Zantop: Tulloch Tells Inmate of Thrill Kill
Maggie
Tulloch told inmate of `thrill kill': Source: Duo posed as students
by Franci Richardson
Robert Tulloch has told at least one jailhouse inmate that he and his best
friend, posing as students working on an environmental project, knocked on the
door of a Dartmouth College couple to gain entrance and then hacked the two to
death, the Herald has learned.
The stunning revelation that Tulloch, 18, and his buddy, James Parker, 17, knew
Half and Susanne Zantop were inside their Etna, N.H., home and that they
appealed to Half Zantop's earth science expertise to get in the door Jan. 27
suggests the couple was targeted for robbery, if not a thrill kill.
``It was originally planned as a burglary or robbery and then it kind of turned
into a thrill kill,'' the source said.
``Tulloch told (the inmate) they knocked on the door and said they were
Dartmouth students doing a research project on environmental studies,'' a
source said.
``Half answered and invited them in. Half turns away and (Tulloch) leaps up and
slices his throat.''
It's unclear how much time elapsed between the teens entering the house and the
beginning of the murders. But when Susanne Zantop rushed into the study from
making lunch in the kitchen and found her husband in a pool of blood, the two
Chelsea, Vt., teens then turned their knives on her. ``She saw what had
happened and then they went after her,'' the source said. ``She was stabbed a
lot.''
Prosecutors gleaned this information from at least one Grafton County Jail
inmate, whom Tulloch took into his confidence.
The superintendent of the Grafton County Jail, where Tulloch has been held
since February, didn't return calls yesterday. Richard Guerriero, Tulloch's
attorney, offered no comment.
``I'm not going to comment on any of the facts outside the courtroom,'' he
said.
Kelly Ayotte, senior assistant New Hampshire attorney general, also didn't
return calls.
Half Zantop, a 62-year-old accomplished earth science professor, and his wife,
Susanne, 55, head of the German department, were found dead about 6:30 p.m. in
the study of their home by a friend who came for dinner.
Questions still linger over why the two teens would order knives over the
Internet and then, weeks later, drive nearly 50 miles to the Zantops' remote
home in a rural hamlet three miles from the Ivy League school. The new
information from the source calls into question whether the motive in the
mysterious murders is actually robbery, as state prosecutors maintained in a
press release last month.
But many of the Zantops' friends have blasted a plea agreement the state gave
Parker, calling him equally culpable as Tulloch and insisting the motive was a
thrill kill.
``It's not a robbery because nothing was taken,'' Dr. Eric Manheimer, the
medical director at Bellevue Hospital in New York, has told the Herald. ``They
knew (the Zantops) were in the house. Why would you take these kinds of knives
on a robbery?
``It was a blood-lust killing,'' the Zantops' friend said. ``They wanted to see
what it felt like to kill people. They didn't know them.''
Ayotte has said that the state's investigation has turned up no connection
between the Zantops and Parker or Tulloch. Early last month, Parker struck a
deal with the state that allowed him to plead guilty to being an accomplice to
the second-degree murder of Susanne Zantop, a felony punishable by 25 years to
life in prison.
Parker admitted to prosecutors around the time they gave him the plea bargain
that he administered the fatal blow to Susanne Zantop. He'll be sentenced after
he testifies against Tulloch as the state's key witness. Tulloch faces life in
prison when he goes on trial for the first-degree murders of both Zantops April
22. He plans to use the insanity defense at trial.
Prosecutors have since secured two additional murder-one indictments against
Tulloch, which accused him of killing the Zantops during the course of a
robbery.
Maggie
"There are no stupid questions. There are, however, many inquisitive idiots."
-- Unknown
SteveF
prison inmate the details of this crime?
Steve
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20020124085915...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Hownow
> >
> > Questions still linger over why the two teens would order knives over the
> > Internet and then, weeks later, drive nearly 50 miles to the Zantops'
> remote
> > home in a rural hamlet three miles from the Ivy League school.
The pair travelling 50 miles on a January day is not surprising given
that the Zantop home is not remote but located along the busy road from
Hanover to one of the region's largest public ski facilities - the
Dartmouth Skyway, which offered early Saturday morning student rates.
As skiers, they were likely quite familiar with the location and
probably often passed by the Zantop home when heading to apres-ski teen
activity in Hanover -- like to the nearest Mcdonalds.
- hm
Maggie
>prison inmate the details of this crime?
>Steve
***Yep.
SteveF
A local resident, who is in another forum group, says that Trescott Road
would not at all be a likely route to or from the Skyway.
In addition, the Herald article's *source* claims that they targeted Half
Zantop because of his interest in environmental issues. If the story is true
they had to have gotten information on Half before they went to his house.
Steve
"Hownow" <theh...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:240120021708447673%theh...@cogeco.ca...
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
> >Do you really think that Tulloch would be so stupid as to tell another
> >prison inmate the details of this crime?
> >Steve
>
> ***Yep.
*** and the reason would be? to make friends? to establish his macho image?
to relieve his conscience? just ordinary prison talk?
Don't you think that his lawyers would have told him "under no
circumstances do you talk to anyone about this case"?
Steve
Hownow
SteveF <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote:
> hm,
> A local resident, who is in another forum group, says that Trescott Road
> would not at all be a likely route to or from the Skyway.
> In addition, the Herald article's *source* claims that they targeted Half
> Zantop because of his interest in environmental issues. If the story is true
> they had to have gotten information on Half before they went to his house.
>
> Steve
Well, perhaps.
But if you come down from Chelsea Vt. on I-91 to Exit 13 and across the
bridge past Dartmouth College and along Wheelock Street and straight
along Trescott Rd. you'd run into Etna Rd and from there to the Skiway.
Not my directions but one supplied by an Etna Road Bed and Breakfast as
the simplest way to their premises from Exit 13 or Dartmouth College.
- hm
.
Maggie
>hm,
>A local resident, who is in another forum group, says that Trescott Road
>would not at all be a likely route to or from the Skyway.
>In addition, the Herald article's *source* claims that they targeted Half
>Zantop because of his interest in environmental issues. If the story is
>true
>they had to have gotten information on Half before they went to his house.
**Not necessarily. Do we have any idea what sort of insignia the Zantops may
have had on the back of their car? I'm imagining a Sierra Club or Save the
Earth bumper or window sticker.
SteveF
I don't personally know the area around Dartmouth although when i lived in
Massachusetts I spent many days skiing in Vermont and nearby White Mtns. The
local I mentioned (this was many months ago when we discussed this, because
I had the same thoughts that you did) convinced me that nobody from Chelsea
would take Trescott to get to Skiway. Trescott is a very long, winding and
slow road. Not at all what a teenager would like.
Steve
"Hownow" <theh...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:240120021811536510%theh...@cogeco.ca...
Maggie
>news:20020124171224...@mb-fo.aol.com...
>> >Do you really think that Tulloch would be so stupid as to tell another
>> >prison inmate the details of this crime?
>> >Steve
>>
>> ***Yep.
>
>*** and the reason would be? to make friends? to establish his macho image?
>to relieve his conscience? just ordinary prison talk?
>Don't you think that his lawyers would have told him "under no
>circumstances do you talk to anyone about this case"?
***Well, just for starters, he *is* claiming to be mentally ill. If he really
is somehow impaired, that would pretty much explain talking to someone about
the crime, wouldn't it? And if he's not mentally ill......well, he's a smart
guy--maybe it's a strategy to get the dumbest possible jurors he can (ones that
don't read the papers). Or maybe the plan is to make himself *appear* mentally
ill (gee, who'd be crazy enough to *tell* someone he thrill-killed a couple of
old people???). Maybe he knows Parker's going to spill the beans so figures he
can talk about anything he wants--if the details are going to get out anyway,
he can soften the blow by putting some time between when jurors find out about
it and when they start deliberating. And, if you know anything about thrill
killers, you know they love to revisit their crimes. Maybe he just couldn't
stop himself from blabbing.
SteveF
I'm not disputing they knew the Zantops I think they did. I am just saying
it wasn't a driveby encounter. The most logical link was Mrs. Ward who owned
the house T & P broke into in Chelsea and who turned them into the police.
Mrs. Ward was also a caretaker of Prof Stoiber who was a close friend of
Half Zantop. Mrs. Ward knew the Zantops. There are 4 or 5 other ways they
could have linked up.
Steve
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20020124181915...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Hownow
SteveF <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote:
> hm.
> I don't personally know the area around Dartmouth although when i lived in
> Massachusetts I spent many days skiing in Vermont and nearby White Mtns. The
> local I mentioned (this was many months ago when we discussed this, because
> I had the same thoughts that you did) convinced me that nobody from Chelsea
> would take Trescott to get to Skiway. Trescott is a very long, winding and
> slow road. Not at all what a teenager would like.
>
> Steve
>
Perhaps.
But it's the shortest route. Perhaps could even be the quickest ... I
don't know.
