Year end ratings, TAR vs. other hot shows.

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Ar Q

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May 23, 2008, 10:43:00 PM5/23/08
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TVR YAR TVM YAR*
1 1 28.8 11.2 FOX American Idol (Tue)
2 2 27.4 10.7 FOX American Idol (Wed)
3 10 21.7 5.5 ABC Dancing w. Stars (fall/Mon)
4 13 19.6 4.9 ABC Dancing w. Stars (fall/Tue)
4 13 19.6 4.9 ABC Dancing w. Stars (spring/Mon)
6 3 18.2 7.0 ABC Desperate Housewives
7 23 17.5 4.1 ABC Dancing w. Stars (spring/Tue)
8 13 16.9 4.9 CBS CSI
9 4 16.8 6.7 FOX House
10 5 15.6 6.4 ABC Grey's Anatomy
11 8 15.5 6.1 NBC Sunday Night Football
12 12 15.2 5.1 CBS Survivor: China
13 6 14.7 6.2 FOX The Moment of Truth
14 60 14.2 3.0 CBS NCIS
15 20 13.8 4.2 CBS CSI: Miami
16 16 13.6 4.8 CBS Two and a Half Men
16 17 13.6 4.6 CBS Survivor: Micronesia
18 39 13.3 3.5 CBS Without a Trace
19 6 13.1 6.2 NBC Heroes
19 17 13.1 4.6 ABC Extreme Makeover: HE
21 9 13.0 5.6 ABC Lost
22 74 12.9 2.6 CBS 60 Minutes
23 43 12.7 3.4 CBS Criminal Minds
24 10 11.9 5.5 FOX Hell's Kitchen
25 30 11.8 3.9 ABC Samantha Who?
25 30 11.8 3.9 CBS The Amazing Race
27 46 11.7 3.3 CBS CSI: NY


For 2007-2008 season, The Amazing Race is ranked 25th on total viewership,
30th among young viewers. How good is this performance? It beats CBS'
precious CSI:NY which is ranked 27th on total viewers and 46th among young
viewers. If TAR can maintain its current viewers, we should have many
seasons to come.


Ar Q

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May 23, 2008, 11:05:03 PM5/23/08
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TVR YAR TVM YAR*

8 13 16.9 4.9 CBS CSI
12 12 15.2 5.1 CBS Survivor: China
14 60 14.2 3.0 CBS NCIS
15 20 13.8 4.2 CBS CSI: Miami
16 16 13.6 4.8 CBS Two and a Half Men
16 17 13.6 4.6 CBS Survivor: Micronesia
18 39 13.3 3.5 CBS Without a Trace
22 74 12.9 2.6 CBS 60 Minutes
23 43 12.7 3.4 CBS Criminal Minds
25 30 11.8 3.9 CBS The Amazing Race
27 46 11.7 3.3 CBS CSI: NY
29 56 11.2 3.1 CBS The Unit
31 72 11.1 2.7 CBS Cold Case
33 25 10.8 4.0 CBS Rules of Engagement
37 33 10.4 3.8 CBS Old Christine
39 81 10.3 2.4 CBS Shark
47 81 9.2 2.4 CBS Numbers
52 81 8.9 2.4 CBS Cane
56 81 8.7 2.4 CBS Ghost Whisperer
60 46 8.3 3.3 CBS The Big Bang Theory
63 46 8.2 3.3 CBS How I Met Your Mother
73 78 7.8 2.5 CBS Kid Nation
76 98 7.5 2.1 CBS Moonlight
78 81 7.1 2.4 CBS Jericho
85 81 6.6 2.4 CBS Big Brother

The above list is for CBS shows only. In 2007-2008 season, TAR is the 10th
ranked CBS show. It improves to the 6th on young adults. Also, you can see
CBS shows skewed to old audience. For example, while Cold Case is ranked
31th on total viewers, it is the 72th among young viewers [aged 18 -49]. If
CBS needs to cut some old shows, things like Cold Case, even Numb3rs, will
be up in the front of the list.


number6

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May 23, 2008, 11:41:28 PM5/23/08
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Big Brother last ... That does my heart good as much as Amazing Race
doing well ...

Artis

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May 24, 2008, 6:21:18 PM5/24/08
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Me too.

Martin Phipps

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May 25, 2008, 12:52:45 AM5/25/08
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It's always been like that. CBS was the network of 60 Minutes, Murder
She Wrote, Diagnosis Murder and Matlock, all of which appealed to
older people and not young people. Oddly enough, they are still doing
crime dramas and they still appeal more to older people than young
people and yet they've managed to get nine crime dramas in the top
fifty amongst all network shows. The formula is finally working for
them.

> For example, while Cold Case is ranked
> 31th on total viewers, it is the 72th among young viewers [aged 18 -49]. If
> CBS needs to cut some old shows, things like Cold Case, even Numb3rs, will
> be up in the front of the list.

But Numbers has already gone for a few seasons, which means they are
guaranteed to make money from syndication and overseas distribution.
They might even be able to package a few seasons as DVDs. I wonder
how much of a consideration all that is nowadays: television rights,
overseas distribution and DVD sales are all major sources of revenue
when it comes to movies but I don't know how much they factor into the
viability of network TV dramas.

Anyway, I'm surprised the ratings for Numbers are so low. The acting
is pretty good and the scripts are not that bad, considering that it's
a obvious sometimes that they aren't written by actual mathematicians.

Martin

UCLAN

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May 25, 2008, 1:18:14 AM5/25/08
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Martin Phipps wrote:

> But Numbers has already gone for a few seasons, which means they are
> guaranteed to make money from syndication and overseas distribution.
> They might even be able to package a few seasons as DVDs.

Season 1&2 of "Numb3rs" is already out on DVD.

