Adam Lambert's "chops" and range
Aaron
watching him more closely last night, and it seemed to me that his
high notes were, perhaps in true rocker style, more a matter of
forcing and contorting his instrument than part of what would be
considered his actual range.
It was hard to say, because singing with one's tongue out is
definitely in the style of the song he sang this week, but it seemed
to me that the higher he had to sing, the more he pushed out his
tongue. It was almost as if a deaf person could measure the note he
was hitting by how distended he made his mouth and tongue, if that
deaf person but knew the proper translation from length to notes.
I know a lot of rockers throughout the decades have had ranges like
Adam's, or vice versa I suppose, and I knew it was a forcing that
would not be done in classical music, that is hard on the voice, but
I've not looked at it as closely as I have with Adam, or noticed the
"trick" behind it as much as I think I did with him.
Of course, in the classical realm (or semi-classical) you have Sarah
Brightman and Joan Sutherland, among others, but they do not force it
like he seems to. And, back when I was training I had this one time
where I was reaching crazy high notes singing a scale exercise,
without thinking about it (my teacher just kept going)...but again
that wasn't forced. In fact it was effortless, which was the really
strange part...
And speaking of tricks, I want to hear Adam sing something more
serious, because to me it all felt gimmicky this week, which is why I
said before that I could really do without him in this competition and
it wouldn't bother me.
So what do YOU think of Adam? Mickey or anyone...
-Aaron
Peach
I would love to hear Mickey's opinion.... because the one thing I
can't get over is just how effortless it seems *to me.* IOW, I don't
agree with you in the "forced" description. He has no trouble
whatsoever reaching those notes...he looks like he could juggle and
read a book while singing and still manage it, as easy as breathing.
Peach
Aaron
Depends on which notes you are considering "high". Watch him again,
though, on the very highest ones...he even seems to tense his whole
body up, but then again it could just be an affectation for the style
of music.
-Aaron
silos onit
tino
2007 C.C.Champ + B.R. Runner-Up -Combined B.R.C.C. Champ-; Idol God
The Big P.O.P. theory.
---O Primordial Ontological Perturbation O--
Tootsie Pop = Correct model of Universe.
Mickey
> Mickey, I'd love to hear your opinion on this in particular. I was
> watching him more closely last night, and it seemed to me that his
> high notes were, perhaps in true rocker style, more a matter of
> forcing and contorting his instrument than part of what would be
> considered his actual range.
All repeatable and stable vocal techniques are a compromise. The core of
Western musical vocalism has been for the last several hundred years
(and particularly for men) about a uniform timbre (or the illusion of
it) over a range of around 2 octaves (slightly more for women). This
technical approach is probably the result of collision of several vocal
cultures in the late Renaissance, most importantly the Italianate and
the Cantorial. The voice can be extended in range (pitch) but at the
expense of an even timbre.
For an example of great cantorial singing, here's a clip from Gershon
Sirota. Caruso, roughly a contemporary, was credited with counting
himself lucky that Sirota chose to be a cantor rather than going into opera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-iXVfMZ-M
For something more recent from another chazzan. Warning, melismaphobes
should avoid this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URs24-2DJk8&feature=related
> It was hard to say, because singing with one's tongue out is
> definitely in the style of the song he sang this week, but it seemed
> to me that the higher he had to sing, the more he pushed out his
> tongue. It was almost as if a deaf person could measure the note he
> was hitting by how distended he made his mouth and tongue, if that
> deaf person but knew the proper translation from length to notes.
Sticking one's tongue out does have a technical payoff, but the payoff
is at the expense of vocal color (some would say beauty) which is why
you never Placido Domingo doing it. (Pardon me if I don't explain more
fully, but I really want to stick the main thrust of your question.)
> I know a lot of rockers throughout the decades have had ranges like
> Adam's, or vice versa I suppose, and I knew it was a forcing that
> would not be done in classical music, that is hard on the voice, but
> I've not looked at it as closely as I have with Adam, or noticed the
> "trick" behind it as much as I think I did with him.
If done correctly, it is not forcing. It is simply a technique which
extend the upper register in a way not consonant with classical music
aesthetics.
> Of course, in the classical realm (or semi-classical) you have Sarah
> Brightman and Joan Sutherland, among others, but they do not force it
> like he seems to.
Putting those two ladies together in the same sentence appalls me. Again
you assume he is forcing. I don't know that he is. That he's been doing
for some time, suggests he is not.
> And, back when I was training I had this one time
> where I was reaching crazy high notes singing a scale exercise,
> without thinking about it (my teacher just kept going)...but again
> that wasn't forced. In fact it was effortless, which was the really
> strange part...
>
> And speaking of tricks, I want to hear Adam sing something more
> serious, because to me it all felt gimmicky this week, which is why I
> said before that I could really do without him in this competition and
> it wouldn't bother me.
>
> So what do YOU think of Adam? Mickey or anyone...
My main gripe with Adam is the insincerity of his performances. It's a
strong voice, on a healthy body, with a technique that allows him to do
what he wants. I question what he wants. As for the beauty or aesthetic
of his voice, he wouldn't be the first person I'd call to sing Tamino.
The Other Mickey
Aaron
wrote:
Thanks for the reply! So, to summarize, you are saying that you
wouldn't properly call it "forcing", but that perhaps I did correctly
attribute his tongue usage to his extended range? But that's ok, since
we're not watching an opera competition?
-Aaron
Peach
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steven Tyler does the same thing with his tongue... I've tried it, and
it doesn't work for me. ;-) (Granted, Tyler has had throat surgery,
but I think that damage was from *before* training, not after.)
Peach
aaron...@gmail.com
I know...that's why I kept acknowledging that it could be acceptable
due to the jondra he was singing. But it's a bit...grotesque. lol
;P~
See?
-Aaron
Mickey
It's attributable to the way in which he is extending his range, i.e.,
there are other ways which do not include sticking out one's tongue.
Post puberty male altos and sopranos (counter-tenors) can sing as high
or higher than Adam, but not with the same timbre and probably not with
the same volume. These three clips are of endocrinological castrato Radu
Marian (adult, but never went through puberty), counter-tenor Philippe
Jaroussky, and female singers Suzie LeBlanc and Cecilia Bartoli all
singing the same Handel aria. (Listening to Radu Marian is like
listening to history, back to the day when the stars of the opera world
were the castrati.) It shouldn't be too hard to notice the differences,
though all are quite wonderful, each in his or her own way. It should
also be obvious how their approach to the upper voice is different from
Adams. Please enjoy. These are worth hearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyG-EHOazM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRHJXDxQJL4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peJxkzPSQFg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiq0meAPOgs
The Other Mickey
aaron...@gmail.com
I will, and I listened to your other clips as well! I always
appreciate when you post them.
But counter-tenors...aren't they using falsetto? I can generate a
great deal of power, over a large range that descends well into my
"normal" range, with my falsetto. It would be hard for the average
listener to know I was using falsetto, unless I sing "Der Holle Rache"
or the like... Admittedly, it took a lot of practice, but... I've
always considered falsetto "cheating".
Back to the point, is a counter-tenor truly using "full voice"?
-Aaron
Bob Rudd
6d755f...@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, aaro...@msn.com says...
>
> So what do YOU think of Adam? Mickey or anyone...
>
He has, what we discovering early on, interesting demographics.
--
I hope we can all be good neighbors online!
Bob Rudd
@webtv.net says...
> Subject: Re: Adam Lambert's "chops" and range
> From: silos onit <silo...@webtv.net>
>
> Newsgroups: alt.tv.american-idol
> His DNA should be checked for other-worldlines. (-%
>
> tino
>
> 2007 C.C.Champ + B.R. Runner-Up -Combined B.R.C.C. Champ-; Idol God
>
>
You're not winning the CC this year, tino.