And it is certainly not, as the article suggests, "remote".
A large, popular hotel -- the Hanover Inn -- is located along there.
And I certainly don't take anything a poster to any crime-related forum
says as gospel; or that they actually reside in any town they say they
do.
- hm
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
I admit you have a point if he was doing it to establish his insanity. He
knows that Parker says it was a robbery so if he suddenly slashes Half's
throat for no reason that would establish an insanity question. But, he
seems to have gotten the facts wrong according to the police reports as to
the sequence of Half's throat cut. The M.E. said Half was dead before his
knife was cut.
I think Tulloch is a lot smarter than we know about so I wouldn't put
anything past him in terms of his ability to establish scenarios for his own
protection, but his lawyers must know and must have told him that winning an
insanity verdict is almost impossible in NH and probably worse than spending
life in prison. I have read reports of just how deplorable criminal mental
facilities are there and nobody would want to be in that situation. His best
defense would have been (before parkers plea and subsequent state witness
status) to let the jury hear the AG testimony and evidence and without a
motive he had a 50 - 50 chance of being acquited. That is now in the past so
he really doesn't have much hope at all.
Steve
SteveF
well i know this poster. she is a faculty member at Dartmouth and she has
visited the Zantops house and has pictures of the house and street. There
are nearby rocks (velvet rocks) that are tourist attractions and popular
with amateur rock climbers, and the Appalachian trail runs right behind
their house. I am not doubting that the kids may have traveled down that
road, but its more likely that they knew of the Zantops from some mutual
acquaintance.
At the time I think I got onto Mapquest to prove to myself that they
wouldn't have traveled that road to get to Skiway.
Steve
"Hownow" <theh...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:240120021844555269%theh...@cogeco.ca...
Hownow
SteveF <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote:
> hm
> well i know this poster. she is a faculty member at Dartmouth and she has
> visited the Zantops house and has pictures of the house and street. There
> are nearby rocks (velvet rocks) that are tourist attractions and popular
> with amateur rock climbers, and the Appalachian trail runs right behind
> their house
> .
So not just a "poster in another forum but someone you know. Okay.
Her living there means little about how someone else might get to the
Skiway. There are at least three routes in.
> I am not doubting that the kids may have traveled down that
> road,
Your original 'expert' reply post certainly cast doubt.
> but its more likely that they knew of the Zantops from some mutual
> acquaintance.
I never said they didn't.
And that was not the point of my original post trying to put
perspective on the Boston Herald article which questioned how two teens
could drive 50 miles to a remote home. Most everybody but locals drives
50 miles to a ski area and the Zantop home is not remote.
- hm
SteveF
***
It seems to me that the Herald article was implying that the reason they
drove the 50 miles was because they knew the Zantops.
The Zantop home is remote.
Steve
Hownow
SteveF <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote:
Apparently not so remote that this pair had any problem finding it.
Or that neighbours might have seen a car roaring out of the driveway
the previous afternoon.
- hm
SteveF
> > ***
> > It seems to me that the Herald article was implying that the reason they
> > drove the 50 miles was because they knew the Zantops.
> > The Zantop home is remote.
> >
> > Steve
>
> Apparently not so remote that this pair had any problem finding it.
> Or that neighbours might have seen a car roaring out of the driveway
> the previous afternoon.
>
> - hm
go to mapquest and type in Trecott road NH.. its easy to find with a map.
these guys are computer literate.
Steve
Hownow
SteveF <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote:
A couple of miles up the road from the Hanover Inn is not remote.
If the road in front of the house is paved and plowed it is not remote.
If there is a mail box in front of the house it is not remote.
If the person who delivers the local newspaper drops the Saturday
edition in that mail box it is not remote.
It's rural.
- hm
SteveF
ok its not remote. its rural
Steve
Mare
> I admit you have a point if he was doing it to establish his insanity. He
> knows that Parker says it was a robbery so if he suddenly slashes Half's
> throat for no reason that would establish an insanity question. But, he
> seems to have gotten the facts wrong according to the police reports as to
> the sequence of Half's throat cut. The M.E. said Half was dead before his
> knife was cut.
> I think Tulloch is a lot smarter than we know about so I wouldn't put
> anything past him in terms of his ability to establish scenarios for his own
> protection, but his lawyers must know and must have told him that winning an
> insanity verdict is almost impossible in NH and probably worse than spending
> life in prison. I have read reports of just how deplorable criminal mental
> facilities are there and nobody would want to be in that situation. His best
> defense would have been (before parkers plea and subsequent state witness
> status) to let the jury hear the AG testimony and evidence and without a
> motive he had a 50 - 50 chance of being acquited. That is now in the past so
> he really doesn't have much hope at all.
> Steve
First off, this was supposedly told TO an inmate BY Tulluch, and then
told to the reporter by the inmate. There's obviously room for
incorrect timeline there.
Next- why would Tulloch tell someone? Well, for starters, he's not
denying he did it by claiming insanity. He did it, and he knows we all
know, as do his lawyers. I agree on the impossibility of an insanity
verdict but I think it's like this- they have Nothing to Lose by
trying. They're pretty much screwed. To draw comparisons to Leopold
and Loeb AGAIN, Darrow originally saught 2 things after being allowed
to see his clients after their confession; A. get confessions tossed
out, B, establish their insanity.
The confessions weren't tossed. Besides the confessions, the
prosecution had a mountain of evidence obtained on the Sunday after
the arrest while Leopold and Loeb drove around with the state's
attorneys and newspapermen and located all the evidence. Darrow moved
on to insanity. He secured over 10 pyschiatrists who spent nearly a
month establishing the mental state of both Leopold and Loeb. The
insanity defense could have flown. However, it was decided against
mainly because insanity- which is only a legal term, besically states,
legally, that the person did not know the difference between right and
wrong at the time of the crime. Obviously Leopold and Loeb knew the
difference in the technical sense. An insanity defense would also
entail a jury- and L and L were facing death by hanging if they lost.
All of Chicago was outraged by the crime and Darrow didnt think the
boys, up against a jury of 12 white men- given the situation, would
see them as insane. The goal then became to save their lives- and it
seemed that would best be done with only one person judging them-
Judge Caverly. So the not guilty verdict was removed and they plead
guilty. They had EVERYTHING to lose.
Tulloch has nothing, as he is facing life in prison or less time in a
hospital. If he pleads not guilty, he'll probably lose and get life.
If he pleads guilty, he'll probably get life. If he pleads not guilty
then insane, he'll have more chances. So that's simple enough. As for
the supposed admission to a fellow inmate- perhaps he has a motive,
perhaps not. Of course he's intelligent, let's not forget how
intelligent L and L were. Leopold had an I.Q of 210 yet he told
newpaper men that deciding to murder was no different than deciding to
have pie for supper. Loeb had an I.Q of 160 and before apprehension,
he led newspaper around town and told them if he were going to kidnap
somebody, it would be just the sort of cocky son of a bitch as Bobby
Franks.
After the arrest, Darrow made his clients completely accesible to the
press. They were interviewed almost daily, sometimes multiple times
during the day. And they said damnable things sometimes. But Darrow's
intention was to hopefully soften the public's opinion of the
boys-because it could be argued, it couln't get much worse. Darrow
also used random "man on the street" polls to tell where the public
was at. He'd measure the public's opinion before L and L would give a
certain interview and after.
The study of L and L resulted in a piece of work prepared by 2 of the
examining Drs. This was leaked to the press- probably to establish the
insanity of the boys to a potential jury. In the end however, they
didnt feel it worth the risk, and changed the plea to guilty, as,
despite all their efforts, Leopold and Loeb would probably have hanged
if they'd been faced with a jury.
Mare
SteveF
passing and don't see many similarities to the zantop case. I thought the
police just barely caught them due to some special eyeglasses that one left
near the scene.
Remember that Tulloch is pleading "not guilty" in the first part of his
trial. This has nothing to do with insanity at all.. he is pure and simple
pleading not guilty to the charges. It's up to a jury to find him guilty,
then he will plead "not guilty" by reason of insanity. So he still has a
chance of beating the charges depending upon how the jury relates to him and
the evidence. The state has indicted him on 1st degree without a motive and
1st degree with the robbery motive. I don't know how they will play that
out.
From what I have heard Parker's lawyers conferred with Tulloch somehow
before Parker pleaded guilty. Parker got Tulloch's nod. There may be more
surprises yet to come.
Steve
"Mare" <lulu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4a6388e8.02012...@posting.google.com...
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> Mare, thanks for that synopsis of the L&L case. I have only read about it in
> passing and don't see many similarities to the zantop case.
If you haven't read "Compulsion", you'd enjoy it.
It's probably at the library.
Also the 1959 movie by the same name is good.
> I thought the
> police just barely caught them due to some special eyeglasses that one left
> near the scene.
That's true. Isn't that like the knife sheathes?
