Buffy Mary Sue Litmus Test...
Tara LJC O'Shea
and could use some feedback from other writers/fanfic readers.
I'm going to try and cut and paste, but if that doesn't work, you cna
find the formatted HTMl page at
http://ljc.simplenet.com/buffy_litmus.html
mary sue litmus test
This test is based on the (original)
Mary Sue Litmus Test by Melissa Wilson.
Keep in mind that not every original character is a Mary Sue. For each
of the below traits that apply to
your original character, award one point. The score will tell you
whether or not your character crosses
the line.
Slayer and/or Vampire (add 2 points if she's a vampire with a
soul)
Is a descendant of a Slayer or Was made a vampire by Angelus,
Spike, or the Master
Rules that apply to others are bent or broken for her
Is often maverick or unconventional, even compared to Buffy and/or
Faith
Is able to accomplish something single-handedly that the entire
Scooby Gang has not been
able to accomplish together, or has only been able to accomplish
at great cost (i.e., closes the
Hellmouth beneath Sunnydale, restores a vampire's soul, removes
the loophole of Angel's
curse, vanquishes an entire nest of Master-like vampires, etc.)
Excels at everything she turns her hand to or conversely, fails at
everything she turns her hand
to, but is forgiven
Is connected to a series regular, either through familial or
psuedo-familial ties (Giles' illegitimate
daughter, Descendent of Angel, Spike, Drusilla, etc., "adopted"
daughter, etc.) or through a
romantic relationship
Is unusually physically attractive
Unusual eye colour (violet, amber, etc.)
Her hair is mentioned repeatedly (down to her waist, fell in
blue-black waves, etc.)
Is immediately accepted into Scooby Gang without question or must
prove her worthiness to
accepted into Scooby Gang by performing Slayer-like feats
Is more Scooby than Scooby. (i.e., Is a better hacker than Willow,
a better witch than Tara, as
good or better hand-to-hand combatant as a Slayer, has more rare
books than Giles, more
occult connections than Willy the Snitch, etc.)
Has uncanny or supernatural abilities and skills (i.e., a witch, a
demon, a werewolf, etc.)
Is unusually accomplished for her age (is an 18 year old Watcher,
16 year old member of the
Initiative, etc.)
Is miraculously spared by every vampire she meets, rather than
immediately turned into
snackfood
Has a particularly traumatic past
Is universally liked and/or respected
Has an excellent singing voice
Shares a hobby or passion with a slayer/vampire/watcher/scooby
Dies a heroic death and is mourned by all
How to read your character's score:
0-5 Pass
6-10 Needs work
11-15 Needs major work
16-20 Beyond help
Do not despair! There are ways to turn your Mary Sue into an
interesting yet realistic protagonist. First
and foremost, avoid extremes and excesses. In order for your reader to
identify with a protagonist, the
protagonist should be kept to human scale, rather than operatic.
Jettison the superlatives and go for
believability. Do not make your protagonist you only cooler, taller,
thinner, smarter, and from the future
and able to read minds. Instead, think about guest stars and recurring
characters that have appeared
on the series itself, and try to add to their number without dropping a
superhero in their midst. For
more information about Mary Sue in fan fiction, read the Fanfic FAQ.
* Slayer and/or Vampire (add 2 points if she's a vampire with a soul)
Okay, first off, to put it bluntly, the series is called Buffy The
Vampire Slayer—not Mary Sue The
Vampire Slayer. Unless you are a) creating an alternate universe where
the current slayer is Mary Sue
rather than Buffy or Faith, or b) writing historical fiction about a
past slayer or speculative fiction about
a future slayer (a la Batman Beyond), there is no reason to create yet
another Slayer. For every Faith
(dynamic, interesting, and well-written character), you get five
Kendras (tries, but misses the mark).
People read Buffy fan fiction because they are looking for stories
about the characters they know and
love--and the chances of them, developing the same passion and devotion
to Mary Sue the Vampire
Slayer are slim to none. Likewise, Angel is unique. If there are all
kinds of vamps with souls running
around, you are completely undermining the character's importance in
the Buffy universe. Why rehash
what the series have already done?
* Is a descendant of a Slayer or was made a vampire by Angelus, Spike,
or Drusilla
Often, in her desire to be closer to her favourite characters, an
author will envision herself as somehow
related to the series leads. Unless there are strong plot reasons for
doing so, examine your motives.
For example, Somnambulist was a good reason to introduce Penn, and the
audience bought it despite
the continuity errors mainly because the story told us something more
about Angel that was in
keeping with what we already knew, and more importantly, impacted the
characters lives profoundly.
Penn existed to remind us that Angel is not entirely cuddly and still
has a long way to go to atone for
his past, but also to reveal Angel's secret to Kate. This was a valid
reason for the characters
relationship to one another, that best served the plot.
* Is connected to a series regular, either through familial or
psuedo-familial ties (Giles'
illegitimate daughter, Descendent of Angel, Spike, Drusilla, etc.,
"adopted" daughter, etc.) or
through a romantic relationship
It is the author's desire to be closer to her favourite character
manifested through a surrogate, and it is
transparent and usually forced. If you can find a way to sever
unusually close ties do so for the sake of
believability. I'm not saying that all of these stories are uniformly
poorly written and in no way
entertaining. But I am saying that not only is it a cliché, it has
become quite possibly the single most
contrived hallmark of the Buffy Mary Sue, and as such should be avoided
at all costs. That said,
characters with ties to the cast can still be interesting— if their
relationship is a major plot point, and
is handled realistically. If I am reading a story about Giles learning
that he has a teenaged daughter by
an acquaintance from his former days as a punk rocker, if the
characterisations are spot on, and the
emotional content gripping without being melodrama, I'm willing to cut
way more slack than I may to a
story where Mary Sue reveals at the 11th hour that she was Liam's
great-great-great granddaughter by
a Galway barmaid. It all depends on the strength of the plot, and
characterisations. If you're making
your character related to the cast just because you want to be that
smidge closer to your favourite
character, then you are allowing your personal fantasy to get in the
way of the good of the story. The
quality of the story always, always, always comes first.
* Rules that apply to others are bent or broken for her
Hi. Have you met Faith?
* Is often maverick or unconventional, even compared to Buffy and/or
Faith
What has made Buffy unique compared to all the previous slayers is her
working in concert with the
Scooby Gang (for which there would seem to be no precedent) and ability
to trust her instincts and
problem solving abilities rather than rely on standard Slayer practices
(according to the Watcher's
Council, anyway). Buffy finds what works for her, rather than trying to
do what is expected of her. She
often surprises her prey not because she is smarter, or stronger
even--but because she is clever, and
quick, and thinks differently than they do. Buffy is the ultimate 90s
girl and is celebrated for her
diversity, rather than chastised for it. However, Faith pushed the
limits (of the law, as well as morality)
and was punished for it. The series has already explored this with
Buffy, and then Faith. Adding a new
character to illustrate the same points would either be rehashing what
the show has already done, or
can appear to be trying to out-Buffy Buffy (or out-Faith Faith, if
you're thinking of adding a "bad girl.").
* Is able to accomplish something single-handedly that the entire Scooby
Gang has not been
able to accomplish together, or has only been able to accomplish at
great cost (i.e., closes
the Hellmouth beneath Sunnydale, restores a vampire's soul, removes the
loophole of
Angel's curse, vanquishes an entire nest of Master-like vampires, etc.)
