Newbie to Angel: Why did Doyle leave?
Count Floyd
What was the deal with that? I have seen later shows but am preferring to
try and get the whole show in sequence.
TIA
Kas
"Count Floyd" <sct...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4_Gdnejrz82...@adelphia.com...
He apparently had a drinking problem or something like that (but then when
any actor is removed thats usually one of the rumors floating around about
it anyways) so they let him go.
Though id also heard that they had actually intended to have one character
that wouldnt last out the entire season anyways so maybe the character was
designed specifically to be killed off by the end.
Terry
news:41901f4a$0$15438$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
Tragically, actor Glenn Quinn died not long after. It was very sad.
Watching that episode is very hard for me. The reasons why he was let go
are really just rumor and conjecture. Only a few people know for sure --
and no matter what they say now, rumors will never be quelled.
I, for one, still miss Glenn.
Terry
Ch...@nospam.com
<nykara@[NO-SPAM]optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "Count Floyd" <sct...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4_Gdnejrz82...@adelphia.com...
> > Just started watching Angel on TBS at 5, and today Doyle got killed off.
> > What was the deal with that? I have seen later shows but am preferring to
> > try and get the whole show in sequence.
> > TIA
> >
> >
>
> He apparently had a drinking problem or something like that (but then when
> any actor is removed thats usually one of the rumors floating around about
> it anyways) so they let him go.
it wasn't a rumor. I have friends that worked on the show. Glenn was
often late for makeup, hungover etc.
> Though id also heard that they had actually intended to have one character
> that wouldnt last out the entire season anyways so maybe the character was
> designed specifically to be killed off by the end.
>
>
this was also true. joss was planning to kill doyle when he first
created the character, but then the reaction to the character was very
good so he had second thoughts. But then Glenn started acting like an
ass, so Joss had third thoughts.
Richmond
> Tragically, actor Glenn Quinn died not long after. It was very sad.
> Watching that episode is very hard for me. The reasons why he was let go
> are really just rumor and conjecture. Only a few people know for sure --
> and no matter what they say now, rumors will never be quelled.
>
Still, you can't deny, for someone who was only in 9 episodes, he helped set
the tone of the entire series.
B.
Mikey
Spare me! The notion that they had intended to kill off a main
character at the start of a new series is ridiculous, lame-ass spin.
They had no choice but to fire someone who was unfortunately unable to
keep up with the work. You can be sure that the producers and the
network were shitting bricks over a character loss in a brand-new
series.
The Doyle character is a slight modification of Whistler, and was
obvioulsy supposed to continue as the "vision guy." Note that within a
few eps he was developing a relationship with Cordelia, introducing
Angel to the Oracles, dealing with his ex-wife, and so forth. Those
early shows were as much Doyle shows as Cordelia shows, Angel shows,
Kate shows, etc. And then the next day they bring in Wesley. It's
supposed to be a trio, and then of coursethey have to expand it with
more characters (and then some...).
--
No sig, no neuroses
Reginald Bautista
"Mikey" <exceptionsTa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2004113008144950073%exceptionsTakeThisOutDude@earthlinknet...
> Spare me! The notion that they had intended to kill off a main
> character at the start of a new series is ridiculous, lame-ass spin.
Except that they planned the exact same thing for Buffy. In the very first
episode, the character Jessie was supposed to be in the opening credits, so
that when he died by the end of the second half, people would know that the
show was not afraid to kill off a main-title character. I don't think he
actually got in the main credits, but I've read or seen interviews with Joss
Whedon where he says that was the plan. It may be in a commentary track on
the first season DVD, actually.
And then they had another major recurring character, the first principal,
who was hired with the idea that he would be killed early on, which happened
in the very first episode of Buffy that I happened to see, _The Pack_.
Having a main title character that is developed for part of a season and
then killed is clearly an idea that Whedon had been wanting to use for some
time before Angel. The spoiler that Doyle was going to be killed came out
originally as the first episode of Angel was being filmed, but got widely
ignored amid the flood of other rumors. It came out again a couple of weeks
before the episode _Hero_ aired, and that's when it got spread around the
whole net.
> They had no choice but to fire someone who was unfortunately unable to
> keep up with the work. You can be sure that the producers and the
> network were shitting bricks over a character loss in a brand-new
> series.
