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Patsy Ramsey - still GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY!
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Grizzlie Antagonist
Feb 11, 2012, 3:28:02 AM2/11/12
to
SamuelAlito
Feb 11, 2012, 10:07:18 PM2/11/12
to
The brother did it, the parents covered it up.
Message has been deleted
bella
Feb 12, 2012, 12:47:17 AM2/12/12
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"comadrejo" <comadr...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:F-udndrAUPAY1arS...@giganews.com...
> It hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable who killed JBR. By far,the most
> likely suspect, as someone who had time at the crime scene, wrote the
> ransom note, committed the staged crime scene, strangled JBR with her
> painting equipment, etc etc was Patsy Ramsey.
I think it's a shame that these poor parents were condemned without any
evidence. Their child was murdered, they conducted themselves admirably,
considering the circumstances, yet their names are still bandied about.
Locally here, some old guy who played Santa for years and years was recently
arrested for kiddie porn and child molestation. It reminded me of the
Ramsey's Santa. That was one strange, to say the least, dude IMO. I
suppose you believe the 'no footprints in the snow BS' too.
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Poe
Feb 12, 2012, 3:42:54 PM2/12/12
to
On 2/12/2012 10:22 AM, comadrejo wrote:
> through the house, no signs of an intruder loitering in the house for
> hours. No signs that the intruder was nice enough to put the sharpie pen
> back with the other pens. No signs of an intruder doing a couple rough
> drafts of the ransom note. No signs of an intruder knowing where to find
> JBR's clothes to change them..
>
> All signs of the tools to solve crime points to one person, from
> timeline to evidence, from who helps JBR after a bedwetting, to who was
> at the house, to who felt comfortable loitering there for hours: Patsy
> Ramsey.
>
I've been torn on this one. At first I thought it was Patsy for the
reasons above; then I saw the crime scene photo and thought no way her
mother could do that. I know some mothers commit horrible crimes, but
Patsy and JBR seemed really close, and that pageant thing started
seeming less weird to me as I watched a series on it (really obnoxious
series called Toddlers and Tierras, but I started seeing it as more a
mom/girl thing than a pedo paradise, which I originally thought).
Also, that business about unexplained DNA in her panties... I know the
explanation was that probably a factory worker in China sneezed on them
or something, but that never rang true to me. Were they brand new undies
straight from the package? I don't recall, but that bit seemed weird.
Also there was some footprint in the basement IIRC. And, though I now
have a better understanding of the pageant thing, I am sure they do
attract their share of pedos.
All the arguments you make are also very intriguing. I just don't have a
good, solid feel either way on this. I tend to go along with Patsy
probably did it, but wouldn't be at all surprised if one day it comes
out as someone else.
> On 2012-02-12 05:47:17 +0000, bella said:
>
>> It reminded me of the Ramsey's Santa. That was one strange, to say the
>> least, dude IMO. I suppose you believe the 'no footprints in the snow
>> BS' too.
>
> I believe in the no signs of forced entry, no signs of an intruder going
>
>> It reminded me of the Ramsey's Santa. That was one strange, to say the
>> least, dude IMO. I suppose you believe the 'no footprints in the snow
>> BS' too.
>
> through the house, no signs of an intruder loitering in the house for
> hours. No signs that the intruder was nice enough to put the sharpie pen
> back with the other pens. No signs of an intruder doing a couple rough
> drafts of the ransom note. No signs of an intruder knowing where to find
> JBR's clothes to change them..
>
> All signs of the tools to solve crime points to one person, from
> timeline to evidence, from who helps JBR after a bedwetting, to who was
> at the house, to who felt comfortable loitering there for hours: Patsy
> Ramsey.
>
I've been torn on this one. At first I thought it was Patsy for the
reasons above; then I saw the crime scene photo and thought no way her
mother could do that. I know some mothers commit horrible crimes, but
Patsy and JBR seemed really close, and that pageant thing started
seeming less weird to me as I watched a series on it (really obnoxious
series called Toddlers and Tierras, but I started seeing it as more a
mom/girl thing than a pedo paradise, which I originally thought).
Also, that business about unexplained DNA in her panties... I know the
explanation was that probably a factory worker in China sneezed on them
or something, but that never rang true to me. Were they brand new undies
straight from the package? I don't recall, but that bit seemed weird.
Also there was some footprint in the basement IIRC. And, though I now
have a better understanding of the pageant thing, I am sure they do
attract their share of pedos.
All the arguments you make are also very intriguing. I just don't have a
good, solid feel either way on this. I tend to go along with Patsy
probably did it, but wouldn't be at all surprised if one day it comes
out as someone else.
Message has been deleted
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johns
Feb 12, 2012, 7:33:33 PM2/12/12
to
In a crime like this, there's almost always a psycho-background
leading up to it. Did LE ever look into Patsy's family background?
If it was a crime of narcissistic-rage it would have a background
beginning with Patsy's mother and father, and how she was
raised as a child.
Patsy's attempt to cover the crime might have come from her
role as an enabler of her husband .. and his money .. his social
image coming first in her life. Without him, who was she?
johns
leading up to it. Did LE ever look into Patsy's family background?
If it was a crime of narcissistic-rage it would have a background
beginning with Patsy's mother and father, and how she was
raised as a child.
Patsy's attempt to cover the crime might have come from her
role as an enabler of her husband .. and his money .. his social
image coming first in her life. Without him, who was she?
johns
bella
Feb 12, 2012, 11:22:23 PM2/12/12
to
news:2012021213365392192-comadrejoagua@maccom...
