From Below to Above, the First Two Seasons
Tiptree3
Hello All,
I have been a Beauty and the Beast fan since I watched the original broadcast
of "No Way Down" on 10/16/87. It is the only television series I've ever been
fanatical about. I've been a lurker on the newsgroup for a month or so, and
have been posting on the AOL Beauty and the Beast board for a couple of months.
Lately on the AOL board some of us have been posting "Top 5 Favorite Episodes
Lists," and the like. I did some posts giving my thoughts on the episodes that
were on others' lists. At some point while commenting on others' favorite
episodes lists (and thinking about how much or how little I liked these
episodes), I became interested in coming up with a list ranking all of the
episodes of the first two seasons from 1 through 44. Of course it is
impossible to become totally settled on such a list. Even though I've now come
up with a list I'm willing to go on the record with, I could still easily rank
some of the episodes 3 or 4 spots higher or lower than where they are now.
Especially toward the middle of the pack, it doesn't take much change of
opinion to move an episode a few spots up or down. I do reserve the right to
change my mind without prior notice. Rest assured that I did a LOT of
episode-viewing before coming up with even a tentative list. And then I did a
lot more episode-viewing, and it was revise, revise, and revise again (viewing
episodes all the way). I can say I'm extremely familiar with the episodes
right now (ask me anything!). Again, while I can't say I'm 100% settled on
this list (will never get THERE), this rank-ordering has been very carefully
considered.
For what it's worth, here's my list (with brief comments) in reverse order,
beginning with the lowest depths Below:
44. "Everything is Everything" A clumsy, embarassing episode with doltish
villains and Vincent having a talk with a stranger to get him to change his
mind. I thought Catherine said "hiding his face from strangers" in the opening
narration.
43. "Fever" This episode never gets above the level of cliche, even in the
balcony scene at the end. The treasure has been left at the doorstep of "St.
Regina's Aid To The Homeless." On the balcony Catherine says, "I wonder what
they must think." Vincent answers, "That it was a miracle." You'd think the
writers could have come up with something more clever and original than that!
42. "The Hollow Men" I know the episode involves "hollow men," but that
doesn't mean they had to make a nearly hollow episode!
41. "Chamber Music" Rises above the level of cliche only in that it doesn't go
for the happy ending. Amazing that this was used as the premiere to the second
season.
40. "Trial" There is more preachiness than actual drama here. There is some
good dialogue, though.
39. "Sticks and Stones" It seems to me that Vincent and Catherine use the
phrase "courage to love" rather loosely here in reference to Laura.
"Desperation to cling" might be more appropriate.
38. "Beast Within" The villain here is more interesting than some of the
others, owing to the fact that he shares a past with Vincent. I have an
especially big gripe with one scene. I can't believe Vincent just leaves
Catherine lying outside the hospital with a gunshot wound! Making sure she
gets immediate medical attention has to be infinitely more important than
avenging her shooting right away. It is more important than concealing his
identity, even, if it comes to that, and, in any case, a way could have been
devised for him to get in and out of that hospital without giving away his
identity. But he leaves her lying outside the hospital bleeding, and, guess
what, (as luck would have it!) she does get immediate medical attention. This
is lazy writing.
37. "Down to a Sunless Sea" An ex-fiance comes back into Catherine's life.
Surely they could have done something more interesting with this premise than
the episode which actually developed. I don't find this episode terribly
convincing.
36. "Dark Spirit" I found this one gripping enough the night it aired, but it
doesn't do nearly as much for me now.
35. "Terrible Savior" Here the antagonist is more complex than many of the
others. We also have some interesting interaction between Vincent and
Catherine early in their relationship as Catherine worries that Vincent is "the
bad guy."
34. "To Reign in Hell" There are some interesting settings here, but the
action seems a bit contrived. The stated intention of Paracelsus is to kill
Vincent so he can take control of the tunnel world. If that's what he wants,
he ought to just shoot him. This battle of two warriors while a chained
damsel-in-distress looks on seems gratuitous, and far from guaranteed to get
Paracelsus what he says he wants. Maybe Paracelsus is a romantic? A nice
framing device has Vincent telling all this as a story with a moral.
33. "A Distant Shore" Some nice moments between Vincent and Catherine, but
this one doesn't have much drama, and those nice moments don't generate much
emotional force.
32. "An Impossible Silence" There are some effective scenes between Vincent
and Laura, but it is not an outstanding episode.
31. "The Watcher" For much of the episode it feels as though our beloved
characters are being moved through a generic television script (complete with
cliche villain). But the ending is strong.
30. "Remember Love" Vincent's and Catherine's growing excitement at the idea
of going to Catherine's childhood place in Connecticut, and their crushing
disappointment at not being able to go, are powerfully portrayed. The episode
unfortunately falls apart (for me) during the "It's a Wonderful Life" dream
sequence.
29. "Temptation" Reminds me of "A Distant Shore" in that it has a somewhat
lame main plot with a nice thread of sentiment between V and C running through
it as a subplot. I think this one works a little better.
28. "Labyrinths" I don't really have any complaints against this one. It
seems to me that it acheives what it sets out to do. A well-made, if
unspectacular, episode.
27 "The Alchemist" As with "Dark Spirit," this is one I liked a lot better
when it was originally broadcast than I do today. But there is some good drama
here.
26. "No Way Down" This was my introduction to Beauty and the Beast. Not one
of the best episodes, but there was enough here to infect me with the "V&C"
virus. There is no cure!
25. "A Children's Story" Vincent and Catherine really work as a team in this
one, and they are positively buoyant during the happy ending. When Vincent
delivers his (quite funny) last line, he has what I believe to be the biggest
smile we ever see from him.
24. "Brothers" Wasn't nearly as keen on this episode when it was first
broadcast. This is because my focus in this series was (and is) on the Vincent
and Catherine relationship. When I tuned in on Friday nights, I was always
hoping for a V and C-centered episode, and was likely to be disappointed if I
didn't get one. Over time I have come to appreciate some of the other episodes
better than I did originally. This is one of them, as it is moving on it's own
terms. Charles has a childlike guileless quality that charms.
23. "Dead of Winter" Vincent and Catherine on a date. A nicely done episode,
though not as powerful (for me) as many of the others.
22. "China Moon" Not an extraordinary episode most of the way through, but a
sizzling finish. At this stage of their relationship, it is very exciting to
see Vincent and Catherine lock eyes (and what eyes Linda Hamilton has!) so
significantly at a wedding.
21. "A Fair and Perfect Knight" Catherine says: "Vincent, if this is my fate,
I accept it gratefully. You must believe that. Don't be afraid to want it,
even if only for yourself. Don't be afraid to deserve it. You deserve
everything." Vincent never did believe this.
20. "Promises of Someday" There is a nice melancholy quality to this
reminicence of a past long gone. The closing flashback shot of Vincent (as a
boy) watching the toy carousel as Devin (unknown to Vincent) stands behind him
is quite moving.
19. "Song of Orpheus" There are some moving moments in this one. From the
reading of Margaret's letter from long ago (as we cut from Catherine to
Margaret lying in bed to Father lying forlorn in his jail cell) to Vincent
telling Catherine, "They had seven days," this one works well.
18. "Siege" Catherine puts Vincent through agony in this one. It is not
difficult to identify with Vincent's pain here. That this gets resolved by
Elliot turning out to be involved in bad behavior is a cop-out. Still the
ending is powerful, and give some of the credit to Shakespeare. You'd think he
wrote that sonnet for this series.
17. "Shades of Grey" Some sharp dialogue between Vincent and Father while they
are trapped in the cave-in. Catherine is put in the uncomfortable position of
begging Elliot Burch for a favor after judging him morally unfit to associate
with her. The tunnel dwellers (you might say) have to do the same with Mouse.
And we're all happy to hear Catherine say, "It wasn't courage, it was love."
16. "The Outsiders" When this was originally broadcast, I didn't really think
I was watching an outstanding episode until the end. This episode has an
ending which is among the most beautiful and powerful this series ever created
(and that is saying something). The ending also raises the level of what has
gone before in the episode. It is the first episode to take seriously the
effect killing has on Vincent. It is the first time V and C pay a price for it
in their relationship.
15. "A Kingdom By the Sea" Here we get what we desired in "Siege": Catherine
telling Elliot there is no possibility for them because there is someone else.
A dramatic episode, it also contains the superhot rosebush scene.
14. "A Gentle Rain" Brilliantly written, if you ask me. There is one awkward
bit where Joe asks Catherine for advice on how to proceed with a relationship.
Other than that I don't see any missteps. The main issue in the episode is
genuinely difficult, and is explored intelligently and movingly by well-meaning
characters. When Kanin finally faces Piper Laurie at the end and tells her
he's sorry, it does get to me. Some might complain that the episode is getting
away from "Beauty and the Beast," away from centering on the V and C
relationship. To a certain extent that's true, but there is some very nice V
and C stuff here. Catherine faces what is possibly her most complex moral
dilemna in the entire series. Vincent has his own point of view on the
situation and helps guide her through it. And there is a moment when Catherine
gazes introspectively at Kanin and Olivia's bed. When Vincent speaks to her,
she makes a sharp head movement as if startled out of a daydream. That should
excite any of us V and C fanatics. To top it off there is a very nice balcony
scene at the end.
13. "When the Bluebird Sings" Very well-crafted episode that manages to
succeed impressively using its own odd internal logic. The somber fact that
Kristopher Gentian froze to death lends emotional weight to the whimsical
aspect of some of the proceedings.
12. "Ashes, Ashes" Sounds maudlin in concept, but is extremely successful in
the actual execution. The scenes that are supposed to be heartrending actually
succeed in being heartrending.
11. "Nor Iron Bars a Cage" Wobbles a bit, not at the top end of the
plausibility scale, but I find it very powerful. When Catherine is reciting
the poem at the end (and what wonderful sentiment it expresses, so powerful in
the context of the episode), and she looks up from the book and makes eye
contact with Vincent just before saying "that heavenly face," well, it's one of
the greatest moments the series ever produced.
10. "Once Upon a Time, in the City of New York" This one was especially hard
to rank. It has some awkward moments. Vincent speaks the preposterous line,
"I've never regretted what I am, until now." But I don't have to tell you
there are some very powerful scenes between Vincent and Catherine, and I think
the episode deserves to be ranked high,
9. "The Rest is Silence" I love it most for the beautiful and powerful
sequence where Catherine nurtures Vincent in her apartment. Their conversation
at the end of that sequence has a heartbreaking sense of resignation to it,
unlike anything else in the series. The episode is marred by the cliffhanger
nature of the ending.
8. "Ozymandias" The scene where Catherine tells Vincent that she is going to
marry Elliot Burch is among the most powerful in the series. The final scene,
where we hear Vincent's reading of Shelley's famous poem (from which the
episode derives its title) as we watch Elliot's stricken face, is a magnificent
touch and elevates Elliot from interesting guest character to tragic figure.
7. "Arabesque" Could have wished the Lisa character had been written a bit
more sympathetically. She acts like a pampered princess, but to have achieved
her success in ballet, she must have worked like a dog. Still it's a wonderful
episode. This series has a lot of superlative episode-ending balcony scenes,
but "Arabesque" has the most powerful of the bunch.
6. "Masques" An episode that combines a fairy tale look with gritty dialogue
and action. Brigit and Catherine are wearing dresses that might be worn by
fairy tale princesses, and Vincent doesn't look out of place in a fairy tale.
The sequence where Vincent and Brigit meet and soon begin to talk about the
things that are important to them is very moving. V and C's night on the town
(though shown too briefly) is wonderful to watch. A magical episode.
5. "Ceremony of Innocence" Wow! Has there ever been a television episode,
anywhere, so loaded with drama? If so, I haven't seen it. This thing is
intense, one dramatic scene after another!
4. "What Rough Beast" This one has Catherine wondering if she has been
"reckless," knowing Vincent would come to her and rescue her. It is not too
surprising that she is doing this soul-searching, since it seems as if the
world is about to find out about all of it. It is likely the world will judge
her harshly (as Joe does in her "Ceremony of Innocence" nightmare). Catherine
Chandler fears she is about to become the Most Hated Woman in America, and
Vincent is about to
become some kind of Most Wanted serial killer. This leads to some
off-the-scale intensely desperate scenes between V and C. After all, "It must
end now. We must end. They know everything."
3. "God Bless the Child" An episode with a lyrical beauty to it. Vincent gets
an offer he does refuse, though not without feeling "a pull." There are
several scenes that move me, but my favorite is probably the scene where Lena
first meets Vincent, and looks upon him with a childlike wonder (her eyes
filling with a tearful empathy), and no fear, no revulsion.
2. "Orphans" I can't claim to have seen all of Linda Hamilton's movies, but I
strongly doubt that she has been in any movies nearly as good as this.
"Orphans" and "A Happy Life" are far, far superior to the rest of this series,
as well. It is hard to imagine someone watching these episodes without being
moved. These episodes are beautifully conceived and written, and Linda
Hamilton is so good, it's as if she gives us an empathic connection to
Catherine as strong as Vincent's. These episodes are works of ART.
1. "A Happy Life" See Vincent! See Catherine! See Catherine run! Run,
Catherine, run!
The ending of this episode contains more joy than should be allowed! This
episode does beat out "Orphans" as my very favorite, and the night it first
aired I stayed up very late, watching it again and again and again...
Alan
northsider
I have never been a fan of ranking things in order; but, I will offer my
thoughts about some of these starting with the bottom #44: "Everything is
Everything."
I kept wandering why V&C didn't just bring Tony Below like they did
the two children in "A Children's Story."
=Sandra=
Spend too much time with people of like mind and you will lose yours.
http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/b/m/bmoore3/
Tiptree3 wrote in message <19980113072...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
northsider
Tiptree3 wrote in message
>43. "Fever" This episode never gets above the level of cliche, even in the
>balcony scene at the end. The treasure has been left at the doorstep of
"St.
>Regina's Aid To The Homeless." On the balcony Catherine says, "I wonder
what
>they must think." Vincent answers, "That it was a miracle." You'd think
the
>writers could have come up with something more clever and original than
that!
>
I rather enjoyed this episode because I got to see a lot of Below and its
people and learn some things about them!
northsider
Tiptree3 wrote in message
>42. "The Hollow Men" I know the episode involves "hollow men," but that
>doesn't mean they had to make a nearly hollow episode!
On GEnie George R.R. Martin said this episode was inspired by the
"Leopold-Loeb" murder case of the 1920's and originally had strong
homoerotic overtones. It is an example of what happens when the television
censors through with an episode.
I found this episode interesting for several reasons. For one thing, V&C
argued - something that didn't happen very often!
C thought that it was wrong for V to kill those young men to prevent them
from killing again; and, they would have surely killed again before she
found a way to put them in jail! I found this interesting in light of all
the times Vincent had to kill to prevent someone from killing her. It was
all right for Vincent to kill in order to save Catherine - but not someone
else?
Despite their disagreement V hold C while she sleeps. Nice way to end an
argument and very erotic!
IMO V is beginning to show the signs of the breakdown which would soon
follow in the Trilogy. I found his statement at the end "When will it ever
stop?" very interesting.
Also what was Catherine looking at there as Vincent said it? Those guys
shot at Vincent at pretty close range. Was he wounded? Did
Catherine have his shirt open looking at the wound? :)
northsider
>>41. "Chamber Music" Rises above the level of cliche only in that it
>doesn't go
>>for the happy ending. Amazing that this was used as the premiere to the
>second
>>season.
The scene with V&C in the rain was nice. Otherwise, I agree with you.
This being used as the opening episode was probably a result of the writer's
strike of that summer and all the confusion which followed it!
northsider
>>40. "Trial" There is more preachiness than actual drama here. There is
>some
>>good dialogue, though.
