What constitutes plagiarism?
Jake
(yeah, yeah, I know), I came across a fic which is a pretty obvious
rip-off of a fic that was posted here long ago by one who sadly doesn't
post here anymore.
The dialogue is very different but all the key plot elements are there.
The question is, is this plagiarism? There are no verbatim quotes that
I
could detect. And for some here, it appears, it's dialogue uber alles,
plot be damned.
So is this an instance of plagiarism? Feedback appreciated.
Jake
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: The dialogue is very different but all the key plot elements are there.
What are the plot elements?
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman New cartoons most days
"And to my dog, a god"
-Andy-
news:3F96EC8C...@funvtSPAM.com on 22 Oct 2003:
> I have a dilemma. While desperately seeking fanfic in
> fanfiction.net (yeah, yeah, I know),
No need to apologize. It IS possible to find the ocassional gem
or interesting idea (though it seems to no longer work for
me on my Mac w/Safari now that they've added those Google ads)
if you are willing to play around with their broken search engine.
> I came across a fic which is a pretty obvious rip-off of a fic
> that was posted here long ago by one who sadly doesn't post here
> anymore.
And the fic is ? Good/Bad/Inspirational/other ?
> The dialogue is very different but all the key plot elements are
> there.
>
> The question is, is this plagiarism? There are no verbatim
> quotes that I could detect.
Hmmm... IMHO... no. It's life on Planet Fanfic. Someone will read
a fanfic, be inspired, and rewrite it to go the way they want it
to happen. An honest fanfic author will say somewhere that they've
done it/aknowledge their sources. A clueless one won't realize
that they SHOULD (morally/ethically) mention their sources...
and will do so once they are called on it...
It really hard to have an original idea for a fic and NOT
have someone copy it or borrow themes from it. (Not that I've had
many original ideas for fics myself... but I also haven't posted
any of the ones I THINK are original in a place with a large
audience [yet]... so I don't even know if I've ever come up with a
"steal-able" idea :-))
And being influenced by someone else's fic isn't necessarily a bad
thing (I sit at the feet of the fanfic masters and hope some of
it'll rub off :-).).
I'm sure a published writer making more than soda money from their
writing (Which I believe a few people posting here do ?) might be
concerned about "plot stealing".
> And for some here, it appears, it's dialogue uber alles, plot be
> damned.
I like dialogue myself because I can't write it very well and used
effectively it can tell a lot about a character. But DWP (Dialog
Without Plot) is pretty much like PWP... not a whole lot going for
it in my opinion.
-Andy-
Jane Davitt
Until I've read them both, I couldn't say. I've known some blatant rip
offs posted there; word for word ones so I wouldn't be surprised, mind you.
Trouble is, plots aren't that individual; Buffy goes up against a
monster, defeats it; how many times can you write that without
overlapping with someone else's version? Spike and Buffy fight and end
up in a spufferific sweaty clinch; ditto.
If you're really concerned, email the original author and ask them to
take a look; if they feel it goes beyond normal duplication they can try
and discuss it with the second author maybe.
Jane
--
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt
Jake
>
> Until I've read them both, I couldn't say. I've known some blatant rip
> offs posted there; word for word ones so I wouldn't be surprised, mind you.
The original fic is "My Way" by Slashcat, posted here in July 2001.
It's a fav of mine because of my liking for in-canon fics, and this one
is great.
The plot elements common between the two (the "copycat" posted half a
year later):
timing (right after "In the Dark"); Spike-centric; Lorne; karaoke;
Sinatra; Sid Vicious; and Bloody Marys.
>
> Trouble is, plots aren't that individual; Buffy goes up against a
> monster, defeats it; how many times can you write that without
> overlapping with someone else's version? Spike and Buffy fight and end
> up in a spufferific sweaty clinch; ditto.
Yeah, but that stuff is expected. "Buffy versus a monster" is even in
the show title, much less the premise.
>
> If you're really concerned, email the original author and ask them to
> take a look; if they feel it goes beyond normal duplication they can try
> and discuss it with the second author maybe.
Good idea, I'll email Slashcat and let him deal with it. Thanks.
Peter Meilinger
>The original fic is "My Way" by Slashcat, posted here in July 2001.
>It's a fav of mine because of my liking for in-canon fics, and this one
>is great.
>The plot elements common between the two (the "copycat" posted half a
>year later):
>timing (right after "In the Dark"); Spike-centric; Lorne; karaoke;
>Sinatra; Sid Vicious; and Bloody Marys.
Going solely by that list, I could easily see it being a
coincidence. Here's my reasoning:
Timing - looked at by itself, this means nothing. Every episode
inspires someone to write a fic.
Spike-centric - way too many of these out there for this to
be a big deal.
