So why hasn't Jasmine's influence effected Sunnydale? (Future Angel/Buffy Spoilers)
Carmikl
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Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
problem.
So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
minions.
Buck Naked
Because the first is blocking the effect? The hellmouth has a 'magic
bubble' around Sunnydale?
liv
---------------------------
Because Jasmine isn't that powerful, yet. She apparently needs to be
well fed to transmit her influence over the radio/tv waves, and
fortifies herself beforehand. She has mentioned many times that 'she
can't do that herself, yet'. She apparently has the governor--who may
even be visiting LA, lord knows, it is a sort of disaster area at this
point. That doesn't mean she has the strength to take over all of
California.
Tomorrow, perhaps.
I think she isn't as powerful as she says she is, she needs followers
to make her powerful. As their numbers grow and she becomes more used
to this world, she gains strength.
liv
l...@garbage.ziplink.net
take out the garbage to reply...
If you can't beat your computer at chess try kickboxing.
DarkMagic
"Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:3EA7F858...@rcn.com...
Events in the Buffyverse are unfolding at a slower rate than those in L.A.
Faith has just arrived in Sunndydale, which puts events occurring there at
the same time as what was going on in L.A. three weeks ago. In other words,
in Sunnydale Jasmine is barely a glimmer in her mommy and daddy's eye.
--
Shannon
Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her."
Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"
the q is silent
Well, as someone already mentioned, Buffy and Angel aren't on the same
time schedule. Faith arrived in Sunnydale during "Dirty Girls," which
would place the episode around the time of "Players" and "Inside Out,"
just before Jasmine was born. So it'll be a little while in the
Buffyverse before one could even expect a Jasmine influence.
Also, from what few spoilers I've read about Buffy...
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Most of Sunnydale's residents evacuate at some point, and the power in
the city goes out at another. So not only would there be very few people
in town to fall under Jasmine's thrall, their TVs and radios won't be
broadcastign her love anyway.
--
Jyqm
"And so I've learned to retreat at the first sign of danger
I mean why wait around, if it's just to surrender
And ambition, I've found, can lead only to failure
I do not read the reviews
No, I am not singing for you"
Carmikl
leave LA if Jasmine is still a problem. Of course, if Angel was sent
back to LA to mobilize a second front against the First, then that
should influence Angel episodes.
Carmikl
Jasmine problem must have been resolved in LA.
DarkMagic
"Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:3EA81ED2...@rcn.com...
Angel appears in Sunnydale after the Jasmine arc has ended. Faith has just
arrived in Sunnydale, which means the gang at A.I. are struggling to
overcome the influence of the idiot spell. They have just figured out that
there is something unusual about Cordelia. No mention was made of LA's
extra long eclipse so don't count on any Jasmine commentary either.
Kenny Abernathy
Hmmm...we need a little fanwanking here. How about this...it seems
the First may have some powers related to the EM spectrum (CwDP).
Maybe the First doesn't want Jasmine's influence to reach to Sunnydale
and is blocking any signals that may be coming from LA, so all
Sunnydale residents get is bad reception, not a message of love.
Nixfamily2409
more Buffy's. Therefore, AtS ends before Buffy's finale so Jasmine has been
defeated thus freeing Angel to run to Buffy's aid.
Nix
Smaug69
Because the storylines of the two series are not going to cross. They
can't. The people that only watch BtVS or only watch AtS would be
scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on if the
storylines for each show intermeshed. For example, me. I have no idea
who Jasmine is or what sort of threat she poses to the gang on Angel.
Is ME really going to take time out of each series to explain what is
happening on the other series before they continue on? I don't think
so. And remember there has never been a crossover to BtVS of a
character that was created on AtS. Only Angel, Buffy and Faith have
come back after going to L.A and they were all created on BtVS.
The only thing I'm sure is going to happen is that Angel will end up
on BtVS for the series finale so there will be some kind of closure-
maybe- with the B/A relationship. So other than Angel saying, "Oh, we
had to deal with this Jasmine character- she wasn't fun," I don't
expect anything from AtS this season to leak into the Buffyverse.
Let's face it, we already have precedence for no inter-series info
swapping on BtVS the last two episodes: Willow not telling Buffy about
why she had to go to L.A. and then her and Faith saying nothing about
what went down during Willow's time there(at least onscreen and that's
all that counts).
Smaug69
liv
<slnosp...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>news:3EA81ED2...@rcn.com...
>> DarkMagic wrote:
>> >
>> > "Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>> > news:3EA7F858...@rcn.com...
>> > > Spoiler Space:
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>(snip)
>Angel appears in Sunnydale after the Jasmine arc has ended. Faith has just
>arrived in Sunnydale, which means the gang at A.I. are struggling to
>overcome the influence of the idiot spell. They have just figured out that
>there is something unusual about Cordelia. No mention was made of LA's
>extra long eclipse so don't count on any Jasmine commentary either.
-------------
I thought there was a brief mention of the eclipse.
Stephen Barker
Well, I've heard spoilers that later episodes of Buffy will have the
people of Sunnydale getting the heck out of dodge and leaving
Sunnydale. Maybe it's because of both the First and Jasmine's
influence. The First is scaring them out of town and they might see
Jasmine and LA as a refuge.
DarkMagic
"liv" <l...@ziplink.net> wrote in message
news:4qhgavgq2295jga78...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:43:26 -0400, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> >news:3EA81ED2...@rcn.com...
> >> DarkMagic wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:3EA7F858...@rcn.com...
> >> > > Spoiler Space:
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> >(snip)
> >Angel appears in Sunnydale after the Jasmine arc has ended. Faith has
just
> >arrived in Sunnydale, which means the gang at A.I. are struggling to
> >overcome the influence of the idiot spell. They have just figured out
that
> >there is something unusual about Cordelia. No mention was made of LA's
> >extra long eclipse so don't count on any Jasmine commentary either.
> -------------
> I thought there was a brief mention of the eclipse.
Mention of the eclipse was in one of the scripts. It wasn't actually ever
mentioned in an episode.
Mark Evans
> Spoiler Space:
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> Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
> before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> problem.
Did Buffy ever get a new TV.
> So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
Maybe living next to the Hellmouth, or the epidemic level of DDS (Demon
Denial Syndrome) renders them immune.
> That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> minions.
Assuming it didn't affect Caleb.
BTR1701
<m...@anacon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In alt.tv.angel Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > Spoiler Space:
> > Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> > that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
> > before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> > since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> > problem.
>
> Did Buffy ever get a new TV.
Not sure why that's relevant. The entire town of Sunnydale didn't watch
Buffy's TV. They have their own TVs.
William George Ferguson
Because it hasn't happened yet on Buffy?
The last Buffy took place at approximately the same time as Players, by
the internal references. For all we know, the next episode may still be
before Shiny Happy People, or it could be after the whole Jasmine bit.
Since I haven't seen it (nor have you), I don't know.
What's the point of criticizing a show for not showing something that
can't have happened yet on it.
--
You've reached the Tittles. We can't come to the phone right now
If you want to leave a message for Christine, Press 1
For Bentley, Press 2
Or to speak to, or worship, Master Tarfall, Underlord of Pain, Press 3
Jillun
Or we could just pay attention to continuity. The Buffy eps that have
aired are taking place before Jasmine was born, as has been noted a
few times by the brains in this thread. For future tense, getting
blown up will probably distract the Scoobies and the Notwannabes for a
while.
BTR1701
sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
> Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:<3EA7F858...@rcn.com>...
> > Spoiler Space:
> > Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> > that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to
> > Buffy before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> > since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> > problem.
> >
> > So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
> > That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> > minions.
>
> Because the storylines of the two series are not going to cross. They
> can't. The people that only watch BtVS or only watch AtS would be
> scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on if the
> storylines for each show intermeshed. For example, me. I have no idea
> who Jasmine is or what sort of threat she poses to the gang on Angel.
Well, then they really shouldn't have set these two shows in the same
universe at the same time with the characters from both shows jumping
back and forth between the two.
You can't do that and then ignore things like Jasmine's influence which
extends all the way to Sacramento on the Angel show, but completely
ignore it on the Buffy show while at the same time having characters
from both shows cross over to each other, underscoring that what happens
on one show is part of the same universe as the other.
That's highly illogical and bad storytelling. If they didn't want to
have to deal with these types of things, they should have set the two
storylines apart in time and avoided all the crossovers.
> And remember there has never been a crossover to BtVS of a
> character that was created on AtS.
Why is that relevant at all?
> Only Angel, Buffy and Faith have
> come back after going to L.A and they were all created on BtVS.
And don't forget Oz. He did the crossover thing also.
> The only thing I'm sure is going to happen is that Angel will end up
> on BtVS for the series finale so there will be some kind of closure-
> maybe- with the B/A relationship. So other than Angel saying, "Oh, we
> had to deal with this Jasmine character- she wasn't fun," I don't
> expect anything from AtS this season to leak into the Buffyverse.
Well, as you've said, you haven't watched Angel so you don't know that
Jasmine basically has the entire state of California under her thrall
right now. So for Angel to show up on the Buffy show in the context of
having dealt with that without any explanation whatsoever as to how and
why Sunnydale was somehow exempt from Jasmine's influence is silly.
Just because you refuse to watch Angel doesn't mean the storylines of
the two shows haven't purposely been intwetwined, especially this season.
> Let's face it, we already have precedence for no inter-series info
> swapping on BtVS the last two episodes: Willow not telling Buffy about
> why she had to go to L.A. and then her and Faith saying nothing about
> what went down during Willow's time there(at least onscreen and that's
> all that counts).
That's a lot different though. The way the story is unfolding on Angel,
it doesn't even require the characters to talk about it. According to
what's happening in the shared universe between the two shows,
*everyone* in California is under Jasmine's thrall. Therefore, the
people of Sunnydale, including Buffy, her friends and the potentials,
should be affected.
BTR1701
<slnosp...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:3EA7F858...@rcn.com...
> > Spoiler Space:
> > Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> > that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to
> > Buffy
> > before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> > since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> > problem.
> >
> > So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
> > That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> > minions.
>
> Events in the Buffyverse are unfolding at a slower rate than those in
> L.A. Faith has just arrived in Sunndydale, which puts events occurring there
> at the same time as what was going on in L.A. three weeks ago. In other
> words, in Sunnydale Jasmine is barely a glimmer in her mommy and daddy's eye.
Okay, then we'll see what happens in the next few episodes and then
revisit this question.
That'll give you time to think up your fanwank for when the Buffy
timeline catches up and there's *still* no sign of Jasmine's influenece.
;-)
Michael Ikeda
news:BTR1702-95CB2D...@nntp.ix.netcom.com:
Unless the First and Jasmine are the same power, I can easily
think of one obvious possibility.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Carmikl
>
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:44:40 -0700, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> >Spoiler Space:
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >;
> >Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> >that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
> >before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> >since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> >problem.
> >
> >So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
> >That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> >minions.
>
> Because it hasn't happened yet on Buffy?
>
> The last Buffy took place at approximately the same time as Players, by
> the internal references. For all we know, the next episode may still be
> before Shiny Happy People, or it could be after the whole Jasmine bit.
And if it's after the whole Jasmine bit, her influence should have been
felt in Sunnydale.
> Since I haven't seen it (nor have you), I don't know.
>
> What's the point of criticizing a show for not showing something that
> can't have happened yet on it.
As it said in the subject line, "Future Angel Buffy/Spoilers". I also
pointed out that Angel will be in Sunnydale in a couple of episodes, and
he wouldn't leave LA if the Jasmine problem wasn't resolved. The
timelines will intersect.
BTR1701
<mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
Oh, I'm sure there are lots of possibilities. It's the fact that in all
likelihood the issue won't even be addressed that's rather silly.
Mark London
->> >> > So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the
->> >> > brain yet? That would create the perfect set of circumstances
->> >> > for Caleb and his minions.
One possible reason is that the influence of Hellmouth offsets her effect on
people. I.e., she has no power over evil, at least here on earth in her human
form. She takes away pain and creates happiness. Hellmouth does the exact
opposite.
Mark London
M...@PSFC.MIT.EDU
Smaug69
> In article <5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com>,
> sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
>
> > Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > news:<3EA7F858...@rcn.com>...
> > > Spoiler Space:
>
> > > Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> > > that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to
> > > Buffy before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> > > since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
> > > That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> > > minions.
> >
> > Because the storylines of the two series are not going to cross. They
> > can't. The people that only watch BtVS or only watch AtS would be
> > scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on if the
> > storylines for each show intermeshed. For example, me. I have no idea
> > who Jasmine is or what sort of threat she poses to the gang on Angel.