At that time, Whedon was a "golden boy" for the network, and any
publicity-getting idea like this would probably have been seen as a very
good ratings-getting gimmick by the network. And I've also read (although
I've never seen or heard it confirmed by Whedon) that he told them about the
idea of dramatically killing off a main character when he initially pitched
the show. Since one of the main themes of Angel as a series is "what it
takes to be a hero," showing someone heroic enough to sacrifice his life for
others is a great way to make a dramatic statement about that theme.
And clearly, after Wesley became as popular a character as he did in a very
short time on Buffy, Whedon would be stupid to not plan on including him in
the spinoff. Everybody hit it off with the actor (especially Ally Hannigan
who eventually married him), and Whedon clearly saw him functioning in the
Angel series in much the same way Cordelia functions, which is as a person
who comes in flawed but grows dramatically during the course of the series.
Doyle didn't really have that potential.
> The Doyle character is a slight modification of Whistler, and was
> obvioulsy supposed to continue as the "vision guy."
And if it had actually been Whistler instead of Doyle (if the Whistler actor
had been available), they would have done exactly the same thing. As far as
how much time they spent letting us get to know the character, Whedon or any
other good writer will tell you that if you kill a character that the
audience doesn't really know, it's no big deal. Whedon wanted Doyle's death
to be meaningful, and the only way to do that is to build him up as a
likeable person and get him nice and entangled with the other characters so
you can later play the drama of how they react to his loss. This is
especially clear in the relationship between Doyle and Cordy. It's classic
Whedon. The only reasons he ever gives a character a boyfriend or
girlfriend is for that boyfriend or girlfriend to eventually either die or
turn evil or be separated some other dramatic way from the main character.
Whedon has done this so many times it has become one of his signature plot
devices. You could turn it into a drinking game. He did it with Buffy and
Angel. He did it with Buffy and Riley. He did it with Buffy and Scott
Hope. He did it with Buffy and Parker. He did it with Willow and Oz twice,
first with Oz being a killer werewolf three days a month and then later with
the whole Veruca thing (although the reason for the Veruca arc was that Seth
Green asked to be written off the show to pursue his movie career). He did
it with Willow and Tara. He did it with Xander and Anya. He did it in much
compressed form with Xander and substitute teacher Natalie French (in one of
Buffy's all-time worst episodes, _Teacher's Pet_ from season 1), Xander and
Inca Mummy Girl, and Xander and Lyssa (in season 7's _First Date_). He did
it in reverse with Willow and Kennedy when Willow turned into Warren. He
did it with Spike and Drusilla. He did it with Wesley and Lilah, Gunn and
Fred, Wesley and Fred, Everybody and Fred... I could go on and on. It's
definitely right at the top of Whedon's favorite generic plot devices. The
fact that Doyle and Cordy were developing a relationship was a sure sign
that one of them was going to turn evil and/or die. That kind of plotting is
one of the few truly predictable elements of Whedon's writing and plotting
as a show runner.
Reggie
Deborah Martin
news:WQosd.5569$NO5....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Except that they planned the exact same thing for Buffy. In the very
> first
> episode, the character Jessie was supposed to be in the opening credits,
> so
> that when he died by the end of the second half, people would know that
> the
> show was not afraid to kill off a main-title character. I don't think he
> actually got in the main credits, but I've read or seen interviews with
> Joss
> Whedon where he says that was the plan. It may be in a commentary track
> on
> the first season DVD, actually.
Considering the premise (vampires & demons are real, Hellmouth under a
school, town built specifically for an ascension, etc.), it would be
illogical if they did not lose major characters along the way.
> Having a main title character that is developed for part of a season and
> then killed is clearly an idea that Whedon had been wanting to use for
> some
> time before Angel. The spoiler that Doyle was going to be killed came out
> originally as the first episode of Angel was being filmed, but got widely
> ignored amid the flood of other rumors. It came out again a couple of
> weeks
> before the episode _Hero_ aired, and that's when it got spread around the
> whole net.
I never heard those rumours. Indeed, I started watching Angel Season 1 on
Space (Canada) while Season 4 was unfolding. But as I wrote in another
thread, the first 9 eps. seemed done in a way to establish a special power
(visions) and then pass it on to Cordelia who was a mere mortal. When
Wesley showed up the next ep., I thought to myself that the actor had been
unavailable for the first two months of filming, hence Doyle who gives Cordy
his power and then dies. Many have argued otherwise but, to a newbie (at
the time), that is how it looked to me.
Deborah
Remove "&mizar" to respond