Lorne and karaoke - they go together like a-whop-bop-a-lu-bop-
a-bop-bam-boom. Putting Spike, Lorne and karaoke into the same
fic might be copying, but it could also just be arriving at the
same fic idea independently - "Hey, it'd be cool if Spike met
Lorne and sang for him" isn't the most unique of ideas.
Sinatra - If you've got Lorne and singing, Sinatra is going to
be at least mentioned. If someone sang a Sinatra song, even
that's not a huge deal. Was it the same song, by any chance?
Sid Vicious - Spike's a punk-type. No big deal here.
Bloody Marys - what else is a vampire going to drink? It's
a pretty popular drink with everyone else, too.
Now, if you put all of these together, then you might
have a case. These aren't really even plot elements,
though, they're more like a grocery list of elements
that you get in a fic challenge.
Was the overall plot of the story similar to the first
one? Did the same things happen to the characters in
both fics?
Pete
Darth Spacey
"-Andy-" <see2...@spamdelicious.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns941CAF8EB...@216.196.97.132...
> It really hard to have an original idea for a fic and NOT
> have someone copy it or borrow themes from it.
Isn't "borrowing themes" after all exactly what we fanfic authors do,
inherently in our art? Somebody else came up with the setting, backstory and
characters, and we're borrowing that to tell a story of our own.
Darth Spacey
-Andy-
> "-Andy-" <see2...@spamdelicious.yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It really hard to have an original idea for a fic and NOT
>> have someone copy it or borrow themes from it.
>
> Isn't "borrowing themes" after all exactly what we fanfic
> authors do, inherently in our art? Somebody else came up with
> the setting, backstory and characters, and we're borrowing that
> to tell a story of our own.
[ Pardon me while I mangle the English language in an attempt to
make sense :-)... ]
At a meta level yes. When you are writing a fanfic you are
placing your original (hopefully :-)) story within the context of
someone else's "fictional universe" (where fictional could be any
story telling medium).
An author writing 'original' fiction has to go that extra step to
create the "universe" and characters from more universal
archetypes.
So, in other words, the characters and locations created by a
storyteller for their "original" story are the archetypes used by
a fanfic author.
More or less. And I should probably stop before this becomes too
convoluted. Not even sure it makes sense now. :-).
-Andy-
--
"We're not sure of much..." - Giles - 'OMWF'
Sam James
<jam...@funvtSPAM.com> posted a question about plagiarism.
Spoilers for "My Way" included below:
IMHO plagiarism is probably difficult to prove in fanfic since we're
all essentially using the same characters and (mostly) setting. So to
that regard all fanfic is sort of plagiarism except that we don't
pretend that the characters and setting are original to us.
This means charges of copying another fanfic (plagiarism) would
require copying specific language and/or plot.
>timing (right after "In the Dark"); Spike-centric; Lorne; karaoke;
>Sinatra; Sid Vicious; and Bloody Marys.
>
Those aren't plot elements. Those are details and setting, most of
which are from the show. How many times in the first few seasons was
there a visit to Lorne where a character sang karaoke? That can't be
considered copying. I'm pretty sure Angel has mentioned meeting
Sinatra at least once too.
To my mind, anything used in the show is fair game.
Finding the original fic, it seems to me that the plot of "My Way" is
after torturing Angel, Spike is angry and goes into the bar for a
drink, leaves the bar because he's sick of being with humans and looks
for a demon bar. He finds a chaos demon with a broken antler, gets
directions, breaks the other antler, goes into Lorne's place, is
talked into singing, sings "My Way" and is told by Lorne that he has
unfinished business and should return to Sunnydale.
For the other story to be a case of plagerism, I would argue that it
is not enough just to have Spike singing the same song in Lorne's and
getting the advice to go back (since his going back is canon). But if
the other story has the details of Spike starting in a human bar and
getting directions from a demon, a stronger case could be made for
plagerism.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: "-Andy-" <see2...@spamdelicious.yahoo.com> wrote
:> It really hard to have an original idea for a fic and NOT
:> have someone copy it or borrow themes from it.
:
: Isn't "borrowing themes" after all exactly what we fanfic authors do,
: inherently in our art? Somebody else came up with the setting, backstory and
: characters, and we're borrowing that to tell a story of our own.
That's very true and there's nothing to be ashamed of in it, if the works
of Virgil, Malory and Shakespeare are any indication.
Plagiarism, however, is ethically not the same thing, nor legally either.
A derivative work may be illegal, or it may not be if it's with permission
or if it's within fair use. A plagiarism is by definition a theft. I once
had a short argument on a mailing list with someone who didn't see the
distinction.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: IMHO plagiarism is probably difficult to prove in fanfic since we're
: all essentially using the same characters and (mostly) setting. So to
: that regard all fanfic is sort of plagiarism except that we don't
: pretend that the characters and setting are original to us.