I agree.
northsider
>>39. "Sticks and Stones" It seems to me that Vincent and Catherine use the
>>phrase "courage to love" rather loosely here in reference to Laura.
>>"Desperation to cling" might be more appropriate.
Laura struck me here as a "silly little ninny" who was mad at her boyfriend
for keeping secrets from her while still keeping secrets from him!
northsider
>>38. "Beast Within" The villain here is more interesting than some of the
>>others, owing to the fact that he shares a past with Vincent. I have an
>>especially big gripe with one scene. I can't believe Vincent just leaves
>>Catherine lying outside the hospital with a gunshot wound! Making sure
>she
>>gets immediate medical attention has to be infinitely more important than
>>avenging her shooting right away. It is more important than concealing
his
>>identity, even, if it comes to that, and, in any case, a way could have
>been
>>devised for him to get in and out of that hospital without giving away his
>>identity. But he leaves her lying outside the hospital bleeding, and,
>guess
>>what, (as luck would have it!) she does get immediate medical attention.
>This
>>is lazy writing.
I did not like the actor who played Mitch. I thought the way he delivered
his lines at times sounded like simple recitation with no real acting.
I do like the idea of a villain who shares a past with Vincent although I
did keep wandering why he did not get back at both Vincent and the tunnel
dwellers by giving away their secret. Because he still hoped someday to be
able to return?
GRRM said that there were plans for Mitch to return via "The Prodigal."
I agree that it did seem odd for V to leave C outside the hospital and
I do wander how Catherine handled all the questions which were sure to
follow.
TCramer124
Well, Alan, I'm glad to see your post here about the first two seasons here on
the newsgroup boards.
I'm anxiously awaiting to read what others here think of your list. I love the
list and I love your comments about each episode. You and I have been posting
back and forth on the AOL boards about this post for the last few days. I'm
not finished with you yet! LOL!!!
All I can say as a big B & B fan, I am lovin' this!!!! <G>
Tina (going back to lurk mode here on the newsgroup for the time being so
others may comment on this wonderful post by Alan)
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Subject: Re: From Below to Above, the First Two Seasons
Thanks, Tina! But, gosh, you're making me blush right out here in public! And
we hardly even know some of these people!
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra writes:
<<
I have never been a fan of ranking things in order; but, I will offer my
thoughts about some of these starting with the bottom #44: "Everything is
Everything."
>>
First of all, Sanda, thanks a lot for all you're feedback! I very much enjoyed
reading your comments. I will be responding to some of your comments about
specific episodes as time permits. But first let me deal with the idea of the
list itself. I AM a fan of ranking things in order. I'm always interested in
what other fans of the show think of the relative merits of the different
episodes. I'm interested in which episodes blew them away, which episodes
didn't do much for them, and which episodes were in between. For example, I
find it interesting that "Masques" and "The Outsiders" are among your favorite
episodes, and that "A Gentle Rain" is your least favorite episode. It's just
interesting to know that. A list is simply a relatively concrete (and
shorthand) way of communicating this type of information. I recognize that
episodes of a television series don't lend themselves to rank-ordering as
conveniently as, say, baseball teams. That doesn't mean the list itself
doesn't communicate interesting information. I also recognize that doing a 1
through 44 list is a bit extreme. But I had a desire to be on the record as to
my opinion of the relative merits of all the episodes. I'm just throwing the
type of information out there that I'm always interested in receiving from
other fans. Thanks again!
Alan
Teri
tap:
Alan, I was amazed by your list and thoroughly enjoyed it! I had to laugh
at your intro, though, and understood completely how difficult it is to try
and rank these eps, when it implies some are worse than others. Of course
that's always true, relatively speaking, but I love the show so much that
even my least favorite of the 44 have things about them I absolutely adore!
I'm going to put together my own list when I get back in town (next week)
but I'm already vacillating on whether or not I can possibly rank them in
1-44 order. I may end up putting mine in a top 10/bottom 10/middle 24 list
instead. Like you, I will, no doubt, reserve the right to change my mind
at any given moment (and will probably do so over and over again while
doing the list itself :) I'm thinking of doing ep breakout based on my
favorite and least favorite thing on each, and will enjoy daydreaming over
it while ostensibly concentrating only on my work at a trade show this
weekend ;>
--
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
Tiptree3 <tipt...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980114074...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
<snip>
TCramer124
Teri responses to Alan:
<<Alan, I was amazed by your list and thoroughly enjoyed it! I had to laugh at
your intro, though, and understood completely how difficult it is to try and
rank these eps, when it implies some are worse than others. Of course that's
always true, relatively speaking, but I love the show so much that even my
least favorite of the 44 have things about them I absolutely adore! I'm going
to put together my own list when I get back in town (next week) but I'm already
vacillating on whether or not I can possibly rank them in 1-44 order. I may
end up putting mine in a top 10/bottom 10/middle 24 list instead. Like you, I
will, no doubt, reserve the right to change my mind at any given moment (and
will probably do so over and over again while doing the list itself :) I'm
thinking of doing ep breakout based on my favorite and least favorite thing on
each, and will enjoy daydreaming over it while ostensibly concentrating only on
my work at a trade show this
>weekend ;>
>--
>Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
>
>Teri>>
>
Teri,
Yours is one list I definitely want to read. I don't care how you catagorize
it! I'm really curious to know what your #1 episode would be. And your top
ten as well!
I love reading how each fan has their own particular favorites.
I can wait for your list. An episode breakout would be great too! <G>
Tina
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Hello All,
I have been a Beauty and the Beast fan since 10/16/87, when I watched the
original broadcast of "No Way Down." It is the only television series I've
ever been fanatical about. I have been a lurker on the newsgroup for a few
weeks and have been posting on the AOL Beauty and the Beast board for a couple
of months. Some of us on the AOL board have been posting Top 5 favorite
episodes lists, and the like. I did some posts commenting on the episodes on
the others' lists.
At some point while commenting on others' favorite episodes lists (and
thinking about how much or how little I liked these episodes, I became
interested in coming up with a list ranking all of the episodes of the first
two seasons from 1 through 44. Of course it is impossible to become totally
settled on such a list. Even though I've now come up with a list I'm willing
to go on the record with, I could still easily rank some of the episodes 3 or 4
spots higher or lower than where they are now. Especially toward the middle of
the pack, it doesn't take much change of opinion to move an episode a few spots
up or down. I do reserve the right to change my mind without prior notice.
Rest assured that I did a LOT of episode-viewing before coming up with even a
tentative list. And then I did a lot more episode-viewing, and it was revise,
revise, and revise again (viewing episodes all the way). I can say I'm
extremely familiar with the episodes right now (ask me anything!). Again,
while I can't say I'm 100% settled on this list (will never get THERE), this
rank-ordering has been very carefully considered. I have already posted the
list to the AOL board, and I thought I might also post it here, for what it's
worth.
So here it is (with brief comments) in reverse order, beginning with the lowest
depths Below:
44. "Everything is Everything" A clumsy, embarassing episode with doltish
villains and Vincent having a talk with a stranger to get him to change his
mind. I thought Catherine said "hiding his face from strangers" in the opening
narration.
43. "Fever" The episode never gets above the level of cliche, even in the
balcony scene at the end. The treasure has been left at the doorstep of "St.
Regina's Aid To The Homeless." On the balcony Catherine says, "I wonder what
they must think." Vincent answers, "That it was a miracle." You'd think the
writers could have come up with something more clever and original than that!
42. "The Hollow Men" I know the episode involves "hollow men," but that
doesn't mean they had to make a nearly hollow episode!
41. "Chamber Music" Rises above the level of cliche only in that it doesn't go
for the happy ending. Amazing that this was used as the premiere to the second
season.
40. "Trial" There is more preachiness than actual drama here. There is some
good dialogue, though.
39. "Sticks and Stones" It seems to me that Vincent and Catherine use the
phrase "courage to love" rather loosely here in reference to Laura.
"Desperation to cling" might be more appropriate.
38. "Beast Within" The villain here is more interesting than some of the
others, owing to the fact that he shares a past with Vincent. I can't believe
Vincent just leaves Catherine lying outside the hospital like that with a
gunshot wound! Making sure she gets immediate medical attention is infinitely
more important than avenging her shooting right away! It is more important
than concealing his identity, even, if it comes to that, but a way could have
been devised for him to get in and out of that hospital without giving away his
identity. But he leaves her lying outside the hospital bleeding, and, guess
what, (as luck would have it!) she does get immediate medical attention. This
is lazy writing.
37. "Down to a Sunless Sea" An ex-fiance comes back into Catherine's life.
18. "Seige" Catherine puts Vincent through agony in this one. It is not
difficult to identify with Vincent's pain here. That this gets resolved by
Elliot turning out to be involved in very bad behavior is a cop-out. Still the
ending is powerful, and give some of the credit to Shakespeare. You'd think he
wrote that sonnet for this series.
17. "Shades of Grey" Some sharp dialogue between Vincent and Father while they
are trapped in the cave-in. Catherine is put in the uncomfortable position of
begging Elliot Burch for a favor after judging him morally unfit to associate
with her. The tunnel dwellers (you might say) have to do the same with Mouse.
And we're all happy to hear Catherine say, "It wasn't courage, it was love."
16. "The Outsiders" When this was originally broadcast, I didn't really think
I was watching an outstanding episode until the end. This episode has an
ending which is among the most beautiful and powerful this series ever created
(and that is saying something). The ending also raises the level of what has
gone on before in the episode. It is the first episode to take seriously the
effect killing has on Vincent. It is the first time V and C pay a price for it
in their relationship.
15. "A Kingdom By the Sea" Here we get what we desired in "Siege": Catherine
telling Elliot there is no possibility for them because there is someone else.
A dramatic episode, it also contains the superhot rosebush scene.
14. "A Gentle Rain" Brilliantly written, if you ask me. There is one awkward
bit where Joe asks Catherine for advice on how to proceed with a relationship.
Other than that I don't see any missteps. The issue is genuinely difficult,
and is explored intelligently and movingly by well-meaning characters. When
Kanin finally faces Piper Laurie at the end and tells her he's sorry, it gets
to me. Some might complain that the episode is getting away from "Beauty and
the Beast," away from centering on the V and C relationship. To a certain
extent that's true, but there is some very nice V and C stuff here. Catherine
faces what is possibly her most complex moral dilemna in the entire series.
Vincent has his own point of view on the situation and helps guide her through
it. And there is a moment when Catherine gazes introspectively at Kanin and
Olivia's bed. When Vincent speaks to her, she makes a sharp head movement as
if startled out of a daydream. That should excite any of us V and C fanatics.
To top it off there is a very nice balcony scene at the end.
13. "When the Bluebird Sings" Very well-crafted episode that manages to
succeed impressively using its own odd internal logic. The somber fact that
Kristopher Gentian froze to death lends emotional weight to the whimical aspect
of some of the proceedings.
12. "Ashes, Ashes" Sounds maudlin in concept, but is extremely successful in
the actual execution. The scenes that are supposed to be heartrending actually
succeed in being heartrending.
11. "Nor Iron Bars a Cage" Wobbles a bit, not at the top end of the
plausibility scale, but I find it quite powerful. When Catherine is reciting
the poem at the end (and what wonderful sentiment it expresses, so powerful in
the context of the episode), and she looks up from the book and makes eye
contact with Vincent just before saying "that heavenly face," well, it's one of
the greatest moments the series ever produced.
10. "Once Upon a Time, in the City of New York" This one was especially hard
to rank. It has some awkward moments. Vincent speaks the preposterous line,
"I've never regretted what I am, until now." But I don't have to tell you
there are some very powerful scenes between Vincent and Catherine, and I think
the episode deserves to be ranked high,
9. "The Rest is Silence" I love it most for the beautiful and powerful
sequence where Catherine nurtures Vincent in her apartment. Their conversation
at the end of that sequence has a sad sense of resignation to it, unlike
anything else in the series. The episode is marred by the cliffhanger nature
of the ending.
8. "Ozymandias" The scene where Catherine tells Vincent that she is going to
marry Elliot Burch is among the most powerful in the series. The final scene,
where we hear Vincent's reading of Shelley's famous poem (from which the
episode derives its title) as we watch Elliot's stricken face, is a magnificent
touch and elevates Elliot from interesting guest character to tragic figure.
7. "Arabesque" Could have wished the Lisa character had been written a bit
more sympathetically. She acts like a pampered princess, but to have achieved
her success in ballet, she must have worked like a dog. Still it's a wonderful
episode. This series has a lot of superlative episode-ending balcony scenes,
but "Arabesque" has the most powerful of the bunch.
6. "Masques" An episode that combines a fairy tale look with gritty dialogue
and action. Brigit and Catherine are wearing dresses that might be worn by
fairy tale princesses, and Vincent doesn't look out of place in a fairy tale.
The whole sequence where Vincent and Brigit meet and soon begin to talk about
the things that are important to them is moving. V and C's night on the town
(though shown too briefly) is wonderful to watch. A magical episode.
5. "Ceremony of Innocence" Wow! Has there ever been a television episode,
anywhere, so loaded with drama? If so, I haven't seen it. This thing is
intense, one dramatic scene after another!
4. "What Rough Beast" This one has Catherine wondering if she has been
"reckless," knowing Vincent would come to her. It is not too surprising that
she is doing this soul-searching, since it seems as if the world is about to
find out about all of it. It is likely the world will judge her harshly (as
Joe does in her "Ceremony of Innocence" nightmare). Catherine Chandler is
about to become the Most Hated Woman in America, and Vincent is about to become
some kind of Most Wanted serial killer. This leads to some off-the-scale
intensely desperate scenes between V and C. After all, "It must end now. We
must end. They know everything."
3. "God Bless the Child" An episode with a lyrical beauty to it. Vincent gets
an offer he does refuse, though not without feeling "a pull." There are
several scenes that move me, but my favorite is probably the scene where Lena
first meets Vincent, and looks upon him with a childlike wonderment (her eyes
filling with a tearful empathy), and no fear, no revulsion.
2. "Orphans" I can't claim to have seen all of Linda Hamilton's movies, but I
strongly doubt that she has been in any movies nearly as good as this.
"Orphans" and "A Happy Life" are far, far superior to the rest of this series,
as well. It is hard to imagine someone watching these episodes without being
deeply moved. These episodes are beautifully conceived and written, and Linda
Hamilton is so good, it's as if she gives us an empathic connection to
Catherine as strong as Vincent's. These episodes are works of art by the
strictest definitions.
Tiptree3
Teri writes:
<<
Alan, I was amazed by your list and thoroughly enjoyed it! I had to laugh
at your intro, though, and understood completely how difficult it is to try
and rank these eps, when it implies some are worse than others. Of course
that's always true, relatively speaking, but I love the show so much that
even my least favorite of the 44 have things about them I absolutely adore!
I'm going to put together my own list when I get back in town (next week)
but I'm already vacillating on whether or not I can possibly rank them in
1-44 order. I may end up putting mine in a top 10/bottom 10/middle 24 list
instead. Like you, I will, no doubt, reserve the right to change my mind
at any given moment (and will probably do so over and over again while
doing the list itself :) I'm thinking of doing ep breakout based on my
favorite and least favorite thing on each, and will enjoy daydreaming over
it while ostensibly concentrating only on my work at a trade show this
weekend ;>
>>
Thanks, Teri! I am delighted that you're going to do a list! Like Tina I am
very much looking forward to seeing it. While I will admit that doing a 1
through 44 rank-ordering is an exercise in masochism, the more rank-ordering
that is done, the more information the list conveys. If I may be so
presumptuous, I would like to lobby you to do a rank-ordering of at least the
top 10 part of your list. Don't worry, none of us will sue you if you insist
on changing your mind later! Regardless of what you decide, it will be great
fun to see your list.
