OT - Jussi Bjoerling vs Fritz Wunderlich
Aaron
just for fun so if you don't find this fun, I'm cool with that. I
think I could learn a lot if you did, though...and maybe you'll
appreciate Bjoerling more too, who knows?
Round one: Nessun Dorma (keep in mind, Jussi's was recorded about 15
years before Fritz's, so the quality is lower)
Wunderlich:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EROMYx5m704
Bjoerling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUbA5y1hnFg
For me, round one goes to Bjoerling.
What an instrument...so effortless, and that high C goes on forever.
Also, not sure if it's an affectation or a mistake, but Wunderlich
squeaks about 2/3 of the way through. If that's just something he does
to emote passion, I'm fine with it. But I'm interested in your
assessment.
It seems to me that perhaps Wunderlich, while technically a lyric
tenor, does not have quite as high a range as some other lyric
tenors...at least in his comfort zone. Am I judging that correctly, or
do I just need to find the right counterexamples?
Moni, zob, others...please join in too, if you're interested!
-Aaron
P.S. I'll throw a filet to Bob, too: Adam *wishes* he had the chops of
either of these singers, especially the second one =D
PeterL
> Mickey, I hope you'll "take me on" in this thread, but it's really
> just for fun so if you don't find this fun, I'm cool with that. I
> think I could learn a lot if you did, though...and maybe you'll
> appreciate Bjoerling more too, who knows?
>
> Round one: Nessun Dorma (keep in mind, Jussi's was recorded about 15
> years before Fritz's, so the quality is lower)
>
> Wunderlich:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EROMYx5m704
Sung in German!? What blasphemy! I have to wash out my ears.
Aaron
*steps far away from Peter...VERY far away*
You poor, brave soul, you... =D
-Aaron
Aaron
<mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> > Mickey, I hope you'll "take me on" in this thread, but it's really
> > just for fun so if you don't find this fun, I'm cool with that. I
> > think I could learn a lot if you did, though...and maybe you'll
> > appreciate Bjoerling more too, who knows?
>
> recently compiled a list of the greatest tenors of all times.
This list? (and thanks for letting me know...interesting, and silly as
you said)
1 Placido DOMINGO (b1941)
2 Enrico CARUSO (1873-1921)
3 Luciano PAVAROTTI (1935-2007)
4 Fritz WUNDERLICH (1930-1966)
5 Jussi BJÖRLING (1911-1960)
6 Lauritz MELCHIOR (1890-1973)
7 Beniamino GIGLI (1890-1957)
8 Jon VICKERS (b1926)
9 Nicolai GEDDA (b1925)
10 Peter PEARS (1910-1986)
11 Tito SCHIPA (1888-1965)
12 Carlo BERGONZI (b1924)
13 Juan Diego FLÓREZ (b1973)
14 Peter SCHREIER (b1935)
15 Franco CORELLI (1921-1976)
16 John McCORMACK (1884-1945)
17 Anthony ROLFE JOHNSON (b1940)
18 Alfredo KRAUS (1927-1999)
19 Wolfgang WINDGASSEN (1914-1974)
20 Sergey LEMESHEV (1902-1977)
> Like most
> such lists, it is fairly silly. It has Wunderlich in 4th place,
> Bjoerling in 5th, and Melchior in 6th.
Ahh, but when you look at the top 3, you understand where they got
their ridiculousness. First, we must grant Caruso a top spot even
though he sang so long ago that no decent recordings exist that can be
used for credible comparison (within reason).
And then you have to give Domingo and Pavarotti top spots or nearly
everyone alive today who cares about opera will hate you. You know how
I feel about Pav, so you know I'm not one of these, and I'm sure you
aren't either, but you know they exist as the vast majority, sadly.
Although, to their credit, they put Domingo #1 instead of Pav. Good on
them! And, a lesson for me, I didn't realize Pav was THAT old! Perhaps
I've been too hard on him. The vast majority of his singing, that I
have heard, was after he was 60! We had some old records, and he was
amazing then, but I was assuming his voice went to pot a LOT sooner
than it actually did.
So I'll play nice with his memory from now on.
But with nearly obvious bias like what I detailed above, surely other
bias also enters. Like perhaps "well, Wunderlich died so YOUNG! Let's
bump him up above Bjoerling..."
And that's not saying he isn't superior, just that he might have been
bumped, as potentially were others for reasons I wouldn't even know.
> Okay, I'll play along for a while
> in these comparisons, but too prove my contention that such head to head
> comparisons can get pretty silly, here's a couple of tenors who didn't
> even make the top 20.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXmNxLy4C3o&feature=PlayList&p=83F5318...
Well now slow down there, that was Melchior. You pointed out yourself
that he's #6.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6F6yuALm-c
I wasn't in love with that, but I haven't heard all of the top 20 so
I'll take your word that he belongs there.
> And here's number 15 on the list. I guess he would have done better if
> he hadn't been such an ugly spud.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXIElPNn-l4&feature=related
Nice. I'm not sure I follow you about the "ugly spud", since I think
he's rather good looking, as far as dudes go. And if you were joking,
well, why mention his looks?
All of them seem to struggle with the pseudo-trills (like on "Pira"),
but I know those are very difficult, especially when you sing the aria
at its intended tempo.
Kraus nails them, though, and he's down at 18!
I know, I know, pleasant tone and color are also desirable...
> As they say, comparison are (sometimes) odious.
>
> > Round one: Nessun Dorma (keep in mind, Jussi's was recorded about 15
> > years before Fritz's, so the quality is lower)
>
> That's not true. The Bjoerling recording is from 1959, one year after
> the Wunderlich recording.
Fair enough. I listened to the recording quality and thought it old,
given that it was digitally remastered. My bad.
> > Wunderlich:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EROMYx5m704
>
> > Bjoerling:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUbA5y1hnFg
>
> > For me, round one goes to Bjoerling.
>
> There are several things which make this sort of comparison odious.
Can you type and pinch your nose at the same time?
> First, Bjoerling was the more Italianate voice. Second, Bjoerling was 48
> when he recorded Nessun Dorma, at what should have been the height of
> his powers. Wunderlich is 28 at the time of this recording and the voice
> was much still much too light for this material, though if he lived into
> his 40s it would not have been. (Wunderlich, who was the first real
> superstar German tenor post WWII, was cajoled into singing damned near
> anything he could hit. Though a superb musician, there is no substitute
> for singing a role into the voice. As a result, his legacy has a few
> clunkers in it, but considering his early demise, even those are worth
> hearing.) I would also point out this particular Bjoerling Nessun Dorma
> is, in my less than humble opinion, the best single aria in his
> discography and one of my favorites.
Fair enough. I wasn't putting enough care into this comparison
business, and I will attempt to remedy that for round three.
On the subject of their voices, I think I partly prefer Jussi because
of his accent that seeps through. It's sweeter than Wunderlich's, to
my ear. I know that's entirely my opinion.
I'll talk more about their voices after your links to Il Mio Tesoro.
> I probably first heard it before you were born.
Foul! Or at least shenanigans! That was unnecessary. I meant no
offense by saying "maybe you'll appreciate Bjoerling more"...I just
wanted to suggest that we both might have fun with this for a bit.
> > What an instrument...so effortless, and that high C goes on forever.
>
> The C is not even what is significant. What makes this performance
> special is how Bjoerling spins the line from 2:30-45.
They both are significant, but you are right, that was a bit of magic.
Excellent line, though Wunderlich has more of those moments even than
Bjoerling. More again below.
> > Also, not sure if it's an affectation or a mistake, but Wunderlich
> > squeaks about 2/3 of the way through. If that's just something he does
> > to emote passion, I'm fine with it. But I'm interested in your
> > assessment.
>
> Affectation. At the time (and into the at least the 70s) the Germans
> expected what is for me an excessive amount of "schrei" in their Italian
> opera.
Roger. Fritz and I are cool, then.
> > It seems to me that perhaps Wunderlich, while technically a lyric
> > tenor, does not have quite as high a range as some other lyric
> > tenors...at least in his comfort zone. Am I judging that correctly, or
> > do I just need to find the right counterexamples?
>
> The better question is how much weight can a lyric carry healthily into
> the upper register. Most operatic voices grow and improve well into
> their 30s and 40s, generally gaining color and heft. New literature
> becomes possible and other literature less plausible if not impossible.
Understood. I'll pay more attention to the ages next time. Fritz was
born 19 years later, so I need to try and find recordings with that
sort of separation.
Which, by accident, I thought I had found the first time.
> Here's Fritz a bit more vocally mature (31) than in the Nessun Dorma you
> offered. Remember, he never lives to see his 36th birthday. What a
> tragedy, but what promise. (Stick around for the second verse after the
> Baron Ochs business.)
It is a tragedy, one I can feel even though it is half a century gone.
I can't imagine what it was like for you and your contemporaries.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GbTmkn1Y28
Quite beautiful, his line is impeccable, and his amount of breath is
insane. He must have had 3 lungs. I noticed that in the Magic Flute
aria from the other day, too.
I also like his tone slightly better than Jussi's, although I already
said as far as accents, I prefer Jussi...
Fritz does have some trouble with the runs at 1:17 (misses a note on
the way up) and 3:07 (a couple of missed notes)...but it is wonderful
to hear him.
> Though you'll have to have to adjust your ears to compensate for
> differences in recording quality, here is a more fair comparison, the
> two singers at more similar ages.
>
> Bjoerling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYPRYWt5gQU&feature=PlayList&p=D1C472C...
>
> Wunderlich http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GbTmkn1Y28
>
> This time, slam dunk for Fritz, just as the Nessun Dorma was for Jussi.
Almost, with the exception of the runs I noted above. Bjoerling, for
his part, nails them, every single note clear and precise. I'd give
the times but that's unnecessary because I'm sure you know the piece
backwards and forwards and can find them yourself.
However, with Bjoerling you can feel him running out of breath and
rushing the runs just a tiny bit. Credit for hitting the notes when
running out of breath, but losing points for breath control.
I agree, this one goes to Fritz by a touch-and-a-half.
Round three when I get a chance to do it right =D
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
wrote:
Hey, you were supposed to wait for me!
Here is La Donna e Mobile. Based on where and with whom Jussi
performed it, I think the ages are comparable, but I couldn't pin down
the years. If I could have found Jussi's 1946 MET performance, that
would have been ideal
Fritz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAdbrTZ7Wlk
Jussi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrPYY8SQBgk&feature=related
I'll let you have at it with the commentary, but again Fritz has
trouble with the final run... Both push sharp when ending the final
note, a common error in this aria, I've noticed.
Jussi's voice is just a bit more plaintive, which works for me. Not
sure if this is more than a draw though.
For the next, "Enfermant les yeux". Fritz is a studio recording, so
that has to be taken into account...Ages are not a good match as
Jussi's is in 1951 but it was what I could find. And I thought this
solo would play to both their strengths. Which it seems to!
Jussi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scQetn9MICc
Start at 0:46 on Jussi's to compare these for the same music. 2:35 for
Jussi is magical...and again at the end, around 3:00.
Different takes, maybe due to Jussi's experience at this point. His is
more tender.
I'd been looking for "Salut, demeure", by Fritz, but couldn't find it.
It is one of my favorites, especially by Jussi, but this is another.
I like Jussi's better in this case, but it owes some to experience.
> The Other Mickey
OK, now on to yours! Didn't give them a listen yet
Aaron
wrote:
> >> Like most
> >> such lists, it is fairly silly. It has Wunderlich in 4th place,
> >> Bjoerling in 5th, and Melchior in 6th.
>
> > Ahh, but when you look at the top 3, you understand where they got
> > their ridiculousness. First, we must grant Caruso a top spot even
> > though he sang so long ago that no decent recordings exist that can be
> > used for credible comparison (within reason).
>
> them. (It's a skill, like any other.) In any event, Caruso might argue
> that Gershon Sirota (a contemporary of his) was the better tenor.
I've heard the name. As to that skill, it must take quite a bit of
work to master it. With the pops and scratches, the tinny recording
quality, the poor volume integrity, etc. Very hard indeed, I would
think, to compare fairly with modern recordings.