> ultimately lost to a horrible disease. However appearance can be
> different than reality. She was abusing JBR, or punishing JBR for her
> bedwetting, (ie JBR's perforated hymen, which was probably corporal
> punishment, besides Patsy most likely had a complete hysterectomy when
> fighting ovarian cancer). She was lying left and right about what she was
> doing Christmas night, contrary to the autopsy report, (ie JBR having
> partially digested pineapple in her stomach) She and her husband went out
> of their way to impede the investigation. No matter if they were the
> target of the investigation or not, impeding a criminal investigation in
> the killer of their daughter, it is pretty sleazy. Any criminal defense
> lawyer may have told the Ramseys not to cooperate, but they would also
> state they are going to be suspects until cleared, for this type of crime.
>
> If your child was brutally murder by an intruder that left a ransom note,
> would you answered the phone afterward as Pizza restaurant to confuse
> callers? (The Ramseys did it because of the incessant calling, but still,
> it is kind of weird, I would think they want to help get more clues in who
> tried to killed their child) Demand the body for burial, even before the
> autopsy report is completed, or the autopsy has taken place? Wanting to
> flee the crime scene, when they have no idea what happened? (They wanted
> to leave right after JBR was discovered to fly to their vacation house in
> Michigan, the Boulder PD told them they had to stay)
>
> There were much actions by the Ramseys after the murder that raised huge
> red flags. From Patsy's sister taking away material from the house that
> was necessary to solve the case, to blocking the investigation from day
> one.
>
> This case should had been solved and taken to trial. The Boulder PD blew
> this case from the start. There is a difference between possibilities
> which petered out from square one, (ie an intruder going through the
> basement window, no evidence, no trail) to a timeline, to writing a long
> ransom note, to setting up a crime scene, to JBR's injuries. Whoever
> killed JBR was at the crime scene for hours, not minutes but hours.
> Someone spent hours trying to cover up something.
>
> There are still holes in investigation. The Bloomingdale's underwear
> that JBR was wearing when her body was found will always raise doubt.
> However how one presents one's self is different than reality at times.
>
> The four things that are crucial in the autopsy report, the empty bladder,
> (meaning JBR had a bedwetting accident that night) the skull fracture,
> the eyelids hemorrhaging, (meaning the strangulation killed JBR, not the
> skull fracture), and JBR perforated hymen, which wasn't sexual abuse as
> much as corporal punishment. The autopsy report is still a very good
> roadmap of what happened.
>
> This is not a difficult case to figure out. Patsy killed her daughter.
> She is a good actress, but so are many criminals.
>
>
>
I'm disappointed in you comadrejo. Usually you have a better grasp of what
is true and what is fiction. What are real facts and what is false rumors
and innuendo. This whole case in the beginning was wrapped around Patsy
smashing Jonbenet's head into a bathroom fixture. It wasn't until the
release of the autopsy, specifiying that the head injury came at or near the
time of death and wasn't the cause of death. Then, the whole story somehow
switched that Patsy was some sort of sexual pervert monster. There was a
lot of evidence pointing to an intruder. The Boulder PD screwed up royally
when they jumped to the conclusion that it was an inside job. It's way too
complicated a case with way too much evidence that was neglected or
misstated IMO.
As an aside, Adele just won! I was so torn between Adele and Lady Gaga.
Congrats Adele!
> On 2012-02-12 20:42:54 +0000, Poe said:
>
>> At first I thought it was Patsy for the reasons above; then I saw the
>> crime scene photo and thought no way her mother could do that
>
> I give Patsy credit in presenting herself well. She also fought and
>
>> At first I thought it was Patsy for the reasons above; then I saw the
>> crime scene photo and thought no way her mother could do that
>
> ultimately lost to a horrible disease. However appearance can be
> different than reality. She was abusing JBR, or punishing JBR for her
> bedwetting, (ie JBR's perforated hymen, which was probably corporal
> punishment, besides Patsy most likely had a complete hysterectomy when
> fighting ovarian cancer). She was lying left and right about what she was
> doing Christmas night, contrary to the autopsy report, (ie JBR having
> partially digested pineapple in her stomach) She and her husband went out
> of their way to impede the investigation. No matter if they were the
> target of the investigation or not, impeding a criminal investigation in
> the killer of their daughter, it is pretty sleazy. Any criminal defense
> lawyer may have told the Ramseys not to cooperate, but they would also
> state they are going to be suspects until cleared, for this type of crime.
>
> If your child was brutally murder by an intruder that left a ransom note,
> would you answered the phone afterward as Pizza restaurant to confuse
> callers? (The Ramseys did it because of the incessant calling, but still,
> it is kind of weird, I would think they want to help get more clues in who
> tried to killed their child) Demand the body for burial, even before the
> autopsy report is completed, or the autopsy has taken place? Wanting to
> flee the crime scene, when they have no idea what happened? (They wanted
> to leave right after JBR was discovered to fly to their vacation house in
> Michigan, the Boulder PD told them they had to stay)
>
> There were much actions by the Ramseys after the murder that raised huge
> red flags. From Patsy's sister taking away material from the house that
> was necessary to solve the case, to blocking the investigation from day
> one.
>
> This case should had been solved and taken to trial. The Boulder PD blew
> this case from the start. There is a difference between possibilities
> which petered out from square one, (ie an intruder going through the
> basement window, no evidence, no trail) to a timeline, to writing a long
> ransom note, to setting up a crime scene, to JBR's injuries. Whoever
> killed JBR was at the crime scene for hours, not minutes but hours.
> Someone spent hours trying to cover up something.
