OT - ACORN, WTH?
daveparks
----------------------
http://www.ktok.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=119211&article=4378655
Brief Fling in OKC for Controversial ACORN
Didn't leave favorable impression with City organizations.
October 9, 2008
The controversial community organization group called ACORN, now under
investigation in 14 states for alleged voter fraud as it pushes the
election of Barack Obama once had offices in Oklahoma City. Before it
closed the offices at 2525 Northwest Expressway, suite $420, the
Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now left a less than
favorable impression with other community agencies and some city
leaders.
"Confrontational politics of the 60s and 70s" is how one city
official described ACORN as it came to the city about a year ago, led
a demonstration against police, tried to stir up community resentment
over a northeast side street lighting issue and attempted to obtain a
federal Community Development grant before it left town.
The city received a request for the HUD money from a Matthew Eaton
who represented ACORN. Internet searches reveal a Matt Eaton is the
South West Development Coordinator for ACORN who described himself as
an experienced grant writer and resource development coordinator. He
also claimed to be 'well versed in various forms of fund raising. "I
aspire to help raise enough money so ACORN offices in the Southwest
will be able to establish Tax Access and Benefit Centers in each of
its neighborhood locations and to register 300,000 new voters," wrote
Eaton in a website description of himself and his goals.
But less than a year after asking for the HUD money,Eaton and the
ACORN office in Oklahoma City were history. The city denied the
funding request and other neighborhood agencies indicated they too had
similar 'empty' relationships with ACORN. A spokeswoman of one such
group said when they asked an ACORN official about the group's
funding, they were told it could not be discussed.
At one point in the past year, ACORN members led a demonstration
against Oklahoma City police over an alleged incident involving some
minority youths near a northeast side movie theater. They also staged
a protest of alleged lack of street lighting in one northeast Oklahoma
City neighborhood near the OU Medical Center.
The organization has a Tulsa office at 531 E. 36th St. North and a
listed phone number. A voice mail indicated workers were in 'the field
working on the campaign'.
There was no indication if it was a voter-registration campaign or
a presidential campaign. An Oklahoma City spokesman said if the group
had received HUD money, there is a clear prohibition of political
lobbying.
While ACORN has been accused of falsely registered fictitious names
in other states, so far there have been no such accusations made in
Oklahoma. Oklahoma County election board secretary Doug Sanderson
indicated there were no problems and referred KTOK to the State board.
State Election Board Secretary Mike Klingman said he too had no such
reports of voter fraud allegations involving ACORN in Oklahoma.
--- end
from: http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7195
ACORN Voter Fraud Investigations Underway in Key Swing State of Ohio
October 9, 2008
The state of Ohio and the heavily Democratic area of Cuyahoga County
are yet again embroilled in elections controversy.
Claims from area residents that they have been hounded by the
community activist group ACORN to register to vote multiple times have
sparked an investigation by election officials into ACORN, whose
political wing has supported Barack Obama.
Yesterday two Ohio voters came forth and claimed that although they
had made it clear they were already registered to vote, ACORN
canvassers encouraged them to sign up several times. One of those was
Christopher Barkley of Cleveland, who estimates that he registered to
vote "10 to 15" times after ACORN relentlessly pursued him.
"I kept getting approached by folks who asked me to register,"
Barkley said. "They'd ask me if I was registered. I'd say yes, and
they'd ask me to do it [register] again. Some of them were getting
paid to collect names. That was their sob story, and I bought it," he
said.
The Cuyahoga County Board of Elections has thus far subpoenaed at
least three people as part of a wider inquiry into potential voter
fraud by ACORN. The community organization looks to register low-
income voters, that tend to overwhelmingly vote Democratic.
Lateala Goins, who was subpoeaned along with Barkley and others, said,
"You can tell them you're registered as many times as you want - they
do not care. They will follow you to the buses, they will follow you
home, it does not matter."
Also subpoenaed was Freddie Johnson, who filled out voter registration
cards a total of 72 times over the course of 18 months..
Elections officials state that registering under a fake name is
illegal, however they usually catch multiple registrations and get rid
of them. But where the major risk of fraud in large canvassing efforts
such as ACORN's comes into play is the possibility of ineligible
voters filing absentee ballots, and then avoiding checks at poling
places.
Kris Harsh, ACORN's Cleveland spokesman said that his group has
collected 100,000 voter registration cards, and only about 50 were
questionable.
Investigations into ACORN are not just underway in Ohio, but also in
Las Vegas. On Tuesday Nevada officials, with the help of local police
and FBI investigations over the past month, raided ACORN's Vegas
offices. The Las Vegas ACORN outfit is accused of signing people up to
vote multiple times, and in some cases using fake names such as the
Dallas Cowboys starting lineup.
--- end
from: http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7139
Las Vegas ACORN Office Raided in Voter Fraud Investigation
October 7, 2008
Nevada authorities raided the headquarters of the Association of
Community Organizations for Reform Now on Tuesday, which now stands
accused of submitting fraudulent voter registration forms. The raid
follows a month long investigation into voter fraud at ACORN, which
works to register low income people.
Amongst the fraudulent voter registrations was the Dallas Cowboys
starting line-up. Secretary of State Ross Miller said, "Tony Romo is
not registered to vote in the state of Nevada, and anybody trying to
pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot on Nov. 4."
Miller said that the group submitted voter registration forms with
false information, or duplicated information on multiple forms. He did
not estimate how many forms received from ACORN were fraudulent.
Interim chief organizer of ACORN, Bertha Lewis, said of the raid:
"Today's raid by the secretary of state's office is a stunt that
serves no useful purpose other than to discredit our work registering
Nevadans," Lewis said.
"For the past 10 months, anytime ACORN has identified a
potentially fraudulent application, we turn that application in to
election officials separately and offer to provide election officials
with the information they would need to pursue an investigation or
prosecution of the individual."
Lewis said ACORN turned in 46 problem applications submitted by 33
former employees in the Las Vegas area, where it has so far registered
80,000 people.
Nationwide ACORN claims to have registered 1.3 million people for the
November election. Complains of fraud in association with registration
efforts have also been reported in Michigan, Missouri, New Mexico,
North Carolina, Ohio, and Wisconsin.
Miller said at this point no one has been charged or arrested in
Nevada. His spokesman, Bob Walsh, said investigators were using info
from various sources, including the US attorney's office in Nevada and
the FBI.
--- end
Keeping any kind of partisanship out of this - whether you're
Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, Indie, Green, whatever -
this crooked ACORN outfit is complete and and utter BS.
WIH hasn't it been shut down already? And why the hell isn't the
Media covering this damn thing 24/7?!
It would seem that regardless of who the Winner is, the loser will
have at least a minimum of recourse in challenging the results - just
ridiculous.
callen...@yahoo.com
> Keeping any kind of partisanship out of this - whether you're
> Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, Indie, Green, whatever -
> this crooked ACORN outfit is complete and and utter BS.
> WIH hasn't it been shut down already? And why the hell isn't the
> Media covering this damn thing 24/7?!
>
> It would seem that regardless of who the Winner is, the loser will
> have at least a minimum of recourse in challenging the results - just
> ridiculous.
>
> http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html
Agree, Dave. I think it has been reported on mainstream media; my
husband was ranting about it last night and he doesn't read the
interwebs.