Tin@
He'd be great as a lead singer of a rock band, I'd like to see him
sing without going to the extremes. He has a great voice, but it just
seems too much too much of the time.
Mickey
Depending on whose definition one uses, Adam is using falsetto (larynx
in the juvenile position) and countertenors are singing in head voice
(low larynx). Conversely, countertenors are often called falsettists.
The real question is whether the larynx is allowed to move up or stays
down. (I suspect when Adam sticks out his tongue, his larynx rises along
with it, but short of observing him close up, it's only a guess.)
> I can generate a
> great deal of power, over a large range that descends well into my
> "normal" range, with my falsetto. It would be hard for the average
> listener to know I was using falsetto, unless I sing "Der Holle Rache"
> or the like... Admittedly, it took a lot of practice, but... I've
> always considered falsetto "cheating".
It isn't unless you're singing "Nessun Dorma" and sing the money notes
in pure head voice (yet another somewhat vague term).
> Back to the point, is a counter-tenor truly using "full voice"?
In the sense I believe you are using it, no, but the term is hardly
rigorous or even meaningful. (The following is horribly over
simplified.) The vocal folds are marvelously flexible in their
operation. They can change thickness and tension in myriad combinations,
changing both pitch and timbre in the process. The thicker the fold, the
more tension is necessary to tune it to a particular pitch, the converse
is also true. For example, to crescendo, (along with increasing breath
pressure) the folds must thicken in conjunction with the muscles
tensioning the folds must pull them more taut (and about a half a dozen
other things). As long as the larynx is at a stable low position, there
is no fundamental difference between full voice or head voice other than
how thick the vocal folds are.
Because there are real limits to what the voice can do, tenors and
countertenors optimize their production (fine tune their technique) to
produce the most even timbre (and potential range of timbre) over their
characteristic tessitura (ok, tessiture). In general, countertenors sing
with a "thinner" vocal fold under less tension than tenors. (As I
warned, this was shamefully simplified, but I think you might get the idea.)
The Other Mickey
DYZN
news:CtZpl.8281$%54....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:
> Post puberty male altos and sopranos (counter-tenors)
Aren't male sopranos different from counter-tenors? Michael Maniaci is
said to be only true male soprano -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsRptA12W9
You might want to listen to Von Smith's recording of Christina Aguilera's
song"Walk Away", he hit some seriously high note there. It might be
difficult to find the song though because he had taken all his songs down
from his website. He might be an interesting one to listen to when he
isn't screaming.
DYZN
news:OOmdnT1Ez9JpDTXU...@pipex.net:
> Mickey <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote in
> news:CtZpl.8281$%54....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:
>
>
>
>> Post puberty male altos and sopranos (counter-tenors)
>
> Aren't male sopranos different from counter-tenors? Michael Maniaci
> is said to be only true male soprano -
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsRptA12W9
Bad link, this is the correct one -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsRptA12W9E
silos onit
>You're not winning the CC this year, tino.
Looking to continue my status as ATAI's Wildest Swinger.
CC: From 1st to 2nd to last combined with 2nd in BR to 27th.
Maybe i should put that in my sig. (-%
tino
2007 C.C.Champ + B.R. Runner-Up -Combined B.R.C.C. Champ-; Idol God
Pidge
I think he has a cute tongue.
*shrug*
-------------
To send email, replace "anti.spam" with "xplornet"
Proud Lambert Fan
Mickey
> DYZN <DY...@false.address.com> wrote in
> news:OOmdnT1Ez9JpDTXU...@pipex.net:
>
>> Mickey <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote in
>> news:CtZpl.8281$%54....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Post puberty male altos and sopranos (counter-tenors)
>> Aren't male sopranos different from counter-tenors?
Not really, except that usually one refers to adult males, who have gone
through puberty and who sing treble literature, as counter-tenors. As I
was trying to get across to Aaron, the labels are thrown around pretty
loosely.
> Michael Maniaci
>> is said to be only true male soprano -
By the putz doing the commentary? He's trying to make some unsupportable
and frankly pretty silly claims about the vocal culture in which Maniaci
was raised. Ultimately, it doesn't matter a whole lot. Some people, not
many admittedly, know how to sing with no instruction, with no immersion
in some specific flavor of vocal culture. How do you define them? The
ultimate answer is by what literature the singer can handle and what
does he sound like doing it. My personal impression of Maniaci is that
he sounds like any number of counter-tenors I've heard who can sing the
higher treble parts. As for his speaking voice, it's pitch lowered than
my HS algebra teacher's. That is, he sounds male. Radu Marian, on the
other hand, does not.
Did you listen to the Radu Marian link I supplied. He is male and a soprano.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyG-EHOazM&feature=related
The following link lists a dozen male sopranos and doesn't account for
all the immature males singing soprano music.
http://uk.geocities.com/world_of_the_castrati/MaleSopranosopranista5.htm
Although doing literature now normally done by "coloratura mezzos", I
think Mac Emanuel Cencic is a much more impressive singer than Maniaci.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMFeLzCjd4M&feature=related
The Other Mickey
intang...@yahoo.com
I doubt he could scream up and down the scales
DYZN
news:O01ql.12968$8_3....@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com:
Radu Marian sounds exactly like a woman.
I have no idea if the distinction is valid, but perhaps some people might
be trying to differentiate between a counter-tenor and a male soprano. A
counter-tenor might sing in a falsetto, but a male soprano like Michael
Maniaci doesn't -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2liGFJFuGk
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyG-EHOazM&feature=related
>
> The following link lists a dozen male sopranos and doesn't account for
> all the immature males singing soprano music.
>
> http://uk.geocities.com/world_of_the_castrati/MaleSopranosopranista5.ht
> m
>
> Although doing literature now normally done by "coloratura mezzos", I
> think Mac Emanuel Cencic is a much more impressive singer than
> Maniaci.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMFeLzCjd4M&feature=related
It's personal taste I suppose, but I find them annoying after a while. I
do however like the singing in Philip Glass' Akhnaten -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW_ZUC5uqqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfFMdllASbM
>
>
> The Other Mickey
fmomoon
"Mickey" <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote in message
news:KOYpl.7834$jZ1....@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...
Mickey, what a joy it is to read and listen to these amazing (and rather
freakish) voices. Thank you for educating me.
--
Moni
Mickey
As falsetto was defined when I got my degrees, countertenors do not sing
in falsetto, which was defined by a juvenile larynx position, i.e.,
elevated. Again, the terms have been so loosely used by laymen that they
don't mean much anymore. Singers who sing in the Western operatic
tradition, which includes the castrati like Farinelli (mention on
Maniaci clip), sing with a stable, low larynx. Countertenors, whether
singing renaissance church music, early opera, or Happy Birthday, sing
with a stable, low larynx. End of story.
You seem to have bought into the marketing hype about this guy. Maniaci
is simply a male possessed of a high, light voice who has trained to
singing in the soprano range. He's okay, maybe even good, but he sounds
like any number of countertenors I've heard over the years. He can call
himself a male soprano, a Nash Rambler, or the Grand Duchess Anastasia,
but he is far from the singular talent you seem to think he is.
The Other Mickey
regga
be taken seriously sometimes. He's unquestionably talented but he'd fare
better with a rawer approach..plus his choreography at times looks gay to
me, which is not a problem except it doesn't fit the image he is attempting
to convey.
"Aaron" <aaro...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ff6660fc-1d6b-4c66...@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
azurespirit
"fmomoon" <fmo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:F5ydnZjjOLxEIzXU...@giganews.com...
