Michel Fourniret Case in Belgium (BBC and News24)
Alex
- His crimes are very similar in nature and time to those
of Marc Dutroux. It's I think extremely rare for a small
country like Belgium to have even one serial killer at a
time on the loose. However, these two seem to have
operated in the same area, at the same time, and exactly
the same types of victims (early to mid-teenage girls).
Coincidence?
- It's very rare for serial killers to work together, but if
they did, then it puts a different light on the Dutroux case;
it would make it more likely he didn't operate totally on his
own as was claimed.
-
Alex
*******************************************
From the BBC, at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3854413.stm
Frenchman 'admits child murders'
Belgian prosecutors say a French forestry worker has admitted
killing six girls in France and Belgium.
The suspect, Michel Fourniret, 62, has been in custody since being
arrested on kidnapping and abuse charges last June.
His victims are thought to include 12-year-old Elisabeth Brichet, who
went missing near Namur, Belgium, in 1989.
The reports come days after Belgian child killer Marc Dutroux was
sentenced to life in prison for the kidnap, rape and murder of young
girls.
The prosecutor for the city of Liege, Anne Thily, said Fourniret had
carried out the killings between 1987 and 2001.
The breakthrough by Belgium and French authorities came when
Fourniret's estranged wife said her husband could have killed up to nine
children, according to Belgian media.
The father of Elisabeth Brichet told Belgium's VRT television he hoped
police had finally found his daughter's killer.
"I am awaiting confirmation from the prosecutors' office," he said. "I
just want to know the truth."
**************************************************
From News24 at:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0%2C%2C2-10-1462_1551440%2C00.html
Child killer made home a grave
01/07/2004 19:57 - (SA)
Donchery, France - A 62-year-old French forestry worker who
has confessed to killing six girls in France and Belgium on Thursday
admitted to burying two of his victims at his former home, French
prosecutors said.
Michel Fourniret told French investigators during questioning in
Belgium that he had buried two girls at a chateau that he once
owned in the heavily wooded Ardennes border region, said
Reims prosecutor Yves Charpenel.
Police were patrolling the Sautou chateau in Donchery on Thursday
to "secure the site" and were expected to begin searching for the
bodies, Charpenel explained.
Fourniret, who has been in Belgian custody since June 2003 on
suspicion of abduction of minors and sexual misconduct, on
Wednesday confessed to "six murders of girls" in Belgium
and France between 1987 and 2001.
But Belgian prosecutor Anne Thily hinted that he could be
responsible for the deaths of about 10 victims, several of
whom were believed to be buried on the grounds of the
chateau.
Wife alleges more murders
The shocking revelations came barely a week after child murderer
and rapist Marc Dutroux was sentenced to life imprisonment at the
end of a harrowing 17-week trial that reopened the most sordid
chapter in Belgium's history.
Dutroux was found guilty of the abduction and rape of six girls in
the mid-1990s, four of whom died.
One of Fourniret's victims was 12-year-old Elisabeth Brichet, whose
mother was a founder and leader of the so-called White Movement
launched by the parents of missing Belgian children after Dutroux's
arrest in 1996.
The Frenchman has confessed to kidnapping, trying to rape and
ultimately strangling Brichet, Belgian prosecutors said.
Fourniret's wife Monique Olivier, who had given investigators details
about the rapes and killings, has also accused her husband of murdering
an adult and two other girls who went missing during that time period
in eastern France.
Police said on Thursday that Fourniret had admitted killing the adult
woman, but Belgian prosecutors said he had denied any involvement
in the disappearance of the two girls.
Fourniret received a seven-year sentence in 1987 from a French court
at Essonne near Paris for rape and indecent assault on minors.
Edited by Anthea Jonathan
Alan Hope
>A couple of odd things about this case:
>- His crimes are very similar in nature and time to those
>of Marc Dutroux. It's I think extremely rare for a small
>country like Belgium to have even one serial killer at a
>time on the loose. However, these two seem to have
>operated in the same area, at the same time, and exactly
>the same types of victims (early to mid-teenage girls).
>Coincidence?