Try and keep your supporting cast to human scale, rather than operatic.
It's awfully hard to
sympathise and identify with someone living through the Nibelungen.
Don't let your additions to the
gang eclipse the canonical characters to the extent the show's
characters become guest stars in an
episode of Mary Sue the Vampire Slayer. Unless you're writing parody,
or recasting Superstar with
Mary Sue as Jonathan, avoid all extremes when creating an original
character, and keep her abilities
and skills to human level rather than Superhero. The show already has
one Superhero—and her name
is Buffy Summers.
* Excels at everything she turns her hand to or conversely, fails at
everything she turns her
hand to, but is forgiven
Nobody's perfect. And nobody's so cute that when they burn down the
gym, they're not kicked out of
the high school... Seriously: extremes are to be avoided. Go for
realism.
* Is unusually physically
attractive
How many supermodels did you go to high school with? Young men and
women may be attractive,
you rarely run into Greek Gods. People like to read about real people.
* Unusual eye colour (violet, amber, etc.)
Unless they are wearing colour contact lenses, no one has violet eyes.
Not even Liz Taylor. Go with
the norms for whatever ethnicity you have chosen—blondes are
genetically pre-disposed toward light
eyes (blue or green). Brunettes are genetically pre-disposed toward
dark eyes (brown or black).
Redheads are are genetically pre-disposed toward shades of brown and
green. Asians predominantly
have dark eyes, as do the Spanish, Hispanic, and African and African
Americans.
* Her hair is mentioned repeatedly (down to her waist, fell in
blue-black waves, etc.)
Cut all but one mention, unless it relates somehow to the plot. Do not
wax lyrical about her locks.
* Is immediately accepted into Scooby Gang without question or must
prove her worthiness to
accepted into Scooby Gang by performing Slayer-like feats
Think about how each Scooby became a part of the gang, and how the
relationships formed and have
evolved. Also, keep in mind that while to us Buffy's slayer status may
seem like the worst kept secret
in Sunnydale, that's no reason for them to keep on adding folks to the
"In the Know" list without some
kind of screening first.
* Is more Scooby than Scooby. (i.e., Is a better hacker than Willow, a
better witch than Tara,
as good or better hand-to-hand combatant as a Slayer, has more rare
books than Giles, more
occult connections than Willy the Snitch, etc.)
While an English Major can also have a fondness for chemistry, and a
green beret member might cast
a few spells now and then (okay, in the Buffyverse anyway), no one is a
jack of all trades and equally
accomplished in each. Especially if the trade in question requires the
equivalent of a graduate degree,
or seven years of apprenticeship. Keep abilities to a reasonable scale,
and avoid upstaging a
canonical character who is the acknowledged "expert" in that category.
* Has uncanny or supernatural abilities and skills (i.e., a witch, a
demon, a werewolf, gets
visions, etc.)
Not everyone who lives on a Hellmouth (or in Los Angeles) can spin
pencils, is a radio transceiver for
the Powers that Be, or gets wacky in a lupine way every 28 days. Sure,
these folks gravitate toward
the Scooby Gang. But so do folks like Xander and Cordelia—normal humans
who are willing and brave
enough to help. Don't give your character magical powers just for the
sake of giving her magical
powers because you personally think it would be way cool to be a
Charmed One.
* Is unusually accomplished for her age (is an 18 year old Watcher, 16
year old member of the
Initiative, etc.)
Canonically, the youngest watcher we've ever met is Wesley (who
appeared to be in his mid-20s). He
was inexperienced, wet behind the ears, and full of book learnin' but
no street smarts. Even if Giles
and Wesley were trained from the cradle, it still takes years of
experience and study before you're
assigned to a Slayer. Likewise, the chances of the US Government is
recruiting someone who isn't
even old enough to vote for a super-secret covert operation—even if it
is located on a college
campus—are slim to none. Again, go with realism rather than fantasy. It
will make her triumphs and
failures more poignant if your reader can identify with your original
characters. But it's hard to identify
with a Superhero.
* Is miraculously spared by every vampire she meets, rather than
immediately turned into snackfood
Go with canonical examples on this one. It is extremely rare for a vamp
to listen first, let alone listen
first and not eat later. Spike fully intended to kill Ford, despite
making a deal with the poor kid. There's
little doubt that he would have killed Willow and Xander, had he not
sobered up and taken off to go
torture Dru again. Vampire Willow only listened to Anya because there
was something in it for her.
And while the Major adopted Faith, it was a mutually beneficial
relationship. What could your
character possibly give a vampire, that a vampire can't already take?
Seriously examine this one, and
weight your options.
* Has a particularly traumatic past
Do not torture your character in an attempt to have the audience
immediately empathise with her. Do
not try and out-pathos another character just for the sake of having an
even more traumatised
character. Sure, half the senior class was eaten at Graduation, and the
undertakers are probably all
millionaires. But that doesn't mean that every kid in town was orphaned
by a feeding frenzy, or has
witness countless atrocities that would have shattered a less hardy
soul.
* Is universally liked and/or respected
No one person is a seen as a saint by everyone. Even among less than a
dozen people, there will be
members of the gang who don't get along, or do but with some tension or
even apathy. After all,
Cordelia wasn't Willow's bestest bud. Willow isn't exactly bonding with
Anya. And Xander isn't
shooting hoops with Riley. Think about the dynamics of a group that
works and plays together— such
as a high school class. Look for real-life examples upon which to base
your fictional interpersonal
relationships and social dynamics.
* Has an excellent singing voice
When used in combination with other excellent traits, this in
particular stands out as a classic Mary
Sue identifier.
Shares a hobby or passion with a slayer/vampire/watcher/scooby
So far Tara is the only Scooby who became a Scooby through mutual
interests. SO carefully consider
your motives, and examine your plot to see if it genuinely works, or if
you're just looking for a way to
further bind your character to your favourite canonical character
unnecessarily.
* Dies a heroic death and is mourned by all
This is also very common Mary Sue identifier that should be avoided if
at all possible. Mary Sue is as
often martyred as she is married, and the series has thus far only done
it once (Kendra) and is not
likely to do so again.
Have questions, comments, additions? Drop me a line!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
R Shaw
<uisg...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Okay, I'm working on the first draft of a Buffy "Mary Sue Litmus Test"
>and could use some feedback from other writers/fanfic readers.
>
>I'm going to try and cut and paste, but if that doesn't work, you cna
>find the formatted HTMl page at
>http://ljc.simplenet.com/buffy_litmus.html
>
Nice list of things to avoid.
Naming your hero after yourself is also bad, it simply lacks imagination.
The hero should have no useful magical objects.
Magical swords, rings etc are exceedingly rare in the Buffyverse.
They won't be in the hands of normal people. Having more than
one should attract extra penalty points. It's an easy way to make
the hero too powerful.
Genuine legendary objects like Excalibur, the Holy Grail, the
Spear of Longinnius (which pierced Jesus), the Tarnhelm,
Mjollnir should be reserved for Buffy or their original users.
Even Buffy might be unworthy to touch the Grail.
(Useless cursed objects are acceptable as mcguffins.
If your grandfather's portrait eats people asking Buffy
for help is quite reasonable, if you know her.)