>
> There are still holes in investigation. The Bloomingdale's underwear
> that JBR was wearing when her body was found will always raise doubt.
> However how one presents one's self is different than reality at times.
>
> The four things that are crucial in the autopsy report, the empty bladder,
> (meaning JBR had a bedwetting accident that night) the skull fracture,
> the eyelids hemorrhaging, (meaning the strangulation killed JBR, not the
> skull fracture), and JBR perforated hymen, which wasn't sexual abuse as
> much as corporal punishment. The autopsy report is still a very good
> roadmap of what happened.
>
> This is not a difficult case to figure out. Patsy killed her daughter.
> She is a good actress, but so are many criminals.
>
>
>
I'm disappointed in you comadrejo. Usually you have a better grasp of what
is true and what is fiction. What are real facts and what is false rumors
and innuendo. This whole case in the beginning was wrapped around Patsy
smashing Jonbenet's head into a bathroom fixture. It wasn't until the
release of the autopsy, specifiying that the head injury came at or near the
time of death and wasn't the cause of death. Then, the whole story somehow
switched that Patsy was some sort of sexual pervert monster. There was a
lot of evidence pointing to an intruder. The Boulder PD screwed up royally
when they jumped to the conclusion that it was an inside job. It's way too
complicated a case with way too much evidence that was neglected or
misstated IMO.
As an aside, Adele just won! I was so torn between Adele and Lady Gaga.
Congrats Adele!
Message has been deleted
Chocolic
Feb 13, 2012, 12:26:08 AM2/13/12
to
"comadrejo" wrote in message
news:2012021220410174185-comadrejoagua@maccom...
times, and we are not going to change one's opinion about this case. I
am just discussing from what I know. The skull fracture was never
stated it came near the time of death. It stated that the skull
fracture could had killed JBR if the strangulation didn't kill her, and
she didn't get medical attention, it doesn't state what so ever it came
around the same time as the strangulation. The strangulation killed
her.
Patsy probably put her finger in JBR's vagina as a form of corporal
punishment, not for sexual gratification. It was probably a combo of
frustation dealing with the bed wetting, and her own anger about the
ordeal she went through with her serious cancer treatment, and having a
radical hysterectomy for her ovarian cancer. Frustration, jealousy etc.
TD/Bella, there is no evidence of an intruder. There are "theories" of
an intruder, and possible scenarios, but there is not one piece of
solid evidence of an intruder in the Ramsey's home on Christmas night.
As I stated, there is no trail of an intruder in the Ramsey's house for
minutes or hours.
All the usual suspects, convicted felons, loners, Santa Claus, were
cleared, because there isn't any evidence tying them to the crime
scene. As I stated in a previous post, as much as the DNA on the
underwear raises big doubt against Patsy, it also clears all these
people you tried to point to in the past.
It isn't a complicated case. JBR was found in the house, the ransom
note was written at the house, she wasn't kidnapped, she was used as a
prop for a staged crime scene. It is complicated if one tries to solve
it by trying to pin an intruder as the culprit. As I stated
previously, the intruder scenario never leaves square one, it hits an
immediate dead end.
One has to go with the evidence at hand, and who had access to the
evidence, who had time to loiter around the house, and who knew details
about John Ramsey's bonus.. it boils down to one person, again and
again: Patsy Ramsey. The end. Case closed.
-----------------------------
Like Poe, I am not fully completely convinced that Patsy did it, or not.
Although, over time, I lean a more toward Patsy being guilty. Granted, no
mother with NO history of abusing their child could do something like that.
That's what I believed for a long time. But I've changed my thoughts
somewhat. Maybe Patsy snapped when JBR wet the bed. She seemed to be
pretty obsessed with JBR and other parents can tell you how frustrating it
can be when you have a bed wetter at that age. With her cancer treatment
and knowing she was probably going to die, the continued stress would be
tremendous and could have made her lose complete control. JBR wetting the
bed was the last straw. Maybe she didn't even remember doing it. But then
in a panic she had to figure out a way to cover this all up and did it in a
stupid careless way.
The intruder theory doesn't wash with me either. Kidnapping a child for
ransom is extremely rare. We have occasionally heard of intruders
kidnapping children out of their homes to rape and/or murder them. But
never ever have I heard of them actually staying in the home, while the rest
of the family slept, to do that. The risk of JBR screaming and the noise
would be too much and just plain crazy. Then to stay in the home, hide the
body in a room in the basement that is hard to find, and then stick around
for who knows how long, to write and rewrite a ransom note, is just beyond
belief.
Chocolic
Mick
Feb 13, 2012, 12:42:29 PM2/13/12
to
I swear to god it wasn't me.
Nancy Rudins
Feb 13, 2012, 12:50:51 PM2/13/12
to
crime scene was so compromised and botched by the police that
they concluded there was insufficient legal evidence.
I don't think people just "snap" and do something that is out
of character for that person. I tend to think that if someone
"snaps," it's because he/she lost the impulse control that
normally prevents him/her from doing something that would
not have been done absent extreme circumstance or stress.
Without a history of abuse, I have doubts that Patsy did it.
Mick
Feb 13, 2012, 1:02:20 PM2/13/12
to
On Feb 13, 12:50 pm, Nancy Rudins <nrud...@att.net> wrote:
>
> Without a history of abuse, I have doubts that Patsy did it.
To me, this is an important piece. It's ahrd to imagine someone doing
>
> Without a history of abuse, I have doubts that Patsy did it.
that without having somes erious trail of whacked out behavior in
their past. I haven't seen that for Patsy.