I agree with you that every episode of the series has something to like, though
I think you're a bit more charitable toward your least favorites than I am
toward mine. For me there are a few episodes (just a few) whose rewards are
very meager.
Alan
TCramer124
>Thanks, Tina! But, gosh, you're making me blush right out here in public! And
we hardly even know some of these people!
Alan,
LOL!!!!
Tina :-)
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Everything is Everything":
<<
I kept wandering why V&C didn't just bring Tony Below like they did
the two children in "A Children's Story."
>>
Well, the kid wanted to reunite with his grandparents. Personally, I thought
the grandparents were scum for disowning the kid for something HIS FATHER
allegedly did. I don't think they were people who were going to teach him good
values.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Chamber Music":
<<
The scene with V&C in the rain was nice. Otherwise, I agree with you.
This being used as the opening episode was probably a result of the writer's
strike of that summer and all the confusion which followed it!
>>
I enjoyed Linda Hamilton's shower scene also, though I didn't really understand
it since I've never felt such exuberance at the sudden onset of rain. I don't
think Vincent exactly understood it, either, but he went along with it.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Fever":
<<
I rather enjoyed this episode because I got to see a lot of Below and its
people and learn some things about them!
>>
They showed the people Below, but I don't think they did anything interesting
with them here. I really find this episode lame and uninspired. But in the
spirit of Teri, I'll mention a couple of things I liked. At the beginning of
the episode when clothing that Catherine has brought for the tunnel dwellers is
being distributed, she says that they were just some "odds and ends" she found
lying around her place. Vincent, looking at one item, wryly tells her she must
learn to remove the price tags from her "odds and ends." Another thing I liked
is when Mouse gives Catherine a gift. "You give, I give," he says. You know
she's touched because she wears the necklace to the book party that night
(Mouse would have been proud to know she was wearing it).
Alan
northsider
I also thought that all that about it just being their culture was pretty
lame. If I said "Well, I can't socialize or be with black people because I
am a Southerner and I just wasn't brought up that way." I would not find
any sympathy. I would be expected to rise above all that and correctly so.
It seems to me the same should be true for Tony, his grandparents, and their
"even unto the third generation" mentality.
=Sandra=
Spend too much time with people of like mind and you will lose yours.
http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/b/m/bmoore3/
Tiptree3 wrote in message <19980118075...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Sandra on "Everything is Everything":
><<
>I kept wandering why V&C didn't just bring Tony Below like they did
>the two children in "A Children's Story."
>>>
>
northsider
I think Catherine was letting off a little steam! :)
=Sandra=
Spend too much time with people of like mind and you will lose yours.
http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/b/m/bmoore3/
Tiptree3 wrote in message <19980118080...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Down to a Sunless Sea"
<<
Well we do have the scene where Catherine tells Stephen that she has found
someone else, and in the context of which she speaks it is obvious that she
is not talking about a new friend! She also tells Stephen that she loves
him, "him" meaning Vincent. It was simply the nod of her head; but, it was
an earthquake as far as I was concerned because it was obvious that
Catherine was not talking about "platonic love."
We do learn something more of Catherine's past; and, IMO learn something of
Catherine's psychology as well. It was obvious that Stephen had been a very
controlling boyfriend. He used to pick out her clothes! On one level
Catherine seems to have liked this; on another level it frightened her which
IMO is why she left him. I think Catherine was attracted to domineering
men. Vincent was domineering in his own way. So was Elliot Burch and Tom
Gunter definitely! One one level Catherine wanted to be her own person, on
another level she wanted to be some man's little girl!
Catherine got between Vincent and Stephen and stopped Vincent from killing
Stephen, something she didn't do with others who threatened her!
Catherine also seems to have gotten aid for Stephen, something that did not
happen with most of those the time when Vincent had to come to her rescue.
That many of those who Vincent killed were left to die is plainly stated in
"What Rough Beast,"
>>
I didn't get quite THAT big a charge out of Catherine telling Stephen Bass that
there was someone else whom she loved. This episode came rather late in the
first season, and by that time I was convinced that Catherine was in love with
Vincent, and that she had admitted it to herself. Also, even if she weren't
sure she was in love with Vincent, she might be inclined to tell Stephen she
was, in an effort to prevent him from rekindling his hopes. Still I admit it
was NICE to see her acknowledge it.
I found Stephen Bass a one-note character barely more rounded and fleshed-out
than that "watcher" guy. Mitch in "The Beast Within" was a more interesting
character than Stephen Bass. I did not find the "fatal attraction" direction
the episode took an interesting way to go.
That victims were left to bleed to death was a choice of words by Paracelsus in
"What Rough Beast." I'm not sure we're meant to believe that V and C actually
left people alive and bleeding to death at the scenes of some of the incidents.
It's certainly true that it often didn't look as if Vincent did enough to kill
these people right away (or at all in some cases), but I attributed this to
limitations on the brutality of violence on TV.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "To Reign in Hell":
<<
I never could figure out what Paracelsus was all about.
>>
I think that's because they made him up as they went along. In "The Alchemist"
and "To Reign in Hell" he seems willing to kill Vincent (though he speaks of
having cared for him and loved him in "Reign"). In "What Rough Beast" and
"Ceremony of Innocence" he seems to adore Vincent as a "son," even to the point
of happily sacrificing HIMSELF to bring out the part of Vincent he loves.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "A Children's Story":
<<
Koslow, GRRM et al considered this episode a disappointment since
the guy who played the villain played the part straight whereas they wanted
a moustace twirling comedic type villain. If the part had been played like
they wanted it, the character would have returned in other episodes.
>>
The villain has some pretty harsh dialogue for a comedic character. "Without
me, you got nothing. Without me, you got the chicken hawks on the street. You
want to be selling your body?" This to a girl who appears to be about 13. And
he appears to commence striking her after this speech (the scene is cut away
from at that point). The episode works pretty well for me. There is pain
expressed (and portrayed) between V and C at the separateness of their lives.
This is contrasted nicely by their exuberance at the end. They've accomplished
something important, and they've done it together. By the way, Sandra, I find
all this background information that you have from GRRM fascinating.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Dead of Winter":
<<
One of my favorite episodes because I got to see more of the tunnels and the
people Below. There was also the final scene with V&C dancing! :)
>>
I've pretty much gotten the idea from the AOL board that everybody seems to
like this episode a lot more than I do. There is a situation of physical
danger here, but not enough emotional turmoil to rank as one of my favorites.
I think every episode I ranked above "Dead of Winter" (except "When the
Bluebird Sings," and "Bluebird" is more impressive than "Winter" in other ways)
has considerably more emotional turmoil. Also I never became as fascinated
with the tunnel world as many other fans apparently did. And while I certainly
liked the dancing at the end, it doesn't rate as one of my favorite V and C
endings.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "China Moon":
<<
A episode that a lot of BATB fans hate; but, I am more accepting of
Vincent going out and doing his duty like a good soldier, so to speak, than
I am of him being completely out of control. I just think that Vincent
should not have been the only soldier!
>>
Hmmm, this wasn't the only time Vincent killed while emotionally under control.
Off-hand I can think of "An Impossible Silence," when he killed to protect
Laura. I guess she was more immediately in danger, though. What was Vincent
supposed to do in "China Moon?" Wait until the attackers were hacking away at
tunnel dwellers?
Alan
BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Promises of Someday"
<<
I enjoyed learning more about Vincents past; and Father was sure into
keeping secrets. :)
>>
No kidding. I posted on the AOL board sometime back that I didn't find it
particularly believable that Father kept the fact that he was Devin's
biological father a secret. I suppose it was done in this case so there could
be a "revelation" that would change Devin's state of mind.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Siege":
<<
Yes, having Elliot involved in bad behavior was a cop out.
IMO there were two powerful scenes in this one, the ending and Vincent's
discussion with Father about his pain. Look where Vincent's hand is placed.
:)
When Vincent is discussing the situation with Catherine it troubles me
when Catherine tells Vincent that if she fell in love with Elliot it would
make no difference in her relationship with Vincent. It sounded to me like
she was neutering Vincent right there!
>>
You're right, Sandra, she was neutering our poor hero! I posted on the AOL
board sometime back that I guess, in her mind, Vincent was supposed to just
grin and bear it through the years, even as he could "sense" her having sex
with Elliot Burch. I think that is a powerful scene. Also very effective is
the scene where Vincent comes to her balcony to inform Catherine of the plight
of the old people in the apartment building. Catherine has met Elliot that
night, and Vincent has sensed her beginning to fall for him. Vincent is in an
emotionally crushed state during this scene. Catherine talks about her new
life. Vincent tells her, "Follow your heart, follow your heart, you must."
She is not even aware that he knows about, or is referring to, Elliot Burch.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra on "Nor Iron Bars a Cage":
<<
I am told that originally they had intended for Vincent to be nude on the
examination table except for a cloth covering you know what; but, they
decided it would be too expensive to make Ron up from head to toe.
I would have been glad to make a contribution! }:->
>>
Ugh! There would have been no contribution from me. Anyway, I thought women
didn't like men with hair on their backs.
Alan
northsider
Definitely they were making it up as they went along; but, on one level in
our discussions we are pretending that this is all real, that there were no
writers; and, on that level, I am trying to make it fit into what is a
coherent whole, at least for me.
=Sandra=
Spend too much time with people of like mind and you will lose yours.
http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/b/m/bmoore3/
Tiptree3 wrote in message <19980120224...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Teri
tap:
I personally don't know of anyone who hated this ep, though my
interpretation is that Sandra might think so because of her read on the
rescue/protect issue. From my own standpoint, this is an interesting one
because it tells us something more about Vincent and the bond, though not
enough to completely illuminate either - just a little more insight.
Here he is not in his 'beast-out' mode (for lack of a better term :) but
rather plans and executes his plans very coldly, with foresight and
forethought. He does this other times too, in the ep you mention, Alan,
and also through much of the 3S eps, imo.
I think he's quite capable of this, though I think it is something he
despises doing. Still, he would never indulge his own sensitivities at the
expense of his family, friends and the woman he loves, so he always
protects as is necessary.
When it's Catherine he comes to protect, however, it's almost never
'coldly' or with 'forethought'. The bond appears to push him into
overdrive and he acts instinctively, appearing as if in a primal rage.
This distinction is what I find fascinating, for what it tells us of their
bond.
Through it, V&C are linked at an extremely deep, primal level, and the
strength, immediacy and thoroughness of this particular response speaks to
the importance of these two characters to each other through the vehicle of
the bond. His instinctive, non-hesitating response is obviously intended
to act as a form of additional insurance for Catherine's safety, and that
tells me something about the purpose of the bond and its presence between
them - they're absolutely necessary to each other. Why else is there a
bond between them and no one else?
Vincent is empathic, true, but this is different by several degrees and
nothing like it exists elsewhere in the story. It is unique, and for a
good reason, in terms of the drama. It would become common-place - boring
- and lose it's appeal, imo, if he could form a 'real' bond with anyone -
like Father or Devin, for instance. It would be mundane if it weren't
present between he and Catherine - just another love story, albeit with a
hairier male lead.
The bond is definitely one of the most important elements to the story for
me because it drives up the level of emotional intensity much higher than
it could possibly be without it, and that's what I love of the series.
It's not just two normal people who love each other, it's two highly
unusual people who love each other with a passionate intensity far beyond
what we normally perceive in our day to day lives. Now this, imo, is
definitely tv worth watching!!
I love something of every one of the first 44 eps (I haven't forgotten the
list yet, Alan - I just need a little more time :) but the eps I really
love in total are the ones with a lot of 'emotional turmoil' as you
referred to it. The ones with less of that (where V protects 'coldly' for
example) are less appealing to me, because in a certain sense he could be
any other man, Below *or* Above, protecting his home - an admirable trait,
but not beyond a normal person's normal expectations, except for the fact
of his unique appearance, and that alone is such a small part of what the
character is.
Since I perceive the bond to have the capability of inspiring huge
emotional responses between C&V, this is where the opportunity for the best
emotional turmoil lies, imo - between Catherine and Vincent. Sure,
sometimes it's between Vincent and Father, and that's wonderful too, but
almost always the catalyst for those turbulent outbursts is Catherine
herself and Father's fears that she will push Vincent beyond the 'safe'
boundaries he has set for his son (something most fans were panting for
during each ep, of course ;) Father's overprotectiveness inspires a lot of
discussion in fandom, too, but I wouldn't have changed it a bit for the
very reason that it *did* inspire that emotional turmoil in Vincent and
Catherine, and as Martha Stewart says, that's a good thing! LOL!!
Whether he's defending Catherine to Father, protecting her outright or in
distress over another evolutionary step in their relationship, it's all
yummy emotional stuff to me, and I love it! It's why I'm still here
talking about the show long after it was cancelled on tv.
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
> Sandra on "China Moon":
> A episode that a lot of BATB fans hate; but, I am more accepting of
> Vincent going out and doing his duty like a good soldier, so to speak,
than
> I am of him being completely out of control. I just think that Vincent
> should not have been the only soldier!
> Alan:
Teri
tap:
Re your comment about women not caring for men with hair on their backs,
Alan, typically (though I'm sure there are exceptions) we don't! (I've just
got two words on that issue: HOT WAX!! ;) But in Vincent's case, I think
it's safe to say all the women in fandom eagerly make one massive (pun
intended :) exception in his case! LOL!!!
P.S.
Put me in for $100. Who do I make the check out to?
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
> Sandra:
> I am told that originally they had intended for Vincent to be nude on the
> examination table except for a cloth covering you know what; but, they
> decided it would be too expensive to make Ron up from head to toe.
> I would have been glad to make a contribution! }:->
> Alan:
Teri
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
> Sandra on "China Moon":
Teri
tap:
Re your comment about women not caring for men with hair on their backs,
Alan, typically (though I'm sure there are exceptions) we don't! (I've just
got two words on that issue: HOT WAX!! ;) But in Vincent's case, I think
it's safe to say all the women in fandom eagerly make one massive (pun
intended :) exception in his case! LOL!!!
P.S.
Put me in for $100. Who do I make the check out to?
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
> Sandra:
northsider
Alan wrote:
>> Hmmm, this wasn't the only time Vincent killed while emotionally under
>control.
>> Off-hand I can think of "An Impossible Silence," when he killed to
>protect
>> Laura. I guess she was more immediately in danger, though. What was
>Vincent
>> supposed to do in "China Moon?" Wait until the attackers were hacking
>away at
>> tunnel dwellers?
>
while still maintaining emotional control; and, I certainly did not say that
he should not have done so - just the opposite
Teri wrote in message <6a5ah7$9...@chaos.rtchaos.com>...
>tap:
>I personally don't know of anyone who hated this ep, though my
>interpretation is that Sandra might think so because of her read on the
>rescue/protect issue.
Thinking so has nothing to do with it and I don't see where my take on what
you call the rescue/protect issue has anything to do with "China Moon."
"China Moon", "The Outsiders", and "The Hollow Men" are among the most
disliked episodes in the fandom. I have seen enough polls to know that;
although I will admit that the fandom is a little easier on "China Moon"
than the other two episodes - IMO because it has some "redeeming romantic
moments" which the "The Outsiders" and "The Hollow Men" lack.
From my own standpoint, this is an interesting one
>because it tells us something more about Vincent and the bond, though not
>enough to completely illuminate either - just a little more insight.
>
>Here he is not in his 'beast-out' mode (for lack of a better term :) but
>rather plans and executes his plans very coldly, with foresight and
>forethought. He does this other times too, in the ep you mention, Alan,
>and also through much of the 3S eps, imo.
