fun moments like the
> initial reveal of him wearing that outfit, and the darkly comic suicide
> attempt. Not so wild about the closing scene for some reason, though.
Spike saved this episode. The scene with Xander in the basement, where
he essentially rips Spike a new one is well done. Spike needed to be put
in his place and Xander did it, perfectly (and the wardrobe! I laughed
out loud the first time I saw Spike in that horrible shirt).
Everything that happened between Xander, Willow and Spike elevated this
episode to a decent for me. Plus, the big speech at the end with his
"oh, C'mon!" being played after the fade to black is one of my favorite
Spike moments. The way W and X were just staring at him blankly as he
spoke, funny stuff.
>
> And no comment yet about Spike's sudden ability to fight evil without
> migraines; I'm sure there's more story to come there.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Spike trying to attack Xander with the wrench
> - "Oh, as usual, dear"
> - "Ah'm just an ol' pal of Xander's, here..."
"I was helping!"
P.S. Whatever pace you are watching the show, if it works for you, keep
doing it. I don't think you're ruining anything by it.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Show some life, people!
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
>
> [Season Four so far:
> 1) "The Freshman" - Good
> 2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
> 3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
> 4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
> 5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
> 6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
> 7) "The Initiative" - Decent
> 8) "Pangs" - Good
> 9) "Something Blue" - Good
> 10) "Hush" - Good
> 11) "Doomed" - Weak]
>
Michael Ikeda
news:1146686566.2...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> When the earthquake hit, Buffy said it wasn't her first time.
> Which served as reminder of the terrors back in S1. But that
> angst kind of fizzled here and was largely treated as a joke.
> ("It's the end of the world." "Again?")
I rather liked that line...
>
>> I have no comment about Percy's reappearance, since it doesn't
>> merit much thought. It's weird seeing Willow regress to social
>> awkwardness after the beginning of the year. The dialogue
>> rather explicitly suggests that Oz played a big role in making
>> her feel cool, which played a role in making her cool. Huh.
>
> Self image is what matters here. (Everybody already knows Percy
> is an oaf.) Which leads to...
And Percy's insult is actually a sort of compliment, if you think
about it. After all, he insulted Willow to appease his jealous
girlfriend. And she wouldn't have been jealous if she didn't feel
at least a little threatened.
Granted that Willow wasn't in any mood to look at it that way.
>
> Phase 3 - A new opportunity. The discovery that he can hit
> demons has got to be huge for him. While this is not what he
> had in mind, it does mean that he's not impotent. (In his own
> eyes anyway.) Who cares if they're demons? He's evil.
> Betrayal is high art. What matters is that he can exult in the
> joy of violence and be bad again.
>
> "For justice and for the safety of puppies!"
>
Loved that scene. Spike pretending to be the crusading hero until
he finally lets slip his real motive.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
KenM47
One Bit Shy
> Exp315 wrote:
>
>> Why don't you slow down a little AOQ, give us a chance to get out ahead
>> of you again! :-)
>
> Does anyone else want to request slower posting? I'm watching them
> really fast...
>
> -AOQ
I'll probably fall behind a couple this weekend when I go out of town. But
that's probably a blessing for you. <g> And I'll catch up anyway.
OBS
Eric Hunter
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> Cool opening this week as we pick up with the same scene we left off
>> with at the end of "Hush." I don't think the show has done that
>> before, actually.
>
> each other in silence.
>
>> talk about it up front. After a brief attempt to address the
>> problems that their respective vocations might cause, the episode
>> mostly boils their problems down to Buffy deciding that because
>> past relationships that were vaguely similar ended up Doomed, so
>> will this one. And she needs a little time and a little bit of cold
>> logic to get past that.
>
> While I don't disagree on the dullness of these exchanges - the lack
> of chemistry - I do disagree about their meaning. Their part of the
> episode is learning about each other - but most of all, Riley learning
> about Buffy - and by extension the way things *really* are.
>
> Going back to the first scene when they ask each other who they are,
> Riley doesn't actually answer. Indeed he says very little about the
> Initiative throughout the show. Perversely, Buffy tells Riley who he
> is - and freaks him out a little by being so accurate.