> Sorry booboo. Here's what I intended.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGM9xj3sfvI&feature=related
Ahh. Wow. The comments, well most of them, say enough. A Wagnerian
tenor, with that magnificent B (it was down a half step from the
original)... He's great! Did they put any Wagnerian tenors on the
list? Perhaps that was how he got excluded...not that it makes any
sense. I agree, he should be on that list, above Kraus at a minimum.
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6F6yuALm-c
>
> > I wasn't in love with that, but I haven't heard all of the top 20 so
> > I'll take your word that he belongs there.
>
> >> And here's number 15 on the list. I guess he would have done better if
> >> he hadn't been such an ugly spud.
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXIElPNn-l4&feature=related
>
> > Nice. I'm not sure I follow you about the "ugly spud", since I think
> > he's rather good looking, as far as dudes go. And if you were joking,
> > well, why mention his looks?
>
> Sarcasm. Corelli had Greek god like beauty. Tall, athletic build (his
> nickname was "the legs of gold") and handsome.
So what's your real theory? Just that they're idiots over at BBC
music? I wouldn't disagree...
> > All of them seem to struggle with the pseudo-trills (like on "Pira"),
>
> The ornament is a mordent.
A-whatever...I've not seen the sheet music.
> > but I know those are very difficult, especially when you sing the aria
> > at its intended tempo.
>
> > Kraus nails them, though, and he's down at 18!
>
> But lacked the heroic tone the part really requires. Kraus is on the
> list for his longevity as much as anything.
I suppose...
-Aaron
Aaron
> breath capacity.
Hah. It might at that! From what I know about playing the French horn,
it just might at that.
Wow, his voice would have been wasted blowing all those raspberries on
stage...
> >> Fritz does have some trouble with the runs at 1:17 (misses a note on
> >> the way up) and 3:07 (a couple of missed notes)...but it is wonderful
> >> to hear him.
>
> On the other hand, Jussi barely comes close on the fioratura. There is
> at least one studio recording where Fritz nails all of them, but I
> thought it would be fairer to compare live performances.
Indeed. Jussi would probably benefit also from the studio version.
> >>> Though you'll have to have to adjust your ears to compensate for
> >>> differences in recording quality, here is a more fair comparison, the
> >>> two singers at more similar ages.
>
> >>> Bjoerling
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYPRYWt5gQU&feature=PlayList&p=D1C472C...
>
> >>> Wunderlichhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GbTmkn1Y28
>
> >>> This time, slam dunk for Fritz, just as the Nessun Dorma was for Jussi.
>
> >> Almost, with the exception of the runs I noted above. Bjoerling, for
> >> his part, nails them, every single note clear and precise.
>
> Not really. The fioratura is imprecise and pitches not all that distinct (
I'm discussing the runs. If you are as well, I don't know how you can
say that. They sound distinct to me, and he at least hits all the
notes, even if you're going to argue precision.
If you mean something else by "fioratura" I'm afraid I'm going to need
to know what time in the song you mean.
I couldn't even find that damn word in any musical dictionary. Had a
heck of a time figuring out what it means.
> >> I'd give
> >> the times but that's unnecessary because I'm sure you know the piece
> >> backwards and forwards and can find them yourself.
>
> >> However, with Bjoerling you can feel him running out of breath and
> >> rushing the runs just a tiny bit. Credit for hitting the notes when
> >> running out of breath, but losing points for breath control.
>
> >> I agree, this one goes to Fritz by a touch-and-a-half.
>
> You want to give him a few more points? You really should after you hear
> this later recording, again a live performance It also gives a strong
> indication of how the voice was maturing.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxx0Vuwc0DA
Actually, I like his less mature voice more...he's getting to heavy
and dark for my tastes in this one...
It's very good, don't get me wrong. But the tone is going the wrong
way for me...
> Fritz was also a bit more versatile than Jussi, as the links below reveals.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nONboKmXg20&feature=related
I'll take your Wein, wein and raise you a Till Havs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t944plCTZ4
Or if by "versatile" you meant "listen to how tender he can be", well
listen to Jussi singing "Salut, demeure"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJL1LqX9Uao
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNtA3xetpjg&feature=related
Ok I can't come up with anything as exciting as Granada (which I never
really liked all that much), but Till Havs is something like that...
> Sorry I don't have a recording, but as a "guest" in a performance of
> Fledermaus, Fritz once sang "I Found My Thrill on Blueberry Hill," in
> the style of Louis Armstrong, which included playing the second chorus
> on the trumpet. In compensation for that woeful omission, I offer
> Bastianini and Simionato doing "Anything You Can Do" and Birgit Nilsson
> singing "I Could Have Danced All Night."
Ok, how about O Holy Night, in German, by Jussi?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufnjnwzz82k
;D
See, you are having fun, aren't you?
Ever heard Jussi's son Rolf?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axduQ5DJtD0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJeXNwdgJO0
Awesome! Love the accents!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCLIPCxsgI4
...
> Now for a three way.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuOKfAZGAQ&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk8aLJmXw2U&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXqc3N2bk44&feature=related
Well that's hardly fair! Wunderlich for sure! Even if he pronounces
his Italian funnily ("Caro mio Bane")
Pav is great up high, but his lower register is not great IMO, and
that shows in this song.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
tyrone1
<4cfdfa96-3c3b-4050...@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
PeterL <po....@gmail.com> wrote:
i was shocked aand amazed the first time i heard it in
german-Richard Tauber-, but it still sounded great!
As to Bjoerling, i am one of the thousands whos eureka opera/tenor
moment as a young lad was hearing Bjoerling/Merrill pearl fishers
duet.
Hes stayed my favorite ever since.
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bjoerling and Victoria de los Angeles were a great team, especially in
their classic "La Boheme" with Beecham.
As far as great tenors go, I would include Peter Schrier who was more
active in oratorio singing than opera.
Aaron
Stick around for this thread then, my friend. Mickey may change both our
minds... =D
-Aaron
Aaron
> Aaron wrote:
>> On Apr 27, 2:23 pm, Mickey <mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hey, you were supposed to wait for me!
>>
>> Here is La Donna e Mobile. Based on where and with whom Jussi
>> performed it, I think the ages are comparable, but I couldn't pin down
>> the years. If I could have found Jussi's 1946 MET performance, that
>> would have been ideal
>>
>> Fritz:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAdbrTZ7Wlk
>>
>> Jussi:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrPYY8SQBgk&feature=related
>>
>> I'll let you have at it with the commentary, but again Fritz has
>> trouble with the final run... Both push sharp when ending the final
>> note, a common error in this aria, I've noticed.
>>
>> Jussi's voice is just a bit more plaintive, which works for me. Not
>> sure if this is more than a draw though.
>
> stiff penis in tights? The Duke is a cretin.
>
> Frankly, this next link has them both beaten.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhVgUFiCJnQ&feature=related
Ahh, Di Stefano. Another favorite. He took it a little slow, though,
didn't he? And the jumps up by 4ths (like in MO-bile) sound barked.
But then, ahhh, the powerful high note scaled seamlessly back to sotto
voce (or vice versa, or both as in E lucevan le Stelle), that is
something Di Stefano does that is to die for.
If you know of others who can and have done that on high notes, please
let me know...I always love hearing that technique.
>> For the next, "Enfermant les yeux". Fritz is a studio recording, so
>> that has to be taken into account...Ages are not a good match as
>> Jussi's is in 1951 but it was what I could find. And I thought this
>> solo would play to both their strengths. Which it seems to!
>>
>> Fritz:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZspT2zM-w0&feature=PlayList&p=324778CA4512AAA3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7
>>
>>
>> Jussi:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scQetn9MICc
>>
>> Start at 0:46 on Jussi's to compare these for the same music. 2:35 for
>> Jussi is magical...and again at the end, around 3:00.
>>
>> Different takes, maybe due to Jussi's experience at this point. His is
>> more tender.
>
> Sorry, I don't hear it. The vocalism is inferior and the intonation
> spotty in some places, but still good, particularly considering it's a
> live broadcast.
Not even the magic moments?
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
> limitations of the recording. Part of the skill is knowing voices well
> enough in general to reconstruct from implication what is not explicitly
> present or clear. Many of the people who compile such lists do not
> understand the voice well enough to make the judgments they make. They
> put Caruso on the list because everyone says Caruso was a great tenor,
> but they'll leave out handfuls of other tenors whose names don't have
> the same CULTURAL resonance but who were nearly as good. In other words,
> the entire list would be suspect if Caruso was omitted.
I figured as much about including Caruso. Shame about excluding some of
the others, though I suppose those who know their tenors would see the
errors of the list in the first place. And the rest wouldn't care.
> As for listening through the technology, to a lesser degree, we do it
> all the time. Remember the early portable radios. They probably produced
> minimum signal below 400 hz, yet we still heard the lower pitches by
> reconstructing the fundamentals from the overtones. . I doubt your
> telephone receiver can accurately reproduce my voice, but you'd
> understand me anyway, because your brain would reconstruct the missing
> parts from what it already knows about voices in general. Listening to
> singing voices is just an adjunct skill which come from listening to a
> lot of recording (and live voices) from various times in the evolution
> of the recording art.
I see. I'm sure I can do it to a lesser degree, but not to the degree
needed to compare Caruso to Wunderlich. In fact, I did try to compare
them, and thought Caruso was pretty poor...
>>>> All of them seem to struggle with the pseudo-trills (like on "Pira"),
>>> The ornament is a mordent.
>>
>> A-whatever...I've not seen the sheet music.
>>
>>>> but I know those are very difficult, especially when you sing the aria
>>>> at its intended tempo.
>>>> Kraus nails them, though, and he's down at 18!
>>> But lacked the heroic tone the part really requires. Kraus is on the
>>> list for his longevity as much as anything.
>>
>> I suppose...
>
> And he was seldom less than tasteful and musical, though there is one
> recording of Rigoletto with Scotto and Bastianini which may be the
> height of bad taste and glorious singing. Also, Kraus was never less
> than elegant. I would not be surprised if there was a sharp crease even
> in his tights.
LOL and he always tucked his undershirts into his briefs?
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
> (Notice I don't blame you for not knowing). Fioratura, also fioritura,
> means flowery stuff, embellished lines, coloratura. Runs are something
> you get from eating bad clams.
Well, Mickey, I don't know what to say but that you have a ridiculous
standard there... I looked in 4 different music dictionaries and your
damn term didn't show up. Still, I knew it meant "flowery stuff" from my
knowledge of Italian. I just wasn't aware it was used in place of "runs".
> Okay, we've gotten to that fork in the road where tastes diverge, and it
> is kind of interesting that these discussions almost always end in the
> same place. When comparing two generally well respected performers fans
> will pick one and practitioners will tend to pick the other in
> overwhelming numbers. Part of it is knowing the implication of the
> imperfections. No performance is perfect, but not all imperfections are
> created equal.
You seem to forgive vocal blunders over technique inferiorities, if I
may simplify. For me, the piece is more enjoyable without the vocal
blunders.
I do not think you are accurate in giving the impression that yours is
the preference of technical accuracy.
> JohnGavin elsewhere expresses his admiration of the Beecham, De Los
> Angeles, Bjoerling "La Boheme," yet, when you talk to opera performers,
> they are more likely to cite the Serafin, Tebaldi, Bergonzi "La Boheme."
> Both are great recordings, I own both, but if forced to keep only one,
> I'd toss Beecham, no contest.
Not familiar.
> Part of the reason for this parting of the ways is because practitioners
> often judge performers by standards or icons not well know to the
> general public, even that part of the public which is interested in the
> art.
I can understand that...but you must understand at the same time that
allowances must be made for those of us without such experience with
those icons. It doesn't invalidate our preferences, though.
> To give you a window into that world view here are two offerings
> from possibly the greatest soprano of the 20th century. She is largely
> unknown today except among the hard core, yet her performances so shaped
> the genre, that echoes of her performances haunt every opera house in
> the world. If this singing doesn't touch you, I don't know what could.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6gr-GVSLOw
That was beautiful, to be sure.