>
>I think he's quite capable of this, though I think it is something he
>despises doing. Still, he would never indulge his own sensitivities at the
>expense of his family, friends and the woman he loves, so he always
>protects as is necessary.
>
>When it's Catherine he comes to protect, however, it's almost never
>'coldly' or with 'forethought'. The bond appears to push him into
>overdrive and he acts instinctively, appearing as if in a primal rage.
>This distinction is what I find fascinating, for what it tells us of their
>bond.
You really think that he hates killing coldly and with thought; but, doesn't
mind turning into a maniac and slashing a few throats? :)
>
>Through it, V&C are linked at an extremely deep, primal level, and the
>strength, immediacy and thoroughness of this particular response speaks to
>the importance of these two characters to each other through the vehicle of
>the bond. His instinctive, non-hesitating response is obviously intended
>to act as a form of additional insurance for Catherine's safety,
That is just the way Vincent is, and not just with Catherine. In "Fever,"
"An Impossible Silence," and "Legacy," Vincent acts just as quickly to save
someone other than Catherine.
and that
>tells me something about the purpose of the bond and its presence between
>them - they're absolutely necessary to each other. Why else is there a
>bond between them and no one else?
Because bonds don't exist in reality; but, Koslow needed one for Vincent to
know when Catherine was in trouble; so he created one.
>
>Vincent is empathic, true, but this is different by several degrees and
>nothing like it exists elsewhere in the story. It is unique, and for a
>good reason, in terms of the drama. It would become common-place - boring
>- and lose it's appeal, imo, if he could form a 'real' bond with anyone -
>like Father or Devin, for instance. It would be mundane if it weren't
>present between he and Catherine - just another love story, albeit with a
>hairier male lead.
>
>The bond is definitely one of the most important elements to the story for
>me because it drives up the level of emotional intensity much higher than
>it could possibly be without it, and that's what I love of the series.
>It's not just two normal people who love each other, it's two highly
>unusual people who love each other with a passionate intensity far beyond
>what we normally perceive in our day to day lives. Now this, imo, is
>definitely tv worth watching!!
To you the bond is important because of your take on it. You seem to think
that it makes Vincent and Catherine special. I think that they are special
all by themselves. I see them both tragically flawed - true; but, they
could never be ordinary!
As for the bond, IMO it exists because that is the way that Vincent falls in
love! It is part of his uniqueness. IMO the bond exists because Vincent is
unique. It does not of itself make Vincent and Catherine together or apart
unique.
Tiptree3
>> Sandra on "China Moon":
>> A episode that a lot of BATB fans hate; but, I am more accepting of
>> Vincent going out and doing his duty like a good soldier, so to speak,
>than
>> I am of him being completely out of control. I just think that Vincent
>> should not have been the only soldier!
I responded:
>> Hmmm, this wasn't the only time Vincent killed while emotionally under
>control.
>> Off-hand I can think of "An Impossible Silence," when he killed to
>protect
>> Laura. I guess she was more immediately in danger, though. What was
>Vincent
>> supposed to do in "China Moon?" Wait until the attackers were hacking
>away at
>> tunnel dwellers?
>
Sandra responded:
<<
I did not say that "China Moon" was the only time that Vincent had killed
while still maintaining emotional control; and, I certainly did not say that
he should not have done so - just the opposite
>>
Sandra, I was wondering at the logic of those who supposedly hate "China Moon"
due to Vincent killing while under control, not YOUR logic (with which I
agree). And I was pointing out that there were other instances of this (that
they should also hate if Vincent killing while under control was their
problem), but did not mean to imply that you had said there were no other
instances. I apologize for not being clear.
Alan
Tiptree3
Teri writes:
<<
Through {the bond), V&C are linked at an extremely deep, primal level, and the
strength, immediacy and thoroughness of this particular response speaks to
the importance of these two characters to each other through the vehicle of
the bond. His instinctive, non-hesitating response is obviously intended
to act as a form of additional insurance for Catherine's safety, and that
tells me something about the purpose of the bond and its presence between
them - they're absolutely necessary to each other. Why else is there a
bond between them and no one else?
Vincent is empathic, true, but this is different by several degrees and
nothing like it exists elsewhere in the story. It is unique, and for a
good reason, in terms of the drama. It would become common-place - boring
- and lose it's appeal, imo, if he could form a 'real' bond with anyone -
like Father or Devin, for instance. It would be mundane if it weren't
present between he and Catherine - just another love story, albeit with a
hairier male lead.
The bond is definitely one of the most important elements to the story for
me because it drives up the level of emotional intensity much higher than
it could possibly be without it, and that's what I love of the series.
It's not just two normal people who love each other, it's two highly
unusual people who love each other with a passionate intensity far beyond
what we normally perceive in our day to day lives. Now this, imo, is
definitely tv worth watching!!
>>
Teri, to your sentence, "It's not just two normal people who love each other,
it's two highly unusual people who love each other with a passionate intensity
far beyond what we normally perceive in our day to day lives," I would add,
"and who are unable to reach any physical consummation of that love." To
illustrate, here is an excerpt from a conversation in "A Children's Story":
"When I see you, Catherine, I'm filled with a happiness sweeter than
anything I've ever known, and at the same time I'm reminded of a life that can
never be, and I feel great pain."
"I know. So do I. Vincent, what will we do?"
"The only thing we can do. We'll endure the pain, and savor every moment
of the joy."
I think this pain/joy COMBINATION, more than anything else, riveted us to the
series. Yes, it is important that the love seemed grander, bigger than life.
That made the "pain," the "exquisite pain" (as I have often to referred to it
on the AOL board), that much greater!
It has come to my attention (from reading this newsgroup and the AOL board)
that there were a lot of fans watching the series from week to week just dying
for that first passionate kiss. And they felt a lot frustration and anger as
Koslow and Co. kept passing up opportunities to give it to them. I didn't
experience it that way. I felt no indignation at the "shadow kiss" in "A Happy
Life" (I thought it was lovely). I don't remember feeling any frustation or
anger at the end of any episode due to lack of a kiss (except TLBL, but there
were bigger issues to be indignant about there!). Sure, I always wanted to
believe that kissing (and more) was in their future. And I'll admit that I was
occasionally faked out by Catherine's head movements into thinking a kiss was
about to happen, and that moment was always exciting. But Koslow and Co. were
there to provide drama, not to indulge my fantasy life. Once they started V
and C with passionate kissing, the series would have been changed greatly. So
much that was done in the series couldn't have been done the same way if V and
C were already kissing like ordinary TV couples. For example, Vincent in
"Song of Orpheus" saying "They had seven days." How about the balcony scene at
the end of "Arabesque?" Could they have even done it? Could "These hands are
beautiful, these are my hands" have meant much if V and C had already been
kissing like your average horny couple? Would the DRAMA of Catherine moving
below in "Orphans" have been as intense if V and C had already been physically
closer? This great love between Vincent and Catherine is a nice fantasy, but
the "exquisite pain" of "Although we cannot be together..." is what so
powerfully riveted us to the fantasy. The series got a lot of powerful drama
out of this "exquisite pain." The kissing would have been exciting for awhile,
but trust me, it would have worn thin fairly quickly. Bring V an C closer and
closer and eventually you have Robert Wagner and Stephanie Powers in "Hart to
Hart" with Robert Wagner "Beasting Out" once in a while. Sure, Teri, the
empathic bond added something, but that was (for me) a difference in degree,
not in kind. Their physical separateness (including the way this reinforced
his angst at being a "beast," once they were kissing this would have been
greatly alleviated) was the key to what set them apart from other TV couples.
I have no argument with Koslow and Co. for keeping V and C away from
passionate kissing during the first two seasons.
I will say, however, that I think they should been turned loose for big time
passionate kissing in TLBL There was no more reason to hold them back.
Teri writes:
<<
I love something of every one of the first 44 eps (I haven't forgotten the
list yet, Alan - I just need a little more time :) but the eps I really
love in total are the ones with a lot of 'emotional turmoil' as you
referred to it.
>>
Take your time with the list, Teri. I'm really looking forward to it, but I
know how difficult it is get comfortable with such a list.
Teri writes:
<<
The ones with less of that (where V protects 'coldly' for
example) are less appealing to me, because in a certain sense he could be
any other man, Below *or* Above, protecting his home - an admirable trait,
but not beyond a normal person's normal expectations, except for the fact
of his unique appearance, and that alone is such a small part of what the
character is.
Since I perceive the bond to have the capability of inspiring huge
emotional responses between C&V, this is where the opportunity for the best
emotional turmoil lies, imo - between Catherine and Vincent. Sure,
sometimes it's between Vincent and Father, and that's wonderful too, but
almost always the catalyst for those turbulent outbursts is Catherine
herself and Father's fears that she will push Vincent beyond the 'safe'
boundaries he has set for his son (something most fans were panting for
during each ep, of course ;) Father's overprotectiveness inspires a lot of
discussion in fandom, too, but I wouldn't have changed it a bit for the
very reason that it *did* inspire that emotional turmoil in Vincent and
Catherine, and as Martha Stewart says, that's a good thing! LOL!!
Whether he's defending Catherine to Father, protecting her outright or in
distress over another evolutionary step in their relationship, it's all
yummy emotional stuff to me, and I love it! It's why I'm still here
talking about the show long after it was cancelled on tv.
>>
I'm still here, too. "Yummy emotional stuff" is the heart of any great drama.
For me the most delicious emotional turmoil comes in "A Happy Life." when the
emotional turmoil within Catherine threatens to tear them apart. Vincent is
forced to give her the break up she so desperately needs (and, yes, wants), not
knowing if she's ever coming back. What could have been more painful for him?
And, having felt that pain (he and us!), what could have been more joyful then
their reunion? "Forgive me! Forgive me for doubting! What we have is all
that matters. It's worth everything!" As Vincent said, "We endure the pain,
and savor every moment of the joy."
Alan
TCramer124
Alan responses to Teri:
<<I think this pain/joy COMBINATION, more than anything else, riveted us to
the series. Yes, it is important that the love seemed grander, bigger than
life. That made the "pain," the "exquisite pain" (as I have often to referred
to it on the AOL board), that much greater! >>
I think the "exquisite pain" was necessary too but sometimes it just frustrated
me because I often wondered if they would ever truly end up together. I'm a
believer in "love conquers all." I feel that eventually the "love" would have
overcome the "pain".
This series made me feel that their love could conquer all.
<<It has come to my attention (from reading this newsgroup and the AOL board)
that there were a lot of fans watching the series from week to week just dying
for that first passionate kiss. And they felt a lot frustration and anger as
Koslow and Co. kept passing up opportunities to give it to them. I didn't
experience it that way. I felt no indignation at the "shadow kiss" in "A Happy
Life" (I thought it was lovely). I don't remember feeling any frustation or
anger at the end of any episode due to lack of a kiss (except TLBL, but there
were bigger issues to be indignant about there!). Sure, I always wanted to
believe that kissing (and more) was in their future. And I'll admit that I was
occasionally faked out by Catherine's head movements into thinking a kiss was
about to happen, and that moment was always exciting. But Koslow and Co. were
there to provide drama, not to indulge my fantasy life. Once they started V
and C with passionate kissing, the series would have been changed greatly. So
much that was done in the series couldn't have been done the same way if V and
C were already kissing like ordinary TV couples.>>
I think it wasn't so much indignation but just the fact that we wanted to see
them together so badly. For a B & B episode to be first rate with me, I needed
to at least have them interacting with each other. The interaction was the
most important part.
I didn't need to see them kissing at the end of every episode to know they were
in love with one another but I did need that interaction desperately! <G>.
There are quite a few second season episodes that really leave an opening for
that big, passionate kiss we all wanted. The rosebush scene in A Kingdom By
The Sea, The balcony scene in The Rest Is Silence where Vincent says "Whatever
happens, whatever comes, know that I love you." Now that could have been a
nice moment knowing what was to come next in TLBL! :-( And, of course, the
separation scene in What Rough Beast. When the only thing that C can say is
"Hold me." it just makes me crazy. That just doesn't work for me. In the
context of the scene, if that is the last time they may ever see each other, I
want her to KISS HIM and I want it to be GOOD!!!!! I don't want him to ever
forget it!!! And I don't want to forget it either!!!! :-) Sheesh, talk about
a warm and fuzzy feeling! <G>
I know we've had this discussion before, Alan!!! <G> But, I just can't let it
go because that "exquisite pain" I feel from all of the relationship angst they
endured just won't let me! :-)
<< How about the balcony scene at the end of "Arabesque?" Could they have even
done it? Could "These hands are beautiful, these are my hands" have meant much
if V and C had already been kissing like your average horny couple? Would the
DRAMA of Catherine moving below in "Orphans" have been as intense if V and C
had already been physically
closer? This great love between Vincent and Catherine is a nice fantasy, but
the "exquisite pain" of "Although we cannot be together..." is what so
powerfully riveted us to the fantasy. The series got a lot of powerful drama
out of this "exquisite pain." The kissing would have been exciting for awhile,
but trust me, it would have worn thin fairly quickly.>>
Again, I agree here with your logic on the subject.
There is one scene in Orphans, however, I would have tampered with, even if
the episode is perfection in my eyes.
I think I might have had Vincent stay with her that first night! Just holding
her....nothing more. Add to that sexual tension. Talk about keeping your
emotions in check! Yikes! :-)
I might have also had them maybe have their first passionate kiss at the
waterfall where they discuss making their dream come true and Catherine wanting
to come below to live. They get caught up in the moment and the moment carries
them away.
Had those moments happened in Orphans, I still believe that "Arabesque" would
be just as good an episode. Even better....the perfect way to end the
"Arabesque" these hands are my hands" quote would have been with a true kiss.
Not only is Catherine telling him...she's showing him in no uncertain terms
that she loves him.
<<I have no argument with Koslow and Co. for keeping V and C away from
passionate kissing during the first two seasons. I will say, however, that I
think they should been turned loose for big time passionate kissing in TLBL
There was no more reason to hold them back.>>
>
With regard to TLBL, I certainly agree. Open the floodgates and damn the
torpedos! <G> If there ever was a reason to explain how Jacob arrived in the
world, it certainly wasn't with lava and roses! <G>
The reasons all died the day Catherine gave her last breath.
<< As Vincent said, "We endure the pain, and savor every moment of the joy.">>
Alan, you said a mouthful!!! Truer words were never spoken!
Tina
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Teri
>Alan:
> Teri, to your sentence, "It's not just two normal people who love each
other,
> it's two highly unusual people who love each other with a passionate
intensity
> far beyond what we normally perceive in our day to day lives," I would
add,
> "and who are unable to reach any physical consummation of that love."
<snip lots more good stuff :)
tap:
I agree in regards to the events we saw on screen. I think it was very
important to maintain a high level of sexual tension to pull this off on a
week to week basis, but that has to be maintained by a balancing knowledge
of the *possibilities* and the implication there was a way to reach that.
I think it was a very fine balancing act, but i think it was done. Though
there were things said and done that indicated they *couldn't* be together,
those were ofset with small breakings of those barriers, implying that
perhaps what they thought was an immutable law totheir relationship might
be something else,to be discovered in time. I don't see a huge separation
in 'our fantasies' and 'the drama'. I think Koslow played both of them
like a fine violin. The possibilities are 'our in the future', and as long
as I see them exist with even some small progress toward them, I am drawn
along, and that's what happened for me in the story, up to ep 44. At that
point the fairytale continues for me, albiet in fanfic form. The nice
thing about that is you have a lot more luxury to move to a time and place
you want to explore, and then still step backward to other spots that are
just as intriguing.