Eric West

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May 25, 2008, 1:45:12 AM5/25/08
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Ar Q wrote...
> TVR YAR TVM YAR*

> 25 30 11.8 3.9 CBS The Amazing Race
> 31 72 11.1 2.7 CBS Cold Case
> 47 81 9.2 2.4 CBS Numbers
>
> The above list is for CBS shows only. In 2007-2008 season, TAR is the 10th
> ranked CBS show. It improves to the 6th on young adults. Also, you can see
> CBS shows skewed to old audience. For example, while Cold Case is ranked
> 31th on total viewers, it is the 72th among young viewers [aged 18 -49].
If
> CBS needs to cut some old shows, things like Cold Case, even Numb3rs, will
> be up in the front of the list.

Lists like this are misleading, though, because CBS shows reruns of many of
its more popular shows, and for some reason the ratings for those reruns are
included in the season average. That's why CSI is lower than Desperate
Housewives and nearly tied with House on the overall season list despite
constantly beating them week to week. In truth, Cold Case always got more
viewers than TAR last fall; it only finishes lower in the overall list
because its rerun ratings bring the average down. I shudder to think what
TAR's average would have been if they had rerun this past race's episodes
during the spring.

Young adult ratings are one thing, but we shouldn't pretend that Cold Case
is somehow in trouble compared to TAR based on these misleading numbers.

ecw
e-w...@northwestern.edu


Ar Q

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May 25, 2008, 2:00:40 AM5/25/08
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"Eric West" <e-w...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:6-mdnZT2X_tTYaXV...@comcast.com...

|
| Ar Q wrote...
| > TVR YAR TVM YAR*
| > 25 30 11.8 3.9 CBS The Amazing Race
| > 31 72 11.1 2.7 CBS Cold Case
| > 47 81 9.2 2.4 CBS Numbers
| >
|
| Lists like this are misleading, though, because CBS shows reruns
of many of
| its more popular shows, and for some reason the ratings for
those reruns are
| included in the season average.

No, these ratings numbers are for original programs. Cold Case has
average 11.1 million viewers when airing new episode. That number
drops to below 10 million with repeats. Same thing happens to
Numb3rs. They got 9.2m and 8m depending on new or rerun. However,
Numb3rs are Friday show. The ratings is supposed to be lower than
Sunday show like TAR.


Eric West

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May 25, 2008, 3:00:24 AM5/25/08
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Ar Q wrote...

>
> "Eric West" <e-w...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:6-mdnZT2X_tTYaXV...@comcast.com...
> |
> | Ar Q wrote...
> | > TVR YAR TVM YAR*
> | > 25 30 11.8 3.9 CBS The Amazing Race
> | > 31 72 11.1 2.7 CBS Cold Case
> | > 47 81 9.2 2.4 CBS Numbers
> | >
> |
> | Lists like this are misleading, though, because CBS shows reruns
> of many of
> | its more popular shows, and for some reason the ratings for
> those reruns are
> | included in the season average.
>
> No, these ratings numbers are for original programs. Cold Case has
> average 11.1 million viewers when airing new episode. That number
> drops to below 10 million with repeats.

May I ask what your source is for that, and where that source specifically
claims that the official averages are based only on original programming?
Because zap2it's numbers are similar, and they clearly include reruns for
many CBS shows (case in point: CSI did not have 31 original episodes this
season). The lower number you cite "with repeats" might be referring to the
times Cold Case reruns have been shown on other evenings during the year.

Even beyond that, the mere fact that Cold Case's week-to-week ratings were
always higher than TAR's should suggest that these "season average" numbers
are misleading in some way. Just looking at other parts of your list,
there's absolutely no way that Survivor: China was CBS's second most popular
show of the year, and anyone looking back at the week-to-week numbers could
confirm such a thing. And again: one can't have CSI beating House by a fair
margin basically every week and then say that over the whole season their
ratings were almost the same. It just doesn't add up.

I don't know if it's some sort of "glitch" for this year because of the
strike, but it's something I've specifically noticed as the year has gone
on; something's fishy about the season averages this time around. I don't
immediately have the resources to do a full scientific study, but empirical
evidence suggests that same-time-slot reruns are indeed being factored into
the official numbers this season.

Maybe there's some other reason, but any way you slice it I'm willing to bet
that Cold Case isn't in any particular danger, compared with TAR or
otherwise.

ecw
e-w...@northwestern.edu


Ar Q

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May 25, 2008, 11:35:15 AM5/25/08
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"Eric West" <e-w...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:SNidnaI_1sHzk6TV...@comcast.com...

|
| May I ask what your source is for that, and where that source
specifically
| claims that the official averages are based only on original
programming?

The source is Hollywood Reporter. There are more posts with
complete listings on rec.arts.tv. Look for David's or WQ's posts.

When tallying year end ratings, they have to count only original
episodes because many shows don't rerun or don't rerun well. To be
fair on comparison, it has to count only new programs. And it has
been that way always.

Also, I see the ratings numbers for new Numb3rs and Cold Case are
about right. This year all shows suffer from low ratings, not just
CBS'. Cold Case now only pulls 11.1 million in average for new
episodes. You may ask why TAR has 11.8 million viewers because
your first impression is that Cold Case should have better ratings
when comparing only new programs. There are two reasons:

1. On normal circumstance, Cold Case had higher ratings but TAR
got boosted by late NFL overruns and beat Cold Case on those
occasions. (It is a smart move of CBS. They kept the young viewers
of NFL to continue watching CBS programs. Then when TAR is over,
the majority of these young viewers just turn off TV.)

2. When the ratings decline further more for all shows in the
second half of the season, TAR has no longer on air.

So TAR has a slightly edge over Cold Case on total viewers. But
the key point is that TAR completely dominates Cold Case on young
viewers category which is more important for networks to sell
advertisements.


Brian Smith

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May 25, 2008, 2:37:57 PM5/25/08
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"Artis" <laj...@gmi.net> wrote in message
news:93637e9b-16f3-43fa...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

BB is not a winter show and no one was expecting it to bring in good
ratings. It's job was to help fill the schedule during the writer's strike
and it did a great job of that. If it had been a disaster they would have
sped up the game immensely and ended the season. It'll be more interesting
to see how BB10 does this summer.