If they have more than one special attribute the hero
should get more penalty points. A witch is reasonable,
if they don't meet too many other of the criteria.
An immortal werewolf witch is too much.
Crossovers need extra care. The hero shouldn't
know the major characters of both universes.
Crossovers between more than 2 universes are
best avoided.
If one of the Scoobies is written completely out
of character, serving as a authorial mouthpiece
they can function as a Mary-Sue too. If Willow
suddenly fulfils all the items on the list that would
be quite implausible.
---
Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort
Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first.
That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.
Robert
Kate Bolin
robx...@aol.com (R Shaw) wrote:
> In article <8dkqii$vsc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tara LJC O'Shea
> <uisg...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> >Okay, I'm working on the first draft of a Buffy "Mary Sue Litmus Test"
> >and could use some feedback from other writers/fanfic readers.
>
> If one of the Scoobies is written completely out
> of character, serving as a authorial mouthpiece
> they can function as a Mary-Sue too. If Willow
> suddenly fulfils all the items on the list that would
> be quite implausible.
>
Curse of the Willow Sue! She can do all, be all, have magical hair and
special powers, research with Giles, comfort Xander, save Buffy, and still
manage to make it home in time for a hot night of lurrrrve with Spike.
Vampires tremble before her pure heart and dazzling smile and never ever
kill her, because who would want to hurt Willow?
And y'all think I'm kidding, don't you?
http://www.dymphna.net/research/characters.html
Oh yeah, I still think Marti Noxon does it too.
Kate
go on. try me. ;)
--
"People said we were evil but they missed the point again.
It was just high spirits." - Girl, "Kill Your Boyfriend"
Kate Bolin | ICQ: 3326944 | dymphna-...@egroups.com
Dymph-No-Mania: http://www.dymphna.net | dym...@ametro.net
The Reverend Dharma Roadkill
OK, I'll take the test with a character called Mutant, who I
have written about but mostly fantasied about (life? what
life?):
* Slayer and/or Vampire (add 2 points if she's a vampire/soul)
Species undetermined: similar to half-demon. Calls
himself "human. mostly human. ok, two-thirds human. shit, I
don't know." Lets give him one-half a point
* Is a descendant of a Slayer or was made a vampire by Angelus,
Spike, or Drusilla
No, no, no. Zero points.
* Is connected to a series regular, either through familial or
psuedo-familial ties or through a romantic relationship
Hhmmm. Faith's lover. Is she a series regular? Let's say
yes. One point. Of course, this makes him even less
trustworthy in the eyes of the rest of the gang.
* Rules that apply to others are bent or broken for her
Not quite. Interpol would like to connect him with some serious
offending. Hong Kong officials would like to talk with him.
Indonesian and Malaysian officials are way beyond the talking
stage; they want his ass. Uses aliases and false documents on a
regular basis. Is not above using violence and/or magick to
escape custody or destroy evidence. Has avoided breaking the
local laws (except for the above) for the last few years. Zero
points.
* Is often maverick or unconventional, even compared to Buffy
and/or Faith
Arrg. Got him. One point. Actually obeys the law (most of the
time, recently), but don't even start on the
word 'unconventional'.
* Is able to accomplish something single-handedly that the
entire Scooby Gang ...
Yes and no. He can do it. But the scoobies wouldn't even want
to do the stuff he does. Very "operatic". Half point. He
isn't a superhero, more of a "supersemiantihero". But this is
Faith's rightful territory. I'll stick with a half point, but
acknowledge that it could go higher.
* Excels at everything she turns her hand to or conversely,
fails at everything she turns her hand to, but is forgiven
No, and no, but is on the whole more competent than your average
person. Forgiven? Not yet! I'll go with zero points here.
* Is unusually physically attractive
No. Faith still thinks he's funny looking. Many people find
him creepy and/or unattractive. Zero points.
* Unusual eye colour (violet, amber, etc.)
Very dark brown, almost black, but within normal human range.
Zero points.
* Her hair is mentioned repeatedly (down to her waist, fell in
blue-black waves, etc.)
Curly black, rarely mentioned. Zero points.
* Is immediately accepted into Scooby Gang without question or
must prove her worthiness
Oh ha ha. Being Faith's lover is a definate negative. Having
criminal connections in one's past doesn't help either. Having
magickal/demonic present-day connections just about kills it.
May be eventually accepted by one or two members of the scoobies
but most will avoid being in the room alone with him for the
forseeable future. The team will rely on him on a "desperation
only" basis. Faith initially trusted him out of sheer
desperation. Zero points.
* Is more Scooby than Scooby. (i.e., Is a better hacker than
Willow, a better witch than Tara,
as good or better hand-to-hand combatant as a Slayer, has more
rare books than Giles, more
occult connections than Willy the Snitch, etc.)
Ouch. Good this is only for one point. Buffy could kick his
ass most of the time but Faith might have trouble. Could kick
Angel's ass. As for the other abilities, don't even go there.
One point.
* Has uncanny or supernatural abilities and skills (i.e., a
witch, a demon, a werewolf, gets
visions, etc.)
Ouch. One point.
* Is unusually accomplished for her age (is an 18 year old
Watcher, 16 year old member of the
Initiative, etc.)
Age undetermined. Mortal but ages slowly. Zero points.
* Is miraculously spared by every vampire she meets, rather than
immediately turned into snackfood
Miraculously? No, extreme violence is involved. Zero points.
* Has a particularly traumatic past
No. Has many regrets but not the angsty brooding type. Nice
childhood, still on good terms with family. Parents and
siblings all still alive and healthy. Rarely visits them out of
concern for their safety. Sleeps well most nights/days. Zero
points.
* Is universally liked and/or respected
No. However, most people who know him have a strong opinion
about him, either positive or negative. Zero points.
* Has an excellent singing voice
Raspy, rough voice that many people find unpleasant. Can carry
a tune, but not gifted here. Zero points.
* Shares a hobby or passion with a slayer/vampire/watcher/scooby
Does sex count? Has similar interests to Willow, Giles and
Joyce (art ... collecting, he paints but has no particular
talent, even he knows his paintings are garage sale material)
but none of these people particularly like or trust him. Zero
points.
* Dies a heroic death and is mourned by all
Oh please. No death as yet, and half of the characters would be
relieved. Zero points.
By my addition he gets five points, but could go higher on
argument. Barely passes. If the jack-of-all-trades question
allowed a point for each skill, he'd blow it. I'll cut him (and
myself) some slack since the scooby gang will never completely
accept him. He hangs out with Faith and some old friends
instead.
The poll is slanted against (in favor of?) characters with an
anti-hero streak. But I've had fun with it. Thanks.
The Reverend Dharma Roadkill
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Okay, I'm working on the first draft of a Buffy "Mary Sue Litmus Test"
: and could use some feedback from other writers/fanfic readers.
: How to read your character's score:
: 0-5 Pass
: 6-10 Needs work
: 11-15 Needs major work
: 16-20 Beyond help
To test a point I argue in an essay on my website, I checked your criteria
against the Doctor in my DOCTOR WHO/BUFFY crossovers.
Scored 7.