Without those I don't suppose Tulloch and Parker
would have been caught. (?)
> Remember that Tulloch is pleading "not guilty" in the first part of his
> trial. This has nothing to do with insanity at all.. he is pure and simple
> pleading not guilty to the charges. It's up to a jury to find him guilty,
> then he will plead "not guilty" by reason of insanity.
I find that very hard to understand.
But hey - I'm no lawyer.
> So he still has a
> chance of beating the charges depending upon how the jury relates to him and
> the evidence. The state has indicted him on 1st degree without a motive and
> 1st degree with the robbery motive. I don't know how they will play that
> out.
More legal mystery to me.
> From what I have heard Parker's lawyers conferred with Tulloch somehow
> before Parker pleaded guilty. Parker got Tulloch's nod. There may be more
> surprises yet to come.
When are we likely to learn more?
Is there a trial date?
If it turns out to be true that there was no motive for the
crime - that they just did it for thrills - there would seem
to be good reason to compare the Zantop murders to
the murder by Leopold and Loeb. Leopold and Loeb had
no reason at all for killing the young boy. They did it
for the experience. They also had high IQ's. One was
over 200.
Luk
SteveF
"Luk" <lukn...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C588B5C...@bellsouth.net...
>
>
> SteveF wrote:
>
> > Mare, thanks for that synopsis of the L&L case. I have only read about
it in
> > passing and don't see many similarities to the zantop case.
>
> If you haven't read "Compulsion", you'd enjoy it.
> It's probably at the library.
> Also the 1959 movie by the same name is good.
>
> > I thought the
> > police just barely caught them due to some special eyeglasses that one
left
> > near the scene.
>
> That's true. Isn't that like the knife sheathes?
> Without those I don't suppose Tulloch and Parker
> would have been caught. (?)
very true, and some very good police work in NH. They offered a reasonable
excuse that they sold the knives before the murders, unfortunately Tullochs
prints were at the scene also.
>
> > Remember that Tulloch is pleading "not guilty" in the first part of his
> > trial. This has nothing to do with insanity at all.. he is pure and
simple
> > pleading not guilty to the charges. It's up to a jury to find him
guilty,
> > then he will plead "not guilty" by reason of insanity.
>
> I find that very hard to understand.
> But hey - I'm no lawyer.
***
I still dont understand it.
>
>
> > So he still has a
> > chance of beating the charges depending upon how the jury relates to him
and
> > the evidence. The state has indicted him on 1st degree without a motive
and
> > 1st degree with the robbery motive. I don't know how they will play that
> > out.
>
> More legal mystery to me.
>
> > From what I have heard Parker's lawyers conferred with Tulloch somehow
> > before Parker pleaded guilty. Parker got Tulloch's nod. There may be
more
> > surprises yet to come.
>
> When are we likely to learn more?
> Is there a trial date?
>
***
April 22nd unless Tulloch's insanity investigation takes longer.
> If it turns out to be true that there was no motive for the
> crime - that they just did it for thrills - there would seem
> to be good reason to compare the Zantop murders to
> the murder by Leopold and Loeb. Leopold and Loeb had
> no reason at all for killing the young boy. They did it
> for the experience. They also had high IQ's. One was
> over 200.
>
> Luk
>
***
I thought that L&L were originally going to ask for ransom for the kid.
Thats a motive.
Tulloch's alleged motive doesn't seem to fit the daytime, no diguise, leave
the car in the driveway, confront the victim then rob them and leave them to
call the cops scenario. I also doubt that they could fool Half for very long
about being Dartmouth students.
Steve
>
Luk
> ***
> I thought that L&L were originally going to ask for ransom for the kid.
> Thats a motive.
As I recall, the ransom demand was part of the "experience".
There was no need for money. The boys were from wealthy
families.
> Tulloch's alleged motive doesn't seem to fit the daytime, no diguise, leave
> the car in the driveway, confront the victim then rob them and leave them to
> call the cops scenario. I also doubt that they could fool Half for very long
> about being Dartmouth students.
Yes. I still like my idea about how they went to the
house (intending to prowl around inside)
and knocked on the door expecting the
Zantops to be elsewhere. Then Zantop opened
the door and they gave an excuse for being there
and Zantop saw through it. They panicked.
(my theory)
Where was the Zantop's car? Do you know?
I assume this is the latest info on the "motive".
_____________________________________________________________________
excerpt about Tulloch's conversation with the inmate:
``It was originally planned as a burglary or robbery and then it kind of turned
into a thrill kill,'' the source said.
``Tulloch told (the inmate) they knocked on the door and said they were
Dartmouth students doing a research project on environmental studies,'' a
source said.
``Half answered and invited them in. Half turns away and (Tulloch) leaps up and
slices his throat.''
_____________________________________________________________________________
Luk
Luk
"Experience" Seen As Motive.
Lessing Rosenwald Thinks Murder Was Part of Plan to Know "Life."
Source: The Chicago Daily News, 2 June 1924.
From outside the official investigation of the Franks murder there came to-day a character
study of the two young slayers that led to the conclusion that their motive was a wish to taste
every experience of life, even murder. It was advanced by Lessing Rosenwald, son of Julius
Rosenwald, a friend of both Nathan Leopold Jr. and Richard Loeb and so close to Loeb that he
regards him, he said, as a brother. A grandson of Julius Rosenwald was reported to be one of
the students' intended victims.
"Richard Loeb is a fine fellow, and I can't understand why he would do a thing like that," said
Mr. Rosenwald. "If he wanted money all he had to do was to ask for it. I don't know Leopold
as well, but I do believe he dominated Richard and I suspected he was the influence in this
awful affair."
Lessing Rosenwald is general manager of the Philadelphia branch of Sears, Roebuck & Co., of
which concern his father is president. Young Loeb's father, Albert H. Loeb, is vice-president of
the mail order company.
"His father is a very good friend of mine, he practically broke me into the business," said Mr.
Rosenwald. "There can be no finer man than Mr. Loeb. I knew Richard as a brother, and I
can't believe this thing about him.
"As for Leopold, I did not know him as well. I know him, of course. He was considered a
genius. When he was 16 years old he had one of the finest collections of butterflied in the
world. Eight different departments in Washington would write to him for opinions and he
contributed to magazines and has written several books about ornithology. He was the
youngest man ever graduated from the University of Chicago, receiving his diploma when 18.
Leopold thought he must get experience and the only reason I can conceive for his doing that
[the Franks murder] would be that he thought the experience was worth it. He had probably
been reading modernistic literature and had obtained this idea of experience from that."
SteveF
> >
> > ***
> > I thought that L&L were originally going to ask for ransom for the kid.
> > Thats a motive.
>
> As I recall, the ransom demand was part of the "experience".
> There was no need for money. The boys were from wealthy
> families.
>
>
> > Tulloch's alleged motive doesn't seem to fit the daytime, no diguise,
leave
> > the car in the driveway, confront the victim then rob them and leave
them to
> > call the cops scenario. I also doubt that they could fool Half for very
long
> > about being Dartmouth students.
>
> Yes. I still like my idea about how they went to the
> house (intending to prowl around inside)
> and knocked on the door expecting the
> Zantops to be elsewhere. Then Zantop opened
> the door and they gave an excuse for being there
> and Zantop saw through it. They panicked.
> (my theory)
that is better but they could have just left.
>
> Where was the Zantop's car? Do you know?
**
I dont know.
>
> I assume this is the latest info on the "motive".
> _____________________________________________________________________
> excerpt about Tulloch's conversation with the inmate:
>
> ``It was originally planned as a burglary or robbery and then it kind of
turned
> into a thrill kill,'' the source said.
>
> ``Tulloch told (the inmate) they knocked on the door and said they were
> Dartmouth students doing a research project on environmental studies,'' a
> source said.
>
> ``Half answered and invited them in. Half turns away and (Tulloch) leaps
up and
> slices his throat.''
**
That is the latest however it doesn't fit with the police description. The
police say that Half was dead after his throat was cut.
He had several chest, head and defensive hand wounds.
>
____________________________________________________________________________
_
>
> Luk
>
>
>
>
>
>
SteveF
"Luk" <lukn...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C589A60...@bellsouth.net...
Maggie
>Remember that Tulloch is pleading "not guilty" in the first part of his
>trial. This has nothing to do with insanity at all.. he is pure and simple
>pleading not guilty to the charges. It's up to a jury to find him guilty,
>then he will plead "not guilty" by reason of insanity. So he still has a
>chance of beating the charges depending upon how the jury relates to him
>and
>the evidence.
***Are you sure about this, steve? AFAIK, his lawyers are working on an
insanity defense--I've never heard of this two-step trial you are suggesting.
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
There were a few articles on this dual trial after the initial announcement
that he would plead not guilty by insanity. Here is one from the archives of
the Union Leader..