Brian


Tin@

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May 25, 2008, 4:48:15 PM5/25/08
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On May 25, 11:37 am, "Brian Smith" <dcg_br...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Artis" <lajo...@gmi.net> wrote in message
> Brian-

I actually enjoyed this BB more than a lot of recent past ones. Some
of the summer ones, I didnt even bother watching all the way through,
the people were so lame.

Obveeus

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May 26, 2008, 8:48:51 AM5/26/08
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"Ar Q" <Arthu...@hottmail.com> wrote:
> When tallying year end ratings, they have to count only original
> episodes because many shows don't rerun or don't rerun well. To be
> fair on comparison, it has to count only new programs. And it has
> been that way always.

You are giving out bad information. The data you are showing includes
reruns if the rerun is shown in the normal timeslot. For this reason, CSI
is not listed as the #1 scripted show even though it has the highest number
of viewers fro new episodes. Desperate Housewives is listed very high
because it only aired 1 rerun in its normal timeslot. If al of its reruns
were counted, it would not even be in the Top10 shows.


Martin Phipps

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May 26, 2008, 10:43:28 AM5/26/08
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On May 26, 8:48 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

That's easy to check. How many regular episodes of Desperate
Housewives have they shown? 20? How many repeats have they shown so
far? 10? Worst case scenario: nobody watches the reruns and the
overall rating drops by 33%. Then Desperate Housewives drops out of
the top ten but is still in the top thirty right after Criminal
Minds. For young adults, it stays in the top ten though and still
does better than CSI for that age group. The numbers don't lie. :)

Martin

Martin Phipps

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May 26, 2008, 10:45:32 AM5/26/08
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On May 25, 11:35 pm, "Ar Q" <ArthurQ...@hottmail.com> wrote:
> "Eric West" <e-w...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:SNidnaI_1sHzk6TV...@comcast.com...
> |
> | May I ask what your source is for that, and where that source
> specifically
> | claims that the official averages are based only on original
> programming?
>
> The source is Hollywood Reporter. There are more posts with
> complete listings on rec.arts.tv. Look for David's or WQ's posts.
>
> When tallying year end ratings, they have to count only original
> episodes because many shows don't rerun or don't rerun well. To be
> fair on comparison, it has to count only new programs. And it has
> been that way always.

Actually, no. This is being discussed on the thread on rec.arts.tv.
Ratings have included reruns ever since networks started airing new
episodes during sweeps week.

Martin

Martin Phipps

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May 26, 2008, 10:49:08 AM5/26/08
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And that would help DVD sales. Usually people buy DVDs of programs
they would have wanted to watch had it been on at a more convenient
time. The alternative of course is to use TIVO.

Martin

Martin Phipps

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May 26, 2008, 10:50:19 AM5/26/08
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Then somebody must be buying them.

Martin

Ar Q

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May 26, 2008, 12:15:09 PM5/26/08
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"Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:g1ebjn$qn$1...@registered.motzarella.org...

|
| You are giving out bad information. The data you are showing
includes
| reruns if the rerun is shown in the normal timeslot. For this
reason, CSI
| is not listed as the #1 scripted show even though it has the
highest number
| of viewers fro new episodes. Desperate Housewives is listed
very high
| because it only aired 1 rerun in its normal timeslot. If al of
its reruns
| were counted, it would not even be in the Top10 shows.
|
|

" 9 4 16.8 6.7 FOX House"

No, these ratings do not include reruns. The best evidence is
"House". Because of the writers' strike, "House" has more reruns
than original programs this season. Most "House" reruns are on
Friday/Saturday and pulled less than 10m viewers. While original
episodes pull stunning the 16.8 million viwers, the average total
viewers will drop to 12m or 13m if counting reruns.


UCLAN

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May 26, 2008, 3:08:48 PM5/26/08
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Martin Phipps wrote:

>>>But Numbers has already gone for a few seasons, which means they are
>>>guaranteed to make money from syndication and overseas distribution.
>>>They might even be able to package a few seasons as DVDs.
>>
>>Season 1&2 of "Numb3rs" is already out on DVD.
>
> Then somebody must be buying them.

Huh? I can put something out on DVD, but that doesn't mean anybody is
buying them. Your statement only makes sense if they weren't released
concurrently. They were released only months apart, so I doubt that
sales of Season 1 was factored in the release of Season 2. Sales of
Season 1&2 would only be a factor in the release of Season 3's DVD.

Ar Q

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May 26, 2008, 4:56:51 PM5/26/08
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"Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:g1ebjn$qn$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
|
| of viewers fro new episodes. Desperate Housewives is listed
very high
| because it only aired 1 rerun in its normal timeslot.

There are many Desperate Housewives reruns. What makes CSI ratings
so low are the two holiday new episodes on Thanksgiving and
Christmas. They are only slightly higher than 10m. Plus, there are
fewer new episodes this season.


Obveeus

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May 26, 2008, 4:59:39 PM5/26/08
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"Ar Q" <Arthu...@hottmail.com> wrote in message
news:8_ydnXIogo_ef6fV...@earthlink.com...

House reruns are not counted for the same reason that Desperate Housewives
reruns are not counted: the information you see is ONLY for the official
timeslot. CSI airs many of the reruns in the same timeslot as the show
normally airs, so CSI ratings are lowered. Desperate Housewives, meanwhile,
avoids showing reruns in the Sunday night timeslot, so none of its rerun
rqatings count 'against it'.

If only first run data was used, CSI would be the #1 show in viewers.

If only first run data was used, Grey's Anatomy would likely be the #1 show
in 18-49demo.