I think Adam Chops are on the menu next week on Hell's Kitchen.
regga
dinner in between actual performances..so i'm putting across what i thought
as a typical voter without all the background info as i saw it..i loved
allison I...wow, right from the core
"zob" <zob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:o70iq4tks44a5ks5d...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:17:50 -0800, "regga" <regg...@olypen.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I agree, some of Adam's higher ranges seem a bit forced & too theatrical
>>to
>>be taken seriously sometimes. He's unquestionably talented but he'd fare
>>better with a rawer approach..plus his choreography at times looks gay to
>>me, which is not a problem except it doesn't fit the image he is
>>attempting
>>to convey.
>
>
> I think it's obvious that he chose that song obviously to show off his
> vocal range and ability, and he did it in spades. (When he first
> started singing "Satisfaction," I said, "is he nuts?" to the lady I
> was watching with. Then as he went on I realized he knew exactly what
> he was doing.). I don't believe that he has an image of himself as a
> rock singer; in fact, I suspect that most of what we'll hear from him
> in the future will be diva type ballads.
>
> He's a smart player; he did exactly what he had to do to get through
> to the top 12: shock and awe.
Larc
| On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:17:50 -0800, "regga" <regg...@olypen.com>
| wrote:
|
| >I agree, some of Adam's higher ranges seem a bit forced & too theatrical to
| >be taken seriously sometimes. He's unquestionably talented but he'd fare
| >better with a rawer approach..plus his choreography at times looks gay to
| >me, which is not a problem except it doesn't fit the image he is attempting
| >to convey.
|
|
| Don't forget that he's a musical theater performer, not a rock singer.
| I think it's obvious that he chose that song obviously to show off his
| vocal range and ability, and he did it in spades. (When he first
| started singing "Satisfaction," I said, "is he nuts?" to the lady I
| was watching with. Then as he went on I realized he knew exactly what
| he was doing.). I don't believe that he has an image of himself as a
| rock singer; in fact, I suspect that most of what we'll hear from him
| in the future will be diva type ballads.
|
| He's a smart player; he did exactly what he had to do to get through
| to the top 12: shock and awe.
Adam pretty much said that in a radio interview in LA. He also said people
shouldn't expect that level of activity from him each performance night since he
won't always be cranking it up to "120%."
My guess is he'll manage to fit very nicely into whatever mode each song he's
singing calls for.
Larc
Mickey
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:20:36 -0800, Mickey
> <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> For something more recent from another chazzan. Warning, melismaphobes
>> should avoid this clip.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URs24-2DJk8&feature=related
>
> the video..
But you've got to admit he's one hell of singer. (I got recordings of a
number of recording of cantors made from around 1915-35 and the vocal
skills displayed are incredible.)
The Other Mickey
topcat
My old accountants name was Helfgot. I doubt he could sing like this guy.
TC
Mickey
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:20:36 -0800, Mickey
> <mickey_a...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> strong voice, on a healthy body, with a technique that allows him to do
>> what he wants.
>
> term other than "insincerity;" I think of it more as
> "self-indulgence." I'm a big fan of his singing already, but oddly
> not a fan of his performances. I think this is kind of what you're
> alluding to also. His over-emoting and leering sideways at the camera
> come across as self-indulgent. There's a point where self-confidence
> has to be counterbalanced with at least a modicum of humility.
I don't think it's about self-indulgence but rather about honesty, what
actors call "being in the moment." The emotions which motivate his
performances have almost everything to do with Adam and almost nothing
to do with the songs. That's what I mean by sincerity or honesty. He may
be utterly humble and doing his best (as he understands his job) for the
audience, but he doesn't seem to be able to connect with the material in
a way that makes the performance human, real, honest, communicative,
personal, and deep (rather than shallow). The performances ring hollow.
The Other Mickey
TheChris
6d755f...@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> Mickey, I'd love to hear your opinion on this in particular. I was
> watching him more closely last night, and it seemed to me that his
> high notes were, perhaps in true rocker style, more a matter of
> forcing and contorting his instrument than part of what would be
> considered his actual range.
>
> It was hard to say, because singing with one's tongue out is
> definitely in the style of the song he sang this week, but it seemed
> to me that the higher he had to sing, the more he pushed out his
> tongue. It was almost as if a deaf person could measure the note he
> was hitting by how distended he made his mouth and tongue, if that
> deaf person but knew the proper translation from length to notes.
>
> I know a lot of rockers throughout the decades have had ranges like
> Adam's, or vice versa I suppose, and I knew it was a forcing that
> would not be done in classical music, that is hard on the voice, but
> I've not looked at it as closely as I have with Adam, or noticed the
> "trick" behind it as much as I think I did with him.
>
> Of course, in the classical realm (or semi-classical) you have Sarah
> Brightman and Joan Sutherland, among others, but they do not force it
> like he seems to. And, back when I was training I had this one time
> where I was reaching crazy high notes singing a scale exercise,
> without thinking about it (my teacher just kept going)...but again
> that wasn't forced. In fact it was effortless, which was the really
> strange part...
>
> And speaking of tricks, I want to hear Adam sing something more
> serious, because to me it all felt gimmicky this week, which is why I
> said before that I could really do without him in this competition and
> it wouldn't bother me.
>
> So what do YOU think of Adam? Mickey or anyone...
>
> -Aaron
>
He is the textbook example of a great pop star/singer.. The total
package... He looks great, sings great, and has a good personality..
His voice is a bit high for me, but, trust me... If something is out of
your range, no number of face contortions will make it happen...
tzigaane
Like perhaps his approach is "Here's my amazing voice singing this song.
And now here's my amazing voice singing this other song. Would you
like to hear my amazing voice sing an entirely different song?", rather
than "Let me express the depth of emotion that lies in this song and
make you feel as you have never felt before." But in all fairness to
him, all we've really seen him perform is "Satisfaction" in which I
think he can be forgiven a leering preening performance, and Believe,
which (I'm trying to remember back) might have seemed more heartfelt.
It will, of course, be interesting to see where he goes from here.
tzigaane
fmomoon
"azurespirit" <gkn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:49a8f881$1...@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>> freakish) voices. Thank you for educating me.
>> --
>> Moni
>
> I think Adam Chops are on the menu next week on Hell's Kitchen.
I wonder what spices they'll use?
--
Moni
jewahe
Fairy Dust?
--
JWH
fmomoon
"tzigaane" <tzig...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ibydnQe_cvQx9DTU...@earthlink.com...
did with the little clip that TC posted. He knows what he needs to do.
I've heard thousands of people sing in a controlled fashion the
"Disney-esque" music. I'm glad he can do that. But that "something
different" is what I am looking for. I know the guy can sing. My
assumption (never correct, of course) is that by this point they *all*
should be able to sing. I enjoy his showmanship. Is it over-theatrical?
Sure, but that doesn't bother me. One other singer Adam reminds me of:
Robbie Williams. Obviously, I don't mind over the top as long as it is done
well. The season is long but he hasn't misstepped yet.
--
Moni
fmomoon
"SLGreg" <SLG...@madeitup.com> wrote in message
news:p1riq49seiseg03i8...@4ax.com...
>
> -greg
Cured or not?
--
Moni
karenftx
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:24:06 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
> >x-no-archive: yes
>
> >Tin@ wrote:
>
> >> He'd be great as a lead singer of a rock band, I'd like to see him
> >> sing without going to the extremes. He has a great voice, but it just
> >> seems too much too much of the time.
>
> >I agree with your latter point, but I'm not sure he's a rocker at all.
> >Time will tell, I guess.
>
> >My sense of him as of now is that he's a theatrical performer playing
> >the role of rocker, which isn't surprising for him to do since theater
> >is his training and background.