Robert Tulloch to plead insanity in Dartmouth College slayings
By Staff and Wire Reports
CONCORD - Robert Tulloch, the older Vermont teenager charged with the
slayings of two Dartmouth College professors, will rely on the insanity
defense at his trial, his lawyers said yesterday.
Tulloch, 18, is scheduled to be tried in April on first-degree murder
charges in the Jan. 27 stabbing deaths of Half and Susanne Zantop in their
Hanover home.
<snip>
New Hampshire law is unique in all the world except Scotland when it comes
to insanity defense, McNamara said. Other states and countries employ
elaborate psychological formulations to determine insanity.
"Rather than have a narrow legal test, the New Hampshire rule is the jury
can consider anything," McNamara said. The defense has the burden of proving
Tulloch insane by clear and convincing evidence, he said.
Given the pleading, it also appears that the Tulloch trial will become two
trials within one.
The first phase would be a normal criminal trial, where the prosecution
would seek to prove Tulloch guilty and the defense would plead innocent.
If the jury finds the defendant guilty, then the defense would try to prove
insanity.
<snip>
here's the link:
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=7065
AP and the Boston papers also had articles about this but I can't locate
the links.
I certainly don't understand how a dual trial works especially one where
there are 2 sets of charges.
Steve
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> I know they confessed but did they admit it was a thrill killing?
Not exactly. They had told people they wanted
to experience everything in life . Leopold
(who was more or less the leader) indicated in
conversations to people (before the killing) that
he was intellectually above the law.
There are certainly differences between L&L
and Tulloch/Parker. But from the time I first
heard of the T&P I thought of L&L and even
hunted up my copy of Compulsion. Two
boys, close friends, everything to look forward
to in life, good at school work) senseless
pointless killing, caught because of a mistake
that could well have been avoided if they had
been a little cooler etc. etc.
Luk
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> > Yes. I still like my idea about how they went to the
> > house (intending to prowl around inside)
> > and knocked on the door expecting the
> > Zantops to be elsewhere. Then Zantop opened
> > the door and they gave an excuse for being there
> > and Zantop saw through it. They panicked.
> > (my theory)
> **
> that is better but they could have just left.
I don't know if it's better but - I just didn't want
to believe they killed strangers for the thrill of it.
And I didn't want to ignore the fact that Half's
closest friend had a nurse whose house had been
broken into by the same boys. Half visited this
man frequently and must have often engaged in
conversation with the nurse.
I felt the boys and Half had met up somewhere.
And Half's house had been targeted for a break-in-
prowl-around afternoon.
I figured the trigger for the stabbings was the shock
that Half knew about the background of the boys.
(The boys at one time were on probation for
breaking in.)
I could see Half making up his mind to warn
the boys that they were on the path to self
destruction. Half may have threatened to
talk to their parents, or something, which
triggered a reaction in one or both of the boys.
The conversation may have escalated.
He may even have informed the boys he
knew what they had actually come for and
threatened to get the police involved.
I'm also curious as to whether there might have
been some type of planned meeting between
Half and the boys. It would be interesting to know
whether the Zantop cars were at home, and
whether the boys could see that the cars were
there.
But if the boys say it was a simple thrill kill,
obviously my theories go out the window.
Luk
Maggie
>> >Remember that Tulloch is pleading "not guilty" in the first part of his
>> >trial. This has nothing to do with insanity at all.. he is pure and
>simple
>> >pleading not guilty to the charges. It's up to a jury to find him guilty,
>> >then he will plead "not guilty" by reason of insanity. So he still has
>a
>> >chance of beating the charges depending upon how the jury relates to
>him
>> >and
>> >the evidence.
>>
>> ***Are you sure about this, steve? AFAIK, his lawyers are working on
>an
>> insanity defense--I've never heard of this two-step trial you are
>suggesting.
***Thanks. It's hard to imagine how this is going to help the defendant. It
seems to me that if the initial defense is that he didn't do it, it's going to
be awfully hard to get the same jury not to hold that lie against the defense
once they have to decide insanity.
Luk
Loeb mixed up. It was Loeb who was the instigator.
Also, Loeb was killed in prison. Leopold eventually was
freed.
I suppose that to me this case is the most interesting
one in crime history. And a certain similarity is part
of the reason the Zantop case interests me.
Luk
some excerpts:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/leoploeb/LEO_LEOP.HTM
According to one psychiatrist who examined the boys, the two had
a "king-slave relationship" in which Leopold played the slave to
King Loeb. Other evidence, however, tends to suggest the
relationship was far more complicated than that description
suggests.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/leoploeb/LEO_LOEB.HTM
Loeb was the instigator of the Franks murder. He was also
the actual killer. According to his own statements, he had
to spend several minutes after the murder trying to calm
Leopold, who kept saying, "This is terrible. This is terrible."
After discovery of the Franks body, but before his arrest, Loeb
sought out reporters to offer possible theories that might
explain the yet-unsolved crime.
Leopold's words:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/leoploeb/LEO_LEOW.HTM
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
against Tulloch at the Trial(s).
So how can Tulloch maintain innocence when his best friend says they did it
together?
I have a feeling that Guerriero will change the strategy before April 22.
Steve
SteveF
What are the odds that each kid would take out his knife drop the sheath and
then run out and forget it.
I mean they must have been sitting in the car with blood dripping off of
them.. and yet they forget that they left them inside?
Steve
>
>
Luk
SteveF wrote:
>
> What are the odds that each kid would take out his knife drop the sheath and
> then run out and forget it.
> I mean they must have been sitting in the car with blood dripping off of
> them.. and yet they forget that they left them inside?
Very good question.
What's your guess?
What do you suppose happened?
Luk
SteveF
>
>
> SteveF wrote:
>
> > > Yes. I still like my idea about how they went to the
> > > house (intending to prowl around inside)
> > > and knocked on the door expecting the
> > > Zantops to be elsewhere. Then Zantop opened
> > > the door and they gave an excuse for being there
> > > and Zantop saw through it. They panicked.
> > > (my theory)
> > **
> > that is better but they could have just left.
>
> I don't know if it's better but - I just didn't want
> to believe they killed strangers for the thrill of it.
** They didn't kill Half at the door. He was in his study and probably
engaging the boys in a sit down.
> And I didn't want to ignore the fact that Half's
> closest friend had a nurse whose house had been
> broken into by the same boys. Half visited this
> man frequently and must have often engaged in
> conversation with the nurse.
** I also have felt that Mrs Ward was the link. It's way too coincidental
otherwise. Remember, the boys didn't *break* into the Purcell's rented
house..they entered thru an unlocked window.. they were good friends with
the family...my guess (knowing teenagers) is it was probably a group of both
boys and girls looking for a warm safe place to ..ahhh ..become friendly.
Also, there was a year at least between the two incidents. And a few weeks
of pentative service for the county.
> I felt the boys and Half had met up somewhere.
> And Half's house had been targeted for a break-in-
> prowl-around afternoon.
** I don't think they met beforehand. But T&P certainly knew of them.
> I figured the trigger for the stabbings was the shock
> that Half knew about the background of the boys.
> (The boys at one time were on probation for
> breaking in.)
>
> I could see Half making up his mind to warn
> the boys that they were on the path to self
> destruction. Half may have threatened to
> talk to their parents, or something, which
> triggered a reaction in one or both of the boys.
> The conversation may have escalated.
> He may even have informed the boys he
> knew what they had actually come for and
> threatened to get the police involved.
** I would agree however Tulloch's snitch says Tulloch said differently.
> I'm also curious as to whether there might have
> been some type of planned meeting between
> Half and the boys. It would be interesting to know
> whether the Zantop cars were at home, and
> whether the boys could see that the cars were
> there.
** I thought that for the longest time, but recent news changed my mind.
They were there the day before when the Zantop's were not home and left.
> But if the boys say it was a simple thrill kill,
> obviously my theories go out the window.
**Parker says it was a robbery that escalated via Tulloch. Tulloch
(apparently) says it was a robbery that turned into a thrill kill.
His lawyers say he's innocent but if he did do it he was insane.
> Luk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> ** They didn't kill Half at the door. He was in his study and probably
> engaging the boys in a sit down.
Exactly right! But the last story said Tulloch told the inmate
that:
``Half answered and invited them in. Half turns away and
(Tulloch) leaps up and slices his throat.''
My personal scenario went more like: Half invited them
into the study, sat them down and during the conversation
he informed them that he had figured out what they were
up to. That they had knocked on the door mainly to see if
anyone was home. Then after that the conversation
heated up and the boys lost it.
> > And I didn't want to ignore the fact that Half's
> > closest friend had a nurse whose house had been
> > broken into by the same boys. Half visited this
> > man frequently and must have often engaged in
> > conversation with the nurse.
>
> ** I also have felt that Mrs Ward was the link. It's way too coincidental
> otherwise. Remember, the boys didn't *break* into the Purcell's rented
> house..they entered thru an unlocked window.. they were good friends with
> the family...my guess (knowing teenagers) is it was probably a group of both
> boys and girls looking for a warm safe place to ..ahhh ..become friendly.