Some people think the child pageant scene is itself, perverses. I tend
to agree, but the kind kind of behavior I'm talking about goes way
past that.
Maybe Patsy does have that kind of history, and I'm not aware of it,
though. What else has she done? Any threats of violence towards
rivals in her life? Old boyfriends talking of red flags?
I don't believe there is any danger of violent or psychotic breaks
from her particualr chemo, but I oculd be wrong about that, I suppose.
I don't believe that facing death herself would cause her to be
violent to her daughter. <Maybe if there were some history of abuse,
but even that is a very distant "maybe."
Of course, the lack of evidence for any other explanation and the all
the weird bits like the ransom note raises the index of suspicion
considerably. There i still doubt, though.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Mick
Feb 13, 2012, 3:18:16 PM2/13/12
to
On Feb 13, 2:01 pm, comadrejo <comadrejoa...@mac.com> wrote:
> Patsy also had some pretty brutal cancer treatment. She had a radical
> hysterectomy for someone with her stage of ovarian cancer. Whether she
> was taking hormones or not, her emotions could all over the place,
> besides jealousy of her daughter, or anger that She had get her ovaries
> and uterus removed, while her daughter still couldn't control her
> bladder and bowel movements.
>
I've enver heard of that kind of medical/surgical problem triggerring
violence. Do you have any documentation of that ever happening?
Without some kind of indication that similar medical issues have lead
to violence, I can't give any credence to this theory of the
motivation.
There is plenty that smell funny about Patsy for sure. I can't claim
she is innocent. I just question seriously this "motivation."
> Patsy also had some pretty brutal cancer treatment. She had a radical
> hysterectomy for someone with her stage of ovarian cancer. Whether she
> was taking hormones or not, her emotions could all over the place,
> besides jealousy of her daughter, or anger that She had get her ovaries
> and uterus removed, while her daughter still couldn't control her
> bladder and bowel movements.
>
I've enver heard of that kind of medical/surgical problem triggerring
violence. Do you have any documentation of that ever happening?
Without some kind of indication that similar medical issues have lead
to violence, I can't give any credence to this theory of the
motivation.
There is plenty that smell funny about Patsy for sure. I can't claim
she is innocent. I just question seriously this "motivation."
bella
Feb 13, 2012, 8:36:38 PM2/13/12
to
news:2012021311015270357-comadrejoagua@maccom...
> abuse or not. As much as JBR was showned to be abused, and there are two
> suspect in that abuse her mother or her father. Appearances are different
> than reality. The reality is that JBR was abused and it probably wasn't
> sexual in nature as corporal punishment for her bedwetting.
>
I'm sorry, but that is the craziest thing I've ever heard. I had a complete
hysterectomy when I was approx. 50. Big incision and all, nearly a week in
hospital. And I never took HRT either. To imply that would/could 'make a
woman nutty' I find to be sexist and frankly, insulting to say the least.
No one, none of the maids, none of the pagent people, none of Jonbenets
teachers, her pediatrician, NOBODY ever saw any hint of abuse. The only
comment I recall is that 'perhaps the Ramsey's *spoiled* their children a
bit.
There was no evidence of Jonbenet wetting the bed that night, NONE. One of
my daughters wet the bed still at Jonbenets age. The pediatrician explained
'he could find nothing wrong with her, other than she was a heavy sleeper,
and just didn't wake up to go pee. One of my three little grandsons, all
brothers, is exactly the same. His twin never wets the bed, he still does.
And he's very matter of fact about it. Is proud to come and tell us he
hadn't wet the bed in two days. Or that 'he didn't wake up last night' and
wet the bed. For parents, who deal with all kinds of stuff, wetting the bed
isn't a biggie. Believe me. It's not like we have to drag the sheets down
to the creek and beat 'em on rocks. You throw 'em in the washer, throw 'em
in the dryer, and voila!
As for Patsy's cancer, what seemed to bother her the most was not being
there for her children, were she to die while they were still so young. As
a woman, as a mother, those sort of emotions lead most females to the exact
*opposite* of what you surmise. You want to make the most of every moment,
every day. You learn that stuff like wetting the bed or spilled milk is
NOTHING compared to dying.
JMO
bella
> On 2012-02-13 18:02:20 +0000, Mick said:
>
>> Maybe Patsy does have that kind of history, and I'm not aware of it,
>> though. What else has she done? Any threats of violence towards
>> rivals in her life? Old boyfriends talking of red flags?
>
>
> Child abuse is different than domestic violence.
>
>> Maybe Patsy does have that kind of history, and I'm not aware of it,
>> though. What else has she done? Any threats of violence towards
>> rivals in her life? Old boyfriends talking of red flags?
>
>
>
> Patsy also had some pretty brutal cancer treatment. She had a radical
> hysterectomy for someone with her stage of ovarian cancer. Whether she
> was taking hormones or not, her emotions could all over the place, besides
> jealousy of her daughter, or anger that She had get her ovaries and uterus
> removed, while her daughter still couldn't control her bladder and bowel
> movements.
>
> To me, it is doesn't really matter if Patsy did not have a history of
> Patsy also had some pretty brutal cancer treatment. She had a radical
> hysterectomy for someone with her stage of ovarian cancer. Whether she
> was taking hormones or not, her emotions could all over the place, besides
> jealousy of her daughter, or anger that She had get her ovaries and uterus
> removed, while her daughter still couldn't control her bladder and bowel
> movements.
>
> abuse or not. As much as JBR was showned to be abused, and there are two
> suspect in that abuse her mother or her father. Appearances are different
> than reality. The reality is that JBR was abused and it probably wasn't
> sexual in nature as corporal punishment for her bedwetting.