>
> >He's talented, but I just get most strongly the sense he's role playing.
>
> >Susan
>
> It will be very telling what he does with his songs on theme nights.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
He could very well be Constantine part duex.
Aaron
wrote:
> aarons12...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Feb 27, 5:06 pm, Mickey <mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Aaron wrote:
> >>> On Feb 27, 4:20 pm, Mickey <mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Aaron wrote:
> >>>>> Mickey, I'd love to hear your opinion on this in particular. I was
> >>>>> watching him more closely last night, and it seemed to me that his
> >>>>> high notes were, perhaps in true rocker style, more a matter of
> >>>>> forcing and contorting his instrument than part of what would be
> >>>>> considered his actual range.
> >>>> Western musical vocalism has been for the last several hundred years
> >>>> (and particularly for men) about a uniform timbre (or the illusion of
> >>>> it) over a range of around 2 octaves (slightly more for women). This
> >>>> technical approach is probably the result of collision of several vocal
> >>>> cultures in the late Renaissance, most importantly the Italianate and
> >>>> the Cantorial. The voice can be extended in range (pitch) but at the
> >>>> expense of an even timbre.
> >>>> For an example of great cantorial singing, here's a clip from Gershon
> >>>> Sirota. Caruso, roughly a contemporary, was credited with counting
> >>>> himself lucky that Sirota chose to be a cantor rather than going into opera.
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-iXVfMZ-M
> >>>> should avoid this clip.
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URs24-2DJk8&feature=related
> >>>>> definitely in the style of the song he sang this week, but it seemed
> >>>>> to me that the higher he had to sing, the more he pushed out his
> >>>>> tongue. It was almost as if a deaf person could measure the note he
> >>>>> was hitting by how distended he made his mouth and tongue, if that
> >>>>> deaf person but knew the proper translation from length to notes.
> >>>> is at the expense of vocal color (some would say beauty) which is why
> >>>> you never Placido Domingo doing it. (Pardon me if I don't explain more
> >>>> fully, but I really want to stick the main thrust of your question.)
> >>>>> Adam's, or vice versa I suppose, and I knew it was a forcing that
> >>>>> would not be done in classical music, that is hard on the voice, but
> >>>>> I've not looked at it as closely as I have with Adam, or noticed the
> >>>>> "trick" behind it as much as I think I did with him.
> >>>> extend the upper register in a way not consonant with classical music
> >>>> aesthetics.
> >>>>> Brightman and Joan Sutherland, among others, but they do not force it
> >>>>> like he seems to.
> >>>> you assume he is forcing. I don't know that he is. That he's been doing
> >>>> for some time, suggests he is not.
> >>>>> where I was reaching crazy high notes singing a scale exercise,
> >>>>> without thinking about it (my teacher just kept going)...but again
> >>>>> that wasn't forced. In fact it was effortless, which was the really
> >>>>> strange part...
> >>>>> And speaking of tricks, I want to hear Adam sing something more
> >>>>> serious, because to me it all felt gimmicky this week, which is why I
> >>>>> said before that I could really do without him in this competition and
> >>>>> it wouldn't bother me.
> >>>>> So what do YOU think of Adam? Mickey or anyone...
> >>>> strong voice, on a healthy body, with a technique that allows him to do
> >>>> of his voice, he wouldn't be the first person I'd call to sing Tamino.
> >>>> The Other Mickey
> >>> wouldn't properly call it "forcing", but that perhaps I did correctly
> >>> attribute his tongue usage to his extended range? But that's ok, since
> >>> we're not watching an opera competition?
> >> It's attributable to the way in which he is extending his range, i.e.,
> >> there are other ways which do not include sticking out one's tongue.
> >> Post puberty male altos and sopranos (counter-tenors) can sing as high
> >> or higher than Adam, but not with the same timbre and probably not with
> >> the same volume. These three clips are of endocrinological castrato Radu
> >> Marian (adult, but never went through puberty), counter-tenor Philippe
> >> Jaroussky, and female singers Suzie LeBlanc and Cecilia Bartoli all
> >> singing the same Handel aria. (Listening to Radu Marian is like
> >> listening to history, back to the day when the stars of the opera world
> >> were the castrati.) It shouldn't be too hard to notice the differences,
> >> though all are quite wonderful, each in his or her own way. It should
> >> also be obvious how their approach to the upper voice is different from
> >> Adams. Please enjoy. These are worth hearing.
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyG-EHOazM&feature=relatedhttp://www....
>
> >> The Other Mickey
>
> > I will, and I listened to your other clips as well! I always
> > appreciate when you post them.
>
> > But counter-tenors...aren't they using falsetto?
>
> Depending on whose definition one uses, Adam is using falsetto (larynx
> in the juvenile position) and countertenors are singing in head voice
> (low larynx). Conversely, countertenors are often called falsettists.
> The real question is whether the larynx is allowed to move up or stays
> down. (I suspect when Adam sticks out his tongue, his larynx rises along
> with it, but short of observing him close up, it's only a guess.)
>
> > I can generate a
> > great deal of power, over a large range that descends well into my
> > "normal" range, with my falsetto. It would be hard for the average
> > listener to know I was using falsetto, unless I sing "Der Holle Rache"
> > or the like... Admittedly, it took a lot of practice, but... I've
> > always considered falsetto "cheating".
>
> It isn't unless you're singing "Nessun Dorma" and sing the money notes
> in pure head voice (yet another somewhat vague term).
>
> > Back to the point, is a counter-tenor truly using "full voice"?
>
> In the sense I believe you are using it, no, but the term is hardly
> rigorous or even meaningful. (The following is horribly over
> simplified.) The vocal folds are marvelously flexible in their
> operation. They can change thickness and tension in myriad combinations,
> changing both pitch and timbre in the process. The thicker the fold, the
> more tension is necessary to tune it to a particular pitch, the converse
> is also true. For example, to crescendo, (along with increasing breath
> pressure) the folds must thicken in conjunction with the muscles
> tensioning the folds must pull them more taut (and about a half a dozen
> other things). As long as the larynx is at a stable low position, there
> is no fundamental difference between full voice or head voice other than
> how thick the vocal folds are.
>
> Because there are real limits to what the voice can do, tenors and
> countertenors optimize their production (fine tune their technique) to
> produce the most even timbre (and potential range of timbre) over their
> characteristic tessitura (ok, tessiture). In general, countertenors sing
> with a "thinner" vocal fold under less tension than tenors. (As I
> warned, this was shamefully simplified, but I think you might get the idea.)
>
> The Other Mickey
I do get the idea, and I can see there is a whole volume of
information that you left out for simplicity's sake. I can see that
asking if this person or that is using "head voice/falsetto" or "full
voice" is a vague question with an extremely complicated answer.
I wonder, now, whether my singing up into the soprano range is with my
larynx in the juvenile position, or the low position. I'm sure you
could tell me if you saw and heard me, but is there a way I can find
out on my own?
-Aaron
Mickey
I've seen some of his youtube stuff, too. I give him the benefit of the
doubt and won't accuse him of doing nothing more than showing off. What
I'm saying is that he does not feel the music, doesn't emotionally
connect to the lyric, music, and the moment. He seems fixated on
execution to the near exclusion of anything else. This was my impression
of his audition, clips I've heard elsewhere, and this week. I would not
mind if he got better.
The Other Mickey
Mickey
Sure, easy as pi, but far less transcendental. First find the pointy bit
on the front of your Adam's apple (thyroid cartilage). You now have a
good indicator of larynx position. At rest, the point should be at about
the midpoint in your neck. Now, stand up and place the tip of a finger
lightly on your Adam's apple, just enough to note where it is but not
enough to keep it from moving. Take a deep breath. If you do that
correctly, your larynx will probably descend to an even lower position.