They're only very superficially similar. Fourniret did most of his
crimes in France, and not only in his home region. One girl was taken
in Belgium, and another may have been an au pair from Brussels who was
nevertheless living in France at the time.
As far as he's admitted until now, he was inactive between 1990 and
2000, which means he doesn't coincide with Dutroux at all.
Investigators are skeptical about the claimed period of inactivity,
with good reason.
>- It's very rare for serial killers to work together, but if
>they did, then it puts a different light on the Dutroux case;
>it would make it more likely he didn't operate totally on his
>own as was claimed.
>From the BBC, at:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3854413.stm
>Frenchman 'admits child murders'
>Belgian prosecutors say a French forestry worker has admitted
>killing six girls in France and Belgium.
>The suspect, Michel Fourniret, 62, has been in custody since being
>arrested on kidnapping and abuse charges last June.
>His victims are thought to include 12-year-old Elisabeth Brichet, who
>went missing near Namur, Belgium, in 1989.
>The reports come days after Belgian child killer Marc Dutroux was
>sentenced to life in prison for the kidnap, rape and murder of young
>girls.
>The prosecutor for the city of Liege, Anne Thily, said Fourniret had
>carried out the killings between 1987 and 2001.
>The breakthrough by Belgium and French authorities came when
>Fourniret's estranged wife said her husband could have killed up to nine
>children, according to Belgian media.
>The father of Elisabeth Brichet told Belgium's VRT television he hoped
>police had finally found his daughter's killer.
>"I am awaiting confirmation from the prosecutors' office," he said. "I
>just want to know the truth."
Elisabeth's body was found on Saturday evening, together with that of
another girl, Jeanne-Marie Desramault, also missing since 1989.
>**************************************************
>From News24 at:
>http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0%2C%2C2-10-1462_1551440%2C00.html
>Wife alleges more murders
>Edited by Anthea Jonathan
--
AH
Alex
> Alex goes:
>
> >A couple of odd things about this case:
>
> >- His crimes are very similar in nature and time to those
> >of Marc Dutroux. It's I think extremely rare for a small
> >country like Belgium to have even one serial killer at a
> >time on the loose. However, these two seem to have
> >operated in the same area, at the same time, and exactly
> >the same types of victims (early to mid-teenage girls).
> >Coincidence?
>
> They're only very superficially similar. Fourniret did most of his
> crimes in France, and not only in his home region. One girl was taken
> in Belgium, and another may have been an au pair from Brussels who was
> nevertheless living in France at the time.
>
> As far as he's admitted until now, he was inactive between 1990 and
> 2000, which means he doesn't coincide with Dutroux at all.
> Investigators are skeptical about the claimed period of inactivity,
> with good reason.
He was in jail, because he'd tried to abduct another girl recently,
which is not inactive at all. The only reason he was caught (and she
survived) at all is because she managed escape from his van.
Look, how many serial killers does Belgium have? This isn't a
a huge country. There was one serial killer in Groningen (Holland)
who killed prostitutes, and that was years ago.
They targeted the same victims (young girls, which is unusual),
they were both active in Belgium. That doesn't sound
superficial to me at all.
Alex
John Stevens
below
http://www.stelling.nl/kleintje/actueel/OSAD1088778542.html
Jan Portein, the author of this article, is spot on. And we have
already had to put up with lies from the Belgian Minister of Justice
Onkelinx, and the Procurer du Roi of Dinant. The authorities in
Belgium are now all reading from the same prayer book, i.e. 'We knew
nothing, this is why Fourniret was able to get a part-time job as a
school taker, the French authorities did not tell us anything, a
European-wide system for criminal records cannot come fast enough...'
The precise facts are the following. This information comes from the
DVD's of the Dutroux case file.
The Dinant Gendarmerie obtained a search warrant and searched
Fourniret's house on 25 April 1995, between 05:00 and 08:00. Following
this, Fourniret's wife Madame Olivier made a declaration between 15:00
and 15:30. It would be very interesrting to know the contents of this
declaration.
They did this is cooperation with the French authorities based in
Reims.