>
I'm sorry, but that is the craziest thing I've ever heard. I had a complete
hysterectomy when I was approx. 50. Big incision and all, nearly a week in
hospital. And I never took HRT either. To imply that would/could 'make a
woman nutty' I find to be sexist and frankly, insulting to say the least.
No one, none of the maids, none of the pagent people, none of Jonbenets
teachers, her pediatrician, NOBODY ever saw any hint of abuse. The only
comment I recall is that 'perhaps the Ramsey's *spoiled* their children a
bit.
There was no evidence of Jonbenet wetting the bed that night, NONE. One of
my daughters wet the bed still at Jonbenets age. The pediatrician explained
'he could find nothing wrong with her, other than she was a heavy sleeper,
and just didn't wake up to go pee. One of my three little grandsons, all
brothers, is exactly the same. His twin never wets the bed, he still does.
And he's very matter of fact about it. Is proud to come and tell us he
hadn't wet the bed in two days. Or that 'he didn't wake up last night' and
wet the bed. For parents, who deal with all kinds of stuff, wetting the bed
isn't a biggie. Believe me. It's not like we have to drag the sheets down
to the creek and beat 'em on rocks. You throw 'em in the washer, throw 'em
in the dryer, and voila!
As for Patsy's cancer, what seemed to bother her the most was not being
there for her children, were she to die while they were still so young. As
a woman, as a mother, those sort of emotions lead most females to the exact
*opposite* of what you surmise. You want to make the most of every moment,
every day. You learn that stuff like wetting the bed or spilled milk is
NOTHING compared to dying.
JMO
bella
bella
Feb 13, 2012, 8:38:23 PM2/13/12
to
news:2012021310555752387-comadrejoagua@maccom...
> perforated. The perforation didn't just happened that night.
>
> Even if striking JBR and trying to punish JBR by sticking a finger in her
> vagina is out of Patsy Ramsey's character, one has to go with the evidence
> at hand, and who are in the circle of people that had access to JBR.
> Patsy was the one that took care of JBR bedwetting, (and probably's
> Burke's bedwetting as well) There was a bedwetting accident by JBR on
> Christmas night, we know this because JBR's bladder was empty, and the
> clothes she slept in was found bundled up in her room.
>
> One big hole in the "Patsy did it" scenario is where did the skull
> fracture took place, location and what object caused it. The skull
> fracture would make JBR appeared dead as she was unconscious, and needed
> medical attention immediately. The strangulation killed JBR.
>
> Even 16 years after the murder, the trail leads to Patsy, trying to
> deviate from that trail to other family members or to an intruder just
> stops immediately.
>
> In the process of elimination of suspects at the crime scene, (Patsy, John
> and Burke)
>
> -Who took care of JBR's bedwetting?
> -Who knew where JBR's clothes were?
> -Who wrote the ransom note?
> -Who was wearing the same clothes as they went to a party the previous
> night, when the "ransom/diversion note" was found?
> -Who used the equipment to strangle JBR that the suspect felt comfortable
> with, (ie the painting supplies)
> -Who had time to loiter for hours and felt comfortable moving freely about
> the house in the middle of the night?
>
> There was no evidence of any other suspect in the house at the time of the
> murder. Possibilities are different than evidence at hand
>
JonBenet didn't wet the bed. She peed on herself as she was being strangled
to death in the basement room. Period.
> On 2012-02-13 17:50:51 +0000, Nancy Rudins said:
>
>> I don't think people just "snap" and do something that is out
>> of character for that person. I tend to think that if someone
>> "snaps," it's because he/she lost the impulse control that
>> normally prevents him/her from doing something that would
>> not have been done absent extreme circumstance or stress.
>
>> Without a history of abuse, I have doubts that Patsy did it.
>
> You have to go with what the autopsy report found. JBR's hymen was
>
>> I don't think people just "snap" and do something that is out
>> of character for that person. I tend to think that if someone
>> "snaps," it's because he/she lost the impulse control that
>> normally prevents him/her from doing something that would
>> not have been done absent extreme circumstance or stress.
>
>> Without a history of abuse, I have doubts that Patsy did it.
>
> perforated. The perforation didn't just happened that night.
>
> Even if striking JBR and trying to punish JBR by sticking a finger in her
> vagina is out of Patsy Ramsey's character, one has to go with the evidence
> at hand, and who are in the circle of people that had access to JBR.
> Patsy was the one that took care of JBR bedwetting, (and probably's
> Burke's bedwetting as well) There was a bedwetting accident by JBR on
> Christmas night, we know this because JBR's bladder was empty, and the
> clothes she slept in was found bundled up in her room.
>
> One big hole in the "Patsy did it" scenario is where did the skull
> fracture took place, location and what object caused it. The skull
> fracture would make JBR appeared dead as she was unconscious, and needed
> medical attention immediately. The strangulation killed JBR.
>
> Even 16 years after the murder, the trail leads to Patsy, trying to
> deviate from that trail to other family members or to an intruder just
> stops immediately.
>
> In the process of elimination of suspects at the crime scene, (Patsy, John
> and Burke)
>
> -Who took care of JBR's bedwetting?
> -Who knew where JBR's clothes were?
> -Who wrote the ransom note?
> -Who was wearing the same clothes as they went to a party the previous
> night, when the "ransom/diversion note" was found?
> -Who used the equipment to strangle JBR that the suspect felt comfortable
> with, (ie the painting supplies)
> -Who had time to loiter for hours and felt comfortable moving freely about
> the house in the middle of the night?