Teri
I agree with you on this one, Tina. For me the fantasy is the drama, and
it worked as long as their relationship progressed. I never saw them as
only to be together 'to a point'. I see their possibilities as limited
only by their own fears, and the drama is in the overcoming of those fears
and working toward their full, rich and happy life together. In my batb
universe they get their hugs and kisses and more. They get it all :> And
by the way, I think all the ep revisions and modifications you mentioned
would indeed have made them better without locking koslow into too much.
The beauty of Vincent's makeup, along with the strength of perceptions
added by the bond, is that it isn't an easy fear to overcome. Koslow can
use the two steps forward/one step back technique quite well in this, thus
able to maintain a highly charged atmosphere of sexual tension while still
giving so many of the viewers what they desperately wanted (and ultimately
found in fanfic).
--
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
>Tina:
Teri
tap:
I just reread my previous posts on this, and wanted to add the following
line, just sum up how I feel on this issue:
Vincent and Catherine as chaste, platonic lovers only? No way, no how in
my vision of BATB!! hehehe!
--
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
(and by 'together', I mean *together*! ;)
TCramer124
Teri writes:
<<I agree with you on this one, Tina. For me the fantasy is the drama, and it
worked as long as their relationship progressed. I never saw them as only to
be together 'to a point'. I see their possibilities as limited only by their
own fears, and the drama is in the overcoming of those fears and working toward
their full, rich and happy life together. In my batb universe they get their
hugs and kisses and more. They get it all :> And by the way, I think all the
ep revisions and modifications you mentioned would indeed have made them better
without locking koslow into too much. The beauty of Vincent's makeup, along
with the strength of perceptions added by the bond, is that it isn't an easy
fear to overcome. Koslow can use the two steps forward/one step back technique
quite well in this, thus able to maintain a highly charged atmosphere of sexual
tension while still giving so many of the viewers what they desperately wanted
(and ultimately found in fanfic).>
Tina replies:
Teri.....Finally, I'm understood! This is exactly what I'm saying about their
relationship.!!! <G>
I always looked at the relationship as a series of baby steps. One big baby
step forward/two little baby steps back. Koslow used this technique to drive
us all crazy but at least I felt he was moving in the right direction. He
played us all like violin strings and I love him for it. And sometimes I hate
him for it too! <VBEG>
One wonders what might have really happened between V & C if LH had continued
on. I can think of no better place to start than right there in that cave at
the point of the cliffhanger. Right there
is where the examination of all the fears leads.
It would be amazing to read a series of fanfic episodes as an unaired V/C
alternate 3rd season where fanfic writers actually produce/write an entire
season of 22 written episodes. I have seen this done with other television
series and it has worked well. Lots of ideas to explore without a doubt.
2nd season I felt the relationship just kept evolving throughout the episodes.
From Season 1 ender A Happy Life until The Rest Is Silence, I felt that
tremendous strides were being made, all things considered.
For me, Orphans was a high mark event in the course of their relationship. It
could have been a two-part episode. That's how much more they could have
explored the possibilities raised in that episode. And none of it I believe
would have taken away from the drama factor in my mind. The tender kiss of
thanks that Catherine gives Vincent at the end of Orphans in no way inhibits
them from continuing to encounter angst in their relationship. So I really
believe if a more passionate kiss would have happened earlier in the episode,
like at the waterfall as I described, it would only have opened the way for
more discussion to take place in Orphans about their fears and examined even
more facets of their relationship. Oh, the lost possibilities.
Also, the drama that was yet to happen in episodes such as "Arabesque". I
would almost qualify "Arabesque" as a unique event unto itself. That episode
examines Vincent's fears so uniquely. That ending is the perfect spot for a
real kiss. For Catherine to really, truly show Vincent her love in a way that
matters just as much as the emotional love. It was an opportunity missed. And
every time I see the episode, I just shake my head and think of what could have
been.
As Vincent said, "You either run towards love or away from it...there is no
other direction." I like to think that Koslow was moving them towards it...it
was just taking an awfully long journey to get to the promised land! <G>
I'd like to lock Koslow in a room and pick his brain about the what ifs of 3rd
season had LH stayed. Wow, imagine the possibilities.
Hey, but half the fun is in the journey. And I wouldn't have missed the ride
for anything! :-)
Tina (who feels like she should be breaking into song singing "We Shall
Overcome") :-)
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Tina writes:
<<
There are quite a few second season episodes that really leave an opening for
that big, passionate kiss we all wanted. The rosebush scene in A Kingdom By
The Sea, The balcony scene in The Rest Is Silence where Vincent says "Whatever
happens, whatever comes, know that I love you." Now that could have been a
nice moment knowing what was to come next in TLBL! :-( And, of course, the
separation scene in What Rough Beast. When the only thing that C can say is
"Hold me." it just makes me crazy. That just doesn't work for me. In the
context of the scene, if that is the last time they may ever see each other, I
want her to KISS HIM and I want it to be GOOD!!!!! I don't want him to ever
forget it!!! And I don't want to forget it either!!!! :-) Sheesh, talk about
a warm and fuzzy feeling! <G>
I know we've had this discussion before, Alan!!! <G> But, I just can't let it
go because that "exquisite pain" I feel from all of the relationship angst they
endured just won't let me! :-)
>>
Let it go, Tina! For your own good, let it go! It's eating you alive!!!<G>
By the way, if they were going to have a kiss during "A Kingdom by the Sea,"
the scene near the end when she explains the Burch kiss would have been the
place to do it, not the rosebush scene!
Tina writes:
<<
There is one scene in Orphans, however, I would have tampered with, even if
the episode is perfection in my eyes.
I think I might have had Vincent stay with her that first night! Just holding
her....nothing more. Add to that sexual tension. Talk about keeping your
emotions in check! Yikes! :-)
>>
Nah, I wouldn't tamper with that scene. I like the way we can see her ALMOST
ask him to stay, and back down. It's dramatic. And I like the way their
first semi-night together actually comes about, with him coming to her as she
is huddled and crying in the dark.
Tina writes:
<<
I might have also had them maybe have their first passionate kiss at the
waterfall where they discuss making their dream come true and Catherine wanting
to come below to live. They get caught up in the moment and the moment carries
them away.
>>
Let it go, Tina!!! Before it's too late!!!<G>
Tina writes:
<<
Had those moments happened in Orphans, I still believe that "Arabesque" would
be just as good an episode. Even better....the perfect way to end the
"Arabesque" these hands are my hands" quote would have been with a true kiss.
Not only is Catherine telling him...she's showing him in no uncertain terms
that she loves him.
>>
In the "Arabesque" scene Catherine says, "And you desired [Lisa]. There is no
shame in that."
Vincent answers, "For me there is."
This just ain't gonna seem entirely sincere if we've seen Vincent enjoying
passionate kisses (fulfilling desire) with Catherine!
A good deal of the "exquisite pain" that powers this series comes from the
angst Vincent feels at being a "beast" (angst from the different way he looks,
and from his awareness of his "dark side").
This makes Vincent feel deeply unworthy of that special kind of female
companionship. This angst (along with C's love for him) drives that balcony
scene in "Arabesque." Vincent says, "Suddenly, in her eyes, I saw a fear of
me. I-I saw myself." Vincent views himself as an object of fear to women.
He's not so sure that Catherine doesn't fear him in some primal way that
doesn't apply to other men. Once V and C begin passionately kissing, all of
this is going to be alleviated to a considerable degree. I do not think the
ending to "Arabesque" can be nearly as powerful if that theshold has already
been crossed.
Tina, you have puzzled over why I'm so fond of "God Bless the Child." Lena
looks upon him when she first meets him with no fear, no revulsion.
"Lena, don't be afraid."
"I'm not afraid"
Vincent will always cherish that moment (as will I). He said so.
When Lena comes to him with her pitch, "Let me love you, Vincent," it's as if
she is offering him a "Get Out of Jail Free Card" for being a "beast." She is
offering (whatever you may think of her, V and L had developed a sweet little
bond of their own) to lift a tremendous burden (that angst) he has been
carrying at least since his adolescence. She is telling him in no uncertain
terms that his "beastliness" is no barrier to her. This is powerful stuff, and
it's no wonder he feels a "pull." Of course it's impossible because his "heart
is bound to another."
Alan
northsider
I agree with what most of you have said; it is just that there are
moments, like in AKBTS when Catherine says "...and I wished it was
you."; and, especially in AFAPK when Vincent agonizes over Michael and
Catherine sharing a kiss, you begin to wonder why Catherine doesn't just
kiss him since he obviously needs it so much.
Personally I think that just maybe the scenes could have been written a
little differently. :)
--
JChap0217
>When Lena comes to him with her pitch, "Let me love you, Vincent," it's as if
>she is offering him a "Get Out of Jail Free Card" for being a "beast." She
>is
>offering (whatever you may think of her, V and L had developed a sweet little
>bond of their own) to lift a tremendous burden (that angst) he has been
>carrying at least since his adolescence. She is telling him in no uncertain
>terms that his "beastliness" is no barrier to her. This is powerful stuff,
>and
>it's no wonder he feels a "pull." Of course it's impossible because his
>"heart
>is bound to another."
Alan, this is an amazing thing about Vincent; something that makes him, in a
lot of ways, more "human" than many men. Many men would take her up on her
offer, "heart bound to another", or not! I'm not saying ALL men -- just a lot!
A lot of men would just let the "animal" instinct in them take over, and worry
about the consequences later. Vincent, of course, despite his physical
appearance, is more human than animal!! It's no wonder so many women "swoon"
over him!!!! If only he existed......
Julie
TCramer124
I wrote:
<<I know we've had this discussion before, Alan!!! <G> But, I just can't let
it go because that "exquisite pain" I feel from all of the relationship angst
they endured just won't let me! :-)>>
Alan replies:
<<Let it go, Tina! For your own good, let it go! It's eating you
alive!!!<G>>>
LOL!!!!! Hmmmm, maybe I need to join a support group! Any volunteers to help
start a support group! <EG>
>
Alan wrote:
<<In the "Arabesque" scene Catherine says, "And you desired [Lisa]. There is
no shame in that." Vincent answers, "For me there is." This just ain't gonna
seem entirely sincere if we've seen Vincent enjoying passionate kisses
(fulfilling desire) with Catherine!>>
>
A good deal of the "exquisite pain" that powers this series comes from the
angst Vincent feels at being a "beast" (angst from the different way he looks,
and from his awareness of his "dark side").
This makes Vincent feel deeply unworthy of that special kind of female
companionship. This angst (along with C's love for him) drives that balcony
scene in "Arabesque." Vincent says, "Suddenly, in her eyes, I saw a fear of
me. I-I saw myself." Vincent views himself as an object of fear to women.
He's not so sure that Catherine doesn't fear him in some primal way that
doesn't apply to other men. Once V and C begin passionately kissing, all of
this is going to be alleviated to a considerable degree. I do not think the
ending to "Arabesque" can be nearly as powerful if that theshold has already
been crossed.>>
All you've written above is very valid Alan and I agree with it. All I'm
saying is carry out that scene the way it's written and add a kiss at the end
of it. It would make that ending just that much sweeter in my opinion. Have
the scene as written and then when she kisses his hands and holds them have her
also do a long....stare <G> and then kiss him. <Insert HEAVY SIGHS AND CHEERS
FROM THE CHEAP SEATS here>
Alan writes:
<<Tina, you have puzzled over why I'm so fond of "God Bless the Child." Lena
looks upon him when she first meets him with no fear, no revulsion.
>
> "Lena, don't be afraid."
> "I'm not afraid"
>
>Vincent will always cherish that moment (as will I). He said so.
>When Lena comes to him with her pitch, "Let me love you, Vincent," it's as if
she is offering him a "Get Out of Jail Free Card" for being a "beast." She is
offering (whatever you may think of her, V and L had developed a sweet little
bond of their own) to lift a tremendous burden (that angst) he has been
carrying at least since his adolescence. She is telling him in no uncertain
terms that his "beastliness" is no barrier to her. This is powerful stuff, and
it's no wonder he feels a "pull." Of course it's impossible because his "heart
is bound to another."
Tina replies:
Well, Alan, I watched with intense interest today "God Bless The Child" and I
must admit that I'm coming to terms with the "pull" issue. You've made me
re-examine my thinking on the issue.
Now if I can just get some help for my "why didn't they ever let them really
kiss" addiction...I'll be fine! Ten years and there still is no cure! <G> :-)
Tina (who is thinking right now that a B & B movie with an alive Catherine
might cure me! Ahhh, the miracles of modern science! <G>)
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Teri
> Tina:
their
> relationship.!!! <G>
tap:
Oh, I think *tons* of fans feel like you do, Tina!!! Why else would C&V
erotic fanfic be so popular in fandom?!
> I always looked at the relationship as a series of baby steps. One big
baby
> step forward/two little baby steps back. Koslow used this technique to
drive
> us all crazy but at least I felt he was moving in the right direction.
He
> played us all like violin strings and I love him for it. And sometimes I
hate
> him for it too! <VBEG>
tap:
Yup, yup, yup!!!
> One wonders what might have really happened between V & C if LH had
continued
> on. I can think of no better place to start than right there in that
cave at
> the point of the cliffhanger. Right there
> is where the examination of all the fears leads.
tap:
I agree completely! This is a great place to make the maximum use of the
angst between these two characters and their relationship. That's why my
favorite SND scenario is the nightmare one that occurs in this spot. We
keep the angst for psychological drama, but ditch the baggage that brought
the show down.
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Tiptree3
Not that anyone has questioned them, but I thought I'd clarify (with revisions)
a couple of sentences in a recent post. The sentences as originally written
don't make a lot of sense (though it may be that readers were able to decipher
my intended meaning). Some may argue that a lot more than two sentences need
revision :-)
I wrote:
<<
Vincent views himself as an object of fear to women.
He's not so sure that Catherine doesn't fear him in some primal way that
doesn't apply to other men.
>>
I would revise the second sentence to:
He's not so sure that Catherine doesn't fear a physical union with him in some
primal way, a fear (he reasons) she doesn't have for "normal" men.
I also wrote:
<<
When Lena comes to him with her pitch, "Let me love you, Vincent," it's as if
she is offering him a "Get Out of Jail Free Card" for being a "beast."
>>
I would revise this to:
When Lena comes to him with her pitch, "Let me love you, Vincent," it's as if
she is offering him a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, in essence a pardon for the
"crime" of being a "beast."
Alan
Tiptree3
Teri writes:
<<
I agree with you on this one, Tina. For me the fantasy is the drama, and
it worked as long as their relationship progressed. I never saw them as
only to be together 'to a point'. I see their possibilities as limited
only by their own fears, and the drama is in the overcoming of those fears
and working toward their full, rich and happy life together. In my batb
universe they get their hugs and kisses and more. They get it all :> And
by the way, I think all the ep revisions and modifications you mentioned
would indeed have made them better without locking koslow into too much.
The beauty of Vincent's makeup, along with the strength of perceptions
added by the bond, is that it isn't an easy fear to overcome. Koslow can
use the two steps forward/one step back technique quite well in this, thus
able to maintain a highly charged atmosphere of sexual tension while still
giving so many of the viewers what they desperately wanted (and ultimately
found in fanfic).
>>
I've mentioned on the AOL board that during the early part of the 1st season, I
was desperately searching for confirmation that Catherine was in love with
Vincent. There is some sentiment on the AOL board that she was in love by the
end of "Masques," and I don't necessarily dispute that. I can't say that I can
point out the one particular moment when I became convinced. Certainly I was
convinced by the end of "China Moon!" When you see Catherine making eye
contact with Vincent that way at a wedding, you know it's all possible. So by
then I felt no doubt of the POSSIBILITY of them being "fully together," and I
didn't worry about that point any more. The beauty was in watching them
struggle to get there. Teri, I like what you say about Koslow having it set up
well so that he could "use the two steps forward/one step back technique" and
"maintain a highly charged atmosphere of sexual tension." It WAS important to
have occasional baby steps forward (always a thrill for the viewers). While I
agree that some of Tina's kissing scenarios would have made the individual
episodes in question stronger, I think the first big passionate kiss changes
the series from that moment forward. That's the moment in the fairy tale when
the frog turns into the prince, and for all (or at least the crucial)
emotional intents and purposes, it's "happily ever after." Instead of walking
around with the tremendous burden of being a "beast," I fear Vincent would be
prancing around grinning like the cat who swallowed the (in this case very
lovely!) canary.