UCLAN

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May 27, 2008, 2:17:11 AM5/27/08
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Obveeus wrote:

> House reruns are not counted for the same reason that Desperate Housewives
> reruns are not counted: the information you see is ONLY for the official
> timeslot. CSI airs many of the reruns in the same timeslot as the show
> normally airs, so CSI ratings are lowered. Desperate Housewives, meanwhile,
> avoids showing reruns in the Sunday night timeslot, so none of its rerun
> rqatings count 'against it'.

I guess all of the Sunday reruns, including the episodes on 12/16 and 05/25
were my imagination? This season wasn't as steady as last season (ABC used
a lot of DH reruns as substitutes during the writers' strike), but last season
Sunday reruns were commonplace, with repeats of episodes 301, 302, 303, 304,
305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 316, 319, 320, 321 and 323 all running in the Sunday
slot, many of them repeating twice on Sundays. This year, ABC needed something
in the Friday 9pm slot during January and February, and DH repeats filled the
slot. They filled the Sunday 9pm slot with "Home Makeover" episodes (usually
a two-hour 8-10pm episode/episodes.) "Home Makeover" was not affected by the
writers' strike.

Ar Q

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May 27, 2008, 3:19:13 AM5/27/08
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"UCLAN" <nom...@thanks.org> wrote in message
news:xHN_j.37$1P6...@newsfe10.phx...

|
| I guess all of the Sunday reruns, including the episodes on
12/16 and 05/25
| were my imagination?

If ABC managed to start the reruns at 8:59PM or 9:01PM, then they
don't count against the ratings since it is not the original slot.


Martin Phipps

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May 27, 2008, 4:57:39 AM5/27/08
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On May 27, 2:17 pm, UCLAN <nom...@thanks.org> wrote:
> Obveeus wrote:
> > House reruns are not counted for the same reason that Desperate Housewives
> > reruns are not counted:  the information you see is ONLY for the official
> > timeslot.  CSI airs many of the reruns in the same timeslot as the show
> > normally airs, so CSI ratings are lowered.  Desperate Housewives, meanwhile,
> > avoids showing reruns in the Sunday night timeslot, so none of its rerun
> > rqatings count 'against it'.
>
> I guess all of the Sunday reruns, including the episodes on 12/16 and 05/25
> were my imagination? This season wasn't as steady as last season (ABC used
> a lot of DH reruns as substitutes during the writers' strike), but last season
> Sunday reruns were commonplace, with repeats of episodes 301, 302, 303, 304,
> 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 316, 319, 320, 321 and 323 all running in the Sunday
> slot, many of them repeating twice on Sundays.

Okay so the argument somebody made earlier about ABC not repeating
episodes of DH in its original timeslot were wrong. Perhaps then
people were more likely to watch reruns of DH than CSI and that's why
DH did better overal than CSI even though more people watched CSI
during its original run, So the ratings are fair and accurate because
they reflect how many people watch during the regular season: it's
only shows that don't repeat at all during their regular run that got
a boost here.

Martin

Martin Phipps

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May 27, 2008, 4:58:06 AM5/27/08
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Now, you're just being silly.

Martin

Obveeus

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May 27, 2008, 5:07:12 PM5/27/08
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"Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On May 27, 2:17 pm, UCLAN <nom...@thanks.org> wrote:
> Obveeus wrote:
> > House reruns are not counted for the same reason that Desperate
> > Housewives
> > reruns are not counted: the information you see is ONLY for the official
> > timeslot. CSI airs many of the reruns in the same timeslot as the show
> > normally airs, so CSI ratings are lowered. Desperate Housewives,
> > meanwhile,
> > avoids showing reruns in the Sunday night timeslot, so none of its rerun
> > rqatings count 'against it'.
>
> I guess all of the Sunday reruns, including the episodes on 12/16 and
> 05/25
> were my imagination? This season wasn't as steady as last season (ABC used
> a lot of DH reruns as substitutes during the writers' strike), but last
> season
> Sunday reruns were commonplace, with repeats of episodes 301, 302, 303,
> 304,
> 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 316, 319, 320, 321 and 323 all running in the
> Sunday
> slot, many of them repeating twice on Sundays.

>Okay so the argument somebody made earlier about ABC not repeating
>episodes of DH in its original timeslot were wrong.

No. UCLAN and AR Q are just misrepresenting the facts.

FACT: Desperate Housewives aired 1 rerun in its normal timeslot all season
long: 12/16.
The 5/25 rerun that just aired is after the end of May sweeps and was not
included in the data shown on the ratings list being discussed here.
UCLAN's claims about 'all of the Sunday reruns' of Desperate Housewives is
just completely wrong to the reality of what was broadcast this season by
ABC.

FACT: CSI aired 15 reruns in their normal timeslot. Those 15 reruns
brought down the overall ratings average for the show.
FACt: Desperate Housewives aired only 1 in timeslot rerun to bring down its
average.
FACT: CSI aired 17 new episodes this season (16 counted in this rating data
since the 17th was on a 'special' night 11/22).
FACT: Desperate Housewives aired 16 new episodes this season.

FACT: CSI is watched by more people in firstrun viewing that Desperate
Housewives and CSI only places below Desperate Housewives on the list
because of the rerun data that is included in that ratings list. Desperate
Housewives achieved its 'victory' by NOT showing reruns on Sunday night.


Eric West

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May 28, 2008, 1:48:12 AM5/28/08
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Ar Q wrote...

>
> 1. On normal circumstance, Cold Case had higher ratings but TAR
> got boosted by late NFL overruns and beat Cold Case on those
> occasions. (It is a smart move of CBS. They kept the young viewers
> of NFL to continue watching CBS programs. Then when TAR is over,
> the majority of these young viewers just turn off TV.)
>
> 2. When the ratings decline further more for all shows in the
> second half of the season, TAR has no longer on air.
>
> So TAR has a slightly edge over Cold Case on total viewers.