The essay on question is at:
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/xovers.htm
--
Paul Gadzikowski http://members.iglou.com/scarfman: King Arthur in Time
and Space - The Daily Cartoons - DOCTOR WHO, STAR TREK,
scar...@iglou.com BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER, M*A*S*H - Archy the
Cockroach - New cartoons weekly
M. Scott Eiland
<snip>
>* Is universally liked and/or respected
> No one person is a seen as a saint by everyone. Even among less than a
>dozen people, there will be
> members of the gang who don't get along, or do but with some tension or
>even apathy. After all,
> Cordelia wasn't Willow's bestest bud. Willow isn't exactly bonding with
>Anya. And Xander isn't
> shooting hoops with Riley.
He might. . .but only as an excuse to shoot the breeze about all matters Buffy.
. .and Riley would win, hands down.
http://www.crosswinds.net/~pashao/buffy/altfic/eiland-scenes_on_a_basketba
ll_court.htm
Thanks for the test. . .I'll keep the elements in mind. . .the only important
character I've created for one of my stories is Alyssa, the Immortal Slayer,
who rates a 4 under the listed criteria (Slayer, Immortal, unusually physically
attractive, particularly traumatic past). Not bad, considering "Eternal
Slayer" was my first fanfic. . .:-)
M. Scott Eiland
"If the cultivation of understanding consists in one thing more than another,
it is surely in learning the grounds of one's own opinions."- Mill
"Nothing hath an uglier look to us than reason, when it is not on our side."-
Halifax
Rose
"needs work."
To fix the problem, all I need to do is cut the hair mentions from two to one.
Then it scores five, and viola! No more Mary William Sue.
However, the "unusually good looking" part isn't quite fair to include, I
suppose, since William is based on an already established character. So maybe
there is already a score of 5 and William is okay as he is, hair mentions
notwithstanding. ;)
************************************************
ROSE, amateur slayer
American Beauty...blech. But congratulations, Matrix!
Tara LJC O'Shea
http://ljc.simplenet.com/angel/
I guess the feedback I'm looking for isn't so much "did your character
pass" as:
Do you think this is a useful tool for writers?
Do you think that it's comprehensive, and realistic?
Do you think it's fair?
Do you think some points c be argued, or do you think some points (and
their explanations) need to be expanded?
What Mary Sue characteristics do you think should be added?
What suggestions would you make to writers to help them turn their Mary
Sues into characters that DON'T set your teeth on edge?
etc.
LJC
H.G.Hettinger
<uisg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Okay, I moved the test (and the faq) to:
>
>http://ljc.simplenet.com/angel/
>
>I guess the feedback I'm looking for isn't so much "did your character
>pass" as:
>
>Do you think this is a useful tool for writers?
Yes. Though I doubt that any of the writers that really should read
it (and would profit from it) will actually read it (or realize that
it might apply to them), but if it helps to cut down on the 'whishful
dream fulfillment fics' its well worth the time you put into it, imho.
>
>Do you think that it's comprehensive, and realistic?
Not sure about comprehesive, but I think it's pretty realistic.
>
>Do you think it's fair?
I can get pretty snarky and impatient when it comes to Mary-Sue fic,
so I'm not the person to ask. ;-)
>
>Do you think some points c be argued, or do you think some points (and
>their explanations) need to be expanded?
I think that the hair comment should be expanded to cover repeated
mention of good looks for male characters (which generally don't get
that much attention devoted to their hair specifically), both
concerning the face or the body build.
You might also mention especially graceful movement along with
stunning looks (or an irresitible aura).
>
>What Mary Sue characteristics do you think should be added?
New character comes between an established pair, or gets to comfort a
recently bereaved or succor a physically hurt character (often
evolving into a romance or at least sex).
Can be in the form of an old flame showing up, or a girl instantly
snagging any of the guys on the show - or worse - have them fighting
over her, or a boy showing up and instantly winning Buffy's heart,
making her realize just what a scumball Angel has been all along (this
last also applies for a lot - though certainly not all - of the fics
where Xander finally wins Buffy, or Willow hooks up with Angel or any
other variation there of - where either Xander or Willow become a
Mary-Sue. Seems especially true for a lot of the Willow fics I've
seen.)
Any new character getting to sleep (or smooch) with one (or more) of
the established characters should be a Mary-Sue flag worth at least
two points imho.
Any invented character taking a central role in the story equal to or
greater than the characters from the show being used should be another
flag, I think.
>
>What suggestions would you make to writers to help them turn their Mary
>Sues into characters that DON'T set your teeth on edge?
Think in terms of story plot first. What is the point of your story?
What possibilites do you want to explore with it? Why?
Any character you invent should be there to advance and serve the plot
and if it is relegated to a minor role, that will reduce the risk of
it taking over the story the way a lot of Mary-Sues tend to do.
Most people read fanfic because they want to read about the characters
on the show, not about someone's personal fantasies (unless they
happen to match their own fantasies, in which case they simply put
themselves in the place of the Mary-Sue and absolutely love those
stories). So try and keep the characters from the show as close to the
characters as they have been written on the show as you can.
Of course everyone's reading on the characters is bound to differ to
some degree.
Which is one thing that makes fanfic interesting to read (to me),
since it can give you a better understanding of the characters, make
you look at them in a different way, or at least give you a better
understanding of how others see a certain character and why.
hgh
Rose
I think the hair issue shouldn't be on the list. You've already got it covered
with the "exceptional beauty" item. Hair is a way of describing a character,
as is eye color, height, weight, clothing, etc.
My one other nitpick is with the "demonl character" item. As an example I made
an original character a demon as a way of bending over backwards to avoid
creating a Mary Sue. I can see that, say, a high school boy with the power of
ESP could be a Mary Sue...but a character who happens to be a demon or a
vampire in a fanfic based on a show about demons and vampires shouldn't be
discouraged, and might be less likely to have Mary Sue qualities than an
ordinary human or a human with supernatural talent.
************************************************
ROSE
"This is the noise that keeps me awake." -- Garbage
Fanfic stored under penname Rosa Seravo, http://www.fanfiction.net
Dalton Spence
> > If one of the Scoobies is written completely out
> > of character, serving as a authorial mouthpiece
> > they can function as a Mary-Sue too. If Willow
> > suddenly fulfils all the items on the list that would
> > be quite implausible.
> Curse of the Willow Sue! She can do all, be all, have magical hair and
> special powers, research with Giles, comfort Xander, save Buffy, and still
> manage to make it home in time for a hot night of lurrrrve with Spike.
> Vampires tremble before her pure heart and dazzling smile and never ever
> kill her, because who would want to hurt Willow?
Ah, I see you subscribe to the willfic mailing list too. Even given
the topical direction of the list, far too many of the stories delve
deep into Willow-Sue territory. (Which is partially understandable,
since Willow and Xander were in essence *canonical* Mary Sue's built
into the show from the beginning to let the audience relate.) This
would be bad enough, but a recent trend in Willow oriented stories
has me even more worried; the Buffy-Bitch syndrome.
While I admit Buffy is far from perfect, according to these authors
her ego just couldn't stand the strain of an uber-talented Willow
showing her up (particularly if Willow starts a relationship with
Angel), and would readily abandon and even betray their friendship
at the first sign she might not be in control. This is *NOT* the
Willow- Buffy dynamic as displayed on the show; even if they aren't
as close as they used to be (thanks largely to Tara), I've seen no
evidence that Buffy feels in any way threatened by Willow's growing
power and independence or new friendship. (Maybe she *should* be.)