Fanfiction is derivative work which is different than plagiarism under
the law. See my other post on this thread this hour.
Dee
derivative works, see: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
--Dee
"PAUL GADZIKOWSKI" <scar...@shell1.iglou.com> wrote in message
news:3f984...@news.iglou.com...
-Andy-
news:vpgiech...@corp.supernews.com on 23 Oct 2003:
> And for a good explanation of copyright law, with a specific
> metion of derivative works, see:
> http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
Thanks. That was fairly clear.
And it has a link to the following Fanfic FAQ:
http://chillingeffects.org/fanfic/faq.cgi
-Andy-
Knights Errant
front. The question of exactly what constitutes plagiarism is to big an
issue for this forum. *Especially without the original work.*
The issue of plagiarism is something of a pet-peeve of mine. Well before the
Jayson Blair story hit [the New York Times reporter who plagiarized his some
of his work], this was a real hot button topic are campus. "What is it
*exactly*?" "Where is the line?" Recently a friend of mine got a failing
grade for the semester because his chemistry paper [40% of the grade] was
"too derivative of other works found on the subject". What they really mean
is, his paper was *too similar* to an article that was posted in one of the
chem mags. The professor who started all this cannot produce the original
article. Long story short. My friend filed an official complaint. Word got
around. Headlines [yes plural] in school paper. Classroom forums. They even
talked about adding a mandatory ethics/plagiarism class to *all* majors.
People talked/argued/debated for weeks. This one is going to be settled by
lawyers.
With all that said, I've come to this conclusion. There is simple no way to
tell. Without the original fic to compare it to, it will be impossible to
call one way or another. Fairness has to given to both sides. And without
the original, no argument can be made.
--
Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. To be great is to be
misunderstood.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: There is simple no way to
: tell. Without the original fic to compare it to, it will be impossible to
: call one way or another. Fairness has to given to both sides. And without
: the original, no argument can be made.
You're absolutely right and I wish I'd said that. None of us can judge for
certain without reading both as Jake has. We can ask him questions, and
perhaps tell him, "Well, it *sounds* to *me* as if *maybe*," but we can't
pass judgment. In retrospect, I see that's why I've contributed so little
to this thread besides definitions.
Jake
>
> In response to Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:00:28 -0700, Jake
> <jam...@funvtSPAM.com> posted a question about plagiarism.
>
> Spoilers for "My Way" included below:
>
> IMHO plagiarism is probably difficult to prove in fanfic since we're
> all essentially using the same characters and (mostly) setting. So to
> that regard all fanfic is sort of plagiarism except that we don't
> pretend that the characters and setting are original to us.
No, a key element of plagiarism is that you DON'T admit you're taking
someone else's ideas, characters, settings, etc. That's the whole point
of requiring a disclaimer in fanfics. A fanfic is an homage, not a
blatant ripoff (unless it's unacknowledged to an unaware audience, i.e.,
one not familiar with the source material).
>
> This means charges of copying another fanfic (plagiarism) would
> require copying specific language and/or plot.
>
> >timing (right after "In the Dark"); Spike-centric; Lorne; karaoke;
> >Sinatra; Sid Vicious; and Bloody Marys.
> >
>
> Those aren't plot elements. Those are details and setting, most of
> which are from the show. How many times in the first few seasons was
> there a visit to Lorne where a character sang karaoke? That can't be
> considered copying. I'm pretty sure Angel has mentioned meeting
> Sinatra at least once too.
>
> To my mind, anything used in the show is fair game.
As long as you acknowledge that: disclaimer. If you're going to base
your fic not merely on the show but also on somebody else's earlier fic,
you have a moral obligation to say so.
>
> Finding the original fic, it seems to me that the plot of "My Way" is
> after torturing Angel, Spike is angry and goes into the bar for a
> drink, leaves the bar because he's sick of being with humans and looks
> for a demon bar. He finds a chaos demon with a broken antler, gets
> directions, breaks the other antler, goes into Lorne's place, is
> talked into singing, sings "My Way" and is told by Lorne that he has
> unfinished business and should return to Sunnydale.
>
> For the other story to be a case of plagerism, I would argue that it
> is not enough just to have Spike singing the same song in Lorne's and
> getting the advice to go back (since his going back is canon). But if
> the other story has the details of Spike starting in a human bar and
> getting directions from a demon, a stronger case could be made for
> plagerism.
No. I should have stated this before. What made Slashcat's fic so great
was that it explained WHY Spike went back to Sunnydale when he had no
logical reason to do so. The show deliberately swept this plot element
under the carpet; Slashcat provided a good reason for Spike to show up
in Sunnydale again (5 seconds before being turned into Hostile 17 by the
Initiative commandoes). Guess what the copycat did? The same damn
thing. He didn't even have the decency to change the song Lorne used to
read Spike.
Plagiarism, pure and simple.