Truly magnificent. I'm a little too peeved to say more.
> She was dead within year of these recordings.
>
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
fmomoon
"Aaron" <aaro...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:73ac914f-8f9e-4812...@y10g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
I'm not Mickey, however.
I don't like "Nessun Dorma" in German. It sounds way too punchy on the
quarter notes, nowhere near legato enough. In Italian, it is so much more
musical. I also don't like the second to last note. Pretty pinched, but
maybe it was the late 50s recording.
Oh my, by the end of the 1st phrase, Bjoerling had me. That is the way I
want a tenor to sound.
--
Moni
fmomoon
"Mickey" <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote in message
news:lHkJl.19806$as4....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Aaron wrote:
>> Mickey, I hope you'll "take me on" in this thread, but it's really
>> just for fun so if you don't find this fun, I'm cool with that. I
>> think I could learn a lot if you did, though...and maybe you'll
>> appreciate Bjoerling more too, who knows?
>
> pretty silly, here's a couple of tenors who didn't even make the top 20.
>
That's a heavy voice, Mickey, and placed really far back. Not my favorite
sound.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6F6yuALm-c
Ah, the old steel jaw singer! :) Pretty much the bravado I like in a tenor,
but not my favorite.
>
> And here's number 15 on the list. I guess he would have done better if he
> hadn't been such an ugly spud.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXIElPNn-l4&feature=related
Nope. Didn't get anything....
>> For me, round one goes to Bjoerling.
Yup.
>
> There are several things which make this sort of comparison odious. First,
> Bjoerling was the more Italianate voice. Second, Bjoerling was 48 when he
> recorded Nessun Dorma, at what should have been the height of his powers.
> Wunderlich is 28 at the time of this recording and the voice was much
> still much too light for this material, though if he lived into his 40s it
> would not have been. (Wunderlich, who was the first real superstar German
> tenor post WWII, was cajoled into singing damned near anything he could
> hit. Though a superb musician, there is no substitute for singing a role
> into the voice. As a result, his legacy has a few clunkers in it, but
> considering his early demise, even those are worth hearing.) I would also
> point out this particular Bjoerling Nessun Dorma is, in my less than
> humble opinion, the best single aria in his discography and one of my
> favorites. I probably first heard it before you were born.
Yes, I agree about Bjoerling. Hold on, Mickey, I suspect Aaron may have
some more difficult choices coming up... :)
>
>>
>> What an instrument...so effortless, and that high C goes on forever.
>
> The C is not even what is significant. What makes this performance special
> is how Bjoerling spins the line from 2:30-45.
>
>> Also, not sure if it's an affectation or a mistake, but Wunderlich
>> squeaks about 2/3 of the way through. If that's just something he does
>> to emote passion, I'm fine with it. But I'm interested in your
>> assessment.
>
> Affectation. At the time (and into the at least the 70s) the Germans
> expected what is for me an excessive amount of "schrei" in their Italian
> opera.
>
>> It seems to me that perhaps Wunderlich, while technically a lyric
>> tenor, does not have quite as high a range as some other lyric
>> tenors...at least in his comfort zone. Am I judging that correctly, or
>> do I just need to find the right counterexamples?
>
> The better question is how much weight can a lyric carry healthily into
> the upper register. Most operatic voices grow and improve well into their
> 30s and 40s, generally gaining color and heft. New literature becomes
> possible and other literature less plausible if not impossible.
>
> Here's Fritz a bit more vocally mature (31) than in the Nessun Dorma you
> offered. Remember, he never lives to see his 36th birthday. What a
> tragedy, but what promise. (Stick around for the second verse after the
> Baron Ochs business.)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GbTmkn1Y28
This is much more attractive, certainly less percussive.
>
> Though you'll have to have to adjust your ears to compensate for
> differences in recording quality, here is a more fair comparison, the two
> singers at more similar ages.
>
> Bjoerling
Hmmm...not as lovely, especially with Mozart.
>
> Wunderlich
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GbTmkn1Y28
>
> This time, slam dunk for Fritz, just as the Nessun Dorma was for Jussi.
Agreed. Not too heavy this time...
--
Moni
>
> The Other Mickey
>
>
fmomoon
Lucevan Le Stelle" (haven't all first class tenors done this one?) for a
comparison. What do you think? Of course, keep in mind the time period of
the recording...
"Aaron" <aaron...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:630cf0b6-b9dd-4a22...@j18g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
1 Placido DOMINGO (b1941)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxdiJ74AL5Y
By the way, I was in Italy when this was filmed. I sort of followed them
wherever they went. :)
2 Enrico CARUSO (1873-1921)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJfyBMsL2zQ
3 Luciano PAVAROTTI (1935-2007)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mX7ugJ5NM8
4 Fritz WUNDERLICH (1930-1966)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdpqRK-Qfk
5 Jussi BJ�RLING (1911-1960)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcAW8wJvc8
6 Lauritz MELCHIOR (1890-1973)
Okay, this one doesn't work. He did very little recording in Italian.
7 Beniamino GIGLI (1890-1957)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeAWVm_8gtE
8 Jon VICKERS (b1926)
Can't find him singing this, either.
9 Nicolai GEDDA (b1925)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lYclKZq4Nc
10 Peter PEARS (1910-1986)
No, this wasn't his thing...
11 Tito SCHIPA (1888-1965)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-iZ4Wqo6kI
Again, old recording....
12 Carlo BERGONZI (b1924)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2A-1OAOEAk
Go 3:00 before you hear it. Big guy...
13 Juan Diego FL�REZ (b1973)
Lovely voice, but he doesn't seem to have done this one.
14 Peter SCHREIER (b1935)
This one, either.
15 Franco CORELLI (1921-1976)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abip8QaHKb8
16 John McCORMACK (1884-1945)
No, he wouldn't have done this. :)
17 Anthony ROLFE JOHNSON (b1940)
18 Alfredo KRAUS (1927-1999)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sud32oroxTY
Go about 2:25 in
19 Wolfgang WINDGASSEN (1914-1974)
Not this one.
20 Sergey LEMESHEV (1902-1977)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSRxl88FzOI
This one was sort of laughable. Totally the wrong timbre!
This was fun!
--
Moni
mrbonner
but I wanted to say thank you to those who participated, as I've
enjoyed the education I've received. One doesn't often (and rarely
should) go to usenet to learn something, but every now and then it can
happen.
Aaron
> "Aaron" <aaron...@msn.com> wrote in message
Moni, thanks for participating! I'll listen to your links in a bit.
Here is a treat for you, if you haven't heard this version. It's the
"Pearl Fisher's duet" with Jussi Bjoerling and Robert Merrill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdb94HbyRko
Now, back to your comments above, Mickey rightly pointed out that I
was comparing a mature Jussi (45ish), with a young, just out from
behind the french horn, Fritz Wunderlich.
In fact, as he added and I agree, that version of Nessun Dorma by
Jussi might possibly be the best one extant.
Now that I think on it, Mickey, since Verdi and Puccini are my
favorite opera composers (though not by wide margins...mozart and
others come close), this may go far to explaining why I prefer Jussi
to Fritz.
But anyway, Moni, for comparison, here is something magical (pun or
no) by Fritz Wunderlich, which Mickey posted before. Tamino's aria,
from The Magic Flute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnruLf_haY
-Aaron
Aaron
> Aaron, I think the best thing to do is compare like with like. I chose "E
> Lucevan Le Stelle" (haven't all first class tenors done this one?) for a
> comparison. What do you think? Of course, keep in mind the time period of
The best E Lucevan le Stelle (great choice! Such a beautiful aria!)
I've ever heard is Giuseppe Di Stefano, who didn't even make the top
20 (another travesty). One of my prized opera CD sets is the Tosca
with Callas and Di Stefano, though this version isn't from that set.
Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOCZKWeX9ag
Listen to how he handles the first rise to the high range..."O dolci
baccia..." And the high A, where he backs off so far, at 1:47...
This is my favorite of all time =D
-Aaron
> news:630cf0b6-b9dd-4a22...@j18g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> 1 Placido DOMINGO (b1941)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxdiJ74AL5Y
> By the way, I was in Italy when this was filmed. I sort of followed them
> wherever they went. :)
> 2 Enrico CARUSO (1873-1921)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJfyBMsL2zQ
> 3 Luciano PAVAROTTI (1935-2007)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mX7ugJ5NM8
> 4 Fritz WUNDERLICH (1930-1966)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdpqRK-Qfk
> 5 Jussi BJÖRLING (1911-1960)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcAW8wJvc8
> 6 Lauritz MELCHIOR (1890-1973)
> Okay, this one doesn't work. He did very little recording in Italian.
> 7 Beniamino GIGLI (1890-1957)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeAWVm_8gtE
> 8 Jon VICKERS (b1926)
> Can't find him singing this, either.
> 9 Nicolai GEDDA (b1925)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lYclKZq4Nc
> 10 Peter PEARS (1910-1986)
> No, this wasn't his thing...
> 11 Tito SCHIPA (1888-1965)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-iZ4Wqo6kI
> Again, old recording....
> 12 Carlo BERGONZI (b1924)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2A-1OAOEAk
> Go 3:00 before you hear it. Big guy...
> 13 Juan Diego FLÓREZ (b1973)
> Lovely voice, but he doesn't seem to have done this one.
> 14 Peter SCHREIER (b1935)
> This one, either.
> 15 Franco CORELLI (1921-1976)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abip8QaHKb8
> 16 John McCORMACK (1884-1945)
> No, he wouldn't have done this. :)
> 17 Anthony ROLFE JOHNSON (b1940)
> not this one.
> 18 Alfredo KRAUS (1927-1999)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sud32oroxTY
> Go about 2:25 in
> 19 Wolfgang WINDGASSEN (1914-1974)
> Not this one.
> 20 Sergey LEMESHEV (1902-1977)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSRxl88FzOI
Aaron
wrote:
> fmomoon wrote:
> > Aaron, I think the best thing to do is compare like with like. I chose
> > "E Lucevan Le Stelle" (haven't all first class tenors done this one?)
> > for a comparison. What do you think? Of course, keep in mind the time
> > period of the recording...
>
> category. From heaviest to lightest, there is virtually no common
> literature. There is a reason why there are holes in your list and why
> some of these otherwise great singer have no good performances of this
> piece. You can't compare John Vicker to Tito Schipa, yet both are
> estimable singers. If this discussion Aaron and I have had proves
> anything, it's that meaningful comparison even of two fairly similar
> voices is difficult, if not impossible. For example, just choosing a
> verismo aria really excludes half the Italian tenors (Schipa certainly
> wasn't a Cavaradossi) and although any number of Germanic tenors have
> sung the role, it really suits few of them. Jussi Bjoerling was never
> going to be a Peter Grimes, and, even if he did sing "Nessun Dorma"
> about as well as anyone ever has, he doesn't come close to cracking most
> top ten list of Calafs.
>
> For good measure, here's a few great tenors who typically fails to make
> such lists.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD-yzw7ExY4&feature=PlayList&p=D67796E...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_k4seQXPqA&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tDbc_rr43E
>
> And finally the tenor Caruso thought was the greatest in the world...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-iXVfMZ-M
>
> The Other Mickey
Caruso just might have known what he was talking about =D
Sirota's not being on that list was another travesty, for certain.
-Aaron
Aaron
I'm sure you learned more from Mickey than from me, but you're
welcome! I'll take credit at least for initiating this fun "contest"
and perhaps providing some enjoyable links.
Yes, before you ask, I did bring kielbasa. That's what I meant by
"links".
-Aaron
Aaron
<mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote:
> voices (which for historical reasons include the cantors, Peerce,
> Tucker, Merrill, et al.) for the Italian literature and the Germanic
> voices for the Germanic literature. I generally prefer Bjoerling's
> singing of Northern European music to his singing of Verdi and Puccini,
> where I really like more garlic and anchovies. (I don't lutefisk works
> on pizza.)
I can jive with that.