--
@==================================================@
| Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton...@hwcn.org> |
| Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
| Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
| Cordelia: Are you still...grrrr? |
|Angel: Yeah, there's not actually a cure for that.|
| Zonker swallows Han Solo and your wealthy yak. |
| FNORD! |
@==================================================@
Tara LJC O'Shea
hett...@bigfoot.com (H.G.Hettinger) wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:51:57 GMT, Tara LJC O'Shea
> <uisg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >What suggestions would you make to writers to help them turn their Mary
> >Sues into characters that DON'T set your teeth on edge?
>
> Think in terms of story plot first. What is the point of your story?
> What possibilites do you want to explore with it? Why?
Actually, this and other tips for betetr writing are covered in the "fan
fiction faq":
http://ljc.simplenet.com/angel/buffy_faql.html
LJC
Tara LJC O'Shea
fyl...@aol.compliant (Rose) wrote:
> Okay, here's my feedback.
>
> I think the hair issue shouldn't be on the list. You've already got it covered
> with the "exceptional beauty" item. Hair is a way of describing a character,
> as is eye color, height, weight, clothing, etc.
Which is why I suggest that if her (or his) hair is mentioned repeatedly,
you cut all but one mention. You shouldn't need to describe the person
over and over again, and for some reason, hair is what seems to be a
major Mary Sue identifier as opposed to eyes (unless, of course, her eyes
are violet, or silver, or amber, etc...)
>.but a character who happens to be a demon or a
> vampire in a fanfic based on a show about demons and vampires shouldn't be
> discouraged, and might be less likely to have Mary Sue qualities than an
> ordinary human or a human with supernatural talent.
One of the points of the test is to point out that while a few of these
characterstics does not make your character a "Mary Sue", it's the
combination of many of the exteme character traits that *does* mean you
might be in trouble.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have demons and vampries in a story about a
Vampire Slayer.
But if you have a supernatural character with violet eyes who is a former
lover of Angel's, was made a vampire when she was 15, and is an expert
computer hacker, then you know you're in trouble.
Rose
>
>While I admit Buffy is far from perfect, according to these authors
>her ego just couldn't stand the strain of an uber-talented Willow
>showing her up (particularly if Willow starts a relationship with
>Angel), and would readily abandon and even betray their friendship
>at the first sign she might not be in control. This is *NOT* the
>Willow- Buffy dynamic as displayed on the show; even if they aren't
>as close as they used to be
But isn't the whole point of fanfiction, writing the characters as you see them
or as you'd like to see them? Spike and Xander are not having an affair on the
show. Neither are Buffy and Jonathan. But there is fanfic about these
couples, and why not?
I guess the question is why. Why do people write Willow as a Mary Sue? Why do
they write Buffy as a bitch who doesn't appreciate her? Perhaps they identify
with Willow. Perhaps Buffy reminds them of someone they don't like. Perhaps
writing the characters this way is cathartic for them.
I hate reading stories where Giles is depicted as a molester of teenagers and
as a sexual sadist but if people want to write about him that way, I guess
that's what they see. I actually used to see a bit of creepiness in Giles
myself though I like him now.
Yahtzee63
them
or as you'd like to see them? Spike and Xander are not having an affair on the
show. Neither are Buffy and Jonathan. But there is fanfic about these
couples, and why not?<<
Well, the whole point of fanfiction is writing the characters. Of course we all
write because we want to see someone, say Spike, doing something he hasn't done
on the show -- sleeping with Willow, sleeping with Angel, performing in a road
show of "Cats." But if we as writers haven't actually captured Spike's
personality and motivations, then the story fails. (At least, it does for me as
a reader and an author.)
Are Mary Sues cathartic? Sure. So if you want to write one as some kind of
exercise, have at it. But why subject it on an unsuspecting public? The reason
people DO post this stuff is because they're projecting their own emotions so
strongly on the characters that they've lost sight of the characters.
Take this one fic I read; I don't remember the author, but I don't mean any
offense. In this fic, Angel and Willow began a romance. Well, it could happen.
But why did it happen in THIS story? Because Oz and Buffy were having an
affair. The writer never bothered to explain why Oz (who, when not in the grip
of werewolfy animal lusts, was the most devoted of boyfriends) and Buffy (who
spent a good two and a half years deeply in love with Angel) had struck up this
affair, why they were sneaking around instead of dealing with it
straightforwardly, or -- most importantly -- why Angel (who has REALLY good
reasons not to be too spontaneous with sex) and Willow (not the most sexually
promiscuous woman on Earth) decided to respond to this affair by starting their
own the night after the traumatic discovery.
I'm digressing here, but my point is that, whatever activity you want the
characters to be engaged in, you as a writer have the responsibility of making
that action flow from the character. If you can't think of a motivation that
really explains why the character is doing what he or she is doing in that
story, then maybe you need to rethink.
And if you see a character very differently from the way most people do, then
make other people see them that way too. Don't just TELL us that, really,
Spike's an old softie, or Giles is an alcoholic, or Willow loathes Buffy. SHOW
us -- back it up with the evidence that made you feel that way in the first
place, and with new examples that flesh out this view of the character. I could
envision stories that dealt with all three of the above examples realistically
and plausibly. (Well, maybe not Spike the softie. But never say never.)
My basic point is that fanfic is, first and foremost, writing about a
pre-existing character. So do justice to the characters you love.
Amy
James Fox
>Okay, here's my feedback.
>My one other nitpick is with the "demonl character" item. As an example I
made
>an original character a demon as a way of bending over backwards to avoid
>creating a Mary Sue. I can see that, say, a high school boy with the power
of
>vampire in a fanfic based on a show about demons and vampires shouldn't be
>discouraged, and might be less likely to have Mary Sue qualities than an
>ordinary human or a human with supernatural talent.
I disagree. A prime marking characteristic of a 'Mary Sue' or it's male
equivalent is that they are 'special'. That's why unusual eye color is a
high indication of such a character type. The more a character is a 'Mary
Sue Type', the more exceptional/unusual, both in abilities and physical
attributes, they are. In a show like Buffy (and even in shows where this is
not the case), where there is the option, making a character supernatural is
an easy way of making him/her/it unique, and adds to the possibility of it
being a 'Mary Sue Type' (MST).
In short, if a new character happens to be a 'good vampire' or a 'good
demon' (or even not so good, as long as the character is not *bad*), I
immediatly start to worry, since a 'good vampire' or a 'good demon' is, in
my opinion, quite likely to be a MST character, or a tacky plot gimmick.
James Fox
Rose
>In short, if a new character happens to be a 'good vampire' or a 'good
>demon' (or even not so good, as long as the character is not *bad*), I
>immediatly start to worry, since a 'good vampire' or a 'good demon' is, in
>my opinion, quite likely to be a MST character, or a tacky plot gimmick.
>
>James Fox
Fair enough. Guess I better throw "The Lion and the Lamb" on the scrap heap,
as it has a demon character who isn't entirely bad. :^ Sigh. I wish I had
known the rules in advance. <g>
No, I know these aren't "rules", and that some guidelines are useful for
avoiding MS characters. Still, all of this analysis seems to take some of the
fun out of writing fanfiction. Which is pretty much supposed to be fun, right?