>
> Well, then they really shouldn't have set these two shows in the same
> universe at the same time with the characters from both shows jumping
> back and forth between the two.
Actually, there has only been one character from AtS that crossed to
BtVS and he was on BtVS for 3 seasons before he left. No other
character from AtS has appeared on BtVS(Faith is from BtVS).
> You can't do that and then ignore things like Jasmine's influence which
> extends all the way to Sacramento on the Angel show, but completely
> ignore it on the Buffy show while at the same time
Can you tell me which BtVS episode where we see this influence? Until
I see something onscreen in a BtVS episode then it's not happening in
the Buffyverse.
> having characters
> from both shows cross over to each other, underscoring that what happens
> on one show is part of the same universe as the other.
The only storyline that crossed over was the 4th season Faith
mini-arc. And unless you actually watched those Angel episodes you
have no idea what happened other than Angel and Buffy had some words
and hit each other.
> That's highly illogical and bad storytelling. If they didn't want to
> have to deal with these types of things, they should have set the two
> storylines apart in time and avoided all the crossovers.
Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
characters.
> > And remember there has never been a crossover to BtVS of a
> > character that was created on AtS.
>
> Why is that relevant at all?
Jasmine is an AtS creation.
> > Only Angel, Buffy and Faith have
> > come back after going to L.A and they were all created on BtVS.
>
> And don't forget Oz. He did the crossover thing also.
I remembered that about half and hour after I posted. Seeing as how
nothing about that AtS episode was ever mentioned on BtVS its easy to
forget about it.
> > The only thing I'm sure is going to happen is that Angel will end up
> > on BtVS for the series finale so there will be some kind of closure-
> > maybe- with the B/A relationship. So other than Angel saying, "Oh, we
> > had to deal with this Jasmine character- she wasn't fun," I don't
> > expect anything from AtS this season to leak into the Buffyverse.
>
> Well, as you've said, you haven't watched Angel so you don't know that
> Jasmine basically has the entire state of California under her thrall
> right now.
Except for Sunnydale, of course.
> So for Angel to show up on the Buffy show in the context of
> having dealt with that without any explanation whatsoever as to how and
> why Sunnydale was somehow exempt from Jasmine's influence is silly.
Why would it be silly? All he has to say is they faced something big
and won. Buffy never even bothered to tell Angel about Glory when he
visited back in Forever. Don't you think that's something he should
have been told?
> Just because you refuse to watch Angel doesn't mean the storylines of
> the two shows haven't purposely been intwetwined, especially this season.
Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
> > Let's face it, we already have precedence for no inter-series info
> > swapping on BtVS the last two episodes: Willow not telling Buffy about
> > why she had to go to L.A. and then her and Faith saying nothing about
> > what went down during Willow's time there(at least onscreen and that's
> > all that counts).
>
> That's a lot different though.
No, it's not. It's all the same thing. BtVS is one show and AtS is
another show.
> The way the story is unfolding on Angel,
> it doesn't even require the characters to talk about it. According to
> what's happening in the shared universe between the two shows,
> *everyone* in California is under Jasmine's thrall. Therefore, the
> people of Sunnydale, including Buffy, her friends and the potentials,
> should be affected.
LOL. You're fucking kidding, right? That's never gonna happen. AtS is
in its own little world where there can be local total eclipses of the
sun and nobody in Sunnydale knows anything about it.
Smaug69
Carmikl
>
>
> Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
> it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
> of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
> confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
> characters.
>
Then they should leave Angel in LA instead of having him crossover for
two of those four episodes.
>
> Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
> for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
>
Even if Faith didn't appear on Angel, Willow's sudden departure then
return with Faith should have an on screen explanation. The writers are
assuming that everyone watched Faith's arc on Angel, and they shouldn't.
> >
BTR1701
Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
> > You can't do that and then ignore things like Jasmine's influence which
> > extends all the way to Sacramento on the Angel show, but completely
> > ignore it on the Buffy show while at the same time
>
> Can you tell me which BtVS episode where we see this influence? Until
> I see something onscreen in a BtVS episode then it's not happening in
> the Buffyverse.
Well, you can stick your head in the sand all you want but the fact is
these two shows share the same set of characters and events.
This exchange alone proves that what happened on Angel is part of the
Buffy universe:
BUFFY
No, thatąs not what I meant. (sighs) Iąm glad that youąre here. Itąs
good. Thank you.
FAITH
No problem. You know me‹ all about the good deeds.
BUFFY
Willow said you helped out Angel.
FAITH
Yeah. He says hey.
BUFFY
Really?
FAITH
Sure.
BUFFY
How is he?
FAITH
Better. I had to do this whole magickal mind-walk with him.
>
> > having characters
> > from both shows cross over to each other, underscoring that what
> > happens n one show is part of the same universe as the other.
>
> The only storyline that crossed over was the 4th season Faith
> mini-arc.
See above. Faith's jail break and subsequent trip with Willow to
Sunnydale, then her conversation with Buffy describing what happened
while she was in L.A. with Willow is a crossed-over storyline.
> > That's highly illogical and bad storytelling. If they didn't want to
> > have to deal with these types of things, they should have set the two
> > storylines apart in time and avoided all the crossovers.
>
> Hey, don't blame me.
Who said I'm blaming you?
> I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
> it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
> of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
> confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
> characters.
Well, then it's bad storytelling either way.
> > > And remember there has never been a crossover to BtVS of a
> > > character that was created on AtS.
> >
> > Why is that relevant at all?
>
> Jasmine is an AtS creation.
So what?
> > > Only Angel, Buffy and Faith have
> > > come back after going to L.A and they were all created on BtVS.
> >
> > And don't forget Oz. He did the crossover thing also.
>
> I remembered that about half and hour after I posted. Seeing as how
> nothing about that AtS episode was ever mentioned on BtVS
Well, actually, it was. Oz said he'd take the ring to Angel in L.A. on
the Buffy show. Then he did just that.
GILES
Itąs also very dangerousŠ and, well, destroying it‹
BUFFY
We donąt destroy it.
GILES
Buffy, any vampire that gets his hand on this is going to be essentially
unkillable. (off Buffyąs look; realizes) Oh.
OZ
I have that gig in L.A. I could swing by.
BUFFY
Thanks, Oz.
> > > The only thing I'm sure is going to happen is that Angel will end up
> > > on BtVS for the series finale so there will be some kind of closure-
> > > maybe- with the B/A relationship. So other than Angel saying, "Oh, we
> > > had to deal with this Jasmine character- she wasn't fun," I don't
> > > expect anything from AtS this season to leak into the Buffyverse.
> >
> > Well, as you've said, you haven't watched Angel so you don't know that
> > Jasmine basically has the entire state of California under her thrall
> > right now.
>
> Except for Sunnydale, of course.
Which is what doesn't make sense. Glad we're on the same page.
> > So for Angel to show up on the Buffy show in the context of
> > having dealt with that without any explanation whatsoever as to how and
> > why Sunnydale was somehow exempt from Jasmine's influence is silly.
>
> Why would it be silly? All he has to say is they faced something big
> and won. Buffy never even bothered to tell Angel about Glory when he
> visited back in Forever.
How do you know?
> > Just because you refuse to watch Angel doesn't mean the storylines of
> > the two shows haven't purposely been intwetwined, especially this
> > season.
>
> Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
> for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
And if the writers didn't assume some knowledge of what happened on
Angel, then that's even more bizarre.
Willow runs off to Los Angeles and comes back with a girl who was in max
security lockdown with no explanation? Talk about bad storytelling. No,
the writers obviously expect that at this point a majority of the
viewers have at least a general knowledge of the Angel events.
And even if they don't, they fact is, the two stories mesh. They are
part of a greater whole. Just because you personally refuse to watch
half of the story doesn't mean it's not a part of the whole.
> > > Let's face it, we already have precedence for no inter-series info
> > > swapping on BtVS the last two episodes: Willow not telling Buffy
> > > about why she had to go to L.A. and then her and Faith saying nothing about
> > > what went down during Willow's time there(at least onscreen and
> > > that's all that counts).
> >
> > That's a lot different though.
>
> No, it's not. It's all the same thing. BtVS is one show and AtS is
> another show.
Yeah, and all the Star Trek shows are different shows also but they all
take place within the same fictional universe. Why is this such a
difficult or offensive concept for you to accept?
> > The way the story is unfolding on Angel,
> > it doesn't even require the characters to talk about it. According to
> > what's happening in the shared universe between the two shows,
> > *everyone* in California is under Jasmine's thrall. Therefore, the
> > people of Sunnydale, including Buffy, her friends and the potentials,
> > should be affected.
>
> LOL. You're fucking kidding, right? That's never gonna happen. AtS is
> in its own little world where there can be local total eclipses of the
> sun and nobody in Sunnydale knows anything about it.
Actually, they did know about it. The only reason those lines were cut
is because the episodes didn't air in the right sequence time-wise.
Sam
I think it's worth mentioning that the storyline running on Angel was
already very nearly mentioned on Buffy. When Joyce comes to Buffy in
that dream and tells her how evil is natural and she can't stop the
sun from rising, the script has Joyce adding an extra line that was
cut before it reached the screen:
"Are you worried about the sun going down? Because some things you
can't control. The sun always goes down. The sun always comes up."
(beat)
"Except in L.A., just of late."
Tim Bruening
Mark Evans wrote:
> In alt.tv.angel Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > Spoiler Space:
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> > that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
> > before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> > since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> > problem.
>
> Did Buffy ever get a new TV.
Jasmine would convert everyone in Sunnydale who has a TV or radio. Those
people would, by speaking in Jasmine's voice, convert the remainder, including
the Scoobies.
Tim Bruening
the q is silent wrote:
I have suggested that AI try to knock out the power in LA so that Jasmine
can't broadcast her influence out of LA by radio, TV, or Internet. Fred could
hack into the power system computers to make them turn off the power.
Smaug69
> Smaug69 wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
> > it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
> > of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
> > confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
> > characters.
> >
> Then they should leave Angel in LA instead of having him crossover for
> two of those four episodes.
I couldn't agree more.
> > Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> > return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> > Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
> > for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
> >
> Even if Faith didn't appear on Angel, Willow's sudden departure then
> return with Faith should have an on screen explanation. The writers are
> assuming that everyone watched Faith's arc on Angel, and they shouldn't.
Exactly. There was nothing specifically mentioned about where Faith
went after she bailed in Who Are you?, why she was incarcerated, and
what happened with Willow and her and what was the connection with
Angel.
Smaug69
Smaug69
<snip>
> > > Well, then they really shouldn't have set these two shows in the same
> > > universe at the same time with the characters from both shows jumping
> > > back and forth between the two.
> >
> > Actually, there has only been one character from AtS that crossed to
> > BtVS and he was on BtVS for 3 seasons before he left. No other
> > character from AtS has appeared on BtVS(Faith is from BtVS).
>
> Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
It makes my point about the two shows not entwining. Angel and Faith
are BtVS characters. Their presence on BtVS needs no drawn-out
explanation.
> > > You can't do that and then ignore things like Jasmine's influence which
> > > extends all the way to Sacramento on the Angel show, but completely
> > > ignore it on the Buffy show while at the same time
> >
> > Can you tell me which BtVS episode where we see this influence? Until
> > I see something onscreen in a BtVS episode then it's not happening in
> > the Buffyverse.
>
> Well, you can stick your head in the sand all you want but the fact is
> these two shows share the same set of characters and events.
They may share a few characters, but they do not share events. Nothing
was mentioned onscreen about what happened to the Gem of Amara when Oz
took it to L.A. Nothing was mentioned about what happened when Buffy
went to L.A. after Pangs. The only thing that we learned about the
Faith mini-arc was that Angel and Buffy had words over Faith and hit
each other. Buffy never said anything to Angel about Glory. And that
6th season "reunion" happened offscreen. This all points to ME trying
to keep the two shows as separated as they can.
If you look at the two times Buffy crossed over to AtS, you'll notice
they're both in Sweeps months, and Faith comes back to BtVS this
season in time for... Guess what?
> This exchange alone proves that what happened on Angel is part of the
> Buffy universe:
>
> BUFFY
> No, thatıs not what I meant. (sighs) Iım glad that youıre here. Itıs
> good. Thank you.
>
> FAITH
> No problem. You know me? all about the good deeds.
>
> BUFFY
> Willow said you helped out Angel.
>
> FAITH
> Yeah. He says hey.
>
> BUFFY
> Really?
>
> FAITH
> Sure.
>
> BUFFY
> How is he?
>
> FAITH
> Better. I had to do this whole magickal mind-walk with him.
That's not an entwining, that's like saying, "Hey, nice weather we're
having. I helped Jerry in the yard yesterday." Like I said before,
when Angel shows up he's probably just going to say, "We had to deal
with this superbeingbitch. It wasn't pretty."