Callen in VA
daveparks
Jour hussband sounds like an esmart and locky man; wheech ees why jou
should leave heem for a hunky Latino who looks and esounds jos like
Antonio Banderas; bot of course I am junger, mush taller, and mosh
more .. ehhm, how jou say ... ah jes, ehandsome.
Now about this crooked-assed ACORN thing!?!
Micki Epstein
First article re: Oklahoma doesn't talk about any voter fraud by ACORN in
Oklahoma.
Second article re: Ohio quotes 3 voters saying they were "pressured" to
register multiple times. The ACORN rep says out of the 100,000
registrations they got, 50 were questionable.
Third Article re: Nevada says ACORN chief says there were 46 out of 80,000
registrations that were problems.
If the ACORN reps. are right I hardly see widespread voter fraud so no - I
disagree with you Dave and think ACORN should continue to try to get
legitimate registrations.
Micki
Newk Indofman
"daveparks" <davepa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6cfa3053-9353-44ab...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Now about this crooked-assed ACORN thing!?!
+++++++++++++++++++++
What's crooked is this anti-American war on voter registration, initiated by
Republican lawyers.
Vandar
It wasn't initiated by any specific party.
You do know that ACORN is on Obama's payroll, don't you?
Newk Indofman
"Vandar" <vand...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4awHk.61015$Nu3....@newsfe14.iad...
> Newk Indofman wrote:
>
>>
>> "daveparks" <davepa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6cfa3053-9353-44ab...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Now about this crooked-assed ACORN thing!?!
>> +++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> What's crooked is this anti-American war on voter registration, initiated
>> by Republican lawyers.
>
> It wasn't initiated by any specific party.
I don't think that's accurate. The Republicans are responding to an
unprecedented wave of new registrations organized largely by Democrats and
other Obama supporters. It appears they are unable to match that.
>
> You do know that ACORN is on Obama's payroll, don't you?
ACORN does a lot of good work.
Vandar
That doesn't excuse commission of a crime.
Anim8rFSK
Vandar <vand...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The crime is what Newk considers good work.
--
Third root canal - averted.
Hip Hip Hurrah!
daveparks
> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:47:39 -0700 (PDT), daveparks wrote:
> > 3 reports in just two days...
> > ----------------------
The first article describes the questionable, if not fully corrupt,
business practices and activities for which the ACORN group has now
become known.
> Second article re: Ohio quotes 3 voters saying they were "pressured" to
> register multiple times. The ACORN rep says out of the 100,000
> registrations they got, 50 were questionable.
And you don't have an issue with an organization who "pressured"
voters to register multiple times - a reported example of one person
registering "10 to 15" times? Wow.
> Third Article re: Nevada says ACORN chief says there were 46 out of 80,000
> registrations that were problems.
The case is still ongoing and again serves to illustrate that the
organization has a history of fraudulent and corrupt voter
registration practices.
> If the ACORN reps. are right I hardly see widespread voter fraud so no - I
> disagree with you Dave and think ACORN should continue to try to get
> legitimate registrations.
>
> Micki
You may not have a problem with an organization with an ongoing
history of voter fraud, unethical and illegal business practices, and
an organization which is proving to cause for wasted time and taxpayer
dollars in investigative resources - but I am, and IMO any private
company with an equal history would have been shut down years ago.
But I'm sure that's just me.
Micki Epstein
Obama's campaign gave ACORN $800,000 for the primaries, nothing for general
election.
Micki
Micki Epstein
Dave, I'm not sure what to think about ACORN at this point after watching a
very non-approving spot about it on Anderson Cooper (CNN) last night. This
was going to be a humble pie eating reply oday until I read this article
this morning:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/10/09/2008-10-09_gop_in_push_to_erase_voters_purges_acorn.html
GOP in push to erase voters; purges ACORN over drive to register low income
Friday, October 10th 2008, 2:36 AM
Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, a Democrat, has been locked in
several court battles with that state's Republican Party.
Battles are already erupting across America over allegations of voter fraud
and voter suppression.
The Republicans, as they usually do, would have you believe that hordes of
poor people, immigrants and felons are preparing to overrun the polls for
Barack Obama.
RELATED: RUSH IS ON TO REGISTER
Their biggest bogeyman is ACORN, a nationwide grass-roots organization that
has registered more than 1.3 million new low-income voters in the last
year.
Democrats and voting rights groups insist that hundreds of thousands of
legitimate voters, many of them poor, black or Hispanic, could lose the
chance to cast a ballot.
They say those groups will be the main victims of massive and improper
purges of voting lists in many states, as part of a Republican campaign to
challenge Democratic voters on Election Day.
Things are getting especially ugly in the key swing states.
The FBI raided an ACORN office in Las Vegas this week, carting off the
group's computers and voter registration records. Nevada election officials
say they'd received complaints about the forms ACORN submitted.
"Some of them used nonexistent names, some of them used false addresses and
some of them were duplicates of previously filed applications," one
official said.
In Cleveland, the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections has launched an
investigation of ACORN's registration efforts.
ACORN leader Bertha Lewis immediately blasted both probes as "part of a
carefully choreographed campaign to intimidate the largest organization of
black and Hispanic poor people in the country."
Meanwhile, Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, a Democrat, has been
locked in several court battles with that state's Republican Party over her
interpretation of election law.
In an interview Thursday, Brunner praised ACORN's leaders in her state and
said the warnings by local Republicans of significant voter fraud were
simply "unfounded."
During the past four years, Brunner said, Ohio has had only "four
individual cases [of voter fraud], with nearly 8 million registered voters,
and one of those was a husband and wife."
ACORN leaders say they were the first ones in Nevada to alert state
officials to problems with some of their voter registration forms.
The simple fact, they say, is that their registration drive employed more
than 13,000 canvassers as part an $18 million effort called Project Vote.
Those canvassers were paid only $8 an hour, and ACORN concedes that a small
portion turned in forms that were suspect.
But the group reviewed every form and kept track of which individuals
produced them.
"If they had too many mistakes or problems, we fired that person," Brian
Mellor, senior counsel for Project Vote, said. State law requires that
every filled out form must be handed over.
"I personally went to the office of the Clark County board of elections in
July and told them we're bringing these forms in, we've separated the ones
that have problems. You should investigate and prosecute those you feel
necessary. They told us they weren't interested."
Of course, a bunch of sloppy or duplicate registrations don't automatically
mean a conspiracy to vote illegally.
Yet a month before the election, here comes this FBI raid.
In case you haven't been paying attention, this is nothing new.
Republican leaders in New Mexico raised the same claims against an ACORN
registration drive in the last presidential vote. Then they tried to
pressure New Mexico's U.S. attorney, David Iglesias, an appointee of
President Bush, to bring a voter fraud indictment just before the 2006
congressional election.
After an investigation, Iglesias concluded there wasn't enough evidence. A
few months later, he was fired by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in what
became a big Justice Department scandal.
Last week, the department's inspector general concluded the firing was
"engineered" by former White House aide Karl Rove and New Mexico's
Republican Sen. Pete Domenici for Iglesias' refusal to pursue voter fraud
indictments.
We're racing toward the hardest-fought election of our time. If you're
registered, make sure you're still on the rolls.
I know, I know, it's the "liberal" Daily News. However, after being
reminded about what happened 4 years ago I'm not ready to eat that pie yet.