H.G.Hettinger
>>
>>In short, if a new character happens to be a 'good vampire' or a 'good
>>demon' (or even not so good, as long as the character is not *bad*), I
>>immediatly start to worry, since a 'good vampire' or a 'good demon' is, in
>>my opinion, quite likely to be a MST character, or a tacky plot gimmick.
>>
>>James Fox
>
>Fair enough. Guess I better throw "The Lion and the Lamb" on the scrap heap,
>as it has a demon character who isn't entirely bad. :^ Sigh. I wish I had
>known the rules in advance. <g>
>
>No, I know these aren't "rules", and that some guidelines are useful for
>avoiding MS characters. Still, all of this analysis seems to take some of the
>fun out of writing fanfiction. Which is pretty much supposed to be fun, right?
Yeah, but your demon character in the Lion and the Lamb (if I remember
correctly wasn't either that important nor that beautiful. And its
interactions directly with the main characters (Spike and Buffy) were
pretty limited, so I think that it was more of a McGuffin to get Spike
and Buffy to do what you wanted them to do, than a Mary-Sue.
And I don't think the same rules apply for McGuffins (though for all I
know there is some litmus test out there somewhere that lets you rate
your McGuffins as well).
For it to be a Mary-Sue you have to meet quite a number of the above
criteria, and even then it doesn't necessarily mean that your
character *is* a Mary-Sue, only that it might be.
hgh
Tara LJC O'Shea
fyl...@aol.compliant (Rose) wrote:
> Still, all of this analysis seems to take
some of the
> fun out of writing fanfiction. Which is pretty much supposed to be
fun, right?
erm....
I don't know quite how to answer that one. Certainly I enjoy writing
enormously, and I do find it "fun", but I also enjoy it specifically
because of the vast amounts of hard work that goes into making a story
the very best work I am capable of producing. So for me, the
anylysis--and by extension, the hard work--in no way diminishes the
enjoyment. In fact, it is a large part of why I write. I want to produce
a story that is as good as if not better than the source material, that
in addition to being good fanfic, is also good *fiction*. I'm a junkie.
I want to tell stories that people want to read, and that satisfy me as
well as my audience. And I am not easily satisfied....
I write becasue I can't *not* write. And I write about writing in the
hopes of sharing my experience with others, and encouraging fan writers
to put in the work that helps them improve their craft, and in the end
hopefully give the fandom better stories to read, and make the writers
into better writers.
I'm aware that there are two types of fan writers, particularly on-line
(as opposed to fanzines); namely, those who write because they are
writers, and those who write as a social activity. However, regardless
of the motivations for writing, the work itself is judged by the same
standard. There are not seperate rules for fiction written as a social
activity. And I'm always hoping that regardless of one's motives for
writing, all writers will realise how much *more* they enjoy writing
when they take the time to improve their craft and the quality fo their
work.
I actually expound on this in depth in the Fanfic FAQ, if you're
interesting in reading my thoughts:
http://ljc.simplenet.com/angel/buffy_faql.html
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: On 24 Apr 2000 19:16:27 GMT, fyl...@aol.compliant (Rose) wrote:
: >Fair enough. Guess I better throw "The Lion and the Lamb" on the scrap heap,
: >as it has a demon character who isn't entirely bad. :^ Sigh. I wish I had
: >known the rules in advance. <g>
: correctly wasn't either that important nor that beautiful. And its
: interactions directly with the main characters (Spike and Buffy) were
: pretty limited, so I think that it was more of a McGuffin to get Spike
: and Buffy to do what you wanted them to do, than a Mary-Sue.
A character who doesn't steal the story from the stars whom the fanfiction
is nominally about almost certainly isn't a Mary Sue, even if s/he is an
obvious author insertion.
Rose
>From: hett...@bigfoot.com (H.G.Hettinger)
>Date: 4/24/2000 1:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3904b03a...@nntp.digitalexp.com>
>
>On 24 Apr 2000 19:16:27 GMT, fyl...@aol.compliant (Rose) wrote:
>
>>>
>>>demon' (or even not so good, as long as the character is not *bad*), I
>>>immediatly start to worry, since a 'good vampire' or a 'good demon' is, in
>>>my opinion, quite likely to be a MST character, or a tacky plot gimmick.
>>>
>>>James Fox
>>
>heap,
>>as it has a demon character who isn't entirely bad. :^ Sigh. I wish I had
>>known the rules in advance. <g>
>>
>the
>>fun out of writing fanfiction. Which is pretty much supposed to be fun,
>right?
>
>correctly wasn't either that important nor that beautiful. And its
>interactions directly with the main characters (Spike and Buffy) were
>pretty limited, so I think that it was more of a McGuffin to get Spike
>and Buffy to do what you wanted them to do, than a Mary-Sue.
>
Yeah, I was just foolin' around. BTW what is a McGuffin?
>And I don't think the same rules apply for McGuffins (though for all I
>know there is some litmus test out there somewhere that lets you rate
>your McGuffins as well).
>
>For it to be a Mary-Sue you have to meet quite a number of the above
>criteria, and even then it doesn't necessarily mean that your
>character *is* a Mary-Sue, only that it might be.
>
>hgh
>
I guess my feeling is that the behavior and role of the character is key, and
not the magical properties or appearance of the character. But then I am
relatively new to this, maybe I'd think differently if I'd read and written
more fanfiction.
yasm...@my-deja.com
Rose wrote:
>
> >
> >In short, if a new character happens to be a 'good vampire' or a 'good
> >demon' (or even not so good, as long as the character is not *bad*), I
> >immediatly start to worry, since a 'good vampire' or a 'good demon' is, in
> >my opinion, quite likely to be a MST character, or a tacky plot gimmick.
> >
> >James Fox
>
> Fair enough. Guess I better throw "The Lion and the Lamb" on the scrap heap,
> as it has a demon character who isn't entirely bad. :^ Sigh. I wish I had
> known the rules in advance. <g>
>
> No, I know these aren't "rules", and that some guidelines are useful for
> avoiding MS characters. Still, all of this analysis seems to take some of the
> fun out of writing fanfiction. Which is pretty much supposed to be fun, right?
One of the "rules" I was taught in my creative writing course was that
"good novels never start with a 'There was...' sentence." At the time
one of my favourite books was _The Odessa Files_ which starts out...
No, _The Odessa Files_ will never go down in the canon of literature,
but I enjoy it. (My teacher hated me for that example...)
Unless you plan on making a living from your writing, then it should
serve a purpose for you as the creator. If you derive enjoyment from
your fanfiction, then it has served its purpose. I find that anytime
*I* write fiction (fanfiction or any other fiction) it is either as a
creative or cathartic outlet.
Before I get off my soapbox, these are just guidelines to help you
improve your writing. As such, you can take them or leave them. Some
people like James Joyce's works, some don't...
<off soapbox>
Jennifer
H.G.Hettinger
>>Subject: Re: Buffy Mary Sue Litmus Test...
>>From: hett...@bigfoot.com (H.G.Hettinger)
>>Date: 4/24/2000 1:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <3904b03a...@nntp.digitalexp.com>
>>
>>
>>Yeah, but your demon character in the Lion and the Lamb (if I remember
>>correctly wasn't either that important nor that beautiful. And its
>>interactions directly with the main characters (Spike and Buffy) were
>>pretty limited, so I think that it was more of a McGuffin to get Spike
>>and Buffy to do what you wanted them to do, than a Mary-Sue.