At least one witness statement concerning Fourniret was drawn up by
Vannesse.
Because the house search was a joint effort with the French
authorities, a great deal of information would have been exchanged by
both sides. To suggest that the French would have withhold
information, at this point, about a 7 year jail sentence for child
rape, is simply not credible. And in any case, the Procureur du Roi is
claiming that Fourniret is completely unknown to the Belgian police
(for any reason whatsoever) and that is certainly not true.
The information I refer to can be found on DVD No2, in file
000013B7.pdf (pages 13, 14 et 42).
The reference to this Fourniret-relaetd information is No 8269/00,
drawn up by the Police Judiciaire of Neufchateau on 25 July 2000,
which was an addition to documents 10458/96, 8621/98 and 8226/00.
The policeman Gérard Vannesse played a major part in these Fourniret
operations. Belgium is of course a very small country, a fact that
Alan Hope has quite correctly underlined in the past. Nevertheless,
this fact does make me curious. Vannesse waa of course the policeman
who was controversially involved with Nihoul, when Nihoul was
simulataneously a drug dealer and police informer for Vannesse.
Vannesse is now dead, of course.
One little-known fact, but which has always bothered me, are the
sado-masochist tendancies of Vannesse. He was yet another close of
contact of Nihoul who was involved in sado-masochism in some way. We
know this about Vannesse because the Neufchateau investigators found
some very interesting home movies when they searched Vannesse's house.
The movies were not ilegal, they featured consenting adults, including
Vannesse, but this would certainly have been a common topic of
conversation for Vannesse and Nihoul.
You may recall that one of the topics of conversation between Nihoul
and Dutroux was the possible opening of a sado-masochistic club. And
Nihoul was a close contact of Roxanne (and Nihoul's present companion
worked for 'her' for a time), a transvestite sado-masochistic
prostitute who has her own film-making business, films that were (and
still are) regularly seized by the authorities all over Europe.
Now the sado-masochism included not only Vannesse, but also his wife.
Given the behaviour of Fourniret and his wife, I would be very
interested to know what the contacts between these couples were.
Especially if it turns out that Vannesse drew up police statements
concerning Fourniret, but these these statements subsequently
'disappeared'.
Finally, just to make things clear, I do not think for one moment that
there is a connection between Dutroux/Nihoul, and Fourniret. But I am
not prepared to take the word of the Belgian authorities on this
point.
Alan Hope
>They targeted the same victims (young girls, which is unusual),
>they were both active in Belgium. That doesn't sound
>superficial to me at all.
Fourniret carried out one kidnapping in Belgium, and the rest in
France. Even when he was living in Belgium, he was operating in
France.
In any case, I'm having trouble understanding what point you're
making. There's no suggestion the two men ever had any contact. You
could probably draw up a list of similarities between you and me if
you wanted to. What would it prove?
--
AH
Alan Hope
>http://www.stelling.nl/kleintje/actueel/OSAD1088778542.html
That's a fair comment.
>The information I refer to can be found on DVD No2, in file
>000013B7.pdf (pages 13, 14 et 42).
>The reference to this Fourniret-relaetd information is No 8269/00,
>drawn up by the Police Judiciaire of Neufchateau on 25 July 2000,
>which was an addition to documents 10458/96, 8621/98 and 8226/00.
>The policeman Gérard Vannesse played a major part in these Fourniret
>operations. Belgium is of course a very small country, a fact that
>Alan Hope has quite correctly underlined in the past. Nevertheless,
>this fact does make me curious. Vannesse waa of course the policeman
>who was controversially involved with Nihoul, when Nihoul was
>simulataneously a drug dealer and police informer for Vannesse.
>Vannesse is now dead, of course.
I'd draw the line at jumping to conclusions based on the fact that a
policeman who was involved with one criminal was also involved with
another. It's in the nature of police work, let's be honest, for
officers to come into contact with criminals. You can't tie one to
another using a copper as cord.