> Also, there was a year at least between the two incidents. And a few weeks
> of pentative service for the county.
I had the impression it was just the two boys who broke
into the Purcell house.
I could picture this game of breaking into a friend's house
(and making themselves at home) escalating into breaking
into other homes - The fact that they had been caught once
may have made the game more interesting. But if Half
confronted them, they might have decided committing
murder was better than going to jail - or even better
than facing their parents.
> > I felt the boys and Half had met up somewhere.
> > And Half's house had been targeted for a break-in-
> > prowl-around afternoon.
>
> ** I don't think they met beforehand. But T&P certainly knew of them.
In my scenario, Half knew who they were. And he
had learned from nurse ward that they had a record
of house breaking.
> > I figured the trigger for the stabbings was the shock
> > that Half knew about the background of the boys.
> > (The boys at one time were on probation for
> > breaking in.)
> >
> > I could see Half making up his mind to warn
> > the boys that they were on the path to self
> > destruction. Half may have threatened to
> > talk to their parents, or something, which
> > triggered a reaction in one or both of the boys.
> > The conversation may have escalated.
> > He may even have informed the boys he
> > knew what they had actually come for and
> > threatened to get the police involved.
>
> ** I would agree however Tulloch's snitch says Tulloch said differently.
I know, but as you point out, the snitch said Half
was attacked somewhere near the door. And that
doesn't seem to fit other descriptions of the murder
scene.
> > I'm also curious as to whether there might have
> > been some type of planned meeting between
> > Half and the boys. It would be interesting to know
> > whether the Zantop cars were at home, and
> > whether the boys could see that the cars were
> > there.
> ** I thought that for the longest time, but recent news changed my mind.
> They were there the day before when the Zantop's were not home and left.
That fits into my story - that they simply planned to
occupy the house on the day that the Zantops were
killed. It was something they had planned. Perhaps they
were even in the house the day before and saw something
that made them believe the couple would not be home the
next day.
> > But if the boys say it was a simple thrill kill,
> > obviously my theories go out the window.
>
> **Parker says it was a robbery that escalated via Tulloch. Tulloch
> (apparently) says it was a robbery that turned into a thrill kill.
Parker is blaming Tulloch for escalating the situation.
But Parker fully admits to killing Susanne. Kinda weird.
Luk
nan
> Must confess that in one of my recent posts I had Leopold and
> Loeb mixed up. It was Loeb who was the instigator.
>
> Also, Loeb was killed in prison. Leopold eventually was
> freed.
>
> I suppose that to me this case is the most interesting
> one in crime history. And a certain similarity is part
> of the reason the Zantop case interests me.
>
> Luk
Dear Luk,
The Loeb/Leopold case is as infamous as the Lindburgh case.
Interesting the two L's were strongly influenced by Nietzche's concept
'Ubermensch" or superman. It is a mindset I refer to as "autocratic"
- the presumption of superiorty and entitlement. Nietzche and Wagner
were Adolph's projected idols. Interesting as well is that strange
intellectual symbiotic relationship between Wagner and Nietzche which
L & L seemed to mirror.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
NIETZSCHE AND WAGNER
A Lesson in Subjugation
Joachim Köhler
Translation by Ronald Taylor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1999 BI - BI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This book presents an absorbing account of the bizarre and fluctuating
relationship between the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, the composer
Richard Wagner, and his wife Cosima. Nietzsche was 25 when he first
met Wagner and his 32-year-old mistress Cosima (daughter of Franz
Liszt and at that time wife of the conductor Hans von Bülow) in May
1869. The relationship survived on a combination of mutual
intellectual admiration--dominated by the bullying Wagner--and erotic
jealousy until the composer's death in 1883 and the philosopher's own
descent into madness six years later.
The book, first published in German in 1996, brings this turbulent
relationship vividly to life. Joachim Köhler shows for the first time
how their traumatized childhoods bound Nietzsche and Cosima in
submission to the demonic, aging Wagner, how Nietzsche was enticed
into the Bayreuth labyrinth, entrapped in its culture wars and used as
a tool in its sectarianism and antisemitism. The book sheds new light
on Nietzsche's early writings, revealing them subverted by Wagner to
parade his own ideas of German superiority, of the domination of the
masses by a few chosen geniuses, and of the supremacy of art and
aesthetics over morals and humanity. The sources of Nietzsche's
Superman and Will to Power are traced to the pre-fascist ideology of
Richard and Cosima Wagner, an ideology later uncomprehendingly
idolized by Hitler's Reich.
Joachim Köhler is a writer and publisher. Ronald Taylor is the author
of Berlin and Its Culture, published by Yale University Press.
This story has all the turgid ingredients of a good 19th-century
novel: art, revolution, philosophy, erotic jealousy, infidelity,
insanity, and a cast of real characters the equal of any in classical
literature. . . . Truth can be as fascinating as fiction...Timothy J.
McGee, Library Journal
An] engaging and vivid book, in a fluid translation by Ronald Taylor.
Alan Ryan, New York Times Book Review (end article)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yvonne Adler
of homosexual enthrallment. I would love to read a contemporary version,
usng the trial transcripts as anchors. A fascinating case with a
fascinating defense attorney, the sainted Clarence Darrow.news:3C598760...@bellsouth.net...
SteveF
** No not at all. It was a popular sport in Chelsea called red balling. They
did it with several friends.
In one case a group of them walked into the house of two twins and made
spagetti and were watching a video when the father came home.
He asked them if they were going to eat the food, and they just excused
themselves and left. The twins later confirmed that they had invited them.
> I could picture this game of breaking into a friend's house
> (and making themselves at home) escalating into breaking
> into other homes - The fact that they had been caught once
> may have made the game more interesting. But if Half
> confronted them, they might have decided committing
> murder was better than going to jail - or even better
> than facing their parents.
** In fact they always left a note saying that they had been there.
I think after the police were involved the house raiding stopped..not sure
though. I think Parker's parents were reasonably strict with him, unlike
Tulloch's parents.
** I don't know how they could have expected to get in the house. The
Zantop's always locked up and had an alarm system.
> > > But if the boys say it was a simple thrill kill,
> > > obviously my theories go out the window.
> >
> > **Parker says it was a robbery that escalated via Tulloch. Tulloch
> > (apparently) says it was a robbery that turned into a thrill kill.
>
> Parker is blaming Tulloch for escalating the situation.
> But Parker fully admits to killing Susanne. Kinda weird.
** I have a feeling it wasn't his plan to kill. It may have been one of
those spontaneuous emotional things where he saw Tulloch slicing and
stabbing on Half and then when Susanne came in and pleaded.. he reacted. I
hope we find out during the trial.
>
> Luk
>
>
SteveF
have all been dashed by later findings.
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> It is odd. I have had so many theories on this case and they
> have all been dashed by later findings.
Hopefully in April we'll find out what happened.
But possibly we'll never know and that troubles me.
Luk
Luk
> Dear Luk,
> The Loeb/Leopold case is as infamous as the Lindburgh case.
> Interesting the two L's were strongly influenced by Nietzche's concept
> 'Ubermensch" or superman. It is a mindset I refer to as "autocratic"
> - the presumption of superiorty and entitlement. Nietzche and Wagner
> were Adolph's projected idols. Interesting as well is that strange
> intellectual symbiotic relationship between Wagner and Nietzche which
> L & L seemed to mirror.
Absolutely fascinating case. The intellectual
potential of the two killers was awesome.
I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed more
fully here.
I'm glad you recognize its significance. Thanks for
the article.
Luk
Mare
I can see them dropping them- stupid things happen. I'm just stuck on
why Tulloch kept the damn things in his bedroom.
If it wasn't the knife sheaths, it may well have been something else.
In the L and L case, the eyeglasses did play a signifigant role in
their getting caught. But I'm fairly certain they would have been
caught regardless. In the L and L case, the boys established a fake
identity with which to rent a car. Step one was open a bank acct under
a fake name, then establish a residence at a hotel, then secure false
reference to provide rent a car people. Richard Loeb took some cash
out of his bank acct and gave it to Leopold, who then opened an acct.
Then Loeb went to Morrison hotel and rented a room. The reason was so
that the rent a car people could send an identity card making for no
trouble renting a car for the murder. Now when Loeb rented the room,
he brought along a suitcase to make it look legit. He thought the case
too light so he tossed some books into it. He left it in the room. The
next day they went back to hotel to collect any mail from the rent a
car peopld. Loeb went up to the room, saw that the case was gone, and
freaked out. He left without paying the bill. They managed to get the
rental car anyway.
When they returned the car, it was stained with blood. They'd cleaned
it up, but not enough- the floorboards were even stained and were
submitted as evidence during the hearing. After Robert Franks was
found dead, the police went so far as to question anyone who had a car
that had been reported to have been seen near Robert last time anyone
saw him. That report came from Irvin Hartman who was walking behind.