>>
>
>Yeah, I was just foolin' around. BTW what is a McGuffin?
Generally its some knid of magical artifact, or neat mechanical
contraption ala the Gem of Amarra.
>
>>And I don't think the same rules apply for McGuffins (though for all I
>>know there is some litmus test out there somewhere that lets you rate
>>your McGuffins as well).
>>
>>For it to be a Mary-Sue you have to meet quite a number of the above
>>criteria, and even then it doesn't necessarily mean that your
>>character *is* a Mary-Sue, only that it might be.
>>
>>hgh
>>
>
>I guess my feeling is that the behavior and role of the character is key, and
>not the magical properties or appearance of the character. But then I am
>relatively new to this, maybe I'd think differently if I'd read and written
>more fanfiction.
You don't have to write more fanfic, just read enough of it, and
you'll come across all kinds of stories, where the newly created
character is clearly only there to live out the author's wildest
fantasies.
Some are written well enough to still be readable, a few are good
enough to be interesting and even enjoyable, but the big majority of
them are... well, lets just say that I think they would be pretty
effective as a torture device. :-)
Most times they won't let such a little thing as story logic stand in
their way, and don't see nothing wrong in making everyone act so far
out of character that you wouldn't be able to recognize any of them if
it wasn't for the names and descriptions.
Some of the stories are so bad that I actually finished reading them
with a feeling of fascinated horror and disbelief at the turns the
story was taking next. They can have the same kind of appeal that
some truely awful movie can have - being so bad that they are almost
fun again.
hgh
R Shaw
(H.G.Hettinger) writes:
>>Yeah, I was just foolin' around. BTW what is a McGuffin?
>
>Generally its some knid of magical artifact, or neat mechanical
>contraption ala the Gem of Amarra.
The term was invented by Hitchcock. The maltese falcon
is one example. If it's actually used in the story it's not
a McGuffin.
It's the thing everyone is looking for, but it doesn't actually
matter what it is. They are common in thrillers and useful
in driving plots. Everyone hunts the McGuffin (secret papers,
a missing will, a stolen painting, the map showing the buried
treasure) but the story ends when someone finds it. The
story is about the hunt, and the fights along the way, not
about the McGuffin.
James Fox
Rose wrote in message <20000424151627...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
>>
>>In short, if a new character happens to be a 'good vampire' or a 'good
>>demon' (or even not so good, as long as the character is not *bad*), I
>>immediatly start to worry, since a 'good vampire' or a 'good demon' is, in
>>my opinion, quite likely to be a MST character, or a tacky plot gimmick.
>>
>>James Fox
>
>Fair enough. Guess I better throw "The Lion and the Lamb" on the scrap
>heap, as it has a demon character who isn't entirely bad. :^ Sigh. I
wish
>I had known the rules in advance. <g>
There are a few other danger signs that I also use. Such a character must be
the central character of the story, for one.
>
>No, I know these aren't "rules", and that some guidelines are useful for
>avoiding MS characters. Still, all of this analysis seems to take some of
>the fun out of writing fanfiction. Which is pretty much supposed to be
fun,
>right?
Well, my comments are not about the fun of writing, but the fun of
*reading*. *You* can write whatever you want, but If you want to
publish/post something that a large number of critical readers will like to
read, it would do well for you to take note of the *things to avoid*, like
Mary Sue's, that writers and readers have written down.
James Fox
li...@crosswinds.net
> her ego just couldn't stand the strain of an uber-talented Willow
> showing her up (particularly if Willow starts a relationship with
> Angel), and would readily abandon and even betray their friendship
> at the first sign she might not be in control. This is *NOT* the
> Willow- Buffy dynamic as displayed on the show; even if they aren't
> evidence that Buffy feels in any way threatened by Willow's growing
> power and independence or new friendship. (Maybe she *should* be.)
>
You know, I love writing Willow fic...but if I read one more story about
how wonderful Willow is and how shallow and bitchy Buffy is, I think I
will scream! Whatever happened to keeping the characters close to
who and what they really are?
Grrr....
Lisa
who's had it up to here with Buffy-bashing on the Willow front and
Willow bashing on the Buffy front!
> --
> @==================================================@
> | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton...@hwcn.org> |
> | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
> | Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
> | Cordelia: Are you still...grrrr? |
> |Angel: Yeah, there's not actually a cure for that.|
> | Zonker swallows Han Solo and your wealthy yak. |
> | FNORD! |
> @==================================================@
>
li...@crosswinds.net
> and could use some feedback from other writers/fanfic readers.
>
a Buffy-orientated one--I decided to give it a try with my OFC (that's
what they call original characters in Highlander) Mike Evans and came
out okay.In some tests, I get a point because of her unusual name or
nickname. Mike is short for Michelle. In this test, I get a mention
for mentioning her hair more than once.
So, one point for over 600kb worth of print, not too shabby, eh?
Lisa
li...@crosswinds.net
> <uisg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
One thing I think that you should take into consideration with this is
that it really doesn't matter if a character is a mary-sue, if she or he
is written well. If the character is well-rounded, has faults as well
as positive traits, is human enough to that she or he can be related
to--its a moot point. Some of the best fics I've read have had OFC or
OMC in them...and it really didn't matter if they starred in their own
prophecy...that they slept with central characters...um that they had
unique traits or tragics pasts, if the story and the character is well
rounded and sound.
I can think of more than a few Highlander stories and series that have
OFC's that I love...Sher from the Master of Deception series written by
Amanda-r is the one that I can remember on the top of my head. Sher is
pretty, has a tragic past, became an Immortal through strange
means...had been dying AIDS before her Immortality kicked in. I could
go on, but that's not the point. When you set up a list of what is good
and what is bad, you're not taking into consideration what happens if
it's written well. Then, a lot of those red-flags go down the drain.
It's the same reason horror, fantasy and science fiction works in the
first place--if the story is good and the characters realistic and you
find that you care and love them...you can suspend your belief and let
the story take you away.
Granted with Buffyfic, it's a bit harder to find well-written, good
fic--especially with OCs, because a lot of the writers are so young that
they're just learning how to weave a decent story. They fall back on
all the cliches in order to just to write something at all. If you
manage to find some writers that are older and more mature, you can find
the good fic as well--OCs or not. Lily by Laure Alexander is the first
one to come to mind. Bec, who's now writing Roswell fic, she wrote a
wonderful Buffy story called, The Gift - its posted on
http://pages.prodigy.net/leighschneider/watcher_fanfic.htm - it's a
Spikefic, and has an OC in it. But it doesn't matter, because it's so
well written.
And not to brag and also aware that some people might not like my
series, I've been told that no matter how Mary-Sue Mike Evans is
initially, you find out real quick that she isn't. My Serendipity
stories are posted on my page at
http://www.crosswinds.net/~lisay/seren-series.htm .
I just had to make this point, because while everyone should be wary of
their own original characters, I also would hate to find out that
someone is deterred from creating a beautiful story just because they
have an OC in it. As writers, whether it be fanfic or original fic,
your characters have to be well-rounded and learning how to do that in
fanfic may give you heads up if you ever decide to try your hand at
writing original works.