> >
> > > having characters
> > > from both shows cross over to each other, underscoring that what
> > > happens n one show is part of the same universe as the other.
> >
> > The only storyline that crossed over was the 4th season Faith
> > mini-arc.
>
> See above. Faith's jail break and subsequent trip with Willow to
> Sunnydale, then her conversation with Buffy describing what happened
> while she was in L.A. with Willow is a crossed-over storyline.
That was a description? I still have no idea what exactly happened in
L.A.
> > > That's highly illogical and bad storytelling. If they didn't want to
> > > have to deal with these types of things, they should have set the two
> > > storylines apart in time and avoided all the crossovers.
> >
> > Hey, don't blame me.
>
> Who said I'm blaming you?
You seem to be taking it out on me for ME's storytelling problems.
> > I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
> > it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
> > of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
> > confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
> > characters.
>
> Well, then it's bad storytelling either way.
Yup.
> > > Why is that relevant at all?
> >
> > Jasmine is an AtS creation.
>
> So what?
No AtS creation has ever crossed over.
> > > And don't forget Oz. He did the crossover thing also.
> >
> > I remembered that about half and hour after I posted. Seeing as how
> > nothing about that AtS episode was ever mentioned on BtVS
>
> Well, actually, it was.
No, it wasn't.
> Oz said he'd take the ring to Angel in L.A. on
> the Buffy show. Then he did just that.
>
> GILES
> Itıs also very dangerous? and, well, destroying it?
>
> BUFFY
> We donıt destroy it.
>
> GILES
> Buffy, any vampire that gets his hand on this is going to be essentially
> unkillable. (off Buffyıs look; realizes) Oh.
>
> OZ
> I have that gig in L.A. I could swing by.
>
> BUFFY
> Thanks, Oz.
This is all the stuff from the BtVS episode, HLOD. Nothing was ever
said about what actually happened on that Angel episode, In the Dark.
> > > Well, as you've said, you haven't watched Angel so you don't know that
> > > Jasmine basically has the entire state of California under her thrall
> > > right now.
> >
> > Except for Sunnydale, of course.
>
> Which is what doesn't make sense. Glad we're on the same page.
It makes perfect sense to me. Two shows. Two storylines.
> > > So for Angel to show up on the Buffy show in the context of
> > > having dealt with that without any explanation whatsoever as to how and
> > > why Sunnydale was somehow exempt from Jasmine's influence is silly.
> >
> > Why would it be silly? All he has to say is they faced something big
> > and won. Buffy never even bothered to tell Angel about Glory when he
> > visited back in Forever.
>
> How do you know?
Because it wasn't onscreen then it does not count. Do we really have
to have an argument about canon?
> > > Just because you refuse to watch Angel doesn't mean the storylines of
> > > the two shows haven't purposely been intwetwined, especially this
> > > season.
> >
> > Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> > return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> > Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
> > for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
>
> And if the writers didn't assume some knowledge of what happened on
> Angel, then that's even more bizarre.
Why would they assume everyone that watches BtVS also watches AtS?
> Willow runs off to Los Angeles and comes back with a girl who was in max
> security lockdown with no explanation? Talk about bad storytelling. No,
> the writers obviously expect that at this point a majority of the
> viewers have at least a general knowledge of the Angel events.
And that's bad storytelling to make those kind of assumptions about
two shows on two different networks. Any semi-intelligent writer would
know that. Not everyone watches both shows or hangs out in chat rooms
or newsgroups to learn everything they can.
> And even if they don't, they fact is, the two stories mesh. They are
> part of a greater whole. Just because you personally refuse to watch
> half of the story doesn't mean it's not a part of the whole.
I'm not refusing to do anything. There is no evidence on BtVS that any
of the current events in AtS actually exist. You are the one who seems
to be making leaps of illogic here, not me.
> > > That's a lot different though.
> >
> > No, it's not. It's all the same thing. BtVS is one show and AtS is
> > another show.
>
> Yeah, and all the Star Trek shows are different shows also but they all
> take place within the same fictional universe. Why is this such a
> difficult or offensive concept for you to accept?
I'm not talking about Star Trek. I'm talking about BtVS and AtS. Joss
himself said they stand apart and all the evidence points to ME trying
to keep both shows as separate and individual as they can.
> > > The way the story is unfolding on Angel,
> > > it doesn't even require the characters to talk about it. According to
> > > what's happening in the shared universe between the two shows,
> > > *everyone* in California is under Jasmine's thrall. Therefore, the
> > > people of Sunnydale, including Buffy, her friends and the potentials,
> > > should be affected.
> >
> > LOL. You're fucking kidding, right? That's never gonna happen. AtS is
> > in its own little world where there can be local total eclipses of the
> > sun and nobody in Sunnydale knows anything about it.
>
> Actually, they did know about it. The only reason those lines were cut
> is because the episodes didn't air in the right sequence time-wise.
Sure. Whatever. The fact is nothing was mentioned onscreen so it
doesn't count.
Smaug69
3D Master
Now this is a fanwank.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
David Marc Nieporent
>BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> > > So for Angel to show up on the Buffy show in the context of
>> > > having dealt with that without any explanation whatsoever as to how and
>> > > why Sunnydale was somehow exempt from Jasmine's influence is silly.
>> > Why would it be silly? All he has to say is they faced something big
>> > and won. Buffy never even bothered to tell Angel about Glory when he
>> > visited back in Forever.
>> How do you know?
>Because it wasn't onscreen then it does not count. Do we really have
>to have an argument about canon?
Hold on. That's totally wrong. "Not canon" != "Didn't happen."
Do you think Buffy has never gone to the bathroom just because it was
offscreen?
"Not canon" = "not certain." It might have happened, it might not have
happened.
---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent niep...@alumni.princeton.edu
Smaug69
<snip>
> I think it's worth mentioning that the storyline running on Angel was
> already very nearly mentioned on Buffy. When Joyce comes to Buffy in
> that dream and tells her how evil is natural and she can't stop the
> sun from rising, the script has Joyce adding an extra line that was
> cut before it reached the screen:
>
> "Are you worried about the sun going down? Because some things you
> can't control. The sun always goes down. The sun always comes up."
> (beat)
> "Except in L.A., just of late."
But it wasn't in the episode. That's what counts.
Smaug69
Smaug69
<snip>
> > LOL. You're fucking kidding, right? That's never gonna happen. AtS is
> > in its own little world where there can be local total eclipses of the
> > sun and nobody in Sunnydale knows anything about it.
> >
> > Smaug69
>
> Now this is a fanwank.
How so? There is no onscreen evidence on BtVS that anyone knew about
the eclipse of the sun in L.A. Either the gang and all of the
potentials no longer watch television and ignore all news of any kind
or it was just happening in the Angelverse.
Smaug69
BTR1701
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BTR1702-9B6A90...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > Well, then they really shouldn't have set these two shows in the
> > > > same universe at the same time with the characters from both shows
> > > > jumping back and forth between the two.
> > >
> > > Actually, there has only been one character from AtS that crossed to
> > > BtVS and he was on BtVS for 3 seasons before he left. No other
> > > character from AtS has appeared on BtVS(Faith is from BtVS).
> >
> > Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
>
> It makes my point about the two shows not entwining. Angel and Faith
> are BtVS characters. Their presence on BtVS needs no drawn-out
> explanation.
This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously
form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch certain aspects
without watching the other and not be confused doesn't invalidate the
concept.
> > > > You can't do that and then ignore things like Jasmine's influence
> > > > which extends all the way to Sacramento on the Angel show, but completely
> > > > ignore it on the Buffy show while at the same time
> > >
> > > Can you tell me which BtVS episode where we see this influence? Until
> > > I see something onscreen in a BtVS episode then it's not happening in
> > > the Buffyverse.
> >
> > Well, you can stick your head in the sand all you want but the fact is
> > these two shows share the same set of characters and events.
>
> They may share a few characters, but they do not share events. Nothing
> was mentioned onscreen about what happened to the Gem of Amara when Oz
> took it to L.A. Nothing was mentioned about what happened when Buffy
> went to L.A. after Pangs. The only thing that we learned about the
> Faith mini-arc was that Angel and Buffy had words over Faith and hit
> each other.
So something was mentioned, then, right? The fact that they didn't go
into great detail is irrelevant. What happened on Angel was mentioned on
Buffy. Therefore they share the same set of events, QED.
> Buffy never said anything to Angel about Glory. And that
> 6th season "reunion" happened offscreen. This all points to ME trying
> to keep the two shows as separated as they can.
If they wanted to keep them separated, they wouldn't be doing crossovers.
Hell, Andrew mentioned Fred on a Buffy episode. There's a character
that's unique to Angel (as if that makes a difference) that was
mentioned on a Buffy episode.
> If you look at the two times Buffy crossed over to AtS, you'll notice
> they're both in Sweeps months, and Faith comes back to BtVS this
> season in time for... Guess what?
So what? Sweeps has nothing to do with whether the two shows share the
same universe.
> > This exchange alone proves that what happened on Angel is part of the
> > Buffy universe:
> >
> > BUFFY
> > No, thatıs not what I meant. (sighs) Iım glad that youıre here. Itıs
> > good. Thank you.
> >
> > FAITH
> > No problem. You know me? all about the good deeds.
> >
> > BUFFY
> > Willow said you helped out Angel.
> >
> > FAITH
> > Yeah. He says hey.
> >
> > BUFFY
> > Really?
> >
> > FAITH
> > Sure.
> >
> > BUFFY
> > How is he?
> >
> > FAITH
> > Better. I had to do this whole magickal mind-walk with him.
>
> That's not an entwining, that's like saying, "Hey, nice weather we're
> having. I helped Jerry in the yard yesterday."
It proves that the events on one show happen in the same universe as the
other show.
>
> > >
> > > > having characters
> > > > from both shows cross over to each other, underscoring that what
> > > > happens n one show is part of the same universe as the other.
> > >
> > > The only storyline that crossed over was the 4th season Faith
> > > mini-arc.
> >
> > See above. Faith's jail break and subsequent trip with Willow to
> > Sunnydale, then her conversation with Buffy describing what happened
> > while she was in L.A. with Willow is a crossed-over storyline.
>
> That was a description? I still have no idea what exactly happened in
> L.A.
You don't need to know exactly. The proof that the two shows share the
same universe isn't dependent on you knowing exactly. The fact that the
events in LA were mentioned on the Buffy show proves they share the same
universe.
> > > > That's highly illogical and bad storytelling. If they didn't want
> > > > to
> > > > have to deal with these types of things, they should have set the
> > > > two
> > > > storylines apart in time and avoided all the crossovers.
> > >
> > > Hey, don't blame me.
> >
> > Who said I'm blaming you?
>
> You seem to be taking it out on me for ME's storytelling problems.
You must be fantastically over-sensitive then. I think from the start
I've said it was the writer's bad storytelling, not yours. I quote:
"That's highly illogical and bad storytelling. If they didn't want to
have to deal with these types of things, they should have set the two
storylines apart in time and avoided all the crossovers."
Not sure where you get that I'm blaming you.
> > > > Why is that relevant at all?
> > >
> > > Jasmine is an AtS creation.
> >
> > So what?
>
> No AtS creation has ever crossed over.
So what?
Fred was mentioned on Buffy so she's part of the Buffy universe.
> > > > And don't forget Oz. He did the crossover thing also.
> > >
> > > I remembered that about half and hour after I posted. Seeing as how
> > > nothing about that AtS episode was ever mentioned on BtVS
> >
> > Well, actually, it was.
>
> No, it wasn't.
>
> > Oz said he'd take the ring to Angel in L.A. on
> > the Buffy show. Then he did just that.
> >
> > GILES
> > Itıs also very dangerous? and, well, destroying it?
> >
> > BUFFY
> > We donıt destroy it.
> >
> > GILES
> > Buffy, any vampire that gets his hand on this is going to be
> > essentially
> > unkillable. (off Buffyıs look; realizes) Oh.
> >
> > OZ
> > I have that gig in L.A. I could swing by.
> >
> > BUFFY
> > Thanks, Oz.
>
> This is all the stuff from the BtVS episode, HLOD. Nothing was ever
> said about what actually happened on that Angel episode, In the Dark.
They don't have to say it. It's like the second reel of a movie. If you
watch the first half of a movie and walk out, the fact that you refused
to watch the second half doesn't invalidate the rest of the film.
> > > > So for Angel to show up on the Buffy show in the context of
> > > > having dealt with that without any explanation whatsoever as to how
> > > > and why Sunnydale was somehow exempt from Jasmine's influence is silly.