> Here's another virtually forgotten tenor, one whom I knew slightly
> toward the end of his life. He is probably most famous for replacing
> Martinelli at the Met midway through a radio broadcast performance. (He
> was just leaving his flat to take his kids to the zoo for the afternoon
> when the phone rang...) Here he is singing Questa o quella.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIZVxLpq3M&feature=related
Doesn't do too much for me, that one.
> As I've said, Bjoerling may have recorded the best "Nessun Dorma" but
> probably the best all time Calaf was probably Corelli. His version is
> hardly chopped liver, either.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1TxYjDREyM&feature=related
He's good, excellent power. I didn't like his imprecise diction near
the beginning, at the first "Non, non" leading up to the first high A
(right?). During that whole passage, his diction is muddy.
But it was wonderful, though not nearly as good as Bjoerling's, all of
which you said.
> I know we've mentioned Vickers, but how do you compare a singer with as
> much versatility (not to mention testosterone in his voice) to anyone
> else? (BTW, the final note in Celeste Aida is performed as Verdi specifies.)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGCyCQ4760&feature=related
Ahh, love Handel's Messiah. What breath control he has on the
"exalteds". The fioraturae on that word (happens several times) are
quite long, and I'm not sure I've heard one done on just one breath
before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nsi3kGjxnE&feature=related
Not sure what you meant about the last note. You mean the crescendo?
That was good, and unusual IME.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
<mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> > On Apr 27, 11:29 pm, "fmomoon" <fmom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Aaron, I think the best thing to do is compare like with like. I chose "E
> >> Lucevan Le Stelle" (haven't all first class tenors done this one?) for a
> >> comparison. What do you think? Of course, keep in mind the time period of
> >> the recording..."Aaron" <aarons12...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > The best E Lucevan le Stelle (great choice! Such a beautiful aria!)
> > I've ever heard is Giuseppe Di Stefano, who didn't even make the top
> > 20 (another travesty). One of my prized opera CD sets is the Tosca
> > with Callas and Di Stefano, though this version isn't from that set.
>
> the Vienna Phil. with Price, Di Stefano, and Taddei. This version has
> been alternately praised and poopooed over the years, but it captured
> Price at her best with a conductor willing to open the tempi enough for
> her performance to bloom. (The same reason I prefer Serafin's reading of
> La Boheme to Beecham's and Toscanini's) Further, I've never been a huge
> fan of Gobbi's barking around the margins of the score or, as conductor
> Richard Woitach once described it, "a compelling, sussurant monolog
> often having much more to do with Mr. Gobbi than Mr. Puccini." Taddei,
> on the other hand, was the first Scarpia I heard who actually tried to
> sing what Puccini had written. (This is also the first role in which
> enjoyed the singing of Ruggiero Raimondi, I suspect because he did not,
> like many Scarpia's, let his ego and testicles get in the way of showing
> proper respect for what Puccini wrote.) Sadly, this recording finds Di
> Stefano well past his best years and a bit thread bare. The real star is
> the Red Baron, whose sense of the large arc makes this performance grind
> inevitably from Angelotti's entrance to Tosca's final exit.
>
> The Other Mickey
I'll look in to this. I'm not sure what La Boheme I have...I never
took much interest in that opera, and I can't find it on my shelves
right now (Grr).
-Aaron
fmomoon
> fmomoon wrote:
>> Aaron, I think the best thing to do is compare like with like. I chose
>> "E Lucevan Le Stelle" (haven't all first class tenors done this one?) for
>> a comparison. What do you think? Of course, keep in mind the time
>> period of the recording...
>
> category. From heaviest to lightest, there is virtually no common
> literature. There is a reason why there are holes in your list and why
> some of these otherwise great singer have no good performances of this
> piece. You can't compare John Vicker to Tito Schipa, yet both are
> estimable singers. If this discussion Aaron and I have had proves
> anything, it's that meaningful comparison even of two fairly similar
> voices is difficult, if not impossible. For example, just choosing a
> verismo aria really excludes half the Italian tenors (Schipa certainly
> wasn't a Cavaradossi) and although any number of Germanic tenors have sung
> the role, it really suits few of them. Jussi Bjoerling was never going to
> be a Peter Grimes, and, even if he did sing "Nessun Dorma" about as well
> as anyone ever has, he doesn't come close to cracking most top ten list of
> Calafs.
going to be lovely in an Irish song, but not so much for an Italian aria. :)
>
> For good measure, here's a few great tenors who typically fails to make
> such lists.
>
Gorgeous! One of my favorite arias.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_k4seQXPqA&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tDbc_rr43E
This is lovely, but I so prefer Italian. German always sounds so harsh to
my ears.
>
> And finally the tenor Caruso thought was the greatest in the world...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-iXVfMZ-M
I'm quite familar with his work. Of course, I've sung this one in Italian,
though. :)
fmomoon
"mrbonner" <Dv...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:f766dc90-f3c2-43c6...@k19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
:) Mickey's the brain here. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know about
music. I'm just a choir teacher who is rather addicted to youtube. I
can't even begin to estimate how long it took me to find those and I enjoyed
ever second. I am usually in total disagreement with lists about anything,
especially something as subjective as the greatest tenors list. As Mickey
said, there are far too many variables. Once the nonsense goes away and the
stupid games stop, this really is quite a delightful group.
--
Moni
fmomoon
---------
Oh, that is lovely!
----------
Now, back to your comments above, Mickey rightly pointed out that I
was comparing a mature Jussi (45ish), with a young, just out from
behind the french horn, Fritz Wunderlich.
In fact, as he added and I agree, that version of Nessun Dorma by
Jussi might possibly be the best one extant.
Now that I think on it, Mickey, since Verdi and Puccini are my
favorite opera composers (though not by wide margins...mozart and
others come close), this may go far to explaining why I prefer Jussi
to Fritz.
---------
Oh, they're my favorites, too!
-------------
But anyway, Moni, for comparison, here is something magical (pun or
no) by Fritz Wunderlich, which Mickey posted before. Tamino's aria,
from The Magic Flute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnruLf_haY
-Aaron
------
Ah, thank you for that treat! I did "The Magic Flute" (Papagena, here)
while in college and one of my favorite moments was sitting backstage and
listening to our Tamino sing this. *sigh*
--
Moni
Aaron
You're welcome. And thanks to Mickey for waking me up to Wunderlich =D
Glad you're a Verdi/Puccini girl, like me. Err, I mean...you know what I
mean.
-Aaron
Aaron
>>>> I'm discussing the runs. If you are as well, I don't know how you can
>>>> say that. They sound distinct to me, and he at least hits all the
>>>> notes, even if you're going to argue precision.
>>>>
>>>> If you mean something else by "fioratura" I'm afraid I'm going to need
>>>> to know what time in the song you mean.
>>>
>>> Your music profs just took a huge resounding crash on the esteem
>>> meter. (Notice I don't blame you for not knowing). Fioratura, also
>>> fioritura, means flowery stuff, embellished lines, coloratura. Runs
>>> are something you get from eating bad clams.
>>
>> Well, Mickey, I don't know what to say but that you have a ridiculous
>> standard there... I looked in 4 different music dictionaries and your
>> damn term didn't show up. Still, I knew it meant "flowery stuff" from
>> my knowledge of Italian. I just wasn't aware it was used in place of
>> "runs".
>
> (You might want to toss your dictionaries.)
They were online dictionaries. I was googling.
Eventually, I found someone who was explaining their handle,
"mscoloratura" I think it was, and she also defined fioratura.
>>> Okay, we've gotten to that fork in the road where tastes diverge, and
>>> it is kind of interesting that these discussions almost always end in
>>> the same place. When comparing two generally well respected
>>> performers fans will pick one and practitioners will tend to pick the
>>> other in overwhelming numbers. Part of it is knowing the implication
>>> of the imperfections. No performance is perfect, but not all
>>> imperfections are created equal.
>>
>> You seem to forgive vocal blunders over technique inferiorities, if I
>> may simplify. For me, the piece is more enjoyable without the vocal
>> blunders.
>
> Or you might say I prefer transient error to persistent error. On the
> other hand, my sensitivity to certain imperfections might be different
> than yours.
I think a bigger problem is that I just don't have as much listening
time to either performer, through different songs and versions. If I
noticed the same error in different performances by Bjoerling, as you
say you have, it would bother me more.
> For example, I've never cared for the tendency of
> Bjoerling's voice to spread, go sharp and slightly white when pushed.
I had noticed this, but not too often. I dismissed it as a transient
error when it sounds like it might be a persistent one...
> Likewise, I thought that Wunderlich, particularly in his earlier years,
> tended to "hook" too aggressively when traversing the second passaggio.
> On balance, I find Wunderlich's faults less distracting.
Not sure what hooking is.
>> I do not think you are accurate in giving the impression that yours is
>> the preference of technical accuracy.
>
> It's not just technical brilliance. I personally prefer the sound of
> Wunderlich's voice.
And I'm the opposite, obviously.
I'm going to respond here to another statement you made, where you said
you prefer the Italianate tenors for Italian works, Germanic for
Germanic, etc.
If you have such particular preferences, I'm curious how you pick a
favorite tenor. It seems you would have several, depending on the
music's origin.
>>> JohnGavin elsewhere expresses his admiration of the Beecham, De Los
>>> Angeles, Bjoerling "La Boheme," yet, when you talk to opera
>>> performers, they are more likely to cite the Serafin, Tebaldi,
>>> Bergonzi "La Boheme." Both are great recordings, I own both, but if
>>> forced to keep only one, I'd toss Beecham, no contest.
>>
>> Not familiar.
>
> Pity. Possibly two of the best opera recording ever made.
I still need to find my copy to see which La Boheme I have. Back when it
was given to me, I didn't know as much about great singers as I do now,
which is still not much.
>>> Part of the reason for this parting of the ways is because
>>> practitioners often judge performers by standards or icons not well
>>> know to the general public, even that part of the public which is
>>> interested in the art.
>>
>> I can understand that...but you must understand at the same time that
>> allowances must be made for those of us without such experience with
>> those icons. It doesn't invalidate our preferences, though.
>
> Absolute not. It doesn't. It's just that at the point where
> practitioners have a fan-like response to a performance, their criteria
> are likely going to be different than the general public's. It accounts
> for multiple valid choices and goes to explain why such occur.
>
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
> Aaron wrote:
>> Mickey wrote:
>>
>>> Likewise, I thought that Wunderlich, particularly in his earlier
>>> years, tended to "hook" too aggressively when traversing the second
>>> passaggio. On balance, I find Wunderlich's faults less distracting.
>>
>> Not sure what hooking is.
>
> going to leave it right there, as going much further is going to get
> very hairy and windy.
"Look it up, dear"...got it.
>>>> I do not think you are accurate in giving the impression that yours
>>>> is the preference of technical accuracy.
>>>
>>> It's not just technical brilliance. I personally prefer the sound of
>>> Wunderlich's voice.
>>
>> And I'm the opposite, obviously.
>>
>> I'm going to respond here to another statement you made, where you
>> said you prefer the Italianate tenors for Italian works, Germanic for
>> Germanic, etc.
>>
>> If you have such particular preferences, I'm curious how you pick a
>> favorite tenor. It seems you would have several, depending on the
>> music's origin.
>
> I have a number of favorites depending on the literature, but if pressed
> to name my absolute favorite tenor, it's Wunderlich, though I very much
> enjoy the work of a dozen or so others, including Bjoerling.
Aye aye.
> I stumbled on another great tenor (often overlooked in discussions)
> while hunting for a Wunderlich clip. I suspect, as a Bjoerling fan, his
> voice may be very much to your taste. (I do prefer him to Bjoerling in
> most things.)
I'd heard him on a compilation CD or two. He's ok, but no Bjoerling...he
did make #9 on that BBC list so he's not as overlooked as some of the
others you mentioned before.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJDCj8qGXhE&feature=related
Uses his head voice a lot, doesn't he? And more obviously so. If I can
notice it, it's a problem, I'd think.
And what's worse, in this photo he looks like Bill Murray!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrby_Z2CAVg&feature=related
I'd compare him more to Carrerras, actually.
I'll stick to Fritzy and Jussi, perhaps some Corelli...