Micki
Vandar
Nothing that we know of. However, giving them $800k for voter
registration when they have a rather long record of voter registration
fraud is *extremely* bad judgment.
Obama spent a lot of time and effort espousing judgment as a prime
factor in who should get elected:
Jeremiah Wright.
William Ayers.
ACORN.
Fannie Mae CEO as an economic advisor.
Sub prime loans were "a good idea"
Opposed regulating the GSEs.
The surge is "a bad idea".
The surge has "worked beyond our wildest dreams".
Said in '06 that he won't run for POTUS in '08 because he doesn't have
enough experience.
ZERO accomplishments as a legislator.
But you think he's the best man for the job?
Mickey
You're being either naive or intellectually dishonest if think there
isn't some carry-over or ongoing deal with ACORN. (Did you not notice
the attempt by Democrats in the House to stick into their redraft of the
recovery bill funding for ACORN?) You don't want to hear this, but the
machine backing your guy is not liberal; they're radicals and utterly
unscrupulous. Part of the apparatus is the Chicago political machine and
the present Mayor Daley makes his dad look like a saint. BTW, in what
city does Ayers live?
Get your head out of the sand!
The Other Mickey
daveparks
> Micki Epstein wrote:
> > On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:10:16 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>
> >>Newk Indofman wrote:
>
Micki Epstein
> Micki Epstein wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:10:16 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Newk Indofman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"daveparks" <davepa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:6cfa3053-9353-44ab...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now about this crooked-assed ACORN thing!?!
>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>
>>>>What's crooked is this anti-American war on voter registration,
>>>>initiated by Republican lawyers.
>>>
>>>It wasn't initiated by any specific party.
>>>
>>>You do know that ACORN is on Obama's payroll, don't you?
>>
>>
>> Obama's campaign gave ACORN $800,000 for the primaries, nothing for general
>> election.
>
> Nothing that we know of. However, giving them $800k for voter
> registration when they have a rather long record of voter registration
> fraud is *extremely* bad judgment.
>
From one of my previous posts in this thread
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/10/09/2008-10-09_gop_in_push_to_erase_voters_purges_acorn.html
Republican leaders in New Mexico raised the same claims against an ACORN
registration drive in the last presidential vote. Then they tried to
pressure New Mexico's U.S. attorney, David Iglesias, an appointee of
President Bush, to bring a voter fraud indictment just before the 2006
congressional election.
After an investigation, Iglesias concluded there wasn't enough evidence. A
few months later, he was fired by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in what
became a big Justice Department scandal.
Last week, the department's inspector general concluded the firing was
"engineered" by former White House aide Karl Rove and New Mexico's
Republican Sen. Pete Domenici for Iglesias' refusal to pursue voter fraud
indictments.
We're racing toward the hardest-fought election of our time. If you're
registered, make sure you're still on the rolls.
> Obama spent a lot of time and effort espousing judgment as a prime
> factor in who should get elected:
>
> Jeremiah Wright.
> William Ayers.
> ACORN.
> Fannie Mae CEO as an economic advisor.
> Sub prime loans were "a good idea"
> Opposed regulating the GSEs.
> The surge is "a bad idea".
> The surge has "worked beyond our wildest dreams".
> Said in '06 that he won't run for POTUS in '08 because he doesn't have
> enough experience.
> ZERO accomplishments as a legislator.
>
> But you think he's the best man for the job?
Yes
Fannie Mae CEO is not an Obama economic advisor
Here's the link to the long answer
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_three_former_fannie_mae_executives_economic.html
Here's the short answer from factcheck's homepage:
"Are three former Fannie Mae executives "economic advisers" to Obama?
No, claims made in a chain e-mail are false. Jim Johnson advised on
non-economic matters but quit after a week. Franklin Raines says he took a
"couple of calls" but was never an adviser. We find no evidence Tim Howard
ever had a connection to the Obama campaign."
Gordon Liddy
Reverend Heggee
Keating
Council For World Freedom
Rick Davis Campaign Manager Freddie Mac Consultant
On going to war in Iraq: "It won’t be long…it’ll be a fairly short period
of time"
WMD's were definitely there
Voted with George Bush over 90% of the time
Voted against bill to ban waterboarding after saying it was torture, was
against US law and the Geneva Conventions.
Yes, I think Obama is the best man for the job.
Micki
Micki Epstein
First of all I'm on the fence about ACORN (see my other posts) Second of
all I bbelieve that we are currently seeing that it is McCain and the
Republicans who are far mor e unscrupulous. Get your head out of the sand.
Do you mean the Mayor Daley McCain spoke so highly of:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081010/pl_politico/14455;_ylt=ArNPLggE0jnD1UEpq7Fsc4SM5QcF
GOP ad attacks pol McCain praised
A new Republican Party ad called "Chicago Way" whacks Sen. Barack Obama
(D-Ill.) for his ties to "political boss William Daley," shown in sinister
black and white.
"William Daley: Heir to the Chicago machine," the narrator says. "A top
Obama adviser."
But, wait. Is this William Daley fellow really so bad?
He hasn't always been. Back in 1997, one John McCain, now titular head of
the party buying the ad attacking Daley, called Daley "an experienced,
talented individual," when he was confirmed as Commerce Secretary under
President Bill Clinton.
McCain, then chairman of the Commerce Committee, told the Chicago Tribune
the next year that Daley "has done a great deal to restore the
respectability and the influence of the Commerce Department on the Hill. He
kept his commitments."
Daley, a Chicago businessman and Obama adviser, is brother of Chicago Mayor
Richard M. Daley and son of the late Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley. He was
chairman of Vice President Al Gore's presidential campaign in 2000.
In 1997, McCain was quoted in the Tribune: "I applaud Secretary Daley for
keeping his word to Congress and the American people to attempt to take
politics out of the business of the Commerce Department's trade missions."
The Commerce Committee confirmed Daley 15-1. The Senate confirmed him 95-2.
McCain voted "yes" both times.
Micki
Mickey
Please document instance of voter fraud perpetrated by supporters of
McCain, particularly large scale operations occurring in multiple states
attributed to a single organization.
You seem to think being a Republican means one is unscrupulous. Well,
there are plenty of folk, just as silly, who believe being a Democrat
means the same thing. We are talking about a concerted attempt to
subvert the entire election system in this country. I would advice you
to remove your head from the sand, but I've done that already, and I'm
feeling too polite today to suggest that I originally miscalculated its
location.
This is proof of nothing other than politics. Besides, don't assume that
brothers necessarily share either ethical or political values, e.g.,
William J. and Robert S. Bennett. I would also remind you that brother
fought brother in out Civil War, and that David Kaczynski actively
helped authorities identify and locate his brother, unabomber, Ted
Kaczynski.
The Other Mickey
Micki Epstein
Once again, see my previous posts.
>
> You seem to think being a Republican means one is unscrupulous. Well,
> there are plenty of folk, just as silly, who believe being a Democrat
> means the same thing. We are talking about a concerted attempt to
> subvert the entire election system in this country. I would advice you
> to remove your head from the sand, but I've done that already, and I'm
> feeling too polite today to suggest that I originally miscalculated its
> location.
>
No, you were talking about general unscrupulousness and the lies and
innuendos of the McCain\Palin campaign trump any of Obama\Biden campaign.
I'd say McCain\Palin had a Grand Slam in Unscrupulousness going.