He paused and looked down and when he looked up, Robert was gone. But
he saw a large grey auto. The police basically arrested anyone who fit
their theory. They were looking for an intellectual rather small
person who had a grey auto. Would the rent a car people have called
the cops? They had rented a grey car to a small intellectual man on
May 21. Said car was, if they looked closely, stained with blood. If
they'd called the police, and given the police the address for Morton
D Ballard, the cops would have gone to the Morrison Hotel and been
confronted with an unpaid bill and an abandoned suitcase. If they
would have looked in the suitcase, they would have found several
library books from the university of Chicago, bearing Richard Loeb's
signature.
As for Tulloch and Parker- I'm stuck on the sighting of the green car.
Mare
Mare
> I know they confessed but did they admit it was a thrill killing?
>
This is an excerpt of Dr White's testimony from the trial transcript.
Dr White is talking about Richard Loeb.
"I asked him to name specifically the objectives that he had in this
crime, and this is the order in which he gave them:
First, the joy in planning it.
Secondly, the thrill in commiting it,
Thirdly, the anticipation, pleasurable anticipation in waiting for the
money.
Fourth, the publicity.
Fifth, the discussion, that is his own discussion among the various
people who were interested, with the knowledge that he possessed the
key to the secret and non of the rest of them did.
And last and least, the money that was involved.
My understanding from him was at the time this Franks homicide was
commited he had at least several hundred dollars in the bank."
For Leopold's motive, below is an excerpt from Leopold's final Parole
Hearing.
"I have been trying desperately to fathom this sitiation. I will
never quit trying. I admired Richard Loeb extravagantly, beyond all
bounds. I literally lived or died on his approval or disapproval. I
would have done anything he asked, even when I knew he was wrong, even
when I was revolted by what he suggested. And he wanted to do this
terrible thing. Why, I cannot be sure. Certainly it was mad,
irrational. Maybe there was some kind of juvenile protest, ab
overwhelming desire to show that he could do it and get away with
it...
I had no desire to do this terrible thing. On the contrary, the
idea was repugnant to me. For weeks and weeks, until only a day or two
before the crime, I was sure we would never go through with it, that
it was only something to talk about and plan but never actually carry
out. Loeb made sure that we would actually fo it. I could not stop him
then, it was too late. I could not back out of the plan without being
a quitter, and without forfeiting Loeb's friendship. Hard as it is for
me now to understand it, these, at nineteen, seemed more important to
me at that time than a young boy's life. True, Loeb did the actual
killing, but that does not exonorate me. Where were my moral
instincts, my conscience?
The only thing that comes out of my thinking that even bears on it
is that at nineteen my growth and devolopments were unnatural; my
thinking was of a grown person; but I had the feelings of an
undeveloped infant. I was like an intelligent savage, who knows no law
but my own elementary desire...
In school I had no trouble. I learned easily. I was several years
ahead of the kids my age. I enterred college at fifteen. The result
was that I was always in the company if boyss three or four years
older than I. What a difference three or four years can make at that
age! Wich school studies and the things you learn from books, I had no
trouble. But what you learn from people- from your friends- I missed
entirely.
You might say I skipped completely the early teens and with that
skip I lost the growth of character and the personality rhat normally
goes with them. Mt emotions were at least five years behind my
thinking. When they did finally catch up. which is not until I had
been here in prison five years, I was shocked that I had not been able
yo feel things more deeply much earlier. Since that day I have been
able to live with others as well as myself.
This does not explain much. I wish to God I could explain more; but
it is all that has come of my long years of thinking about it...On the
one hand, I admired Loeb, was attracted to him with the violence and
lopsidedness only extreme youth can know. On the other hand, I missed
the growth and development that takes place in the early teens; I did
not have the moral strength and understanding to resist. "
Mare
Mare
> What are the odds that each kid would take out his knife drop the sheath and
> then run out and forget it.
> I mean they must have been sitting in the car with blood dripping off of
> them.. and yet they forget that they left them inside?
> Steve
> >
Interestingly, there are some theories that either Nathan Leopold or
Richard Loeb purposefully dropped the glasses at the crime scene as
part of their "game".
Mare
Mare
I was confused by this as well. Here's what I think- it started out in
the PLANNING phase as a burglary, they abandoned that plan BEFORE they
commited the crime and then PLANNED the muder before they did it. How
much before? Who knows. Perhaps they did stop at the house when nobody
was home to burglarize and said..."Hey, "Ive got an idea..." and then
left and planned to return when the inhabitants were home.
Mare
SteveF
& L relationship and they certainly did enjoy their macabre video games.
Parker is very bright but Tulloch is extremely bright. They were in a block
school system that allowed them to accumulate credits so they didn't have to
attend classes on a full time basis. Parker is a year younger and they did
spend most of their time together. They both had comfortable lives and did
just about everything that kids can do. They were into sports of all kinds,
music, drama, debating, school politics, and they especially enjoyed the
thrill of mountain climbing. Maybe they also wanted to experience life at
it's fullest.
I am hoping that in order for Parker to fulfill his requirements as a state
witness and to get the reduced sentence that he will be required to detail
the facts leading up to the crime.
Steve
>
SteveF
"Mare" <lulu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4a6388e8.02020...@posting.google.com...
Mare, what is it about the green car that you are stuck on?
Parker's mother owns a green Subaru station wagon. Parker normally drove a
silver Audi.
The witness who saw a car speeding out of the Zantop's driveway the day
before the murders at first reported a dark colored Volvo, then later said
it could have been a station wagon.
Steve
SteveF
It is interesting that in Leopold's writings during and after his jail term
he confesses that he didn't feel remorse until several years after his
confinement and then he was totally consumed by it.
Steve
Luk
Yvonne Adler wrote:
> I read both books. Neither one, however, touches upon the delicate question
> of homosexual enthrallment. I would love to read a contemporary version,
> usng the trial transcripts as anchors.
In those days the homosexual aspect was not much
discussed or written about. If it were written about
today I'm afraid it wouldn't be very objective.
I get the feeling Leopold's homosexual attachment
to Loeb had a lot to do with his participation. But
apparently Loeb didn't feel the same way about Leopold.
Loeb's motivation is more interesting to me.
Luk
SteveF
> >
> > Dear Luk,
> > The Loeb/Leopold case is as infamous as the Lindburgh case.
> > Interesting the two L's were strongly influenced by Nietzche's concept
> > 'Ubermensch" or superman. It is a mindset I refer to as "autocratic"
> > - the presumption of superiorty and entitlement. Nietzche and Wagner
> > were Adolph's projected idols. Interesting as well is that strange
> > intellectual symbiotic relationship between Wagner and Nietzche which
> > L & L seemed to mirror.
>
> Absolutely fascinating case. The intellectual
> potential of the two killers was awesome.
> I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed more
> fully here.
>
> I'm glad you recognize its significance. Thanks for
> the article.
>
> Luk
>
The Chelsea kids may have also had a fascination with early German
philosophies. Police found literature in Tulloch's room relating to the war
and the Jewish holocaust. Susanne was an outspoken critic (and author) of
those philosophies.
Steve
Luk
Mare wrote:
> > I mean they must have been sitting in the car with blood dripping off of
> > them.. and yet they forget that they left them inside?
>
> I can see them dropping them- stupid things happen. I'm just stuck on
> why Tulloch kept the damn things in his bedroom.
Seems to me they did a lot of things stupidly, despite
the fact they were supposed to be smart kids. But
when I wonder about that I always come back to the fact
that they were young. We here have followed many
cases where DNA was used to trace this and that.
I guess boys that age don't know much about criminal
detection.
Luk
Luk
Mare wrote:
> from Leopold:
>
> I had no desire to do this terrible thing. On the contrary, the
> idea was repugnant to me. For weeks and weeks, until only a day or two
> before the crime, I was sure we would never go through with it, that
> it was only something to talk about and plan but never actually carry
> out. Loeb made sure that we would actually fo it. I could not stop him
> then, it was too late. I could not back out of the plan without being
> a quitter, and without forfeiting Loeb's friendship. Hard as it is for
> me now to understand it, these, at nineteen, seemed more important to
> me at that time than a young boy's life. True, Loeb did the actual
> killing, but that does not exonorate me. Where were my moral
> instincts, my conscience?
They planned it for months. In other words they programmed
themselves. Reminds me of those video or computer games
that kids play hour after hour and month after month. The
same technique is used to train troops to fire when they
finally go to the battlefield.
Luk
SteveF
From what little I read it seems that Leopold, who did have a girlfriend,
was only sexually attracted to Loeb. That is not uncommon.
Loeb had a girlfriend also. They may have been more play on the homosexual
angle than it deserved.