Alan
TCramer124
Alan wrote:
<< I would revise the second sentence to:>>
>> He's not so sure that Catherine doesn't fear a physical union with him in
some primal way, a fear (he reasons) she doesn't have for "normal" men.>>
Teri wrote:
>tap:
>Oh, definitely. But it's even more intriguing, imo. I don't think
>Catherine does fear this, but Vincent thinks she should. He's afraid of what
he might do or what might happen and I don't think he can believe she
*couldn't* be afraid, in light of his own deep fears. These deeply felt yet
fiercely hidden emotions (partly as a defense mechanism, partly out of intense
embarassement over such a private issue) provide some deliciously
intriguing, erotic drama, which finally gets it's best opportunity to play
itself out in fanfic. Ooh la la! ;>>
I would certainly agree with both of you on this. And I tend to agree with
Teri, in that, by end of 2nd season, Catherine has no fear of anything where
Vincent is concerned.
When she walks in that cave at the end of The Rest Is Silence, she is putting
her money where her mouth is (so to speak!) :-) As she told Father, "Without
him, there is nothing." And the look Catherine gives Father as she says this
defies description in my opinion. That is the look of a woman who is willing
to risk everything to bring him out of that darkness because she will not allow
Vincent to be overcome by that darkness and his own fears. And in the end, she
does risk everything for love. The promise made in A Happy Life comes to
fruition here. For Catherine, his love is worth everything.
My only wish is that TLBL would have focused more on the issue of Catherine
bringing him out of that darkness and how Vincent reacts to that knowledge. I
just know in my heart that had LH continued on with the series that TLBL would
certainly have had a different look and feel to it. (And certainly a happier
ending!)
There are so many good ways they could have dealed with the issue of Vincent's
fears and being overcome by his dark side. Catherine proved she was ready to
help him see the light the moment she set foot in that cave. She was bringing
Vincent out of that darkness and making him see the light even if it killed
her.
At the end of The Rest Is Silence, V & C were coming to a crossroads. They
were standing at the brink of forever. I deseparately wanted to see them make
it safely to the other side. It's too bad that TLBL is the taped conclusion to
a fairytale that I can't let go of. Every time I sat through TLBL (its
original airing and once in reruns), I always want to get up and leave the
room. I keep thinking if I get up and leave, then what is about to happen
never will. <G> I have it on tape but I refuse to make myself go through all
that pain again.
I had a hard enough time getting through it the first time it aired.
So in my mind, TLBL doesn't really exist and I know that V & C are out there
somewhere working their way towards their happy life together.
All I can say is "Thank God for fanfic."
Tina ("Of things that are not and that should be.")
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Julie on "God Bless the Child":
<<
Alan, this is an amazing thing about Vincent; something that makes him, in a
lot of ways, more "human" than many men. Many men would take her up on her
offer, "heart bound to another", or not! I'm not saying ALL men -- just a lot!
A lot of men would just let the "animal" instinct in them take over, and worry
about the consequences later. Vincent, of course, despite his physical
appearance, is more human than animal!! It's no wonder so many women "swoon"
over him!!!! If only he existed......
>>
Yes. Exactly. I'm glad you give Vincent credit for this. There has been a
lot of discussion on the AOL board over this episode. Some are bothered by the
fact that Vincent acknowledges having felt a "pull" when Lena came to him. But
I think he honored Catherine by his response to Lena, explaining his love for
Catherine and telling Lena what she asked for was "impossible." That he felt a
"pull" that was "beyond thought" in no way dishonored Catherine. Catherine
said it in "Arabesque" (on the subject of V's feelings for Lisa): "...you
desired her. There is no shame in that."
Julie, you write, "It's no wonder so many women 'swoon' over him!!!!" On that
subject, I wonder if Koslow ever dreamed (when he was creating him) that
Vincent would become such a heartthrob to so many women!
Alan
EJohnson7
<<I wonder if Koslow ever dreamed (when he was creating him) that
Vincent would become such a heartthrob to so many women!
Alan >>
He might have. Vincent is an archetype--I mean the "Beast" is. I remember
when I was a little girl swooning (well, maybe not swooning, but really liking)
the Cupid & Psyche story, which is basically Beauty and the Beast. It had long
been my favorite fairy tale. And I was always annoyed at the end when the
Beast turned into a lame-o prince!
EJ
northsider
I think that Catherine did fear Vincent; but, she began to lose that
fear in the latter part of the second season. IMO this is one thing
that contributed to Vincent's "breakdown." As long as Catherine was
not ready for a physical relationship; Vincent could hide behind that;
but, when Catherine began to lose her fears, Vincent had to face his.
TCramer124
Sandra writes:
<<I think that Catherine did fear Vincent; but, she began to lose that fear in
the latter part of the second season. IMO this is one thing that contributed
to Vincent's "breakdown." As long as Catherine was not ready for a physical
relationship; Vincent could hide behind that; but, when Catherine began to lose
her fears, Vincent had to face his.>>
Sandra,
I definitely agree. I felt second season was a great evolution process in
their relationship at least on Catherine's part. You could just see a gradual
change in Catherine's attitude towards their relationship as compared to 1st
season. A lot of this evolution comes from the promise made in A Happy Life.
And I agree that as long as Catherine wasn't ready for the physical
relationship, Vincent could hide behind that. And I think he was hiding behind
it. He did not want to believe that Catherine could "desire" him in the same
way he "desired" her. But as second season was coming to a close, Catherine
was definitely "desiring" him. I wanted to see them confront this issue head
on.
Second season brought about an examination of those fears.
The episodes "The Outsiders" and "Arabesque" begin to examine the fears that
Vincent has had to live with all his life.
That is why I love those episodes. Catherine is trying so hard to reach him in
those episodes. She so desperately wants him to know that she does love him.
That's why I will never understand how "Arabesque" could not have ended with a
kiss. After their discussion on the balcony, what better way is there to prove
to Vincent that she not only loves him but is "in love" with him physically,
emotionally and any other way you care to approach it. That she does "desire"
him. She is not afraid to love him and to be loved by him.
The fact that they don't kiss almost seems like a cop-out to me. As if
Catherine is not completely and totally in love with him. That balcony scene
is an opportunity waiting to happen to express their passion in the most
intense way possible in a very emotional time. Emotional times call for
emotional responses. What could be more emotionally fulfilling (for both of
them) and passionately uplifting than a kiss! <G>
Sometimes you not only have to talk the talk but walk the walk as it were! <G>
Hence, the reasons I feel LH got so frustrated with her character before she
left the show. You can't have Catherine consoling him and being there for him
and telling him that she does "love" him as in "The Outsiders" and not back it
up. You gotta put your money where your mouth is!!!!! <G> :-)
You can still create sexual tension along the way. There were many complex
issues involved in their relationship and they certainly weren't going to
overcome those issues with just one tender kiss. But, hey, it would have been
a start towards reaching the end of the rainbow.
Half the fun is in the journey. And I would have stayed riveted to my TV to
see what might happen next. <G>
Just as with the kiss in Orphans, I am of the opinion that no one in fandom
seems to believe that for a moment that kiss took away from the sexual tension
between them. Everyone seems to accept that kiss (even if it is a kiss of
thanks) for what it is and judges it accordingly. But no one seems to mind
that the kiss happened at least from what I can tell. The one step forward,
two steps back approach that Koslow took was certainly working to his advantage
but there are moments I, for one, (and I'm sure I'm not the only one here)
believe that Koslow could have allowed the passion to escalate just a tad on
the richter scale. All I'm talking about is a real kiss here. No fake outs
and no image kisses.
I will now step off of my soapbox and remember to breathe! Somedays, I just
care too much about what could have been with this show and it makes me a
little nuts!
Tina (defending truth, justice, and the right to have V & C kiss under any
circumstances! <G> :-) There is a truth beyond knowledge and that truth is
love!)
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
northsider
To save space, I didn't quote it; but, I definitely agree with all you
said Tina. Some people seem to think that BATB was in a bit of a rut
during the second season; but, I think that there was quite a lot going
on in the relationship and in the evolution of the characters. I also
think that everything which happened in BATB has to be taken in the
context of when it happened in the series. With a lot of series,
episodes can be taken out of context; but, not with BATB. It is like a
soap opera in that way, although I like to think of it as rather being
like one long story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. In the
fandom there might be quite a lot of disagreement on what the end is or
should be; but, I think we can all agree that you can't take a BATB
episode from near the end of the series and put it at the beginning, or
even the end, and have it make sense. With some series you can do this
and television stations running synicated programs like that kind of
series; but, that is not BATB.
northsider
To continue what I was saying about episodes being taken in context and
the evolution of Vincent and Catherine's relationship: IMO Vincent was
in love with Catherine from the "get go" but not prepared for a physical
relationship with her or any other women. I think that to some degree
throughout the series, but especially in the beginning, there was so
much going on in Catherine's life she was not ready for any kind of
relationship - especially one which would take the degree of work and
committment that one with Vincent would require. Plus she just simply
did not see Vincent as husband, or even boyfriend, material. :) IMO
there are a number of reasons for this. One of them was, of course, a
primal fear of someone so "different." Other reasons IMO were social
and economic. Let us admit it, Vincent was not of Catherine's "class."
That this played a part in the relationship, does not make Catherine a
bigot. It was just simply a recognition that, in order to be with
Vincent, Catherine would have to step across a chasm far larger and more
wrought with danger than anything having to do with sex.
IMO, always but especially during the first season, Catherine was
wrestling with these issues although slowly inching closer and closer to
Vincent!
In TLBL Catherine tells Vincent that how they felt about each other was
their true bond. I agree; and, it was love which said, as Teri quotes
the hologram in an original "Star Trek" episode, "I am for you!" Or as
Vincent said in TRIH "There is a truth beyond knowledge; and that truth
is love."
Just as there as many kinds of love, there are many kinds of romantic
love. To use an analogy: all love requires cultivation; but, some love
is planted whereas some love arrives on the wind to grow in any fertile
soil it finds.
I think what Vincent and Catherine felt for each other arrived on the
wind; and, the fertile soil it found was Catherine's need and Vincent's
empathy.
I don't agree with some fans who think that Vincent was unhappy and
unfullfilled before he met Catherine. He had his hurts, problems, and
"hangups." Don't we all. But Vincent had found a place with people he
cared about and who cared for him. That is a lot more than a lot of
people have! It is true that Vincent seems to have ruled out anything
more than a "platonic" relationship with a woman. I am sure that he had
his fantasies; but, just not being able to fulfill one particular
fantasy don't not mean you can't have a happy life. I guess I am enough
of the "old school" to think that even includes sex. Nowadays, we have
it pushed at us, from every conceivable corner, that if we do not have a
"significant other" in our lives than that life is miserable and
unhappy, that we are going to die an early death and all kinds of
terrible things. I disagree. I don't think Vincent was really unhappy
and unfullfilled before he met Catherine although I do think he had
developed the habit somewhat of living through others. His empathic
abilities almost guaranteed that; but, most of us, in one way or
another, live through others. That is what makes it possible for us to
give to others and even sacrifice. This is what we mean when we talk
about receiving through giving.
I think the knowledge he had been left in the garbage to die was one of
the big hurts in Vincent's life. I think that when Vincent found
Catherine lying there in the park, thrown away like so much garbage,
left to die, her face all "messed up", Vincent strongly identified with
her; and, then his empathic powers came into play, so that the two
became "one."
Problem is that in order to be "together" you have to be two, not one!
This is something Vincent seems to have realized in encouraging
Catherine to seek her own identity.
Catherine OTOH seems to not have had her own identity, especially one
with any sort of direction. She needed that identity and direction;
and, I think, strongly felt the need, even if she were not aware of it.
Catherine is IMO a marvelously complicated character, much more so than
Vincent. We all swoon over Vincent, me as much as anyone; but, I see
Catherine as the really interesting one.
So, during the first season, I see Vincent as in love with Catherine
from OUATINTC on; and, I think that love had a strong physical
component, a strong physical component that Vincent was only too aware
of; but, one which he found easy to control because he found no
answering response in Catherine whose emotions at times he found
difficult to separate from his own.
Catherine OTOH had just been brutally attacked. She was trying to deal
with that, trying to make a new life for herself; and, in so doing,
"find herself." She couldn't be with anyone until she could be with
herself.
Even as Vincent lost his identity within Catherine needs he encouraged
her to find her own identity perhaps partly because he felt that to be
the only way for him to regain his. At any rate, Catherine needed that
encouragement and understanding, and the seed of love found fertile soil
within her as well as within Vincent.
northsider
I certainly think that this was a "turning point" episode. It marked the
beginning of V&C as a committed couple.
Dealing with her mixed feelings about her relationship with Vincent is
beginning to get to Catherine. The sad memories surrounding the
anniversary of her mother's death are a catalyst for all her mixed
feelings to arise and demand that they be dealt with in one way or
another.
But Catherine is unable to do so. She still looks for someone to make
the decisions for her; but, Vincent cannot decide for her. He can only
decide for himself that, since the relationship causes Catherine so much
pain, it must end.
Catherine goes to stay with her friend Nancy Tucker; and, while she is
there, she has a dream which I think to most fans is one of the best
moments in the whole series. I like that dream sequence too; but, IMO
it shows that, as far as her relationship with Vincent goes, Catherine
is still not completely there.
She dreams of being with him in the sun which means to me that she has
not reconciled herself to living what she considers a life in the
shadows.
She and Vincent start to kiss; but, the kiss is interupted when another
man suddenly takes Vincent's place and she sees Vincent walking away.
This obviously disturbs her; but, it was her dream and the fact that she
could not quite bring herself to kiss him yet, even in a dream, to me
speaks volumes.
Still the facts are that, after a bit of timely advice from Nancy,
Catherine decides to go back to Vincent; or, in a more symbolic fashion,
to go after the figure of Vincent walking sadly away from her in her
dream.
IMO, even at that point, Catherine was not yet ready for a physical
relationship with Vincent as far as actually wanting one went; but, she
was prepared to have one if that is what he wanted and her past
experiences with men had most likely taught her that Vincent would
probably want to consumate the relationship soon after her return.
I think she was ready to do so. However, Vincent was not.
northsider
During the first part of the second season, the V/C relationship was
almost in a "holding pattern." The relationship was not consumated. I
think that Catherine probably thought that Vincent made no moves in that
direction because he sensed her reluctance. It probably made her feel
guilty.
I think Vincent did sense Catherine's reluctant; and, it was part of the
reason why there was no consumation; but, there was another reason, a
much deeper reason, Vincent's own fears; and, about them Catherine never
had a clue, never really did; I don't think.
This is hard to explain; but, IMO Catherine's biggest failing was that
she was not a naturally empathic person which is to say she seems to
have been incapable of emotionally understanding that which she had not
personally experienced; intellectual understanding yes, emotional
understanding no; and, she didn't naturally catch on either, it had to
be "spelled out" for her! She was willing to listen though and try to
understand as best she could.
Vincent OTOH was very empathic, caught on quickly as to how people
really felt about things; but, he was unwilling to talk about his own
pain. This did not make it easy for Catherine whose own personal
experiences had been so different from Vincent's.