Duh. The ad slams WILLIAM DALEY, the one McCain praised - not his brother.
Micki
Vandar
(this post came through as HTML for some odd reason)
> From one of my previous posts in this thread
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/10/09/2008-10-09_gop_in_push_to_erase_voters_purges_acorn.html
>
> Republican leaders in New Mexico raised the same claims against an ACORN
> registration drive in the last presidential vote. Then they tried to
> pressure New Mexico's U.S. attorney, David Iglesias, an appointee of
> President Bush, to bring a voter fraud indictment just before the 2006
> congressional election.
>
> After an investigation, Iglesias concluded there wasn't enough evidence. A
> few months later, he was fired by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in what
> became a big Justice Department scandal.
>
> Last week, the department's inspector general concluded the firing was
> "engineered" by former White House aide Karl Rove and New Mexico's
> Republican Sen. Pete Domenici for Iglesias' refusal to pursue voter fraud
> indictments.
>
> We're racing toward the hardest-fought election of our time. If you're
> registered, make sure you're still on the rolls.
>
> jgon...@nydailynews.com
ACORN's history of voter fraud (in favor of Democrats) is well documented.
2004 - Two ACORN employees indicted for voter fraud in Ohio.
2005 - Two ACORN employees convicted of voter fraud in Colorado.
2006 - Four ACORN employees indicted for voter fraud in Missouri.
2007 - Five ACORN employees sent to jail for voter fraud in Washington.
Obama then gives an ACORN affiliate $800,000 for voter registration.
2008 - Numerous investigations being conducted in relation to
accusations of voter registration fraud across the country by ACORN.
ACORN endorsed Obama.
>>Obama spent a lot of time and effort espousing judgment as a prime
>>factor in who should get elected:
>>
>>Jeremiah Wright.
>>William Ayers.
>>ACORN.
>>Fannie Mae CEO as an economic advisor.
>>Sub prime loans were "a good idea"
>>Opposed regulating the GSEs.
>>The surge is "a bad idea".
>>The surge has "worked beyond our wildest dreams".
>>Said in '06 that he won't run for POTUS in '08 because he doesn't have
>>enough experience.
>>ZERO accomplishments as a legislator.
>>
>>But you think he's the best man for the job?
>
>
> Yes
>
> Fannie Mae CEO is not an Obama economic advisor
Not officially, but he is someone Obama consults with.
> Here's the link to the long answer
> http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_three_former_fannie_mae_executives_economic.html
> Here's the short answer from factcheck's homepage:
> "Are three former Fannie Mae executives "economic advisers" to Obama?
> No, claims made in a chain e-mail are false. Jim Johnson advised on
> non-economic matters but quit after a week. Franklin Raines says he took a
> "couple of calls" but was never an adviser. We find no evidence Tim Howard
> ever had a connection to the Obama campaign."
>
> Gordon Liddy
Did his time.
> Reverend Heggee
Hagee? What about him. He's just a preacher that endorsed McCain. He's
not McCain's preacher. He's not even in the same state.
If we're going to get into endorsements by shady characters, look at
some of the people/groups that have endorsed Obama:
Louis Farrakhan
Al Sharpton
Jesse Jackson
Hamas
Kim Jong Il
Fidel Castro
> Keating
Absolved of any wrongdoing.
> Council For World Freedom
Was on in a supporting role for two years immediately after he was elected.
"I didn't know whether [the group's activity] was legal or illegal, but
I didn't think I wanted to be associated with them" - John McCain, 1986.
> Rick Davis Campaign Manager Freddie Mac Consultant
So?
> On going to war in Iraq: "It won’t be long…it’ll be a fairly short period
> of time"
And he admits he was wrong. Try getting Obama to admit that.
> WMD's were definitely there
He was he was confident we would find them, not that they were
definitely there.
> Voted with George Bush over 90% of the time
So? Bush hasn't been wrong 100% of the time.
Obama has voted with his party 97% of the time. That's 3% away from
Topcat's polar opposite!
> Voted against bill to ban waterboarding after saying it was torture, was
> against US law and the Geneva Conventions.
He voted against it in support of Bush's intended veto, as he believed
waterboarding was already illegal. He explained that.
FTR, Obama claimed he was for the ban, but didn't bother showing up to
vote. He was too busy seeking a promotion to do his job.
> Yes, I think Obama is the best man for the job.
If you think the best man for the job is a man with years in the Senate
and absolutely NO accomplishments of any kind, more power to ya.
Don't expect his record of accomplishments to improve if he wins. Like
he's done his entire career, he'll be fiddling while Rome burns.
Rocky
$.d...@40tude.net:
> I'd say McCain\Palin had a Grand Slam in Unscrupulousness going.
>
May I suggest Unscrupulosity
Mickey
Duh. You ignored that my reference was to Mayor Richard Daley and you
posted something about his brother, i.e., your post was non-responsive,
a red herring. In any event, my post also referred to the Chicago
machine, so does it matter all that much whether I referred directly to
Michael Corleone or his brother Sonny.
The Other Mickey
Tin@
> Micki Epstein wrote:
> > On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:10:16 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>
> >>Newk Indofman wrote:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
And dont forget, he chose as his VP someone who said he wasn't
qualified for the job.
Micki Epstein
> Micki Epstein wrote:
>
> (this post came through as HTML for some odd reason)
SCREETCH!! Why, when this isn't even an option I have? I wish i could
figure this out.
And the NRA endorsed McCain. You may like them. I don't. And I already
said I'm on the fence about ACORN but indictments aren't convictions and we
saw what happened in 2004 to US DA's who couldn't find fraud in ACORN.
Look, ACORN does what all this organizations do - pay college students and
the unemployed to get signatures, money, etc. They pay by the hour and
want (as any employer would) to see results so dishonest people commit
fraud. I don't condone it but I understand it. Walking from 88th Street
to 112 Street today I got stopped (and once practically harassed) by people
looking for donations for the environment, gay rights, feeding the homeless
and believe it or not - Lyndon LaRouche. Those collecting money can't cheat
but those who collect signatures and voter registrations can and
unfortunately some do.
>>>Obama spent a lot of time and effort espousing judgment as a prime
>>>factor in who should get elected:
>>>
>>>Jeremiah Wright.
>>>William Ayers.
>>>ACORN.
>>>Fannie Mae CEO as an economic advisor.
>>>Sub prime loans were "a good idea"
>>>Opposed regulating the GSEs.
>>>The surge is "a bad idea".
>>>The surge has "worked beyond our wildest dreams".
>>>Said in '06 that he won't run for POTUS in '08 because he doesn't have
>>>enough experience.
>>>ZERO accomplishments as a legislator.
>>>
>>>But you think he's the best man for the job?
>>
>>
>> Yes
>>
>> Fannie Mae CEO is not an Obama economic advisor
>
> Not officially, but he is someone Obama consults with.
See below. No he is not
>
>> Here's the link to the long answer
>> http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_three_former_fannie_mae_executives_economic.html
>> Here's the short answer from factcheck's homepage:
>> "Are three former Fannie Mae executives "economic advisers" to Obama?
>> No, claims made in a chain e-mail are false. Jim Johnson advised on
>> non-economic matters but quit after a week. Franklin Raines says he took a
>> "couple of calls" but was never an adviser. We find no evidence Tim Howard
>> ever had a connection to the Obama campaign."