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
Mickey, did you ever hear Bjoerling sing this one by Tosti? It's on one
of my CDs and I hadn't paid notice to it before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFNZ5vqIWnA
-Aaron
Aaron
> more garlic on it...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXfutUQ6KBM&feature=related
Garlic and testosterone. Nice! I prefer a lighter voice, but that's
pretty darn good!
> I wonder whose version he listened to hanging out at Victor's Cafe in
> Philadelphia? Probably this one...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZo81i4VbeY&feature=related
Sounds right. Very similar approaches by both singers.
Hey, "Di tu se fedele" from Ballo, with Bjoerling...I have this on
another CD and it's pretty fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_OFNhaXR_k
Who's your favorite tenor for this one?
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
> side." These clips may say more than almost all the opera clips we've
> shared to explain why Fritz holds a special place for a lot of singers
> and listeners. First for pure simplicity and beauty of line. (This link
> should qualify as voice lesson on its own.)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnThNIvS7rI
That was sublime, indeed. I was ready to concede after that alone.
You've been holding back! Now I KNOW you enjoyed this contest, or else
you wouldn't have dragged it out! =D
> And then versatility... This next is for all intent a show tune. He
> tosses it off stylishly, not like an opera singer condescending.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KBrnZtI4yU
It was ok. I'm starting to notice a trend...these are all in German. Bit
of a boon for him, innit?
> Then he turns around and sings Bach with no less a sense of authenticity.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxzAk04rJtw&feature=related
I'm not loving the piece, he has some pitch troubles with the fioratura
around 1:30, but still very good.
> And just to top things off he sings Mahler
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKwgHYZfykc&feature=related
Not my thing at all. I'm not sure I've liked anything by Mahler. And I'm
a classical music guy at heart.
I'll give you that he *would have* been the #1 tenor of all time, if
he'd had a chance. And he's definitely tied for #1 even as it is.
Of course, you don't know what my voice sounds like ;D
I've got my first Wunderlich CD coming soon, I'll go from there...
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
> three more.
I'm not either, but it's a fun aria, don't you think?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwHY6jqhK5I&feature=related
Argh. What did I do to deserve that? Was it my Britain's Got Talent post
for BOH, of the 10 year old girl?
I don't make it a habit to listen to children singing.
Well now wait a minute, that one singing solo around 1:30-2:30 is pretty
darn impressive! That's got to be him...I recognize the piercing voice. Hmm.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
Begging your pardon, Mister, but I started this thread and it was indeed
a contest.
But you enjoyed the thread, then. And see I found something by Jussi you
hadn't heard him sing before!
> just an opportunity to help a new friend discover
> something wonderful.
That makes me smile. I would have just used a smiley, but I know you
don't like them so this once I resisted the urge.
And you certainly have done what you just said.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
wrote:
> >>>> from The Magic Flute:
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnruLf_haY
>
> >>>> -Aaron
> >>>> ------
> >>>> Ah, thank you for that treat! I did "The Magic Flute" (Papagena,
> >>>> here) while in college and one of my favorite moments was sitting
> >>>> backstage and listening to our Tamino sing this. *sigh*
>
> >>> You're welcome. And thanks to Mickey for waking me up toWunderlich=D
>
> >>> Glad you're a Verdi/Puccini girl, like me. Err, I mean...you know
> >>> what I mean.
>
> >>> -Aaron
>
> >> Okay. Now the gloves come off. I'm going to turn you to the "light
> >> side." These clips may say more than almost all the opera clips we've
> >> shared to explain why Fritz holds a special place for a lot of singers
> >> and listeners. First for pure simplicity and beauty of line. (This
> >> link should qualify as voice lesson on its own.)
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnThNIvS7rI
>
> > That was sublime, indeed. I was ready to concede after that alone.
> > You've been holding back! Now I KNOW you enjoyed this contest, or else
> > you wouldn't have dragged it out! =D
>
> something wonderful.
>
> The Other Mickey
Want to hear Wunderlich singing Lensky's aria? Stumbled upon this on
youtube, hadn't really liked it before even though I find it haunting,
because I'd only heard Carrerras (post cancer) and Gedda (when old)
sing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVJgwbSemA
Start around 2:30 if you want to skip all the intro stuff...
-Aaron
Aaron
<mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote:
> The subject line tells most of the story. Let's talk sopranos this week,
> which might give Moni a bit more of a way into the conversation. The
> only ground rules will be that we try to compare apples to apples and
> not compare true lyric sopranos to the girls with the brass bras. Even
> so, there is going to be a certain amount of overlap.
This is going to take me considerable work. In fact, I admit
immediately that I don't really "collect" sopranos, or female
vocalists at all.
I know, however, that after we're done with this thread, I WILL know a
great deal! Therefore...
I will do my listening, and research, and try and become a worthy
opponent. Moni won't be back till Sunday, I think, unfortunately!
My all time favorite soprano is Callas, and she was so versatile that
I might put her in several categories. Apologies if I do so
incorrectly.
> So here's my starting list of favorites by category.
>
> Mozart specialist (Queen of the Night, Konstanze, et al): Edda Moser. I
> saw her as Konstanze in Munich in the 70s. Her live singing is equally
> fearless. The standing ovation following this aria lasted nearly ten
> minutes. I've never seen an audience go that nuts at the opera.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcKmyhruQjU&feature=related
She's good, for certain. But what about Arleen Auger? Hear how she
contains the high notes around 7:30? What control! Can't find many
clips of her, sadly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1l3vv1WWLM&feature=related
I guess she's not a dramatic coloratura. You just said "Mozart
specialist", though.
Maybe we could compromise. How about both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ9R089abw8
> Lyrico spinto: My absolute favorite is Muzio, but among those sopranos
> in the modern recorded era, I'm a fan of Tebaldi. I can live with her
> occasional flatting at the top. There is no one remotely in her league
> singing this literature today. (BTW, that's Bjoerling singing "Si" in
> the middle of the aria.)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Np9sndAt8
Agreed. Tebaldi is fantastic. My mom has been compared to her, as in
"you sound like Tebaldi". I think it always made her day to hear that.
How about Callas, same aria? I think her initial dramatic background
brings something unique to the bel canto style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ews3B-4Gc
Not sure the date etc. of this recording. But again, you can see I'm a
sucker for the full voice full volume--> pull back to sotto voce, on
high notes.
> Dramatic soprano: Eva Turner has got to be counted a favorite if for no
> other reason than her Turandot. From 4:30 or so on, she displays an
> extra gear that even the estimable Birgit Nilsson lacked. This is power
> singing of the first order. It's a pity that her recordings date from
> the early part of the electrical era.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hUJsbLiPM
I'm not a big fan of dramatic sopranos, preferric lyric even in roles
like Turandot, but how about Montserrat Caballe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv5_2e6QQ08
The wikipedia article says she got a 25 minute standing ovation in
1965 when she substituted for Marilyn Horne in Donizetti's Lucrezia
Borgia at New York's Carnegie Hall.
Check out that high note around 3:45!
More feminine and lovely than Eva Turner's version, though it may not
suit the role as well given Turandot's nature throughout most of the
opera.
With Pavarotti in this version, and the sublime moment we all wait for
is at 5:47...
And here's a trio of non-dramatic sopranos singing one of my favorites
(one of the few I know) in the dramatic literature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp94vrI_-oY
> Lyric: This category is obviously a crap shoot, as a lot of the singers
> we could throw in here also sing the lyrico spinto literature and a few
> have made a name in the Mozart specialist literature. My candidate, I
> will admit, had one of the most distinctive voices in this category. I
> make no apologies for her inclusion; I just loved her singing.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ipS1PT7CYo&feature=related
Wow...
I had never heard that nor her before. Thank you so much for that!
Obviously I put Callas in here, too, but let me find someone else
besides my default "female Bjoerling" lol
Von Stade? From Barber...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Jvr5lg8vE
> Lyric coloratura: I'll leave this open for someone else to fill more
> definitively. As one of my teachers remarked "Coloratura is not a voice
> category, it's a disease." He was joking, of course. His point was that
> a well trained voice should have the flexibility to sing the florid
> literature, as this link, also to a Lucia Popp clip, shows. (And wasn't
> she a little cutie. She started her vocal training because she wanted to
> be an actress. Who knew?)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwU6hTMPhZ4&feature=related
Hmm. Nice. You like Xerxes, don't you? I'll have to check it out.
For me? Edda Moser without a doubt =D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNEOl4bcfkc
Can you believe she can pull this off with that amazingly rich voice?
Or for a "true" coloratura, many prefer Diana Damrau:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8AAs6sKkHA&feature=related
But I think she is overshadowed by Moser, even in her own bailywick.
But at least you can hear her right now, and she's in her prime...
Ok I take back some of what I just said about Moser...check Diana out
in the hardest part, around 2:10. Amazing.
> The Other Mickey
I'll do some more research and get better at this one...
-Aaron
Aaron
> > youtube, hadn't really liked it before even though I find it haunting,
> > because I'd only heard Carrerras (post cancer) and Gedda (when old)
> > sing it.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVJgwbSemA
>
> > Start around 2:30 if you want to skip all the intro stuff...
>
> Thanks.
>
> The Other Mickey
My pleasure. Have you heard him singing (with a cold!) Ave Maria the
only time he recorded it? Just listened to this for the first time
today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1nJT5z7W5E
-Aaron
Aaron
wrote:
> Konstanze is seriously pissed. Auger's voice just isn't capable of the
> emotional range necessary for this literature. (I would classify her
> among the lyric sopranos. I warned you the lines get somewhat arbitrary)
> That not to say she isn't a pretty fair dinkum singer, but this is all
> just a little too polite.> Nice and it shows the contrast of color and intensity I mentioned above.
I thought a side-by-side comparison would be nice...
> >> Lyrico spinto: My absolute favorite is Muzio, but among those sopranos
> >> in the modern recorded era, I'm a fan of Tebaldi. I can live with her
> >> occasional flatting at the top. There is no one remotely in her league
> >> singing this literature today. (BTW, that's Bjoerling singing "Si" in
> >> the middle of the aria.)
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Np9sndAt8
>
> > Agreed. Tebaldi is fantastic. My mom has been compared to her, as in
> > "you sound like Tebaldi". I think it always made her day to hear that.
>
> > How about Callas, same aria? I think her initial dramatic background
> > brings something unique to the bel canto style:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ews3B-4Gc
>
> While I admired the musicality and theatrical sense of Callas, I could
> never get past the wobbly top and metalic mid-range. If you admire the
> Callas virtues, why not someone who took them one step further and
> without the vocal anomalies.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0lq-qXW_1c
Yes, she is better...you've got that right!
> > Not sure the date etc. of this recording. But again, you can see I'm a
> > sucker for the full voice full volume--> pull back to sotto voce, on
> > high notes.
> >> Dramatic soprano: Eva Turner has got to be counted a favorite if for no
> >> other reason than her Turandot. From 4:30 or so on, she displays an
> >> extra gear that even the estimable Birgit Nilsson lacked. This is power
> >> singing of the first order. It's a pity that her recordings date from
> >> the early part of the electrical era.
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hUJsbLiPM
>
> > I'm not a big fan of dramatic sopranos, preferric lyric even in roles
> > like Turandot, but how about Montserrat Caballe?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv5_2e6QQ08
>
> Doesn't really have the horsepower to compete with Turner. I would have
> thought, although she never sang Turandot, the you, being a fan of
> things Scandahoovian, might have offered something from this great
> dramatic soprano.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbGB0JtefvQ
I had never heard of her, and I don't really follow the
Scandals...just loved Bjoerling's voice from the first time I heard
it.
She's very good, thank you for introducing me.
> > The wikipedia article says she got a 25 minute standing ovation in
> > 1965 when she substituted for Marilyn Horne in Donizetti's Lucrezia
> > Borgia at New York's Carnegie Hall.
>
> No doubt she was a wonderful singer.
Oh and what about Marilyn Horne, by the way?
> > Check out that high note around 3:45!
>
> > More feminine and lovely than Eva Turner's version, though it may not
> > suit the role as well given Turandot's nature throughout most of the
> > opera.