> > >
> > > Why would it be silly? All he has to say is they faced something big
> > > and won. Buffy never even bothered to tell Angel about Glory when he
> > > visited back in Forever.
> >
> > How do you know?
>
> Because it wasn't onscreen then it does not count.
Count? Count for what?
> Do we really have to have an argument about canon?
Well, we've never seen Buffy take a shit on screen, either so I guess
canon dictates she's been holding it in for seven years, huh?
> > > > Just because you refuse to watch Angel doesn't mean the storylines
> > > > of the two shows haven't purposely been intwetwined, especially this
> > > > season.
> > >
> > > Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> > > return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> > > Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went
> > > away
> > > for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
> >
> > And if the writers didn't assume some knowledge of what happened on
> > Angel, then that's even more bizarre.
>
> Why would they assume everyone that watches BtVS also watches AtS?
Because they either know or assume that fans of one show are in general
fans of the other as well.
> > Willow runs off to Los Angeles and comes back with a girl who was in
> > max security lockdown with no explanation? Talk about bad storytelling. No,
> > the writers obviously expect that at this point a majority of the
> > viewers have at least a general knowledge of the Angel events.
>
> And that's bad storytelling to make those kind of assumptions about
> two shows on two different networks. Any semi-intelligent writer would
> know that. Not everyone watches both shows or hangs out in chat rooms
> or newsgroups to learn everything they can.
>
> > And even if they don't, they fact is, the two stories mesh. They are
> > part of a greater whole. Just because you personally refuse to watch
> > half of the story doesn't mean it's not a part of the whole.
>
> I'm not refusing to do anything. There is no evidence on BtVS that any
> of the current events in AtS actually exist.
Sure there is. Fred was mentioned. Faith talked about her experiences
with Angel in LA, Willow talked about Faith being in prison, you
yourself have mentioned how you know Buffy and Angel traded punches in
LA.
These are all things from the Angel show and they have been mentioned on
Buffy. Your premise that there is no evidence is flat out wrong.
>
> > > > That's a lot different though.
> > >
> > > No, it's not. It's all the same thing. BtVS is one show and AtS is
> > > another show.
> >
> > Yeah, and all the Star Trek shows are different shows also but they all
> > take place within the same fictional universe. Why is this such a
> > difficult or offensive concept for you to accept?
>
> I'm not talking about Star Trek. I'm talking about BtVS and AtS.
Same principle.
> Joss himself said they stand apart
Joss himself said to yours truly at the PBP Party two months ago that if
he could swing it with the network powers, he'd love to do a full cast
crossover on both shows and have it last over the course of about four
episodes but the logistics and legalities involved in such a thing would
have been way too complicated.
> and all the evidence points to ME trying
> to keep both shows as separate and individual as they can.
Well, except for the evidence that they're purposely doing character
crossovers and mentioning events on the other show to the contrary.
> > > > The way the story is unfolding on Angel,
> > > > it doesn't even require the characters to talk about it. According
> > > > to what's happening in the shared universe between the two shows,
> > > > *everyone* in California is under Jasmine's thrall. Therefore, the
> > > > people of Sunnydale, including Buffy, her friends and the
> > > > potentials, should be affected.
> > >
> > > LOL. You're fucking kidding, right? That's never gonna happen. AtS is
> > > in its own little world where there can be local total eclipses of
> > > the
> > > sun and nobody in Sunnydale knows anything about it.
> >
> > Actually, they did know about it. The only reason those lines were cut
> > is because the episodes didn't air in the right sequence time-wise.
>
> Sure. Whatever. The fact is nothing was mentioned onscreen so it
> doesn't count.
Only to you. But then you're ostrich-boy so no surprise there.
tmac
>> > >
>> > > Actually, there has only been one character from AtS that crossed to
>> > > BtVS and he was on BtVS for 3 seasons before he left. No other
>> > > character from AtS has appeared on BtVS(Faith is from BtVS).
>> >
I haven't been watching Angel for long - who started on AtS and
crossed over?
thanks,
tmac
BTR1701
Darwin Fish
Angel, Cordy, Faith and Wesley.
Linda
"Smaug69" <sma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com...
> Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:<3EA8A17D...@rcn.com>...
> > Smaug69 wrote:
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
> > > it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
> > > of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
> > > confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
> > > characters.
> > >
> > Then they should leave Angel in LA instead of having him crossover for
> > two of those four episodes.
>
> I couldn't agree more.
I happen to like the cross-overs and if it gets more people to watch Angel
then I'm all for it.
>
> > > Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> > > return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> > > Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
> > > for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
> > >
> > Even if Faith didn't appear on Angel, Willow's sudden departure then
> > return with Faith should have an on screen explanation. The writers are
> > assuming that everyone watched Faith's arc on Angel, and they shouldn't.
>
> Exactly. There was nothing specifically mentioned about where Faith
> went after she bailed in Who Are you?, why she was incarcerated, and
> what happened with Willow and her and what was the connection with
> Angel.
They did but why have them repeat it on BtVS when it's already been
explained on Angel. Just because you don't watch Angel? That's a waste of
screen time.
--
Best regards
Linda
Mmmmmm. Angel
tmac
All of them started on BtVS. I got the impression the original poster
was referring to someone who FIRST appeared on AtS and then became a
Buffy cast member, and that's what I was asking about. Maybe I
misunderstood.
tmac
Ian Galbraith
wrote:
[snip]
>This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously
>form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch certain aspects
>without watching the other and not be confused doesn't invalidate the
>concept.
They look to be 2 different stories to me, just some crossing over in
the characters.
[snip]
BTR1701
<igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote:
It's just that each show focuses on different aspects of the same
universe.
But there is definite intertwining of the storylines. Willow leaves
Sunnydale on Buffy, shows up in LA on Angel. Leaves with Faith on Angel
and shows up Faith in Sunnydale. The events on one show flow coherently
into the events on the other.
Michael Ikeda
news:p90lav00kghdghmkk...@4ax.com:
It occurs to me that, unless Angel specifically explains what was
happening with Jasmine, the Scoobies might not realize that there
was anything going on there for them to be concerned about.
And it isn't exactly unprecedented for Angel to hold back
information.
I am, of course, assuming that there is something (perhaps the
First or the Hellmouth) that prevents Jasmine's voice from
affecting people in Sunnydale.
Smaug69
> "Smaug69" <sma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com...
> > Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:<3EA8A17D...@rcn.com>...
> > > Smaug69 wrote:
> > > >
>
> > > >
> > > > Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write any of it. All I can say is that
> > > > it would be bad storytelling and illogical for these last 4 epsiodes
> > > > of BtVS to introduce all of this AtS stuff. Not only would it be
> > > > confusing, but it would take time away from the BtVS storyline and
> > > > characters.
> > > >
> > > Then they should leave Angel in LA instead of having him crossover for
> > > two of those four episodes.
> >
> > I couldn't agree more.
>
> I happen to like the cross-overs and if it gets more people to watch Angel
> then I'm all for it.
It certainly didn't draw me.
> >
> > > > Sorry, but at this point they haven't entwined at all. We got the
> > > > return of Faith, but nothing has been revealed about what she and
> > > > Willow did while on AtS. As far as BtVS is concerned, Willow went away
> > > > for some unknown reason and came back with Faith.
> > > >
> > > Even if Faith didn't appear on Angel, Willow's sudden departure then
> > > return with Faith should have an on screen explanation. The writers are
> > > assuming that everyone watched Faith's arc on Angel, and they shouldn't.
> >
> > Exactly. There was nothing specifically mentioned about where Faith
> > went after she bailed in Who Are you?, why she was incarcerated, and
> > what happened with Willow and her and what was the connection with
> > Angel.
>
> They did but why have them repeat it on BtVS when it's already been
> explained on Angel. Just because you don't watch Angel? That's a waste of
> screen time.
Exactly. So don't ever mention anything that happened on Angel and
don't cross the storylines. It's just wasted screen time. :-)
Smaug69
Smaug69
I am snipping everything out to make this a much smaller and easier to
follow reply:
<snip>
> > > Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
> >
> > It makes my point about the two shows not entwining. Angel and Faith
> > are BtVS characters. Their presence on BtVS needs no drawn-out
> > explanation.
>
> This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously
> form a coherent whole.
How so? Are you saying that I am missing the big picture on BtVS by
not watching AtS? Has this ever happened in the history of television
where I have to watch another show to understand the events that are
happening on the show I'm currently watching? Where is the connection?
I would assume that there are overlapping events and characters in
each storyline- outside Willow and Faith(who apparantly helped out
Angel by doing a magical mind walk thingie but who doesn't seem to
think that anything bad happening on AtS needs to be covered)- where
we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each show.
So what are they? Can ATs shed some light on the FE and Caleb? Does
BtVS help Angel viewers get some insight on this Jasmine? I seem to be
pretty up on everything that's happening in Sunnydale just from
watching BtVS. Is there something about the events happening in
Sunnydale that are covered or explained on AtS? I can guess your
answer.
I'll tell you my POV. I watch BtVS. That's all I need to watch to
understand what's happening on BtVS. If I have to watch AtS to
understand what is happening on BtVS(And vice versa) then it's bad
storytelling on ME's part.
BTW, in the context of BtVS, Fred is a guy that sounds effiminate.
Smaug69
Smaug69
Nope. Angel started on BtVS and crossed to AtS. No character that
specifically started on AtS has yet crossed over to BtVS.
Smaug69
Smaug69
Cordelia and Wesley have never been on BtVS since going to AtS.
Smaug69
BTR1701
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BTR1702-BBD2D8...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > In article <rgojavsfqtrb92kun...@4ax.com>, tmac
> > <nos...@noemail.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0500, someone wrote:
> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Actually, there has only been one character from AtS that
> > > >> > > crossed
> > > >> > > to BtVS and he was on BtVS for 3 seasons before he left. No
> > > >> > > other character from AtS has appeared on BtVS(Faith is from BtVS).
> > > >> >
> > >
> > > I haven't been watching Angel for long - who started on AtS and
> > > crossed over?
> >
> > Angel
>
> Nope. Angel started on BtVS and crossed to AtS.
Not according to your logic. According to you, these are two separate
shows so the Angel character that left Buffy in Season 3 and the Angel
character that appeared on the Angel show in Season 1 are completely
different charcters.
It's just a coincidence that a 240-year-old vampire cursed by gypsies
with a soul left one show and another completely different show started
that just happened to have as its main charcter a 240-year-old vampire
cursed by gypsies with a soul.
And later that season on the Angel show, the main charcter was visited
by his ex-lover, a pretty blonde vampire Slayer from a town called
Sunnydale. But she's a completely different character than the pretty
blonde vampire Slayer from a town called Sunnydale who appears on the
Buffy show. It's just a wild coincidence that the two characters share
so much in common.
These are two different shows with no relation to each other, in two
separate universes, right? So the Angel that started on the Angel show
isn't the same character that was on Buffy.
You're own logic says so.
BTR1701
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BTR1702-88922A...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> I am snipping everything out to make this a much smaller and easier to
> follow reply:
> > > > Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
> > >
> > > It makes my point about the two shows not entwining. Angel and Faith
> > > are BtVS characters. Their presence on BtVS needs no drawn-out
> > > explanation.
> >
> > This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together,
> > obviously form a coherent whole.
>
> How so? Are you saying that I am missing the big picture on BtVS by
> not watching AtS?
You could be. Who knows? We haven't seen how this all plays out yet.
> Has this ever happened in the history of television
> where I have to watch another show to understand the events that are
> happening on the show I'm currently watching?
What does the history of television have to do with it? Yet another
irrelevancy you've dragged out of the clear blue sky.
And you seem to think this whole concept is dependent upon your personal
confusion or lack thereof. It's not. You are really wholly irrelevant to
the issue at hand.
> I would assume that there are overlapping events and characters in
> each storyline- outside Willow and Faith(who apparantly helped out
> Angel by doing a magical mind walk thingie but who doesn't seem to
> think that anything bad happening on AtS needs to be covered)- where
> we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each show.
You seem to enjoy making up rules and criteria out of the blue to
bolster your argument.
It's not necessary that there by "overlapping events and characters
where we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each
show" in order for both shows to share the same universe.
> So what are they? Can ATs shed some light on the FE and Caleb? Does
> BtVS help Angel viewers get some insight on this Jasmine?
None of this is necessary for both shows to share the same universe.
> I'll tell you my POV. I watch BtVS. That's all I need to watch to
> understand what's happening on BtVS.
Since when did the issue become whether or not you understand the Buffy
show? This started out as a debate about whether both shows share the
same universe, not whether you need Angel to explain Buffy to you.