Sing a note at a comfortable pitch. If you do this correctly, the larynx
will stay where it was after you took the breath. Exhale, inhale, and
begin an upward scale from the previous note. Don't worry if your voice
"breaks." If the larynx climbs (eventually) with pitch, your extreme
upper register is probably falsetto. As a final check, sing in what you
call your soprano register and note whether the larynx is high or near
where it was when you took that first standing breath. If it is high,
you are singing in falsetto. If it is low, you are singing in head voice.
The Other Mickey
Tim Hall
wrote:
>I agree, some of Adam's higher ranges seem a bit forced & too theatrical to
>be taken seriously sometimes. He's unquestionably talented but he'd fare
>better with a rawer approach..plus his choreography at times looks gay to
>me, which is not a problem except it doesn't fit the image he is attempting
>to convey.
Hmm, well if he's trying to project a straight image, he's going to be
even less successful than Clay.
Tim Hall
He's an interesting cat for sure. He kind of dresses and acts like
he's some kind of wannabe, but there's no denying he's got talent. I
think he will make AI much more interesting this season than it would
have been without him.
DYZN
news:senjq4ltkc20t3bvc...@4ax.com:
Why would you even think that he'd be worry about people thinking he might
be gay? Why would anyone think that he is attempting to convey a straight
image? As if there is such a thing as a standard gay image nowadays.
This is him, no doubt just playing a role, and he sure doesn't look worried
about doing it -
brenda
> In article <7321-49A85634-...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net>, silos711
> @webtv.net says...
>
> > Subject: Re: Adam Lambert's "chops" and range
> > From: silos onit <silos...@webtv.net>
>
> > Newsgroups: alt.tv.american-idol
> > His DNA should be checked for other-worldlines. (-%
>
> > tino
>
> > 2007 C.C.Champ + B.R. Runner-Up -Combined B.R.C.C. Champ-; Idol God
>
> You're not winning the CC this year, tino.
> --
> I hope we can all be good neighbors online!
Please don't compare adam to Steven tyler.That upset me the other
night.No way does he even compare to tyler.
fmomoon
"DYZN" <DY...@false.address.com> wrote in message
news:f9ednbx9rNiTYDTU...@pipex.net...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvwcJUhIa0U
--
Moni
Pidge
>On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:38:52 -0800, "fmomoon" <fmo...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>Wow! Infreakingcredible.
Yet another side -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_dPnRzbRQ
-------------
To send email, replace "anti.spam" with "xplornet"
Proud Lambert Fan
Tin@
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 01:40:49 -0500, zob <zob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >wrote:
>
> >>"DYZN" <D...@false.address.com> wrote in message
> >>news:f9ednbx9rNiTYDTU...@pipex.net...
> >>> Tim Hall <ihates...@soimnottelling.com> wrote in
> >>>news:senjq4ltkc20t3bvc...@4ax.com:
>
> >>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:17:50 -0800, "regga" <regga...@olypen.com>
> >>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>I agree, some of Adam's higher ranges seem a bit forced & too
> >>>>>theatrical to be taken seriously sometimes. He's unquestionably
> >>>>>talented but he'd fare better with a rawer approach..plus his
> >>>>>choreography at times looks gay to me, which is not a problem except
> >>>>>it doesn't fit the image he is attempting to convey.
>
> >>>> Hmm, well if he's trying to project a straight image, he's going to be
> >>>> even less successful than Clay.
>
> >>> Why would you even think that he'd be worry about people thinking he might
> >>> be gay? Why would anyone think that he is attempting to convey a straight
> >>> image? As if there is such a thing as a standard gay image nowadays.
>
> >>> This is him, no doubt just playing a role, and he sure doesn't look
> >>> worried
> >>> about doing it -
>
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx90vjBkv8g
>
> >>For those who don't think he can calm down...
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvwcJUhIa0U
>
> >Wow! Infreakingcredible.
>
> Yet another side -
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_dPnRzbRQ
So that's what he looks like when he's normal.
>
> -------------
> To send email, replace "anti.spam" with "xplornet"
>
> Proud Lambert Fan- Hide quoted text -
azurespirit
I think just a bit of mint jelly to tone it down.
fmomoon
"zob" <zob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vdbkq4179qmta2vh3...@4ax.com...
The music wasn't as challenging as some of the stuff I've seen him attack,
but it does show that he can take direction and focus that energy. The
straight, unembellished voice is good.
--
Moni
fmomoon
"Pidge" <pi...@anti.spam.com> wrote in message
news:p1dkq4hh9c71ra9i5...@4ax.com...
--
Moni
fmomoon
> also. Am I mistaken, or did they sing the opposite parts that a
> man/woman usually do on "My Prayer?"
They did. Bocelli sings it in Italian and the young lady in this clip sang
it in Hebrew.
--
Moni
Bob Rudd
@m24g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, loveomah...@aol.com says...
Please check the headers, Brenda, it isn't me.
tzigaane
>
> For those who don't think he can calm down...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvwcJUhIa0U
He does have an amazing voice. Some of the most impressive singers out
there are Broadway singers. But how does this translate to American
Idol? So far Adam has cast himself in the role of rock star and says he
wants to do some Led Zeppelin (which I'm more than certain he will do
brilliantly if given the opportunity), but is that who he is? Or is that
just a role he's playing for the show? And if he wins, what do they do
with him then? What does *he* want to be? The AI machine has a knack for
watering down great voices, and I'm thinking of Katharine McPhee when I
say that. They tried to stuff her into the pop pigeon hole which was a
total waste of her voice, and I see, so far, a similar thing happening
with David Archuleta. Now if that's what they aspired to vocally then
OK, but Adam doesn't strike me as someone who would be content with
that; and what a waste of an amazing voice that would be! I guess we'll
learn more about him as the weeks go by.
And just for the record, I don't mind a little over the top
theatricality if the voice is still thrilling. I liked "Satisfaction".
tzigaane
Larc
I agree! The judges, especially Simon, tend somehow to put down theatrical type
performances as less demanding than other types. I don't see it. Broadway is
no less a valid venue than any other. And that kind of performance has as much
right to exist as any other kind there is. Some of the so-called pop singers
should only hope they had the chops to pull off something like that.
Larc
TheChris
True.... For every 'Backstreet Boy/98 Degree' wannabe... He can sing,
and is personable....Let's just hope he likes chicks :)
Things like that have ways of de-railing careers :)
fmomoon
This show tends to give a spotlight to anyone who can cross
genres...jondras. He's already shown that he is something of a chameleon.
I posted this song to show that he can sing a good, standard ballad, without
the fireworks. No contortions, just vocals. This song is one of those
"inspirational" songs, similar to another clip that has him singing "The
Prayer." He can do those songs. He knows, I'm sure, that Archie came in
second singing mostly ballads. The fact that Adam *can* sing the edgier
stuff may very well be in his favor, but I predict that he will blow
everyone away some week by singing a ballad, with nothing but the melody and
considerable self-control.
--
Moni
James Robinson
> I predict that he will blow everyone away some week by
> singing a ballad, with nothing but the melody and considerable
> self-control.
It worked for David Cook last season with "Music of the Night" from Phantom
of the Opera, which he sang without flourish to prove he could do it:
fmomoon
"James Robinson" <was...@212.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BC1CE62B9...@94.75.244.46...
I remember that. It wasn't my favorite thing by him, and I preferred the
studio recording, but it wasn't the worst thing, either.
--
Moni
Larc
I think Adam would nail that one. Maybe it came a year too early, but I'm just
as happy ALW is in AI's past.