>>
>> Gordon Liddy
>
> Did his time.
So that makes it right that McCain thinks he's a good friend?
>
>> Reverend Heggee
>
> Hagee? What about him. He's just a preacher that endorsed McCain. He's
> not McCain's preacher. He's not even in the same state.
McCain went out of his way looking for his endorsement.
>
> If we're going to get into endorsements by shady characters, look at
> some of the people/groups that have endorsed Obama:
> Louis Farrakhan
> Al Sharpton
> Jesse Jackson
> Hamas
> Kim Jong Il
> Fidel Castro
>
>> Keating
>
> Absolved of any wrongdoing.
Keating was not absolved of any wrongdoing. He went to jail. McCain was
was cleared of having acted improperly but wascriticized for having
exercised "poor judgment".
>
>> Council For World Freedom
>
> Was on in a supporting role for two years immediately after he was elected.
> "I didn't know whether [the group's activity] was legal or illegal, but
> I didn't think I wanted to be associated with them" - John McCain, 1986.
Was that good judgement to be on a board where you didn't know whether
their activity was legal or illegal?
>
>> Rick Davis Campaign Manager Freddie Mac Consultant
>
> So?
You're kidding - right?
>
>> On going to war in Iraq: "It won’t be long…it’ll be a fairly short period
>> of time"
>
> And he admits he was wrong. Try getting Obama to admit that.
Obama has admitted it. Go check out the O'Reilly tape
>
>> WMD's were definitely there
>
> He was he was confident we would find them, not that they were
> definitely there.
Same thing to me.
>
>> Voted with George Bush over 90% of the time
>
> So? Bush hasn't been wrong 100% of the time.
> Obama has voted with his party 97% of the time. That's 3% away from
> Topcat's polar opposite!
Ah, but he's a Maverick and Barak voting with his party (Dems) is not the
same as voting with George Bush.
>> Voted against bill to ban waterboarding after saying it was torture, was
>> against US law and the Geneva Conventions.
>
> He voted against it in support of Bush's intended veto, as he believed
> waterboarding was already illegal. He explained that.
>
> FTR, Obama claimed he was for the ban, but didn't bother showing up to
> vote. He was too busy seeking a promotion to do his job.
>
>> Yes, I think Obama is the best man for the job.
>
> If you think the best man for the job is a man with years in the Senate
> and absolutely NO accomplishments of any kind, more power to ya.
> Don't expect his record of accomplishments to improve if he wins. Like
> he's done his entire career, he'll be fiddling while Rome burns.
Okay, I agree, we've done this one to death.
Micki
Tin@
Micki Epstein
Ya can suggest but I like my word:)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/%20Unscrupulousness
3 dictionary results for: Unscrupulousness
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
unúscruúpuúlous /?n'skrupy?l?s/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[uhn-skroo-pyuh-luhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation
-adjective not scrupulous; unrestrained by scruples; conscienceless;
unprincipled.
Micki
Vandar
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:10:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>
>
>>Micki Epstein wrote:
>>
>>(this post came through as HTML for some odd reason)
>
>
> SCREETCH!! Why, when this isn't even an option I have? I wish i could
> figure this out.
No idea. It's no big deal to me. I just thought you'd want to know
because I saw the discussion about it in another thread.
I'm not a big fan of the NRA.
> And I already
> said I'm on the fence about ACORN but indictments aren't convictions and we
> saw what happened in 2004 to US DA's who couldn't find fraud in ACORN.
> Look, ACORN does what all this organizations do - pay college students and
> the unemployed to get signatures, money, etc. They pay by the hour and
> want (as any employer would) to see results so dishonest people commit
> fraud. I don't condone it but I understand it. Walking from 88th Street
> to 112 Street today I got stopped (and once practically harassed) by people
> looking for donations for the environment, gay rights, feeding the homeless
> and believe it or not - Lyndon LaRouche. Those collecting money can't cheat
> but those who collect signatures and voter registrations can and
> unfortunately some do.
What, no "Free Mumia" protestors? I'm shocked. :)
>>>>Obama spent a lot of time and effort espousing judgment as a prime
>>>>factor in who should get elected:
>>>>
>>>>Jeremiah Wright.
>>>>William Ayers.
>>>>ACORN.
>>>>Fannie Mae CEO as an economic advisor.
>>>>Sub prime loans were "a good idea"
>>>>Opposed regulating the GSEs.
>>>>The surge is "a bad idea".
>>>>The surge has "worked beyond our wildest dreams".
>>>>Said in '06 that he won't run for POTUS in '08 because he doesn't have
>>>>enough experience.
>>>>ZERO accomplishments as a legislator.
>>>>
>>>>But you think he's the best man for the job?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes
>>>
>>>Fannie Mae CEO is not an Obama economic advisor
>>
>>Not officially, but he is someone Obama consults with.
>
>
> See below. No he is not
He's not officially an advisor, but that Obama consults (or consulted)
with him has never been denied by Obama.
>>>Here's the link to the long answer
>>>http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_three_former_fannie_mae_executives_economic.html
>>>Here's the short answer from factcheck's homepage:
>>>"Are three former Fannie Mae executives "economic advisers" to Obama?
>>>No, claims made in a chain e-mail are false. Jim Johnson advised on
>>>non-economic matters but quit after a week. Franklin Raines says he took a
>>>"couple of calls" but was never an adviser. We find no evidence Tim Howard
>>>ever had a connection to the Obama campaign."
>
>
>
>>>Gordon Liddy
>>
>>Did his time.
>
>
> So that makes it right that McCain thinks he's a good friend?
It makes it irrelevant. Liddy broke the law, got caught, served his
time, and has gone nearly 35 years since without getting busted.
>>>Reverend Heggee
>>
>>Hagee? What about him. He's just a preacher that endorsed McCain. He's
>>not McCain's preacher. He's not even in the same state.
>
>
> McCain went out of his way looking for his endorsement.
A lot of people listen to Hagee.
>>If we're going to get into endorsements by shady characters, look at
>>some of the people/groups that have endorsed Obama:
>>Louis Farrakhan
>>Al Sharpton
>>Jesse Jackson
>>Hamas
>>Kim Jong Il
>>Fidel Castro
>>
>>
>>>Keating
>>
>>Absolved of any wrongdoing.
>
>
> Keating was not absolved of any wrongdoing. He went to jail. McCain was
> was cleared of having acted improperly but wascriticized for having
> exercised "poor judgment".
That's what I meant, McCain was absolved of any wrongdoing.
>>>Council For World Freedom
>>
>>Was on in a supporting role for two years immediately after he was elected.
>>"I didn't know whether [the group's activity] was legal or illegal, but
>>I didn't think I wanted to be associated with them" - John McCain, 1986.
>
>
> Was that good judgement to be on a board where you didn't know whether
> their activity was legal or illegal?
When he started questioning it is when he left.
>>>Rick Davis Campaign Manager Freddie Mac Consultant
>>
>>So?
>
>
> You're kidding - right?
No. The company Davis worked for did some work for Freddie Mac. So what?
>>>On going to war in Iraq: "It won’t be long…it’ll be a fairly short period
>>>of time"
>>
>>And he admits he was wrong. Try getting Obama to admit that.
>
>
> Obama has admitted it. Go check out the O'Reilly tape
O'Reilly? Do I have to? :)
Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
the surge and he would not do it.