> BTW, in the context of BtVS, Fred is a guy that sounds effiminate.
Yeah, right. Grasp harder-- those straws are getting away from you.
mothperson
with Willow and Faith crossing over, does that mean it's December in
L.A. too? I know this is a stupid question, but I was really jolted
by the sudden timeline change. Talking To Dead People was in November.
Nearly six months later we've only moved one month along? I'm
confused. I won't ask why Angel can't at least give Buffy a heads up
phone call re Jasmine. There are two/too many Big Bads wandering
around California, to my mind. But WHY is it December in Sunnydale???
BTR1701
<l...@ziplink.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:36:18 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >You're own logic says so.
> ----------------
> Actually, I think the original question was about characters who had
> originated on Angel and then appeared on Buffy (none); not, as you
> appeared to think, whatever it was you did think:-)
Smaug has repeatedly said these are two different show in two separate
universes that have no relation to each other. Not just in this thread
but in the past as well.
>
> On the other hand, characters do change when they go to other shows.
> Wesley, on Buffy, seemed a fairly hopeless character, without much
> actual potential; on Angel he developed nicely. The character needed
> depth and breadth, because he was taking up a larger space on his new
> show. The character being the same dead end muffin, week after week,
> would have been horrible. In the same way, there is considerable
> difference between Buffy the movie character and Buffy the television
> character, although the cover a lot of the same ground. The movie
> character would drive you nuts on a weekly show.
Well, in the case of the movie, it really is completely different and
has no bearing on the TV show.
Smaug69
> In article <5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com>,
> sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
>
> > BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BTR1702-88922A...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> >
> > I am snipping everything out to make this a much smaller and easier to
> > follow reply:
>
> > > > > Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
> > > >
> > > > It makes my point about the two shows not entwining. Angel and Faith
> > > > are BtVS characters. Their presence on BtVS needs no drawn-out
> > > > explanation.
> > >
> > > This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together,
> > > obviously form a coherent whole.
> >
> > How so? Are you saying that I am missing the big picture on BtVS by
> > not watching AtS?
>
> You could be. Who knows? We haven't seen how this all plays out yet.
Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
which is it?
> > Has this ever happened in the history of television
> > where I have to watch another show to understand the events that are
> > happening on the show I'm currently watching?
>
> What does the history of television have to do with it? Yet another
> irrelevancy you've dragged out of the clear blue sky.
Is it too confusing for you to comprehend? No TV series has ever
needed to be explained or understood by watching another TV series.
> And you seem to think this whole concept is dependent upon your personal
> confusion or lack thereof. It's not. You are really wholly irrelevant to
> the issue at hand.
Sure. I, an audience member who watches BtVS, mean nothing to ME.
They're just doing it for themselves and the money. They don't give a
shit about the viewers.
> > I would assume that there are overlapping events and characters in
> > each storyline- outside Willow and Faith(who apparantly helped out
> > Angel by doing a magical mind walk thingie but who doesn't seem to
> > think that anything bad happening on AtS needs to be covered)- where
> > we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each show.
>
> You seem to enjoy making up rules and criteria out of the blue to
> bolster your argument.
You're the one who is making shit up. The storylines do not
intertwine...yet. And they may or may not do so.
> It's not necessary that there by "overlapping events and characters
> where we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each
> show" in order for both shows to share the same universe.
Nice backpedal. You go from saying the shows' storylines intertwine
and that you have to see both series to get the whole picture to
saying that they don't have to have overlapping events and characters
to be in the same universe. That actually backpedals away from the
argument at hand entirely.
> > So what are they? Can ATs shed some light on the FE and Caleb? Does
> > BtVS help Angel viewers get some insight on this Jasmine?
>
> None of this is necessary for both shows to share the same universe.
LOL. Now I see where you stand. You had no evidence to back up your
original points so you have moved to a neutral stance.
> > I'll tell you my POV. I watch BtVS. That's all I need to watch to
> > understand what's happening on BtVS.
>
> Since when did the issue become whether or not you understand the Buffy
> show?
YOU were the one who made it an issue by telling me that to get the
whole picture I had to see both shows. There is no truth in that.
> This started out as a debate about whether both shows share the
> same universe, not whether you need Angel to explain Buffy to you.
No, this started out as a debate about this season's storylines on
both shows intertwining or not. Notice the original post I responded
to- which wasn't yours.
YOU made it into another "shared universe" subthread and that is not
what I am talking about.
> > BTW, in the context of BtVS, Fred is a guy that sounds effiminate.
>
> Yeah, right. Grasp harder-- those straws are getting away from you.
Hey, that's canon on BtVS, Sparky. Go back and watch that episode.
There's no mention of who Fred is or where Fred is calling from. But
according to Andrew, Fred is a guy.
Smaug69
Smaug69
> In article <p90lav00kghdghmkk...@4ax.com>, Ian Galbraith
> <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > >This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously
> > >form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch certain aspects
> > >without watching the other and not be confused doesn't invalidate the
> > >concept.
> >
> > They look to be 2 different stories to me, just some crossing over in
> > the characters.
>
> It's just that each show focuses on different aspects of the same
> universe.
>
> But there is definite intertwining of the storylines.
No, there isn't. Jasmine is an unknown entity in Sunnydale just as the
FE is an unkown entity in L.A.
> Willow leaves
> Sunnydale on Buffy, shows up in LA on Angel.
And we weren't told about what she did while she was there. She may or
may not have given Faith a hand in helping Angel. There's no onscreen
evidence for it.
> Leaves with Faith on Angel
> and shows up Faith in Sunnydale. The events on one show flow coherently
> into the events on the other.
Well, according to BtVS the only event from AtS that was even
mentioned in Dirty Girls was Faith helping Angel. If these two series
were intertwining their storylines this season then we should have
learned something about Jasmine and all that fun that led up to her.
Smaug69
Hunter
> Spoiler Space:
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
> before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> problem.
>
> So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
> That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> minions.
>
It is not quite the same timeframe. Remember, there has only been one
new BtVS since Faith and Willow left LA. I guesstimate Buffy was
walking down that street depressed over the incidents in the wine
cellar when Jasmine was being born. Willow and Faith leaving LA and
Buffy's depression seems like a day has gone by. Cordelia annoucing
her pregnancy just seconds after Willow and Faith walk out the
Hyperion's door and giving birth to Jasmine seems like a day also.
--
----->Hunter
"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."
-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
Hunter
slnosp...@comcast.net says...
>
>
> "liv" <l...@ziplink.net> wrote in message
> news:4qhgavgq2295jga78...@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:43:26 -0400, "DarkMagic"
> > <slnosp...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Carmikl" <Car...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > >> > > Spoiler Space:
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >> > > ;
> > >(snip)
> > >Angel appears in Sunnydale after the Jasmine arc has ended. Faith has
> just
> > >arrived in Sunnydale, which means the gang at A.I. are struggling to
> > >overcome the influence of the idiot spell. They have just figured out
> that
> > >there is something unusual about Cordelia. No mention was made of LA's
> > >extra long eclipse so don't count on any Jasmine commentary either.
> > -------------
> > I thought there was a brief mention of the eclipse.
>
> Mention of the eclipse was in one of the scripts. It wasn't actually ever
> mentioned in an episode.
> >--
> Shannon
>
> Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her."
>
> Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"
>
>
>
---
True, but common sense says Willow got the full rundown from Angel
Inc. off screen.
Hunter
BTR...@ix.netcom.com says...
> In article <5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com>,
> > news:<3EA7F858...@rcn.com>...
> > > Spoiler Space:
>
(snip)
> > Let's face it, we already have precedence for no inter-series info
> > swapping on BtVS the last two episodes: Willow not telling Buffy about
> > why she had to go to L.A. and then her and Faith saying nothing about
> > what went down during Willow's time there(at least onscreen and that's
> > all that counts).
>
> what's happening in the shared universe between the two shows,
> *everyone* in California is under Jasmine's thrall. Therefore, the
> people of Sunnydale, including Buffy, her friends and the potentials,
> should be affected.
>
Keep in mind the timing difference. I guesstimate that when Buffy is
walking down that street distraught at the end of BtVS's "Dirty Girls"
Jasmine was being born on AtS's "Inside Out". since both incidences
seem to be happening about a day after Willow and Faith left LA.
Darwin Fish
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> In article <3EA7F858...@rcn.com>, Car...@rcn.com says...
> > Spoiler Space:
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > ;
> > Her influence has extended all the way to the Governor's Office now and
> > that's certainly national news. We know that Angel crosses over to Buffy
> > before the Buffy finale, so it's certainly within the same time frame
> > since he wouldn't be traveling to Sunnydale if Jasmine was still a
> > problem.
> >
> > So why haven't the residents of Sunnydale gone mushy in the brain yet?
> > That would create the perfect set of circumstances for Caleb and his
> > minions.
> >
> ---
> It is not quite the same timeframe. Remember, there has only been one
> new BtVS since Faith and Willow left LA. I guesstimate Buffy was
> walking down that street depressed over the incidents in the wine
> cellar when Jasmine was being born. Willow and Faith leaving LA and
> Buffy's depression seems like a day has gone by. Cordelia annoucing
> her pregnancy just seconds after Willow and Faith walk out the
> Hyperion's door and giving birth to Jasmine seems like a day also.
Plus from the point when Jasmine came to the hotel and told the gang
they needed to stamp out evil in the city it seems like at least a week
or two had already passed between scenes. It must have taken at least
that for AI to have enough of an effect on LA's homicide rate for it to
be commented on by the local nightly news.
BTR1701
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BTR1702-757A8F...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > In article <5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com>,
> > sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
> >
> > > BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<BTR1702-88922A...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > >
> > > I am snipping everything out to make this a much smaller and easier
> > > to
> > > follow reply:
> >
> > > > > > Of what relevance is which show the characters started on?
> > > > >
> > > > > It makes my point about the two shows not entwining. Angel and
> > > > > Faith
> > > > > are BtVS characters. Their presence on BtVS needs no drawn-out
> > > > > explanation.
> > > >
> > > > This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together,
> > > > obviously form a coherent whole.
> > >
> > > How so? Are you saying that I am missing the big picture on BtVS by
> > > not watching AtS?
> >
> > You could be. Who knows? We haven't seen how this all plays out yet.
>
> Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
> this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
> which is it?
They do form a coherent whole. You keep asking if you're missing
anything by not watching Angel. That's a question only you can answer.
But aside from your own personal confusion or lack thereof (which is
wholly irrelevant), it is possible to build a story such that both shows
can stand alone and yet still compliment each other and add nuances to
each other.
> > > Has this ever happened in the history of television
> > > where I have to watch another show to understand the events that are
> > > happening on the show I'm currently watching?
> >
> > What does the history of television have to do with it? Yet another
> > irrelevancy you've dragged out of the clear blue sky.
>
> Is it too confusing for you to comprehend? No TV series has ever
> needed to be explained or understood by watching another TV series.
So what? You keep saying this but you have yet to explain why the
history of television has anything to do with the issue at hand.
> > > I would assume that there are overlapping events and characters in
> > > each storyline- outside Willow and Faith(who apparantly helped out
> > > Angel by doing a magical mind walk thingie but who doesn't seem to
> > > think that anything bad happening on AtS needs to be covered)- where
> > > we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each
> > > show.
> >
> > You seem to enjoy making up rules and criteria out of the blue to
> > bolster your argument.
>
> You're the one who is making shit up. The storylines do not
> intertwine...yet. And they may or may not do so.
They do. The Willow going to L.A. and bringing Faith back is but one
example of that intertwining.
> > It's not necessary that there by "overlapping events and characters
> > where we need to see both shows to understand what's happening on each
> > show" in order for both shows to share the same universe.
>
> Nice backpedal. You go from saying the shows' storylines intertwine
> and that you have to see both series to get the whole picture
I never said you have to see both series to get the whole picture.
Please quote back to me any post where I ever said that.
> > > So what are they? Can ATs shed some light on the FE and Caleb? Does
> > > BtVS help Angel viewers get some insight on this Jasmine?
> >
> > None of this is necessary for both shows to share the same universe.
>
> LOL. Now I see where you stand. You had no evidence to back up your
> original points so you have moved to a neutral stance.
You're original position is that Buffy and Angel are two separate shows
that do not share the same universe and have no relation to each other.
You're the one who can't come up with any evidence to support that
position and goes to great and ridiculous lengths to fanwank away the
evidence to the contrary.
> > > I'll tell you my POV. I watch BtVS. That's all I need to watch to
> > > understand what's happening on BtVS.
> >
> > Since when did the issue become whether or not you understand the Buffy
> > show?
>
> YOU were the one who made it an issue by telling me that to get the
> whole picture I had to see both shows. There is no truth in that.