Larc
fmomoon
"Larc" <la...@notmyaddress.com> wrote in message
news:7jnmq41rcaiqjf3t6...@4ax.com...
And they call Adam theatrical? Adam needs to step away from this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSUuOlsEDfU
--
Moni
fmomoon
> Rudd's chagrin, Rhydian lost to my favorite, 17 year old Leon Jackson.
> ;-)
>
> Rhydian had a lifetime of vocal training to go with his over-the top
> Adam Ant hair style and histrionics. The bookmakers in London had hug
> odds for him to win, and a lot of people lost a lot of money when Leon
> got the nod. :) I find it interesting that I really, really like
> Adam Lambert and really, really disliked Rhydian. For the life of me
> I can't put my finger on what the difference is/was for me. They're
> both similarly theatrical, polished and unique.
>
> But all that aside, Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber himself called Rhydian and
> offered him work in current and future productions. Many assume that
> Rhydian will get the cherry part in "POTO 2) which Webber is rumored
> to have in the works for the West End. Whatever he does, Simon Cowell
> will make a bundle off it since he essentially "owns" Rhydian at this
> point.
>
To be fair. X Factor is not AI. They have different formats and, seemingly,
different intents. Theatrical goes over fairly well with X Factor. So does
opera and little girls singing. None of which would fly with AI. I agree
with you about Rhydian. The difference, to me, is that Rhydian came across
as a machine. I don't get that at all with Adam. In one respect, they are
polar opposites: Adam is all about letting go and holding nothing back and
Rhydian came across as calculated to the point of killing any spontaneity.
I realize I'm not making that much sense and I hope you understand what I
mean.
--
Moni
TheChris
4ax.com:
> On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 23:17:13 +0000 (UTC), TheChris
> It hasn't hurt the careers of Clay Aiken, Lance Bass, Elton John,
> Barry Manilow, kd lang, Melissa Etheridge, Neil Patrick Harris, Daniel
> Craig (James Bond in the upcoming new movie), Ellen, Andy Dick, Lily
> Tomlin, et. al. Overall, people today are much more tolerant than
> older generations were of people's sexual preference and other
> lifestyle choices. There will always be bigots who will base whose
> singing they listen to or which actors they will watch on things like
> sexual preference or race, but they're gradually dying off and not
> being replaced; the younger generation today is much more blind to the
> superficial than have been previous ones in the U.S.
>
You are reaching for the stars... All, if not most of those *singers*
were established PRIOR to the news... And those who are not singers -
don't count...Apples and Oranges...
And did I miss something?? How is Manilow on that list?
And, are you *sure* it hasn't hurt Aiken or Lance Bass... who based
their careers around screaming young girls?....
Elton John is just a freakin' writing genius... The world is a better
place with his songs.... Not with Aikens.... Trust me on that one :)
DYZN
@85.214.105.209:
> zob <zob...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:bi4nq4dlj9krvubm400sldq831pkl30s7l@
> 4ax.com:
>>
>> It hasn't hurt the careers of Clay Aiken, Lance Bass, Elton John,
>> Barry Manilow, kd lang, Melissa Etheridge, Neil Patrick Harris,
Daniel
>> Craig (James Bond in the upcoming new movie), Ellen, Andy Dick, Lily
>> Tomlin, et. al. Overall, people today are much more tolerant than
>> older generations were of people's sexual preference and other
>> lifestyle choices. There will always be bigots who will base whose
>> singing they listen to or which actors they will watch on things
like
>> sexual preference or race, but they're gradually dying off and not
>> being replaced; the younger generation today is much more blind to
the
>> superficial than have been previous ones in the U.S.
>>
>
> You are reaching for the stars... All, if not most of those *singers*
> were established PRIOR to the news... And those who are not singers -
> don't count...Apples and Oranges...
>
> And did I miss something?? How is Manilow on that list?
Someone on the internet said he is, so it must be true.
Daniel Craig was married, has a daughter and is known to have been
involved with other women.
>
> And, are you *sure* it hasn't hurt Aiken or Lance Bass... who based
> their careers around screaming young girls?....
They only came out when they realised their career is almost over, and
hoped that the publicity will give their flagging career a little boost.
In that respect, Lance Bass isn't doing too badly.
tzigaane
And a lot of the time the judges lambaste the contestants who are
chameleons, saying "we don't know who you are, people don't know what
kind of record you'll make etc. etc." and treat it as some sort of
liability that should be fixed. I really think it just depends on if the
contestant in question is the chosen one.
t
tzigaane
It was great, and the judges gave him a hard time about not staying in
his little niche. It's a good example of my point that the judges will
more often than not criticize a performer for being too versatile and
"confusing" their potential fans.
tzigaane
Aaron
wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> > On Feb 27, 6:02 pm, Mickey <mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >> aarons12...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Feb 27, 5:06 pm, Mickey <mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Aaron wrote:
> >>>>> On Feb 27, 4:20 pm, Mickey <mickey_and_ed...@sbcnomorephishglobal.net>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Aaron wrote:
> >>>>>>> Mickey, I'd love to hear your opinion on this in particular. I was
> >>>>>>> watching him more closely last night, and it seemed to me that his
> >>>>>>> high notes were, perhaps in true rocker style, more a matter of
> >>>>>>> forcing and contorting his instrument than part of what would be
> >>>>>>> considered his actual range.
> >>>>>> Western musical vocalism has been for the last several hundred years
> >>>>>> (and particularly for men) about a uniform timbre (or the illusion of
> >>>>>> it) over a range of around 2 octaves (slightly more for women). This
> >>>>>> technical approach is probably the result of collision of several vocal
> >>>>>> cultures in the late Renaissance, most importantly the Italianate and
> >>>>>> the Cantorial. The voice can be extended in range (pitch) but at the
> >>>>>> expense of an even timbre.
> >>>>>> For an example of great cantorial singing, here's a clip from Gershon
> >>>>>> Sirota. Caruso, roughly a contemporary, was credited with counting
> >>>>>> himself lucky that Sirota chose to be a cantor rather than going into opera.
> >>>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-iXVfMZ-M
> >>>>>> For something more recent from another chazzan. Warning, melismaphobes
> >>>>>> should avoid this clip.
> >>>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URs24-2DJk8&feature=related
> >>>>>>> It was hard to say, because singing with one's tongue out is
> >>>>>>> definitely in the style of the song he sang this week, but it seemed
> >>>>>>> to me that the higher he had to sing, the more he pushed out his
> >>>>>>> tongue. It was almost as if a deaf person could measure the note he
> >>>>>>> was hitting by how distended he made his mouth and tongue, if that
> >>>>>>> deaf person but knew the proper translation from length to notes.
> >>>>>> is at the expense of vocal color (some would say beauty) which is why
> >>>>>> you never Placido Domingo doing it. (Pardon me if I don't explain more
> >>>>>> fully, but I really want to stick the main thrust of your question.)
> >>>>>>> I know a lot of rockers throughout the decades have had ranges like
> >>>>>>> Adam's, or vice versa I suppose, and I knew it was a forcing that
> >>>>>>> would not be done in classical music, that is hard on the voice, but
> >>>>>>> I've not looked at it as closely as I have with Adam, or noticed the
> >>>>>>> "trick" behind it as much as I think I did with him.
> >>>>>> extend the upper register in a way not consonant with classical music
> >>>>>> aesthetics.
> >>>>>>> Of course, in the classical realm (or semi-classical) you have Sarah
> >>>>>>> Brightman and Joan Sutherland, among others, but they do not force it
> >>>>>>> like he seems to.
> >>>>>> you assume he is forcing. I don't know that he is. That he's been doing
> >>>>>> for some time, suggests he is not.