>
> There was no evidence of any other suspect in the house at the time of the
> murder. Possibilities are different than evidence at hand
>
JonBenet didn't wet the bed. She peed on herself as she was being strangled
to death in the basement room. Period.
Message has been deleted
Mick
Feb 14, 2012, 4:11:52 AM2/14/12
to
On Feb 14, 12:37 am, comadrejo <comadrejoa...@mac.com> wrote:
> On 2012-02-14 01:38:23 +0000, bella said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "comadrejo" <comadrejoa...@mac.com> wrote in message
> There is evidence of bedwetting that night. As I stated a million
> times, her bladder was empty, it is in the autopsy report. (I just like
> how so many people care about this case, but do so little reading of
> the primary materials). An empty bladder is a sign of bedwetting.
> Most people don't completey empty their bladder when they urinate, (not
> from trying, but there will remain some urine in the bladder)
What"most people" do with their bladder has little, if any, bearing on
how a 4 year old would emnpty theri bladder while being strangled.
Legend has it, that people void fairly completely when tehy are hung
or garrotted, fo example.
> JBR
> probably went to bed shortly after she got home, or right after she ate
> some pineapple. Two hours later, while she went in deeper sleep, as
> most nocturnal enuresis occurs, she wet her bed. The bedwetting and
> the pineapple remants are important to pushing the timeline along.
>
Was the bed wet? Without that, it would take some extraordinary
evidence to convince me that she wet the bed. And I don't see that
evidence.
> The skull fracture happened before she was strangled. If the skull
> fracture happened after JBR strangled, she would have signs of a
> struggle, and her tongue would pressed with the tape over her mouth.
> There was no signs of a struggle. The skull fracture made her
> unconscious, but to the perpetrator, it looked like JBR was already
> dead. The strangulation killed her, given her eyelids capillaries
> hemmorhagged, a sign of strangulation. They wouldn't hemmorhaged if
> she was already dead. JBR was also wiped down when Patsy or the
> elusive intruder changed her clothes after the skull fracture..
>
> I would be the first to say that there are holes in the "Patsy did it"
> theory. There is only guesses and theories in how and where the skull
> fracture happened. However with the evidence on hand, not imaginary or
> made up stuff that you tend to believe shibboleths about the case,
> there is a pretty good picture of what happened that night. Her empty
> bladder means that the events that lead JBR death started around 11 to
> 11:30 on Christmas night, The skull fracture was probably from 11:30
> to 11:45, and her death was around 12:30 to one, given she was found
> around 16 hours later, and we can get a pretty clear reading from her
> liver temperature at autopsy when the death occurred.
>
> So basically the time window for JBR's last hours was from 11pm to
> 1am Dec. 25-26th, 1996. It narrows down who she could had interacted
> with, who was up, and who could change her clothes, move her body,
> strangled her in a pretty quick period of time.-
IFrom what you say, likely scenario seems to be JonBenet's brother
broke her skull and possibly strangled her and Patsy, while in
considerable shock, covered it up.
If Patsy did let herself be the Patsy and take all this suspcion for
her son, that makes a certain amount of sense. But that makes Patsy a
more sympathetic character than the abusive murderer many make her out
to be.
I still think there wold have been considerable evidence they would
ahve failed to clean up in the scenario.
****
I wonder if there will ever be some kind of solution for this. I'm
tending to think there will not be, but whyo knows? There could be
some plausible death bed confession that comes along sometime. Maybe
decades from now.
> On 2012-02-14 01:38:23 +0000, bella said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "comadrejo" <comadrejoa...@mac.com> wrote in message
> times, her bladder was empty, it is in the autopsy report. (I just like
> how so many people care about this case, but do so little reading of
> the primary materials). An empty bladder is a sign of bedwetting.
> Most people don't completey empty their bladder when they urinate, (not
> from trying, but there will remain some urine in the bladder)
What"most people" do with their bladder has little, if any, bearing on
how a 4 year old would emnpty theri bladder while being strangled.
Legend has it, that people void fairly completely when tehy are hung
or garrotted, fo example.
> JBR
> probably went to bed shortly after she got home, or right after she ate
> some pineapple. Two hours later, while she went in deeper sleep, as
> most nocturnal enuresis occurs, she wet her bed. The bedwetting and
> the pineapple remants are important to pushing the timeline along.
>
Was the bed wet? Without that, it would take some extraordinary
evidence to convince me that she wet the bed. And I don't see that
evidence.
> The skull fracture happened before she was strangled. If the skull
> fracture happened after JBR strangled, she would have signs of a
> struggle, and her tongue would pressed with the tape over her mouth.
> There was no signs of a struggle. The skull fracture made her
> unconscious, but to the perpetrator, it looked like JBR was already
> dead. The strangulation killed her, given her eyelids capillaries
> hemmorhagged, a sign of strangulation. They wouldn't hemmorhaged if
> she was already dead. JBR was also wiped down when Patsy or the
> elusive intruder changed her clothes after the skull fracture..
>
> I would be the first to say that there are holes in the "Patsy did it"
> theory. There is only guesses and theories in how and where the skull
> fracture happened. However with the evidence on hand, not imaginary or
> made up stuff that you tend to believe shibboleths about the case,
> there is a pretty good picture of what happened that night. Her empty
> bladder means that the events that lead JBR death started around 11 to
> 11:30 on Christmas night, The skull fracture was probably from 11:30
> to 11:45, and her death was around 12:30 to one, given she was found
> around 16 hours later, and we can get a pretty clear reading from her
> liver temperature at autopsy when the death occurred.