Please quote me any instance where I ever said you had to watch both
shows or stop saying this.
> > This started out as a debate about whether both shows share the
> > same universe, not whether you need Angel to explain Buffy to you.
>
> No, this started out as a debate about this season's storylines on
> both shows intertwining or not. Notice the original post I responded
> to- which wasn't yours.
>
> YOU made it into another "shared universe" subthread and that is not
> what I am talking about.
Then why did you say "these are two seaparate shows and Whedon and ME
are trying to keep them as separate as possible"?
> > > BTW, in the context of BtVS, Fred is a guy that sounds effiminate.
> >
> > Yeah, right. Grasp harder-- those straws are getting away from you.
>
> Hey, that's canon on BtVS, Sparky. Go back and watch that episode.
> There's no mention of who Fred is or where Fred is calling from. But
> according to Andrew, Fred is a guy.
Sorry. That's a crock of shit and you know it, Slappy. Those straws just
slipped away from you entirely.
BTR1701
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
Well, then we'll just wait a few episodes, then come back to this
question since I'm sure the issue will be exactly the same.
BTR1701
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BTR1702-79BFCE...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > In article <p90lav00kghdghmkk...@4ax.com>, Ian Galbraith
> > <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > >This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together,
> > > >obviously form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch certain
> > > >aspects without watching the other and not be confused doesn't invalidate
> > > >the concept.
> > >
> > > They look to be 2 different stories to me, just some crossing over in
> > > the characters.
> >
> > It's just that each show focuses on different aspects of the same
> > universe.
> >
> > But there is definite intertwining of the storylines.
>
> No, there isn't. Jasmine is an unknown entity in Sunnydale just as the
> FE is an unkown entity in L.A.
Not really. Faith was attacked in prison by an inmate wielding a
Bringer's knife. That proves The First is active on the Angel show as
well.
You really shouldn't be making canon arguments about a show you yourself
have admitted to never watching.
> > Willow leaves
> > Sunnydale on Buffy, shows up in LA on Angel.
>
> And we weren't told about what she did while she was there. She may or
> may not have given Faith a hand in helping Angel. There's no onscreen
> evidence for it.
Sure there is. You just have decided not to watch it.
> > Leaves with Faith on Angel
> > and shows up Faith in Sunnydale. The events on one show flow coherently
> > into the events on the other.
>
> Well, according to BtVS the only event from AtS that was even
> mentioned in Dirty Girls was Faith helping Angel. If these two series
> were intertwining their storylines this season then we should have
> learned something about Jasmine and all that fun that led up to her.
Says who? The shows can be intertwined as much or as little as the
producers want them to be. You seem to be saying if they don't explain
every detail, they can't be intertwined at all. Whedon and crew
obviously have decided to only intertwine them a little bit. However,
that doesn't change the fact that the ARE intertwined.
Smaug69
<snip>
> > Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
> > this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
> > which is it?
>
> They do form a coherent whole. You keep asking if you're missing
> anything by not watching Angel. That's a question only you can answer.
No, it's not. Is there anything about the FE or caleb or the Bringers
or the turok-hans or the potentials I'm missing by not watching AtS?
If I'm not missing anything then watching BtVS is all I need to form a
coherent whole for BtVS.
> But aside from your own personal confusion or lack thereof (which is
> wholly irrelevant), it is possible to build a story such that both shows
> can stand alone and yet still compliment each other and add nuances to
> each other.
Where is that on BtVS? What am I possibly learning about the events
and characters on AtS?
> > > What does the history of television have to do with it? Yet another
> > > irrelevancy you've dragged out of the clear blue sky.
> >
> > Is it too confusing for you to comprehend? No TV series has ever
> > needed to be explained or understood by watching another TV series.
>
> So what? You keep saying this but you have yet to explain why the
> history of television has anything to do with the issue at hand.
Because you keep saying I need to watch AtS to get the whole picture
for BtVS. That's just not true.
> > > You seem to enjoy making up rules and criteria out of the blue to
> > > bolster your argument.
> >
> > You're the one who is making shit up. The storylines do not
> > intertwine...yet. And they may or may not do so.
>
> They do. The Willow going to L.A. and bringing Faith back is but one
> example of that intertwining.
What did Willow got to L.A. to do? She never said anything when she
left and she never said anything onscreen when she got back. All we
know is that faith helped Angel and that Willow came back with her.
> > Nice backpedal. You go from saying the shows' storylines intertwine
> > and that you have to see both series to get the whole picture
>
> I never said you have to see both series to get the whole picture.
> Please quote back to me any post where I ever said that.
"The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously form a coherent
whole."
This simply is not true. I don't need to see any episodes of AtS this
season to get the coherent whole of the story on BtVS.
> > LOL. Now I see where you stand. You had no evidence to back up your
> > original points so you have moved to a neutral stance.
>
> You're original position is that Buffy and Angel are two separate shows
> that do not share the same universe and have no relation to each other.
> You're the one who can't come up with any evidence to support that
> position and goes to great and ridiculous lengths to fanwank away the
> evidence to the contrary.
This thread does not cover that subject. Please stick to the subject
at hand- it's up there in the subject header.
> > YOU were the one who made it an issue by telling me that to get the
> > whole picture I had to see both shows. There is no truth in that.
>
> Please quote me any instance where I ever said you had to watch both
> shows or stop saying this.
See above.
> > YOU made it into another "shared universe" subthread and that is not
> > what I am talking about.
>
> Then why did you say "these are two seaparate shows and Whedon and ME
> are trying to keep them as separate as possible"?
Because it was a bit of evidence from Whedon that suggests why there
has been no entwining of storylines this season. It's deliberate on
their part.
> > Hey, that's canon on BtVS, Sparky. Go back and watch that episode.
> > There's no mention of who Fred is or where Fred is calling from. But
> > according to Andrew, Fred is a guy.
>
> Sorry. That's a crock of shit and you know it, Slappy. Those straws just
> slipped away from you entirely.
LOL. You are the one standing on the other side of the fence, Sparky.
There is no onscreen evidence on BtVS that tells us Fred is not a guy.
And that's about as compelling evidence as one can find to show that
the two series are not entwining their storylines this season.
Smaug69
ianboy
wrote:
I'm not precisely sure at what point you are questioning the date to
be (although I assume it is the episodes with the Willow/Faith
crossovers which haven't yet aired here in the UK) but during the BtVS
episode immediately before that, "Get It Done", Principal Wood and
Buffy are discussing the incidence of delinquency in the school and
the likelihood of it being a Hellmouth effect. Buffy states explicitly
that there is usually an increase in evil effect from it around May
from her experience, so dating that show explicitly 6 months beyond
"Conversations With Dead People" (to give it the correct title).
Ian
liv
wrote:
(snip)
>Well, in the case of the movie, it really is completely different and
>has no bearing on the TV show.
----------------
Since the tv show immediately follows the movie, and has some
similarities (Buffy's burning down the gym, for example, and Buffy's
statements about being in-crowd popular in her old school, and other
things, such as the name and job description), it does have some
bearing on the tv show. The tv show was a spinoff from the movie, and
some things were changed, such as many of Buffy's points of character.
Angel is a spinoff from Buffy, and some things changed for the
characters when they showed up on the new show. Pike could still
appear on Buffy, although we can be pretty sure that he won't, and I
know there have been occasional rumors of this happening. The
difference is that the movie was a one time deal, where both tv shows
have run in parallel, and ocassionally meet at certain points in time.
When they do, the writers try to put them in sync as characters (not
necessarily in time sync). An example is the recent appearance of
Willow in Angel, when she acted more like the Willow Wesley and
Cordelia and Angel knew in Sunnydale.
Buffy is more like the movie, in many ways, than (say) the X men movie
is like the comic books. The movie is in another universe, where
Iceman is not Scott and Jean's contemporary, for example, and Rogue
has taken over Kitty's place in the Wolverine storyline. Those two
X-men universes can't really meet, even though it is obvious the
movies are based on the comic book. Buffy is a lot closer to the
movie.
liv
l...@garbage.ziplink.net
take out the garbage to reply...
If you can't beat your computer at chess try kickboxing.
JoshB
> sam_...@yahoo.com (Sam) wrote in message news:<21ced21e.03042...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > I think it's worth mentioning that the storyline running on Angel was
> > already very nearly mentioned on Buffy. When Joyce comes to Buffy in
> > that dream and tells her how evil is natural and she can't stop the
> > sun from rising, the script has Joyce adding an extra line that was
> > cut before it reached the screen:
> >
> > "Are you worried about the sun going down? Because some things you
> > can't control. The sun always goes down. The sun always comes up."
> > (beat)
> > "Except in L.A., just of late."
>
> But it wasn't in the episode. That's what counts.
>
> Smaug69
Not allways.
At the very least it sows teh shows are in the same 'verse.
BTR1701
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BTR1702-210151...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
> > > this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
> > > which is it?
> >
> > They do form a coherent whole. You keep asking if you're missing
> > anything by not watching Angel. That's a question only you can answer.
>
> No, it's not. Is there anything about the FE or caleb or the Bringers
> or the turok-hans or the potentials I'm missing by not watching AtS?
Why do you have to be missing something in order for the shows to share
the same universe and compliment each other storywise?
> If I'm not missing anything then watching BtVS is all I need to form a
> coherent whole for BtVS.
But that doesn't negate the possibility that Buffy is part of a larger
story and larger universe.
> > But aside from your own personal confusion or lack thereof (which is
> > wholly irrelevant), it is possible to build a story such that both
> > shows can stand alone and yet still compliment each other and add nuances to
> > each other.
>
> Where is that on BtVS? What am I possibly learning about the events
> and characters on AtS?
Why do you have to learn anything?
This is another one of those criteria that you're pulling out of your
ass.
> > > > What does the history of television have to do with it? Yet another
> > > > irrelevancy you've dragged out of the clear blue sky.
> > >
> > > Is it too confusing for you to comprehend? No TV series has ever
> > > needed to be explained or understood by watching another TV series.
> >
> > So what? You keep saying this but you have yet to explain why the
> > history of television has anything to do with the issue at hand.
>
> Because you keep saying I need to watch AtS to get the whole picture
> for BtVS. That's just not true.
Please quote me one instance where I said you had to watch Angel to get
"the whole picture" (whatever that is).
And you *still* haven't explained what the history of television has to
do with any of this.
And even if television history did have something to do with this, it
still wouldn't mean anything. Prior to 1997, there had never been a show
in all of television history called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", either.
Didn't stop Whedon from airing one.
> > > > You seem to enjoy making up rules and criteria out of the blue to
> > > > bolster your argument.
> > >
> > > You're the one who is making shit up. The storylines do not
> > > intertwine...yet. And they may or may not do so.
> >
> > They do. The Willow going to L.A. and bringing Faith back is but one
> > example of that intertwining.
>
> What did Willow got to L.A. to do? She never said anything when she
> left and she never said anything onscreen when she got back. All we
> know is that faith helped Angel and that Willow came back with her.
So what? That doesn't negate the fact that the storylines on both shows
played into eacdh other.
> > > Nice backpedal. You go from saying the shows' storylines intertwine
> > > and that you have to see both series to get the whole picture
> >
> > I never said you have to see both series to get the whole picture.
> > Please quote back to me any post where I ever said that.
>
> "The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously form a coherent
> whole."
Funny. In that sentence you quoted I don't see any words that say "you
have to see both series to get the whole picture" in regards to the
Buffy show.
> This simply is not true. I don't need to see any episodes of AtS this
> season to get the coherent whole of the story on BtVS.
No, but you would if you wanted to get the whole story of the universe
Buffy shares with Angel.
> > > LOL. Now I see where you stand. You had no evidence to back up your
> > > original points so you have moved to a neutral stance.
> >
> > You're original position is that Buffy and Angel are two separate shows
> > that do not share the same universe and have no relation to each other.
> > You're the one who can't come up with any evidence to support that
> > position and goes to great and ridiculous lengths to fanwank away the
> > evidence to the contrary.
>
> This thread does not cover that subject.
Then why did you mention it in this thread?
> Please stick to the subject at hand- it's up there in the subject header.
Why all of a sudden have you decided I have to remain on the topic in
the subject header? Subject drift has been a hallmark of Usenet from day
one. For you to complain about that now is quaint.
> > > YOU were the one who made it an issue by telling me that to get the
> > > whole picture I had to see both shows. There is no truth in that.
> >
> > Please quote me any instance where I ever said you had to watch both
> > shows or stop saying this.
>
> See above.
I did. You haven't.
> > > YOU made it into another "shared universe" subthread and that is not
> > > what I am talking about.