In addition, Dinant is pretty tiny. Just as Connerotte in Neufchateau
was linked to the GIA, the Cools murder and the Dutroux case, by
virtue of his jurisdiction being small enough for one magistrate to
get it all to handle, so Vannesse was probably involved, in some way,
with most of the cases that passed through his office.
This is the trouble I often find with conspiracy theories: one sort of
link is as good as any other, in the construction of a chain of
contact. But that's not true with chains or with evidence. It should
be obvious that linking two people because they both had their collars
felt by the same Plod is a non-starter.
>One little-known fact, but which has always bothered me, are the
>sado-masochist tendancies of Vannesse. He was yet another close of
>contact of Nihoul who was involved in sado-masochism in some way. We
>know this about Vannesse because the Neufchateau investigators found
>some very interesting home movies when they searched Vannesse's house.
>The movies were not ilegal, they featured consenting adults, including
>Vannesse, but this would certainly have been a common topic of
>conversation for Vannesse and Nihoul.
I don't see how. It's far more likely that Vannesse, having sussed the
kind of character Nihoul was, kept his mouth shut about his
proclivities in order not to provide Nihoul with any leverage.
>You may recall that one of the topics of conversation between Nihoul
>and Dutroux was the possible opening of a sado-masochistic club.
Well no, it wasn't, actually. What they discussed -- and this is
according to Nihoul -- was a brothel using girls brought in from
Eastern Europe. No mention of SM.
>And
>Nihoul was a close contact of Roxanne (and Nihoul's present companion
>worked for 'her' for a time), a transvestite sado-masochistic
>prostitute who has her own film-making business, films that were (and
>still are) regularly seized by the authorities all over Europe.
>Now the sado-masochism included not only Vannesse, but also his wife.
>Given the behaviour of Fourniret and his wife, I would be very
>interested to know what the contacts between these couples were.
Why assume there were any at all? For Vannesse to feel free to discuss
these matters with Nihoul, you'd have to assume he was a confederate.
If not, he'd be guaranteed to say nothing. You can't, however, use a
premise based on an assumption that he's a confederate to show that
he's a confederate.
>Especially if it turns out that Vannesse drew up police statements
>concerning Fourniret, but these these statements subsequently
>'disappeared'.
There's not the slightest indication Fourniret and Olivier were
involved in sex-parties, SM, videos or anything of the sort.
Vannesse was a gendarme, John. He no doubt took statements about all
sorts of crimes. You can't be suggesting that indicates he was
involved in all of them?
>Finally, just to make things clear, I do not think for one moment that
>there is a connection between Dutroux/Nihoul, and Fourniret. But I am
>not prepared to take the word of the Belgian authorities on this
>point.
Nor should you, in the light of all that's gone before. But neither
should you err on the other side.
--
AH
Alex
> Alex, as I assume you are, or can read, Dutch, take a look at the link
> below http://www.stelling.nl/kleintje/actueel/OSAD1088778542.html
Sure. For everyone else, I'll translate:
" From: http://www.stelling.nl/kleintje/actueel/OSAD1088778542.html
Lies In Belgium
Friday, July 2, 2004
" Talk about lying. Belgian police stated never to have heard of the
pedofile past of Michel Fourniret in France. That's why "Dutroux 2",
after sitting out his sentence, without much fanfare could move to
Belgium and continue his activities there.
" But what do we read in the part of the Dutroux file that is available
to us? That on April 25th, 1996 - before the Dutroux affair became
public - the Dinant police turned mister Fourniret's house upside down.
After contact with the CRI in Reims. On that occasion, the man's wife
was questioned and her statement recorded for posterity. What happened
to that statement is an interesting question. Or what it contained. We
can assume that the Dinant police didn't spring into action because the
French CRI suspected Fourniret of bicycle theft. Especially after his
pedofile history had been faxed over from Reims to Dinant. In other
words: Belgian justice absolutely knew who Fourniret was, but for
one reason or another, after the raid, lost interest in the French
migrant.