>
> > With Pavarotti in this version, and the sublime moment we all wait for
> > is at 5:47...
>
> And he pretty much buries her.
He buries almost any female lead...but that's ok because I prefer
listening to tenors...
> The problem they had with Turner was
> getting her far enough up stage that she didn't bury the orchestra.
> (During a one mic recording session of an excerpt from Aida, they had to
> put Turner behind the chorus to get the balances right.)
LOL
> > And here's a trio of non-dramatic sopranos singing one of my favorites
> > (one of the few I know) in the dramatic literature:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp94vrI_-oY
>
> I've got three complete Rosenkavaliers (and a full orchestra score) and
> that's probably still not enough.
I need to get a full version...what's the best recording? Got one with
Moser? =D
> >> Lyric: This category is obviously a crap shoot, as a lot of the singers
> >> we could throw in here also sing the lyrico spinto literature and a few
> >> have made a name in the Mozart specialist literature. My candidate, I
> >> will admit, had one of the most distinctive voices in this category. I
> >> make no apologies for her inclusion; I just loved her singing.
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ipS1PT7CYo&feature=related
>
> > Wow...
>
> > I had never heard that nor her before. Thank you so much for that!
> > Obviously I put Callas in here, too, but let me find someone else
> > besides my default "female Bjoerling" lol
>
> > Von Stade? From Barber...
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Jvr5lg8vE
>
> That's slipping one in under the tent flat: Lyric (Mezzo) Soprano. I
> have fond memories of her singing Melisande. Now, as a final farewell to
> Matt and as an object lesson why most opera singers should stay the hell
> away from the American Songbook...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck3vTWXpdB8
I thought that was nice, if a little mechanical. Were you saying stay
away because Flicka's already done it and better, or were you saying
she's an example of someone doing it poorly?
OK how about Mirella Fre(g)ni?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2fiptT8JpU
> >> Lyric coloratura: I'll leave this open for someone else to fill more
> >> definitively. As one of my teachers remarked "Coloratura is not a voice
> >> category, it's a disease." He was joking, of course. His point was that
> >> a well trained voice should have the flexibility to sing the florid
> >> literature, as this link, also to a Lucia Popp clip, shows. (And wasn't
> >> she a little cutie. She started her vocal training because she wanted to
> >> be an actress. Who knew?)
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwU6hTMPhZ4&feature=related
>
> > Hmm. Nice. You like Xerxes, don't you? I'll have to check it out.
>
> > For me? Edda Moser without a doubt =D
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNEOl4bcfkc
>
> > Can you believe she can pull this off with that amazingly rich voice?
>
> > Or for a "true" coloratura, many prefer Diana Damrau:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8AAs6sKkHA&feature=related
>
> > But I think she is overshadowed by Moser, even in her own bailywick.
> > But at least you can hear her right now, and she's in her prime...
>
> My, that's a leisurely walk in the park tempo. She hardly seems pissed
> at all.
Really? Here's a different version with video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZG90IhvGZk
Seems angry enough to me. Wouldn't want to see angrier... I
acknowledge the tempo comment, though.
> > Ok I take back some of what I just said about Moser...check Diana out
> > in the hardest part, around 2:10. Amazing.
>
> But compare the tempi. She sacrifices the drive of the piece just to hit
> the notes. Compare the forward momentum driving toward the end of the
> aria and how that impacts the last 20 seconds or so, starting with
> "Hoert, Rachegoetter." (Damrau sounds like she stops to top up and the
> tank and get a fresh set of rubber.) After comparing the two, tell me
> anybody does angry bitch better than Moser.
I agree, Moser is better at that, and overall.
Hey, you mentioned metallic before...how about mechanical AND
metallic? And transposed down?
If you just said "yes" to all of that, listen to Joan Sutherland sing
it. I won't be so cruel as to post a link...
But, seriously, if you want speed, and an incredible coloratura voice,
how about Sumi Jo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njgzI0T7hBI&feature=related
Her voice is more suited for this range than Moser, great as Moser is.
And maybe better than Popp too...
But not very angry. Ah well...
Here's a cute one, better suited for her personality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALK-e_j91oM
The Doll Song. Love this...and you can be mechanical!
Keep listening, she really shows off from 2:56 through...3:08! Wow.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
wrote:
*snip for urgency*
> > The Doll Song. Love this...and you can be mechanical!
>
> The vibrato is a little intrusive on the sustained pitches.
>
> > Keep listening, she really shows off from 2:56 through...3:08! Wow.
>
> I offer this version, not for the singing (unfortunately in English),
> which is pretty darned good, but for the dancing of Moira Shearer, who
> was a miracle.
Cite! ;D
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
JohnGavin
wrote:
>
> The Other Mickey
Here's a favorite soprano of mine. Neither an operatic nor a
melodramatic voice, but rather a pure voice, clear as water...Elly
Ameling:
Aaron
>
> The Other Mickey
No, I mean you didn't provide the link!
-Aaron
Vandar
I'm waiting for Mickey to start discussing Sarah Brightman with you.
After all, that is his most favorite singer of all time. It is! Really!
Ask him about her. I dare ya!
Aaron
OMG I love Sarah Brightman! She is the best dramatic lyric coloratura
fioratura of all time!
She could sing the phone book, dawg!
-Aaron
Aaron
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oK24SFzHw&feature=PlayList&p=E7AF0B0A4F16ADFE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22
>
>
> The Other Mickey
OK, now your email is complete, and I can listen, process, and
reply/agree with you outright.
I have my parents over, so I'm a little behind on reading and replying...
-Aaron
Aaron
> slow around here.
>
> The Other Mickey
LOL well I'm about to pass out tonight...explanation in a separate
thread I'm about to write...
-Aaron
Aaron
>
> The Other Mickey
The group's computer geek is over thataway
*points at Vandar*
-Aaron
Cheri
> I have my parents over, so I'm a little behind on reading and replying...
>
> -Aaron
=========
Danged parents! They get in the way of important stuff, don't they. ;-)
Cheri
Aaron
Yup. LOTS of important stuff ;D
-Aaron
Aaron
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKZTEGMTW_E
>
> The Other Mickey
Argh.
Well, my head voice sounds a million times better than that, thank
goodness. I wonder if he's trying to be that bad, or if he actually
can't carry a tune.
-Aaron
Aaron
LOL
Umm, yes, dancing was wonderful, but she wasn't singing that...
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
> music's. Accented syllables are accented, unaccented syllables are not,
> and the grammatic structure is reinforced through her attention to line.
> Very high-level craft. (And why am I not surprised that she would be one
> of your favorites?)
>
> The Other Mickey
She's certainly very good, but she doesn't sing my kind of music!
-Aaron
Aaron
> outstanding musician, and a wonderful singer. I would loved to have
> heard more from her before she went to Germany. While there, she sang
> too much material that didn't suit her long term vocal interests and
> returned something of a vocal shambles. What most of us have heard and
> admired is, to some degree, what could be reassembled after the voice
> came apart.
>
>>>> Check out that high note around 3:45!
>>>> More feminine and lovely than Eva Turner's version, though it may not
>>>> suit the role as well given Turandot's nature throughout most of the
>>>> opera.
>>>> With Pavarotti in this version, and the sublime moment we all wait for
>>>> is at 5:47...
>>> And he pretty much buries her.
>>
>> He buries almost any female lead...but that's ok because I prefer
>> listening to tenors...
>
> largest voice.
>
> Here's another great dramatic soprano, one whom I knew slightly. The
> absolute top of the voice was always problematic, but lordy the rest of
> the voice more than made up for it. (BTW, she is one of the few opera
> singers who could and did crossover very successfully to popular music.)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCgJ80nIm8w&feature=related
Absolutely. Great power and tone!
How about Birgit as Brunnhilde?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRj9f3PCe0M&feature=related
> >> The problem they had with Turner was
>>> getting her far enough up stage that she didn't bury the orchestra.
>>> (During a one mic recording session of an excerpt from Aida, they had to
>>> put Turner behind the chorus to get the balances right.)
>>
>> LOL
>>
>>>> And here's a trio of non-dramatic sopranos singing one of my favorites
>>>> (one of the few I know) in the dramatic literature:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp94vrI_-oY
>>> I've got three complete Rosenkavaliers (and a full orchestra score) and
>>> that's probably still not enough.
>>
>> I need to get a full version...what's the best recording? Got one with
>> Moser? =D
>
> As far as I can tell, Moser has never recorded the work, as the same
> qualities which make her ideal for the "witches and bitches" works again
> her as a Marshalin. As for a recommended Rosenkav, there are a lot of
> choices. What a lot of folk think of as the definitive recording is the
> Schwarzkopf von Karajan recording on EMI. I own a copy of this one, but
> I sometimes find Schwartzkopf a bit TOO mannered. (I also have a VHS
> recording of a live performance also with Schwartzkopf and von Karajan.)
> If you would like a video, there are a lot of good choices. I recently
> picked up a Bluray of the Tomowa-Sintow von Karajan performance, also
> available on DVD. Highly recommended.
OK, I'll take a look. I had seen many comments about Schwartzkopf
(usually unfavorable comparisons) on the links you provided for other
sopranos.
I was peeking around and found this 1979 version with Lucia Popp!
Surprised you didn't mention it...
Is it not good, or something? I know you like Popp...
>>>>> Lyric: This category is obviously a crap shoot, as a lot of the
>>>>> singers
>>>>> we could throw in here also sing the lyrico spinto literature and a
>>>>> few
>>>>> have made a name in the Mozart specialist literature. My candidate, I
>>>>> will admit, had one of the most distinctive voices in this category. I
>>>>> make no apologies for her inclusion; I just loved her singing.
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ipS1PT7CYo&feature=related
>>>> Wow...
>>>> I had never heard that nor her before. Thank you so much for that!
>>>> Obviously I put Callas in here, too, but let me find someone else
>>>> besides my default "female Bjoerling" lol
>>>> Von Stade? From Barber...
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Jvr5lg8vE
>>> That's slipping one in under the tent flat: Lyric (Mezzo) Soprano. I
>>> have fond memories of her singing Melisande. Now, as a final farewell to
>>> Matt and as an object lesson why most opera singers should stay the hell
>>> away from the American Songbook...
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck3vTWXpdB8
>
> Stay the hell away. If you want to hear something truly wretched, borrow
> (don't buy, please) Sam Ramey's "So in Love," a Broadway crossover CD.
> It may be worse than Michael Bolton's "My Secret Passion," (link
> provided below), an opera aria crossover, and not nearly as good as
> "Richard Tucker sings Broadway Show Stoppers," which actually has some
> good moments.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkrCMI2fXTo
Hunh. Not terribly shabby. He sounds funny, way too much throat tension
or something? His voice sounds covered. But he did a good job.
I did buy something almost as bad by Sam Ramey, "Samuel Ramey sings
Rodgers and Hammerstein". I listened to it once. Then tried to forget I
owned it.
>> I thought that was nice, if a little mechanical. Were you saying stay
>> away because Flicka's already done it and better, or were you saying
>> she's an example of someone doing it poorly?
>>
>> OK how about Mirella Fre(g)ni?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2fiptT8JpU
>
> A lovely lyric who managed to take on many of the iconic spinto and
> dramatic roles without losing her essential lyric quality. A smart
> singer who was almost never worse than second tier, and often first
> tier. That said, there are a lot of better Violettas out there (and
> Mimis, Butterflys, etc.), but hardly any who were as good in all. She
> was a bit of Swiss Army Knife, immensely useful, but seldom the ideal
> tool. Speaking of Violettas (and versatile sopranos). I've heard a
> number of rare recording of Sempre Libera, including a live performance
> of Sills (on her 21st birthday) recorded, I believe, in Biloxi, while on
> tour with the Charles Wagner Opera Company. Mighty impressive. I've also
> heard a recording of a very young Julie Andrews singing it. Probably the
> most versatile soprano of the 20th century, though, and one of the
> greatest was Rosa Ponselle.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHapIzwrRf0&feature=related
I don't know, a little wild for me, and apparently transposed down... I
think it's funny how the person who posted it didn't think it was great
(read his/her notes).