It's a nice story and all, but it's just not true. In fact, over 18 new
episodes during the 2007-08 season Cold Case averaged 12.06 million viewers,
compared to 11.19 million for the eleven Amazing Race shows. Even if you
only consider the six evenings where TAR was followed by a new Cold Case,
the latter show averaged 12.58 million versus 11.97 million for TAR. The
best part is that you don't have to believe me; you can go back to the
week-to-week numbers and do the math yourself.

> But
> the key point is that TAR completely dominates Cold Case on young
> viewers category which is more important for networks to sell
> advertisements.

This is a great point that you make, but it gets diminished when you invent
reasons to justify misleading "season" numbers that are obviously not
measuring the same thing. Frankly, the best answer is that both shows are
secure for the immediate future, albeit for different reasons.

ecw
e-w...@northwestern.edu


Eric West

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May 28, 2008, 2:21:41 AM5/28/08
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Martin Phipps wrote...

>
> Okay so the argument somebody made earlier about ABC not repeating
> episodes of DH in its original timeslot were wrong. Perhaps then
> people were more likely to watch reruns of DH than CSI and that's why
> DH did better overal than CSI even though more people watched CSI
> during its original run, So the ratings are fair and accurate because
> they reflect how many people watch during the regular season: it's
> only shows that don't repeat at all during their regular run that got
> a boost here.

I don't know if (or when) DH ever showed original-timeslot reruns this
season, but I do know that it's beside the point. The fact is that, for
whatever reason, the season averages are including rerun numbers for CSI
(and several other CBS shows) but not for DH and most top shows on other
networks. Again, the best part is that you don't have to believe me; if
common sense isn't enough to persuade you, you can go back and check the
week-to-week numbers yourself. They will tell you exactly what they told me:
for 17 new episodes this year CSI averaged 19.56 million viewers, compared
to 17.75 million for DH.

I'm not even sure what to say about the notion that DH must somehow do
better in reruns than CSI, because...nearly everything suggests otherwise,
from previous history to common sense to the available numbers to ABC's own
programming decisions. Like I said before, I don't know exactly why the
season numbers are fishy; I only have proof that they are. We all have that
proof, actually; anyone can do the same research I did.

ecw
e-w...@northwestern.edu


Ar Q

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May 28, 2008, 7:43:37 AM5/28/08
to

"Eric West" <e-w...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:MZ6dnfmKadBGZKHV...@comcast.com...

> >
> I don't know if (or when) DH ever showed original-timeslot reruns this
> season, but I do know that it's beside the point. The fact is that, for
> whatever reason, the season averages are including rerun numbers for CSI
> (and several other CBS shows) but not for DH and most top shows on other
> networks.

The only explanation I can think of is that

Depurative Housewives is serialized drama. Serialized drama and reality TV
don't count reruns on their annual ratings average.

Drama with independent story on each episode, like Cold Case or CSI, however
will count reruns when calculating the ratings average.


Obveeus

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May 28, 2008, 8:15:05 AM5/28/08
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"Ar Q" <Arthu...@hottmail.com> wrote in message
news:d9Sdne9r4-Q82KDV...@earthlink.com...

Maybe you should just pay attention to what you are told? The ratings in
the chart that was shown are based upon episodes of each show that aired in
that show's regular timeslot. CSI aired many reruns in its regular
Thursday timeslot, so many reruns were calculated into the show's rating
average. Desperate Housewives only aired 1 rerun in its regular Sunday
timeslot, so only one rerun weighed into that show's rating average.


Martin Phipps

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May 28, 2008, 10:56:05 AM5/28/08
to
On May 28, 5:07 am, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> FACT:  CSI aired 17 new episodes this season

Actually 20. I downloaded them all through bittorrent.

Martin

Martin Phipps

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May 28, 2008, 10:59:50 AM5/28/08
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On May 28, 5:07 am, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
> "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On May 27, 2:17 pm, UCLAN <nom...@thanks.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Obveeus wrote:
> > > House reruns are not counted for the same reason that Desperate
> > > Housewives
> > > reruns are not counted: the information you see is ONLY for the official
> > > timeslot. CSI airs many of the reruns in the same timeslot as the show
> > > normally airs, so CSI ratings are lowered. Desperate Housewives,
> > > meanwhile,
> > > avoids showing reruns in the Sunday night timeslot, so none of its rerun
> > > ratings count 'against it'.

>
> > I guess all of the Sunday reruns, including the episodes on 12/16 and
> > 05/25
> > were my imagination? This season wasn't as steady as last season (ABC used
> > a lot of DH reruns as substitutes during the writers' strike), but last
> > season
> > Sunday reruns were commonplace, with repeats of episodes 301, 302, 303,
> > 304,
> > 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 316, 319, 320, 321 and 323 all running in the
> > Sunday
> > slot, many of them repeating twice on Sundays.
> >Okay so the argument somebody made earlier about ABC not repeating
> >episodes of DH in its original timeslot were wrong.
>
> No.  UCLAN and AR Q are just misrepresenting the facts.

Actually, I misread him. He said "LAST SEASON Sunday reruns were
commonplace" which is irrevelant when considering this season's
numbers.

Are we done now?

Martin

Obveeus

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May 28, 2008, 11:35:03 AM5/28/08
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"Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:


05/15/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#817) For Gedda
05/08/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#816) Two and a Half Deaths
05/01/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#815) The Theory of Everything
04/24/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#814) Drop's Out
04/10/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#813) A Thousand Days on Earth
04/03/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#812) Grissom's Divine Comedy
01/10/08 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#811) Bull
12/13/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#810) Lying Down with Dogs
12/06/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#809) Cockroaches
11/22/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#808) You Kill Me
11/15/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#807) Goodbye & Good Luck
11/01/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#806) The Chick Chop Flick Shop
11/08/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#805) Who & What
10/18/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#804) The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp
10/11/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#803) Go To Hell
10/04/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#802) A La Cart
09/27/07 (Th.) 9:00 PM CBS (#801) Dead Doll

So, which other three episodes did you download through bittorrent?