>
> But, when Buffy tells Riley who she is, he's totally ignorant - unable
> to understand. The Slayer? What's that? (I rather like Buffy's,
> "Look it up. Slayer. Comma. The.")
>
> You see, this episode really isn't much about Buffy. It's very much
> about Riley. It's his world that's being rocked - not Buffy's.
>
>
> (which is not unusual at all), try to follow emotional context with
> him rather then emotional expression. He may be dull, but that
> doesn't mean that what he goes through is dull.
>
>
> Phase 3 - A new opportunity. The discovery that he can hit demons has
> got to be huge for him. While this is not what he had in mind, it
> does mean that he's not impotent. (In his own eyes anyway.) Who
> cares if they're demons? He's evil. Betrayal is high art. What
> matters is that he can exult in the joy of violence and be bad again.
>
> "For justice and for the safety of puppies!"
>
>
> There are way too many problems with this show to classify it as Good.
> But substantial advancement of two main characters occur, and there is
> much entertainment in the frequent Spike scenes. I would consider it
> Decent.
>
Outstanding post, OBS, thank you. Like the AoQ review of DMP,
and the subsequent discussion, this post clarified things I saw, but
did not understand in the episode. "Doomed" is very much Riley's
"The Zeppo". It's not as good because Riley is such a humorless
character, but that does explain the flimsiness of the A-plot.
Thanks,
Eric.
--
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <ult...@mail.com> wrote:
> In the end it's Riley's world that's shook. And
> this is Riley's first time.
Naq vg fvaxf va cebcreyl arkg gvzr jura ur ernyvfrf ur arrqf gb yrnea
gur cyheny bs ncbpnylcfr.
DysgraphicProgrammer
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Exp315 wrote:
>
> > Why don't you slow down a little AOQ, give us a chance to get out ahead
> > of you again! :-)
>
> Does anyone else want to request slower posting? I'm watching them
> really fast...
>
> -AOQ
Personally, I would vote for a slight slowdown. Finals are coming up
and I have been having a tough tme deciding between Buffy, study and
sleep..
Arbitrar Of Quality
> P.S. Whatever pace you are watching the show, if it works for you, keep
> doing it. I don't think you're ruining anything by it.
Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to slow down; it's (usually) an
addictive show. Apologies to those who're having a hard time keeping
up; I still want to read whatever you have to say, even if it's a week
after the original post or whatever.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > You see, this episode really isn't much about Buffy. It's very much
> > about Riley. It's his world that's being rocked - not Buffy's.
> Outstanding post, OBS, thank you. Like the AoQ review of DMP,
> and the subsequent discussion, this post clarified things I saw, but
> did not understand in the episode. "Doomed" is very much Riley's
> "The Zeppo". It's not as good because Riley is such a humorless
> character, but that does explain the flimsiness of the A-plot.
That's a worthwhile way of thinking about it. Knowing that there was a
potentially good idea mixed somewhere in there makes the episode a
little less inexplicable to me.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:EICdnQA3crw...@comcast.com...
My pleasure. Too bad this isn't as entertaining as something like the
Zeppo.
Ohg gurer'f shgher bccbeghavgl. Evyrl trgf n jubyr ybggn yrffbaf bs guvf
fbeg. Gur Vavgvngvir nep vf gb n irel ynetr rkgrag Evyrl'f fgbel. Zber fb
guna vg'f Ohssl'f fgbel.
OBS
jil...@hotmail.com
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> and offers chips and bean dip to everyone
Bad mariposas! Don't do that! Besides, you forgot about the cheese.
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> One thing that bothered me about this episode is that Riley was being
> exceptionally stupid. It should have been blindingly obvious to him
> that Buffy got a lot of her information about the Initiative from
> Hostile 17, but it never even occurs to him. He even sees Spike at the
> end, but doesn't recognize him.
Here I go, disagreeing with someone. How in the world would Riley ever
have a clue that Hostile 17 is the answer?
Forget the fans who think that Spike is to die for and every character
must lust after him, or at least pay him attention. Clearly in Spike's
time at the Initiative, the most attention paid to him was "does this
thing work?" To them he was only another vampire, just like all the
others. The 17th one, for some designation.
Possibly Riley never even interacted with him outside of his capture.