Steve
SteveF
**
If we can believe the defense psychiatrist's report Robert is suffering from
a mental impairment that might have led to that change in plans.
Since he is a rather elusive individual he may have planned it that way all
along and used his partner.
Not likely but possible.
Steve
Mare
>In those days the homosexual aspect was not much
>discussed or written about. If it were written about
>today I'm afraid it wouldn't be very objective.
>
>I get the feeling Leopold's homosexual attachment
>to Loeb had a lot to do with his participation. But
>apparently Loeb didn't feel the same way about Leopold.
>Loeb's motivation is more interesting to me.
It's difficult with Loeb. He tended to lie a lot. The psychiatrists got some
things wrong- mostly Hulbert and Bowman. This can be surmised by Dr white's
comments about how adamantly Leopold would oppose certain ideas that had become
lodged in the psychiatrists minds based on the Hulbery Bowman report, such as
his thinking his mother the Madonna. Also, Hulbert and Bowman made their report
while L and L were both extremely angry with each other. It is interesting that
in the Hulbert Bowman report, Leopold gives names to boys he'd had relations
with in the past but refers to Loeb as "another boy". Loeb's name is rarely
used in the Leopold section of the HB report. The Loeb section mentions no
homosexuality at all. However, the later Drs got more of the story and each
slanted things a bit as well. Healy gave the dish during the trial but Dr
Glueck was the Dr that Loeb had the most confidence in. Glueck stated
"To Loeb, the association with Leopold meant that he could share his greatt
criminal plans and secrets and be associated in the actual carrying out of what
he considered a perfect crime with a highly intellectual human being who would
appreciate and admire his prowess in these directions.
It was in connection with this association that he came to realize, as he told
me, the complete realization of all this preparatory dream life of his."
Another situation is the fact that Compulsion and Swoon both jumble the
psychatric testimony and get the psychiatrists and the Darrow
character/Jonathan Wilke, stating comments made by the prosecution.
Mare
Mare
>It is interesting that in Leopold's writings during and after his jail term
>he confesses that he didn't feel remorse until several years after his
>confinement and then he was totally consumed by it.
>
>Steve
Leopold's later writings were of course, written while he was trying to get
out. He was denied parole first, for, as he saw it, not expressing adequate
remorse.
What is also interesting is in one of Leopold's fansasies, he saved Richard
Loeb after Loeb was run over by a streetcar. He took tremendous chances and
saved Loeb's life. Another fantasy is that Loeb is a sick slave, Leopold buys
him and nurses him back to health.
Couple this with two facts.
A. the crime was a result, in part, of Leopold's going along with it.
B. Richard Loeb is murdered in prison.
One could argue, that had Leopold never gone along with the crime, Loeb would
have never been murdered. What WAS Leopold remorseful over? It's an interesting
theory....
Mare
SteveF
"Mare" <lulu...@aol.commm> wrote in message
news:20020201160817...@mb-cn.aol.com...
Mare, you obviously have gone into this quite a bit. Thanks.
I had never heard of these reports.
Steve
>
>
SteveF
"Mare" <lulu...@aol.commm> wrote in message
could have enticed other people to assist him in his plan.
Tulloch seems to have the combined talents of both Loeb and Leopold. His
major flaws are remembering knife cases and how many days are in a month.
Steve
Maggie
>and
>> then run out and forget it.
>> I mean they must have been sitting in the car with blood dripping off
>of
>> them.. and yet they forget that they left them inside?
>> Steve
>> >
>> >
mare said:
>I can see them dropping them- stupid things happen. I'm just stuck on
>why Tulloch kept the damn things in his bedroom.
>
>If it wasn't the knife sheaths, it may well have been something else.
***I bet they had the sheaths stuffed into their pants and they fell out during
the struggle (which was, no doubt, more violent than they had imagined).
Maggie
"The probability of a person being right increases in direct proportion to the
intensity with which others are trying to prove him wrong." --Bob Augdahl
Maggie
>The Chelsea kids may have also had a fascination with early German
>philosophies. Police found literature in Tulloch's room relating to the
>war
>and the Jewish holocaust. Susanne was an outspoken critic (and author) of
>those philosophies.
***I've read that your last sentence is untrue. While Suzanne was certainly
not in favor of Jewish oppression, it was not a front burner issue with her and
was not something anyone who knew her ever remembers her discussing.
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> Mare, you obviously have gone into this quite a bit. Thanks.
> I had never heard of these reports.
Same here. Just looked up Hulbert and Bowman.
It would seem there are a number of books on
L&L. But out of print.
Luk
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20020201173021...@mb-ch.aol.com...
I can't prove the authorship at this time, but I have good reason to believe
she did author on this topic. Tulloch and Parker were both members of the
Chelsea High School debate team. That team is sponsored in Orange county and
central Vermont by an outside group which has a website with links to
"suggested reading on Jewish oppression". Although neither Half nor Susanne
is in this limited list, the word is that she has articles in the complete
list of recommended readings. I can provide the links if necessary.
ABCNews claims:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/dartmouth_killing010223.html
The two victims, Half and Susanne Zantop, were both born in Germany, and
they were outspoken in their liberal convictions and their view that Germany
should take more responsibility for the Holocaust. They were stabbed to
death in their home on Jan. 27, Holocaust Remembrance Day.
The Dartmouth Review claims:
http://www.dartreview.com/issues/1.29.01/half.html
Zantop's and his wife's awareness of the Holocaust and their desire to
prevent other tragedies drove their political activities, according to
friends.
I am sure you read articles which quoted Audrey McCollum ( a neighbor and
acclaimed friend of the Zantops) protesting that Susanne rarely made a
political issue of the Holocaust in public. Audrey is not considered the
most reliable source of information amongst other sources with whom I have
spoken.
Steve
Luk
Mare wrote:
> I was confused by this as well. Here's what I think- it started out in
> the PLANNING phase as a burglary, they abandoned that plan BEFORE they
> commited the crime and then PLANNED the muder before they did it. How
> much before? Who knows. Perhaps they did stop at the house when nobody
> was home to burglarize and said..."Hey, "Ive got an idea..." and then
> left and planned to return when the inhabitants were home.
That someone thought they saw one of the boys hanging
around the day before the murder just seems to say
there was some planning involved. I've never believed
the boys just happened to stop at any old house.
Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
About the sheathes - One *might* be able to come up with
a scenario in which it makes sense that both sheathes were
left behind. But it's interesting that the sheathes of both
boys were left.
And - was Half first stabbed near the entrance or in
the study. Do the findings of the investigators
contradict what Tulloch told his inmate buddy?
Luk
SteveF
>
>
> Mare wrote:
>
> > I was confused by this as well. Here's what I think- it started out in
> > the PLANNING phase as a burglary, they abandoned that plan BEFORE they
> > commited the crime and then PLANNED the muder before they did it. How
> > much before? Who knows. Perhaps they did stop at the house when nobody
> > was home to burglarize and said..."Hey, "Ive got an idea..." and then
> > left and planned to return when the inhabitants were home.
>
> That someone thought they saw one of the boys hanging
> around the day before the murder just seems to say
> there was some planning involved. I've never believed
> the boys just happened to stop at any old house.
>
> Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
> along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
>
Tulloch had drawings or maps in his room of some building.
**
> About the sheathes - One *might* be able to come up with
> a scenario in which it makes sense that both sheathes were
> left behind. But it's interesting that the sheathes of both
> boys were left.
I have talked about this ad nauseum. These were 12.5 inch long knives and
not easily hidden. Normally they are attached to a belt or leg strap. If
hidden in the pants (as Maggie suggests) it would have to be in the back and
covered by a long coats. If they were wearing coats then why didn't the
police find blood stains on their coats. Christiana says Tulloch wore the
same coat before and after the murder. Also, if they were engaged in a sit
down discussion with Half it would have been mighty uncomfortable to sit on
12 inch knives.
It's more likely that the knives were in the car and either one of them ran
out to get the knives, or one of them was sitting in the car and was
summoned in by the other. So why did they leave them on the floor? That I
don't know.
>
> And - was Half first stabbed near the entrance or in
> the study. Do the findings of the investigators
> contradict what Tulloch told his inmate buddy?
**
According to what the police have issued all the Zantop blood was found in
the study. Only footprint blood was discovered elsewhere and that was at the
front door. It's not sure which door they entered. The back door was the one
that was either partly open or at least unlocked.
>
> Luk
>
**
Maggie
>> >The Chelsea kids may have also had a fascination with early German
>> >philosophies. Police found literature in Tulloch's room relating to the
>> >war
>> >and the Jewish holocaust. Susanne was an outspoken critic (and author)
>of
>> >those philosophies.