> >>>>>>> And, back when I was training I had this one time
> >>>>>>> where I was reaching crazy high notes singing a scale exercise,
> >>>>>>> without thinking about it (my teacher just kept going)...but again
> >>>>>>> that wasn't forced. In fact it was effortless, which was the really
> >>>>>>> strange part...
> >>>>>>> And speaking of tricks, I want to hear Adam sing something more
> >>>>>>> serious, because to me it all felt gimmicky this week, which is why I
> >>>>>>> said before that I could really do without him in this competition and
> >>>>>>> it wouldn't bother me.
> >>>>>>> So what do YOU think of Adam? Mickey or anyone...
> >>>>>> strong voice, on a healthy body, with a technique that allows him to do
> >>>>>> what he wants. I question what he wants. As for the beauty or aesthetic
> >>>>>> of his voice, he wouldn't be the first person I'd call to sing Tamino.
> >>>>>> The Other Mickey
> >>>>> Thanks for the reply! So, to summarize, you are saying that you
> >>>>> wouldn't properly call it "forcing", but that perhaps I did correctly
> >>>>> attribute his tongue usage to his extended range? But that's ok, since
> >>>>> we're not watching an opera competition?
> >>>> It's attributable to the way in which he is extending his range, i.e.,
> >>>> there are other ways which do not include sticking out one's tongue.
> >>>> Post puberty male altos and sopranos (counter-tenors) can sing as high
> >>>> or higher than Adam, but not with the same timbre and probably not with
> >>>> the same volume. These three clips are of endocrinological castrato Radu
> >>>> Marian (adult, but never went through puberty), counter-tenor Philippe
> >>>> Jaroussky, and female singers Suzie LeBlanc and Cecilia Bartoli all
> >>>> singing the same Handel aria. (Listening to Radu Marian is like
> >>>> listening to history, back to the day when the stars of the opera world
> >>>> were the castrati.) It shouldn't be too hard to notice the differences,
> >>>> though all are quite wonderful, each in his or her own way. It should
> >>>> also be obvious how their approach to the upper voice is different from
> >>>> Adams. Please enjoy. These are worth hearing.
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyG-EHOazM&feature=relatedhttp://www....
> >>>> The Other Mickey
> >>> I will, and I listened to your other clips as well! I always
> >>> appreciate when you post them.
> >>> But counter-tenors...aren't they using falsetto?
> >> Depending on whose definition one uses, Adam is using falsetto (larynx
> >> in the juvenile position) and countertenors are singing in head voice
> >> (low larynx). Conversely, countertenors are often called falsettists.
> >> The real question is whether the larynx is allowed to move up or stays
> >> down. (I suspect when Adam sticks out his tongue, his larynx rises along
> >> with it, but short of observing him close up, it's only a guess.)
>
> >>> I can generate a
> >>> great deal of power, over a large range that descends well into my
> >>> "normal" range, with my falsetto. It would be hard for the average
> >>> listener to know I was using falsetto, unless I sing "Der Holle Rache"
> >>> or the like... Admittedly, it took a lot of practice, but... I've
> >>> always considered falsetto "cheating".
> >> It isn't unless you're singing "Nessun Dorma" and sing the money notes
> >> in pure head voice (yet another somewhat vague term).
>
> >>> Back to the point, is a counter-tenor truly using "full voice"?
> >> In the sense I believe you are using it, no, but the term is hardly
> >> rigorous or even meaningful. (The following is horribly over
> >> simplified.) The vocal folds are marvelously flexible in their
> >> operation. They can change thickness and tension in myriad combinations,
> >> changing both pitch and timbre in the process. The thicker the fold, the
> >> more tension is necessary to tune it to a particular pitch, the converse
> >> is also true. For example, to crescendo, (along with increasing breath
> >> pressure) the folds must thicken in conjunction with the muscles
> >> tensioning the folds must pull them more taut (and about a half a dozen
> >> other things). As long as the larynx is at a stable low position, there
> >> is no fundamental difference between full voice or head voice other than
> >> how thick the vocal folds are.
>
> >> Because there are real limits to what the voice can do, tenors and
> >> countertenors optimize their production (fine tune their technique) to
> >> produce the most even timbre (and potential range of timbre) over their
> >> characteristic tessitura (ok, tessiture). In general, countertenors sing
> >> with a "thinner" vocal fold under less tension than tenors. (As I
> >> warned, this was shamefully simplified, but I think you might get the idea.)
>
> >> The Other Mickey
>
> > I do get the idea, and I can see there is a whole volume of
> > information that you left out for simplicity's sake. I can see that
> > asking if this person or that is using "head voice/falsetto" or "full
> > voice" is a vague question with an extremely complicated answer.
>
> > I wonder, now, whether my singing up into the soprano range is with my
> > larynx in the juvenile position, or the low position. I'm sure you
> > could tell me if you saw and heard me, but is there a way I can find
> > out on my own?
>
> > -Aaron
>
> Sure, easy as pi, but far less transcendental. First find the pointy bit
> on the front of your Adam's apple (thyroid cartilage). You now have a
> good indicator of larynx position. At rest, the point should be at about
> the midpoint in your neck. Now, stand up and place the tip of a finger
> lightly on your Adam's apple, just enough to note where it is but not
> enough to keep it from moving. Take a deep breath. If you do that
> correctly, your larynx will probably descend to an even lower position.
> Sing a note at a comfortable pitch. If you do this correctly, the larynx
> will stay where it was after you took the breath. Exhale, inhale, and
> begin an upward scale from the previous note. Don't worry if your voice
> "breaks." If the larynx climbs (eventually) with pitch, your extreme
> upper register is probably falsetto. As a final check, sing in what you
> call your soprano register and note whether the larynx is high or near
> where it was when you took that first standing breath. If it is high,
> you are singing in falsetto. If it is low, you are singing in head voice.
>
> The Other Mickey
Will do...now all I need is privacy. From what I could tell, singing
the "soprano" notes really quietly, my larynx was still low, but I
didn't experiment much and it was before you made this post.
So, head voice is what style? Countertenor?
And thank you for the lesson! I hope you take IOUs. (imagine a wink)
-Aaron
Aaron
> On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:38:52 -0800, "fmomoon" <fmom...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"DYZN" <D...@false.address.com> wrote in message
> >news:f9ednbx9rNiTYDTU...@pipex.net...
> >> Tim Hall <ihates...@soimnottelling.com> wrote in
> >>news:senjq4ltkc20t3bvc...@4ax.com:
>
> >>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:17:50 -0800, "regga" <regga...@olypen.com>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>>I agree, some of Adam's higher ranges seem a bit forced & too
> >>>>theatrical to be taken seriously sometimes. He's unquestionably
> >>>>talented but he'd fare better with a rawer approach..plus his
> >>>>choreography at times looks gay to me, which is not a problem except
> >>>>it doesn't fit the image he is attempting to convey.
>
> >>> Hmm, well if he's trying to project a straight image, he's going to be
> >>> even less successful than Clay.
>
> >> Why would you even think that he'd be worry about people thinking he might
> >> be gay? Why would anyone think that he is attempting to convey a straight
> >> image? As if there is such a thing as a standard gay image nowadays.
>
> >> This is him, no doubt just playing a role, and he sure doesn't look
> >> worried
> >> about doing it -
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx90vjBkv8g
>
Hunh...I didn't think so. Heard some falsetto/head voice when he
should have been using controlled, soft "full voice". Sorry Mickey
that my terminology is still not up to snuff. At any rate, there are
other ways to sing softly than using falsetto, and I prefer those =)
-Aaron
Bob Rudd
SLG...@madeitup.com says...