Obveeus

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May 28, 2008, 11:43:30 AM5/28/08
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"Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

You are correct, his attempt to divert the topic into prior years is
irrelevant, just as his attempt to use the 5/25 data point was irrelevant.
The ratings list presented in this thread was for the 07-08 TV season.

>Are we done now?

I hope so. You do understand, now, that Desperate Housewives' placement on
that ratings list was based upon only the airings in its regular Sunday
timeslot and that CSI's placement on the list was based only upon the
airings in its regular Thursday timeslot. Furthermore, I hope you now
understand that the lack of aired in timeslot reruns of Desperate Housewives
is the ONLY reason that it placed above CSI on that list. CSI gets higher
firstrun viewer ratings and CSI gets higher combined (first run and rerun)
viewer ratings.


UCLAN

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May 28, 2008, 3:02:04 PM5/28/08
to
Martin Phipps wrote:

Not at all irrelevant in replying to the statement, "Desperate Housewives,
meanwhile, avoids showing reruns in the Sunday night time slot..." The fact
is that DH *doesn't* "avoid" showing time slot reruns. ABC did so primarily
in January and February of 2008, NOT to avoid poor ratings for DH, but
A) to use DH reruns to plug a Friday programming hole caused by the writers'
strike, and B) to have NEW programming in the lucrative 8pm-10pm slot on
Sunday night (two hours of "Home Makeover"), along with a handful of NEW
episodes of "Brothers & Sisters" in the 10pm-11pm slot. All new programming
on Sunday night during the writers strike. THAT was the reason. In the
non-strike years, such as 2007, ABC aired DH repeats in its normal slot.

It was due to the strike, not to protect DH's ratings - as alleged.

Martin Phipps

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May 28, 2008, 9:16:32 PM5/28/08
to
On May 28, 11:35 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On May 28, 5:07 am, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> FACT: CSI aired 17 new episodes this season
> >Actually 20.  I downloaded them all through bittorrent.
>
> So, which other three episodes did you download through bittorrent?

I'm wrong. I got confused with Smallville. Sorry.

Martin

Ken McElhaney

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May 31, 2008, 9:11:17 PM5/31/08
to
On May 23, 9:43 pm, "Ar Q" <ArthurQ...@hottmail.com> wrote:
> TVR YAR   TVM  YAR*
>     1      1    28.8   11.2    FOX     American Idol (Tue)
>     2      2    27.4   10.7    FOX     American Idol (Wed)
>     3    10    21.7     5.5    ABC     Dancing w. Stars (fall/Mon)
>     4    13    19.6     4.9    ABC     Dancing w. Stars (fall/Tue)
>     4    13    19.6     4.9    ABC     Dancing w. Stars (spring/Mon)
>     6      3    18.2     7.0    ABC     Desperate Housewives
>     7    23    17.5     4.1    ABC     Dancing w. Stars (spring/Tue)

>     8    13    16.9     4.9    CBS     CSI
>     9      4    16.8     6.7    FOX     House
>   10      5    15.6     6.4    ABC     Grey's Anatomy
>   11      8    15.5     6.1    NBC     Sunday Night Football

>   12    12    15.2     5.1    CBS     Survivor: China
>   13      6    14.7     6.2    FOX     The Moment of Truth

>   14    60    14.2     3.0    CBS     NCIS
>   15    20    13.8     4.2    CBS     CSI: Miami
>   16    16    13.6     4.8    CBS     Two and a Half Men
>   16    17    13.6     4.6    CBS     Survivor: Micronesia
>   18    39    13.3     3.5    CBS     Without a Trace
>   19      6    13.1     6.2    NBC     Heroes
>   19    17    13.1     4.6    ABC     Extreme Makeover: HE
>   21      9    13.0     5.6    ABC     Lost

>   22    74    12.9     2.6    CBS     60 Minutes
>   23    43    12.7     3.4    CBS     Criminal Minds
>   24    10    11.9     5.5    FOX     Hell's Kitchen
>   25    30    11.8     3.9    ABC     Samantha Who?

>   25    30    11.8     3.9    CBS     The Amazing Race
>   27    46    11.7     3.3    CBS     CSI: NY
>
> For 2007-2008 season, The Amazing Race is ranked 25th on total viewership,
> 30th among young viewers. How good is this performance? It beats CBS'
> precious CSI:NY which is ranked 27th on total viewers and 46th among young
> viewers.

Meh...your analysis is once again rather curious. Yes, TAR did pretty
well last season due in part to following a stronger than usual NFL
lead. TAR's premiere episode followed Indy/New England which had the
largest ratings for a regular season game in 20 years. Plus, the
"precious" CSI:NY (which I assume isn't as "precious" as CSI itself)
was hit by the writers' strike which affected a LOT of programs. It
would be easier to call the 2007-08 season an abberation and not use
it to judge future seasons unless a writers' strike is in the works
for many springs to come.

> If TAR can maintain its current viewers, we should have many
> seasons to come.

A king-size "DUH!".

I wouldn't be surprised if TAR was limited to the fall so CBS could
try out new programs in the spring. The x-factor in this is just how
long Phil 'n company want to keep doing TAR.

Ken

Rich Piehl

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May 31, 2008, 9:33:04 PM5/31/08
to
Ken McElhaney wrote:
The x-factor in this is just how
> long Phil 'n company want to keep doing TAR.
>
> Ken

Now THAT is a valid question. Both from the physical effort required to
run a race. Plus all of Phil's other projects that he seemed to be
developing over the 12/24 months. Plus just the sheer tedium of it -
they seem to be returning to the same locations quite a bit. Bangkok,
Manila, a few of the cities in India, etc.

Take care,
Rich

God bless the USA
--
Pat Paulsen (1927-1997) for President - 2008

Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
to vote for him as it does for the choices
that we have who are living. At least he's not
going change his position on anything.

Ar Q

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May 31, 2008, 10:52:27 PM5/31/08
to

"Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:q%m0k.55$q97...@newsfe02.lga...