Anna Netrebko is good, and current:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4sONjSaHWA
That's all I've got for this song...what other favorites do you have?
"Signore, Ascolta" (also from Turandot) is one of mine.
I'll use one of your favorites as the starting point. Tebaldi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2hKT5BRg18
I prefer this version, which is the first one I ever heard, Barbara
Hendricks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wQKAs5b3U
Her voice is more lilting, and she sings with more passion on this aria
at least. Listen to those high notes at the end (2:05 on)... Liu's other
solo is in this clip...
> As I was speaking of Julie Andrews, I couldn't find her Sempre Libera,
> but I did find these. She is 12 years old in the Mignon and 15 in the J.
> Strauss.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2-YGGn0y4
Spectacular, and cute as a button. Though I bet Suzanne sounded just
like that when she was 12...lol
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_7nlVqR6KA&feature=related
That vocal surgery disaster was such a tragedy!
>> But, seriously, if you want speed, and an incredible coloratura voice,
>> how about Sumi Jo?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njgzI0T7hBI&feature=related
>>
>> Her voice is more suited for this range than Moser, great as Moser is.
>> And maybe better than Popp too...
>>
>> But not very angry. Ah well...
>
> There's more to singing effectively than simply hitting the notes.
> Creating real line can mean sacrificing absolute accuracy to achieve the
> proper tempo, correct pronunciation and emphasis, and to create an
> expressive dynamic contour. Sumi Jo creates a very attractive sound and
> hits all the notes quite well. The rest does not quite happen, which
> keeps her out of the top rank of singers in her category.
How could I have forgotten her??? Lily Pons, The Bell Song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P7ufSXXk68&feature=PlayList&p=88C4F3219A732465&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=8
That's how it's done, in the lyric coloratura style =D
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
JohnGavin
were political. Some people just made up their minds they weren't
going to like what she did, because of her alleged affiliations.
Aaron
Ahh, so I SHOULD look her up. Good to know! I hate when politics gets in
the way of art! Like Bobby Fischer...or Hitler ;D
-Aaron
JohnGavin
> JohnGavin wrote:
>
> > I always suspect that some of the motivation for panning Schwartzkopf
> > were political. Some people just made up their minds they weren't
> > going to like what she did, because of her alleged affiliations.
>
> Ahh, so I SHOULD look her up. Good to know! I hate when politics gets in
> the way of art! Like Bobby Fischer...or Hitler ;D
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Aaron - notice that I said "some" of the motivation.
You're completely over reaching.
Aaron
I noticed. Did you notice I "said" ";D" ?
> You're completely over reaching.
You're exaggerating.
-Aaron
Aaron
> dead for half a century or more. In addition to be a musical satirist,
> Aspinall is also one of the top coaches and a world class expert in the
> bel canto literature.
>
> The Other Mickey
Ahh, well then! Umm, please don't tell him what I just wrote...
-Aaron
Aaron
>
> Nilsson has to be consider one of the top two Brunnhildes of the 20th
> century. People who heard both voices in their primes, gave the nod to
> Kirsten Flagstad. Here's Flagstad as Isolde in 1936
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dfbZ6S6DU4
Drat! Foiled again! Well, at least I first mentioned Pons and Freni...
I listened to Nilsson's as well, and I have to agree that Flagstad's is
better even though the Nilsson one was more recent.
I may, when getting operas, still go for Nilsson because of the
recency==>better recording quality, but I'm not sure.
>>>> I need to get a full version...what's the best recording? Got one with
>>>> Moser? =D
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, Moser has never recorded the work, as the same
>>> qualities which make her ideal for the "witches and bitches" works
>>> again her as a Marshalin. As for a recommended Rosenkav, there are a
>>> lot of choices. What a lot of folk think of as the definitive
>>> recording is the Schwarzkopf von Karajan recording on EMI. I own a
>>> copy of this one, but I sometimes find Schwartzkopf a bit TOO
>>> mannered. (I also have a VHS recording of a live performance also
>>> with Schwartzkopf and von Karajan.) If you would like a video, there
>>> are a lot of good choices. I recently picked up a Bluray of the
>>> Tomowa-Sintow von Karajan performance, also available on DVD. Highly
>>> recommended.
>>
>> OK, I'll take a look. I had seen many comments about Schwartzkopf
>> (usually unfavorable comparisons) on the links you provided for other
>> sopranos.
>>
>> I was peeking around and found this 1979 version with Lucia Popp!
>> Surprised you didn't mention it...
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/cnqwyp
>>
>> Is it not good, or something? I know you like Popp...
>
> Like I said, a lot of good choices. Though Jones starts out well (in the
> trio), by the end she is starting to show the wobble which characterized
> a lot of her career. When you buy a Rosenkav it's usually for the
> Marschalin, the conductor, and the Baron Och, in that order. On balance,
> this version didn't make it in my very short list, in spite of Popp.
Got it.
>> Anna Netrebko is good, and current:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4sONjSaHWA
>>
>> That's all I've got for this song...what other favorites do you have?
>> "Signore, Ascolta" (also from Turandot) is one of mine.
>>
>> I'll use one of your favorites as the starting point. Tebaldi:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2hKT5BRg18
>>
>> I prefer this version, which is the first one I ever heard, Barbara
>> Hendricks:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wQKAs5b3U
>
> Certainly a nice sound, but the diction is atrocious. The vowels are all
> messed up. I also would not describe this as a particularly good voice
> for Puccini. Rather white and light.
But I like my sopranos light! It's more to that personal preference,
where I like the same sound everywhere regardless of how appropriate it
is, I guess...
> This is more to the point. Leontyne Price:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYOyixYEulg
So heavy, and vibrato so wide! But yes, certainly beautiful.
Isn't she a famous dramatic soprano? Surprises me to hear her so Lyrical.
>> How could I have forgotten her??? Lily Pons, The Bell Song:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P7ufSXXk68&feature=PlayList&p=88C4F3219A732465&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=8
>>
>
> Did you know she had horrible stage nerves and typically threw up before
> performances. She was already a tiny women and this made keeping her
> weight up difficult during her performing year. This probably accounted
> for her relatively early retirement.
>
> While we're on the subject of French lyric coloraturas... Stick with it
> regardless of your first impressions.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hdZaQi4-I&feature=related
Ungodly. I hated her voice, otherwise, but that was impressive.
How about Natalie Dessay's range?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qspj08jYZzM&feature=related
Overall, she's a better Lucia (same solo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKRiFph8Gek
Quite a voice, actually...I think I'll latch onto her as my coloratura
du jour (or more). And she's acting the part much more than the other woman.
But I don't know in what aria she hits the A-flat from that other clip.
Wish I did...it sounded more human than Robin's high B-flat!
So here's her Der Holle Rache:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qqDKUKvoIs
Geez, she hits every note of the fioratura leading up to the high
f's...I didn't know all of those notes were in the sheet music, because
everyone else bungles them!
And singing on the knees!
And what a view into her throat on the hardest part the other woman gets
at 2:20. I'd pay good money for that close a view...
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
No links? Are we pretty much done here? I wish Moni had been around--she
comes back today. She would have enjoyed this one.
Ah well, I was thinking, next, of posting my meager opera collection for
you to comment on and make suggestions for improvements. Probably
tonight...we're going to a friend's soon. I can figure out, using
Amazon, which La Boheme I have, because I remember the cover pretty
clearly...it had a lot of green in it, like a garden or jungle scene or
something... Well, I'll know it when I see it.
Interested in discussing the operas I have?
>>> This is more to the point. Leontyne Price:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYOyixYEulg
>>
>> So heavy, and vibrato so wide! But yes, certainly beautiful.
>>
>> Isn't she a famous dramatic soprano? Surprises me to hear her so Lyrical.
>
> Everybody has to start somewhere. Price waited to grow into her roles,
> rather than rushing into them, which probably accounts for remarkable
> vocal longevity.
I see.
>>> While we're on the subject of French lyric coloraturas... Stick with
>>> it regardless of your first impressions.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hdZaQi4-I&feature=related
>>
>> Ungodly. I hated her voice, otherwise, but that was impressive.
>>
>> How about Natalie Dessay's range?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qspj08jYZzM&feature=related
>
> That was fun.
Wasn't it? Now I have to find that high A-flat!
>> Overall, she's a better Lucia (same solo):
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKRiFph8Gek
>
> Never much care for the opera, but she does make better dramatic sense
> than nearly anyone else I've seen. I'm still not all that keen on the
> incipient wobble.
Meh. I'm not too familiar with the opera either, but I think I'll get
her version when I do.
>> Quite a voice, actually...I think I'll latch onto her as my coloratura
>> du jour (or more). And she's acting the part much more than the other
>> woman.
>>
>> But I don't know in what aria she hits the A-flat from that other
>> clip. Wish I did...it sounded more human than Robin's high B-flat!
>>
>> So here's her Der Holle Rache:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qqDKUKvoIs
>
> I'm surprised you like this after citing Price's vibrato as bothersome.
> Except when singing the passage work, she sounds like she's trying to
> push a worm up hill.
LOL
That is a great phrase.
But seriously, maybe it's something else I can't define. But I think
Dessay's vibrato is a touch tighter than Price's, and her voice is
lighter which makes the vibrato more forgiving to my ears. I absolutely
HATE a heavy voice with wide vibrato...
>> Geez, she hits every note of the fioratura leading up to the high
>> f's...I didn't know all of those notes were in the sheet music,
>> because everyone else bungles them!
>
> But sacrifices nearly everything else for them.
I'm sorry what is she sacrificing?
>> And singing on the knees!
>>
>> And what a view into her throat on the hardest part the other woman
>> gets at 2:20. I'd pay good money for that close a view...
>
> I don't much care for the interpretation either. It's too much like a
> battered house wife with PMS than a really scary bitch with magic
> powers. Angry yes, ready for committal, maybe not.
Well, maybe she just thinks the Queen of the Night was misunderstood by
folks like you...and Mozart...
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Aaron
Hey, we left one out! There's still a chance for Moni to weigh in!
What about Studer? I've always liked her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWTlbm-aqtU
Probably there are better clip choices but I was having trouble tonight...
I've always liked her voice...and she's quite attractive as well! Hubba
hubba!
She's got quite a flexible voice...has sung coloratura roles as well,
including Lucia...
>> But seriously, maybe it's something else I can't define. But I think
>> Dessay's vibrato is a touch tighter than Price's, and her voice is
>> lighter which makes the vibrato more forgiving to my ears. I
>> absolutely HATE a heavy voice with wide vibrato...
>
> I'm not sure I can quite define it very well either or even validate my
> theory of what I find troublesome, but I'll try. Vibrato involves
> modulation of both pitch and volume. Pleasing vibratos are roughly
> sinusoidal at 7.5 Hz +/- 1.5 Hz. This much seems clear and correct. What
> I suspect is that listeners differ in their threshold to deviations from
> the ideal in all the domains. Some may find slow vibratos troublesome,
> while others are more bothered by fast vibratos. Others may be more
> sensitive to the magnitude or depth of the vibrato, as well as
> deviations from sinusoidal shape.
Got it. I think slow and wide are what I dislike, with the combination
being the worst.
> Price's vibrato is typical of heavy voices (or voices which will become
> heavy) and has a characteristic often associated with African American
> singers. (On the latter, don't ask me why. I don't know, but suspect it
> is cultural.) Dessay's vibrato, except when singing complex passage
> work, sounds a bit wild (phase and waveform anomalies?) which I
> associate with a light voice trying to sing material that is too heavy.
> (Simply put, she over-sings. Imagine holding a bucket of water out at
> arms length. The arm will start to quiver unevenly before fatigues makes
> you lower your arm. Get where I'm going?)
Ayuh. Sounds like Price has the vibrato I hate, and Dessay has fast and
wide, which sounds wild to you. I actually love it...
>>>> Geez, she hits every note of the fioratura leading up to the high
>>>> f's...I didn't know all of those notes were in the sheet music,
>>>> because everyone else bungles them!
>>>
>>> But sacrifices nearly everything else for them.