> as the ultimate cash cow, as evidenced when the judges say things like
> "I wouldn't know where to put you."
>
>
>
But greg, they have to think that way if they're going to be successful.
There are Indie labels for "outside the box" performers to attempt to
make it.
Mickey
Not really. All voice categories are capable of head voice or chest
voice or whatever you want to call a vocal register. Voice
categorization is by timbre and range. Timbre is a product both of basic
vocal physiology and aesthetic choices made in training and preparation.
(More simplified explanations now follow.)
While the edges of the vocal fold are a mucous membranes, it is more
useful to think of the vocal folds or chords in terms of the complex of
muscles which support the membrane. The muscles not only tension the
chord (set the pitch) but also the effective weight and stiffness of the
fold, which effects timbre and volume. In addition to the vocal folds,
there are other muscles which tensions the folds. Thus, this complex of
muscle systems allows the folds to be adjusted for a range of volume,
timbre, and pitch. The throat and mouth further effect timbre
(filtering) and the acoustical loading "seen" by the folds (impedance).
The combination of folds and filter configurations defines a range of
POSSIBLE volumes, timbres, and pitches possible for the individual. (A
3d chart of vocal capabilities would look kind of like a yam. A more
realistic model would require at least n=4.)
What is aesthetically pleasing (and generally useful) in most Western
music are instruments which produce fairly homogeneous scales. For
example, it would be difficult to follow the melody played by the oboe,
within a moderately dense orchestral setting, if each note had a
radically different timbre. (BTW, there are school of composition based
on the notion of timbre analogies to melody, e.g., klangfarbe musik.) As
a result, most Western vocal cultures strive to create voices which have
the maximum range of pitch and volume within a constrained, but still
fairly rich, range of timbres. The requirement of intelligible vowels
further constrains the realm of practical timbres.
Still with me? So far, we've touched on what is possible and what is
aesthetically practical. We now get to question of the physiologically
practical. In simple terms, you can't sing the highest and loudest notes
possible all night any more than one can repeatedly perform any task
which requires maximal effort. Fatigue and vocal edema imposes practical
limits on the voice. Thus, a voice is defined by the compromises
inherent in the trade-offs of compass, consistency and range of timbre,
and stamina. (Starting to see why the answer to your question is not
simple?)
So, aesthetic and practical choices made during training (and to a
lesser extent, preparation) defines the characteristic color and range
of the singing voice. In kind of weird way, the music one chooses to
sing also helps define the voice-type. When one chooses to be a
countertenor, provided the choice is plausible, one makes different
training (and maintenance) choices than someone with similar
physiological attributes who wishes to be a tenor. (BTW, many if not
most countertenors are "natural" baritones, not tenors). The
countertenor sings music with a higher tessitura than the tenor and will
not be able to carry the vocal weight of the tenor voice into the higher
pitches. For the sake of consistency, the countertenor must then sing
the lower parts of his voice more lightly, so that they match up better
with the higher parts of the voice. So even the "head voice" of a tenor
and countertenor are going to sound different even if singing the same
pitch.
Okay, enough for now. Digest this a bit and get back to me.
The Other Mickey
KC
>On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:02:05 -0500, Bob Rudd <bob...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>It's kind of what has happened to Clay Aiken. He's caught somewhere
>between pop and adult contemporary, and doesn't really fit into any
>niche despite his awesome voice.
He's in the "Great Voice, Not Cool" section, along with Rick Astley.
Tom Jones has done a good job changing with the times and the name
alone packs ''em in, but if he came on the scene now? Same with Karen
Carpenter. Who can deny that lovely voice, but would she be a star
today? Or are these voices not what the music scene wants at the
moment?
KC
Larc
Likewise some of the big music stars now wouldn't have been given the time of
day two or three decades ago. More than a few of them would have been laughed
or booed off the stage. But not being able to carry a tune isn't as much a
stigma now as it once was.
Larc
Aaron
Argh! I'm starting to get indigestion. I appreciate the wealth of
information, though!
I do follow you, believe it or not...but I'm really just trying to
figure out my own vocal technique (which was self-developed, in the
high register, not via training) and discern what singing style it
most closely resembles.... I find it effortless and perhaps it is
worth pursuing, at least in an amateurish forum.
So I'm going to do something TC does, and hope it doesn't drive you
nuts. I need you to complete these sentences as best you can using
only a few words.
If I check out my soprano register, and it turns out I'm using
"falsetto", IOW high larynx IIRC, I am singing in the style(s) of
______________________ (if anything)
If I check out my soprano register, and it turns out I'm using "head
voice", IOW low larynx IIRC, I am singing in the style(s) of
__________________
I know you hate to oversimplify, and you really think you've told me
enough for me to figure this out on my own, but I want you to break it
down simply for me if you can.
Interestingly enough, you said countertenors tend to be baritones, and
I most accurately am a baritone. I had that one lesson where my range
went up (easily) to a high B-flat in "full-voice" (I'm positive), and
I can sing down to a low G (2+ octaves down), but typically I can not
sing that high without sounding like Von Smith on crack, unless I
switch to falsetto/head voice.
> The Other Mickey
-Aaron
Mickey
Frankie Valli. This approach to high register is common in Dowop and
related genres.
(if anything)
>
> If I check out my soprano register, and it turns out I'm using "head
> voice", IOW low larynx IIRC, I am singing in the style(s) of
Countertenor, male soprano, male alto, castrato (check the hardware). If
confined to the 10th above middle C, this list could include tenor.
> I know you hate to oversimplify, and you really think you've told me
> enough for me to figure this out on my own, but I want you to break it
> down simply for me if you can.
I've explained what I realistically can long distance. Is it enough to
figure out how to sing? Not in our dreams.
>
> Interestingly enough, you said countertenors tend to be baritones, and
> I most accurately am a baritone. I had that one lesson where my range
> went up (easily) to a high B-flat in "full-voice" (I'm positive),
But where was your larynx? Part of this tonal equation must also include
how "heavy" or "thick" the vocal fold configuration. It's not unusual
for untrained singers to ascend to B-flat or above with the vocal folds
configured for what would otherwise be considered full voice, but with
the larynx ending up in an ascended position. In the bizz this is called
a necktie or "cravaten" tenor. Though the sound is hard on the ears of
those forced to hear it, this sort of production requires less effort
from the singer than "full voice." It is also not usual for the same
untrained singer to ascend to the same pitch with thinner vocal folds
and keep the larynx down (head voice). Learning to sing the upper
compass of the voice with real power and a low laryngeal position is the
central canon of Western art music vocalism.
A full voiced B-flat from a baritone may be free feeling but cannot be
described as easy. At the very least, there is a feeling of extreme
involvement. (The closest thing to it in my experience is when I hit a
golf ball right in the middle of the sweet spot: undeniably athletic but
strain and force free. All the power is directed into the ball with none
reflected back up the shaft to my body.) It's also not usual for the
highest pitches for a baritone to be easier than some notes slightly
lower. For example, my A and B-flat were easier, though certainly not
easy, than my G and G#. (A lot of "Verdi baritones" have problems with E
and F below that.)
Your top B-flat might also be in what is sometimes called a "reinforced
head voice," a sound not uncommon among operatic tenors (and sopranos)
when singing fairly high notes softly. The what and how of this is yet
another even longer discussion, so I demur.
The Other Mickey
KC
wrote:
Not being able to carry a tune isn't as big an obstacle, either. Back
in the day, there was no way to sweeten the voice, or conceal the
flaws. Those singers either had it, or they didn't. The people who
didn't have a voice, say Bob Dylan or Joe Cocker, had to have
something else going for them, something to say, a compelling
performance.
KC