> >
> > Then why did you say "these are two seaparate shows and Whedon and ME
> > are trying to keep them as separate as possible"?
>
> Because it was a bit of evidence from Whedon that suggests why there
> has been no entwining of storylines this season. It's deliberate on
> their part.
Sure, riiight. They're crossing over at least three characters between
the shows this season, mentioning aspects of one show on the other, but
yet they're deliberately trying to keep the shows separate, in separate
universes? Not likely.
If they were purposely trying to keep the shows separate, they'd have
kept Willow off Angel, kept Angel off Buffy and have left Faith in
prison or at least wouldn't have hooked her up with Willow, brought her
back to Sunnydale, than had her talk to Buffy about what she did in L.A.
with Angel.
No one's forcing the producers to do these things. They chose to do them
which means they are NOT deliberately trying to keep the shows as
separate as possible.
> > > Hey, that's canon on BtVS, Sparky. Go back and watch that episode.
> > > There's no mention of who Fred is or where Fred is calling from. But
> > > according to Andrew, Fred is a guy.
> >
> > Sorry. That's a crock of shit and you know it, Slappy. Those straws
> > just slipped away from you entirely.
>
> LOL. You are the one standing on the other side of the fence, Sparky.
> There is no onscreen evidence on BtVS that tells us Fred is not a guy.
Yes, there is. You're just desperately fanwanking it away, Slappy.
BTR1701
<l...@ziplink.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:22:55 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >Well, in the case of the movie, it really is completely different and
> >has no bearing on the TV show.
> ----------------
> Since the tv show immediately follows the movie, and has some
> similarities (Buffy's burning down the gym, for example,
Buffy never burned down the gym in the movie. This is just one of many
things about the movie that does not jive with the TV show.
and Buffy's
> statements about being in-crowd popular in her old school, and other
> things, such as the name and job description), it does have some
> bearing on the tv show.
No, there are way too many inconsistencies between the movie and the TV
show for them to ever by reconciled.
For example, in the movie, there was only one Watcher who was
reincarnated over and over and over again.
Also, in the movie, Buffy was a high school senior, not a sophomore as
she started out in the TV show.
mothperson
Call me crazy, and I probably am, but I could almost swear in last
week's episode a conversation between Buffy and Giles dated the moment
as before Christmas. I dunno. I can't believe I picked that idea out
of the blue, because I was so startled at the time, but I guess I'd
better rewatch the ep. Maybe I'm just suffering from pre-traumatic
stress syndrome. Thanks for pointing out that bit about May. And yes,
I am horribly bad at remembering titles of BtVS. Show me 5 seconds of
TXF, though, and I can Name That Ep immediately. If only we could
defrag our brains.
moth
Carmikl
>
>
> It occurs to me that, unless Angel specifically explains what was
> happening with Jasmine, the Scoobies might not realize that there
> was anything going on there for them to be concerned about.
>
> And it isn't exactly unprecedented for Angel to hold back
> information.
>
> I am, of course, assuming that there is something (perhaps the
> First or the Hellmouth) that prevents Jasmine's voice from
> affecting people in Sunnydale.
>
> --
And of course, they don't watch the national news or read the paper. By
the time Angel gets to Sunnydale, Jasmine with have taken control of the
State of California at least for a while, and that would make all of the
national and local news.
Even the Scoobies use the internet. They can't be that outta touch.
Carmikl
>
> On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch certain aspects
> >without watching the other and not be confused doesn't invalidate the
> >concept.
>
> They look to be 2 different stories to me, just some crossing over in
> the characters.
>
part of that other storyline. The two storylines intersected when the
characters in both storylines interacted.
Andrew took a phone call from Fred. Willow told Buffy she was leaving
for LA and escorted Faith from LA to Sunnydale. It's far more than just
one character putting a guest appearance.
Michael Ikeda
I don't think they're paying that much attention to the outside
world right now, except when it directly affects them. And none
of the news reports would have suggested that there was reason for
concern because anyone who talks to Jasmine immediately becomes
favorable toward her. Depending on how Jasmine gets defeated,
this might not last, or there might be some sort of "amnesia
effect" on her former followers (or even on most of the rest of
the world).
And who said that the Governor has made a PUBLIC announcement yet?
My suspicion is that the Scoobies reaction to Jasmine went roughly
as follows:
1) That's interesting. Someone called Jasmine is apparently a
bigshot in L.A. now.
2) (a couple of weeks later). Gee, what happened to Jasmine? Oh
well, probably wasn't important.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
ianboy
>BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> > Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
>> > this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
>> > which is it?
>>
>> They do form a coherent whole. You keep asking if you're missing
>> anything by not watching Angel. That's a question only you can answer.
>
>No, it's not. Is there anything about the FE or caleb or the Bringers
>or the turok-hans or the potentials I'm missing by not watching AtS?
>If I'm not missing anything then watching BtVS is all I need to form a
>coherent whole for BtVS.
Erm yes. As you no doubt consider Faith a part of the "valid"
Buffyverse (as she originated in adn has now returned to BtVS), then
the fact that she is part of the Slayer line that the FE is attacking
is very relevant. We have seen her attacked in prison in AtS "Salvage"
by a fellow prisoner with a Bringer knife, so the FE storyline has
correctly been addressed in AtS. But you want to ignore that crossover
for some reason I can't understand.
>> > You're the one who is making shit up. The storylines do not
>> > intertwine...yet. And they may or may not do so.
>>
>> They do. The Willow going to L.A. and bringing Faith back is but one
>> example of that intertwining.
>
>What did Willow got to L.A. to do? She never said anything when she
>left and she never said anything onscreen when she got back. All we
>know is that faith helped Angel and that Willow came back with her.
They have already intertwined, subtly, as I've shown, and they will
continue to do so. Do you disregard the way that news of Buffy's S5
death crossed over into AtS (via Willow turning up with the news) when
Angel and co. returned from Pylea? Oh, but you wouldn't have watched
that so you wouldn't know or care. Do you disregard the way that news
of Joyce's death filtered back to Angel and caused him to turn up and
comfort Buffy when he was no longer part of your "valid" Buffyverse?
There is no way that you can argue that the series are unconnected.
I'm sad you don't think that Angel is worth watching to "get" that
bigger picture and the occasional insight they shed on each other, but
you *can* probably survive without it if you are stubborn enough.
>"The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously form a coherent
>whole."
>
>This simply is not true. I don't need to see any episodes of AtS this
>season to get the coherent whole of the story on BtVS.
I gave one example at the top why that was not true. There is
suggestion from people who know more about the final episode spoilers
than me that there will be more before the end of both series.
>There is no onscreen evidence on BtVS that tells us Fred is not a guy.
>And that's about as compelling evidence as one can find to show that
>the two series are not entwining their storylines this season.
So when Angelus in AtS "Salvage" hears that a Slayer has arrived in
town, and phones Dawn up to ask if her sister is still at home, then
realises that it must be "the other one" when the obvious reply is
that Buffy is still in Sunnydale, is that not entwining? Of course, we
have no "onscreen evidence" for who Dawn is in AtS, do we?
This argument you are trying to make is so facetious it's laughable.
Ian
Carmikl
episodes so by that time the Jasmine issue will have been resolved, who
knows for how long.
Hunter
sma...@yahoo.com says...
> BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<BTR1702-79BFCE...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > In article <p90lav00kghdghmkk...@4ax.com>, Ian Galbraith
> > <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > >This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together, obviously
> > > >form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch certain aspects
> > > >without watching the other and not be confused doesn't invalidate the
> > > >concept.
> > >
> > > They look to be 2 different stories to me, just some crossing over in
> > > the characters.
> >
> > It's just that each show focuses on different aspects of the same
> > universe.
> >
> > But there is definite intertwining of the storylines.
>
> No, there isn't. Jasmine is an unknown entity in Sunnydale just as the
> FE is an unkown entity in L.A.
>
> > Willow leaves
> > Sunnydale on Buffy, shows up in LA on Angel.
>
> And we weren't told about what she did while she was there. She may or
> may not have given Faith a hand in helping Angel. There's no onscreen
> evidence for it.
So Andrew calling Willow to the phone and saying it was someone named
Fred that sounded oddly effeminate means nothing? I think it can be
said that Willow filled in the details to Buffy off screen. Common
Sense.
> > Leaves with Faith on Angel
> > and shows up Faith in Sunnydale. The events on one show flow coherently
> > into the events on the other.
>
> Well, according to BtVS the only event from AtS that was even
> mentioned in Dirty Girls was Faith helping Angel. If these two series
> were intertwining their storylines this season then we should have
> learned something about Jasmine and all that fun that led up to her.
>
> Smaug69
>
Matter of timing. Jasmine was just being born when Buffy was walking
down the street at the end of "Dirty Girls". The shows are out of syn
again, which is another reason you did not seem many crossovers of the
last two years; logistics.
Hunter
> Ian Galbraith <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote in
> news:p90lav00kghdghmkk...@4ax.com:
> > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0500, BTR1701
> > <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >>This makes no sense. The two storylines, when viewed together,
> >>obviously form a coherent whole. Just because a viewer can watch
> >>certain aspects without watching the other and not be confused
> >>doesn't invalidate the concept.
> >
> > They look to be 2 different stories to me, just some crossing
> > over in the characters.
> >
> >
> >
>
> It occurs to me that, unless Angel specifically explains what was
> happening with Jasmine, the Scoobies might not realize that there
> was anything going on there for them to be concerned about.
>
> And it isn't exactly unprecedented for Angel to hold back
> information.
>
> I am, of course, assuming that there is something (perhaps the
> First or the Hellmouth) that prevents Jasmine's voice from
> affecting people in Sunnydale.
>
>
As I keep saying, Jasmine was born around the end of "Dirty Girls" and
the next new Buffy episode "Empty Places", which picks up it seems
about an hour or so after "Dirty Girls" So there has not been any time
for Angel Inc. to notify Sunnydale. Only Angel and Conner knows of her
existence as far as the last BtVS episode is concerned.
Hunter
As I keep saying, Jasmine is just being born at the end of "Dirty
Girls".
Hunter
--
Hunter
In the interest of honest discloser I am privy to spoilers. There is a
good reason, even if Jasmine was around to do her mojo, for Sunnydale
not to be affected.
BTR1701
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> In article <5fe774aa.03042...@posting.google.com>,
> sma...@yahoo.com says...
> > And we weren't told about what she did while she was there. She may or
> > may not have given Faith a hand in helping Angel. There's no onscreen
> > evidence for it.
> ----
> So Andrew calling Willow to the phone and saying it was someone named
> Fred that sounded oddly effeminate means nothing? I think it can be
> said that Willow filled in the details to Buffy off screen. Common
> Sense.
You might as well give up now. Smaug is so far gone that he has
fanwanked this bit to say that the Fred Andrew mentioned was really a
guy and not the Fred from the Angel show.
Hunter
Rather soon since there are only two "Angel" episodes left. Angel is
not ahead of BtVS for the simple fact we have seen more "Angel"
episodes. Angel is due to appear on BtVS one real world week after
"Angel" airs the season finale on May 7th.
Smaug69
<snip>
> > But it wasn't in the episode. That's what counts.
> >
> > Smaug69
>
> Not allways.
Actually, always.
> At the very least it sows teh shows are in the same 'verse.
But that's not what we are discussing in this thread.
Smaug69
Tim Bruening
Hunter wrote:
However, I expect that Dawn should have heard about Jasmine (and earlier about the
great blackout) from her classmates, then told the other Scoobies. After all,
people in LA would have told their friends, relatives, and reporters outside lA
all about their love for Jasmine. If a Goddess I worshiped appeared in Davis, I
would tell my Mom and Stepdad in Florida!
Tim Bruening
Hunter wrote:
> In article <3EAC5A9A...@rcn.com>, Car...@rcn.com says...
> > Michael Ikeda wrote:
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > It occurs to me that, unless Angel specifically explains what was
> > > happening with Jasmine, the Scoobies might not realize that there
> > > was anything going on there for them to be concerned about.
> > >
> > > And it isn't exactly unprecedented for Angel to hold back
> > > information.
> > >
> > > I am, of course, assuming that there is something (perhaps the
> > > First or the Hellmouth) that prevents Jasmine's voice from
> > > affecting people in Sunnydale.
> > >
> > > --
> > And of course, they don't watch the national news or read the paper. By
> > the time Angel gets to Sunnydale, Jasmine with have taken control of the
> > State of California at least for a while, and that would make all of the
> > national and local news.
> >
> > Even the Scoobies use the internet. They can't be that outta touch.
> >
> ---
> As I keep saying, Jasmine is just being born at the end of "Dirty
> Girls".