"Oh look, some guy in ugly clothes with bleached hair." Please, why
would Riley even think to look for a leather-clad white-haired
(bleached yes I know) vampire with Buffy and her "geeky" friends?
Rowan Hawthorn
That's in the bean dip...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg,
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
peachy ashie passion
I think you misunderstand what is meant by "the answer".
I believe that the intention was to say that given that they just
lost a captive, namely "hostile 17", it should be an obvious conclusion
to Riley that this missing Hostile was the source of Buffy's information.
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> > One thing that bothered me about this episode is that Riley was being
> > exceptionally stupid. It should have been blindingly obvious to him
> > that Buffy got a lot of her information about the Initiative from
> > Hostile 17, but it never even occurs to him. He even sees Spike at the
> > end, but doesn't recognize him.
>
> Here I go, disagreeing with someone. How in the world would Riley ever
> have a clue that Hostile 17 is the answer?
Where was the last place he saw Hostile 17? Right outside Buffy's room.
(And he'd been in it just before that.) Why would a vampire go straight
to the room of the Slayer if there wasn't some sort of relationship
between them? Riley should now have a pretty good idea who kicked his
ass in the hallway too.
> Forget the fans who think that Spike is to die for and every character
> must lust after him, or at least pay him attention. Clearly in Spike's
> time at the Initiative, the most attention paid to him was "does this
> thing work?" To them he was only another vampire, just like all the
> others. The 17th one, for some designation.
>
> Possibly Riley never even interacted with him outside of his capture.
> "Oh look, some guy in ugly clothes with bleached hair." Please, why
> would Riley even think to look for a leather-clad white-haired
> (bleached yes I know) vampire with Buffy and her "geeky" friends?
I'm sure that they took lots of pictures of him, and have shown the
pictures to all their field people. How else are they supposed to tell
Hostile 17 from any other vampire? Most of the pictures they showed
their people probably would have been just his face, with maybe a "last
seen wearing a black leather duster" description that the people
searching for him shouldn't be paying too much attention to, because
it's easy to change a coat.
Don Sample
Especially given that the last time they saw Hostile 17, he was in
Buffy's room.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> >> in three episodes spike announces he is the frito bandito
> >> and offers chips and bean dip to everyone
> >
> > Bad mariposas! Don't do that! Besides, you forgot about the cheese.
> >
>
> That's in the bean dip...
who cut the bean dip?
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-973680...@news.giganews.com...
I'm a little bit tolerant of him not figuring it out in this episode.
Riley's got a lot of info to take in that's already rather overwhelming.
And I don't think his first concept would be some kind of collaboration with
a demon. More likely, he would first be thinking things like some kind of
leak, or penetration of the Initiative facility, or some other kind of
observation. Buffy's like a magical thing to him at the moment. Who knows
what she's capable of?
Expecting Riley to actually recognize him is chancier. I'm not so sure they
did take pictures of Spike. We didn't see any handed out when they hunted
him after escaping. He was just another vampire to them after all - and one
would guess that vampires are a dime a dozen to them. They may not have had
a reason to photograph him.
Ubjrire, gung rkphfr jrnef guva dhvpxyl. Nqq Znttvr gb gur rdhngvba naq
vg'f varkcyvpnoyr gung gurl qvqa'g ng yrnfg fgebatyl fhfcrpg. Jul qvqa'g
gurl fvzcyl nfx Ohssl qverpgyl ubj fur xarj fb zhpu?
OBS
Espen Schjønberg
>
> Even so, I was amused at the end of the world - again! moment, along
> with Buffy's I told you so. "I told you. I-I said end of the world
> and you're like poo-poo southern California, poo-poo!" And Giles
> realization that he had the talisman.
An episode not respecting itself. You might say I demand too much. I
demand the episodes to take themself seriously, and they don't, and it
is a silly thing to want them to. But on one level, I do want them to
take themself seriously. This is the "wrong" type of
not-taking-itself-seriously for me.
> But on the even more downside, I don't know why it was necessary for
> Giles to be so bloodied.
Also, the problem is that that's cartoon-style. Why don't the demon just
kill Giles, then? How many times should someone survive a dice-roll like
that? In this case, I would say zero.