Tara LJC O'Shea
li...@crosswinds.net wrote:
> In article <8dkqii$vsc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> In some tests, I get a point because of her unusual name or
> nickname.
Thanks for reminding me to put the name question back in *grin*. I took
it out to make room for other questions.
LJC
Kate Bolin
> Lisa
> who's had it up to here with Buffy-bashing on the Willow front and
> Willow bashing on the Buffy front!
What about the Buffy and Willow bashing on the Faith front? ;)
Kate
who actually pretty much hates *all* the characters. Or loves them.
She's not sure which.
--
"People said we were evil but they missed the point again.
It was just high spirits." - Girl, "Kill Your Boyfriend"
Kate Bolin | ICQ: 3326944 | dymphna-...@egroups.com
Dymph-No-Mania: http://www.dymphna.net | dym...@ametro.net
James Fox
<snip>
>You know, I love writing Willow fic...but if I read one more story about
>how wonderful Willow is and how shallow and bitchy Buffy is, I think I
>will scream! Whatever happened to keeping the characters close to
>who and what they really are?
It eroded away a long time ago...as *your* stories amply demonstrate. As I
recall, it was your Serendipity Series that first made me concious of the
terrible twisting of Spike's character (as a phenomenon) that has made a
large chunk of the stories started after the end of the second season all
but unreadable to me (yours included).
I just had to point that out.
<snip>
James Fox
lisay
how Spike changed as well...I gave good reasons, sound--as far as I'm
concerned. It all depends on your interpretations of a character. Up
until he showed up in Harsh Light of Day in this season, everything I
wrote could've happened. He was changing. If Joss had decided to
follow-up what he set up in motion during the second season,
Serendipity wouldn't be considered that off the mark. And you also
have to consider I did start Serendipity the summer after Becoming II.
And last but not least, in the Serendipity universe, Spike has a
soul.
So, before you start lambashing me about how I masacred the character
Spike, take a good and hard look at the last half of season 2. Spike
was changing. And up until this season, I don't consider any kind
creative interpretations on my part to be that off the mark. Now,
I'll admit, I just write non-canonical Spike because I don't agree
with Joss on where he decided to take the character.
Lisa
Yahtzee63
> Willow- Buffy dynamic as displayed on the show; even if they aren't
> as close as they used to be (thanks largely to Tara), I've seen no
> evidence that Buffy feels in any way threatened by Willow's growing
> power and independence or new friendship.<<
Thanks largely to Tara? I haven't seen one bit of evidence that Tara has tried
to come between Buffy and her friends; in fact, Tara's actually questioned why
Willow doesn't bring her into the group more. (Or didn't bring her in more --
she does so more and more.) I think Buffy and Willow are more separate right
now because Buffy fell in love and Willow is falling in love. In the short
term, concentrating on the significant other is perfectly normal; the
separation is just stretching on a bit too long. It could turn into a real
problem -- or they could regain their old closeness fairly quickly. I don't
think Buffy, Willow and Tara have done anything *wrong.*
Amy, who thinks all make-one-character-right-by-making-other-characters-wrong
fic has serious problems
paradoxymoron
>In article <20000420160208...@ng-fm1.aol.com>,
> fyl...@aol.compliant (Rose) wrote:
>> Okay, here's my feedback.
>>
>> I think the hair issue shouldn't be on the list. You've already got it covered
>> with the "exceptional beauty" item. Hair is a way of describing a character,
>> as is eye color, height, weight, clothing, etc.
>Which is why I suggest that if her (or his) hair is mentioned repeatedly,
>you cut all but one mention. You shouldn't need to describe the person
>over and over again, and for some reason, hair is what seems to be a
>major Mary Sue identifier as opposed to eyes (unless, of course, her eyes
>are violet, or silver, or amber, etc...)
>>.but a character who happens to be a demon or a
>> vampire in a fanfic based on a show about demons and vampires shouldn't be
>> discouraged, and might be less likely to have Mary Sue qualities than an
>> ordinary human or a human with supernatural talent.
>One of the points of the test is to point out that while a few of these
>characterstics does not make your character a "Mary Sue", it's the
>combination of many of the exteme character traits that *does* mean you
>might be in trouble.
>I'm not saying you shouldn't have demons and vampries in a story about a
>Vampire Slayer.
>But if you have a supernatural character with violet eyes who is a former
>lover of Angel's, was made a vampire when she was 15, and is an expert
>computer hacker, then you know you're in trouble.
>LJC
Umm, what about the daughter of a 5000 year old human who is unable to
die (like her dad) who is a Willow level hacker, a Buffy/Angel level
fighter, covered in scars, has the ability to control her body
(shapeshift/tentacle/amoeba), can see in the dark, temped one summer
as a slayer, is 7 feet tall, and travels the dimensions as a bounty
hunter/mercenary?
Oh. And is a little used character in GRIT.
pdm
powerplayer
paradoxymoron
>On 25 Apr 2000 00:00:07 GMT, fyl...@aol.compliant (Rose) wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: Buffy Mary Sue Litmus Test...
>>>From: hett...@bigfoot.com (H.G.Hettinger)
>>>Date: 4/24/2000 1:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <3904b03a...@nntp.digitalexp.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, but your demon character in the Lion and the Lamb (if I remember
>>>correctly wasn't either that important nor that beautiful. And its
>>>interactions directly with the main characters (Spike and Buffy) were
>>>pretty limited, so I think that it was more of a McGuffin to get Spike
>>>and Buffy to do what you wanted them to do, than a Mary-Sue.
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, I was just foolin' around. BTW what is a McGuffin?
>Generally its some knid of magical artifact, or neat mechanical
>contraption ala the Gem of Amarra.
Is that the same thing as a deux es machina?
pdm
gets confused about the fancy plot device names.
I still want/need a beta reader.
Tara LJC O'Shea
parado...@hotmail.com (paradoxymoron) wrote:
> hett...@bigfoot.com (H.G.Hettinger) wrote:
> >>Yeah, I was just foolin' around. BTW what is a McGuffin?
>
> >Generally its some knid of magical artifact, or neat mechanical
> >contraption ala the Gem of Amarra.
>
> Is that the same thing as a deux es machina?
A McGuffin is the object that everyone is after that sets the plot
in motion--like the aforementioned Gem of Amarra. The classical example
of a McGuffin is the Maltese Falcom. It's the bird that everyone si
after, but the bird itself isn't what's interesting--the story fo the
chase is what's interesting.
A Deus Ex Machina, on the other hand, is literally the Act of God (or
nature) that resolves the conflict of the story. Hence the Oracles being
constantly referred to in my home as "[Zan and Jayna] The Deus Ex
Machina Twins." The snow in "Amends" is a good example of a Deus Ex
Machina.
When a hack writer has written hismelf or herself into a corner, and
can't find any way out other than a freak accident/storm/earthquake, or
a miracle, or a member of the Q Continuum snapping their fingers to set
everything to rights again, that's what's generally considered a Deus Ex
Machina.
It's *not* something you want to have. It's not something a good writer
should have to resort to.
LJC
Willow_R
> an easy way of making him/her/it unique, and adds to the possibility of
it
> being a 'Mary Sue Type' (MST).
Heh, I thought MST is what you *did* to Mary Sues ;)