>>>WMD's were definitely there
>>
>>He was he was confident we would find them, not that they were
>>definitely there.
>
>
> Same thing to me.
>
>>>Voted with George Bush over 90% of the time
>>
>>So? Bush hasn't been wrong 100% of the time.
>>Obama has voted with his party 97% of the time. That's 3% away from
>>Topcat's polar opposite!
>
>
> Ah, but he's a Maverick and Barak voting with his party (Dems) is not the
> same as voting with George Bush.
Here's a shocker. I'm no fan of Bush. I think he's completely
undeserving of his job. That said, he's been right about more things
than the Democrats have been.
>>>Voted against bill to ban waterboarding after saying it was torture, was
>>>against US law and the Geneva Conventions.
>>
>>He voted against it in support of Bush's intended veto, as he believed
>>waterboarding was already illegal. He explained that.
>>
>>FTR, Obama claimed he was for the ban, but didn't bother showing up to
>>vote. He was too busy seeking a promotion to do his job.
>>
>>
>>>Yes, I think Obama is the best man for the job.
>>
>>If you think the best man for the job is a man with years in the Senate
>>and absolutely NO accomplishments of any kind, more power to ya.
>>Don't expect his record of accomplishments to improve if he wins. Like
>>he's done his entire career, he'll be fiddling while Rome burns.
>
>
> Okay, I agree, we've done this one to death.
Nuke it again! I thought I saw a finger move. :)
Newk Indofman
It's not going to sway the election.
Newk Indofman
++++++++++++++++++
Yes, it's your usual hyper-exaggerated panic whine.
Newk Indofman
Salad
This post came to my reader in large fonts.
Rocky
It is a real word. Same source you cited.
1 dictionary results for: unscrupulosity
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
un·scru·pu·lous /?n'skrupy?l?s/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[uhn-skroo-pyuh-luhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation
–adjective not scrupulous; unrestrained by scruples; conscienceless;
unprincipled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
[Origin: 1795–1805; un-1 + scrupulous]
—Related forms
un·scru·pu·lous·ly, adverb
un·scru·pu·lous·ness, un·scru·pu·los·i·ty /?n?skrupy?'l?s?ti/
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-skroo-pyuh-los-i-tee]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, noun
—Synonyms Unscrupulous, unprincipled refer to lack of moral standards or
conscience to guide one's conduct. The unscrupulous person is without
scruples of conscience, and disregards, or has contempt for, laws of
right or justice with which he or she is perfectly well acquainted, and
which should restrain his or her actions: unscrupulous in methods of
making money, in taking advantage of the unfortunate. The unprincipled
person is without moral principles or ethical standards in his or her
conduct or actions: an unprincipled rogue; unprincipled conduct.
Mickey
And yours showed up in small fonts, and, when I went to respond, all the
text shrank including my response.
The Other Mickey
Salad
And your response, this one, came up as large font. Someone else
mentioned your OP, the one I responded to, came in as HTML. Must be a
gremlin.
Micki Epstein
Hey, we agree upon something :)
>
>> And I already
>> said I'm on the fence about ACORN but indictments aren't convictions and we
>> saw what happened in 2004 to US DA's who couldn't find fraud in ACORN.
>> Look, ACORN does what all this organizations do - pay college students and
>> the unemployed to get signatures, money, etc. They pay by the hour and
>> want (as any employer would) to see results so dishonest people commit
>> fraud. I don't condone it but I understand it. Walking from 88th Street
>> to 112 Street today I got stopped (and once practically harassed) by people
>> looking for donations for the environment, gay rights, feeding the homeless
>> and believe it or not - Lyndon LaRouche. Those collecting money can't cheat
>> but those who collect signatures and voter registrations can and
>> unfortunately some do.
>
> What, no "Free Mumia" protestors? I'm shocked. :)
Isn't LaRouche enough?
Gotcha - political expediency
>
>>>If we're going to get into endorsements by shady characters, look at
>>>some of the people/groups that have endorsed Obama:
>>>Louis Farrakhan
>>>Al Sharpton
>>>Jesse Jackson
>>>Hamas
>>>Kim Jong Il
>>>Fidel Castro
>>>
>>>
>>>>Keating
>>>
>>>Absolved of any wrongdoing.
>>
>>
>> Keating was not absolved of any wrongdoing. He went to jail. McCain was
>> was cleared of having acted improperly but wascriticized for having
>> exercised "poor judgment".
>
> That's what I meant, McCain was absolved of any wrongdoing.
Just 'poor judgement"
>
>>>>Council For World Freedom
>>>
>>>Was on in a supporting role for two years immediately after he was elected.
>>>"I didn't know whether [the group's activity] was legal or illegal, but
>>>I didn't think I wanted to be associated with them" - John McCain, 1986.
>>
>>
>> Was that good judgement to be on a board where you didn't know whether
>> their activity was legal or illegal?
>
> When he started questioning it is when he left.
What took him so long?
>
>>>>Rick Davis Campaign Manager Freddie Mac Consultant
>>>
>>>So?
>>
>>
>> You're kidding - right?
>
> No. The company Davis worked for did some work for Freddie Mac. So what?
He got money from it.
>
>>>>On going to war in Iraq: "It won’t be long…it’ll be a fairly short period
>>>>of time"
>>>
>>>And he admits he was wrong. Try getting Obama to admit that.
>>
>>
>> Obama has admitted it. Go check out the O'Reilly tape
>
> O'Reilly? Do I have to? :)
>
> Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
> the surge and he would not do it.
He did!
>>>>WMD's were definitely there
>>>
>>>He was he was confident we would find them, not that they were
>>>definitely there.
>>
>>
>> Same thing to me.
>>
>>>>Voted with George Bush over 90% of the time
>>>
>>>So? Bush hasn't been wrong 100% of the time.
>>>Obama has voted with his party 97% of the time. That's 3% away from
>>>Topcat's polar opposite!
>>
>>
>> Ah, but he's a Maverick and Barak voting with his party (Dems) is not the
>> same as voting with George Bush.
>
> Here's a shocker. I'm no fan of Bush. I think he's completely
> undeserving of his job. That said, he's been right about more things
> than the Democrats have been.
>
Disagree
>>>>Voted against bill to ban waterboarding after saying it was torture, was
>>>>against US law and the Geneva Conventions.
>>>
>>>He voted against it in support of Bush's intended veto, as he believed
>>>waterboarding was already illegal. He explained that.
>>>
>>>FTR, Obama claimed he was for the ban, but didn't bother showing up to
>>>vote. He was too busy seeking a promotion to do his job.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, I think Obama is the best man for the job.
>>>
>>>If you think the best man for the job is a man with years in the Senate
>>>and absolutely NO accomplishments of any kind, more power to ya.
>>>Don't expect his record of accomplishments to improve if he wins. Like
>>>he's done his entire career, he'll be fiddling while Rome burns.
>>
>>
>> Okay, I agree, we've done this one to death.
>
> Nuke it again! I thought I saw a finger move. :)
LOL LOL LOL
Hey, ya know I'm a woman. I have to have the last word.
Micki
QuiG...@webtv.net
Mickey
> fight the smears
>
> http://www.fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor
>
>
And how do we know this isn't just a spin control site?
The Other Mickey
Mickey
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>
>>
>> Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
>> the surge and he would not do it.