Of course, that should-have-died is a consequence of my point number one.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Espen Schjønberg
But are you some kind of demon, being able to look at every episode only
once, and then remembering them forever?
Why don't you start over, and take a rerun from the start?
Eric Hunter
> Eric Hunter wrote:
>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>>> You see, this episode really isn't much about Buffy. It's very much
>>> about Riley. It's his world that's being rocked - not Buffy's.
>
>> "The Zeppo". It's not as good because Riley is such a humorless
>> character, but that does explain the flimsiness of the A-plot.
>
> That's a worthwhile way of thinking about it. Knowing that there was
> a potentially good idea mixed somewhere in there makes the episode
> a little less inexplicable to me.
This actually makes a lot of sense, now that I consider it.
Riley's approach to HST's, and indeed life, is very matter-
of-fact, and this is exactly the approach that the Scoobies
take to the apocalypse in 'Doomed'. Could 'Doomed' be
shown from Riley's perspective, as 'The Zeppo' is shown
from Xander's? ( Does this mean I have to watch it again,
if no-one volunteers to check? ;-) )
Eric.
--
One Bit Shy
Doomed clearly isn't the highly mannered episode that The Zeppo is with
the greatly exaggerated Xander-centric viewpoint. Doomed is also
concerned with more than Riley. (Notably Spike.) So I couldn't
consider the two as equivalent.
But I believe that the down-playing of the end of the world story
definitely is intended to emphasize it as old hat - no longer a big
deal to the experienced Scoobies.
I've generally taken that as part of emphasizing Riley's story.
Starting with the simple earthquake metaphor at the start when we find
it's Riley's first one - but not Buffy's. I tend to focus on how
Riley's world is really upset, but Buffy's world isn't.
However, a Zeppo like comparison is an interesting extension which
seems to have some validity. Riley is also going to see how this mind
blowing event to him is another day at the office to them. Which also
upsets his view of the world. He had always thought of himself as the
man in charge out there on the edge of fantastic events. Not anymore.
I guess they couldn't really redo the Zeppo - it's been done. But the
thought further emphasizes the shame that Doomed wasn't more fun and
interesting.
OBS
Daniel Damouth
news:1146686566.2...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
> Riley: I mean, you're a fry cook and so am I!
> Buffy: Yeah, but you're an amateur fry cook and I come form a long
> line of fry cooks that don't live past 25.
> Riley: Which is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Look, I
> know the risks of what we do. I also know it's more rewarding
> than any other job on the planet... and fun.
> Buffy: Fun? The last person I know that believed that is in a
> coma right now because she had so much fun on the job.
>
> Riley thinks that's just bad attitude. But he doesn't know death
> like Buffy does. Riley's caught up in the adventure of demon
> fighting - which Buffy actually does understand. But Buffy also
> understands the downside of that "fun" in a way that Riley has
> never conceived.
>
> On the surface these conversations are Riley trying to win Buffy
> and her coming up with excuses. But I suggest they're really
> about upsetting Riley's established world.
I nominate this post for trenchant article of the month. I've always
liked Doomed, for all the reasons pointed out here; especially the
pessimistic death and relationships angst Buffy has, and Riley's
journey of understanding it.
Outstanding post.
-Dan Damouth
Espen Schjønberg
The more you say, the less I like it.
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
And this should bother us why, exactly?
Espen Schjønberg
> In article <e3d2tm$ns5$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>The more you say, the less I like it.
>
>
> And this should bother us why, exactly?
It is youre own discretion to decide whether you want to bother about my
disliking of this episode just grows the more if someone tries to
explain why it is "good".
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 04.05.2006 23:43, vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <e3d2tm$ns5$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> > Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> [someone wrote blah blah Doomed is good.]
> >>
> >>The more you say, the less I like it.
> >
> >
> > And this should bother us why, exactly?
>
> It is youre own discretion to decide whether you want to bother about my
> disliking of this episode just grows the more if someone tries to
> explain why it is "good".
It was more the snarky dismissal of a perfectly logical and reasonable
argument (not one I especially agree with - the episode leaves me
largely indifferent). And which you then repeat. If you want to dish it
out...
Now, aren't you due a Service Pack?
Espen Schjønberg
>
> Now, aren't you due a Service Pack?
I'll be back, then.
--
Espen