During the first showing of the episode "Siege" I remember V&C to talk
about her relationship with Elliot Burch. I was shocked by her
statement that even if she did fall in love with Elliot it would make no
difference in her relationship with Vincent. It struck me as a very
cruel thing to say; and, yet even then I could see that it was very
typical of Catherine's character to say something like that and not have
a clue as to why it was such a cruel thing to say.
I also realized that if Catherine ever did reach a point where she
wanted to be with Vincent in a physical way, Vincent would not be able
to handle it!
I didn't know about Lisa at the time; but, I know that our personalities
and fears form early in childhood and stay with us the rest of our
lives. We often learn to manage the unfortunate things we have learned
in childhood; but, we never lose them.
Children are very cruel to those they perceive as "different;" and, that
is putting it mildly. A "different" child's life is often turned into a
living hell by other children. Vincent was different. With the other
boys the cruelty was mostly physical and he could handle that; but, with
girls the abuse is generally verbal and emotional. For someone as
sensitive as Vincent, that was where the real damage occurred; and, what
is more because they were girls, the damage to Vincent was internalized
in a sexual way. Vincent saw himself as undesirable to girls and women.
He believed that no woman would ever want him in that way. He feared
being rejected by one on account of the pain he had felt as a boy, a
pain which was reinforced by Lisa.
Some fans have wondered exactly what Vincent saw in Lisa. I think that
he saw her acceptance of him and willingness to be with him, something
that was, in all probability, not true of any other girl. When Lisa
turned from Vincent, it was probably predominately because she was a
young girl unready for anything more than a simple tease; but, it really
hurt Vincent, bringing back all his boyhood and adolescent pain, a pain
which Vincent tends to internalize. So he blamed himself for the
incident focusing on the little scratch on Lisa's back.
It is said that women project anger inward and men project it outward.
As a rule, I think this is generally true; but, Vincent is a man who
projects his anger and pain inward, perhaps because he is afraid of what
might happen if he lets it out.
So what was Vincent afraid of with Catherine, that if he totally let go
of himself that all the pain and hurt might come out, like maybe it does
when he "beasts out" and he might hurt Catherine? Maybe; but, IMO
Vincent's real fear was simply fear of rejection, rejection from the one
person he loved above all others.
His fear was so strong that he couldn't allow himself to believe that
Catherine might be willing, that she might even want him; better to not
listen to the bond, better to just tell himself that she was not ready,
that maybe someday....better to live in that fantasy world of someday
than risk the possibility of rejection.
Teri
tap:
Yes, I agree, Sandra. He's so certain no women could have these feelings
for him or could ever get past his looks. Thank god for the dramatic
vehicle of Lisa and his past or it would almost be impossible for this fan,
at least, to beleive how totally clueless he is in this regard. Luckily
that dramatic setup is there - and Koslow did an excellent job in this
regard, imo. That vehicle is one of the main factors that drives and
maintains the delicious tension between V&C. The emotional intensity
generated by Vincent's need to distance himself from her physically, while
the bond drives him closer and closer to her emotionally, is amazingly
erotic and romantic both. What a great combination!
Catherine and Vincent, together forever!
Teri
Check out http://www.rtchaos.com/cabb/cabb.html for Classic BATB stuff!
(stories under the 'Tunnel Tales' and 'Sampler' links)
> Sandra:
> I think that Catherine did fear Vincent; but, she began to lose that
> fear in the latter part of the second season. IMO this is one thing
> that contributed to Vincent's "breakdown." As long as Catherine was
> not ready for a physical relationship; Vincent could hide behind that;
Teri
> Tina:
> I definitely agree. I felt second season was a great evolution process
in
> their relationship at least on Catherine's part. You could just see a
gradual
> change in Catherine's attitude towards their relationship as compared to
1st
> season. A lot of this evolution comes from the promise made in A Happy
Life.
tap:
I think Catherine realizes a large part of what she feels for Vincent -
along with the impact of this in light of the bond - by Shades of Grey.
Much of the evolution we see thereafter, imo, is her allowing little bits
and peices of her feelings to be more fully exposed to Vincent. I think
she's well aware of how the very idea of her loving him - of being *in*
love with him, and all that implies - frightens him, and I believe she's
being judicious in her revevealing of those emotions, for his sake. she's
trying to take it slowly, to ease him through his discomfort, and IMO, it's
working. Vincent starts out determined to keep certain limitations between
them, convinced that no matter what the evidence of his senses tell him,
her destiny *must* lie with another. As time goes on, we see this
certainty falling away little by little, in small enough progressions so
that I'm not completely sure he's even aware that it's happening - until
it's too late. I think this is Catherine's doing, and brava! I say to her
:>
> And I agree that as long as Catherine wasn't ready for the physical
> relationship, Vincent could hide behind that. And I think he was hiding
behind
> it. He did not want to believe that Catherine could "desire" him in the
same
> way he "desired" her. But as second season was coming to a close,
Catherine
> was definitely "desiring" him. I wanted to see them confront this issue
head
> on.
tap:
Yes, she definitely was! Again, though, I think she's just finally
reaching a stage where she can't (or won't) hide it from him anymore. I
can't discount the cumulative effect of the bond on them over time either.
I really believe the bond is there for a reason related to them both, and
is separate and apart from Vincent's own empathic insight. I like that
'conflict' being there, though, because it provides the ability to
'misdirect' as it were, and allow them (and us) to think one thing is
happening when it perhaps turns out to be something else entirely. They
can be lulled into a false sense of security - especially Vincent -
thinking he has complete control, when, IMO, nothing could be further from
the truth, and the truth will out eventually... :>
> Second season brought about an examination of those fears.
> The episodes "The Outsiders" and "Arabesque" begin to examine the fears
that
> Vincent has had to live with all his life.
> That is why I love those episodes. Catherine is trying so hard to reach
him in
> those episodes. She so desperately wants him to know that she does love
him.
tap:
Yes, these are moments when she absolutely can't maintain the emotional
distance she knows Vincent has required of her in the past. It's not her
own discomfort which forces her outside the normal barriers she's silently
agreed to, but Vincent's. She can't let me feel this hopelessness about
himself, it's too painful and too groundless. She has to comfort him and
give him hope, even though she knows this too will increase his discomfort
level. It's a trade off, but there's a point beyond which there is no
subterfuge. She loves him - is *in* love with him - and she knows he feels
the same way. She'll go along with him in pretending some things for some
time, to help ease him past his fears, but it's not a bottomeless well and
she doesn't have infinite patience - thank god!
> That's why I will never understand how "Arabesque" could not have ended
with a
> kiss. After their discussion on the balcony, what better way is there to
prove
> to Vincent that she not only loves him but is "in love" with him
physically,
> emotionally and any other way you care to approach it. That she does
"desire"
> him. She is not afraid to love him and to be loved by him.
tap:
I did love the way she kissed his hands. Vincent fears so much in this
regard, but these thoughts are intensely personal and intimate. Though the
love they share is extreme, in the absence of a physical relationship, and
given Vincent's unique makeup and past history, the disclosure of all his
fears in specific detail, in certain and clear terms, is absolutely
impossible for him - it's completely beyond him at this point. He uses his
hands and the example with Lisa to try and portray the depth of his fears,
but it's the best he can do at this point in their relationship. Even that
is difficult, though he knows his nails are the obvious first choice given
what CAtherine has already experienced with him (i.e. the rescue/protect
moments) I think Catherine knows this is single focused disclosure is only
a symbol for much, much more left still unsaid, and by kissing his hands is
trying to tell him that she knows and accepts this, and I think she's
trying to tell him, by implication, that she accepts all of him, if he will
only give her the chance he too, will know that.
> The fact that they don't kiss almost seems like a cop-out to me. As if
> Catherine is not completely and totally in love with him. That balcony
scene
> is an opportunity waiting to happen to express their passion in the most
> intense way possible in a very emotional time. Emotional times call for
> emotional responses. What could be more emotionally fulfilling (for both
of
> them) and passionately uplifting than a kiss! <G>
tap:
I agree with some of Koslow's 'step-backs', but I also think he was not
above the cop-out moments. Linda Hamilton and the female writers from the
show have all made comments in regards to this issue. They seemed to see
the same thing so many of the female viewing audience saw, and tried to be
advocates for us (and it sounds like themselves, as they really appeared to
be fans of the story itself, beyond their own day to day involvement in the
work of it). Koslow just didn't want to hear it. He discounted them the
same way he discounted us - to his dismay in retrospect, I'm sure.
> Sometimes you not only have to talk the talk but walk the walk as it
were! <G>
> Hence, the reasons I feel LH got so frustrated with her character before
she
> left the show. You can't have Catherine consoling him and being there
for him
> and telling him that she does "love" him as in "The Outsiders" and not
back it
> up. You gotta put your money where your mouth is!!!!! <G> :-)
> You can still create sexual tension along the way. There were many
complex
> issues involved in their relationship and they certainly weren't going to
> overcome those issues with just one tender kiss. But, hey, it would have
been
> a start towards reaching the end of the rainbow.
tap:
Yup, yup, yup!!! LH said as much several times in interviews.
> Half the fun is in the journey. And I would have stayed riveted to my TV
to
> see what might happen next. <G>
tap:
Me too, as long as it was Vincent and Catherine continuing on with the
exploration of what their 'happy life' together might entail :>
> Just as with the kiss in Orphans, I am of the opinion that no one in
fandom
> seems to believe that for a moment that kiss took away from the sexual
tension
> between them. Everyone seems to accept that kiss (even if it is a kiss
of
> thanks) for what it is and judges it accordingly. But no one seems to
mind
> that the kiss happened at least from what I can tell. The one step
forward,
> two steps back approach that Koslow took was certainly working to his
advantage
> but there are moments I, for one, (and I'm sure I'm not the only one
here)
> believe that Koslow could have allowed the passion to escalate just a
tad on
> the richter scale. All I'm talking about is a real kiss here. No fake
outs
> and no image kisses.
tap:
I agree completely. A kiss is not sexual intercourse, though I think it
could have taken on some large part of the emotional intensity usually
reserved for outright lovemaking between other dramatic characters less
richly and emotionally tied to each other. It would have provided a huge
supply of satisfaction to the viewers while still leaving lots and lots of
sexual tension, because after all, no matter how much emotion there is in
it, we're all adults, and we know a kiss is just the beginning. He could
have milked that vehicle for some much, but was thinking of how men view
romance, and gave us instead the action/adventure, as if that alone would
be an acceptable substitue.
> I will now step off of my soapbox and remember to breathe! Somedays, I
just
> care too much about what could have been with this show and it makes me a
> little nuts!
tap:
Me too. The answer is to fix it yourself with fanfic, Tina. Give it a
try!
> Tina (defending truth, justice, and the right to have V & C kiss under
any
> circumstances! <G> :-) There is a truth beyond knowledge and that truth
is
> love!)
tap:
I'm with you completely. There *is* a truth beyond knowledge for these two
people, no matter what they say or do or even convince themselves of, and
that truth is love, eternal, destined, and inevitable.
Tiptree3
EJ writes:
<<
He might have. Vincent is an archetype--I mean the "Beast" is. I remember
when I was a little girl swooning (well, maybe not swooning, but really liking)
the Cupid & Psyche story, which is basically Beauty and the Beast. It had long
been my favorite fairy tale. And I was always annoyed at the end when the
Beast turned into a lame-o prince!
>>
Imagine the level of annoyance if they had tried to do something like that with
this series! Say, Vincent transforms into a "handsome" prince as part of a
"happily ever after" end to the series. Of course, there was plenty of
annoyance with the way they did end the V and C story.
Alan
Tiptree3
Sandra writes:
<<
Catherine goes to stay with her friend Nancy Tucker; and, while she is
there, she has a dream which I think to most fans is one of the best
moments in the whole series.
>>
I am definitely one of those fans who thinks this dream is one of the best
moments in the series..
Sandra again:
<<
I like that dream sequence too; but, IMO
it shows that, as far as her relationship with Vincent goes, Catherine
is still not completely there.
She dreams of being with him in the sun which means to me that she has
not reconciled herself to living what she considers a life in the
shadows.
>>
I had never thought of this before, but I do believe you're right!
Sandra again:
<<
She and Vincent start to kiss; but, the kiss is interupted when another
man suddenly takes Vincent's place and she sees Vincent walking away.
This obviously disturbs her; but, it was her dream and the fact that she
could not quite bring herself to kiss him yet, even in a dream, to me
speaks volumes.
>>
Well, yes (had never thought of this before, either), but it also speaks
volumes when Catherine says "Vincent, you are so beautiful" and "I love you so
much" (and she says those sentences with such conviction!). I think this
speaks to an impassioned realization/acceptance/conviction (no more doubts)
that this "beast" IS her "Prince Charming." When she sees Vincent walking away
from her, she feels a terrible sense of loss not unlike the one she felt at the
beginning of the episode when waking from the dream of her mother.
Sandra again:
<<
Still the facts are that, after a bit of timely advice from Nancy,
Catherine decides to go back to Vincent; or, in a more symbolic fashion,
to go after the figure of Vincent walking sadly away from her in her
dream.
>>
Yes, though I think the dream was the key (not suggesting you're arguing
otherwise) to her realizing that "What we have is all that matters! It's worth
everything!" Nancy provided some emotional and practical reassurance.
Alan
Tiptree3
Tina writes:
<<
Just as with the kiss in Orphans, I am of the opinion that no one in fandom
seems to believe that for a moment that kiss took away from the sexual tension
between them. Everyone seems to accept that kiss (even if it is a kiss of
thanks) for what it is and judges it accordingly. But no one seems to mind
that the kiss happened at least from what I can tell. The one step forward,
two steps back approach that Koslow took was certainly working to his advantage
but there are moments I, for one, (and I'm sure I'm not the only one here)
believe that Koslow could have allowed the passion to escalate just a tad on
the richter scale. All I'm talking about is a real kiss here. No fake outs
and no image kisses.
>>
I'm not quite as dogmatic on this issue as I've likely seemed to be. It's true
I've never had a problem with the "Orphans" kiss (Hey, I'm on record on the
AOL board as calling it the most memorable screen kiss I've ever seen!) . I
suppose I wouldn't have had a big problem with a kiss offered as comfort (and
shyly accepted, perhaps) in some of the situations that have been mentioned in
this forum in the recent past. But once V and C have a big, passionate
make-out session sort of kiss (with eager participation from both of them), I
think they've crossed a serious line. It's a different series at that point,
and there is no going back. I betcha a lot of fans were hoping for a big
romantic kiss when V and C were sitting on that bench at the end of "Masques."
Don't think many of you were screaming, "Don't kiss him! Don't kiss him!" at
your TV sets.<G> (Okay, I was probably hoping for a kiss, too. Didn't know any
better.) I think we can all agree now that it would not have served the series
well for V and C to have kissed at that point.
On the one hand, Tina, you like to say kissing wouldn't have changed things
much. On the other hand, you desperately wanted them to kiss. I think there
is some kind of contradiction there. I think the kissing issue was such an
area of focus because crossing the barrier would have meant so much to
Catherine and (especially!!!) Vincent. Even the "Orphans" kiss was a big deal
to C (watch how she has to work up her courage) and, I'm sure, V (bet he didn't
get much sleep that night!).
Teri writes:
<< A kiss is not sexual intercourse, though I think it
could have taken on some large part of the emotional intensity usually
reserved for outright lovemaking between other dramatic characters less
richly and emotionally tied to each other.>>
I absolutely agree with with this sentence! Other screen couples get the hots
for each other and are kissing in no time. There can be a lot of drama on the
road from kissing to sexual intercourse as they work out whether they are truly
"in love" or "meant" for each other. Vincent and Catherine are deeply in love
before the first kiss. Once they are passionately kissing the most intense
drama (of this nature) is behind them.