" It is interesting that Gérard Vanness, one of the detectives involved
with the Fourniret case, was Nihoul's contact at the Dinant police
and who played a role in the David Walsh case. We never shy away
from speculation, but so far there has been little to tie the Fourniret
case to Dutroux. "
> Jan Portein, the author of this article, is spot on. And we have
> already had to put up with lies from the Belgian Minister of Justice
> Onkelinx, and the Procurer du Roi of Dinant. The authorities in
> Belgium are now all reading from the same prayer book, i.e. 'We knew
> nothing, this is why Fourniret was able to get a part-time job as a
> school taker, the French authorities did not tell us anything, a
> European-wide system for criminal records cannot come fast enough...'
> The precise facts are the following. This information comes from the
> DVD's of the Dutroux case file.
> The Dinant Gendarmerie obtained a search warrant and searched
> Fourniret's house on 25 April 1995, between 05:00 and 08:00. Following
> this, Fourniret's wife Madame Olivier made a declaration between 15:00
> and 15:30. It would be very interesrting to know the contents of this
> declaration.
>They did this is cooperation with the French authorities based in
>Reims.
I still think there might be a connection between Dutroux and Fourniret.
They're just too similar.
Alex
John Stevens
> policeman who was involved with one criminal was also involved with
> another.
Yes, me too. I had merely said that I was curious at this stage.
> It should be obvious that linking two people because they both had their
> collars felt by the same Plod is a non-starter.
When the procureur du roi of Dinant says that Fourniret was unknown to
the Belgian police, but it turns out that he was, and the name of one
of the policemen involved is Vannesse, then things becomes
interesting, for me at least. I hope that journalists in Belgium (and
in Holland, because journalists there have picked up on this angle, in
addition to Jan Portein) pursue this.
> I don't see how. It's far more likely that Vannesse, having sussed the
> kind of character Nihoul was, kept his mouth shut about his
> proclivities in order not to provide Nihoul with any leverage.
For me, this is less likely. But of course we will never know the
truth.
> Well no, it wasn't, actually. What they discussed -- and this is
> according to Nihoul -- was a brothel using girls brought in from
> Eastern Europe. No mention of SM.
Did I make a mistake there? I thought SM came up in their
conversations. I'll check that and get back to you.
> Why assume there were any at all? For Vannesse to feel free to discuss
> these matters with Nihoul, you'd have to assume he was a confederate.
Not really. It could just be mens' talk, at first. I believe that
Nihoul was as good a manipulator as Dutroux. In my opinion, and of
course I have no evidence of this, he would make it his business to
find out about Vannesse's vulnerabilities, and store this knowledge
away for possible future use.
> There's not the slightest indication Fourniret and Olivier were
> involved in sex-parties, SM, videos or anything of the sort.
You are right about Fourniret and Olivier, so far. But we are going to
learn a lot more about them in the new future. And for me personally,
I would like to know what, if any, contacts Vannesse and his wife had
with this couple. The answer is, almost certainly, none. But I would
like to know.
I want to know what happened to the p.v.'s that Vannesse drew up. If
the procureur du roi du Dinant says publically that Fourniret was
unknown to the Belgian police, but it turns out that the Dinant
Gendarmerie raided his house, and Vannesse drew up p.v.'s, then
something has to give,
And I think you know as well as I do that one of Belgium's favorite
party tricks, over the years, is make p.v.'s, videos, diaries etc
'disappear'. Several parliamentary enquiries, over the years, have
shown that.
My point is, maybe the procureur was correct, and Fourniret was
'unknown'. In that case, the question is 'Why?'
Incidentally, the only reason we know about the existence of these
p.v.s, is because the Dutroux investigators raided the headquarters of
the Gendarmerie in Dinant. References to the police raid on Fourniret
were found in Vannesse's diary, and copies of p.v.s concerning
Fourniret were found in a cardboard box. In other words, we are very,
very lucky to know about this.
I am not 100% sure of this, but I believe the name Fourniret only
emerged because of the Optical Character Recognition, performed in
England, that was done on the contents of the Dutroux DVD's. It was
this, in combination with a simple search on the word 'Fourniret',
that allowed the references to the police raid, and pv's, to emerge.