>
> So basically the time window for JBR's last hours was from 11pm to
> 1am Dec. 25-26th, 1996. It narrows down who she could had interacted
> with, who was up, and who could change her clothes, move her body,
> strangled her in a pretty quick period of time.-
IFrom what you say, likely scenario seems to be JonBenet's brother
broke her skull and possibly strangled her and Patsy, while in
considerable shock, covered it up.
If Patsy did let herself be the Patsy and take all this suspcion for
her son, that makes a certain amount of sense. But that makes Patsy a
more sympathetic character than the abusive murderer many make her out
to be.
I still think there wold have been considerable evidence they would
ahve failed to clean up in the scenario.
****
I wonder if there will ever be some kind of solution for this. I'm
tending to think there will not be, but whyo knows? There could be
some plausible death bed confession that comes along sometime. Maybe
decades from now.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
johns
Feb 14, 2012, 1:18:09 PM2/14/12
to
> Without a history of abuse, I have doubts that Patsy did it.
Pathological narcissism begins in the early relationship between
a baby and it's mother. If the mother .. for some reason like she
spends all her time with another child .. ignores the baby except
for basic needs .. food .. then the baby fails to develop at all, and
in later life has an underlying uncontrollable baby-rage reaction
to any insult to it's grandiosity. And this can seem to come out
of nowhere. Treat one child special .. ignore the other .. and you
have the potential for this reaction to occur. And the narcissistic
child can appear totally normal up until the insult occurs.
Patsy was obviously covering for somebody .. but I don't think
it was herself.
johns
bella
Feb 14, 2012, 3:19:31 PM2/14/12
to
news:201202140345114151-comadrejoagua@maccom...
> and bowels.
>
> I either suggest reading about the case, what was found in JBR bedroom..
>
> I mentioned before there are plenty of signs that JBR was unconscious when
> she was strangled to death. There were no signs of struggle.
There were JonBenet's little fingernail impressions on her own neck, as if
attempting to pull the hands that were strangling her, from her neck.
> On 2012-02-14 09:11:52 +0000, Mick said:
>
>> What"most people" do with their bladder has little, if any, bearing on
>> how a 4 year old would emnpty theri bladder while being strangled.
>> Legend has it, that people void fairly completely when tehy are hung
>> or garrotted, fo example.
>
> They also defecate because they are losing control of both their bladder
>
>> What"most people" do with their bladder has little, if any, bearing on
>> how a 4 year old would emnpty theri bladder while being strangled.
>> Legend has it, that people void fairly completely when tehy are hung
>> or garrotted, fo example.
>
> and bowels.
>
> I either suggest reading about the case, what was found in JBR bedroom..
>
> I mentioned before there are plenty of signs that JBR was unconscious when
> she was strangled to death. There were no signs of struggle.
There were JonBenet's little fingernail impressions on her own neck, as if
attempting to pull the hands that were strangling her, from her neck.
Message has been deleted
bella
Feb 15, 2012, 7:35:56 PM2/15/12
to
news:201202151550409979-comadrejoagua@maccom...
> TD/Bella, come on. There isn't any "fingernail impressions" on her own
> neck, nor are there are burns or abrasion marks on her hands trying to
> grab for the nylon cord..
>
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jonbenet-ramsey-autopsy?page=2
>
> ""A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furor
> varies from one-eight of an inch to five sixteenths of an inch and is
> horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the
> anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of
> petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring
> approximately 3x2 inches. The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline
> of the neck below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of
> cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with upward
> deviation from horizontal towards the back of the neck."
>
> translation: there is no struggle from JBR from trying to grab the nylon
> cord, nor is there any fibers of the cord or burn or abrasion marks on her
> hand. There are other signs of non struggle, like JBR not pressing her
> tongue against the tape on her mouth, nor biting down on her tongue.
>
> JBR was barely alive when she was strangled because of the seriousnes of
> the skull fracture.
>
> All of this is out there, and if you are going to believe stuff that does
> not support the autopsy report or the expert medical opinion, this case
> will be tough to solve.
>
I don't think anyone knows for sure whether those are JonBenet's finger
marks above and below the cord strangling her neck.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg
I have read the autopsy report, and all the various opinions.
******
"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom,
Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer.
After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that
the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with
those produced by a stun gun.
Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters a pathologist on the case of a 13 month
old girl from Larimer County who had been murdered in 1988. Deters examined
the photos of JBR and agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun
injury but he did not think the body had to be exhumed. Deters believed that
nothing more could be learned by examing the skin tissue."
> neck, nor are there are burns or abrasion marks on her hands trying to
> grab for the nylon cord..
>
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jonbenet-ramsey-autopsy?page=2
>
> ""A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furor
> varies from one-eight of an inch to five sixteenths of an inch and is
> horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the
> anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of
> petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring
> approximately 3x2 inches. The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline
> of the neck below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of
> cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with upward
> deviation from horizontal towards the back of the neck."
>
> translation: there is no struggle from JBR from trying to grab the nylon
> cord, nor is there any fibers of the cord or burn or abrasion marks on her
> hand. There are other signs of non struggle, like JBR not pressing her
> tongue against the tape on her mouth, nor biting down on her tongue.
>
> JBR was barely alive when she was strangled because of the seriousnes of
> the skull fracture.
>
> All of this is out there, and if you are going to believe stuff that does
> not support the autopsy report or the expert medical opinion, this case
> will be tough to solve.