>
> He did!
Sorry. He didn't. He said damned near anything except admit that he was
wrong.
The Other Mickey
Rocky
$hc1...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:
But he did say it.
On Sept 4th, while campaigning. He has avoided restating this during both
debates. He should just fess up again and be done with it. Instead, he
leaves this as fodder for McNasty.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26550764/
Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said Thursday that the
escalation of U.S. troops in Iraq, which he had opposed, has succeeded in
reducing violence "beyond our wildest dreams."
Speaking to several thousand people in a sun-drenched park in Lancaster,
Obama said his Republican opponent, John McCain, "wants to ignore the first
five years of the war and just talk about the last one. And that's fair,
because the truth is that the violence has gone down beyond our
expectations."
However, Obama said, "the argument was and continues to be: When are we
going to turn over responsibility to the Iraqis for their own country? When
are they going to resolve their political differences?"
That will happen when he is president, Obama said, "because we are going to
withdraw our troops" and, while giving Iraqis support, "we are going to
bring this war to a close."
Vandar
"Paid for by Obama For America"
How more unbiased can they get? <rolls eyes>
Mickey
> Mickey <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote in news:bqRHk.2116
> $hc1...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:
>
>> Micki Epstein wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
>>>> the surge and he would not do it.
>>> He did!
>> Sorry. He didn't. He said damned near anything except admit that he was
>> wrong.
>>
>> The Other Mickey
>>
I over clipped. The thread, I believe, referred to the O'Reilly
interview. (He may have subtly changed his tune after his handlers
assessed the possible effect of his performance on that show.)
BTW, saying that something (which you opposed) worked beyond your
wildest dreams is hardly a denial. More like trying to take credit for
someone else's decision while never admitting your own fundamental
error. His answer is entirely too nuanced to be considered a mea culpa.
God would not buy it, and I, being considerably less forgiving, merely
say, "Feh."
The Other Mickey
Rocky
news:79SHk.2121$hc1...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:
Obama simply doesnt know when he is in a fight, nor does he know how to
fight.
I would have made a face and acted offended when McCain made the "That
one" comment. Obama was biting his tongue. Hell, show some emotion
Obama.
He missed so many opportunities on this issue.
Cause and effect are not necessarily nexused here.
There was an earlier surge of similar numbers that had no such effect.
Al Sadr had already called for ceasefire pre surge.
I think Obama could have argued that even if the surge has worked, the
philosopy for five years was flawed, and more of the same would be
crystal ball politics at best, and the prudent thing was to cut losses.
I think he should have dug in and made some sort of well thought cogent
argument to support his decision at that time. If he is going to be the
anti war guy, do it all the way.
Instead, he has let McCain define him on surge, and in doing so, taken
away any war advantage Obama had. Now he either has to eat crow or
ignore the constant surge drumbeat from McCain. Its lose lost.
To be honest, McCain has little else besides race, terror, surge, and
earmarks, and all of them are trumped by the economy. Days are clicking
away.
Today, McCain was forced to defend Obama when several protesters and
supuporters called Obama a terrorist, stated they were afraid if Obama
became President because of his terrorist ties, called him an Arab, etc.
McCain grabbed a mic out of a womans hands to correct her, and had to
tel another die hard that Obama is a decent family man. McCains own
gambit has caused many of his supporters to go overt with their racist
chatter, and John was forced to defend Obama, while his own supporters
were booing him (McCain).
Mickey
I heard and saw the clip. McCain said there was no reason to fear a
President Obama. Frankly, Obama scares the living whoop whoop out of me
and it has absolutely nothing to do with his race (or religion). He is
either too naive for the job or the most accomplished liar to run for
the office during my lifetime. If he gets elected - saints preserve us -
I hope it's the latter. (For an example of what I fear domestically and
economically: if SS and Medicare have given us inescapable financial
nightmare, his notion that health care is a right and should come under
even more Federal control is positively bangungot. I have even less
faith in him in foreign affairs.)
The Other Mickey
Newk Indofman
"Mickey" <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote in message
news:4kTHk.3091$D32...@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
I'll alert the media.
Micki Epstein
To me saying that the surge worked beyond our wildest dreams is the same
thing. To you it is not.
O'REILLY: If we didn't, they would have used it as a staging ground. We've
also inhibited Iran from controlling the southern part of Iraq by the
surge, which you did not support. So why won't you say, "I was right in the
beginning. I was wrong about that"?
OBAMA: If you listen to what I've said, and I'll repeat it right here on
this show, I think that there's no doubt that the violence is down. I
believe that that is a testimony to the troops that were sent and General
Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. I think that the surge has succeeded in
ways that nobody anticipated, by the way, including President Bush and the
other supporters. It has gone very well, partly because of the Anbar
situation and the Sunni awakening, partly because of the Shia military.
Look...
O'REILLY: But if it were up to you, there wouldn't have been a surge.
OBAMA: Look...
O'REILLY: No, no, no, no.
OBAMA: No, no, no...
O'REILLY: If it were up to you, there wouldn't have been a surge.
OBAMA: No, no, no.
O'REILLY: You and Joe Biden, no surge.
OBAMA: Hold on a second, Bill. If you look at the debate that was taking
place, we had gone through five years of mismanagement of this war that I
thought was disastrous. And the president wanted to double down and
continue on an open-ended policy that did not create the kinds of pressure
on the Iraqis to take responsibility and reconcile.
O'REILLY: But it worked. It worked. Come on.
OBAMA: Bill, what I've said is — I've already said it succeed beyond our
wildest dreams.
O'REILLY: Why can't you say, "I was right in the beginning, and I was wrong
about the surge"?
OBAMA: Because there's an underlying problem where what have we done. We
have reduced the violence.
O'REILLY: Yes.
OBAMA: But the Iraqis still haven't taken responsibility, and we still
don't have the kind of political reconciliation. We are still spending,
Bill, $10 to $12 billion a month.
O'REILLY: And I hope if you're president, you can get them to kick in and
pay us back.
OBAMA: They've got $79 billion.
O'REILLY: I'll go with you.
OBAMA: Let's go.
O'REILLY: We'll get some of that money back.
Micki
Mickey
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:18:22 -0700, Mickey wrote:
>
>> Micki Epstein wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
>>>> the surge and he would not do it.
>>> He did!
>> Sorry. He didn't. He said damned near anything except admit that he was
>> wrong.
>>
>> The Other Mickey
>
> To me saying that the surge worked beyond our wildest dreams is the same
> thing. To you it is not.
For the simple reason that it is not the same thing.
>
> O'REILLY: If we didn't, they would have used it as a staging ground. We've
> also inhibited Iran from controlling the southern part of Iraq by the
> surge, which you did not support. So why won't you say, "I was right in the
> beginning. I was wrong about that"?
>
> OBAMA: If you listen to what I've said, and I'll repeat it right here on
> this show, I think that there's no doubt that the violence is down. I
> believe that that is a testimony to the troops that were sent and General
> Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. I think that the surge has succeeded in
> ways that nobody anticipated,
Here he is wrong, again. People, like Petaeus, anticipated that it would
work in this way. Obama and his supporters were wrong about the surge
than and wrong now.
> by the way, including President Bush and the
> other supporters.
Distortion, if not outright lie.