>>
>> ***I've read that your last sentence is untrue. While Suzanne was
>certainly
>> not in favor of Jewish oppression, it was not a front burner issue with
>her and
>> was not something anyone who knew her ever remembers her discussing.
steve said:
>I can't prove the authorship at this time, but I have good reason to believe
>she did author on this topic. Tulloch and Parker were both members of the
>Chelsea High School debate team. That team is sponsored in Orange county
>and
>central Vermont by an outside group which has a website with links to
>"suggested reading on Jewish oppression". Although neither Half nor Susanne
>is in this limited list, the word is that she has articles in the complete
>list of recommended readings. I can provide the links if necessary.
***No need--if you say there are no links to anything written by Half or
Suzanne, I certainly believe it.
>
>ABCNews claims:
>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/dartmouth_killing010223.html
>The two victims, Half and Susanne Zantop, were both born in Germany, and
>they were outspoken in their liberal convictions and their view that Germany
>should take more responsibility for the Holocaust. They were stabbed to
>death in their home on Jan. 27, Holocaust Remembrance Day.
>
>The Dartmouth Review claims:
>http://www.dartreview.com/issues/1.29.01/half.html
>Zantop's and his wife's awareness of the Holocaust and their desire to
>prevent other tragedies drove their political activities, according to
>friends.
***Right--early stories were full of these unattributed and unsupported claims.
>
>I am sure you read articles which quoted Audrey McCollum ( a neighbor and
>acclaimed friend of the Zantops) protesting that Susanne rarely made a
>political issue of the Holocaust in public. Audrey is not considered the
>most reliable source of information amongst other sources with whom I have
>spoken.
***Well, steve, look at what we have here: Early articles with unattributed
and unsupported claims that the Zantops were interested in the Holocaust,
followed by later claims--credited to a known person--that the previous stories
were untrue. And absolutely no writings about the Holocaust by either of the
Zantops have ever surfaced.
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
Audrey never claimed that the news articles were untrue, she merely said
that she never heard Susanne speak about the Holocaust.
At any rate, thanks for calling me on this issue. I offered it only as one
possibility as to how the boys may have gained knowledge of the Zantops.
**
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> > Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
> > along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
> >
> **
> Tulloch had drawings or maps in his room of some building.
But not of the Zantop property I gather.
> According to what the police have issued all the Zantop blood was found in
> the study. Only footprint blood was discovered elsewhere and that was at the
> front door. It's not sure which door they entered. The back door was the one
> that was either partly open or at least unlocked.
Hmm. If they entered by a back door that would seem odd.
Especially if they were pretending to be students doing a
research project. Of course I don't know how the house
is laid out.
As to where the first stabbing took place -
I suppose it's possible that what Tulloch said to the
inmate got confused in the retelling. But there's
clearly a contradiction between what we're told
was found in the house and what Tulloch is reported
to have told the inmate. -- Then again, one would
hope the police have some secrets.
Luk
SteveF
>
>
> SteveF wrote:
>
> > > Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
> > > along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
> > >
> > **
> > Tulloch had drawings or maps in his room of some building.
>
> But not of the Zantop property I gather.
probably the Zantop house, but we don't know.
**
>
> > According to what the police have issued all the Zantop blood was found
in
> > the study. Only footprint blood was discovered elsewhere and that was at
the
> > front door. It's not sure which door they entered. The back door was the
one
> > that was either partly open or at least unlocked.
>
> Hmm. If they entered by a back door that would seem odd.
> Especially if they were pretending to be students doing a
> research project. Of course I don't know how the house
> is laid out.
>
I think the back door is the kitchen door and Susanne would have been
there.. doing lunch.
I actually think the house has a circular driveway that wraps around it 270
degrees. There is a greenhouse on the front part near the front door ( again
this is speculation) and I would think that the boys knocked on the back
kitchen door.
**
As to where the first stabbing took place -
> I suppose it's possible that what Tulloch said to the
> inmate got confused in the retelling. But there's
> clearly a contradiction between what we're told
> was found in the house and what Tulloch is reported
> to have told the inmate. -- Then again, one would
> hope the police have some secrets.
>
> Luk
**
The Globe article ( and i don't know if the reporter got this info from the
inmate or the jailers) stated that Half was neck sliced soon after he
greeted the boys. The police report says he was stabbed several times before
his neck was sliced.
>
>
>
Maggie
>
>> > Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
>> > along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
>> >
>> **
>> Tulloch had drawings or maps in his room of some building.
>
>But not of the Zantop property I gather.
***We don't know what the maps/drawings depict.
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
> >SteveF wrote:
> >
> >> > Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
> >> > along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
> >> >
> >> **
> >> Tulloch had drawings or maps in his room of some building.
> >
> Luk said:
> >But not of the Zantop property I gather.
>
> ***We don't know what the maps/drawings depict.
**
Since reporters probably weren't allowed in the Tulloch house it seems
likely that the drawings were something of consequence to the case.
**
Steve
Luk
SteveF wrote:
>
> I think the back door is the kitchen door and Susanne would have been
> there.. doing lunch.
right -
>
> I actually think the house has a circular driveway that wraps around it 270
> degrees. There is a greenhouse on the front part near the front door ( again
> this is speculation) and I would think that the boys knocked on the back
> kitchen door.
If they did that, doesn't it seem a bit odd?
Luk
Mare
>It would seem there are a number of books on
>L&L. But out of print.
>
>Luk
The Hulbert Bowman report was a medical repost commisioned by the defense. It
was meant as a starting point for the other Drs who would then examine the
boys. It's part of the official trial (hearing) transcript- It was done in the
first 2 weeks of June I believe. Thus it must be remembered that L and L were
still angry with each other when it was done- and kept on sep floors of the
jail so they never got a chance to talk. Later they did. All the alienists that
examined the boys were given a copy of the report. It goes into detail on
each's childhood, school life, sex life, medical makeup, etc. The report was
leaked to the press and published in the newspapers as I think, a special
edition or booklet. L and L each had their own edition.
The report, sans any of the "dirt/sexual material" is mostly included in
Maureen McKernan's "The Amazing Crime and Trial of Leopold and Loeb" which is
out of print but redily available on abebooks.com. bibliofind.com, addall.com,
and eBay.
Mare
Maggie
>> >
>> >> > Didn't they find some sort of drawing of the Zantop property
>> >> > along with the knives in Tulloch's room, or did I dream that?
>> >> >
>> >> **
>> >> Tulloch had drawings or maps in his room of some building.
>> >
>> Luk said:
>> >But not of the Zantop property I gather.
>>
>> ***We don't know what the maps/drawings depict.
>
>Since reporters probably weren't allowed in the Tulloch house it seems
>likely that the drawings were something of consequence to the case.
>**
drawings were not of the Zantop property. As you do, I feel pretty sure that
they are, but nothing has been released to confirm that.
Luk
Mare wrote:
> Maureen McKernan's "The Amazing Crime and Trial of Leopold and Loeb" which is
> out of print but redily available on abebooks.com. bibliofind.com, addall.com,
> and eBay.
Mare:
Is it a good book to read?
Which of the L&L books would you recommend?
How hard are they to find?
I read Compulsion and
I ran across the following info at a website:
"Maureen McKernan's book "The Amazing Crime and Trial
of Leopold and Loeb" (1957)
"The Loeb'Leopold Case" by Alvan Sellers. (1926)
Both works are out of print. The
McKernan one is however, far easier to locate used.
The Sellers book was written in 1926 and is very rare.
Both are edited to pass the censors of each time."
Luk
Mare
>Mare:
>
>Is it a good book to read?
>
>Which of the L&L books would you recommend?
>How hard are they to find?
>I read Compulsion and
>I ran across the following info at a website:
>
> "Maureen McKernan's book "The Amazing Crime and Trial
> of Leopold and Loeb" (1957)
>"The Loeb'Leopold Case" by Alvan Sellers. (1926)
>Both works are out of print. The
> McKernan one is however, far easier to locate used.
>The Sellers book was written in 1926 and is very rare.
>Both are edited to pass the censors of each time."
>
>Luk
Hmm. Sounds familiar. ;)
The Sellers book is basically a collectable. It's expensive- I paid $100 for
mine- and is basically trial excerpts. It was a find at the time as I handt
read the transcript yet. It has a lot of the prosecution's close- which is read
worthy- esp. Mr Savages verbal tyrade that made Darrow said " Mr Savage; did
they choose him for his name"? Savages close brought the boys almost to the
break down point with his "HANG THEM! HANG THEM!" Reccomended but pricey- and
hard to find. Contains excerpts of the alienists testimony as well. Darrow's
close Crowe's close- 241 pages or so.
McKernan's book has a synopsis, Leopold's confession (Loeb's is more
interesting and harder to find- its in the official transcript tho- an
abbreviated version of the HB report- all in all- highly reccomended- will make
you want to dig more.
The McKernan book is easy to find at the used book websites, the Sellers book
appears now and then, Higdon's book is available at Barnesandnoble.com
Mare
Hal Higdon's book is of course, top reccomendation. (Crime of the Century)
Luk
Some of Leob's commentaries are on the internet.
Luk