>>
>> I'm sorry what is she sacrificing?
>
> Not all notes are created equally important. Think of an ornament,
> written out or not, as a single note or gesture. It is intended to fill
> a particular niche in the dynamic and agogic structure of the phrase. If
> each note is given near equal emphasis, the phrase loses meaning in
> service of individual note accuracy. By way of analogy, it doesn't
> matter if your spelling is accurate if the grammar is so chaotic the
> sentence cannot be parsed. To put this in string terms, her bowing is
> impressively wrong. The ornaments should be executed on a single bow or
> with a single bow change on a particular note, not as a succession of
> alternating up and down bows.
OK, I hear you Mickey, but most singers don't even sing the lowest of
the notes in those fioraturae. I'm talking about the ones that precede
the 8 repeated notes, 55555555-1. It is done 3 times on different notes,
and then the skipping up to the high f's follows.
If you're with me so far, here is what I thought the music was, based on
the way every soprano sings it:
3234555555551
But in fact when Dessay sings it, you can hear that it is actually:
321234555555551
That is harder, IMO. Especially at the same tempo.
I hope that made sense. Without the music in front of me (or a
non-computer keyboard) it is hard to explain better.
>>>> And singing on the knees!
>>>>
>>>> And what a view into her throat on the hardest part the other woman
>>>> gets at 2:20. I'd pay good money for that close a view...
>>>
>>> I don't much care for the interpretation either. It's too much like a
>>> battered house wife with PMS than a really scary bitch with magic
>>> powers. Angry yes, ready for committal, maybe not.
>>
>> Well, maybe she just thinks the Queen of the Night was misunderstood
>> by folks like you...and Mozart...
>
> I appreciate, even admire, that she is really trying to act, but this is
> potentially dangerous on the opera stage, as opera stage directors are
> most typically traffic cops who won't provide their "actors" with the
> sort of feedback that will keep them from stumbling off in unproductive
> (or even counterproductive) directions.
She has a pretty successful career, but again I hear you...
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron, did I actually say "hubba hubba" up there?
Aaron
> Aaron wrote:
>> Mickey wrote:
>>
>> No links? Are we pretty much done here? I wish Moni had been
>> around--she comes back today. She would have enjoyed this one.
>>
>> Ah well, I was thinking, next, of posting my meager opera collection
>> for you to comment on and make suggestions for improvements. Probably
>> tonight...we're going to a friend's soon. I can figure out, using
>> Amazon, which La Boheme I have, because I remember the cover pretty
>> clearly...it had a lot of green in it, like a garden or jungle scene
>> or something... Well, I'll know it when I see it.
>>
>> Interested in discussing the operas I have?
>>
>
> those I haven't or don't. I don't claim the encyclopedic knowledge of
> opera or opera recording of some of the real hard core types I've run
> into. (I used to know someone with 17 complete recordings of Lucia di
> Lammermoor. I own none.)
>
> The Other Mickey
OK, I know this is going to be a lot of work for you, and I really
appreciate it. Thinking back on our discussions, it looks like I have
some very good versions. Some were bought for me by dear mom, guess she
knows her singers!
I know you want privacy, but will you tell me if you sang in any of the
ones I have? It would be cool to have a connection like that. Of course,
if you are "Wolfgang Windgassen" I could understand your not wanting me
to figure that out...lol
I just mentioned Studer, and I knew I had her as Queen of the Night, but
couldn't find it on youtube. She was good, I thought.
I included Handel's Messiah, because I love it...and note that the
libretto for Handel's Semele was written by a former music professor of
mine at MIT, Ellen T. Harris. She has written more but I didn't check
all of my collection.
Here it is!
Aaron�s Opera Collection:
1. Wagner, Tristan Und Isolde, Birgit Nilsson, Wolfgang Windgassen,
Christa Ludwig, Martti Talvela, Eberhard Waechter, Karl Bohm director,
Bayreuther Festspiele Orchestra and choir, 1966
2. Puccini, La Fanciulla Del West, Renata Tebaldi, Mario del Monaco,
Cornell MacNeil, Giorgia Tozzi, Franco Capuana director, Academy of
Santa Cecilia, Roma, 1958.
3. Verdi, Aida, Montserrat Caballe, Placido Domingo, Nicolai Ghaiurov,
Riccardo Muti director, New Philharmonia Orchestra, 1974.
4. Wagner, Die Walkure, James King, Regine Crespin, Birgit Nilsson, Sir
Georg Solti directing, Wiener Philharmoniker, 1966.
5. Wagner, Das Rheingold, George London, Kirsten Flagstad, Solti and
Weiner Philharmoniker, 1959.
6. Puccini, Tosca, Maria Callas, Giuseppe di Stefano, Tito Gobbi, Victor
de Sabata director, Teatro alla Scala, Milano, 1953.
7. Mozart, Don Giovanni, Andreas Schmidt, Alastair Miles, Amanda
Halgrimson, Roger Norrington director, London Classical Players, 1993.
8. Donizetti, Lucia di Lammermoor, Maria Callas, Giuseppe di Stefano,
Tito Gobbi, Raffaele Arie, Tullio Serafin director, Maggio Musicale
Fiorentino, 1954.
9. Mozart, Le Nozze di Figaro, Giuseppe Taddei, Anna Moffo, Eberhard
Wachter, Elisabeth Shwarzkopf, Fiorenza Cossotto, Carlo Maria Giulini
director, Philharmonia Orchestra, 1961.
10. Mozart, Die Zauberflote, Samuel Ramey, Cheryl Studer, Kiri Te
Kanawa, Francisco Araiza, Olaf Bar, Eva Lind, Jose Van Dam, Sir Neville
Mariner director, Academy of St Martin in the Fields, 1989.
11. Verdi, Otello, Placido Domingo, Cheryl Studer, Sergei Lieferkus,
Myung-Whun Chung director, Bastille Opera, 1994.
12. Handel, Semele, Kathleen Battle, Marilyn Horne, Samuel Ramey, John
Aler, Sylvia McNair, Michael Chance, John Nelson Director, English
Chamber Orchestra, 1993, *******Libretto by a former professor: Ellen T.
Harris.
13. Handel, Messiah, Judith Nelson, Emma Kirkby, Carloyn Watkinson, Paul
Elliott, David Thomas, Christopher Hogwood directing, Choir of Christ
Church Cathedral in Oxford, The Academy of Ancient Music on authentic
instruments, 1980.
14. Puccini, Manon Lescaut, Mirella Freni, Luciano Pavarotti, Dwayne
Croft, Giuseppe Taddei, Cecilia Bartoli, James Levine director, the Met,
1993.
15. Mozart, Idomeneo, Placido Domingo, Cecilia Bartoli, Carol Vaness,
Heidi Grant Murphy, James Levine director, the Met, 1996.
16. Verdi, La Forza del Destino, Martina Arroyo, Piero Cappuccilli,
Carlo Bergonzi, Biancamaria Casoni, Lamberto Gardelli director, Royal
Philharmonic Orchestra, 1970.
17. Puccini, Turandot, Joan Sutherland, Luciano Pavarotti, Montserrat
Caballe, Nicolai Ghaiurov, Sir Peter Pears, Tom Krause, Zubin Mehta
director, London Philharmonic Orchestra, 1972.
18. Bizet, Carmen, Maria Callas, Nicolai Gedda, Andrea Guiot, Robert
Massard, Georges Pretre director, National opera orchestra of Paris, 1964.
19. Bizet, Carmen, Victoria de los Angeles, Nicolai Gedda, Janine
Micheau, Ernest Blanc, Sir Thomas Beecham director, National Radio
Orchestra of France, 1960.
20. Donizetti, L�elisir d�Amore, Ileana Cotrubas, Placido Domingo, Sir
Geraint Evans, Ingvar Wixell, Lillian Watson, John Pritchard director,
Royal Opera House Covent Garden, 1977.
21. Gounod, Faust, Jerry Hadley, Cecilia Gasdia, Samuel Ramey, Susanne
Mentzer, Alexandru Agache, Brigitte Fassbaender, Carlo Rizzi director,
Welsh National Opera, 1994.
22. Puccini, La Boheme, can�t figure out which one I have�
-Aaron
Aaron
> first example does not scan rhythmically and harmonically. The ornament
> "3234" (example1) is a note short because you are mistaking the note 3
> as being on the beat, rather than being a grace note. Thus, it's four
> 1/16th notes on beat 4, preceded by a grace note: b-flat (grace), a, g,
> a, b-flat. At this point in the harmony, I hear b-flat to be a grace,
> belonging to the previous beat, even if it is slightly late or sounds
> like it is on the fourth beat. Knowing the style and harmonic context ,
> my ear assumes this pattern and fills (or back fills) in the blanks. So,
> I'm not so bothered by the minor "sloppitura" or "smearsando." The
> sloppier renderings may be less accurate, but they do preserve the
> harmonic and melodic gesture. BTW, the correct pattern is
>
> 4/3234|55/55/55/55|1 (/ = beat divider, | = bar line)
>
> If you reduce the ornaments to their harmonic and melodic identities,
> the simplified line is thus "3 5 1," (Tonic triad) (The next pattern in
> the sequence outlines the submediant, and so on.)
>
> If you'd had some staff paper handy and had written this out, you might
> very well have figured it out on your own.
>
> The Other Mickey
Probably. I didn't put as much effort into the problem as I would have
if I were dealing with a lesser opponent =D
-Aaron
Aaron
>> OK, I know this is going to be a lot of work for you, and I really
>> appreciate it. Thinking back on our discussions, it looks like I have
>> some very good versions. Some were bought for me by dear mom, guess
>> she knows her singers!
>>
>> I know you want privacy, but will you tell me if you sang in any of
>> the ones I have? It would be cool to have a connection like that. Of
>> course, if you are "Wolfgang Windgassen" I could understand your not
>> wanting me to figure that out...lol
>
> Other than his being dead for 35 years, I wonder why?
I don't know...maybe I hate alliteration?
I'm sure we both see the pink elephant so I'll leave it at that.
> He was hardly the only German musician with "political problems."
That was certainly not what had me chuckling...
> I didn't sing with him,
> either, though one of my voice teachers did frequently.
>
>> I just mentioned Studer, and I knew I had her as Queen of the Night,
>> but couldn't find it on youtube. She was good, I thought.
>>
>> I included Handel's Messiah, because I love it...and note that the
>> libretto for Handel's Semele was written by a former music professor
>> of mine at MIT, Ellen T. Harris. She has written more but I didn't
>> check all of my collection.
>>
>> Here it is!
>
> I'll take a look at it and comment later. I've got a bunch of them, but
> I'll be blunt, I moved about 10 years ago and still haven't unpacked the
> vinyl, so don't expect a similar list from me.
Good lord no, I bet your list is more like 100, based on some of the
comments you've made in posts here (like 3 Rosenkavaliers...)
As this took me almost 40 minutes, I would hate to think of you spending
some three and a half hours posting yours!
I already know yours is bigger than mine, anyway...
> Pretty decent collection.
Thank you! As you can see, though you probably already knew that, I do
love opera.
> Rather than spending much time chewing over
> these, let me see what I might recommend to fill in some of the holes,
> like the lack of "Rigoletto" "Parsifal" "Meistersinger" and some other
> stables of the standard operatic diet. There's a lot of good opera video
> out there and the sound on the bluray discs is pretty damned good (e.g.,
> 5.1 24bit/96kHz LPCM).
Rosenkavalier, too, of course...
I was hoping you would do that as well, and possibly more importantly
than better versions, except for a few counterexamples. Just looking at
my list I could tell where I had a few bad eggs.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
fmomoon
> fmomoon wrote:
>> Ah, thank you for that treat! I did "The Magic Flute" (Papagena, here)
>> while in college and one of my favorite moments was sitting backstage and
>> listening to our Tamino sing this. *sigh*
>
> You're welcome. And thanks to Mickey for waking me up to Wunderlich =D
>
> Glad you're a Verdi/Puccini girl, like me. Err, I mean...you know what I
> mean.
>
> -Aaron
Yeah, I understand what you mean. :)
--
Moni