> Ken McElhaney wrote:
> The x-factor in this is just how
> > long Phil 'n company want to keep doing TAR.
> >
> > Ken
>
> Now THAT is a valid question. Both from the physical effort required to
> run a race. Plus all of Phil's other projects that he seemed to be
> developing over the 12/24 months. Plus just the sheer tedium of it -
> they seem to be returning to the same locations quite a bit. Bangkok,
> Manila, a few of the cities in India, etc.
>

I think they have just been to Bangkok three times (Season 1, 2, 9) and
Manila once (Season 5). India is the most popular destination though,
because people there are so poor and camera hungry.


Rich Piehl

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Jun 1, 2008, 12:04:06 AM6/1/08
to

I didn't try to do a destination count but, in general, do you
understand my point?

Ar Q

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Jun 1, 2008, 1:58:02 AM6/1/08
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"Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:%cp0k.299$q97...@newsfe02.lga...

There are only few exotic places on earth. Don't know why you are
complaining with. I think the producers did a great job to include different
locations on each race besides India and China. They have to do India each
time because it is Emmy winning place.


Rich Piehl

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Jun 1, 2008, 8:22:41 AM6/1/08
to

I'm not complaining at all. You've missed my point completely.

My point was that Phil and other key members of the production may tire
of returning to the same locales frequently (India being one of them)
and decide they don't want to be a part of the race anymore.

As far as your comment "There are only few exotic places on earth" I
would strongly disagree. TAR a does an excellent job of going to exotic
places. Mozambique, Senegal, Madagascar, Coober Pedy, the 38th parallel
in Korea, Cape Horn and on and on.

Barbara L Sherrill

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Jun 1, 2008, 10:33:58 AM6/1/08
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"Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:rww0k.2$aP...@newsfe05.lga...

Did you watch TAR10 on Realilty Network? Van Munster said that country's
are begging him to bring TAR to them. Hopefully there are new countries to
visit on this running of TAR..... (personaly; I am tired of South America)

From what I have read in interviews wtih Phil. India is their favorite
country visit and they could go there all the time. There is a reason they
like to go there......

Barbara


Rich Piehl

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Jun 1, 2008, 8:53:24 AM6/1/08
to

No, I didn't see the interview with Van Munster. So, in spite of the
one place suing them (we never did hear any more about that other than
the suit was filed) other places still want them badly.

Did they elaborate on what the reason was for India?

Obveeus

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Jun 1, 2008, 11:06:56 AM6/1/08
to

"Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

> Did they elaborate on what the reason was for India?

I think that AR Q got it right when he suggested that they like India
because the people fall all over themselves to get on camera and to 'help'
the racers.


Barbara L Sherrill

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Jun 1, 2008, 1:23:23 PM6/1/08
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"Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:cZw0k.5$aP...@newsfe05.lga...

For one everyone in the crew loves India. He said it's also one of the
places they all like to go on vacation in as well. He said what makes India
so interesting for the racers is... the shock factor and how they react. He
is completely into the shock factor of life... so it would be fun for him...
lol

I was reading something a few months back and forgot about it until now....
(life has been busy; what can I say)... Phil is getting ready to start
filming a program for Spike this summer.... So he is going to be tied up
with that and whatever he is told to do for CBS.....

Barbara


Barbara Bailey

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Jun 1, 2008, 11:54:27 AM6/1/08
to
"Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote in
news:g1udsc$jia$1...@registered.motzarella.org:

They also like India because of the effect it has on the Racers who make it
that far. It is one country that TPTB can rely on to provide *massive*
culture shock for even the most experienced travelers among the Racers.

The fact that the locals can generally be relied on to be enthusiastic
participants in almost anything is gravy.

Ken McElhaney

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Jun 1, 2008, 1:04:50 PM6/1/08
to
On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, "Barbara L Sherrill"
<barbaralsherr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message

>
> news:cZw0k.5$aP...@newsfe05.lga...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Barbara L Sherrill wrote:
> >> "Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message

> >>news:rww0k.2$aP...@newsfe05.lga...
> >>> Ar Q wrote:
> >>>> "Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message

> >>>>news:%cp0k.299$q97...@newsfe02.lga...
> >>>>> Ar Q wrote:
> >>>>>> "Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in

If what you say is true (not to doubt you, but given the few times
"insider info" has been accurate so far in this here group) , then I'd
venture to guess that TAR will be a "fall-only" series. Which would
make some sense as the photo I saw from their last Emmy win (which
aired before TAR12 started) had what looked like their entire crew &
families on stage, as if this was going to be the last time.

Meh...just a guess.

Ken

Barbara L Sherrill

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Jun 1, 2008, 8:02:37 PM6/1/08
to

"Ken McElhaney" <mcel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f748c41-2dec-44ca...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

Meh...just a guess.


Keep in mind something. They do a lot of taping in the from Mid November to
Mid December. They are in a very active casting call right now. Nearly
everyday I get an email alert about casting calls for TAR 14.
It seems TAR 13 was thrown together at the last minute so I will give them
time to scout locations and such. Apparently from an interview Phil did over
the Christmas Holidays... he has been doing some scouting as he is traveling
around the world for NOW.

I think they would like to be able to take 5 to 6 months put a show
together... lol. Keep in mind during that 6 month time period Mr. and Mrs
Van Munster will travel the final race course twice. During that time they
may change up things up with concering the roadblocks and detours which they
have done several times; during their runs.

Then there is the planning meeting with the attorneys present. Where they
plan out the clues and the which legs are non elimination points and so
on......

Let them have the extra time to plan... lol

Barbara


Message has been deleted

Barbara L Sherrill

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Jun 1, 2008, 8:27:30 PM6/1/08
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"Jeri Jo Thomas" <kata...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.22acfba89...@news.east.earthlink.net...
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 07:53:24 -0500 Rich Piehl
> (rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net) stepped to the mic and said...