> Vannesse was a gendarme, John. He no doubt took statements about all
> sorts of crimes. You can't be suggesting that indicates he was
> involved in all of them?
Not at all. And it is perfectly logical that Vannesse should have been
involved in the Fourniret operations. But I very strongly believe that
Nihoul is a corrupting influence. They met on at least 10 different
occasions, and phoned each other 62 times (I think that is the right
number) over the course of a year. They got to know each other well.
*Anyone*, policeman or otherwise, that was in close contact with
Nihoul for a long period of time, deserves careful scrutiny.
> Nor should you, in the light of all that's gone before. But neither
> should you err on the other side.
My confidence in the Belgian authorities, in investigations of this
type, is zero. The only reason they caught Founiret, I understand, was
because the 13-year old girl that escaped, managed to note the
registration number of Fourniret's van (my understanding is based on a
single newspaper report).
As I said, I will be extremely surprised if any connections arise
between Fourniret and Dutroux/Nihoul. But my hope is that journalists
in, and outside, Belgium, will examine all possibilities. Joint
press-conferences, hosted by Anne Thily and the procureurs du roi of
Dinant and Namur, are not sufficient to inspire confidence.
John Stevens
I saw that De Morgen newspaper in Belgium took up this story very
prominently on their front page yesterday (5 July). And they have
followed it up with another front page story today revealing
interesting stuff about Fourniret.
triumvir
>
> Look, how many serial killers does Belgium have? This isn't a
> a huge country.
An even more appropriate question would be "How many serial killers
does Wallonia have?". All the major scandals happen in the south.
Alex
"triumvir" <exo...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:104868e0.04070...@posting.google.com...
Right, all the people in question are French speaking, making
the region even smaller. And, most Belgians live in Flanders.
Alex
Alan Hope
>Nice translation :-)
I don't know if Douglas De Coninck of De Morgen has your Optical
Character recognition, but I do know his knowledge of those DVDs is
unparalleled anywhere. I shouldn't be surprised (I haven't spoken to
him lately) if his memory wasn't simply triggered by Fourniret's name,
leading him to something he saw in passing. He'll be making a lot of
the running on this case, I predict. He's quite a specimen.
--
AH
The address shown is obviously not valid. Use Reply To.
John Stevens
his website
http://www.stelling.nl/kleintje
He ran the story last Friday (2 July), well before anyone else did.
And his source of information is the enhanced DVD's.
But you are right; Douglas De Conninck's encyclopaedic knowledge may
well have been sufficient on its own.
Jan Portein's website is closely followed in Holland and, I suspect,
in Flanders. Stories he runs get picked up fairly quickly by the more
mainstream media. He plays a very valuable role here, although he is
unknown, and therefore unappreciated, by most people.
Two examples are:
1. The series he ran 'Nihoul en de pillen' about the original source
of the famous ecstacy pills. This was, of course, Erik DIJKMAN in
Alkmaar. Up to now we knew very little about Erik. But this story was
picked up the Alkmaar local paper and an article published on this
angle. I know that the local journalist did a lot of good research,
but the final article was very limited in scope. Pity.
2. The LIPPENS brothers, Maurice and Leopold, in Knokke that I have
discussed in another thread. Again, Jan Portein, in 'Adel Verplicht',
published many allegations about the brothers, and named the brothers
explicitly (the first media organisation anywhere that dared to do
so). These articles were taken up by PARTY magazine in the 7 June 2004
editon, a publication that is better known for publishing lurid
stories about soap opera stars and other minor celebrities. Maurice
LIPPENS got to hear about it very quickly, and called in his lawyers.
The lawyers wanted all copies to be withdrawn, but the judge refused.
PARTY was, however, fined 12,500 Euro's, and forced to print a
correction in the following week's edition. The defence of PARTY in
court was.. they had obtained their information from the Kleintje
Muurkrant.
Unfortunately, PARTY magazine was not inclined in this case to make a
fight of it. They had simply printed the story (like most of their
stories) without being unduly concerned whether it was true or not.
When challenged in court, they simply backed down, apart from
resisting the attempt to withdraw all copies from circulation.