> It has gone very well, partly because of the Anbar
> situation and the Sunni awakening, partly because of the Shia military.
> Look..
Still no admission of error.
.
>
> O'REILLY: But if it were up to you, there wouldn't have been a surge.
>
> OBAMA: Look...
>
> O'REILLY: No, no, no, no.
>
> OBAMA: No, no, no...
>
> O'REILLY: If it were up to you, there wouldn't have been a surge.
>
> OBAMA: No, no, no.
>
> O'REILLY: You and Joe Biden, no surge.
>
> OBAMA: Hold on a second, Bill. If you look at the debate that was taking
> place, we had gone through five years of mismanagement of this war that I
> thought was disastrous. And the president wanted to double down and
> continue on an open-ended policy that did not create the kinds of pressure
> on the Iraqis to take responsibility and reconcile.
This is sidestepping and arguing something else, Still no admission of
error.
>
> O'REILLY: But it worked. It worked. Come on.
>
> OBAMA: Bill, what I've said is — I've already said it succeed beyond our
> wildest dreams.
More evasion. No admission of error.
>
> O'REILLY: Why can't you say, "I was right in the beginning, and I was wrong
> about the surge"?
>
> OBAMA: Because there's an underlying problem where what have we done. We
> have reduced the violence.
Another sidestep. Still no admission of error.
>
> O'REILLY: Yes.
>
> OBAMA: But the Iraqis still haven't taken responsibility, and we still
> don't have the kind of political reconciliation. We are still spending,
> Bill, $10 to $12 billion a month.
Dancing sideways again. Still no admission of error.
>
> O'REILLY: And I hope if you're president, you can get them to kick in and
> pay us back.
>
> OBAMA: They've got $79 billion.
>
> O'REILLY: I'll go with you.
>
> OBAMA: Let's go.
>
> O'REILLY: We'll get some of that money back.
AND STILL NO ADMISSION OF ERROR!
The Other Mickey
Vandar
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:18:22 -0700, Mickey wrote:
>
>
>>Micki Epstein wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
>>>>the surge and he would not do it.
>>>
>>>He did!
>>
>>Sorry. He didn't. He said damned near anything except admit that he was
>>wrong.
>>
>>The Other Mickey
>
>
> To me saying that the surge worked beyond our wildest dreams is the same
> thing. To you it is not.
Me: "That car won't start."
<the car starts>
You: "Will you admit that you were wrong when you said the car won't start?"
Me: "The car started"
In that scenario, did I just admit that I was wrong or did I just ignore
what I was wrong about?
btw: The oversized font issue is due to character coding. I don't know
where the setting is in your newsreader, but you need to make sure it's
set to Western (ISO-8859-1), not Chinese Traditional (Big 5).
Micki Epstein
What I see as an admission of error you don't. So be it.
Micki
Micki Epstein
> Micki Epstein wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:18:22 -0700, Mickey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Micki Epstein wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
>>>>>the surge and he would not do it.
>>>>
>>>>He did!
>>>
>>>Sorry. He didn't. He said damned near anything except admit that he was
>>>wrong.
>>>
>>>The Other Mickey
>>
>>
>> To me saying that the surge worked beyond our wildest dreams is the same
>> thing. To you it is not.
>
> Me: "That car won't start."
> <the car starts>
> You: "Will you admit that you were wrong when you said the car won't start?"
> Me: "The car started"
>
> In that scenario, did I just admit that I was wrong or did I just ignore
> what I was wrong about?
>
I think it is an admission of error. You don't. As I said to Mickey - So
be it.
>
>
> btw: The oversized font issue is due to character coding. I don't know
> where the setting is in your newsreader, but you need to make sure it's
> set to Western (ISO-8859-1), not Chinese Traditional (Big 5).
Thanks. I'll try to find it. What is so strange is that everything looks
normal on my newsreader when I get it.
Micki
Vandar
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:55:31 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>
>
>>Micki Epstein wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:18:22 -0700, Mickey wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Micki Epstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:46 -0400, Vandar wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Okay. I watched it. He was asked repeatedly to admit he was wrong about
>>>>>>the surge and he would not do it.
>>>>>
>>>>>He did!
>>>>
>>>>Sorry. He didn't. He said damned near anything except admit that he was
>>>>wrong.
>>>>
>>>>The Other Mickey
>>>
>>>
>>>To me saying that the surge worked beyond our wildest dreams is the same
>>>thing. To you it is not.
>>
>>Me: "That car won't start."
>><the car starts>
>>You: "Will you admit that you were wrong when you said the car won't start?"
>>Me: "The car started"
>>
>>In that scenario, did I just admit that I was wrong or did I just ignore
>>what I was wrong about?
>>
>
> I think it is an admission of error. You don't. As I said to Mickey - So
> be it.
I refuse to so be it! We're both New Yorkers! Argue with me, dammit! :)
Judy Haffner
The Other Mickey wrote:
>I heard and saw the clip. McCain said
> there was no reason to fear a President
> Obama. Frankly, Obama scares the
> living whoop whoop out of me and it has
> absolutely nothing to do with his race
> (or religion). He is either too naive for
> the job or the most accomplished liar to
> run for the office during my lifetime. If
> he gets elected - saints preserve us - I
> hope it's the latter. (For an example of
> what I fear domestically and
> economically: if SS and Medicare have
> given us inescapable financial
> nightmare, his notion that health care is
> a right and should come under even
> more Federal control is positively
> bangungot. I have even less faith in him
> in foreign affairs.)
Another excellent post, Mickey! We may not always agree on American
Idol, but by golly, these are my thoughts as well! I think we ( the
"older generation") have much to fear if Obama becomes President next
month, as we have much at stake, and our country is in a fragile state
of affairs right now. I have no faith whatsoever in his leadership, and
if elected, I think this will be a GIGANTIC mistake by the American
People.
I don't know about your circle of friends, but we know many people that
are of both parties, and some that are Independent, and out of all of
them, they have said they don't want Obama for President, except for one
friend's husband, and he thinks he's great. Some of these friends are
not necessary crazy about McCain either, but feel he is the lesser of
two evils, and say they are casting their vote for him. We have friends
that are staunch Democrat, and for the first time, they refuse to vote
for one of their own party. Now...I sound like Bob Rudd, but it's true,
and I am curious if you have encountered this too?
Do you plan to watch the Hannity special on Fox tomorrow evening, when
he does a documentary about Obama? I believe it is on at 9:PM Eastern
time. I guess he is the only one in the news media that is willing to do
this. He plans to go back to Obama's earlier days, and is suppose to
show ties to radical professors, friends, spiritual advisors, etc.
Supposedly he has uncovered more of Obama's radical leaders and we are
to see things that no one in the media is willing to put out there, and
we are to find out more about Obama than ever before. Apparently Hannity
is very passionate about this program, and I know I'm sure looking
forward to seeing it!
Judy
Mickey
Don't need convincing. As for my circle of friends, Moni is one of three
people I'm fairly sure will vote for Obama. I assume a few others might.
The Other Mickey
Mickey
Anything short of "I was wrong" is evasion, the more weasel words the
more evasive. Anyone who cannot admit their error in three or less words
is not grown up enough to be President. (I was wrong, my bad, mea culpa,
etc.)
The Other Mickey
Mickey
I'd argue with you, but you're right.
The Other Mickey
Micki Epstein
Nope:)
Micki