>
I don't think anyone knows for sure whether those are JonBenet's finger
marks above and below the cord strangling her neck.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg
I have read the autopsy report, and all the various opinions.
******
"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom,
Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer.
After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that
the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with
those produced by a stun gun.
Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters a pathologist on the case of a 13 month
old girl from Larimer County who had been murdered in 1988. Deters examined
the photos of JBR and agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun
injury but he did not think the body had to be exhumed. Deters believed that
nothing more could be learned by examing the skin tissue."
Nancy Rudins
Feb 17, 2012, 2:39:28 PM2/17/12
to
On 2/13/2012 1:01 PM, comadrejo wrote:
> On 2012-02-13 18:02:20 +0000, Mick said:
>
> On 2012-02-13 18:02:20 +0000, Mick said:
>
>> Maybe Patsy does have that kind of history, and I'm not aware of it,
>> though. What else has she done? Any threats of violence towards
>> rivals in her life? Old boyfriends talking of red flags?
>
>
>> though. What else has she done? Any threats of violence towards
>> rivals in her life? Old boyfriends talking of red flags?
>
>
> Child abuse is different than domestic violence.
>
> Patsy also had some pretty brutal cancer treatment. She had a radical
> hysterectomy for someone with her stage of ovarian cancer. Whether she
> was taking hormones or not, her emotions could all over the place,
> besides jealousy of her daughter, or anger that She had get her ovaries
> and uterus removed, while her daughter still couldn't control her
> bladder and bowel movements.
>
> To me, it is doesn't really matter if Patsy did not have a history of
> abuse or not. As much as JBR was showned to be abused, and there are two
> suspect in that abuse her mother or her father. Appearances are
> different than reality. The reality is that JBR was abused and it
> probably wasn't sexual in nature as corporal punishment for her bedwetting.
>
It's been a while since I read the stuff about the case. I'll have
>
> Patsy also had some pretty brutal cancer treatment. She had a radical
> hysterectomy for someone with her stage of ovarian cancer. Whether she
> was taking hormones or not, her emotions could all over the place,
> besides jealousy of her daughter, or anger that She had get her ovaries
> and uterus removed, while her daughter still couldn't control her
> bladder and bowel movements.
>
> To me, it is doesn't really matter if Patsy did not have a history of
> abuse or not. As much as JBR was showned to be abused, and there are two
> suspect in that abuse her mother or her father. Appearances are
> different than reality. The reality is that JBR was abused and it
> probably wasn't sexual in nature as corporal punishment for her bedwetting.
>
to reread a lot before I can even make a half-assed reply.
I don't remember seeing a case of "she/he did it" "she/he didn't do it"
since the Jeffrey MacDonald discussions going on here. Many people are
firmly in one opinion or the other, and many people think the jury is
still out.
Mick
Feb 17, 2012, 5:59:36 PM2/17/12
to
On Feb 11, 3:28 am, Grizzlie Antagonist <lloydsofhanf...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328475.000-how-dna-contaminat...
This article is certainly interesting for cases other than Jon-
Bennets. When I read about the DNA trafers from the toy to the lab
coat, I think about a sample of DNA, possibley Meredith Kercher's ,
too small to analyze completely that was found on a knife in Raffaele
Sollecito's kitchen.
Also, when someone come out with this gleeful "Guilty Guilty GUILTY!"
in the subject heading, it makes me think "Troll Troll TROLL!"
wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328475.000-how-dna-contaminat...
This article is certainly interesting for cases other than Jon-
Bennets. When I read about the DNA trafers from the toy to the lab
coat, I think about a sample of DNA, possibley Meredith Kercher's ,
too small to analyze completely that was found on a knife in Raffaele
Sollecito's kitchen.
Also, when someone come out with this gleeful "Guilty Guilty GUILTY!"
in the subject heading, it makes me think "Troll Troll TROLL!"
Chocolic
Feb 18, 2012, 1:58:40 AM2/18/12
to
"Nancy Rudins" wrote in message
news:3L6dnTt0U_lvMaPS...@giganews.com...
That is so true. I will read one story and be totally be convinced that
Patsy did it. Then I'll read another story and be totally convinced it was
an intruder. "If" it were an intruder, I am convinced it has to be
somebody they know. The way the crime was covered up didn't make any sense
and was so stupid.
A person can argue convincingly with legitimate pros and cons to both sides.
Makes for an interesting story that will sadly go on and on, and will go
down in history like the Lizzy Borden case and the kidnapping of the
Lindbergh baby. There will be historians digging up this story a hundred
years from now trying to solve it.
Chocolic
AssMonkey
Feb 18, 2012, 3:43:42 PM2/18/12
to
Part of me did it ... and afterward, Patsy and I had sexual
intercourse .. just for kicks.
intercourse .. just for kicks.
Nancy Rudins
Feb 18, 2012, 4:34:48 PM2/18/12
to
I tend to think Patsy Ramsey didn't do it. There are probably only two
people who know what happened, and one of them is the dead victim.
Poe
Feb 18, 2012, 7:24:55 PM2/18/12
to
Fall River, MA. It was a weird configuration of all these doors that
apparently were always locked from room to room. Also, at the time I
visited, a creep-o bf of mine at the time stole a sewing needle from one
of the rooms. I told him he'd be jinxed, but he ignored me, and then he
had terrible things happen for a long time. Not saying I think it, but I
wonder...
boatc...@gmail.com
Mar 23, 2014, 8:36:56 PM3/23/14
to
The police think she did it, the housekeeper thinks she did it, journalist's assigned to the case thing she did it....
All the evidence points to here... "When it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....."
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