Which means that by the end of "Empty Places", the news of the Jasmine cult
will be on the news in Sunnydale (expect that I have read spoilers that the
power will be out and most of the people gone, meaning that the distracted
Scoobies won't get the word!).
Carmikl
>
> In article <3EAC5A9A...@rcn.com>, Car...@rcn.com says...
> > Michael Ikeda wrote:
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > It occurs to me that, unless Angel specifically explains what was
> > > happening with Jasmine, the Scoobies might not realize that there
> > > was anything going on there for them to be concerned about.
> > >
> > > And it isn't exactly unprecedented for Angel to hold back
> > > information.
> > >
> > > I am, of course, assuming that there is something (perhaps the
> > > First or the Hellmouth) that prevents Jasmine's voice from
> > > affecting people in Sunnydale.
> > >
> > > --
> > And of course, they don't watch the national news or read the paper. By
> > the time Angel gets to Sunnydale, Jasmine with have taken control of the
> > State of California at least for a while, and that would make all of the
> > national and local news.
> >
> > Even the Scoobies use the internet. They can't be that outta touch.
> >
> ---
> As I keep saying, Jasmine is just being born at the end of "Dirty
> Girls".
> ----->Hunter
>
Sunnydale, and he wouldn't be there if the Jasmine problem hasn't been
resolved.
JoshB
>
> <snip>
>
> > > But it wasn't in the episode. That's what counts.
> > >
> > > Smaug69
> >
> > Not allways.
>
> Actually, always.
Nope.
>
> > At the very least it sows teh shows are in the same 'verse.
>
> But that's not what we are discussing in this thread.
>
> Smaug69
you were saying that the shows were sepeate, in different universes.
BTR1701
metr...@yahoo.com (JoshB) wrote:
Yes, he was saying that. But that argument has been so successfully
refuted that his last refuge is to say "that's not the subject of this
thread".
Smaug69
<snip>
> > > Not allways.
> >
> > Actually, always.
>
> Nope.
Yup.
> >
> > > At the very least it sows teh shows are in the same 'verse.
> >
> > But that's not what we are discussing in this thread.
> >
> > Smaug69
>
> you were saying that the shows were sepeate, in different universes.
For the purposes of their own storytelling, they are.
Smaug69
Smaug69
> On 27 Apr 2003 10:04:20 -0700, sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
>
> >BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> > Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
> >> > this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
> >> > which is it?
> >>
> >> They do form a coherent whole. You keep asking if you're missing
> >> anything by not watching Angel. That's a question only you can answer.
> >
> >No, it's not. Is there anything about the FE or caleb or the Bringers
> >or the turok-hans or the potentials I'm missing by not watching AtS?
> >If I'm not missing anything then watching BtVS is all I need to form a
> >coherent whole for BtVS.
>
> Erm yes. As you no doubt consider Faith a part of the "valid"
> Buffyverse (as she originated in adn has now returned to BtVS), then
> the fact that she is part of the Slayer line that the FE is attacking
> is very relevant. We have seen her attacked in prison in AtS "Salvage"
> by a fellow prisoner with a Bringer knife, so the FE storyline has
> correctly been addressed in AtS. But you want to ignore that crossover
> for some reason I can't understand.
What exactly was said on AtS about that attack? Was the FE mentioned?
Did you see any Bringers? If you hadn't been watching BtVS this season
would you have had any clue that it was connected to the events on
BtVS?
The point I have been trying to make all along is that if you don't
watch both shows then you don't know anything about each show's
particular storyline this season.
> This argument you are trying to make is so facetious it's laughable.
The funny thing is no one here has yet been able to puncture my
argument regarding my theory of the non-entwining storylines. If
anyone can show me where anything is said on BtVS about this season's
AtS storyline- you know, the one about Jasmine and all that jazz- or
even something concrete about the gender of Fred being anything other
than a guy then I certainly would love to see it.
Smaug69
JoshB
> metr...@yahoo.com (JoshB) wrote in message news:<c52a4e65.03042...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > Not allways.
> > >
> > > Actually, always.
> >
> > Nope.
>
> Yup.
>
No. You are a fool to think otherwise.
> > >
> > > > At the very least it sows teh shows are in the same 'verse.
> > >
> > > But that's not what we are discussing in this thread.
> > >
> > > Smaug69
> >
> > you were saying that the shows were sepeate, in different universes.
>
> For the purposes of their own storytelling, they are.
Nope, same verse. Just because we don't see what happens in one part
of the verse(On angel in LA) doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
>
> Smaug69
BTR1701
<l...@ziplink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:15:20 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <1i9oav8v212uukavu...@4ax.com>, liv
> ><l...@ziplink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:22:55 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> (snip)
> >> >Well, in the case of the movie, it really is completely different and
> >> >has no bearing on the TV show.
> >> ----------------
> >> Since the tv show immediately follows the movie, and has some
> >> similarities (Buffy's burning down the gym, for example,
> >
> >Buffy never burned down the gym in the movie. This is just one of many
> >things about the movie that does not jive with the TV show.
> ------------
> Yes, but the final battle happened in the school gym. 'Destroyed' or
> 'burned' are fairly equivalent, under the circumstances.
> ----------------------------------------------
> > and Buffy's
> >> statements about being in-crowd popular in her old school, and other
> >> things, such as the name and job description), it does have some
> >> bearing on the tv show.
> >
> >No, there are way too many inconsistencies between the movie and the TV
> >show for them to ever by reconciled.
> >
> >For example, in the movie, there was only one Watcher who was
> >reincarnated over and over and over again.
> >
> >Also, in the movie, Buffy was a high school senior, not a sophomore as
> >she started out in the TV show.
> ------------------
> Yes, there are a lot of things which can't be reconciled, but that
> actually wasn't the point. The point was that things were changed
> between the movie and the television show, because some things that
> seemed to work in the movie wouldn't work in the television show. Some
> of these things included Buffy's basic character, which was made more
> likable, in the long term, for the television show, and the watcher
> reincarnation thing, which just seemed pretty inexplicable, and
> limited the plot lines a fair bit, also, as you point out, Buffy was
> made younger, which allowed for more seasons shot in the highschool.
> Still, it is clearly the same general story, and there is a feeling of
> continuity, in a general way. The change was well done, all in all.
> But the movie clearly has some bearing on the television show. The
> television show was developed from the movie.
It was certainly the same general concept but in terms of continuity and
canon regarding the series, the movie is irrelevant.
As far as the TV series go, the story starts with "Welcome to the
Hellmouth", not the movie.
BTR1701
And yet they share the same universe and if you do watch both shows you
do know the significance of many things that you would otherwise be
saying "What the fuck is that all about?"
I know if I hadn't watched ANGEL, I'd be completely confused about Faith
being in prison, how and why Willow just suddenly up and left, then
showed up with Faith again and episode later, what the heck Faith was
talking about when she mentioned "doing a magickal mind-walk" with
Angel, etc, etc.
> > This argument you are trying to make is so facetious it's laughable.
>
> The funny thing is no one here has yet been able to puncture my
> argument regarding my theory of the non-entwining storylines.
She we have. It's just every time we do, you come up with some new and
inexplicable criteria (the history of television?!?!) or a desperate
fanwank to explain it away.
BTR1701
sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
Wasn't it you who was telling me just a day ago that this isn't the
subject of the thread and I wasn't supposed to be discussing that here?
Now here you making that same assertion again.
The shows do share the same universes. Faith's conversation with Buffy
in "Dirty Girls" proves that.
Michael Ikeda
news:MPG.191648a4b...@news.earthlink.net:
#2 hasn't happened yet on BtVS. Even #1 might not have happened
yet.
My basic point is that the Scoobies probably aren't going to pay
much attention to what is happening with Jasmine unless they
figure out that something supernatural is going on.
And they they might not figure out that anything supernatural is
going on unless they pay close attention.
Hunter
The thing is if they pay attention to Jasmine-who they don't know
exist yet-they would be mesmerized as well. Anyway, tomorrow's
(4/28/03) BtVS episode provides a good reason for why the good people
of Sunnydale will not be affected by that Los Angelos based morning
show that looked liked it aired one day or so after Jasmine was born.
The clue is in the title: "Empty Places" (I know the spoilers).
Hunter
sma...@yahoo.com says...
> ianboy <nos...@ianboy.com> wrote in message news:<sbnoav4r32ohipjq9...@4ax.com>...
> > On 27 Apr 2003 10:04:20 -0700, sma...@yahoo.com (Smaug69) wrote:
> >
> > >BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > ><snip>
> > >
> > >> > Hold on. You just got finished saying that both series' storylines
> > >> > this season form a coherent whole and yet here you're not so sure. So
> > >> > which is it?
> > >>
> > >> They do form a coherent whole. You keep asking if you're missing
> > >> anything by not watching Angel. That's a question only you can answer.
> > >
> > >No, it's not. Is there anything about the FE or caleb or the Bringers
> > >or the turok-hans or the potentials I'm missing by not watching AtS?
> > >If I'm not missing anything then watching BtVS is all I need to form a
> > >coherent whole for BtVS.
> >
> > Erm yes. As you no doubt consider Faith a part of the "valid"
> > Buffyverse (as she originated in adn has now returned to BtVS), then
> > the fact that she is part of the Slayer line that the FE is attacking
> > is very relevant. We have seen her attacked in prison in AtS "Salvage"
> > by a fellow prisoner with a Bringer knife, so the FE storyline has
> > correctly been addressed in AtS. But you want to ignore that crossover
> > for some reason I can't understand.
>
> What exactly was said on AtS about that attack? Was the FE mentioned?
> Did you see any Bringers? If you hadn't been watching BtVS this season
> would you have had any clue that it was connected to the events on
> BtVS?
A paid prison inmate attacked Faith with a Harbringer's knife. It was
prominaintly displayed by a correction officer after Faith beat the
hell out of the female bodybuilder who attacked her with it with a
barbell.
>
> The point I have been trying to make all along is that if you don't
> watch both shows then you don't know anything about each show's
> particular storyline this season.
Fair enough, but that does not mean they are not connected.
>
> > This argument you are trying to make is so facetious it's laughable.
>
> The funny thing is no one here has yet been able to puncture my
> argument regarding my theory of the non-entwining storylines. If
> anyone can show me where anything is said on BtVS about this season's
> AtS storyline- you know, the one about Jasmine and all that jazz- or
> even something concrete about the gender of Fred being anything other
> than a guy then I certainly would love to see it.
>
> Smaug69
>
Well, Jasmine was just being born at the end of the "Angel" episode
"Inside Out" with the BtVs episode "Dirty Girls" with Buffy walking
down the street dejected I believe since the two things happen about
one day after Faith and Willow left LA so there is nothing on Jasmine
to report. Anyway, Faith says to Buffy that she (Faith) was "doing a
magickal mind-walk" inside Angel's head and getting back Angelus was a
major plotline in "Angel".
Dan Milburn
>> > Hey, that's canon on BtVS, Sparky. Go back and watch that episode.
>> > There's no mention of who Fred is or where Fred is calling from. But
>> > according to Andrew, Fred is a guy.
>>
>> Sorry. That's a crock of shit and you know it, Slappy. Those straws
>> just slipped away from you entirely.
>
> LOL. You are the one standing on the other side of the fence, Sparky.
> There is no onscreen evidence on BtVS that tells us Fred is not a guy.
> And that's about as compelling evidence as one can find to show that the
> two series are not entwining their storylines this season.
So, to fully understand what's going on there, and to know who Fred
actually is, you need to have seen AtS. Isn't that the complete opposite
of your argument?
Dan
Smaug69
No. If you have read any of my posts in this thread then you know I'm
arguing the other side. How can anyone say that the shows storylines
are entwining this season when, as far as we know, based only on the
BtVS onscreen material, Fred is a guy who sounds effiminate.
Smaug69
Dan Milburn
I know you're arguing the other side, but I'm saying this example doesn't
support your argument. Because Fred *isn't* a guy who sounds effeminate,
she's a female character on AtS. The fact that this isn't stated
on-screen in BtVS doesn't make it any less true. They don't give us this
information, so to know what's actually going on - *why* Andrew thinks
it's a guy that sounds effeminate and why they might be calling Willow,
you'd have to watch AtS.
Sounds pretty entwined to me.
Dan
PJ Browning
recently.
But the truth is, the crap in Sunnydale with the hellmouth couldn't
have come at a better time.
The sun going out and all the nasties showing up in Los Angeles gave
Jasmine an enemy she could destroy to show how good she is.
Caleb and the ubervamps could serve the same purpose in Sunnydale. And
now that Jasmine's power has gotten so much stronger, it would be the
perfect time.