Teri continues:
<<
It would have provided a huge supply of satisfaction to the viewers while
still leaving lots and lots of sexual tension, because after all, no matter how
much emotion there is in it, we're all adults, and we know a kiss is just the
beginning.
>>
This is where I have my doubts! Once V and C start passionately kissing, I
think they have emotionally gotten beyond the "although we cannot be
together..." part of Catherine's opening narration, and (I fear) we're left
with only slightly more sexual tension than "Ozzie and Harriet." An
exaggeration, perhaps, but this is the fear that has made me argue the kissing
issue the way I have. And remember that Koslow and Co. were probably hoping
for a 22-episode 3rd season (with V and C) as the second season unfolded. The
closer V and C become, the more the series (I think) has to rely on guest and
peripheral characters for drama.
Sandra writes:
<<
Some people seem to think that BATB was in a bit of a rut
during the second season; but, I think that there was quite a lot going
on in the relationship and in the evolution of the characters. I also
think that everything which happened in BATB has to be taken in the
context of when it happened in the series. With a lot of series,
episodes can be taken out of context; but, not with BATB. It is like a
soap opera in that way, although I like to think of it as rather being
like one long story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. In the
fandom there might be quite a lot of disagreement on what the end is or
should be; but, I think we can all agree that you can't take a BATB
episode from near the end of the series and put it at the beginning, or
even the end, and have it make sense. With some series you can do this
and television stations running synicated programs like that kind of
series; but, that is not BATB.
>>
Imagine if "A Happy Life" had been, say, episode #20, and "Seige" had been
episode #21<G>. On the subject of episode order, I understand that "A
Children's Story" was originally meant to be episode #2. I'm glad they moved
it back to #10 because it seems clear to me that Catherine sees Vincent as
boyfriend material here. V and C have the conversation where Vincent says he
feels "great pain" when reminded of a "life that can never be." Catherine
tells him, "So do I." Later Catherine is at a party on a date with a guy named
Greg. She reveals to a girlfriend that, while Greg is "a really nice guy,"
there is "no chemistry." The implication one gets is that her feelings for
Vincent have ruined any chance for her to feel "chemistry" with another man.
All this heartened me greatly at the time, and I certainly think it would have
been wrong for "Siege" to come after this episode. Sandra, I know you've
mentioned that Koslow, GRRM and Co. weren't happy with "A Children's Story." I
suppose they might have moved it back because they didn't want to broadcast an
inferior episode so early. But in any case I'm glad they moved it back. I
understand WGN is broadcasting it in the #2 position, and I think that's
unfortunate.
Sandra, I greatly enjoyed your analysis of the evolution of V and C's
relationship, and especially your analysis of the evolution of Catherine's
attitudes toward Vincent and the relationship!
Alan
northsider
Teri wrote:
>
> tap:
> Yes, I agree, Sandra. He's so certain no women could have these feelings
> for him or could ever get past his looks. Thank god for the dramatic
> vehicle of Lisa and his past or it would almost be impossible for this fan,
> at least, to beleive how totally clueless he is in this regard.
I don't think that Vincent is dumb. His ideas about his comparative
attractiveness to women did not come from out of nowhere. I think that
experience had already taught him that most girls and women WOULD NOT
get beyond his looks. Just because we think Vincent is beautiful does
not mean that most women would.
His experience with Lisa would not have affected him so if his other
experiences with girls had been of a more positive nature.
As for us fans, we were prepared to see Vincent as the romantic lead.
Catherine was not. I am willing to bet that most of us have somewhat
offbeat taste in men anyway. I know that I do. As far as looks go, I
don't go for traditionally handsome men. OTOH I know that most women
do, especially young girls. They like their boys pretty, almost
girlishly pretty! :)
northsider
> Nancy provided some emotional and practical reassurance.
>
> Alan
Some good advice too! For every road not taken, there will generally be
a lot of "what ifs" and some regrets; but, we do have to take one road
or another; and, if we have not taken thr road we decide on, we would
always wonder and have regrets about it too. That is part of the paradox
of life.
There have been a number of fanfic stories written in which V&C break up
at some point in the relationship and years later they always regret and
wonder "What if?"
--
EJohnson7
Alan writes:
Alan >>
There is a story called Mr. & Mrs. Lion by Angela_______, her last name just
suddenly, absolutely, escaped me! (I want to say Davis?) In which she retells
the Beauty & the Beast story. The Beast does not transform at the end--but
Beauty changes and begins to see that what she saw as beastly characteristics
are now comforting, loving ones. It's the ultimate beauty in the eye of the
beholder story. *And* the ultimate what's inside is what counts story.
Eliana
EJohnson7
Sandra writes:
<<As for us fans, we were prepared to see Vincent as the romantic lead.
Catherine was not. I am willing to bet that most of us have somewhat
offbeat taste in men anyway. I know that I do. As far as looks go, I
don't go for traditionally handsome men. OTOH I know that most women
do, especially young girls. They like their boys pretty, almost
girlishly pretty! :)
>>
y'know, I never thought about it, but you're right! I *don't* go for
traditionally handsome men. I wonder if that bears out across B&B fandom? As
far as "pretty boys" go--I had a hard time taking Leonardo DiCapprio as
romantic lead in Titanic 'cause he's so pretty.
Eliana
northsider
There may be exceptions although I have not met any in my seven years
talking about anything and everything in the online BATB fandom.
I have not seen "Titanic." That would be rather hard for me to do; but,
I will probably somehow get the video since I have had a lifelong
interest in the Titanic. I am not sure I need a juvenile love story
with its pretty boy lead though. I don't like 'em wet behind the ears
either; but, we'll see. :)
The other day, on "The Gayle King Show" two of the guests were women
whose great grandfather had died on "The Titanic." They said that their
great grandmother never talked about it. In fact, a great many of the
survivors never talked about it.
This was typical behavior of several generations previous to our own.
The attitude was that you should not talk about unhappy things,
especially really unhappy things. They were almost superstitious about
it.
And it seems to me that some of that attitude existed among the
characters of BATB. For instance, those around Catherine always
referred to what happened to Catherine in the park as "her accident."
It was no accident! Vincent was reluctant to talk about his pain of
being different and all that that meant. Father did not talk about what
had happened to him before he had come Below. For a long time what had
happened with John Pater seemed to have been a taboo subject, then when
he reappeared so that he could no longer be ignored, the whole thing
seems to have been turned into a fable of sorts.
One of the things which Vincent and Catherine seem to have had in common
was that they both lived in social milieus that had many of the mores of
the past. I attribute this to Catherine's world of old money; and well,
no one ever accused the TunnelWorld of being in tune with the times. :)
Still I know that it would have been a good idea if V&C had put down the
book of poetry and had some heart to heart talks instead!
TCramer124
>Tina wrote:
><<
>Just as with the kiss in Orphans, I am of the opinion that no one in fandom
seems to believe that for a moment that kiss took away from the sexualtension
between them. Everyone seems to accept that kiss (even if it is a kiss of
thanks) for what it is and judges it accordingly. But no one seems to mind
that the kiss happened at least from what I can tell. The one step forward,
two steps back approach that Koslow took was certainly working to his
here) believe that Koslow could have allowed the passion to escalate just a
tad on the richter scale. All I'm talking about is a real kiss here. No fake
outs and no image kisses.>>
>
<<I'm not quite as dogmatic on this issue as I've likely seemed to be. It's
true I've never had a problem with the "Orphans" kiss (Hey, I'm on record on
the AOL board as calling it the most memorable screen kiss I've ever seen!) .
I suppose I wouldn't have had a big problem with a kiss offered as comfort (and
shyly accepted, perhaps) in some of the situations that have been mentioned in
this forum in the recent past. But once V and C have a big, passionate
make-out session sort of kiss (with eager participation from both of them), I
think they've crossed a serious line. It's a different series at that point,
and there is no going back. I betcha a lot of fans were hoping for a big
romantic kiss when V and C were sitting on that bench at the end of "Masques."
Don't think many of you were screaming, "Don't kiss him! Don't kiss him!" at
your TV sets.<G> (Okay, I was probably hoping for a kiss, too. Didn't know any
better.) I think we can all agree now that it would not have served the series
well for V and C to have kissed at that point.>>
Tina responses:
Well, Alan, maybe it's just me but I just don't see how one good kiss somewhere
during one of the mid 2nd season episodes is going to hurt their relationship.
I can live with the "shadow kiss" in A Happy Life as a promise of things to
come. But I really believe that a kiss that they both wanted to have between
them sometime in 2nd season is appropriate. It gives you something to build on
for 3rd season.
In "Masques" it was way too early to even think about kissing. We weren't even
sure if C was in love with V until then. But I think 2nd season episodes such
as The Outsiders, A Kingdom By The Sea, A Distant Shore,and even When The
Bluebird Sings were good opportunities for a kiss to happen. Also, anytime
during the trilogy would have been fine by me. :-)
<<On the one hand, Tina, you like to say kissing wouldn't have changed things
much. On the other hand, you desperately wanted them to kiss. I think there
is some kind of contradiction there. I think the kissing issue was such an
area of focus because crossing the barrier would have meant so much to
Catherine and (especially!!!) Vincent. Even the "Orphans" kiss was a big
>deal to C (watch how she has to work up her courage) and, I'm sure, V (bet he
didn't get much sleep that night!).>>
But see Alan, you're missing my point. I think Koslow's one step forward/two
step back approach could have been applied to the kiss situation. Yes, the
Orphans kiss was a big deal for both of them and I love it dearly for the
tenderness and sweetness it conveys. But it's just one step forward.
But see Arabesque shows up a couple of episodes later and it's two steps back.
There is a situation where the kiss could have been used as a device to move
the relationship forward one more step. As I said before, the ending to
Arabesque is a perfect opportunity.
I know we'll never completely agree on this issue so I'm willing to call a
truce! <G>
>
>Teri wrote:
<< It would have provided a huge supply of satisfaction to the viewers while
still leaving lots and lots of sexual tension, because after all, no matter how
much emotion there is in it, we're all adults, and we know a kiss is just the
beginning.>>
I agree with Teri here. A kiss would have provided the satisfaction necessary
to maintaining a "what's gonna happen next" outlook for the future. You know a
kiss is just the beginning. The sexual tension road is a long and windy road
to travel.
Sandra writes:
><<
<<Some people seem to think that BATB was in a bit of a rut during the second
season; but, I think that there was quite a lot going on in the relationship
and in the evolution of the characters. >>
I agree too. Second season is still my favorite season. Any season that
could produce an episode like "Orphans" has to be my favorite.
I felt the relationship was constantly evolving and the secondary characters
were evolving as well. Second season provided a lot of texture for the series.
Tina
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Tina writes:
<<
I know we'll never completely agree on this (kissing) issue so I'm willing to
call a
truce! <G>
>>
Accepted! And I was ready to surrender and declare you the victor!<G> Well,
Tina, we're completely in agreement on where V and C should have ended up. We
just differ on details of the journey. And given the hindsight that the second
season was essentially V and C's last together, I can't really argue too much
with your ideas there. Okay, you already have the "Orphans" kiss. I'll give
you some kisses to the face (but not the lips) at the end of "Arabesque." Then
no more kissing until "A Kingdom by the Sea." After she tells Vincent "I
wished it was you" near the end of "A Kingdom by the Sea," you get a shyly
offered (and shyly accepted) kiss to the lips, though with a little more
staying power than the "Orphans" kiss. And as a reward for your patience, you
get a barn-burner near the end of "What Rough Beast."
Alan
TCramer124
Tina writes:
<<I know we'll never completely agree on this (kissing) issue so I'm willing to
call a truce! <G>>>
>
Alan responds:
<<Accepted! And I was ready to surrender and declare you the victor!<G>
Well,Tina, we're completely in agreement on where V and C should have ended
up.We just differ on details of the journey. And given the hindsight that the
second season was essentially V and C's last together, I can't really argue too
much
with your ideas there. Okay, you already have the "Orphans" kiss. I'll give
you some kisses to the face (but not the lips) at the end of "Arabesque."Then
no more kissing until "A Kingdom by the Sea." After she tells Vincent "I
wished it was you" near the end of "A Kingdom by the Sea," you get a shyly
offered (and shyly accepted) kiss to the lips, though with a little more
staying power than the "Orphans" kiss. And as a reward for your patience, you
get a barn-burner near the end of "What Rough Beast.">>
Tina responds:
LOL Alan!!!! And I agree....we know where we wanted this to lead....we just
wanted to take different paths to get there!
And I can live with the kissing scenes you've suggested above. I can accept
kisses on the hands and face in "Arabesque". (<-----insert cheers and tears
here!) I would do cartwheels over a kiss in "A Kingdom By The Sea". They both
desperately need one in that episode. "I wished that it was you."
<--------insert heavy sigh!!!!!! <G> :-) As soon as Catherine says that line
she should stand on tiptoes and let him have it! <G> Don't give Vincent a
chance to pull away. She should hold on to him and not let go. As Diana Ross
would say "Reach out and touch someone you love!" <G>
Please tell me I get my barn-burner (oooh, I love it!) in the tunnel scene
after Spirko has exposed them (where I've always wanted it!) "It must end
now!" And then Catherine says "No! Vincent kiss me!" instead of "Hold me!!"
And then she kisses him for all she's worth!!!! Another act of sheer
despiration! <G> Please!!!!! <G>
I could live with all the pain that comes afterwards in the rest of the trilogy
if I just had that one good kiss! Well, maybe not live with it but I'd be
able to sleep nights!!!! LOL!!! <G>
Tina (who would like to elect Alan as a honorary story editor of the show if I
could!!!!)
alt.tv.lois-n-clark.fanfic
Tiptree3
Tina writes:
<<
LOL Alan!!!! And I agree....we know where we wanted this to lead....we just
wanted to take different paths to get there!
And I can live with the kissing scenes you've suggested above. I can accept
kisses on the hands and face in "Arabesque". (<-----insert cheers and tears
here!) I would do cartwheels over a kiss in "A Kingdom By The Sea". They both
desperately need one in that episode. "I wished that it was you."
<--------insert heavy sigh!!!!!! <G> :-) As soon as Catherine says that line
she should stand on tiptoes and let him have it! <G> Don't give Vincent a
chance to pull away. She should hold on to him and not let go. As Diana Ross
would say "Reach out and touch someone you love!" <G>
>>
Hey! I said "shyly offered (and shyly accepted)." Now you're calling for her
to "beast out" on our noble shy hero! Well, there is just no pleasing some
people! Give them a lip and they want the whole mouth!
Tina continues:
<<
Please tell me I get my barn-burner (oooh, I love it!) in the tunnel scene
after Spirko has exposed them (where I've always wanted it!) "It must end
now!" And then Catherine says "No! Vincent kiss me!" instead of "Hold me!!"
And then she kisses him for all she's worth!!!! Another act of sheer
despiration! <G> Please!!!!! <G>
>>
Sure, as you like it. But I think I'd prefer she didn't verbalize it. I think
I'd rather that she give the "hold me one last time" line, and then shock him
(and us) with it.
Alan
Scamper22
In article <19980201054...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, tipt...@aol.com
(Tiptree3) writes:
>Sandra again:
<<
I like that dream sequence too; but, IMO
it shows that, as
>far as her relationship with Vincent goes, Catherine
is still not completely
>there.
She dreams of being with him in the sun which means to me that she
>has
not reconciled herself to living what she considers a life in
>the
shadows.
Well, that's not surprising to me that you would think that, Sandra. However,
Catherine never considered her relationship with Vincent as a reconciliation to
a "life in the shadows." Their lives were/are always in the light, whether
above or below, be it candlelight, or sunlight.
JoAnne