>
>> No, I didn't see the interview with Van Munster. So, in spite of the
>> one place suing them (we never did hear any more about that other than
>> the suit was filed) other places still want them badly.
>>
>> Did they elaborate on what the reason was for India?
>>
>>
> What country is suing them and what for? And I can understand going to
> India for the culture shock, if just for the smell alone.
> --
\

I believe it was in Africa. I am wanting to say S2. It was a lady in the
village that was smiling at the camera's and put herself on the front line
of helping... She claims, this has ruined her and she didn't want to do
this... funny how the camera shows something completely different.

Barbara


Ken McElhaney

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Jun 1, 2008, 8:30:25 PM6/1/08
to
On Jun 1, 7:02 pm, "Barbara L Sherrill"
<barbaralsherr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Ken McElhaney" <mcelha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

(stuff snipped)

> Keep in mind something. They do a lot of taping in the from Mid November to
> Mid December.

Ah, more "insider info". Are they going to tape TAR14 between that
time? They certainly didn't tape much last Nov/Dec.

> They are in a very active casting call right now. Nearly
> everyday I get an email alert about casting calls for TAR 14.

I do not doubt the casting calls, that is not an indication as to
exactly when TAR14 will air. Perhaps CBS will shoot for the spring OR
just sit on the episodes 'till next fall.

> It seems TAR 13 was thrown together at the last minute so I will give them
> time to scout locations and such. Apparently from an interview Phil did over
> the Christmas Holidays... he has been doing some scouting as he is traveling
> around the world for NOW.

I wouldn't be surprised if Phil just ups 'n quits one of these shows
he's doing...probably on the spot.

> I think they would like to be able to take 5 to 6 months put a show
> together... lol.  Keep in mind during that 6 month time  period Mr. and Mrs
> Van Munster will travel the final race course twice.  During that time they
> may change up things up with concering the roadblocks and detours which they
> have done several times; during their runs.

Tell them to up the difficulty a bit and get contestants who
understand what maps and a compass is. At least get a few contestants
who have seen an episode or two (no one since TAR7 has, if they say
they did, they are LYING!).

> Then there is the planning meeting with the attorneys present.

Ah, that stack of "don't sue us" forms.

> Where they
> plan out the clues and the which legs are non elimination points and so
> on......

"Okay, so let's get enough decent looking females so they can last
until the New Dehli train ride...yee haw!"

> Let them have the extra time to plan...

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if TAR is just a "fall only"
show. Good in that the quality of it should be high (though if your
"insider info" about TAR13 is any indication, it may not be that good
next time out), bad in that cancellation would be fairly easy for CBS
to do if TAR dips significantly in the ratings (as it would happen
before the taping of a new season could began).

Ken

Rich Piehl

unread,
Jun 1, 2008, 9:24:00 PM6/1/08
to
Jeri Jo Thomas wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 07:53:24 -0500 Rich Piehl
> (rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net) stepped to the mic and said...
>
>> No, I didn't see the interview with Van Munster. So, in spite of the
>> one place suing them (we never did hear any more about that other than
>> the suit was filed) other places still want them badly.
>>
>> Did they elaborate on what the reason was for India?
>>
>>
> What country is suing them and what for? And I can understand going to
> India for the culture shock, if just for the smell alone.

Here's a link to our discussion of it

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.amazing-race/browse_frm/thread/9ad3306688cee99f/a3e50323e9b8019e?hl=en&lnk=st&q=Amazing+Race+Sued+in+Tansania+for+2004+filming#a3e50323e9b8019e

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tcnlb

Hard to believe that discussion was over a year ago already.

Barbara L Sherrill

unread,
Jun 2, 2008, 11:01:03 AM6/2/08
to

"Ken McElhaney" <mcel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e0cf884f-459f-483c...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 1, 7:02 pm, "Barbara L Sherrill"
<barbaralsherr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Ken McElhaney" <mcelha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

(stuff snipped)

> Keep in mind something. They do a lot of taping in the from Mid November
> to
> Mid December.

Ah, more "insider info". Are they going to tape TAR14 between that
time? They certainly didn't tape much last Nov/Dec.

Try fact. More than half the shows were filmed during that time period.
Starting with S1.


> It seems TAR 13 was thrown together at the last minute so I will give them
> time to scout locations and such. Apparently from an interview Phil did
> over
> the Christmas Holidays... he has been doing some scouting as he is
> traveling
> around the world for NOW.

I wouldn't be surprised if Phil just ups 'n quits one of these shows
he's doing...probably on the spot.

Why would Phil quit something he helped put together. Most of these shows he
is doing outside of TAR he had his hands in. Including "After the Climb" he
did for Discovery last year. He has to work when not filming TAR. I doubt
he makes enough to support him and his family plus their 3 homes with what
he makes from TAR.

Barbara


Barbara L Sherrill

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Jun 2, 2008, 11:01:53 AM6/2/08
to

"Rich Piehl" <rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:SYH0k.838$aP1...@newsfe05.lga...

> Jeri Jo Thomas wrote:
>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 07:53:24 -0500 Rich Piehl
>> (rpiehl5REM...@NOSPAMcharter.net) stepped to the mic and said...
>>
>>> No, I didn't see the interview with Van Munster. So, in spite of the
>>> one place suing them (we never did hear any more about that other than
>>> the suit was filed) other places still want them badly.
>>>
>>> Did they elaborate on what the reason was for India?
>>>
>>>
>> What country is suing them and what for? And I can understand going to
>> India for the culture shock, if just for the smell alone.
>
> Here's a link to our discussion of it
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.amazing-race/browse_frm/thread/9ad3306688cee99f/a3e50323e9b8019e?hl=en&lnk=st&q=Amazing+Race+Sued+in+Tansania+for+2004+filming#a3e50323e9b8019e
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4tcnlb
>
> Hard to believe that discussion was over a year ago already.
>
> Take care,
> Rich
>

It will come back again.. You know that. Just like S6 and the horrible
people keep coming back up for discussion....

Barbara


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